Re: Similar Unicode characters
On Sat, 2005-12-31 at 09:19 +0330, Mohsen Saboorian wrote: > Is there any other similarities (mainly about Arabic letters) in other > languages: e.g. Urdu. Yes, both Pashto and Urdu have such problems. They both use the Persian Kaf (KEHEH), and Pashto uses both the the Arabic Yeh (YEH) and the Persian Yeh (FARSI YEH). Urdu also has an alternative Yeh, YEH BARREE, while Pashto has two additional Yehs, making the number of different Yehs used in the language four or five (depending on if you count the YEH WITH HAMZA or not.) Their situation is worse than Persian, since: 1) Higher level Urdu computing experts are somehow undecided about which codes to use for Kaf. 2) Since Pashto uses both Persian and Arabic Yehs, which look the same in medial form, different computing experts have come to different conclusions about which code to use. See Everson and Pournader, "Computer Locale Requirements for Afghanistan", p. 5, available from http://evertype.com/standards/af/ The situation of Kurdish is also interesting, as most Iranian users use the Persian Kaf (at least in typography), while most Iraqi users use the Arabic Kaf. Roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian POS Tagger
On Tue, 2005-12-13 at 07:50 -0800, Fahimeh Raja wrote: > We are a group working on Persian POS tagger in university of Tehran. > I am sending this email to know if anybody can help us in this field. Just out of curiosity: Where in the University of Tehran are you working on that, and which faculty member are you working under? Roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: siâh and giâh
On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 21:51 +0200, Jalal Maleki wrote: > The two most common diphthongs in Persian are ey and ow like > in Peyman, peyk, nowruz, Mowlavi, and so on. Well, not every expert agrees that "ey" is a diphthong. It's a controversial issue. > I can put my question in a different way: does giâh have two > syllables or just one? This may have the same situation. Some linguists may say is a diphthong and hence one syllable, while others may say this is two syllables. BTW, This list is mostly about computing-related aspects of the Persian language, and members are usually more of technical background than linguistic background. Linguistic discussions will probably not get anywhere here, and are off-topic IMHO. Roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 18:33 +0330, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > About "tg" vs "tan": for a while, "tg", "cotg", and "cosec" were used. > Then the academic community switched to "tan", "cot", and "csc" but the > high school trigonometry textbooks remained with "tg" and family. After > a while, the high school textbooks also switched. Now the common form > used in all levels of education is "tan" and family. Ah, something else. When the "tg" and family were the default, all such trigonometric operators were typeset in italic type, not roman. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
About "tg" vs "tan": for a while, "tg", "cotg", and "cosec" were used. Then the academic community switched to "tan", "cot", and "csc" but the high school trigonometry textbooks remained with "tg" and family. After a while, the high school textbooks also switched. Now the common form used in all levels of education is "tan" and family. About the stretched limit: High schools used that Persian stretched limit (Heh, Dal) when I was in high school, but the official textbooks now use the Latin "lim" (I just confirmed this with a high school student who checked with his textbook). The academic community have often used "lim". Roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: DocBook RTL document?
On Thu, 2005-07-21 at 13:28 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > I have no idea what engine they are using to produce PS or PDF. Well, "xmlto" uses TeX for that. Sebastian Rahtz's PassiveTeX, IIRC. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: ALL COMPUTER BOOKS IN THE WORLD
Thanks for the notice. I removed the offending message from the archives. Please make sure you don't quote the problematics parts in your replies next time. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Number display in Firefox
This behavior is of course considered very bad practice, and is not
recommended in any standards. It would also limit one to be able to
display European numbers at all.
So, I would recommend not to turn on the feature, and nag to the
webadmins instead to use Persian digits in their Persian documents.
roozbeh
On Sun, 2005-03-27 at 21:31 +0430, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I just found something cool in Firefox which I had not come across
> before, and thought some of you guys might not know it as well. As far
> as I can tell this is related to Gecko, so it must affect all Mozilla
> based applications, though I have not tested it anywhere except Firefox 1.0.
>
> The default rendering behavior for numbers appearing inside Persian text
> in Mozilla is to show them as Latin digits (1 2 3 ...), though in IE it
> depends on the context (whether the direction of the containing text is
> rtl or ltr.) To make Firefox respect the direction of the text in this
> regard, you can add the following line to your user.js file:
>
> user_pref("bidi.numeral", 1);
>
> which sets the number rendering mode to "context." This enables ASCII
> digits entered inside Persian text to be rendered as Persian numbers (Û
> Û Û ...) Of course this does not affect the behavior of rendering
> numbers explicitly entered using Unicode character codes.
>
> FWIW,
> Ehsan
>
> ___
> PersianComputing mailing list
> PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu
> http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
___
PersianComputing mailing list
PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu
http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: leap year issue with jalali
On Sat, 2005-03-26 at 02:34 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > I don't know why Roozbeh > likes to keep he buggy executable around. No specific reason. Probably waiting for someone to submit a fixed version of the Windows binary. > Roozbeh, do you mind if I remove it? No, I don't. But the best is trying to get someone fix the bug from the C source and recompile. There are many Windows users out there. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian Javascript Input under Firefox/Mozilla
On Mon, 2005-03-07 at 02:36 -0600, Pooya Karimian wrote: > I have put together a javascript code based on Roozbeh Pournader/Behdad > Esfahbod code to emulate Persian keyboard layout under > Mozilla/Firefox/Internet Explorer. Ah, it was never my code. I don't know how much Behdad worked on it, but the only part I really did was making the keyboard layout compatible with ISIRI 2901. > There are also some small changes in the keyboard layout based on Behnam > Esfahbod's suggestions. I would appreciate to know the details. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: The New Alef
On Thu, 2005-02-24 at 20:29 -0500, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > It's used on car plates, but the exact usage is disputed among a few > > friends of mine. > > What do you mean exactly? That what kind of car plates used the Alef. The car plates which use it are red usually, but appear without the marks that usually appeared on cars with older red plates, which were governmental or public service or something. They appear on cars which look like other cars in every way. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: The New Alef
On Wed, 2005-02-23 at 07:57 -0600, Connie Bobroff wrote: > Quoting Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > There has been a new Alef around for quite a while. > > Why do you say "new?" Alef is always written out that way as in > "numbered lists," Umm..., because they connect the Alef to the Lam at the top and cut the Feh short? I have never seen it like that in a numbered list. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
The New Alef
There has been a new Alef around for quite a while. For those who don't live in Iran or haven't seen it yet for any reasons, a photo is available at: http://bamdad.org/~roozbeh/alef.jpg It's used on car plates, but the exact usage is disputed among a few friends of mine. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: FW: Re: Nesef Font
On Mon, 2005-02-21 at 01:15 -0700, Soran M. wrote: > Does you Nesf2 font support Kurdish letters also that are not part of the > Arabic/Farsi alphabet? No. > If not, do you have any plans to do so? Do you have any fonts that support > all Kurdish letters and Farsi letters. No, there is no plan to extend Nesf or Nesf2 by the FarsiWeb project in any way, or fix its known bugs. But it is among the long term goals of the FarsiWeb project to add support for other Iranian languages (including Kurdish) to the farsifonts package which currently only supports Persian and Arabic. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: It seems that kompare have problems in FC3 with UTF-8!
