Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi John and All, Logos, logic. These two words are close. Is this accidental or metaphysical? I opt for DQ/SQ metaphysics. How can I experience the indefinable? DQ/SQ metaphysics provides the answer through a logic of indefinable/definable reality. Definition is through DQ/SQ logos in two ways, experience and logic. Joe On 1/19/14 10:40 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: Joe, You think DQ dwells in logos? imo it dwells in mythos, as Pirsig said: 'The ancient Greeks,' I say, who were the inventors of classical reason, knew better than to use it exclusively to foretell the future. They listened to the wind and predicted the future from that. That sounds insane now. But why should the inventors of reason sound insane? John On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi John and All, Logos and logic. Imho DQ dwells in all realities. Indefinable occurs in all reality DQ/SQ. Freedom is sacred. Joe On 1/17/14 11:27 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: The best you could say is DQ is undefined, not indefinable. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Joe, You think DQ dwells in logos? imo it dwells in mythos, as Pirsig said: 'The ancient Greeks,' I say, who were the inventors of classical reason, knew better than to use it exclusively to foretell the future. They listened to the wind and predicted the future from that. That sounds insane now. But why should the inventors of reason sound insane? John On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi John and All, Logos and logic. Imho DQ dwells in all realities. Indefinable occurs in all reality DQ/SQ. Freedom is sacred. Joe On 1/17/14 11:27 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: The best you could say is DQ is undefined, not indefinable. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Joe, On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi John and All, Imho metaphysics is a structure for knowledge. Definition is required for the consideration of structure, true or false! False. If there is some structure, the consideration of it IS the definition of it. Consideration is required for definition, not the other way around. Joe: Pirsig proposes a structured DQ/SQ metaphysics. John: Well not the way you use structured. He certainly did not offer a whole a complete metaphysics. Not in only two books he didn't, which were mostly rhetorical art. He offered a critique of existing metaphysical positions and the outlines for a possible new metaphysics. To a framer, the outlines is the whole structure but I've found people want wall board and paint before they choose to dwell therein. Joe: DQ is indefinable. In what form is DQ perceived? John: In many forms, depending upon what level you're framing the question. To the social level, DQ is that mysterious moving finger which picks some people to be famous celebrities like Barak Obama. But ultimately as a concept, I'd say DQ is perceived by the blended mind - Romantic and Classic - when a scientist comes upon a truth that is so beautiful he just intuitively knows its true. When an artist creates something beautiful that makes sense to most people. I think DQ can't be defined because it can't be intellectually encapsulated but it can be perceived artistically. Thus Pirsig's dictum, you can't define it but you know what it is. Joe: A structured experience of individuality 1 becomes the basis for the realization of DQ true or false, John: True. Absolutely. Joe: not experience itself which remains indefinable DQ/SQ. Ya lost me there. John PS: On 1/14/14 11:02 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: seems to me that if something is truly indefinable, then the only way it can maintain its meaning is if you don't define it (talk about it). is exactly right. It's a if-then statement which leads to an absurdity therefore proof that nothing is truly indefinable. which I can support from another direction if you want. If definition is an evolving project then who knows where it will end up in the future? You can't say. The best you could say is DQ is undefined, not indefinable. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi John and All, Logos and logic. Imho DQ dwells in all realities. Indefinable occurs in all reality DQ/SQ. Freedom is sacred. Joe On 1/17/14 11:27 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: The best you could say is DQ is undefined, not indefinable. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Joe, On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian and All, In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. J: I'm not exactly sure what you mean by DQ/SQ metaphysics (so many people have different ideas) but in plain old english, words express reality/experience through a combination of logic and analogy/metaphor/story. Logic by itself doesn't get anywhere. Joe: DQ is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words. John: seems to me that if something is truly indefinable, then the only way it can maintain its meaning is if you don't define it (talk about it). Joe: How can a meaning of words be indefinable? John: It can't, that was my point. Joe: One size does not fit all! John: unless it's a real big size and you don't mind it fittin' baggy. Joe: Keep looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! John: How many selves are there? As many as you need. Joe: Individuality has meaning before 1 moves. John: The will to be comes before actual being. Joe: DQ/SQ hosts structure, reality. If Quality = experience then your DQ/SQ hosts reality is mere tautology but thanks anyway, John Joe Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi John and All, Imho metaphysics is a structure for knowledge. Definition is required for the consideration of structure, true or false! Pirsig proposes a structured DQ/SQ metaphysics. DQ is indefinable. In what form is DQ perceived? A structured experience of individuality 1 becomes the basis for the realization of DQ true or false, not experience itself which remains indefinable DQ/SQ. On 1/14/14 11:02 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: seems to me that if something is truly indefinable, then the only way it can maintain its meaning is if you don't define it (talk about it). Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Ian, In a DQ/SQ metaphysics which eyes are rolling? On 1/9/14 12:04 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: So Andre advises Joe to read ZMM Lila, and Joe tells me Pirsig's metaphysics is defined by words defined by logic. Roll-eyes Ian On 9 Jan 2014 19:57, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian and All, In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. DQ is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words. How can a meaning of words be indefinable? One size does not fit all! Keep looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! Individuality has meaning before 1 moves. DQ/SQ hosts structure, reality. Joe On 1/9/14 12:50 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: And your point Joe ? Ian On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian, Metaphysics, physics. Why two words? There is a point to logic. Joe On 1/7/14 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will is undefinable ffs? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan and All, What is the argument for the description of reality, DQ/SQ? The metaphysical discussion of reality? Can metaphysical reality be communicated in a statement of indefinable reality? If so how is it accepted as reality? In the statement of DQ/SQ when DQ is indefinable? Definition enables DQ and SQ in discussion. Always with the caveat I may ask foolish questions. Who controls you Dan? Joe On 1/9/14 8:57 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Does that mean Joe and others of his ilk should be banned? Not for me to say, but if it was, maybe. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan and All, Fault! I do not know that indefinable DQ is a fault. Aristotle wrote metaphysics S/O. Pirsig chose DQ/SQ reality, requiring a greater exploration in the definition for reality, in the definitive descriptive DQ/SQ approach to reality What vocabulary can be created for truth in metaphysics? Logic and common sense suggest DQ/SQ. Using an indefinable reality DQ in discussion requires a trust in the logic of an appeal to analogy and metaphor for meaning. DQ is indefinable. Definition is tweaked to include metaphor in indefinable reality. I keep my fingers crossed hoping to sufficiently explore acceptable analogies in indefinable DQ use in DQ/SQ logic! Joe On 1/10/14 9:29 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: I don't mean to pick on Joe. I like him. But for all the years we've been sharing on this list, we've never had a discussion of any consequence. Perhaps that's partly my fault. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Fair enough John, but that was mainly about the Tim / Spam situation - yes? My roll-eyes was specific to the Andre / Joe exchange - and incidentally was the most polite response I could be bothered to think of. The limits of whacky / playful / neurotic tolerance are simply pragmatic - you can only care so much, eventually someone has to wash some pots. Ian On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:06 PM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: Ian, You recently complained about the amount of garbage in your inbox when you subscribed to lilasquad. So I thought I'd cross-post my response over there, to you here and now. I won't make it a habit, but it seemed relevant to the very thing causing your eye-rolling below. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote: So Andre advises Joe to read ZMM Lila, and Joe tells me Pirsig's metaphysics is defined by words defined by logic. Roll-eyes Ian On 9 Jan 2014 19:57, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian and All, In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. DQ is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words. How can a meaning of words be indefinable? One size does not fit all! Keep looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! Individuality has meaning before 1 moves. DQ/SQ hosts structure, reality. Joe There is no doubt that Tim is bright. Nor is there any doubt that he has trouble being socially accepted - the signs are all around. And as people who are interested in the life and work of Robert M. Pirsig, we all have a certain amount of sympathy for intellectual social rejects. But no group can put up with an individual who is so out of whack that he refuses to abide by common communication norms. TCP/IP wouldn't work if acks were gibberish and likewise, human discourse requires a linguistic common ground in order to function. If the gibberish shows promise of evolving toward some system of understanding then we can be patient while it gets worked out, but if it's just getting more and more insane and hard to understand, then it's going in the wrong direction. And blurting out gibberish has a way of putting off newcomers to the list - it obviates growth which means it's violent towards any success. None of us are here solely to please ourselves. We all want better communication and understanding. Without that premise, that caring, we are doomed. It takes caring about others, to put your words and ideas into easily understood format. When that care is not taken, it shows the opposite of care - it shows disdain. Tim may hate his mother, hate his life, hate the world he lives in, but why should we all be the brunt of his anger? We didn't cause his problems. The fact that we can't solve them isn't because we don't care, it's just the way reality works. Work out YOUR OWN salvation in fear and trembling. (Phil. 2:12) Don't come bugging us about it. Maybe I'm wrong about all this. I'm willing to listen to reason. But spamming my inbox with verbal temper tantrums just pisses me off. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan, We agree enough is enough. If I may focus on your final para: The real question seems to be: is this discussion group a culture of its own? And if so, are we presuming these beliefs correspond to some sort of external (objective) reality? So far as I know, the MOQ subsumes objective and subjective reality into a framework of value. Are these values to be found in Lila and ZMM? I think there is a lot on this. The culture of this group should comprise the values we find in Lila and ZMM sure. Playful (whether worldly / knowing or naive / neurotic) social interaction is simply part of being a group - the bit we agree needs to be within limits of tolerance, caring for each other as individuals, to use John's language. But the core culture is of course schizophernic / split-personality between ZMM and Lila. (And Paul gave us a two views perspective on this.) Those on the philosophical academe agenda, the Lila half, clearly seem intent on subsuming whatever qualities MoQ has (had) into some objective subject-object dialectic. (Mark / 118 said as much recently). For me these are welcome to their own agenda, I respect their rights to do so - in an academic context. What I can't accept is this agenda subsuming the whole art rhetroic of zen and the art of MD, which only flourishes without the overly objective shackles. Half dead is not alive. Ian Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
To which I should add two points Dan, (1) Which is precisely where you were in your recent exchange with Marsha, before you both flipped your playful tolerance bits. (2) And why I say as carefully (caringly) as I can to DMB (the champion / paragon of aiming to get MoQ on a serious academic footing) - Careful Dave, you're killing the MoQ in the process. Ian On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dan, We agree enough is enough. If I may focus on your final para: The real question seems to be: is this discussion group a culture of its own? And if so, are we presuming these beliefs correspond to some sort of external (objective) reality? So far as I know, the MOQ subsumes objective and subjective reality into a framework of value. Are these values to be found in Lila and ZMM? I think there is a lot on this. The culture of this group should comprise the values we find in Lila and ZMM sure. Playful (whether worldly / knowing or naive / neurotic) social interaction is simply part of being a group - the bit we agree needs to be within limits of tolerance, caring for each other as individuals, to use John's language. But the core culture is of course schizophernic / split-personality between ZMM and Lila. (And Paul gave us a two views perspective on this.) Those on the philosophical academe agenda, the Lila half, clearly seem intent on subsuming whatever qualities MoQ has (had) into some objective subject-object dialectic. (Mark / 118 said as much recently). For me these are welcome to their own agenda, I respect their rights to do so - in an academic context. What I can't accept is this agenda subsuming the whole art rhetroic of zen and the art of MD, which only flourishes without the overly objective shackles. Half dead is not alive. Ian Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
[Ian] The real question seems to be: is this discussion group a culture of its own? [Arlo] Cultures (in this sense) are the normative, shared expectations that provide cohesion and structure, while allowing growth (chaos is not fertile soil). Like all activity systems, this (and all) discussion forums (I'd say discourse community) are shaped by 'rules', 'media/tools', and 'division of labor/expertise', and of course into this people bring their own culture of use, histories and goals. I'd add that all although these activity systems can be bounded, like any other analysis (think the various ways of dividing the motorcycle in ZMM) its more descriptive than prescriptive. [Ian] But the core culture is of course schizophernic / split-personality between ZMM and Lila. (And Paul gave us a two views perspective on this.) [Arlo] This is entirely NOT what Paul gave us. His two views (epistemologic and ontologic) are not meant to endorse any schizophrenic/split personality between ZMM and LILA. Indeed, I read it as quite the opposite. Paul concludes his paper saying It is my view that, with the two contexts combined as phases within its overall development, the MOQ enacts a major expansion and evolution of the modern Western mythos. (Turner) If you think his two views supports a core culture being of course schizophrenic, I think you're way off target. [Ian] Those on the philosophical academe agenda, the Lila half, clearly seem intent on subsuming whatever qualities MoQ has (had) into some objective subject-object dialectic. [Arlo] Pairing philosophical academe (as an agenda) with objective subject-object dialectic is demonstrating a gross misunderstanding of not just Pirsig's expanded intellectual level, and of philosophy in general (and objective subject-object dialectic is a ridiculously meaningless lexical string). On the contrary, I think scholars like Ant, DMB, Dan, David Granger, etc. far from subsuming whatever qualities [Pirsig's] MoQ has, are creating an expansive, intellectual platform that enriches not just the Academy, but all interested in Pirsig's ideas. And, I'd add it is those who seem to suggest that Pirsig's ideas are nothing but destructive (aggressively destructive, even) to intellect and reason that are not only 'subsuming' but trapping his ideas (I'm picturing Dante's frozen lake of Cocytus here) in a perpetual anti-intellectual 'agenda'. Intellectual quality is not writing posts in broken sentences, randomly combining words, and raging against artificial boogeymen (such as the dreaded university). And while intellectual quality is not the end all of human endeavor, we should approach it the same way we approach painting, or fixing a motorcycle. I see this in everything the above scholars write. [Ian] What I can't accept is this agenda subsuming the whole art rhetroic of zen and the art of MD, which only flourishes without the overly objective shackles. [Arlo] Well, as I've said before, this forum is one of many expressive/creative zen outlets for our activity. No one, I suspect, gets their entire dose of art rhetoric from this forum alone. All activity systems have shared/negotiated structures (to call them objective shackles only reveals a serious misunderstanding of community), and these structures are as much enabling as they are necessarily constraining. Indeed, as Archer, Giddens, Bourdieu and others have argued, 'structure' (or habitus) enables BY constraining, these are inseparablely symbiotic. And while, of course, structure is always in a state of negotiation, it is not just foolish but a great blunder to think that it is nothing more than 'shackles'. