subject:"\[TruthTalk\] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit"









Terry, I agree with you. I dont
know anyone under the law except my Jewish friends. Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 3:22 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and
John on the Law and the Spirit





Terry believes that he is to follow his Savior, die to
self, do as He says. Terry does not offer lambs or sleep in tabernacles
or eat unleavened bread. Terry does not need a priest. Terry is a
priest, the same as any other born again believer. I can eat a lobster
without fear of angering God and I can go straight to the Lord with my prayers
from any place on this earth on any day of the week. Show me one person
under the law that can do that.
Terry

ShieldsFamily wrote: 

Amen, David. And does Terry believe this? Izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:27 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the SpiritGary wrote: 

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse 

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this list right now seems to believe this. The key word here is RELY. I do not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law. I hear her saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to comply with the righteous requirements of the law. We ought not reject obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?Romans 8:4(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk notafter the flesh, but after the Spirit.Peace be with you.David Miller. --Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




Say goodnight Flipper. 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 3:26 PMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on 
the Law and the Spirit



Your allegation was that we can only 
obey God and enter the Kingdom by becoming gods to ourselves. 
This sentence is something that I do not 
believe. Are you telling me that you agree with the sentence?? 
We accomplish nothing but self destruction when we try to become gods unto 
ourselves. I am hoping that you 
agree.
If not, its 
cultsville for you, my dear.  

JD





-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 
30 May 2005 11:58:24 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law 
and the Spirit



Obviously by speaking in context I am way over your head, 
JD. Your allegation was that we can only obey God and enter the Kingdom by 
becoming gods to ourselves. If you read the context of Luke 10:7 you would 
realize that Jesus was speaking to the disciples about the, on human terms, 
inability of sinnners to enter the Kingdom--but all things are possible with 
God. I'll leave you to connect the dots. Iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 7:43 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on 
the Law and the Spirit



Here is the perfect example of someone who either does not comprehend at a 
high level (say , similar to a dolphin) --- and Linda IS 
smarter than that OR we have someone who simply does not read the posts 
she responds to. We have Izzy arguing that God will help us become gods 
unto our selves. Maybe the Mormon brothers will agree -- but 
most of the rest of us are left scratching our heads  

Also, here is a great example for the need of interpretative rules. 
Does God inable us to sin? He makes ALL THINGS possible. Does 
He enable us to steal and murder? He makes ALL THINGS 
possible. But , hhh, wait a minute !! The text says "ALL 
THINGS." cARS AND BOATS AND, A $500 LUNKER STICK, a library 
full of really good porn - all "things." If God 
says it, I beleive (?) 

Think " Hermeneutic."

JD

Gots to go to work. -Original 
Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:43:40 -0500Subject: 
RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

I'm recommending a weekend workshop for you two and, for CPL and DaveH. I've
not yet decided what it shall be called but, it will have something to do
with the expressions: 'Oh ya , did not' and, 'liar, liar pants on fire'.

It's posts like these that almost (I said 'almost') begin to make me think
that I'M worth reading.


- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: May 31, 2005 00:09
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law
and the Spirit


 John wrote:
  The fact of the matter is this:  you can never present
  a post in which you copied my words.   That is the
  fact of the matter.

 That is not the fact of the matter, that is the lie of the matter.  I
 brought up a post dated May 26 in which I copied your words exactly as you
 wrote them.  Your response to my taking time to produce that post was:  I
 have already ended this discussion, David.  Check precious post.

 Copied below is that post where you failed to consider the evidence.

 David.

 - Original Message - 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
 Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 8:04 AM
 Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Ad hominem arguments

 -Original Message-
 From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
 Sent: Sun, 29 May 2005 02:03:12 -0400
 Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Ad hominem arguments

 David Miller wrote:
  I quoted you exactly as you wrote it

 John wrote:
  The very next sentence is EXACTLY  what I said.

 John wrote:
  I wrote:  Knowing you are right in some esoteric way
  is a fantasy of the first order.

 David Miller wrote:
  That is exactly how I quoted you John.
  Go back and look at the post.

 John wrote:
  You go back.  I already did and the result is the
  very next sentence.

 John wrote:
  You wrote:  You claim we can't know anything

 This last sentence is not my quote of you.  It is my communication to you
of
 what I understood you to be saying.  It is new content.  I precede quotes
 with  symbols.  You asked me to go back and look at the post to see
that
 I did not quote you correctly.  Well, I did go back and look, thinking
maybe
 I had a problem with my memory and owed you an apology, but instead I
found
 that you were wrong.  I did quote you correctly.  Look closely at the
second
 paragraph in the quote below.  However, I do not want to continue this
 discussion.  We have a new moderator now and we need to get back on the
 right foot of discussing interesting subjects, not playing word games of
you
 said / he said / she said.  If you have anything more to say on this
thread
 (like maybe an apology to me!), please take it private so we don't bore
the
 rest of the list.  I'm not holding my breath because I don't remember you
 ever admitting to being wrong.  I have already ended this discussion,
David.
 Check precious post.

 -
 - Original Message - 
 From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:11 AM
 Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation


 David Miller wrote:
  I would think from comments you have made that your
  position would be that there is a little bit of doubt in all
  of us.  Am I mistaken about that?

 John wrote:
  Yes ...
  Knowing you are right in some esoteric way
  is a fantasy of the first order.

 David Miller wrote:
  You claim that this teaching of Christ does not
  include us.  From my perspective, this emanates
  from doubt and unbelief.

 John wrote:
  S, if one disagrees with you, the
  problem is always one of doubt and disbelief?

 If I am speaking truth, yes, but the real point is that when somebody
 disagrees with Christ, the reason is doubt and unbelief.

 John wrote:
  When you disagree with me, David, it is
  because you are wrong !!  That'what I think.

 How can I be wrong if knowing you are right is a fantasy?  You are filled
 with contradictions here that make further conversation impossible without
 first resolving the issue of whether or not we can know anything.

 When I say that your perspective seems to be that there is a little doubt
 and unbelief in all of us, you disagree.  Yet, you then turn around and
 claim that knowing we are right about something is a fantasy.  You can't
 have it both ways.  We obviously have a huge disconnect here in regards to
 our terms of knowledge, knowing, doubt, and unbelief.  You must be working
 from some other definitions of these words or you are a completely
 irrational person.

 John wrote:
  It never has crossed my mind that you
  were one of doubt and disbeleif.

 Well, you should be thinking of me that way, because I have quite a bit of
 doubt and unbelief.  If I did not, I would be walking on water and doing
 many of the other things that Jesus said those who believed upon him would
 do (John 14:12).

 John wrote:
  Guaranteed I am

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




Jt says:'It's not'. Now, since David saw fit to 
intrude prior to your response, it's be good to have him comment on your 
response. DAVID, IS THIS ESSENTIALLY YOUR POSITION? Please answere yes or 
no.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 15:38
  Subject: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John 
  on the Law and the Spirit
  
  It's not; actually it is Jesus of Nazareth, only 
  begotten Son of God who was the Word made flesh who came
  and dwelt for a time amongst us. 
jt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 13:11:09 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  No. I am asking you Judy since you are the one I 
  am communicating with at present. I've no idea who that is on that 'cross' you 
  
  are preaching. It'd appear 
  not to be the eternal, incarnate, Son, the Person of the Trinitarian God Who 
  was neither the Father nor the Spirit.
  

From: Judy Taylor 

  No I am asking you Lance 
  since you are the one I am communicating with at present.
  The way I see it responding to the cross causes 
  us to agree with God that in our flesh dwells no good thing so we agree to 
  die to the old man and walk in the newness of the Spirit. Whereas 
  the "incarnational gospel" tells everyone God loves them as is and they 
  are "in" because of the DBR of Christ. jt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:25:57 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
As you find in him authority, why not ask 
David if he might speak of the relation of the Incarnation to the 
Atonement? 

From: Judy Taylor 

  I understand you to 
  be asking me what I believe about the incarnation Lance - if I am 
  setting 'the cross over against the incarnation' and if Paul preached 
  the cross over against the incarnation.
  
  If the incarnation is left in it's proper 
  setting then I don't see any reason to come against it. However, when 
  it is taken from it's rightful place and made into something God never 
  intended then I would answer yes to the above.
  
  1. I agree that God supplied a body for His 
  only begotten son through a virgin by the name of Mary and that this 
  is a fact historically.
  
  2. I disagree with the "doctrine" of the 
  incarnation because so far as I can see it does not deal with God's 
  judgment against sin and it does nothing to lead God's ppl into 
  righteousness and holiness
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 06:43:06 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Jt:Please read my post one more time. 
Tell me what it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking of 
you.thanks for 
this,
Lance

  From: Judy Taylor 
  
  Yes I am saying that the apostle Paul 
  preached the cross - I see it in his writings. As for this 
  Perichoresis
  and Icarnation it would be better if you 
  tell us what their significance is since you ar the expert. I'm 
  not so
  sure it is basically different from 
  universalism. jt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 05:38:50 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Jt:Do I understand you to be setting 'the cross' over AGAINST 'the 
incarnation'? 
Do I understand you to be saying 
that it was 'the cross' that Paul preached 
over AGAINST 'the incarnation'?
What is it that you understand 
regarding the so-called 'incarnational gospel'? With what do you 
1. agree 2 disagree?

  From: Judy Taylor 
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:18:08 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct 
  answer to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as 
  opposed to the works (obedience) of the Law. I think 
  "He" is God, but I will give you Paul for the sake of 
  argument -- How did Paul provide you with the 
  Spirit and the working of miracles -- through the 
  works of the Law or by the hearing with faith. My point 
  is the same. jt: Yes the Spirit of 
  God works the miracles but He works through men. 
  
  JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my 
  point. The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were

Re: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

There never was a 'plan B' with God. It never was:
first Law (oops, didn't work)then Grace.This is really rather important as
it says something about the sort of God we serve.

- Original Message -

From:
ShieldsFamily
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org

Sent: May 31, 2005 04:37
Subject: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and
John on the Law and the Spirit

Terry, I agree with
you. I dont know anyone under the law except my Jewish friends.
Izzy

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 3:22
PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on
the Law and the Spirit

Terry believes that he is to follow his Savior, die to
self, do as He says. Terry does not offer lambs or sleep in tabernacles
or eat unleavened bread. Terry does not need a priest. Terry is a
priest, the same as any other born again believer. I can eat a lobster
without fear of angering God and I can go straight to the Lord with my prayers
from any place on this earth on any day of the week. Show me one person
under the law that can do that.TerryShieldsFamily wrote:
Amen, David. And does Terry believe this? Izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:27 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the SpiritGary wrote:
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this list right now seems to believe this. The key word here is "RELY." I do not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law. I hear her saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to comply with the righteous requirements of the law. We ought not reject obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?Romans 8:4(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk notafter the flesh, but after the Spirit.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Do you agree or disagree AND who is calling whom a "dolphin" - will Perry caution you as well? Will the sun, soon to shine, raise its magnificanceon honesty and forthrightnesss? Time will tell.

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 03:38:53 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Say goodnight Flipper. 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 3:26 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Your allegation was that we can only obey God and enter the Kingdom by becoming gods to ourselves. This sentence is something that I do not believe. Are you telling me that you agree with the sentence?? We accomplish nothing but self destruction when we try to become gods unto ourselves. I am hoping that you agree.
If not, its cultsville for you, my dear.  

JD





-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 11:58:24 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Obviously by speaking in context I am way over your head, JD. Your allegation was that we can only obey God and enter the Kingdom by becoming gods to ourselves. If you read the context of Luke 10:7 you would realize that Jesus was speaking to the disciples about the, on human terms, inability of sinnners to enter the Kingdom--but all things are possible with God. I'll leave you to connect the dots. Iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 7:43 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Here is the perfect example of someone who either does not comprehend at a high level (say , similar to a dolphin) --- and Linda IS smarter than that OR we have someone who simply does not read the posts she responds to. We have Izzy arguing that God will help us become gods unto our selves. Maybe the Mormon brothers will agree -- but most of the rest of us are left scratching our heads  

Also, here is a great example for the need of interpretative rules. Does God inable us to sin? He makes ALL THINGS possible. Does He enable us to steal and murder? He makes ALL THINGS possible. But , hhh, wait a minute !! The text says "ALL THINGS." cARS AND BOATS AND, A $500 LUNKER STICK, a library full of really good porn - all "things." If God says it, I beleive (?) 

Think " Hermeneutic."

JD

Gots to go to work. -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:43:40 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Terry have you ever done a study of the teachings of
your Savior? If so, I am sure you found that they are all rooted in the Old
Testament God's statutes, testimonies, and
commandments have not changed because He has not changed (Mal 3:6). Paul
wrote "Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! On the
contrary we establish the law" (Romans 3:31).

On Mon, 30 May 2005 16:30:27 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I believe that all the law given to Moses was for the children of
Isreal. That is what the Bible says and I believe the Bible to be
true. That includes the ten commandments. Even if you tried, you
could not keep the law, Judy. It has never been done by anyone but
Christ. I live by the teaching of my Savior, and
consider His two commands to cover all moral law. Jesus is the alpha
and the omega. It is Him for me, A to Z, start to finish. He is
all I need.TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Oh, you are referring to the Levitical system that
was nailed to the cross; John and I have been discussing God's moral law (at least I have). Surely you don't believe the 10
Commandments were just for the children of Israel or do you? jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:09:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff
along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to
say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them
many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or
shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them
all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I
wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy
Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying is
dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it
has always been Christ. Israel are
the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans
11). God's ppl are God's ppl in
every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If
you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai.
jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless
he/she voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor
wrote:

Terry the law still judges us
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of
God" says that we will reap as we
sow. It isnot necessary
to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a difference between God's moral law and the
Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the
former still stands and has not gone
anywhere. We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk
after the Spirit and reckon our old
flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and I
wrestle with periodically. The
gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to
everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you
has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish
proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47
-0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:You are
a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank
you. Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is
a legalist

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Judy believes that walking in love fulfills the Law and
when we obey the gospel and walk in love toward otherswe establish the law
(Romans 3:31). When we speak evil of the law we put ourselves in the
position of judging God's Law
(James 4:11). We shall be judged by the Law of
Liberty which is love (James 2:12).

