Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
At 12:17 PM 3/18/03 -0600, Reggie Bautista wrote: George wrote: I've been putting off Delany because my one experience with him was Dahlgren -- HATED IT! I'm afraid the two mentioned above will be more of the same. Nevertheless, I will eveentually read them. I've read _Dahlgren_ (and yes Ronn!, I actually read it all the way through :-), and although it had a few interesting ideas, most of it was dreck. However, some of Delany's other fiction is really top-notch. I particularly like _Nova_. In my case, I had read some of his other stuff and liked it *before* I started reading _Dahlgren_, so it was very likely the contrast between This guy writes good stuff! and What kind of [EMAIL PROTECTED] is this?! which colored my attitude toward it. It would be interesting (although I didn't do it) to have asked the people who said they stopped around page 100 if _Dahlgren_ was or was not the first thing by Delaney they read . . . -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foamÂ… God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
William T Goodall wrote: I've read all of those and none would be in my top five...which would be (a tough call and in date order) -1968 Lord of Light Roger Zelazny -1970 The Left Hand of Darkness Ursula K LeGuin - 1985 Neuromancer William Gibson - 1990 Hyperion Dan Simmons - 2000 A Deepness in the Sky Vernor Vinge I really enjoyed Hyperion (as well as the three sequels) and A Deepness in the Sky. I'd put the rest as average or below. Nebula Winners still to Read - 1966Babel-17 Samuel R. Delany - 1968Einstein Intersection Samuel R. Delany - 1971A Time of Changes Robert Silverberg - 1981The Claw of the Conciliator Gene Wolfe I've read all of those... I have all of these but something keeps jumping past them in my want to read list. I've been putting off Delany because my one experience with him was Dahlgren -- HATED IT! I'm afraid the two mentioned above will be more of the same. Nevertheless, I will eveentually read them. ...and none of those. My fiction reading has been declining steadily for years. Down from 400 novels a year to ~ 20. What happened? That is a considerable drop. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
At 06:13 PM 3/18/03 +0900, G. D. Akin wrote: I have all of these but something keeps jumping past them in my want to read list. I've been putting off Delany because my one experience with him was Dahlgren -- HATED IT! After many years of hearing comments on it, I finally heard from _one_ person who claimed to have read more than approximately the first 100 pages. In fact, he claimed to have actually finished the whole book. P. U. Maru -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foamÂ… God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 10:55 am, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 06:13 PM 3/18/03 +0900, G. D. Akin wrote: I have all of these but something keeps jumping past them in my want to read list. I've been putting off Delany because my one experience with him was Dahlgren -- HATED IT! After many years of hearing comments on it, I finally heard from _one_ person who claimed to have read more than approximately the first 100 pages. In fact, he claimed to have actually finished the whole book. I've read it twice! The bits with the fancy typographical layout are slightly harder going than the average read...[1] My list of authors I have never read a whole novel by consists of Hemingway[2] + everybody else I was supposed to read at school...unless they were a sf/fantasy/horror writer. [1] And it was an early edition with some mistakes in that were corrected in later editions. Not sure who was supposed to be able to tell that apart from the author :) [2] Why does it always rain when the protagonist is glum? How realistic is that, not. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ How long a minute is depends on which side of the bathroom door you're on. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 09:13 am, G. D. Akin wrote: William T Goodall wrote: - 1966Babel-17 Samuel R. Delany - 1968Einstein Intersection Samuel R. Delany - 1971A Time of Changes Robert Silverberg - 1981The Claw of the Conciliator Gene Wolfe I've read all of those... I have all of these but something keeps jumping past them in my want to read list. I've been putting off Delany because my one experience with him was Dahlgren -- HATED IT! I'm afraid the two mentioned above will be more of the same. They are very different. Delany's writing has several different periods, each stylistically quite different. _Dhalgren_ is a period to itself :) ...and none of those. My fiction reading has been declining steadily for years. Down from 400 novels a year to ~ 20. What happened? That is a considerable drop. Actually I only read about 20 *new* novels a year. I do reread a few more, although I couldn't say how many at all. That drop has been over 25 years or so. I've pretty much read the complete works of everybody from Poul Anderson to Roger Zelazny that was published before the mid-eighties. My sf/fantasy collection has around 2500 - 3000 books [1]. I also have FSF and Analog from 1978 to the present[2] which must be about 600 magazines...[3] So I see less and less stuff that seems original, and more and more that seems like 'read that before, and done better'. An other thing is reading more non-fiction, and spending time on the computer/internet that once might have been novel reading time. My typical Amazon book parcel now contains 3 O'Reilly titles for each novel... And finally there is TV. For several years I didn't even own one, since there was nothing worth watching anyway. Now there is Buffy and Angel and Alias and other neat stuff that uses up several hours a week. And the movie channels... [1] About 15 years since I last tried to count it, and it was 2000 then. [2] Years since I read a whole issue from cover to cover. [3] Plus miscellaneous other chapbooks and old magazines. Like Analog vol. LXXII No. 4 for December 1963 with part 1 of 'Dune World' by Frank Herbert. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ First they came for the verbs, and I said nothing because verbing weirds language. Then they arrival for the nouns, and I speech nothing because I no verbs. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
George wrote: I've been putting off Delany because my one experience with him was Dahlgren -- HATED IT! I'm afraid the two mentioned above will be more of the same. Nevertheless, I will eveentually read them. I've read _Dahlgren_ (and yes Ronn!, I actually read it all the way through :-), and although it had a few interesting ideas, most of it was dreck. However, some of Delany's other fiction is really top-notch. I particularly like _Nova_. Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
G. D. Akin wrote: I really enjoyed Hyperion (as well as the three sequels) and A Deepness in the Sky. I'd put the rest as average or below. I absolutely loved Hyperion (I'd rate it 10/10), but the series went downhill a bit from there, for me, (although, even the last book, my least favorite, was OK), My problem was the ending of the second Endymion book felt really rushed despite the book being rather long and slow-moving. Between that and the unanswered questions, I was a bit disappointed at how the series ended. -Bryon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
William T Goodall wrote: My list of authors I have never read a whole novel by consists of Hemingway[2] + everybody else I was supposed to read at school...unless they were a sf/fantasy/horror writer. I don't care for Hemmingway, either, based on the one book of his I did read - The Sun Also Rises. *Snore* The main point of the book seemed to be about people sitting around getting drunk. In my high school English class, the teacher wanted us to read Invisble Man, by Ralph Waldo Ellison. After we realized it wasn't the HG Wells story, I helped lead a class revolt against it and she picked a different book for us to read. Later, in college, I ended up having to read Invisible Man for a class, and I discovered it was a quite twisted, but excellent, book. So I still feel a bit guilty about that. -bryon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
