Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Chris Ilias nmo2@... writes: On 11-06-15 2:13 PM, PhillipJones wrote: That's typical of developers. If they don't use it, whether user it, it gone be daxxxed. Phillip, prejudice comments like that are not welcome here. In the past, you've spread a lot of misinformation about developers, Mozilla, SeaMonkey, and me, and smeared them with bigoted comments. Enough is enough. From now on, if you post an accusation against Mozilla, the SeaMonkey council, or developers, *without backing it up* , your post will be removed. What have they done to Sea Monkey composer? When you view the source code every event/3 words get their own line. Every line is indented at a different length. It's a mess. Because of this my HTML files have doubled in size. Please fix this or go back to an older version. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Seamonkey 2.1/2.2 breaking Java plugin support on Centos 5 Linux?
I'm a long-time user of Seamonkey, from since it was called Mozilla. The recent 2.1 and 2.2 updates seem to have broken Java support on my Centos 5.5 box (32 bits) and I really can't figure this out. Seamonkey is installed in /usr/local. Starting from 2.1, the /usr/local/seamonkey/plugins directory is gone. As per the release notes, plugins are now managed on a per-user basis in $HOME/.mozilla/plugins So far, so good. I used to have a link in /usr/local/seamonkey/plugins pointing to /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so (I install Sun's JREs in /usr/local too... it shows my BSD background I guess ) So I moved that link to $HOME/.mozilla/plugins but now about :plugins doesn't show any Java plugin detected. Worse, $HOME/.mozilla/seamonkey/profile name.default/pluginreg.dat shows that the plugin is rejected. It contains: [INVALID] /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so:$ 1232187965000:$ I've tried with the new plugin found in /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/lib/i386/libnpjp2.so too. Doesn't work either. I vaguely suspect that there might be a shared library issue with the newest Seamonkey binaries and Centos 5.5, but then every other plugin works OK, including Flash, Acrobat and all. So what's the issue with the Java plugin? There's no error when I start Seamonkey from a terminal window. Any help greatly appreciated, I must not be the only Seamonkey user on Centos 5.5, or so I hope Thanks for your time, _Alain_ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1/2.2 breaking Java plugin support on Centos 5 Linux?
On 12/07/2011 01:32, Alain Alain wrote: I'm a long-time user of Seamonkey, from since it was called Mozilla. The recent 2.1 and 2.2 updates seem to have broken Java support on my Centos 5.5 box (32 bits) and I really can't figure this out. Seamonkey is installed in /usr/local. Starting from 2.1, the /usr/local/seamonkey/plugins directory is gone. As per the release notes, plugins are now managed on a per-user basis in $HOME/.mozilla/plugins So far, so good. I used to have a link in /usr/local/seamonkey/plugins pointing to /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so (I install Sun's JREs in /usr/local too... it shows my BSD background I guess ) So I moved that link to $HOME/.mozilla/plugins but now about :plugins doesn't show any Java plugin detected. Worse, $HOME/.mozilla/seamonkey/profile name.default/pluginreg.dat shows that the plugin is rejected. It contains: [INVALID] /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so:$ 1232187965000:$ I've tried with the new plugin found in /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/lib/i386/libnpjp2.so too. Doesn't work either. I vaguely suspect that there might be a shared library issue with the newest Seamonkey binaries and Centos 5.5, but then every other plugin works OK, including Flash, Acrobat and all. So what's the issue with the Java plugin? There's no error when I start Seamonkey from a terminal window. Any help greatly appreciated, I must not be the only Seamonkey user on Centos 5.5, or so I hope Thanks for your time, _Alain_ Gecko dropped support for the OJI plugin. Don't know why the newer NPAPI plugin doesn't work. Perhaps it's a 32 vs 64 bit issue or a path issue. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1/2.2 breaking Java plugin support on Centos 5 Linux?
Alain Alain wrote: I'm a long-time user of Seamonkey, from since it was called Mozilla. The recent 2.1 and 2.2 updates seem to have broken Java support on my Centos 5.5 box (32 bits) and I really can't figure this out. Seamonkey is installed in /usr/local. Starting from 2.1, the /usr/local/seamonkey/plugins directory is gone. As per the release notes, plugins are now managed on a per-user basis in $HOME/.mozilla/plugins So far, so good. I used to have a link in /usr/local/seamonkey/plugins pointing to /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so (I install Sun's JREs in /usr/local too... it shows my BSD background I guess ) So I moved that link to $HOME/.mozilla/plugins but now about :plugins doesn't show any Java plugin detected. Worse, $HOME/.mozilla/seamonkey/profile name.default/pluginreg.dat shows that the plugin is rejected. It contains: [INVALID] /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/plugin/i386/ns7/libjavaplugin_oji.so:$ 1232187965000:$ I've tried with the new plugin found in /usr/local/jre1.6.0_12/lib/i386/libnpjp2.so too. Doesn't work either. I vaguely suspect that there might be a shared library issue with the newest Seamonkey binaries and Centos 5.5, but then every other plugin works OK, including Flash, Acrobat and all. So what's the issue with the Java plugin? There's no error when I start Seamonkey from a terminal window. Any help greatly appreciated, I must not be the only Seamonkey user on Centos 5.5, or so I hope Thanks for your time, _Alain_ I found a way to easily create a link to the java plugin. Right-click on the file lbnpjp2.so and select create link, then I cut and past the link into .mozilla/plugins in my home folder on openSUSE. The only difference is I have jdk1.6.0_26 installed in home and the path is jdk1.6.0_26/jre/lib/i386/libnpjp.so At a loss if that is what you did and it's not working. If you can, you really should update to Java version 1.6.0_26. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On 11-07-07 1:13 AM, Rufus wrote: MCBastos wrote: Guys, the gist of this discussion has been You don't understand... No, /you/ don't understand... No, it's you that doesn't understand... The discussion has gone nowhere and has gone on way too long. If you care to continue it, please take it to private email. -- Chris Ilias http://ilias.ca Newsgroup moderator ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On 07.07.2011 01:01, Chris Ilias wrote: --- Original Message --- On 11-07-07 1:13 AM, Rufus wrote: MCBastos wrote: Guys, the gist of this discussion has been You don't understand... No, /you/ don't understand... No, it's you that doesn't understand... The discussion has gone nowhere and has gone on way too long. If you care to continue it, please take it to private email. ... or mozilla.general where everyone can jump in. -- *Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion* www.ufaq.org Netscape - Firefox - SeaMonkey - Thunderbird ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Interviewed by CNN on 06/07/2011 19:03, Rufus told the world: No. You just don't understand what I'm getting at. I'm not saying bring Mozilla to iOS. I'm saying it's not impossible to duplicate the SM experience using WebKit. For a given, very particular, very limited definition of SM experience... A Webkit SM won't run extensions available for Gecko SM A Webkit SM won't render pages the same as Gecko SM Those two, taken together, mean that the user experience *will not* be the same. Ergo, the experience cannot be duplicated. q.e.d. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Multivac. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus wrote: Bill Davidsen wrote: Rufus wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world: Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform. You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine (the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor extension ecosystem... Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome. ...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care about much more than that, from a user standpoint. SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's. The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple won't allow Gecko in the App Store. Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's not impossible, it's not prohibited...the SM folks just don't want to do an iOS implementation of SM functionality. Fine, but a pity. Atomic gets me half of what I want anyway...I'm pretty sure NewsTap will get me the rest. I don't think you understand, it most definitely *is* prohibited, and don't want shows completely no grasp of finite resources or the cost of setting up a distribution channel which would work outside the Apple app store, since SM would not be allowed, however done. Apple claims that a choice of products confuses users, or some such. Google for Jobs+competition+confusion or something, I think the speech is on youtube. I doubt explaining this more clearly will help, your world view seems pretty set. No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. I look, Apple still prohibits competive browsers. You must use the WebKit browser or be removed. Note: when work started I suggested switching from Gecko to WebKit to avoid some of the issues (yes, I'm aware that raises others). Robert though I was trolling, but that was my honest opinion. Gecko does too much and therefore changes too much. The other side of that is Gecko does too much so you don't have to. I'm happy to let Robert make the call, I just don't think having the rendering engine do the whole UI is a great idea unless you control it. Clearly Mozilla at best treats Seamonkey as a 2nd class citizen in some ways. robert felt a true split was not feasible, that's his call. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 06/07/2011 19:03, Rufus told the world: No. You just don't understand what I'm getting at. I'm not saying bring Mozilla to iOS. I'm saying it's not impossible to duplicate the SM experience using WebKit. For a given, very particular, very limited definition of SM experience... A Webkit SM won't run extensions available for Gecko SM A Webkit SM won't render pages the same as Gecko SM Yes, and I've begun to notice web page designers having two (or more?) versions of their pages - Google is an example. If you surf Google with iOS Safari you will get a page optimized for the iPad and a link to display the desktop version Google page - which iOS Safari will display, but poorly. (if web designers can do this, I can't explain why they all still can't browser sniff correctly...) I expect I'll notice more of this as I use my iPad more - I've only had it about a month or so, and have yet to travel with it or actually depend on it for any length of time as a faux netbook. Those two, taken together, mean that the user experience *will not* be the same. Ergo, the experience cannot be duplicated. q.e.d. Not really. Think in terms of features first and foremost - accuracy of translation. Features - within limitations, as I've said/accepted...maybe I should be saying replicate vice duplicate? The point would be to offer some/most of the functional things SM can do that Safari doesn't - let's start with tabs, for example. Tabs are *the* reason I use Atomic over Safari on my iPad. And other simple things - like being able to designate and store a Home page and have a Home button - iOS Safari doesn't do that, but Atomic does. A second (and my most) desirable SM port would be an integrated usenet reader/mail app - presently there is only one that I can find: NewsTap. While it's a great app and I'm very happy with it, it's still not like using an integrated suite - which is another of *the* big features I like/prefer about the Netscape/Mozilla Suite/SM collection historically. Thirdly and most important would be the SM graphical interface - looks. I find Atomic to be very SM-like (it even supports limited theme color choice - and has tabs), which is which is why I like it. Does it function exactly like SM? No...but I can understand and live with that. My experience of Atomic is similar to my experience of desktop SM. Sure - present add ons, etc. wouldn't be supported - functions of more popular ones like spoofing could be built in as it is win both iOS Safari and Atomic. Support add-ons in the future? Wide open... But I could/would still have something I'd be familiar with - and it's that familiarity that's the crux of what I'm trying to get at. iOS Safari doesn't behave much like OS X Safari, and iOS Safari isn't nearly as fully featured but both still feel like Safari. It doesn't have to be exact, and I didn't mean to imply that, if that's what came across. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Bill Davidsen wrote: Rufus wrote: Bill Davidsen wrote: Rufus wrote: No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. I look, Apple still prohibits competive browsers. You must use the WebKit browser or be removed. We're back to the definition of browser vs what tech or code underlying that browser is. When you say browser I think product...I want and care about the *product*, not the tech or code. Macro vs micro. As a *user* I don't care a whit about the underlying code...there are pages of fully functioning browsers on the App Store, and they all compete - they all do something or another different from each other, and/or have different user interfaces. I don't care one iota that they are all WebKit based as long as I can find one (or more) that *does* what I *want* it to do, and allows me to do it easily. Put nuts and bolts aside - just think about accomplishing the *task*. That's the POV I'm taking. Note: when work started I suggested switching from Gecko to WebKit to avoid some of the issues (yes, I'm aware that raises others). Robert though I was trolling, but that was my honest opinion. Gecko does too much and therefore changes too much. The other side of that is Gecko does too much so you don't have to. I'm on board with that too - everyone gets an opinion. I'm just trying to separate out for myself which is what, and why. I'm happy to let Robert make the call, I just don't think having the rendering engine do the whole UI is a great idea unless you control it. Clearly Mozilla at best treats Seamonkey as a 2nd class citizen in some ways. robert felt a true split was not feasible, that's his call. And that's ok by me too - as I've said, SM for iOS is new business proposal, and the folks whom actually run the biz get to make the decisions. Their decision is no. And now that I've heard some of the *actual* reasons for those decisions I can see their true side of things. But at least some people actually did some thinking, and that's never a bad thing. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus schrieb: I got that a *long* time ago...in point of fact I knew that going in. A Mozilla based app is clearly *not* what I'm asking for And it's outside the abilities of the SeaMonkey team to produce a non-Mozilla-based app, so please just let this thread end. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus schrieb: ...and I'm ok with the Webkit usage requirement. Never said I didn't believe that. And we are unable to build a SeaMonkey based on WebKit, due to requiring XUL for our current code and not being able to re-write the whole app on something else due to resource constraints (and just not wanting to - which is argument #1 in a volunteer community). Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: ...and I'm ok with the Webkit usage requirement. Never said I didn't believe that. And we are unable to build a SeaMonkey based on WebKit, due to requiring XUL for our current code and not being able to re-write the whole app on something else due to resource constraints (and just not wanting to - which is argument #1 in a volunteer community). Robert Kaiser That's what I was looking to hear. Not that it's impossible. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: I got that a *long* time ago...in point of fact I knew that going in. A Mozilla based app is clearly *not* what I'm asking for And it's outside the abilities of the SeaMonkey team to produce a non-Mozilla-based app, so please just let this thread end. Robert Kaiser I doubt that...I've got all sorts of faith in your abilities. If your resources are limited, that's something else altogether. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst complainers ever
Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: I got that a *long* time ago...in point of fact I knew that going in. A Mozilla based app is clearly *not* what I'm asking for And it's outside the abilities of the SeaMonkey team to produce a non-Mozilla-based app, so please just let this thread end. Robert Kaiser I doubt that...I've got all sorts of faith in your abilities. If your resources are limited, that's something else altogether. ...so, volunteer. It sounds like you've got more interest in seeing this happen than everyone else here put together. So, DO IT. We've got all sorts of faith in _your_ abilities. ;) -JW ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst complainers ever
J. Weaver Jr. wrote: Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: I got that a *long* time ago...in point of fact I knew that going in. A Mozilla based app is clearly *not* what I'm asking for And it's outside the abilities of the SeaMonkey team to produce a non-Mozilla-based app, so please just let this thread end. Robert Kaiser I doubt that...I've got all sorts of faith in your abilities. If your resources are limited, that's something else altogether. ...so, volunteer. It sounds like you've got more interest in seeing this happen than everyone else here put together. So, DO IT. We've got all sorts of faith in _your_ abilities. ;) -JW ...then your faith is misplaced considering that I'm not a coder, but I am considering it. Of course, I couldn't wouldn't have any affiliation with the SM team...for the reasons they point out. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: ...and I'm ok with the Webkit usage requirement. Never said I didn't believe that. And we are unable to build a SeaMonkey based on WebKit, due to requiring XUL for our current code and not being able to re-write the whole app on something else due to resource constraints (and just not wanting to - which is argument #1 in a volunteer community). Robert Kaiser That's what I was looking to hear. Not that it's impossible. Look Rufus. You have now strayed far off the topic of criticizing Seamonkey 2.1. Really, your rants belong in the/an advocacy group, rather than a support/help group. And anyway SM 2.1 is now history, with 2.2 supposed to be announced today, and according to Justin Wood (Callek) 2.3 due in 6-7 weeks from now, and on the new release schedule more versions soon thereafter in rapid succession. :) Remember that each new version/release brings with it a whole new bag of goodies and bugs. So if you want to vent, switch now to 2.2. -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Some of topic: Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
PhillipJones wrote: Rufus wrote: Actually, 2.3 might be something I could be interested in. Maybe. Too many things are changing in the Mac world at once... My big fear remains the Lion OS, it's iOS-like full screen app implementation (which I hope I can turn off, or find a hack to turn off) and what that is going to mean for everyone. Frankly, I'm more concerned about functionality of current app implementations under Lion than I am about the apps (like SM) themselves. That being said, I'm not in a mode to update/upgrade most of my software until I get a dose of what Lion really will or won't do for me. If I do grab the Lion OS then I'll be mostly starting from scratch and it may make more sense for me to move to SM 2.3 and beyond. Util then I'll be holding onto SM 2.0.14. Lion will absolutely kill Classic and PPC code. Intel only and Universal Binary work fine. Yes...something I have/maintain is a ton of 3D animation content (which is a major reason I'm not in the least interested in Linux) and while that content will still work, their installers are probably not going to work! Now that *is* a conundrum...and I have a lot more stuff like this. I am looking at the prospect of a 1-1/2 drive to go to an Apple store download and install OSX.7. I have a LaCie hard drive set which I may just buy another removable drive for and replicate my current internal drive...make a dual-boot system. Other than that, I'll likely end up buying a new '27 iMac once I can get one with Lion installed...Mini first, though. For my AV setup. And there being key components in my recent install of Web Premium CS5.5 That are still written in PPC Code. So one of my web premium Applications may not work as they should. One thing you can do to get a read is open System Profiler, select Applications and sort on Kind - that will tell you exactly what you have, system wide on all connected disks. Then you can segregate your non-Intel stuff from the rest if you want to go that way. But I also worry about this new full screen interface...after the taste of it I've had on my iPad I can see that seriously affecting my workflow, and my application selection choices. So clean slate with a new machine may be my best option forward. I've got too many machines as it is...ugggh...Lions ability to use whole disk encryption may force the issue of using SSDs, too - to make up speed. We use WDE at work, and it's a PITA. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst complainers ever
Interviewed by CNN on 05/07/2011 14:44, J. Weaver Jr. told the world: Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: I got that a *long* time ago...in point of fact I knew that going in. A Mozilla based app is clearly *not* what I'm asking for And it's outside the abilities of the SeaMonkey team to produce a non-Mozilla-based app, so please just let this thread end. Robert Kaiser I doubt that...I've got all sorts of faith in your abilities. If your resources are limited, that's something else altogether. ...so, volunteer. It sounds like you've got more interest in seeing this happen than everyone else here put together. So, DO IT. We've got all sorts of faith in _your_ abilities. ;) -JW I had a bit of an inspiration regarding this discussion. In the end, it all hinges in different definitions of Mozilla, Browser, Mozilla product, Seamonkey and such. Most of us here define those things from the inside out. Rufus looks at the surface only. - We consider a product a browser only if it has its own browser engine. - Rufus does not care about browser engine; he makes no distinction between browser and shells. - We consider something a Mozilla product only if its built on Mozilla technology. - Rufus considers something a Mozilla product if it has the appropriate name slapped on top. - We look at the Mozilla project and see the underlying technology. - Rufus looks at it and sees product branding. - We define Seamonkey at least in part through its genealogy and evolution, that is, as the successor to the Mozilla suite and Netscape. - Rufus looks at it and see a browser and an e-mail client tacked together. By *our* definitions, it's impossible to make a iOS version of Seamonkey, because we can't use the most essential piece of the Mozilla technology, that is, the Gecko engine. Without Gecko, it's no longer Seamonkey, period. By *his* definition, only the surface matters, so it should be possible to build an entirely new, superficially similar but technologically incompatible product and slap the Seamonkey label on top. And yes, it might be possible to build such a browser-plus-email combo for iOS, building on top of the native Webkit. Only this would bear no resemblance to a Mozilla or Seamonkey product, on several levels. Even the surface (the user interface) would necessarily be different from the desktop product; touch-and-physics interface in a small screen is fundamentally different from point-and-click in a big screen. Look at how little the Mobile Firefox UI resembles the desktop Firefox UI. Some other team might be interested in doing such a project. From what I have gathered here, nobody at the Seamonkey team is. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Amstrad PCW. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst complainers ever
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 05/07/2011 14:44, J. Weaver Jr. told the world: Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: I got that a *long* time ago...in point of fact I knew that going in. A Mozilla based app is clearly *not* what I'm asking for And it's outside the abilities of the SeaMonkey team to produce a non-Mozilla-based app, so please just let this thread end. Robert Kaiser I doubt that...I've got all sorts of faith in your abilities. If your resources are limited, that's something else altogether. ...so, volunteer. It sounds like you've got more interest in seeing this happen than everyone else here put together. So, DO IT. We've got all sorts of faith in _your_ abilities. ;) -JW I had a bit of an inspiration regarding this discussion. In the end, it all hinges in different definitions of Mozilla, Browser, Mozilla product, Seamonkey and such. Most of us here define those things from the inside out. Rufus looks at the surface only. - We consider a product a browser only if it has its own browser engine. - Rufus does not care about browser engine; he makes no distinction between browser and shells. - We consider something a Mozilla product only if its built on Mozilla technology. - Rufus considers something a Mozilla product if it has the appropriate name slapped on top. - We look at the Mozilla project and see the underlying technology. - Rufus looks at it and sees product branding. - We define Seamonkey at least in part through its genealogy and evolution, that is, as the successor to the Mozilla suite and Netscape. - Rufus looks at it and see a browser and an e-mail client tacked together. By *our* definitions, it's impossible to make a iOS version of Seamonkey, because we can't use the most essential piece of the Mozilla technology, that is, the Gecko engine. Without Gecko, it's no longer Seamonkey, period. By *his* definition, only the surface matters, so it should be possible to build an entirely new, superficially similar but technologically incompatible product and slap the Seamonkey label on top. And yes, it might be possible to build such a browser-plus-email combo for iOS, building on top of the native Webkit. Only this would bear no resemblance to a Mozilla or Seamonkey product, on several levels. Even the surface (the user interface) would necessarily be different from the desktop product; touch-and-physics interface in a small screen is fundamentally different from point-and-click in a big screen. Look at how little the Mobile Firefox UI resembles the desktop Firefox UI. Some other team might be interested in doing such a project. From what I have gathered here, nobody at the Seamonkey team is. Very, very close...I only added branding to the discussion because this is a business venture of sorts IMO, but I really meant something a bit deeper than that - User Experience. What I really meant to get across was a POV from a strictly *user* standpoint. Someone once mentioned that the team is short on member UE background, and now I can see that in action. But you got me right - nuts and bolts vs the user experience of, and interaction with, the product. The user experience *is* the product from the user POV, and why the user *keeps* using the product...not what the user can't see. That was/is my point. And that's the where, what, and why of why I've been talking in terms of feature set and functionality - as a user, as long as it looks, behaves, and feels like SM and comes from the same team it *is* SM no matter what technology or code it is based upon and that the user can't see, touch...or even understand the details of in most cases - including my own. Maintain a user interface and feature set, and to a *user* it's still the same product - even if the code changes or technical platform limitations are encountered as with iCab and Opera Mobile. But I get where the team is coming from now that the *true* actualities and philosophies behind the impossible stance have surfaced - I personally don't accept that much of anything is impossible...it's just not how I live. Still...I'm glad at least *somebody* gets the gist of my philosophy. There *won't* be an iOS version of SM, and at this point I'm not even sure one would be useful given my growing familiarity with the iOS whole screen interface; which is another seed I've tried to plant as a generality for people to just plain think about no matter what they are developing. That general interface approach is coming fast, and I for one am still a bit puzzled by it...can't say I like it much. Anyway, what I really wanted out of such a *new* SM product for iOS was it's usnet reader - I've since found one (NewsTap - the only one for iOS presently, so a market is out there) and it's actually pretty nicely featured. Personally, I'd have zero problem *paying* the SM team or anyone 99 cents - or more - for such an app...if it were a good one. --
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote: No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off. Thank you. Phil The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period. The you don't want to swim in their pool?..fine. Just say so. But It's not impossible. Just flat not. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote: No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off. Thank you. Phil The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period. The you don't want to swim in their pool?..fine. Just say so. But It's not impossible. Just flat not. there is one thing that Apple doesn't allow on the Mac. It was banned 6 month after it came out: Active-X Netscape communicator had a Active-X plugin. Apple ut out a notice after 6 month saying they found Active-X far more dangerous than JavaScript or Even Java. (this was back at a time) when The security Java was questioned. back in the late 90's They did a software update and the plugin would no longer function. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
