Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
>That's a nice looking site. do you mind if I link to it from mine? It'll be a >while -- probably a couple of weeks before I update my site, but I'm always >collecting links like this. http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id3.htm Sure, link all you want. I've also been linked to other apologetic sites. There really isn't too much out there from an LDS point of view on the papyrus of Joseph Smith other than, FARMS and Kerry Shirts long articles. I'm offering tender morsels that are easy to chew with a bit of a different perspective. How refreshing! Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 12:48 PM 9/30/2002, you wrote: >At 11:00 AM 9/30/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >Whatever happened to that? Now that you mention it, you don't hear much > about Dr. Skousen these days (at least I don't). > >I've always assumed that his priesthood leaders asked him to "cool it," >since it is inappropriate to have denominations growing within the >Church. And like a good high priest it did what was asked. But then I'm >just speculation. I actually know nothing about the matter. > > >John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here is what little I know: He suffered a heart attack a year or so ago, and I think he turned all of his "involvement" over to his son in law, Glenn Kimber. W. Cleon Skousen was also primarily responsible for setting up and initially running George Wythe College (http://www.georgewythe.com/index2.html) here in Cedar City which is now run by Oliver DeMille. I've read most of W. Cleon Skousen books and have profited thereby although, as is the case with most of Skousen's works, they are not what I consider academic works (Some of them would probably make adequate Junior High or High School level textbooks). To be honest there is quite a following here in Enoch of Dr. Skousen but I'm not among them. I value his works but don't place him on a pedestal as some among here do. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
That's a nice looking site. do you mind if I link to it from mine? It'll be a while -- probably a couple of weeks before I update my site, but I'm always collecting links like this. I've got two websites: The LDS Atlas of the World at www.gatheringofisrael.com, but the one I'd include your link in is www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler which has 4 sections: 1. science and religion 2. scriptural studies 3. apologetics 4. miscellaneous. If you go to the apologetics site and go almost all the way to the bottom you'll see a list of links, and that's where I'd like to include your URL if that's alright with you. Paul Osborne wrote: > On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:41:57 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Oh, I forgot to add. If you're interested in what's happened in the > > 27 years > > since the Joseph Smith Papyri: an Egyptian Endowment was published, > > try > > http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LBOA.pdf a piece of scholarship which > > is, imo, all > > the more remarkable because it was written in two weeks by an > > amateur* (the speed > > pressure was because FAIR wanted to have something to hand out to > > people who came > > to see the anti-Book of Abraham video). Kerry Shirts is working on > > an even more > > technical response but that won't be ready for a few weeks yet. > > > > *I am not using the word "amateur" in the pejorative sense, but in > > the sense of > > someone whose vocation is not in that field, but who has studied > > enough to be > > considered a scholar in the field. As we have no professional > > theologians (and > > don't want any, thank you very much -- they just end up competing > > with legitimate > > priesthood authority like a few BYU religion profs I could name) > > amateur scholars > > is what we're going to get. They're humble enough to submit to > > Church authority > > but committed enough to master their field and give the anti-Mormon > > professionals > > a run for their money. > > Thanks for the URL. You are welcome to check out my URL if you like. I > have spent many years studying the controversies surrounding the mystery > of the Joseph Smith papyri and provide simple, clean, and easy to > understand answers. > > http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id3.htm > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Have you read any of his books? They're very stimulating. I'd recommend his book which is really a collection of his essays which were published in The Improvement Era, the predecessor to The Ensign. It's called "Since Cumorah." Another one which contains similar essays is a three-part book, "Lehi in the Desert / The World of the Jaredites / These were the Jaredites." [am going from memory on that title]. Some of his books, like "Abraham in Egypt," are highly technical and you really have to like that kind of stuff to enjoy some of it (okay, that's a tautology, but you know what I mean). Paul Osborne wrote: > >Is there a Nibley cult following too? > > I honestly have wondered about that. Why is it that so many are wrapped > up in the writings of a college professor? What in the world am I missing > out on? > > > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
In his 90s, but I don't know exactly. He's still working on what will almost certainly be his last book. Paul Osborne wrote: > >Mind you, this could be considered a narrow accomplishment by some, and > if that's > >the case with you, so be it. But that's his contribution, in my opinion. > > Thanks Marc. Although both of my parrents (now retired) went to BYU I > have never had any interest in that scene. The last time I mentioned the > name of Hugh Nibley to my mother, she said, "is he still alive"? > > How old is Dr. Nibley? > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
True, but what can sometimes happen is that even the best of investigators are "young shoots" and can be easily trampled upon, as it were, by exposure to anti-Mormon material. That's where apologetics comes in -- it doesn't replace missionary work, it just enhances it at appropriate times. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > At 08:36 AM 9/30/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >2) He started the trend to look into LDS doctrinal claims which could potentially > >be verified by history, especially by discoveries of writings after Joseph > >Smith's time which authenticate Joseph's claims, particularly in regards to the > >Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. This has given our missionaries > >ammunition to counter anti-Mormons from contaminating investigators. > > Generally, good contacts don't have to be "countered." Rather, the Spirit has been >teaching them, and they believe most of what the missionaries are teaching. I don't >see how countering anti-Mormon claims can actually help a missionary. Do they teach >this "countering" in the mission home, or do they teach that the missionaries are to >avoid arguments over doctrine, and to stick to basics? > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > * > For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against > principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the > darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in > high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) > * > "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
On Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:41:57 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Oh, I forgot to add. If you're interested in what's happened in the > 27 years > since the Joseph Smith Papyri: an Egyptian Endowment was published, > try > http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LBOA.pdf a piece of scholarship which > is, imo, all > the more remarkable because it was written in two weeks by an > amateur* (the speed > pressure was because FAIR wanted to have something to hand out to > people who came > to see the anti-Book of Abraham video). Kerry Shirts is working on > an even more > technical response but that won't be ready for a few weeks yet. > > *I am not using the word "amateur" in the pejorative sense, but in > the sense of > someone whose vocation is not in that field, but who has studied > enough to be > considered a scholar in the field. As we have no professional > theologians (and > don't want any, thank you very much -- they just end up competing > with legitimate > priesthood authority like a few BYU religion profs I could name) > amateur scholars > is what we're going to get. They're humble enough to submit to > Church authority > but committed enough to master their field and give the anti-Mormon > professionals > a run for their money. Thanks for the URL. You are welcome to check out my URL if you like. I have spent many years studying the controversies surrounding the mystery of the Joseph Smith papyri and provide simple, clean, and easy to understand answers. http://www.myegyptology.net/file/id3.htm Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
>Mind you, this could be considered a narrow accomplishment by some, and if that's >the case with you, so be it. But that's his contribution, in my opinion. Thanks Marc. Although both of my parrents (now retired) went to BYU I have never had any interest in that scene. The last time I mentioned the name of Hugh Nibley to my mother, she said, "is he still alive"? How old is Dr. Nibley? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 11:00 AM 9/30/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: >Whatever happened to that? Now that you mention it, you don't hear much about Dr. >Skousen these days (at least I don't). I've always assumed that his priesthood leaders asked him to "cool it," since it is inappropriate to have denominations growing within the Church. And like a good high priest it did what was asked. But then I'm just speculation. I actually know nothing about the matter. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 11:43 AM 9/30/02 -0400 Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: >I'm currently (slowly) reading Approaching Zion. He's quite outspoken and >(hopefully) makes one look into one's own inner life and (possibly) re-evaluate. By all accounts that is probably his best book. I have not read it, but I have read a couple of essays from it. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 08:36 AM 9/30/02 -0600 Marc A. Schindler favored us with: >2) He started the trend to look into LDS doctrinal claims which could potentially >be verified by history, especially by discoveries of writings after Joseph >Smith's time which authenticate Joseph's claims, particularly in regards to the >Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. This has given our missionaries >ammunition to counter anti-Mormons from contaminating investigators. Generally, good contacts don't have to be "countered." Rather, the Spirit has been teaching them, and they believe most of what the missionaries are teaching. I don't see how countering anti-Mormon claims can actually help a missionary. Do they teach this "countering" in the mission home, or do they teach that the missionaries are to avoid arguments over doctrine, and to stick to basics? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
>Is there a Nibley cult following too? I honestly have wondered about that. Why is it that so many are wrapped up in the writings of a college professor? What in the world am I missing out on? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Whatever happened to that? Now that you mention it, you don't hear much about Dr. Skousen these days (at least I don't). "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > At 07:11 AM 9/30/02 -0400 Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: > >I have a deep respect for the insights of Brother Gileadi. Cult, not here, thank >you. I don't agree with all of his interpretations, but he has given me information >that helps me to real all of scripture with a better eye, looking carefully at the >literary techniques that are all over, and for that, I thank him heartily. I'm >reading Nibley right now and gaining a great respect for his insights also. Is >there a Nibley cult following too? > > Yes. And there used to be a W. Cleon Skousen cult following too. --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 07:11 AM 9/30/02 -0400 Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: >I have a deep respect for the insights of Brother Gileadi. Cult, not here, thank >you. I don't agree with all of his interpretations, but he has given me information >that helps me to real all of scripture with a better eye, looking carefully at the >literary techniques that are all over, and for that, I thank him heartily. I'm >reading Nibley right now and gaining a great respect for his insights also. Is >there a Nibley cult following too? Yes. And there used to be a W. Cleon Skousen cult following too. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 08:36 9/30/2002 -0600, M Marc wrote: >Nibley's contribution is twofold, imo: > >1) He has inspired a whole new generation (or two) of scholars, by which I >mean, >at the expense of an oxymoron, "LDS secular" scholars like Truman Madsen, John >Tvedtnes, Dan Peterson, and amateurs like Kevin Barney, Kerry Shirts, Barry >Bickmore, Mike Parker and many more. > >2) He started the trend to look into LDS doctrinal claims which could >potentially >be verified by history, especially by discoveries of writings after Joseph >Smith's time which authenticate Joseph's claims, particularly in regards >to the >Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. This has given our missionaries >ammunition to counter anti-Mormons from contaminating investigators. > >Mind you, this could be considered a narrow accomplishment by some, and if >that's >the case with you, so be it. But that's his contribution, in my opinion. I'm currently (slowly) reading Approaching Zion. He's quite outspoken and (hopefully) makes one look into one's own inner life and (possibly) re-evaluate. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Oh, I forgot to add. If you're interested in what's happened in the 27 years since the Joseph Smith Papyri: an Egyptian Endowment was published, try http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LBOA.pdf a piece of scholarship which is, imo, all the more remarkable because it was written in two weeks by an amateur* (the speed pressure was because FAIR wanted to have something to hand out to people who came to see the anti-Book of Abraham video). Kerry Shirts is working on an even more technical response but that won't be ready for a few weeks yet. *I am not using the word "amateur" in the pejorative sense, but in the sense of someone whose vocation is not in that field, but who has studied enough to be considered a scholar in the field. As we have no professional theologians (and don't want any, thank you very much -- they just end up competing with legitimate priesthood authority like a few BYU religion profs I could name) amateur scholars is what we're going to get. They're humble enough to submit to Church authority but committed enough to master their field and give the anti-Mormon professionals a run for their money. Paul Osborne wrote: > >>Is there a Nibley cult following too? > > Basically, I just stick with the scriptures. I have a boot leg copy of > Nibley's "Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri" and that is it. It is long > and boring and so riddled with references that it would take a hundred > years for me to check them. > > Why is everyone so into Hugh Nibley? I just don't get it. > > Paul O > The odd duck > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Nibley's contribution is twofold, imo: 1) He has inspired a whole new generation (or two) of scholars, by which I mean, at the expense of an oxymoron, "LDS secular" scholars like Truman Madsen, John Tvedtnes, Dan Peterson, and amateurs like Kevin Barney, Kerry Shirts, Barry Bickmore, Mike Parker and many more. 2) He started the trend to look into LDS doctrinal claims which could potentially be verified by history, especially by discoveries of writings after Joseph Smith's time which authenticate Joseph's claims, particularly in regards to the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. This has given our missionaries ammunition to counter anti-Mormons from contaminating investigators. Mind you, this could be considered a narrow accomplishment by some, and if that's the case with you, so be it. But that's his contribution, in my opinion. Paul Osborne wrote: > >>Is there a Nibley cult following too? > > Basically, I just stick with the scriptures. I have a boot leg copy of > Nibley's "Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri" and that is it. It is long > and boring and so riddled with references that it would take a hundred > years for me to check them. > > Why is everyone so into Hugh Nibley? I just don't get it. > > Paul O > The odd duck > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Just out of curiosity, who's Robert K. Smith? I think the value of Gileadi is threefold: 1) he produces an explanation of the redaction of Isaiah which produces a unified Isaiah and therefore confounds the normative secular scholarly assumption that there were 3 Isaiahs; 2) his description of types helps us "liken the words of Isaiah to our day" and get around the confusion that arises when he refers to *contemporary* events; and 3) fwiw it raises our stature in the eyes of non-LDS scholars. His book on the Literary Message of Isaiah got blurbed by none other than David Noel Freedman, co-general editor of the Anchor Bible and one of the world's leading biblical scholars. Where Gileadi got himself into trouble is in trying to identify a Davidic personage in these latter days (something remarkably like what Pratt tries to do, in a way). But I think Gileadi needs to be read in balance with other commentaries. I've been told by several people that one of the best LDS commentaries on Isaiah is Parrys' "Understanding Isaiah," which I decided to order. I'd read some other commentaries and always came away unsatisfied. "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 15:57 9/27/2002 -0800, BLT wrote: > > >Amen! Surprisingly, those who most resemble your characterization are > >members of what I call the online Isaiah cult. They reverence the > >writings of Gileadi and some guy in SLC named Robert K. Smith above the > >teachings of the prophets. > > I have a deep respect for the insights of Brother Gileadi. Cult, not here, > thank you. I don't agree with all of his interpretations, but he has given > me information that helps me to real all of scripture with a better eye, > looking carefully at the literary techniques that are all over, and for > that, I thank him heartily. I'm reading Nibley right now and gaining a > great respect for his insights also. Is there a Nibley cult following too? > > Till > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
>>Is there a Nibley cult following too? Basically, I just stick with the scriptures. I have a boot leg copy of Nibley's "Message of the Joseph Smith Papyri" and that is it. It is long and boring and so riddled with references that it would take a hundred years for me to check them. Why is everyone so into Hugh Nibley? I just don't get it. Paul O The odd duck [EMAIL PROTECTED] GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 15:57 9/27/2002 -0800, BLT wrote: >Amen! Surprisingly, those who most resemble your characterization are >members of what I call the online Isaiah cult. They reverence the >writings of Gileadi and some guy in SLC named Robert K. Smith above the >teachings of the prophets. I have a deep respect for the insights of Brother Gileadi. Cult, not here, thank you. I don't agree with all of his interpretations, but he has given me information that helps me to real all of scripture with a better eye, looking carefully at the literary techniques that are all over, and for that, I thank him heartily. I'm reading Nibley right now and gaining a great respect for his insights also. Is there a Nibley cult following too? Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Unfortunately John Pratt has been published in the Ensign and, fwiw, in Meridian, too. Meridian I don't care about, but the Ensign -- that's a different story. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > At 08:51 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: > >>At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: > >>>At any rate John Pratt is merely building on a foundation first laid by the >Christian Ministers E. W. Bullinger and Joseph A. Seiss. Bullinger's work, "Witness >of the Stars" can be found online at http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/default.htm > >> > >>Why would any Latter-day Saint build upon a foundation of the ministers of an >apostate religion rather than upon the true prophets of the living God? --JWR > > > >Because, to paraphrase Brigham Young, we believe in seeking out and gathering up >truth, all truth, wherever it may be found? > > Absolutely. But we get our religion from the prophets, not self-appointed teachers >of doctrine not taught by the Church. Brigham Young was talking about history, >geography, science, etc. I doubt if he would have approved the rise of personality >cults within the Church. And I am not talking about Pratt. I know nothing of him. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > * > For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against > principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the > darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in > high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) > * > "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark." --Michelangelo Buonarroti Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 08:51 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >>At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >>>At any rate John Pratt is merely building on a foundation first laid by the >Christian Ministers E. W. Bullinger and Joseph A. Seiss. Bullinger's work, "Witness >of the Stars" can be found online at http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/default.htm >> >>Why would any Latter-day Saint build upon a foundation of the ministers of an >apostate religion rather than upon the true prophets of the living God? --JWR > >Because, to paraphrase Brigham Young, we believe in seeking out and gathering up >truth, all truth, wherever it may be found? Absolutely. But we get our religion from the prophets, not self-appointed teachers of doctrine not taught by the Church. Brigham Young was talking about history, geography, science, etc. I doubt if he would have approved the rise of personality cults within the Church. And I am not talking about Pratt. I know nothing of him. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 05:50 PM 9/27/2002, you wrote: >At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: > >At any rate John Pratt is merely building on a foundation first laid by > the Christian Ministers E. W. Bullinger and Joseph A. Seiss. Bullinger's > work, "Witness of the Stars" can be found online at > http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/default.htm > >Why would any Latter-day Saint build upon a foundation of the ministers of >an apostate religion rather than upon the true prophets of the living God? >--JWR Because, to paraphrase Brigham Young, we believe in seeking out and gathering up truth, all truth, wherever it may be found? -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
I'm not a Pratt apologist, but Pratt did not invite only 144 people, that is incorrect. I received an invitation myself, but do to distance and a whole lot of other things going on couldn't attend. Pratt does not have a "following" any more than he does when he invites those interested in astronomy to view the stars. Samuelson is simply incorrect in his assessment. -- Steven Montgomery At 03:15 PM 9/27/2002, you wrote: >A rite is a rite is a rite. He performed a rite, basing it several >things, including the restored gospel. Performance art does not normally >include a rite as such. He doesn't seem to be an artist, rather a student >of the esoteric. There's a huge difference. Inviting only 144 people >does not denote performance art, but a rite. Performance art is something >that makes people interested in experiencing, not so they look upon the >author as a prophetic teacher, which Eric's s-i-l obviously did. I've >studied enough stuff on fallen saints to know an apostate when I smell >him. >If he has a following, it isn't performance art. It is a religious >movement. Especially if he is teaching things which are not a part of the >gospel of Jesus Christ. Using the Enoch calendar and the archangels in >his rite, are not things we normally associate with LDS functions. I >just don't see my bishop coming to me and saying, "Gary, would you set up >the next ward social. Oh, and we want you to have the archangels giving >blessings to the members and we'll do some temple things while we're at >it" >Sorry, don't try to excuse him. If Eric is right, and why should we doubt >his description of the event? Then Pratt is off his LDS rocker. > >K'aya K'ama, >Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www >.geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html >"No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - >Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > >Steven Montgomery: >I'm a fan of the truth, not necessarily John Pratt. Yet, In the spirit of > >Moses 6: 63 I have found much of John Pratt's research to be valid and >based on the truth. I admit that some of John Pratt's research is in the >area of speculation (which he himself will readily admit) and find myself > >putting some of his ideas on "back burners" so to speak. I found Eric >Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected >as >he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange >than >for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt > >is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast > >of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > >/ >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.getusout.org";>http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 02:41 PM 9/27/2002, you wrote: >Mark Gregson wrote: > > > > > I found Eric > > > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected > > > as > > > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange > > > than > > > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John > > > Pratt > > > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the > > > "Feast > > > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > > > > > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on > > > authentic > > > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > > > events of the restoration of the Gospel. > > > > Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would > > anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the > > temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). > > > >I think that Samuelson's gnostic reference is sadly pretty much bang on. > > >I have read a lot of Samuelson's comments on AML over the years, >although I haven't been there for some months now, maybe even a year or >two, but he probably hasn't changed much. He's playwright and a lot >more liberal minded than the typical ZION lister for sure (isn't >everybody?) but he is a prof at BYU and he even writes some of the >"spoken word" commentaries for the MTC broadcasts, so he does know >better ;->. He can be an irreverant satirist at times. Maybe even most >of the time. And he's perceptive. His remark about "Yo HO that I Were >an Angel" was seen by me in that vein, as a comment on the possibility >that the rather contrived first two notes of that song, sliding from oh >up to OH, (is that a full fifth of an octave?) can be quite difficult to >accomplish artfully and if you aren't careful you end up sounding like a >pirate's Yo HO. He may have just spoiled the song for me forever, which >is the ultimate compliment you can pay to a satirist. > >Actually he seemed to be pretty mild about Pratt's performance. Perhaps >in deference to his Sister in Law or whoever it was in his family who >seems to