Jesus said we will be judged by the Words He spoke
(John 12:48) I would like to see you separate the words Jesus spoke during his
earthly ministry from the Commandments, Statutes, and Judgments that have been
there from the beginning.

On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:25:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Judy makes thekeeping of the Law a requirement, arguing that
the law is in force to this day. That is both unbiblical and counter to the Law of the Spirit. That
is the issue.More than this, she does not have a
biblical consider of the incarnation -- something
that borders on bothe the occult and the heretical.

From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Gary wrote:
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this
list right now seems to believe this. The key word here is "RELY." I do
not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law. I hear her
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to
comply with the righteous requirements of the law. We ought not reject
obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ.
The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?

Romans 8:4
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not
after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how
you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
he will be subscribed.

[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

JD What is the law of the Spirit of Life in
Christ?
What is the law of sin and death?
How do they differ? jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:29:40 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

She IS speaking of the Mosaical Law. Read her posts,
sometime. JDFrom: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law. She is
speaking about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God.
You know; like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a
problem here? If so, show us the scriptural refutation please.
Izzy

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry
Clifton
I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff
along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say
about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times
I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham
sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them
all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I
wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor
wrote:

I understand what you are saying is
dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has
always been Christ. Israel are the
natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11).
God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation
and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his
teachings you will find they reflect the Law
given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God"
says that we will reap as we sow.
It isnot necessary to be a Jewish
proselyte. Also there is a difference
between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been
nailed to the cross, the former still
stands and has not gone anywhere. We can fulfill it through
Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the
problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional
acceptance to everyone and does not deal with
theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has
ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish
proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:You are a
legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank
you. Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is a
legalist too. Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to
die for your sins.

John responds: There can be
no argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the
curse of the Law awayBlessed are those whose "sins and
iniquities are remembered no more." Where there is
forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for
sin -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the
Law, we have the end of
law.

jt: Christ did not become a curse
for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse
is still all over those ppl and
they
are wearing it. Sickness is the
curse of the law.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Terry will have his answer to this, one that I very interested in seeing.Christ public ministry was to the Jews -- thus the phrase "to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles." Christ lived and died under the the Old Testament - he being the author of the New Testament. The Hebrews writer tells us that a testament (as in NEw Testament) is not in effect until the death of its author. The world of Abraham and Isaac, the world of faith apart from law, was repaired or reconciled. We are no long under law.

The return to law is a favorite pastime of so many well meaning disciples.. I do not know why but it is the fact of the matter. That is what is happening in the Galatian letter. Paul presents Hagar as "Mount Sinai." And one cannot speak of that mountain without thinking of the Ten Commandments. They are included in his comments, without reasonable doubt.

In fulfilling the requirements of the Law, Christ ended its authority and issued in the rule of the Spirit. And so we have His words -- it is finished. A very painful transition but a transition nonetheless.

More evidence of this is found in the letter written to the Gentiles in Acts 15. The solution to the conflict between certain Judaizers and the Gentile church was given a cultural solution: prohibitions regarding meats and an imperative against fornication. This imperative is a part of the command "thou shalt not commit adultery" It is not a part of the Levitical law, is it?

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:59:58 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Terry have you ever done a study of the teachings of your Savior? If so, I am sure you found that they are all rooted in the Old Testament God's statutes, testimonies, and commandments have not changed because He has not changed (Mal 3:6). Paul wrote "Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary we establish the law" (Romans 3:31).

On Mon, 30 May 2005 16:30:27 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I believe that all the law given to Moses was for the children of Isreal. That is what the Bible says and I believe the Bible to be true. That includes the ten commandments. Even if you tried, you could not keep the law, Judy. It has never been done by anyone but Christ. I live by the teaching of my Savior, and consider His two commands to cover all moral law. Jesus is the alpha and the omega. It is Him for me, A to Z, start to finish. He is all I need.TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Oh, you are referring to the Levitical system that was nailed to the cross; John and I have been discussing God's moral law (at least I have). Surely you don't believe the 10 Commandments were just for the children of Israel or do you? jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:09:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying is dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ. Israel are the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


I have dealt with the issue. You have chosen to ignore the somewhat exegetical reply as it regarded comments on theGalatian texts.Your question below speaks of Ommandents, Statues, and Judgments. All that in the Ten Commandments? What is included by you in this wording?

Jd-Original Message- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:08:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Judy believes that walking in love fulfills the Law and when we obey the gospel and walk in love toward otherswe establish the law (Romans 3:31). When we speak evil of the law we put ourselves in the position of judging God's Law
(James 4:11). We shall be judged by the Law of Liberty which is love (James 2:12).

Jesus said we will be judged by the Words He spoke (John 12:48) I would like to see you separate the words Jesus spoke during his earthly ministry from the Commandments, Statutes, and Judgments that have been there from the beginning.

On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:25:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


Judy makes thekeeping of the Law a requirement, arguing that the law is in force to this day. That is both unbiblical and counter to the Law of the Spirit. That is the issue.More than this, she does not have a biblical consider of the incarnation -- something that borders on bothe the occult and the heretical. 

JD


From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Gary wrote:
 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this 
list right now seems to believe this.  The key word here is "RELY."  I do 
not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law.  I hear her 
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to 
comply with the righteous requirements of the law.  We ought not reject 
obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. 
The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?

Romans 8:4
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not 
after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how 
you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend 
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he will be subscribed.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-31 Thread David Miller

Lance wrote:
 It's posts like these that almost (I said 'almost') begin
 to make me think that I'M worth reading.

You are right, Lance.  I'm sorry for defending myself.  The floor is yours. 
I have disqualified myself.

David. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

DM offers Lance the 'floor'. Lance, having been given the floor, reminds DM
that the operative word in his very own post was 'almost'. I defer to you
Mr. Moderator.

- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: May 31, 2005 09:06
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John
on the Law and the Spirit

 Lance wrote:
  It's posts like these that almost (I said 'almost') begin
  to make me think that I'M worth reading.

 You are right, Lance.  I'm sorry for defending myself.  The floor is
yours.
 I have disqualified myself.

 David.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  Do you agree or disagree AND who is calling whom a "dolphin"

  
  


In order to qualify for dolphinhood, you must not only be able to think
and learn. You must have a nose like a bottle. A quick self
examination will solve this dilemma.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



You refer to Romans 8:2. You need to be careful, here, Judy, not to have Paul in Romans contradicting Paul in Galatians. Romans 8:2 is to be considered along with the larger context and (especially) vers 3. If you look to verse three, you will discover that the Law's weakness (our fleshly failure to comply with its charge) is corrected by by the work of the Incarnate Christ in His death (His offering for sin) . 

In 7:25, Paul concludes that his service is divided. He serves God with his mind while his flesh serves the law of sin (and death). The contrast is between his mind and his flesh. Paul "redefines" the idea of "spirit " and "flesh" in Ro 8:5 when he tells us that that those who are in the "flesh" are those who have their minds set on things of the flesh while those "in the Spirit" are those who have their minds set on things of the Spirit. And then he says (v10) this: " And if Christ is in you (if your mind is set on things of the Spirit), though THE BODY IS DEAD Because OF SIN (as judged by the law) yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness (the righteousness of Christ Jesus v 3). 

This Perichoresis you resist, this restorative gospel you reject is really nothing more than the full accounting of the gospel message. At the center of this thinking is Jesus Christ -- in a way that is not the case in any other theology. That is exactly what is so appealing to me as a disciple.

Here you have yet another example of such. The law's "failure" is our flesh. What saves us from the sad conclusion of this, our failure, is not empowerment to suddenly live a perfect life as defined by the Law - but the life and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God.Our bodies remain dead because of sin but our spirit is alive INCHRIST.  

JD

 -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:15:28 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



JD What is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ?
What is the law of sin and death? 
How do they differ? jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:29:40 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



She IS speaking of the Mosaical Law. Read her posts, sometime. JDFrom: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law. She is speaking about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God. You know; like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a problem here? If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton
I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

I understand what you are saying is dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ. Israel are the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

Terry the law still judges us wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says that we will reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a difference between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 







On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

John responds: There can be

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-31 Thread ttxpress




the issue of 
'discipleship' is at the core and crossroads of numerous issues on the TT table; 
e.g., 
the 
observation, below, is accurate in its NT context but 'following' JC today 
requires redefining discipleship per se...it's not that the NT fails to 
make this point; Jesus himself realizes that people (will) trust him implicitly 
whom have never 'met' him..it follows that amongmodern practioners of 
religion are those who abusehis term 'disciple', particthrough 
literalizing it; the/ir abuse turns in part on incorporating JC directly into 
their preexisting value system never having literally 'followed' him 
anywhere--nor,ifconfronted with the realitywould they prefer 
to anyway..where the normativepreexisting value system is religious 
legalism, JC, acc to the NT obliterates it,the abuse/s of the Law, but not 
the Law as God's word--in JCs view,God designed the Law of Moses for the 
cultural well being of its historic adherents; however, its role changes as 
history changes--the point is that history changed through the Incarnation (like 
'I and the Father are one')whichlegalist religionists despise; 
fromIncarnation(al theology)on, legalism's exposed, its inherent 
weaknesses delineated, its abuses obliterated; basically, JC did this 'work'(of 
grace) partic for his closest associates--e.g., i know what he has done for me 
in part because of what he did for (e.g.)the Ap Johnand the Ap 
Paul--the three of us are JCs associates, but only one of uswas his 
'disciple' per se, the Ap John...


On Tue, 31 May 2005 08:47:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  The return to law is a favorite pastime of so many well meaning 
disciples..

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  
  Terry have you ever done a study of the
teachings of your Savior? If so, I am sure you found that they are all
rooted in the Old Testament God's
statutes, testimonies, and commandments have not changed because He has
not changed (Mal 3:6). Paul wrote "Do we then nullify the law through
faith? May it never be! On the contrary we establish the law" (Romans
3:31).
  
  I've heard one Bible teacher use the
analogy of the "law of lift" which is from aerodynamics to explain the
spiritual walk ie: We are not under the law so long as we are walking
by the spirit. However, if we fall back and allow the flesh to take
over once more the law will judge us because "sin transgresses the law
-sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) jt
  

Judy, Judy, Judy! If you have never been under the law, you cannot
fall back to it. Study the two laws given us by Jesus. Try to find
one moral law that is not more than covered by these two that Jesus
gave. Try to find one shred of dress code or dietary requirement or
tradition or tithing to priests or animal sacrifice that He requires of
His followers. The two commands that I follow are far superior to the
law given Moses.
The Mosaic law had value, but the teachings of Christ are more
valuable. Both had moral requirements. Jesus spells out those
requirements more completely than did the law of Moses. Old testament
saints were in most cases allowed to hate their enemy. We do not have
that luxury. They were allowed to take their brother to court to right
a wrong. We are to suffer wrong rather than sue a brother. Can you
see from just a couple of examples that though the law of Moses and the
law of Christ had many similarities, the law of Christ is superior?
Can you see that while it offers more freedom concerning diet and dress
and giving, it is more demanding as to how we think and how we walk and
how we love?
Go back and read the last verse in Leviticus again. You will either
have to agree that you are not under Mosaic law or that God is a liar.
I am sure you will not choose the latter option, and if you do not,
then you must choose the first option, that being that you were never
under the law.

Are you accountable for your moral behavior? The answer is a
resounding YES, more so under the teaching of Jesus than any Jew ever
was under Moses. I am not saying that not being under the law allows
you to be lawless. I am saying that we who are Christians obey out of
love for Christ. I am sure that you agree.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





Judy Taylor wrote:

  
  
  You refer to the Levitical Law which was
nailed to the cross Terry; I am speaking of sin which transgresses
  God's moral law and when we continually
choose to practice this (whether or not we have said our
words) God's Law judges us.Satan's hands are tied so long as we are
walking where we should be - When we break God's moral law the
adversaryis free to implement the curse.
  Look at the scenario at the end where Jesus
judges the nations separating the sheep from the goats. The ones who
are rejected have been "practicing lawlessness" which is not possible
where there is no Law. jt
  