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Ian said to Dan: ...And why I say as carefully (caringly) as I can to DMB (the champion / paragon of aiming to get MoQ on a serious academic footing)- Careful Dave, you're killing the MoQ in the process. dmb says: I'm killing the MOQ? How so? I'd be totally amazed if you had an intelligible answer or a specific point. Ian wrote: But the core culture is of course schizophernic / split-personality between ZMM and Lila. (And Paul gave us a two views perspective on this.) dmb says: Split personality? Why do you think ZAMM and LILA are schizophrenic? I think it's much more likely that you don't understand Pirsig. I think LILA only clarifies and elaborates the thoughts in ZAMM. Ian said to Dan: Those on the philosophical academe agenda, the Lila half, clearly seem intent on subsuming whatever qualities MoQ has (had) into some objective subject-object dialectic. For me these are welcome to their own agenda, I respect their rights to do so - in an academic context. What I can't accept is this agenda subsuming the whole art rhetroic of zen and the art of MD, which only flourishes without the overly objective shackles. Half dead is not alive. dmb says: Like Arlo, I think your phrase objective subject-object dialectic is meaningless drivel. Apparently your agenda here is to express your hostility toward me personally and against intellect in general - and yet your actual reasons are extremely vague, if not totally absent. What's the deal, Ian? I had unsubscribed and so I haven't said anything at all in about two months. Seems like a strange moment to pick a fight. You have herein issued a series of fairly serious accusations; killing the MOQ, subsuming the MOQ, subsuming the whole art of MD, and clamping down with overly objective shackles. But there is no content, no specific basis, there are no ideas to support or refute, no issues to debate. Apparently this is just a hyperbolic rant in defense of your freedom to produce drivel, to write unintelligible phrases like objective subject-object dialectic. It's about Marsha's right to use contradictory phrases too, I suppose. As I see it, the greatest enemy of a discussion group like this one is the LACK of intellectual quality. Nobody ever said that we ought to adopt academic standards here, of course. Nobody ever suggested that we ought to behave like professional philosophers in this forum. And as far as I know, nobody thinks we are shooting for an objective standard or an object truth about anything. But unintelligibility is simply unacceptable in a discussion group, obviously. The misuse of terms, the use of contradictory phrases, for example, are so lacking in intellectual quality that discussion isn't really even possible. Intellectual quality is REQUIRED if we are going to exchange ideas. There is no way around that fact. Words are all we have here. Obviously. If that feels like a set of shackles to you, Ian, then get a different hobby. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Ian, On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote: Fair enough John, but that was mainly about the Tim / Spam situation - yes? Yes. My roll-eyes was specific to the Andre / Joe exchange - and incidentally was the most polite response I could be bothered to think of. Right. The application of the problem I had to your roll-eyes was one I explicitly made. The limits of whacky / playful / neurotic tolerance are simply pragmatic - you can only care so much, eventually someone has to wash some pots. Well I feel I can sense when people are sincerely engaged in discourse to clarify understanding and when they just got them an egoistic axe to grind. But as Platt always said, I could be wrong. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Ian had said: The limits of whacky / playful / neurotic tolerance are simply pragmatic - you can only care so much, eventually someone has to wash some pots. Ron observes: Appearently you don't like your Pots TOo clean.. Eh? Sent from my iPhone On Jan 10, 2014, at 4:28 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: The limits of whacky / playful / neurotic tolerance are simply pragmatic - you can only care so much, eventually someone has to wash some pots. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Dan, I did think about my diatribe in terms of Joe also because like TIm, I can't understand him. But Joe at least keeps it short. whereas Tim spews more nonsense the more he's threatened which exhibits blatant hostility. I don't get that from Joe. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Hello John, Ian, Andre, and all, Each culture presumes its beliefs correspond to some sort of external reality, but a geography of religious beliefs shows that this external reality can be just about any damn thing. Even the *facts *that people observe to confirm the truth are dependent on the culture they live in. [Lila] I take it we all (presumably) joined this list to be understood. Disagreements are one thing but goofiness is quite another. I mean, how do you answer a post like Joe's? As long as I've been here, I've never seen a cogent post offered up by him. Not once! In that context, for Andre to suggest he go back and re-read the material is a normal request. He is attempting to bring Joe into the intellectual fold. Does that mean Joe and others of his ilk should be banned? Not for me to say, but if it was, maybe. As John suggests, if a person joins the group, makes a fool of themselves, but gradually progresses into coherency, that is acceptable. But how long do we have to read continued nonsense? Believe me, I am all for giving these folk the benefit of the doubt, but if we genuinely care about making this group better, there comes a time when enough is enough. J: According to the community building model I learned, excluding a member of the community is sometimes necessary but should always be anguished over, i.e., not taken lightly. And it's best if it's a consensus rather than an arbitrary decision. Which leads me to another thought: Horse isn't banning people out of a sense of pique or personal grievance but when he see something the group wants, or needs, he carries it out. I didn't grasp that for a long time. The real question seems to be: is this discussion group a culture of its own? J: I would say it's trying to become one. Whether or not it's there is not for me to say And if so, are we presuming these beliefs correspond to some sort of external (objective) reality? J: Speaking for myself, no. The only objective thing about my beliefs is that I know they are mine. But communicating them and sharing them in the quest for harmonious understanding is a good thing. So far as I know, the MOQ subsumes objective and subjective reality into a framework of value. Are these values to be found in Lila and ZMM? Now that is a good question. Pirsig emphasized the individual to an extent that it's hard to figure out how to work out a method deriving shared values from the MoQ. In some ways that's good. Everybody here thinks for them self. But it makes it hard to quench extreme individualistic heresy and so we have to rely on the good judgement of horse. That's not a long term solution. Thanks for your thoughts on the matter, John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
John, On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:41 PM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: Dan, I did think about my diatribe in terms of Joe also because like TIm, I can't understand him. But Joe at least keeps it short. whereas Tim spews more nonsense the more he's threatened which exhibits blatant hostility. I don't get that from Joe. Dan: Granted. My point had more to do with: why waste everyone's time on meaningless crap. If a person is going to contribute, at least make the effort to do so intelligibly. If a person is some kind of genius far beyond us ordinary human beings, it becomes vitally important for them to write down to us. Make us understand. I don't mean to pick on Joe. I like him. But for all the years we've been sharing on this list, we've never had a discussion of any consequence. Perhaps that's partly my fault. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Hello John, Ian, Andre, and all, Each culture presumes its beliefs correspond to some sort of external reality, but a geography of religious beliefs shows that this external reality can be just about any damn thing. Even the *facts *that people observe to confirm the truth are dependent on the culture they live in. [Lila] I take it we all (presumably) joined this list to be understood. Disagreements are one thing but goofiness is quite another. I mean, how do you answer a post like Joe's? As long as I've been here, I've never seen a cogent post offered up by him. Not once! In that context, for Andre to suggest he go back and re-read the material is a normal request. He is attempting to bring Joe into the intellectual fold. Does that mean Joe and others of his ilk should be banned? Not for me to say, but if it was, maybe. As John suggests, if a person joins the group, makes a fool of themselves, but gradually progresses into coherency, that is acceptable. But how long do we have to read continued nonsense? Believe me, I am all for giving these folk the benefit of the doubt, but if we genuinely care about making this group better, there comes a time when enough is enough. J: According to the community building model I learned, excluding a member of the community is sometimes necessary but should always be anguished over, i.e., not taken lightly. And it's best if it's a consensus rather than an arbitrary decision. Dan: Looking back at the past couple of months, there was no substantive discourse taking place here. I think you might call that an unspoken consensus. John: Which leads me to another thought: Horse isn't banning people out of a sense of pique or personal grievance but when he see something the group wants, or needs, he carries it out. I didn't grasp that for a long time. Dan: I didn't want Marsha banned. I argued against it. Despite Ian's insinuations, it wasn't my fault that it happened. She has been playing around the edges for years and she finally got too close and fell off. This group is fortunate to have folk like David Buchanan, Arlo, and a number of others as members. I think we'd agree that their posts speak for themselves. When those voices fall silent, it is to the detriment of us all. The list is fragile. People come and go but there remains a core of contributors who are more than willing to help out new arrivals with the nuances of the MOQ. I realize I am not a teacher in any sense of the word. I lack the patience that someone such as yourself exhibits. Dan: The real question seems to be: is this discussion group a culture of its own? J: I would say it's trying to become one. Whether or not it's there is not for me to say Dan: I think it is. I also believe that's why when folk are here for years and yet still refrain from any intellectual discourse, then it is time for them to go. Cultures depend upon the members to uphold certain values. We are here to discuss the MOQ. Period. Horse allows us a great deal of leeway but when it comes down to it, we each are responsible to honor that commitment. Dan: And if so, are we presuming these beliefs correspond to some sort of external (objective) reality? J: Speaking for myself, no. The only objective thing about my beliefs is that I know they are mine. But communicating them and sharing them in the quest for harmonious understanding is a good thing. Dan: I like your answer and I agree. Except I might argue your beliefs are subjective rather than objective, but that's neither here nor there since value subsumes both. Dan: So far as I know, the MOQ subsumes objective and subjective reality into a framework of value. Are these values to be found in Lila and ZMM? John: Now that is a good question. Pirsig emphasized the individual to an extent that it's hard to figure out how to work out a method deriving shared values from the MoQ. In some ways that's good. Everybody here thinks for them self. But it makes it hard
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
And your point Joe ? Ian On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian, Metaphysics, physics. Why two words? There is a point to logic. Joe On 1/7/14 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will is undefinable ffs? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Joe to Andre and All: I have to pay the consequences of the choice. Free will makes manifest metaphysical restraints for manifestation in the DQ/SQ structure. Pardon me I am mistaken! Andre: I'm sure you are pardoned Joe. Perhaps you could start by reading the book named after the subject of this thread and then read LILA. LILA should shed more light on ZMM and Art and metaphysics and Zen and DQ/sq and a host of other patterns which in turn shed interesting lights on LILA and ZMM. From emptiness to fullness, from conditioned to unconditioned, from differentiated to undifferentiated, from manifest to unmanifest from Big Self to small self and back again. All in a nice moral package: The perpetual dance of LILA. All the best. Andre Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Ian and All, In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. DQ is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words. How can a meaning of words be indefinable? One size does not fit all! Keep looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! Individuality has meaning before 1 moves. DQ/SQ hosts structure, reality. Joe On 1/9/14 12:50 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: And your point Joe ? Ian On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian, Metaphysics, physics. Why two words? There is a point to logic. Joe On 1/7/14 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will is undefinable ffs? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
So Andre advises Joe to read ZMM Lila, and Joe tells me Pirsig's metaphysics is defined by words defined by logic. Roll-eyes Ian On 9 Jan 2014 19:57, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian and All, In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. DQ is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words. How can a meaning of words be indefinable? One size does not fit all! Keep looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! Individuality has meaning before 1 moves. DQ/SQ hosts structure, reality. Joe On 1/9/14 12:50 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: And your point Joe ? Ian On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian, Metaphysics, physics. Why two words? There is a point to logic. Joe On 1/7/14 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will is undefinable ffs? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Ian, You recently complained about the amount of garbage in your inbox when you subscribed to lilasquad. So I thought I'd cross-post my response over there, to you here and now. I won't make it a habit, but it seemed relevant to the very thing causing your eye-rolling below. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote: So Andre advises Joe to read ZMM Lila, and Joe tells me Pirsig's metaphysics is defined by words defined by logic. Roll-eyes Ian On 9 Jan 2014 19:57, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian and All, In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. DQ is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words. How can a meaning of words be indefinable? One size does not fit all! Keep looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! Individuality has meaning before 1 moves. DQ/SQ hosts structure, reality. Joe There is no doubt that Tim is bright. Nor is there any doubt that he has trouble being socially accepted - the signs are all around. And as people who are interested in the life and work of Robert M. Pirsig, we all have a certain amount of sympathy for intellectual social rejects. But no group can put up with an individual who is so out of whack that he refuses to abide by common communication norms. TCP/IP wouldn't work if acks were gibberish and likewise, human discourse requires a linguistic common ground in order to function. If the gibberish shows promise of evolving toward some system of understanding then we can be patient while it gets worked out, but if it's just getting more and more insane and hard to understand, then it's going in the wrong direction. And blurting out gibberish has a way of putting off newcomers to the list - it obviates growth which means it's violent towards any success. None of us are here solely to please ourselves. We all want better communication and understanding. Without that premise, that caring, we are doomed. It takes caring about others, to put your words and ideas into easily understood format. When that care is not taken, it shows the opposite of care - it shows disdain. Tim may hate his mother, hate his life, hate the world he lives in, but why should we all be the brunt of his anger? We didn't cause his problems. The fact that we can't solve them isn't because we don't care, it's just the way reality works. Work out YOUR OWN salvation in fear and trembling. (Phil. 2:12) Don't come bugging us about it. Maybe I'm wrong about all this. I'm willing to listen to reason. But spamming my inbox with verbal temper tantrums just pisses me off. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hello John, Ian, Andre, and all, Each culture presumes its beliefs correspond to some sort of external reality, but a geography of religious beliefs shows that this external reality can be just about any damn thing. Even the *facts *that people observe to confirm the truth are dependent on the culture they live in. [Lila] I take it we all (presumably) joined this list to be understood. Disagreements are one thing but goofiness is quite another. I mean, how do you answer a post like Joe's? As long as I've been here, I've never seen a cogent post offered up by him. Not once! In that context, for Andre to suggest he go back and re-read the material is a normal request. He is attempting to bring Joe into the intellectual fold. Does that mean Joe and others of his ilk should be banned? Not for me to say, but if it was, maybe. As John suggests, if a person joins the group, makes a fool of themselves, but gradually progresses into coherency, that is acceptable. But how long do we have to read continued nonsense? Believe me, I am all for giving these folk the benefit of the doubt, but if we genuinely care about making this group better, there comes a time when enough is enough. The real question seems to be: is this discussion group a culture of its own? And if so, are we presuming these beliefs correspond to some sort of external (objective) reality? So far as I know, the MOQ subsumes objective and subjective reality into a framework of value. Are these values to be found in Lila and ZMM? Anyway, Dan On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 5:06 PM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: Ian, You recently complained about the amount of garbage in your inbox when you subscribed to lilasquad. So I thought I'd cross-post my response over there, to you here and now. I won't make it a habit, but it seemed relevant to the very thing causing your eye-rolling below. On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 12:04 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote: So Andre advises Joe to read ZMM Lila, and Joe tells me Pirsig's metaphysics is defined by words defined by logic. Roll-eyes Ian On 9 Jan 2014 19:57, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Ian and All, In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. DQ is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words. How can a meaning of words be indefinable? One size does not fit all! Keep looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! Individuality has meaning before 1 moves. DQ/SQ hosts structure, reality. Joe There is no doubt that Tim is bright. Nor is there any doubt that he has trouble being socially accepted - the signs are all around. And as people who are interested in the life and work of Robert M. Pirsig, we all have a certain amount of sympathy for intellectual social rejects. But no group can put up with an individual who is so out of whack that he refuses to abide by common communication norms. TCP/IP wouldn't work if acks were gibberish and likewise, human discourse requires a linguistic common ground in order to function. If the gibberish shows promise of evolving toward some system of understanding then we can be patient while it gets worked out, but if it's just getting more and more insane and hard to understand, then it's going in the wrong direction. And blurting out gibberish has a way of putting off newcomers to the list - it obviates growth which means it's violent towards any success. None of us are here solely to please ourselves. We all want better communication and understanding. Without that premise, that caring, we are doomed. It takes caring about others, to put your words and ideas into easily understood format. When that care is not taken, it shows the opposite of care - it shows disdain. Tim may hate his mother, hate his life, hate the world he lives in, but why should we all be the brunt of his anger? We didn't cause his problems. The fact that we can't solve them isn't because we don't care, it's just the way reality works. Work out YOUR OWN salvation in fear and trembling. (Phil. 2:12) Don't come bugging us about it. Maybe I'm wrong about all this. I'm willing to listen to reason. But spamming my inbox with verbal temper tantrums just pisses me off. John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
7 jan 2014 kl. 21:05 skrev Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net: Hi Andre and All, DQ/SQ, indefinable/definable! A structure which supports indefinable reality must include aspects of reality which are indefinable like free-will which remains outside of definition through freedom. If I can't make a mistake in what I choose I am not held responsible for my choice. I have to pay the consequences of the choice. Free will makes manifest metaphysical restraints for manifestation in the DQ/SQ structure. Pardon me I am mistaken! Joe On 1/7/14 8:46 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Joe to Andre: DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics. Andre: Huh? Joe: Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient consciousness, freewill, upholds the awareness needed for DQ/SQ. Animals follow mechanical instinct. Andre: Sorry Joe but I have no idea what you are saying...what point(s)you are trying to make. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Joe I think your confusion starts with indefinable as indefinable, too, is a definition or as we say, a static pattern. Your pattern DQ/SQ, is more interesting as it can be used as a model, an intellectual pattern, that describes the motivational force following DQ. As an example: If the possibilities for someting is 100% and the evolution so far is 25% then the motivational force will be 4. At the end of time, when all energy in the universe is used an Enthropy is at its maximum the motivational force will be zero as DQ equates zero an evolution is 100%. In the more daily regular basis your understanding and respect for your emotions will tell you. Jan-Anders 7 jan 2014 kl. 21:05 skrev Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net: Hi Andre and All, DQ/SQ, indefinable/definable! A structure which supports indefinable reality must include aspects of reality which are indefinable like free-will which remains outside of definition through freedom. If I can't make a mistake in what I choose I am not held responsible for my choice. I have to pay the consequences of the choice. Free will makes manifest metaphysical restraints for manifestation in the DQ/SQ structure. Pardon me I am mistaken! Joe On 1/7/14 8:46 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Joe to Andre: DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics. Andre: Huh? Joe: Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient consciousness, freewill, upholds the awareness needed for DQ/SQ. Animals follow mechanical instinct. Andre: Sorry Joe but I have no idea what you are saying...what point(s)you are trying to make. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi John, Yes. Or to bastardise a Pirsig phrase: Do we need anyone to define these things for us ? Ian On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 5:42 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote: I had a thought the other day Ian about this subject. Help me to see if it fits. Terms like intellect and free will are tricky to define because they are experiences, not definitions. You experience intellect when you think in certain ways. Trying to pin that down exactly is a pain in the butt, but the experience of doing it is plain and obvious. Same goes with free will. It's not a real big problem unless you run up against somebody who thinks everything that is real is definable. On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote: When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will is undefinable ffs? Free will is as well (un)defined as any other object in this real MoQish world. Still, I guess it helps to maintain the mysterious myth if your objective is to justify interminable gain-saying argument for as long as your academic career requires it. Ian On 7 Jan 2014 20:10, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Andre and All, DQ/SQ, indefinable/definable! A structure which supports indefinable reality must include aspects of reality which are indefinable like free-will which remains outside of definition through freedom. If I can't make a mistake in what I choose I am not held responsible for my choice. I have to pay the consequences of the choice. Free will makes manifest metaphysical restraints for manifestation in the DQ/SQ structure. Pardon me I am mistaken! Joe On 1/7/14 8:46 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Joe to Andre: DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics. Andre: Huh? Joe: Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient consciousness, freewill, upholds the awareness needed for DQ/SQ. Animals follow mechanical instinct. Andre: Sorry Joe but I have no idea what you are saying...what point(s)you are trying to make. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Jan-Anders, I do not see how the conscious perception of indefinable is definition. DQ remains indefinable though knowable in the experience of an individual. Individuality is DQ consciousness, before definition. SQ is definition. Joe On 1/8/14 1:28 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson janander...@telia.com wrote: I think your confusion starts with indefinable as indefinable, too, is a definition or as we say, a static pattern. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Ian, Metaphysics, physics. Why two words? There is a point to logic. Joe On 1/7/14 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote: When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will is undefinable ffs? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Joe to Andre: DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics. Andre: Huh? Joe: Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient consciousness, freewill, upholds the awareness needed for DQ/SQ. Animals follow mechanical instinct. Andre: Sorry Joe but I have no idea what you are saying...what point(s)you are trying to make. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Andre and All, DQ/SQ, indefinable/definable! A structure which supports indefinable reality must include aspects of reality which are indefinable like free-will which remains outside of definition through freedom. If I can't make a mistake in what I choose I am not held responsible for my choice. I have to pay the consequences of the choice. Free will makes manifest metaphysical restraints for manifestation in the DQ/SQ structure. Pardon me I am mistaken! Joe On 1/7/14 8:46 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Joe to Andre: DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics. Andre: Huh? Joe: Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient consciousness, freewill, upholds the awareness needed for DQ/SQ. Animals follow mechanical instinct. Andre: Sorry Joe but I have no idea what you are saying...what point(s)you are trying to make. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will is undefinable ffs? Free will is as well (un)defined as any other object in this real MoQish world. Still, I guess it helps to maintain the mysterious myth if your objective is to justify interminable gain-saying argument for as long as your academic career requires it. Ian On 7 Jan 2014 20:10, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Andre and All, DQ/SQ, indefinable/definable! A structure which supports indefinable reality must include aspects of reality which are indefinable like free-will which remains outside of definition through freedom. If I can't make a mistake in what I choose I am not held responsible for my choice. I have to pay the consequences of the choice. Free will makes manifest metaphysical restraints for manifestation in the DQ/SQ structure. Pardon me I am mistaken! Joe On 1/7/14 8:46 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Joe to Andre: DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics. Andre: Huh? Joe: Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient consciousness, freewill, upholds the awareness needed for DQ/SQ. Animals follow mechanical instinct. Andre: Sorry Joe but I have no idea what you are saying...what point(s)you are trying to make. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
I had a thought the other day Ian about this subject. Help me to see if it fits. Terms like intellect and free will are tricky to define because they are experiences, not definitions. You experience intellect when you think in certain ways. Trying to pin that down exactly is a pain in the butt, but the experience of doing it is plain and obvious. Same goes with free will. It's not a real big problem unless you run up against somebody who thinks everything that is real is definable. On Tue, Jan 7, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote: When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will is undefinable ffs? Free will is as well (un)defined as any other object in this real MoQish world. Still, I guess it helps to maintain the mysterious myth if your objective is to justify interminable gain-saying argument for as long as your academic career requires it. Ian On 7 Jan 2014 20:10, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Andre and All, DQ/SQ, indefinable/definable! A structure which supports indefinable reality must include aspects of reality which are indefinable like free-will which remains outside of definition through freedom. If I can't make a mistake in what I choose I am not held responsible for my choice. I have to pay the consequences of the choice. Free will makes manifest metaphysical restraints for manifestation in the DQ/SQ structure. Pardon me I am mistaken! Joe On 1/7/14 8:46 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Joe to Andre: DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics. Andre: Huh? Joe: Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient consciousness, freewill, upholds the awareness needed for DQ/SQ. Animals follow mechanical instinct. Andre: Sorry Joe but I have no idea what you are saying...what point(s)you are trying to make. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Andre and All, My understanding of the reality of experience proposed by Persig contains an experience of DQ (indefinable), SQ (definable) reality. My experience of an indefinable lies in consciousness (self awareness). New experience makes it possible to describe something previously unknown. How is DQ experienced. The individual has a faculty for a conscious experience of indefinable reality. Individual consciousness is used to define reality. As history shows reality has been hither and yon. DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics. Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient consciousness, freewill, upholds the awareness needed for DQ/SQ. Animals follow mechanical instinct. Joe On 1/3/14 2:28 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: And so, as my understanding of the MoQ goes it indeed does contain the experience of reality like sentient because it is a sq pragmatic contribution. But the MoQ puts its qualifications right there...i.e. the experience is provisional, fractional and therefore subsumed within the whole not able to make any claim about the whole(Quality)or for that matter any of its parts (sq). Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
