Re: [Biofuel] A wealth of manuals

[Greg and April]

Here is other Tech - know how - stuff by 
the same group, 5 CD's in this case.
 
http://www.cd3wd.com/HDL/index.htm
 
 
Greg H.
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 13:56
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A wealth of 
  manuals
  
  Update 3 March - DOWNLOADS have been temporaily suspended!
  Sorry - we are suspending downloads temporarily, since the bandwidth 
  load was too great, and has been adversely affecting browing. 
   
  http://www.cd3wd.com/CD3WD/
   
   
  Whoa!
   
  ...Mike
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] A wealth of manuals

[Greg and April]

Keith,

I just found this bit of info ( below ), at a different part of the web 
site.

Greg H.


Update 27 February 2006 - DOWNLOADS are about to become easier!

We are now victims of our own success - people are trying to download the 
complete CD3WD product at such a rate that our systems are creaking, 
downloads are very slow, and sometimes/often fail before completion. In 
order to fix this problem with our zero budget, we will be issuing downloads 
(which are still free and will remain free in perpetuity) through 
www.download.com - which as you may know is a major global download site 
with tremendous capacity and infrastructure - as of about 12 March 2006.




- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 17:16
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A wealth of manuals


> Damn, so it's not just me then, that's a pity. You'd expect a bit of
> speed with a name like "sleekfreak", not very streamlined. I'll keep
> trying though, there are some books there I've been after for awhile.
>
> Thanks Greg
>
> Best
>
> Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] A wealth of manuals

[Greg and April]

I tried it and was getting a whopping 2.5 KB/sec, but that still would have 
been better than 4 days to download.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:34
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A wealth of manuals


> Hi Kirk
>
> Nice finds! Thanks.
>
> This one seems to be in Christmas Island - cx - and it's very slow!
> Downloading the 650Mb CD is an appealing prospect, but not at 1kb/sec
> and then it stalls. I'll try again tomorrow.
>
> Thanks for the blacksmithing manuals link too, I started doing some
> blacksmithing a few months ago, I did what I set out to do and the
> results are good, but I've got lots to learn.
>
> Regards
>
> Keith
>
>
>>A wealth of how-to/gardening/energy manuals -- including the whole
>>collection ready to burn to disk (at top)
>>
>>
>>http://sleekfreak.ath.cx:81/3wdev/CD3WD/INDEX.HTM
>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic watertreatment

[Greg and April]

Until you take the human influence ( conscious  or subconscious ) and other
variables from the results, there is no way to do any conclusive scientific
test.Without any conclusive scientific testing, there is no proof.

Just because there are cars on the road that use magnets, and they appear to
work, is no teat or proof that they work.The owners could very easily be
subconscious be easier on the throttle, which in turn make it appear that
the magnets are indeed working.One can just as easily say that Mutually
Assured Destruction worked, so it is a good thing to have nuclear weapons.

NOT.

Just because something appears to work, does not mean that it actualy does,
unless conclusive scientific testing - that eliminates any other possible
variables as the actual reason for the improvement, proves it does.

*** Sorry Keith, but, it's time for the pro-magnet crowd to put up
verifiable testing or cut the yacking about something that is not proven to
work - we may as well be talking about Zero point energy, cold fusion, or
perpetual motion machines ***


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Andres Secco" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:28
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic
watertreatment


Greg,
My experience is totally different and disagree with your concepts of  "no
real proofs".
There are thousands of cars, cooling towers and boilers running with magnets
with very good results.
Better fosil fuel yield no fouling are the reported results.
Of course if someone wants to "pasteurize" or sterilize water is unlikely to
do it with magnets.
Magnets do not make miracles but say that there is a waste of time to use
them is too much.

----- Original Message - 
From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditionersandmagnetic water
treatment


> Mike,
>
> You have made a statement that really stands out as to how unreliable the
> science of magnetism really is.
>
> Ozone is now a proven technology for many things, including purification
> of
> water, while 30 years ago it was in the realm of junk science.
>
> Yet, after 30 years, magnets are still in the realm of junk science (
> sounds
> good - maybe even possible, but no real proof ).
>
> One would think that thirty years would be plenty of time to establish the
> how and why it works and be accepted by the mainstream science community.
> Yet, magnets are still have not been proven by scientific trials.
>
> You mention trials by putting them on fuel pipelines, and watching the
> differences in the amount of wax build up, but, there is no proof in that.
>
> The amount of wax in fuel varies with the time of the year, and the
> particular fuel flowing through the pipeline.The same pipeline will
> handle ( in order of decreasing wax content ) heating oil ( Diesel #4 ),
> vehicle diesel in the summer( Diesel #2 ), vehicle Diesel in the winter (
> Diesel #1 or a blend of #1 and #2 depending on how cold the area get's,
> that
> the fuel is going to ) and possibly kerosene depending on the area.
>
> A build up of wax that occurred when heating oil is being pumped through
> the
> pipeline, will dissolve when diesel #1 or kerosene is being pumped through
> the pipeline.
>
> Wax buildup is also more likely to occur during the late winter / early
> spring, time frame after a long period of cold temps have cooled down the
> soil that the pipeline runs through - granted, at the depth the pipeline
> is,
> the temperature difference would only amount to a few degrees, but, even a
> few degrees, can make a difference, with a increase or decrease in wax
> build
> up with the different fuels.
>
> Without controlling the variables, other that using or not using magnets,
> it
> is not a verifiable test, nor is it scientific by any means.
>
>
> Greg H.
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike McGinness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 18:25
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners andmagnetic
> water treatment
>
>
> SNIP
>>
>> These same magnets are sold for magnetic water conditioning. So is ozone,
> which has moved from the realm of sudo
>> science in the USA 30 years ago, to a point now where it is used instead
> of chlorine in nearly 50% of US drinking
>> water supply systems.
>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners andmagnetic water treatment

[Greg and April]

Mike,

You have made a statement that really stands out as to how unreliable the
science of magnetism really is.

Ozone is now a proven technology for many things, including purification of
water, while 30 years ago it was in the realm of junk science.

Yet, after 30 years, magnets are still in the realm of junk science ( sounds
good - maybe even possible, but no real proof ).

One would think that thirty years would be plenty of time to establish the
how and why it works and be accepted by the mainstream science community.
Yet, magnets are still have not been proven by scientific trials.

You mention trials by putting them on fuel pipelines, and watching the
differences in the amount of wax build up, but, there is no proof in that.

The amount of wax in fuel varies with the time of the year, and the
particular fuel flowing through the pipeline.The same pipeline will
handle ( in order of decreasing wax content ) heating oil ( Diesel #4 ),
vehicle diesel in the summer( Diesel #2 ), vehicle Diesel in the winter (
Diesel #1 or a blend of #1 and #2 depending on how cold the area get's, that
the fuel is going to ) and possibly kerosene depending on the area.

A build up of wax that occurred when heating oil is being pumped through the
pipeline, will dissolve when diesel #1 or kerosene is being pumped through
the pipeline.

Wax buildup is also more likely to occur during the late winter / early
spring, time frame after a long period of cold temps have cooled down the
soil that the pipeline runs through - granted, at the depth the pipeline is,
the temperature difference would only amount to a few degrees, but, even a
few degrees, can make a difference, with a increase or decrease in wax build
up with the different fuels.

Without controlling the variables, other that using or not using magnets, it
is not a verifiable test, nor is it scientific by any means.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike McGinness" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 18:25
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] So called magnetic fuel conditioners andmagnetic
water treatment


SNIP
>
> These same magnets are sold for magnetic water conditioning. So is ozone,
which has moved from the realm of sudo
> science in the USA 30 years ago, to a point now where it is used instead
of chlorine in nearly 50% of US drinking
> water supply systems.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] [wastewatts] FYI - US commerical production ofdieselmotorcycle to start.

[Greg and April]

I have an '76 Honda "Trail Blazer" with less than 1000 original miles on it,
that I can't seem to get working.

I and 2 others have worked on it, and none of us have been able to figure
out why I can't get a spark at the plug, unless the wire in the sparkplug
cable has a hidden break ( try and find a replacement sparkplug cable ).

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Evergreen Solutions" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 21:13
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [wastewatts] FYI - US commerical production
ofdieselmotorcycle to start.


> I guess my question is the proverbial "why?", with the common sigh
> associated with the niche market of diesel vehicles in the US.
>
> If you can find one for 6k, give me a link please. I'm currently
> looking for a bike like the old 79cc honda my friend used to have for
> my girlfriend.
>
> And with 11 seconds to 60mph, that's good enough for someone who's
> driving it for economy but TERRIBLE for someone driving it for fun, or
> even safety.
>
> I've got an 82 kawasaki 440kz ltd, and I get 60mpg on gas and leave
> most cars in the dust. I paid $600 for it last year, complete w/ a
> spare motor, haha, and it's been fun rebuilding/resynching carbs and
> learning about the bike.
>
> In other news...I have a friend who built a trike out of an old harley
> frame and a VW diesel motor. I bet he doesn't have 18k into it...and
> it has reverse.
>
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Re: [Biofuel] [wastewatts] FYI - US commerical production of dieselmotorcycle to start.

[Greg and April]

That's the estimated price for the limited edition model.

I don't know if the production model is going to be that price.I would
be extremely surprised if the full production model is that pricey,  since
they are going to have to compete with Royal Enfield bikes already on the US
market.

I do know that the Kawasaki 650 ( the bike that the military model based
on ), runs in the $ 6-7 K range ( as of last spring ).

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Evergreen Solutions" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 17:09
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [wastewatts] FYI - US commerical production of
dieselmotorcycle to start.


> MSR $18,999
>
> ...Wait...what?
>
> Someone's kidding, right?
>
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Re: [Biofuel] [wastewatts] FYI - US commerical production of diesel motorcycle to start.

[Greg and April]

Ok, I found out some more 
info.
 
Currently, undergoing a final 
review of Federal and State regulations with regards to commercial 
motorcycles.
 
2006 models will be a limited production 
run of 200, that uses the same engine as the military model.
 
For the limited production models 
- 
A limited number of custom colors and 
graphics will be available
Custom military tool kit, equipped for 
adventure touring
Gearing will be customized to 
the rider's preference for on-road, off-road, or adventure touring.
 
MSR $18,999, subject to 
change until release
 
Due to interest, the company 
is currently evaluating the feasibility of offering the military model for 
commercial sale.
 
More info:    
http://www.m1030.com/newsletter/newsletter_nov_05.htm
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Greg and April 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org ; 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 8:15
  Subject: [wastewatts] FYI - US commerical 
  production of diesel motorcycle to start.
  HDT USA to start commercial production of diesel fuel 
  motorcycles in March 2006.http://www.m1030.com/models.htm  
  ( click on "D650A1Bulldog" )"With a world class rolling chassis, the 
  proven performance and durability of the M1030M1 Military Motorcycle engine, 
  the spectacular patriotic graphics, and over 102 mpg, the Diesel fueled 
  D650A1Bulldog is a true "triple threat", winner for sport touring, on/off road 
  riding, and everyday commuting. Production is scheduled for March of 
  2006.:"  I am waiting for more information, and will pass it on 
  when I receive it. Greg H.[Non-text 
  portions of this message have been removed]
  SPONSORED 
  LINKS 
  


  Diesel 
engines 
  Wood 
waste 
  Wood 
waste basket 

  Internal 
combustion engine 
  Vegetable 
oil 
  
  
  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS 
  
 Visit your group "wastewatts" on the 
web.  
 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email 
to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  

 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 

  
  
  
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[Biofuel] FYI - US commerical production of diesel motorcycle to start.

[Greg and April]

HDT USA to start commercial production of 
diesel fuel motorcycles in March 2006.
 
http://www.m1030.com/models.htm  ( click on "D650A1Bulldog" )

"With a world class rolling chassis, the proven performance and 
durability of the M1030M1 Military Motorcycle engine, the spectacular patriotic 
graphics, and over 102 mpg, the Diesel fueled D650A1Bulldog is a true "triple 
threat", winner for sport touring, on/off road riding, and everyday commuting. 
Production is scheduled for March of 2006.:"  
I am waiting for more information, and will pass it 
on when I receive it. 
 
Greg H.
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Sudden Infant Death Syndrome

[Greg and April]

Our cat's would climb in the crib and snuggle down next to the babies, and
the babies would snuggle right back.If the baby started fussing, the
cats would sit up and " wait for the wife or I to make that noisy thing
quiet again.

It got to one point that when my son was about 8-9 months, he actualy would
go to sleep faster when a cat would join him.Usually it was the big tom,
that would climb in and just start purring and my son would just be asleep
in no time.Our son is now 6 and any cat that isn't on our bed, is more
than likely on his bed, and he still goes to sleep faster with a cat with
him.


I'll say this, that big male, is friendly as all get out, and while he would
take the rough play, but, would smack any kid that would be mean.That is
one smart cat, and appears to know the difference between play ( even rough
play ) and harassment.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Jeromie Reeves" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 10:21
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sudden Infant Death Syndrome


> That is not entirely a "old wives tale". In 80/81 my little brother
> would have issues when our cat would
> get into his crib to try and drink his bottle. While it never killed him
> he did get upset. I can see how a
> child who is alergic, or if the cat is large, could possibly hurt a
infant.
>
> Jeromie
>
>
> Greg and April wrote:
>
> >Let's not forget of the old wives tale of cat's laying on infants,
> >smothering them.
> >
> >Greg H.
> >
> >
> >- Original Message - 
> >From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: 
> >Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 20:47
> >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sudden Infant Death Syndrome
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>This an interesting hypothesis, but it brings to mind a question and a
> >>
> >>
> >comment
> >
> >
> >>what were infants dying of prior to the initiation of the use of flame
> >>
> >>
> >retardants?  Crib deaths are
> >
> >
> >>reported in medical literature from early in the nineteenth century, and
> >>
> >>
> >anecdotally much earlier
> >
> >
> >>still- at least this suggests multiple causes.
> >>
> >>
> >>This should be a no brainer to resolve.  Arsenic and Antimony could
easily
> >>
> >>
> >be detected in post
> >
> >
> >>mortem tissue.  It seems strange that nobody has reported any autopsy
> >>
> >>
> >data, showing elevated levels
> >
> >
> >>of the metals. For that matter has anybody done simple collection of
> >>
> >>
> >samples from the air above or
> >
> >
> >>around the mattresses and shown the presence of the toxic gases?
> >>
> >>personally, I am skeptical as usual.  show me data, not speculation, and
I
> >>
> >>
> >will be convinced- it's
> >
> >
> >>as simple as that.
> >>
> >>toodles
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Sudden Infant Death Syndrome

[Greg and April]

Let's not forget of the old wives tale of cat's laying on infants,
smothering them.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 20:47
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sudden Infant Death Syndrome


> This an interesting hypothesis, but it brings to mind a question and a
comment
>
> what were infants dying of prior to the initiation of the use of flame
retardants?  Crib deaths are
> reported in medical literature from early in the nineteenth century, and
anecdotally much earlier
> still- at least this suggests multiple causes.
>
>
> This should be a no brainer to resolve.  Arsenic and Antimony could easily
be detected in post
> mortem tissue.  It seems strange that nobody has reported any autopsy
data, showing elevated levels
> of the metals. For that matter has anybody done simple collection of
samples from the air above or
> around the mattresses and shown the presence of the toxic gases?
>
> personally, I am skeptical as usual.  show me data, not speculation, and I
will be convinced- it's
> as simple as that.
>
> toodles
>


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Re: [Biofuel] plastic from oil

[Greg and April]

Thanks Diego.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Diego 
  Aguilera 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 
  8:14
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] plastic from 
  oil
  
  Hi Greg!
   
  Well I googled your question and found this from Cheveron, sorry if I 
  happend to step on any toes.
  http://www.chevron.com/products/about/elsegundo/about/what_we_do.asp
   
  " (...) Here's what just one barrel of crude oil can produce:
  
Enough liquefied gases (such as propane) to fill 12 small (14.1 ounce) 
cylinders for home, camping or workshop use. 
Enough gasoline to drive a medium-sized car (17 miles per gallon) over 
280 miles. 
Asphalt to make about one gallon of tar for patching roofs or streets. 
Lubricants to make about a quart of motor oil. 
Enough distillate fuel to drive a large truck (five miles per gallon) 
for almost 40 miles. If jet fuel fraction is included, that same truck can 
run nearly 50 miles. 
Nearly 70 kilowatt hours of electricity at a power plant generated by 
residual fuel. 
About four pounds of charcoal briquettes. 
Wax for 170 birthday candles or 27 wax crayons. 
  There are enough petrochemicals left in that same barrel to provide the 
  base for one of the following:
  

39 polyester shirts 

750 pocket combs 
540 toothbrushes 
65 plastic dustpans 
23 hula hoops 
65 plastic drinking cups 
195 one-cup measuring cups 
11 plastic telephone housings 
135 four-inch rubber balls 
  
  The lighter materials in a barrel are used mainly for paint thinners and 
  dry-cleaning solvents and they can make nearly a quart of one of these 
  products. The miscellaneous fraction of what is left still contains enough 
  by-products to be used in medicinal oils, still gas, road oil and plant 
  condensates -- a real industrial horn of plenty. (...)" 
   
  Hope its useful!
  Cheers!
   
  Diego
   
  On 1/20/06, Greg and 
  April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote: 
  

My bad for not being more specific in 
what I'm trying to find.    
 
I am trying to find what percentage of 
oil ( and oil products ), is used for things like making plastic, 
asphalt, tar, and the like, and not used directly for 
fuel.
 
Greg H.
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Greg and April 

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:15
Subject: plastic from oil
 
Perhaps I have not been using the 
correct search words, but, I have been looking but have not been able to 
find what percentage of oil goes into making plastics.
 
Does someone have any idea what it 
might be?
 
Greg 
H.___Biofuel 
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[Biofuel] plastic from oil

[Greg and April]

My bad for not being more specific in what 
I'm trying to find.    
 
I am trying to find what percentage of oil 
( and oil products ), is used for things like making plastic, asphalt, tar, 
and the like, and not used directly for fuel.
 
