[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Peter writes: > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > experience? > > Tom T opinion: > It would appear that the self appointed Dogma/thought patrol has to > have everything posted in the scientific method in triplicate. Any > personal experience that doesn't follow that self appointed group's > method is immediately jumped on as insubstantial, self aggrandizing > and untrue. It appears that one is definitely guilty until one can > prove ones innocence in triplicate with a fully certified scientific > process that has been read and approved and published in at least > three peer reviewed journals. Any post that does not follow the above > rules of the self appointed thought/dogma patrol then are fair game > for slash, burn and dump invective. From my side they can take a long > walk off a short dock or suck eggs whichever seems most appropriate. > Getting pissed off keeps the boundries firmly in place. Historically we often kill our God-Men and lessen our guilt by worshipping them later. Inertia holds the boundries in place - it's a herd thing. JohnY Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > But my original point is not addressed in your reply. My > point > > > > was not about poeple having experiences and reporting them. My > > > > concern was about people not having experiences, yet still > > > > reporting experiences. > > > > > > That would seem to be your issue, and your problem. > > > I talked earlier about intuition, and the "feeling" > > > "behind" the written words. If you can't feel that, > > > then you are free to react skeptically. But some of > > > us can. > > > > To all posts of eperiences? > > > > And i assume that your "feeling" is just that -- an impression -- > > akin to an opinion. Which may be right, may be wrong. > > Exactly. And the problem with that is? > > Are you afraid of being wrong? > > I don't know about you, but I've learned far more > from my mistakes than from my certanties. I have no problem with opinion or being wrong. I am struggling a little as to why you would ask, since I thought I have made that pretty clear. Oh well, back to the editing board. So It looks like we are agreed, rather circuitously. In general, we may have different opinions as to the validity of some posters their experiences, and/orthier interpreations of them, and the degree of advaidaspeak and or dogmatic reflex in their posts, and we may both be wrong in our opinions, and we both often learn from the corrections of our mistakes, misperceptions and out-moded concepts and dogma when it is pointed out to us. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Peter writes: > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > experience? > > Tom T opinion: > It would appear that the self appointed Dogma/thought patrol has to > have everything posted in the scientific method in triplicate. Any > personal experience that doesn't follow that self appointed group's > method is immediately jumped on as insubstantial, self aggrandizing > and untrue. It appears that one is definitely guilty until one can > prove ones innocence in triplicate with a fully certified scientific > process that has been read and approved and published in at least > three peer reviewed journals. Any post that does not follow the above > rules of the self appointed thought/dogma patrol then are fair game > for slash, burn and dump invective. From my side they can take a long > walk off a short dock or suck eggs whichever seems most appropriate. Yeah, that's it, exactly. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > But my original point is not addressed in your reply. My point > > > was not about poeple having experiences and reporting them. My > > > concern was about people not having experiences, yet still > > > reporting experiences. > > > > That would seem to be your issue, and your problem. > > I talked earlier about intuition, and the "feeling" > > "behind" the written words. If you can't feel that, > > then you are free to react skeptically. But some of > > us can. > > To all posts of eperiences? > > And i assume that your "feeling" is just that -- an impression -- > akin to an opinion. Which may be right, may be wrong. Exactly. And the problem with that is? Are you afraid of being wrong? I don't know about you, but I've learned far more from my mistakes than from my certanties. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > But ok, so its YOU Barry who is that asshole who I think has rocks > for brains NOT jim. :) See, that just shows you how wrong you can be. I have rocks for *balls*, not brains. It costs me more because I have to buy heavy-duty under- wear, and I've had complaints that they're occasionally cold in bed, but they've kept me happily childless this long, so I'm content with them. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Peter writes: > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > experience? > > Tom T opinion: > It would appear that the self appointed Dogma/thought patrol has to Seeing this repost of Peter's comment prompted me to go beyond my impression that there have been no recent posts of "people get so pissed-off if someone talks about some sort of Realization experience?" to actually check the last four days of posts for such. I can't find any. Balls in your court Peter. It appears to be an incorrect impression on your part. But I am certanly open to new insights and changing my view if you can provide a post or two where "people get so pissed-off if someone talks about some sort of Realization experience?" The larger question in my mind, is why you have that impression if there are no such recent posts? My angle of interest is the cognitive science contributions that show that so much of what we "perceive" what we think is "out there" is actually something happening in the internal cognitive apparatus. Since you have been trained to recognize such, and to help others do so [I presume your job invlves some of that - sorry if I presume incorrectly], I find you a great case study, as in "jeez even if a professional who is trained in this and deals in it everyday makes sizable cognitve gaffs, what about the rest of us, we must be doing it even MORE." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
Actually I think it's Bevan. Sal On Dec 16, 2005, at 10:29 AM, Peter wrote: I always think that above is in operation regardless of who says what. You have made a critique of me in the past as coming across as an absolutest and I was surprised I came across this way, but when I read some of my posts, I understood what you were talking about (by the way, I assume this is Akasha, yes?).
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" > > Peter writes: > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > experience? > > Tom T opinion: > It would appear that the self appointed Dogma/thought patrol Does one exist? Or is that simply an impression you have? > has to > have everything posted in the scientific method in triplicate. Ok, now I guess you are just jossing us. haha > Any > personal experience that doesn't follow that self appointed group's > method is immediately jumped on as insubstantial, self aggrandizing > and untrue. That appears to be your impression. My impression is quite the opposite. Recently I have seen no one jump anyones discussion of a poster's personal experience. How odd we can have such different impression! Well I guess we weill just have to leave it to that -- some difference in perception. If on the other hand you are claiming more than an impression, but an actual fact, then please cite some specific examples for those of us that appear to be less perceptive than you and did not catch these recent "slams" on experience posters. Thanks. > It appears that one is definitely guilty until one can > prove ones innocence in triplicate with a fully certified scientific > process that has been read and approved and published in at least > three peer reviewed journals. "Appears" is a great word. The above appears to you. It does not appear to me. To convince me or I assume most observers, you would need too actualy cite some examples, not just impressions. One of the stellar contributions of the cognitive sciences is that much "impression" is indeed not fact but some bias of quirk in the observers head. We all have them. The trick is to be aware such can occure and ask BK style, "Is this true" "Do I really know its true" ... > Any post that does not follow the above > rules of the self appointed thought/dogma patrol then are fair game > for slash, burn and dump invective. Its funny you see destruction, and invective everywhere. I see none. Perhaps I am wearing pollyannaish rose glasses. I will check my perceptions. Or perhaps you woke up on the wrong side of the bed and are a bit cranky this morning. Who knows. Lets both investigate from our own sides. > From my side they can take a long > walk off a short dock or suck eggs whichever seems most appropriate. Ah, such a refreshing view of compassion and love for ones owe Self found everywhere in the infinite expanse of Brahaman -- the pure expression of Bliss. Its so beautiful. And just a point of clarification, you have stated that everything from that mind body known socially as Tom is Brahman staring through "Tom's eyes". Taking your phrase, or I mean Brahman's phrase, "From my side ..." -- does Brahman have a side? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > But my original point is not addressed in your reply. My point > > was not about poeple having experiences and reporting them. My > > concern was about people not having experiences, yet still > > reporting experiences. > > That would seem to be your issue, and your problem. > I talked earlier about intuition, and the "feeling" > "behind" the written words. If you can't feel that, > then you are free to react skeptically. But some of > us can. To all posts of eperiences? And i assume that your "feeling" is just that -- an impression -- akin to an opinion. Which may be right, may be wrong. If on the other hand, you are making universal truth claims based on your intuition, that is another matter all together. I will assume its the former until so advised. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