PhillipJones wrote: Rufus wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote: No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off. Thank you. Phil The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period. The you don't want to swim in their pool?..fine. Just say so. But It's not impossible. Just flat not. there is one thing that Apple doesn't allow on the Mac. It was banned 6 month after it came out: Active-X Netscape communicator had a Active-X plugin. Apple ut out a notice after 6 month saying they found Active-X far more dangerous than JavaScript or Even Java. (this was back at a time) when The security Java was questioned. back in the late 90's They did a software update and the plugin would no longer function. And that's fine by me - we don't allow Active-X on the PCs where I work, for security reasons. And as a Mac user I'm pretty sure Active-X has never run on a Mac...but feel free to inform me otherwise. Same for Flash in the iPad, and frankly I've considered removing Flash from my Macs seeing as how I use a few add-ons to block it anyway - I don't care about such implementation considerations other than that the device performs the services and functions I need/desire/require within the devices given environment. All the rest is just about platform operating framework. I do fully understand that in the case of SM I'm talking about a *brand new* product - that certainly isn't impossible or not allowed, and there are a whole host of non-Apple branded browsing apps on Apples store ranging from iOS mobile versions of Opera to iCab. Mercury is garnering my attention over Atomic, and there is a Chrome-like one that looks pretty nice to me too. It's just a matter of wanting to bring a brand new product to market...if the answer is no, then that's the real answer and I can live with that. I'll just have to shop elsewhere for what I want, but that won't (and shouldn't) stop me or anyone else from asking for what they want. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Interviewed by CNN on 04/07/2011 18:16, Rufus told the world: I do fully understand that in the case of SM I'm talking about a *brand new* product - that certainly isn't impossible or not allowed, and there are a whole host of non-Apple branded browsing apps on Apples store ranging from iOS mobile versions of Opera to iCab. Mercury is garnering my attention over Atomic, and there is a Chrome-like one that looks pretty nice to me too. It's just a matter of wanting to bring a brand new product to market...if the answer is no, then that's the real answer and I can live with that. I'll just have to shop elsewhere for what I want, but that won't (and shouldn't) stop me or anyone else from asking for what they want. OK, let me try to parse it in very small pieces of information so you can digest them: There are basically two things that define what a Mozilla browser is: the rendering features (speed, standards support and such) and the interface features. The rendering is defined by the Gecko engine. Apple does not allow an iOS app to have its own HTML rendering engine. Apps can only use the built-in Webkit engine, the same one Safari uses. Apple won't digitally sign a Gecko-containing app, and Apple won't carry it on the AppStore. The only way to distribute such an app would be through alternative stores such as Cydia. The problem is, those are a very small fraction of the iOS userbase. So it's a lot less attractive market. So a Gecko-containing Firefox/Seamonkey is plain out of the picture. Let's talk then about a Gecko-less browser shell, which would use the built-in Webkit browser. That's what is actually available for iOS, not full browsers. Atomic is a browser shell. To be worthy of being called Firefox/Seamonkey, this browser shell would have to offer similar user interface features to the other Android, Maemo, Windows, Mac and Linux versions. Otherwise it's not Firefox, it's just something different (and lesser) with the Firefox brand tacked on. A very big feature in the Mozilla platform is the extension framework, which allows customizing the interface and adding features. There's a large extension ecosystem already built. An iOS Firefox would be expected to run the same extensions available for other platforms or, at the very least, to demand few modifications to extensions in order to run them. Demanding extension developers to start from scratch on iOS-only extensions is just not the same. The problem is, extensions run on a framework called XUL. XUL is built into the Gecko rendering engine. The Webkit rendering engine available on iOS does not include XUL. The extension framework in Webkit is far poorer than XUL, in fact. There are several extension developers on record saying that they won't port their extensions to Chrome or Safari because these browsers lack the features the extensions rely on. So any browser built for iOS will NECESSARILY exclude both the rendering features and the extension framework that define the Mozilla browsers. So, Mozilla might make a browser shell for iOS and call it Firefox, but it wouldn't look or behave much like Firefox. That's essentially what you are asking for. So I ask, what's the point of having it on the first place? There's another, more serious point. Mozilla is a non-profit foundation. It's not run to make money, it's run to fulfill the mission objectives stated on its charter. Part of its mission is to help keep the Internet open and free. Letting a corporation -- ANY corporation -- to dictate what should be the priorities in browser engine development goes against that mission. So, attaching the Mozilla brand to another rendering engine goes against those goals. Just to stay on an issue that is real, it's happening now: Web Video formats. Apple chose to side with the patent-encumbered H.264 video codec, while Mozilla (and Google, incidentally) defend the use of the patent-free WebM format. The Webkit rendering engine in iOS does not support WebM (the one in Chrome does, but it's different variant of Webkit). If Mozilla made a iOS/Webkit browser shell, it wouldn't be able to support WebM. Meaning that Mozilla would be lending their brand to an encumbered solution, one that they are opposed to. There might still be a Firefox in the future of iOS, though. But, unless Apple relaxes its restrictions, it won't render pages inside the Apple device. Instead, it would do something similar to what Opera Lite does, and pre-render the page in external servers. There's already talk of such a product, partly in order to offer a browsing alternative for phones with very little processing capacity (dumbphones). -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my HOLMES IV. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 04/07/2011 18:16, Rufus told the world: I do fully understand that in the case of SM I'm talking about a *brand new* product - that certainly isn't impossible or not allowed, and there are a whole host of non-Apple branded browsing apps on Apples store ranging from iOS mobile versions of Opera to iCab. Mercury is garnering my attention over Atomic, and there is a Chrome-like one that looks pretty nice to me too. It's just a matter of wanting to bring a brand new product to market...if the answer is no, then that's the real answer and I can live with that. I'll just have to shop elsewhere for what I want, but that won't (and shouldn't) stop me or anyone else from asking for what they want. OK, let me try to parse it in very small pieces of information so you can digest them: There are basically two things that define what a Mozilla browser is: the rendering features (speed, standards support and such) and the interface features. The rendering is defined by the Gecko engine. Apple does not allow an iOS app to have its own HTML rendering engine. Apps can only use the built-in Webkit engine, the same one Safari uses. Apple won't digitally sign a Gecko-containing app, and Apple won't carry it on the AppStore. The only way to distribute such an app would be through alternative stores such as Cydia. The problem is, those are a very small fraction of the iOS userbase. So it's a lot less attractive market. So a Gecko-containing Firefox/Seamonkey is plain out of the picture. I got that a *long* time ago...in point of fact I knew that going in. A Mozilla based app is clearly *not* what I'm asking for - I have said previously that I know I'm asking for a new product...one for iOS, containing the SM interface/feature set. Yes - that means *new* code; but *same* features - tabs, Managers, integrated Mail suite - and feel. SM-like is still SM, to the user. Let's talk then about a Gecko-less browser shell, which would use the built-in Webkit browser. That's what is actually available for iOS, not full browsers. Atomic is a browser shell. To me as a *user* - Atomic, Mercury, Opera Mobile, All in One browser - are all browsers, available from the Apple App Store. I don't care how they work, I care *that* they work and that I have choices. To me as a *coder* - having to use the built in Webkit browser means I have to write less code. Which makes me happier, as I all I need do is design an interface based on a set of feature specifications. I still end up with a browser when I'm finished. SM, Firefox, Thunderbird and any other Mozilla app all share code and to some extent features...I see having to use Webkit as no different from that, from a point of principle. New code, same biz model. To be worthy of being called Firefox/Seamonkey, this browser shell would have to offer similar user interface features to the other Android, Maemo, Windows, Mac and Linux versions. Otherwise it's not Firefox, it's just something different (and lesser) with the Firefox brand tacked on. A very big feature in the Mozilla platform is the extension framework, which allows customizing the interface and adding features. There's a large extension ecosystem already built. An iOS Firefox would be expected to run the same extensions available for other platforms or, at the very least, to demand few modifications to extensions in order to run them. Demanding extension developers to start from scratch on iOS-only extensions is just not the same. The problem is, extensions run on a framework called XUL. XUL is built into the Gecko rendering engine. The Webkit rendering engine available on iOS does not include XUL. The extension framework in Webkit is far poorer than XUL, in fact. There are several extension developers on record saying that they won't port their extensions to Chrome or Safari because these browsers lack the features the extensions rely on. So any browser built for iOS will NECESSARILY exclude both the rendering features and the extension framework that define the Mozilla browsers. So, Mozilla might make a browser shell for iOS and call it Firefox, but it wouldn't look or behave much like Firefox. That's essentially what you are asking for. So I ask, what's the point of having it on the first place? The *point* is trying to bring/maintain a consistent user experience on yet another platform into the SM arsenal. I have a big fear that Apple is actually heading this way in the reverse (and not to my liking) direction - that the Lion OS is going to make my desktop look more like my iPad; re: full screen apps. In that case, I find *far* less utility to using a consolidated suite like SM unless I can get SM Mail.app presented to me in a tab (which I think I have been told is on the SM roadmap) vice a separate window. Interface and human factors issues, but issues which are going to have to be addressed at some point. You're getting
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On 7/4/11, Rufus n...@home.com wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote: No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off. Thank you. Phil The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period. The you don't want to swim in their pool?..fine. Just say so. But It's not impossible. Just flat not. The app store guidelines disagree w/ you. http://www.cultofmac.com/heres-the-full-text-of-apples-new-app-store-guidelines/58590 2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit framework and WebKit Javascript Can this thread die now? Please? Lee ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Lee wrote: On 7/4/11, Rufusn...@home.com wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote: No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off. Thank you. Phil The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period. The you don't want to swim in their pool?..fine. Just say so. But It's not impossible. Just flat not. The app store guidelines disagree w/ you. http://www.cultofmac.com/heres-the-full-text-of-apples-new-app-store-guidelines/58590 2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit framework and WebKit Javascript Can this thread die now? Please? Lee ...well, then...someone better advise Apple of it's own guidelines, because there's a ton of Safari competitors on the App Store. There's also Garage Band competitors on there too... -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Lee wrote: On 7/4/11, Rufusn...@home.com wrote: Philip Chee wrote: On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote: No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off. Thank you. Phil The premise that Apple won't allow is simply false - period. The you don't want to swim in their pool?..fine. Just say so. But It's not impossible. Just flat not. The app store guidelines disagree w/ you. http://www.cultofmac.com/heres-the-full-text-of-apples-new-app-store-guidelines/58590 2.17 Apps that browse the web must use the iOS WebKit framework and WebKit Javascript Can this thread die now? Please? Lee ...and I'm ok with the Webkit usage requirement. Never said I didn't believe that. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world: Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform. You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine (the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor extension ecosystem... Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome. ...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care about much more than that, from a user standpoint. SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's. The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple won't allow Gecko in the App Store. Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's not impossible, it's not prohibited...the SM folks just don't want to do an iOS implementation of SM functionality. Fine, but a pity. Atomic gets me half of what I want anyway...I'm pretty sure NewsTap will get me the rest. I don't think you understand, it most definitely *is* prohibited, and don't want shows completely no grasp of finite resources or the cost of setting up a distribution channel which would work outside the Apple app store, since SM would not be allowed, however done. Apple claims that a choice of products confuses users, or some such. Google for Jobs+competition+confusion or something, I think the speech is on youtube. I doubt explaining this more clearly will help, your world view seems pretty set. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world: No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big, subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I also realize this means a *new* product. What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get. The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler. I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. Biggest limitation with iOS that I can discern is file transfer...but I can live with hardware/OS limitations, interface issues can in general always be evolved. You are solving the problem from the wrong end, scrap IOS, install Linux, run real SM and be happy. Or at least if you aren't happy you can complain in another group and about different things. ;-) -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
