[Zope-dev] wsgi/paste pipelines in Zope 2 or 3?

2006-09-28 Thread Brad Clements
ve thoughts about it? Thanks (ps, I have something like xslfilter, but using wsgi and libxml2 and also an XSL version of TAL/METAL that I'd like to use in Zope) -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED](315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com AO

Re: [Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-26 Thread Brad Clements
t for other reasons than inactivity... I think this is why the thread has gone on so long. I'm ONLY talking about idle timeout drops, and nothing else. gvibDA and sapdbi make a distinction between idle timeout disconnects and others, since they know when the server has dropped them due to in

Re: [Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-23 Thread Brad Clements
in, I don't see the loss.. -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax http://www.wecanstopspam.org/ AOL-IM: BKClements ___ Zope-Dev mailli

Re: [Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-23 Thread Brad Clements
. This is the way gvibDA works. It reconnects and retries. Where are transactions lost in this scenario? Remember, I'm talking about the DA catching "connectioned timed out" due to idle activity, and no other DB exceptions. -- Brad Clements,

Re: [Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-21 Thread Brad Clements
faults, since I had segfaults within minutes of starting zope with more than 1 thread, way less than the timeout time. > Either that or restructure the DA like I did for ZOracleDA ;-) I want to do that. Hope my client will pay for it ;-) -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[Zope-dev] APE and .svn folders, broke ZMI

2004-07-19 Thread Brad Clements
FSWriteError: Not a legal object name: The above traceback occured, for example, when trying to create a file object called 'xyz'. -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax http://www.wecansto

[Zope-dev] UnpickleableError using SESSION in 2.7.2RC1

2004-07-19 Thread Brad Clements
user=user, # zope user uid=uid,# our internal uid preferences=preferences and None, emailaddress=emailaddress, orgname=orgname, isManager=isManager, isCustomer=isCustomer) SESSION['user_details'] = I It seems like the 'I' object is wrapped somehow. Fro

Re: [Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-19 Thread Brad Clements
On 19 Jul 2004 at 7:44, Chris Withers wrote: > Brad Clements wrote: > >>What's the actual problem you're experiencing? > > > > I have set the SAPDB timeout to 32400 seconds. > > Unless you have an extremely heavily loaded Zope, that's too low, and

Re: [Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-16 Thread Brad Clements
e problem for a > DA. You just need a per-DA instance mutex which you acquire before opening > a connection release afterwards. Someone else said that every thread has it's own copy of ZODB, hence their own copies of each DA. So putting the mutex on the DA won't help this, will it?

Re: [Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-16 Thread Brad Clements
Getting the actual database connection from a DA stinks (ie, it's not really possible). I'd like to see an API extension to ZopeDA's to allow Pythonscripts, Products and external methods get an actual db connection. But that I suppose is a problem to solve later. I think I

[Zope-dev] 2.7 series dropped PASV_FTP_PORTRANGE

2004-07-12 Thread Brad Clements
ay (architecturally) to cleanly get this information into medusa's ftp_server.py module? -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax http://www.wecanstops

Re: [Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-09 Thread Brad Clements
th). This is the deep magic of which my previous note speaks. Where are these details documented (in general terms, not just about DA's), so that I can figure this out without bugging the list too much? -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-10

[Zope-dev] Making a ZSQL.DA fully multi-threaded?

2004-07-09 Thread Brad Clements
here a "Zen Of" document about this somewhere? Thanks -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax http://www.wecanstopspam.org/ AOL-IM: BKClements ___

Re: Zope + Ape + Subversion (was: RE: [Zope-dev] Using a truely revis ion based storage for Zope ?)

2004-04-13 Thread Brad Clements
es via FTP. Maybe that can be done by having pseudo subdirectories named after revisions or branches. So /myFolder/.Prev/index_html would do what you expect (note you can't save to old versions anyway ..) -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkwor

Re: [Zope-dev] DateTime stftime and TAI based timezone is broken or is it?

