Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
It's a tragedy these things happen. Everyone who goes into an MRI room should be trained and no unauthorized person should be allowed in. Stacy. At 10:56 PM 11/12/2002 -0700, you wrote: It seems that the incident actually did happen. Here's a typical report that came up when I did a "Fetch" search on "MRI killing" Tom Lawsuit filed in MRI death By MELISSA KLEIN THE JOURNAL NEWS (Original publication: July 4, 2002) WHITE PLAINS The family of a 6-year-old boy killed in an MRI accident at Westchester Medical Center in Valhalla has filed a $20 million lawsuit against the hospital, its medical staff and others involved in the incident, which focused international attention on the potential dangers of MRI procedures. The lawsuit, filed this week in state Supreme Court in White Plains, comes almost a year after Michael Colombini of Croton-on-Hudson was hit in the head by a metal oxygen tank that was yanked by magnetic force into the MRI chamber. He died two days later on July 29. Michael's mother, Barbra Colombini, declined to comment yesterday. "We're looking to get justice for this family that has suffered a terrible and devastating loss," said Matthew Gaier, a partner with the Manhattan law firm Kramer, Dillof, Livingston & Moore, which is representing the Colombinis. The lawsuit names the Westchester County Health Care Corp., the parent entity for the medical center, as well as its affiliated medical school, New York Medical College in Valhalla, and General Electric Corp, which manufactured the MRI machine. The suit also names anesthesiologist Dr. Jian Hou, who was reported to have carried the oxygen tank into the MRI room, as well as a nurse, Mary Nadler, who is said to have given Hou the tank, and two MRI technologists, Patricia Lauria and Paul Daniels, who were operating the machine. Those individuals named in the lawsuit have not previously been publicly identified. Also named were University Imaging and Medical Associates, a doctors' group that had supervised the day-to-day operation of the MRI suite, and Valhalla Anesthesia Associates, the private practice that provides anesthesia services at the hospital. Carin Grossman, a spokeswoman for the medical center, said the hospital would not comment on the lawsuit. "We continue to accept full responsibility for our role in this tragedy, and we cannot discuss the issue any further because it's in litigation," Grossman said. A spokeswoman for New York Medical College also declined to comment, saying the college had not yet received the legal papers. A spokesman for General Electric did not return a call seeking comment. The lawsuit alleges that Michael Colombini was injured because of a "hazardous, unsafe, defective and dangerous condition." Michael, who had just completed kindergarten, had a successful operation at the medical center to remove a benign brain tumor and was undergoing the MRI on July 27, as a follow-up to that treatment. He was sedated for the exam and in the MRI machine when the accident happened. The lawsuit alleges that the hospital failed to properly anesthetize Michael, to monitor his oxygen flow, and to "properly prepare for the MRI procedure and have all necessary and proper oxygen supplies available." General Electric was cited in the lawsuit for failing to place the proper warnings around the machine noting its potential danger and failing to establish and issue appropriate training and safety procedures. According to a state Health Department review of the incident, the anesthesiologist notified an MRI technologist that there was a problem with the piped-in oxygen supply in the MRI room. Two technologists left the machine's control room to remedy the problem, leaving the MRI unsupervised. The anesthesiologist then urgently called out to obtain oxygen, according to the Health Department. What happened next had initially been a matter of dispute. The hospital's internal review of the incident noted that a nurse said she gave the doctor the oxygen tank in a hallway outside the MRI room. The doctor said the nurse brought it into the room. The Health Department, in its report, found that the anesthesiologist brought the tank into the MRI room. Gaier, the family's lawyer, said both the anesthesiologist and the nurse were named in the lawsuit because "one way or another, they were both involved." The Health Department fined the medical center $22,000 for 11 violations relating to the accident, including failing to properly report and investigate a similar MRI incident that had taken place four years earlier. No one was injured in that incident, of which the hospital said it was unaware until after Michael's death. Hou's conduct was reviewed by the state's Office of Professional Medical Conduct, which looks into potential cases of misconduct by doctors. The state Health Department, under state law, does not release information if no action is taken against a doctor. It onl
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
I give up. You have indeed trapped me in a time warp. Just don't mess up the 31st century, where I come from. Jon Spencer wrote: > But how do you know that then is not now? > > Jon > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > Maybe. But that will be then. This is now, and we're to listen to the > counsel > we're given now. > > Jim Cobabe wrote: > > > "One party rule" will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early > > Church leaders. There will be only one party that follows the Lord. > > Everyone else will follow the adversary. Ultimately this is the only > > partisan association that matters. While this may not be the pattern > > for this day, the time is near at hand. > > > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Answer to life
What did you do to pretend to be an amoeba? Split in two? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Stephen Beecroft: > > > Naturally. It involved cutting various simple shapes out of > > construction paper, then deciding which shapes looked > > most like Canada. > > ___ > > Our teachers had us take strips of paper, gave them a half > twist, fasten the ends together, and then color both sides, > pretending all the while to be amoebas, thus bringing both > science and math to new lows. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
In effect we've struck a devil's bargain -- raw materials and geography in turn for huddling under your nuclear umbrella, so your son's actually not far off the mark. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >I don't care whose watch they were codified under -- they're still laws which > >allow for unlawful transfer of property. > > Speaking of unlawful transfer of property, a couple of days ago my son made > an interesting observation. He said that the USA provides a national > defense for Canada and gets Canada to pay for it by abusing trade > regulations. I'm not sure you would agree with the first half of the > statement, but I'm sure you'd agree that the USA finds ways of sucking > Canada dry with lopsided tariffs and such. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described > intellectuals" --Uncle Bob > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
-Tom- > It seems that the incident actually did happen. Here's a typical > report that came up when I did a "Fetch" search on "MRI killing" Guess you're right. Here's another: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/mri010731.html How sad. I know it's old news by now, but still, how tragic. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
It seems that the incident actually did happen. Here's a typical report that came up when I did a "Fetch" search on "MRI killing" Tom Lawsuit filed in MRI death By MELISSA KLEIN THE JOURNAL NEWS (Original publication: July 4, 2002) WHITE PLAINS The family of a 6-year-old boy killed in an MRI accident at Westchester Medical Center in Valhalla has filed a $20 million lawsuit against the hospital, its medical staff and others involved in the incident, which focused international attention on the potential dangers of MRI procedures. The lawsuit, filed this week in state Supreme Court in White Plains, comes almost a year after Michael Colombini of Croton-on-Hudson was hit in the head by a metal oxygen tank that was yanked by magnetic force into the MRI chamber. He died two days later on July 29. Michael's mother, Barbra Colombini, declined to comment yesterday. "We're looking to get justice for this family that has suffered a terrible and devastating loss," said Matthew Gaier, a partner with the Manhattan law firm Kramer, Dillof, Livingston & Moore, which is representing the Colombinis. The lawsuit names the Westchester County Health Care Corp., the parent entity for the medical center, as well as its affiliated medical school, New York Medical College in Valhalla, and General Electric Corp, which manufactured the MRI machine. The suit also names anesthesiologist Dr. Jian Hou, who was reported to have carried the oxygen tank into the MRI room, as well as a nurse, Mary Nadler, who is said to have given Hou the tank, and two MRI technologists, Patricia Lauria and Paul Daniels, who were operating the machine. Those individuals named in the lawsuit have not previously been publicly identified. Also named were University Imaging and Medical Associates, a doctors' group that had supervised the day-to-day operation of the MRI suite, and Valhalla Anesthesia Associates, the private practice that provides anesthesia services at the hospital. Carin Grossman, a spokeswoman for the medical center, said the hospital would not comment on the lawsuit. "We continue to accept full responsibility for our role in this tragedy, and we cannot discuss the issue any further because it's in litigation," Grossman said. A spokeswoman for New York Medical College also declined to comment, saying the college had not yet received the legal papers. A spokesman for General Electric did not return a call seeking comment. The lawsuit alleges that Michael Colombini was injured because of a "hazardous, unsafe, defective and dangerous condition." Michael, who had just completed kindergarten, had a successful operation at the medical center to remove a benign brain tumor and was undergoing the MRI on July 27, as a follow-up to that treatment. He was sedated for the exam and in the MRI machine when the accident happened. The lawsuit alleges that the hospital failed to properly anesthetize Michael, to monitor his oxygen flow, and to "properly prepare for the MRI procedure and have all necessary and proper oxygen supplies available." General Electric was cited in the lawsuit for failing to place the proper warnings around the machine noting its potential danger and failing to establish and issue appropriate training and safety procedures. According to a state Health Department review of the incident, the anesthesiologist notified an MRI technologist that there was a problem with the piped-in oxygen supply in the MRI room. Two technologists left the machine's control room to remedy the problem, leaving the MRI unsupervised. The anesthesiologist then urgently called out to obtain oxygen, according to the Health Department. What happened next had initially been a matter of dispute. The hospital's internal review of the incident noted that a nurse said she gave the doctor the oxygen tank in a hallway outside the MRI room. The doctor said the nurse brought it into the room. The Health Department, in its report, found that the anesthesiologist brought the tank into the MRI room. Gaier, the family's lawyer, said both the anesthesiologist and the nurse were named in the lawsuit because "one way or another, they were both involved." The Health Department fined the medical center $22,000 for 11 violations relating to the accident, including failing to properly report and investigate a similar MRI incident that had taken place four years earlier. No one was injured in that incident, of which the hospital said it was unaware until after Michael's death. Hou's conduct was reviewed by the state's Office of Professional Medical Conduct, which looks into potential cases of misconduct by doctors. The state Health Department, under state law, does not release information if no action is taken against a doctor. It only makes public final disciplinary actions and no such action was on record with the Health Department as of yesterday. Attempts yesterday to reach Hou, who still works at the medical center, were unsuccessful. The medical center
RE: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