cyberzen wrote: MCBastos a écrit : Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 05:11, cyberzen told the world: MCBastos a écrit : Now and then I click on the wrong status bar icon and open it when what I wanted was another module... what about quitting coffee ? Joke all you want, but those are closely-spaced 16px icons. It's not that hard to click on the wrong one. sorry have you tried CuteButtons Chrystal SVG these little icons make a little tilt when high lighted... Care to provide a place to try, since to 2.1 add-on search function seems hard linked to the Didn't find anything learn more about add-ons screen. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Bill Davidsen wrote: Rufus wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world: Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform. You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine (the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor extension ecosystem... Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome. ...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care about much more than that, from a user standpoint. SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's. The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple won't allow Gecko in the App Store. Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's not impossible, it's not prohibited...the SM folks just don't want to do an iOS implementation of SM functionality. Fine, but a pity. Atomic gets me half of what I want anyway...I'm pretty sure NewsTap will get me the rest. I don't think you understand, it most definitely *is* prohibited, and don't want shows completely no grasp of finite resources or the cost of setting up a distribution channel which would work outside the Apple app store, since SM would not be allowed, however done. Apple claims that a choice of products confuses users, or some such. Google for Jobs+competition+confusion or something, I think the speech is on youtube. I doubt explaining this more clearly will help, your world view seems pretty set. No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
chicagofan wrote: James E. Morrow wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on, see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla - which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final release. :) I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-) Robert Kaiser As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception, allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward. Thank you Robert. Same here... another long time reader of this ng and SM user, who greatly appreciates Robert's contribution to the continuation of SM, and helping all of us along the way. Hope you don't stay too far away, Robert. :) bj 2nd that, I have disagreed with Robert at times, but never doubted his efforts represented his best solution to whatever problem was at hand, and were not chosen to be the least work, other than when even the least work was a strain on resources. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Bill Davidsen wrote: Rufus wrote: MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world: No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big, subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I also realize this means a *new* product. What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get. The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler. I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. Biggest limitation with iOS that I can discern is file transfer...but I can live with hardware/OS limitations, interface issues can in general always be evolved. You are solving the problem from the wrong end, scrap IOS, install Linux, run real SM and be happy. Or at least if you aren't happy you can complain in another group and about different things. ;-) iOS is just fine...it's young, and it just need to be taught what to do, and how to do it. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On Sun, 03 Jul 2011 17:32:08 -0700, Rufus wrote: No, I don't think *you* understand. Go to the Apple App store and do a search on browser - you will find pages of iPad and iPhone browsers that *directly* compete with Apples Safari browser...I may have even found another one that I like better than Atomic...and I like Atomic better than Safari. To say that Apple won't allow competing software on the App store only tells me that you haven't done much surfing on the App store. Go look. Rufus, when you are in a hole, please stop digging. And please go educate yourself on the issue before continuing to sprout off. Thank you. Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Problems with SeaMonkey 2.1
Hi, I recently upgraded SeaMonkey from Ver. 2.0.14 to 2.1. The lethal results were: 1. I lost the Status Bar while in Mail mode. It is there in BROWSING, COMPOSER, ADDRESS BOOK CHAT ZILLA modes, but not when the Mail List is displayed. 2. While composing a msg, I used to have a horizontal tool bar under the SUBJECT row, where I had buttons to enable me increase/decrease size of fonts, color the text, control the direction of text, add Smilies and more functions. This tool bar now is completely gone. Vanished! Can anybody please help me with restoring those two bars? Thanks ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Problems with SeaMonkey 2.1
Avraham Ariel wrote: 1. I lost the Status Bar while in Mail mode. It is there in BROWSING, COMPOSER, ADDRESS BOOK CHAT ZILLA modes, but not when the Mail List is displayed. This can be caused by incompatible extensions, in this case MailNews-related ones. For me it was Mailbox Alert 0.14.5 (fixed version available from addons.mozilla.org). Disable add-ons in the Add-ons Manager until you found the culprit, then check whether a fixed version is available for it. 2. While composing a msg, I used to have a horizontal tool bar under the SUBJECT row, where I had buttons to enable me increase/decrease size of fonts, color the text, control the direction of text, add Smilies and more functions. This tool bar now is completely gone. Vanished! That toolbar is only available if you compose HTML mails. You probably switched to text-only composition. You can choose between the two using the drop-down next to the Compose icon, or holding Shift while clicking it (also works for Reply/Reply All/Forward). HTH Jens -- Jens Hatlak http://jens.hatlak.de/ SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker http://smtt.blogspot.com/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Problems with SeaMonkey 2.1
Avraham Ariel wrote: Hi, I recently upgraded SeaMonkey from Ver. 2.0.14 to 2.1. The lethal results were: 1. I lost the Status Bar while in Mail mode. It is there in BROWSING, COMPOSER, ADDRESS BOOK CHAT ZILLA modes, but not when the Mail List is displayed. 2. While composing a msg, I used to have a horizontal tool bar under the SUBJECT row, where I had buttons to enable me increase/decrease size of fonts, color the text, control the direction of text, add Smilies and more functions. This tool bar now is completely gone. Vanished! Can anybody please help me with restoring those two bars? Thanks Well 2 looks like you used to compose in HTML, and somehow you may have changed to text mode. But don't worry, 2.2 is on the way, already released as BETA. So even if it's a 2.1 bug (I doubt it) prepare for a whole new and different basket of adventures. -- Rostyk ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: SeaMonkey 2.1
Jens Hatlak wrote: Bill Davidsen wrote: I'll probably get my post taken down for this, but wouldn't it be easier to provide a compatibility check disable in about:config that actually WORKS instead of having some of us creating hacked xpi files and others staying with old versions because they can't or won't? First of all, I don't see why anyone would kill a post with such content. The situation with SM regarding incompatible extensions can be summarized as follows: First, there are two (10 ;-)) kind of extensions: Those that declare compatibility with at least some version of SM (let's call them used to work), and those that don't (let's call them unsupported). For extensions that used to work (like QuoteCollapse), you can simply install the Add-on Compatibility Reporter from AMO. It is currently compatible with all SM versions from 2.1 (stable) through 2.4a1 (trunk). This has the added benefit over simply setting the compatibility prefs yourself (which you don't have to remember to set anymore!) that you can let the extension authors know that their versions still work with the SM version you are using. Unsupported extensions however are different. They cannot be installed or enabled in SM at all unless you hack their install.rdf (or someone releases a new, supported version of course). Sometimes that's unfortunate since the author just blindly removed SM support from install.rdf, but it certainly is the safest thing to do as a default. To my knowledge, there is no extension that automatically hacks install.rdf for you (which, in the case of a download/install, would have to happen in between the download and the install!). The system, as outlined above, is part of the Mozilla platform (i.e. shared with Firefox). Consequently, any change to it needs to be made to the platform code, which is under Firefox development ruling. I'd assume that any request regarding install.rdf hacking (even pref-guarded) would be turned down, so I wouldn't bother trying. Currently there is a compatibility check which can be disabled, but setting it doesn't disable compatibility checking! That's kind of a waste. There was (is) also another check disable, which I can't find quickly in my notes, something like: extensions.checkCompatibility.2.1 or similar, which actually did something, but doesn't seem to any more (which is why I don't have it enabled currently). If there were a config to ignore compatibility checking beyond the first (major) number, it would at least give people a chance to try things. I assume that the reason people work on Seamonkey is because they want people to use it, therefore an option to disable at least some of the checks would be really useful. This *is* use at your own risk software, and an option is WAY safer than having users fiddling inside install.rdf. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 text
Philip Chee wrote: On 13/06/2011 08:21, bern...@nospam.com wrote: I have just installed Seamonkey 2.1 over the last version 2.0.14. In any event something seems strange to me. The text in the browser window looks like a printer running out of ink. The letters are there but the text is not clean. It looks like letters are not fully inked as a printer running out of ink. As I type this it is not evident in this email, but on the browser pages and bookmarks, the text is not right. This was not true in the last version. This only has happened since I upgraded a few minutes ago. Please advise. Bernie If you are on WindowsXP try playing around with the following preferences: // use cleartype rendering for downloadable fonts (win xp only) pref(gfx.font_rendering.cleartype.use_for_downloadable_fonts, true); // use cleartype rendering for all fonts always (win xp only) pref(gfx.font_rendering.cleartype.always_use_for_content, false); Phil Found the problem. Downloaded Firefox 5.0 Had the same exact problem with text in bookmarks and certain sites like slickdeals.net. Updated my video drivers. No help. Looked on Mozilla Firefox forum for some similar problems. Found one guy shut off hardware acceleration and fixed a weird letter spacing problem he had. Shut off hardware acceleration in Firefox. Problem gone. I expect the same when I reinstall Seamonkey 2.1 or 2.2 when available. Bernie ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Growing pains with Seamonkey 2.1
Craig wrote: 2. In going to other pages, I have gotten a warning bar about re-directing. I clicked allow there and it didn't happen again. I know there must be a setting someplace, but I cannot find it (and I even checked the FAQ this time). Preferences - Appearance - Content - Warn me when web sites try to redirect... Hope this helps ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Growing pains with Seamonkey 2.1
Craig wrote: I know there must be a setting someplace, but I cannot find it (and I even checked the FAQ this time). The answer that Herrmann gave (thanks!) is now part of the FAQ, too. HTH Jens -- Jens Hatlak http://jens.hatlak.de/ SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker http://smtt.blogspot.com/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Growing pains with Seamonkey 2.1
Herrmann Hofer wrote: Craig wrote: 2. In going to other pages, I have gotten a warning bar about re-directing. I clicked allow there and it didn't happen again. I know there must be a setting someplace, but I cannot find it (and I even checked the FAQ this time). Preferences - Appearance - Content - Warn me when web sites try to redirect... Hope this helps It works! It works! Somehow I saw it when I first set up SeaMonkey 2.1 and thought it might be helpful. Then, when I went back to correct it, I didn't see it when I looked at the Content tab. I looked more carefully at the Privacy Security and Advanced settings, thinking it should be there, but of course it wasn't. Craig ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Growing pains with Seamonkey 2.1
Jens Hatlak wrote: Craig wrote: I know there must be a setting someplace, but I cannot find it (and I even checked the FAQ this time). The answer that Herrmann gave (thanks!) is now part of the FAQ, too. HTH Jens Thank you, Jens, for keeping up the FAQ. Craig ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Growing pains with Seamonkey 2.1
Now that I have gotten my bookmarks situation straightened out, I've run into a couple more problems: 1. In going to to some pages, I get a warning bar at the top of the window that says, SeaMonkey prevented this page from automatically reloading. I click the Allow button, but after going away, the warning bar comes back saying the same thing. 2. In going to other pages, I have gotten a warning bar about re-directing. I clicked allow there and it didn't happen again. I know there must be a setting someplace, but I cannot find it (and I even checked the FAQ this time). Any suggestions? Thanks, Craig ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: SeaMonkey 2.1
CONGRATULATIONS, Seamonkey development crew, and contributing community members. Your extraordinary work is certainly appreciated. I am proud to be a Seamonkey User. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
On 6/20/2011 5:52 PM PT, Paul Bergsagel typed: Check and see if NoSquint is available for 2.1 I'm using NoSquint with 2.1 and it works perfectly. Are you using http://downloads.mozdev.org/xsidebar/mods/nosquint-1.93.2.1-mod.xpi from http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmisc.html, or a different one? -- Captain Marvel: Shazam. Billy Batson: Now put her down. Black Adam: See? Like an ant. --Superman/Shazam!: The Return of Black Adam /\___/\ Ant @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site) / /\ /\ \Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net | |o o| | \ _ /If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link. ( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed. Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
James E. Morrow wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on, see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla - which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final release. :) I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-) Robert Kaiser As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception, allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward. Thank you Robert. Same here... another long time reader of this ng and SM user, who greatly appreciates Robert's contribution to the continuation of SM, and helping all of us along the way. Hope you don't stay too far away, Robert. :) bj ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
chicagofan wrote: James E. Morrow wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on, see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla - which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final release. :) I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-) Robert Kaiser As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception, allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward. Thank you Robert. Same here... another long time reader of this ng and SM user, who greatly appreciates Robert's contribution to the continuation of SM, and helping all of us along the way. Hope you don't stay too far away, Robert. :) Thirded. This is like being an NHL goalie -- most of the fans don't notice or say anything unless you foul up. But try sending the team out with a sixth attacker instead and see how far they get. -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On 06/20/2011 01:06 PM, James E. Morrow wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: ... I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-) Robert Kaiser As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception, allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward. Thank you Robert. +many 1's :-) Thanks Kairo. Be well, happy, and healthy (physically mentally). Gary ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
