Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
as I previously stated, contacting developers is the first step. I read somewhere on the Rock band site that RB2 developers wanted to make their games accessible to as many people as possible, including blind people. Guess why they haven't? Because they have no clue how to do this. I play RB2, but a lot of it involves memorization and familiarity with the game mechanics. I haven't actually thought of way the game could be made fully accessible the way sighted people play it due to the complexity of the notes etc. If anyone thinks of something, however, feel free to contact Harmonix though! - Original Message - From: ChB chr1...@gmx.de To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 2:25 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Frankly the public does not care if a blind person is able to play video games, so the media interest would be non existent. I think you'd get more media attention if you partioned to car developers complaining about not being able to drive then you do if you complain about video game accesibility. I hate that fact as much as anyone, as I had played games from the days of old nintendo nes when I still had sight. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:07 PM To: Munawar Bijani; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility good point. Another way we could do this was approach comapanies and make accessible front ends to their stuff. ok so its probably not going to be cost effective and so we do it for free at first and wait. we also need some media recognition and this means doing something big. taking in mind that media can both damage and help as well as hinder though we would have to be carefull. ofcause its hit and miss. and time and other things, hmph but I think its feesable. in theory at least. At 04:40 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hmmm, now there's a game I've been rather interested to play. And it's heartening to hear that that particular developer at least might be more willing to make the game more accessible. Now if only I knew of a way to do this. I may talk to my girlfriend about that. If all goes as we plan tomorrow we'll have a few days together, during which we'll hopefully be putting our heads together to come up with game ideas and coming up with ways to make it happen. She's a programmer as I said, though as yet I don't know what languages she's versed in. But maybe she and I could come up with some ideas on how one might make RB more blind friendly. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. - Original Message - From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 2009 8:14 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility as I previously stated, contacting developers is the first step. I read somewhere on the Rock band site that RB2 developers wanted to make their games accessible to as many people as possible, including blind people. Guess why they haven't? Because they have no clue how to do this. I play RB2, but a lot of it involves memorization and familiarity with the game mechanics. I haven't actually thought of way the game could be made fully accessible the way sighted people play it due to the complexity of the notes etc. If anyone thinks of something, however, feel free to contact Harmonix though! - Original Message - From: ChB chr1...@gmx.de To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 2:25 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Frankly the public does not care if a blind person is able to play video games, so the media interest would be non existent. I think you'd get more media attention if you partioned to car developers complaining about not being able to drive then you do if you complain about video game accesibility. I hate that fact as much as anyone, as I had played games from the days of old nintendo nes when I still had sight. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:07 PM To: Munawar Bijani; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility good point. Another way we could do this was approach comapanies and make accessible front ends to their stuff. ok so its probably not going to be cost effective and so we do it for free at first and wait. we also need some media recognition and this means doing something big. taking in mind that media can both damage and help as well as hinder though we would have to be carefull. ofcause its hit and miss. and time and other things, hmph but I think its feesable. in theory at least. At 04:40 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi Pranav, It is true I don't know of many game developers that have set up booths at major conventions, but some have tried it with mixed success. I know james North tried it when he was still running ESP, and I know PCS Games went a couple of times. Problem is trying to make enough off of the sales to make it worth while. As always it comes down to a matter of time and money. Neither of which I have enough of to properly market my games. Pranav Lal wrote: Hi Ryan, Thanks for clarifying that. I appreciate all those statistics and yes we do have far bigger challenges to overcome. However, perhaps what is needed is greater awareness even in these organisations about accessible games. For example, I have not seen any game developers host any stalls in any of the blindness conventions or major blindness technology conferences. I suspect this is because most developers are single man operations and do this in their spare time. To counteract this, perhaps a bunch of enthusiastic users could put up the money and host stalls at blindness technology shows. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
The unfortunate truth is, that I doubt that mainstream games will ever support accessibilty to blind gamers. There is simply no money to be made here. The number of blind people who would buy such games is way too small to justify the effort for them. Video games are developed and played for the most part, by sighted people, that is what they work on. Even if every one of us would sign to buy every new release out there it would still not be profitable for them in ages. It is a lot less work and stuff to make games accesible for people who are deaf as all it takes is subtitling the games in the dialogues, so that is being done in most mainstream games already. To make us able to fully enjoy the game you'd basically have to rewrite it. So even if some dedicated blind games developer would start to convert such a game, the licensing would be tremendous amounts of money to be paid to the original developer. chrissy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Frankly the public does not care if a blind person is able to play video games, so the media interest would be non existent. I think you'd get more media attention if you partioned to car developers complaining about not being able to drive then you do if you complain about video game accesibility. I hate that fact as much as anyone, as I had played games from the days of old nintendo nes when I still had sight. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:07 PM To: Munawar Bijani; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility good point. Another way we could do this was approach comapanies and make accessible front ends to their stuff. ok so its probably not going to be cost effective and so we do it for free at first and wait. we also need some media recognition and this means doing something big. taking in mind that media can both damage and help as well as hinder though we would have to be carefull. ofcause its hit and miss. and time and other things, hmph but I think its feesable. in theory at least. At 04:40 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hehehe, well Charles I'm afraid if we gave them our info, i.e. how much time it took to put in the talking menu system, get talking feedback from the game etc. then show them our pitiful income from the game, they would snicker under their breath as they fed our report into the shredder. The money I made off Rail Racer wouldn't pay Electronic Arts electric bill for a month I'm sure. The bottom line is, if we want great games to play, we're just gonna have to either make them ourselves or support the folks making them by buying their games, letting others know about them, and stop distributing pirated copies of the games out there. We're very fortunate to have the developers we have out there, willing to do this for the love of it, and not the profit. Because if blind gaming was all about money, there wouldn't be any blind games out there at all. Later, Che - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility I'm just thinking about this as I type, so here goes, for what it's worth: What we need, if it would make a difference to the major game manufacturers, is credence. Letters to these companies from current and or past developers of games specifically for the blind who can show, by backing up their claims with records if necessary if they are willing to include them in the letters, letting these companies know what is necessary to make games accessible to the blind gamer. We also need people to verify the size of the potential additional customer base expansion, and maybe these game companies will consider working on game modifications. These companies also need to know how important and how much fun and enjoyment some of the currently blind gamers got from their products when they could still see enough to play the games. And, thoughts from blind gamers who have never played these games due to a lack of eyesight, but who would like to, voiced in a clear and adult manner, with good grammar, punctuation, and spelling, showing the game manufacturers that we are not uneducated and that we know what we're talking about, wouldn't hurt, either. --- Shepherds are the best beasts. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Josh, Sigh...Believe it or not we can't get everything we want simply by making demands, throwing adult temper tantrums, and acting like spoiled children. If we did that I can assure you that is exactly how they would view our immature behavior regarding this issue. First, of all you are completely ignoring the law. Are you aware that carrying out a campaign of bombarding their e-mails, phones, mail, etc can get you charged with harassment? If you make threats or make any kind of menacing comments to them you can be charged with menacing? Are you aware if you write a program with the intent to e-mail them daily, weekly, etc without there consent that is illegal? My point is if we are to make any progress with these companies at all we have to above all else act like responsible adults. Acting like a spoiled child who lost his game privileges and is tossing a temper tantrum isn't going to make them respect us any. If we want them to respect us we have to first respect them. Respect is earned not taken by force. If we don't act responcibly we could find ourselves in court being charged with something. As far as taking them to court I don't think you have any idea how much that would cost. Most of these companies have the financial fortitude to higher the best legal services in the country. A case like this could go as far as the supreme court because in a way it is a type of civil rights case. Cases involving disabilities or racial issues can drag out years in the courts both sides winning and losing battles until it reaches a level where someone can make a ruling that is binding. That costs more money than any of us realistically have. Josh wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Chrissy, I think you're right on here. Besides which I don't believe every single game technically could be made accessible. Can you imagine the can of worms that would open if suddenly some games were accessible but others weren't? Ryan -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of ChB Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 1:21 AM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility The unfortunate truth is, that I doubt that mainstream games will ever support accessibilty to blind gamers. There is simply no money to be made here. The number of blind people who would buy such games is way too small to justify the effort for them. Video games are developed and played for the most part, by sighted people, that is what they work on. Even if every one of us would sign to buy every new release out there it would still not be profitable for them in ages. It is a lot less work and stuff to make games accesible for people who are deaf as all it takes is subtitling the games in the dialogues, so that is being done in most mainstream games already. To make us able to fully enjoy the game you'd basically have to rewrite it. So even if some dedicated blind games developer would start to convert such a game, the licensing would be tremendous amounts of money to be paid to the original developer. chrissy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Exactly. That's probably also why they haven't taken a stand in the face of Myspace's vague we're working on it promises. Much more important things to deal with. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. - Original Message - From: Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility I can't speak to all three organizations, but I would guess the reason a stand isn't taken is because there are many bigger issues out there. Nearly three fourths of blind people in the US are unemployed. Only twelve percent are learning to read Braille. Funding for rehabilitation centers is being cut all over. In the face of that, game accessibility just doesn't seem that critical. Ryan -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Pranav Lal Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:28 PM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Josh, That is spamming and illegal. The way to get attention is probably by a mass media campaign. |One thing that puzzles me is that large blindness organizations like the AFB, ACB and the NFB have not made much of a noise about game accessibility. They may have better clout then a bunch of users. Mind you, I am in India so I could be wrong about these organizations. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