Peter writes: What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off if someone talks about some sort of Realization experience? Tom T opinion: It would appear that the self appointed Dogma/thought patrol has to have everything posted in the scientific method in triplicate. Any personal experience that doesn't follow that self appointed group's method is immediately jumped on as insubstantial, self aggrandizing and untrue. It appears that one is definitely guilty until one can prove ones innocence in triplicate with a fully certified scientific process that has been read and approved and published in at least three peer reviewed journals. Any post that does not follow the above rules of the self appointed thought/dogma patrol then are fair game for slash, burn and dump invective. From my side they can take a long walk off a short dock or suck eggs whichever seems most appropriate. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > To tell the truth, that's why I replied as I did to > > > > the recent poster who wants people to jump through > > > > hoops to "prove" any claim they make here. IMO, life's > > > > too short to deal with pissants who want "proof" of > > > > subjective experiences. > > > > > > But of course no one recently asked you for any proof of your > > subjective experiences. You are rattling at phantom windmills. > > > > What I recall in recent posts is requests for your assertions of > that > > all religious and spiritual traditions end in the same place. If > you > > want to state that as your personal opinion, fine. But you > appeared to > > be asserting it as some universal truth. What is the problem with > > asking for some support of such a claim? > > Just to clarify, you seem to be talking to Jim, but > who you quoted above is me (Barry, TurquoiseB). > That doesn't really facilitate communication very > well. Opps, sorry. My mistake. My keyboard is acting up this morning -- the cursor is ending up randomly all over the place. I appear to be clipping things I don't mean to. Lame excuse, I know, but true. But its all one Atman shining as samskaras speak among themselves right? What deos it matter in the large scheme of things if its Barry or Jim samskaras? :) But ok, so its YOU Barry who is that asshole who I think has rocks for brains NOT jim. :) Just as long as you embrace your asshole(ness) Like Judy. And if she looks like Natasha (Boris and Natasha) while doing that ... hmmm. ... I see it now .. a set of DVDs "Learn to Embrace your Asshole with Boris and Natasha. -- Adults Only" Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > But my original point is not addressed in your reply. My point > was not about poeple having experiences and reporting them. My > concern was about people not having experiences, yet still > reporting experiences. That would seem to be your issue, and your problem. I talked earlier about intuition, and the "feeling" "behind" the written words. If you can't feel that, then you are free to react skeptically. But some of us can. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > To tell the truth, that's why I replied as I did to > > > the recent poster who wants people to jump through > > > hoops to "prove" any claim they make here. IMO, life's > > > too short to deal with pissants who want "proof" of > > > subjective experiences. > > > But of course no one recently asked you for any proof of your > subjective experiences. You are rattling at phantom windmills. > > What I recall in recent posts is requests for your assertions of that > all religious and spiritual traditions end in the same place. If you > want to state that as your personal opinion, fine. But you appeared to > be asserting it as some universal truth. What is the problem with > asking for some support of such a claim? Just to clarify, you seem to be talking to Jim, but who you quoted above is me (Barry, TurquoiseB). That doesn't really facilitate communication very well. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > > experience? > > Could you be more specific? > Who has gotten pissed-off? > At whose discussion of a Realization experience? > > I have been reading these posts carefully and I have not found that. > Please be specific. Otherwise I must assume it is something inside of you that makes you see such. Peter, taking my own advice to re-read things where there is a difference of "impression", to see if I have misinterpreted or missed something, I re-read the above post. You said it ended with "a passive-aggressive slam." For the life of me I can't see it. Perhaps I could rephrase to make the same point -- focussing on the secon paragraph. "I have been reading these posts carefully and I have not found hostility. Perhaps I am missing something you have picked up on. So please be specific so I can better understand what you are getting at. If you are unable to find such specifics, well, thats ok. It may be similar to what I have found personally in such circumstances when I "think" or "feel" a certain tone or attitude is in a writer's piece -- but then can't find the exact words to make such a case. Pity. It so seemed to be there. In such cases I must conclude its something in my own mind, my own web of cognitive abilites that made me incorectly assume such a tone or bias. If you are unable to point to the specific instances of hostility, I must assume it is something like my personal expereince -- its a small quirk inside of you that makes you see such since it cannot be found on paper." To me the point and general tone are the similar between the two versions. But the latter takes greater explanatory pains. And seems like a discussion two upper crusty Brits in a Gentlemans Club during the Raj. My usual style is more one of greater brevity and directness. But if the latter style suits you better, I will try to pursue such in discussion with you. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Then thats fine. I thought he might be trying to > make a point of > substance. But nothing wrong with saying "It seems > to me that > but thats just my opinion. I could be mistaken." I always think that above is in operation regardless of who says what. You have made a critique of me in the past as coming across as an absolutest and I was surprised I came across this way, but when I read some of my posts, I understood what you were talking about (by the way, I assume this is Akasha, yes?). I think that conviction comes out of the experience. You walk outside and its raining. You come back in and proclaim, "IT"S RAINING!" and proceed to yack about the experience with the absolute conviction of being wet. Now you can use concepts from other people who have proclaimed, "IT"S RAINING" to help understand what this "IT"S RAINING" is all about. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for > Healthy Drug-Free Living. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > So lets try the experiment. No gottcha games here. > > Just list the > > the Experience posts you have in mind, and the > > hostile response you > > have in mind. Lets collectively look at the words > > and see whats there. > > > > > > > > > Some > > > "new" poster wants examples of what I'm referring > > to. > > > I'm not going to engage him because he has decided > > a > > > priori that he and others are not hostile. > > > > Not true. Well, I know my own states which have not > > been hostile. I > > acknowledge that my writing may come across as > > hostile to you or > > perhaps others. I don't see it, but if you can show > > it, I am a quick > > study, I am eager to improve my writing skils and > > curtail unintented > > tones and tudes. > > > > > Then he > > > ends his post with a passive-agressive slam. > > > > See, that is internal Peter. I did not end my post > > with a with a > > passive-agressive slam. I ended my post with > > something YOU INTERPRETED > > AS a slam. I ended the post in the way I did because > > I have seen you > > repeated ignore requests for clarification when you > > are called on an > > issue. > > The next time it occurs I'll point it out. We've done > this dance many times and it seems useless. You will > always claim that you aren't hostile. But if you want > to do this, I will. Great. But why not start with this mornings report of "occurances". Your post alluded to a lot of hostile posts. Can you cite them and the language you find hostile? Just an aside, many of your comments appear based on the past. Could it be you have impressions of past posters, disagreements, etc, that shape or color your PRESENT view of newposts? > > > > > > > I really think you should try this exercise. I think > > it may amaze us > > all. Cite the experience posts you have in mind, and > > the hostile > > response you have in mind. Lets collectively look at > > the words. Why > > the resistance to taking 10 minutes to do so? > > > > > > > There's > > > nothing wrong with being pissed-off, it's just > > that > > > you can't have a normal conversation with someone > > > peppering their posts with all this > > passive-aggressive > > > nonsense. > > > > If you are referring to my posts, again, just cite > > what you feel are > > "peppering their posts with all this > > passive-aggressive > > nonsense." I know the intent of my last post and it > > was not passive > > agressive or hostile. If my style of writing is not > > effective, help me > > to change. If you are interpreting things on the > > paper not intended, > > perhaps you too have room for change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > ~--> > > Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or > > someone you know. > > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > > > ~-> > > > > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Or go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > > and click 'Join This Group!' > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I ask the opposite, and inverted, question of Peter's: why not more > > questioning of experience postings? > > Ask anything you want, any time you want. But don't > get all pissy if the person doesn't feel like replying > to you. Some people like to play word games with their > experiences, and some prefer just to *have* experiences. Thats fine. And post about someones experience might generate a discussion by many -- not including the original poster. But my original point is not addressed in your reply. My point was not about poeple having experiences and reporting them. My concern was about people not having experiences, yet still reporting experiences. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > To tell the truth, that's why I replied as I did to > the recent poster who wants people to jump through > hoops to "prove" any claim they make here. IMO, life's > too short to deal with pissants who want "proof" of > subjective experiences. For me, life's too short to > deal with pissants who want to quibble endlessly over > *opinion*. If they want to quibble over things they > consider verifiable facts, that's their business, as > long as they don't expect me to play their ego-gotcha > games. Well thats cool. I think the issue boils down to opinion vs. an assertion of fact. Perhaps I have mistaken the take on some posts --- which are merely opinion. Opinions are fine, and need no proof. Though, in may be of interest as to the thought processes, logic and understandings the person used to come to that opinion. Seems reasonable to be able to ask such in a polite way. On the other hand, some posts appear (it is subjective), to make some assertions as fact. If indeed that is the case -- and that is the first thing that should be clarified "Is this your opinion, or do you suggest its a fact or universally true?" -- then requests for substantiation are valid. If none are forthcoming, well, the point then defaults to opinion status. The claims folder has to do with these claims, not assertions. A third category, perhaps similar to opinion, is "impression". People regularly report things they see in posts -- that upon my reading the actual words don't appear to be there (my impression). Various impressions by various readers. Thats why if someone asserts an impression, its useful for them to cite examples from the post, as to why they have that impression. Maybe its a good "read", maybe not. Its always good to ask the BK questions (thats my opinion, btw,) "Do I know thats true", "How do I know thats true" ... etc. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Then thats fine. I thought he might be trying to make a point of substance. But nothing wrong with saying "It seems to me that but thats just my opinion. I could be mistaken." Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > To tell the truth, that's why I replied as I did to > > the recent poster who wants people to jump through > > hoops to "prove" any claim they make here. IMO, life's > > too short to deal with pissants who want "proof" of > > subjective experiences. But of course no one recently asked you for any proof of your subjective experiences. You are rattling at phantom windmills. What I recall in recent posts is requests for your assertions of that all religious and spiritual traditions end in the same place. If you want to state that as your personal opinion, fine. But you appeared to be asserting it as some universal truth. What is the problem with asking for some support of such a claim? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Now this is a nice post that someone can respond to, > which I'll do > > > > > > Yes, I tink everyone goes through that process when > > experiences are > > discussed. Though, to my memory, few have been > > discussed recently and > > none have been criticized. Thus the puzzlement about > > Peter's and Jim's > > recent assertions this morning. The assertions seem > > like old snakes > > rattling round in the cage, memories of some past > > scars, not current > > events. > > I get your point. But I still see some of the recent > posts as implicitly hostile. Again the operative words are "I still see". Can you acknowledge the possibility that the hostility that you are seeing is in your head not on the paper. Perhaps you have some old issues with some posters and you see them -- the old issues -- every time the poster writes. Is that at least a possibility? > > > > It is a quandry when someone speaks of their > > Enlightenment Experience, > > and it doesn't ring true. > > It does present a problem. Where do you start to > respond! I like Dana Sawyer's post regarding my posts > regarding enlightenment experiences in another > newsgroup. He said I was lying. I loved it! > > > > Or simply garbles up some > > apparently > > internalized advaitaspeak. That does nothing to > > further knowledge and > > understanding. > > Agree > > > > > Politeness and kindness move one towards no comment, > > just stone > > silence. Not wanting to even raise quite polite and > > civil points > > because they are often backlashed with chilly > > responses, not on the > > point of inquiry, but why the questioner is > > personally fucked up, > > angry, resentful and/or hostile. > > I find it difficult to talk to someone who is > simultaneously being insulting. Am I being insuling in this exchange? If so just point to it Peter. > You appear to miss the point. Personal attacks and citing motives of othes are not adequate, or often even interesting, responses to a point of "fact" - a quesion about some assertion. And stylized example of what often goes on at FFL, IMO: A: The sky is Red B: Can you provide some evidence that the sky is red. A: You only asked becasue you are hostile and angry. B: ok I am sorry you feel that way, but can you provide some evidence that the sky is red? A: Shut up fuck face, you angry, resentful son of a bitch! A second issue, covered in other posts is that what you INTERPRET as hostility and insults are possibly just in your mind, not intended, not on the paper. When reapeated asked for you to cite examples of your sightings of hostility, you never do, to my recollection. Just try it. You may be amazed. But the main point stands. Even if there is hostility, citing that does not answer the request for clarificatipon about a point of fact. For some, its a diversionary tactic. It does not further the flow knowledge. > > > > And yet, silence can at times, by some, be > > interpreted as acquiesence, > > a mild support for what is said. And in cases where > > blather exists, > > the blather continues. > > > > I ask the opposite, and inverted, question of > > Peter's: why not more > > questioning of experience postings? Not hostility > > and personal > > attacks. Those are tedious, immature and silly. But > > it appears fair, > > productive, even noble, and certainly part of the > > spirit of this list > > to ask for clarification of experiences. And to > > raise other points of > > view. To contrast one's own experience or those of > > others with the > > Experience poster's. And to discuss how some > > traditions view such an > > experience -- which may not always be "the highest > > of all things" -- > > and may deflate a sensitive and insecure poster a > > bit. > > Absolutely. There's no problem talking about > experiences at all. I don't see anyone as getting > deflated due to sensitivity. I just don't enjoy the > personal aggression (I know, I know) because another > agenda is being played out. I'd rather talk about what > we're talking about! Yes, lets stick to knowledge and not discussions of what others' states of mind or motives may or may not be. It is not relevant to points of fact of points of concept being discussed. Lets all, if we have a supposition about anothers motives or state of mind, fine. But just keep it to yourself and contine the discussion on points of KNOWLEDGE. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So lets try the experiment. No gottcha games here. > Just list the > the Experience posts you have in mind, and the > hostile response you > have in mind. Lets collectively look at the words > and see whats there. > > > > > Some > > "new" poster wants examples of what I'm referring > to. > > I'm not going to engage him because he has decided > a > > priori that he and others are not hostile. > > Not true. Well, I know my own states which have not > been hostile. I > acknowledge that my writing may come across as > hostile to you or > perhaps others. I don't see it, but if you can show > it, I am a quick > study, I am eager to improve my writing skils and > curtail unintented > tones and tudes. > > > Then he > > ends his post with a passive-agressive slam. > > See, that is internal Peter. I did not end my post > with a with a > passive-agressive slam. I ended my post with > something YOU INTERPRETED > AS a slam. I ended the post in the way I did because > I have seen you > repeated ignore requests for clarification when you > are called on an > issue. The next time it occurs I'll point it out. We've done this dance many times and it seems useless. You will always claim that you aren't hostile. But if you want to do this, I will. > > I really think you should try this exercise. I think > it may amaze us > all. Cite the experience posts you have in mind, and > the hostile > response you have in mind. Lets collectively look at > the words. Why > the resistance to taking 10 minutes to do so? > > > > There's > > nothing wrong with being pissed-off, it's just > that > > you can't have a normal conversation with someone > > peppering their posts with all this > passive-aggressive > > nonsense. > > If you are referring to my posts, again, just cite > what you feel are > "peppering their posts with all this > passive-aggressive > nonsense." I know the intent of my last post and it > was not passive > agressive or hostile. If my style of writing is not > effective, help me > to change. If you are interpreting things on the > paper not intended, > perhaps you too have room for change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or > someone you know. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is > > the > > > > degree of hostility. Why do people get so > > pissed-off > > > > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > > > > experience? > > > > > > Fear, plain and simple. > > > > I'd agree with fear in the sense of "fear of > > losing one's self (small s)." When someone > > writes of an experience they have had, I > > usually get a non-verbal "hit" on what they've > > written that has nothing to do with the words. > > As Vaj has mentioned with regard to "Advaitaspeak," > > *anyone* can talk the talk. What I'm looking for > > is something that underlies the words that con- > > vinces me that the experience the person is > > talking about really happened. That "something," > > for me, can only be felt intuitively. > > > > I guess my point is that I think *everyone* does > > the same thing, and feels intuitively which of > > the experiences discussed here are real and which > > might not be. And it's that very intuition that > > scares the shit out of them when they feel a real > > one. > > So you see what I'm talking about when I say some of > the responses are hostile? Your posts aren't hostile > so I'll ask you because some of these posters really > come across the key implied word here is "to ME" the posts come across to Peter that way. And maybe to al. Maybe not. >as angry in either a direct or a passive > way. What strikes me as odd is that they claim they're > not angry at all. Am I going mad or something? Well, it is a hypothesis, in the sense that so many things can color our perception. So lets see. Why not follow my simple request and cite the experience posts you have in mind, and the hostile response you have in mind. Lets collectively look at the words and see if hostiilty lunges out. I count count the times I have THOUGHT someone made such and suc point with such and such chip onhis shoulder. Only to ctart writing a resposne, using his OWN words as PROOF, to find -- poof - it was not in his words but my mind. And perhaps a post may seem to be hostile -- and was just careless writing of the poster, not intenended as hostility. A good set of feed back for him. So lets try the experiment. No gottcha games here. Just list the the Experience posts you have in mind, and the hostile response you have in mind. Lets collectively look at the words and see whats there. > Some > "new" poster wants examples of what I'm referring to. > I'm not going to engage him because he has decided a > priori that he and others are not hostile. Not true. Well, I know my own states which have not been hostile. I acknowledge that my writing may come across as hostile to you or perhaps others. I don't see it, but if you can show it, I am a quick study, I am eager to improve my writing skils and curtail unintented tones and tudes. > Then he > ends his post with a passive-agressive slam. See, that is internal Peter. I did not end my post with a with a passive-agressive slam. I ended my post with something YOU INTERPRETED AS a slam. I ended the post in the way I did because I have seen you repeated ignore requests for clarification when you are called on an issue. I