2003-12-03 Thread Brad Clements
d,h,m,s) vs. DateTime('-MM-DD HH:MM:SS') Why can't Zope just dynamically load the tzfile data as appropriate from the system if it can? -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax http:

Re: [Zope-dev] re: DateTime stftime and TAI based timezone is broken or is it?

2003-12-02 Thread Brad Clements
> On Mon, 2003-12-01 at 16:45, Brad Clements wrote: > > I think adding right/EST5EDT tzfile info to DateTimeZone.py might solve my > > problem. > > > > Can someone email me the .py script used to create the DateTimeZone.py file? > > > > > -- Br

[Zope-dev] re: DateTime stftime and TAI based timezone is broken or is it?

2003-12-01 Thread Brad Clements
I think adding right/EST5EDT tzfile info to DateTimeZone.py might solve my problem. Can someone email me the .py script used to create the DateTimeZone.py file? -- Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812

[Zope-dev] DateTime stftime and TAI based timezone is broken or is it?

2003-12-01 Thread Brad Clements
;>> time.tzname ('EST', 'EDT') >>> time.tzset() >>> time.tzname ('EST', 'EDT') >>> time.timezone 18000 How does time.localtime() know the correct timezone offset, but time.timezone is not correct? >>> time.localtime(); os.sy

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope and interbase

2003-10-30 Thread Brad Clements
and experience the same problem. I think there's a bug in the firebird/interbase gds library that fails under multi-threading conditions. The gvibDA is thunked, but gds still hangs under heavy load. So, we're migrating to SAP DB, which is also much faster than Firebird (at least for our use

Re: [Zope-dev] Versions: should they die?

2003-06-05 Thread Brad Clements
could continue to use ZMI as normal, but run "another zserver" on a different port (the one that feeds the world) with a particular revision. Or I could do this with ZEO. Probably there's too much overhead in this idea. -- Brad Clements,

[Zope-dev] ZEO 2.0 testConnection() takes 30 seconds (MountedStorage)

2002-11-08 Thread Brad Clements
s and 386963 bytes -- 2002-11-08T13:57:57 INFO(0) ZODB Mounted database "{'host':'localhost','port':'4400','storage':'Common',}" at Managers/Common Exception exceptions.AttributeError: "Connection instance has

Re: [Zope-dev] My 2.6.0 feature patch didn't make it!?

2002-10-30 Thread Brad Clements
On 30 Oct 2002 at 11:25, Chris Withers wrote: > Brad Clements wrote: > > http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/Zope2.6/ProposedFeatures > > > > But the passive port range patch didn't make it into 2.6 > > Do you have CVS access? No. I emailed both sets o

[Zope-dev] My 2.6.0 feature patch didn't make it!?

2002-10-29 Thread Brad Clements
t into 2.6 Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax AOL-IM: BKClements ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev **

[Zope-dev] ZClass object - FTP Upload fails

2002-10-01 Thread Brad Clements
mapped to "Change DTML Methods" in the corresponding Product "Define permissions" tab. Though I don't see "Ftp access" as a permission on this zclass under "define permissions" on the class, but it is shown as an inherited permisson. 4. Shoul

Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Passive ftp for zope.

2002-09-24 Thread Brad Clements
PASV ftp support has already been integrated into Zope 2.6 Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax AOL-IM: BKClements ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL

Re: [Zope-dev] Potential Improvements for xml-rpc debugging

2002-08-30 Thread Brad Clements
lot of xml-rpc with IE 5.5 clients, and getting a fault is a pita. I keep modifying xmlrpc.py (each time I update Zope) to print the traceback on the server, but that's a pita. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (3

[Zope-dev] Patch for 525, oops

2002-08-19 Thread Brad Clements
add import types to the modified xmlrpc.py Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax AOL-IM: BKClements ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http

[Zope-dev] Can't followup to bug 525 - Collector problem, DIFF attached

2002-08-19 Thread Brad Clements
lass(t, Unauthorized)): ! return self._real.exception(fatal=fatal,info=info) ! # Create an appropriate Fault object. Unfortunately, we throw away # most of the debugging information. More useful error reporting is # left as an exercise for the reader.