becoming a fellow travellor. But more than likely he just >figured the thing spoke for itself. How do you satirize something >that's already so far over the top? > >I have to confess that my mind was drawn to the wonderful Isaiah passage >about "wizards who peep and mutter" as I read the review. >"To the law and to the prophets" is where we should turn, as we are >sternly reminded by Isaiah, not to people who claim the right to >instruct us in things of God because of special insight. Interestingly >Isaiah says of such people that there "no light in them." I understand >that Pratt has been published in the Ensign and that tells me that he >should know better too. If part of Pratt's ritual caused Samuelson to >become uncomfortable about temple parody then it must have been >amazingly inappropriate. Samuelson would not blush easily. > >The Isaiah reference can be found at 2 Nephi 18: 19-20 > > > I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if > > exposed to this "program". > > > >My ears were ringing. And not with the sound of trumpets! > >Tom Geez, you guys are severe. Pratt is *not* a wizard, peeping and muttering, nor is he claiming any sort of authority from God about special insight. The guy has a Ph'd in astronomy and is a specialist in religious chronology and ancient calendars --hence the emphasis on the ancient Jewish Feast of Trumpets. I think had you actually read some of his articles, although you may not agree with all of his *speculations* (neither do I necessarily), and he is careful to make the distinction, you would be proud to have him as a member of your stake . -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.getusout.org";>http://www.getusout.org/images/guolink.gif";> / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 05:49 PM 9/27/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >No more bizarre than some ward road-shows I've seen . I think you need to cut >this guy some slack--he's a teacher and got a program together with like-minded >individuals--what's wrong with that? Maybe he has a flair for the dramatic, but he is >absolutely *not* preaching false doctrine. Perhaps not yet. You have to be admitted to the inner circles among the 144. Ooo. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 08:41 PM 9/27/02 + Tom Matkin favored us with: >I have to confess that my mind was drawn to the wonderful Isaiah passage >about "wizards who peep and mutter" as I read the review. >"To the law and to the prophets" is where we should turn, as we are >sternly reminded by Isaiah, not to people who claim the right to >instruct us in things of God because of special insight. Amen! Surprisingly, those who most resemble your characterization are members of what I call the online Isaiah cult. They reverence the writings of Gileadi and some guy in SLC named Robert K. Smith above the teachings of the prophets. Of course, Gileadi and Smith have written extensively on the topic of Isaiah claiming a deeper insight into Isaiah than the rest of us have. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 02:34 AM 9/28/02 +0800 Mark Gregson favored us with: >Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would anyone want to >present "information" in that style? (you can't use the temple as a reason because it >is real and authorized). > >I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if exposed to >this "program". I get alarm bells going off whenever I hear anything that would be out of place in a General Conference talk, or the Teachings of the Presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That stuff is weird enough for me. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * "If only they knew the deep and all abiding weirdness that lurks under the surface of much of Mormon culture." --Eric Samuelson, AML List, September 25, 2002 * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >At any rate John Pratt is merely building on a foundation first laid by the Christian >Ministers E. W. Bullinger and Joseph A. Seiss. Bullinger's work, "Witness of the >Stars" can be found online at http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/default.htm Why would any Latter-day Saint build upon a foundation of the ministers of an apostate religion rather than upon the true prophets of the living God? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >I'm a fan of the truth, not necessarily John Pratt. Yet, In the spirit of Moses 6: 63 >I have found much of John Pratt's research to be valid and based on the truth. I >admit that some of John Pratt's research is in the area of speculation (which he >himself will readily admit) and find myself putting some of his ideas on "back >burners" so to speak. I found Eric Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was >probably to be expected as he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no >more strange than for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John >Pratt is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast of >Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: Certainly no more strange than an Endowment session. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 03:24 AM 9/27/02 +0800 Mark Gregson favored us with: >Most of my glimpses of the bizarre subculture have not been while I have been a >bishop. > >I have noticed that the male version of subculture weirdness tends towards the John >Pratt style i.e. esoteric "doctrine" whereas the female version tends towards non-LDS >inspired lunacy (New Age nonsense, usually). Perhaps that's just my limited >experience. This really cracks me up. I've been true and faithful for over 30 years, but I still understand that WE are the weird subculture, not those who need to confess to the bishop. They are probably just being normal. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * "If only they knew the deep and all abiding weirdness that lurks under the surface of much of Mormon culture." --Eric Samuelson, AML List, September 25, 2002 * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 06:25 PM 9/26/02 + Stephen Beecroft favored us with: >I agree, and I think (to quote Homer, the great American philosopher) >it's funny because it's true, or perhaps it's funny because it isn't me. >Except that I suspect that almost all of us really do have an "inner >gnostic", and that we like the idea of having this great, secret >knowledge that helps us understand things better than our benighted >brethren (or maybe just makes us frustrated that they aren't as >perceptive as we are). And imagine a world where we couldn't look down on such people, and ridicule them, and persecute them. "For so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Some people really do have a secret. Usually it is one we are willing to share. But there are rarely and takers. They are like the rich guests who were too busy to come to the feast. So go out into the street and invite the beggars, the halt, the lame, the poor, the hungry. You know, those who can appreciate a feast even if it does seem a little strange. I notice that over the last 15 years virtually every new member that has been a convert baptism in our ward has been from among the poor. Not one prosperous family has come into the Church during that time. That is strange because most of the families in the ward are quite properous. Hmm. Strange. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. (Ephesians 6:12) * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 12:34 PM 9/27/2002, you wrote: > > > I found Eric > > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected as > > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange > than > > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt > > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast > > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on authentic > > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > > events of the restoration of the Gospel. > >Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would >anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the >temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). > >I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if >exposed to this "program". > >= Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = No more bizarre than some ward road-shows I've seen . I think you need to cut this guy some slack--he's a teacher and got a program together with like-minded individuals--what's wrong with that? Maybe he has a flair for the dramatic, but he is absolutely *not* preaching false doctrine. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 01:28 AM 9/27/02 +0800 Mark Gregson favored us with: >I can guarantee that those involved in various subculture weirdness do not pay >attention to the scriptures and the Brethren. They may read and they may listen but >they are deliberately sifting for what they want to hear. What I cannot understand >is how basically good LDS people get into such weirdness. I mean, you compare the >true gospel with something like John Pratt's little ritual and your warning sirens >would just have to start screaming. Nothing could be more weird than the true gospel. It is the ultimate proof that truth is stranger than fiction. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Mark Gregson wrote: > > > I found Eric > > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected > > as > > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange > > than > > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John > > Pratt > > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the > > "Feast > > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on > > authentic > > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > > events of the restoration of the Gospel. > > Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would > anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the > temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). > I think that Samuelson's gnostic reference is sadly pretty much bang on. I have read a lot of Samuelson's comments on AML over the years, although I haven't been there for some months now, maybe even a year or two, but he probably hasn't changed much. He's playwright and a lot more liberal minded than the typical ZION lister for sure (isn't everybody?) but he is a prof at BYU and he even writes some of the "spoken word" commentaries for the MTC broadcasts, so he does know better ;->. He can be an irreverant satirist at times. Maybe even most of the time. And he's perceptive. His remark about "Yo HO that I Were an Angel" was seen by me in that vein, as a comment on the possibility that the rather contrived first two notes of that song, sliding from oh up to OH, (is that a full fifth of an octave?) can be quite difficult to accomplish artfully and if you aren't careful you end up sounding like a pirate's Yo HO. He may have just spoiled the song for me forever, which is the ultimate compliment you can pay to a satirist. Actually he seemed to be pretty mild about Pratt's performance. Perhaps in deference to his Sister in Law or whoever it was in his family who seems to becoming a fellow travellor. But more than likely he just figured the thing spoke for itself. How do you satirize something that's already so far over the top? I have to confess that my mind was drawn to the wonderful Isaiah passage about "wizards who peep and mutter" as I read the review. "To the law and to the prophets" is where we should turn, as we are sternly reminded by Isaiah, not to people who claim the right to instruct us in things of God because of special insight. Interestingly Isaiah says of such people that there "no light in them." I understand that Pratt has been published in the Ensign and that tells me that he should know better too. If part of Pratt's ritual caused Samuelson to become uncomfortable about temple parody then it must have been amazingly inappropriate. Samuelson would not blush easily. The Isaiah reference can be found at 2 Nephi 18: 19-20 > I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if > exposed to this "program". > My ears were ringing. And not with the sound of trumpets! Tom / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
> I found Eric > Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected as > he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange than > for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt > is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast > of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: > > > There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on authentic > Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to > events of the restoration of the Gospel. Any way you slice it, the "program" was bizarre. Why the heck would anyone want to present "information" in that style? (you can't use the temple as a reason because it is real and authorized). I believe that all rational LDS would have warning alarms going off if exposed to this "program". = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
Stephen Beecroft: Oh, that I were a bishop, and could get the inside scoop on all the bizarreness of the Church membership! ___ No need to be a bishop. Just ask them outside of Church. (Preferably not in the parking lot and not during Sunday School.) Act interested and they'll talk your head off. Larry Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 04:26 PM 9/26/2002, you wrote: >At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: > >As you can see, the program was "symbolic" and openly stated that it is > based on his "own interpretation." Beside, I find John Pratt's research > and viewpoint that the stars, planets, constellations and calendar > systems act to bear record of Christ and serve as "signs and seasons" no > more "left field" than that of Abraham suggesting that there are > governing planets and that the Sun "borrows" it light from Kolob . > >This is an amazing admission. Abraham was one of the greatest prophets in >the history of the earth, and he obtained his education of these things by >direct revelation. Can the same be said for John Pratt? > >John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] No. But I see John Pratt's research as an honest attempt