Greg H.
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Greg 
and April 
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 

Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:15
Subject: plastic from oil

Perhaps I have not been using the correct 
search words, but, I have been looking but have not been able to find what 
percentage of oil goes into making plastics.
 
Does someone have any idea what it might 
be?
 
Greg H.
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[Biofuel] plastic from oil

[Greg and April]

Perhaps I have not been using the correct 
search words, but, I have been looking but have not been able to find what 
percentage of oil goes into making plastics.
 
Does someone have any idea what it might 
be?
 
Greg H.
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[Biofuel] FYI Monsanto Buys Seminis and enters the vegtable seed market

[Greg and April]

I thought people would be 
interested.
 
Greg H.
 
 
Maybe you’ve never heard of Seminis, but if 
you’ve ever perused these pages, you’ve almost undoubtedly tasted Seminis. 
Celebrity, Big Beef and Sweet Baby Girl tomatoes, North Star, Red Knight and Fat 
’n Sassy peppers, Mars and Candy onions, Yellow Doll and Jade Star watermelons, 
the Seneca squashes—all are Seminis varieties. 
 
Cont
http://www.fedcoseeds.com/seeds/monsanto.htm
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Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil

[Greg and April]

Wal-Mart is not a local government.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 6:50
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil


if that were true, wouldn't walmart be in big trouble vis-a-vis purchases
from china?



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Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil

[Greg and April]

Todd,

There is a world of difference between a non-profit organization buying cut
rate fuel for the use of non-profit distribution to the poor, and a local
government buying cut rate fuel for use in a 'for profit' program, even if
it is supposed to benefit the poor.

If Chicago was to buy the cut rate fuel, there would eventually be allot
scandal issues, with accusation and counter accusation about members of the
local government benefiting & taking advantage from the cost difference.
Eventually things would have ended up in court ( an expensive place ).
This is what Chicago avoided by declining the fuel.

OTOH, if a non-profit organization was to buy the fuel at the cut rate, and
sell it to Chicago at the market price, then use the money gained to
distribute special discount bus passes to the poor, then the poor would
benefit, and the government could not.The same thing could have been
achieved if the Citgo sold the fuel at market price, and gave a non-profit
origination the difference between the money to reimburse the poor of
Chicago for difference in the cost of the more expensive bus passes.

What I am saying, is that arrangements could have been different, that would
allow the poor to benefit, without bringing Venezuela by way of Citgo and
the government of Chicago directly into contact.There should be a
non-political organization that does not benefit in any way between Citgo
and the poor of Chicago to avid the taint of corruption & bribery.** It
should be this way even if it was a domestic oil company that was donating
the fuel. **

Greg H.

Why are lemmings better than politicians?
Lemmings only take themselves of cliffs.
Politicians try to send you ahead telling you what a favor they are doing
you to let you go first!



- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 22:30
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil


Large difference between signing a treaty and signing a contract.

Until such time as some form of federal embargo is placed against
Venezuela, the market remains open and there are no restrictions against
such a transaction.

Todd Swearingen



Greg and April wrote:

>Not really.
>
>See a previous post with the subject - Venezuela Oil Fields Back in State
>Control, from Keith Addison:
>
>"In 2001, it passed a new law requiring oil production to be carried out by
>companies majority-owned by the government."
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Marty Phee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:04
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>
>
>Very true, but wouldn't they be signing a contract with Citgo and not
>Venezuela.
>
>
>
>Greg and April wrote:
>
>
>>IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities to make treaties with
>>foreign nations, as such an agreement might be considered.
>>
>>
>>Greg H.
>>
>>
>>- Original Message - 
>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: 
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 23:56
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>>
>>
>>http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2710
>>
>>Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>>
>>by Jessica Pupovac (bio)
>>
>>As Chicago's poorest face an increase to already-high public transit
>>fees, the city is ignoring an offer of discounted diesel fuel to
>>benefit low-income people.
>>Chicago, Dec 28, 2005 - The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an
>>opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in
>>the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting
>>deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum
>>Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget
>>shortfalls.
>>
>>In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit
>>Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city
>>officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost
>>diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan
>>President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings
>>on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.
>>
>>But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the
>>CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according
>>to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation.
>>
>>According to Venezuela's consul general in Chicago, Martin Sanchez,
>>the CTA has yet to

Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil

[Greg and April]

It is one thing to distribute heating oil at a discount through local
non-profit charities, it is another to give a local government, a discount
on fuel that is used on a for profit program.

An agreement between a foreign government owned company and a local
government is an agreement between 2 governments, the company is just a
front for one of the governments.

It could be argued in court that the foreign government was trying to
influence the local populace or politicians, and the below cost fuel was a
bribe, since the fuel could be used to make a profit.That is why
treaties between local US governments and foreign nations are illegal.

If Chicago gave up all of it's busses to a private non-profit organization,
not connected with any government, there should be no legal problems, with
the non-profit organization accepting the fuel, and using it to run the
busses - using the bus fairs to pay for the fuel and running and maintance
of the busses.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:13
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil



This is a delivery agreement with a US company
Citgo owned by Venezuela and a US city, regarding
deliveries of discounted energy. I fail to see what might be illegal.

Hakan


At 16:17 05/01/2006, you wrote:
>IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities to make treaties with
>foreign nations, as such an agreement might be considered.
>
>
>Greg H.
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 23:56
>Subject: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>
>
>http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2710
>
>Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>
>by Jessica Pupovac (bio)
>
>As Chicago's poorest face an increase to already-high public transit
>fees, the city is ignoring an offer of discounted diesel fuel to
>benefit low-income people.
>Chicago, Dec 28, 2005 - The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an
>opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in
>the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting
>deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum
>Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget
>shortfalls.
>
>In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit
>Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city
>officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost
>diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan
>President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings
>on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.
>
>But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the
>CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according
>to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation.
>
>According to Venezuela's consul general in Chicago, Martin Sanchez,
>the CTA has yet to inform his office of its decision to decline the
>discount offer.
>
>In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not
>want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be
>addressed by fare hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela
>offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month,
>and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for
>passengers paying cash.
>
>"This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me,"
>said Dorothy Chew, resident of Humboldt Park, where one-third of
>residents live below the federally recognized poverty level -
>currently just $16,000 for a family of three. Chew relies on the CTA
>to get to work and to Chicago Commons, where she attends classes
>daily in preparation for taking her GED. Since she rarely has money
>to invest in a fare card, she will be forced to pay for transfers the
>majority of the time.
>
>Chew's classmate, Linda Cox, works a minimum-wage job and has been a
>Public Aid recipient for 15 years. She also relies heavily on public
>transportation.
>
>"I only earn $560 a month and of that, over $200 a month goes to my
>bus fare," Cox told The NewStandard. "I have a 15-year-old and a
>17-year-old who also need to get to school. If they change the prices
>and take away transfers, there are going to be a lot of days missed.
>I already see no money at the end of the month."
>
>The offer of discount fuel is not just confined to Chicago. Over the
>Thanksgiving holiday, the first of Venezuela's "oil-for-the-poor"
>programs in the US was launched. Citgo struck a deal with three
>nonprofit organizations in the Bronx to deliver 5 million gallons of
>heating oil at 45 percent below the market price. The deal will
>amount to a savings of $4 million for the 8,000 low-income households
>slated to benefit from the plan.
>
>"This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me." --

Re: [Biofuel] was.. Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil

[Greg and April]

As I mentioned in a earlier post, if all of Chicago's busses were run /
controlled by a nonprofit organization and the oil went to the organization,
it would not involve a local government and then the use of discount oil
could not be considered a bribe.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "AEN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:26
Subject: [Biofuel] was.. Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil




Hello,
The agreements to supply discounted heating oil have been made through
citgo,
the legal U.S. subsiid.. with full business status in the U.S.   It is not a
situation
 of " making treaties with foreign nations",  so it should not be considered
as such
You don't see U.S. oil co's offering any relief what so ever on heating fuel
costs do you?.
 Even after the record profits that they have raked in
last year. The whole situation is purely political and if Canada or Britain
offered the same deal, it would
most probably be gratefully accepted. Is it ok to say "we are not going to
accept oil from an alleged
oppressive regime such as Chaves's" while bombing Bagdad? This is no defence
of Citgo but they
regularly offer discounted oil to poor people in several other countries as
well. Might be something
U.S. OIL could look at...don't hold your breath. Pure political BS.

OK, so Chicago authorities want to save face and not get involved for their
own reasons
mean while thousands of poor Americans can't afford to keep warm this winter
or obtain
discount transport.

regards
tallex



>  ---Original Message---
>  From: Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil




>  Sent: 05 Jan '06 15:17
>
>  IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities to make treaties
with
>  foreign nations, as such an agreement might be considered.
>
>
>  Greg H.
>
>


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>  - Original Message -
>  From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  To: 
>  Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 23:56
>  Subject: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>
>
>  http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2710
>
>  Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>
>  by Jessica Pupovac (bio)
>
>  As Chicago's poorest face an increase to already-high public transit
>  fees, the city is ignoring an offer of discounted diesel fuel to
>  benefit low-income people.
>  Chicago, Dec 28, 2005 - The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an
>  opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in
>  the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting
>  deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum
>  Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget
>  shortfalls.
>
>  In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit
>  Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city
>  officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost
>  diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan
>  President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings
>  on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.
>
>  But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the
>  CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according
>  to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation.
>
>  According to Venezuela's consul general in Chicago, Martin Sanchez,
>  the CTA has yet to inform his office of its decision to decline the
>  discount offer.
>
>  In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not
>  want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be
>  addressed by fare hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela
>  offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month,
>  and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for
>  passengers paying cash.
>
>  "This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me,"
>  said Dorothy Chew, resident of Humboldt Park, where one-third of
>  residents live below the federally recognized poverty level -
>  currently just $16,000 for a family of three. Chew relies on the CTA
>  to get to work and to Chicago Commons, where she a

Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil

[Greg and April]

Not really.

See a previous post with the subject - Venezuela Oil Fields Back in State
Control, from Keith Addison:

"In 2001, it passed a new law requiring oil production to be carried out by
companies majority-owned by the government."

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Marty Phee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 10:04
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil


Very true, but wouldn't they be signing a contract with Citgo and not
Venezuela.



Greg and April wrote:
> IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities to make treaties with
> foreign nations, as such an agreement might be considered.
>
>
> Greg H.
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 23:56
> Subject: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>
>
> http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2710
>
> Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil
>
> by Jessica Pupovac (bio)
>
> As Chicago's poorest face an increase to already-high public transit
> fees, the city is ignoring an offer of discounted diesel fuel to
> benefit low-income people.
> Chicago, Dec 28, 2005 - The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an
> opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in
> the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting
> deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum
> Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget
> shortfalls.
>
> In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit
> Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city
> officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost
> diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan
> President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings
> on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.
>
> But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the
> CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according
> to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation.
>
> According to Venezuela's consul general in Chicago, Martin Sanchez,
> the CTA has yet to inform his office of its decision to decline the
> discount offer.
>
> In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not
> want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be
> addressed by fare hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela
> offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month,
> and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for
> passengers paying cash.
>
> "This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me,"
> said Dorothy Chew, resident of Humboldt Park, where one-third of
> residents live below the federally recognized poverty level -
> currently just $16,000 for a family of three. Chew relies on the CTA
> to get to work and to Chicago Commons, where she attends classes
> daily in preparation for taking her GED. Since she rarely has money
> to invest in a fare card, she will be forced to pay for transfers the
> majority of the time.
>
> Chew's classmate, Linda Cox, works a minimum-wage job and has been a
> Public Aid recipient for 15 years. She also relies heavily on public
> transportation.
>
> "I only earn $560 a month and of that, over $200 a month goes to my
> bus fare," Cox told The NewStandard. "I have a 15-year-old and a
> 17-year-old who also need to get to school. If they change the prices
> and take away transfers, there are going to be a lot of days missed.
> I already see no money at the end of the month."
>
> The offer of discount fuel is not just confined to Chicago. Over the
> Thanksgiving holiday, the first of Venezuela's "oil-for-the-poor"
> programs in the US was launched. Citgo struck a deal with three
> nonprofit organizations in the Bronx to deliver 5 million gallons of
> heating oil at 45 percent below the market price. The deal will
> amount to a savings of $4 million for the 8,000 low-income households
> slated to benefit from the plan.
>
> "This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me." -- 
> Dorothy Chew Citgo has made a similar arrangement with Citizens
> Energy Corp. in Boston for the sale and distribution of 12 million
> gallons, saving low-income and elderly residents there a total of $10
> million. The company's website says that it expects to expand the
> program to other boroughs in New York City and that it is exploring
> the 

Re: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil

[Greg and April]

IIRC, it's not legal for individual states or cities to make treaties with
foreign nations, as such an agreement might be considered.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 23:56
Subject: [Biofuel] Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil


http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2710

Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil

by Jessica Pupovac (bio)

As Chicago's poorest face an increase to already-high public transit
fees, the city is ignoring an offer of discounted diesel fuel to
benefit low-income people.
Chicago, Dec 28, 2005 - The Chicago Transit Authority is refusing an
opportunity to alleviate commuting costs for hundreds of thousands in
the Windy City's low-income neighborhoods. Instead of accepting
deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned Citgo Petroleum
Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget
shortfalls.

In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit
Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city
officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost
diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan
President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings
on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.

But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the
CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according
to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation.

According to Venezuela's consul general in Chicago, Martin Sanchez,
the CTA has yet to inform his office of its decision to decline the
discount offer.

In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not
want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be
addressed by fare hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela
offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month,
and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for
passengers paying cash.

"This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me,"
said Dorothy Chew, resident of Humboldt Park, where one-third of
residents live below the federally recognized poverty level -
currently just $16,000 for a family of three. Chew relies on the CTA
to get to work and to Chicago Commons, where she attends classes
daily in preparation for taking her GED. Since she rarely has money
to invest in a fare card, she will be forced to pay for transfers the
majority of the time.

Chew's classmate, Linda Cox, works a minimum-wage job and has been a
Public Aid recipient for 15 years. She also relies heavily on public
transportation.

"I only earn $560 a month and of that, over $200 a month goes to my
bus fare," Cox told The NewStandard. "I have a 15-year-old and a
17-year-old who also need to get to school. If they change the prices
and take away transfers, there are going to be a lot of days missed.
I already see no money at the end of the month."

The offer of discount fuel is not just confined to Chicago. Over the
Thanksgiving holiday, the first of Venezuela's "oil-for-the-poor"
programs in the US was launched. Citgo struck a deal with three
nonprofit organizations in the Bronx to deliver 5 million gallons of
heating oil at 45 percent below the market price. The deal will
amount to a savings of $4 million for the 8,000 low-income households
slated to benefit from the plan.

"This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me." -- 
Dorothy Chew Citgo has made a similar arrangement with Citizens
Energy Corp. in Boston for the sale and distribution of 12 million
gallons, saving low-income and elderly residents there a total of $10
million. The company's website says that it expects to expand the
program to other boroughs in New York City and that it is exploring
the possibility of offering discounted fuel to residents in Maine,
Rhode Island, Connecticut and Pennsylvania.

However, in all of Illinois, only about 12,000 households use heating oil.

So instead of fuel for heat, Citgo representatives offered the CTA a
40-50 percent discount on diesel fuel for buses to benefit Chicagoans
most in need of relief from soaring oil and gas prices this winter.

"We didn't know how else to reach enough people," said Consul Sanchez.

Another difference between the Chicago offer and the programs enacted
in the Northeast is that Citgo proposed to work with a government
agency, rather than nonprofit organizations. The CTA relies on the US
federal government - which is in a constant war of words with
Venezuelan President Chavez - for much of its funding. In fact, just
weeks after Citgo made its offer to the CTA, Congress signed the
Federal Transportation Appropriations bill, allocating $89 million in
infrastructure project funds the CTA had been seeking for years.

Representatives from the US State Department and city officials,
including Aldermen involved in the negotia

Re: [Biofuel] free inline fuel heater?

[Greg and April]

Dipstick engine heaters, are not a good way of heating an engine in winter.

These heaters can cook ( overheat ) the oil right next to the heater, and
leave the rest of the oil cold, depending on the way the engine is made and
the fact that oil does not freely circulate as well as coolant does.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Teoman Naskali" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2005 15:33
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] free inline fuel heater?