Googling on "mri kill boy oxygen" gave a couple of hits that looked like confirmations. The first hit was 404; the second was a safety site (http://www.altair.org/hazard.html) that included this warning under "Magnetic": Ferrous metal objects can pose a danger near high powered magnets, such as a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) unit because the maagnet draws magnetic objects to it. Flying items can hurt and kill, including a young boy who died in 2001 from injuries after a metal oxygen tank was brought into an MRI unit, flew toward the magnet, and struck him in the head. This sounds more likely; someone foolishly wheeled a steel tank into an occupied MRI unit, resulting in tragedy. Not exactly a confirmation of the event out of the realm of urban legend, I realize, but I can believe it. Hope it didn't really happen, though. Stephen Marc A. Schindler wrote: > It couldn't have been a CAT scan, which is just a glorified, spinning > x-ray > machine, basically. I heard it was an MRI. I don't dispute Stephen -- he > sounds > like he knows what he's talking about, but I can't remember any more > than what I > wrote. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Stephen Beecroft: > > > > >-Marc- > > >> ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the > > >> room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked > > >> right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) > > >> instantly. > > > > > Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the > > > last 7-8 years, I find this a bit hard to swallow. > > > > I heard the story pretty much as Marc described it. I didn't > > hear a retraction. Maybe it wasn't an MRI or was a CAT > > scan or something, or maybe the report wasn't accurate, > > but I do remember hearing about it a few months ago on > > the radio and reading about it in the paper. > > > > Larry Jackson > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > > > // > > > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > > / > > > > > > -- > Marc A. Schindler > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland > > Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he > will pick > himself up and continue on Winston Churchill > > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the > author > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors > employer, > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
It couldn't have been a CAT scan, which is just a glorified, spinning x-ray machine, basically. I heard it was an MRI. I don't dispute Stephen -- he sounds like he knows what he's talking about, but I can't remember any more than what I wrote. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Stephen Beecroft: > > >-Marc- > >> ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the > >> room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked > >> right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) > >> instantly. > > > Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the > > last 7-8 years, I find this a bit hard to swallow. > > I heard the story pretty much as Marc described it. I didn't > hear a retraction. Maybe it wasn't an MRI or was a CAT > scan or something, or maybe the report wasn't accurate, > but I do remember hearing about it a few months ago on > the radio and reading about it in the paper. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] a whirlwind trip south
Stephen Beecroft wrote: > > As far as I know, only ferromagnetic materials pose a danger. I don't > think either titanium or silver is ferromagnetic, though I could be > wrong. And as you point out, the techs can mathematically correct for > the presence of metal, which will introduce distortions whether or not > it's ferromagnetic. > That's right, I forgot, but now that you mention it, the techs said that scattering from the metal was a bigger problem than having my chest ripped open. :-) > > Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] War is Hell
At 03:28 PM 11/12/2002 -0700, Marc wrote: You're both right, but are talking about different periods of history. After the Treaty of Westphalia in the 17th century, military battles, which until then had been as Rick characterizes them, took on a more "civilized" manner. It lasted maybe about a century. I was just reading last week about the French activities in Iberia during Wellington's campaigns. This early 19th century stuff was as savage as it gets. There was no such thing as a "non-combatant", and this was from armies with a supposed "Judeo-Christian" foundation. Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Answer to life
Then 9 times 6 equals 46. And that IS the correct answer. Jon Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Gary- > > what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then > > 9 times 6 may NOT equal 42. > > And if he is using Euclidean mathematics? > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
As Rick said, "Hogwash." Macarthur couldn't stand his ground without taking out the bridges. The US gov't, infiltrated as it was (and it was) with traitors, convinced Truman that if this were to occur, the Chinese would be upset and turn nasty. However, Macarthur violated the US Constitution and needed to be replaced. he also cared too much about having Americans needlessly slaughtered, but I guess that was not a good enough justification for his actions. Jon Dan R Allen wrote: > No, he _wasn't_ ordered to "stand down". He was ordered to stand his > ground, and retreat only if necessary. > MacArthur's problem was that he wanted to invade China - regardless of the > cost, and challenged the orders of the Joint Chiefs publicly. The military > doesn't look kindly on that kind of activity - it suggests a lack of unity > and control. The American People are not part of the chain of command. > The problem with MacArthur's plan was that it would all but require the use > of Nukes once we made into China proper. Truman didn't want to be backed > into that corner, so he moved MacArthur out of the way. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Thanks, Rick. Hogwash is a much better term than Barbara Streisand (BS). Jon Rick Mathis wrote: > Hogwash! Traditionally, raping and looting were the means by which the > troops were paid. "War is Hell" did not originate with Sherman. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
I have heard that one of the most profitable times for Dominos in Provo is the 12 am shift on Monday morning. Jon Paul Osborne wrote: > I've snuck out a few times over the years and it makes me feel guilty. > But, when I've gone shopping after midnight (Monday morning) my > conscience is as clear as can be. What do you think of that? I love those > loopholes. ;-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
At 07:25 AM 11/12/2002 -0800, Doug wrote: Yup, us bad old Utah Mormons.. Don't be redundant. Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
Party animal! Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > In my opinion the more parties the better. > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
This veggie thing is an interesting topic. The primary problem with eating less meat is that it takes more time in preparation. My family has found that we feel better and are in general more healthy when we eat less meat. When we start (yet again) on this type of regimen, we do OK for 2 or 3 weeks, and then fall back to our old evil ways! But it is clear to me that when we take the WoW at its exact wording (as interpreted by me, of course :-) we do gain more blessings. This is a good prompting for me - we shall go back to eating less meat. it's also cheaper! I'll let you know when we are translated. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: There's been a lot of discussion about this. My own opinion is that, given speech patterns of the day, the sentence is parsed better with a comma after "used". In other words, it *does* restrict meat to only times of winter or hunger. The phrase "not be used only" is anachronistically late 20th century. Otherwise it appears to be self-contradictory, unless you're living mostly in times of winter and hunger. In any case, I don't think it's a big deal, but it certainly isn't a justification for vegetarianism, as good an idea as vegetarianism may be (but for others, not me!) "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: > >So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: "eat > >meat sparingly and only in the winter" ? > > That is not what it says. It says, "Eat meat sparingly and they should > not be used only in times of winter or hunger." To me that clearly means > that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But > that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Magnetic Personality
Stephen Beecroft: >-Marc- >> ... a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the >> room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked >> right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) >> instantly. > Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the > last 7-8 years, I find this a bit hard to swallow. I heard the story pretty much as Marc described it. I didn't hear a retraction. Maybe it wasn't an MRI or was a CAT scan or something, or maybe the report wasn't accurate, but I do remember hearing about it a few months ago on the radio and reading about it in the paper. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Answer to life
Stephen Beecroft: > Naturally. It involved cutting various simple shapes out of > construction paper, then deciding which shapes looked > most like Canada. ___ Our teachers had us take strips of paper, gave them a half twist, fasten the ends together, and then color both sides, pretending all the while to be amoebas, thus bringing both science and math to new lows. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
So John, are you now saying that we SHOULD be engaged in foreign conflicts? :-) By the way, if you are, in this case I fully agree with you. We would not have the problem we have today had we done so. of course, we might have had WORSE problems. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >Except that the war wasn't being waged under the US Constitution, and as > >Gary has > >pointed out, if the UN had pushed too hard or threatened to use nuclear > >weapons, > >all of Red China would have been down our throats. > > Who cares? At the time, Red China didn't have any power. They couldn't > have fought us without losing gazillions of people. They were fighting > with clubs and pitchforks. We would have toppled Mao's regime, and the > genocide of the Cultural Revolution would never have taken place. By some > estimates, Mao was responsible for the deaths of up to 75 million of his > own people as he systematically went about consolidating his power > according to Marxist doctrine. > > As for the war not being waged under the Constitution, whose fault was > that? Truman's? And I thought you said that the USA runs the UN? I also > thought you said that the UN can't do anything without US consent. If our > membership in the UN mandates that we behave dishonorably and send our > fighting men to their deaths while allowing the enemy sanctuary beyond the > Yalu, the those Americans who got us into the UN ought to be hanged right > along with Truman. > > Some things are unforgivable. And the orders given MacArthur were > treasonable. He was ordered to stand down while the enemy was still > attacking him and killing his men. No wonder he took his appeal to the > American people. He foolishly imagined that they would be too honorable to > let such a travesty occur. > > >"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > > > > > After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: > > > >We can attack individuals for the choices they made through hindsight, or > > > >we can realize that such decisions are complicated. Chaos theory states > > > >that a butterfly flapping its wings today in China can cause storms in > > > >America in two weeks. Do we condemn Truman for limiting the Korean war, > > > >yet then you condemn George W Bush for seeking to extend the war on > > > >terrorism to Iraq? Just where is the consistency? > > > > > > Truman asked MacArthur to lose a war. Truman should have been hanged for > > > high treason against the Constitution. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
We all know the caffeine thing. (Actually, one of the funny little side comments from the movie "Singles Ward" is about how his girlfriend is less than enthusiastic about him because she found a couple of empty Dr. Pepper bottles in his car. Ya gotta see this movie if you haven't!) I clearly didn't mean that it meant that we should be vegetarians (given my signature line). However, I think that the meaning is quite clear, and that we would probably all do better, and receive more blessings, if we followed the WoW a little more closely than we do (myself included). And I do not need to rely on the prophets for something that, as far as I know, they have not commented upon. I believe that it is up to me to understand the best I can. And as far as I can tell, the veggies live the WoW better, on this topic, than does the average member I know (myself included). Jon - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...) I think it means what it says, but the point is that modern-day prophets have defined what the WoW means for us. I'll give you an example. Many people assume it means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or (green/black) tea. That's what it means, not "no caffeine." We tend to get bogged down in unimportant details. But in any case the phrase you quote doesn't mean vegetarianism, as a vegetarian will eat no meat, not just "eat meat sparingly." Jon Spencer wrote: > So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: "eat > meat sparingly and only in the winter" ? > > Jon, soon to be on his way for a quarter pounder with cheese > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > Again, I say, we should follow the commandments of the prophets, and they > have > told us to get involved in politics. I don't see that that implies > necessarily > that we'll get involved at the expense of the Gospel. Quite the opposite, > since > we're doing what we're told to do. It's just like the Word of Wisdom -- some > people take it to extremes, trying to convert others to, say, vegetarianism > on > the supposed basis of the WoW. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