I would postulate, that the non-physical difference between man and woman is a difference in value, to meet their different needs. This subtle variation in value has trickled down, to larger personal and social differences. This difference in value, logically, would be derived from the physical differences; The protection and safety required during pregnancy, being a stand out. It seems tightly knitted, I wrote this in a hurry, to make the point that generally there must be a difference between men and women. So I ask, What are they? To what use can these or any gross generalisation of human interaction be put to? Regards, Richard On 2 Jan 2014, at 22:05, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Andre and All, I do not doubt that there is a physical differentiation between men and women. Both are sentient beings. What about angels?. What is the criteria for the differentiated aesthetic continuum? Language? Does undifferentiated aesthetic continuum contain the experience of reality like sentient? Does reality impose further differentiations for verification like alive or dead? Joe On 1/2/14 12:50 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure about this Joesince Northrop 'defines' reality as the 'undifferentiated aesthetic continuum' I doubt if there is a differentiation in experience/perspective. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Try this: Persons are supervenient on their biological and physical bodies - human, male, female, whatever. The personality is the sum of historical evolutionary development of the species, the sex, and the individual. Something like 10% genetic (species and sex), 40% individual, biological (inc sex), parental, and taught development, and 50% individual socio-cultural-peer group (inc sex) development. Women differ from men, biologically (in brain-mind ways as well as the obvious other physiological, physiochemical ways.) http://www.psybertron.org/?p=6525 (Male-Female brain-wiring) http://www.psybertron.org/?p=4923 (Human brain-mind functioning) Ian (All scare quotes intended.) On Fri, Jan 3, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Richard Skillen skillen.rich...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I would postulate, that the non-physical difference between man and woman is a difference in value, to meet their different needs. This subtle variation in value has trickled down, to larger personal and social differences. This difference in value, logically, would be derived from the physical differences; The protection and safety required during pregnancy, being a stand out. It seems tightly knitted, I wrote this in a hurry, to make the point that generally there must be a difference between men and women. So I ask, What are they? To what use can these or any gross generalisation of human interaction be put to? Regards, Richard On 2 Jan 2014, at 22:05, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Andre and All, I do not doubt that there is a physical differentiation between men and women. Both are sentient beings. What about angels?. What is the criteria for the differentiated aesthetic continuum? Language? Does undifferentiated aesthetic continuum contain the experience of reality like sentient? Does reality impose further differentiations for verification like alive or dead? Joe On 1/2/14 12:50 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure about this Joesince Northrop 'defines' reality as the 'undifferentiated aesthetic continuum' I doubt if there is a differentiation in experience/perspective. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Richard, I don't understand the meaning of gross generalization as applied to DQ/SQ terms? DQ/SQ requires precision in removing the clutter around SQ in metaphysical reality. DQ is accepted as indefinable in the common logical perception of metaphysics dq/sq MOQ. Physics and Metaphysics! Metaphysics defines the logical approach to physical reality DQ/SQ. DQ, an experience of indefinable reality, SQ, Definable experience, e.g. individual. Can a principal of duality SOM justify DQ/SQ a principle of unity MOQ? Metaphysics seems to define individuality in DQ/SQ terms. The logic for a precise category, individuality, is necessary to communicate the perception of reality. Metaphysics, not physics. Physics follows a strict logic, mathematics, to describe reality. Physics has no logic for DQ/SQ metaphysical reality. The language of physics, mathematics, cannot accept logically the metaphysical reality DQ/SQ. DQ/SQ metaphysics are a pipedream in mathematics. How about reality? Joe On 1/3/14 4:11 AM, Richard Skillen skillen.rich...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: To what use can these or any gross generalisation of human interaction be put to? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Joe to Andre: I do not doubt that there is a physical differentiation between men and women. Both are sentient beings. What about angels?. Andre: Forget about angels Joe. Joe: What is the criteria for the differentiated aesthetic continuum? Language? Andre: The MoQ is the criteria Joe. The more I think about it the more I am convinced that the MoQ as developed by Pirsig is the most advanced metaphysical representation of what is...as we are living it. In the MoQ Pirsig argues that organic differences are quantifiable and measurable...like objectively argued to be 'present'...i.e. scientifically established. However, when one moves to social and intellectual patterns of value one gets an interpretation of those differences i.e. what constitutes them, what is their make up, what is their meaning. These appear to be culturally agreed or argued upon. The beauty of the MoQ is that it appears to transcend these differences TAKEN AS A WHOLE...i.e. from the perspective of Quality (as ONE ...or rather not two). Joe: Does undifferentiated aesthetic continuum contain the experience of reality like sentient? Andre: Yes. Quality has/contains LILA. Quality contains and thereby manifests any and all experiences...even those of the non sentient (if one accepts the IDEA of the non sentient existence (and therefore experience) before sentience.And the MoQ does. Quality is the ground from which all experiences manifest. But read the passage from ZMM page 75: 'From all this awareness (i.e. the ground/Quality) we must select, and what we select and call consciousness (sq) is never the same as the awareness (Quality) because the process of selection( i.e. going from DQ to sq) mutates it. We take a handful of sand from the endless landscape of awareness around us and call that handful of sand the world. 'Once we have the handful of sand, the world of which we are conscious,a process of discrimination goes to work on it'. And therefore the sentient can never claim his/her experience as representing 'reality'. And so, as my understanding of the MoQ goes it indeed does contain the experience of reality like sentient because it is a sq pragmatic contribution. But the MoQ puts its qualifications right there...i.e. the experience is provisional, fractional and therefore subsumed within the whole not able to make any claim about the whole(Quality)or for that matter any of its parts (sq). Hope this helps Joe. André Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Joe: IMHO Man/Woman experience indefinable reality in differing perspectives. Andre: Not sure about this Joesince Northrop 'defines' reality as the 'undifferentiated aesthetic continuum' I doubt if there is a differentiation in experience/perspective. Not even sure if one can speak of 'man' and 'woman' either... but I could be wrong. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Andre and All, I do not doubt that there is a physical differentiation between men and women. Both are sentient beings. What about angels?. What is the criteria for the differentiated aesthetic continuum? Language? Does undifferentiated aesthetic continuum contain the experience of reality like sentient? Does reality impose further differentiations for verification like alive or dead? Joe On 1/2/14 12:50 PM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure about this Joesince Northrop 'defines' reality as the 'undifferentiated aesthetic continuum' I doubt if there is a differentiation in experience/perspective. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Ron, You're a talented artist. Have you found a way to keep 'making art' in your life? Marsha On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:09 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Hokey pokey code of art: Left foot in Left foot out Left foot in Shake it all about Or The dirty Sanchez code of art: In Out Swish left Swish right ? So few appreciate art Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 4:08 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: wabi-sabi code of art: a giant firefly, that way, this way, that way, this --- and it passes by. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
By realizing life is making art I make art in every moment. If by art you mean the discipline Of drawing and painting, I have Taken on the role of mentor Often when art is perceived As a craft only pertaining to Specific disciplines or limited To certain criteria it tends to Alienate other people in our Lives promoting a bias leading To an elitist point of view. The lonely artist leads to A point of view where you tend Not to recognize others as moral Equals. Missing out on a lot of other Moments of beauty. Left foot in Left foot out That's what it's all about Sent from my iPhone On Jan 1, 2014, at 3:40 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Ron, You're a talented artist. Have you found a way to keep 'making art' in your life? Marsha On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:09 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote: Hokey pokey code of art: Left foot in Left foot out Left foot in Shake it all about Or The dirty Sanchez code of art: In Out Swish left Swish right ? So few appreciate art Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 4:08 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: wabi-sabi code of art: a giant firefly, that way, this way, that way, this --- and it passes by. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan and All, One size individuality does not fit all. IMHO Man/Woman experience indefinable reality in differing perspectives. One divided by one becomes one divided, open to new possibilities like babies. Joe On 12/31/13 2:36 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: You're right... discussing anything with her is a waste of time. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Dan said to Marsha: Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Obviously having a discussion here is a waste of time. Goodbye. Marsha replied: Goodbye Dan. Andre: Congratulations Marsha. You've done it again. Pissing posters off with your derisory and contemptible attitude towards what is written...often thoughtful and intelligent responses by posters who take the MoQ seriously...and who take your responses seriously...but then (pressed in a corner due to your confusion about many fundamental matters concerning the MoQ) the eel comes out again. The only thing I would have an argument with regarding Dan's response is that a discussion with MARSHA is a waste of time. It's really one big soliloquize she's putting on here. There is nothing intelligent there and, as said, she treats any and every sq pattern with derision and contempt (all is 'hypothetical' and 'static ever changing') making a mockery of Pirsig's MoQ. The sooner she leaves this Discuss the better. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Andre I've always given Marsha the benefit of the doubt, not because she's a woman but because I thought she might have something of value to add to the discussion. I was wrong. You're right... discussing anything with her is a waste of time. Rather than offering anything solid pertaining to the MOQ, she continually resorts to the same tired crap. I don't know why she is here other than to post poems and piss people off. It is clear she is not interested in discussing anything pertaining to the MOQ or any of Robert Pirsig's work. Still, what I was hoping to do was perhaps kick start the discussion with others who are interested in debating the finer points of the MOQ. It seems like for the last couple months there has been nothing along those lines and I am as much to blame as the next person. Failing that, then I suppose we are looking at the end of the discussion group. So... how about a nice intelligent discussion? Thank you, Dan On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote: Dan said to Marsha: Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Obviously having a discussion here is a waste of time. Goodbye. Marsha replied: Goodbye Dan. Andre: Congratulations Marsha. You've done it again. Pissing posters off with your derisory and contemptible attitude towards what is written...often thoughtful and intelligent responses by posters who take the MoQ seriously...and who take your responses seriously...but then (pressed in a corner due to your confusion about many fundamental matters concerning the MoQ) the eel comes out again. The only thing I would have an argument with regarding Dan's response is that a discussion with MARSHA is a waste of time. It's really one big soliloquize she's putting on here. There is nothing intelligent there and, as said, she treats any and every sq pattern with derision and contempt (all is 'hypothetical' and 'static ever changing') making a mockery of Pirsig's MoQ. The sooner she leaves this Discuss the better. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hokey pokey code of art: Left foot in Left foot out Left foot in Shake it all about Or The dirty Sanchez code of art: In Out Swish left Swish right ? So few appreciate art Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 4:08 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: wabi-sabi code of art: a giant firefly, that way, this way, that way, this --- and it passes by. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Bumper sticker sometimes seen: What if the hokey pokey Really is what it's all about? MRB On 12/31/2013 5:09 PM, Ron Kulp wrote: Hokey pokey code of art: Left foot in Left foot out Left foot in Shake it all about Or The dirty Sanchez code of art: In Out Swish left Swish right ? So few appreciate art Sent from my iPhone On Dec 29, 2013, at 4:08 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: wabi-sabi code of art: a giant firefly, that way, this way, that way, this --- and it passes by. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan and All, Imho DQ/SQ metaphysics, DQ is indefinable like emotional experience. I experience Love though I cannot define it conceptually, only emotionally. Joe On 12/28/13 4:58 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Definition, meaning, ideas... they all seem to correlate to intellectual patterns, wouldn't you say? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
wabi-sabi code of art: a giant firefly, that way, this way, that way, this --- and it passes by. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan, On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture. Yes. Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context. Are you equating 'meaning' and intellectual patterns? If we used binary code in a cultural setting then the above [binary code] represents writing. To me, it doesn't. It's just a bunch of 1s and 0s. Is that your story and you're sticking to it? Those ones and zeros have meaning for me because they are a translation of a particular sentence I used as input into a binary translator. Groups of any sequence of eight 1s and 0s _suggest_ meaning to me, even if I don't know that meaning, because I have a distant recollection (experience) of their having meaning. That's my pattern (social or intellectual) and I am hypothetically sticking to it. Taking a book and making a work of art from it changes the intellectual value, wouldn't you say? Yes the context has changed, but I am not sure how you are understanding intellectual value? Gosh, I'm not sure computers still use those ones zeros as on off switches, but I do know that this particular series can be translated into a sentence with meaning. It's sort of like a kidnapper cutting letters from ads and pasting them together to form a ransom note. The meaning is there but it has been changed from its original intent. From my particular point-of-view, the context is always changing, sometimes changing more radically than others. It's all grist for the art mill. Marsha On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:58 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
01011001 0110 01110101 00101100 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 0111 01101110 0010 01101001 01100100 01101001 0110 01110100 00101110 Sent from my iPhone On Dec 28, 2013, at 4:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture. Yes. Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context. Are you equating 'meaning' and intellectual patterns? If we used binary code in a cultural setting then the above [binary code] represents writing. To me, it doesn't. It's just a bunch of 1s and 0s. Is that your story and you're sticking to it? Those ones and zeros have meaning for me because they are a translation of a particular sentence I used as input into a binary translator. Groups of any sequence of eight 1s and 0s _suggest_ meaning to me, even if I don't know that meaning, because I have a distant recollection (experience) of their having meaning. That's my pattern (social or intellectual) and I am hypothetically sticking to it. Taking a book and making a work of art from it changes the intellectual value, wouldn't you say? Yes the context has changed, but I am not sure how you are understanding intellectual value? Gosh, I'm not sure computers still use those ones zeros as on off switches, but I do know that this particular series can be translated into a sentence with meaning. It's sort of like a kidnapper cutting letters from ads and pasting them together to form a ransom note. The meaning is there but it has been changed from its original intent. From my particular point-of-view, the context is always changing, sometimes changing more radically than others. It's all grist for the art mill. Marsha On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:58 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 3:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture. Yes. Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context. Are you equating 'meaning' and intellectual patterns? Definition, meaning, ideas... they all seem to correlate to intellectual patterns, wouldn't you say? If we used binary code in a cultural setting then the above [binary code] represents writing. To me, it doesn't. It's just a bunch of 1s and 0s. Is that your story and you're sticking to it? It isn't a story. Those ones and zeros have meaning for me because they are a translation of a particular sentence I used as input into a binary translator. Groups of any sequence of eight 1s and 0s _suggest_ meaning to me, even if I don't know that meaning, because I have a distant recollection (experience) of their having meaning. That's my pattern (social or intellectual) and I am hypothetically sticking to it. The movement of birds and ants _suggest_ meaning to me too even though I don't know that meaning. You seem to be arguing for nothing more than the sake of argument. Taking a book and making a work of art from it changes the intellectual value, wouldn't you say? Yes the context has changed, but I am not sure how you are understanding intellectual value? Gosh, I'm not sure computers still use those ones zeros as on off switches, but I do know that this particular series can be translated into a sentence with meaning. Isn't that what I said? It's sort of like a kidnapper cutting letters from ads and pasting them together to form a ransom note. The meaning is there but it has been changed from its original intent. From my particular point-of-view, the context is always changing, sometimes changing more radically than others. It's all grist for the art mill. Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Obviously having a discussion here is a waste of time. Goodbye. Marsha On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:58 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Goodbye Dan. On Dec 28, 2013, at 7:58 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 3:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture. Yes. Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context. Are you equating 'meaning' and intellectual patterns? Definition, meaning, ideas... they all seem to correlate to intellectual patterns, wouldn't you say? If we used binary code in a cultural setting then the above [binary code] represents writing. To me, it doesn't. It's just a bunch of 1s and 0s. Is that your story and you're sticking to it? It isn't a story. Those ones and zeros have meaning for me because they are a translation of a particular sentence I used as input into a binary translator. Groups of any sequence of eight 1s and 0s _suggest_ meaning to me, even if I don't know that meaning, because I have a distant recollection (experience) of their having meaning. That's my pattern (social or intellectual) and I am hypothetically sticking to it. The movement of birds and ants _suggest_ meaning to me too even though I don't know that meaning. You seem to be arguing for nothing more than the sake of argument. Taking a book and making a work of art from it changes the intellectual value, wouldn't you say? Yes the context has changed, but I am not sure how you are understanding intellectual value? Gosh, I'm not sure computers still use those ones zeros as on off switches, but I do know that this particular series can be translated into a sentence with meaning. Isn't that what I said? It's sort of like a kidnapper cutting letters from ads and pasting them together to form a ransom note. The meaning is there but it has been changed from its original intent. From my particular point-of-view, the context is always changing, sometimes changing more radically than others. It's all grist for the art mill. Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Obviously having a discussion here is a waste of time. Goodbye. Marsha On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:58 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