> I just purchased some dipstick engine heaters. But I live in europe and
> they came from america, so they are 120V.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Motorbikes '16 times worse than cars for pollution'

[Greg and April]

I wonder if that is per gallon of fuel used or per mile driven.Depending
on which one it is, it can make a big difference.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2005 1:40
Subject: [Biofuel] Motorbikes '16 times worse than cars for pollution'


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1671722,00.html
> Guardian Unlimited | Special reports |
>
> Motorbikes '16 times worse than cars for pollution'
>
> Ian Sample, science correspondent
> Wednesday December 21, 2005
> The Guardian
>
> Motorbikes are churning out more pollution than cars, even though
> they make up only a small fraction of vehicles on the roads,
> according to a report.
>
> Tests on a selection of modern motorbikes and private cars revealed
> that rather than being more environmentally-friendly, motorbikes emit
> 16 times the amount of hydrocarbons, including greenhouse gases,
> three times the carbon monoxide and a "disproportionately high"
> amount of other pollutants, compared to cars. Ana-Marija Vasic at the
> Swiss Federal Laboratories for Materials Testing and Research, who
> led the research, said the need to legislate on emissions from
> motorbikes has been overlooked because there are so few on the roads.
> The oversight has lead to a paucity of research into ways of making
> their engines run more cleanly.
>
> In Britain, there are 1,060,000 motorbikes on the road but more than
> 25m private cars.
>
> Dr Vasic's tests showed that, especially in urban traffic, when
> motorcyclists frequently accelerated quickly, motorbike engines
> burned fuel inefficiently, giving a sharp peak in emissions. The
> yearly hydrocarbon emissions of the average two-wheeler in urban
> traffic measured up to 49 times higher than that of the average car,
> according to the study, due to be published in the journal
> Environmental Science and Technology.
>
> "The importance of [motorbike] emissions has been underestimated in
> legislation, giving manufacturers little motivation to improve
> aftertreatment systems," said Dr Vasic. The tests were carried out on
> a variety of Yamaha, Piaggio and Honda 50cc scooters and Suzuki,
> Honda and BMW motorbikes with engine sizes ranging from 800cc to
> 1150cc.
>
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Re: [Biofuel] BioButanol replaces gasoline

[Greg and April]

For use as solvent, I suspect it's going to 
have to be of higher purity, to avoid possible contamination - that will drive 
up the price right there.    If the plant works out, that will 
help bring the price down of even solvent grade.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Paul S 
  Cantrell 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 
  12:02
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BioButanol 
  replaces gasoline
  >From the first URL:"Butanol currently sells for about $3.70 per gallon in 
  bulk  (barge) and $6.80 in 55 gallon drums."and"Our preliminary 
  cost estimates suggest that we can produce butanol from corn for about $1.20 
  per gallon, not including a credit for the hydrogen produced. This compares 
  with ethanol production costs of about $1.28 per gallon. Taking into account 
  the higher Btu content of butanol, this translates to 105,000 Btu per dollar 
  for butanol and 84,000 Btu per dollar for ethanol with corn at $2.50 per 
  bushel. As a further point of reference, butanol produced from petroleum costs 
  about $1.35 per gallon to manufacture."With US wholesale 
  gasoline (ie barge) at ~$1.65 (Source: NYMEX for January delivery), $1.20 per 
  gallon production sounds great, especially against $1.35 per gallon from 
  petrochem.  But if the (bio)Butanol would be worth $3.70 as a solvent, 
  would the price as a fuel be low enough to replace gasoline?  I think 
  only if the supply outstripped demand to a large degree.  No rational 
  capitalist would sell a product worth $3.70 for $1.65.  Did I miss 
  something?
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Re: [Biofuel] BioButanol replaces gasoline

[Greg and April]

I have already sent an inquiry, regarding it use 
with BioDiesel, and will pass along any info they may send me.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Tom Irwin 

  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 
  12:16
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] BioButanol 
  replaces gasoline
  
  Hi Greg,
   
  I don't think you will see too much about butanol being used for 
  biodiesel. I could be wrong but I believe viscosity goes up rather 
  dramatically by increasing the number of carbons on the ester chain. A few 
  years back I tried to use propanol to make BioD and although there was some 
  separation, the top layer, (I dare not call it BioD) was like molasses in 
  consistency. I can only imagine what the addition of another carbon to the 
  alcohol would do.
   
  Tom Irwin
    
  

From: Greg and April 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 13:04:12 
-0300Subject: [Biofuel] BioButanol replaces gasoline
Ran across this on another list, and 
thought people here would interested it.
 
http://butanol.com/index.html
http://www.ilcorn.org/Corn_Products/Butanol/butanol.html
 
Be interesting to see the information 
about BioDiesel made with butanol.
 
Greg H.

  
   
   
  
  

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[Biofuel] BioButanol replaces gasoline

[Greg and April]

Ran across this on another list, and 
thought people here would interested it.
 
http://butanol.com/index.html
http://www.ilcorn.org/Corn_Products/Butanol/butanol.html
 
Be interesting to see the information about 
BioDiesel made with butanol.
 
Greg H.
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Re: [Biofuel] Alum as coagulant

[Greg and April]

There is quite likely Aluminum in Alum, depending on type.

Alum

Aluminum Sulfate Al2(SO4)

Note the AL2(SO4) in 3 of the 4 types of Alum below ( not a complete list ):


Potash alum, K2SO4·Al2(SO4)3·24H2O
Sodium alum, Na2SO4·Al2(SO4)3·24H2O
Chrome alum, K2SO4·Cr2(SO4)3·24H2O
Ammonia alum, NH4Al(SO4)2·12H2O

Alum, in chemistry, is a term given to the crystallized double sulfates of
the typical formula M+2SO4·M3+2(SO4)3·24H2O, where M+ is the sign of an
alkali metal (lithium, sodium, potassium, rubidium, or cesium), and M3+
denotes one of the trivalent metals (typically ALUMINIUM, chromium, or iron
(III)). The ammonium ion (NH4+) also occurs in the M+ position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alum


Like I said,

"IIRC, aluminum soaps will thicken fuels, and that was a early way to make
napalm.

I'm not saying that alum would do this, but, it should be something to keep
in mind, as, soap is a byproduct of biofuel production."

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "John Donahue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 21:11
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alum as coagulant


> Alum is not the same as aluminum
>
> John D.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] WVO candles

[Greg and April]

It isn't Stearin is it?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 7:21
Subject: [Biofuel] WVO candles


> 
> There's a product you can buy here in any supermarket, cheap, a white 
> powder claimed to be made from 100% castor oil. You're supposed to 
> add it to your used cooking oil when you're finished with it, while 
> it's still hot, stir it up and it sets into a solid gel which you can 
> add to the burnable garbage bin rather than throwing it down the 
> drain or the toilet. (People say they've never seen anyone buying any 
> of it though!)
> 

snip

> 
> Anyone have any idea what this castor oil stuff might be or how it 
> works? I've never heard of it before but for all I know it's common 
> everywhere.
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 18:56
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cat question was Re: Lay low in the high grass


> Marylynn Schmidt wrote:
>
>
> >
> > HOW MANY MACDONALDS HAMBURGERS HAS THE AVERAGE CHILD EATEN IN A WEEK ..
IN 2
> > WEEKS?
>
> I haven't had a McDonald's hamburger since I was about 7.  (That was
> a VERY long time ago!)  My children have NEVER eaten them.  I'm trying
> to understand your point, Mary Lynn.  English is not my first language
> and I might be a little bit dense, but I'm not following what
> McDonald's hamburgers have to do with commercial cat food.
>
>

That's ok, Robert, English ( well American English ) is my first language,
and I don't understand either.

Greg H.


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

It's one thing if it is a vehicle fuel tank, something else if it is not.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 22:02
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


> Hmmm.  Remind me never to come to your town, as my truck has an 18.5
> gallon fuel tank filled with biodiesel/diesel.  If I parked in your
> driveway, It'd be illegal.
>
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

Furnace is Natural Gas.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Kenji James Fuse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 23:43
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


> Hey Greg,
>
> Can't you put your biodiesel in a furnace tank and call it home heating
> oil? That should get around that arcane law.
>
> Too bad about your neighbour, tho'...
>
> Kenji Fuse
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood enoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

No.

Near as I can tell, everything is NG with some electric and a few solar.

Greg H

- Original Message - 
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 18:59
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene glovesgood
enoughprotection?


> Greg,
>
> Do people heat with fuel oil where you are?  If so, that's not Biodiesel
> being stored, it's fuel oil.  They have got to allow tanks of that.
> (Assuming people heat with oil where you are.)
>
> Chris K
> Cayce, SC
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves goodenoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

I'm a residence not a restraunt/business, so the exemtions for 'Other Oils'
don't apply.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 19:38
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves
goodenoughprotection?


> it's only biodiesel if you call it biodiesel. i would call it a
biodegradable degreaser, cooking oil,cleaning fluid ,or  yellow stuff.
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good enoughprotection?

[Greg and April]

In an obscure way, I am all ready there.

A neighbor up the street let me know about a month ago that if he ever
suspects that I am making BioDiesel, he will make sure that one way or
another will I end up in court ( legal or civil ).

I'm not totaly sure of what the issue is, but, near as I can tell, he is one
of those " No one should do it but the professionals " type of people, and
he works for the city utilities ( I have found that he is the one of the
people involved in buying the electricity for the city, so the fact that I
want to use the BioDiesel to generate my own electricity is probably some
concern to him ).

It appears that the city has an obscure law about how much fuel ( and by
what type) that can be stored on the premises of a residence, and only 5 gal
of diesel ( of any type ) may be on hand at any time ( although 30 gal of
kero may be stored ) in approved DOT above ground containers.To simplify
things for inspectors, anything not approved by the law, is illegal.

I'm still trying to figure out the ins and out's of this law, and so I'm
just taking my time.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 13:40
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol - was Re: neoprene gloves good
enoughprotection?


> Hi Keith,
>
> You're probably right.  I just have the fear that someone will
> kill/blind/maim themselves making BD and it'll
> be seized on by the forces of darkness.  If training were available, or
> we could setp an serious non-profit (that is NOT the National Biodiesel
> Board) and
> do training, like The Motorcycle Safety Institute does, it would be a
> real service.  I have toyed with the idea of a non-profit geared to and
> supported by the home-brew and smaller brew gang, to keep and an eye on
> legislation, provide the truth to the media and Congress and other
> Goverments, and to lobby to counter
> the anit-BD and biofuels people.  This group could also provide training
> courses and certify trainers.  Maybe to outreach to farmers and fleet
> drivers.  I don't get the feeling the NBB is our friend.
>
> In no way do I mean to challenge your knowledge and instincts; you have
> far more experience and standing than I do.  I guess I'm a Nervous
> Nellie sometimes.
> I am always careful to tell newbies coming by to learn what I do and
> why.  Then I make a small batch with SVO, so it works, then move on from
> there.
>
> As for my safety when brewing, I do what I'm comfortable with.  I spent
> years as a mechanic and have a bit of clue as to what to wear and when.
> That said, have I whipped up a small batch without gloves?  Yup.  I
> don't brew inside anymore, though.  I finally built a shed for that,
> with good ventilation.
>
> Your JTF pages are good.  I wouldn't add much.  I have a punch list I
> give to people but you pretty much cover everything.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Diesel pick-ups in Canada

[Greg and April]

At www.sor.com ( Specter Off Road ), you can find about any engine that went
into a Landcruiser, including diesels.   4,5, and 6 cyl diesel engines
http://www.sor.com/sor/cat035b.tam?xax=22710

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 16:46
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Diesel pick-ups in Canada


> You might have an easier time in Canada than here in the US, but here
> the little 4 cylinder diesel pickups are few and far between.  They're
> selling for upwards of $5,000 if in good shape with under 200,000km.
> I had to drive 1,200 miles to get mine, and then only because I had
> good connections.  Check Ebay, and be willing to take a road trip to
> get it.
>
> You  might see if you can import one from Japan, or get a diesel
> engine from japan to transplant into a North american market toyota.
> I know a few people who have done that.
>
> Zeke
>
> On 11/28/05, steve reimer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Any suggestions on where I can find a small to mid sized diesel pick-up
> > truck in Ontario, Canada?  In the truck trader, I only found 2 or 3
older
> > trucks with over 300 000km.
> > Steve Reimer
> >
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> >
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

Michael,

You seem the have the chemistry I lack, maybe you can tell me about how many
moles of H to a liter of glycerin C 3 H 5 (OH)3 ?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "michael skinner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 21:07
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power


> 1 liter of water = 1000g divide by molecular wt of water 18 gives 55.6
moles
> of water x 2 for 111 moles of H
>
> 1 liter of ethanol = 789.3 g divide by molecular wt of 46.07 = 17.1 mole
of
> ethanol x 6 for 103 moles of H per liter.  adding ethanol lowers # of H /
> liter.
>
> 1 liter of methanol = 791.4 g divide by molecular wt of 32.04 = 24.7 moles
> x4 for 98 moles of H
>
> so on a per volume basis you lower the H by adding alcohol.
>
> is you calculate the moles of H per gram is it 0.11/0.12/0.13 for
> water/methanol/ethanol respectively
>
> Original Message Follows
> From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:41:33 -0700
>
> The water may be more plentiful, but, it still takes up volume and mass.
>
> 1 gal of water weighs about 8.35 lbs. and takes up 231 cubic inches
>
> So 90 gal weighs over 750 lbs and takes up over 12 cubic ft.
>
> That's a lot, of extra weight and volume being taken up.
>
> I can't help but wonder if the water is being doped with alcohol - it
would
> increase the amount of H2 per unit of liquid, and IIRC, increases
> conductivity of the water, not to mention decreasing the temperature of
> freezing solid.
>
>
> Can anyone confirm the effects of electricity through alcohol?
>
> Greg H.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 16:31
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
>
>
>  > H.  Well, considering that they go through 100 gallons of diesel
>  > fuel in an 8 hour day, and water (even clean water) is way more
>  > plentiful than diesel), that actually doesn't seem that bad if it
>  > allows saving maybe 5% of the diesel fuel.
>  >
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

Robert,

Do you plan any experiments in the near future?

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 19:37
Subject:  hydrogen power


SNIP

> I have built several electrolyzers 

SNIP

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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

If they don't achieve the 50% increase, they are out only about $800, if
they do, the person, who had it installed is out about $2100.

Talk about a rip off in favor of the company.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Marty Phee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 7:54
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power


> "If after making the proper adjustments, we cannot achieve a 50%
> increase in mileage over the baseline mileage figures, *the
> Hydrogen-Boost system is yours free of charge*.  However if we achieve
> over 50% increase in mileage you agree to *pay double *the regular
prices."
>
> I'm guessing the person won't gamble $1500 (cost of the unit looks like
> $7500.
>
> Greg and April wrote:
> > And just how long do they have to make the adjustments?
> >
> > Greg H.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > *From:* john owens <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > <mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>
> > *Sent:* Monday, November 21, 2005 13:45
> > *Subject:* [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
> >
> >
> >
> > I dono if this is realy related to truckers using hydrogen but
> > this website http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/ claims to increase
> > milage on cars by 50% they will also instal units and if
> > "with the right adjusments" they cant give a 50% increase in
> > milage they will give you the unit free.
> >
> > John
> >
> > 
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

And just how long do they have to make 
the adjustments?
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  john owens 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 
  13:45
  Subject: [Biofuel] truckers choose 
  hydrogen power
  
   
   
  I dono if this is realy related to truckers using hydrogen but this 
  website http://www.hydrogen-boost.com/ claims 
  to increase milage on cars by 50% they will also instal units and if 
  "with the right adjusments" they cant give a 50% increase in milage 
  they will give you the unit free. 
   
  John
  
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Re: [Biofuel] Supplemental Hydrogen Injection for Class 8 Trucks

[Greg and April]

This makes allot more sense.

#1I suspect that the stainless steel cell may be one of the electrodes.

#5I wonder if it makes a difference if the 100 hours at 15 mph or at 75
mph?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 18:23
Subject: [Biofuel] Supplemental Hydrogen Injection for Class 8 Trucks


> Ok everyone, I went to Hodgson Heavy Duty this afternoon to inquire
> about the supplemental hydrogen injection unit.  Here are the
> pertinent facts:
>
> 1.  The unit consists of a single, enclosed cell made of stainless
> steel.  I don't know what they're using for electrode or separator
> material.
>
> 2.  Voltage from the truck's charging circuit is stepped down and
> amperage increased.  The actual unit runs about 2 volts, with current
> densities a little over 60 amps.
>
> 3.  The cell contains an electric heater at the bottom, which is
> activated by a sensor ONLY when the truck's engine is running.  The
> unit is designed for freezing weather and will heat up sufficiently
> for full function within two hours, if it's been frozen solid.  Most
> truckers leave their engines running in cold weather, however, so this
> apparently isn't much of a problem.
>
> 4.  H2 and O2 are injected together, at 60 psi on the pressure side of
> the intake, downstream from the turbo.  When the engine is shut off,
> all gases are purged from the system for safety.
>
> 5.  The water reservoir must be recharged at about 100 hours of
> service.  Electrolyte is never replenished.
>
> 6.  The unit is guaranteed to increase fuel economy by at least 10%.
> Larry Hodgson says that four of his regular customers have the
> supplemental hydrogen unit installed, and they report gains in power
> and fuel economy.  (He's installed many of these, but not all
> customers are REGULAR customers.)  When the unit has a problem, he
> says the drivers can tell right away that it isn't working because
> there's a notable loss of power.
>
> 7.  One customer, who hauls Super B train loads of wood chips to and
> from a mill over the Cascades, reports only a 2% fuel economy gain
> because of the topography of his run.  This trucker burns over $12 000
> in fuel every month, saving about $250.  At that rate of return, the
> unit will not pay for itself (it runs about $15 000 CDN) before the
> lease on the truck runs out.  Larry Hodgson reports that this guy
> remains happy with the electrolyzer, however, because the increased
> power helps him climb the nightmare grades between here and there.
>
> 8.  Larry Hodgson says the company is reputable and stands behind
> their product.
>
> Now, he's got a VERY busy shop.  The Lickman Road interchange, where
> his truck shop is located, is the third busiest commercial
> intersection in Canada.  There are trucks and trailers lined up to get
> into Hodgson Heavy Duty, and having worked in that industry myself, I
> don't think a repair shop owner would risk the reputation of his
> business on a product that didn't perform as advertised; I know the
> profit / loss margins are very narrow in the repair business.  He was
> very helpful and talked to me for over twenty minutes.
>
>
> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.newadventure.ca
>
> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

Ok, I was thinking that since alcohol had more H2 per molecule.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "michael skinner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 21:07
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power


> 1 liter of water = 1000g divide by molecular wt of water 18 gives 55.6
moles
> of water x 2 for 111 moles of H
>
> 1 liter of ethanol = 789.3 g divide by molecular wt of 46.07 = 17.1 mole
of
> ethanol x 6 for 103 moles of H per liter.  adding ethanol lowers # of H /
> liter.
>
> 1 liter of methanol = 791.4 g divide by molecular wt of 32.04 = 24.7 moles
> x4 for 98 moles of H
>
> so on a per volume basis you lower the H by adding alcohol.
>
> is you calculate the moles of H per gram is it 0.11/0.12/0.13 for
> water/methanol/ethanol respectively
>
> Original Message Follows
> From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> To: 
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 07:41:33 -0700
>
> The water may be more plentiful, but, it still takes up volume and mass.
>
> 1 gal of water weighs about 8.35 lbs. and takes up 231 cubic inches
>
> So 90 gal weighs over 750 lbs and takes up over 12 cubic ft.
>
> That's a lot, of extra weight and volume being taken up.
>
> I can't help but wonder if the water is being doped with alcohol - it
would
> increase the amount of H2 per unit of liquid, and IIRC, increases
> conductivity of the water, not to mention decreasing the temperature of
> freezing solid.
>
>
> Can anyone confirm the effects of electricity through alcohol?
>
> Greg H.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 16:31
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
>
>
>  > H.  Well, considering that they go through 100 gallons of diesel
>  > fuel in an 8 hour day, and water (even clean water) is way more
>  > plentiful than diesel), that actually doesn't seem that bad if it
>  > allows saving maybe 5% of the diesel fuel.
>  >
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

- Original Message - 
From: "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:12
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power




>
> The company says they have overcome the problem of the water freezing.
> No indication they have changed the properties of water to do so.
>

There is the posabilities that they are using exaust or coolent to keep the
water liquid, but, then I would expect that they would have issues in the
summer with faster evaporation of the water.