I can't speak to all three organizations, but I would guess the reason a stand isn't taken is because there are many bigger issues out there. Nearly three fourths of blind people in the US are unemployed. Only twelve percent are learning to read Braille. Funding for rehabilitation centers is being cut all over. In the face of that, game accessibility just doesn't seem that critical. Ryan -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Pranav Lal Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 7:28 PM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Josh, That is spamming and illegal. The way to get attention is probably by a mass media campaign. |One thing that puzzles me is that large blindness organizations like the AFB, ACB and the NFB have not made much of a noise about game accessibility. They may have better clout then a bunch of users. Mind you, I am in India so I could be wrong about these organizations. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi, I have to agree with you. Recently there has been some talk about a car that can drive itself, and of course the media felt this might be a revolutionary breakthrough for groups such as the blind who can not drive cars. In the medias eyes this is big news. However, the fact that GMA, Jim Kitchen, or myself are working on accessible games for the blind aren't even worth a mentioning on the back page of your average news paper most of the time. What media attention we do get from time to time is often there for a quick wow responce and is quickly forgotten. Frankly, the general public doesn't care, and generally is unconcerned about blind accessibility issues like this. ChB wrote: Frankly the public does not care if a blind person is able to play video games, so the media interest would be non existent. I think you'd get more media attention if you partioned to car developers complaining about not being able to drive then you do if you complain about video game accesibility. I hate that fact as much as anyone, as I had played games from the days of old nintendo nes when I still had sight. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:07 PM To: Munawar Bijani; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility good point. Another way we could do this was approach comapanies and make accessible front ends to their stuff. ok so its probably not going to be cost effective and so we do it for free at first and wait. we also need some media recognition and this means doing something big. taking in mind that media can both damage and help as well as hinder though we would have to be carefull. ofcause its hit and miss. and time and other things, hmph but I think its feesable. in theory at least. At 04:40 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Exactly and that is a shame. You guys do a great deal of keeping a lot of blind gamers very happy with your products, sadly most of the regular games are going to be off limits to us. Lol, about the cars. Being blind myself but still kind of shudder at the prospective of blind car drivers all over the place. I can just see a cop pull one of us over and saying, 'gee what is wrong with you driving like that, are you blind?' yes... grin* unfortunately a lot of the general public is still pretty ignorant when it comes to the needs of disabled people or the aides out there for them. I still get disbelief a lot of times when I offer a person my email address. Lol. most have no clue blind people can run computers, let alone what we use to run them chrissy. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 6:42 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi, I have to agree with you. Recently there has been some talk about a car that can drive itself, and of course the media felt this might be a revolutionary breakthrough for groups such as the blind who can not drive cars. In the medias eyes this is big news. However, the fact that GMA, Jim Kitchen, or myself are working on accessible games for the blind aren't even worth a mentioning on the back page of your average news paper most of the time. What media attention we do get from time to time is often there for a quick wow responce and is quickly forgotten. Frankly, the general public doesn't care, and generally is unconcerned about blind accessibility issues like this. ChB wrote: Frankly the public does not care if a blind person is able to play video games, so the media interest would be non existent. I think you'd get more media attention if you partioned to car developers complaining about not being able to drive then you do if you complain about video game accesibility. I hate that fact as much as anyone, as I had played games from the days of old nintendo nes when I still had sight. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:07 PM To: Munawar Bijani; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility good point. Another way we could do this was approach comapanies and make accessible front ends to their stuff. ok so its probably not going to be cost effective and so we do it for free at first and wait. we also need some media recognition and this means doing something big. taking in mind that media can both damage and help as well as hinder though we would have to be carefull. ofcause its hit and miss. and time and other things, hmph but I think its feesable. in theory at least. At 04:40 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi Ryan, Good point. That is one issue I briefly touched upon in my interview with Game Spot last night. Fact of the matter is while there are several games that might be improved accessibility wise there will always be some types of games that can and never will be made accessible. Understand I mean not technically possible rather than a lack of desire to try and make it accessible. It is terribly difficult to explain to some people who don't have the faintest clue about programming about certain things like this. Some blind gamers may assume because games have been made accessible in the past that every game that has been created could be made accessible if someone tried. That isn't true, and there will always be a few games that require some level of sight to play no matter what. Ryan Strunk wrote: Chrissy, I think you're right on here. Besides which I don't believe every single game technically could be made accessible. Can you imagine the can of worms that would open if suddenly some games were accessible but others weren't? Ryan --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
blind driving a car? it has happened, if interested contact me off list and I'll send you the article; no one cared about civil rights, no one cared about woman's rights and no one cares about Blind issues; we have to take the bull by the horns and stand up as a people.. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi, I have to agree with you. Recently there has been some talk about a car that can drive itself, and of course the media felt this might be a revolutionary breakthrough for groups such as the blind who can not drive cars. In the medias eyes this is big news. However, the fact that GMA, Jim Kitchen, or myself are working on accessible games for the blind aren't even worth a mentioning on the back page of your average news paper most of the time. What media attention we do get from time to time is often there for a quick wow responce and is quickly forgotten. Frankly, the general public doesn't care, and generally is unconcerned about blind accessibility issues like this. ChB wrote: Frankly the public does not care if a blind person is able to play video games, so the media interest would be non existent. I think you'd get more media attention if you partioned to car developers complaining about not being able to drive then you do if you complain about video game accesibility. I hate that fact as much as anyone, as I had played games from the days of old nintendo nes when I still had sight. chrissy -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:07 PM To: Munawar Bijani; Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility good point. Another way we could do this was approach comapanies and make accessible front ends to their stuff. ok so its probably not going to be cost effective and so we do it for free at first and wait. we also need some media recognition and this means doing something big. taking in mind that media can both damage and help as well as hinder though we would have to be carefull. ofcause its hit and miss. and time and other things, hmph but I think its feesable. in theory at least. At 04:40 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