She seems like an interesting woman who led a full life though her writing style is not quite my cup of tea. Doing a bit of research I see William James was one of her teachers and mentors. He encouraged her writings though apparently they were never quite on the same page, so to speak. Thank you for the reference. I would say words always have meaning, otherwise they're gibberish. Now, whether or not they convey the intended meaning is questionable if taken out of context. Also, I think the MOQ would say we are continually defining not only words but all static patterns that arise from experience. You may want to define 'writing.' I for one am not particularly captivated by the German language though I do from time to time use Google Translator to discover what someone is trying to say to me. On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 8:20 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Sound sight and sense around sound by sight with sense around by with sound sight sense will apologise truthfully. Com to allowing. As often as not as often as not they as often as not were to be going away. A plan that is made and causes it to be that if they were after all not behaving as if they could by an indifference to an extravagantly prepared advantage which is by nearly their importance advising them to be more than as well as if by the time that it is to be comparatively obtained in an intentional adjustment of the renewal and bestowal of whether by the chance of their adjoining they may be colliding without an impatience which can be changed to an addition of their bestowal which is in a way might it be shadowed as because of this which is an objection to their having it can be an interval of it just the same which is preferably not only a reason because they may be that is if it could be to notice that having looked to see. It should never be an exact copy. What is the difference between starting and starting when may they like it looking part of the time as if very much their hope that they will be without in the meantime furnishing it as an advantage which it is to the more delighted explanation of their being very ready to send very many apples. (Stein, Gertrude, 'How to Write') Marsha: Very dynamic, don't you think? Fitting of the code of art? Too dynamic? This is from the chapter titled 'A Vocabulary of Thinking'. Ms. Stein was a very clever intellectual. Some would say far far more clever than Joyce, but, alas, a woman. Her writing was extremely influential on the Beat writers. I am wondering how these torn pages of words will be experienced in a collage. Do words, without meaning, affect the viewer? Are we human beings so captivated by writing that we will be compelled to try to discover a meaning? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha On Dec 27, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: She seems like an interesting woman who led a full life though her writing style is not quite my cup of tea. Doing a bit of research I see William James was one of her teachers and mentors. He encouraged her writings though apparently they were never quite on the same page, so to speak. Thank you for the reference. I would say words always have meaning, otherwise they're gibberish. Now, whether or not they convey the intended meaning is questionable if taken out of context. Also, I think the MOQ would say we are continually defining not only words but all static patterns that arise from experience. You may want to define 'writing.' I for one am not particularly captivated by the German language though I do from time to time use Google Translator to discover what someone is trying to say to me. On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 8:20 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Sound sight and sense around sound by sight with sense around by with sound sight sense will apologise truthfully. Com to allowing. As often as not as often as not they as often as not were to be going away. A plan that is made and causes it to be that if they were after all not behaving as if they could by an indifference to an extravagantly prepared advantage which is by nearly their importance advising them to be more than as well as if by the time that it is to be comparatively obtained in an intentional adjustment of the renewal and bestowal of whether by the chance of their adjoining they may be colliding without an impatience which can be changed to an addition of their bestowal which is in a way might it be shadowed as because of this which is an objection to their having it can be an interval of it just the same which is preferably not only a reason because they may be that is if it could be to notice that having looked to see. It should never be an exact copy. What is the difference between starting and starting when may they like it looking part of the time as if very much their hope that they will be without in the meantime furnishing it as an advantage which it is to the more delighted explanation of their being very ready to send very many apples. (Stein, Gertrude, 'How to Write') Marsha: Very dynamic, don't you think? Fitting of the code of art? Too dynamic? This is from the chapter titled 'A Vocabulary of Thinking'. Ms. Stein was a very clever intellectual. Some would say far far more clever than Joyce, but, alas, a woman. Her writing was extremely influential on the Beat writers. I am wondering how these torn pages of words will be experienced in a collage. Do words, without meaning, affect the viewer? Are we human beings so captivated by writing that we will be compelled to try to discover a meaning? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture. Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context. If we used binary code in a cultural setting then the above represents writing. To me, it doesn't. It's just a bunch of 1s and 0s. Taking a book and making a work of art from it changes the intellectual value, wouldn't you say? It's sort of like a kidnapper cutting letters from ads and pasting them together to form a ransom note. The meaning is there but it has been changed from its original intent. On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 4:58 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, 01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011 0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001 0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010 01101110 0110 01110100 0010 01100011 0111 0111 01110100 01101001 01110110 0111 01110100 01100101 01100100 0010 01100010 0001 0010 01110100 01101000 01100101 0010 01000111 01100101 01110010 01101101 0111 01101110 0010 01101100 0111 01101110 01100111 01110101 0111 01100111 01100101 00101110 Yes, I was aware she was a student of William James. That makes a nice story, doesn't it? I was more wondering what affect words, sentences, paragraphs, etc. have on human beings if they do not have access to their meaning like in a collage. Will they try to discover the meaning? Does the above represent writing? Marsha On Dec 27, 2013, at 5:32 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: She seems like an interesting woman who led a full life though her writing style is not quite my cup of tea. Doing a bit of research I see William James was one of her teachers and mentors. He encouraged her writings though apparently they were never quite on the same page, so to speak. Thank you for the reference. I would say words always have meaning, otherwise they're gibberish. Now, whether or not they convey the intended meaning is questionable if taken out of context. Also, I think the MOQ would say we are continually defining not only words but all static patterns that arise from experience. You may want to define 'writing.' I for one am not particularly captivated by the German language though I do from time to time use Google Translator to discover what someone is trying to say to me. On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 8:20 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Sound sight and sense around sound by sight with sense around by with sound sight sense will apologise truthfully. Com to allowing. As often as not as often as not they as often as not were to be going away. A plan that is made and causes it to be that if they were after all not behaving as if they could by an indifference to an extravagantly prepared advantage which is by nearly their importance advising them to be more than as well as if by the time that it is to be comparatively obtained in an intentional adjustment of the renewal and bestowal of whether by the chance of their adjoining they may be colliding without an impatience which can be changed to an addition of their bestowal which is in a way might it be shadowed as because of this which is an objection to their having it can be an interval of it just the same which is preferably not only a reason because they may be that is if it could be to notice that having looked to see. It should never be an exact copy. What is the difference between starting and starting when may they like it looking part of the time as if very much their hope that they will be without in the meantime furnishing it as an advantage which it is to the more delighted explanation of their being very ready to send very many apples. (Stein, Gertrude, 'How to Write') Marsha: Very dynamic, don't you think? Fitting of the code of art? Too dynamic? This is from the chapter titled 'A Vocabulary of Thinking'. Ms. Stein was a very clever intellectual. Some would say far far more clever than Joyce, but, alas, a woman. Her writing was extremely influential on the Beat writers. I am wondering how these torn pages of words will be experienced in a collage. Do words, without meaning, affect the viewer? Are we human beings so captivated by writing that we will be compelled to try to discover a meaning? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Greetings, Sound sight and sense around sound by sight with sense around by with sound sight sense will apologise truthfully. Com to allowing. As often as not as often as not they as often as not were to be going away. A plan that is made and causes it to be that if they were after all not behaving as if they could by an indifference to an extravagantly prepared advantage which is by nearly their importance advising them to be more than as well as if by the time that it is to be comparatively obtained in an intentional adjustment of the renewal and bestowal of whether by the chance of their adjoining they may be colliding without an impatience which can be changed to an addition of their bestowal which is in a way might it be shadowed as because of this which is an objection to their having it can be an interval of it just the same which is preferably not only a reason because they may be that is if it could be to notice that having looked to see. It should never be an exact copy. What is the difference between starting and starting when may they like it looking part of the time as if very much their hope that they will be without in the meantime furnishing it as an advantage which it is to the more delighted explanation of their being very ready to send very many apples. (Stein, Gertrude, 'How to Write') Marsha: Very dynamic, don't you think? Fitting of the code of art? Too dynamic? This is from the chapter titled 'A Vocabulary of Thinking'. Ms. Stein was a very clever intellectual. Some would say far far more clever than Joyce, but, alas, a woman. Her writing was extremely influential on the Beat writers. I am wondering how these torn pages of words will be experienced in a collage. Do words, without meaning, affect the viewer? Are we human beings so captivated by writing that we will be compelled to try to discover a meaning? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi MarshaV and All, IMHO the proper way to spell compelling is DQ/SQ. There is always something missing in a defined statement, indefinable DQ. Joe On 12/26/13 6:20 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Are we human beings so captivated by writing that we will be compelled to try to discover a meaning? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan and All, IMHO Chapter breaks are whimsical and outside the definition DQ/SQ. Defining the indefinable in DQ/SQ metaphysics uses consciousness as the arbiter of indefinable reality, DQ. DQ remains outside definition in a reality of direct experience. Joe On 12/22/13 3:48 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Of course the author has to take care in doing so lest they confuse the reader... chapter breaks are best in my opinion. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Doesn't Phaedrus tell Chris the same thing late in ZMM? `Were you really insane?'' Why should he ask that? No! Astonishment hits. But Chris's eyes sparkle. `Ì knew it,'' he says. [ZMM] Lila's Child came about on account of my love for writing. Robert Pirsig inspired me years ago when I read ZMM while his assistance with LC made me realize what I was missing by not writing. I wish I could say I had teachers who inspired me as well. I cannot. I was a poor student. The closest any of them ever got to praising my writings was to accuse me of plagiarism. It upset me at the time but now I look back and say: wow. They honestly thought my writing was that good that I must have copied it from somewhere. What about you? What inspired you to start painting? Did you always fancy doing it? Or was there a defining moment in your life when you knew you were meant to paint? On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 10:30 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, From my very limited experience, I'd say that the pre-static (before fear and thinking) response is always to give 150%, but that is not very advantageous for the survival of the self in dangerous situations. I did later notice that from the intensity of the incident, all the thoughts that had been floating through my mind that morning vacated. Gone! It made me laugh at myself! I will get the details concerning the driver some time this weekend, but from what I could see, they were very fortunate to have survived. Outside the line is where the best stuff happens. I recently reread RMP's introduction to the twenty-fifth anniversary edition of ZAMM. He said Phaedrus was never insane. Outside the line is where all the creative stuff happens, but it is extremely dangerous. It surprised me that both Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg did a stint in a hospital for schizophrenia. Tough times, indeed! I had my moments of insanity, but love and responsibility to my children always kept me in check. But now I feel free to fly, and do so in my studio. Not as dangerous as flying over an un-netted sea like Icarus. My studio is my favorite place to be. Do you think that your sister being a writer offered you permission to go back to that childhood longing to be a writer. And there was 'LILA's Child', that must have stirred the juices. Did you get assistance from others? I had helpers get me back to making art, and I am grateful to them. Marsha On Dec 21, 2013, at 2:44 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Not only does she draw outside the lines, my sister writes too. It's sort of funny that not only are we both artists, but we're both the black sheep of the family... never living up to our purported potential in the eyes of our parents or siblings. She moved off ages ago when she was just a teenager and I followed suit shortly thereafter. I never made it as far as she did, however... I only got about three blocks from home while she made it across the country. My father only sneered when he asked what I wanted to do when I grew up and I told him: to write. For a long time I tried to please him... perhaps not consciously but nevertheless I found myself attempting to follow his path through life. Only where he never failed to succeed, I never failed to fail. A short time before he passed away he told me what a disappointment I'd been to him, maybe not in so many words but I got the gist of what he was saying. I have no doubt that he always did his best for me, but we were not only separated by generation but by spirit. He believed in hard work. He had fought a war and came home a winner. He had learned to hate the enemy so thoroughly that it still simmered fifty years after the fact. The stories he told us when we were children inspired me to want to be a Marine like he was. When I grew older I realized my nature wasn't suited for such a regimented life. He died a rich man but all his money couldn't buy him another minute on this good earth. I never got to talk to my father about it but I think the MOQ would say that money is a form of social quality. It has nothing to do with biological patterns other than to use them to its own advantage. The rich feed off the poor all the while rationalizing that they are the chosen few and so deserve more than anyone else. Money lends a sort of useless succor to our lives. It fools us into believing if we only have enough of it, we will be the comfortable and good citizens who drop a few dollars into the Salvation Army bucket at Christmas time. If we happen to see a street person approaching us, however, we become fearful and cross the street to avoid the confrontation of seeing the want arising in their eyes. Hard work only tires me out so I avoid it whenever possible. I work enough to get by and then I stop. Today, a homeless man stopped by the church where I work. The secretary and the priest turned