> > Distilled water is a poorer conductor than water with some types of
> > impurities in it.
>
> Yes, but the impurities will cause residues in the electrolysis unit, so
> best to avoid them.

Depends on the impurities and what they are using for electrodes.

Certian salts would do it, if they had non-reactive electrodes.

>
> > Someone is blowing smoke, but, I doubt it is the diesel trucks.
>
> I understand and support skepticism about the claims.  However, until we
> have evidence to counter the company's claims (and they have years of
> research and testing behind them, and testimonials from people at
> company names I recognize), I don't think we should label them as
> charlatans.  Do you have that evidence?
>

We have also seen claims and testimonials that acetone and various magnetic
devices will improve mileage as well.

OTOH, a thought occurred to me last night as I was getting into bed.

They are making a lot of loud noises about the H2 that they are getting from
the water, but, we have no idea what they are doing with the O2.What if
it is the increased amount of O2, that is partially ( if not mostly
responsible ) for the changes in the engine combustion?

Greg H.


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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

The water may be more plentiful, but, it still takes up volume and mass.

1 gal of water weighs about 8.35 lbs. and takes up 231 cubic inches

So 90 gal weighs over 750 lbs and takes up over 12 cubic ft.

That's a lot, of extra weight and volume being taken up.

I can't help but wonder if the water is being doped with alcohol - it would
increase the amount of H2 per unit of liquid, and IIRC, increases
conductivity of the water, not to mention decreasing the temperature of
freezing solid.


Can anyone confirm the effects of electricity through alcohol?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 16:31
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power


> H.  Well, considering that they go through 100 gallons of diesel
> fuel in an 8 hour day, and water (even clean water) is way more
> plentiful than diesel), that actually doesn't seem that bad if it
> allows saving maybe 5% of the diesel fuel.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

Thanks.

Over 90 gal of water in a 8 hr day.

The water has to be pure or deposits will form.

The waste of purifying water takes at least two forms, waste water full of
salts and/or heat.

Again, H2 sounds nice, but, proves to be fake.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "William Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 23:50
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power


> Hi Greg,
>
> On water consumption, some order of magnitude, back of an envelope,
> calculations can be done (don't look for precision, I'm making several
> assumptions).  A 10 liter diesel engine at 1800 rpm will consume (no
turbo)
> 300 liters of air per second. If significant enhancement of performance
> requires 5% H2 in the intake airstream, the H2 production rate must be 15
> liters/second (.05 x 300 liters). This represents 0.67 moles H2, (one mole
> H2 is 22.4 liters). Electrolylsis of one mole of H2O (18 ml) yields one
mole
> of H2. In one hour of operation at 1800 rpm the engine will consume 2,412
> moles of H2 (54,029 liters of H2 gas). To produce this volume of H2 gas
will
> require electrolysis of 43.4  liters of water (about 11.5 gallons) per
hour,
> or about 260 liters on a typical 6 hour run.
>
> Another aspect has to do with the amount of electrical energy needed to
> transform, per second, 12 cc of liquid water to 15 liters of H2 gas. I
leave
> that, and the associated efficiency losses to others.
>
> I make no judgment about the overall efficiency,  efficacy or worthiness
of
> this technique.  As to whether it works or not, as Hakan might say,  puede
> que si, o puede que no.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bob, West Linn, OR
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 9:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
>
>
> >I have been wondering what the rate of water usage is.
> >
> > Greg H.
> >
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 19:37
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power
> >
> >
> >>
> >> This process does not violate thermodynamics, and may POSSIBLY result
> >> in a small improvement in overall efficiency.  A minor improvement in
> >> thermal efficiency using a 5% hydrogen supplement has been documented
> >> by scientists as renown as Sir Harry Ricardo.  This is because
> >> hydrogen acts to speed up combustion, and gases that would otherwise
> >> continue to expand through the engine's exhaust port and manifold are
> >> "hurried" into producing work while still in the chamber.
> >>
> >> Now, whether or not this results in a net efficiency gain depends on
> >> how efficient the onboard electrolytic device happens to be.  I have
> >> built several electrolyzers and I'm skeptical, particularly when I
> >> read the hype written into this article.  A ten liter truck engine
> >> inhales an AWFUL lot of air, particularly under boost, so that
> >> electrolyzer would have to put out a fairly significant volume of
> >> hydrogen to make a difference.
> >>
> >>
> >> robert luis rabello
> >> "The Edge of Justice"
> >> Adventure for Your Mind
> >> http://www.newadventure.ca
> >>
> >> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> >> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
> >>
> >>
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> > messages):
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power

[Greg and April]

I have been wondering what the rate of water usage is.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "robert luis rabello" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 19:37
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] truckers choose hydrogen power


>
> This process does not violate thermodynamics, and may POSSIBLY result
> in a small improvement in overall efficiency.  A minor improvement in
> thermal efficiency using a 5% hydrogen supplement has been documented
> by scientists as renown as Sir Harry Ricardo.  This is because
> hydrogen acts to speed up combustion, and gases that would otherwise
> continue to expand through the engine's exhaust port and manifold are
> "hurried" into producing work while still in the chamber.
>
> Now, whether or not this results in a net efficiency gain depends on
> how efficient the onboard electrolytic device happens to be.  I have
> built several electrolyzers and I'm skeptical, particularly when I
> read the hype written into this article.  A ten liter truck engine
> inhales an AWFUL lot of air, particularly under boost, so that
> electrolyzer would have to put out a fairly significant volume of
> hydrogen to make a difference.
>
>
> robert luis rabello
> "The Edge of Justice"
> Adventure for Your Mind
> http://www.newadventure.ca
>
> Ranger Supercharger Project Page
> http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Alum as coagulant

[Greg and April]

IIRC, aluminum soaps will thicken fuels, and that was a early way to make
napalm.

I'm not saying that alum would do this, but, it should be something to keep
in mind, as, soap is a byproduct of biofuel production.

You would not want a tank full of a flammable sticky gel that does not flow.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Doug Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 8:06
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alum as coagulant


> Hi Wes:
>
> Thanks for the information.  I was wondering if you have determined if
> adding alum has any impact on processing the WVO into BD.  My weak, old,
and
> somewhat suspect knowledge of chemistry tells me that alum will
dramatically
> alter the pH of unbuffered solutions and that some metals (not sure about
> aluminium) will hasten oxidization rates in vegetable oils, shortening
their
> shelf-life.  I don't know enough to figure out for myself if there would
be
> an impact on processing.  Any ideas?
>
> TIA
>
> Doug Turner
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Wes Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 7:38 AM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Alum as coagulant
>
>
> >
> >
> > After a few months of experimenting with Alum  (1 liter test batches) I
> have
> > concluded that Alum is effective to congeal water and most of the black
> > sludge in used cooking oil.
> > By adding about 1 teaspoon of alum to a liter of dirty oil, stirring and
> > leaving to settle for a day or two, there is an obvious clarity to the
oil
> > and a layer of sediment at the bottom of the container.
> > To make this process even more attractive, by adding more oil after
> pouring
> > the clarified oil off the top, the alum seems to be able to clarify the
> next
> > couple of batches without adding more alum.
> > Adding powdered bentonite seems to help, although I have not tried to
> > separate the effects of each.  I would be interested to hear the
> experiences
> > of others.
> > Wes
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] diesel vs. gasoline fuels & bike commuting

[Greg and April]

Please keep in mind, that American refineries are optimized to produce as
much gasoline as possible, at the expense of other products, from a single
gallon of oil.

In part, this is why they, tries to buy as much 'light sweet crude' as
possible.

Other types of crude oil don't give as much gasoline.

European refineries are optimized for other types of crude.

Jet fuel ( is generally a kerosene base ) and closely related to fuel oil,
the basic difference is the amount of allowable sulfur and waxes.In
theory jet fuel could be used in diesel engines with the addition of a
lubricant.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "logan vilas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 17:47
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] diesel vs. gasoline fuels & bike commuting


> http://science.howstuffworks.com/oil-refining.htm
>
> http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/whats_in_barrel_oil.html
> This explains the amount of fuel you get from a gallon of oil.
>
> To answer your question Crude Oil is a mixture of many different
hydrocarbon
> structures. Diesel is made up of 16 hydocarbons(Giving it a cetane
number).
> Gasoline is made up of 8 hydrocarbons(Octane number). It's just that over
> time the right catalysts or pressure or heat was not there to form more
and
> longer chains of hydrocarbons. Like a batch of Bio-Diesel if you only put
in
> half the lye then your reaction won't complete transesterifacation and
> you'll have triglycerides, diglycerides, monoglycerides, methanol,
> (possiable some soap), and glycerine. Well only part of the requirements
> were there. If they were all there you would end up with pure coke, or
coal.
>
>  It takes lass energy to produce gasoline because it boils between
> 104F-401F. Diesel Boils between 482F-662F
>
> The reason diesel was cheaper then gas for such a long time is that Diesel
> was only used in industrial applications for many years. Yeah I know that
> wasen't not the only use, but primary. Very recently people (Especially us
> Americans) have been switching to diesel for better fuel milage and just
to
> move our huge suv's. And there's still a reasonable amount of people who
> want to drive across montana in a pickup(no offense ment). With the ways
of
> this world, we have been useing more and more diesel. Recently demand
> finally went to a point where diesel is selling as fast or faster then
> gasoline. When that medium was hit diesel price broke that of gasoline
then
> it went above premium gas. Two weeks ago Disesl was 3.29 per gallon and
> premium gas was 2.89 per gallon in morgan city, Louisiana.
>
> Logan Vilas
> Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc.
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 12:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] diesel vs. gasoline fuels & bike commuting
>
>
> >I have one question that comes from a long time understanding (or perhaps
> > misconception) concerning diesel v. gasoline...
> >
> > 1)  Diesel has a higher energy content per gallon than gasoline
> > (confirmed
> > in email below)
> > 2)  Diesel is not as highly refined as gasoline  (confirmed in email
> > below)
> > 3)  You get *MORE* diesel per gallon of crude oil than gasoline since
> > gasoline is more highly refined, thus removing more actual content from
> > the
> > crude oil.  (seems to be the logical conclusion of #1 and #2)
> > 4)  Wasn't it 2000 or 2001 that VW had the lowest pollution (non-hybird,
> > non-electric) vehicle being sold in the USA ... the Golf Diesel?  And
> > despite being the lowest polluting, California banned its sale because
it
> > was a diesel!!
> >
> > If #3 is not true, then can you explain how it actually takes more crude
> > oil
> > per gallon of refined fuel to produce diesel than gasoline?
> >
> > Also, what is the energy input per gallon of gasoline for the additives
> > that
> > are used (detergents, anti-knock formulations, ethanol, etc) compared to
> > those added to diesel?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Randall
> > Charlotte, NC
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] new source of cheap near-limitless power

[Greg and April]

Actualy there is some truth to it, as this 
was the basis for early lasers, but, the electron has to be at a higher state to 
begin with, and that usually takes allot of energy to accomplish.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kirk 
  McLoren 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 
  8:15
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] new source of 
  cheap near-limitless power
  
  They say the energy is obtained by making the electron fall to a lower 
  energy state. Seems odd they didn't fall in the billions of years since matter 
  was formed.
   
  Kirk[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  Anyone 
know about this? Sounds too good to be true. http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1627424,00.htmlFuel's 
paradise? Power source that turns physics on its head á Scientist 
says device disproves quantum theory á Opponents claim idea is result of 
wrong maths Alok Jha, science correspondentFriday November 4, 
2005The Guardian It seems too good to be true: a new source of 
near-limitless power that costs virtually nothing, uses tiny amounts of 
water as its fuel and produces next to no waste. If that does not sound 
radical enough, how about this: the principle behind the source 
turns modern physics on its head.Randell Mills, a Harvard 
University medic who also studied electrical engineering at 
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, claims to have built a prototype 
power source that generates up to 1,000 times more heat than 
conventional fuel. Independent scientists claim to have verified the 
experiments and Dr Mills says that his company, Blacklight Power, has 
tens of millions of dollars in investment lined up to bring the idea to 
market. And he claims to be just months away from unveiling his 
creation.The problem is that according to the rules of quantum 
mechanics, the physics that governs the behaviour of atoms, the idea 
is theoretically impossible. "Physicists are quite conservative. It's 
not easy to convince them to change a theory that is accepted for 50 to 
60 years. I don't think [Mills's] theory should be supported," said Jan 
Naudts, a theoretical physicist at the University of 
Antwerp.What has much of the physics world up in arms is Dr Mills's 
claim that he has produced a new form of hydrogen, the simplest of 
all the atoms, with just a single proton circled by one electron. In his 
"hydrino", the electron sits a little closer to the proton than normal, 
and the formation of the new atoms from traditional hydrogen releases 
huge amounts of energy.This is scientific heresy. According to 
quantum mechanics, electrons can only exist in an atom in strictly 
defined orbits, and the shortest distance allowed between the proton and 
electron in hydrogen is fixed. The two particles are simply not allowed 
to get any closer.According to Dr Mills, there can be only one 
explanation: quantum mechanics must be wrong. "We've done a lot of 
testing. We've got 50 independent validation reports, we've got 65 
peer-reviewed journal articles," he said. "We ran into this 
theoretical resistance and there are some vested interests here. 
People are very strong and fervent protectors of this [quantum] 
theory that they use."Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of 
North Carolina at Asheville (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy 
sources, was allowed unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this 
year. "We went in with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it 
would certainly be nice if this were true, in my position as head of 
a research institution, I really wouldn't want to make a mistake. 
The last thing I want is to be remembered as the person who derailed 
a lot of sustainable energy investment into something that wasn't 
real."But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no 
doubt about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum 
physicists are looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very 
compelling," said Prof Maas. "Dr Booker and I have both put our 
professional reputations on the line as far as that goes."Dr 
Mills's idea goes against almost a century of thinking. When scientists 
developed the theory of quantum mechanics they described a world where 
measuring the exact position or energy of a particle was impossible and 
where the laws of classical physics had no effect. The theory has been 
hailed as one of the 20th century's greatest achievements.But it 
is an achievement Dr Mills thinks is flawed. He turned back to earlier 
classical physics to develop a theory which, unlike quantum mechanics, 
allows an electron to move much closer to the proton at the heart of a 
hydrogen atom and, in doing so, release the substantial amounts of 
energy he seeks to exploit. Dr Mills's theory, 

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution

[Greg and April]

Then how is NitoMethane made?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 10:35
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol substitution


> Howdy Teoman,
>
> bubbling thru the solution is all that it would do. It doesn't react under
these conditions.
>


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[Biofuel] Accidental Invention Points to End of Light Bulbs

[Greg and April]

Very interesting article.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20051021/sc_space/accidentalinventionpointstoendoflightbulbs;_ylt=AqgImjW.2mWPUaNCSyb.Awis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ
OR
http://tinyurl.com/cb6x4 


The main light source of the future will 
almost surely not be a bulb. It might be a table, a wall, or even a 
fork.
Greg 
H.

 
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Re: [Biofuel] methoxide solution - missing scale

[Greg and April]

And unions haven't caused problems?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Kenji James Fuse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 22:39
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methoxide solution - missing scale


> Please don't shop at WarMart!
> Despite the problems with the labour movement, i think all of us
> progressives on this list would agree the hostility shown by WarMart
> against organized labour is downright unacceptable. At least up here in
> kanada
>
> ie, a Quebec WarMart store's employees voted this past summer to unionize,
> so the store simply closed down
>
> KF
>


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Re: [Biofuel] methoxide solution - missing scale

[Greg and April]

HEET for diesels is almost pure ( 98% or so ) Isopropanol from what I
understand.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:12
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methoxide solution - missing scale


> > I stopped by one of the small town hardware stores on my way to work
> > this morning. I was hunting for the 99% Isopropyl alcohol I had bought
> > there years ago. No luck they don't carry it any longer. They did have
> > other alcohols which I am unfamiliar with. methyl ester ketone? (sp)
> > I have no idea what that is for. It was in the paint thinner section.
> > As was methyl ethyl  solvent.
>
> Methyl Ethyl Ketone is used as the hardening agent in fiberglass work.
>  NASTY stuff.  Ketones aren't technically alcohols anyway, if I
> remember my organic chemistry right.
>
> Unfortunately the ingredients said
> > contains less than 4% methanol, so again I have no idea if that would
> > be worth anything. I was after Isopropyl and they didn't have any,
> > bummer.
>
> Try looking for rubbing alcohol in a pharmacy.  I believe this is
> isopropyl alcohol.
>
> >I looked at their good collection of fiberglass reinforced PVC
> > tubing. My mind went on a quickie scavenger hunt of uses. Then I was
> > off to see if they had any Phenolphthalein. Nada nothing zilch.
>
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[Biofuel] Multi Fuel Engines

[Greg and April]

Prototype 42 hp Engine 


  6 inches dia. 
  6 inches long 
  42 hp at 7000 rpm 
  40lbs. 
  Tested at NAVAIR PSEF Oct. 2003 
http://www.regtech.com/18.html
 
Greg H.
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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi

[Greg and April]

Todd,

I don't think we are thinking about the same type of efficiency here.

I'm was thinking more in terms of production efficiency rather than the
energy efficiency you appear to be talking about.

Looking back at the original, it looks like I missed parts of it.My bad.