- Original Message - From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:55 AM Subject: Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers) At 06:13 PM 3/18/03 +0900, G. D. Akin wrote: I have all of these but something keeps jumping past them in my want to read list. I've been putting off Delany because my one experience with him was Dahlgren -- HATED IT! After many years of hearing comments on it, I finally heard from _one_ person who claimed to have read more than approximately the first 100 pages. In fact, he claimed to have actually finished the whole book. I read it through, twice, as a teenager and thought it was very deep. Later went back to it again and couldn't figure out why I was so impressed. The same thing happened with Zelazny, although I still treasure certain of his work in my collection. Gene Wolfe, among others, has commanded a considerable amount of respect from me for quite a while (I mention that because someone (William?) at another point in this thread has The Claw of the Conciliator on a to read list, and I would heartily recommend the entire New Sun tetrad, *especially* if you're down to 20 reads a year). I never know, though, when I'm going to go back to something (I'm big on re-runs) and find my tastes have changed again. It always saddens me, because I remember how much fun it was back in the day. Tom ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
Julia Thompson asked OK, I haven't read Gateway yet (wasn't there a book preceding it that I really ought to read first?), but I've read the others and enjoyed them. I've read both versions of Stranger, but a few years apart. (Summer of 1988 as opposed to spring of 1991) Gateway was the first of four books in the HeeChee series. I think there are some short stories but they are not necessay to read before Gateway. although Where's the best place to snag a complete list of Nebula award winners? Go to www.locusmag.com and follow their awards link or check out http://dpsinfo.com/awardweb/ George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
Julia Thompson wrote: OK, I haven't read Gateway yet (wasn't there a book preceding it that I really ought to read first?), Nope, Gateway is the first book in the series. I think there may be one or two short stories in _The Gateway Trip_ that were *set* before Gateway, but they were written later. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
Steve Sloan II wrote: Nope, Gateway is the first book in the series. I think there may be one or two short stories in _The Gateway Trip_ that were *set* before Gateway, but they were written later. On second thought, George is right. There was a story set in the same universe that was written earlier, set on Venus. Reading it isn't really necessary before reading Gateway, though, since I only found out about it years after I'd read the Heechee series. In fact, that makes it a lot like the Asimov story Mother Earth, which introduced the Spacer worlds, and showed the beginning of the rivalry between Earth and the Spacers, but was not necessary to read and enjoy the Elijah Baley robot mysteries. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
On Sunday, March 16, 2003, at 01:22 am, G. D. Akin wrote: Julia asked What are your favorites of all the Hugo novels? Julia Tough question! I'll pick my top five in no particular order. - 1978 Gateway Frederick Pohl - 1988 The Uplift War David Brin - 1962 Stranger in a Strange Land Robert A. Heinlien - 1971 Ringworld Larry Niven - 1976 The Forever War Joe Haldeman If you really press me for an absolute favorite, I'd give a slight nod to Stranger in a Strange Land. I've read all of those and none would be in my top five...which would be (a tough call and in date order) -1968 Lord of Light Roger Zelazny -1970 The Left Hand of Darkness Ursula K LeGuin - 1985 Neuromancer William Gibson - 1990 HyperionDan Simmons - 2000 A Deepness in the Sky Vernor Vinge Worst (IMO) tie - 1958The Big TimeFritz Leiber - 1963The Man in the High CastlePhilip K. Dick I didn't really like _The Big Time_ much either. The Dick is not one of his best, but even not one of his best is pretty good... I haven't read all of the Hugo winners, but of those I have my least favourite would be - 1961 A Canticle for LeibowitzWalter M Miller Jr -1962 Stranger in a Strange Land Robert A Heinlein Or so I claim today anyway :) Nebula Winners still to Read - 1966Babel-17 Samuel R. Delany - 1968Einstein Intersection Samuel R. Delany - 1971A Time of Changes Robert Silverberg - 1981The Claw of the Conciliator Gene Wolfe I've read all of those... - 1987The Falling Woman Pat Murphy - 1990Tehanu: The Last Book of Earthsea Ursula K. LeGuin - 1999Parable of the Talents Octavia E. Butler - 2001The Quantum Rose Catherine Asaro ...and none of those. My fiction reading has been declining steadily for years. Down from 400 novels a year to ~ 20. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without bricks tied to its head. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
--- Lalith Vipulananthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Debbi wrote: snippage instead the reader is asked to accept that a violent, brutal act is the first impulse of a hero. :P Well, this forms part of the fundamental reason why the first Covenant trilogy strays from the majority of fantasy and also why I like it so much: the fact that Covenant does *not* act like a hero. He refuses to believe that the Land is real, he refuses to act decisively on a number of occasions, he refuses to kill even to save himself, and he continuely insists that nothing he does matters *because* it's not real. Donaldson describes this at the start of _Lord Foul's Bane_ as 'the fundamental question of ethics'. Is the man who refuses to save something he believes is a dream, a coward, or a hero? But he could think and do (or not do) all those things *without* having raped a girl. The key events of the trilogy all center around this one despicable act that Covenant carries out, and no one can really forsee the consequences that result, least of all him. snip I love these books and would recommend that you try them again. However, if you were that badly put off by the rape scene first time round, do you think the intervening years will make any difference to that reaction? Doubtful, as since then I have dealt more with the consequences of violence directed at women (eg. beating, rape, physical isolation), and find absolutely *no* romantic elements in forced sex. (I should add that I have also worked with a man who was attacked as a pre-teen, and I find a male character raping another man equally repugnant.) Now *seduction* is another matter entirely, and I'd be flat lying if I said I didn't indulge in such fantasies from time to time... ;} But seduction is about the seduced yielding to their own sexual desires, while rape is forced or coerced sex, having nothing to do with the rapee's desire. I think that's one of the appealing features of some of the modern vampires - you yearn to yield to your dark side, even though you know it's dangerous... Debbi who BTW isn't an Ann Rice fan __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
From: Doug Pensinger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I did not like the first book of that series but thought the second one was OK. I hate books where the main character is pathetic. And the woman in that book was pretty pathetic in the first one. But she got better in the second... Huh. I don't remember the story at all, but I do remember enjoying the first book and having the distinct impression that Donaldson was tired of the whole idea in the second book and just wanted to get it over with. Unfortunately, that's about the extent of what I remember. Except that the main character in the first book just kept doing stupid things and letting people do awful things to her... - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
Steve Sloan II wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: OK, I haven't read Gateway yet (wasn't there a book preceding it that I really ought to read first?), Nope, Gateway is the first book in the series. I think there may be one or two short stories in _The Gateway Trip_ that were *set* before Gateway, but they were written later. __ I highly recommend the Heechee Saga. Talking about them makes me want to reread them, but as talking about Stranger in a Strange Land and The Chronicles of TC the U, have me reading those already, it may be a while. Doug Who remembers having a hard time finding _one_ good book to read before brin-l. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
Julia wrote: What are your favorites of all the Hugo novels? George A. replied: Tough question! [top 5 snipped] Worst (IMO) tie - 1963The Man in the High CastlePhilip K. Dick So it's not just me! I've never gotten more than about a third of the way through it. I'm generally a PKD fan, but this one just does nothing for me. Reggie Bautista _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