at seeking understanding by applying his mind to study and learning (D&C 88: 118). Besides, he must not be too much of a kook if he's been published several times in the Ensign magazine . -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 04:08 PM 9/26/02 -0600 Steven Montgomery favored us with: >As you can see, the program was "symbolic" and openly stated that it is based on his >"own interpretation." Beside, I find John Pratt's research and viewpoint that the >stars, planets, constellations and calendar systems act to bear record of Christ and >serve as "signs and seasons" no more "left field" than that of Abraham suggesting >that there are governing planets and that the Sun "borrows" it light from Kolob >. This is an amazing admission. Abraham was one of the greatest prophets in the history of the earth, and he obtained his education of these things by direct revelation. Can the same be said for John Pratt? John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * "Trying is the first step toward failure." --Homer Simpson * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 01:57 AM 9/26/2002, you wrote: >Interesting post on AML Tuesday, which you can read in the AML archives >at >http://www.xmission.com/pub/lists/aml-list/archive/v01.n839 > >I know that Steven and a couple others are John Pratt fans. I find his >writings to be extreme left-field stuff (except for his puzzles, which >are pretty cool, and remind me of Microsoft interview questions -- >interviewing at Microsoft can actually be a lot of fun). His musings >remind me of the "Jupiter-is-the-terrestrial-kingdom" doctrine I heard >being whispered about in my mission. Now, I don't know Eric Samuelsen or >what his religious/social views are, but we apparently share a viewpoint >on John Pratt. The difference is that his viewpoint is based on direct >experience with a Pratt seance^h^h^h^h^h^h meeting, rather than just >looking through his web site, which is how I formed my opinions. Anyway, >in case anyone cares. > >Stephen I'm a fan of the truth, not necessarily John Pratt. Yet, In the spirit of Moses 6: 63 I have found much of John Pratt's research to be valid and based on the truth. I admit that some of John Pratt's research is in the area of speculation (which he himself will readily admit) and find myself putting some of his ideas on "back burners" so to speak. I found Eric Samuelson's criticism a bit harsh, but this was probably to be expected as he knew little about it going in. I see his program as no more strange than for a backyard gathering of amateur astronomers--which is what John Pratt is. Here is an excerpt from what John Pratt says himself about the "Feast of Trumpets" program in an email message promoting it: There will be a symbolic and instructive program, based partly on authentic Hebrew traditions but mostly on my own interpretation, relating it to events of the restoration of the Gospel. Also, it is tied to the Enoch Calendar, not to the Hebrew calendar, so I don't even hold it on the Hebrew Day (It occurs, however, on the day of the Hebrew Feast of Tabernacles, for no extra charge). The program features the seven angels blowing trumpets to open the Millennium, focusing on the positive aspects. It will include some results of my latest research, including identifying the angels. It is designed for LDS people, but hopefully it will not offend anyone of any religion. There will also be about a half-hour update by me on recent research and implications. (But NO, I will NOT be predicting when the Second Coming will be, so please don't ask!) As you can see, the program was "symbolic" and openly stated that it is based on his "own interpretation." Beside, I find John Pratt's research and viewpoint that the stars, planets, constellations and calendar systems act to bear record of Christ and serve as "signs and seasons" no more "left field" than that of Abraham suggesting that there are governing planets and that the Sun "borrows" it light from Kolob . At any rate John Pratt is merely building on a foundation first laid by the Christian Ministers E. W. Bullinger and Joseph A. Seiss. Bullinger's work, "Witness of the Stars" can be found online at http://philologos.org/__eb-tws/default.htm -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
At 03:24 AM 9/27/02 +0800 Mark Gregson favored us with: >> Oh, that I were a bishop, and could get the inside scoop on all the bizarreness of >the Church membership! On the other hand, maybe not. > >My experience is that most members don't share that sort of thing with the bishop. >Again, being an Edmonton area bishop might be different than a Utah bishop. They share it with federal social workers. And I have heard some totally weird stories. How about the woman who was angry with her brother because he was molesting her young son, and she refused to make a complaint because she didn't want make her mother angry with her. John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED] * "Trying is the first step toward failure." --Homer Simpson * "All my opinions are tentative pending further data." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
"Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >No, it's Saturn that's in the telestial kingdom; its rings are composed of all >tthe lost singlesods d --- Gosh, I hope I don't resemble that remark. ;-) /Sandy/ at Saturn in Spring Hill, Tenn. A Different Kind of Company. A Different Kind of Car. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
> Oh, that I were a bishop, and could get the inside scoop on all the bizarreness of >the Church membership! On the other hand, maybe not. My experience is that most members don't share that sort of thing with the bishop. Again, being an Edmonton area bishop might be different than a Utah bishop. I think that members know that for the most part bishops are no nonsense sorts of fellows who just wouldn't get their brand of nonsense. Most of my glimpses of the bizarre subculture have not been while I have been a bishop. I have noticed that the male version of subculture weirdness tends towards the John Pratt style i.e. esoteric "doctrine" whereas the female version tends towards non-LDS inspired lunacy (New Age nonsense, usually). Perhaps that's just my limited experience. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
-Mark- > >1) Pratt's wife sang 'Yo Ho, that I were an Angel." > > Did she really? Or was it "Oh, that I were an Angel"? She sang it with an eyepatch and a snarl. > >4) Angels came back and pronounced individual blessings on us. > > If this was theatre, okay, I guess. If not, this is definitely > crossing the line. At which point Phanuel wrestles you to the ground and sends you back behind the line. > >we all have a need to feed our inner gnostic. > > Haha! That's hilarious; "feed our inner gnostic." I love it. I agree, and I think (to quote Homer, the great American philosopher) it's funny because it's true, or perhaps it's funny because it isn't me. Except that I suspect that almost all of us really do have an "inner gnostic", and that we like the idea of having this great, secret knowledge that helps us understand things better than our benighted brethren (or maybe just makes us frustrated that they aren't as perceptive as we are). Just a weakness of the flesh, really, but one I'm sure we'll have to overcome, in this life or the next. > > If only they knew the deep and all abiding weirdness that lurks > under the surface of much of Mormon culture. > > Has he ever got that right. I've caught glimpses of it here and > there which makes me suspect that there's a lot more that I don't > know about. After all, I live in Edmonton, not Orem or Salt Lake > City. Oh, that I were a bishop, and could get the inside scoop on all the bizarreness of the Church membership! On the other hand, maybe not. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