Re: [Zope-dev] passive FTP to Zope with a specified port-range

2002-08-02 Thread Brad Clements
locking more then the privileged ports only. This feature has already been added to Zope 2.6 as a patch. I originally added it to Zope 2.5, so I think you can just copy the 2.6 ftp_server from CVS and drop it into your current Zope to get it to work. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROT

[Zope-dev] Singleton DA possible?

2002-07-17 Thread Brad Clements
e is being called. But that still messes it up. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax AOL-IM: BKClements ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://list

Re: [Zope-dev] AFS authentication with Zope

2002-06-11 Thread Brad Clements
source for AFS? (not possible), 2. or you want Zope to authenticate to an existing AFS domain? (possible) I've done the later, used SWIG to wrap some AFS functions and created a userFolder object to authenticate to AFS. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http

[Zope-dev] How to actually submit contributions for 2.6?

2002-03-29 Thread Brad Clements
I have two pending suggestions on the wiki. I'm ready to submit code/patches. What is the actual mechanism I should use? Just put patches into bug tracker? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax A

Re: [Zope-dev] Trapping Interbase Error Codes

2002-03-09 Thread Brad Clements
.. then you wouldn't need these mods. def getSqlCode(exceptionObject): """Return the sqlcode""" return exceptionObject.getSqlCode() Then when you get an exception, pass the exception object to the external method to get the sqlcode. Brad Clements,

Re: [Zope-dev] Zope 2.6 planning - call for contributors!

2002-02-28 Thread Brad Clements
st submit both of these to patch manager? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL-IM: BKClements ___ Zope

Re: [Zope-dev] Adding gzip compression to HTTPResponse.py

2002-02-06 Thread Brad Clements
n't downstream caching proxies ungzip a response if they get a connection from a client that doesn't support gzip? Or will they only do this if its Transfer-Encoded? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com

Re: [Zope-dev] Adding gzip compression to HTTPResponse.py

2002-02-06 Thread Brad Clements
On 6 Feb 2002 at 10:02, seb bacon wrote: > I don't have much useful to add - I just wanted to mention that I know > there are people out there who have succesfully used mod_gzip with Zope; > and that I *like* the name dogzip :-) "That's my dog, zip!" Brad Cl

[Zope-dev] Adding gzip compression to HTTPResponse.py

2002-02-05 Thread Brad Clements
I'm looking for architectural suggestions for adding gzip compression to HTTPResponse for text types. First, I just wanted to compress xml-rpc output, since I'm returing lots of table data as XML text (not objects), then loading that text/xml into a DOM for XSLT processing. I hacked the attac

[Zope-dev] Exception in XML-RPC handling doesn't rollback?

2002-01-30 Thread Brad Clements
to the regular http publisher. Can anyone suggest where I start looking so I can verify the behaviour I'm seeing and submit a patch? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkwo

Re: [Zope-dev] Fat client thoughts, was: RE: [Zope] Zope + XML-RPC + native GUI

2002-01-22 Thread Brad Clements
I'm working with IBM's Sash http://sash.alphaworks.ibm.com/ Unfortunately the client is programmed in Javascript.. -- I'm also doing a lot of DHTML, XML/XSLT browser based stuff on IE. So-called one- page web applications based on XML-RPC, works nice. Brad Clements,

[Zope-dev] xmlrpc and PyXML, FYI

2001-12-27 Thread Brad Clements
is is with Zope 2.5B3 Should Zope include PyXML components? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL

[Zope-dev] DA connection pooling thoughts

2001-12-12 Thread Brad Clements
p to one for each thread) might be worthwhile.. I remember seeing something on the list about per-thread state information being available somewhere.. an oid jar or something? Anyone have pointers? Thanks Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com

Re: [Zope-dev] more than one user: zope 'hangs'

2001-12-11 Thread Brad Clements
t is serialized. I think the reason for using Thunked was because under Windows, gds is not truly multi-threaded and dies. I do not recall exactly what the story is.. You're welcome to try it without the Thunked Mixin. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000