G. D. Akin wrote: Julia asked G. D. Akin wrote: Sheesh, I hope not. I've never read his works, but I will soon read his Claw of the Conciliator which won a Nebula a few years back. I'm trying to read all the Hugo (actually, done that) and Nebula Award winners. Just a goal. I had that as a goal (the Hugos, anyway) and kind of have let it slide lately. Good goal, IMO. (I've managed to at least *acquire* all but a couple of Hugo-winning novels. Now it's just a matter of *reading*.) What are your favorites of all the Hugo novels? Julia Tough question! I'll pick my top five in no particular order. - 1978 Gateway Frederick Pohl - 1988 The Uplift War David Brin - 1962 Stranger in a Strange Land Robert A. Heinlien - 1971 Ringworld Larry Niven - 1976 The Forever War Joe Haldeman If you really press me for an absolute favorite, I'd give a slight nod to Stranger in a Strange Land. OK, I haven't read Gateway yet (wasn't there a book preceding it that I really ought to read first?), but I've read the others and enjoyed them. I've read both versions of Stranger, but a few years apart. (Summer of 1988 as opposed to spring of 1991) Worst (IMO) tie - 1958The Big TimeFritz Leiber - 1963The Man in the High CastlePhilip K. Dick I thought The Big Time wasn't the best I'd ever read, but it was entertaining, at least. The Man in the High Castle wasn't my favorite PK Dick, either. (I'm somewhat partial to A Scanner Darkly of everything of his I've read.) Nebula Winners still to Read - 1966Babel-17 Samuel R. Delany - 1968Einstein Intersection Samuel R. Delany - 1971A Time of Changes Robert Silverberg - 1981The Claw of the Conciliator Gene Wolfe - 1987The Falling Woman Pat Murphy - 1990Tehanu: The Last Book of Earthsea Ursula K. LeGuin - 1999Parable of the Talents Octavia E. Butler - 2001The Quantum Rose Catherine Asaro Of those, I've only read Tehanu and Claw, but I own three of the others, and now I'm going to try to get my grubby mits on the Asaro book. Thanks for the feedback. Where's the best place to snag a complete list of Nebula award winners? (Anyone?) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
On Sun, 16 Mar 2003, Julia Thompson wrote: I thought The Big Time wasn't the best I'd ever read, but it was entertaining, at least. It's been a long time since I read The Big Time, but remember enjoying it. Then, I love just about anything by Fritz Leiber. He's a genre stylist who writes work that is aware of itself without being a parody or satire of itself (Silver Eggheads being the deliberate exception). Really delicious. Not really a visionary SF writer in the Asimov/Brin/Bear/Benford sense of the word, but more of an accomplished jack of all trades. Where's the best place to snag a complete list of Nebula award winners? (Anyone?) http://www.sfwa.org/awards/archive/pastwin.htm Marvin Long Austin, Texas Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Poindexter Ashcroft, LLP (Formerly the USA) http://www.breakyourchains.org/john_poindexter.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Kevin Tarr wrote: I also don't like Stephen got my thesaurus right beside me Donaldson. I'm fairly well educated, but when I read for pleasure, I don't want to have to have a thesaurus right there. About three pages into the first book, I was reminded of Margaret Meade in her Growing Up in New Guinea saying that young boys would micturate into the water. For goodness sakes, if you can't bring yourself to say 'piss', at least say urinate. I know scholarly works must show an extensive vocabulary, but SF and/or Fantasy novels don't. George A Isn't this the same for Gene Wolfe? But he does it to show language evolving and the hardly used words become common? Sheesh, I hope not. I've never read his works, but I will soon read his Claw of the Conciliator which won a Nebula a few years back. I'm trying to read all the Hugo (actually, done that) and Nebula Award winners. Just a goal. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
- Original Message - From: Lalith Vipulananthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 9:51 PM Subject: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers) George wrote: Lalith Vipulananthan asked: Just out of interest, how old were you when you read these books? In my early 30s. Thus shooting a hole in one theory I'd developed with Ritu that age is a determining factor in one's enjoyment of the Covenant books. Most of the people I know who hated them read them before they were 18. I think I need to do some more rigourous research. So, language and the main character put you off. What about the story itself, the supporting characters, the description of the Land and its history and the fundamental question of ethics? The first criteria for a book from me is that I have to enjoy it. I have to like the characters (even the bad guys who have to be good bad guys). The science ( I know, this is fantasy, not SF) has to be fairly accurate and where liberties are taken and assumptions are made, those liberties and assumptions must remain consistent. And, usually, depending on the story, I have to want to be there. Finally, the book must be readable. Overall, the story has to click somewhere in my brain. however tiny it may seem. So, Thomas Covenant is not remotely likeable. And I surely wouldn't want to go anywhere near the Land. And it is quite possible that Mr. Donaldson's style isn't mine. None of the books clicked. There--not scientific, not academic, just like or dislike. George A There--not scientific ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
G. D. Akin wrote: Sheesh, I hope not. I've never read his works, but I will soon read his Claw of the Conciliator which won a Nebula a few years back. I'm trying to read all the Hugo (actually, done that) and Nebula Award winners. Just a goal. I had that as a goal (the Hugos, anyway) and kind of have let it slide lately. Good goal, IMO. (I've managed to at least *acquire* all but a couple of Hugo-winning novels. Now it's just a matter of *reading*.) What are your favorites of all the Hugo novels? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Ah...My Favorite Topic - Books (Was Question about Spoilers)
Julia asked G. D. Akin wrote: Sheesh, I hope not. I've never read his works, but I will soon read his Claw of the Conciliator which won a Nebula a few years back. I'm trying to read all the Hugo (actually, done that) and Nebula Award winners. Just a goal. I had that as a goal (the Hugos, anyway) and kind of have let it slide lately. Good goal, IMO. (I've managed to at least *acquire* all but a couple of Hugo-winning novels. Now it's just a matter of *reading*.) What are your favorites of all the Hugo novels? Julia Tough question! I'll pick my top five in no particular order. - 1978 Gateway Frederick Pohl - 1988 The Uplift War David Brin - 1962 Stranger in a Strange Land Robert A. Heinlien - 1971 Ringworld Larry Niven - 1976 The Forever War Joe Haldeman If you really press me for an absolute favorite, I'd give a slight nod to Stranger in a Strange Land. Worst (IMO) tie - 1958The Big TimeFritz Leiber - 1963The Man in the High CastlePhilip K. Dick Nebula Winners still to Read - 1966Babel-17 Samuel R. Delany - 1968Einstein Intersection Samuel R. Delany - 1971A Time of Changes Robert Silverberg - 1981The Claw of the Conciliator Gene Wolfe - 1987The Falling Woman Pat Murphy - 1990Tehanu: The Last Book of Earthsea Ursula K. LeGuin - 1999Parable of the Talents Octavia E. Butler - 2001The Quantum Rose Catherine Asaro George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
William wrote: Since 'Claw' is volume 2 of _The Book of the New Sun_, it might be a good idea to start with volume 1, The Shadow of the Torturer. Probably. I have a self-inflicted rule to read any prequel in a series, so I will do as you suggest. I have a nice SFBC omnibus edition of The Book of the New Sun in my to read stack. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
From: Lalith Vipulananthan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The second trilogy in more than one word:Even more depressing. awful Wah. Why did you find it awful? Did you also think that _The One Tree_ was almost entirely redundant? To be honest, I don't remember. I read them a long time ago; I guess when they first came out. All I remember was that everything had changed. And that I hated the books. Sorry! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