On Tue, 2005-01-18 at 09:03, Hedayat Vatakhah wrote: > ITNO GOD > Hi everybody, > Kompare is a useful program for me. May I ask what is "Kompare" exactly? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: openoffice & zwnj
On Sun, 2005-01-02 at 20:45, Mohammad Norouzi wrote: > I have a big problem with typing farsi in the OpenOffice > when I type zwnj some character like "|" appear that should not. > Is there anyone who has the same problem or know the solution ?? > Is that a bug of oppenoffice ? That's a famous bug that will happen in applications. KDE also had that bug for quite a time until Behdad fixed it. The bug is because the application or the rendering engine asks the font for a glyph for the character, where it shouldn't. The application or the rendering engine should not pass ZWNJ (and a few other "invisible" Unicode characters) down. I don't know if the bug is still present in latest versions of OpenOffice.org, but it won't hurt checking and reporting the bug. Please give me a URL to your bug report when you did it. Roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian clipart
On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 11:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > * Islamic Republic of Iran official emblem, based on the same > specification, with a very slight modification to match the > emblem in common usage: Questions: What exactly is that slight modification? How is this different from the emblem which was already provided on the FarsiWeb website? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian translation of GNOME
I'll reply off-list. roozbeh On Wed, 2004-08-04 at 22:44, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > I'd like to help in translating the GNOME 2.8 po files. I noticed that > Roozbeh is the leader of the Persian translation team. I'd like to know how > I can contribute. Should I send patches to Roozbeh himself, or do something > else? Also, are there any tools which can help in the translation (instead > of manually editing the po files)? ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Linux teaching website
BTW Ehsan, I consider this off-topic. This is about Persian support in software and computers, software written to handle Persian text, etc. This is not a list to gather volunteers for a website that happens to be about an operating system and in Persian. Not that I'm not personally interested, but only that it is off-topic. roozbeh On Thu, 2004-08-05 at 10:18, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > Hi all, > > Is there any interest for a Persian website dedicated to teach Linux from > the ground up? I've been spending some time looking for Linux teaching > websites on the net, and I've found a number of them. Most of them have > only contained a handful of Linux related tips, and there are a few which > attempt in actually teaching Linux, but they don't have a good teaching > program for getting beginners started -- All they provide is a teaching > guide for a certain application or aspect of the system. And there are > several which are mostly dedicated to Linux discussions/news, which don't > fall in this category. > > Now, what I have in mind is this. As a Persian user, one needs a Persian > teaching resource which does not assume previous experience at all, and > starts teaching Linux from the ground up; in a way that they can follow from > Lesson 1 upward to start learning Linux. And the whole teaching material > will be free, both as in freedom and as in free "maa-oshaeer". :-) > > Do you guys think this is a good idea? Do you have any idea about things to > add, or exclude, maybe? > > I also need help if anyone is willing/able to give. I'm going to write up > "Linux from command line" lesssons myself, which start from ls/cd commands > up to more advanced command line tricks and shell programming methods, and > then I might consider writiing about a graphical desktop, an application (or > an app suite), or a specific task (like networking with Linux, for example.) > But I think it would be very nice if several parallel topics can be started > simultaneously. But I don't have enough time for that myself, so I need > help. If anyone is able to write about such a topic from the ground up and > on a lesson by lesson basis, I'd be grateful to have their help. Also, if > anyone is able to write Linux tips & tricks, then that would be nice as > well. Also, we can open up forums if some of you guys do the favor of > answering questions there (since I won't have enough time...) > > In case anyone decides to join, I think I would use MovableType as the > publishing system, so it would be easy for anyone to get started writing > articles. > > Ideas/questions/comments/suggestions? > > Thanks in advance! > - > Ehsan Akhgari > > Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/) > > List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] > [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] > > > > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Bidirectional Layouts in Gtk+ -- Slides
On Tue, 2004-07-20 at 05:18, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > http://behdad.org/download/Presentations/bidi-layouts/ WOW! That is absolutely amazing. How was it received? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Call for Participation: Coling Workshop on Arabic Script Languages
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:22:46 -0700 From: "Karine Megerdoomian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Call for Participation: Coling Workshop on Arabic Script Languages ** Call for Participation ** COLING 2004 WORKSHOP ON COMPUTATIONAL APPROACHES TO ARABIC SCRIPT-BASED LANGUAGES Geneva, Switzerland, 23-27 August 2004 Invited Speaker: Martin Kay (Stanford University) http://members.cox.net/karinem/COLING2004 WORKSHOP THEME Recently, there has been a surge of interest in the study of the languages of the Middle East, especially Arabic, Persian (Farsi), Pashto, Kurdish and Urdu. The usage of the Arabic script gives rise to certain issues that are common to all these languages despite their being of distinct language families. Hence, these languages share properties such as the absence of capitalization, right to left direction, lack of clear word boundaries, complex word structure, a high degree of ambiguity due to non-representation of short vowels in the writing system, and related encoding issues. Yet the research on these various languages have rarely been brought together in a single forum, and most development has been the result of initiatives by individual research establishments or industry firms. The goal of this workshop is to provide a forum for those involved in the development of NLP systems in Arabic script languages to exchange ideas, approaches and implementations of computational systems; to discuss the common challenges faced by all practitioners; and to assess the state of the art in the field. In addition, one of the aims of the workshop is to identify promising areas for future collaborative research in the development of NLP systems for Arabic script languages. WORKSHOP PROGRAM I. Opening and Overview 8:30-9:00 Computer Processing of Arabic Script-based Languages: Current State and Future Directions - Ali Farghaly II. Session 1: Lexicon and Corpora 9:00-9:30 Developing an Arabic Treebank: Methods, Guidelines, Procedures, and Tools - Mohamed Maamouri and Ann Bies 9:30-10:00 Preliminary Lexical Framework for English-Arabic Semantic Resource Construction - Anne R. Diekema 10:00-10:30 The Architecture of a Standard Arabic Lexical Database: Some Figures, Ratios, and Categories from the DIINAR.1 Source Program - Ramzi AbbÃs, Joseph Dichy and Mohamed Hassoun 10:30-10:45 Break III. Session 2: Morphology 10:45-11:15 Systematic Verb Stem Generation for Arabic - Jim Yaghi and Sane Yagi 11:15-11:45 Issues in Arabic Orthography and Morphology Analysis - Tim Buckwalter 11:45-12:15 Finite-State Morphological Analysis of Persian - Karine Megerdoomian 12:15-2:00 Lunch & Demo Sessions IV. Demonstrations Urdu Localization Project - Sarmad Hussain FarsiSum: A Persian Text Summarizer - Martin Hassel and Nima Mazdak Stemming the Qur'an - Naglaa Thabet Language Weaver Arabic->English MT - Daniel Marcu, Alex Fraser, William Wong and Kevin Knight V. Invited Speaker 2:00-2:45 Arabic Script-Based Languages Deserve to be Studied Linguistically - Martin Kay VI. Session 3: Statistical Approaches 2:45-3:15 An Unsupervised Approach for Bootstrapping Arabic Sense Tagging - Mona T. Diab 3:15-3:45 Automatic Arabic Document Categorization Based on the Naive Bayes Algorithm - Mohamed El Kourdi, Amine Bensaid and Tajje-eddine Rachidi 3:45-4:00 Break VII. Session 4: Speech Processing 4:00-4:30 A Transcription Scheme for Languages Employing the Arabic Script Motivated by Speech Processing Applications - Shadi Ganjavi, Panayiotis G. Georgiou and Shrikanth Narayanan 4:30-5:00 Automatic Diacritization of Arabic for Acoustic Modeling in Speech Recognition - Dimitra Vergyri and Katrin Kirchhoff 5:00-5:30 Letter-to-Sound Conversion for Urdu Text-to-Speech System - Sarmad Hussain VIII. Discussion and Closing 5:30-6:00 Ali Farghaly and Karine Megerdoomian Accepted papers and formal demonstrations will be published in a proceedings volume, which will be made available at the workshop. WORKSHOP REGISTRATION For the workshops to take place, the COLING 2004 organizers require at least 20 participants to register for the workshop. Speakers and participants are therefore asked to register via the official Coling 2004 website as soon as possible by visiting http://www.issco.unige.ch/coling2004/. Workshop fees (in Swiss Francs): * Student early chf 90 * Student late chf 120 * Student on-site chf 150 * Regular early chf 120 * Regular late chf 150 * Regular on-site chf 180 ORGANIZING COMMITTEE Ali Farghaly (SYSTRAN Software, Inc.) Karine Megerdoomian (Inxight Software and University of California, San Diego) PROGRAM COMMITTEE Jan W. Amtrup (Bowne Global Solutions) Tim Buckwalter (Linguistic Data Consortium) Miriam Butt (Konstanz University, Germany) Violetta Cavalli-Sforza (Carnegie Mellon University) Joseph Dichy (Lyon University) Abdelkadir Fassi Fehri (Mo
[Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Farsi in Max OS X]]
-Forwarded Message- From: Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Farsi in Max OS X] Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:54:27 +0100 At 19:18 +0430 2004-07-06, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Your friend could try AbiWord 2.1.2 for OS X http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14743 It is free and is multi-platform and OpenSource. >-Forwarded Message- >From: Kit Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Farsi in Max OS X >Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:48:02 +0430 > >I am doing some work in Afghanistan and would like to be able to >generate content in Dari on my Mac laptop running OS 10.3.4 So far it >appears that I cannot use Office X or Filemaker 5.5 and generate Dari >due to those applications not supporting unicode fonts. > >Does anyone have any advice in this matter? If I upgrade to Filemaker >7.7 and Office 2004, will those applications recognize unicode and will >I require additional fonts? > >Thank you for any help that can be provided. > >___ >PersianComputing mailing list >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation
On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 19:41, C Bobroff wrote: > If you're talking about sorting, it was recently pointed out (see > archives) that Windows server 2003 can sort Persian properly. I would appreciate if someone can volunteer to run a test data set FarsiWeb has on it. I'm 100% sure they won't support Hamzas or Harakat properly. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation
You can do proper Persian sorting using either glibc (available in all GNU/Linux distributions), or ICU (available from http://oss.software.ibm.com/icu/). There is no other software known to the community that does Persian Unicode software properly without using either of those. roozbeh On Thu, 2004-06-24 at 21:15, Peter Cruickshank wrote: > Hello > > I'm a new subscriber to the list, so please forgive me if I'm asking an old > question. I did look at the archives for last few months though and didn't > see any discussion of this issue: > > The subject kind of explains it all - I'm part of a team adapting an open > source MySql based content management system (Back-End - > www.back-end,org) to work with Persian content. A big stumbling block is > getting UTF-8 collation working. We don't want to be reinventing wheels > here - so it would be great to hear if someone has already built a UTF-8 > collation file and is willing to share it? > > Any help or pointers will be greatly appreciated! > > Thanks > > Peter ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates
Hooman, There is this application called Unibook that may help you NOT write the software for browsing the database. Depends on your needs of course: http://www.unicode.org/unibook/ roozbeh On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 06:38, Hooman Mehr wrote: > Hi Behdad, > > On Jun 26, 2004, at 1:50 AM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > > > I'm confused now. What do you expect in PropList.txt about > > U+060D? If you read UCD.html, it says that files like > > PropList.txt just list those code points that hold a true value > > for the binary property. Why they don't list the all?? Why > > should the do? There are more than a million of them, while > > poins of interest are usually less than a thousand ones... > > > > behdad > > > You are right, that was my mistake. I had some wrong perceptions about > U+060D that made me believe it would belong there. I am starting to > feel I need to import all those data files into a database for quick > reference. I am getting tired of having to find information scattered > across so many different places (book, charts and various data files) I > still feel there should be a better way for organizing all the > information in Unicode. > > - Hooman > > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Khotot project needs update
On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 09:08, Nadim Shaikli wrote: > --- Munzir Taha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Nadim, please update the pages to reflect the last changes: > > > > For the farsifonts: > > There is a 0.4 release at > > http://www.farsiweb.info/font/farsifonts-0.4.zip > > I have no means to know this and I'd requested we be told (via a private > mail or a mail to Arabeyes' "general" list) when such releases do happen. Well, me telling you the latest is 0.4 started that thread. I will definitely keep you posted on new releases, but that, I had already told. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 2004-06-21 at 04:34, C Bobroff wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > > we are *specifying* a single way to do > > things. > > Why the 2 calendars then? Behdad gave some reason. The other is: because there may be other restrictions. So we are practically saying if you want to do it vertical, do it this way, if you want to do it horizontal, do it that way. If you don't care about horizontal or vertical, we will give you a preferred way. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 18:41, Hooman Mehr wrote: > [...] The best solution in my opinion is to provide exact format strings (as > arrays of Unicode characters with specific placeholders for date > elements). This will avoid any possible ambiguity in the specification. That will be specified in a coming appendix, which will have the locale data for ICU and GNU C library. Anyway, the situation is worse than what you may guess. The Unicode Consortium has changed the bidirectional category of a few characters, including Slash, in Unicode 4.0.1. For Slash and its brethren, it's not just Neutral or things like that. We are having stuff like European Terminators and Common Separators in the Unicode Bidi algorithm. > I sincerely hope that you won't tell me that you expect the users to > type 1383 then / then 1 then / then 12 to enter a date in short format, > because it would be unnatural and none obvious (although currently it > may be the only way to get a correct result with the available software > applications). I'm not implying anything about users here. We are specifying how the final text should be displayed. We have not specified how to encode it (of course that doesn't mean one is allowed to encode it however he likes). If we do that, we may not remain conforming to Unicode if Unicode changes yet another bidirectional category in a later version. > As I have seen, you have defended going back to using the correct yeh > and correcting the faulty software/fonts, so I hope you choose the > right thing to do this time as well. I always do the right thing, don't I? ;-) > Alright I know, you may say: It is impossible any other way! What is > the solution? I say: the answer is too technical to be included in the locale specification. There will be different answers for different situations, in different contexts, or in different Unicode versions. BTW, Behdad is attending the Unicode Consortium's Technical Committee meeting right now, and later the ISO JTC1/SC2 ones. I'm sure the UTC meeting (which will be the first with a FarsiWeb member present) will have good news for us (which may include more changes and clarifications to the Bidirectional algorithm). roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khatt e Farsi
On Fri, 2004-06-18 at 21:49, Peyman wrote: > After resolving this issue, I try to go through the nice draft and > give my suggestions if any. We would appreciate suggestions, independent of whether this issue gets resolved or not. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sat, 2004-06-19 at 00:32, C Bobroff wrote: > I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal > names is absurd. Connie, Please! You really don't see the point? We are not documenting practice in the locale spec, we are *specifying* a single way to do things. People are very welcome to ignore the specification and do whatever they like to do, if they don't claim they follow it. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
I don't know how you got to the page, but it is about the the Arabic *language* in Iran. The (almost) correct Persian page is at: http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=fa_IR (which is done partially by me.) roozbeh On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 05:01, Ali A. Khanban wrote: > Hi, > > Have a look at: > http://oss.software.ibm.com/cgi-bin/icu/lx/en_US/?_=ar&d_=en_US&_r=IR&; > > Maybe we need to submit the draft version to correct this. Anyway, as > long as there is a note, it should be OK to refer to script as Arabic, > though I still prefer something like "Perso-Arabic". > > Best > -ali- > > C Bobroff wrote: > > >On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: > > > > > >>Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count. > >> > >> > > > >Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors > >think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script. > > > >Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with > >just a quick glance that most further explain that it is *modified* Arabic > >script or called *Perso-Arabic.* > > > >If you're writing in English, you'd better not say simply "Arabic script." > > > >-Connie > > > > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 23:39, Ali A Khanban wrote: > Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count. I believe national requirements of a government counts, whoever the author. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 01:34, C Bobroff wrote: > I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that > Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm > that you are right. In linguistic circles "Perso-Arabic script" is used to > refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian). I'm sure Michael Everson was *at least* talking about linguistic circles. Unicode didn't exist in 19th century, so he could only be talking about linguistic usage. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: OT: On computing, in Persian
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 01:54, C Bobroff wrote: > BTW, what's with this new usage of replacing "Peh" with "Yeh." Do we not > have enough Yeh problems as it is? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I'm seeing Peh's fine in the article. There is a chance that you are encountering a Tahoma's hinting bug that drops the bottom Noghte of Peh in certain sizes. Are you seeing the article in Tahoma? Do the Yeh's change back into Peh's if you resize the document? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
OT: On computing, in Persian
