Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Alain Sepeda wrote: Someone in france, Gaspard Koenig support an interesting view on liberalism. > the system should support autonomy, meaning that people should be secure > enough to dare to behave autonomously and not to depend on

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

2016-02-19 18:00 GMT+01:00 H LV : > However, basic > ​income ​ > should be high enough so that paid work does not need to be incentivized > by money. Paid work > Someone in france, Gaspard Koenig support an interesting view on liberalism. the system should support autonomy,

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

H LV wrote: > A similar judgement can be made about slavery: it is bad for the economy > because it is inefficient. > Yes. That was true even in the 19th century, which is one the reasons the U.S. north was wealthier than the south. Coerced labor is inherently

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 3:18 AM, Alain Sepeda wrote: > > > the good way to judge policy is not through morality, but through > incentive network. > > >> A similar judgement can be made about slavery: it is bad for the economy because it is inefficient. The argument sounds

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Alain Sepeda wrote: if you have an income that is not removed if you work and get paid, > whatever it is, then you have no incentive not to work, and much incentive > to work, even for cheap, but never if it is not productive. > That is true, and important. Many wealthy

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

to explain more simply the interest of UNCONDITIONAL basic income. if you have an income that is not removed if you work and get paid, whatever it is, then you have no incentive not to work, and much incentive to work, even for cheap, but never if it is not productive. In this way basic income,

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

​from​ http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/welfare/2016/02/how-i-learnt-stop-worrying-and-love-basic-income ​ How I learnt to stop worrying and love Basic Income John McDonnell's decision to consider moving to the benefit is the right one, says Jonathan Reynolds. ​The ​ first time Basic

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Jed,”.. In the past, education helped because automation and robots usually replaced unskilled labor.” I agree it helped in the past, but currently a degree is mainly used by personnel departments as a measure of your conformity and is little more that what a high school diploma used to

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

2016-02-17 16:35 GMT+01:00 Jed Rothwell : > In the past, education helped because automation and robots usually > replaced unskilled labor. I think for the next few decades they will > continue to replace unskilled labor more quickly than skilled or > intellectual labor.

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Hello Ludwik, No, communism was old already when introduced in Russia (even older in Poland). However, if we stay with that side of the communism that deals with distribution of basic needs it has it points. The problem is that it decides that one group has too little and that that has to be

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

About education -- in a future in which the economic difficulties being discussed are worked out to some extent, there will be a lot of free time. Furthering one's education seems like a good way to spend some of this time. I suspect that education will change significantly in the next 200 years,

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

One advancement is global data "accumulation and application". A demetoligent or radiologist automaton will accumulate a global data base which contains all the images of shin cancer or the x-rays associated with a given condition from all over the world over many decades. an AI will use that

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Ludwik Kowalski wrote: > We believed that in the next economic system, Communism, people will be > receiving goods "according to their needs, not according to their work. > In the distant future, hundreds of years from now, it is certain that things will work out

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

a.ashfield wrote: Please explain why more education will help when there aren't enough jobs. > The estimates I see suggest there will only be one new job for every five > that are lost. > In the past, education helped because automation and robots usually replaced

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Please explain why more education will help when there aren't enough jobs. The estimates I see suggest there will only be one new job for every five that are lost. Yes, I agree and wrote about how robotics is moving up the ladder challenging more skilled jobs. For example a fully automated

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

This thread reminds me of my communist youth (In the USSR and In Poland): http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/life/intro.html We believed that in the next economic system, Communism, people will be receiving goods "according to their needs, not according to their work. Ludwik Kowalski (see

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Jed you say: ​'​ This is either a problem or an opportunity, depending on how you look at it, and how society chooses to respond. ​'​ Of course it is an opportunity. The only way to turn it into a problem is to decide it is a problem. What about this logic: I assume transformation will take its