For those blind people who ask, Why can't you make this game accessible?, and they don't understand why you cannot, turn the tables by asking Got any ideas on how to do it? I'm open to any and all credible suggestions. Maybe they will get a clue and maybe they won't, but it's an attempt to drive the point home. I can think of 2 examples right away that some blind people would possibly be interested in. A game of pool, as in 8-ball, and a game of Quidditch. In the game of pool, how would the balls be identified and located? How would aiming be done? How would the power of your shot be determined? In the game of Quidditch, how would you keep track of 13 moving players, 2 moving bludgers, the quaffle and the golden snitch? And, if you choose to play the position of chaser, where are the goals and keeper in relation to you? Asking why a game cannot be, or hasn't been, made accessible is easy, but the solution certainly is not! Even if you have a solution, conveying your instructions to a computer so that everything works flawlessly and smoothly is a problem that takes time only recognized by programmers who work at it on a daily basis. --- Shepherds are the best beasts. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Ryan, Good point. That is one issue I briefly touched upon in my interview with Game Spot last night. Fact of the matter is while there are several games that might be improved accessibility wise there will always be some types of games that can and never will be made accessible. Understand I mean not technically possible rather than a lack of desire to try and make it accessible. It is terribly difficult to explain to some people who don't have the faintest clue about programming about certain things like this. Some blind gamers may assume because games have been made accessible in the past that every game that has been created could be made accessible if someone tried. That isn't true, and there will always be a few games that require some level of sight to play no matter what. Ryan Strunk wrote: Chrissy, I think you're right on here. Besides which I don't believe every single game technically could be made accessible. Can you imagine the can of worms that would open if suddenly some games were accessible but others weren't? Ryan --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi Ryan, Thanks for clarifying that. I appreciate all those statistics and yes we do have far bigger challenges to overcome. However, perhaps what is needed is greater awareness even in these organisations about accessible games. For example, I have not seen any game developers host any stalls in any of the blindness conventions or major blindness technology conferences. I suspect this is because most developers are single man operations and do this in their spare time. To counteract this, perhaps a bunch of enthusiastic users could put up the money and host stalls at blindness technology shows. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi Sean, The vOICe does take a little getting used to. I have written a tutorial for the program which you can read at http://www.sensorysubstitution.co.uk/tutorial Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
You make a good point. James North once hosted a table at the NFB convention exhibit hall where he played his demo of The Genesis Project. He said just based on the sound recording people wanted to pre-order the game. Ryan -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Pranav Lal Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 7:54 PM To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Ryan, Thanks for clarifying that. I appreciate all those statistics and yes we do have far bigger challenges to overcome. However, perhaps what is needed is greater awareness even in these organisations about accessible games. For example, I have not seen any game developers host any stalls in any of the blindness conventions or major blindness technology conferences. I suspect this is because most developers are single man operations and do this in their spare time. To counteract this, perhaps a bunch of enthusiastic users could put up the money and host stalls at blindness technology shows. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
That would be rude. Plus, our messages would be ignored. --- Shepherds are the best beasts. - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:02 AM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
good idea, except I don't think we have that muscle. as indeviduals we are not much. as a group, well I don't know. I'd really like to do this drastic ting. However I really don't want the rest here to suffer, the net being cut off, chriminal records, etc. Pluss even if we were able to do this, how would we get started. and how would we be able to keep making a stand. ok we may win a battle but the war? Ok if we ganged together and got with all the orgs, groups etc world wide and got all our resources and did it that way, then maybe. But then keeping together, etc hmph. Believe me I'd like to do something like that. but we'd have to push and push hard to get through. and we would lose many. Right now though, I don't think we are strong enough. yes as a group we can spam the companies. over that though I don't think we have the strength. If the igda is not making much difference and they are quite big, then what chance do we have. At 04:02 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