Re: [Zope-dev] reduce() doesn't work in Python Scripts

2001-12-06 Thread Brad Clements
safelist.append(i) elif not skip_unauthorized: raise Unauthorized, 'unauthorized access to init' for el in seq: if v(seq, seq, None, el): safelist.append(el) elif not skip_unauthorized: raise Unauthorized, 'unauth

Re: [Zope-dev] reduce() doesn't work in Python Scripts

2001-12-06 Thread Brad Clements
this shkould be clear enough as a message. > zope can't find the reduce function. right, but it can find the other built-in functions okay. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils

[Zope-dev] reduce() doesn't work in Python Scripts

2001-12-06 Thread Brad Clements
In Zope 2.4.3 binary on Linux import operator reduce(operator.add,[0,1,2,3,4]) gives me Error Value: global name 'reduce' is not defined Is this a faq? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)26

Re: [Zope-dev] zope-web community (was (SHOUT) NOTIFICATION!!!!)

2001-11-30 Thread Brad Clements
bug tracking. If Bugzilla is too much of a bear to deal with, > there are simpler alternatives available, such as Roundup, Jitterbug, > the SF bug tracker, and our unreleased SPLAT!. SPLAT, sounds interesting, like to see how that stacks up to roundup.. Brad Clemen

[Zope-dev] User folders, access rights, security, collector item 47

2001-11-29 Thread Brad Clements
g if anyone else has been able to reproduce the condition so that we can say for certain if its a bug, or a mis-configuration. Thanks, Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils

[Zope-dev] StructuredText and ZPT nocall() for URL/IMG - suggestion

2001-11-14 Thread Brad Clements
for c in doc.getChildNodes(): getattr(self, self.element_types[c.getNodeName()])(c, level, output) output('') def stx_to_html(src=None,text="", nocall=None,level=1 ): if src and src.meta_type == 'Rendered STX' and not text: text = src.document_

[Zope-dev] ParsedXML in Zclass methods loses permissions on Zope restart

2001-10-29 Thread Brad Clements
pings are stored? Perhaps ZClasses stores the permission mappings, but ParsedXML overrides the restored value somehow? Zope 2.3.3 (binary release, python 1.5.2, linux2-x86) (Using last released beta parsed XML) Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.co

RE: [Zope-dev] SOAP again (or, xml-rpc client for MSIE)

2001-06-05 Thread Brad Clements
x27;ll hesitate to recommend one. > > > > At least one of them is listed on xmlrpc.com. > > > > Having them you could script them via jscript, and basically open up the > > connection easily. > Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268

[Zope-dev] SOAP again (or, xml-rpc client for MSIE)

2001-05-30 Thread Brad Clements
onna take a lot of code to get working. Otherwise, I could use an XML-RPC client for IE5.5, but I can't find one! Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.

[Zope-dev] TAL/ZPT expand-macros on when FTP get?

2001-05-18 Thread Brad Clements
e thrilled. Just a wish for the next release Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL-IM: BKClements _

Re: [Zope-dev] Professional Sites Using Zope??

2001-05-16 Thread Brad Clements
-page-web-app for IE 5.5 that heavily uses ADO and XML to generate a shipping interface. It's a work in progress but I'm really beginning to like XML and XSLT. > ..lots of other 'professional' Zope sites to consider, for example at a > random what do you cal

Re: [Zope-dev] Professional Sites Using Zope??

2001-05-16 Thread Brad Clements
I can't tell you the URL for, its for an importer-exporter handling 600 packages per day (shipping, tracking, customs, etc) His customers (100 or so) and their staff (200 or so) login to track packages every day. It's based on Zope 2.2 (argh) and Interbase on Linux. No

Re: [Zope-dev] Plugable brains changed in 2.3x vs 2.2?

2001-04-23 Thread Brad Clements
On 23 Apr 2001, at 14:45, Brad Clements wrote: > I've been using zope 2.2.2 with a plugable brain that does something like > this: > > > class Mybrain: >def __init__(self): >self.__dict['myvar'] = 'xyzzy' Uh, sorry, this should prob

[Zope-dev] Plugable brains changed in 2.3x vs 2.2?