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

a.ashfield wrote: What I don't see is any agreement of how to handle the inevitable rise in > unemployed. The group-think politician's answer still appears to be "more > education". Yes. Education is a good thing, and I guess it can help with this problem, but it

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Why are men larger than women? Studies were done on primates. A male gorilla is much larger than the female. His testicles are tiny. He beats the computation off. He is monogamous and a polygamist. Male and female chimps are about the same size. Females mate with everyone. Their

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

More education is the answer. People people to go to school. On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 9:46 AM, a.ashfield wrote: > Jed, > While laws have been updated there are still holdouts. Where I live near > Philadelphia all house plumbing had to be made of copper. When a member

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Jed, While laws have been updated there are still holdouts. Where I live near Philadelphia all house plumbing had to be made of copper. When a member of the council died <10 years ago, who happened to own a plumbing business, the building regulations were changed to allow plastic. Our house

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

t; >> But surely they cannot replace Vanna White >> >> >> >> *From:* Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:59 AM >> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com >> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten mill

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Lennart Thornros wrote: What a gang of pessimists! > My views are not pessimistic. I think that a future in which robots do all the work and people do whatever they please would be good, not bad. However, we need to adjust the economic system to allow for this. > Yes,

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

I have showed some of the picture from Western PA. Most recently coal fired generation and govt. defense contractors also seem to be waning. The county and the govt have imposed new taxes to avoid bankruptcy. A sewer project requires an investment of @$10,000 per home. When they are done

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

:01 AM, Russ George <russ.geo...@gmail.com> wrote: > But surely they cannot replace Vanna White > > > > *From:* Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:59 AM > *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com > *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Intelligent ro

RE: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

But surely they cannot replace Vanna White From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 6:59 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs Frank Znidarsic <fznidar...@aol.com <mailto:fznidar...@a

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Frank Znidarsic wrote: The last good paying jobs remain in healthcare. How long will that hold up? Not long. When computers can drive cars better than people, and when they can win at Jeopardy better than the world's experts, it is only a matter of time before they take

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

When I was in the 5th grade our teacher Mrs.Biggs stated that workers in the steel industry fought hard for a 40 hours work week. When we grew up and worked at Bethlehem Steel we would only have to work 30 hours per week. Robots would be doing some of the work for us. It did not turn out

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

The media frames almost every worrying social measure in terms of people, women or children. Rarely do you hear the data just for men or boys. Two generation of journalists have lectured on how to think about society by feminist academia. For example you hear about the glass ceiling but there is

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 10:21 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > H LV wrote: > > You are using the naturalistic fallacy.​ It is like saying that because >> child birth evolved to be risky, we shouldn't intervene with science . . . >> > > I never said anything

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

John Berry wrote: > Still, plenty of extremely dangerous jobs exist for men, I live in a > logging town. > Now that is up there with atlantic fishing in a small boat danger wise. > Okay, so you live there. Do you know any loggers? Have you talked to them, or read

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

John Berry wrote: > Rather the fact that men have continued to be seen as more disposable is > in large part because of the focus of the rights women have, with a > simultaneous subjugation of men. > I see no sign of that in Japan or the U.S. On the contrary, in both

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

John Berry wrote: > The stats do support that men are victims of spousal abuse almost as much > as women: > > http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence > Those stats are an oversimplification, and they not very reliable for many

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

More: http://www.inquisitr.com/1231307/women-rape-men-a-lot-more-than-you-think-study/ And despite what you say, a woman slapping a man is often seen as funny. A man slapping a woman is judged far more harshly. Back to the subject of work. I am not saying that men having the dangerous jobs

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

H LV wrote: You are using the naturalistic fallacy.​ It is like saying that because > child birth evolved to be risky, we shouldn't intervene with science . . . > I never said anything REMOTELY like that! That is absurd. I listed the reasons why some male occupations tend

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

That's pretty rapid growth in Feminism. It is a strange backwards label. The movement has been how women can and should become more masculine. Masculinism could be a movement where guys wear dresses, lippy and put on bra's and have doors opened for them at that rate. Perhaps feminism (or some