Ant wrote: On 6/20/2011 5:52 PM PT, Paul Bergsagel typed: Check and see if NoSquint is available for 2.1 I'm using NoSquint with 2.1 and it works perfectly. Are you using http://downloads.mozdev.org/xsidebar/mods/nosquint-1.93.2.1-mod.xpi from http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmisc.html, or a different one? I am using NoSquint 1.93.2.1. this is the one from Mozdev. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
On 6/21/2011 6:12 PM PT, Paul Bergsagel typed: Check and see if NoSquint is available for 2.1 I'm using NoSquint with 2.1 and it works perfectly. Are you using http://downloads.mozdev.org/xsidebar/mods/nosquint-1.93.2.1-mod.xpi from http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmisc.html, or a different one? I am using NoSquint 1.93.2.1. this is the one from Mozdev. Thanks. :) -- You feel the faint grit of ants beneath your shoes, but keep on walking because in this world you have to decide what you're willing to kill. --Tony Hoagland from Candlelight /\___/\ Ant @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site) / /\ /\ \Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net | |o o| | \ _ /If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link. ( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed. Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
Ed Mullen a écrit : PhillipJones wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Hi. I just upgraded to Seamonkey 2.1, and I have to say, the experience has been largely painless, and while Seamonkey 2.0.12 used to peg one core of my CPU at 100% for hours at a time, and 2.1 doesn't. Kudos. However, there are two things I'm finding irritating with the new version. First, the Ctrl+Plus to increase size function used to be able to go much bigger. Now it stops me at a certain level. I run my monitor at an extremely high resolution and often need to increase my size waaay beyond the level at which it stops me. Is there any way to get it to let me increase the size further? Perhaps an about:config setting? Second, I don't like the new scrolling tab bar. I prefer the old behavior where the tabs just become unreadably small. I tend not to pay attention to what the tabs read. Rather, I memorize the *order* of my tabs. In this case, being able to see, at a glance, *how many* tabs are in the current window is more useful to me than being able to read each tab's title. Is there any way to revert to the old behavior? Thanks for the help. Peace... Sridhar Check and see if NoSquint is available for 2.1 It is not. And, Robert Kaiser said that he coded into SM a limitation on zoom settings simply because if they allowed the pref toolkit.zoomManager.zoomValues to be altered by users then the View - Text Zoom display would not be accurate. Peronally, that is unacceptable, as I've stated in another message thread. My eyesight is MY eyesight. I need to be able to specify what I need and I don't care a whit for making localization interfaces agree. I need to be able to say: - site A = x+ zoom - site B = -x zoom - site C = ... Those are the sites I use, and I need to have the ability to fine tune the zoom settings for those sites. I couldn't care in the least what the VIEW - TEXT ZOOM menu says. I've been using this software in one incarnation or another since at leat 1994. And I've NEVER looked at or used that menu option. If I change things via about:config, or even a UI access, (and SM's ability to let me customize things is why I use it) I understand that I can't expect the UI to track every tweak I make. I DON'T CARE. But, to deny me that control over the interface is a deal breaker. Even if I set that pref in a user.js file or the prefs.js file, on program load those settings are ignored. This is horrible change to the program. And it is simply rude in ignoring users' control over their visual experience with SeaMonkey. MHO I have nearly the same expectations, as displays are improving their resolutions, and viewing conditions may change in real life, why can't we change easily the zoom level and concurrently the text zoom level, in order to make a comfortable view. to my opinion SM 2.0.* plus nosquint made it as we could use ctrl (shift for text only) mouse wheel up/down -- cyberzen ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos a écrit : Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 05:11, cyberzen told the world: MCBastos a écrit : Now and then I click on the wrong status bar icon and open it when what I wanted was another module... what about quitting coffee ? Joke all you want, but those are closely-spaced 16px icons. It's not that hard to click on the wrong one. sorry have you tried CuteButtons Chrystal SVG these little icons make a little tilt when high lighted... -- cyberzen ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Robert Kaiser wrote: Michael Hannon schrieb: Robert Kaiser wrote: In any case, happy to not be in charge any more, makes laughing about this much easier than in earlier times. Who's in charge now? The collective of the SeaMonkey Council (of which I'm remaining a part, but just as one of multiple people, not as the project coordinator). I'm sorry to hear you've stopped running the project. Thanks for your work on the browser over the past few years (not to mention LCARStrek!). As a note, LCARStrek will continue to be developed (but now for both SeaMonkey and Firefox). ;-) As for me, my personal priorities have changed as stated in http://home.kairo.at/blog/2010-10/personal_priorities and I moved on, see also http://home.kairo.at/blog/2011-05/full_time_at_csi_mozilla - which now makes me say things like A beta user sample of [roughly 4-5x the release users of SeaMonkey] is too small to give us really good data on stability, but so far it looks stable enough to ship this as a final release. :) I'm not too far away, but not here as much as previously. And I feel good getting less vitriol about my work and working with people who can do Mozilla stuff full-time. ;-) Robert Kaiser As one who has read and mostly lurked in this group since its inception, allow me to say that your efforts on behalf of the SeaMonkey Project are greatly appreciated. We all have to step back now and again. But your work as project leader leaves SeaMonkey well established to go forward. Thank you Robert. -- James E. Morrow Email to: jamesemor...@email.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
PhillipJones wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Hi. I just upgraded to Seamonkey 2.1, and I have to say, the experience has been largely painless, and while Seamonkey 2.0.12 used to peg one core of my CPU at 100% for hours at a time, and 2.1 doesn't. Kudos. However, there are two things I'm finding irritating with the new version. First, the Ctrl+Plus to increase size function used to be able to go much bigger. Now it stops me at a certain level. I run my monitor at an extremely high resolution and often need to increase my size waaay beyond the level at which it stops me. Is there any way to get it to let me increase the size further? Perhaps an about:config setting? Second, I don't like the new scrolling tab bar. I prefer the old behavior where the tabs just become unreadably small. I tend not to pay attention to what the tabs read. Rather, I memorize the *order* of my tabs. In this case, being able to see, at a glance, *how many* tabs are in the current window is more useful to me than being able to read each tab's title. Is there any way to revert to the old behavior? Thanks for the help. Peace... Sridhar Check and see if NoSquint is available for 2.1 I'm using NoSquint with 2.1 and it works perfectly. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 6/19/2011 12:00 AM, Rufus wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote: I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And pay for any dev kits I need to do the work. That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money... ...and I'd expect you to do the same. Of course, IFF you hired me with a contract you could draw up and state that all my work on that is copyright you, etc. such that you could make the millions and I only get whatever the contract says :-) ...then the lawyers would get all the money. Anyway, this is off topic now. Yup. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Keith Whaley wrote: Rufus wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote: I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And pay for any dev kits I need to do the work. I will attempt this task. Beyond that I don't think I (or anyone here) would have time or the ability to do it. Time, maybe. Ability? I'm certain they do. At least I'm certain the development team does. I may also require you to hire additional people to make this possible (since I know very little about the mail side of things) That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money... ...and I'd expect you to do the same. Aha. What money? SM is free of cost at the moment. If they're expecting to develop another SM from scratch for iOS style products, you're also going to have to locate a pretty rich donor, to pay salaries and such things. And in the end, you're going to expect Honda style reliability and usefulness...which MUST come from the team who does the job anew. Anew because what you want doesn't yet exist. keith ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Keith Whaley wrote: Nice analogy, MC... keith whaley MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world: No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big, subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I also realize this means a *new* product. What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get. The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler. What you are asking for would be an entirely new product, built from the ground up, reusing very little existing Mozilla/Seamonkey code, made to mimic superficially the Seamonkey features. I say superficially because, even if it looked like Seamonkey, it would be unable to run extensions -- because those extensions depend on Gecko to run. What you are doing, essentially, is going to Honda and suggesting they should build a Civic -- but using a Ford engine, Ford transmission and Ford unibody, with only surface bodywork and upholstering by Honda. And of course, it should *still* allow the installation of engine tuning kits which were designed for a Honda engine, because those engines are one of the nice things about Hondas... Would you be surprised if Honda considered your request could hardly be called a Honda and therefore they weren't interested in wasting engineering talent developing it, while there were real Hondas to be developed? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Keith Whaley wrote: Keith Whaley wrote: Rufus wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote: I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And pay for any dev kits I need to do the work. I will attempt this task. Beyond that I don't think I (or anyone here) would have time or the ability to do it. Time, maybe. Ability? I'm certain they do. At least I'm certain the development team does. I may also require you to hire additional people to make this possible (since I know very little about the mail side of things) That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money... ...and I'd expect you to do the same. Aha. What money? SM is free of cost at the moment. If they're expecting to develop another SM from scratch for iOS style products, you're also going to have to locate a pretty rich donor, to pay salaries and such things. They may give it away for free, but I still suspect there is some sort of revenue stream somewhere for someone/thing/enterprise. I'm not really sure how that works; someone here explained it to me once, but I've since lost the bubble on what was said - something similar to RIAA royalties based on site hits for specific browsers...but I won't swear to that. In any event, the process has to be self sustaining in some regard. And in the end, you're going to expect Honda style reliability and usefulness...which MUST come from the team who does the job anew. Anew because what you want doesn't yet exist. keith Yes, but I could say the same about any product. Everything starts from nothing, with nothing to start with but an idea. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
Hi. I just upgraded to Seamonkey 2.1, and I have to say, the experience has been largely painless, and while Seamonkey 2.0.12 used to peg one core of my CPU at 100% for hours at a time, and 2.1 doesn't. Kudos. However, there are two things I'm finding irritating with the new version. First, the Ctrl+Plus to increase size function used to be able to go much bigger. Now it stops me at a certain level. I run my monitor at an extremely high resolution and often need to increase my size waaay beyond the level at which it stops me. Is there any way to get it to let me increase the size further? Perhaps an about:config setting? Second, I don't like the new scrolling tab bar. I prefer the old behavior where the tabs just become unreadably small. I tend not to pay attention to what the tabs read. Rather, I memorize the *order* of my tabs. In this case, being able to see, at a glance, *how many* tabs are in the current window is more useful to me than being able to read each tab's title. Is there any way to revert to the old behavior? Thanks for the help. Peace... Sridhar ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Hi. I just upgraded to Seamonkey 2.1, and I have to say, the experience has been largely painless, and while Seamonkey 2.0.12 used to peg one core of my CPU at 100% for hours at a time, and 2.1 doesn't. Kudos. However, there are two things I'm finding irritating with the new version. First, the Ctrl+Plus to increase size function used to be able to go much bigger. Now it stops me at a certain level. I run my monitor at an extremely high resolution and often need to increase my size waaay beyond the level at which it stops me. Is there any way to get it to let me increase the size further? Perhaps an about:config setting? Second, I don't like the new scrolling tab bar. I prefer the old behavior where the tabs just become unreadably small. I tend not to pay attention to what the tabs read. Rather, I memorize the *order* of my tabs. In this case, being able to see, at a glance, *how many* tabs are in the current window is more useful to me than being able to read each tab's title. Is there any way to revert to the old behavior? Thanks for the help. Peace... Sridhar Check and see if NoSquint is available for 2.1 -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