really think you should try this exercise. I think it may amaze us all. Cite the experience posts you have in mind, and the hostile response you have in mind. Lets collectively look at the words. Why the resistance to taking 10 minutes to do so? > There's > nothing wrong with being pissed-off, it's just that > you can't have a normal conversation with someone > peppering their posts with all this passive-aggressive > nonsense. If you are referring to my posts, again, just cite what you feel are "peppering their posts with all this passive-aggressive nonsense." I know the intent of my last post and it was not passive agressive or hostile. If my style of writing is not effective, help me to change. If you are interpreting things on the paper not intended, perhaps you too have room for change. > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Fear, plain and simple. > > > > > > I'd agree with fear in the sense of "fear of > > > losing one's self (small s)." When someone > > > writes of an experience they have had, I > > > usually get a non-verbal "hit" on what they've > > > written that has nothing to do with the words. > > > As Vaj has mentioned with regard to "Advaitaspeak," > > > *anyone* can talk the talk. What I'm looking for > > > is something that underlies the words that con- > > > vinces me that the experience the person is > > > talking about really happened. That "something," > > > for me, can only be felt intuitively. > > > > > > I guess my point is that I think *everyone* does > > > the same thing, and feels intuitively which of > > > the experiences discussed here are real and which > > > might not be. And it's that very intuition that > > > scares the shit out of them when they feel a real > > > one. > > > > So you see what I'm talking about when I say some of > > the responses are hostile? Your posts aren't hostile > > so I'll ask you because some of these posters really > > come across as angry in either a direct or a passive > > way. What strikes me as odd is that they claim they're > > not angry at all. Am I going mad or something? > > I don't think so. I feel a great deal of anger > behind the responses to someone's honestly-expressed > description of a personal experience, and I feel it > often. And in my opinion, that anger tends to come > from those who (pardon me being explicit here, but > it's the truth) have only read about or heard about > such experiences, and never had them themselves. > > > Some > > "new" poster wants examples of what I'm referring to. > > I'm not going to engage him because he has decided a > > priori that he and others are not hostile. Then he > > ends his post with a passive-agressive slam. There's > > nothing wrong with being pissed-off, it's just that > > you can't have a normal conversation with someone > > peppering their posts with all this passive-aggressive > > nonsense. > > I couldn't agree more. > > To tell the truth, that's why I replied as I did to > the recent poster who wants people to jump through > hoops to "prove" any claim they make here. IMO, life's > too short to deal with pissants who want "proof" of > subjective experiences. For me, life's too short to > deal with pissants who want to quibble endlessly over > *opinion*. If they want to quibble over things they > consider verifiable facts, that's their business, as > long as they don't expect me to play their ego-gotcha > games. > Right on Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now this is a nice post that someone can respond to, which I'll do > > Yes, I tink everyone goes through that process when > experiences are > discussed. Though, to my memory, few have been > discussed recently and > none have been criticized. Thus the puzzlement about > Peter's and Jim's > recent assertions this morning. The assertions seem > like old snakes > rattling round in the cage, memories of some past > scars, not current > events. I get your point. But I still see some of the recent posts as implicitly hostile. > > It is a quandry when someone speaks of their > Enlightenment Experience, > and it doesn't ring true. It does present a problem. Where do you start to respond! I like Dana Sawyer's post regarding my posts regarding enlightenment experiences in another newsgroup. He said I was lying. I loved it! > Or simply garbles up some > apparently > internalized advaitaspeak. That does nothing to > further knowledge and > understanding. Agree > > Politeness and kindness move one towards no comment, > just stone > silence. Not wanting to even raise quite polite and > civil points > because they are often backlashed with chilly > responses, not on the > point of inquiry, but why the questioner is > personally fucked up, > angry, resentful and/or hostile. I find it difficult to talk to someone who is simultaneously being insulting. We've gone a few rounds with this, Aksha, and can't see eye-to-eye on it. We respect one another but will always get stuck on this I'm-not-angry-yes-you-are point. When you back off what I see as aggression-and you see as playful banter, I respond. > > And yet, silence can at times, by some, be > interpreted as acquiesence, > a mild support for what is said. And in cases where > blather exists, > the blather continues. > > I ask the opposite, and inverted, question of > Peter's: why not more > questioning of experience postings? Not hostility > and personal > attacks. Those are tedious, immature and silly. But > it appears fair, > productive, even noble, and certainly part of the > spirit of this list > to ask for clarification of experiences. And to > raise other points of > view. To contrast one's own experience or those of > others with the > Experience poster's. And to discuss how some > traditions view such an > experience -- which may not always be "the highest > of all things" -- > and may deflate a sensitive and insecure poster a > bit. Absolutely. There's no problem talking about experiences at all. I don't see anyone as getting deflated due to sensitivity. I just don't enjoy the personal aggression (I know, I know) because another agenda is being played out. I'd rather talk about what we're talking about! > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? > Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I ask the opposite, and inverted, question of Peter's: why not more > questioning of experience postings? Ask anything you want, any time you want. But don't get all pissy if the person doesn't feel like replying to you. Some people like to play word games with their experiences, and some prefer just to *have* experiences. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
> > > Fear, plain and simple. > > > > I'd agree with fear in the sense of "fear of > > losing one's self (small s)." When someone > > writes of an experience they have had, I > > usually get a non-verbal "hit" on what they've > > written that has nothing to do with the words. > > As Vaj has mentioned with regard to "Advaitaspeak," > > *anyone* can talk the talk. What I'm looking for > > is something that underlies the words that con- > > vinces me that the experience the person is > > talking about really happened. That "something," > > for me, can only be felt intuitively. > > > > I guess my point is that I think *everyone* does > > the same thing, and feels intuitively which of > > the experiences discussed here are real and which > > might not be. And it's that very intuition that > > scares the shit out of them when they feel a real > > one. > > So you see what I'm talking about when I say some of > the responses are hostile? Your posts aren't hostile > so I'll ask you because some of these posters really > come across as angry in either a direct or a passive > way. What strikes me as odd is that they claim they're > not angry at all. Am I going mad or something? I don't think so. I feel a great deal of anger behind the responses to someone's honestly-expressed description of a personal experience, and I feel it often. And in my opinion, that anger tends to come from those who (pardon me being explicit here, but it's the truth) have only read about or heard about such experiences, and never had them themselves. > Some > "new" poster wants examples of what I'm referring to. > I'm not going to engage him because he has decided a > priori that he and others are not hostile. Then he > ends his post with a passive-agressive slam. There's > nothing wrong with being pissed-off, it's just that > you can't have a normal conversation with someone > peppering their posts with all this passive-aggressive > nonsense. I couldn't agree more. To tell the truth, that's why I replied as I did to the recent poster who wants people to jump through hoops to "prove" any claim they make here. IMO, life's too short to deal with pissants who want "proof" of subjective experiences. For me, life's too short to deal with pissants who want to quibble endlessly over *opinion*. If they want to quibble over things they consider verifiable facts, that's their business, as long as they don't expect me to play their ego-gotcha games. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When someone > writes of an experience they have had, I > usually get a non-verbal "hit" on what they've > written that has nothing to do with the words. > As Vaj has mentioned with regard to "Advaitaspeak," > *anyone* can talk the talk. What I'm looking for > is something that underlies the words that con- > vinces me that the experience the person is > talking about really happened. That "something," > for me, can only be felt intuitively. > > I guess my point is that I think *everyone* does > the same thing, and feels intuitively which of > the experiences discussed here are real and which > might not be. Yes, I tink everyone goes through that process when experiences are discussed. Though, to my memory, few have been discussed recently and none have been criticized. Thus the puzzlement about Peter's and Jim's recent assertions this morning. The assertions seem like old snakes rattling round in the cage, memories of some past scars, not current events. It is a quandry when someone speaks of their Enlightenment Experience, and it doesn't ring true. Or simply garbles up some apparently internalized advaitaspeak. That does nothing to further knowledge and understanding. Politeness and kindness move one towards no comment, just stone silence. Not wanting to even raise quite polite and civil points because they are often backlashed with chilly responses, not on the point of inquiry, but why the questioner is personally fucked up, angry, resentful and/or hostile. And yet, silence can at times, by some, be interpreted as acquiesence, a mild support for what is said. And in cases where blather exists, the blather continues. I ask the opposite, and inverted, question of Peter's: why not more questioning of experience postings? Not hostility and personal attacks. Those are tedious, immature and silly. But it appears fair, productive, even noble, and certainly part of the spirit of this list to ask for clarification of experiences. And to raise other points of view. To contrast one's own experience or those of others with the Experience poster's. And to discuss how some traditions view such an experience -- which may not always be "the highest of all things" -- and may deflate a sensitive and insecure poster a bit. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is > the > > > degree of hostility. Why do people get so > pissed-off > > > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > > > experience? > > > > Fear, plain and simple. > > I'd agree with fear in the sense of "fear of > losing one's self (small s)." When someone > writes of an experience they have had, I > usually get a non-verbal "hit" on what they've > written that has nothing to do with the words. > As Vaj has mentioned with regard to "Advaitaspeak," > *anyone* can talk the talk. What I'm looking for > is something that underlies the words that con- > vinces me that the experience the person is > talking about really happened. That "something," > for me, can only be felt intuitively. > > I guess my point is that I think *everyone* does > the same thing, and feels intuitively which of > the experiences discussed here are real and which > might not be. And it's that very intuition that > scares the shit out of them when they feel a real > one. So you see what I'm talking about when I say some of the responses are hostile? Your posts aren't hostile so I'll ask you because some of these posters really come across as angry in either a direct or a passive way. What strikes me as odd is that they claim they're not angry at all. Am I going mad or something? Some "new" poster wants examples of what I'm referring to. I'm not going to engage him because he has decided a priori that he and others are not hostile. Then he ends his post with a passive-agressive slam. There's nothing wrong with being pissed-off, it's just that you can't have a normal conversation with someone peppering their posts with all this passive-aggressive nonsense. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? > Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
You're right. It's just idle speculation. --- braaahmaan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >> > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is > the > > > degree of hostility. Why do people get so > pissed-off > > > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > > > experience? > > > > > Fear, plain and simple. > > > If this is so, could you please cite examples, as > asked of Peter. > > Could you be more specific? > Who has gotten pissed-off? > At whose discussion of a Realization experience? > > I have been reading these posts carefully and I have > not found that. > Please be specific. Otherwise I must assume it is > something inside of > you that makes you see such. > > Since you go beyond Peter and have a presummed > method to accurately > diagnose motivations, could you please explain such > methodology for > the persons you cite for the above question. > > Since many posters here when asked for clarification > of assertions > apparently, what is the slang word, ah yes, "fold", > I will assume that > no resposne, or a diversional response not > addressing the quesion > means that you have no substantiation, perhaps just > idle speculation. > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? > Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > > > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > > > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > > > experience? > > > > Fear, plain and simple. > > I'd agree with fear in the sense of "fear of > losing one's self (small s)." Exactly. When someone > writes of an experience they have had, I > usually get a non-verbal "hit" on what they've > written that has nothing to do with the words. > As Vaj has mentioned with regard to "Advaitaspeak," > *anyone* can talk the talk. What I'm looking for > is something that underlies the words that con- > vinces me that the experience the person is > talking about really happened. That "something," > for me, can only be felt intuitively. > > I guess my point is that I think *everyone* does > the same thing, and feels intuitively which of > the experiences discussed here are real and which > might not be. And it's that very intuition that > scares the shit out of them when they feel a real > one. > You put that well. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > > experience? > > Fear, plain and simple. I'd agree with fear in the sense of "fear of losing one's self (small s)." When someone writes of an experience they have had, I usually get a non-verbal "hit" on what they've written that has nothing to do with the words. As Vaj has mentioned with regard to "Advaitaspeak," *anyone* can talk the talk. What I'm looking for is something that underlies the words that con- vinces me that the experience the person is talking about really happened. That "something," for me, can only be felt intuitively. I guess my point is that I think *everyone* does the same thing, and feels intuitively which of the experiences discussed here are real and which might not be. And it's that very intuition that scares the shit out of them when they feel a real one. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > > experience? > > > Fear, plain and simple. If this is so, could you please cite examples, as asked of Peter. Could you be more specific? Who has gotten pissed-off? At whose discussion of a Realization experience? I have been reading these posts carefully and I have not found that. Please be specific. Otherwise I must assume it is something inside of you that makes you see such. Since you go beyond Peter and have a presummed method to accurately diagnose motivations, could you please explain such methodology for the persons you cite for the above question. Since many posters here when asked for clarification of assertions apparently, what is the slang word, ah yes, "fold", I will assume that no resposne, or a diversional response not addressing the quesion means that you have no substantiation, perhaps just idle speculation. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > experience? Could you be more specific? Who has gotten pissed-off? At whose discussion of a Realization experience? I have been reading these posts carefully and I have not found that. Please be specific. Otherwise I must assume it is something inside of you that makes you see such. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > --- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > However, it is possible that the "logic" of one > > state of > > consciousness may not be able to evaluate the logic > > of another. Skip > > Alexiander used to make an analogy between > > enlightenment and Piaget's > > stages of development. > > > > You can *explain* that tall, thin glasses and short, > > fat cylinders > > cups hold the same amount of water all day long to a > > very young child > > and they won't accept it as making sense, even when > > you show > > them. "It's some kind of trick" was my own > > comment... > > I think Skip (too bad he's dead, I liked him) got it > right using Piaget's stages of cognitive development > as a model to understand waking state cognition vs > cognition in Realization. As Piaget points out there > is a qualitative difference between the cognitive > stages that can not be bridged (at least from earlier > to later). There is such a foundational shift in > self/world from waking state to Realization that it > becomes very difficult to explain the "experience" of > Realization. It is almost always misunderstood because > many of the concepts of Realization have no meaning in > waking state, but the waking state mind doesn't know > that. I always talk about No-Self and try to explain > it, but I get all sorts of flack because it just > doesn't make any sense in waking state. I realize, you > just can't make an end-run around someone's state of > consciousness/experiencing. Kind of like Tookie > William's sociopathic personality structure making it > absolutely impossible for him to admit to the murders > he commited because it meant that he would loose > control. He'd rather die than loose manipulative > control. People see the world as they are and have a > difficult time seeing the world as they aren't (duh!). > What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the > degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off > if someone talks about some sort of Realization > experience? > Fear, plain and simple. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > However, it is possible that the "logic" of one > state of > consciousness may not be able to evaluate the logic > of another. Skip > Alexiander used to make an analogy between > enlightenment and Piaget's > stages of development. > > You can *explain* that tall, thin glasses and short, > fat cylinders > cups hold the same amount of water all day long to a > very young child > and they won't accept it as making sense, even when > you show > them. "It's some kind of trick" was my own > comment... I think Skip (too bad he's dead, I liked him) got it right using Piaget's stages of cognitive development as a model to understand waking state cognition vs cognition in Realization. As Piaget points out there is a qualitative difference between the cognitive stages that can not be bridged (at least from earlier to later). There is such a foundational shift in self/world from waking state to Realization that it becomes very difficult to explain the "experience" of Realization. It is almost always misunderstood because many of the concepts of Realization have no meaning in waking state, but the waking state mind doesn't know that. I always talk about No-Self and try to explain it, but I get all sorts of flack because it just doesn't make any sense in waking state. I realize, you just can't make an end-run around someone's state of consciousness/experiencing. Kind of like Tookie William's sociopathic personality structure making it absolutely impossible for him to admit to the murders he commited because it meant that he would loose control. He'd rather die than loose manipulative control. People see the world as they are and have a difficult time seeing the world as they aren't (duh!). What strikes me as odd in these discussions is the degree of hostility. Why do people get so pissed-off if someone talks about some sort of Realization experience? > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or > someone you know. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Dec 15, 2005, at 7:34 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > >> > >> You seem to approach Realization as some sort of > >> intellectual exercise. You seek conceptual consistancy > >> and coherence like it was some sort of waking state > >> intellectual product. > >> > > > > Why the surprise? That is exactly how it has been > > presented, by the TM organization and other spiritual > > traditions, for centuries. > > Millennia. > > Each darshana has it's own internal logic. If knowledge is structured > in consciousness then each darshana/View relating to a specific state > of consciousness will be unique but appropriately descriptive of that > state. It's fashionable, esp. among paths that are incomplete or > false paths to suggest otherwise. Shantideva put it nicely when he > opined "View determines Fruit." Yum. > However, it is possible that the "logic" of one state of consciousness may not be able to evaluate the logic of another. Skip Alexiander used to make an analogy between enlightenment and Piaget's stages of development. You can *explain* that tall, thin glasses and short, fat cylinders cups hold the same amount of water all day long to a very young child and they won't accept it as making sense, even when you show them. "It's some kind of trick" was my own comment... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