At 08:00 PM 11/12/2002, you wrote: After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with: I was talking about civilized nations here. Internationally, beginning about the 1600's or so, there were several treaties which detailed nations conduct during war. Somewhat similar to the Geneva Convention for example, which proscribes signatories from bombing hospitals and outlines proper procedures for handling the captured (POW's). So how successful have these rules been that attempt to make civilized that which cannot be civilized? --JWR According to President Benson, one of the purposes of the Book of Mormon is so that armies will know how to conduct themselves during war. I can't find the reference right off hand but I remember the statement. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Answer to life
Oh no! Yet another question I have to struggle with! :-) Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: Are you sure? Jon Spencer wrote: > The question is: "What is 9 times 6?" > > Jon > > Gary Smith wrote: > > > Ahh, that's true. But what is the question > > > > > > > > > > >It's kind of like saying that the answer to life, the universe > > > and > > > > >everything is 42. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Modest attire fashion show
My mother-in-law, not a member, saved an article on this from the Charlotte observer and gave it to my wife. We found the manufacturer and have arranged to carry their lines (if we can cough up the cash to fund yet another venture :-). There is a market for this type of dress here in the South from the Baptists. Who knows? This may end up improving their opinion of our church. Jon - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "zion-l" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:23 AM Subject: [ZION] Modest attire fashion show >From this morning's "Social Studies" in the Globe and Mail: Modest attire Last month, a group of Mormon mothers and the Nordstrom department store in Costa Mesa, Calif., presented a "modesty" fashion show for teenage girls. Nordstrom was able to come up with eight formal dress styles and Mormon families helped by enlisting two other designers, reports the Los Angeles Times. "In a hint of pent-up demand and a potential market niche for retailers, 900 free tickets were snapped up shortly after the show was announced . . . Organizers had to turn away other fashion-conservative teens -- including Roman Catholics, Jews, Protestants and Muslims -- whose religion dictates modesty. . . . Fashion experts say Mormons aren't the only families tired of having only provocative choices when shopping for dressy girls' clothes. This miniature cultural counterrevolution could lead retailers to recognize that there's a profitable market . . . in activewear for teens as well." [thanks to Eileen Bell for drawing this to my attention] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on" - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
How? Would they have built 30 million junks and sailed across the oceans? All that we really needed to do was to destroy the bridges and keep them out of commission, and we would have been OK. As always, dictators only threaten when it is to their advantage, and seldom if ever our of pure ideological reasoning. But it doesn't really matter, does it? Macarthur was right in his opinion, and wrong in his disobedience. Jon - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan) Except that the war wasn't being waged under the US Constitution, and as Gary has pointed out, if the UN had pushed too hard or threatened to use nuclear weapons, all of Red China would have been down our throats. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: > >We can attack individuals for the choices they made through hindsight, or > >we can realize that such decisions are complicated. Chaos theory states > >that a butterfly flapping its wings today in China can cause storms in > >America in two weeks. Do we condemn Truman for limiting the Korean war, > >yet then you condemn George W Bush for seeking to extend the war on > >terrorism to Iraq? Just where is the consistency? > > Truman asked MacArthur to lose a war. Truman should have been hanged for > high treason against the Constitution. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on" - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Hmmm. It seems to me that the phrase "should not be used only" from that time period means that they "should not be used EXCEPT." You mileage, as always, may vary. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: > >So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: "eat > >meat sparingly and only in the winter" ? > > That is not what it says. It says, "Eat meat sparingly and they should > not be used only in times of winter or hunger." To me that clearly means > that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But > that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Flying Lessons
Marc Schindler: >> (Is Spruce Grove near Cold Lake?) > Define close. Thanks for the map and info. I didn't realize Spruce Grove was near Edmonton. I don't define that as close in this instance. I spend two weeks at Cold Lake back in the 80s when I was flying on the E-3 AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System). Had a fun little exercise, militarily speaking, and I thoroughly enjoyed my stay there and getting to meet a few of the members. That's also how I knew about the water tower. It was a very funny story, but you would have to be an air traffic controller to really understand it, although I might try to tell it some day if I should happen to feel in top writing form. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
You see what happens when we get a person perfectly fitted to be a prophet, and make him a US President? :-) Jon > > > >Wilford Woodruff divided the nations after WWI, including making a new > >nation called Yugoslavia. > > He did? If so, he must have done so as a resurrected being. ;-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
At 08:00 PM 11/12/2002, you wrote: After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with: I was talking about civilized nations here. Internationally, beginning about the 1600's or so, there were several treaties which detailed nations conduct during war. Somewhat similar to the Geneva Convention for example, which proscribes signatories from bombing hospitals and outlines proper procedures for handling the captured (POW's). So how successful have these rules been that attempt to make civilized that which cannot be civilized? --JWR Not very I have to admit. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.getusout.org";>http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with: I was talking about civilized nations here. Internationally, beginning about the 1600's or so, there were several treaties which detailed nations conduct during war. Somewhat similar to the Geneva Convention for example, which proscribes signatories from bombing hospitals and outlines proper procedures for handling the captured (POW's). So how successful have these rules been that attempt to make civilized that which cannot be civilized? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
But how do you know that then is not now? Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: Maybe. But that will be then. This is now, and we're to listen to the counsel we're given now. Jim Cobabe wrote: > "One party rule" will eventually fulfil the prophetic vision of early > Church leaders. There will be only one party that follows the Lord. > Everyone else will follow the adversary. Ultimately this is the only > partisan association that matters. While this may not be the pattern > for this day, the time is near at hand. > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
At 01:43 PM 11/12/2002, you wrote: At 08:00 PM 11/8/2002 -0700, Steven wrote: Prior to the Civil War noncombatants were traditionally and legally by the laws of nations left alone. The concept of total war (targeting civilians as well as combatants) had its roots in the Civil War (when war would be poured out upon all nations) beginning with General Sherman's march to the sea. Hogwash! Traditionally, raping and looting were the means by which the troops were paid. "War is Hell" did not originate with Sherman. Rick Mathis I was talking about civilized nations here. Internationally, beginning about the 1600's or so, there were several treaties which detailed nations conduct during war. Somewhat similar to the Geneva Convention for example, which proscribes signatories from bombing hospitals and outlines proper procedures for handling the captured (POW's). -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today." --Steven W. Mosher // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
After much pondering, Doug McGee favored us with: I'd be happy to give you a lift from the airport. Hopefully I can talk my wife into riding along and doing dinner with us. If not, perhaps some others will want to do dinner with us. Anyway, count on the ride from the airport to Provo. Doug, would you like to do a temple session with Jim and me before or after dinner? Since Jim lives south and has to pass through Provo anyway, I should probably go with him. But we could meet at the airport for dinner and a temple session or just dinner... whatever. Or we could meet someplace in town. Jim says you and I should make our plans and he'll just fit himself in. Apparently he has the most flexible schedule of us three. Remember when you and I did a session together at the Jordan River temple? Jim was there that time too. I wonder how many years ago that was? I used to have a picture that someone took at that outing, but I don't remember what happened to it. Anyway, I really look forward to seeing you again. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Answer to life
-Marc- > Then the sum of the squaws with the hides is equal to the > squaw of the hippopotamus, of course. I told this joke probably eight years ago on Zion. One member, who shall remain unnamed (you're welcome, Dave), didn't like me messing up the spiritual tenor of the list with silly jokes. So naturally, I've made a great effort ever since to give this list all the solemn dignity it merits. > Sheesh, didn't you take high school geometry? ;-) Naturally. It involved cutting various simple shapes out of construction paper, then deciding which shapes looked most like Canada. This was a challenge for most of us, since we didn't even know which state Canada was in -- plus, those blunt scissors could still damage tender fingers, ears, lips, and tongues if not used with care. Then we were required to write an essay detailing how Canada felt about being compared to a construction paper shape. That essay alone almost wore out my crayon. > (That's called yer Pithergory Theory, according to Charlie > Farquhason) Is that the AustraloPithergory Theory? Any relation to the Piltdown Theory? Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] a whirlwind trip south
-Marc- > Seriously -- did you guys hear about a case back east somewhere, > New York state, iirc, where a tech had inadvertently left an > oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it > got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a > young boy) instantly. Unless MRI technology has changed significantly in the last 7-8 years, I find this a bit hard to swallow. An MRI uses a huge, powerful magnetic field, on the order of 1-2 Tesla. This field is static and "always on". In fact, there is (or at least, there used to be) a big red "Quench" button in the MRI room, used to shut off the magnet. A surefire way to experience a sudden job change was to press the button without sufficient cause. Anyhow, performing the MRI involved introducing relatively small changes to this huge magnetic field (using another coil or coils) at varying frequencies. So "turning on the MRI" should not result in any perceptible change in the magnetic field, which is pretty constant as far as things like keys and oxygen tanks go. Ronn can explain more, and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong. > I didn't think I could have an MRI because my sternum > (breastbone) looks like the inside of a Canadian Tire store > (or Home Depot or whatever your hardware chains are called) > -- it's all wired together with titanium wire. Plus the > sleeve of my heart valve is made out of silver, and the > valve posts are also titanium. The rest is kevlar and > dacron, of all things. But anyway, lotsa metal. As far as I know, only ferromagnetic materials pose a danger. I don't think either titanium or silver is ferromagnetic, though I could be wrong. And as you point out, the techs can mathematically correct for the presence of metal, which will introduce distortions whether or not it's ferromagnetic. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Answer to life
Then the sum of the squaws with the hides is equal to the squaw of the hippopotamus, of course. Sheesh, didn't you take high school geometry? ;-) (That's called yer Pithergory Theory, according to Charlie Farquhason) Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Gary- > > what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then > > 9 times 6 may NOT equal 42. > > And if he is using Euclidean mathematics? > > Stephen > > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I don't care whose watch they were codified under -- they're still laws which allow for unlawful transfer of property. Speaking of unlawful transfer of property, a couple of days ago my son made an interesting observation. He said that the USA provides a national defense for Canada and gets Canada to pay for it by abusing trade regulations. I'm not sure you would agree with the first half of the statement, but I'm sure you'd agree that the USA finds ways of sucking Canada dry with lopsided tariffs and such. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals" --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] China