On 6/19/11 7:40 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Hi. I just upgraded to Seamonkey 2.1, and I have to say, the experience has been largely painless, and while Seamonkey 2.0.12 used to peg one core of my CPU at 100% for hours at a time, and 2.1 doesn't. Kudos. However, there are two things I'm finding irritating with the new version. First, the Ctrl+Plus to increase size function used to be able to go much bigger. Now it stops me at a certain level. I run my monitor at an extremely high resolution and often need to increase my size waaay beyond the level at which it stops me. Is there any way to get it to let me increase the size further? Perhaps an about:config setting? Second, I don't like the new scrolling tab bar. I prefer the old behavior where the tabs just become unreadably small. I tend not to pay attention to what the tabs read. Rather, I memorize the *order* of my tabs. In this case, being able to see, at a glance, *how many* tabs are in the current window is more useful to me than being able to read each tab's title. Is there any way to revert to the old behavior? Thanks for the help. Peace... Sridhar Your first problem is caused by the fact that you can now only zoom larger or zoom smaller by at most three steps: 120%, 150%, and 200% and also 95%, 75%, and 50%. However, if you go to the menu bar and select [View Text Zoom Other], you can get custom zooms between 30% and 300%. You could likely code a custom button in PrefBar to allow input of custom zooms without having always to navigate from the menu bar. For your second problem, you can see the entire list of tabs by selecting the tiny down-pointing triangle at the right end of the tab bar just to the left of the X that closes the current tab. (In the viewed list, the current tab will be bold.) While this takes a small extra effort, you can then count the entries. -- David E. Ross http://www.rossde.com/ On occasion, I might filter and ignore all newsgroup messages posted through GoogleGroups via Google's G2/1.0 user agent because of spam from that source. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
PhillipJones wrote: Sridhar Ayengar wrote: Hi. I just upgraded to Seamonkey 2.1, and I have to say, the experience has been largely painless, and while Seamonkey 2.0.12 used to peg one core of my CPU at 100% for hours at a time, and 2.1 doesn't. Kudos. However, there are two things I'm finding irritating with the new version. First, the Ctrl+Plus to increase size function used to be able to go much bigger. Now it stops me at a certain level. I run my monitor at an extremely high resolution and often need to increase my size waaay beyond the level at which it stops me. Is there any way to get it to let me increase the size further? Perhaps an about:config setting? Second, I don't like the new scrolling tab bar. I prefer the old behavior where the tabs just become unreadably small. I tend not to pay attention to what the tabs read. Rather, I memorize the *order* of my tabs. In this case, being able to see, at a glance, *how many* tabs are in the current window is more useful to me than being able to read each tab's title. Is there any way to revert to the old behavior? Thanks for the help. Peace... Sridhar Check and see if NoSquint is available for 2.1 It is not. And, Robert Kaiser said that he coded into SM a limitation on zoom settings simply because if they allowed the pref toolkit.zoomManager.zoomValues to be altered by users then the View - Text Zoom display would not be accurate. Peronally, that is unacceptable, as I've stated in another message thread. My eyesight is MY eyesight. I need to be able to specify what I need and I don't care a whit for making localization interfaces agree. I need to be able to say: - site A = x+ zoom - site B = -x zoom - site C = ... Those are the sites I use, and I need to have the ability to fine tune the zoom settings for those sites. I couldn't care in the least what the VIEW - TEXT ZOOM menu says. I've been using this software in one incarnation or another since at leat 1994. And I've NEVER looked at or used that menu option. If I change things via about:config, or even a UI access, (and SM's ability to let me customize things is why I use it) I understand that I can't expect the UI to track every tweak I make. I DON'T CARE. But, to deny me that control over the interface is a deal breaker. Even if I set that pref in a user.js file or the prefs.js file, on program load those settings are ignored. This is horrible change to the program. And it is simply rude in ignoring users' control over their visual experience with SeaMonkey. MHO -- Ed Mullen http://edmullen.net/ Why doesn't the glue stick to the inside of the bottle? ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Two Problems I'm Having With Seamonkey 2.1
Sridhar Ayengar schrieb: Second, I don't like the new scrolling tab bar. I prefer the old behavior where the tabs just become unreadably small. I tend not to pay attention to what the tabs read. Rather, I memorize the *order* of my tabs. In this case, being able to see, at a glance, *how many* tabs are in the current window is more useful to me than being able to read each tab's title. Is there any way to revert to the old behavior? I don't have the time now to try it out, but maybe: browser.tabs.tabMinWidth - 100 (default) helps with this? Settng a smaller minimum should show more tabs...? BR/Philipp ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 22:55, PhillipJones told the world: You do know Apple is now selling Unlocked iPhones Just announced last week. Unlocked means not tied to a phone carrier. But it is still tied to the Apple store, and subject to Apple's rules. It's not factory-jailbroken. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Blueberry. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 22:34, d...@kd4e.com told the world: How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix? I don't have any personal experience with Midori, but I understand from the website that it depends on a separate standard installation of Webkit, instead of bundling their own tweaked version. So it is, in general terms, a browser shell. I didn't find any information regarding versions for iOS, but if they do make one, that version is clearly just a browser shell, since they are unable to make any sort of changes to the engine. On other platforms, though, there's still the theoretical possibility of the Midori team growing unhappy with some aspects of Webkit and deciding to fork their own version. So, on these platforms Midori has at least the *potential* to become a full browser. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my BBC Micro. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
d...@kd4e.com wrote: If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix? I thought she was a violinist... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it meant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world: Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform. You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine (the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor extension ecosystem... Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome. ...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care about much more than that, from a user standpoint. SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's. The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple won't allow Gecko in the App Store. Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's not impossible, it's not prohibited...the SM folks just don't want to do an iOS implementation of SM functionality. Fine, but a pity. Atomic gets me half of what I want anyway...I'm pretty sure NewsTap will get me the rest. So?..big deal. All depends on what you're after. Personally, I'd go through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing. If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. That's where you're seriously missing the mark. SM has things in common with Firefox - probably even shares code and gets lead around by the nose in that regard...but nobody has an issue with that? Same principle - iOS has it's own set of core code - big deal. Somebody has to play by the rules to develop to that...big deal. The folks that wrote Atomic did it, are selling it, and I don't care what it's based on from a user standpoint - it has a *far* richer feature set than iOS Safari, and operates in a manner more like what I do on my desktop. So that's what I choose to use on *my* iPad. And if anyone wanted to give it away for free, they certainly have that option in the Apple App Store - I've downloaded a whole host of full featured free apps, and I've only just scratched the surface. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
PhillipJones wrote: Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of developers embracing, stepping up, and coding. There are a number of alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than Safari on iOS. None of them is a browser by itself. Apple does NOT allow ANY software in their store that competes with some software they are providing with the device theirselves. All those alternatives are just Safari with a different costume, i.e. some other user interface around it. ...I dunno. I guess we're arguing coding semantics. Atomic is certainly a browser to me, because it browses. And it's functionality and feature set are vastly different from Safari, it certainly competes with Safari, I got it from the Apple App Store for 99 cents...and there are others there. So I don't buy your premise one bit as stated. Yes, it's platform-specific and uses some platform specific code, but so do a whole host of other software. I don't have an issue with that from any standpoint. But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite concept when working on my iPad Well, I'm reasonably sure that communication methods that don't run inside the browser will be mostly dying out in the next years. But then, that's just my opinion. Robert Kaiser The iPad is certainly the first device I've bought in a very long time that is actually changing the way I work. I'm sort of dubious about the approaching Lion OS...I'm not sure I'm going to like some of it's more iOS-like implementations on my desktop, but then again I'm not sure I won't. Everything changes...what matters more is still being able to make choices which suits the individual user. More products, more better. You are aware the only way to get Lion is have a Very good Internet Connection Perhaps FOIS or better. It will not be sold on DVD. It will only cost $29.00. Yes, I am, and I do...my average daily download speed is around 11 Mbps. But I am a bit peeved about the new delivery scheme...but it seems to be a growing trend with just about everything electronic these days - my stereo receiver, my TV, my blue-ray player, all want a broadband connection for firmware update. Unfortunately with My puny DSL it will take at least 24 hours to download. I, and a lot of other have protested on the Apple newsgroups. And on the Feedback Channels are getting red hot to. I can believe that, and I have to agree with the discontent even though it won't really affect me as far as getting the update goes. But I'm still undecided as to if I *really* want it. In my Area, High speed anything is just not available. Cable is slow DSL is Slow and a lot of the people in my area are using Dial up. They just can't afford otherwise. Where I live the cable ISP makes DSL look like dialup. DSL service speed here is very dependent on how close you live to the main Verizon hub - all of our cable infrastructure was swapped to fiber about ten years ago - I specifically waited to get on the net until I had fiber laid in my neighborhood and could get a cable modem. Been happy ever since. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: SeaMonkey 2.1
Bill Davidsen wrote: I'll probably get my post taken down for this, but wouldn't it be easier to provide a compatibility check disable in about:config that actually WORKS instead of having some of us creating hacked xpi files and others staying with old versions because they can't or won't? First of all, I don't see why anyone would kill a post with such content. The situation with SM regarding incompatible extensions can be summarized as follows: First, there are two (10 ;-)) kind of extensions: Those that declare compatibility with at least some version of SM (let's call them used to work), and those that don't (let's call them unsupported). For extensions that used to work (like QuoteCollapse), you can simply install the Add-on Compatibility Reporter from AMO. It is currently compatible with all SM versions from 2.1 (stable) through 2.4a1 (trunk). This has the added benefit over simply setting the compatibility prefs yourself (which you don't have to remember to set anymore!) that you can let the extension authors know that their versions still work with the SM version you are using. Unsupported extensions however are different. They cannot be installed or enabled in SM at all unless you hack their install.rdf (or someone releases a new, supported version of course). Sometimes that's unfortunate since the author just blindly removed SM support from install.rdf, but it certainly is the safest thing to do as a default. To my knowledge, there is no extension that automatically hacks install.rdf for you (which, in the case of a download/install, would have to happen in between the download and the install!). The system, as outlined above, is part of the Mozilla platform (i.e. shared with Firefox). Consequently, any change to it needs to be made to the platform code, which is under Firefox development ruling. I'd assume that any request regarding install.rdf hacking (even pref-guarded) would be turned down, so I wouldn't bother trying. HTH Jens -- Jens Hatlak http://jens.hatlak.de/ SeaMonkey Trunk Tracker http://smtt.blogspot.com/ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus schrieb: ...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care about much more than that, from a user standpoint. So then you have no right to want anything their app store doesn't provide. They don't give you that right, after all. Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's not impossible, it's not prohibited... Again, you have not understood anything. Using our technology is prohibited and therefore impossible on their products, and that makes it impossible to port our software there. So we don't even think about if it would be useful. Even this discussion here is a waste of our precious developer time. That's where you're seriously missing the mark. No, you are missing the mark. But as you don't want to understand, I'll end this discussion and turn to doing things that makes sense. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Midori on Apple Devices? [Was: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever]
Paul B. Gallagher wrote: d...@kd4e.com wrote: If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix? I thought she was a violinist... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it meant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori BRAVO! :-) Nice to have a little fun here amidst the often-serious business of coding and strategic development decisions. -- Thanks! 73, KD4E David Colburn http://kd4e.com Have an http://ultrafidian.com day I don't google I SEARCH! STARTPAGE.com Shop Freedom-Friendly http://kd4e.com/of.html ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Midori on Apple Devices? [Was: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever]