The Levitical law was full of moral do and moral don't, Just as the
Teachings of Christ are. You cannot seperate the law of Moses from
morality.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-31 Thread Kevin Deegan

jdmust have had another attack of TYPOglycemia, It has now progressed to MEMORYglycemia!
John wrote: The fact of the matter is this: you can never presenta post in which you copied my words. That is the fact of the matter. That is not the fact of the matter, that is the lie of the matter. I brought up a post dated May 26 in which I copied your words exactly as you wrote them. Your response to my taking time to produce that post was: "I have already ended this discussion, David. Check precious post." Copied below is that post where you failed to consider the evidence. David. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Ad hominem arguments -Original Message- From: David Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sun, 29 May 2005 02:03:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Ad hominem arguments David Miller wrote: I quoted you exactly as you wrote it John wrote: The very next sentence is EXACTLY what I said. John wrote: I wrote: Knowing you are right in some esoteric way is a fantasy of the first order. David Miller wrote: That is exactly how I quoted you John. Go back and look at the post. John wrote: You go back. I already did and the result is the very next sentence. John wrote: You wrote: "You claim we can't know anything" This last sentence is not my quote of you. It is my communication to youof what I understood you to be saying. It is new
content. I precede quotes with "" symbols. You asked me to go back and look at the post to seethat I did not quote you correctly. Well, I did go back and look, thinkingmaybe I had a problem with my memory and owed you an apology, but instead Ifound that you were wrong. I did quote you correctly. Look closely at thesecond paragraph in the quote below. However, I do not want to continue this discussion. We have a new moderator now and we need to get back on the right foot of discussing interesting subjects, not playing word games ofyou said / he said / she said. If you have anything more to say on thisthread (like maybe an apology to me!), please take it private so we don't borethe rest of the list. I'm not holding my breath because I don't remember you ever admitting to being wrong. I have already ended this discussion,David. Check precious
post. - - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation David Miller wrote: I would think from comments you have made that your position would be that there is a little bit of doubt in all of us. Am I mistaken about that? John wrote: Yes ... Knowing you are right in some esoteric way is a fantasy of the first order. David Miller wrote: You claim that this teaching of Christ does not include us. From my perspective, this emanates from doubt and unbelief. John wrote: S, if one disagrees
with you, the problem is always one of doubt and disbelief? If I am speaking truth, yes, but the real point is that when somebody disagrees with Christ, the reason is doubt and unbelief. John wrote: When you disagree with me, David, it is because you are wrong !! That'what I think. How can I be wrong if knowing you are right is a fantasy? You are filled with contradictions here that make further conversation impossible without first resolving the issue of whether or not we can know anything. When I say that your perspective seems to be that there is a little doubt and unbelief in all of us, you disagree. Yet, you then turn around and claim that knowing we are right about something is a fantasy. You can't have it both ways. We obviously have a huge disconnect here in regards to our terms of knowledge, knowing, doubt, and
unbelief. You must be working from some other definitions of these words or you are a completely irrational person. John wrote: It never has crossed my mind that you were one of doubt and disbeleif. Well, you should be thinking of me that way, because I have quite a bit of doubt and unbelief. If I did not, I would be walking on water and doing many of the other things that Jesus said those who believed upon him would do (John 14:12). John wrote: Guaranteed I am not. And you think I am arrogant and you are not? This is one of the most arrogant statements I have ever heard on TruthTalk. If you know any way to explain what doubt and unbelief and knowledge meanto you, please try. We have grossly different understandings of these words. You claim we can't know anything and yet at the same time not have
doubtand unbelief. When my mind hears that, it reacts like that robot on "Lost in Space" saying, "It does not compute." [I borrowed from my childhood memories of "Lost in Space" just for Lance. :-)] I would like to discuss this subject further, but

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit









Exactly right. The only way to be under
the law is by trying to keep the law w/o Christor by walking in
the flesh (Self) instead of in Christ. The moral laws in the OT are
the same moral laws of the NT. They never changed. But when we are
in Christ we realize that the written OT laws are only the surface, like the
difference between reading a Dick and Jane primer in first grade
and reading and understanding the Bible as an adult. The fullness of the
moral law is when it springs forth from a heart transformed by the Presence of
Christ withinthen our actions go so much farther than just the minimal
requirements of the OT written law. 



For instance, instead of complying with
the OT written law against adultery, which can be obeyed superficially by doing
everything up to but not including sexual activity, when we obey the NT
unwritten law of Christ we are grieved even by the thought of defrauding
another persons mate, or our own. When we married my husband
pledged even our eyes to each other; we never look upon another person
lustfully. We never entertain lustful thoughts. We never place
ourselves in compromising situations, alone with a member of the opposite sex
that would have even the appearance of wrongdoing. And we avoid ever
putting another person in a situation that might make them appear to do
wrong. For instance, whenever my husband has a meeting with a woman at
work he keeps his office door wide open. 



The OT and NT laws are
simply Gods standards written in such a way as we might understand
them. That is why they are good and wonderful and righteous: They express
the heart of God. Once we have a new heart in Christ, we have those same
desires. Then obeying them is not a work of the flesh, but a natural
_expression_ of who we are in Him, and who He is in us. Any time we are not
acting out of such natural motivation we are certainly not dwelling in His
Spirit, or allowing His Spirit to dwell in us. That is why whenever there
is mean name-calling, belittling, animosity, superiority, condescension, sarcasm,
spitefulness, etc., on TruthTalk , Christ is being abandoned for
Self/Flesh. This is sin. In the OT or the New. Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 3:26
AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE:
[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit







There never was a 'plan B' with God.
It never was: first Law (oops, didn't work)then Grace.This is really
rather important as it says something about the sort of God we serve.











- Original Message - 







From: ShieldsFamily






To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 





Sent: May 31, 2005 04:37





Subject: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the
Spirit









Terry, I agree with you. I
dont know anyone under the law except my Jewish friends.
Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 3:22 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and
John on the Law and the Spirit





Terry believes that he is to follow his Savior, die to
self, do as He says. Terry does not offer lambs or sleep in tabernacles
or eat unleavened bread. Terry does not need a priest. Terry is a
priest, the same as any other born again believer. I can eat a lobster
without fear of angering God and I can go straight to the Lord with my prayers
from any place on this earth on any day of the week. Show me one person
under the law that can do that.
Terry

ShieldsFamily wrote: 

Amen, David. And does Terry believe this? Izzy-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:27 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the SpiritGary wrote: 

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse 

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this list right now seems to believe this. The key word here is RELY. I do not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law. I hear her saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to comply with the righteous requirements of the law. We ought not reject obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?Romans 8:4(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk notafter the flesh, but after the Spirit.Peace be with you.David Miller. --Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-31 Thread Kevin Deegan

You guys do not realize it, but you come across the way the Pharisees and scholars of Jesus day questioned Jesus.

They are the "Ministers of Questions" 1 Tim 1:4David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Lance wrote: Warn people not to respond.I did not warn her not to respond. I asked her to be careful in how she responded. You guys do not realize it, but you come across the way the Pharisees and scholars of Jesus day questioned Jesus. The questions seem simple enough, but they merely setup answers by which ammunition can be taken to attack and accuse. I would like to see Judy answer your question about how she understands your doctrine of the Incarnation, but she should be careful in how she answers you. I don't want to read a repeat of what John did to me, accusing me of misrepresenting and misquoting him. You seem to understand more about language, semantics and syntax, than John does, but your reaction to John's dialogue with me gives me concern for Judy and hence my encouragement for her to use wisdom. I think she
understands where I am coming from.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




Good analogy, Judy. Bernouli's Lawis one law (Lift) 
operating over and above another (Gravity). I remember that from my hot 
air ballooning days. Iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy 
TaylorSent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 6:00 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on 
the Law and the Spirit

Terry have you ever done a study of the teachings of 
your Savior? If so, I am sure you found that they are all rooted in the Old 
Testament God's statutes, testimonies, and 
commandments have not changed because He has not changed (Mal 3:6). Paul 
wrote "Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! On the 
contrary we establish the law" (Romans 3:31).

I've heard one Bible teacher use the analogy of the 
"law of lift" which is from aerodynamics to explain the spiritual walk ie: We 
are not under the law so long as we are walking by the spirit. However, if 
we fall back and allow the flesh to take over once more the law will judge us 
because "sin transgresses the law -sin is the transgression of the law (1 
John 3:4) jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 16:30:27 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  I believe that all the law given to Moses was for the children of 
  Isreal. That is what the Bible says and I believe the Bible to be 
  true. That includes the ten commandments. Even if you tried, you 
  could not keep the law, Judy. It has never been done by anyone but 
  Christ. I live by the teaching of my Savior, and 
  consider His two commands to cover all moral law. Jesus is the alpha 
  and the omega. It is Him for me, A to Z, start to finish. He is 
  all I need.TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 
  
Oh, you are referring to the Levitical system that 
was nailed to the cross; John and I have been discussing God's moral law (at least I have). Surely you don't believe the 10 
Commandments were just for the children of Israel or do you? jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:09:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff 
  along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to 
  say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them 
  many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or 
  shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them 
  all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 
  

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I 
wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy 
  Taylor wrote: 
  

I understand what you are saying is 
dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it 
has always been Christ. Israel are 
the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 
11). God's ppl are God's ppl in 
every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If 
you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai. 
jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of 
  Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless 
  he/she voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor 
  wrote: 
  

Terry the law still judges us 
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of 
God" says that we will reap as we 
sow. It isnot necessary 
to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a difference between God's moral law and the 
Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the 
former still stands and has not gone 
anywhere. We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk 
after the Spirit and reckon our old 
flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and I 
wrestle with periodically. The 
gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to 
everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you 
  has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish 
  proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit






On Tue, 31 May 2005 09:36:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  You refer to Romans 8:2. You need to be careful, here, Judy, 
  not to have Paul in Romans contradicting Paul in Galatians. Romans 8:2 is to be considered along with the 
  larger context and (especially) vers 
  3. If you look to verse three, you will discover that the Law's 
  weakness (our fleshly failure to comply with its charge) is corrected by by 
  the work of the Incarnate Christ in His death (His offering for sin) 
  .
  
  jt:Paul does not ever contradict himself and 
  I'm not contradicting him either. Sin in the flesh has been condemned 
  (Romans 7:9) and I agree thatChristbecame an offering for sin but 
  not so that we could hold on to it. 
  
  In 7:25, Paul concludes that his service is divided. He serves God 
  with his mind while his flesh serves the law of 
  sin (and death). 
  
  jt: Not exactly JD; Paul said in Romans 7:17 that sin 
  was dwelling in him, not that his flesh served sin; 
  he said the law of sin was in 
  his members. This is the result of the fall 
  that you (so far as I can tell) dispute. But Paul did not serve
  that law.
  
  The contrast is between his mind and his 
  flesh. Paul "redefines" the idea of "spirit " and "flesh" in Ro 8:5 when he tells us that that those who are in the "flesh" 
  are those who have their minds set on things of the flesh while those "in the 
  Spirit" are those who have their minds set on things of the Spirit. 
  
  
  jt: You are complicating things here JD. Mind 
  and flesh are different fromSpirit and flesh because the mind is part of 
  the soul and Heb 4:12 tells us that soul and spirit can be divided. Therefore 
  the spirit is not the mind. Man is triune.
  
  And then he says (v10) this: " And if 
  Christ is in you (if your mind is set on things of the Spirit), though THE 
  BODY IS DEAD Because OF SIN (as judged by 
  the law) yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness (the 
  righteousness of Christ Jesus v 3). 
  
  jt: Nothing happens by osmosis JD; the mind is not 
  set on the spiritualunless this is our choice (daily) and it is 
  carnal
  until we determine to renew it in God's Word (by 
  theLaw you spurn) - AlsoJesus fulfilling the Law is only the first 
  part;
  the requirements of the Law must also be fulfilled IN 
  US (Romans 8:4)
  
  This Perichoresis you resist, this 
  restorative gospel you reject is really nothing more than the full accounting 
  of the gospel message. 
  
  jt: It's a twisted accounting of the gospel message 
  making the covenant one sided. There must be a death on the part of 
  both. When Abraham accepted God's call he left all he was familiar with 
  and died to everything he had known. Same
  with us, we must die to carnality and our old 
  unregenerated flesh nature and walk after the Spirit as per Romans 8:1b (in 
  the majority text).
  
  At the center of this thinking is 
  Jesus Christ -- in a way that is not the case in any other theology. That is exactly what is so 
  appealing to me as a disciple.
  
  jt: It's the same as die hard Calvinism - it's a 
  theology that puts everything off on God and expects nothing from us. This 
  has never been God's way. Relationship can 
  not be one sided.
  
  Here you have yet another example of such. The law's 
  "failure" is our flesh. What saves us from the sad conclusion of this, 
  our failure, is not empowerment to 
  suddenly live a perfect life as defined by the Law - but the life 
  and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God.Our bodies remain 
  dead because of sin but our spirit is alive INCHRIST.JD
  
  jt: Redemption in Christ does 
  not mean that we follow on in bondage to the old dead flesh with a little 
  "live" spirit 
  hidden inside. Jesus is 
  coming for a Church without spot, wrinkle, or blemish, and our spirit, soul, 
  and body should
  be found blameless at His 
  coming (1 Thess 5:23)
  
   From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]com
  

  
  JD What is the 
  law of the Spirit of Life in Christ?
  What is the law of sin and death? 
  How do they differ? jt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:29:40 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  


She IS speaking of the Mosaical 
Law. Read her posts, sometime. JDFrom: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law. She is 
speaking about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of 
God. You know; like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do 
you have a problem here? If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. 
Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
Terry Clifton
I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional 
stuff along the same line from the NT, 
check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about gentiles not being under 
(Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I am sure, or you would 
never have eaten a

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit






From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry 
CliftonSent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:33 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on 
the Law and the Spirit
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  Do you agree or disagree AND who is calling whom a "dolphin" 
  
In 
order to qualify for dolphinhood, you must not only be able to think and 
learn. You must have a nose like a bottle. A quick self examination 
will solve this dilemma.


ROFL!!!

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  

  

  
  
  
  Exactly
right. The only way to be under
the law is by trying to keep the law w/o Christor by walking in
the flesh (Self) instead of in Christ. The moral laws in the OT are
the same moral laws of the NT. They never changed. But when we are
in Christ we realize that the written OT laws are only the surface,
like the
difference between reading a Dick and Jane primer in first grade
and reading and understanding the Bible as an adult. The fullness of
the
moral law is when it springs forth from a heart transformed by the
Presence of
Christ withinthen our actions go so much farther than just the minimal
requirements of the OT written law. 
  
  For
instance, instead of complying with
the OT written law against adultery, which can be obeyed superficially
by doing
everything up to but not including sexual activity, when we obey the NT
unwritten law of Christ we are grieved even by the thought of
defrauding
another persons mate, or our own. When we married my husband
pledged even our eyes to each other; we never look upon another person
lustfully. We never entertain lustful thoughts. We never place
ourselves in compromising situations, alone with a member of the
opposite sex
that would have even the appearance of wrongdoing. And we avoid ever
putting another person in a situation that might make them appear to do
wrong. For instance, whenever my husband has a meeting with a woman at
work he keeps his office door wide open. 
  