When Efficient and Factories are put together, I think in terms of labor,
and production.I don't know why, I just do.To me, efficient
factories conjures images of fewer people and more machines or higher
quotas.Perhaps it was because I used to work in a small manufacturing
facility, as a sheet metal grind tech, and our performance was based on
quantity and not quality.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 17:40
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi


> Greg,
>
> Nothing personal here. But this is precisely the type of knee jerk,
> superficial thought that every special interest preys upon to put more
> sentiment and votes in their camp.
>
> For instance: 2.1 jobs created in the energy efficiency/conservation
> business in comparison to one new job for an equivalent amount of BTUs
> in new energy production. (Energy Unbound, Amory Lovins, circa "eons
ago.")
>
> A job lost could mean 2.1 jobs gained. And we're not speaking of
> mindless assembly work in a compact fluorescent bulb facility, or at
> least not necessarily or entirely. There are millions of jobs that would
> be available if the nation made the radical switch to an energy
> responsible economy. In any event, it's probably a fairly safe bet that
> a large percentage of the unemployed population would be elated to have
> a job that could be considered skilled labor, not "burger flipper."
>
> The solutions aren't excessively simple. Nor are they excessively
> complex. All that is required is cohesive effort, cradle to grave,
> hectare to digester to wind tower to cogen to Detroit to
> Schwartzenhogger to Shrub.
>
> And if they can't get a grip on the wagon to climb on board or at least
> lend a shoulder to push?
>
> Well..., you know the answer to that one. Just so long as it's their
> legs that are wet and not mine or yours.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>
> > Unions.
> >
> > More efficient factories, mean fewer workers.Someone is going to
> > lose their job.
> >
> > Greg H.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > *From:* Gustl Steiner-Zehender 
> > *To:* Biofuel 
> > *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:38
> > *Subject:* [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
> >
> > Hallo All,
> >
> > I  received this exchange which has been taking place among some of
my
> > friends.   Any comments?  They will be forwarded by me to these
folks.
> >
> > Happy Happy,
> >
> > Gustl
> >
> > SNIP
> >
> > Item 2.  More efficient factories:  There isn't a manufacturer
> > anywhere that wouldn't do that.  Exactly why aren't they?
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi

[Greg and April]

Unions.
 
More efficient factories, mean fewer 
workers.    Someone is going to lose their job.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Gustl 
  Steiner-Zehender 
  To: Biofuel 
  Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 
  11:38
  Subject: [Biofuel] Fwd: Re: fyi
  
  Hallo All,I  received this exchange which has been taking 
  place among some of myfriends.   Any comments?  They will 
  be forwarded by me to these folks.Happy 
  Happy,GustlSNIP
   Item 2.  More efficient factories:  There isn't a 
  manufactureranywhere that wouldn't do that.  Exactly why aren't 
  they? 
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Re: [Biofuel] SUV Drivers in Paris Get Wind Knocked Out of Them

[Greg and April]

Is it me, or is the civilian Hummer, really bigger and annoying when
compared to the military Humvee?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rodgers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:36
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] SUV Drivers in Paris Get Wind Knocked Out of Them


> I too dislike the Hummer
> I am satisfied with bad vibing them and amusing myself and friends of
> the absurdity of the daddy's war wagon mentality.
> truly,
> Brian Rodgers
>
> On 10/11/05, Burak_l <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Good for you!
> > I do not own an SUV.  BUT, I don't think anybody has the right to take
away
> > somebody elses mobility.
> > The person may need to get to hospital or to his business urgently.
Think
> > about the situation he is in.
> >
> > I agree that SUVs are using more fuel and Hummer is a nuissance in the
city.
> > But we can ot attack somebody elses vehicle simply because we decide we
can
> > do so..
> >
> > Mey peace be with you
> >
> > Burak.
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Joe Street
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 4:45 PM
> > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] SUV Drivers in Paris Get Wind Knocked Out of Them
> >
> >
> > ROFLMFAO!  I considered, more than once doing the same thing every time
> > I see a humvee parked somewhere.  Trouble is I believe these things can
> > inflate thier own tires!  The vehicles are disgusting though.  Another
> > idea I thought of would be to find some kind of paint pen which could be
> > used to write a message on the glass windows such as "oil is finite"  or
> > "Global warming"  or just "peak oil"  something which could be written
> > quickly of course because I hate getting beat up!  Also the writing
> > could be scraped off with a razor leaving no harm done but the message
> > would have been recieved and probable seen by a few others before the
> > owner figures out how to remove the message.  In the winter when SUV's
> > are covered in salt and road grime or when i see a dusty one I always
> > stop to write these messages with my finger in the dirt.
> >
> > Vive la resistance!
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > Frantz DESPREZ wrote:
> >
> > >SUV Drivers in Paris Get Wind Knocked Out of Them
> > >  A clandestine group lets air out of tires as a form of protest. The
> > >  vehicles' owners are not amused.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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Re: [Biofuel] Steel drums, Where to get them?

[Greg and April]

I in Colo Spngs, and don't know of any organic soap making places near by.
Do you know of any?

Greg H

- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 13:49
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Steel drums, Where to get them?


> Around here (colorado, USA), the organic soap making place has lots of
> em. All their chemicals and oils get delivered in big barrels, either
> steel or poly, and they just have to dispose of them afterwards.
>
> Zeke
>


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Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming

[Greg and April]

what viedo format is that in?

It will not open for me,

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 13:48
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] New question on oil seed crops and ley farming


> 
> It's hard to find a dumb animal, IMO, unless it's someone's pet. Look 
> at this crow in this BBC video clip:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/38185000/rm/_38185047_crow_08aug_vi.ram
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] the power of spin - harnessing artificial tornadoes as anenergy source

[Greg and April]

If man could harness some of the energy of storms, the storms probably would
not be as bad.


Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Alt.EnergyNetwork" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 15:05
Subject: [Biofuel] the power of spin - harnessing artificial tornadoes as
anenergy source




Hi all,
This is an interesting idea,
regards
tallex

The power of spin

Sep 29th 2005
>From The Economist print edition

< http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4455446 >

Harnessing artificial tornadoes as an energy source

WEATHER systems, as the world has recently been reminded,
have awesome power. The energy released by a large
hurricane can exceed the energy consumption of the
human race for a whole year, and even an average
tornado has a power similar to that of a large power
station. If only mankind could harness that energy,
rather than being at its mercy. Louis Michaud, a
Canadian engineer who works at a large oil company,
believes he has devised a way to do just that, by
generating artificial whirlwinds that can be controlled
and harnessed. He calls his invention the
"atmospheric vortex engine".

His idea works on a similar principle to a solar chimney,
which consists of a tall, hollow cylinder surrounded by
a large greenhouse. The sun heats the air in the
greenhouse, and the hot air rises. But its only escape
route is via the chimney. A turbine at the base of
the chimney generates electricity as the air rushes
by. A small solar chimney was operated successfully
in Spain in the 1980s, and EnviroMission, an Australian
firm, is planning to build a 1,000-metre-high example
in New South Wales. But the efficiency of such a system
is proportional to the height of the chimney, notes
Mr Michaud, which is limited by practical considerations.
His scheme replaces the chimney with a tornado-like
vortex of spinning air, which could extend several
kilometres into the atmosphere.


This vortex would be produced inside a large cylindrical
wall, 200 metres in diameter and 100 metres tall. Warm
air at ground level enters via tangential inlets around
the base of the wall. Steam is also injected to get the
vortex started. Once established, the heat content of
the air at ground level is enough to keep the vortex
going. As the air rises, it expands and cools, and
water vapour condenses, releasing even more heat. This
is, in fact, what powers a hurricane, which can be
thought of as a heat engine that takes in warm, humid
air at its base, releases cold, watery air at the top
of the troposphere, about 12 kilometres up, and liberates
a vast amount of energy in the process. (Just as water
requires heat to make it boil, it releases heat as it
condenses back into a liquid.)

Mr Michaud's vortex would reach a similar height to that of a
hurricane, but its base would remain stationary. The intensity
of the vortex would be controlled by closing the inlets around
the base, or by opening another set of inlets to inject air in
the opposite direction and so slow the vortex's rotation. And,
of course, there would be a set of turbines at the base of
the vortex that would allow its energy to be harnessed as air
rushed through the inlets. Mr Michaud estimates that an atmospheric
vortex engine with a diameter of 200 metres would produce around
200 megawatts of power.

Yes, but would it actually work? And if it did, could the resulting
vortex really be controlled? Mr Michaud admits that the word "tornado"
tends to worry people. This summer, 30 years after he had the original
idea, and having failed to convince his employer or any other energy
firm to take it on, he began tests at a site in Utah, with a cylindrical
wall 10 metres in diameter. His initial aim is to demonstrate that
artificial vortices can indeed be created and controlled. The next
phase, he says, would be to modify a cooling tower at an existing
power station so that it uses a spinning vortex rather than the
usual large fans to generate the necessary airflow within. The
final step would be to add turbines to extract energy from the
vortex.

Besides the engineering challenges involved, Mr Michaud must navigate
the cultural divide between atmospheric scientists and the
weather-modification
community. The scientists regard the weather-modification crowd as cranks.
They, in turn, cannot understand why the scientists are not taking a more
hands-on, experimental approach to understanding the weather, rather than
simply observing and modelling it. Mr Michaud has published nine papers
in atmospheric-science and meteorology journals, and says his invention
relies on principles that are consistent with scientists' current
understanding of how natural weather systems work. So much for the theory.
Now he must demonstrate that it works in practice.


next_generation_grid
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid

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tomorrow-energy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy



Alternative Energy Politics
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Re: [Biofuel] Running Toyota Landcruiser (HDJ80) on WVO?

[Greg and April]

Did you have to change the gaskets and fuel line?The reason I ask, it
that I have a '85 BJ60.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Scott Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 10:34
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Running Toyota Landcruiser (HDJ80) on WVO?


> Julian
>
> I have been running B100 in my 1986 BJ74 Land Cruiser ( four cylinder
turbo
> diesel ) for two years now and
> have noticed only positive differences ( less noise, smooth idle, etc ).
It
> actually seems to have more power.
> I have been buying commercially made biodiesel so the quality is
> consistently high.
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Julian Voelcker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:00 AM
> Subject: [Biofuel] Running Toyota Landcruiser (HDJ80) on WVO?
>
>
> > An enterprising local farmer has started making and selling 100%
> > Biodiesel from WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) and is selling it for 85pence
> > per litre (about 10-15% less than we normally pay for diesel here in
> > the UK).
> >
> > Has anyone here experimented with running their HDJ80 on WVO?
> >
> > Initial research indicates that it should run fine, but I would
> > appreciate some feedback from anyone actually running the stuff in
> > their 80.
> > --
> > Regards,
> >
> > Julian Voelcker
> > Mobile: 07971 540362
> > Cirencester, United Kingdom
> > 1994 HDJ80, 2.5" OME Lift
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> >
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> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> > messages):
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> >
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Steam catapult assisted take off

[Greg and April]

I know a little bit about the catapults on aircraft carriers.

When the front wheel of an aircraft is hooked into the catapult, it acts as
a large break keeping the aircraft from going anywhere, as the aircrafts
engines are brought up to max take off power.

When the catapult is released, it slings the aircraft forward over coming
the rolling resistance and bringing it up to take-off speed in 30-50 ft,
instead of a several hundred feet.

From:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/cv-design.htm

" A steam-powered catapult accelerates an aircraft under full throttle, from
0 to 165 mph in 2 seconds during take-off to help it reach take-off speed. "

There are several drawing of various aircraft carrier systems at that web
site.


Greg H.

DIPLOMACY IS
TO DO AND SAY
THE NASTIEST THINGS
IN THE NICEST WAY


- Original Message - 
From: "Jason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 17:03
Subject: [Biofuel] Steam catapult assisted take off


> Hi guys,
>
> Interesting thread on the jetliner fuel consumption comparisons. For the
> record, I don't have a car, I walk everywhere but if I'm in a hurry I take
> the bus or train, in Switzerland the buses and trains are mainly electric
> and nearly all electricity is hydro here :) And I'm not particularly fond
of
> flying :-p
>
> Now something a little different.
> 1. Does anyone know how the steam catapults on an aircraft carrier used to
> shoot the planes off works?
> 2. What speeds to they get the planes up to?
> 3. What are its limits? ie max speed attainable or efficient distance of
> operation.
>
> If anyone knows about this stuff any info is appreciated. 'nother idea ;)
>
> Thanks
>
> Jay


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Re: [Biofuel] Morality test for you all

[Greg and April]

I find it funny that the first time I saw it, it was about Bill Clinton,
then the second time it was about Hillary Clinton.

What is not funny is that my answer remains the same."Neither, I would
try and save them."

Now granted, after I saved them, I might punch them in the nose for things
they have done, but, I would try and save them.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "malcolm maclure" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 13:06
Subject: [Biofuel] Morality test for you all


>
>This is a tough one Check this - Morality Test:
>
>
>
>This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. By
>giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand morally. The
>test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you
>will have to make a decision.
>
>
>
>Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.
>
>
>
>Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line.
>
>
>
>You are in Florida, Miamito to be specific. There is chaos all around
you
>
>caused by a hurricane with severe flooding. This is a flood of
>biblical proportions. You are a photojournalist working for a major
>newspaper, and you're caught in the middle of this epic disaster.
>
>
>
>The situation is nearly hopeless. You're trying to shoot career-making
>photos. There are houses and people swirling around you, some
>disappearing under the water. Nature is unleashing all of its
>destructive fury.
>
>
>
> Suddenly you see a man floundering in the water. He is fighting for
his
>life, trying not to be taken down with the debris. You move closer...
>somehow the man looks familiar. You suddenly realize who it is. It's
>George W. Bush! At the same time you notice that the raging waters are
>about to take him under ... forever. You have two options--you can save
>the life of G.W. Bush or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize
>winning photo, documenting the death of one of the world's most
>powerful men.
>
>
>
>So here's the question, and please give an honest answer:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Would you select high contrast colour film, or would you go with the
>classic simplicity of black and white?
>
>
>
>
> Regards to all
>
> Malcolm :-)
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

Ok, first of all, my LandCruiser, is a little unusual, in the fact that it
is a Canadian Model.

One of the things that makes it unusual, is the fact that Toyota imported
diesels LandCruisers into Canada and not into the US.My LandCruiser is
one of the Canadian diesels.

IIRC, the 3B engine is a 2.4 (?) liter with a normal rating of 95 Hp.
Unfortunately it starts having breathing problems over 3000ft, and due to
altitude I only have about 85HpI could put a turbo on it, witch would
give me around 125 Hp, but, the turbo kit would be $3,500.The 6 cyl 4.1
liter 1HZ engine, has about 155 Hp, and would cost ~$5,000.The cost of
the 1HZ engine would be around the same as the cost of another diesel
vehicle ( older none American diesels are scarce around here, and the rest
are beat up for the price they are being asked ).

Having talked to a local LandCruiser parts dealer, I could get $2,000 to
$3,000 for my old engine, due to the demand of the classic 3B diesel engine,
if I don't turn it into a stationary power generation system fueled by WVO.



- Original Message - 
From: "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 18:28
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


> Hi Greg,
> now we're getting to something specific enough to work with.
>
> > Just to start debate on something I think about everyday, when I get
into my
> > LandCruiser.
> >
> > I wonder how much extra fuel is being used, because of the small engine
> > size, climbing all the hills around here.
> >
> > Still, I'm not knocking the 20 mpg I'm getting now, I just keep thinking
it
> > could get better with a bigger / more powerful engine.
>
> You also posted:
>
> > I'm talking about a '85 Toyota LandCruiser BJ60 with a 3B engine.
> >
> > IIRC, the engine is runs around 2700-2800 rpm at 75 mph.
> >
> > At sea level the 3B is about 95 Hp, but, starts to have breathing
> > problems at 3,000 ft, and I'm at 5500 ft and make trips to 10,000 -
> > 12,000 ft. once a month or so.
>
> U.S. government figures (EPA at
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm)
> show the city/hwy/combined figure for this vehicle as 11/13/12 mpg, and
"average"
> user experience at 14.6 (one respondent).  If you are getting 20 mpg, I'd
say you
> are doing very well - fully 67% better than EPA rating.  Especially good
for a
> vehicle with a curb weight of 4200 pounds, and the aerodynamics of a
parachute when
> you are travelling at speeds up to 75 mph.  It would be one of my last
choices for
> fuel economy for highway travel, but I'm sure it fits your needs.
>
> It appears the 4-cylinder engine was the only one available - there was
nothing
> larger available from the manufacturer.  I don't see that an automatic was
> available
> either.  So picking another engine or transmission or both will be an
adventure
> with
> little to go on for guidance.
>
> Are you certain that swapping engines will cost less than acquiring
another (used)
> vehicle?  I have been involved in a couple of engine swaps.  Quality used
engines
> don't come free around here.  I was quoted over $3500 for a warranteed
rebuilt
> engine a few years ago.  That didn't include any labour or delivery.  I
bought a
> used truck here for $4500 two months ago, certified roadworthy.
>
> It's a pile of work to swap engines, requiring an engine hoist or
equivalent for a
> couple of days.  Do you have alternative wheels during the course of the
> transplant?
>
> You are not talking about a bolt-in, known compatible swap either.  That
is likely
> to present some additional research and issues.  Is it worth making this
investment
> in a 20-year-old chassis - to you?
>
> Finally, it is conventional wisdom that the bigger the engine, the lower
the fuel
> economy.  We went through this when looking at my wife's last vehicle
purchase
> (2002 Saturn Vue).  4 cylinder 2.2 litre gets 21 mpg city, 6 cylinder 3.0
litre
> gets 19 mpg city.  About 10% difference.  Hwy numbers show a similar
spread.  We
> have the 4 cylinder, FWD.  We find the performance more than adequate.
>
> Darryl McMahon
>
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 20:20
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This is not what I understood as your intent from your original post,
> > which seemed
> > > to me could be seeking a justification for using overpowered vehicles,
and
> > too
> > > generic to provide a substantive response that could reliably guide
> > decisions on
> > > engine selection.
>
> --
> Darryl McMahon  http://www.econogics.com/
> It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?
> -- 
> Darryl McMahon  http://www.econogics.com/
> It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?
>
>
>
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>

Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

No problem.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 9:49
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


> Apparently not.  I was referring to a VW GTI in an earlier post and
> didn't realize you weren't.
>   Sorry.
>
> Zeke
>
> On 9/16/05, Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ???
> >
> > Are we talking about the same type of vehicle?
> >
> > I'm talking about a '85 Toyota LandCruiser BJ60 with a 3B engine.
> >
> > IIRC, the engine is runs around 2700-2800 rpm at 75 mph.
> >
> > At sea level the 3B is about 95 Hp, but, starts to have breathing
problems
> > at 3,000 ft, and I'm at 5500 ft and make trips to 10,000 - 12,000 ft.
once a
> > month or so.
> >
> > Greg H.
>
> ___
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>
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>
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>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] changing trash into fuel

[Greg and April]

It is a very energy intensive operation.