The Shargh newspaper has a weird article about Linux and GNU. It's off-topic here (it's in Persian and on Computing, just that), but it used a really weird language that may be interesting for some members here. It also mentions a few ideas about localization at the end. It's titled "Linux is a User of Philosophy": http://www.sharghnewspaper.com/830323/idea.htm#s68703 The credit to find it goes to Hamed Malek (a silent lurker here). I don't read the "andishe" page in Shargh. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 04:52, C Bobroff wrote: > You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the > ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice. Like in "feredrish-e niche", or "reymond-e kaarver"? ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:46, C Bobroff wrote: > How do you account for the preference for Arabic Yeh and Kaf by 99.9% > of the populatation. How is that percentage estimated? As far as I know, more are returning to the Persian codes since standard software support is getting better. The transition is hard, yes, but they are coming. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is right here? roozbeh On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote: > On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > > > Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu? > > > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles. > > No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic > script." You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only > applies to the Arabic language. Your Persian-knowing readers of the draft > will know what you mean if you just say "khatt-e `arabi" however, I > recommend you put "Perso-Arabic script" (in English) or "modified Arabic > script" so that if the draft gets translated into some other language, > the people less familiar with Persian will understand and that will make > its way back into the translation. > > -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:47, C Bobroff wrote: > There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic. Please explain the difference. > You are giving incomplete and wrong information. No, we are not. Reread the text, please, and reconsider that we are recommending a certain practice for use in visual representation of names in *computer applications* (and clearly not on book titles). > And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However, > now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going > to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come > to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see. I'm not fixing this, honestly. I may add and endnote or a footnote, but I'm not going to change the recommendation, *unless you convince me*. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
On Sat, 2004-06-12 at 19:04, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > Since you are a linguist, I wish to refer you to a linguistic text, > Daniels and Bright's "The World's Writing Systems", Oxford University > Press, 1996, ISBN 0195079930. Please read Section 50, "Arabic Writing". ... and section 62, "Adaptation of Arabic Script". roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 09:01, Peyman wrote: > Conclusion: You can say that the origin of our alphabet is Arabic but > you can not claim that our writing system is Arabic. Our writing > system is Persian khaat e farsi. It is what my teacher Dr. Safavi as a > linguist says in his book and what I also say as a linguist. Well, I wish to emphasize that our writing system should be described as "Arabic" in certain contexts, like when used in internationalized computer systems. Since you are a linguist, I wish to refer you to a linguistic text, Daniels and Bright's "The World's Writing Systems", Oxford University Press, 1996, ISBN 0195079930. Please read Section 50, "Arabic Writing". > Dr Bateni proposed a minor change to our writing system long ago in > order to better serve the Persian language; and they ignored him and > fired him from the Tehran university because of political and > religious red lines. Please provide details. Linguistic details, at least. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
On Sat, 2004-06-12 at 12:14, Hooman Mehr wrote: > c) The phrase does not need to be a literal translation of "Arabic > Script" I don't necessarily agree. Nor does Behdad, it seems. > I vote against using "arabi" to name the family of > scripts that our script belongs to. We thank you for your stance, but the FarsiWeb project is not a democratic institution, nor you are a member ;-) Honestly, you should try to convince me and Behdad to get the thing changed. It's us who need to defend the text in several circles, and we can't do that if we are not convinced. > I am personally inclined towards a new and unfamiliar (but sounding > familiar) term without using the word "Khatt". That may work. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khatt e Farsi -- was khaat e Farsi
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 21:06, Ali A Khanban wrote: > Well, I am afraid that may cause some problems in the future, especially > some ugly political ones. Let me tell you a story. The first time we > tried to approach High Council of Informatics "showraaye aaliye > anformaatik" to discuss a Unicode proposal, they were against using > Unicode, just because the letters were named "Arabic letter ...". They > were of course mistaken, and it took a long time and effort to achieve > their support. I am sure Roozbeh still remembers those times. Sure I do. But the times are now different. There are new organizations, like the Language and Computer Council at the Persian Academy and the Technical Council of the Persian Language at Supreme Council of ICT. These new councils, filled with linguists and technologists, now understand the issue: they need a better name than just "khatt-e faarsi", and they call it "khatt-e arabi". They have also seen what Unicode has done for them on the web, and now see that names of technical things better be not a matter of nationalistic pride. > Now, first of all, we do not talk about script family. Everyone agrees > that Persian script belongs to the Arabic scripts family. We just say > "Persian script", and in a note we explain that this script belongs to > the Arabic scripts family. Please note that unlike western scripts that > can be called Latin script, there are many national and political > barriers and dilemmas, which prevent the nations on this side of the > world to call their script Arabic script. Choosing a very liberal, and > somehow radical, approach at the moment doesn't solve all of them! Well, it all seems that we are talking about different things when we use the term "script". I guess if we define the thing we are talking about in the document, things may get much easier. > Secondly, as I mentioned before, we clearly have in the constitution > that the name of both language and script are Farsi. If we provide a > document that will become official and in which refer to our script as > Arabic (no matter how we explain it in a note), that surely will have > some side-effects. This document is not official. It is a "recommendation" of Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc., and will only be a requirement of the Persian Linux project at the High Council of Informatics. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 20:31, C Bobroff wrote: > I believe Roozbeh, while typing the document was attempting to translate > "Perso-Arabic script" into Persian. Not an easy job. No, I was translating "Arabic script" into Persian. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 20:09, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > I am confused! Why people spell "khaat" with two a's? First I though > it is a typo, but it seems everybody is writing it like that. They perhaps wish to write it with two "t"s, but miss and type two "a".s > In my > opinion, this by itself makes Kufi a different 'script' than modern > Arabic. Then you may also wish to differentiate Gothic from normal Latin. But sorry, Unicode doesn't differentiate these, nor should good software. The logic is the same, the semantics are the same, so we can call it the same "script" (in Unicode terms). > Now, I guess my original suggestion of "Naskh" is technically correct, > if the following can add any weight to that choice: > http://www.ancientscripts.com/arabic.html > http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=56293 No, Nastalig is OK for Persian, so is Tahriri. We shouldn't require Naskh, or restrict Persian writing to Naskh. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
OT: GNOME/GNU (was Re: Mirroring in Unicode)
> our target system (GNOME/GNU/Linux) GNOME is a GNU project, of course. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Farsi vs Persian (Re: khaat e Farsi)
On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 12:32, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Don't know why, but it reminds me of the Persian vs. Farsi > problem... BTW, I just got my hand on the proceedings of The First Workshop on Persian Language and Computer, which took place on May 25 and 26 in the Faculty of Literature and Humanities of Tehran University. Most of the articles contain the word "faarsi" in the Persian title, and not a single one of the 58 refers to it as "Farsi" in the English title. They all call it "Persian". This is good news. Almost no one is *that* ignorant. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 10:26, Hooman Mehr wrote: > If we don't like the Arabic word, we may substitute something like > Islamic and call it Islamic Script. I don't mean to give it any > religious weight, but just substituting the physical origin (Arabia) > by culture that carried along this script into our country and a lot > of other countries and caused a single writing system to become a > family of closely related writing systems. Well, usually the script is religion-based. Currently, Latin usually means christian or secular, Cyrillic means communist, Arabic means Muslim, Hebrew means Jewish, ... But sorry, we don't want to invent anything here. > I suggest Roozbeh ask more expert (linguist) opinion to see if they > have a Persian term for the above concept -- at least within their > professional linguist circles. Already done. They prefer to call this the Arabic script, to differentiate it with writing the language in the Latin script, for example. BTW, experts don't necessary mean linguists here. There are also the "adib"s, which sometimes have different opinions. Some of the "adib"s may prefer "khatt-e faarsi", I'm sure. > This confusion among some potential audience of the document also > indicates that you may need to add a footnote to explain the meaning > of Arabic Script as intended in the locale document. Thanks to the finding of Ali Khanban, we will put that footnote, also referring to the text of the constitution and clarifying the context. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaate farsi
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:46, Peyman wrote: > The attached .jpg is a text from the book "pishineye zabane farsi" > written by Dr. Safavi. The text speaks about "styles", not "scripts". In other words, the text you forwarded is one level lower in the tree. In other words, the Arabic script may be written in different styles, Kufi, Naskhi, Suls, Nastaliq, ... The "Persian" that Dr Safavi specifies is in that classification. > PS: Sorry if the jpg quality is not good because the list doesn't > accept files bigger than 40KB You can put them somewhere on the web and send a URL for files larger than 40KB. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:28, Ali A Khanban wrote: > Again, I'd like to know if other Arabic-based scripts, such as Pashto > and Ordu, call themselves "Arabic script" in their locale. There doesn't exist a standardized locale for Urdu (or any non-standard one I may know of), but Pashto has one (which I helped prepare and is approved by their ministry of communication), and calls the script Arabic. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 21:03, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> They all call it Latin Script ("khatte laatin"), right?