On Dec 15, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Vaj wrote: Each darshana has it's own internal logic. If knowledge is structured in consciousness then each darshana/View relating to a specific state of consciousness will be unique but appropriately descriptive of that state. It's fashionable, esp. among paths that are incomplete or false paths to suggest otherwise. Shantideva put it nicely when he opined "View determines Fruit." Yum. Could views or darshanas then specialize? One darshana for quickness of attainment, one for completeness, one for easier life in relative creation? One flat, one textured? You forgot corduroy :-).There are definitely ones that are faster than others. One of the reasons it's great to have an ishta/yidam/personal deity is that it makes life in the relative much easier. Both Hindus and Buddhist rely heavily on these--for both attainment and relative boons. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- Anonymousff wrote: > > If on the otherhand, you beleive Dr. Stuphens points are wrong and > you > > are making universal claims about all others' experiences, then the > > follow-up post to this on "Cultism and Free Seekers" has more > > importance. It would confirm my worst, though barely ever dwelt on > > fears about you Tom, that if holding such a position, you would be > a > > cultist carving out your own creed with an absolutist sense of > > universal Truth for all, based solely on your own personal > experience > > (as grand as that may be.) > Careful or you will succeed only in tying yourself into a > pretzel. I WISH. I wish I could get into some of the pretzal asana poses I used to, in my teens and twenties. Oh well, the Wheel of Time moves on. But thanks for the good wishes. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- Vaj wrote: > > Each darshana has it's own internal logic. If knowledge is structured > in consciousness then each darshana/View relating to a specific state > of consciousness will be unique but appropriately descriptive of that > state. It's fashionable, esp. among paths that are incomplete or > false paths to suggest otherwise. Shantideva put it nicely when he > opined "View determines Fruit." Yum. Could views or darshanas then specialize? One darshana for quickness of attainment, one for completeness, one for easier life in relative creation? One flat, one textured? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" > > > The young lady in question said it was her > > experience that her mind was never going to figure it out. Not Now. > > Not ever. > > Sorry, I misread that very last part of the letter. I thought you were > commenting that "her mind was never going to figure it out. Not Now. > Not ever. " Sorry. > > That one small misreading however does not change the main point of > the post. > > I quoted the following, and suggested support for its validity. > > = > All valid observations and insights that you need to > temper your own experience with, not deconstruct the > validity of another's experience. You can only talk > about what you experience, not another. And certainly > don't expect social consensus with someone like MMY. > Your mind is never going to get him. Never, ever. > Amen. DR PS > > == > > Your post appeared to contradict this, that you were not just speaking > of your own eperience but making unversal claims as to all others' > experiences. If I misudnderstood this too, aplologies. > > > The writer looking out through these eyes is that Brahman. > > What has been written is the experience of life lived. It may not be > > your experience if you are real attached to that I you keep inserting > > in someones elses letter. > > > However, if I did misunderstand your position, and now it is clarified > that you only speak for your own experiences, I fail to see your > reason for disturbance about my stating "perhaps what Tom meant to say > was ..." and as an interesing exercise in tone, creating an > alternative text, recasting your post interms of your experience and > not universal claims about all others' experiences. I would think you > would say, upon reading the alternative way of treating the matter > "yes, that is all I meant, that I am describing my own experiences, > not making unversal claims about others'." > > If on the otherhand, you beleive Dr. Stuphens points are wrong and you > are making universal claims about all others' experiences, then the > follow-up post to this on "Cultism and Free Seekers" has more > importance. It would confirm my worst, though barely ever dwelt on > fears about you Tom, that if holding such a position, you would be a > cultist carving out your own creed with an absolutist sense of > universal Truth for all, based solely on your own personal experience > (as grand as that may be.) > Careful Akasha, or you will succeed only in tying yourself into a pretzel. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > On Dec 14, 2005, at 8:36 PM, anonymousff wrote: > > > > > > > > To me, the latter is far more effective and inviting. And it doesn't > > > have heavy-handedness of cultish procliamations "this is the way it > > > is, period. This interprestation of reality is the only valid one. > > > period. And it is known by means way beyond you. So just take it > > > without questioning." > > > > One of the reasons an enlightened being will typically not talk about > > enlightenment or even their own enlightenment is because this is, > > except for some generalities, of little help in awakening the true > > state of enlightenment in others. In other words, it's a very > > inefficient way to introduce that state (either temporarily or > > permanently) in students. > > > > It's interesting the culture that has developed in the west from the > > satsangs of Ramana, Nisargadatta and Papaji. It's nothing like the > > sadhanas that lead them to the non-dual state in the first place. > > Ramana was a devotee of Kali who had numerous non-dual sadhanas. But > > he did not teach that to his student (that I am aware of). And > > Nisargadatta had a Nath guru who undoubtedly taught him some great > > teaching which lead to his ripening and liberation. But he also would > > not even talk of these teachings in any detail. They gave no methods > > for the masses that flocked to them like the ones they themselves > > used. But laughingly, those who emulate their examples merely parody > > there darshans as if that will do it. It would be laughable if it > > wasn't so sad. Even Papaji said none of his students received his > > final teaching--the final stroke. They were just leeches. But those > > who tasted--glimpsed--the View of non-duality abruptly claimed it as > > their own. And then they declared satsangs of their own. And they > > declared themselves enlightened on their own...even after people like > > Papaji told them, no, sorry. > > > > It's like the old saying 'those who know, don't say; those who say, > > don't know.' > > > > Worth remembering. > > > > The self-proclamation part has always struck me as odd. Linked to the > absolutist interpretations of what IT IS. As if there is some > insecurity. THIS has to be IT. And odd that there are strong mandates > of how IT can be spoken of. And how IT cannot. And what one can > understand and what one cannot. > > And if anyone is experiencing Effulgence, a seemingly endless flow of > liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is dumb), constant > wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, loss of > possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and things), compassion that > seems to be rooted at the core of everything, a limitless sense of > wonder -- and irony, a not so worried view of "pending disasters", a > not so impressed view of pending sucesses, then wonderful. Why not > speak of these things. Why speak in nebulous labels of "liberation, > awakening, and enlightenment"? Whose liberation, whose awakening? So > many paths, so many traditions make so many distinctions. Lots of > trail markers on this hike. Why be so anxious to claim the pinnacle. > Why not just claim, if claims are needed, "I am hiking, and its fun". > (oops, sorry "the body is hiking" > > > (And I mean experience not in the sense of "I see the flower" and this > "I experience it", but in the sense of "Consciousness Groking", > > And the process of self-proclamation, what a concept. Someone reads a > book and says "I GET that! I must be enlightened." "hm, they say here > no-self is enlightenment. I have searched high and low and cannot find > an ego. Ergo I am enlightened." Yet so many self-proclaimed > enlightened, even here on this list, but more so else where, directly > contradict each other. > > Sure the indescribable can be approached from different angles. But > its odd when A says "There is absolutely no ego" and B says, "of > course there is an ego, you are insane to think there isn't", and C > says "well, there is an ego, but it finds its proper role as servant, > not master" and D says "You are a fool to try to understand this > paradox of ego, it is Brahman, it is confusion" and E says "well, if > you take this conic section and slice it, its clear the ego is an > elipse with 16 dancing golden elves who are really the ashwins." > Perhaps they each went to a different Satsang, or read a different book. > > Its odd too people claim labels (enlightenemnt, awakening, > liberation", and not specific "attributes" of such. Its as if the > label is a smoke screen for "all attributes". But few are willng to > proclaim specific attributes and discuss in detail. Which if the > purpose is helping others, to promote insight and understand