As I said, it would just seem to confirm the concept some people already have of us, that blind people are spoiled brats who demand anything. As much as I hate to say it, accessibility in mainstream games is probably never going to happen. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. - Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility good idea, except I don't think we have that muscle. as indeviduals we are not much. as a group, well I don't know. I'd really like to do this drastic ting. However I really don't want the rest here to suffer, the net being cut off, chriminal records, etc. Pluss even if we were able to do this, how would we get started. and how would we be able to keep making a stand. ok we may win a battle but the war? Ok if we ganged together and got with all the orgs, groups etc world wide and got all our resources and did it that way, then maybe. But then keeping together, etc hmph. Believe me I'd like to do something like that. but we'd have to push and push hard to get through. and we would lose many. Right now though, I don't think we are strong enough. yes as a group we can spam the companies. over that though I don't think we have the strength. If the igda is not making much difference and they are quite big, then what chance do we have. At 04:02 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hate to burst your bubble, but even if you could get someone to respond to that method, all that would accomplish is giving blind people the sort of reputation we don't want. We already have said unwanted reputation thanks to people who feel that blindness elevates us to the status of royalty. That's what your proposed ahrrassment method would make these game companies think, if they thought anything at all. Face it Josh, chances are mainstream games are most likely never going to be fully accessible to us. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 10:02 AM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
good point. Another way we could do this was approach comapanies and make accessible front ends to their stuff. ok so its probably not going to be cost effective and so we do it for free at first and wait. we also need some media recognition and this means doing something big. taking in mind that media can both damage and help as well as hinder though we would have to be carefull. ofcause its hit and miss. and time and other things, hmph but I think its feesable. in theory at least. At 04:40 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Well that's the point. Almost all these ideas are good in theory, but that's not the same thing. In practice it's less successful. Remember, it all comes down to money. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. - Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz To: Munawar Bijani munaw...@gmail.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility good point. Another way we could do this was approach comapanies and make accessible front ends to their stuff. ok so its probably not going to be cost effective and so we do it for free at first and wait. we also need some media recognition and this means doing something big. taking in mind that media can both damage and help as well as hinder though we would have to be carefull. ofcause its hit and miss. and time and other things, hmph but I think its feesable. in theory at least. At 04:40 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi Josh, The suing part requires money not many of us can dish out. As for blackmail, well, they have advanced blocking features because I'm sure they deal with that kind of stuff every day. It's easy to ignore spam mail--just press your delete button. What are you going to tell them, make it accessible or else? They'll just laugh in your face we're a multi billion dollar company, a petty $5,000 lawsuit won't dent us. Good bye. Throwing tantrums gets you nowhere in today's times. Munawar A. Bijani Knowledge is of two types: absorbed and heard. The heard knowledge is only useful if it is absorbed. - Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib, Nahj Al-Balagha mailto:munaw...@gmail.com http://www.bpcprograms.com - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:02 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi Josh, Sigh...Believe it or not we can't get everything we want simply by making demands, throwing adult temper tantrums, and acting like spoiled children. If we did that I can assure you that is exactly how they would view our immature behavior regarding this issue. First, of all you are completely ignoring the law. Are you aware that carrying out a campaign of bombarding their e-mails, phones, mail, etc can get you charged with harassment? If you make threats or make any kind of menacing comments to them you can be charged with menacing? Are you aware if you write a program with the intent to e-mail them daily, weekly, etc without there consent that is illegal? My point is if we are to make any progress with these companies at all we have to above all else act like responsible adults. Acting like a spoiled child who lost his game privileges and is tossing a temper tantrum isn't going to make them respect us any. If we want them to respect us we have to first respect them. Respect is earned not taken by force. If we don't act responcibly we could find ourselves in court being charged with something. As far as taking them to court I don't think you have any idea how much that would cost. Most of these companies have the financial fortitude to higher the best legal services in the country. A case like this could go as far as the supreme court because in a way it is a type of civil rights case. Cases involving disabilities or racial issues can drag out years in the courts both sides winning and losing battles until it reaches a level where someone can make a ruling that is binding. That costs more money than any of us realistically have. Josh wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hello, Sorry to hijack the thread, but I need to get ahold of Thomas Ward ASAP. I believe you're reading this discussion list right now, Thomas. If you are, could you please give me a call back (check the email I sent an hour or two ago). Thanks Thomas! Matthew Peters GameSpot -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org on behalf of Thomas Ward Sent: Sun 8/16/2009 1:40 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Josh, Sigh...Believe it or not we can't get everything we want simply by making demands, throwing adult temper tantrums, and acting like spoiled children. If we did that I can assure you that is exactly how they would view our immature behavior regarding this issue. First, of all you are completely ignoring the law. Are you aware that carrying out a campaign of bombarding their e-mails, phones, mail, etc can get you charged with harassment? If you make threats or make any kind of menacing comments to them you can be charged with menacing? Are you aware if you write a program with the intent to e-mail them daily, weekly, etc without there consent that is illegal? My point is if we are to make any progress with these companies at all we have to above all else act like responsible adults. Acting like a spoiled child who lost his game privileges and is tossing a temper tantrum isn't going to make them respect us any. If we want them to respect us we have to first respect them. Respect is earned not taken by force. If we don't act responcibly we could find ourselves in court being charged with something. As far as taking them to court I don't think you have any idea how much that would cost. Most of these companies have the financial fortitude to higher the best legal services in the country. A case like this could go as far as the supreme court because in a way it is a type of civil rights case. Cases involving disabilities or racial issues can drag out years in the courts both sides winning and losing battles until it reaches a level where someone can make a ruling that is binding. That costs more money than any of us realistically have. Josh wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Not only that, but as I told him in another message it'll give the entire blind