The question is does it pay back enough fuel, to make it worth while?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "biofuel" 
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 14:13
Subject: [Biofuel] changing trash into fuel


> The plasma torch system of changing trash into fuel appears to
> be catching on in Japan. This article says it can produce three to
> four times as much energy in carbon-rich gas, and 50% more
> energy than it uses in the form of hydrogen gas. Does anyone
> know more about it?
>
> htmttp://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-02-26-hot-garbage
> _x.htm
>
> "Hot trash-to-fuel technology gathering steam By Timothy
> Gardner, Reuters
>
> NEW YORK ó Got garbage? Toxic trash? Zap it with a torch three
> times hotter than the sun and gather the resulting gas to fuel
> pollution-free cars and home power units.
>
> It may seem like an idea out of a mad scientist's notebook, but
> the method ó known as plasma torch technology ó is gaining
> acceptance with governments and corporations, especially
> those with growing waste problems.
>
> "If you can reduce trash and at the same time produce a valuable
> gas, more power to you," said Charles Russomanno, a U.S.
> Department of Energy renewable energy expert.
>
> Hospital waste, municipal trash and polychlorinated biphenyls
> (PCBs), an industrial compound suspected of causing cancer,
> all can be blasted with a plasma torch to make gases that can
> be burned to produce electricity.
>
> Companies including privately owned Westinghouse Plasma
> Corp., spun off from Westinghouse Corp., Georgia-based
> Geoplasma, LLC, and British-based Tetronics Plasma ionize air
> or other gases until they conduct electricity. The process is
> similar to what goes on in a fluorescent lightbulb ó only at an
> extreme temperature of 30,000 degrees Fahrenheit.
>
> Plasma torches break waste into an obsidian-like stone, heavy
> metals that can be recovered for resale, and carbon and
> hydrogen-rich gases that burn like natural gas. One company,
> Startech Environmental, takes the process a step further, refining
> the gas through a membrane to make pure hydrogen gas for fuel
> cells.
>
> Hydrogen quest
>
> Automobile and energy companies have invested billions of
> dollars in hydrogen fuel cells that produce power through a
> chemical reaction, with water vapor as the only byproduct.
>
> President Bush has encouraged the race to hydrogen by
> seeking for next year's budget $228 million, a 43% increase, to
> develop fuel cell cars and suitable service stations. Last year, he
> launched a five-year, $1.2 billion research initiative with the aim
> of reducing dependence on foreign oil and putting fuel cell cars
> on the road by 2020.
>
> Japan, where dumping costs are high, is becoming a world
> leader in plasma technology. In 2002, Hitachi Metals along with
> Utashinai City, helped build the first plasma plant, which
> produces 8 megawatts of power by torching auto waste.
>
> Startech signed a $1.3 million contract last fall with Japan's
> Mihama Inc. to break down PCBs. In February, it signed a $34
> million deal with Italian company FP Immobiliare to torch
> computer waste. It has also offered to operate a free test unit to
> treat some of New York City's waste.
>
> "Where we put trash gets more expensive every day," said
> Carmen Cognetta, a counsel to the NYC Department of
> Sanitation.
>
> New Mariners
>
> Hydrogen is like seawater to the thirsty Ancient Mariner ó it's
> everywhere, but not in a usable form. It's the most abundant
> element in the universe, but separating it from oxygen in water
> takes large amounts of energy.
>
> Currently, most hydrogen is produced at oil refineries to meet
> petrochemical refining needs, although the process is expensive
> and the yields are small.
>
> The cheapest energy source for separating hydrogen is coal, but
> burning it can produce hazardous amounts of greenhouse
> gases and toxic compounds.
>
> In the future, energy may be provided by solar and wind power,
> which for now are too pricey.
>
> So, torch technologies have potential, says Columbia University
> geophysicist Klaus Lackner. They will provide an additional
> niche "and if your hydrogen turns out to be cheaper than that of
> your competitor, then you have a great market."
>
> Owen Connolly, director of product marketing at New York-based
> Plug Power Inc., a producer of fuel cell power systems, said 25
> cubic feet of hydrogen produces 1 kilowatt hour (KWH) of
> electricity from its power units.
>
> If the 225 million U.S. car tires disposed of annually were zapped
> by Startech units, enough hydrogen would be produced to supply
> 500,000 homes with electricity for an entire year.
>
> The more toxic the garbage, the higher the "tipping fees" for
> municipalities and the more torch processors can collect.
>
> New York City, which produces 12,000 tons of garbage per day
> and trucks it as far away as Ohio, will so

Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

???

Are we talking about the same type of vehicle?

I'm talking about a '85 Toyota LandCruiser BJ60 with a 3B engine.

IIRC, the engine is runs around 2700-2800 rpm at 75 mph.

At sea level the 3B is about 95 Hp, but, starts to have breathing problems
at 3,000 ft, and I'm at 5500 ft and make trips to 10,000 - 12,000 ft. once a
month or so.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 8:25
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


> The stock transmission was a close ratio 5 speed, which ends up doing
> about 4k rpm at 70mph.  The only way I can explain this low gearing is
> 1) it was designed for towing (not likely in a rabbit)
> 2) it was designed to reduce the space between gearing, for faster
accelleration
> 3) the gas engine is so torqless that it only has power a very high
> rpms (I think it is tuned for power between 4 and 5k.
>
> I suspect a combination of 2 and 3.  When I switch to the diesel
> engine, it can only rev to about 4.5k, and is most fuel efficient at
> 2k.  The transmission designed to go with the diesel engine has much
> higher gearing -- more like 2,800rpm at 70mph in 5th gear.  Of course
> this also has wider gaps between the gears, which is not as good with
> a diesel that has a narrower power band than a gas engine.  So I
> suppose it depends somewhat one whether you are spending alot of time
> as sustained highway driving, or more around town driving.
>
> The  VW NA diesel is actually only 55 HP...
>
> >I don't think that the transmission was optimized for fast acceleration,
> >that little 4 banger diesel with only about 85 Hp is only capable of so
> >much.The transmission is geared so low, that it doesn't take any
effort
> >to start from a dead stop in 2nd gear if necessary.
>
> >Greg H.
> >
>
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>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

The 4 banger is original equipment.

The trannie is a manual 5 sp.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 14:51
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


> 
> My advice from a practical standpoint is to put one of whatever was in 
> it back in.  If you put a 4 cylinder in place of a 6, or a 6 in place of 
> an 8 everything will be different, assuming something made within the 
> last 20 years.  The computer hookup and wiring harness will be all 
> different, exhaust will be custome, fuel delivery will be different.  If 
> your time is worth anything to you I doubt you'd ever make it back on a 
> $$ basis for the fuel saved.
> 
> The transmission might be a slighly different proposition.  Gearing it 
> so the engine RPM is slower will probably raise your mileage a little, 
> as long as you're not slowing the engine down into a less efficient 
> mode.  There's no sure way to tell without looking at the same kind of 
> car with the different options.
> 
> A manual transmission should give you a little better mileage as well, 
> but if you've got an automatic now it would seem like a nightmare to 
> setup the clutch and shifting linkage so that it works well.
> 
> My thoughts, worth at least what you paid for them:)
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

Just to start debate on something I think about everyday, when I get into my
LandCruiser.

I wonder how much extra fuel is being used, because of the small engine
size, climbing all the hills around here.

Still, I'm not knocking the 20 mpg I'm getting now, I just keep thinking it
could get better with a bigger / more powerful engine.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 20:20
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


>
> This is not what I understood as your intent from your original post,
which seemed
> to me could be seeking a justification for using overpowered vehicles, and
too
> generic to provide a substantive response that could reliably guide
decisions on
> engine selection.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

I know what you are talking about.

At 55 mph ( on the flats, no headwind, no cargo other than the spare tire,
and 1 passenger ), I have a little reserve.At 65 mph  I have almost
none.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 15:59
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


> Uh.  Passing other vehicles?  My first car was an old subaru that took
> several miles to hit 70mph on the highway.  I don't think I'll be
> disapointed by a diesel rabbit.
>

SNIP

>
> I admit that there is a legitimate safety arguement that having some
> reserve power is good.  But that arguement can rapidly turn into an
> arms race to the bottom (e.g. SUV's) if we aren't careful.  Plus, it's
> so tempting to speed if your car has the power to do so.  Which
> probably wipes out the safety advantage of having reserve power, and
> uses even more gas.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

I don't think that the transmission was optimized for fast acceleration,
that little 4 banger diesel with only about 85 Hp is only capable of so
much.The transmission is geared so low, that it doesn't take any effort
to start from a dead stop in 2nd gear if necessary.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 14:55
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


> H.  Are you sure you want to get that applied?  The academics will
> be appalled.  :)
>
> I am doing that right now with a VW rabbit, and I have settled on a
> SVO engine, vs an electric motor (with renewable energy to charge the
> batteries).  The size and design of the engine is more dictacted by
> what is available, rather than what would be ideal.  Same with the
> transmission.  Luckily there are different transmission options that
> fit this vehical, so I can choose one which will be more efficient
> with the diesel engine than the stock transmission which was optimized
> for fast acceleration.  This will not be the ideal solution based
> soley on engineering -- but it the one that is the best I can come up
> now with based on the constraints of finances, DOT regulations, fuel
> availability and characteristics, and a commute with lots of elevation
> change
>
> On 9/15/05, Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, given the same vehicle ( and about the same weight ), how does one
go
> > about picking a replacement engine and perhaps the replacing the
> > transmission as well?
> >
> > The reason I ask, is that I would like to replace the engine I have with
a
> > better engine, but, I don't want to over power.
> >
> > Greg H.
> >
> >
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: Michael Redler
> > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 13:07
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?
> >
> >
> >
> > I knew it wouldn't take long for these (good) questions to come up.
> >
> > I'm just concerned that we don't get too hung up on cars designed for
> > maximum efficiency vs maximum power. Some of the methods used to get
fuel
> > and air to high horsepower engines resemble toilet bowls and a lot of
that
> > fuel ends up not getting burned.
> >
> > The biggest question I have is; If you are including the vehicle as a
whole,
> > weight has to be part of the discussion unless (perhaps) if you assume
> > regenerative breaking on all cars. It's tough to ignore the
transformation
> > of energy into heat at the brakes.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Are we comparing exactly the same weight/aerodynamics/rolling
> > resistance car here, with just different powered engines? Or complete
> > different cars like a metro, corolla, and a ferarri.
> >
> > I think for otherwise identical cars, a medium sized engine (but
> > smaller than what most cars come with nowdays) will get better
> > mileage, because it can accellerate fast enough to get out of the fuel
> > dumping acceleration, and into more fuel efficient cruising faster.
> > But if it's to large, it's less efficient at cruising speed because of
> > low part load efficiency. And if it's too small, it it always trying
> > futiley to accellerate, instead of cruising. Also, due to real fixed
> > ratio transmissions, a less powerful engine may spend more time at a
> > higher RPM, where the fuel efficiency in grams/kWh is less, whereas a
> > higher power engine could downshift sooner.
> >
> > There is also the human factor, that a more powerful car will entice
> > lead footedness and speeding, and thus get worse gas mileage than an
> > underpowered car that you just accept your slowness
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >
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> >
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> >
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> > messages):
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

Bingo!

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rodgers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 15:27
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


> Very interesting discussion here.
> How many people here are swapping engines?
> I was giving some thought to removing the 351 ci gasaholic in my Ford
> f150 and replacing it with a diesel engine.
> Years ago (before I saw the advantage of diesel) I pulled a engine
> from my Mercedes 240d and did major mods to convert it to gas fuel
> injected V6.
> Looking for more projects. right???
> Brian Rodgers
>
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>


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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

With a GVWR of 5360, an 80-85 HP 4 banger, 
grades of up to 8% and stop signs & stop lights that stop you in the 
middle of the hill, going to a smaller engine is not what I have in mind. 

 
Greg H.
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kirk 
  McLoren 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 
  15:35
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable 
  statement?
  
  Too underpowered and the vehicle will be too slow to overtake and pass 
  other vehicles.
  KirkGreg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  



Ok, given the same vehicle ( and about 
the same weight ), how does one go about picking a replacement engine and 
perhaps the replacing the transmission as well?
 
The reason I ask, is that I would like 
to replace the engine I have with a better engine, but, I don't want to over 
power.
 
Greg H.
 

   
  
  
  Yahoo! for GoodClick 
  here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. 
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

Ok, given the same vehicle ( and about the 
same weight ), how does one go about picking a replacement engine and 
perhaps the replacing the transmission as well?
 
The reason I ask, is that I would like to 
replace the engine I have with a better engine, but, I don't want to over 
power.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 
  13:07
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable 
  statement?
  
  
  I knew it wouldn't take long for these (good) questions to come up.
   
  I'm just concerned that we don't get too hung up on cars designed for 
  maximum efficiency vs maximum power. Some of the methods used to get fuel 
  and air to high horsepower engines resemble toilet bowls and a lot of that 
  fuel ends up not getting burned.
   
  The biggest question I have is; If you are including the vehicle as a 
  whole, weight has to be part of the discussion unless (perhaps) if you assume 
  regenerative breaking on all cars. It's tough to ignore the transformation of 
  energy into heat at the brakes.
   
  MikeZeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  Are 
we comparing exactly the same weight/aerodynamics/rollingresistance car 
here, with just different powered engines? Or completedifferent cars 
like a metro, corolla, and a ferarri.I think for otherwise identical 
cars, a medium sized engine (butsmaller than what most cars come with 
nowdays) will get bettermileage, because it can accellerate fast enough 
to get out of the fueldumping acceleration, and into more fuel efficient 
cruising faster. But if it's to large, it's less efficient at cruising 
speed because oflow part load efficiency. And if it's too small, it it 
always tryingfutiley to accellerate, instead of cruising. Also, due to 
real fixedratio transmissions, a less powerful engine may spend more 
time at ahigher RPM, where the fuel efficiency in grams/kWh is less, 
whereas ahigher power engine could downshift sooner.There is 
also the human factor, that a more powerful car will enticelead 
footedness and speeding, and thus get worse gas mileage than 
anunderpowered car that you just accept your 
  slowness
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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

True.

OTOH, if the job must be done, then you have to choose the best tool
available from the limited selection that is available.

That is why you bother to learn what the best alternative is.

If one size of engine is inefficient, replacing it with a more efficient
engine is more cost effective than replacing the entire vehicle.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 6:40
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


>
> Why bother?
>
> The wrong tool for the job is the wrong tool for the job.  If you want to
split a
> diamond, neither a sledge hammer nor a feather duster will work.
>
> Instead of fostering a debate about which of two wrong answers is less
wrong, let's
> put our energies into finding correct answers, and implementing them.
>
> If all goes according to plan today, the pickup truck I acquired at the
end of June
> will get its first tankful of B20.  It's been a long road, but even slow
progress
> is still progress.
>
> Darryl McMahon
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

It's not Dolittle, or bombers that I know of, but I do know that Charles A.
Lindbergh, taught P-38 pilots how to get the best of the long range
capabilities of the P-38's in the pacific during the war.

I find it interesting, and to the best of my knowledge, fuel economy is a
concern of the list.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 14:05
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Debatable statement?


> Joe Street wrote:
>

SNIP

> Someone - James Dolittle? made this famous during world war II.  They
> had adjustable propellers on long range bombers, and they didn't have
> enough range to bomb some pacific islands.  Jamie?  Jimmy?  showed them
> they could change the propeller settings and "lug the engines down".
> Lowering the RPM on the engines (and increasing the BMEP of the engine)
> increased efficiency enough they could reach the island they wanted to
> bomb.  Apologies to all for mangling the story - I forget the islands
> name but took the fuel efficiency lesson away.
>
> Hope someone finds it interesting; we've wandered a long ways away from
> biodiesel.  I'll take it offline if anyone wants to talk more about it.
>
> --- David
>
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>


-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
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[Biofuel] Debatable statement?

[Greg and April]

True or False
Underpowered vehicles can be just as inefficient as overpowered vehicles.
Why or why not?
 
Greg H.
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] New Orleans mayor failed to use school buses for 4 days

[Greg and April]

Kirk,
 
Where is the photo mentioned?
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Kirk 
  McLoren 
  To: biofuel 
  Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2005 
  10:55
  Subject: [Biofuel] New Orleans mayor 
  failed to use school buses for 4 days
  
  
  
SNIP
See photo below of 
flooded New Orleans school buses, which had been left sitting in the 
city parking lot /unused/ before the hurricane hit, because the mayor 
was too stupid to use them to help his own residents evacuate the city. 
See also the excerpt below the photo, from the Louisiana State Disaster 
Plan, authorizing cities to use local school buses and other forms of 
public transportation to evacuate 
residents.*
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Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost

[Greg and April]

He spent the day on the ground today, walking parts of New Orleans, and
Mississippi.

Just like 9/11, it was a few days after it happened.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 20:45
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] How New Orleans Was Lost


Thanks.

I personally can't believe all he did was fly by in his jet and look
down.  This is a catastrophe far worse than 9/11 and all he does is a
fly by?
I can't even get started on Iraq because I don't want to get wound up
right now.