  The OT and
NT laws are
simply Gods standards written in such a way as we might understand
them. That is why they are good and wonderful and righteous: They
express
the heart of God. Once we have a new heart in Christ, we have those
same
desires. Then obeying them is not a work of the flesh, but a natural
_expression_ of who we are in Him, and who He is in us. Any time we are
not
acting out of such natural motivation we are certainly not dwelling in
His
Spirit, or allowing His Spirit to dwell in us. That is why whenever
there
is mean name-calling, belittling, animosity, superiority,
condescension, sarcasm,
spitefulness, etc., on TruthTalk , Christ is being abandoned for
Self/Flesh. This is sin. In the OT or the New. Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  

You know, I
think you might have figured it out.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


I sincerely appreciate your time and comments. Well putand something to think about. 

JD-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:37:56 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



the issue of 'discipleship' is at the core and crossroads of numerous issues on the TT table; e.g., the observation, below, is accurate in its NT context but 'following' JC today requires redefining discipleship per se...it's not that the NT fails to make this point; Jesus himself realizes that people (will) trust him implicitly whom have never 'met' him..it follows that amongmodern practioners of religion are those who abusehis term 'disciple', particthrough literalizing it; the/ir abuse turns in part on incorporating JC directly into their preexisting value system never having literally 'followed' him anywhere--nor,ifconfronted with the realitywould they prefer to anyway..where the normativepreexisting value system is religious legalism, JC, acc to the NT obliterates it,the abuse/s 
of the Law, but not the Law as God's word--in JCs view,God designed the Law of Moses for the cultural well being of its historic adherents; however, its role changes as history changes--the point is that history changed through the Incarnation (like 'I and the Father are one')whichlegalist religionists despise; fromIncarnation(al theology)on, legalism's exposed, its inherent weaknesses delineated, its abuses obliterated; basically, JC did this 'work'(of grace) partic for his closest associates--e.g., i know what he has done for me in part because of what he did for (e.g.)the Ap Johnand the Ap Paul--the three of us are JCs associates, but only one of uswas his 'disciple' per se, the Ap John...


On Tue, 31 May 2005 08:47:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



The return to law is a favorite pastime of so many well meaning disciples..

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Whew !! -- I have a rather cute littlenasal facade so call me Ralph or Barry, anything but Flipper !!! 
-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:32:38 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 



Do you agree or disagree AND who is calling whom a "dolphin" In order to qualify for dolphinhood, you must not only be able to think and learn. You must have a nose like a bottle. A quick self examination will solve this dilemma.

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

I will bow to Terry's presentation, here.And a better job that I cando with the same number of words (.."number of words .." nay).

-Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:20:29 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Judy Taylor wrote:

Terry have you ever done a study of the teachings of your Savior? If so, I am sure you found that they are all rooted in the Old Testament God's statutes, testimonies, and commandments have not changed because He has not changed (Mal 3:6). Paul wrote "Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary we establish the law" (Romans 3:31).

I've heard one Bible teacher use the analogy of the "law of lift" which is from aerodynamics to explain the spiritual walk ie: We are not under the law so long as we are walking by the spirit. However, if we fall back and allow the flesh to take over once more the law will judge us because "sin transgresses the law -sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) jt
Judy, Judy, Judy! If you have never been under the law, you cannot fall back to it. Study the two laws given us by Jesus. Try to find one moral law that is not more than covered by these two that Jesus gave. Try to find one shred of dress code or dietary requirement or tradition or tithing to priests or animal sacrifice that He requires of His followers. The two commands that I follow are far superior to the law given Moses.The Mosaic law had value, but the teachings of Christ are more valuable. Both had moral requirements. Jesus spells out those requirements more completely than did the law of Moses. Old testament saints were in most cases allowed to hate their enemy. We do not have that luxury. They were allowed to take their brother to court to right a wrong. We are to suffer wrong rather than sue a brother. Can you see from just a couple of examples that though the law of Moses and the law of Christ had many similarities, t
he law of Christ is superior? Can you see that while it offers more freedom concerning diet and dress and giving, it is more demanding as to how we think and how we walk and how we love?Go back and read the last verse in Leviticus again. You will either have to agree that you are not under Mosaic law or that God is a liar. I am sure you will not choose the latter option, and if you do not, then you must choose the first option, that being that you were never under the law.Are you accountable for your moral behavior? The answer is a resounding YES, more so under the teaching of Jesus than any Jew ever was under Moses. I am not saying that not being under the law allows you to be lawless. I am saying that we who are Christians obey out of love for Christ. I am sure that you agree.Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Romans 8:4 is not talking about a righteousness that comes from obeying the Law, whether with the Spirit or otherwise. Rather, it is talking about a righteousness that is atributed to us because of the events of the Inacarnation and the cross. How do I know?

(a) Because this the the very point made in the preceding verse (thatwould be verse 3) AND (b)
Gal 2:21 "if righteousness comes through (or "by") the Law, then Christ died needlessly." -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:48:23 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit






Exactly right. The only way to be under the law is by trying to keep the law w/o Christor by walking in the flesh (Self) instead of in Christ. The moral laws in the OT are the same moral laws of the NT. They never changed. But when we are in Christ we realize that the written OT laws are only the surface, like the difference between reading a Dick and Jane primer in first grade and reading and understanding the Bible as an adult. The fullness of the moral law is when it springs forth from a heart transformed by the Presence of Christ withinthen our actions go so much farther than just the minimal requirements of the OT written law. 

For instance, instead of complying with the OT written law against adultery, which can be obeyed superficially by doing everything up to but not including sexual activity, when we obey the NT unwritten law of Christ we are grieved even by the thought of defrauding another persons mate, or our own. When we married my husband pledged even our eyes to each other; we never look upon another person lustfully. We never entertain lustful thoughts. We never place ourselves in compromising situations, alone with a member of the opposite sex that would have even the appearance of wrongdoing. And we avoid ever putting another person in a situation that might make them appear to do wrong. For instance, whenever my husband has a meeting with a woman at work he keeps his office door wide open. 

The OT and NT laws are simply Gods standards written in such a way as we might understand them. That is why they are good and wonderful and righteous: They express the heart of God. Once we have a new heart in Christ, we have those same desires. Then obeying them is not a work of the flesh, but a natural _expression_ of who we are in Him, and who He is in us. Any time we are not acting out of such natural motivation we are certainly not dwelling in His Spirit, or allowing His Spirit to dwell in us. That is why whenever there is mean name-calling, belittling, animosity, superiority, condescension, sarcasm, spitefulness, etc., on TruthTalk , Christ is being abandoned for Self/Flesh. This is sin. In the OT or the New. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 3:26 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


There never was a 'plan B' with God. It never was: first Law (oops, didn't work)then Grace.This is really rather important as it says something about the sort of God we serve.



- Original Message - 


From: ShieldsFamily 

To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: May 31, 2005 04:37

Subject: [Bulk] RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Terry, I agree with you. I dont know anyone under the law except my Jewish friends. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 3:22 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Terry believes that he is to follow his Savior, die to self, do as He says. Terry does not offer lambs or sleep in tabernacles or eat unleavened bread. Terry does not need a priest. Terry is a priest, the same as any other born again believer. I can eat a lobster without fear of angering God and I can go straight to the Lord with my prayers from any place on this earth on any day of the week. Show me one person under the law that can do that.TerryShieldsFamily wrote: Amen, David. And does Terry believe this? Izzy-Original Message-<
/SPAN>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:27 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Sp
iritGary wrote: 
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this list right now seems to believe this. The key word here is "RELY." I do not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law. I hear her 
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to comply with the righteous requirements of the law. We ought not reject obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. The question is, does Gary,

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


There is the question you are avoiding. do you think God enables us to become gods unto ourselves?
Simple question. I have no desire to debate this -- but I would like to know hwere you statd on the point.

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:54:44 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Surely youconsider yourself to beas smart as you think I am? Iz










Your allegation was that we can only obey God and enter the Kingdom by becoming gods to ourselves. This sentence is something that I do not believe. Are you telling me that you agree with the sentence?? We accomplish nothing but self destruction when we try to become gods unto ourselves. I am hoping that you agree.
If not, its cultsville for you, my dear.  

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


In Jesus Day, it meant the whole Old Law. Probably meant that in Moses day, as well. 

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:04:44 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Please define your understanding of "Mosaical Law". Iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 9:30 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



She IS speaking of the Mosaical Law. Read her posts, sometime. 

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:43:17 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law. She is speaking about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God. You know; like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a problem here? If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:09 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

I understand what you are saying is dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ. Israel are the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

Terry the law still judges us wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says that we will reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a difference between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 







On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

John responds: There can be no argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of the Law awayBlessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered no more." Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have the end of law.

jt: Christ did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl and they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the law.

The curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut 28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 -- but it is sickness unto death until you are destroyed, until you perish quickly .. (v 20). In Christ, He has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb 2), the implication being that death has been destroyed. More than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of death (2:15). Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words: Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall n
 ever see death (Jo 8:51). 

 Since Christ took the curse of the Law away - by following your reasoning sickness should be gone also.Interesting tactic, here, Judy. You bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


In Jesus Day, it meant the whole Old Law. Probably meant that in Moses day, as well. 

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:04:44 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Please define your understanding of "Mosaical Law". Iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 9:30 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



She IS speaking of the Mosaical Law. Read her posts, sometime. 

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:43:17 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law. She is speaking about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God. You know; like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a problem here? If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:09 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

I understand what you are saying is dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ. Israel are the natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

Terry the law still judges us wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says that we will reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a difference between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 







On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

John responds: There can be no argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of the Law awayBlessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered no more." Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have the end of law.

jt: Christ did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl and they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the law.

The curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut 28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 -- but it is sickness unto death until you are destroyed, until you perish quickly .. (v 20). In Christ, He has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb 2), the implication being that death has been destroyed. More than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of death (2:15). Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words: Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall n
 ever see death (Jo 8:51). 

 Since Christ took the curse of the Law away - by following your reasoning sickness should be gone also.Interesting tactic, here, Judy. You bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Sure I did. Beats what your in reply -- ignore, ignore, ignore. The best that I can do in a sccinct way is Romans 8:5. Walking in the Spirit has to do with where your mindis. Walking in the fless -- ditto.

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:07:37 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



All those words, JD, and you still did not answer her questions. Iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 7:36 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




You refer to Romans 8:2. You need to be careful, here, Judy, not to have Paul in Romans contradicting Paul in Galatians. Romans 8:2 is to be considered along with the larger context and (especially) vers 3. If you look to verse three, you will discover that the Law's weakness (our fleshly failure to comply with its charge) is corrected by by the work of the Incarnate Christ in His death (His offering for sin) . 

In 7:25, Paul concludes that his service is divided. He serves God with his mind while his flesh serves the law of sin (and death). The contrast is between his mind and his flesh. Paul "redefines" the idea of "spirit " and "flesh" in Ro 8:5 when he tells us that that those who are in the "flesh" are those who have their minds set on things of the flesh while those "in the Spirit" are those who have their minds set on things of the Spirit. And then he says (v10) this: " And if Christ is in you (if your mind is set on things of the Spirit), though THE BODY IS DEAD Because OF SIN (as judged by the law) yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness (the righteousness of Christ Jesus v 3). 

This Perichoresis you resist, this restorative gospel you reject is really nothing more than the full accounting of the gospel message. At the center of this thinking is Jesus Christ -- in a way that is not the case in any other theology. That is exactly what is so appealing to me as a disciple.

Here you have yet another example of such. The law's "failure" is our flesh. What saves us from the sad conclusion of this, our failure, is not empowerment to suddenly live a perfect life as defined by the Law - but the life and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God.Our bodies remain dead because of sin but our spirit is alive INCHRIST.  

JD

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:15:28 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



JD What is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ?
What is the law of sin and death? 
How do they differ? jt

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit






  
  From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]Judy, Judy, 
  Judy! If you have never been under the law, you cannot fall back to 
  it. 
  
  jt: Never said I was ever under the Levitical Law and 
  am not falling back to anything Terry.
  
  Study the two laws given us by Jesus. Try to find one moral law 
  that is not more than covered by these two that Jesus gave.
  
  jt: I agree that love fulfillsall of the Law 
  and the Prophets; this is not the problem. 
  
  Try to find one shred of dress code or dietary requirement or tradition 
  or tithing to priests or animal sacrifice that He requires of His 
  followers.
  
  jt: The old Leviticalsystem is out and the New 
  Covenant in force - No problem. 
  
  The two commands that I follow are far superior to the law given Moses. 
  The Mosaic law had value, but the teachings of Christ are more valuable. 
  Both had moral requirements. Jesus spells out those requirements more 
  completely than did the law of Moses. 
  
  jt: Actually God has not changed, He was just as holy 
  back when He gave the Law to Moses at Sinai as He is today.
  I don't know that I would call New Covenant teachings 
  more valuable but we do have better promises. However, to
  whom much is given much is required.
  
  Old testament saints were in most cases allowed to hate their 
  enemy. We do not have that luxury. They were allowed to take their 
  brother to court to right a wrong. We are to suffer wrong rather than 
  sue a brother. Can you see from just a couple of examples that though 
  the law of Moses and the law of Christ had many similarities, the law of 
  Christ is superior? 
  
  jt: Yes, I see this and understand the reason 
  for the difference being that on this side of the cross because of 
  the
  power of the Holy Spirit in the lives of individuals 
  we are enabled to love in a way that Old Covenant people were 
not.
  