community, gaming or otherwise, a reputation we definitely don't want, and which we already have in some people's minds just because of one blind person they met on the street. I know a girl like that, who seems to feel blindness means we should get deferencial treatment as if we were royalty. I hate people like that with a passion. But while I'd love to see every future mainstream game made accessible and even the current ones, realistically it's probably never going to happen. And even if, miracle of miracles, we did manage to win the respect of mainstream devs, we may be able to get them to make their upcoming games accessible, but there's no way in Hades we'd be able to get them to go back and make their prior titles accessible, unless perhaps it be a port to a new console. And even then they might only do it with some games. Ideally what needs to happen is some blind electronics and computer nerd needs to design a gaming console specifically for us, a console so innovative that it captures the attention of the media. It might prove our point to mainstream devs and it might not. But such an idea would likely cost far more than any blind person has to spare. The long and short of it is that mainstream game accessibility is and will probably always be no more than wishful thinking unless we can all find a way to band together in a mature, persuasive manner and persuade these big corporations that it wold be in their best interests. And make mo mistake, EVERY BLIND PERSON IN THE WORLD would probably have to get involved in this. And even then it might not do any good. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Josh, Sigh...Believe it or not we can't get everything we want simply by making demands, throwing adult temper tantrums, and acting like spoiled children. If we did that I can assure you that is exactly how they would view our immature behavior regarding this issue. First, of all you are completely ignoring the law. Are you aware that carrying out a campaign of bombarding their e-mails, phones, mail, etc can get you charged with harassment? If you make threats or make any kind of menacing comments to them you can be charged with menacing? Are you aware if you write a program with the intent to e-mail them daily, weekly, etc without there consent that is illegal? My point is if we are to make any progress with these companies at all we have to above all else act like responsible adults. Acting like a spoiled child who lost his game privileges and is tossing a temper tantrum isn't going to make them respect us any. If we want them to respect us we have to first respect them. Respect is earned not taken by force. If we don't act responcibly we could find ourselves in court being charged with something. As far as taking them to court I don't think you have any idea how much that would cost. Most of these companies have the financial fortitude to higher the best legal services in the country. A case like this could go as far as the supreme court because in a way it is a type of civil rights case. Cases involving disabilities or racial issues can drag out years in the courts both sides winning and losing battles until it reaches a level where someone can make a ruling that is binding. That costs more money than any of us realistically have. Josh wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hate to tell you this Josh, but that was Audio Game Maker. And that was hardly a success. Students are going to make audio games but they'll only be doing it because it's part of the curriculum. Once it's done they'll blow it off. That's what happened with Audio Game Maker...and we all know how buggy that turned out to be. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. - Original Message - From: Josh jkenn...@gmail.com To: gamers list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 5:18 PM Subject: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Oh my Phil the top 10 ways is funny yet serious! Oh you know what? I got an idea! Why not write to colleges and universities around the world. tell them this, if you have any students studying computer programming, have the students make audio games for blind people while in college. Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi all, The other approach that we could try is using suitable bridging technology. The vOICe is a visual prosthesis that can in theory give you vision via sound. I have used it to view images and animations so it could work for games. The Cobra screen reader has OCR capabilities. I am not sure if an English version is out for this screen reader. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Josh, That is spamming and illegal. The way to get attention is probably by a mass media campaign. |One thing that puzzles me is that large blindness organizations like the AFB, ACB and the NFB have not made much of a noise about game accessibility. They may have better clout then a bunch of users. Mind you, I am in India so I could be wrong about these organizations. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
What noone here seems to be considering is to contact the developers. not the companies, but the lead developers for different gaming projects. here's an example. How many of you have tried to contact Mortal Kombat's creator Ed Boon? I'd take a guess that not many have. There's no excuse not to. the man has a twitter account set up. So why not contact him and let him know we're out there? I wrote to him a few days back congratulating his sound team on the great job they do and I'm planning to keep contacting him in the future. I know for a fact that he reads replies because he replies to people. He hasn't written to me personally, but I'm almost certain that if he didn't know blind people play his games, he does now. this is what everyone should be doing. If these devs have twitter or facebook etc, take advantage of it! - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Well that's the point. Almost all these ideas are good in theory, but that's not the same thing. In practice it's less successful. Remember, it all comes down to money. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
I'm just thinking about this as I type, so here goes, for what it's worth: What we need, if it would make a difference to the major game manufacturers, is credence. Letters to these companies from current and or past developers of games specifically for the blind who can show, by backing up their claims with records if necessary if they are willing to include them in the letters, letting these companies know what is necessary to make games accessible to the blind gamer. We also need people to verify the size of the potential additional customer base expansion, and maybe these game companies will consider working on game modifications. These companies also need to know how important and how much fun and enjoyment some of the currently blind gamers got from their products when they could still see enough to play the games. And, thoughts from blind gamers who have never played these games due to a lack of eyesight, but who would like to, voiced in a clear and adult manner, with good grammar, punctuation, and spelling, showing the game manufacturers that we are not uneducated and that we know what we're talking about, wouldn't hurt, either. --- Shepherds are the best beasts. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Josh, Sigh...Believe it or not we can't get everything we want simply by making demands, throwing adult temper tantrums, and acting like spoiled children. If we did that I can assure you that is exactly how they would view our immature behavior regarding this issue. First, of all you are completely ignoring the law. Are you aware that carrying out a campaign of bombarding their e-mails, phones, mail, etc can get you charged with harassment? If you make threats or make any kind of menacing comments to them you can be charged with menacing? Are you aware if you write a program with the intent to e-mail them daily, weekly, etc without there consent that is illegal? My point is if we are to make any progress with these companies at all we have to above all else act like responsible adults. Acting like a spoiled child who lost his game privileges and is tossing a temper tantrum isn't going to make them respect us any. If we want them to respect us we have to first respect them. Respect is earned not taken by force. If we don't act responcibly we could find ourselves in court being charged with something. As far as taking them to court I don't think you have any idea how much that would cost. Most of these companies have the financial fortitude to higher the best legal services in the country. A case like this could go as far as the supreme court because in a way it is a type of civil rights case. Cases involving disabilities or racial issues can drag out years in the courts both sides winning and losing battles until it reaches a level where someone can make a ruling that is binding. That costs more money than any of us realistically have. Josh wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
hmm thats probably not such a bad idea. the experemental games are made in such a place. in fact every year I look foreward to the time they release games. I forgot when this is but unless I am very much mistaken we have not had this year's releases. At 11:18 a.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Oh my Phil the top 10 ways is funny yet serious! Oh you know what? I got an idea! Why not write to colleges and universities around the world. tell them this, if you have any students studying computer programming, have the students make audio games for blind people while in college. Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
thats a good point and one missed on. ofcause you need to find who the lead dev of a game is but yeah get at the source and maybe you can get an answer. even if you don't get a responce if enough do it, there may be enough interest. At 12:23 p.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: What noone here seems to be considering is to contact the developers. not the companies, but the lead developers for different gaming projects. here's an example. How many of you have tried to contact Mortal Kombat's creator Ed Boon? I'd take a guess that not many have. There's no excuse not to. the man has a twitter account set up. So why not contact him and let him know we're out there? I wrote to him a few days back congratulating his sound team on the great job they do and I'm planning to keep contacting him in the future. I know for a fact that he reads replies because he replies to people. He hasn't written to me personally, but I'm almost certain that if he didn't know blind people play his games, he does now. this is what everyone should be doing. If these devs have twitter or facebook etc, take advantage of it! - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Well that's the point. Almost all these ideas are good in theory, but that's not the same thing. In practice it's less successful. Remember, it all comes down to money. You have acquired the skill of Weaponry Theremin. Your current level of mastery is 10 Apprentice. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
hmm pranav. thats a point. However its really not on their major to do list. you think for a moment. gaming is minor, roads, buildings and every things we do eg eating, cooking cleaning, etc are more important than games. web site accessibility is another media type thing. everyone does it, now if everyone blind or whatever in the world played computer games then maybe we would have action. but not enough play games to make it worth their while. not to say nothing has happened. our local org did something small a couple years ago. I forget what it is. in 2000 I was flatting. I put loads of accessible games and programs on the computers in there and the network. I was friendly with the admin, and just shoved it everywhere. the systems are probably all formatted now and they are probably all just junk, I was the only one that played them. however everyone knew I was doing this, and I let everyone know what I was doing and trying to do. True nothing happened, in fact it was quite useless but still I did try. This is one way we can do things, not with work but say coledges, schools, etc. if you are not allowed to do such things always mention it, etc. write about it etc. a little page you do gets put in other places. if its good enough the media hear about it and after that maybe you get a bite. And all you had to do was spend a hour of so of your time writing it. At 12:27 p.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Josh, That is spamming and illegal. The way to get attention is probably by a mass media campaign. |One thing that puzzles me is that large blindness organizations like the AFB, ACB and the NFB have not made much of a noise about game accessibility. They may have better clout then a bunch of users. Mind you, I am in India so I could be wrong about these organizations. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
I never had much success with it but then never understood it really. At 12:27 p.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi all, The other approach that we could try is using suitable bridging technology. The vOICe is a visual prosthesis that can in theory give you vision via sound. I have used it to view images and animations so it could work for games. The Cobra screen reader has OCR capabilities. I am not sure if an English version is out for this screen reader. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