BTW, while "khatte laatin" is OK, "khatte laatini" is preferred.
roozbeh
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 20:31, Ali A Khanban wrote: > but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called > Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu? Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[Fwd: Re: IRI funded projects like Persian Linux (Was Re: something else)]
I think Mehran intended to send this to the list. roozbeh -Forwarded Message- From: Mehran Mehr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: IRI funded projects like Persian Linux (Was Re: something else) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:01:29 +0430 Our Patched Pango is a black-box. And I think it's enough. But about feeding the patches: We try hard to feed the patches (You can search GNOME bugzilla for Soheil Hassas Yeganeh). BUT Owen Taylor is a very oveloaded person. These are some of the consequences. 1- Weak Maintenance of code and Slow Improvment pace (Owen can work at most 24 hours daily) 2- Undocumented Architecture and Design Concepts for Integrity Checking of the patches (Reasonable, because maintenance of documentations is much harder than maintenance of code) It's time for Owen to hand over Pango to another person (like Noah, or ...). --Mehran Roozbeh Pournader wrote: >On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 09:37, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > >>BTW, their patched Pango is next to useless to me, since there's >>no patch provided, no information about when they did check out >>Pango, etc. Roozbeh, can you ask them for a set of patches >>instead? >> >> > >Mehran Mehr and Soheil Hassas Yegane are members of this list. I hope >they'll answer. > > > >>I can probably help feeding the patches to Owen Taylor. >> >> > >All but one of the patches are already in Pango. The other patch was >something Owen didn't like and said he'll do in another way. It's in his >TODO for next minor release of Pango. > >roozbeh > > > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 19:50, C Bobroff wrote: > You can not specify one way in this case with personal names when it is > optional. Connie, you are not understand the purpose of the specification. Many other things may also be optional (like how to write "ordibehesht", "zi-hajje", or "hejdah"), but we are only allowing one, only because if two applications want to conform to the specification, they have (almost) the same behavior. > You don't have to require or forbid, you may say "acceptable" or "common". We are not describing the practice. We are recommending one option over another. A specification, or a standard, does require and forbid. > "all the time". Sorry! Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:27, C Bobroff wrote: > In this case, if the draft says says that one may not > mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either > that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. The draft is trying to specify *the one way* (or, well, *a* single way). Software localization for Persian may not be a great medium to celebrate diversity with. So the draft may either require it, or forbid it. We preferred to forbid it. > I see that written, especially > for authors on book titles all time. "all time"?! roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: IRI funded projects like Persian Linux (Was Re: something else)
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 09:37, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Come on. This is one of those tricks of yours ;-). Ah, I really didn't get you. > I mean how > many people you have seen *interested* in doing Open Source and > left without warning... Many. But I can't generalize such a rule to *every* case. > I don't get all this NGO thing. The money it comes from oil, > passing a handful of hops, divided by two a handful of times... Ah. Let's get away from this. I understand your position, and I don't disagree with it, but let me be hopeful. It may be more productive for a little while. > BTW, their patched Pango is next to useless to me, since there's > no patch provided, no information about when they did check out > Pango, etc. Roozbeh, can you ask them for a set of patches > instead? Mehran Mehr and Soheil Hassas Yegane are members of this list. I hope they'll answer. > I can probably help feeding the patches to Owen Taylor. All but one of the patches are already in Pango. The other patch was something Owen didn't like and said he'll do in another way. It's in his TODO for next minor release of Pango. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 08:42, C Bobroff wrote: > No kidding, you really typed all those Hamzeh's all by yourself?? Yes. Why are you wondering? > Do you agree that > sometimes you say, "behdaad-e esfahbod" and other times you say, "behdaad > esfahbod?" (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.) Yes. > And my next > question is going to be, "when?" I'm not sure. It really depends on the mood or the speed of speaking. > That should keep you busy for a while! You were wrong. ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian in Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)]
On Wed, 2004-06-09 at 01:46, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Any volunteer to import FarsiWeb's locale document into CLDR > please? The current Persian data in CLDR is absolute junk. I'll be doing that. Don't worry. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
[Fwd: New versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)]
-Forwarded Message- From: Rick McGowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: New versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:03:48 -0700 The Unicode Consortium announced today the release of new versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1) and the Locale Data Markup Language specification (LDML 1.1), providing key building blocks for software to support the world's languages. This new release contains data for 247 locales, covering 78 languages and 118 countries. There are also 36 draft locales in the process of being developed, covering an additional 17 languages and 7 countries. For more information, see http://news.google.com/news?q=CLDR Regards, Rick McGowan Unicode, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:55, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative > list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't > nothing. Yeah, that was not about Persian Computing. That was about internationalizing and localizing GNU/Linux software for Persian. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:51, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > These indeed look exciting, but in my laptop, not theirs. I'll try my best to get them on the laptop of everybody interested as early as possible. > Sure, if it really stays with *us*. "They'll be doing" is what I > asked if you still get excited about. They're planning early release cycles and a very open process, almost nothing confidential. > Man, how many yours you > have been in this business? I can't remember. Many. And seeing how little amount of output I have produced, I'm clearly a waster of my time, it seems. > No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results > wasting oil money. The project won't be run by IRI. It will be run by an NGO. > You know I'm so disappointed about the > National Persian Linux project. That project is generally wasting oil money, I agree. Better work can be done much cheaper with a much better quality. BTW, the Persian Computing community may be interested to see the technical output of certain projects there. I personally appreciate any discussion of the following documents here on this mailing list: Good (a specification and implementation for Persian fonts): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/10/opentype.zip Bad (a specification for the Iranian calendar): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar3.pdf http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar4.pdf Ugly (Compilation of some non-standard Persian fonts *released* by a project who is supposed to write a specification about requirements of a Persian keyboard driver for Linux): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/6/Farsi_Font_Linux_2.zip > I'm afraid not. I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically > prove it can't be solved. I'd be happy enough with that. I'll call that a solution. > (that bidi is not reversible > simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?) Can't get the idea. You need to elaborate. But it's OK with me if you want to close the thread. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:33, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but > Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't > have it anymore. And I don't even remember doing it! :'-( When was it? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:19, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: > Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing? That is *planned* for FarsiWeb's website. I'm sure Behnam Esfahbod and Elnaz Sarbar will announce here the good news about the new FarsiWeb website, when it became ready. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:24, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > What is the cursor problem exactly? Have you tried typing multilingual text in an editor like MS Windows' Notepad? The cursor, the selection, etc, are very hard to handle easily. You'll get mad very soon. > And why is it hard to solve? Because: 1) You need to remain Unicode compliant w.r.t bidi algorithm. 2) You need to edit everything, from normal text to marked up XML or LaTeX, and expected behavior is different with different kinds of text. 3) Different users have different expectations, so you need lots of configurability for different kind of users in different locales. > Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing? No. Unless you start one. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:15, Ali A Khanban wrote: > Th attachment should be a type, I guess. Yes, it is a typo. > Does that mean we should send our comments only to the above email and > not to this list? That means we appreciate it if it is sent to that email address. You're welcome to discuss any on-topic matter on the list of course. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 13:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project > which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited > by those words? I am excited, since I saw some output from the people involved: A commercial probabilistic English to Persian translation engine, a tagged corpus of pronunciations for lots of standard Persian, an OCR that worked wonderfully for handwritten disjoint Persian letters, and a script that inserted all the "kasre-ye ezaafe"s automatically (which worked not only on whole sentences, but even on things like book titles). Let's just say this: Isn't a database of famous people and places' names and their Persian translation not exciting if released as Open Source, something that tells you Democritus is "zimeghraatis" and Casablanca is "daar ol-beyzaa"? Specially if someone already has it? I get excited when I see people who have done something that stays with us. I get excited when they mention they'll be doing everything Open Source without anybody pushing them. And it was not only me. > IRI is IRI, period. Does that make everybody living in IRI a fool?! > By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor > problem at least. I know. But it's not something unsolvable by the FarsiWeb team, at least theoretically. You don't agree?! roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [History] My Story, part 1 (1236 words)
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 10:08, Hooman Mehr wrote: > The spelling used by Roozbeh is the > official spelling used on someone's passport -- if he does not insist > otherwise. I'm very sorry. I forgot that you spell it with "oo". > I insisted on Hooman spelling and got it even on my > passport. So do I, with "Roozbeh" (but not with "Pournader", which I prefer the way it is). roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 07:41, C Bobroff wrote: > On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > >http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf > > Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to > Hamzeh's! It's the same old one. Roozbeh Pournader himself. > But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no > ZWNJ on plural -Ha's? I tried doing it in the Academy's style, since we referring to the Persian Academy's style as normative. I personally hate that, and so do most of FarsiWeb staff, but we needed to be compliant here. Call that an experience... The Academy's style only puts "kasre-ye ezaafe"s when there is a clear ambiguity. And it writes "-haa" without a ZWNJ. > Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after > given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with > "Rezaa" ending in long "aa" but with "Mohsen" ending in a consonant? I > believe it is common to both write and pronounce the "-e" there between > given and family name. Please inform me. Please note that the specification doesn't discuss pronunciations at all. That only happens in one case (toman), where it better serves as a footnote. At the same time, the Academy doesn't like the Kasras, so... If that doesn't answer your question, please ask it in a different way ;) > By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and > it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all > the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards > from left to right. I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up > in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets! I don't know what may be the problem. I would be enlightened if you tell about PDF tricks you may know that can solve that kind of problems. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 22:50, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Over our dead body! The whole world is still to solve that > cursor movement problem, and you expect... I expect to solve that "ourselves" (say, FarsiWeb and FriBidi teams), at least for the perspective of Persian and Iranian users. Is it *that* hard? We don't need to pass over our own dead bodies. They will fund, we will solve their problem. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:41, Behnam wrote: > But for mortal > writers it's too complicated to master. The writer is not supposed to master TeX. The publisher is. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:43, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: > I bet you've never used MSFT word, have you? I had to use it for the > reports/thesis I did at Sharif (circa 1997-8). There is this feature > called 'Master Document' that is basically a binder for all kinds of > word files, and can handle the chapter/page numbering and such. (I am > talking about Word 6.0, the later versions should still have this feature). I use MS Word 2003 regularly. It's bad and sad, I can't have good change control with it, and I need to boot into MS Windows to use it, but it's working fine. I can't get fancy typesetting or automatic index generation with it, but it's generally OK for something like a report or a specification. But I won't try typesetting books in it. Even TeX-e-Parsi wasn't enough when I last typeset a book. It choked when I was using an automatically generated table of contents with a multiple numbering scheme for pages and non-standard footnotes. I needed to prepare the table of contents in a special separate run. I was not talking about small documents. I was talking about typesetting a whole seven-volume dictionary, with complex text and requirements. > Fortunately, I have a good pen now. I just use it to write :-) But unfortunately, you've forgotten where that Meem thing was on the Persian keyboard, Huh? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:20, C Bobroff wrote: > Now, do you have any more questions before [hopefully] heading off to bed? OK, my mom just called. She was a little upset. ;-) BTW, wait for the news from the next cool thing, called "tarh-e jaame'-e gostaresh-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi". The guys involved are wonderful (incomparable to any other such meetings I've attended), and they are planning to create things much better than your Sokhan Dictionary in the process, like a Persian equivalent of the Collins Cobuild dictionary. And at the same time, things like, let's say, a Unicode compliant text editor whose cursor doesn't jump around unexpectedly, and a standard about how to markup synchronous text, speech, and translations and then a tool to convert it to a web page (like what Connie does sometimes manually). And guess what? All the output will be Open Source! Keep a look here for saner announcements. I need to rush home. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [History] My Story, part 1 (1236 words)
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 11:19, Hooman Mehr wrote:
> P.S. 2: Roozbeh, and other old-timers: How about starting to write down
> your own memories concerning history of Persian Computing as well?
Come on guy, I'm not an old-timer. I started my career in Persian
Computing about when you were leaving it!
But anyway, it all started on a cold winter night, when I was trying to
typeset the problems of the mathematics olympiad camp (because of my
awful handwriting style) but I could find no cheap Persian typesetting
software affordable by a high school student that can typeset 2^{2^{n}}
in running text... Of course before that, I had my own adventures with
computers, including a two year experience of BASIC programming on
pieces of paper without ever touching a keyboard...