>1) Pratt's wife sang 'Yo Ho, that I were an Angel." Did she really? Or was it "Oh, that I were an Angel"? If it was "Yo Ho" then the weirdness is also twisting into mangling songs. >4) Angels came back and pronounced individual blessings on us. If this was theatre, okay, I guess. If not, this is definitely crossing the line. >we all have a need to feed our inner gnostic. Haha! That's hilarious; "feed our inner gnostic." I love it. > If only they knew the deep and all abiding weirdness that lurks under the surface >of much of Mormon culture. Has he ever got that right. I've caught glimpses of it here and there which makes me suspect that there's a lot more that I don't know about. After all, I live in Edmonton, not Orem or Salt Lake City. I can guarantee that those involved in various subculture weirdness do not pay attention to the scriptures and the Brethren. They may read and they may listen but they are deliberately sifting for what they want to hear. What I cannot understand is how basically good LDS people get into such weirdness. I mean, you compare the true gospel with something like John Pratt's little ritual and your warning sirens would just have to start screaming. But LDS are a lot like other people: some are highly skeptical and suspicious and others are unbelievably naive. There's a whole spectrum. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] John Pratt performance art
No, it's Saturn that's in the telestial kingdom; its rings are composed of all tthe lost singlesods d Stephen Beecroft wrote: > Interesting post on AML Tuesday, which you can read in the AML archives > at > http://www.xmission.com/pub/lists/aml-list/archive/v01.n839 > > I know that Steven and a couple others are John Pratt fans. I find his > writings to be extreme left-field stuff (except for his puzzles, which > are pretty cool, and remind me of Microsoft interview questions -- > interviewing at Microsoft can actually be a lot of fun). His musings > remind me of the "Jupiter-is-the-terrestrial-kingdom" doctrine I heard > being whispered about in my mission. Now, I don't know Eric Samuelsen or > what his religious/social views are, but we apparently share a viewpoint > on John Pratt. The difference is that his viewpoint is based on direct > experience with a Pratt seance^h^h^h^h^h^h meeting, rather than just > looking through his web site, which is how I formed my opinions. Anyway, > in case anyone cares. > > Stephen > > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:57:21 -0600 > From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [AML] Feeding Your Inner Gnostic > > I know when the world will end. I know the date of the day of judgment, > the specific moment in which the seventh seal will be opened, leading to > the Second Coming, the binding of Satan, and the Millennium. In fact, > it happened already. Sept 22, 2002 is the day of days, the beginning of > the end. The Enoch Calender makes it clear. I know this, because I was > there, one of the 144 lucky souls who heard, and saw, and partook of the > sublime ritual of the Feast of Trumpets. > > At least, I think so. It's all very confusing. > > Okay, what I'm about to tell you about really happened. I may not have > understood it all; in fact, I'm pretty sure I missed a lot. But I > swear, I'm not making anything up. This post is part theatre review, > though what I saw isn't theatre, and it's part book review, though I > haven't read the book, and it's very large parts cultural study. > > So Friday night, I get a call from my sister-in-law--wife's sister--and > it turns out she has an extra ticket to this thing, because her husband, > my brother-in-law, suddenly can't go, and so, what did I think, did I > wanna go? My wife didn't, but hey, there was a dinner involved, with > carrot cake, followed by a lecture, I was told, on the Enoch Calender, > which I've never heard of. It sounded potentially fun and possibly very > strange, and so I went, met L, my sister-in-law, at this rec center in > Orem. Turns out it was very important that I go, not just because L had > forked out fifteen bucks for the ticket her husband now would not be > able to use, but also because there had to be exactly 144 people at this > thing. They were counting. > > Seems there's this guy, a computer geek/calender expert guy named John > Pratt. Very pleasant, genial fellow, looked maybe 55-60. We're all > there in the room and we're told we're there to participate in the > Hebrew Feast of Trumpets, only the Hebrew Feast of Trumpets was actually > a couple weeks ago, this is the Feast of Trumpets according to the Enoch > calender. This is a calender found in the Book of Enoch, not the > truncated version we get in Moses in the P of GP, but the apocryphal > work Hugh Nibley got us all excited about twenty five years or so ago. > Now, I'm gonna try and explain Pratt's beliefs, but I feel like I'm > describing a movie to you that I actually showed up an hour late for, > and left after watching it for fifteen minutes. Most of the people in > the room (the other 143) have clearly been followers of Pratt for years, > while I've heard one brief presentation, plus spent a couple hours on > his website. > > Basically, the stars form a giant celestial calender. God does things > according to a very specific chronology, which can be ascertained by > carefully watching patterns in the sky. A key to understanding all this > can be found in the Book of Enoch, in the calender described therein. > And the most important dates in the history of the world have all > coincided with holy days in the Enoch calender, usually, I gather, on > the holy day of a holy year. > > There is, of course, a word for the practice of looking at the stars and > figuring out the future. That word is astrology. Pratt acknowledges > this on his website, but points out that ancient practices have their > roots in ancient truths. > > So, based on this stuff, it turns out the First Vision actually took > place on 26 March, 1820, which is nifty because there are weather > records that suggest that was the only nice day in the Spring of that > year. And it also turns out that 22 Sept. 2002 is a big day, the Feast > of Trumpets day in the Year, Feast of Trumpets. Unless I'm going deaf, > or crazy, Pratt said directly that 22 Sept (yesterday, that is) was the > day, der tag, the day the seventh seal was opened, though h