good idea. um but how many do we have? the major devs are or rather companies are gma, pcs, usa, dracoent, lworks, bpc. there are minor devs, kitchensinc, and maybe those at audiogames.net. ma-dy, and maybe jayson at entombed, jeanluc on soundrts, maybe a couple others, the guy that did night of parasite although who knows. everyone else is just hmm not on the list of relyable devs. to appear, maybe che, lighttech interactive. maybe a couple others I have missed. a huge load of opensource devs are out there. James north is another, he did get burned out though, however he may be good for this. over that though we probably don't have much. I doubt we would get more than 6 or so that are around or that we know are always around. it would not be enough just devs. At 02:31 p.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: I'm just thinking about this as I type, so here goes, for what it's worth: What we need, if it would make a difference to the major game manufacturers, is credence. Letters to these companies from current and or past developers of games specifically for the blind who can show, by backing up their claims with records if necessary if they are willing to include them in the letters, letting these companies know what is necessary to make games accessible to the blind gamer. We also need people to verify the size of the potential additional customer base expansion, and maybe these game companies will consider working on game modifications. These companies also need to know how important and how much fun and enjoyment some of the currently blind gamers got from their products when they could still see enough to play the games. And, thoughts from blind gamers who have never played these games due to a lack of eyesight, but who would like to, voiced in a clear and adult manner, with good grammar, punctuation, and spelling, showing the game manufacturers tha t we are not uneducated and that we know what we're talking about, wouldn't hurt, either. --- Shepherds are the best beasts. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility Hi Josh, Sigh...Believe it or not we can't get everything we want simply by making demands, throwing adult temper tantrums, and acting like spoiled children. If we did that I can assure you that is exactly how they would view our immature behavior regarding this issue. First, of all you are completely ignoring the law. Are you aware that carrying out a campaign of bombarding their e-mails, phones, mail, etc can get you charged with harassment? If you make threats or make any kind of menacing comments to them you can be charged with menacing? Are you aware if you write a program with the intent to e-mail them daily, weekly, etc without there consent that is illegal? My point is if we are to make any progress with these companies at all we have to above all else act like responsible adults. Acting like a spoiled child who lost his game privileges and is tossing a temper tantrum isn't going to make them respect us any. If we want them to respect us we have to first respect them. Respect is earned not taken by force. If we don't act responcibly we could find ourselves in court being charged with something. As far as taking them to court I don't think you have any idea how much that would cost. Most of these companies have the financial fortitude to higher the best legal services in the country. A case like this could go as far as the supreme court because in a way it is a type of civil rights case. Cases involving disabilities or racial issues can drag out years in the courts both sides winning and losing battles until it reaches a level where someone can make a ruling that is binding. That costs more money than any of us realistically have. Josh wrote: Hi Thomas, Ok then. why not send them mass emails until they get sick of us and take them to court over it and sue them. If we are an insect that can be swatted out of the way, then lets make ourselves look big, huge, gigantic! lets make a program that sends them emails and does automated calling to the companies once per week or once per month which reminds them we will not go away and we will not stand for their rudeness! Josh Join me on klango at www.klango.net visit and sign my petition at: http://www.petitiononline.com/coda1234/petition.html and visit my blog at: http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net follow me on twitter at http://www.twitter.com/jkenn337 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
Hi, Bryan said: hat needs to happen is some blind electronics and computer nerd needs to design a gaming console specifically for us, a console so innovative that it captures the attention of the media. It might prove our point to mainstream devs and it might not. My responce: Yes, and this is something I have put serious thought into for quite a while. I am pretty handy with computer electronics as well as with software development. However, the usual problems of time and money prevent me from actually following through with such an idea. Even assuming I actually constructed a working game console, wrote the operating system for it, created a game development API the cost of the thing would be out of the price range of most gamers here. Then, we have the problem, as has been discussed before, that not all of the accessible game developers are on the same page in terms of software development. Ideally the game console would have all of the games written in C++. Unfortunately, most of the accessible game developers here don't know C++ and depend on Windows only languages like Visual Basic. Clearly I would have to educate several accessible developers in C++, my API, etc just to get them to port their games to the console. As a result it is not at all a practical solution. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mainstream game accessibility
well I can help here. the os of choice would have to be a linux based os. its free opensource and is used everywhere mostly. soleris is another option. dos although not free as such is in the public domain, at least 7 is. tom you were thinking about developing a linux distro. Now if you had to say have a standard distrobution which was free maybe a pro distrobution then you mentioned that your os was on a game console and that your console, website and some other things were powered by it it may be doable. as for apis, use whats around. and there you have it. I am all in for shelling on a thing like this. I could do voice overs, for the thing if you wished, unfortunately I have not much free sfx, but generic sfx may be ok. another option if the devs at klango did not mind would to have a system, with a drive, and everything run klango, not as windows but as an os its already got an interface, clango is free and most stuff is online, though loads of things would have to be writen for it. I don't care for using it for much as it has issues with stability on here but still its doable. At 02:24 p.m. 17/08/2009, you wrote: Hi, Bryan said: hat needs to happen is some blind electronics and computer nerd needs to design a gaming console specifically for us, a console so innovative that it captures the attention of the media. It might prove our point to mainstream devs and it might not. My responce: Yes, and this is something I have put serious thought into for quite a while. I am pretty handy with computer electronics as well as with software development. However, the usual problems of time and money prevent me from actually following through with such an idea. Even assuming I actually constructed a working game console, wrote the operating system for it, created a game development API the cost of the thing would be out of the price range of most gamers here. Then, we have the problem, as has been discussed before, that not all of the accessible game developers are on the same page in terms of software development. Ideally the game console would have all of the games written in C++. Unfortunately, most of the accessible game developers here don't know C++ and depend on Windows only languages like Visual Basic. Clearly I would have to educate several accessible developers in C++, my API, etc just to get them to port their games to the console. As a result it is not at all a practical solution. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