From: Kevin Tarr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] And I really like the Mirror of her Dreams two (three?) books. I did not like the first book of that series but thought the second one was OK. I hate books where the main character is pathetic. And the woman in that book was pretty pathetic in the first one. But she got better in the second... - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
Horn, John wrote: From: Kevin Tarr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] And I really like the Mirror of her Dreams two (three?) books. I did not like the first book of that series but thought the second one was OK. I hate books where the main character is pathetic. And the woman in that book was pretty pathetic in the first one. But she got better in the second... Huh. I don't remember the story at all, but I do remember enjoying the first book and having the distinct impression that Donaldson was tired of the whole idea in the second book and just wanted to get it over with. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
George A wrote: The first Covenant trilogy in one word: Depressing. The second trilogy in more than one word:Even more depressing. I didn't make it very far into the first trilogy for that and other reasons. --- Lalith Vipulananthan wrote George wrote: Lalith Vipulananthan asked: Just out of interest, how old were you when you read these books? In my early 30s. Thus shooting a hole in one theory I'd developed with Ritu that age is a determining factor in one's enjoyment of the Covenant books. Most of the people I know who hated them read them before they were 18. I think I need to do some more rigourous research. So, language and the main character put you off. What about the story itself, the supporting characters, the description of the Land and its history and the fundamental question of ethics? jumping in I was ~25 when I read the first book, which I only finished because a good friend had highly recommended it. I nearly tossed it after the rape-and-then-she-falls-in-love scenario, as that is so far from real life that I couldn't stand it. I found nothing to like in the main character (I admit I haven't read the book in nearly 2 decades, so _maybe_ I'd find something that could overcome that initial disgust - but I doubt it). Debbi who heard that in later books the author killed off the horses... :P __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
Deborah wrote: jumping in I was ~25 when I read the first book, which I only finished because a good friend had highly recommended it. I nearly tossed it after the rape-and-then-she-falls-in-love scenario, as that is so far from real life that I couldn't stand it. You did only read the first book, _Lord Foul's Bane_, right? I'm just wondering because the '...-and-then-she-falls-in-love' scenario is only suggested mid-way through _The Illearth War_ and explicit in _The Power that Preserves_. I found nothing to like in the main character (I admit I haven't read the book in nearly 2 decades, so _maybe_ I'd find something that could overcome that initial disgust - but I doubt it). At the risk of blundering into this subject like an idiot, what objections did you have to that scene? Was it gratuitous, overly descriptive, unnecessary etc? What else didn't you like about the book other than Covenant's character? Did you dislike the other characters as well, like Saltheart Foamfollower and Lord Mhoram? Debbi who heard that in later books the author killed off the horses... :P Uh, yes. That is true. Donaldson does do an excellent job of portraying the horses, the Ranyhyn, as complex creatures. They are seen to be majestic, proud and magnificent, as well as manipulative, which is partly to blame for the dire situation in which they find themselves by the third book. Lal GSV Ramen ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
John Horn wrote: From: G. D. Akin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The first Covenant trilogy in one word:Depressing. great Agreed. The second trilogy in more than one word:Even more depressing. awful Wah. Why did you find it awful? Did you also think that _The One Tree_ was almost entirely redundant? This seems to be turning into a long series of questions to find out why people dislike the Covenant books. After that, perhaps I'll start on the Gap series. Lal GSV Or Maybe not ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
At 01:07 AM 3/14/2003 +, you wrote: John Horn wrote: From: G. D. Akin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The first Covenant trilogy in one word:Depressing. great Agreed. The second trilogy in more than one word:Even more depressing. awful Wah. Why did you find it awful? Did you also think that _The One Tree_ was almost entirely redundant? This seems to be turning into a long series of questions to find out why people dislike the Covenant books. After that, perhaps I'll start on the Gap series. Lal Ohhh I hated the Gap stories, heck I read the first book on brothers recommendation and wanted to burn it. Just the way the story was being told, yuck. But I liked Covenant books, not greatly but I've been thinking of reading them again. And I really like the Mirror of her Dreams two (three?) books. Kevin T. - VRWC ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
--- Lalith Vipulananthan wrote: Deborah wrote: jumping in I was ~25 when I read the first book, which I only finished because a good friend had highly recommended it. I nearly tossed it after the rape-and-then-she-falls-in-love scenario, as that is so far from real life that I couldn't stand it. You did only read the first book, _Lord Foul's Bane_, right? I'm just wondering because the '...-and-then-she-falls-in-love' scenario is only suggested mid-way through _The Illearth War_ and explicit in _The Power that Preserves_. Hmm, well it *was* a long time ago...I'm not sure if I learned that through conversation -- I really don't recognize the other characters you named below (like the one name, though!) -- it's entirely possible that my friend discussed further storyline(s) in an effort to convince me to read them. I found nothing to like in the main character (I admit I haven't read the book in nearly 2 decades, so _maybe_ I'd find something that could overcome that initial disgust - but I doubt it). At the risk of blundering into this subject like an idiot, what objections did you have to that scene? Was it gratuitous, overly descriptive, unnecessary etc? I don't recall the actual wording, just that in the flush of returning bodily sensation his first (?) act was to violate another person. Had he instead felt deliriously sexual but run off into the trees to 'handle things himself,' or fallen to his knees and convinced the young lady with a torrent of fervent praise of her person that he was love-smitten, and she yielded to her own sudden yearning, it would have been touchingly funny; instead the reader is asked to accept that a violent, brutal act is the first impulse of a hero. :P What else didn't you like about the book other than Covenant's character? Did you dislike the other characters as well, like Saltheart Foamfollower and Lord Mhoram? Sorry, no recall of more of the plot, and I must not have cared much for any of the other characters, or I'd remember something of what they did. Debbi who heard that in later books the author killed off the horses... :P Uh, yes. That is true. Donaldson does do an excellent job of portraying the horses, the Ranyhyn, as complex creatures. They are seen to be majestic, proud and magnificent, as well as manipulative, which is partly to blame for the dire situation in which they find themselves by the third book. Sort of like Tolkien's elves, eh? :) Actually, horses *are* somewhat manipulative - part of being social creatures; the other characteristics you listed are of course also true. ;D Debbi who will be at the Denver Horse Expo for the next 3 days, oh joy! :D __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