2001-04-23 Thread Brad Clements
ave a quick pointer for a fix, I have 60 minutes to make this work. thanks Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL-IM: BKClements

Re: [Zope-dev] The field converters (:int, :text, etc.)

2001-02-05 Thread Brad Clements
IE did you test? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL-IM: BKClements ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL

Re: [Zope-dev] The field converters (:int, :text, etc.)

2001-02-05 Thread Brad Clements
to blank out a field, they can't do it. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL-IM: BKClements ___

Re: [Zope-dev] dtml-in batching

2001-01-23 Thread Brad Clements
On 24 Jan 2001, at 11:15, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Brad Clements wrote: > > I posted this same bug AND a patch as bug # 1566 on Aug 28th, 2000. > > > > http://classic.zope.org:8080/Collector/1566/view > > > > Sad to see its *still* pending > > Wel

Re: [Zope-dev] dtml-in batching

2001-01-23 Thread Brad Clements
6 on Aug 28th, 2000. http://classic.zope.org:8080/Collector/1566/view Sad to see its *still* pending Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL-IM: B

Re: [Zope-dev] dtml-in batching

2001-01-22 Thread Brad Clements
except: > - if self.elses: result=render(self.elses, md) > - else: result='' > else: > result = [] > append=result.append > --- 572,577 > > > -- > R

Re: [Zope-dev] RE: objectIds accessiblilty & and a proposal

2000-12-18 Thread Brad Clements
imple enough task to create a Python Script (or > even a DTML Method) that *is* Web accessible to relay > that information if it is needed. > > Thoughts? I think your proposal is the way to go. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.c

[Zope-dev] Converters.py field2date() and :ignore_empty

2000-12-12 Thread Brad Clements
more permanant and "correct" solution. What do others think? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com AOL-IM:

[Zope-dev] Pending bugs in collector - how do I send this patch?

2000-12-11 Thread Brad Clements
del cache[q] del keys[-1] My change is: if int(cache[q][0]) == key: del cache[q] Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting:

[Zope-dev] Adding execute() to Zope DA's for use by External methods

2000-11-14 Thread Brad Clements
tance, it got a "no __call__ method" error. So then I tried passing the connection from dtml, ie but when MyMethod calls db.cursor() it gets a security error. Probably because this function isn't exposed by the security machinery. (same thing probably for the __call__ error) Brad

Re: [Zope-dev] Wrox Book

2000-10-13 Thread Brad Clements
been pulled, I think ;-) Pulled as in cancelled? -Brad p.s. Anyone see my chapter on Embedding/Extending Python in the Wrox Professional Linux Programming book? looking for feedback (kudos, hatemail, etc) Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com

Re: [Zope-dev] Converters.field2date, allow empty string to return None?

2000-09-04 Thread Brad Clements
m and it still does *not* fix the problem of using the test function in an SQL Method. Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812 Fax netmeeting: ils://ils.murkworks.com

[Zope-dev] Converters.field2date, allow empty string to return None?

2000-09-01 Thread Brad Clements
allow an empty string to return None? Or do we need to add an explicit "optional" type? Either way, I'd like to fix this, but what's the best way? Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.murkworks.com (315)268-9812

[Zope-dev] Bug in DT_In.py, still using collector? Here's a patch

2000-08-08 Thread Brad Clements
t-index']=pstart-1 kw['next-sequence-end-index']=pend-1 kw['next-sequence-size']=pend+1-pstart except: if self.elses: result=render(self.elses, md) else: result='&#x

[Zope-dev] Please remove my post to collector about TimeStamp.c typo

2000-06-27 Thread Brad Clements
I just posted a bug about TimeStamp.c having a typo.. My fault, didn't have USE_EXTENSION_CLASS defined. Please ignore as I crawl under a rock (also, couldn't find a better email address to send this to) Brad Clements,[EMAIL PROTECTED] (315)268-1000 http://www.mur