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > And two, it is a healthy thing to do in speaking about it > > [enlightenment] as if it is just another experience. Because it > > is...just...another...experience. > > > > And yet so many disagree that it is an experience (if that implies > an > > experiencer) and so many disagree that it is not special. > > > > I am trying hard to stay away from the 'specialness' of it, because > I think that causes a lot of confusion in a seeker's mind about what > it is, and the (im)possiblity of attainment. It certainly did for me. > > > So many distinct views of enlightenemnt, it makes on pause for a > > moment to wonder if maybe some are speaking of different things. > > Yes, the enlightened speak about enlightenment. The almost > enlightened imagine enlightenment, colored by their almost > enlightenment. > > > Its such a joy that in this age of enlightenment everyone seems > free > > and joyous to define enlightenment any way they think is "neat" and > > then claim it. Sort of like drawing circles, a target, around an > arrow > > you already shot. On the broadside of the barn. While the fat lady > > sings. Its such a joy. > > Does sarcasm really assist this discussion? > > > Cake anyone? > > Not all humor is sarcasm. I didn't intend it as sarcasm, sorry if you interpreted it that way and disturbed you. It rolled off my pen more as silliness. A bit of lightness to end the evening with. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > And two, it is a healthy thing to do in speaking about it > [enlightenment] as if it is just another experience. Because it > is...just...another...experience. > > And yet so many disagree that it is an experience (if that implies an > experiencer) and so many disagree that it is not special. I am trying hard to stay away from the 'specialness' of it, because I think that causes a lot of confusion in a seeker's mind about what it is, and the (im)possiblity of attainment. It certainly did for me. > So many distinct views of enlightenemnt, it makes on pause for a > moment to wonder if maybe some are speaking of different things. Yes, the enlightened speak about enlightenment. The almost enlightened imagine enlightenment, colored by their almost enlightenment. > Its such a joy that in this age of enlightenment everyone seems free > and joyous to define enlightenment any way they think is "neat" and > then claim it. Sort of like drawing circles, a target, around an arrow > you already shot. On the broadside of the barn. While the fat lady > sings. Its such a joy. Does sarcasm really assist this discussion? > Cake anyone? > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
You don't seem t be a fellow who parctices what he preaches. = All valid observations and insights that you need to temper your own experience with, not deconstruct the validity of another's experience. You can only talk about what you experience, not another. And certainly don't expect social consensus with someone like MMY. Your mind is never going to get him. Never, ever. Amen. DR PS == And yet you deconstruct my intellectual understandtings, motives and experiences. You may best be suited to taking your own advice and doing such to your own eperiences, not others. Aside from your imputing motives, rather crudely I might add, you have suggeted a theory as to why so many people report quite different things in their self-proclaimed state of enlightenment. I suggest another theory, perhaps closer to Ochams Razor: the various self-proclaimed liberated are experiencing different things and thus describing it diferently. And/or in some caes, simply parroting what they have read or heard others say. While I acknowledged that differences are expected when the Indescribable is described, parallel to your point that "the "difference" is more the result of different minds/culture expressing that which is outside of expression", I went on to say that it is simply odd when some express things that are directly contradictory "there is no ego", "there is an ego". Such a contradiction is far beyond cultural differences as I am sure we can agree. Thus I favor my hypothesis over yours. But it raises an interesting point. If you hold that directly contradictory statements about enlightenment are valid, then it seems anything could be said about it. Thus what is the value of discussion orexposition? Its all valid: "Enlightenment is a red popsicle" "no enlightenement is an orange and purple giraffe." "Enlightenment is dreaming of sugar plums and dancing rag dolls full of glee" "Liberation is arguing about what liberation is" "Liberation is Liberace". The Gita and Tropic of Cancer are allequally valid expositions of IT. Is that your view, that all statements, contradictory or not, are all vaild statements about enlightenment? If not, why do yuo argue that statements such as "there is an ego" and "there is not ego" are valid and just "cultural differences? Again, I am quite bafled by your logic and understandings. You ask, "Also, why the hostility?" Is that a reference to world affairs. I missed the segue. If by some small chance yo are actually refering to my post, I am baffled (again) by your statements. Please point to any hostility. I have reread my post and find none. Its more a late night reflective meandering, but hostility? Or is that the reaction you got upon reading something that disturbed you? You refer to my experiences. I reference them obliquley. "anyone who s experiencing Effulgence, a seemingly endless flow of liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is dumb), constant wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, loss of possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and things), compassion that seems to be rooted at the core of everything, a limitless sense of wonder -- and irony, a not so worried view of "pending disasters", a not so impressed view of pending sucesses, then wonderful." These are my experiences. You are right, they don't meet my conceptual definitions of enlightenment for I have none. In my post I was simply suggestng that claiming labels is just as superficial and maningless as it sounds -- something plastic and cheap that a dynamo laberler could make. Talking about various concrete experiences makes a lot more sense to me. Not to you too? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You seem to approach Realization as some sort of > intellectual exercise. You seek conceptual consistancy > and coherence like it was some sort of waking state > intellectual product. You're not going to find that. > While there is comminality to realization, there is > also "difference". The "difference" is more the result > of different minds/culture expressing that which is > outside of expression. Also, why the hostility? It > seems that people who talk about enlightenment > experiences that don't meet your conceptual definition > get you angry in some way. Is that right? > > --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > The self-proclamation part has always struck me as > > odd. Linked to the > > absolutist interpretations of what IT IS. As if > > there is some > > insecurity. THIS has to be IT. And odd that there > > are strong mandates > > of how IT can be spoken of. And how IT cannot. And > > what one can > > understand and what one cannot. > > > > And if anyone is experiencing Effulgence, a > > seemingly endless flow of > > liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is > > dumb), constant > > wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, > > loss of > > possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and > > things), compassion th
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > You seem to approach Realization as some sort of > > intellectual exercise. You seek conceptual consistancy > > and coherence like it was some sort of waking state > > intellectual product. > > Why the surprise? That is exactly how it has been > presented, by the TM organization and other spiritual > traditions, for centuries. Actually I've never encountered a spiritual tradition, including MMY's teaching, which doesn't insist that enlightenment is ultimately beyond coherent expression. Have you? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
On Dec 15, 2005, at 7:34 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: You seem to approach Realization as some sort of intellectual exercise. You seek conceptual consistancy and coherence like it was some sort of waking state intellectual product. Why the surprise? That is exactly how it has been presented, by the TM organization and other spiritual traditions, for centuries. Millennia.Each darshana has it's own internal logic. If knowledge is structured in consciousness then each darshana/View relating to a specific state of consciousness will be unique but appropriately descriptive of that state. It's fashionable, esp. among paths that are incomplete or false paths to suggest otherwise. Shantideva put it nicely when he opined "View determines Fruit." Yum. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
On Dec 15, 2005, at 12:53 AM, anonymousff wrote:The self-proclamation part has always struck me as odd. Linked to the absolutist interpretations of what IT IS. As if there is some insecurity. THIS has to be IT. And odd that there are strong mandates of how IT can be spoken of. And how IT cannot. And what one can understand and what one cannot. And if anyone is experiencing Effulgence, a seemingly endless flow of liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is dumb), constant wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, loss of possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and things), compassion that seems to be rooted at the core of everything, a limitless sense of wonder -- and irony, a not so worried view of "pending disasters", a not so impressed view of pending sucesses, then wonderful. Why not speak of these things.It really depends on the listeners. If there is an intent to facilitate liberation, does talk cook the rice? Why speak in nebulous labels of "liberation, awakening, and enlightenment"?Such nebulous terms often represent a lack of superknowledge IMO. Then no need for the nebulous. Whose liberation, whose awakening? So many paths, so many traditions make so many distinctions. Lots of trail markers on this hike. Why be so anxious to claim the pinnacle. Why not just claim, if claims are needed, "I am hiking, and its fun". (oops, sorry "the body is hiking" One wonders. Ego? How does one check if what is being expressed is from ego? (And I mean experience not in the sense of "I see the flower" and this "I experience it", but in the sense of "Consciousness Groking", And the process of self-proclamation, what a concept. Someone reads a book and says "I GET that! I must be enlightened." "hm, they say here no-self is enlightenment. I have searched high and low and cannot find an ego. Ergo I am enlightened." Yet so many self-proclaimed enlightened, even here on this list, but more so else where, directly contradict each other. Hmmm. Sure the indescribable can be approached from different angles. But its odd when A says "There is absolutely no ego" and B says, "of course there is an ego, you are insane to think there isn't", and C says "well, there is an ego, but it finds its proper role as servant, not master" and D says "You are a fool to try to understand this paradox of ego, it is Brahman, it is confusion" and E says "well, if you take this conic section and slice it, its clear the ego is an elipse with 16 dancing golden elves who are really the ashwins." Perhaps they each went to a different Satsang, or read a different book.Or was never trained properly so they cannot recognize a false view. Or they've never had there View verified to know if they hold false Views (of reality). Most of these people IME tend to be outside (often deliberately) their alleged traditions. We've been chatting offlist about demonic states. That's certainly another possibility. Its odd too people claim labels (enlightenemnt, awakening, liberation", and not specific "attributes" of such. Its as if the label is a smoke screen for "all attributes".And hoping others assume that. But few are willng to proclaim specific attributes and discuss in detail. Which if the purpose is helping others, to promote insight and understanding, could serve a role. But usually its "la de da liberation". Uh huh. The socratic method always struck me as useful. No proclamations. Simply questions crafted to allow others to get IT in their own way, by their own means. Not that such should be a universal mandate, but it does seem to be a humble path to sharing knowledge. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > You seem to approach Realization as some sort of > intellectual exercise. You seek conceptual consistancy > and coherence like it was some sort of waking state > intellectual product. Why the surprise? That is exactly how it has been presented, by the TM organization and other spiritual traditions, for centuries. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