Debbi wrote: Hmm, well it *was* a long time ago...I'm not sure if I learned that through conversation -- I really don't recognize the other characters you named below (like the one name, though!) -- it's entirely possible that my friend discussed further storyline(s) in an effort to convince me to read them. Um, he/she may have gone the wrong way about it! instead the reader is asked to accept that a violent, brutal act is the first impulse of a hero. :P Well, this forms part of the fundamental reason why the first Covenant trilogy strays from the majority of fantasy and also why I like it so much: the fact that Covenant does *not* act like a hero. He refuses to believe that the Land is real, he refuses to act decisively on a number of occasions, he refuses to kill even to save himself, and he continuely insists that nothing he does matters *because* it's not real. Donaldson describes this at the start of _Lord Foul's Bane_ as 'the fundamental question of ethics'. Is the man who refuses to save something he believes is a dream, a coward, or a hero? The key events of the trilogy all center around this one despicable act that Covenant carries out, and no one can really forsee the consequences that result, least of all him. Sorry, no recall of more of the plot, and I must not have cared much for any of the other characters, or I'd remember something of what they did. Well, I liked the characters a lot when I first read the books, but that was only 6 years ago and I had forgotten everything bar the basic plot until I reread them recently. To be honest, the supporting characters only come into their own in the second book (Lord Mhoram for example) and Saltheart Foamfollower in the third (though he is cool in the first book as well). Sort of like Tolkien's elves, eh? :) Actually, horses *are* somewhat manipulative - part of being social creatures; the other characteristics you listed are of course also true. ;D You don't find out about the manipulative stuff until the second book. ;) I love these books and would recommend that you try them again. However, if you were that badly put off by the rape scene first time round, do you think the intervening years will make any difference to that reaction? Lal GSV Stone and Sea! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
--- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip How was it? I've been avoiding Brin lately (gasp!) as the last 2 I read, Sundiver and Practice Effect, I found to be.. well, not my favorite books ever. Not bad, per se, just not so great. Hearing what little I have about KP, I'm worried its an Saturday Night Live book - takes a neat premise and goes too far with it. Late - I'll add that I didn't care overly much for those two either, but _Startide Rising_ is brilliant, and _Uplift War_ is cleverly crafted, frequently hysterical (I laughed out loud a lot, and still do upon re-reading), and has some of the best male-female characterizations and dynamics I've ever read. Fiben Rocks! Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
On 10 Mar 2003 at 19:46, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip How was it? I've been avoiding Brin lately (gasp!) as the last 2 I read, Sundiver and Practice Effect, I found to be.. well, not my favorite books ever. Not bad, per se, just not so great. Hearing what little I have about KP, I'm worried its an Saturday Night Live book - takes a neat premise and goes too far with it. Late - I'll add that I didn't care overly much for those two either, but _Startide Rising_ is brilliant, and _Uplift War_ is cleverly crafted, frequently hysterical (I laughed out loud a lot, and still do upon re-reading), and has some of the best male-female characterizations and dynamics I've ever read. Definately. *grins and points at his E-mail address* Oh, if anyone wants an E-mail @upliftwar.com to forward to their usual E-mail address, E-mail me off-list :P All I need is another copy of The Uplift War now. This will make the fourth one I've bought. You'd have thought I'd have stopped lending them to people by now... Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
George wrote: I know scholarly works must show an extensive vocabulary, but SF and/or Fantasy novels don't. I don't agree. Why should genre determine the vocabulary used within a novel? Of course, all this is a matter of personal taste and as for Covenant, didn't like the taste. Don't ask why I read all 6 books. Okay, I'll tell you . . . I finish what I start. I figured the next book would have to get better--they didn't. Just out of interest, how old were you when you read these books? Lal GSV Determining Factors ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Lalith Vipulananthan asked: Just out of interest, how old were you when you read these books? In my early 30s. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Thomas Covenant (was RE: Question about Spoilers)
George wrote: Lalith Vipulananthan asked: Just out of interest, how old were you when you read these books? In my early 30s. Thus shooting a hole in one theory I'd developed with Ritu that age is a determining factor in one's enjoyment of the Covenant books. Most of the people I know who hated them read them before they were 18. I think I need to do some more rigourous research. So, language and the main character put you off. What about the story itself, the supporting characters, the description of the Land and its history and the fundamental question of ethics? Lal GSV Curious ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
From: G. D. Akin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The first Covenant trilogy in one word:Depressing. great The second trilogy in more than one word:Even more depressing. awful - jmh To Each His Own Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
On Sat, Mar 08, 2003 at 10:22:34AM -0500, Jim Sharkey wrote: What I admire about the Covenant books was that I enjoyed them a great deal despite how much I disliked their protagonist. I frankly find Thomas Covenant to be one of the most unlikable main characters in Fantasy/SF literature. Sure, he makes the right decisions in the end, but he whines incessantly right up until that point. Great books, but I wanted to kick Covenant in his ass for most of it. Whine, whine, always whining about whiners! :-) Me too! -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
From: Jim Sharkey wrote: What I admire about the Covenant books was that I enjoyed them a great deal despite how much I disliked their protagonist. I frankly find Thomas Covenant to be one of the most unlikable main characters in Fantasy/SF literature. Sure, he makes the right decisions in the end, but he whines incessantly right up until that point. Great books, but I wanted to kick Covenant in his ass for most of it. - Would agree with you there. One early first-book scene describes Covenant and the care he takes shaving with a straight edge. He should've just slit himself there and save us (or me at least) a lot of time. I also don't like Stephen got my thesaurus right beside me Donaldson. I'm fairly well educated, but when I read for pleasure, I don't want to have to have a thesaurus right there. About three pages into the first book, I was reminded of Margaret Meade in her Growing Up in New Guinea saying that young boys would micturate into the water. For goodness sakes, if you can't bring yourself to say 'piss', at least say urinate. I know scholarly works must show an extensive vocabulary, but SF and/or Fantasy novels don't. Of course, all this is a matter of personal taste and as for Covenant, didn't like the taste. Don't ask why I read all 6 books. Okay, I'll tell you . . . I finish what I start. I figured the next book would have to get better--they didn't. I won't read a third trilogy. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
I also don't like Stephen got my thesaurus right beside me Donaldson. I'm fairly well educated, but when I read for pleasure, I don't want to have to have a thesaurus right there. About three pages into the first book, I was reminded of Margaret Meade in her Growing Up in New Guinea saying that young boys would micturate into the water. For goodness sakes, if you can't bring yourself to say 'piss', at least say urinate. I know scholarly works must show an extensive vocabulary, but SF and/or Fantasy novels don't. George A Isn't this the same for Gene Wolfe? But he does it to show language evolving and the hardly used words become common? Kevin T. - VRWC Long time since I read The Torturer ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 12:17 am, G. D. Akin wrote: I also don't like Stephen got my thesaurus right beside me Donaldson. I'm fairly well educated, but when I read for pleasure, I don't want to have to have a thesaurus right there. Much fun has been had at the expense of Donaldson over that... About three pages into the first book, I was reminded of Margaret Meade in her Growing Up in New Guinea saying that young boys would micturate into the water. Micturate isn't such a rare word - but then I'm British, and we like scatological humour, and expectorate in the face of evil... Of course, all this is a matter of personal taste and as for Covenant, didn't like the taste. Don't ask why I read all 6 books. Okay, I'll tell you . . . I finish what I start. I figured the next book would have to get better--they didn't. I won't read a third trilogy. I quite enjoyed the first two trilogies, but haven't reread them since they were published. Which was probably quite a while ago now... -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ GSV Partly rugous, partly squamous maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