Houman, everybody here has a story like that. It's you who has been in
the field much more than the others, and that's the reason we appreciate
your story.
roozbeh
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 19:24, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: > Yeah, that and the fact that you really should have TONS of memory if > you want to have it all in one file, plus a dual processor (2000+ Mhz) > machine ;-) And even then, the quality will be incomparable with something typeset with, say, TeX-e-Parsi. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 18:55, C Bobroff wrote: > Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files? And managed all the numbering and sorting and all that by hand? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in proprietary software. The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping in the funding. I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar, Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me. Roozbeh Pournader Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:26, C Bobroff wrote: > That would be a problem. However, the bad entries can be edited out as > they are discovered. Who is to decide about what is bad? Are we professional linguists or dictionary writers? roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:20, C Bobroff wrote: > I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and > then to some publishing program. I'm sure both MS Word and MS Excel would crash under the weight of so much text. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Sun, 2004-06-06 at 10:04, C Bobroff wrote: > On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > > There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in > > Persian dictionary, > How is that possible when it's physically twice as big? Well, I was not talking literally. "Doesn't add *much*" may be better wording. The claim is that the work is based on Moin's heavily, and the new parts are not comparable in quality to Moin's work, with wrong etymologies, bad definitions, etc. > And now Pedram informs us it has a different approach, namely > *definitions* rather than *synonyms*. I can't confirm the definition vs synonyms part. I need to go ask, or check. I don't have either Moin's or Sokhan. We use Sadri-Afshar's "Farhang-e Faarsi-e Emrooz" mainly in FarsiWeb, since it has the modern sense of the words (but is sometimes inadequate, specially when decoding legal texts). > "Waste" is what's in our favor here! Sokhan stands to lose no money if > they just hand over the data and all rights. I don't agree. I believe the publisher has long time commercial interest in this (and won't be able to understand that this will actually help his sales, too). > It will be good publicity > for them! It will be. > I'm sure it has a million defects. For example, I found one word > "ghash-gir" meaning "book-end" and tried to use that on my Iranian friends > but they'd never heard of it. (I'm not sure if the word was incorrect or > you don't have book-ends in Iran! You know, the support you put at the end > of your shelf to keep your books from toppling over...) Don't test these things on those Iranian friends next time, then. They seem to not have heard many other things also ;-) BTW, the word is the only one I know for a book-end. And no, I personally don't use the thing because my shelfs are always more than full, but that thing is clearly called "ghash-gir" if someone knows the device and its name. I don't know any other Persian word for it. > I don't know if > all the modern words have been approved by the Academy. No one cares for that, in a dictionary. A good dictionary should have all the Academy-approved words, but it should list all the words in usage, approved by the slow Academy or not. > Dictionaries get superceded rapidly ... Not in Iran. Even if we want to be inclusive, there are only a few usable Persian dictionaries: Dehkhoda's, Sokhan, Amid's, Moin's, and Emrooz. That's all! And the only ones that *may* get updated are Sokhan and Emrooz. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Sun, 2004-06-06 at 09:59, C Bobroff wrote: > I think we all agree the Sukhan dictionary is going to waste in print > form. Well, as I mentioned already, there are people who believe it is a complete waste by itself, not only in print form ;) > > * Get it typed. > Can I not assume it was originally typed in MS Word and the data can be > uploaded in minutes? MS Word?!! You really believe a professional publisher can prepare Persian print quality books in MS Word?! There *have* been claims that MS Word 2003 does *something* for the first time in MS Word history that one can publish a professional-looking book with lots of efforts with it (I actually heard this from a publisher), but that's all. The books are usually prepared using software developed in Iran, like Zarnegar. In case of dictionaries, usually very specialized software is used to create a, say, Zarnegar document which can then be typeset. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Sat, 2004-06-05 at 20:41, Pedram Safari wrote: > The problem with encoding Persian into computer is rather fundamental > though, as there is no standard yet, not even for use in every-day life, You raise a valid point, but please note that this is not about encoding, but about *orthography*. Every publisher has the same problems, even if he doesn't use a computer to typeset his text. > Please see a very well written article by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani in > a recent issue of Nashr-e Danesh for this matter (don't have the exact > reference). We can try to scan the article and post the link to the list. BTW, Dr Masoumi-Hamedani has changed his stance on the matter recently, it seems. I heard this from him last Monday, but he didn't have the time to elaborate on the matter then. I can't get his exact opinion either, since he should be in France now and he's not coming back until about two months later, it seems. > for example Hezareh, as it has more > diversity in selecting word equivalents, and is more comprehensive. I agree that Hezareh is a good superset of Aryanpour. But the equivalents Persian terms are not always as good as "Bateni". roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Nazanin
On Sun, 2004-06-06 at 09:53, C Bobroff wrote: > For making documents to print on paper or to be used as graphics, your > best bet is still Borna Rayaneh: > http://www.bornaray.com/en_fonts.asp?fn=per_fonts&rfn=en_fonts&parent=fontslist&Grand=Main I really believe that the current FarsiWeb fonts are much better than Borna ones in standards conformance and quality. The variety is less, of course. > Note: these fonts are in the beta-testing stage and are not > perfect yet even though the Farsiweb staff has hundreds of thousands of > staff members on the job. (Just kidding, I think there are 2 or 3 people > total??) Less than that. Staff were working on that, but the fonts will not be changed much more. Apart from fixing bugs (that Behnam Esfahbod and I will do), there is some legal cleanup, adding history, etc. > The greatest mystery of all: How can it be that the Iranian community in > the United States which is the richest and most prosperous immigrant > community of all has not bothered to get together and have a proper > Persian font made and instead are waiting for Microsoft to provide it? Maybe them not spending for such projects has made them the richest? ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian fonts
Hi Arafat, The fonts are prepared by the FarsiWeb project. Please contact me off-list for the details about the task. Roozbeh Pournader ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Miscellaneous web issues
On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 21:08, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > I did this, and installed the new DLL on my system, and it works beatifully. > It's the same keyboard layout, only Shift+Space inserts a ZWNJ instead of a > space. I thought I would submit it to sourceforge so that everyone can use > the new tool. Roozbeh, let me know if it would be okay for me to send the > files to you to get them into the sourceforge, or if I should do something > else. I would appreciate if you send me the exact process you used and the DLL, so we can publish it on the FarsiWeb website on SourceForge. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 07:46, C Bobroff wrote: > Now,I wonder if some of you who are so experienced technically could do > another dictionary project? At least as far as getting the data up in a > legal way and then others could make the interface according to the needs > of the target audience and connect with English and other languages. > For example, I think this very nice dictionary is a complete waste as it > is available only in printed form in unmanageable 8 volumes: > AUTHOR Anvari, Hasan > TITLEFarhang-e bozorg-e Sokhan / beh sarparasti-e Hasan Anvari > PUBL INFOTehran : Sokhan, 1381 [2002] > ISBN 9646961983 (set) > > It is in very clear typesetting, has latin transliteration, many idioms > (estellah), examples of how to use in sentences, new words, dialect > variations, etc. There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in Persian dictionary, and is a real waste of paper and shelf space. I've heard oral critiques by Dr Masoumi-Hamedani (head of the Persian Academy's Language and Computer group) and Mr Pourmomtaz (a linguist, and the head of "tarh-e jaame'-e kaarbari-e zabaan-e faarsi"). I'm not into the game of ethymology etc, but can ask the people who claimed such for more details, if you insist. > I'm sure this dictionary must have been funded by the Iranian government > and no profits expected. This was funded by a private publisher, as far as I know. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Misinformation!
On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 20:04, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > Is there a trustworhty easy-to-read document somewhere on the Internet > that mentions all this issues that I can refer people to it? I don't know "easy to read" may mean. Perhaps Connie's pages are the best for that. For the more technical type, there is always ISIRI 6219. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Misinformation!