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Yes, but it feels different to have the character from inside the novel speak the words and the author making a statement about the work in relation to his own experience as one aspect of that split personality. But not to worry, I understand it is all story. Yes, from a grownup Dan's point of view, the accusation of plagiarism might seem flattering, but it was not encouraging to a youngster. Yet here you are writing novels. Doubt if it could have been any other way. I didn't start painting seriously until 1998 after a summer in Italy, but I loved it all. I took 4 years of classical guitar lessons. When that didn't work out, I quickly switched to art: book arts, collaging, printmaking. All started after the age of thirty and all very satisfying. In 1998 I left Corporate-IT position to learn to paint. You asked about teachers, and I'll say there were no specific art teachers, but there were important people who taught life lessons. Important in the list is RMP because of his explanation of gumption traps. Having them explained could be equated to the naming of Rumpelstiltskin. What a boon! But there were many others, especially my second husband who was a wonderful classical guitar player. On Dec 22, 2013, at 3:16 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't Phaedrus tell Chris the same thing late in ZMM? `Were you really insane?'' Why should he ask that? No! Astonishment hits. But Chris's eyes sparkle. `Ì knew it,'' he says. [ZMM] Lila's Child came about on account of my love for writing. Robert Pirsig inspired me years ago when I read ZMM while his assistance with LC made me realize what I was missing by not writing. I wish I could say I had teachers who inspired me as well. I cannot. I was a poor student. The closest any of them ever got to praising my writings was to accuse me of plagiarism. It upset me at the time but now I look back and say: wow. They honestly thought my writing was that good that I must have copied it from somewhere. What about you? What inspired you to start painting? Did you always fancy doing it? Or was there a defining moment in your life when you knew you were meant to paint? On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 10:30 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, From my very limited experience, I'd say that the pre-static (before fear and thinking) response is always to give 150%, but that is not very advantageous for the survival of the self in dangerous situations. I did later notice that from the intensity of the incident, all the thoughts that had been floating through my mind that morning vacated. Gone! It made me laugh at myself! I will get the details concerning the driver some time this weekend, but from what I could see, they were very fortunate to have survived. Outside the line is where the best stuff happens. I recently reread RMP's introduction to the twenty-fifth anniversary edition of ZAMM. He said Phaedrus was never insane. Outside the line is where all the creative stuff happens, but it is extremely dangerous. It surprised me that both Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg did a stint in a hospital for schizophrenia. Tough times, indeed! I had my moments of insanity, but love and responsibility to my children always kept me in check. But now I feel free to fly, and do so in my studio. Not as dangerous as flying over an un-netted sea like Icarus. My studio is my favorite place to be. Do you think that your sister being a writer offered you permission to go back to that childhood longing to be a writer. And there was 'LILA's Child', that must have stirred the juices. Did you get assistance from others? I had helpers get me back to making art, and I am grateful to them. Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
I just re-read the intro to the 25th edition and from what I gather, Robert Pirsig the author is using Phaedrus to say he (the narrator?) was never insane. We can see that in ZMM from the quote I offered where the dialogue between Chris and 'Phaedrus' only has quotes around the words of Chris. He uses the same quote, in fact. It's also interesting that he mentions reading Henry James' The Turn of the Screw and how he mistook the villainous for the heroine of the story. Like he says, I too think that story accentuates both the strength and weakness of the first person narrative and why so many authors fail at it. It is much easier writing from the third person point of view which is perhaps why that method is the predominate way of writing these days. First person is much more intimate yet the author (and the reader) is trapped inside the character. One way of overcoming that is to write from the point of view of different characters as he does in Lila. Of course the author has to take care in doing so lest they confuse the reader... chapter breaks are best in my opinion. Anyway, interesting stuff... On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 10:29 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Yes, but it feels different to have the character from inside the novel speak the words and the author making a statement about the work in relation to his own experience as one aspect of that split personality. But not to worry, I understand it is all story. Yes, from a grownup Dan's point of view, the accusation of plagiarism might seem flattering, but it was not encouraging to a youngster. Yet here you are writing novels. Doubt if it could have been any other way. I didn't start painting seriously until 1998 after a summer in Italy, but I loved it all. I took 4 years of classical guitar lessons. When that didn't work out, I quickly switched to art: book arts, collaging, printmaking. All started after the age of thirty and all very satisfying. In 1998 I left Corporate-IT position to learn to paint. You asked about teachers, and I'll say there were no specific art teachers, but there were important people who taught life lessons. Important in the list is RMP because of his explanation of gumption traps. Having them explained could be equated to the naming of Rumpelstiltskin. What a boon! But there were many others, especially my second husband who was a wonderful classical guitar player. On Dec 22, 2013, at 3:16 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't Phaedrus tell Chris the same thing late in ZMM? `Were you really insane?'' Why should he ask that? No! Astonishment hits. But Chris's eyes sparkle. `Ì knew it,'' he says. [ZMM] Lila's Child came about on account of my love for writing. Robert Pirsig inspired me years ago when I read ZMM while his assistance with LC made me realize what I was missing by not writing. I wish I could say I had teachers who inspired me as well. I cannot. I was a poor student. The closest any of them ever got to praising my writings was to accuse me of plagiarism. It upset me at the time but now I look back and say: wow. They honestly thought my writing was that good that I must have copied it from somewhere. What about you? What inspired you to start painting? Did you always fancy doing it? Or was there a defining moment in your life when you knew you were meant to paint? On Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 10:30 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, From my very limited experience, I'd say that the pre-static (before fear and thinking) response is always to give 150%, but that is not very advantageous for the survival of the self in dangerous situations. I did later notice that from the intensity of the incident, all the thoughts that had been floating through my mind that morning vacated. Gone! It made me laugh at myself! I will get the details concerning the driver some time this weekend, but from what I could see, they were very fortunate to have survived. Outside the line is where the best stuff happens. I recently reread RMP's introduction to the twenty-fifth anniversary edition of ZAMM. He said Phaedrus was never insane. Outside the line is where all the creative stuff happens, but it is extremely dangerous. It surprised me that both Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg did a stint in a hospital for schizophrenia. Tough times, indeed! I had my moments of insanity, but love and responsibility to my children always kept me in check. But now I feel free to fly, and do so in my studio. Not as dangerous as flying over an un-netted sea like Icarus. My studio is my favorite place to be. Do you think that your sister being a writer offered you permission to go back to that childhood longing to be a writer. And there was 'LILA's Child', that must have stirred the juices. Did you get assistance from others? I had helpers get me back to making art,
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Yes, it is interesting. Very! Sensitive, introverted, philosophically-minded intellectuals may be more aware of the conflict between intellectual and social values, and it can initially be quite a shock. But eventually that shock may subside and ... mountains are once more mountains and waters are waters. The first book I've ripped pages from for my art journaling is 'How To Write' by Gertrude Stein. How well will the words and sentence represent a text that is not meant to be read? Drawing outside the line is about confusion, wouldn't you say? At this point, the project is total confusion. What will happen next? What do suppose others do? On Dec 22, 2013, at 6:48 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: I just re-read the intro to the 25th edition and from what I gather, Robert Pirsig the author is using Phaedrus to say he (the narrator?) was never insane. We can see that in ZMM from the quote I offered where the dialogue between Chris and 'Phaedrus' only has quotes around the words of Chris. He uses the same quote, in fact. It's also interesting that he mentions reading Henry James' The Turn of the Screw and how he mistook the villainous for the heroine of the story. Like he says, I too think that story accentuates both the strength and weakness of the first person narrative and why so many authors fail at it. It is much easier writing from the third person point of view which is perhaps why that method is the predominate way of writing these days. First person is much more intimate yet the author (and the reader) is trapped inside the character. One way of overcoming that is to write from the point of view of different characters as he does in Lila. Of course the author has to take care in doing so lest they confuse the reader... chapter breaks are best in my opinion. Anyway, interesting stuff... On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 10:29 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Yes, but it feels different to have the character from inside the novel speak the words and the author making a statement about the work in relation to his own experience as one aspect of that split personality. But not to worry, I understand it is all story. Yes, from a grownup Dan's point of view, the accusation of plagiarism might seem flattering, but it was not encouraging to a youngster. Yet here you are writing novels. Doubt if it could have been any other way. I didn't start painting seriously until 1998 after a summer in Italy, but I loved it all. I took 4 years of classical guitar lessons. When that didn't work out, I quickly switched to art: book arts, collaging, printmaking. All started after the age of thirty and all very satisfying. In 1998 I left Corporate-IT position to learn to paint. You asked about teachers, and I'll say there were no specific art teachers, but there were important people who taught life lessons. Important in the list is RMP because of his explanation of gumption traps. Having them explained could be equated to the naming of Rumpelstiltskin. What a boon! But there were many others, especially my second husband who was a wonderful classical guitar player. snip... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Not only does she draw outside the lines, my sister writes too. It's sort of funny that not only are we both artists, but we're both the black sheep of the family... never living up to our purported potential in the eyes of our parents or siblings. She moved off ages ago when she was just a teenager and I followed suit shortly thereafter. I never made it as far as she did, however... I only got about three blocks from home while she made it across the country. My father only sneered when he asked what I wanted to do when I grew up and I told him: to write. For a long time I tried to please him... perhaps not consciously but nevertheless I found myself attempting to follow his path through life. Only where he never failed to succeed, I never failed to fail. A short time before he passed away he told me what a disappointment I'd been to him, maybe not in so many words but I got the gist of what he was saying. I have no doubt that he always did his best for me, but we were not only separated by generation but by spirit. He believed in hard work. He had fought a war and came home a winner. He had learned to hate the enemy so thoroughly that it still simmered fifty years after the fact. The stories he told us when we were children inspired me to want to be a Marine like he was. When I grew older I realized my nature wasn't suited for such a regimented life. He died a rich man but all his money couldn't buy him another minute on this good earth. I never got to talk to my father about it but I think the MOQ would say that money is a form of social quality. It has nothing to do with biological patterns other than to use them to its own advantage. The rich feed off the poor all the while rationalizing that they are the chosen few and so deserve more than anyone else. Money lends a sort of useless succor to our lives. It fools us into believing if we only have enough of it, we will be the comfortable and good citizens who drop a few dollars into the Salvation Army bucket at Christmas time. If we happen to see a street person approaching us, however, we become fearful and cross the street to avoid the confrontation of seeing the want arising in their eyes. Hard work only tires me out so I avoid it whenever possible. I work enough to get by and then I stop. Today, a homeless man stopped by the church where I work. The secretary and the priest turned him out empty-handed. As he was leaving I followed and called out to him. I gave him the money I had in my pocket and a lunch I had brought. I didn't do it on account of feeling sorry for him. I did it because I had at one time been that same person and someone had paid it forward with me. Is that why you stopped for that accident today? Did you see yourself trapped in that vehicle? Or were you just being a good citizen, doing what was expected of you? Everything changes in an instant. Most people never realize that when they leave for work in the morning, they might not return. They don't recognize themselves in the dirty bedraggled faces that haunt the shadows of the alleyways and crack houses that dot the underbellies of the cities where they live. Most people believe in forever. Others may face misfortune and death but not them. I think it shocks us to realize the slender thread that holds us in place can be snapped at any time so we tend to ignore that possibility. We believe if we are good and righteous that goodness and righteousness will follow us the rest of our days and we'll die comfortably in our sleep, old and worn out, with our loving family there beside us, not homeless and alone. Anyway... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 11:11 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan, While inspiring a collage of different experiences, I find 'Butterfly Picnic' to be a little a gem. I really like it. *That the woman was watching, but not seeing*. Such a familiar mystery! Your explanation is also interesting from several different angles. - Drawing outside the lines is an interesting metaphor. There is the dependence on the lines to be able to experience the freedom of moving away from them. And didn't your sister draw outside the line by taking you to the museum? Yesterday was an interesting day. It was very busy. My last stop was at the grocery store to shop for food for the weekend. I live two miles from the store and was driving home when I witnessed a very bad accident. The oncoming driver was not killed, but it was very dramatic. I saw the car lose control, hit many guard tails, take flight and twist through the air over an embankment to land right-side up in a gulch. It was surreal. Of course I stopped to help, but more experienced men arrived almost immediately. There was only the driver who was conscious and talking, but trapped in the car. Since I was one of two witnesses, I stayed to offer my name and explanation to the police. What had I watched? What did I see? The whole tenor of the day changed in a few moments,