William T Goodall wrote: I quite enjoyed the first two trilogies, but haven't reread them since they were published. Which was probably quite a while ago now... I read them as they were being published and liked them then. I re-read LFB some years ago and wasn't as impressed as the first time. Still, it was a good story and might be worth another try, especially if there's to be a third series. Doug ROU Bloodguard ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Jeffrey Miller- How was it? I've been avoiding Brin lately (gasp!) as the last 2 I read, Sundiver and Practice Effect, I found to be.. well, not my favorite books ever. Not bad, per se, just not so great. Hearing what little I have about KP, I'm worried its an Saturday Night Live book - takes a neat premise and goes too far with it. Avoiding Brin? Well, ok, Practice Effect could be considered lighter on the sink your teeth into a big juicy Brin scale, but there is a great meaty side of that scale not to ignore. I remember thinking that Sundiver was just an appetizer to Uplift, but I read Startide and Uplift War first. The list is one way that I try and figure out what books to read, based on members who seem to have similar tastes, etc (and Wednesday chat recs). Brin has some wide writing diversity, at it's simplest/very gross representation- Brin does physics, Brin deals with sociology, etc all the way to Brin does mystery. Sure they are all scifi, but he can move between worlds in many ways. If you read KILN people from a story perspective it is good, if you look at things based on all the roles and personalities we have and how we integrate all those selves it can really be fun. As much as the ending is not my favorite, he explores some of the ways our roles/selves seek to make order of things/metaphysics. Again, depends on what you like, which Brin to read to get the biggest mindful- plenty of people around to help you pick. One of the things that I like about Brin is that even when the story seems simple, you have to appreciate the work/effort that went into it when you look back on them- riding down the road I often find myself chewing on something that I read weeks earlier. Dee catching up on mail slowly ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
On Friday, March 7, 2003, at 03:51 am, Andrew Crystall wrote: On 6 Mar 2003 at 23:16, William T Goodall wrote: On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 10:20 pm, Bryon Daly wrote: But speaking of pulpy and gratuitous - Anyone here read the Honor Harrington series books by David Weber? I've read about 6 so far (of 10) before I needed a hiatus. The rest are part of my stack of 20 waiting-to-be-read books (along with Kiln People and The Transparent Society, to tie this back to the Brin list). I've read them all. I think the last two could have done with some (more) editing. And I can't actually remember the plot of either of them, which wasn't the case for the first eight. I'm a huge Weber fan. I have all the Honourverse books both dead tree and ebook. If anyone wants the ebooks, they were on the CD with came with War of Honor and can be (perfectly legitmately, go Baen!) redistributed. Good CD. I've been re/reading Keith Laumer and James H Schmitz thanks to that. Ashes of Victory wasn't as strong as it might be, but I found War of Honor excellent. I suppose I'll have to read it again now... -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ A bad thing done for a good cause is still a bad thing. It's why so few people slap their political opponents. That, and because slapping looks so silly. - Randy Cohen. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
From: Miller, Jeffrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] How was it? I've been avoiding Brin lately (gasp!) as the last 2 I read, Sundiver and Practice Effect, I found to be.. well, not my favorite books ever. Not bad, per se, just not so great. Hearing what little I have about KP, I'm worried its an Saturday Night Live book - takes a neat premise and goes too far with it. I had the same worry about Kiln People. And about 1/3 of the way into the book I was still saying, This is neat but how is he going to stretch it out for an entire book. I was pleased to find that it did work for an entire book and never felt stretched or too far. So I'd say read it. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
From: Lalith Vipulananthan wrote: On another note, I can say that I am no longer a Brin virgin as I read _Kiln People_ (that apostrophe in the UK edition is just annoying) a couple of months ago. Ritu recommended _Earth_ as her favourite Brin book so I'm more likely to read that before I head into the Uplift War books. That, and the fact that I have a huge number of unread books that has become a running joke on the Culture List, means that the Uplift War will have to wait a little while longer but I'd still be interested in reading about it. Which probably doesn't make sense. I need more tea. While Earth definitely deserves a place on your to-read stack, I recommend reading the Uplift novels first, especially the first trilogy. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
- Original Message - From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Question about Spoilers Miller, Jeffrey wrote: :) I'm currently knee-deep in the Black Company series.. pulpy, gratuitous, but for some reason, I can't stop reading 'em.. I loved the first 5 or so books in Cook's Black Company Series. I really loved how many of the 'evil' characters were actually portrayed in different shades of gray with their own motivations and scheme-ings After that, the series started to go downhill for me, and the last book especially seemed quite rushed in certain ways I won't go into because of spoilers. Overall, though, quite fun to read. But speaking of pulpy and gratuitous - Anyone here read the Honor Harrington series books by David Weber? I've read about 6 so far (of 10) before I needed a hiatus. The rest are part of my stack of 20 waiting-to-be-read books (along with Kiln People and The Transparent Society, to tie this back to the Brin list). -bryon On another list, someone told they are worth reading. So On Basalisk Station is on the way from Amazon. I'm about 70 pages (of 578) from the end of Stephen's Baxter's Evolution. Start with a small primate named Purga just prior to the Chicxulub Meteor and follow the evolution of primates/homonids to some point way into the future. Excellent. George A George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
- Original Message - From: Lalith Vipulananthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 4:30 PM Subject: RE: Question about Spoilers Rob wrote: Where is this Lal? I'd like to brush up on my Covenant since a third trilogy might be in the offing. http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/index.php Have fun. Most people have chosen names of characters from the two trilogies. See if you can find me. ;) Lal GSV It's not hard The first Covenant trilogy in one word:Depressing. The second trilogy in more than one word:Even more depressing. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
George wrote: The first Covenant trilogy in one word:Depressing. The second trilogy in more than one word:Even more depressing. I wouldn't deny that these books are downbeat in nature, but to sum them up as depressing is to do them a great disservice. I liked all six books the first time I read them, and having re-read them all recently (well, not _White Gold Wielder_ but that's because I misplaced my copy), I have developed a far greater appreciation for the complexities of the story and the superb characters Donaldson created. The Covenant books rock. Lal GSV One of those weird people who likes Covenant *and* the Gap series (we are few in number) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