On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 18:03, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > Behdad, does Unicode consortium provide a search collation table in > addition to the collation table used for sorting? Or can the same > table be used for this seach purposes as well? Well, I'm not Behdad, but I guess I have some answers. The first answer is: no, the Unicode Consortium doesn't provide any collation table for sorting. The second answer is: Yes, you can use the same table for searching. For example, you can use the data to ignore secondary and tertiary differences in you string comparison for a loose matching. But please note that the table is just there for the cases that you don't know anything about the locale. For Persian, the table needs to be tailored heavily. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Miscellaneous web issues
On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 17:43, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > Well, maybe you're right, but I don't see how a text editor is supposed to > know the encoding of a file without some kind of mark. Does Latin-1 (an old encoding of text files for Western Europe, also called ISO 8859-1) had a mark to distinguish it from, say, CP1256 (an old MS encoding for Arabic language)? Did ASCII have a mark? No. Text files are text files. They are not supposed to have marks to distinguish their character set. The character set of a text file should be in the metadata (file name, file system, environment variable, HTTP header, MIME header, ...) or it should be auto-detected (UTF-8 is really easy to detect, since it has a very regular mathematical pattern, UTF-16 is also easy to detect, since it's recommended that it has a BOM), or it should be specified by the user when he is opening a file. > Plain text files have no means of > identifying the character encoding, That is somehow true. Plain text files have *sometimes* no means of identifying the character encoding *by themselves*. > so a single text file can be interpreted > as UTF-7, UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-32, etc. if there's nothing to declare the > exact character encoding used. UTF-7 is deprecated. UTF-16 and UTF-32 *do* have BOM marks in the standards defining them, so it's OK if they use a BOM. UTF-8 doesn't have that. Nor does ASCII, CP1256, Latin-1, etc. > The point here is that, protocols which do not allow BOM are those who > provide other means of specifying the character encoding. The point is that Notepad doesn't add a mark to Latin-1 or CP1256, why should it add one to UTF-8?! > A certain byte > stream can have multiple interpretations depending on what content encoding > you use to interpret it, and there must be some way to cut off this > confusion. Yes, by either Metadata, auto-detection, or specific selection. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Miscellaneous web issues
On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 17:43, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > Would there be any way to assign ZWNJ to Shift+Space by coding the > keyboard layout tool manually? If you can send me the C/C++ source file > off-list, I'll try to investigate it further. There is no C/C++ source file. The source is a data file that MSKLC compiles into the DLL. If the data file contains ZWNJ on shift-space, it fails to compile. Microsoft developers confirmed that this is a bug. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar
On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 05:03, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > Farsiweb should prepare -- if that is in the scope of FarsiWeb's work > -- a draft of a recommended practice for implementing date conversion > involving calendars used in Iran. This document will of course change > over time, as long as better conversion methods are derived. This is in the interest of FarsiWeb, but we don't have the time currently. It seems that you have done some deep looking into the subject. Why don't you write it? I'm sure you can write it from a better perspective, and both the FarsiWeb staff and the PersianComputing community can provide you with comments. Both FarsiWeb and Connie can provide hosting or links, I'm sure. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar
On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 01:40, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > I downloaded and tested a few dates with the Win32 executable of > Jalali (the one at sourceforge). The bad news is that, the conversion > is not correct. > The conversion is wrong for 20 March 2005, and similarly a few other > dates that should convert to 30 Esfand Year YYLP, instead all such > dates convert either to 1 Farvardin YYLP or 1 Esfand YYLP, depending > on how the date os set to 20 March 2005. The good news is that, the > jalali.c source does convert such dates correctly. Thanks for telling us. We forgot to update the MS Windows executable. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Hooman Mehr (was: Iranian Calendar)
On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 19:46, Hooman Mehr wrote: > One more thing, the reason that I may seem talented for story telling > is that I am an INFP (http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP.html), so > be-warned. Ah, I can't confirm that, since it's too psychological. But Hooman talks a lot! ;) I can't forget him and Mehran Mehr (of CyberMehr) *standing* and talking for around six hours, perhaps to see who resigns first! (And he is wise, deep, and experienced, no one can deny that.) Let me start with my story about Hooman. It was before FarsiWeb was born (it was 1998 or 1997, I guess), when we still worked on FarsiTeX, and we were trying to add a new font to FarsiTeX. A colleague, Hadi Karimi, had found about Hooman and his company, Quartz Computer, and we went and met him there. It was a long and productive session, when we learned about Multiple Master fonts (and how they are different from METAFONTs), Adobe's localization process, The euro conversion and its implication of existing software, Unicode's lack of "Subscript Alef" for Persian, etc. Hadi got page-size prints of the Azin font, and I got a good perspective of Persian computing issues as Hooman looks at them. And ah, I knew him before that. His name was mentioned in ISIRI 2901 and ISIRI 3342, and he had written the most sensible article in the issue of "khabarnaame-ye anformaatik" which was about the ISIRI 3342 standard. He clearly mentioned there that ISIRI 3342 doesn't conform to the requirements of the ISO 8859 set of standards, something that I found about its importance years later. I didn't meet him again until 2003, when he came to Sharif trying to find the FarsiWeb people. I was very very busy at the moment, and not knowing him, was trying to get rid of him! When he only told me his name, I canceled everything else I was doing at the moment. It ended a long frustration period of mine which I was thinking there is no person I can learn from in the field who is still in Iran. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar
On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 04:47, hameed afssari wrote: > Microsoft Lunar Hijri calendar is based on Calculation of Saudi > Arabian Authority and not Kuwait ... I can't confirm that. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar where it specifically mentions that: Microsoft uses the "Kuwaiti algorithm" to convert Gregorian dates to the Islamic ones. It is based on statistical analysis of historical data from Kuwait. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar
On Mon, 2004-05-24 at 10:28, Ordak D. Coward wrote: > Another way to interpret this email is that Birashk's method fails to > correctly predict the year 1403, and hence if we use that mehtod, all > dates in year 1404 will be off by one day. On the other hand, using > the 33 year period mentioned above works fine until year 1468. That's it! I was waiting for someone to raise this. :) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Miscellaneous web issues
On Thu, 2004-05-20 at 16:07, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > > You can re-live its creation here in the archives: > > http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2003-June/0 > 00538.html > [snip] > > Thanks for the links. Seems like a very handy keyboard. BTW, why the > Shift-Space combination does not work? Bug in Microsoft keyboard layout creation tool. Use "Shift-B" temporarily. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Miscellaneous web issues
On Thu, 2004-05-20 at 01:48, C Bobroff wrote: > Roozbeh, is it not time to remove the "experimental" from its name? No. This has not become a national standard yet. When it becomes a national standard (and possibly changing a little at the time), we'll remove experimental from the name. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 14:05, Hooman Mehr wrote: > The fact that Iranian authorities in this regard act as if they are > directly appointed by God is another story... Don't get hot, please. roozbeh PS: Where is this admin hat? I left it just here last time! :'-( roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar (P.S.)
On Wed, 2004-05-19 at 10:25, C Bobroff wrote: > Is there any way to type a hyphen > that will resist break-up during wrapping? Use the "Insert | Symbol" menu in MS Word for lots of other things also, copyright symbols, non-breaking spaces, longer dashes, ... roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Miscellaneous web issues
On Tue, 2004-05-18 at 23:13, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: > and Notepad is not an HTML editor What is notepad? A text editor? Text editors should not insert a UTF-8 BOM either. The problem is that Microsoft sometimes invents non-standard things and then pushes it so hard that Unicode adds it to parts of the standard (or an FAQ). "Microsoft conventions for .txt files" in the Unicode FAQ looks sarcastic to me. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 2004-05-16 at 16:02, Omid K. Rad wrote: > I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found > many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of > the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance. Ah, that's an "Eghbal" calendar. They compute the calendar themselves and specially have certain calendars for astrology uses. I won't consider that an authoritative calendar. Anyway, since we are going to recommend one thing, FarsiWeb will stick with "mordaad" in written form. We understand the problems, but it looks unavoidable. I will personally try to raise the issue in the next Persian Academy meeting I attend. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