  Can you see that while it offers more freedom concerning diet and dress 
  and giving, it is more demanding as to how we think and how we walk and how we 
  love?
  
  jt: Yes I do.
  Go back and read the last verse in Leviticus again. You will 
  either have to agree that you are not under Mosaic law or that God is a 
  liar. I am sure you will not choose the latter option, and if you do 
  not, then you must choose the first option, that being that you were never 
  under the law.
  
  jt: I have not been saying that New Covenant 
  believers are UNDER anything but the Royal Law (which is to love) except when 
  they wilfully sin. When that happens the curse is released (which is the 
  curse of the Law) same as
  when David neglected to repent for a year; he 
  describes themisery of his conditionin Psalm 51.Are 
  you accountable for your moral behavior? The answer is a resounding YES, 
  more so under the teaching of Jesus than any Jew ever was under Moses. I 
  am not saying that not being under the law allows you to be lawless. I 
  am saying that we who are Christians obey out of love for Christ. I am 
  sure that you agree. Terry
  
  jt: Of course I agree - but like Izzy I don't see all 
  these divisions. I see God's ppl from Genesis to Revelatkion, yes there 
  are different dispensations but God's standards are basically the same because 
  he does not change. jt
  

  Judy Taylor wrote: 
  Terry have you ever done a study of the 
teachings of your Savior? If so, I am sure you found that they are all 
rooted in the Old Testament God's statutes, 
testimonies, and commandments have not changed because He has not changed 
(Mal 3:6). Paul wrote "Do we then nullify the law through faith? May 
it never be! On the contrary we establish the law" (Romans 
3:31).

I've heard one Bible teacher use the analogy of the 
"law of lift" which is from aerodynamics to explain the spiritual walk ie: 
We are not under the law so long as we are walking by the spirit. 
However, if we fall back and allow the flesh to take over once more the law 
will judge us because "sin transgresses the law -sin is the 
transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) jt
Judy, Judy, Judy! If you have never been 
  under the law, you cannot fall back to it. Study the two laws given us 
  by Jesus. Try to find one moral law that is not more than covered by 
  these two that Jesus gave. Try to find one shred of dress code or 
  dietary requirement or tradition or tithing to priests or animal sacrifice 
  that He requires of His followers. The two commands that I follow are 
  far superior to the law given Moses.The Mosaic law had value, but the 
  teachings of Christ are more valuable. Both had moral 
  requirements. Jesus spells out those requirements more completely than 
  did the law of Moses. Old testament saints were in most cases allowed to 
  hate their enemy. We do not have that luxury. They were allowed to 
  take their brother to court to right a wrong. We are to suffer wrong 
  rather than sue a brother. Can

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit






On Tue, 31 May 2005 16:42:15 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  Romans 8:4 is not talking about a righteousness that comes from obeying 
  the Law, whether with the Spirit or otherwise. Rather, it is talking 
  about a righteousness that is atributed to us because of 
  the events of the Inacarnation and the cross.
  
  RED FLAG!! Romans 8:4-8 says nothing about any 
  "incarnation" it reads: "That the righteousness of the law 
  might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the 
  flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the 
  things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the 
  Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be 
  spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity 
  against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 
  So then they that are in the flesh can not please God"
  
  How do I know?
  (a) Because this the the very point made in the preceding 
  verse (thatwould be verse 3)
  
  jt: Verse 3 says that by sending His Son in the 
  likeness of flesh, condemned sin in the flesh; it says nothing 
  about
  any incarnation.
  
  AND (b)Gal 2:21 "if righteousness comes 
  through (or "by") the Law, then Christ died needlessly." 
  
  jt: Noone has said thus far that righteousness comes 
  through the Law; what I have been saying is that Lawlessness
  will incur the curse even though Christ became a 
  curse for us - and that "sin is the transgression of the Law"
  
  
  From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  

  
  

  
  Exactly right. 
  The only way to be under the law is by trying to keep the law w/o Christor 
  by walking in the flesh (Self) instead of in Christ. The moral laws in 
  the OT are the same moral laws of the NT. They never changed. But 
  when we are in Christ we realize that the written OT laws are only the 
  surface, like the difference between reading a Dick and Jane primer in first 
  grade and reading and understanding the Bible as an adult. The fullness 
  of the moral law is when it springs forth from a heart transformed by the 
  Presence of Christ withinthen our actions go so much farther than just the 
  minimal requirements of the OT written law. 
  
  
  For instance, instead 
  of complying with the OT written law against adultery, which can be obeyed 
  superficially by doing everything up to but not including sexual activity, 
  when we obey the NT unwritten law of Christ we are grieved even by the thought 
  of defrauding another persons mate, or our own. When we married my 
  husband pledged even our eyes to each other; we never look upon another person 
  lustfully. We never entertain lustful thoughts. We never place 
  ourselves in compromising situations, alone with a member of the opposite sex 
  that would have even the appearance of wrongdoing. And we avoid ever 
  putting another person in a situation that might make them appear to do 
  wrong. For instance, whenever my husband has a meeting with a woman at 
  work he keeps his office door wide open. 
  
  The OT and NT laws 
  are simply Gods standards written in such a way as we might understand 
  them. That is why they are good and wonderful and righteous: They 
  express the heart of God. Once we have a new heart in Christ, we have 
  those same desires. Then obeying them is not a work of the flesh, but a 
  natural _expression_ of who we are in Him, and who He is in us. Any time 
  we are not acting out of such natural motivation we are certainly not dwelling 
  in His Spirit, or allowing His Spirit to dwell in us. That is why 
  whenever there is mean name-calling, belittling, animosity, superiority, 
  condescension, sarcasm, spitefulness, etc., on TruthTalk , Christ is being 
  abandoned for Self/Flesh. This is sin. In the OT or the New. 
  Izzy
  
  
  
  
  
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  On Behalf Of Lance 
  Muir
  
  There never was 
  a 'plan B' with God. It never was: first Law (oops, didn't work)then 
  Grace.This is really rather important as it says something about the sort of 
  God we serve.
  
  
  
  
  

ShieldsFamily 




Terry, I agree with 
you. I dont know anyone under the law except my Jewish friends. 
Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry 
CliftonTerry believes that he is to follow his 
Savior, die to self, do as He says. Terry does not offer lambs or 
sleep in tabernacles or eat unleavened bread. Terry does not need a 
priest. Terry is a priest, the same as any other born again 
believer. I can eat a lobster without fear of angering God and I can 
go straight to the Lord with my prayers from any place on this earth on any 
day of the week. Show me one person under the law that can do 
that. TerryShieldsFamily wrote: 
Amen, David. And does Terry believe this? IzzyGary wrote:

[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

JD do you believe it possible to walk after the Spirit
with the mind stayed on Monty Python and Bob Dylan?
Just wondering how well you understand the concept and
if you have the mind of Christ . jt

On Tue, 31 May 2005 16:55:20 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Sure I did. Beats what your in reply -- ignore, ignore,
ignore. The best that I can do in a sccinct way is Romans
8:5. Walking in the Spirit has to do with where your
mindis. Walking in the fless -- ditto.

JDFrom:
ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]com

All those words, JD, and you still did not answer her questions. Iz

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

You refer to Romans 8:2. You need to be careful, here, Judy,
not to have Paul in Romans contradicting Paul in Galatians. Romans 8:2
is to be considered along with the larger context and (especially) vers
3. If you look to verse three, you will discover that the Law's
weakness (our fleshly failure to comply with its charge) is corrected by by
the work of the Incarnate Christ in His death (His offering for sin)
.

In 7:25, Paul concludes that his service is divided. He serves God
with his mind while his flesh serves the law of sin (and death).
The contrast is between his mind and his flesh. Paul "redefines"
the idea of "spirit " and "flesh" in Ro 8:5 when he tells us that that those
who are in the "flesh" are those who have their minds set on things of the
flesh while those "in the Spirit" are those who have their minds set on things
of the Spirit. And then he says (v10) this: " And if Christ is in you (if your mind is set on
things of the Spirit), though THE BODY IS DEAD Because OF SIN (as judged by the law) yet the spirit is alive
because of righteousness (the righteousness of Christ Jesus v 3).

This Perichoresis you resist, this
restorative gospel you reject is really nothing more than the full accounting
of the gospel message. At the center of this thinking is Jesus Christ -- in a way
that is not the case in any other theology. That is exactly what is so appealing to me
as a disciple.

Here you have yet another example of such. The law's
"failure" is our flesh. What saves us from the sad conclusion of this,
our failure, is not empowerment to
suddenly live a perfect life as defined by the Law - but the life
and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God.Our bodies remain
dead because of sin but our spirit is alive INCHRIST.

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31
May 2005 08:15:28 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and
the Spirit

JD What is the law of the Spirit of Life in
Christ?
What is the law of sin and death?
How do they differ? jt

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit









NO! duh. 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:48
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and
John on the Law and the Spirit











There is the question you are avoiding. do you think
God enables us to become gods unto ourselves?





Simple question. I have no desire to debate
this -- but I would like to know hwere you statd on the point.











JD




-Original Message-
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:54:44 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



Surely youconsider yourself to
beas smart as you think I am? Iz


























Your allegation was that we can only
obey God and enter the Kingdom by becoming gods to ourselves. This sentence is something that I do not believe. Are
you telling me that you agree with the sentence?? We accomplish nothing
but self destruction when we try to become gods unto ourselves. I
am hoping that you agree.





If not, its cultsville
for you, my dear.  











JD

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit









Doesnt mean you are exempt from obeying
it. Righteousness comes from the indwelling Presence, which has a by-product
in our lives of obedience to ALL that God willsspringing from the inner (new)
heart. Izzy











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:42
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and
John on the Law and the Spirit











Romans 8:4 is not talking about a righteousness that comes
from obeying the Law, whether with the Spirit or otherwise. Rather, it is
talking about a righteousness that is atributed to us because of the events of
the Inacarnation and the cross. How do I know?











(a) Because this the the very point made in the
preceding verse (thatwould be verse 3) AND
(b)





Gal 2:21 if righteousness comes
through (or by) the Law, then Christ died needlessly. 




-Original Message-
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:48:23 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





Exactly right. The only way to be
under the law is by trying to keep the law w/o Christor by walking in the
flesh (Self) instead of in Christ. The moral laws in the OT are the same
moral laws of the NT. They never changed. But when we are in Christ
we realize that the written OT laws are only the surface, like the difference
between reading a Dick and Jane primer in first grade and reading and
understanding the Bible as an adult. The fullness of the moral law is
when it springs forth from a heart transformed by the Presence of Christ
withinthen our actions go so much farther than just the minimal requirements
of the OT written law. 











For instance, instead of complying with
the OT written law against adultery, which can be obeyed superficially by doing
everything up to but not including sexual activity, when we obey the NT
unwritten law of Christ we are grieved even by the thought of defrauding
another persons mate, or our own. When we married my husband pledged
even our eyes to each other; we never look upon another person lustfully.
We never entertain lustful thoughts. We never place ourselves in
compromising situations, alone with a member of the opposite sex that would
have even the appearance of wrongdoing. And we avoid ever putting another
person in a situation that might make them appear to do wrong. For
instance, whenever my husband has a meeting with a woman at work he keeps his
office door wide open. 











The OT and NT laws are simply Gods
standards written in such a way as we might understand them. That is why
they are good and wonderful and righteous: They express the heart of God.
Once we have a new heart in Christ, we have those same desires. Then
obeying them is not a work of the flesh, but a natural _expression_ of who we are
in Him, and who He is in us. Any time we are not acting out of such
natural motivation we are certainly not dwelling in His Spirit, or allowing His
Spirit to dwell in us. That is why whenever there is mean name-calling,
belittling, animosity, superiority, condescension, sarcasm, spitefulness, etc.,
on TruthTalk , Christ is being abandoned for Self/Flesh. This is
sin. In the OT or the New. Izzy



















From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 3:26
AM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [Bulk] RE:
[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit















There never was a 'plan B' with God. It never was: first Law
(oops, didn't work)then Grace.This is really rather important as it says
something about the sort of God we serve.



















- Original Message - 











From: ShieldsFamily 









To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 









Sent: May 31, 2005 04:37









Subject: [Bulk] RE:
[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

















Terry, I agree with you. I dont
know anyone under the law except my Jewish friends. Izzy



















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Terry Clifton
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 3:22 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and
John on the Law and the Spirit













Terry believes that he is to follow his
Savior, die to self, do as He says. Terry does not offer lambs or sleep
in tabernacles or eat unleavened bread. Terry does not need a
priest. Terry is a priest, the same as any other born again
believer. I can eat a lobster without fear of angering God and I can go
straight to the Lord with my prayers from any place on this earth on any day of
the week. Show me one person under the law that can do that.
Terry

ShieldsFamily wrote: 



Amen,
David. And does Terry believe this? Izzy



-Original
Message-

/SPAN

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of David Miller

Sent: Monday,
May 30, 2005 1:27 PM

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Who in theworld is arguing against obedience ?? We are, in deed, asked to obey --- but we must know, at the same time, that righteousness doesnot come from the law but from the sacrifice of Christ and all that He did in the flesh (called Incarnation). His death on the cross was that which forgave sins, and not just sins, but sins of all time for He died "once and for all time." Hebrews 10:18 tells that "where there is forgiveness, there is no longer need of a sacrifice." If our sins are forgiven, in a very real sense of the word, we are without sins. The New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31:34 parallels this Hebrews passage by saying "and I will remember their sins and iniquities NO MORE." wE ARE RIGHTEOUS because we are declared to righteous and not for any other re
ason. 

So, what of obedience? It is "required" but not to make us righteous because if righteousness could come by law, then Christ died in vain (Gal 2:21.) Please note that in the gk text, it does NOT say "if righteousness were through THE Law...' Nope. What it says is this: "if righteousness were through (any) law  [no definite article]"

So I believe in obedience. I am an obedient servant. This "immersion" thing - have any idea what that is about? It is me obsessing about the Christ.That includes an extreme obedient life style  but it is an obedience that comes from a relationship with Christ rather than from a written Law. 

JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:14:19 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit






Doesnt mean you are exempt from obeying it. Righteousness comes from the indwelling Presence, which has a by-product in our lives of obedience to ALL that God willsspringing from the inner (new) heart. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:42 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




Romans 8:4 is not talking about a righteousness that comes from obeying the Law, whether with the Spirit or otherwise. Rather, it is talking about a righteousness that is atributed to us because of the events of the Inacarnation and the cross. How do I know?



(a) Because this the the very point made in the preceding verse (thatwould be verse 3) AND (b)

Gal 2:21 "if righteousness comes through (or "by") the Law, then Christ died needlessly." 
-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:48:23 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Exactly right. The only way to be under the law is by trying to keep the law w/o Christor by walking in the flesh (Self) instead of in Christ. The moral laws in the OT are the same moral laws of the NT. They never changed. But when we are in Christ we realize that the written OT laws are only the surface, like the difference between reading a Dick and Jane primer in first grade and reading and understanding the Bible as an adult. The fullness of the moral law is when it springs forth from a heart transformed by the Presence of Christ withinthen our actions go so much farther than just the minimal requirements of the OT written law. 



For instance, instead of complying with the OT written law against adultery, which can be obeyed superficially by doing everything up to but not including sexual activity, when we obey the NT unwritten law of Christ we are grieved even by the thought of defrauding another persons mate, or our own. When we married my husband pledged even our eyes to each other; we never look upon another person lustfully. We never entertain lustful thoughts. We never place ourselves in compromising situations, alone with a member of the opposite sex that would have even the appearance of wrongdoing. And we avoid ever putting another person in a situation that might make them appear to do wrong. For instance, whenever my husband has a meeting with a woman at work he keeps his office door wide open. <
/DIV>



The OT and NT laws are simply Gods standards written in such a way as we might understand them. That is why they are good and wonderful and righteous: They express the heart of God. Once we have a new heart in Christ, we have those same desires. Then obeying them is not a work of the flesh, but a natural _expression_ of who we are in Him, and who He is in us. Any time we are not acting out of such natural motivation we are certainly not dwelling in His Spirit, or allowing His Spirit to dwell in us. That is why whenever there is mean name-calling, belittling, animosity, superiority, condescension, sarcasm, spitefulness, etc., on TruthTalk , Christ is being abandoned for Self/Flesh. This is sin. In the OT or the New. Izzy








From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


cool !!-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:14:40 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit






NO! duh. 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 2:48 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




There is the question you are avoiding. do you think God enables us to become gods unto ourselves?

Simple question. I have no desire to debate this -- but I would like to know hwere you statd on the point.



JD
-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:54:44 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Surely youconsider yourself to beas smart as you think I am? Iz











Your allegation was that we can only obey God and enter the Kingdom by becoming gods to ourselves. This sentence is something that I do not believe. Are you telling me that you agree with the sentence?? We accomplish nothing but self destruction when we try to become gods unto ourselves. I am hoping that you agree.

If not, its cultsville for you, my dear.  



JD

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

If I respond, Canada may very well secede from the Union !! And we wouldn't want tofunctionwithout the Good Bishop from the North (He is the one who has the full set of teeth).

Jd-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 09:36:36 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

jdmust have had another attack of TYPOglycemia, It has now progressed to MEMORYglycemia!
John wrote: The fact of the matter is this: you can never presenta post in which you copied my words. That is the fact of the matter. That is not the fact of the matter, that is the lie of the matter. I brought up a post dated May 26 in which I copied your words exactly as you wrote them. Your response to my taking time to produce that post was: "I have already ended this discussion, David. Check precious post." Copied below is that post where you failed to consider the evidence. David. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Ad hominem arguments -Original Message- From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org<
BR> Sent: Sun, 29 May 2005 02:03:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Ad hominem arguments David Miller wrote: I quoted you exactly as you wrote it John wrote: The very next sentence is EXACTLY what I said. John wrote: I wrote: Knowing you are right in some esoteric way is a fantasy of the first order. David Miller wrote: That is exactly how I quoted you John. Go back and look at the post. John wrote: You go back. I already did and the result is the very next sentence. John wrote: You wrote: "You claim we can't know anything" This last sentence is not my quote of you. It is my communication to youof what I understood you to be saying. It is new content. I precede quotes with "" symbols. You asked me to go back and look at the post to seetha
t I did not quote you correctly. Well, I did go back and look, thinkingmaybe I had a problem with my memory and owed you an apology, but instead Ifound that you were wrong. I did quote you correctly. Look closely at thesecond paragraph in the quote below. However, I do not want to continue this discussion. We have a new moderator now and we need to get back on the right foot of discussing interesting subjects, not playing word games ofyou said / he said / she said. If you have anything more to say on thisthread (like maybe an apology to me!), please take it private so we don't borethe rest of the list. I'm not holding my breath because I don't remember you ever admitting to being wrong. I have already ended this discussion,David. Check precious post. - - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><
BR> To: Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 9:11 AM Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Fond Farewells- Salvation David Miller wrote: I would think from comments you have made that your position would be that there is a little bit of doubt in all of us. Am I mistaken about that? John wrote: Yes ... Knowing you are right in some esoteric way is a fantasy of the first order. David Miller wrote: You claim that this teaching of Christ does not include us. From my perspective, this emanates from doubt and unbelief. John wrote: S, if one disagrees with you, the problem is always one of doubt and disbelief? If I am speaking truth, yes, but the real point is that when somebody disagrees with Christ, the reason is doubt and unbelief. John wrote: When you disagree with me, David, it is because you are wrong !! That'what I think. How can I be wrong if knowing you are right is a fantasy? You are filled with contradictions here that make further conversation impossible without first resolving the issue of whether or not we can know anything. When I say that your perspective seems to be that there is a little doubt and unbelief in all of us, you disagree. Yet, you then turn around and claim that knowing we are right about something is a fantasy. You can't have it both ways. We obviously have a huge disconnect here in regards to our terms of knowledge, knowing, doubt, and unbelief. You must be working from some other definitions of these words or you are a completely irrational person. John wrote: It never has crossed my mind that you were one of doubt and disbeleif. Well, you
should be thinking of me that way, because I have quite a bit of doubt and unbelief. If I did not, I would be walking on water and doing many of the other things that Jesus said those who believed upon him would do (John 14:12). John wrote: Guaranteed I am not. And you think I am arrogant and you are not? This is one of the most arrogant statements I have ever heard on TruthTalk. If you know any way to explain what doubt and

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


To quote Izzy:with God, all things are posible. -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 17:20:06 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



JD do you believe it possible to walk after the Spirit with the mind stayed on Monty Python and Bob Dylan?
Just wondering how well you understand the concept and if you have the mind of Christ . jt

On Tue, 31 May 2005 16:55:20 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Sure I did. Beats what your in reply -- ignore, ignore, ignore. The best that I can do in a sccinct way is Romans 8:5. Walking in the Spirit has to do with where your mindis. Walking in the fless -- ditto.

JDFrom: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]com



All those words, JD, and you still did not answer her questions. Iz


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]




You refer to Romans 8:2. You need to be careful, here, Judy, not to have Paul in Romans contradicting Paul in Galatians. Romans 8:2 is to be considered along with the larger context and (especially) vers 3. If you look to verse three, you will discover that the Law's weakness (our fleshly failure to comply with its charge) is corrected by by the work of the Incarnate Christ in His death (His offering for sin) . 

In 7:25, Paul concludes that his service is divided. He serves God with his mind while his flesh serves the law of sin (and death). The contrast is between his mind and his flesh. Paul "redefines" the idea of "spirit " and "flesh" in Ro 8:5 when he tells us that that those who are in the "flesh" are those who have their minds set on things of the flesh while those "in the Spirit" are those who have their minds set on things of the Spirit. And then he says (v10) this: " And if Christ is in you (if your mind is set on things of the Spirit), though THE BODY IS DEAD Because OF SIN (as judged by the law) yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness (the righteousness of Christ Jesus v 3). 

This Perichoresis you resist, this restorative gospel you reject is really nothing more than the full accounting of the gospel message. At the center of this thinking is Jesus Christ -- in a way that is not the case in any other theology. That is exactly what is so appealing to me as a disciple.

Here you have yet another example of such. The law's "failure" is our flesh. What saves us from the sad conclusion of this, our failure, is not empowerment to suddenly live a perfect life as defined by the Law - but the life and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God.Our bodies remain dead because of sin but our spirit is alive INCHRIST.  

JD

-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgCc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]innglory.orgSent: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:15:28 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit



JD What is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ?
What is the law of sin and death? 
How do they differ? jt

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




The world of philosophical religion belongs to you and 
Bob Dylan Gary because you are both full of your own
thoughts rather than Gods and you do not rightly divide 
the Word of Truth. Gal 3:10 emphasizes what is written 
in Deut 27:26 "Cursed is he 
who does not confirm the words of this law by doing them and all the ppl shall 
say Amen" also Jer 11:3 "Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this 
covenant"

Under the New Covenant we see:
Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just 
before God but the doers of the law shall be 
justified"
Oophs! I thought the law had been done away with 
.. Is Paul confused or something? He may need your counsel.
Also James 1:22 "But be ye doers of 
the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be 
a
hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like unto a 
man beholding his natural face in a glass, for he beholdeth 
himself and goeth his way and straightway forgetteth 
what manner of man he was"

NEWSFLASH!!
The forgetful hearer is not blessed either - he 
iscursed

On Sun, 29 May 2005 23:44:41 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  jt: Christ did not become a curse for those who 
  keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl 
  and they are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the 
  law.
  
  
  contrary to philosophical religion, Scripture both 
  establishes and underscores the followingpoint:
  
  Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a 
  curse,
  
  which reflects, 
  e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, 
  above:
  
  ..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of God,..bind 
  themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given through Moses 
  ..
  
  counter to the 
  notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross of 
  Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are 
  sinning
  
  keep in mind 
  that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he 
   Godare legalists..

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




Gary:Is your life so structured as to permit 
listening (audio lectures) as well as reading? 

Lance

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 01:44
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and 
  John on the Law and the Spirit
  
  
  On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:48:58 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  

jt: Christ did 
not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The 
curse is still all over those ppl and they
are wearing 
it. Sickness is the curse of the 
  law.
  
  
  contrary to 
  philosophical religion, Scripture both establishes and underscores the 
  followingpoint:
  
  Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a 
  curse,
  
  which reflects, 
  e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, 
  above:
  
  ..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of God,..bind 
  themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given through Moses 
  ..
  
  counter to the 
  notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross of 
  Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are 
  sinning
  
  keep in mind 
  that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he 
   Godare 
legalists..

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Lance wrote:
 Please read my post one more time. Tell me what
 it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking
 of you.

Be careful in telling Lance what you believe he is saying to you, Judy.  We 
all saw how John interpreted such action on my part as misquoting him or 
misrepresenting him, setting up for more acrimony and striving over vain 
words.  I can only hope Lance would not do such things, though he does seem 
to side squarely with John in this weird theology they have about the 
Incarnation that makes the Law of God something cursed and evil.  Wow, even 
Gary argued that God is a sinner based upon this reasoning, and he placed 
everyone under the curse of the law REGARDLESS OF THE CROSS OF CHRIST! 
Truly incredible.  You have done a very good job in making your case with 
John, causing John and Gary to articulate their beliefs in such a way that 
the absurdity of it becomes very apparent.  You have exposed the depravity 
of this theology to which they cling in a most clear way.  I have found your 
writings most inspiring and well reasoned.  You defend the gospel and faith 
in Christ very well.  As a result of your writing, the grace of Christ is 
magnified, and we see the beauty and awesome work of the cross to transform 
us without works of the law into the very image of Christ to which the law 
points us all.  Well done, faithful servant of the Most High!

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Dismount your white horse, David. You are quite right in complimenting
Judy's capability. She is up to the task of defending her/your 'gospel'  She
is certainly up to 'Tonto(ing)' your Lone Ranger performance.

- Original Message - 
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: May 30, 2005 08:28
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the
Spirit

 Lance wrote:
  Please read my post one more time. Tell me what
  it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking
  of you.

 Be careful in telling Lance what you believe he is saying to you, Judy.
We
 all saw how John interpreted such action on my part as misquoting him or
 misrepresenting him, setting up for more acrimony and striving over vain
 words.  I can only hope Lance would not do such things, though he does
seem
 to side squarely with John in this weird theology they have about the
 Incarnation that makes the Law of God something cursed and evil.  Wow,
even
 Gary argued that God is a sinner based upon this reasoning, and he placed
 everyone under the curse of the law REGARDLESS OF THE CROSS OF CHRIST!
 Truly incredible.  You have done a very good job in making your case with
 John, causing John and Gary to articulate their beliefs in such a way that
 the absurdity of it becomes very apparent.  You have exposed the depravity
 of this theology to which they cling in a most clear way.  I have found
your
 writings most inspiring and well reasoned.  You defend the gospel and
faith
 in Christ very well.  As a result of your writing, the grace of Christ is
 magnified, and we see the beauty and awesome work of the cross to
transform
 us without works of the law into the very image of Christ to which the law
 points us all.  Well done, faithful servant of the Most High!

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller.

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread ShieldsFamily









The
curse comes from trying to obey the law apart from the indwelling empowerment
of the Holy Spirittrying to do it in the flesh is failure. Failure to obey Gods
wonderful laws/commandments brings the natural consequences of sin and death. (see
Deut. for the curses of disobedience vs the blessings of obedience). Iz



Jn 14:15
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 11:45
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and
John on the Law and the Spirit









On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:48:58 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:









jt: Christ did not become a curse for
those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over
those ppl and they







are wearing it. Sickness is the
curse of the law.



















contrary to
philosophical religion, Scripture both establishes and underscores the
followingpoint:











Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are
under a curse,











which reflects,
e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, above:











..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of
God,..bind themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given through
Moses ..











counter to the
notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross of
Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are sinning











keep in mind
that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he
 Godare legalists..