Hakan Falk wrote:

>Mike,
>
>LOL, you did a very good joke, I liked it.
>
>Hakan
>
>At 16:53 02/09/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>>Whine whine.  At least he caught Osama Bin Laden, just like he promised.
>>
>>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Taryn,
>>>
>>>You must admit that he killed many more in Iraq for the money,
>>>he is responsible for those death also, maybe he call that
>>>efficiency instead. More killed for the money. I can guarantee
>>>that the pictures of devastated people that we now see from
>>>Orleans, have been going on for many years in Iraq. So it is
>>>not only Bush fault, he only raised the bar and achieved much
>>>more in shorter time frame.
>>>
>>>When media show the desperation among the Iraqi people, it
>>>is not many who cares, maybe Orleans will create more of
>>>compassion for the country that US occupy. The homes that
>>>are destroyed and people killed in Iraq, are 100's times more
>>>than Orleans.
>>>
>>>Hakan
>>>
>>>
>>>At 08:38 02/09/2005, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
Wow, nice catch Bede, Fits right in with "is there blame?"

I just love to blame stuff on Bush and his cronies. Except...I'm not
sure that all the kings men could have put Orleans together again.

Certainly, having pissed away the country's emergency resources, Bush
is responsible for many of the deaths in La and Ms. Kinda like stupid
kids who empty the fire extinguishers in school.  But I think Katrina,
and years of head-in-the-sand development is what drowned Orleans.

taryn
http://ornae.com/

On Sep 1, 2005, at 9:16 PM, Bede wrote:





>http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10062.htm
>
>
>How New Orleans Was Lost
>
>By Paul Craig Roberts
>
>09/01/05 "Antiwar" -- -- Chalk up the city of New Orleans as a cost of
>Bush's Iraq war.
>
>There were not enough helicopters to repair the breached levees and
>rescue
>people trapped by rising water. Nor are there enough Louisiana National
>Guardsmen available to help with rescue efforts and to patrol against
>looting.
>
>The situation is the same in Mississippi.
>
>The National Guard and helicopters are off on a fool's mission in Iraq.
>
>The National Guard is in Iraq because fanatical neoconservatives in
>the Bush
>administration were determined to invade the Middle East and because
>incompetent Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld refused to listen to the
>generals,
>who told him there were not enough regular troops available to do the
>job.
>
>After the invasion, the arrogant Rumsfeld found out that the generals
>were
>right. The National Guard was called up to fill in the gaping gaps.
>
>Now the Guardsmen, trapped in the Iraqi quagmire, are watching on TV
>the
>families they left behind trapped by rising waters and wondering if the
>floating bodies are family members. None know where their dislocated
>families are, but, shades of Fallujah, they do see their destroyed
>homes.
>
>The mayor of New Orleans was counting on helicopters to put in place
>massive
>sandbags to repair the levee. However, someone called the few
>helicopters
>away to rescue people from rooftops. The rising water overwhelmed the
>massive pumping stations, and New Orleans disappeared under deep water.
>
>What a terrible casualty of the Iraqi war ­ one of our oldest and most
>beautiful cities, a famous city, a historic city.
>
>Distracted by its phony war on terrorism, the U.S. government had made
>no
>preparations in the event Hurricane Katrina brought catastrophe to New
>Orleans. No contingency plan existed. Only now after the disaster are
>FEMA
>and the Corps of Engineers trying to assemble the material and
>equipment to
>save New Orleans from the fate of Atlantis.
>
>Even worse, articles in the New Orleans Times-Picayune and public
>statements
>by emergency management chiefs in New Orleans make it clear that the
>Bush
>administration slashed the funding for the Corps of Engineers'
>projects to
>strengthen and raise the New Orleans levees and diverted the money to
>the
>Iraq war.
>
>Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, told
>the
>New Orleans Times-Picayune (June 8, 2004): "It appears t

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

Mike,

I have been looking at the pdf link, in your post, and I am not
understanding your reference.

Could you please elaborate?


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 20:03
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> I want to build my 2 million dollar dreamhouse on the beach and make the
> taxpayers foot the bill when it gets flattened.
> See: http://www.fema.gov/cis/DE.pdf  Rehoboth Beach is almost all on a
> barrier island.  It's nuts to build there,
> and nuts to keep paying to put the houses back.  But I guess the money
> is better spent than being used in Iraq.
>
> Greg and April wrote:
>
> >Yes.
> >
> >If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
> >occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
the
> >like ), and make preparations for them.
> >
> >Like I said in another post:
> >
> >"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
selves
> >and still got into trouble.
> >
> >BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
> >warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
else
> >to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
case
> >of beer, than a bus ticket.".
> >
> >Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
min
> >warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
> >live below a dam.
> >
> >If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
> >out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
> >that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
> >the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
> >chance actualy happens.
> >
> >If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
> >hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.
> >
> >If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
> >chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near
a
> >coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.
> >
> >Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
> >ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not
for
> >someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water
that
> >could save their life.
> >
> >7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
> >case of beer.
> >
> >If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect
help
> >after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off
putting
> >the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.
With
> >a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
> >together, I have put several together for my family.
> >
> >If I had to leave the house:
> >I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
> >With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
> >With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks
in
> >some comfort.
> >With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
> >sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.
> >
> >If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter,
and
> >4+ months in the summer.
> >
> >I do not live in a flood plain.
> >
> >I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
> >fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I
could
> >install in a day or so ), to cook food.
> >
> >I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.
> >
> >I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
> >another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
> >heater ).
> >
> >I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.
> >
> >I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
> >splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several
times
> >when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).
> >
> >I'll say it now:
> >
> >If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
> >would be more than happy to give any help I can!
> >
> >In part it'

Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

[Greg and April]

UV would be my first choice if the 
electrical system could take it.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 
  11:05
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, 
  etc. (was Katrina..
  Right so you throw a chunk of silver in your cistern and put an 
  ozonizer or UV in the delivery line close to the point of use.  

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Re: [Biofuel] rockets, turbines and compressed air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first, your opinions (please).

[Greg and April]

Let me guess, potassium chlorate and sugar, cooked like candy to the hard
crack stage on a candy thermometer?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Alt.EnergyNetwork" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 15:26
Subject: [Biofuel] rockets,turbines and compressed
air..was..[DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like totry something...but first, your
opinions (please).


> Hi all,
>
> I used to be fascinated by this stuff when I was a kid and
> used to do a lot of pyro with building solid fuel model rockets.
> My friends and I would mix the materials on the kitchen stove
> and pour the molten fuel into cardboard tubes to harden around
> an cone shape at the bottom of the tube.


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

There is an ant and the grasshopper thing 
going on here.
Yes in the story, the grasshopper ends up 
singing for his supper, but, what do we do in 
the real world?
 
Now, I'm not saying that all of the people 
in NO are bad and I agree that the people need help, but, how do you help, 
without rewarding, the bad behavior of the people that are doing the bad 
things?

 
In the news reports I have seen, the people 
just don't know what to do.
 
It is said that just sitting around doing 
nothing, but, thinking how bad things are, is psychologically bad. 

 
Do you start forming work groups, to start 
cleaning up the mess or handing out supplies, thus helping the people to 
help themselves?
 
Greg H.
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 
  7:04
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  
  
   
  Being apologetic doesn't change the fact that these kinds of 
  generalizations express a kind of discrimination that, at best has no 
  value and at worst becomes the seed for something worse.
   
  Mike Garth & Kim Travis 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Greetings,No 
one but you has brought up any stereo types. If you honestly believe 
that everyone who has been injured by this storm is an innocent 
bystander, then enjoy your rose colored glasses. Most of us feel anger 
that children died because their parents would not heed warnings. We 
never said that every child's death was it's parents fault, or anything 
like that. However, in the world I live in, there are people who expect 
others to do for them, what they should be doing for themselves. It is 
sad that their children have paid an ultimate price for their 
behavior.Bright Blessings,Kim
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..

[Greg and April]

Brian,

How is your electrical supply?The reason I ask, is that I have an idea,
but, it requires electricity to use.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rodgers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:14
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Silver, chlorine, etc. (was Katrina..


> This is better.
> I am isolated here for the long weekend at the ranch with no high
> speed Internet (poor me, I know) no media either, but that is a
> choice. Anyway, the Katrina thread was a bit much for me as I have no
> idea what is happening down there on the Gulf Coast.It does sound
> awful, but I have wonder if the media isn't making it look even worse
> than it really is. Don't know, I am here not there.
>
> Back to the silver & copper as oxidisers in water. I think that my
> fear of stagnant water comes directly from my wife who has had
> Legionnaires disease. She of course does not trust water older that a
> few weeks. Coincidentally she has a teaching degree in biology and she
> leans toward bleach. Of course bleaching our stored drinking water  is
> out of the question. Yuk.
> Then the idea of using hydrogen peroxide, it never occurred to me to
> use it for anything except cleansing wounds. Once again you all get me
> thinking more.
> I will run these ideas by my gal. Thank you.
> Brian Rodgers
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

Why not Sony?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Hayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:56
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> 
> I prefer Blaupunkt over Pioneer, but my friend prefers Aiwa. Anything is 
> better than Sony.
> 


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

No. 
 
I'm saying that when specialist from the 
field of meteorology say it's going to be a bad storm and they should evacuate 
coastal areas, people should believe them.
 
I'm saying that when specialist from the 
field of geology say that a any break in the levies would put 20 feet ( or 
more ) of water in parts of New Orleans, people should believe 
them.
 
I'm saying that when specialist from 
the field of disaster relief and disaster preparedness, say not to expect any 
direct help from the government for the first 72 hrs after a disaster, people 
should believe them.
 
That is what I'm am saying.
 
What you are hearing from me is not a 
matter of expressing less sympathy as the results of matters 
getting worse, but, of extreme frustration on my part, from knowing, 
that part of this suffering, did not have to happen, had more planning been 
done.
 
" People don't plan to 
fail.    People just fail to plan ".
 
The more suffering I'm hearing about, 
the more frustrated I am getting.    I am extremely 
frustrated about the whole situation, and there is not much more I can do, other 
than I have already done, ( other than to warn other's ) and I don't like 
it one little bit. 
 
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Michael Redler 
  
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  14:54
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New 
  Orleans. Is There Blame?
  
  
  Whatever happened to "From Each According To His Abilities, To Each 
  According To His Needs"?
   
  ...oh, I forgot. That never really caught on in the US (sorry, couldn't 
  help myself).
   
  So Greg, when you say stuff like "
   
  "If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
   
  Are you saying that we should scold them first, then help them? Maybe you 
  mean that they "made their bed" and now they should "lay in it" as the saying 
  goes.
  "If people would pay attention when the experts tell them..."
   
  You mean like, civil servants, in uniform like the police or something. 
  That's the funny part Greg. Those "experts" have been barking orders at 
  some of the people down there for decades. You would think that they would 
  listen and maybe trust them when they say something. By the way, ...ever watch 
  Mississippi Burning? ...great movie!
   
  I'm sure that there is a percentage of people who have exercised poor 
  judgment. Who hasn't exercised poor judgment? The irony here is how 
  you express less sympathy as the suffering from those mistakes gets 
  worse.
   
  Mike"Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  wrote:
  You 
can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.Put 
yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleadingfor 
help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).That's 
what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing informationfreely 
to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greaterthan any 
one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupidmistake, 
should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read yourposts 
doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry. 
Regards,Emil-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Greg andAprilSent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 
PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina 
slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?Yes.If people live in an 
area, they should learn of dangerous naturaloccurrences ( quakes, 
tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards andthelike ), and make 
preparations for them.Like I said in another post:"I have no 
issue with those that TRIED to do something to help themselvesand 
still got into trouble.BUT I do have issues with those that did 
NOTHING ( despite all thewarnings ) to help them selves then expect the 
government and everyoneelseto drop what their doing and save them, 
because they would rather buy acaseof beer, than a bus 
ticket.".Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they 
may only have 5minwarning to get to higher ground, and may lose 
everything they should notlive below a dam.If people are going 
to fly, they need to take it upon them selves tofindout what kind of 
aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out ifthat model of 
aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and thentakethe 
personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in 
amillionchance actualy happens.If one looks at the past one 
can see that a given area is subject tohurricanes and should prepare 
accordingly.If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the 
fact that you haveachance of getting flooded. If you live within 50 
ft of sea level nearacoast, expect that the tidal surge could very 
well reach you.Empathy? My empathy is for the kids that couldn't 
leave because o

Re: [Biofuel] [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...butfirst, your opinions (please).

[Greg and April]

I think it was in mid 2004 that the US gov, 
leaned on the NZ gov, claiming that the information that he was giving out was 
causing a terrorist threat.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Peter 
  Morgan 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  13:08
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [DIYGasTurbines] 
  Re: I'd like to try something...butfirst, your opinions (please).
  
  
  It was about 4 months ago, no luck contacting anyone, next time I am in NZ, 
  I will be sure to drop in though...lol
  
  From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: 
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: 
  <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Subject: 
  Re: [Biofuel] [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...butfirst, 
  your opinions (please).Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:05:11 
  -0600
  
  

  
  
I'm not surprised.
 
When did you send the 
money?
 
That guy was stepped on big time by Big 
Brother after 9-11.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Peter Morgan 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  12:21
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] 
  [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions 
  (please).
  
  
  
  Just to warn you all...I sent my money to
   New pulse jet engine http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/xjet.shtml
  And did not get my stuff !
  Best Regards
  
  


From:  Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To:  Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:  Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:  Re: 
[Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try 
something...but first, your opinions 
(please).Date:  Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:11:39 
-0400>>>Brian Rodgers wrote:>> 
>You guys are a trip.> >> >>LOL there is 
no stopping some people.>Here you will like this one for 
alternative 
transportation>http://www.aeros-uk.co.uk/html/jetbug.html>It 
can burn biodiesel!!>Joe>>> >This info 
has been some of the most entertaining reading I have done in 
years.> >Starting with: Build your own junkyard 
turbine> >http://www.junkyardjet.com/primitive.html> 
>& New pulse jet engine 
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/xjet.shtml> >I then went to see 
what Joe was talking about with:coanda effect and> >the 
ferroelectric effect.> >very cool stuff: Using The Coanda 
Effect In A Pulsejet:> 
>http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/coanda.shtml &> 
>http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/coanda.htm> >Thank you for 
'making my day"> >Brian Rodgers> >> 
>___> >Biofuel 
mailing list> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> 
>> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> 
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> >> 
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):> 
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> 
>> >> 
>>>>___>Biofuel 
mailing 
list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel 
at Journey to 
Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search 
the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>
  
  

  ___Biofuel mailing 
  listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel 
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Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).

[Greg and April]

I think you are right, but, that doesn't 
help him right now.
 
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  15:12
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: 
  [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions 
  (please).
  The jury is still out on that.  They had no legal grounds 
  for shutting him down (last I heard)JoeGreg and April wrote:
  



Yes, and he was shut down because 
governments panicked.
 
Greg H.
 

  - 
  Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: 
  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: 
  Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:38
  Subject: 
  Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try 
  something...but first, your opinions (please).
  
  snip
  Fun stuff!  Pulse jets are not just for the military 
  anymore! There is even a guy talking about building his own personal 
  cruise missile. 
  =-O       
  Talk about civil disobedience!JoeMichael Redler 
  wrote:
  


I've been researching the feasibility of building a 
biofuel turbojet engine.
 
Apparently, it's not as far fetched as one might think. I'm still 
unsure of thermal efficiency and if it's competitive with other cycles. 
In theory, it should be.
 
Has anyone done similar research?
 
MikeNick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]From: 
  "Nick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
  Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:00:46 -Subject: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd 
  like to try something...but first, your opinions 
  (please).Don and John have both built fine shaft engines 
  so there is no reason why you can't build yourself an auxilliary 
  generator. You should be abe to use a very small gas generator 
  perhaps couple to the turbine of a slightly larger turbo. replace 
  the compressor with a step down gearing and into a generator 
  see what John has built here... http://www.nickhaddock.co.uk/jetgallery.htm 
  Nick :-)--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
  Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> 
  > Hi everyone,> > Has anyone attached a fan 
  w/shaft after the cumbustor as a power take off and has anyone 
  used a turbojet for power generation. If this is feasible I'd like 
  to build a small auxiliary generator.> > If I get a lot 
  of "thumbs down" on that idea, that's OK too. It was just a 
  thought.> > Mike
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

No you shouldn't be dumped from the list.

Let's me see if I can put it in terms of your reactor.

If a guy down the street designed a reactor, and it caught fire.

2 months later he builds it again, and it catches fire again.

Who is at fault?

A different person hearing about biodiesel decides to build the same type of
reactor, despite hearing about the fires, and that one catches fire.Who
would be at fault?

A third person finds out about BioDiesel and  builds this reactor design,
and it catches fire.   Who is at fault?

And a 4th person and a 5th person and so on, and most of the times the
reactor designs catch fire.Who is at fault for the fires?

Ok now it is common knowledge that this reactor design is likely to catch
fires sooner or later.

What about if after the fires, you built the same design, despite being
warned many times that this is a dangerous design?
Who's fault would it be, that your reactor caught fire and burned down your
house, and your wife or kid ended up with 2nd degree burns because of it?
How do you think the people that warned you would feel, that they warned
you, but, you failed to listen?Would they feel sorrier for you that your
reactor burned down or sorrier for the person that ended up with the 2
degree burn?I think so.

How would you feel, if you know a person was warned that a reactor design
was dangerous, many times, before they built it, and they still built it?
What about after the reactor burned down and someone was injured or killed
because the warnings were not heeded?Sure, you would feel bad, that it
happened, but, you would also be angry, because the hurt and the pain need
not have been as severe if some precautions were taken.

I hurt, that it happened, but, in many ways I am extremely angry with the
situation, because I know, without any doubt, that it need not have been
that bad ( or be as bad as it is ) had more people been prepared, or taken
more steps to be prepared for the worst.Not just with individuals, but,
with the city of New Orleans, for it sure does not look like they had any
comprehensive disaster plan.And if anybody should have had a plan in
place to deal with a worst case scenario, they should have.The state is
just as guilty, they knew how bad it could get for years, heck I knew for 15
years that this could happen, so did many other, and the warnings were out
there.Unfortunately it always starts with the individuals, because, it
almost always takes at least 72 hrs to really get people and supplies moving
to those that needs it.