Julia wrote: So, that means that _Kiln People_ really ought to have spoiler space for awhile yet, and _Startide Rising_ really, really ought not need it, IMO. Hey, I haven't read any of the Uplift series yet! Spoiler space is necessary if it's not clear from the subject that you are discussing key points about a particular book. On another note, I can say that I am no longer a Brin virgin as I read _Kiln People_ (that apostrophe in the UK edition is just annoying) a couple of months ago. Ritu recommended _Earth_ as her favourite Brin book so I'm more likely to read that before I head into the Uplift War books. That, and the fact that I have a huge number of unread books that has become a running joke on the Culture List, means that the Uplift War will have to wait a little while longer but I'd still be interested in reading about it. Which probably doesn't make sense. I need more tea. Lal GSV On The Lal Pile ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
-Original Message- From: Lalith Vipulananthan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 01:01 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: RE: Question about Spoilers Julia wrote: So, that means that _Kiln People_ really ought to have spoiler space for awhile yet, and _Startide Rising_ really, really ought not need it, IMO. Hey, I haven't read any of the Uplift series yet! Spoiler space is necessary if it's not clear from the subject that you are discussing key points about a particular book. On another note, I can say that I am no longer a Brin virgin as I read _Kiln People_ (that apostrophe in the UK edition is just annoying) a couple of months ago. How was it? I've been avoiding Brin lately (gasp!) as the last 2 I read, Sundiver and Practice Effect, I found to be.. well, not my favorite books ever. Not bad, per se, just not so great. Hearing what little I have about KP, I'm worried its an Saturday Night Live book - takes a neat premise and goes too far with it. Ahh, but this sounds too harsh. :/ -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Miller, Jeffrey wrote: -Original Message- From: Lalith Vipulananthan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 01:01 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: RE: Question about Spoilers Julia wrote: So, that means that _Kiln People_ really ought to have spoiler space for awhile yet, and _Startide Rising_ really, really ought not need it, IMO. Hey, I haven't read any of the Uplift series yet! Spoiler space is necessary if it's not clear from the subject that you are discussing key points about a particular book. On another note, I can say that I am no longer a Brin virgin as I read _Kiln People_ (that apostrophe in the UK edition is just annoying) a couple of months ago. How was it? I've been avoiding Brin lately (gasp!) as the last 2 I read, Sundiver and Practice Effect, I found to be.. well, not my favorite books ever. Not bad, per se, just not so great. Those were earlier books. If you enjoyed stuff he wrote after those, then maybe you ought to give KP a shot. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
-Original Message- From: Julia Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 01:30 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Question about Spoilers Miller, Jeffrey wrote: How was it? I've been avoiding Brin lately (gasp!) as the last 2 I read, Sundiver and Practice Effect, I found to be.. well, not my favorite books ever. Not bad, per se, just not so great. Those were earlier books. If you enjoyed stuff he wrote after those, then maybe you ought to give KP a shot. :) I'm currently knee-deep in the Black Company series.. pulpy, gratuitous, but for some reason, I can't stop reading 'em.. -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
From: Lalith Vipulananthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Question about Spoilers Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 21:00:46 - Julia wrote: So, that means that _Kiln People_ really ought to have spoiler space for awhile yet, and _Startide Rising_ really, really ought not need it, IMO. Hey, I haven't read any of the Uplift series yet! Spoiler space is necessary if it's not clear from the subject that you are discussing key points about a particular book. On another note, I can say that I am no longer a Brin virgin as I read _Kiln People_ (that apostrophe in the UK edition is just annoying) a couple of months ago. Ritu recommended _Earth_ as her favourite Brin book so I'm more likely to read that before I head into the Uplift War books. That, and the fact that I have a huge number of unread books that has become a running joke on the Culture List, means that the Uplift War will have to wait a little while longer but I'd still be interested in reading about it. Which probably doesn't make sense. I need more tea. I estimate that I'll have the first chapter analysis post of Earth done around April 15 and will plan on posting them every 4-6 weeks subsequently. That's subject to change if the project is more daunting than I think it will be. Of course, I first have to figure out what constitutes a chapter, since they're not labelled as such. *sigh* What kind of tea? :-) Jon _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
Jeffrey wrote: :) I'm currently knee-deep in the Black Company series.. pulpy, gratuitous, but for some reason, I can't stop reading 'em.. On a vaguely related note, has anyone here read Kage Baker's Company novels (_In the Garden of Iden_, _Sky Coyote_ and _Mendoza in Hollywood_)? I have books one and three and I really like the premise of immortal agents collecting goodies for their benefactors in the 24th century. However, rumours abound that she has written seven of these books and might just be doing a Jordan with the main story arc. However, given that the setup she has created means that she can set a book in *any* period between the age of the Neanderthals and the 24th Century, she has a *lot* of room in which to work. Lal GSV Seeking further knowledge ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
Jon wrote: I estimate that I'll have the first chapter analysis post of Earth done around April 15 and will plan on posting them every 4-6 weeks subsequently. That's subject to change if the project is more daunting than I think it will be. Ah, cool. I'd like to read that. I take this means I'll have to go and read the damn thing now. Crap. I have to buy it first. I really should buy less books. I found a forum discussing the works of Stephen Donaldson and there was a really good chapter-by-chapter analysis of the First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Well, they're only on the first book _Lord Foul's Bane_ but it's been an interesting read. :) Of course, I first have to figure out what constitutes a chapter, since they're not labelled as such. *sigh* D'oh! What kind of tea? PG Tips, so Sri Lankan probably. Lal GSV Assam tea ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
Jeffrey wrote: How was it? I've been avoiding Brin lately (gasp!) as the last 2 I read, Sundiver and Practice Effect, I found to be.. well, not my favorite books ever. Not bad, per se, just not so great. Hearing what little I have about KP, I'm worried its an Saturday Night Live book - takes a neat premise and goes too far with it. I enjoyed it. It was a lively thriller with good characters and a decent story. The multiple viewpoints were well done, especially the way in the way they all exhibit the same tendencies at first (since all but one are clones/dittos of the main character) and voice the same thoughts, but then start to develop more individual characteristics as time goes by. The end is, um, a little heavy but I didn't suffer too badly. I know some people were rather disgusted by the last third. YMMV. Lal GSV New Brin Fan ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Miller, Jeffrey wrote: :) I'm currently knee-deep in the Black Company series.. pulpy, gratuitous, but for some reason, I can't stop reading 'em.. I loved the first 5 or so books in Cook's Black Company Series. I really loved how many of the 'evil' characters were actually portrayed in different shades of gray with their own motivations and scheme-ings After that, the series started to go downhill for me, and the last book especially seemed quite rushed in certain ways I won't go into because of spoilers. Overall, though, quite fun to read. But speaking of pulpy and gratuitous - Anyone here read the Honor Harrington series books by David Weber? I've read about 6 so far (of 10) before I needed a hiatus. The rest are part of my stack of 20 waiting-to-be-read books (along with Kiln People and The Transparent Society, to tie this back to the Brin list). -bryon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 10:20 pm, Bryon Daly wrote: But speaking of pulpy and gratuitous - Anyone here read the Honor Harrington series books by David Weber? I've read about 6 so far (of 10) before I needed a hiatus. The rest are part of my stack of 20 waiting-to-be-read books (along with Kiln People and The Transparent Society, to tie this back to the Brin list). I've read them all. I think the last two could have done with some (more) editing. And I can't actually remember the plot of either of them, which wasn't the case for the first eight. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ How long a minute is depends on which side of the bathroom door you're on. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