Anyone who does business in China will soon learn that the military gets the best, just like the old Soviet Union. In fact, generals and other senior officers are allowed now (since 1985) to get involved as partners on joint ventures with foreign firms, which brings in technology (not to mention moolah). Many "private" companies are actually owned, or are consortia of, military officers. Dan R Allen wrote: > Paul: > Actually, the Chinese are not much of a world force even today in my > opinion. Not to offend anyone but their technology is flawed and I'll > tell you right now that they cannot even design a proper light bulb! I've > personally torn down Chinese made light bulbs and have compared them to > American made products. The Chinese don't know how to string a filament > on a par/reflector lamp let alone how far the filament should be from the > reflector disk which should be shiny and not brushed. There electrical > products are inferior and often don't even work on the first try or soon > thereafter. I doubt very much that Chinese made nuclear weapons would hit > their targets let alone make a successful launch. No need to fear the > Chinese. > > Dan: > Most of their military equipment are knock-offs of the Soviet, which while > it isn't nearly as technologically advanced as ours, can be more than a > match if applied numerically; which they can easily do by the way. The main > reason they aren't much of a world power today is because they don't have > the reach that we have; but they are working on it, and have more than > enough manpower to make up for their technological shortfalls. > Their military equipment is also built to a much different quality > requirement than their commercial stuff - just like ours. They do have the > technical know-how to build electronic equipment correctly - they just > don't "waste" it on commercial stuff. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] a whirlwind trip south
Gary Smith wrote: > What, no back bacon > And how about giving our poor Ketchikaner a took, so he can bear those > cold Canadian winters and Marc's liberal kindness? > Who took John's toque? They should give it back. I have a siwash I can lend him. It's bright red with snowflake patterns, so he won't get lost in the snow. > > John, if you schedule it now, you can get scheduled to get an MRI > scheduled in Canada when you pass through Lethbridge of course you'd > have to return 6 months later for the actual MRI... ;-) > Yeah, we're so close to the North Magnetic Pole it takes a mathematician to figure out the results. Seriously -- did you guys hear about a case back east somewhere, New York state, iirc, where a tech had inadvertently left an oxygen cylinder in the room, and when the MRI was turned on, it got sucked right into the core, killing the poor patient (a young boy) instantly. I didn't think I could have an MRI because my sternum (breastbone) looks like the inside of a Canadian Tire store (or Home Depot or whatever your hardware chains are called) -- it's all wired together with titanium wire. Plus the sleeve of my heart valve is made out of silver, and the valve posts are also titanium. The rest is kevlar and dacron, of all things. But anyway, lotsa metal. But I've had about 3 or 4 MRI's now (including something I'd never heard of, called an MRA, where they just look at arteries in the brain), and they said it's not a problem. With today's MRI's apparently you can tone the Gaussian fields down to the point where it won't rip a poor guy's chest apart, and they just keep you in longer, and the math does the rest, in combining the images through interference patterns to build up a proper image. Kewl! I watched Siemens techs install an MRI in Dos Hermanos hospital in downtown Havana once, and it was incredible the huge coils that they were putting in -- in a back room the patient never sees. As I recall, they act as giant capacitors to allow this almighty surge of electricity to go through the metal loop of the MRI when it's turned on. The cables were the size of my arms. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > Mark Gregson: Let me know if you do decide to pass through. I'd be > delighted to meet you. It'll be a little late for barbequed beef but we > can roast some Alberta prime in the oven. > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Truman
Gary Smith wrote: > Man! Talk about a bunch of ravenous wolves we have on this list! Throw > them a bone and they'll have it devoured before it hits the ground. > > Fortunately for all of you, I'm in a good mood. So none of you will be > exiled from the Zion list this week. Instead, I'll expect all of you to > do penance to the BLT when he passes through your areas of the > hemisphere. You'd better start practicing genuflecting and ring kissing > now. > > Oh, and there will be a test > What kind? DNA samples of saliva compared with what you soak off John's ring...? That's some setup ya got there. What if some of us really slobber andoh, never mind. I'm gonna feed him so full of Smarties (real ones) that *he'll* be the one slobbering! -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Answer to life
Only if you're adding angles on Riemann surfaces, and if you know how to do that, you can do your arithmetic any way you want to. I will not stand in the way of a good, sturdy, upright, Reimannian, be he globe-encircling or back in the saddle again (or Romanian, or, heck, Romulan for that matter). Gary Smith wrote: > Jon's using the Pavlovian answer. Anyone could come up with 9 times 6 > whenever the bell rings. I suppose there was mouth foaming issues > involved in it, too. So in other words, it wasn't the perfect question. > You can't have a perfect question if there is any mouth foaming involved. > Also, what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then 9 times > 6 may NOT equal 42. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > Marc: > > Are you sure? > > Jon Spencer wrote: > > > The question is: "What is 9 times 6?" > > > > Jon > > > > Gary Smith wrote: > > > > > Ahh, that's true. But what is the question > > > > > > > > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Answer to life
-Gary- > what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then > 9 times 6 may NOT equal 42. And if he is using Euclidean mathematics? Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Reminds me of a joke whose punchline is, "Well, sir and madam, you see, sometimes the bull wins..." (We call 'em Rocky Mountain oysters around here, but steers don't have them anymore) "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: > >Till would maintain that this is really a typo and that sparringly is what > >is really meant. It's obvious from the view here that we are to wrestle > >with our dinners before we eat them. > > Well, if you'd ever been to a rodeo, you know that wrestling with your meat > is called bull dogging. Of course then the steer has to be butchered > before you eat it. --JWR > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
In one piece. If it's larger, cut it up first. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: > >I don't eat meat with every meal and certainly not every day. What does > >sparingly mean? > > It just means that you should never eat a steak that is over 1.5 lbs. --JWR > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
I don't care whose watch they were codified under -- they're still laws which allow for unlawful transfer of property. Dan R Allen wrote: > "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > > > For instance, to me a "socialist" is anyone who advocates government > > redistribution of the wealth from those who produce wealth to those who > > don't. Using that definition the Democratic party is definitely > controlled > > by socialists. But then using that definition, the Republicans are also > > controlled by socialists. So what's the difference except in rhetoric? > > > > Marc: > Such as laws which allowed the workers of Enron to have their pension funds > robbed > by the big brass > (sorry, I couldn't resist, although I'm sure John would actually agree). > > Dan: > But weren't those laws modified under Clinton's watch? The robberies > certainly were... > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
Well, you'll note how most of his projects end up. "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 12:46 11/12/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: > >This is a concept we're well acquainted with in Canada, where we separate > >the Head > >of State from Head of Government. The Head of State (the husband) is purely > >ceremonial and only really needed in times of crisis ;-) > > You mean Red was giving me bad advice, about the handsome/handy relationship. > > Till the disillusioned > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
You're both right, but are talking about different periods of history. After the Treaty of Westphalia in the 17th century, military battles, which until then had been as Rick characterizes them, took on a more "civilized" manner. It lasted maybe about a century. Rick Mathis wrote: > At 08:00 PM 11/8/2002 -0700, Steven wrote: > >Prior to the Civil War noncombatants were traditionally and legally by the > >laws of nations left alone. The concept of total war (targeting civilians > >as well as combatants) had its roots in the Civil War (when war would be > >poured out upon all nations) beginning with General Sherman's march to the sea. > > Hogwash! Traditionally, raping and looting were the means by which the > troops were paid. "War is Hell" did not originate with Sherman. > > Rick Mathis > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
After much pondering, Tom Matkin favored us with: I've been a little overwhelmed with the volume of chatter today. I've tried, at the least, to read everything on this thread but I can't be sure. So I'll summarize and stand to be corrected if necessary. You have it perfectly, Tom. I am so thrilled that I will get to meet you and your better half. Incidentally, in October-November of 1987 I drove my 1981 Honda Civic from El Paso on the Mexican border to Prince Rupert. I stayed at a motel there in Cardston and went to the temple that evening before leaving for Calgary, Quesnel, and points north the next day. I was so disappointed that I had to drive through all that gorgeous country in the dark. I didn't get to see a thing. I thank you from the most heartfelt depths of my heart for the hospitality you have offered me. I can tell that this trip, which might have been a big chore, is going to turn out to be one of the highlights of my personal history. I am really pumped. Your friend and brother, John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
Thanks for the encouraging word, but you'd be surprised. After my last fall, on Sunday evening, I thought I had landed up against the wall. I was actually on the floor. It was totally dark and I hadn't a clue where I was. Someone had broken one of our cardinal rules here, which is never leave the basement door open, and I had been working in my study early one evening, and was the only one down on that level. I had forgotten that it starts getting dark early here these days, so when I shut off my study light, I couldn't see much. I had to cross through a corner of our family room in front of the basement door to reach the stairs up to the kitchen. I decided to turn around and turn on a light, as all I could see were the external windows that line our family room wall opposite me. Suddenly those windows "up-ended" and that's the only reason I knew I was falling. I thought, "oh well, no problem, the basement door's only a metre away and the worst that could happen is a bruised shoulder and maybe a dent in the door." But as it was open, I cartwheeled down the stairs, putting my head through the gyprock wall across from the bottom of the stairs (it was that wall that I thought I was propped against). Oh well, the day wasn't a loss: My wife and I had earlier visited another ward where our daughter and son-in-law and grand-daughter (and my old boss and his family) live, to watch Shea, who will be 4 in a little less than a month, give her first sacrament talk (coached by her Mom). She was gorgeous, with her hair curled and her finest dress on -- just like a little doll. And goshdarnit, I don't have a prejudiced bone in my body. [yeah, right] :-) "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 12:17 11/12/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: > > another > >aspect of this is that I lose my sense of where I am in space if I don't > >have enough visual or tactile clues, and don't know up from down. Often I > >don't realize I've even fallen until I feel the pain from the blow). > > Ah, my friend, come grovel in the mud with Till. Can't fall far from THAT > perch! > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
After much pondering, Geoff FOWLER favored us with: Will you please post some of the references you used in your family night? I would be interested in reading them. Discourses of Brigham Young, pp. 305-310. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Social Mormons
I have to agree with Marc on his etymology of the terms. BTW, I'm hungry now, so I think I'll go get a Big Mac... In keeping with the Word of Wisdom, of course... ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc:There's been a lot of discussion about this. My own opinion is that, given speech patterns of the day, the sentence is parsed better with a comma after "used". In other words, it *does* restrict meat to only times of winter or hunger. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] one party rule?