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Thank you very much. This is a great collection. On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Patrick Ellul wrote: > > >> You seem to be passionate about this topic. >> I am too. >> Do you know of a collection of links to essays and

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

You are using the naturalistic fallacy.​ It is like saying that because child birth evolved to be risky, we shouldn't intervene with science, but I already said this. harry On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 8:38 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > H LV wrote: > > I

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

John, Recently it occurred to me that Google Ngram could be used gauge societal attitudes about men and women over time. This Google Ngram graphs the usage of the words "feminist", "feminine" and "masculine" from 1700 to 2008 as they are used in English books.

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Axil Axil wrote: > Yet here is the question: Why does it appear that such robots are being > created with masculine traits? And is there any compelling reason to do so? > That's easy. Study the history of technology and you will see the reasons. Automobiles began as

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

H LV wrote: I am not responding until you go back address the argument I made defending > my assertion that it is sexism against men. > I pointed out that related phenomena -- such as body weight and male aggressiveness -- are observed in chimpanzees and other primates. So

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Men also outnumbered women soldiers, warriors, pirates, violent criminals and so on, in all recorded wars and battles, in every culture and era on record. Of course there have been famous women warriors, but not many. We can now formulate are automated warriors as women. While fielding humanoid

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

I am not responding until you go back address the argument I made defending my assertion that it is sexism against men. All you have done is attack my assertion. Harry On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 5:29 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > H LV wrote: > > >> >> >

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

John Berry wrote: The point that I believe Harry and I am making is not that women have > always had safer jobs than men. > > But rather that in modern western feminist society this is the case. > In Europe and the U.S. women have always had safer jobs than men. This has

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe8HxZ6hmLk remote control and automated mining. On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Axil Axil wrote: > Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs > > http://phys.org/news/2016-02-intelligent-robots-threaten-millions-jobs.html > > Advances in

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

The point that I believe Harry and I am making is not that women have always had safer jobs than men. But rather that in modern western feminist society this is the case. There are just as many men battered by women apparently. And did you even know that men being raped by women actually happens

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

On Sun, 2016-02-14 at 20:33 -0500, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I am glad to see people paying attention to this issue. I hope it is > not politicized. Many people feel that that work is a moral issue; > that able-bodied people who do not work should not be given > sustenance. This was a reasonable

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

John Berry wrote: I think if as many women were killed at jobs, especially if it was the same > but reverse of the actual m/f ratio, there would have long ago been a > massive push to make these jobs safer. > There *has been* a massive push to make *all* jobs safer! Read

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

I wrote: > That's silly. Everyone knows that it would be impractical for women to > work on most small fishing boats. > Not quite true. Women can work on fishing boats with mostly women crews. You see them in Japan. Such as:

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

I think if as many women were killed at jobs, especially if it was the same but reverse of the actual m/f ratio, there would have long ago been a massive push to make these jobs safer. On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Eric Walker wrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 3:23

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Eric Walker wrote: If the experiments go well, I would not mind if a number of present-day > welfare programs, such as food stamps and workers' comp, were gradually > consolidated into it. > That should have been "unemployment

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

H LV wrote: > > I do not think this has anything to do with a bias against men. It is a >> bias against women working in certain industries. >> > > ​You have provided the usual feminist opinion and ignored my argument. > That's silly. Everyone knows that it would be

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > H LV wrote: > > >> ​This seems like an appropriate moment to bring up an important and >> neglected men's issue. In the US, men comprise 93% of workplace deaths. >> > > I do not think this has

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Patrick Ellul wrote: > You seem to be passionate about this topic. > I am too. > Do you know of a collection of links to essays and studies regarding it? > I am a big fan of the Martin Ford, who is a Leading Expert on this subject. See:

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Eric, Many wise words. I agree with a slow implementation but I thing before any implementation can take place we need to have a dramatic change of attitude. An understanding of that borders are no good protection is an insight we need to acquire. With our modern technology the world gets smaller