On 6 Mar 2003 at 23:16, William T Goodall wrote: On Thursday, March 6, 2003, at 10:20 pm, Bryon Daly wrote: But speaking of pulpy and gratuitous - Anyone here read the Honor Harrington series books by David Weber? I've read about 6 so far (of 10) before I needed a hiatus. The rest are part of my stack of 20 waiting-to-be-read books (along with Kiln People and The Transparent Society, to tie this back to the Brin list). I've read them all. I think the last two could have done with some (more) editing. And I can't actually remember the plot of either of them, which wasn't the case for the first eight. I'm a huge Weber fan. I have all the Honourverse books both dead tree and ebook. If anyone wants the ebooks, they were on the CD with came with War of Honor and can be (perfectly legitmately, go Baen!) redistributed. Ashes of Victory wasn't as strong as it might be, but I found War of Honor excellent. Andy Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
- Original Message - From: Lalith Vipulananthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: RE: Question about Spoilers I found a forum discussing the works of Stephen Donaldson and there was a really good chapter-by-chapter analysis of the First Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Well, they're only on the first book _Lord Foul's Bane_ but it's been an interesting read. :) Where is this Lal? I'd like to brush up on my Covenant since a third trilogy might be in the offing. xponent Foamfollower Maru rob There are places I'll remember All my life though some have changed Some forever not for better Some have gone and some remain All these places have their moments With lovers and friends I still can recall Some are dead and some are living In my life I've loved them all ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Question about Spoilers
Rob wrote: Where is this Lal? I'd like to brush up on my Covenant since a third trilogy might be in the offing. http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/index.php Have fun. Most people have chosen names of characters from the two trilogies. See if you can find me. ;) Lal GSV It's not hard ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Julia Thompson wrote: My opinion: I'd say that spoiler space would be polite for 2 years after the last region of the globe got access to the paperback. Anyone who hasn't gotten their mitts on a paperback in 2 years can just avoid the post, assuming the subject accurately reflects the contents of the post. :) (I.e., if you had the opportunity to get the paperback 2 years ago and you still don't have it, I'm personally not going to have much sympathy for anyone whining about spoilers.) So, that means that _Kiln People_ really ought to have spoiler space for awhile yet, and _Startide Rising_ really, really ought not need it, IMO. (This is my personal opinion, and in no way should be construed to reflect the opinion of anyone else unless they explicitly agree with me.) I agree, except I just finished Use of Weapons and if anyone had spilled the ending of that one without spoiler space it would have, well, spoiled it quite a bit. I think that there is a degree to which certain spoilers should have warnings no matter how old they are, the end of UoW being a case in point. Oh, and by the way it was an excellent read. I didn't find it as dark as some had made it sound, but it definitely portrayed the Culture in a somewhat different light. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Doug Pensinger wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: My opinion: I'd say that spoiler space would be polite for 2 years after the last region of the globe got access to the paperback. Anyone who hasn't gotten their mitts on a paperback in 2 years can just avoid the post, assuming the subject accurately reflects the contents of the post. :) (I.e., if you had the opportunity to get the paperback 2 years ago and you still don't have it, I'm personally not going to have much sympathy for anyone whining about spoilers.) So, that means that _Kiln People_ really ought to have spoiler space for awhile yet, and _Startide Rising_ really, really ought not need it, IMO. (This is my personal opinion, and in no way should be construed to reflect the opinion of anyone else unless they explicitly agree with me.) I agree, except I just finished Use of Weapons and if anyone had spilled the ending of that one without spoiler space it would have, well, spoiled it quite a bit. I think that there is a degree to which certain spoilers should have warnings no matter how old they are, the end of UoW being a case in point. I was thinking more in terms of books by Brin, which were the only ones mentioned in the post I was responding to. I'd prefer spoiler warnings for UoW, myself, as I haven't read that yet. :) If I'm posting about books by other authors, I try not to include any spoilers anyway; I prefer to tantalize and see if I can get a couple of other people to read the book for themselves. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Julia Thompson wrote: I was thinking more in terms of books by Brin, which were the only ones mentioned in the post I was responding to. I'd prefer spoiler warnings for UoW, myself, as I haven't read that yet. :) If I'm posting about books by other authors, I try not to include any spoilers anyway; I prefer to tantalize and see if I can get a couple of other people to read the book for themselves. :) Well, I hope I've tantalized you a bit. Doug GSV Use of Weapons ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Question about Spoilers
A lurker friend of mine told me I should stop writing so much about Star Trek and try to get a thread started about a Brin book. While I'll probably keep talking Trek as long as Marvin, Jose, Debbi and others keep replying, I'm certainly interested in talking about Dr. B.'s stuff also. Which brings me to this question: how has the list handled spoiler space in the past? Or more to the point, how to we want to handle it right now? For example, I would probably include spoiler space when talking about _Kiln People_. But if I want to mention a major plot point from _Startide Rising_, should I include spoiler space? At what point do we assume that most people on the list will not require spoiler protection? Two years after publication? Ten years? Twenty? Or should we always use spoiler space just in case? Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question about Spoilers
Reggie Bautista wrote: Which brings me to this question: how has the list handled spoiler space in the past? Or more to the point, how to we want to handle it right now? For example, I would probably include spoiler space when talking about _Kiln People_. But if I want to mention a major plot point from _Startide Rising_, should I include spoiler space? At what point do we assume that most people on the list will not require spoiler protection? Two years after publication? Ten years? Twenty? Or should we always use spoiler space just in case? My opinion: I'd say that spoiler space would be polite for 2 years after the last region of the globe got access to the paperback. Anyone who hasn't gotten their mitts on a paperback in 2 years can just avoid the post, assuming the subject accurately reflects the contents of the post. :) (I.e., if you had the opportunity to get the paperback 2 years ago and you still don't have it, I'm personally not going to have much sympathy for anyone whining about spoilers.) So, that means that _Kiln People_ really ought to have spoiler space for awhile yet, and _Startide Rising_ really, really ought not need it, IMO. (This is my personal opinion, and in no way should be construed to reflect the opinion of anyone else unless they explicitly agree with me.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