And the French used the old guillotine to get at the root of all their issues K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe GS: But the right wing was eliminated over a couple > years, after which the centrists (Garondians) were wiped out, leaving > only the one side to run amok. > Marc: And you probably know the term "radical" did not have the same meaning then as now. It comes from Latin "radix," meaning "root," and meant those who tried to get at the root of a problem. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Answer to life
Jon's using the Pavlovian answer. Anyone could come up with 9 times 6 whenever the bell rings. I suppose there was mouth foaming issues involved in it, too. So in other words, it wasn't the perfect question. You can't have a perfect question if there is any mouth foaming involved. Also, what if the person isn't using Euclidean mathematics? Then 9 times 6 may NOT equal 42. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Are you sure? Jon Spencer wrote: > The question is: "What is 9 times 6?" > > Jon > > Gary Smith wrote: > > > Ahh, that's true. But what is the question > > > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] tornado devastation
I'm fine. The tornado hit a town near the Tennessee border. I'm in the south central area of the state. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe val: Hey Zionisti: Has anyone heard from Gary Smith? The tornados that went through here hit Alabama, and the town hit there was flattened. I think Gary lives very near where it hit there, so I'm just worrying--hopefully needlessly. The tornado that went through Indiana in through Van Wert, Ohio was the worst since 1974--an F4. In that 1974 tornado, we lost five members of the church, from the Ft. Wayne Ward. I was a kid in high school, and four of the five who died were young women, and three of them were in a dance troupe that I was in readying for the dance festival (remember when they used to do those?). All of them were in a van driven by Don Richards, who also died leaving a wife and 5 children--the youngest a newborn. Whenever we have weather like this, I remember that, and Palm Sunday 1965--which heavily damaged the area I live in. I hope Gary is OK, alive AND well. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Truman
Man! Talk about a bunch of ravenous wolves we have on this list! Throw them a bone and they'll have it devoured before it hits the ground. Fortunately for all of you, I'm in a good mood. So none of you will be exiled from the Zion list this week. Instead, I'll expect all of you to do penance to the BLT when he passes through your areas of the hemisphere. You'd better start practicing genuflecting and ring kissing now. Oh, and there will be a test K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: He was probably thinking of Czechoslovakia. Steven Montgomery wrote: > At 08:15 PM 11/11/2002, Gary wrote: > > >Wilford Woodruff divided the nations after WWI, including making a new > >nation called Yugoslavia. > > He did? If so, he must have done so as a resurrected being. ;-) > > -- > Steven Montgomery Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] one party rule?
U, D&C 59? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Jon: By the way, when I get a few minutes, I'll post some thoughts on the Sabbath that come from (1) the only place in the Doctrine and Covenants that the Sabbath is referenced (anyone know where that is?) and (2) the actions of the Pharisees at the time of Christ. (Be care when messin' with a Seminary teacher/supervisor :-) Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] one party rule?
Irwin, Welcome to the list. I hope you'll enjoy your stay. Let me clarify my points for you and everyone else on the list. The Democratic party has evolved tremendously since the days of Thomas Jefferson. He saw a great need for a limited government, in order to keep the federal government from becoming tyrannical. He had reason, as we can see with John Adams' Sedition Acts (actually, they were Alexander Hamilton's). These national laws placed many people in jail, or stole their personal property for speaking out against the government. Jefferson's first act as president was to pardon all people in prison under this act. I'm not saying that the federal government doesn't have a responsibility and a role. The actions taken 40 years ago to sustain and defend the Constitution and its Amendments from corrupted local officials (I've lived in Alabama for 16 years now, so I know George Wallace), was a correct action to take. It ensured the rights of Americans. However, what if a national law was passed that required all people to be right-handed? What would left-handed people do? They couldn't easily move away, as the entire nation is forced to follow the rule. They would be placed in an unfortunate situation they couldn't get away from. This happens today. I don't want to pay for certain things the federal government occasionally demands payment for (drug needles for addicts, women reproductive issues - I can't use the real term because it is against charter, spending millions to save the snail darter, etc). If these things are done on the state level, then I can either put up with it, or leave the state. During the Jim Crow era, blacks did have the choice to move elsewhere to other states. Many did and had a better life for it. What would have happened if the feds, instead of sustaining all black people's rights, were to have said that the Jim Crow laws were constitutional and were to be established on a nation-wide basis? Where would black people have run? We would have essentially placed them back into slavery-perish the thought! But with men like George Wallace, LBJ, Senator Gore, and many others in the South (and elsewhere), it was a distinct possibility that this could have happened. Jefferson understood that tyranny happens, but the worst tyranny happens on the absolute level. No one can escape it, and it is almost impossible to stop it, as it has no opposition on a level large enough to end it. Now, for the Democratic party: there are some awesome people in it. I really like Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, for example. There are some liberals that I respect, whose desire is to help the downtrodden and average American. My parents voted for Hubert Humphrey, whom I also admire. But there are many socialists who are seeking to control the party. This is very clear as you study how the Democratic party has evolved over the past 50 years. JFK asked for tax cuts. Jimmy Carter wanted a responsible government (unfortunately, he wasn't decisive enough, and his wishy washiness hurt the nation). LBJ, however, began a new part of the party in order to socialize it. JFK didn't like LBJ, and didn't trust his motives. The difference is, a liberal wants to use the government in order to improve the lives of people. They don't seek a total governmental force, like one sees in very socialistic nations. Instead, they want their taxes to work wisely, and to only tax what is necessary to make the system work, whether it is 10% or 80% tax. A socialist wants to put everything under the government. They aren't as much interested in helping the people as they are in having a big experimental program they can play with, because they think they are smarter than everyone else. Look at the current government education system. It spends an average of 5-6 thousand dollars per year per student. However, the education most kids get is abysmal. We cannot compete with most other industrial nations, and are last in math and science. Johnny can't read, even though most kids learned to read 50 years ago (and that during a time when schools were segregated-even blacks were learning to read with that "poorer" school system and no lunch program). Instead of using engineering techniques to find effective teaching processes, they've gotten lost in socialistic programs, pushing all kinds of "feel good" education that will not prepare children for the adult life. Sex education has not succeeded in getting kids to use condoms, but has achieved a higher sex lifestyle among teens, for example. Rather than admitting that their program isn't working, they fight harder against efforts that do work (like abstinence training). Why? Because socialists know that if you do not teach people to think for themselves, but only give them enough smarts to get a job, then go home and entertain themselves, then the socialists have a pacified society that will blithely follow them anywhere. This same technique is used in socialist countries: Vietnam, Cub
[ZION] a whirlwind trip south
What, no back bacon And how about giving our poor Ketchikaner a took, so he can bear those cold Canadian winters and Marc's liberal kindness? John, if you schedule it now, you can get scheduled to get an MRI scheduled in Canada when you pass through Lethbridge of course you'd have to return 6 months later for the actual MRI... ;-) K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Mark Gregson: Let me know if you do decide to pass through. I'd be delighted to meet you. It'll be a little late for barbequed beef but we can roast some Alberta prime in the oven. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Truman
Ooops. I meant Woodrow Wilson. Yeah, you know the OTHER president. ;-) Wilford Woodruff was a decent president. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe >Wilford Woodruff divided the nations after WWI, including making a new >nation called Yugoslavia. till: Whoa, I think this must be a typo. 8>)) Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Truman the Villain
After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with: No, he _wasn't_ ordered to "stand down". He was ordered to stand his ground, and retreat only if necessary. MacArthur's problem was that he wanted to invade China - regardless of the cost, and challenged the orders of the Joint Chiefs publicly. The military doesn't look kindly on that kind of activity - it suggests a lack of unity and control. The American People are not part of the chain of command. The problem with MacArthur's plan was that it would all but require the use of Nukes once we made into China proper. Truman didn't want to be backed into that corner, so he moved MacArthur out of the way. I don't know how to say this, but I'll try. In a fight, a combatant must not be allowed sanctuary. If he can attack from sanctuary, there is no way to defeat him. And he is free to kill at his convenience. In war, a general must be allowed to pursue those who retreat to keep them from regrouping. If he isn't allowed to do this, he is being forced to make targets of his men with no recourse. This is what Reagan did in Lebanon and why we lost 277 Marines there in that truck bombing. The factions fighting us could attack at will be we were effectually forbidden to return fire which would have entailed going and getting whoever was shooting at us. Instead our troops were confined to an indefensible position on an airport runway. This is little more than murder of ones own troops. In any case, if Truman wasn't going to let MacArthur win the Korean War even if it meant following Chinese combatants across the Yalu, he should never have sent our troops over there. When China attacked us we were at war with China, weren't we? Well, if China wants to attack us, we must defeat them. What we did was dishonest and a betrayal of our fighting men in the field. Don't we owe something to our fighting men in time of war? Don't we owe them the support to let them win? The military should be subject to civilian leadership, but that leadership needs to be loyal to the troops. If it isn't, then it is a traitor and betrayer. Which just about sums up what I feel about Truman. He betrayed our armed forced, and deserves to be remembered as one of the blackest villains of our national history. MacArthur shouldn't have disobeyed his civilian leaders. He should have resigned his commission. As it was, he humiliated himself and let Truman win the argument. Truman was scum. MacArthur should have quit and then taken his plea to the American people. Not that they would have paid any attention to him. The average voter in this country is a vile as Truman was. They don't care how dishonorably their government acts. They don't even seem to understand that in a democracy we are responsible for the actions of our government. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === When you go in for a job interview, I think a good thing to ask is if they ever press charges. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: Plunder?? Can we read about this in the D&C? Consecration? United Order? Let us take from the riches of John Redelfs and give to poor Paul Osborne! After all, we are all brethren and we should be more equal in wealth. Right? I'll take a bucket of wheat please. Sending you a bucket of wheat would cost more than buying a bucket of wheat. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: Plunder?? Can we read about this in the D&C? Consecration? United Order? Let us take from the riches of John Redelfs and give to poor Paul Osborne! After all, we are all brethren and we should be more equal in wealth. Right? If you need anything, just let me know Paul, and I'll do what I can. Besides, using the power of government to steal from the rich and give to the poor is a bit different from the United Order. The United Order was voluntary, socialism isn't. That is a pretty big difference in my book. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word "puke." But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Oh, I think every herb was put here for mankind's use. I used to date a pharmacist, and she said that one of the first things they learn is that the difference between a "drug" and a "poison" is "context" (meaning dose and condition for which it's being prescribed, etc.). Heck, there's probably even a good purpose for marijuana -- I know Alberta farmers are growing a very low-THC version of it (legally) for use as hemp (it is, in fact, a species of hemp). It's interesting that Bolivian Indians chew coca leaves and it's only a mild stimulant -- it took Western chemistry to distill cocaine out of it and turn it into something truly dangerous. We have a dilemma in Canada with what to do about qat, a leaf that Somalis like to chew. It has both a calming and stimulating effect (I know that sounds contradictory), but it's not specifically mentioned on our "schedule" in the criminal code. Many Somalis import it to chew. But it takes about a baseball-sized wad and about 15 minutes of chewing this apparently very bitter stuff before you get any effect. I think the WoW is a law of obedience, when it boils right down to it, and I could see it changing some day. Perhaps we'll be asked to abstain from something else -- whatever it takes to make us different and set us apart as a peculiar people. Right now it's coffee, among other things, but I'm sure (although not so sure that I'd argue the point with any vigour) that the wine Jesus drank was alcoholic, given the times. And that's no big deal to me. In *our* dispensation we've been told to abstain, and we do. Because we are a peculiar people (no humour intended; I'm quoting straight, and seriously, from Paul). But if it ever changed I sure wouldn't lose my testimony over it. I am not really that tempted by coffee, but for about 18 months when I was a teenager I worked the weekend graveyard shift at a restaurant in a bowling alley right across the street from the Vacaville (CA) federal pen, where Charles Manson is being held. I used to drink tea (no milk, sugar) at night to keep me up. But I was inactive then. When I pulled up my socks, I gave it up and had no trouble doing so. At *very* occasional times, on long distance trips, I've taken caffeine pills to keep me up. Until my illness I was the main long-distance driver in my family (although now the kids are older, and I have some help, but my wife has problems driving for more than a few hundred kms at a stretch. She once fell asleep at the wheel and went off the road. Fortunately it was on a stretch of the Yellowhead between here and the Saskatchewan border with wide, gravelled shoulders and shallow ditches, so I was able to reach over and steer us back onto the highway). At times like that I considered it a drug just like aspirin. Speaking of which, many analgaesics, such as codeine, are administered with caffeine, partly to counteract the somnolent (sleepy) effect, and partly to speed delivery to the brain. Personally I think if I didn't live the WoW I'd try a glass of white wine every now and then. Other than that there's nothing that really holds any interest, let alone serious temptation for me. I've heard that the worst thing to give up is smoking. Janet Brigham Rands, who wrote an article on addiction in the Ensign, and who participates on Eyring-L (where we milked her for more information than she included in the article), says that nicotine is far more addictive than crack or heroin. My Dad gave up smoking when he joined the Church 27 or so years ago, but he says he still gets the occasional mild craving. It passes quickly enough that it's not a problem, but he sympathizes with people trying to quit. Paul Osborne wrote: > Marc wrote: > >Many people assume it > >means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs > that we > >take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink > coffee or > >(green/black) tea. That's what it means, not "no caffeine." We tend to > get bogged > >down in unimportant details. > > You're absolutely right, Marc. I love the smell of coffee and I suppose > it will always be a temptation for me. There is nothing wrong with being > tempted so long as you don't yield to the temptation and partake of the > forbidden substance. I'm hoping that the coffee bean will someday be > pronounced clean. What do you think? Every time I walk down the isle of > the grocery store and smell those flavored beans it puts my nose in a > state of alert. > > What do you suppose the coffee bean is for? Surely it must serve some > sort of purpose other than to tempt the weaker saints like me. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
Re: [ZION] China
I dunno, Paul -- you should see what's happening in areas like Chongqing, the Pearl River Delta (Guangdong-Hong Kong) and Shanghai these days. It would amaze you. I've posted a picture of Shanghai that an LDS friend took during a recent trip there. You can see it at: http://www.geocities.com/marcschindler1/shanghai.jpg I don't have permission to post the name of the person who took this, but it's someone many of you will probably have heard of. Here's a recent article from The Economist on the Pearl River Delta: http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1382626 (I think this is public, but if you get blocked, let me know and I'll post the article). Paul Osborne wrote: > >Who cares? At the time, Red China didn't have any power. They couldn't > > >have fought us without losing gazillions of people. They were fighting > >with clubs and pitchforks > > Actually, the Chinese are not much of a world force even today in my > opinion. Not to offend anyone but their technology is flawed and I'll > tell you right now that they cannot even design a proper light bulb! I've > personally torn down Chinese made light bulbs and have compared them to > American made products. The Chinese don't know how to string a filament > on a par/reflector lamp let alone how far the filament should be from the > reflector disk which should be shiny and not brushed. There electrical > products are inferior and often don't even work on the first try or soon > thereafter. I doubt very much that Chinese made nuclear weapons would hit > their targets let alone make a successful launch. No need to fear the > Chinese. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
I've been a little overwhelmed with the volume of chatter today. I've tried, at the least, to read everything on this thread but I can't be sure. So I'll summarize and stand to be corrected if necessary. My understanding is that JWR is planning to leave Provo on Wednesday November 20, 2002 in the early morning with a view to landing in Cardston in the evening. He will be with his daughter. We will provide a bedroom with a bed for each of them and nourishment as required. (I have a stake presidency meeting scheduled for that evening and will not be available from 6:00 until about 9:00, although I do have some control of the agenda and may be able to shorten the meeting a bit). In the morning we will eat and then go to the Cardston Temple for a session. The first one in the morning requires arrival of about 9:10 a.m.. That would get your out of the temple by shortly after 11:00. If you strike off for Edmonton at that time you will be there around 5 or 6 in the evening. I believe this is the part of your itinerary that concerns me. Let me know if I have it right. I understand that it's tentative at this point. But I can advise that I have already discussed the matter with the mistress of the house and she is delighted with the idea, although her job will not allow her to slack off and go to the temple with us on Thursday morning. I will give you more detailed directions to Cardston off the I-15 in due course and also my toll free long distance telephone number (off list, I guess, there is this thing about Internet security) so you can advise of your progress as you near Cardston. I should just mention that Marc has it a little off in his directions to get to Cardston. It's not at all necessary or desirable to go all the way to Lethbridge or Fort Macleod and then backtrack to Cardston. You can cut over almost directly to Cardston from the US/Canada border and the net effect of coming to Cardston would add less than 15 or 20 minutes to your trip, (except for the 14 or 15 hours you would laze around my house ;->). Tom Cardston, Alberta www.matkin.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
>>> John Redelfs favored us with: >>> >You bet I do. That's called corporate welfare, and is just as disgusting >as any other kind, even more so because the big weenies already sleep in >nice beds and beautiful homes. Brigham Young had some interesting things >to say about the distribution of wealth in a corrupt society. We happened >to go over them last night in our Family Home Evening. John, Will you please post some of the references you used in your family night? I would be interested in reading them. Thanks, Geoff PS - BTW, I love what you quoted in your sig: === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must NOT be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Such as laws which allowed the workers of Enron to have their pension funds robbed by the big brass (sorry, I couldn't resist, although I'm sure John would actually agree). You bet I do. That's called corporate welfare, and is just as disgusting as any other kind, even more so because the big weenies already sleep in nice beds and beautiful homes. Brigham Young had some interesting things to say about the distribution of wealth in a corrupt society. We happened to go over them last night in our Family Home Evening. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must NOT be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
After much pondering, Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: Till would maintain that this is really a typo and that sparringly is what is really meant. It's obvious from the view here that we are to wrestle with our dinners before we eat them. Well, if you'd ever been to a rodeo, you know that wrestling with your meat is called bull dogging. Of course then the steer has to be butchered before you eat it. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] When does the Sabbath end?
After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: I've snuck out a few times over the years and it makes me feel guilty. But, when I've gone shopping after midnight (Monday morning) my conscience is as clear as can be. What do you think of that? I love those loopholes. ;-) If I was a Jew, the Sabbath would be from sundown to sundown. But I'm not a Jew, at least not culturally or religiously. So as soon as the clock strikes midnight, the Sabbath is over. I feel the same way you do, Paul. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals" --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with: I don't eat meat with every meal and certainly not every day. What does sparingly mean? It just means that you should never eat a steak that is over 1.5 lbs. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hypocrisy
Jim wrote >Hypocrisy is a troubling concept for me. I often reflect on the rights >and wrongs of my life, and find that I have generally fallen far short >of the ideals and correct principles I claim to embrace. In short, I am >a hypocrite. I read your letter and appreciate your sentiments. I find that it helps to not think of ourselves as any better than anyone else. It may be true that we are accomplishing all kinds of things and are doing a super job in building the Lord's kingdom, but the bottom line is we are always "unprofitable servant" and are as low as the dust. This kind of thinking will keep our minds balanced so we don't get puffed up and think we are better than others. When we get puffed up in our knowledge or experience it tends to turn us into know-it-alls and it often shows. Be slow to point the finger at another and be quick to acknowledge you owns faults both in private and in public and do the best you can in living the gospel. If you do these things you will never be a hypocrite and humility will come more naturally. Now, I'm not saying I'm the most humble guy around but I don't think I'm any better than any one else. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] China
Paul: Actually, the Chinese are not much of a world force even today in my opinion. Not to offend anyone but their technology is flawed and I'll tell you right now that they cannot even design a proper light bulb! I've personally torn down Chinese made light bulbs and have compared them to American made products. The Chinese don't know how to string a filament on a par/reflector lamp let alone how far the filament should be from the reflector disk which should be shiny and not brushed. There electrical products are inferior and often don't even work on the first try or soon thereafter. I doubt very much that Chinese made nuclear weapons would hit their targets let alone make a successful launch. No need to fear the Chinese. Dan: Most of their military equipment are knock-offs of the Soviet, which while it isn't nearly as technologically advanced as ours, can be more than a match if applied numerically; which they can easily do by the way. The main reason they aren't much of a world power today is because they don't have the reach that we have; but they are working on it, and have more than enough manpower to make up for their technological shortfalls. Their military equipment is also built to a much different quality requirement than their commercial stuff - just like ours. They do have the technical know-how to build electronic equipment correctly - they just don't "waste" it on commercial stuff. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Imad Fayaz Mughniyeh
This is a name you may hear more about in the upcoming days. Here's an
article about him in the National Post, where it alleges he is
supporting a terrorist cell operating in Canada (which would be one of
many actually -- his name is mentioned in Peter Bergen's "Holy War,
Inc." as the Iranian security chief of Hezbollah and the mastermind
behind the truck bombing of the USMC and French Marine barracks in
Lebanon during the civil war there). He's coming back out of the
woodwork, apparently. Incidentally, differences in spelling are due to
different ways of romanizing the man's Farsi name.
http://www.nationalpost.com/national/story.html?id={003F6FAA-BEB0-4224-96E5-10B8CDDE6650}
CSIS has been working with US authorities to try to determine the flow
of funding into so-called charitable organizations which are most
probably fronts for Hezbollah. If this is proven, Hezbollah will
probably be banned in Canada, along with any front groups, under new
anti-terrorism laws we have enacted in parallel with the US.