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 22:34, d...@kd4e.com told the world: How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix? I don't have any personal experience with Midori, but I understand from the website that it depends on a separate standard installation of Webkit, instead of bundling their own tweaked version. So it is, in general terms, a browser shell. I didn't find any information regarding versions for iOS, but if they do make one, that version is clearly just a browser shell, since they are unable to make any sort of changes to the engine. On other platforms, though, there's still the theoretical possibility of the Midori team growing unhappy with some aspects of Webkit and deciding to fork their own version. So, on these platforms Midori has at least the *potential* to become a full browser. Thanks for the clarification! -- Thanks! 73, KD4E David Colburn http://kd4e.com Have an http://ultrafidian.com day I don't google I SEARCH! STARTPAGE.com Shop Freedom-Friendly http://kd4e.com/of.html ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:55:15 -0400, PhillipJones wrote: If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. You do know Apple is now selling Unlocked iPhones Just announced last week. You know unlocked != jailbroken right? Phil -- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 03:18:06 -0400, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: d...@kd4e.com wrote: If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix? I thought she was a violinist... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it meant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori Midori (Pretty Bird) is also a popular female name in Japan. Most of the cites on that wiki page are people with Midori as their first name. -- -==- Philip Chee phi...@aleytys.pc.my, philip.c...@gmail.com http://flashblock.mozdev.org/ http://xsidebar.mozdev.org Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief, oh Night, and so be good for us to pass. ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: ...so, Microsoft redux...big deal - Apple's turn. They make a product which suits my desires. So I'll buy it and use it...I don't really care about much more than that, from a user standpoint. So then you have no right to want anything their app store doesn't provide. They don't give you that right, after all. No, I have the right to make requests of suppliers to build/supply anything I want - just like with any product, and the supplier has the right to decline or accept my request just like with any product. I refuse to believe it's impossible or prohibited because other people are doing it. Again - unwillingness to do the work to bring a product to market. It's not impossible, it's not prohibited... Again, you have not understood anything. Using our technology is prohibited and therefore impossible on their products, and that makes it impossible to port our software there. So we don't even think about if it would be useful. Even this discussion here is a waste of our precious developer time. No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big, subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I also realize this means a *new* product. What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get. That's where you're seriously missing the mark. No, you are missing the mark. But as you don't want to understand, I'll end this discussion and turn to doing things that makes sense. Robert Kaiser No, I understand...I just refuse to accept that it's not possible. I *will* accept that you don't want to do it. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 03:18:06 -0400, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: d...@kd4e.com wrote: If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix? I thought she was a violinist... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it meant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori Midori (Pretty Bird) is also a popular female name in Japan. Most of the cites on that wiki page are people with Midori as their first name. ...it's also a liquor. http://www.midori-world.com/index2.html -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Philip Chee wrote: On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 03:18:06 -0400, Paul B. Gallagher wrote: d...@kd4e.com wrote: If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix? I thought she was a violinist... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_Gotō But when I looked it up, I was amazed at how many different things it meant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori Midori (Pretty Bird) is also a popular female name in Japan. Most of the cites on that wiki page are people with Midori as their first name. Sure, I was aware of that (I did read the linked pages). But AFAIK it's rare among Japanese to go by the first name alone -- the skater Midori Itō, for example, uses her last name as well. I have seen people in the performing arts do this, such as the Korean singer/actor 알렉스 (Alex, birth name 추헌곤 = Chu Hungon). So in that sense, Midori's not such an exception. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Chu -- War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left. -- Paul B. Gallagher ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world: No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big, subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I also realize this means a *new* product. What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get. The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler. What you are asking for would be an entirely new product, built from the ground up, reusing very little existing Mozilla/Seamonkey code, made to mimic superficially the Seamonkey features. I say superficially because, even if it looked like Seamonkey, it would be unable to run extensions -- because those extensions depend on Gecko to run. What you are doing, essentially, is going to Honda and suggesting they should build a Civic -- but using a Ford engine, Ford transmission and Ford unibody, with only surface bodywork and upholstering by Honda. And of course, it should *still* allow the installation of engine tuning kits which were designed for a Honda engine, because those engines are one of the nice things about Hondas... Would you be surprised if Honda considered your request could hardly be called a Honda and therefore they weren't interested in wasting engineering talent developing it, while there were real Hondas to be developed? -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Cranberry. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 18/06/2011 14:59, Rufus told the world: No, I don't think you're understanding *me* - I'm not interested in the Mozilla technology, I'm interested in the Mozilla *feature set*. Big, subtle difference in that I'm thinking as a user and not a coder, and I also realize this means a *new* product. What I want is the Mozilla feature set brought to iOS...which is why I now have the Atomic browser on my iPad. It's as close as I can get. The thing is, the feature set on Firefox and Seamonkey is completely dependent on the Gecko engine. The user interface is ran by the browser engine, not by the operating system. That's what allows writing such powerful browser extensions, for starters. Gecko was designed from the start to offer this functionality. Webkit does not offer it, and that's why Safari and Chrome extensions are comparatively simpler. I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. Biggest limitation with iOS that I can discern is file transfer...but I can live with hardware/OS limitations, interface issues can in general always be evolved. The Atomic browser is about as close to SM as one can get for iOS. Tabbed browsing as opposed to opening new full screen, rotable pages like Safari (which leaves me thinking I won't like Full Screen Apps in Lion...), better user bookmark sorting ability, limited user theme-like (color - with a few strokes I could make it look even more like SM Modern in that respect) selection ability, a user definable Personal Toolbar...none of these are Safari features and Atomic has far more pref settings available to the user. So it's been done...to an extent. What's missing from Atomic for me as a SM user is an integrated e-mail/usenet client. But I've *just* grabbed NewsTap and it's extremely full-featured and looks to be just the ticket...so I may actually have what I want now, other than that the two (Atomic and NewsTap) aren't integrated. but as I've mentioned before iOS is beginning to change my mind about the utility of a suite - that may also hold with Lion...I'll have to wait and see what Lion actually does. Lion's full screen app implementation may drive me to using the Safari/Thunderbird combination. What you are asking for would be an entirely new product, built from the ground up, reusing very little existing Mozilla/Seamonkey code, made to mimic superficially the Seamonkey features. I say superficially because, even if it looked like Seamonkey, it would be unable to run extensions -- because those extensions depend on Gecko to run. Yes - I'm aware of that and have said so. In fact, I would expect an iOS implementation would/could use *none* of the existing SM *code*, but that doesn't mean it couldn't behave and or look like SM and still *be* SM...I'd call it PadMonkey, myself...just for marketing purposes, and to distinguish it. What you are doing, essentially, is going to Honda and suggesting they should build a Civic -- but using a Ford engine, Ford transmission and Ford unibody, with only surface bodywork and upholstering by Honda. And of course, it should *still* allow the installation of engine tuning kits which were designed for a Honda engine, because those engines are one of the nice things about Hondas... Yeah...that's done all the time. In point of fact, Honda are presently developing jet engines and are now looking for someone to build other than Hondajets to put them in as a competitive alternative to the Williams engine. Epiphone builds Les Paul and other Gibson designed guitars, GM rebrands common designs and parts, US plants build Toyotas, a lot of the parts on my Harley are made overseas now and it's still an American motorcycle. That's how open markets work... If the SM Team wrote it, it would *be* SM if that's what the team wanted it to be. Just SM for and to the constraints of another platform. Would you be surprised if Honda considered your request could hardly be called a Honda and therefore they weren't interested in wasting engineering talent developing it, while there were real Hondas to be developed? Boeing, Airbus, and a whole host of other jets are delivered with GE, Rolls Royce, SNECMA, etc. engines, and all the companies make money...none of them really care what the final product is called. They all get their cut - and that's really what it's all about. I'm still trying to figure out how the SM team generates revenue...they must somehow/where, or they wouldn't be doing what they do. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote: I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And pay for any dev kits I need to do the work. I will attempt this task. Beyond that I don't think I (or anyone here) would have time or the ability to do it. I may also require you to hire additional people to make this possible (since I know very little about the mail side of things) -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote: I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And pay for any dev kits I need to do the work. I will attempt this task. Beyond that I don't think I (or anyone here) would have time or the ability to do it. Time, maybe. Ability? I'm certain they do. At least I'm certain the development team does. I may also require you to hire additional people to make this possible (since I know very little about the mail side of things) That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money... ...and I'd expect you to do the same. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
On 6/19/2011 12:00 AM, Rufus wrote: Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: On 6/18/2011 8:40 PM, Rufus wrote: I find that hard to believe as stated. The feature set as implemented within the *current* releases as coded is dependent on the Gecko engine, but for a *new* product what we are talking about is a set of design requirements and interface specifications - not the actual implementation in code to accomplish the task. I like the SM implementation...(completely) new code, same look. I'll make you a deal, if you want to HIRE me, with a contract, weekly pay, etc. And give me a device or two that I can test my code on. And pay for any dev kits I need to do the work. That's only fair, and I've thought about attempting it myself...but if I do and am successful, I'll of course be keeping all the money... ...and I'd expect you to do the same. Of course, IFF you hired me with a contract you could draw up and state that all my work on that is copyright you, etc. such that you could make the millions and I only get whatever the contract says :-) Anyway, this is off topic now. -- ~Justin Wood (Callek) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 22:44, Rufus told the world: That's simply not true. I have the Atomic browser installed on my iPad and like it...and there are others. Atomic is not a full browser either. It does not include its own rendering engine, but uses the iOS Safari one. Essentially, it's Safari with a different skin. Let me repeat: Apple does not allow another rendering engine on iOS. You won't get a Gecko browser, like Firefox or Seamonkey, there. You won't even get a different spin of Webkit, such as Google Chrome. Developing any sort of application which overlaps in functionality Apple's official ones is chancy at best. You have no idea if they will allow the app to be distributed, or if your investment is going to go down the drain. ...as in any business venture. Failure to make a profit because you can't convince people to pay for your product is a normal risk. Failure to make a profit because you are not allowed to sell your product for unclear reasons is not a normal risk. Yes. But there are alternatives to distribution other than the App Store...it would take some thinking, but I can see a way. Only for jailbroken devices, which are a minority. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Apple IIe. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 16/06/2011 22:44, Rufus told the world: That's simply not true. I have the Atomic browser installed on my iPad and like it...and there are others. Atomic is not a full browser either. It does not include its own rendering engine, but uses the iOS Safari one. Essentially, it's Safari with a different skin. I think you need to look again. Not only does Atomic work and get the job done, it also does tabs. Safari does not do tabs on the iPad. Let me repeat: Apple does not allow another rendering engine on iOS. You won't get a Gecko browser, like Firefox or Seamonkey, there. You won't even get a different spin of Webkit, such as Google Chrome. Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform. Developing any sort of application which overlaps in functionality Apple's official ones is chancy at best. You have no idea if they will allow the app to be distributed, or if your investment is going to go down the drain. ...as in any business venture. Failure to make a profit because you can't convince people to pay for your product is a normal risk. Failure to make a profit because you are not allowed to sell your product for unclear reasons is not a normal risk. SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's. Yes. But there are alternatives to distribution other than the App Store...it would take some thinking, but I can see a way. Only for jailbroken devices, which are a minority. So?..big deal. All depends on what you're after. Personally, I'd go through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus schrieb: It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of developers embracing, stepping up, and coding. There are a number of alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than Safari on iOS. None of them is a browser by itself. Apple does NOT allow ANY software in their store that competes with some software they are providing with the device theirselves. All those alternatives are just Safari with a different costume, i.e. some other user interface around it. But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite concept when working on my iPad Well, I'm reasonably sure that communication methods that don't run inside the browser will be mostly dying out in the next years. But then, that's just my opinion. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of developers embracing, stepping up, and coding. There are a number of alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than Safari on iOS. None of them is a browser by itself. Apple does NOT allow ANY software in their store that competes with some software they are providing with the device theirselves. All those alternatives are just Safari with a different costume, i.e. some other user interface around it. ...I dunno. I guess we're arguing coding semantics. Atomic is certainly a browser to me, because it browses. And it's functionality and feature set are vastly different from Safari, it certainly competes with Safari, I got it from the Apple App Store for 99 cents...and there are others there. So I don't buy your premise one bit as stated. Yes, it's platform-specific and uses some platform specific code, but so do a whole host of other software. I don't have an issue with that from any standpoint. But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite concept when working on my iPad Well, I'm reasonably sure that communication methods that don't run inside the browser will be mostly dying out in the next years. But then, that's just my opinion. Robert Kaiser The iPad is certainly the first device I've bought in a very long time that is actually changing the way I work. I'm sort of dubious about the approaching Lion OS...I'm not sure I'm going to like some of it's more iOS-like implementations on my desktop, but then again I'm not sure I won't. Everything changes...what matters more is still being able to make choices which suits the individual user. More products, more better. -- - Rufus ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world: Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform. You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine (the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor extension ecosystem... Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome. SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's. The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple won't allow Gecko in the App Store. So?..big deal. All depends on what you're after. Personally, I'd go through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing. If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. -- MCBastos This message has been protected with the 2ROT13 algorithm. Unauthorized use will be prosecuted under the DMCA. -=-=- ... Sent from my Bic. *Added by TagZilla 0.066.2 running on Seamonkey 2.1 * Get it at http://xsidebar.mozdev.org/modifiedmailnews.html#tagzilla ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world: Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform. You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine (the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor extension ecosystem... Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome. SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's. The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple won't allow Gecko in the App Store. So?..big deal. All depends on what you're after. Personally, I'd go through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing. If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. Ah, but Google has introduced hardware based on Chrome ... ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: SeaMonkey 2.1
Bill Davidsen wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: PhillipJones wrote: I tried QuoteCollase several Times, and iI always ended up with a wide bar at the bottom where the status bar would be be bout 2 long and width of the screen. After removing it I would have to remove chrome file (which I have forgotten which file with SM off and the restart. I'm using QuoteCollapse 0.8 without much of a problem (needs compatibility checks deactivated at least for SM 2.1, though). The issue you describe (broken MailNews status bar) sounds similar to what I found with Mailbox Alert, though. I've contacted the author; let's see where that leads. I'll probably get my post taken down for this, but wouldn't it be easier to provide a compatibility check disable in about:config that actually WORKS instead of having some of us creating hacked xpi files and others staying with old versions because they can't or won't? When the SM version is than the specified max in the install.rtf wouldn't it be nice to have a pop-up asking something like Your version of Seamonkey is newer than the add-on is know to support try install anyway? [TRY] [CANCEL] Just my ten cents worth... That's a brilliant idea!! You can remove my post as well. :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: SeaMonkey 2.1
Jens Hatlak wrote: PhillipJones wrote: I tried QuoteCollase several Times, and iI always ended up with a wide bar at the bottom where the status bar would be be bout 2 long and width of the screen. After removing it I would have to remove chrome file (which I have forgotten which file with SM off and the restart. I'm using QuoteCollapse 0.8 without much of a problem (needs compatibility checks deactivated at least for SM 2.1, though). The issue you describe (broken MailNews status bar) sounds similar to what I found with Mailbox Alert, though. I've contacted the author; let's see where that leads. I'll probably get my post taken down for this, but wouldn't it be easier to provide a compatibility check disable in about:config that actually WORKS instead of having some of us creating hacked xpi files and others staying with old versions because they can't or won't? When the SM version is than the specified max in the install.rtf wouldn't it be nice to have a pop-up asking something like Your version of Seamonkey is newer than the add-on is know to support try install anyway? [TRY] [CANCEL] Just my ten cents worth... -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos wrote: Interviewed by CNN on 17/06/2011 10:37, Rufus told the world: Seriously - I don't care what goes on under the hood. If I can browse with it on an iPad, it is a full browser to/for me. If Apple wants you to use their rendering engine, then that's just less code you have to write. The fact that it works differently on a different OS is of no consequence to me - that's the nature of any platform. You are entirely missing the point of the Mozilla ecosystem and the rebirth of browser development. Ten years ago, there were so-called alternative browsers for Windows that used the preloaded Trident engine (the one in IE). The thing is, they were as slow as IE, had the same rendering bugs as IE, the same security vulnerabilities as IE. If Microsoft had been able back then to forbid Opera and Netscape/Mozilla from installing alternative browser engines, we would be still stagnated with prettier versions of IE 6 (they had in fact disbanded the Trident development team). Meaning: slow Javascript, buggy implementation, poor extension ecosystem... Apple is already growing too comfortable with their effective monopoly of browser engines in iOS: Safari development has been lagging behind other browsers, despite sharing a lot of code with Chrome. SM is given away for free...build it for iOS, charge 99 cents, and I think folks would pay that. But if you're not even up to taking a chance in the first place, then that your issue - not Apple's. The point is: you *can't.* Seamonkey is Gecko-based. EVERYTHING in it is based on Gecko -- the extensions environment, the whole thing. Apple won't allow Gecko in the App Store. So?..big deal. All depends on what you're after. Personally, I'd go through the App Store on an iOS browser like other are doing. If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. You do know Apple is now selling Unlocked iPhones Just announced last week. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Justin Wood (Callek) wrote: Bill Davidsen wrote: Please don't improve the user interface, the reason I like it is that I don't have to learn all new keystrokes and methods every 4-6 months. The improve, is in all aspects, we don't intend to break your experiences/learned habits there where possible. But don't fear I don't see anyone working on *anything* substantial there at the moment anyway. That's very good news, because it is great for doing simple pages which work for the simple people who still run IR6 or (shudder) Mosaic. It's easy to use, text, images and tables are fine for documentation and email. But there have been lots of web additions/features/etc. added to the Web Platform since Composer was first made, so it does need some updating to stay relevant. There have been lots of neat complex tools written to generate all that stuff, too. They are the tools of professional web designers, communications specialists, etc. I have two such in my family, and you would need a huge team to do the tools they use. You also need to have a ton of browser sniffing, because the composer we have generates code which works for Gecko, Chrome, and a few others, while IE6 thru IE8 display it all wrong. Let it remain irrelevant, SM lacks resources to do all the things desired in the heavily used bits, and composer is useful as is, what it does it does well, IMHO. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We are not out of the woods yet, but we know the direction and have taken the first step. The steps are many, but finite in number, and if we persevere we will reach our destination. -me, 2010 ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: SeaMonkey 2.1
Glen wrote: Bill Davidsen wrote: Jens Hatlak wrote: PhillipJones wrote: I tried QuoteCollase several Times, and iI always ended up with a wide bar at the bottom where the status bar would be be bout 2 long and width of the screen. After removing it I would have to remove chrome file (which I have forgotten which file with SM off and the restart. I'm using QuoteCollapse 0.8 without much of a problem (needs compatibility checks deactivated at least for SM 2.1, though). The issue you describe (broken MailNews status bar) sounds similar to what I found with Mailbox Alert, though. I've contacted the author; let's see where that leads. I'll probably get my post taken down for this, but wouldn't it be easier to provide a compatibility check disable in about:config that actually WORKS instead of having some of us creating hacked xpi files and others staying with old versions because they can't or won't? When the SM version is than the specified max in the install.rtf wouldn't it be nice to have a pop-up asking something like Your version of Seamonkey is newer than the add-on is know to support try install anyway? [TRY] [CANCEL] Just my ten cents worth... That's a brilliant idea!! You can remove my post as well. :) Why should the suggestion get you thrown off. The most they could say your crazier than a Betsy bug! (Old saying in my area.) -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: Rufus schrieb: It's not really a case of Apple not allowing it - it's more a case of developers embracing, stepping up, and coding. There are a number of alternative browsers for iPad, the most popular (I can see why) being the Atomic browser - somewhat SM-like, and far more feature-rich than Safari on iOS. None of them is a browser by itself. Apple does NOT allow ANY software in their store that competes with some software they are providing with the device theirselves. All those alternatives are just Safari with a different costume, i.e. some other user interface around it. ...I dunno. I guess we're arguing coding semantics. Atomic is certainly a browser to me, because it browses. And it's functionality and feature set are vastly different from Safari, it certainly competes with Safari, I got it from the Apple App Store for 99 cents...and there are others there. So I don't buy your premise one bit as stated. Yes, it's platform-specific and uses some platform specific code, but so do a whole host of other software. I don't have an issue with that from any standpoint. But again, the way iOS works I find *far* less utility in the suite concept when working on my iPad Well, I'm reasonably sure that communication methods that don't run inside the browser will be mostly dying out in the next years. But then, that's just my opinion. Robert Kaiser The iPad is certainly the first device I've bought in a very long time that is actually changing the way I work. I'm sort of dubious about the approaching Lion OS...I'm not sure I'm going to like some of it's more iOS-like implementations on my desktop, but then again I'm not sure I won't. Everything changes...what matters more is still being able to make choices which suits the individual user. More products, more better. You are aware the only way to get Lion is have a Very good Internet Connection Perhaps FOIS or better. It will not be sold on DVD. It will only cost $29.00. Unfortunately with My puny DSL it will take at least 24 hours to download. I, and a lot of other have protested on the Apple newsgroups. And on the Feedback Channels are getting red hot to. In my Area, High speed anything is just not available. Cable is slow DSL is Slow and a lot of the people in my area are using Dial up. They just can't afford otherwise. -- Phillip M. Jones, C.E.T.If it's Fixed, Don't Break it http://www.phillipmjones.netmailto:pjon...@kimbanet.com ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
If it's based on Safari, it won't be Seamonkey. To develop a Gecko browser, it would be restricted to jailbroken devices. There's simply not enough users, not enough developer interest to do it. If there was interest, somebody would be doing it -- Mozilla is fully free software, after all. How does Midori, which ID's as Safari, fit in the mix? -- Thanks! 73, KD4E David Colburn http://kd4e.com Have an http://ultrafidian.com day I don't google I SEARCH! STARTPAGE.com Shop Freedom-Friendly http://kd4e.com/of.html ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
MCBastos a écrit : Now and then I click on the wrong status bar icon and open it when what I wanted was another module... what about quitting coffee ? -- cyberzen ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
PhillipJones schrieb: Answer me a Question. How many features have we users begged and plead for developers to keep and they were removed anyway? Fewer than the other way round. And the totally skewed sample of people here in this newsgroup is only a tiny piece of the overall user base. In any case, happy to not be in charge any more, makes laughing about this much easier than in earlier times. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Seamonkey 2.1 -- worst version ever
Rufus schrieb: I was thinking that Opera Mobile would be just the solution for iPad You know that Opera Mobile is not a browser and actually send everything you type in there to a central Opera server (and I'd guess that they try to market the data they're collecting there - I would if I would be a company that needs to make profit for its shareholders). If there isn't a combined suite solution for iPad soon, I may just finally chuck the suite concept altogether after all these years...pity. There will be no other Mozilla products than Firefox Home for the iPhone or iPad as long as Apple does not allow any competition to their own products to run there. Robert Kaiser -- Note that any statements of mine - no matter how passionate - are never meant to be offensive but very often as food for thought or possible arguments that we as a community should think about. And most of the time, I even appreciate irony and fun! :) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