You seem to approach Realization as some sort of intellectual exercise. You seek conceptual consistancy and coherence like it was some sort of waking state intellectual product. You're not going to find that. While there is comminality to realization, there is also "difference". The "difference" is more the result of different minds/culture expressing that which is outside of expression. Also, why the hostility? It seems that people who talk about enlightenment experiences that don't meet your conceptual definition get you angry in some way. Is that right? --- anonymousff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The self-proclamation part has always struck me as > odd. Linked to the > absolutist interpretations of what IT IS. As if > there is some > insecurity. THIS has to be IT. And odd that there > are strong mandates > of how IT can be spoken of. And how IT cannot. And > what one can > understand and what one cannot. > > And if anyone is experiencing Effulgence, a > seemingly endless flow of > liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is > dumb), constant > wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, > loss of > possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and > things), compassion that > seems to be rooted at the core of everything, a > limitless sense of > wonder -- and irony, a not so worried view of > "pending disasters", a > not so impressed view of pending sucesses, then > wonderful. Why not > speak of these things. Why speak in nebulous labels > of "liberation, > awakening, and enlightenment"? Whose liberation, > whose awakening? So > many paths, so many traditions make so many > distinctions. Lots of > trail markers on this hike. Why be so anxious to > claim the pinnacle. > Why not just claim, if claims are needed, "I am > hiking, and its fun". > (oops, sorry "the body is hiking" > > > (And I mean experience not in the sense of "I see > the flower" and this > "I experience it", but in the sense of > "Consciousness Groking", > > And the process of self-proclamation, what a > concept. Someone reads a > book and says "I GET that! I must be enlightened." > "hm, they say here > no-self is enlightenment. I have searched high and > low and cannot find > an ego. Ergo I am enlightened." Yet so many > self-proclaimed > enlightened, even here on this list, but more so > else where, directly > contradict each other. > > Sure the indescribable can be approached from > different angles. But > its odd when A says "There is absolutely no ego" and > B says, "of > course there is an ego, you are insane to think > there isn't", and C > says "well, there is an ego, but it finds its proper > role as servant, > not master" and D says "You are a fool to try to > understand this > paradox of ego, it is Brahman, it is confusion" and > E says "well, if > you take this conic section and slice it, its clear > the ego is an > elipse with 16 dancing golden elves who are really > the ashwins." > Perhaps they each went to a different Satsang, or > read a different book. > > Its odd too people claim labels (enlightenemnt, > awakening, > liberation", and not specific "attributes" of such. > Its as if the > label is a smoke screen for "all attributes". But > few are willng to > proclaim specific attributes and discuss in detail. > Which if the > purpose is helping others, to promote insight and > understanding, could > serve a role. But usually its "la de da liberation". > > > The socratic method always struck me as useful. No > proclamations. > Simply questions crafted to allow others to get IT > in their own way, > by their own means. Not that such should be a > universal mandate, but > it does seem to be a humble path to sharing > knowledge. > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ~--> > Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or > someone you know. > http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM > ~-> > > > To subscribe, send a message to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Or go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ > and click 'Join This Group!' > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > === message truncated === __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an e
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > And two, it is a healthy thing to do in speaking about it [enlightenment] as if it is just another experience. Because it is...just...another...experience. And yet so many disagree that it is an experience (if that implies an experiencer) and so many disagree that it is not special. So many distinct views of enlightenemnt, it makes on pause for a moment to wonder if maybe some are speaking of different things. Its such a joy that in this age of enlightenment everyone seems free and joyous to define enlightenment any way they think is "neat" and then claim it. Sort of like drawing circles, a target, around an arrow you already shot. On the broadside of the barn. While the fat lady sings. Its such a joy. Cake anyone? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~-> To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Cultism and Free Seekers
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Dec 14, 2005, at 8:36 PM, anonymousff wrote: > > > > > To me, the latter is far more effective and inviting. And it doesn't > > have heavy-handedness of cultish procliamations "this is the way it > > is, period. This interprestation of reality is the only valid one. > > period. And it is known by means way beyond you. So just take it > > without questioning." > > One of the reasons an enlightened being will typically not talk about > enlightenment or even their own enlightenment is because this is, > except for some generalities, of little help in awakening the true > state of enlightenment in others. In other words, it's a very > inefficient way to introduce that state (either temporarily or > permanently) in students. > > It's interesting the culture that has developed in the west from the > satsangs of Ramana, Nisargadatta and Papaji. It's nothing like the > sadhanas that lead them to the non-dual state in the first place. > Ramana was a devotee of Kali who had numerous non-dual sadhanas. But > he did not teach that to his student (that I am aware of). And > Nisargadatta had a Nath guru who undoubtedly taught him some great > teaching which lead to his ripening and liberation. But he also would > not even talk of these teachings in any detail. They gave no methods > for the masses that flocked to them like the ones they themselves > used. But laughingly, those who emulate their examples merely parody > there darshans as if that will do it. It would be laughable if it > wasn't so sad. Even Papaji said none of his students received his > final teaching--the final stroke. They were just leeches. But those > who tasted--glimpsed--the View of non-duality abruptly claimed it as > their own. And then they declared satsangs of their own. And they > declared themselves enlightened on their own...even after people like > Papaji told them, no, sorry. > > It's like the old saying 'those who know, don't say; those who say, > don't know.' > > Worth remembering. > The self-proclamation part has always struck me as odd. Linked to the absolutist interpretations of what IT IS. As if there is some insecurity. THIS has to be IT. And odd that there are strong mandates of how IT can be spoken of. And how IT cannot. And what one can understand and what one cannot. And if anyone is experiencing Effulgence, a seemingly endless flow of liveliness, unshakable bliss (not all bliss is dumb), constant wakefulness, actions happening, knowledge happening, loss of possessionship (of ideas, POVs, relations and things), compassion that seems to be rooted at the core of everything, a limitless sense of wonder -- and irony, a not so worried view of "pending disasters", a not so impressed view of pending sucesses, then wonderful. Why not speak of these things. Why speak in nebulous labels of "liberation, awakening, and enlightenment"? Whose liberation, whose awakening? So many paths, so many traditions make so many distinctions. Lots of trail markers on this hike. Why be so anxious to claim the pinnacle. Why not just claim, if claims are needed, "I am hiking, and its fun". (oops, sorry "the body is hiking" (And I mean experience not in the sense of "I see the flower" and this "I experience it", but in the sense of "Consciousness Groking", And the process of self-proclamation, what a concept. Someone reads a book and says "I GET that! I must be enlightened." "hm, they say here no-self is enlightenment. I have searched high and low and cannot find an ego. Ergo I am enlightened." Yet so many self-proclaimed enlightened, even here on this list, but more so else where, directly contradict each other. Sure the indescribable can be approached from different angles. But its odd when A says "There is absolutely no ego" and B says, "of course there is an ego, you are insane to think there isn't", and C says "well, there is an ego, but it finds its proper role as servant, not master" and D says "You are a fool to try to understand this paradox of ego, it is Brahman, it is confusion" and E says "well, if you take this conic section and slice it, its clear the ego is an elipse with 16 dancing golden elves who are really the ashwins." Perhaps they each went to a different Satsang, or read a different book. Its odd too people claim labels (enlightenemnt, awakening, liberation", and not specific "attributes" of such. Its as if the label is a smoke screen for "all attributes". But few are willng to proclaim specific attributes and discuss in detail. Which if the purpose is helping others, to promote insight and understanding, could serve a role. But usually its "la de da liberation". The socratic method always struck me as useful. No proclamations. Simply questions crafted to allow others to get IT in their own way, by their own means. Not that such should be a universal mandate, but it does seem to be a humble