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hello Adrie! Good to hear from you too! Yes I know the Irises painting that you speak of. The painting I saw was a much smaller portrait of a single iris. Van Gogh painted many irises both in groups and by themselves, from what I understand. The town we visited was outside of Sacramento, if I remember rightly. I don't recall the name of it right off hand but it wasn't the Getty Museum in Los Angeles. I'll send you a copy of The Mystery: Zen Stories privately. Thanks again, Dan On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Adrie Kintziger parser...@gmail.comwrote: Hi , Dan, long time no see. Irises was created during confinement in the asylum, in the yard,..but it was never a single flower, the work is full of irises and their leaves the confusion is created by Vincent himself because he highlights one single iris in ...white!, only one among the dark blue ones. the blue ones are probably japanese irises,and hide themselveves in their natural abstract blue, probably they where more bright blue when painted, but the paint aged beautifully. http://www.vggallery.com/painting/p_0608.htm#analysis below the page is a list of places the work was displayed,probably you did see it in La? possible? it is in the possesion of the Getty museum.Vincent made more than one painting about the subject btw. https://www.google.be/search?q=iris+laevigatasafe=offespv=210es_sm=93source=lnmstbm=ischsa=Xei=EZS0UpOPEInkswbci4CICwsqi=2ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQbiw=1366bih=634 or, iris leavigata and set google for pictures nb, Also Claude Monet made some mighty impressions concerning irises https://www.google.be/search?q=iris+laevigatasafe=offespv=210es_sm=93source=lnmstbm=ischsa=Xei=EZS0UpOPEInkswbci4CICwsqi=2ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQbiw=1366bih=634#es_sm=93espv=210q=iris+claude+monetsafe=offtbm=ischfacrc=_imgdii=_imgrc=ZYDEfwKDuCwaUM%3A%3BXoSYY-NtOpseEM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.passagenproject.com%252Fvincent_van-gogh_irissen_1889.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpassagenproject.com%252Fblog%252F2011%252F01%252F25%252Fde-iris-bloem-in-de-kunst%252F%3B490%3B367 About your work, yes i like to have an e-copy of some of your latest writings, i would be gratefull. Adrie 2013/12/20 Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com This is a good example of what the MOQ calls the Code of Art. If memory serves, I wrote this story after a day of fishing with my oldest son in a creek that ran past a town where we used to live. I don't use a hook on my line lest I accidentally catch a fish but I did enjoy our time together immensely. I remember seeing clouds of butterflies dancing past us as we sat on the bank in the sunshine talking and watching the water flowing past. I have no idea why the story was written from the point of view of a woman. It just evolved that way. The finished story is a bit more risque than the excerpt you offered but that's neither here nor there. I guess the point is, I had no intention of writing the story until it appeared on my monitor. I'm thinking that is what the Code of Art is all about... a mystery that once fathomed is no longer applicable to real and creative art. I'm not sure any artist can intentionally set out to be creative. Take Vincent van Gogh as an example... I remember seeing a little painting of his hanging upon a wall in a northern California art museum. It was an iris, nothing more... a single flower. We've all seen them. What he did with the canvas and paints defies rationality, however. I am sure he set out to intentionally paint the iris, just as when I sit down in front of my computer I intend to write. What happens next is the mystery. A million artists have probably painted flowers just as a million writers have written stories. What makes van Gogh's work unique is how he visualized the world from the point of view of a mad man. Now, when I say: mad man, I am not talking literally although we all know he was confined to an institution for a time before he committed suicide. In fact, it was said he painted that portrait while institutionalized. So technically he was mad, or perhaps I should say from the point of view of a society that expects its members to conform rather than stand out, he was out of place and lost for most of his short life... except while he painted. When I saw his work in person for the first time, I didn't understand what I felt. I'd seen photographs of his paintings, sure, and I'd even ordered prints to hang on my wall. What I remember most was walking into a seemingly empty museum where my sister insisted we go. I was visiting her for the first time in decades and I thought we had better things to do than drive to a shabby building that purported itself to be a museum of art. There was no one there. I wondered to myself why we came there. It seemed a waste of time. There were various paintings hung upon the walls of nondescript artists who'd I never heard of before or since. She led me to the
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan, From my very limited experience, I'd say that the pre-static (before fear and thinking) response is always to give 150%, but that is not very advantageous for the survival of the self in dangerous situations. I did later notice that from the intensity of the incident, all the thoughts that had been floating through my mind that morning vacated. Gone! It made me laugh at myself! I will get the details concerning the driver some time this weekend, but from what I could see, they were very fortunate to have survived. Outside the line is where the best stuff happens. I recently reread RMP's introduction to the twenty-fifth anniversary edition of ZAMM. He said Phaedrus was never insane. Outside the line is where all the creative stuff happens, but it is extremely dangerous. It surprised me that both Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg did a stint in a hospital for schizophrenia. Tough times, indeed! I had my moments of insanity, but love and responsibility to my children always kept me in check. But now I feel free to fly, and do so in my studio. Not as dangerous as flying over an un-netted sea like Icarus. My studio is my favorite place to be. Do you think that your sister being a writer offered you permission to go back to that childhood longing to be a writer. And there was 'LILA's Child', that must have stirred the juices. Did you get assistance from others? I had helpers get me back to making art, and I am grateful to them. Marsha On Dec 21, 2013, at 2:44 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Not only does she draw outside the lines, my sister writes too. It's sort of funny that not only are we both artists, but we're both the black sheep of the family... never living up to our purported potential in the eyes of our parents or siblings. She moved off ages ago when she was just a teenager and I followed suit shortly thereafter. I never made it as far as she did, however... I only got about three blocks from home while she made it across the country. My father only sneered when he asked what I wanted to do when I grew up and I told him: to write. For a long time I tried to please him... perhaps not consciously but nevertheless I found myself attempting to follow his path through life. Only where he never failed to succeed, I never failed to fail. A short time before he passed away he told me what a disappointment I'd been to him, maybe not in so many words but I got the gist of what he was saying. I have no doubt that he always did his best for me, but we were not only separated by generation but by spirit. He believed in hard work. He had fought a war and came home a winner. He had learned to hate the enemy so thoroughly that it still simmered fifty years after the fact. The stories he told us when we were children inspired me to want to be a Marine like he was. When I grew older I realized my nature wasn't suited for such a regimented life. He died a rich man but all his money couldn't buy him another minute on this good earth. I never got to talk to my father about it but I think the MOQ would say that money is a form of social quality. It has nothing to do with biological patterns other than to use them to its own advantage. The rich feed off the poor all the while rationalizing that they are the chosen few and so deserve more than anyone else. Money lends a sort of useless succor to our lives. It fools us into believing if we only have enough of it, we will be the comfortable and good citizens who drop a few dollars into the Salvation Army bucket at Christmas time. If we happen to see a street person approaching us, however, we become fearful and cross the street to avoid the confrontation of seeing the want arising in their eyes. Hard work only tires me out so I avoid it whenever possible. I work enough to get by and then I stop. Today, a homeless man stopped by the church where I work. The secretary and the priest turned him out empty-handed. As he was leaving I followed and called out to him. I gave him the money I had in my pocket and a lunch I had brought. I didn't do it on account of feeling sorry for him. I did it because I had at one time been that same person and someone had paid it forward with me. Is that why you stopped for that accident today? Did you see yourself trapped in that vehicle? Or were you just being a good citizen, doing what was expected of you? Everything changes in an instant. Most people never realize that when they leave for work in the morning, they might not return. They don't recognize themselves in the dirty bedraggled faces that haunt the shadows of the alleyways and crack houses that dot the underbellies of the cities where they live. Most people believe in forever. Others may face misfortune and death but not them. I think it shocks us to realize the slender thread that holds us in place can be snapped at any time so we tend to ignore
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
This is a good example of what the MOQ calls the Code of Art. If memory serves, I wrote this story after a day of fishing with my oldest son in a creek that ran past a town where we used to live. I don't use a hook on my line lest I accidentally catch a fish but I did enjoy our time together immensely. I remember seeing clouds of butterflies dancing past us as we sat on the bank in the sunshine talking and watching the water flowing past. I have no idea why the story was written from the point of view of a woman. It just evolved that way. The finished story is a bit more risque than the excerpt you offered but that's neither here nor there. I guess the point is, I had no intention of writing the story until it appeared on my monitor. I'm thinking that is what the Code of Art is all about... a mystery that once fathomed is no longer applicable to real and creative art. I'm not sure any artist can intentionally set out to be creative. Take Vincent van Gogh as an example... I remember seeing a little painting of his hanging upon a wall in a northern California art museum. It was an iris, nothing more... a single flower. We've all seen them. What he did with the canvas and paints defies rationality, however. I am sure he set out to intentionally paint the iris, just as when I sit down in front of my computer I intend to write. What happens next is the mystery. A million artists have probably painted flowers just as a million writers have written stories. What makes van Gogh's work unique is how he visualized the world from the point of view of a mad man. Now, when I say: mad man, I am not talking literally although we all know he was confined to an institution for a time before he committed suicide. In fact, it was said he painted that portrait while institutionalized. So technically he was mad, or perhaps I should say from the point of view of a society that expects its members to conform rather than stand out, he was out of place and lost for most of his short life... except while he painted. When I saw his work in person for the first time, I didn't understand what I felt. I'd seen photographs of his paintings, sure, and I'd even ordered prints to hang on my wall. What I remember most was walking into a seemingly empty museum where my sister insisted we go. I was visiting her for the first time in decades and I thought we had better things to do than drive to a shabby building that purported itself to be a museum of art. There was no one there. I wondered to myself why we came there. It seemed a waste of time. There were various paintings hung upon the walls of nondescript artists who'd I never heard of before or since. She led me to the back room. I expected it to be empty too as I heard no voices nor any sounds at all. Instead, there was a crowd of maybe fifty people gathered around a spot on the farthest wall. I couldn't see what they were all looking at. My sister crooked her finger at me to follow her so I did. By and by a few of the people in front moved off and then a few more so gradually after an hour or so we made our way to the front. I wasn't prepared for what I saw. I just know it made a sudden and everlasting impression upon me and when the nights are particularly dark and I am feeling sorry for myself and my lonesome plight on this whirling globe, I think back to that simple iris hanging in infinity. The Code of Art must mean something like getting it right, but how did van Gogh know? How do storytellers know? What about the musicians and the poets and the beauty they produce? Where does it come from? A Butterfly Picnic means much more to me than a story about a girl lying naked on a blanket in the sun and being ogled by a dirty old man. The creek water flowing past, the butterflies dancing in the breeze, the food and drink, even the blanket... they all combine to lend an air of majesty to the mundane. That is perhaps what van Gogh meant by painting a simple iris. He must have studied the iris, how it moved, how it grew, how it unfurled itself to the sun, and how it died. He must have become the iris in a real sense. In the same way, by writing the stories that I write, I study the characters. I watch and learn how they walk and talk, how they interact with the world. I might write ten thousand words just learning who they are and what they do. Finally, I become the characters. It is only then that I can attempt in my own small way to bring them to life the same way van Gogh brought that iris to life. He imbued it with a type of immortality... its beauty reaches across the years to enlighten others to the possibilities of madness and insanity. Now, I don't mean to imply I am anywhere close to the artist that van Gogh was. I am an imposter. The Code of Art whispers its secrets to me and though I try to represent those mysteries the best I can, I am but a poor substitute for a real artist. I am like a child coloring with his crayons and doing his best to stay within the prescribed lines yet
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi , Dan, long time no see. Irises was created during confinement in the asylum, in the yard,..but it was never a single flower, the work is full of irises and their leaves the confusion is created by Vincent himself because he highlights one single iris in ...white!, only one among the dark blue ones. the blue ones are probably japanese irises,and hide themselveves in their natural abstract blue, probably they where more bright blue when painted, but the paint aged beautifully. http://www.vggallery.com/painting/p_0608.htm#analysis below the page is a list of places the work was displayed,probably you did see it in La? possible? it is in the possesion of the Getty museum.Vincent made more than one painting about the subject btw. https://www.google.be/search?q=iris+laevigatasafe=offespv=210es_sm=93source=lnmstbm=ischsa=Xei=EZS0UpOPEInkswbci4CICwsqi=2ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQbiw=1366bih=634 or, iris leavigata and set google for pictures nb, Also Claude Monet made some mighty impressions concerning irises https://www.google.be/search?q=iris+laevigatasafe=offespv=210es_sm=93source=lnmstbm=ischsa=Xei=EZS0UpOPEInkswbci4CICwsqi=2ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQbiw=1366bih=634#es_sm=93espv=210q=iris+claude+monetsafe=offtbm=ischfacrc=_imgdii=_imgrc=ZYDEfwKDuCwaUM%3A%3BXoSYY-NtOpseEM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.passagenproject.com%252Fvincent_van-gogh_irissen_1889.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpassagenproject.com%252Fblog%252F2011%252F01%252F25%252Fde-iris-bloem-in-de-kunst%252F%3B490%3B367 About your work, yes i like to have an e-copy of some of your latest writings, i would be gratefull. Adrie 2013/12/20 Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com This is a good example of what the MOQ calls the Code of Art. If memory serves, I wrote this story after a day of fishing with my oldest son in a creek that ran past a town where we used to live. I don't use a hook on my line lest I accidentally catch a fish but I did enjoy our time together immensely. I remember seeing clouds of butterflies dancing past us as we sat on the bank in the sunshine talking and watching the water flowing past. I have no idea why the story was written from the point of view of a woman. It just evolved that way. The finished story is a bit more risque than the excerpt you offered but that's neither here nor there. I guess the point is, I had no intention of writing the story until it appeared on my monitor. I'm thinking that is what the Code of Art is all about... a mystery that once fathomed is no longer applicable to real and creative art. I'm not sure any artist can intentionally set out to be creative. Take Vincent van Gogh as an example... I remember seeing a little painting of his hanging upon a wall in a northern California art museum. It was an iris, nothing more... a single flower. We've all seen them. What he did with the canvas and paints defies rationality, however. I am sure he set out to intentionally paint the iris, just as when I sit down in front of my computer I intend to write. What happens next is the mystery. A million artists have probably painted flowers just as a million writers have written stories. What makes van Gogh's work unique is how he visualized the world from the point of view of a mad man. Now, when I say: mad man, I am not talking literally although we all know he was confined to an institution for a time before he committed suicide. In fact, it was said he painted that portrait while institutionalized. So technically he was mad, or perhaps I should say from the point of view of a society that expects its members to conform rather than stand out, he was out of place and lost for most of his short life... except while he painted. When I saw his work in person for the first time, I didn't understand what I felt. I'd seen photographs of his paintings, sure, and I'd even ordered prints to hang on my wall. What I remember most was walking into a seemingly empty museum where my sister insisted we go. I was visiting her for the first time in decades and I thought we had better things to do than drive to a shabby building that purported itself to be a museum of art. There was no one there. I wondered to myself why we came there. It seemed a waste of time. There were various paintings hung upon the walls of nondescript artists who'd I never heard of before or since. She led me to the back room. I expected it to be empty too as I heard no voices nor any sounds at all. Instead, there was a crowd of maybe fifty people gathered around a spot on the farthest wall. I couldn't see what they were all looking at. My sister crooked her finger at me to follow her so I did. By and by a few of the people in front moved off and then a few more so gradually after an hour or so we made our way to the front. I wasn't prepared for what I saw. I just know it made a sudden and everlasting impression upon me and when the nights are particularly dark and I am feeling sorry for myself and my lonesome plight on this