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread Terry Clifton





ShieldsFamily wrote:

  
  

  
  
  
  
   If you are
a true Believer and dont
obey the Law you will still go to heavenjust sooner. Izzy
  

  

If this is true, would it not be better to disobey?

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread Terry Clifton

I disagree, but only because you are wrong.
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying is
dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has
always
been Christ. Israel are the natural
branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are
God's
ppl in every generation and basically
Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his teachings you
will find
they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says
that we will
reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is
a difference between God's moral law and
the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can
fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and
I wrestle with periodically. The gospel
he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and
does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has
ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.
Terry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing
wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah
and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

John responds: There can be no
argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of
the Law away
Blessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered no more."
Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any
offering for sin -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have
the end of law.

jt: Christ did not become a curse
for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over
those ppl and they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the
law.

The
curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut
28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 --
but it is sickness unto death until
you are destroyed, until you perish quickly .. (v 20). In
Christ, He has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb
2), the implication being that death has been destroyed. More
than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered
powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be
delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of death (2:15).
Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words:
Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall never see
death (Jo 8:51).

Since Christ took the curse of the
Law away - by following your reasoning sickness should be gone also.Interesting tactic, here, Judy. You
bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the discussion !!!
By following your (me) reasoning --
ss so
far off base with anything I believe or have said as to be genuinely
funny. I do not believe the curse of the Law is
sickness; it is death or the fear of death.

It's not so something is amiss.
The Law has not gone anywhere JD. It is fulfilled in Christ. We must
now allow it to be fulfilled in us also if we are to be found "in Him"
Where
in scripture do I find this requirement that I must fulfill the Law
as Christ did. Your doctrine of works is a failures
doctrine - offering no hope and placing
one back under bondage.

The contrast is law verses
Spirit.If righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain,
David. Therefore, the faith of Christ is presented in the place of
righteousness (or the lack there of). The very purpose of the Law
sealed its fate -- for through the Law I died to the Law that I might
live to God. More than a contrast between law and Spirit, the
biblical text speaks of faith verses Law .. the incumbent rewards of
abiding in the Law is not a demonstration of faith - rather, such
rewards are the result of indebtedness.

jt: God Himself does not pit faith against His
Law; this is done by doctrines of men.
It is
God through Paul who makes the contrast: Where then
is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind
of law? Of works (the Old Law) No, but by a law of
faith.
I,
personally, think it too strong to state that the Law is pit

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread ttxpress




perhaps..it's good 
that you ask..it grants one the opportunity tothink/respond wisely..like 
i'm enjoying more iTunes these days--less Looney--can click a couple of iTunes 
buttons and listen to songs non-stop...if you wanna know, i tossed the tv 
recently,kept a cassette tape player, though...how about you--do you 
retain a tv? one thing imiss about the tv is to be able to hook up the vcr 
for running tapes like the 'Turtle' on batting--Turtle's an NCAA (5 div) 
championship bb coach, at LSU,who does hitting instruction---good stuff..a 
lecture and i enjoyed it:)

On Mon, 30 May 2005 04:39:36 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Gary:Is your life so structured as to permit 
  listening (audio lectures) as well as reading? 
  
  Lance
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

Sent: May 30, 2005 01:44
Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy 
and John on the Law and the Spirit


On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:48:58 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  
  jt: Christ did 
  not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. 
  The curse is still all over those ppl and 
  they
  are wearing 
  it. Sickness is the curse of the 
  law.


contrary to 
philosophical religion, Scripture both establishes and underscores the 
followingpoint:

Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a 
curse,

which reflects, 
e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, 
above:

..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of 
God,..bind themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given through 
Moses ..

counter to the 
notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross of 
Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are 
sinning

keep in mind 
that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he 
 Godare legalists..

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

No mention of a cd player? 

- Original Message - 

  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

  Sent: May 30, 2005 09:25
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: 
  [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

  perhaps..it's 
  good that you ask..it grants one the opportunity tothink/respond 
  wisely..like i'm enjoying more iTunes these days--less Looney--can click a 
  couple of iTunes buttons and listen to songs non-stop...if you wanna know, i 
  tossed the tv recently,kept a cassette tape player, though...how about 
  you--do you retain a tv? one thing imiss about the tv is to be able to 
  hook up the vcr for running tapes like the 'Turtle' on batting--Turtle's an 
  NCAA (5 div) championship bb coach, at LSU,who does hitting 
  instruction---good stuff..a lecture and i enjoyed it:)

  On Mon, 30 May 2005 04:39:36 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

Gary:Is your life so structured as to permit 
listening (audio lectures) as well as reading? 

Lance

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

  Sent: May 30, 2005 01:44
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy 
  and John on the Law and the Spirit

  On Sun, 29 May 2005 20:48:58 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:

jt: Christ 
did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully 
sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl and 
they
are wearing 
it. Sickness is the curse of the 
law.

  contrary to 
  philosophical religion, Scripture both establishes and underscores the 
  followingpoint:

  Gal 3:10 All who rely on observing the law are under a 
  curse,

  which 
  reflects, e.g.,Neh 10--in essence, as the Ap Paul reiterated, 
  above:

  ..all who[devote] themselves ..[to].. the Law of 
  God,..bind themselves with a curse.. to follow the Law of God given 
  through Moses ..

  counter to 
  the notion jt posted,while the 'curse', regardless of thecross 
  of Christ, fallson all legalists, then all legalists are 
  sinning

  keep in mind 
  that, acc to DavidMs religiousdualism, similar to jt's,both he 
   Godare legalists..

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread ttxpress




the boys can hook 
one up here

On Mon, 30 May 2005 09:55:02 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  No mention of a cd player? 
  
  ||

Re: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

IMO it would.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 

  Sent: May 30, 2005 08:57
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and 
  John on the Law and the Spirit
  ShieldsFamily wrote: 

 If you are a 
true Believer and dont obey the Law you will still go to heavenjust 
sooner. Izzy
If 
  this is true, would it not be better to disobey?

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread Charles Perry Locke


John, I consider the following a veiled ad hominem reference:

...someone who either does not comprehend at a high level (say , similar to 
a dolphin)


Giving a second option (not reading posts), which may or may not be true, 
does not negate or cover the ad hominem part.


Perry


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:43:25 -0400

Here is the perfect example of someone who either does not comprehend at a 
high level (say , similar to a dolphin)   ---  and Linda IS smarter than 
that  OR we have someone who simply does not read the posts she responds 
to.  We have Izzy arguing that God will help us become gods unto our 
selves.  Maybe the Mormon brothers will agree  --  but most of the rest of 
us are left scratching our heads  


Also, here is a great example for the need of interpretative rules.  Does 
God inable us to sin?  He makes ALL THINGS  possible.  Does He enable us to 
steal and murder?   He makes ALL THINGS possible.  But , hhh, wait 
a minute !!  The text says ALL THINGS.   cARS AND BOATS AND, A $500 
LUNKER STICK,  a library full of really good porn  -  all things. 
  If God says it, I beleive  (?)


Think  Hermeneutic.

JD

Gots to go to work.

-Original Message-
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:43:40 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit


Then you are arguing with Jesus.




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2005 9:36 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

No, no they are not.
JD

-Original Message-
From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:15:06 -0500
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
Luke 10:27 “all things are possible with God.




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]

When we become gods unto ourselves, wwe attempt the impossible  --



--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I
wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor
wrote:

I understand what you are saying is dispensational
teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has always been Christ. Israel are the natural branches and we have
been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's ppl are God's ppl in every generation and basically Jesus is the Word of
God. If you look closely at his teachings you will find they reflect the Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us wheneverwe
break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says that we will
reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is a
difference between God's moral law and the
Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former
still stands and has not gone anywhere.
We can fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon
our old flesh naturedead. This is
the problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional
acceptance to everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has ever
been under the law, unless you were a Jewish
proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:You
are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing wrong
with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the
Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your
sins.

John responds: There can be no argument that
God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of the Law
awayBlessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered
no more." Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is
no longer any offering for sin -- He 10:18. In the
fulfillment of the Law, we have the end of
law.

jt:
Christ did not become a curse for those who keep on wilfully
sinningJD. The curse is still all over those ppl and
they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse
of the law.

The curse of the
Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut
28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in
Deut 28 -- but it is sickness
unto death “…until you are destroyed, until
you perish quickly …..” (v 20).
In Christ, “He
has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb 2), the
implication being that death has been destroyed.
More than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death,
has been rendered powerless by the cross ; (Heb
2:14) so that we might be delivered from slavery as a result of the
“fear of death” (2:15).
Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these words:
“Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall never see
death” (Jo 8:51).

Since Christ took the curse of the Law away - by following your
reasoning sickness should be gone also.Interesting tactic, here, Judy.
You bind your conclusions into MY theology and continue the
discussion !!! “By following your (me)
reasoning
--“
ss so
far off base with anything I believe or have said as to be genuinely
funny. I do not believe the curse of the Law is
sickness; it is death or the fear of death.

It's not so something is
amiss. The Law has not gone anywhere JD. It is fulfilled in
Christ. We must now allow it to be fulfilled in us also if we are to
be found "in Him"
Where
in scripture do I find this requirement – that I must fulfill the
Law as Christ did. Your doctrine of works
is a failure’s

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread ttxpress




but (e.g.) Flipper 
never seemed to take this stuff too seriously

On Mon, 30 May 2005 07:59:40 -0700 "Charles Perry 
Locke" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:.. a veiled ad hominem reference:  
"...someone who either does not comprehend at a high level (say ,  
similar toa dolphin)"||

Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit





Advice heeded DavidM and I doappreciate the 
encouraging words.
Thank You. jt


On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:28:28 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
Lance wrote:  Please read my post one more time. Tell me 
what  it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking 
 of you.  Be careful in telling Lance what you believe he is 
saying to you,  Judy. We

[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




I understand you to be asking me what I believe about 
the incarnation Lance - if I am setting 'the cross over against the incarnation' 
and if Paul preached the cross over against the incarnation.

If the incarnation is left in it's proper setting then 
I don't see any reason to come against it. However, when it is taken from it's 
rightful place and made into something God never intended then I would answer 
yes to the above.

1. I agree that God supplied a body for His only 
begotten son through a virgin by the name of Mary and that this is a fact 
historically.

2. I disagree with the "doctrine" of the incarnation 
because so far as I can see it does not deal with God's judgment against sin and 
it does nothing to lead God's ppl into righteousness and holiness

On Mon, 30 May 2005 06:43:06 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  Jt:Please read my post one more time. Tell me 
  what it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking of 
  you.thanks for this,
  Lance
  
From: Judy Taylor 

Yes I am saying that the apostle Paul preached the 
cross - I see it in his writings. As for this Perichoresis
and Icarnation it would be better if you tell us 
what their significance is since you ar the expert. I'm not so
sure it is basically different from 
universalism. jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 05:38:50 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Jt:Do I understand you to be setting 'the cross' over AGAINST 'the incarnation'? 
  
  Do I understand you to be saying that it was 'the cross' that Paul preached over AGAINST 'the 
  incarnation'?
  What is it that you understand regarding the 
  so-called 'incarnational gospel'? With what do you 1. agree 2 
  disagree?
  
From: Judy 
Taylor 

On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:18:08 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer to both 
questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the works 
(obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I will give you 
Paul for the sake of argument -- How did Paul provide you 
with the Spirit and the working of miracles -- through the 
works of the Law or by the hearing with faith. My point is the 
same. jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the 
miracles but He works through men. 

JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my point. 
The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because of faith, not 
law. Can you understand how I might believe this, in view of 
the fact that I am quoting scripture? 

jt: You still can't escape the "obedience" 
factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie "By faith Abraham 
obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to all them that obey Him (Heb 
5:9) and "what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God" 
(1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting scripture too JD; this makes me even more 
certain that clinging to this incarnational thing is 
folly.JD: They were SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw 
only danger in their return to the law. These folk are 
converted Gentiles. They are not Jews. Yet, there are 
those who would drag them back into a life of compliance to the Law. 
jt: How can you be sure they were all 
Gentiles 

JD: They had not been circumcised (Gal 5:2) 

jt: Paul makes a point here, he is not 
specifically referring to them ... all we know for sure is that they 
lived in Galatia. The Judaizers were pretty busy, in fact they stirred 
up trouble everywhere Paul went giving him a reputation. They 
taught that it was Jesus plus the Levitical system in part even without 
a temple; these ppl had reverted back to Judaism and Galatians 3:3 
explains his meaning "Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, 
are you now made perfect by the flesh? So the contrast is between flesh 
and spirit, rather than God's Law and Christ. 

JD: By the way, I am not saying that all in Galatia were Gentiles, 
but it was probably a Gentile congregation, for the most 
part.The "flesh" in this passage is the Law. Context 
Judy, context. They had the power -- and Paul is 
saying, do not choose law over Spirit. jt: No, heexhorts them to get out of the flesh and 
back into walking after the Spirit, this says nothing about the 
Law. 

JD: Judy, please read 4:24-29. This is what it says to 
me: you have Hagar (Mount Sinai ? the Law) AND HER CHILDREN 
(24-25). Jerusalem is the free woman, and Isaac is a fellow child 
of the promise --- not Hagar and her children.Pay 
special attention to verses 28 and 29 ??? And you brethren,

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




So then, failing to get the point carries the day 
once more! Kudos David! Fire moderators. Warn people not to respond. Commend a 
Mormon while critiquing a Christian. Hi kids! Can we all say the word 'control'? 