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

H LV wrote: > ​This seems like an appropriate moment to bring up an important and > neglected men's issue. In the US, men comprise 93% of workplace deaths. > I do not think this has anything to do with a bias against men. It is a bias against women working in certain

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

No Jed, I am not arguing with you about who read more history. If you think you KNOW that today is far better than another time then be it so. I still think that depends on what you think is important and if you can satisfy basic needs. I am sure Hover was a good guy. Yes, Jed some laws were well

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

I agree that the argument that the threat of starvation and economic marginalization can be useful for motivating people to do something with their lives is unpersuasive now, if it ever was persuasive. I don't think people should face starvation, or even go without dental care, as a result of

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Lennart Thornros wrote: > > >> See the licensing system for different trades, which is close to medieval >> rules for trade. >> > > Not just close; they are the same in many instances, for good

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Lennart Thornros wrote: > In medieval times there were rules decided by people in a certain trade if > they would allow any new person to establish business in that trade. They > were supposed to be able to see the need for more resources. Guess what? > They made

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Jed, I do believe you have a house inPA and that it is welluilt following rules from 1790. I am fine with your father was a good member of NIST if you say so. I did not read much of your other examples of poor regulations. I actually try to say that old obsolete laws are still in the law books as

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

I wrote: > In another example, many building codes in Pennsylvania are the same today > as they were in 1790. > I happen to know this because I own a house in the barn in Pennsylvania which were constructed in 1790. The man who reconstructed them is an expert in colonial and early American

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Jed, In medieval times there were rules decided by people in a certain trade if they would allow any new person to establish business in that trade. They were supposed to be able to see the need for more resources. Guess what? They made competition non-existent. Today the licensing has ambition to

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Lennart Thornros wrote: > See the licensing system for different trades, which is close to medieval > rules for trade. > Not just close; they are the same in many instances, for good reason. People in medieval times were not fools. In another example, many building codes

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

As with any change one can approach it at least two ways. 1. Fear it and see the doomsday approaching. 2. Accept it and try to regroup to get maximum benefit from it. To me it is obvious and to most people it is when I put it this simple. The problem occurs because people dive into details and

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 10:57 AM, a.ashfield wrote: > > > > Many prominent European social scientists have now come out in favor of > basic income - among them two Nobel laureates in economics. Alaska has a > modest UBI instituted by a Republican governor, based on the

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

I wrote a long piece about this last year covering the present, the near future and possible solutions. The third part on solutions follows. *Possible solutions.* The Triple Revolution (Cybernation. Weaponry, Human Rights)**was an open letter, signed by notables, sent to President LB

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

If its not robots it is outsourcing. I, for one, do not understand the new economy. How is the US be great again without any manufacturing jobs? Maybe we will all write apps for each other. http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/12/news/companies/carrier-moving-jobs-mexico-youtube/

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

another point to mitigate the fear si that if you cannot be more intelligent than a computer, you can use it. I cannot compute as fast as Excel, but I can make model and accounting with it. 2016-02-15 2:33 GMT+01:00 Jed Rothwell : > I am glad to see people paying

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

The last sentence in Jed's post (in red below) is food for thought for theologians. On Feb 14, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Patrick Ellul wrote: > Jed, > You seem to be passionate about this topic. > I am too. > Do you know of a collection of links to essays and studies regarding it? > Regards. > > On

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

Jed, You seem to be passionate about this topic. I am too. Do you know of a collection of links to essays and studies regarding it? Regards. On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > I am glad to see people paying attention to this issue. I hope it is not >

Re: [Vo]:Intelligent robots threaten millions of jobs

I am glad to see people paying attention to this issue. I hope it is not politicized. Many people feel that that work is a moral issue; that able-bodied people who do not work should not be given sustenance. This was a reasonable view in the past, but now that robots are making rapid progress it