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan, While inspiring a collage of different experiences, I find 'Butterfly Picnic' to be a little a gem. I really like it. *That the woman was watching, but not seeing*. Such a familiar mystery! Your explanation is also interesting from several different angles. - Drawing outside the lines is an interesting metaphor. There is the dependence on the lines to be able to experience the freedom of moving away from them. And didn't your sister draw outside the line by taking you to the museum? Yesterday was an interesting day. It was very busy. My last stop was at the grocery store to shop for food for the weekend. I live two miles from the store and was driving home when I witnessed a very bad accident. The oncoming driver was not killed, but it was very dramatic. I saw the car lose control, hit many guard tails, take flight and twist through the air over an embankment to land right-side up in a gulch. It was surreal. Of course I stopped to help, but more experienced men arrived almost immediately. There was only the driver who was conscious and talking, but trapped in the car. Since I was one of two witnesses, I stayed to offer my name and explanation to the police. What had I watched? What did I see? The whole tenor of the day changed in a few moments, certainly for the driver, but also for this witness. I am still shocked how quickly and dramatically things seem to change. Marsha On Dec 20, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: This is a good example of what the MOQ calls the Code of Art. If memory serves, I wrote this story after a day of fishing with my oldest son in a creek that ran past a town where we used to live. I don't use a hook on my line lest I accidentally catch a fish but I did enjoy our time together immensely. I remember seeing clouds of butterflies dancing past us as we sat on the bank in the sunshine talking and watching the water flowing past. I have no idea why the story was written from the point of view of a woman. It just evolved that way. The finished story is a bit more risque than the excerpt you offered but that's neither here nor there. I guess the point is, I had no intention of writing the story until it appeared on my monitor. I'm thinking that is what the Code of Art is all about... a mystery that once fathomed is no longer applicable to real and creative art. I'm not sure any artist can intentionally set out to be creative. Take Vincent van Gogh as an example... I remember seeing a little painting of his hanging upon a wall in a northern California art museum. It was an iris, nothing more... a single flower. We've all seen them. What he did with the canvas and paints defies rationality, however. I am sure he set out to intentionally paint the iris, just as when I sit down in front of my computer I intend to write. What happens next is the mystery. A million artists have probably painted flowers just as a million writers have written stories. What makes van Gogh's work unique is how he visualized the world from the point of view of a mad man. Now, when I say: mad man, I am not talking literally although we all know he was confined to an institution for a time before he committed suicide. In fact, it was said he painted that portrait while institutionalized. So technically he was mad, or perhaps I should say from the point of view of a society that expects its members to conform rather than stand out, he was out of place and lost for most of his short life... except while he painted. When I saw his work in person for the first time, I didn't understand what I felt. I'd seen photographs of his paintings, sure, and I'd even ordered prints to hang on my wall. What I remember most was walking into a seemingly empty museum where my sister insisted we go. I was visiting her for the first time in decades and I thought we had better things to do than drive to a shabby building that purported itself to be a museum of art. There was no one there. I wondered to myself why we came there. It seemed a waste of time. There were various paintings hung upon the walls of nondescript artists who'd I never heard of before or since. She led me to the back room. I expected it to be empty too as I heard no voices nor any sounds at all. Instead, there was a crowd of maybe fifty people gathered around a spot on the farthest wall. I couldn't see what they were all looking at. My sister crooked her finger at me to follow her so I did. By and by a few of the people in front moved off and then a few more so gradually after an hour or so we made our way to the front. I wasn't prepared for what I saw. I just know it made a sudden and everlasting impression upon me and when the nights are particularly dark and I am feeling sorry for myself and my lonesome plight on this whirling globe, I think back to that simple iris hanging in infinity. The Code of Art must mean something like getting
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
And for LILA there will be created 'The Lila Journal'. On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
And to celebrate 10 years at the MD, 'MD: Metaphysician Heal Thyself'. The theme might be how character building it has been to hangout cybernetically with a bunch of intellectually- minded, zen men. I can use RMP quotes and bits pieces of MD dialogue. Indeed, some of the dialogue has been great, others not so great. The juxtaposition: pricelesss! Ahh Luna,,, still quite full... On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:19 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: And for LILA there will be created 'The Lila Journal'. On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics, and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working every now and then. Most times I just hang out in back and read books on my Android. Anyway, some of them were happy, some didn't give a crap, one gorgeous little blonde gal who I'd really like to pork acted like a kid on Christmas morning, and one guy told me he actually writes too... one of the Mexican porters who details cars. Who'd a thunk it. I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
He he. It's days like this I'm glad I'm still subscribed to MD. Thanks Marsha Dan. Ian On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics, and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working every now and then. Most times I just hang out in back and read books on my Android. Anyway, some of them were happy, some didn't give a crap, one gorgeous little blonde gal who I'd really like to pork acted like a kid on Christmas morning, and one guy told me he actually writes too... one of the Mexican porters who details cars. Who'd a thunk it. I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan Ian and all, I can identify. Have you any idea how many paintings I've dropped off at Goodwill hoping they'd find someone to appreciate them. Clean slate, emptying teacup, or just plain making room for more. Cannot really complain, though, I love every moment in my studio. So on to making some art journals. Knowing how frustrating these MD discussions can be, I miss you both. Dan, your stories - flash fiction? - were always amazing. And, ian, I thought Grayson Perry had some important things to discuss. AND for goodness sake, isn't it about making art out of life??? Maybe to start the year discussing the code of art might be a good thing. Marsha On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics, and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working every now and then. Most times I just hang out in back and read books on my Android. Anyway, some of them were happy, some didn't give a crap, one gorgeous little blonde gal who I'd really like to pork acted like a kid on Christmas morning, and one guy told me he actually writes too... one of the Mexican porters who details cars. Who'd a thunk it. I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hi Dan and All, Are DQ/SQ hoboes? They are not mainstream yet. For myself I had no interest in mainstream until I went to New York to help on the Catholic Worker paper put out by Dorothy Day. I left New York to go south for voter registration. A new metaphysics and I still have no solid foundation trusting social security. Wife (passed on) and family are seeking security in different ways. What in the world can I say? Joe On 12/19/13 2:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Hey Ian, Good to hear from you, and thanks! On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 4:21 AM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote: He he. It's days like this I'm glad I'm still subscribed to MD. Thanks Marsha Dan. Ian On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics, and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working every now and then. Most times I just hang out in back and read books on my Android. Anyway, some of them were happy, some didn't give a crap, one gorgeous little blonde gal who I'd really like to pork acted like a kid on Christmas morning, and one guy told me he actually writes too... one of the Mexican porters who details cars. Who'd a thunk it. I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
I don't know if my giving away a few books has anything to do with emptying my teacup but perhaps. I got the idea from World Book Day where they enlist others in an attempt to give away a million books. I thought, why not give away a few of my own instead of those of other authors? I never much cared for the term 'flash fiction' as it seems to accentuate speed over quality. I don't need writing prompts nor do I wait for inspiration to arise. I just write. Whether my stories are amazing or not, I don't know. I appreciate you saying so although the way you put it has me ensconced in the past. I am still deeply involved with my writings on a daily basis. As always, I am happy to send you (or anyone here) an e-copy of my latest work if you so desire. People ask me where my ideas for my stories come from. I don't know. I sit down in front of my computer to an empty screen and a blank mind and in a little while it is full of words. Most of it is crap but sometimes I discover a few pearls amid the swill. Anyway... On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:25 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan Ian and all, I can identify. Have you any idea how many paintings I've dropped off at Goodwill hoping they'd find someone to appreciate them. Clean slate, emptying teacup, or just plain making room for more. Cannot really complain, though, I love every moment in my studio. So on to making some art journals. Knowing how frustrating these MD discussions can be, I miss you both. Dan, your stories - flash fiction? - were always amazing. And, ian, I thought Grayson Perry had some important things to discuss. AND for goodness sake, isn't it about making art out of life??? Maybe to start the year discussing the code of art might be a good thing. Marsha On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics, and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working every now and then. Most times I just hang out in back and read books on my Android. Anyway, some of them were happy, some didn't give a crap, one gorgeous little blonde gal who I'd really like to pork acted like a kid on Christmas morning, and one guy told me he actually writes too... one of the Mexican porters who details cars. Who'd a thunk it. I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
An amazing favorite from 2007: A Butterfly Picnic Clumps of small white butterflies with black eyeballs on their wings dance in spiraling circles along the creek. A woman is watching the butterflies play but she isn't seeing them. She sits on a green and white plaid blanket. Along side her a loaf of bread and a bottle of wine poke up out of a brown woven basket. Sunshine tingles over her naked body. A breeze rustles the cattails growing in shallow water beside the creek bank and tickles the grass growing around her blanket. A long unused train trestle runs over the rippling water just a short distance away. Mottled-gray stones at its base are crumbling. A man sits on the trestle on a ledge near the top close by a metal ladder driven into the weathered stone blocks. The woman takes the bread and breaks it, reveling in finding the soft underneath through the crisp crust. She pours the wine. Raising the glass to her lips she looks up to see the man watching her. She starts but quickly remembers that he has always been there. Sh e watches the butterflies play but she isn't seeing them. On Dec 20, 2013, at 12:16 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know if my giving away a few books has anything to do with emptying my teacup but perhaps. I got the idea from World Book Day where they enlist others in an attempt to give away a million books. I thought, why not give away a few of my own instead of those of other authors? I never much cared for the term 'flash fiction' as it seems to accentuate speed over quality. I don't need writing prompts nor do I wait for inspiration to arise. I just write. Whether my stories are amazing or not, I don't know. I appreciate you saying so although the way you put it has me ensconced in the past. I am still deeply involved with my writings on a daily basis. As always, I am happy to send you (or anyone here) an e-copy of my latest work if you so desire. People ask me where my ideas for my stories come from. I don't know. I sit down in front of my computer to an empty screen and a blank mind and in a little while it is full of words. Most of it is crap but sometimes I discover a few pearls amid the swill. Anyway... On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 5:25 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Hi Dan Ian and all, I can identify. Have you any idea how many paintings I've dropped off at Goodwill hoping they'd find someone to appreciate them. Clean slate, emptying teacup, or just plain making room for more. Cannot really complain, though, I love every moment in my studio. So on to making some art journals. Knowing how frustrating these MD discussions can be, I miss you both. Dan, your stories - flash fiction? - were always amazing. And, ian, I thought Grayson Perry had some important things to discuss. AND for goodness sake, isn't it about making art out of life??? Maybe to start the year discussing the code of art might be a good thing. Marsha On Dec 19, 2013, at 5:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote: Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed. Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics, and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working every now and then. Most times I just hang out in back and read books on my Android. Anyway, some of them were happy, some didn't give a crap, one gorgeous little blonde gal who I'd really like to pork acted like a kid on Christmas morning, and one guy told me he actually writes too... one of the Mexican porters who details cars. Who'd a thunk it. I felt like I was handing out blankets to hobos. Maybe I was. On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 3:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote: Greetings, Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I have a great love for this book in particular, but what the heck!!! S symbolic. Not as dramatic as tattooing a paragraph on my body, but more personal in so many ways. Btw, if you were to tattoo a paragraph, which would it be? And why? Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html -- http://www.danglover.com Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
Re: [MD] Art and Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
Speaking of Goodwill, off she went to find a copy of a dictionary to enable collaging those important definitions like static, dynamic, value and troll. She could hardly wait for the joy of ripping and gluing those thin, paper pieces onto her journal page. Laying the book onto the work space it serendipitously opened to the page containing l-o-v-e. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