What am I doing about it?

It doesn't matter, because someone could claim I'm making it up, and how
would I prove a negative wrong?

Greg H.




- Original Message - 
From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:37
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> You can either shrug it off or have compassion for a fellow human being.
> Put yourself in their place for a second (empathy). They are pleading
> for help even though you think they might not deserve it (have mercy).
> That's what drew me to this list in the first place; sharing information
> freely to help each other. We generate a synergy of ideas here greater
> than any one person. If my reactor catches fire because I made a stupid
> mistake, should I be dropped from the list? What I feel when I read your
> posts doesn't seem to fit. It bothers me. I'm sorry.
>
> Regards,
> Emil
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg and
> April
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 1:47 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
> Yes.
>
> If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
> occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and
> the
> like ), and make preparations for them.
>
> Like I said in another post:
>
> "I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them
> selves
> and still got into trouble.
>
> BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
> warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone
> else
> to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a
> case
> of beer, than a bus ticket.".
>
> Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5
> min
> warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
> live below a dam.
>
> If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to
> find
> out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
> that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then
> take
>

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

That's where you are wrong Todd.

For many things I am still at the bottom of the heap, and freely admit it.

For other things I have learned from other peoples mistakes, and admit to
that too.

Other things I learned from my own mistakes, nothing wrong with that either.

Simply put, I refuse to be a totaly hopeless victim and try to plan
accordingly.

I am on a budget just like many of those people.I have been stuck alone
in a blizzard 4 days without any contact with the outside or food other than
2 cans of soup and a few crackers that I had with me, so you can not say
that I haven't " been on a roof top ", and don't know what it's like.

Preparations can be made if you make the effort.

I made the effort, it can be done.

There is always something that can be done.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 13:27
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> You know Greg,
>
> Sometimes doing nothing is the best that anyone can do. I guess it's
> been a long time since you've been at the bottom of the heap, having few
> or no options and nothing much else available to you other than hope
> that it gets no worse.
>
> I wonder what roofs you'd have been standing on if you were in some of
> those persons situations.
>
> But instead of you attempting to understand what the worst of worst
> situations could be, even before any calamity, I suppose we get to
> listen to you going on, issuing more of the same thoughtless mimickery
> as if everyone in the world has been afforded the same opportunities as
you.
>
> Simply put? Your superiority complex, arrogance and carelessness are
> showing.
>
> Todd Swearingen
>


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Re: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel

[Greg and April]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is, BioDiesel does not have to BTU's of jet fuel ( jet fuel
is a highly refined cozen to jet fuel with allot of BTU's per gal ), nor
does it have the ability to take the low temperatures that jet fuel would
encounter at altitude.

These things are workable, but, then you have to carry more fuel, and less
cargo, and heated fuel tanks and fuel lines.This adds weight and costs
to every aircraft, that is unacceptable.Jet travel is also one of the
least efficient forms of transportation there is.Using biodiesel would
only make it more inefficient.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "des" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Biofuel List" 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 8:46
Subject: [Biofuel] B100 and jet fuel


> A neighbor who recently retired from the airline industry has been
> asking me lately if there's a biofuel that can be substituted for jet
> fuel, and although I didn't know at the time, I've done some research
> since, and see that jet fuel is a variant of diesel.
>
> Any one out there know what kind of variant jet fuel is of diesel, (I
> seem to understand that it resembles kerosene) and can jet fuel be grown?
>
> doug swanson (in Ellijay, GA, not far from Atlanta GA, where gas prices
> spiked up to $6.00/gal. for a few hours yesterday)
>
> -- 
> All generalizations are false.  Including this one.
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
> This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
> No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
> All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits.
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).

[Greg and April]

I'm not surprised.
 
When did you send the money?
 
That guy was stepped on big time by Big 
Brother after 9-11.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Peter 
  Morgan 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 
  12:21
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [DIYGasTurbines] 
  Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).
  
  
  
  Just to warn you all...I sent my money to
   New pulse jet engine http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/xjet.shtml
  And did not get my stuff !
  Best Regards
  
  


From:  Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To:  Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo:  Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject:  Re: 
[Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try 
something...but first, your opinions 
(please).Date:  Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:11:39 
-0400>>>Brian Rodgers wrote:>> 
>You guys are a trip.> >> >>LOL there is no 
stopping some people.>Here you will like this one for alternative 
transportation>http://www.aeros-uk.co.uk/html/jetbug.html>It 
can burn biodiesel!!>Joe>>> >This info has 
been some of the most entertaining reading I have done in years.> 
>Starting with: Build your own junkyard turbine> 
>http://www.junkyardjet.com/primitive.html> >& New pulse 
jet engine http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/xjet.shtml> >I then went 
to see what Joe was talking about with:coanda effect and> >the 
ferroelectric effect.> >very cool stuff: Using The Coanda Effect 
In A Pulsejet:> >http://www.aardvark.co.nz/pjet/coanda.shtml 
&> >http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/coanda.htm> >Thank 
you for 'making my day"> >Brian Rodgers> >> 
>___> >Biofuel 
mailing list> >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> 
>> >Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> 
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> >> >Search 
the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):> 
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> 
>> >> 
___>Biofuel 
mailing 
list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel 
at Journey to 
Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search 
the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>
  
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions (please).

[Greg and April]

Yes, and he was shut down because 
governments panicked.
 
Greg H.
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 
  11:38
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Cross Posted: Fwd: 
  [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like to try something...but first, your opinions 
  (please).
  
  snip
  Fun stuff!  Pulse jets are not just for the military anymore! 
  There is even a guy talking about building his own personal cruise 
  missile. 
  =-O       Talk 
  about civil disobedience!JoeMichael Redler wrote:
  


I've been researching the feasibility of building a 
biofuel turbojet engine.
 
Apparently, it's not as far fetched as one might think. I'm still 
unsure of thermal efficiency and if it's competitive with other cycles. In 
theory, it should be.
 
Has anyone done similar research?
 
MikeNick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]From: 
  "Nick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
  Wed, 31 Aug 2005 16:00:46 -Subject: [DIYGasTurbines] Re: I'd like 
  to try something...but first, your opinions (please).Don and 
  John have both built fine shaft engines so there is no reason why you 
  can't build yourself an auxilliary generator. You should be abe to use 
  a very small gas generator perhaps couple to the turbine of a slightly 
  larger turbo. replace the compressor with a step down gearing and into 
  a generator see what John has built here... http://www.nickhaddock.co.uk/jetgallery.htm 
  Nick :-)--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
  Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> 
  > Hi everyone,> > Has anyone attached a fan w/shaft 
  after the cumbustor as a power take off and has anyone used a turbojet 
  for power generation. If this is feasible I'd like to build a small 
  auxiliary generator.> > If I get a lot of "thumbs down" on 
  that idea, that's OK too. It was just a thought.> > 
  Mike
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

There are a few tricks to keeping water fresh.

1)Use distilled water.If you start with a sanitized barrel, and fill
it with distilled water, there is nothing to 'go bad'.

2) Rotate it every 6-8 months.

3)Bubble air through it before use.Water really doesn't go bad
unless something wasn't clean to begin with, but, it can go flat.We are
used to drinking water with some air dissolved into it, but, with water just
sitting around, the air will eventually escape from the water.

4)Remember that a doctor can cure a water born disease, but, he can not
cure a case of death by dehydration.


Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rodgers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:36
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

SNIP

>
> How do you keep stored water fresh?
> Brian
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

Yes.

If people live in an area, they should learn of dangerous natural
occurrences ( quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, tidal waves, blizzards and the
like ), and make preparations for them.

Like I said in another post:

"I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
of beer, than a bus ticket.".

Dams fail, if people are not willing to accept that they may only have 5 min
warning to get to higher ground, and may lose everything they should not
live below a dam.

If people are going to fly, they need to take it upon them selves to find
out what kind of aircraft they are going to be flying on and find out if
that model of aircraft has a good history of flight safety, and then take
the personal responsibility to accept that sometimes the one in a million
chance actualy happens.

If one looks at the past one can see that a given area is subject to
hurricanes and should prepare accordingly.

If you live below sea level near a coast, expect the fact that you have a
chance of getting flooded.If you live within 50 ft of sea level near a
coast, expect that the tidal surge could very well reach you.

Empathy?My empathy is for the kids that couldn't leave because of
ignorant parents and for the people that tried and still failed.Not for
someone that bought a case of beer, instead of a 5 gal bucket of water that
could save their life.

7 MRE's can keep a person alive for 2 weeks, and cost about the same as a
case of beer.

If people would pay attention when the experts tell them not to expect help
after a disaster for at least 72 hrs, they would be allot better off putting
the money to a 72 hr kit than spending it to drink that stupid beer.With
a little ingenuity, 72 hr kits are not expensive nor are they hard to put
together, I have put several together for my family.

If I had to leave the house:
I can with 5 min notice, keep my family of 4 going for 24 hrs.
With 20 min notice, I can keep my family going 72 hrs, with some shelter.
With an 1 hour notice, I can keep my family going for more than 2 weeks in
some comfort.
With 1 day of notice, I can hook up with a couple of friends and my 2
sisters, and live comfortably for a month with out any other assistance.

If I don't have to leave the house, I'm good for 1 month in the winter, and
4+ months in the summer.

I do not live in a flood plain.

I have a little multi-fuel stove, that can burn any liquid fuel, and a
fireplace that can burn any solid fuel ( I have a little wood stove I could
install in a day or so ), to cook food.

I scrounged most of the materials and built a safe room in the basement.

I have three 55 gal barrels filled with water, plus enough containers for
another 500 gal of water ( and that is not counting the 55 gal water
heater ).

I have a chain saw and enough fuel to keep it going for a week strait.

I also have a 5ft cross cut timber saw, a couple of axes, a maul and some
splitting wedges, and know how to make wood wedges ( done it several times
when my metal wedges were stuck or not available ).

I'll say it now:

If anyone on this list, would like help putting together a 72 hr kit, I
would be more than happy to give any help I can!

In part it's a little like learning to make BioDiesel because the DinoDiesel
is running out.

Just remember, is going to be extremely hard to put one together, during an
emergency, so do it before it occurs.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:33
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> Would you feel the same way if people died in quakes in Japan or
> California? What about Sri Lanka? How about a plane crash, dam breech,
> eruption or tornado? Some empathy here would be nice. No one is perfect.
> No one can predict the future.
>
> Regards,
> Emil
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

Were you inquiring 'bad' as in micro-organisms or 'bad' as to taste?

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Rodgers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:51
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> Thanks for the info Emil.
> I remember now reading of the silver coin in water from another thread.
> Somehow I think it sounds kind of weird though.
> We use untreated well water and I could stand a bit of chlorine in an
emergency.
> Usually we have some water supply interruption during Winter.
> It is reassuring to have a palatable water supply stored.
> Better safe than sorry.
> Brian
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

I have no issue with those that TRIED to do something to help them selves
and still got into trouble.

BUT I do have issues with those that did NOTHING  ( despite all the
warnings ) to help them selves then expect the government and everyone else
to drop what their doing and save them, because they would rather buy a case
of beer, than a bus ticket.
I have major issues with adults that through their stupidity and ignorance
killed their kids, like I said on another list:
" My heart breaks, for the kids that had no choice because their parents
were to stupid, to even try to get out of the way, and I curse those parents
for risking their kids life.If I had a say in the matter, I would bring
each and everyone of them up on charges of child endangerment.".

I had a guy on that list try and tell me that they had no warning that the
hurricane was going to be that bad, after I showed him the forecast and
warnings posted by The National Hurricane Center.He then asked me how
these people were supposed to get these warnings off the internet when the
people had no power, then I showed him that the warnings that Katrina was
going to grow stronger were posted Even As The Hurricane Was Leaving The
Florida Coast

It's one thing to break into a store to get food and water to survive after
a disaster, after your supplies have run out, it's another thing entirely
to, steal TV's, VCR's, DVD's, potato chips, soda and the like, because no
one is around.

I am on a budget, yet I still managed to put together three 55 gal plastic
drums of water, and a few hundred pounds of wheat, beans, powdered milk,
butter powder, white and brown sugar, honey, dry fruit, & vitamins.I
have used salvaged building materials ( most of which didn't cost a thing )
to build a safe room.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:17
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


Howdy Greg, you seem a little hard on those who didn't evacuate.  I can
think a couple reasons to stay put. The evacuation went well for those
with cars, as all roads were open to outgoing traffic.  But what about
those with our a car?  What are they supposed to do, walk to Arkansas?
So for those without vehicles or money to get on a bus, they walk to the
superdome.  Last I heard the roof leaks, toilets aren't working,
gunshots have stopped the evacuation to the Astrodome.  Meanwhile if you
did walk, wade, or swim to the superdome, your home and all your
possessions are left now to not only the elements, but also the looters.

I am not sure what I would of done if in their situation, but I
certainly have sympathy for their dilemma.


Greg and April wrote:
> They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed they
> should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.
>
> Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay in
> their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front
porch
> and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the
reporter
> to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy is
> for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
> trying for a Darwin award.
>
> I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
> refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have
the
> combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter
WY
> is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they want
> more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does ,
> after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.
>
> Greg H.
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "TarynToo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
> SNIP
>
>
>>I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
>>governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
>>government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
>>public works to drain and protect the city.
>>
>>Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
>>generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
>>family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
>>living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
>>Hobson's choice,
>><http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/12/23.html>,
>>can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
>>themselves?"
>>
>>

Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

They are culpable, if they continue their parents mistakes.Indeed they
should have a better grasp of just how bad things are.

Last night on the news, they interviewed a family that elected to stay in
their home, even though the water was almost to the top of their front porch
and an evacuation had been declared.The family kept telling the reporter
to tell the officials to turn on the pumps.In that case my sympathy is
for the kids in that family that couldn't leave because the adults were
trying for a Darwin award.

I have to wonder how many companies would move to New Orleans, if people
refused to move there.There are many places to work that don't have the
combined problems of below sea level living and hurricanes.Wamsutter WY
is paying oil riggers a starting salary of $50,000 a year ( and they want
more ), but, it doesn't have the party atmosphere that New Orleans does ,
after all, the estimated population, in 2003, is less than 1000.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: "TarynToo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:12
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

SNIP

>
> I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
> governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
> government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
> public works to drain and protect the city.
>
> Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
> generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
> family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
> living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
> Hobson's choice,
> ,
> can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
> themselves?"
>
> Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
> that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
> highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
> about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
> house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly
> good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
> than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
> heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
> often floods.
>
> Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
> future in the gulf states,
>
> Taryn
> ornae.com
>
> P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.
>
>
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>


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Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?

[Greg and April]

They do, but, from my understanding, most of the low laying areas are rural.

I don't know of any hurricanes that have hit the Netherlands as well,
Louisiana has a ongoing history of them.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Manzo, Emil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:41
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?


> I think they live below sea-level in the Netherlands too? People have to
> live somewhere. We do the best we can with the tools we have. OK, back
> to finding energy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TarynToo
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 1:12 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Katrina slams New Orleans. Is There Blame?
>
> Hi, Juan and Greg
>
>
> On Aug 31, 2005, at 10:18 AM, Juan Gutierrez wrote:
>
> > People, were there first and form there own local governments before
> > the feds showed up.
> > besides aren't people ultimately responsible for themselves or do you
> > want the feds or corporate bigwigs telling you where you should live.
> > I live in South Florida also where is this High(ish) ground you speak
> > of its all swamps west of Miami.
> >
>
> And Greg wrote:
>
> > I'll disagree with one point, that the government was responsible for
> > all
> > the problems.
> >
> > I believe it's the folks of New Orleans, that started the canals and
> > drainage ditches ( and allowed the city exist to the point that it
> > became an
> > important enough port to cause congress to pass the various act's and
> > laws
> > that accelerated city's sinking to it's present level ), should carry
> > the
> > larger burden of guilt.
>
> I'm sorry if you thought I was speaking only of the feds. When I said
> governments did this or that, I was speaking of all levels of
> government, including the first settlers of Louisiana, who started
> public works to drain and protect the city.
>
> Once a family has lived in the same vulnerable place for a few
> generations, are the grandkids culpable for the parents mistakes? If a
> family moves to Louisiana because that's where they can make a decent
> living and try to improve their circumstances, they're trapped in
> Hobson's choice,
> ,
> can we so blithely say "aren't people ultimately responsible for
> themselves?"
>
> Regarding high ground in SE Florida, The ridge line (such as it is)
> that the Florida East Coast Railroad runs along is generally the
> highest ground south of Orlando. I'm about a kilometer west of it,
> about 3 meters above sea level. The major factors that led me to this
> house were: high ground, sturdy construction, good shutters, and fairly
> good schools. (All Florida schools are sub-par, but these were better
> than most.) Our neighborhood seldom has standing water even in the
> heaviest rains, but only another km west of here, the drained swamp
> often floods.
>
> Bright Blessings on all, and especially to those facing a terrifying
> future in the gulf states,
>
> Taryn
> ornae.com
>
> P.S. Kim, Love your Sig. Just wanted to borrow it once.
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] chicken manure

[Greg and April]

I have no idea, but, some of the ways that Myth Busters test myths, leaves
allot to be desired.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Hayes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:46
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] chicken manure


>
> Didn't mythbusters test that very urban myth last season?
>
> jh
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] chicken manure

[Greg and April]

My dad told the story about one of his collage buddies that got a 3 month
old Cadillac for $50, because the previous owner went out to the desert and
committed suicide in it, and was not found for many days..

He striped the car down to bare metal, sand blasted the entire thing, and
rebuilt it with an all new interior, but, still got rid of the car because
the smell remained.

Good luck.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Todd Hershberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 7:28
Subject: [Biofuel] chicken manure


> I am trying to turn an old chicken house into a biodiesel workshop.
> The odor is disgusting because the chicken waste and dead chickens
> were left for years.  I've cleaned it out and left the doors open.
> Does anyone have any ideas how to deodorize the old chicken shed?
> Should I be concerned about mold or spores?
>
> Thanks,
> Todd
>
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