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 11:55
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] 
  Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
  
  
  Advice heeded DavidM and I doappreciate the 
  encouraging words.
  Thank You. jt
  
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:28:28 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 
  Lance wrote:  Please read my post one more time. Tell me 
  what  it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking 
   of you.  Be careful in telling Lance what you believe he 
  is saying to you,  Judy. We

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread Terry Clifton

I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff along
the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to
say about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.
You have read them many times I am sure, or you would never have eaten
a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham sandwich. (Break one law and you
have broken them all).
Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how
am I wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
am missing it? judyt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I disagree, but only because you are wrong. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

I understand what you are saying is
dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has
always been Christ. Israel are the
natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's
ppl are God's ppl in every generation and
basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his
teachings you will find they reflect the
Law given at Sinai. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she
voluntarily became a Jew. Terry

Judy Taylor wrote:

Terry the law still judges us
wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" says
that we will reap as we sow. It isnot necessary to be a Jewish proselyte. Also there is
a difference between God's moral law and
the Levitical Law; the latter has been nailed to the cross, the former still stands and has not gone anywhere. We can
fulfill it through Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the problem JD and
I wrestle with periodically. The gospel
he and Lance promote gives unconditional acceptance to everyone and
does not deal with theseissues. jt

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you
has ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish proselyte.
Terry

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote:You are a legalist, David.

David wrote: Thank you. Nothing
wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist too. Read the Torah
and study why Jesus had to die for your sins.

John responds: There can be no
argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse of
the Law away
Blessed are those whose "sins and iniquities are remembered no more."
Where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any
offering for sin -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have
the end of law.

jt: Christ did not become a curse
for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is still all over
those ppl and they
are wearing it. Sickness is the curse of the
law.

The
curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual death). Deut
28:20. Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 --
but it is sickness unto death until
you are destroyed, until you perish quickly .. (v 20). In
Christ, He has [tasted] death for everyone (Heb
2), the implication being that death has been destroyed. More
than this, Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered
powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we might be
delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of death (2:15).
Christ, Himself, describes the victory in these
words: Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word, he shall never
see death (Jo 8:51).

The contrast is law verses
Spirit.If righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain,
David. Therefore, the faith

Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




No. I am asking you Judy since you are the one I am 
communicating with at present. I've no idea who that is on that 'cross' you are 
preaching. It'd appear not to be the eternal, incarnate, Son, the Person of the 
Trinitarian God Who was neither the Father nor the Spirit.

ginal Message - 

  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: May 30, 2005 12:41
  Subject: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] 
  Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit
  
  No I am asking you Lance since you are the one I am 
  communicating with at present.
  The way I see it responding to the cross causes us to 
  agree with God that in our flesh dwells no good thing so we agree to die to 
  the old man and walk in the newness of the Spirit. Whereas the 
  "incarnational gospel" tells everyone God loves them as is and they are "in" 
  because of the DBR of Christ. jt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:25:57 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
  
As you find in him authority, why not ask David 
if he might speak of the relation of the Incarnation to the Atonement? 


From: Judy Taylor 

  I understand you to be 
  asking me what I believe about the incarnation Lance - if I am setting 
  'the cross over against the incarnation' and if Paul preached the cross 
  over against the incarnation.
  
  If the incarnation is left in it's proper setting 
  then I don't see any reason to come against it. However, when it is taken 
  from it's rightful place and made into something God never intended then I 
  would answer yes to the above.
  
  1. I agree that God supplied a body for His only 
  begotten son through a virgin by the name of Mary and that this is a fact 
  historically.
  
  2. I disagree with the "doctrine" of the 
  incarnation because so far as I can see it does not deal with God's 
  judgment against sin and it does nothing to lead God's ppl into 
  righteousness and holiness
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 06:43:06 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Jt:Please read my post one more time. Tell 
me what it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking of 
you.thanks for this,
Lance

  From: Judy 
  Taylor 
  
  Yes I am saying that the apostle Paul 
  preached the cross - I see it in his writings. As for this 
  Perichoresis
  and Icarnation it would be better if you tell 
  us what their significance is since you ar the expert. I'm not 
  so
  sure it is basically different from 
  universalism. jt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 05:38:50 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Jt:Do I understand you to be setting 'the cross' over AGAINST 'the 
incarnation'? 
Do I understand you to be saying that 
it was 'the cross' that Paul preached over 
AGAINST 'the incarnation'?
What is it that you understand 
regarding the so-called 'incarnational gospel'? With what do you 1. 
agree 2 disagree?

  From: Judy Taylor 
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:18:08 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer 
  to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the 
  works (obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I 
  will give you Paul for the sake of argument -- How did 
  Paul provide you with the Spirit and the working of miracles 
  -- through the works of the Law or by the hearing with 
  faith. My point is the same. jt: 
  Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but He works through 
  men. 
  
  JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my 
  point. The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were because 
  of faith, not law. Can you understand how I might 
  believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting 
  scripture? 
  
  jt: You still can't escape the 
  "obedience" factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie 
  "By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to all 
  them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be of them 
  that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am quoting 
  scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that clinging to 
  this incarnational thing is folly.JD: They were 
  SPIRIT-FILLED, Judy and yet, Paul saw only danger in their return 
  to the law. These folk are converted 
  Gentiles. They are

RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread ShieldsFamily




Terry, she isn't speaking about Mosaic law. She is speaking 
about God's laws for everyone who wishes to be a child of God. You know; 
like no lying, stealing, adultery, murder, idolatry--do you have a problem here? 
If so, show us the scriptural refutation please. Izzy


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry 
CliftonSent: Monday, May 30, 2005 11:09 AMTo: 
TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on 
the Law and the Spirit
I showed you in scripture ,Judy. If you want additional stuff 
along the same line from the NT, check out what both Peter and Paul had to say 
about gentiles not being under (Mosaic ) Law.You have read them many times I 
am sure, or you would never have eaten a rabbit or crab or shrimp or a ham 
sandwich. (Break one law and you have broken them all).TerryJudy 
Taylor wrote: 

  Why do you think I am wrong Terry and how am I 
  wrong? Can you show me in scripture where I
  am missing it? judyt
  
  On Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:13 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
I disagree, but only because you are wrong. TerryJudy Taylor 
wrote: 

  
  I understand what you are saying is 
  dispensational teaching Terry - but there is just one tree and it has 
  always been Christ. Israel are the 
  natural branches and we have been grafted in (see Romans 11). God's 
  ppl are God's ppl in every generation and 
  basically Jesus is the Word of God. If you look closely at his 
  teachings you will find they reflect the Law 
  given at Sinai. jt
  
  On Sun, 29 May 2005 19:26:53 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
Lev.27:34 Judy. The Mosaic law was for the "Children of 
Israel". No Gentile has ever been under Mosaic law unless he/she 
voluntarily became a Jew. TerryJudy Taylor wrote: 

  
  Terry the law still judges us 
  wheneverwe break it - because the "righteous judgment of God" 
  says that we will reap as we sow. It 
  isnot necessary to be a Jewish 
  proselyte. Also there is a difference 
  between God's moral law and the Levitical Law; the latter has been 
  nailed to the cross, the former still 
  stands and has not gone anywhere. We can fulfill it through 
  Christ as we walk after the Spirit and reckon our old flesh naturedead. This is the 
  problem JD and I wrestle with periodically. The gospel he and Lance promote gives unconditional 
  acceptance to everyone and does not deal with theseissues. jt
  
  On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:02:58 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  
I don't know why y'all are arguing. Neither of you has 
ever been under the law, unless you were a Jewish 
proselyte.Terry[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

  
  
  
  
  
  
  On Sat, 28 May 2005 18:04:47 -0400 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John 
  wrote:You are a legalist, 
  David.
  
  David wrote: Thank you. 
  Nothing wrong with being a legalist. God is a legalist 
  too. Read the Torah and study why Jesus had to die for your 
  sins.
  
  John responds: There can be no 
  argument that God was the author of the Law. Christ took the curse 
  of the Law awayBlessed are those whose "sins and iniquities 
  are remembered no more." Where there is forgiveness of these 
  things, there is no longer any offering for sin 
  -- He 10:18. In the fulfillment of the Law, we have 
  the end of law.
  
  jt: Christ did not become a curse 
  for those who keep on wilfully sinningJD. The curse is 
  still all over those ppl and 
  they
  are wearing it. Sickness is the curse 
  of the law.
  
  The curse of the Law, Judy, is death (spiritual 
  death). Deut 28:20. 
  Sickness is obviously in view in Deut 28 
  -- but it is sickness unto 
  death until you are destroyed, until you 
  perish quickly .. (v 20). In 
  Christ, He has [tasted] death for 
  everyone (Heb 2), the implication being that 
  death has been destroyed. More than this, 
  Satan Himself, who has the power of death, has been rendered 
  powerless by the cross ; (Heb 2:14) so that we 
  might be delivered from slavery as a result of the fear of 
  death (2:15). Christ, 
  Himself, describes the victory in these words: Truly I say unto 
  you, if anyone keeps my word,

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Gary wrote:
 but (e.g.) Flipper never seemed to take this
 stuff too seriously

Maybe that's why Flipper isn't a son of God and why he isn't on TruthTalk. 
:-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Lance wrote:
 Warn people not to respond.

I did not warn her not to respond.  I asked her to be careful in how she 
responded.  You guys do not realize it, but you come across the way the 
Pharisees and scholars of Jesus day questioned Jesus.  The questions seem 
simple enough, but they merely setup answers by which ammunition can be 
taken to attack and accuse.  I would like to see Judy answer your question 
about how she understands your doctrine of the Incarnation, but she should 
be careful in how she answers you.  I don't want to read a repeat of what 
John did to me, accusing me of misrepresenting and misquoting him.  You seem 
to understand more about language, semantics and syntax, than John does, but 
your reaction to John's dialogue with me gives me concern for Judy and hence 
my encouragement for her to use wisdom.  I think she understands where I am 
coming from.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Gary wrote:
 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this 
list right now seems to believe this.  The key word here is RELY.  I do 
not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law.  I hear her 
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to 
comply with the righteous requirements of the law.  We ought not reject 
obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. 
The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?

Romans 8:4
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not 
after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
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RE: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

2005-05-30 Thread ShieldsFamily

Amen, David.  And does Terry believe this? Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2005 1:27 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit

Gary wrote:
 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse

I hope everyone on the list understands that most everyone posting on this 
list right now seems to believe this.  The key word here is RELY.  I do 
not hear Judy saying that we need to rely on observing the law.  I hear her 
saying that we should rely upon Christ, and when we do, we can expect to 
comply with the righteous requirements of the law.  We ought not reject 
obedience nor the righteousness of the law just because we rely on Christ. 
The question is, does Gary, Lance, and John believe this?

Romans 8:4
(4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not

after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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[TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit




It's not; actually it is Jesus of Nazareth, only 
begotten Son of God who was the Word made flesh who came
and dwelt for a time amongst us. jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 13:11:09 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
No. I am asking you Judy since you are the one I am 
communicating with at present. I've no idea who that is on that 'cross' you 

are preaching. It'd appear not 
to be the eternal, incarnate, Son, the Person of the Trinitarian God Who was 
neither the Father nor the Spirit.

  
  From: Judy Taylor 
  
No I am asking you Lance 
since you are the one I am communicating with at present.
The way I see it responding to the cross causes us 
to agree with God that in our flesh dwells no good thing so we agree to die 
to the old man and walk in the newness of the Spirit. Whereas the 
"incarnational gospel" tells everyone God loves them as is and they are "in" 
because of the DBR of Christ. jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 12:25:57 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  As you find in him authority, why not ask 
  David if he might speak of the relation of the Incarnation to the 
  Atonement? 
  
  From: Judy Taylor 
  
I understand you to be 
asking me what I believe about the incarnation Lance - if I am setting 
'the cross over against the incarnation' and if Paul preached the cross 
over against the incarnation.

If the incarnation is left in it's proper 
setting then I don't see any reason to come against it. However, when it 
is taken from it's rightful place and made into something God never 
intended then I would answer yes to the above.

1. I agree that God supplied a body for His 
only begotten son through a virgin by the name of Mary and that this is 
a fact historically.

2. I disagree with the "doctrine" of the 
incarnation because so far as I can see it does not deal with God's 
judgment against sin and it does nothing to lead God's ppl into 
righteousness and holiness

On Mon, 30 May 2005 06:43:06 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Jt:Please read my post one more time. 
  Tell me what it is that you believe I'm saying to you and, asking of 
  you.thanks for this,
  Lance
  
From: Judy 
Taylor 

Yes I am saying that the apostle Paul 
preached the cross - I see it in his writings. As for this 
Perichoresis
and Icarnation it would be better if you 
tell us what their significance is since you ar the expert. I'm not 
so
sure it is basically different from 
universalism. jt

On Mon, 30 May 2005 05:38:50 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

  Jt:Do I understand you to be setting 'the cross' over AGAINST 'the 
  incarnation'? 
  Do I understand you to be saying that 
  it was 'the cross' that Paul preached over 
  AGAINST 'the incarnation'?
  What is it that you understand 
  regarding the so-called 'incarnational gospel'? With what do you 
  1. agree 2 disagree?
  
From: Judy Taylor 

On Mon, 30 May 2005 01:18:08 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:
JD: A redundant question on Paul?s part; the correct answer 
to both questions is the "hearing with faith" as opposed to the 
works (obedience) of the Law. I think "He" is God, but I 
will give you Paul for the sake of argument -- How 
did Paul provide you with the Spirit and the working of 
miracles -- through the works of the Law or by the 
hearing with faith. My point is the same. jt: Yes the Spirit of God works the miracles but 
He works through men. 

JD: It does not make any differece as relates to my 
point. The fact is that the Spirit and miracles were 
because of faith, not law. Can you understand how I 
might believe this, in view of the fact that I am quoting 
scripture? 

jt: You still can't escape the 
"obedience" factor JD because there is an obedience of faith ie 
"By faith Abraham obeyed" (Heb 11:8) Jesus gives salvation to 
all them that obey Him (Heb 5:9) and "what shall the end be of 
them that obey not the gospel of God" (1 Peter 4:17). I am 
quoting scripture too JD; this makes me even more certain that 
clinging to this incarnational thing is

Re: [TruthTalk] Judy and John on the Law and the Spirit