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org
EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===
Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
John: Who cares? At the time, Red China didn't have any power. They couldn't have fought us without losing gazillions of people. They were fighting with clubs and pitchforks. We would have toppled Mao's regime, and the genocide of the Cultural Revolution would never have taken place. By some estimates, Mao was responsible for the deaths of up to 75 million of his own people as he systematically went about consolidating his power according to Marxist doctrine. Dan: What kind of power are we talking about here? The CCF kicked us backwards twice before the negotiators started talking about splitting Korea. We _might_ have been able to topple Mao, but the cost would have been horrendous. Not as high as the people of China paid, but much higher than we could have afforded. MacArthur recognized their power, and even told the Joint Chiefs that the Chinese could drive them out of Korea if they wanted to. If they did this with only clubs and pitchforks, I would have hated to see what they could have done with MIG's, and Artillery. John: Some things are unforgivable. And the orders given MacArthur were treasonable. He was ordered to stand down while the enemy was still attacking him and killing his men. No wonder he took his appeal to the American people. He foolishly imagined that they would be too honorable to let such a travesty occur. Dan: No, he _wasn't_ ordered to "stand down". He was ordered to stand his ground, and retreat only if necessary. MacArthur's problem was that he wanted to invade China - regardless of the cost, and challenged the orders of the Joint Chiefs publicly. The military doesn't look kindly on that kind of activity - it suggests a lack of unity and control. The American People are not part of the chain of command. The problem with MacArthur's plan was that it would all but require the use of Nukes once we made into China proper. Truman didn't want to be backed into that corner, so he moved MacArthur out of the way. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] China
>Who cares? At the time, Red China didn't have any power. They couldn't >have fought us without losing gazillions of people. They were fighting >with clubs and pitchforks Actually, the Chinese are not much of a world force even today in my opinion. Not to offend anyone but their technology is flawed and I'll tell you right now that they cannot even design a proper light bulb! I've personally torn down Chinese made light bulbs and have compared them to American made products. The Chinese don't know how to string a filament on a par/reflector lamp let alone how far the filament should be from the reflector disk which should be shiny and not brushed. There electrical products are inferior and often don't even work on the first try or soon thereafter. I doubt very much that Chinese made nuclear weapons would hit their targets let alone make a successful launch. No need to fear the Chinese. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Marc wrote: >Many people assume it >means no caffeine, but if that were the case a good portion of OTC drugs that we >take would be verboten. Is decaff okay? No. Clearly we're not to drink coffee or >(green/black) tea. That's what it means, not "no caffeine." We tend to get bogged >down in unimportant details. You're absolutely right, Marc. I love the smell of coffee and I suppose it will always be a temptation for me. There is nothing wrong with being tempted so long as you don't yield to the temptation and partake of the forbidden substance. I'm hoping that the coffee bean will someday be pronounced clean. What do you think? Every time I walk down the isle of the grocery store and smell those flavored beans it puts my nose in a state of alert. What do you suppose the coffee bean is for? Surely it must serve some sort of purpose other than to tempt the weaker saints like me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
JWR said: >I am opposed to the concept of legal plunder which is >using the law to steal from one man and give it to another. And the >Democrats have pretty much built their party on that concept. Plunder?? Can we read about this in the D&C? Consecration? United Order? Let us take from the riches of John Redelfs and give to poor Paul Osborne! After all, we are all brethren and we should be more equal in wealth. Right? I'll take a bucket of wheat please. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
Irwin wrote, "A strong federal government is a must in order to protect the rights of the minority." Paul: I agree, just so long as they don't step on my right while in the process of protecting others. ;-) Dan: A strong federal government is also a must in order to eliminate the rights of all. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > For instance, to me a "socialist" is anyone who advocates government > redistribution of the wealth from those who produce wealth to those who > don't. Using that definition the Democratic party is definitely controlled > by socialists. But then using that definition, the Republicans are also > controlled by socialists. So what's the difference except in rhetoric? > Marc: Such as laws which allowed the workers of Enron to have their pension funds robbed by the big brass (sorry, I couldn't resist, although I'm sure John would actually agree). Dan: But weren't those laws modified under Clinton's watch? The robberies certainly were... // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
At 05:33 AM 11/9/2002 -0700, Steven wrote: Stephen, Perhaps you're right, but I still fail to see how the United States maintained the moral high ground by bombing civilians. I think a "demonstration" about 5 miles offshore might have accomplished the same purpose. This is an excellent question. The rationale at the time was that a "demonstration" of nuclear power would also demonstrate an unwillingness to use that power against people - thus negating its effectiveness. It was obviously a difficult decision either way. I find it hard to support second quessing the men who had to make it without our 50 years of hindsight. Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Modest attire fashion show
Dan: We had a similar effort here. from the AZ republic: ___ So today, Oct. 29 Smith and other Mountain View students are fighting back by presenting petitions with about 1,500 signatures to Dillard's Phoenix division to encourage all retailers to start selling clothing "that covers the midriff, bust, shoulder, back, legs to the knee and any clothing that shows respect for the body." http://www.azcentral.com/ent/style/1029modesty.html ___ I found it was interesting that, in other articles, store owners claimed that they _already_ carried the more modest clothing, but that it didn't sell. The reason seemed to be due to the stores not advertizing the modest clothing; because it isn't "hip" and "fresh", and making it difficult to find should anyone come looking for it. Marc: >From this morning's "Social Studies" in the Globe and Mail: Modest attire Last month, a group of Mormon mothers and the Nordstrom department store in Costa Mesa, Calif., presented a "modesty" fashion show for teenage girls. Nordstrom was able to come up with eight formal dress styles and Mormon families helped by enlisting two other designers, reports the Los Angeles Times. "In a hint of pent-up demand and a potential market niche for retailers, 900 free tickets were snapped up shortly after the show was announced . . . Organizers had to turn away other fashion-conservative teens -- including Roman Catholics, Jews, Protestants and Muslims -- whose religion dictates modesty. . . . Fashion experts say Mormons aren't the only families tired of having only provocative choices when shopping for dressy girls' clothes. This miniature cultural counterrevolution could lead retailers to recognize that there's a profitable market . . . in activewear for teens as well." [thanks to Eileen Bell for drawing this to my attention] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on" ? Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
At 08:00 PM 11/8/2002 -0700, Steven wrote: Prior to the Civil War noncombatants were traditionally and legally by the laws of nations left alone. The concept of total war (targeting civilians as well as combatants) had its roots in the Civil War (when war would be poured out upon all nations) beginning with General Sherman's march to the sea. Hogwash! Traditionally, raping and looting were the means by which the troops were paid. "War is Hell" did not originate with Sherman. Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
At 12:46 11/12/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: This is a concept we're well acquainted with in Canada, where we separate the Head of State from Head of Government. The Head of State (the husband) is purely ceremonial and only really needed in times of crisis ;-) You mean Red was giving me bad advice, about the handsome/handy relationship. Till the disillusioned // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 11:37 11/12/2002 -0800, St Stacy wrote: Then I'm in trouble because I use lots of convenience foods because I have trouble cooking. I guess I'll have to tell the bishop that I'm working on substituting some soy products for meat dishes but I'll need to know where soy TV dinners, etc. exist. Rice and beans.. beans and rice ... nice onion. some olive oil creole seasoning ... a pepper . Till the getting hungrier // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
At 13:23 11/12/2002 -0600, St Paul not Minnesota wrote: I don't eat meat with every meal and certainly not every day. What does sparingly mean? Till would maintain that this is really a typo and that sparringly is what is really meant. It's obvious from the view here that we are to wrestle with our dinners before we eat them. Till the clarifyer // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
>>> Paul wrote: >>> >I've snuck out a few times over the years and it makes me feel guilty. >But, when I've gone shopping after midnight (Monday morning) my >conscience is as clear as can be. What do you think of that? I love those >loopholes. ;-) I don't consider them loopholes at all. When I started working for an "Internet-based" company in early 2000, I was alone responsible for their entire IT operation. There was a time when I worked 6 days a week, and then had to come in by 1:00 AM onMonday mornings to complete my work before my colleagues arrived later that morning. I didn't want to be the one holding things up, and we were growing rapidly. With my wife's "encouragement" I was able to get them to hire a few more people so that I could go back to a normal work week. I believe that I was blessed for not working on Sunday, even though I had to come in pretty early those few Mondays. :). While the company itself inflated and deflated with the rest of the dot-bombs, I was not laid off and left of my own free will only a couple of months ago. Given the number of people who were let go (many of whom were much more qualified than I was), I consider this a tremendous blessing and am very grateful for it. Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
At 12:17 11/12/2002 -0700, M Marc wrote: another aspect of this is that I lose my sense of where I am in space if I don't have enough visual or tactile clues, and don't know up from down. Often I don't realize I've even fallen until I feel the pain from the blow). Ah, my friend, come grovel in the mud with Till. Can't fall far from THAT perch! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
I would refrain from making such comments on the list in case certain persons come on this list that are known between us. I wasn't trying to correct you but only giving my views on the subject for the list. Do I believe everyone should have free health care? Too expensive in my opinion. The disabled should have it insofar as they are able to live in a free society and having liberty. Everyone? No. Stacy. At 12:36 PM 11/12/2002 -0600, you wrote: In a previous post, Stacy Smith wrote, "I think what everyone means by "socialists" are the people informally who believe that the government should pay for health care for everyone regardless of income or social status, not necessarily those that belong to the Communist party or groups thereof. I think this needs to be clarified somewhat. Stacy." Thanks for the clarification. We are not even married yet and I need to be corrected. (grin) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
This is a concept we're well acquainted with in Canada, where we separate the Head of State from Head of Government. The Head of State (the husband) is purely ceremonial and only really needed in times of crisis ;-) "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Irwin Delay favored us with: > >Thanks for the clarification. We are not even married yet and I need to be > >corrected. (grin) > > After you are married, you will get all the correction you need. --JWR > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] A Whirlwind Trip South
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > Is the road from Edmonton to Prince George as good as the road from > Prince George to Prince Rupert? > It's basically freeway* almost half the way (from Hinton to Edmonton -- the last 40% of the way, iow), and good 2-lane highway with shoulders and passing lanes from just west of Hinton to Prince George. Watch the weather in the Yellowhead Pass and the mountain parks -- bridge decks can ice over quickly, but I'm sure you're used to those kinds of conditions from your trips to Whitehorse. Edmonton to Fort Macleod is good freeway all the way -- with 110 kph speed limits except in Calgary city limits, where it's 100 (flow of traffic is usually 120 kph). You pass the Edmonton temple coming from Mark's and my area (via the Whitemud Freeway -- the temple's at the 53rd Avenue interchange on your left -- believe me, you can't miss it), and take Calgary Trail south at Whitemud Crossing. Calgary Trail turns into Highway 2 at the city limits, just north of the international airport. In Calgary Highway 2 becomes Deerfoot Trail, a 6-to-8-lane urban freeway, which takes you all the way through the city. Right now an extension is being built (I'm not sure if it's finished yet) which allows a smooth junction with Macleod Trail, the old Highway 2; last time I was there the Deerfoot ended at Marquis of Lorne Trail (164th Ave SE) and you had to go west a few klicks to connect with Highway 2 and continue on to Fort Macleod, where the divided highway ends. The highway goes through several towns, where you have to slow down: Nanton and Claresholm, in particular. On a clear day this is one of the nicer stretches, with the Rockies off to your right, and flat-as-a-pancake prairies to your left. To get to Cardston, you go through the town of Fort Macleod, and you'll see the turnoff, to the right, for Highway 2 to Cardston (if you keep going straight you'll be in Lethbridge). The only town between Fort Macleod and Cardston is Stand-Off, on the northern border of the Blood Reserve (it's the site of a Hutterite colony), then just occasional houses by the road. Good highway, but tends to be subject to white-outs in blizzard conditions. On a clear day see who spots the temple first -- it is truly the town's landmark, and is kind of an architectural "echo" of Chief Mountain behind it (which is a squarish massif). The Blood Reserve ends at the Cardston town boundary (highway 5 west to Waterton NP/Glacier NP forms the boundary). You'll want to stay to the left, to Main Street. Tom's place is almost all the way through town, over Lee's Creek and up a hill and then to the left -- he can give you more precise directions (he only lives a few doors away from my brother). *but with some level crossings -- watch out for logging, coal and oil rig trucks between Hinton and Edson. This is prime drilling season in the northern muskeg because the ground will be frozen, and the Yellowhead skirts the southern edge of the muskeg in some areas. > > Anyway, I'm still just juggling things in my mind. I'm actually pretty > excited about this new adventure, not to mention having my daughter and her > husband living a little closer. Becky has health problems, and her mother > worries about her being so far away. > > I'm also really glad she is moving to Juneau. If she and Jeff settle > there, when Esperanza retires from the government in about 2 years, we are > more likely to stay here in SE Alaska if Becky is up here. And to tell you > the truth, I have not been looking forward to moving south. I just love it > up here in the north country. The air is clean, and that is important to > me, not so much because it is healthier to breathe, but because it doesn't > muck up my view of the mountains. > > Your friend and brother, > John W. Redelfs, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMA
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
Then I'm in trouble because I use lots of convenience foods because I have trouble cooking. I guess I'll have to tell the bishop that I'm working on substituting some soy products for meat dishes but I'll need to know where soy TV dinners, etc. exist. Stacy. At 11:46 AM 11/12/2002 -0700, you wrote: There's been a lot of discussion about this. My own opinion is that, given speech patterns of the day, the sentence is parsed better with a comma after "used". In other words, it *does* restrict meat to only times of winter or hunger. The phrase "not be used only" is anachronistically late 20th century. Otherwise it appears to be self-contradictory, unless you're living mostly in times of winter and hunger. In any case, I don't think it's a big deal, but it certainly isn't a justification for vegetarianism, as good an idea as vegetarianism may be (but for others, not me!) "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with: > >So exactly what does (paraphrasing from memory) the following mean: "eat > >meat sparingly and only in the winter" ? > > That is not what it says. It says, "Eat meat sparingly and they should > not be used only in times of winter or hunger." To me that clearly means > that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But > that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. > > John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] > = > To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. > I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to > the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad. > --Jack Handy > = > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
Irwin wrote, "A strong federal government is a must in order to protect the rights of the minority." I agree, just so long as they don't step on my right while in the process of protecting others. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
>I've been thinking of becoming a Democrat. I can't see a nickle's worth of >difference between Democrats and Republicans except in their >rhetoric. They both vote the same wrong way on the issues that matter to >me. And since I never vote for the candidate of either party, why not be a >Democrat? Who knows, it might help me get along with Marc. My wife and I are thinking about it too. Maybe we can work to change some of the issues and make it a better party. I'm serious about this. I really don't like politics but maybe there is something I can do to contribute to the cause. Let me know what *you* decide John. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
Well, I had a rather different idea about what kind of parties to have. Lol. Stacy. At 02:18 PM 11/12/2002 -0500, you wrote: At 11:00 11/12/2002 -0800, you wrote: In my opinion the more parties the better. YES!!! the more the merrier. Now who's bringing the cookies? the green jello Till the party animal // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Answer to life
As my linear algebra prof was fond of saying, if you can't think of at least three internally inconsistent yet true statements before breakfast you'll never be a mathematician. Mind you, I don't know if he was including simple arithmetic there. Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Jon- > >>> It's kind of like saying that the answer to life, the universe > >>> and everything is 42. > >> > >> Ahh, that's true. But what is the question > > > > The question is: "What is 9 times 6?" > > And to think some scoff at American ignorance! Let that be a lesson to > you, Marc, on the power and profundity of the American mind. > > Stephen > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
>What I read into Elder Jensen's article is if the Democratic party isn't >what we want it to be, then perhaps if enough of us were to switch over >to it, we could change it for the better. We'd kick the socialists out of >it and into the Green Party (or other socialist party of one's choice), >and create a moderate Democratic party. This sounds like a very good idea to me. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One Party Rule?
>Thinking back, I don't recall the last time I was even at a grocery store or >any other kind of store on a Sunday. I've snuck out a few times over the years and it makes me feel guilty. But, when I've gone shopping after midnight (Monday morning) my conscience is as clear as can be. What do you think of that? I love those loopholes. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "Social" Mormons (was: Liberal dems unveil...)
>That is not what it says. It says, "Eat meat sparingly and they should >not be used only in times of winter or hunger." To me that clearly means >that we should not limit our use of these things to winter or hunger. But >that we are to eat meat sparingly at all times. I don't eat meat with every meal and certainly not every day. What does sparingly mean? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] One party rule?
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > For instance, to me a "socialist" is anyone who advocates government > redistribution of the wealth from those who produce wealth to those who > don't. Using that definition the Democratic party is definitely controlled > by socialists. But then using that definition, the Republicans are also > controlled by socialists. So what's the difference except in rhetoric? > Such as laws which allowed the workers of Enron to have their pension funds robbed by the big brass (sorry, I couldn't resist, although I'm sure John would actually agree). -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Truman (was Taliban in pakistan)
Your point about the UN is well-taken, but that was my point, too -- the US decided to run the war under the auspices of the UN. Perhaps, I don't know, so it wouldn't have to be a so-called "constitutional" war. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >Except that the war wasn't being waged under the US Constitution, and as > >Gary has > >pointed out, if the UN had pushed too hard or threatened to use nuclear > >weapons, > >all of Red China would have been down our throats. > > Who cares? At the time, Red China didn't have any power. They couldn't > have fought us without losing gazillions of people. They were fighting > with clubs and pitchforks. We would have toppled Mao's regime, and the > genocide of the Cultural Revolution would never have taken place. By some > estimates, Mao was responsible for the deaths of up to 75 million of his > own people as he systematically went about consolidating his power > according to Marxist doctrine. > > As for the war not being waged under the Constitution, whose fault was > that? Truman's? And I thought you said that the USA runs the UN? I also > thought you said that the UN can't do anything without US consent. If our > membership in the UN mandates that we behave dishonorably and send our > fighting men to their deaths while allowing the enemy sanctuary beyond the > Yalu, the those Americans who got us into the UN ought to be hanged right > along with Truman. > > Some things are unforgivable. And the orders given MacArthur were > treasonable. He was ordered to stand down while the enemy was still > attacking him and killing his men. No wonder he took his appeal to the > American people. He foolishly imagined that they would be too honorable to > let such a travesty occur. > > >"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > > > > > After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with: > > > >We can attack individuals for the choices they made through hindsight, or > > > >we can realize that such decisions are complicated. Chaos theory states > > > >that a butterfly flapping its wings today in China can cause storms in > > > >America in two weeks. Do we condemn Truman for limiting the Korean war, > > > >yet then you condemn George W Bush for seeking to extend the war on > > > >terrorism to Iraq? Just where is the consistency? > > > > > > Truman asked MacArthur to lose a war. Truman should have been hanged for > > > high treason against the Constitution. --JWR > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
