subject:"Re\: \[Wikimediaindia\-l\] India Program\: Community Monthly Report\: Feb 2012"

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 hi,


 I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
 umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
 for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
 member.


 I think that although the chapter and community are volunteer based, the
 chapter has more legal sanctity and is answerable as an organisation
 against as a person being held responsible. Hence, it is important that
 even the chapter and the community be seperated. As an action taken by a
 member stating that he's taking on behalf of a  chapter, makes the Chapter
 answerable.

 I think it is necessary to seperate the chapter and community as well.


Sure, I agree with the sentiment.  The chapter is a legal entity and hence
accountable to its members and the state and national authorities.
 However, what I was trying to convey is that if a member of a chapter (who
also happens to be a volunteer) executes a project, in that scenario, I
don't see a reason to differentiate whether the work was done by a
community member or a chapter, unless the volunteer member wishes to do
so.



 In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the Foundation
 activities as well. I think it is best to either go for total seperation of
 community, chapter and Office or have general statements. This also makes
 it necessary for people who hold multiple positions within Chapter and
 Office to define their actions even more concretely since we're now
 speaking in terms of transparency and accountability.


We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
decision.  Thanks for the comments!


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Achal Prabhala




On Wednesday 07 March 2012 01:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:


I think that although the chapter and community are volunteer based, 
the chapter has more legal sanctity and is answerable as an 
organisation against as a person being held responsible. Hence, it is 
important that even the chapter and the community be seperated. As an 
action taken by a member stating that he's taking on behalf of a 
 chapter, makes the Chapter answerable.


I think it is necessary to seperate the chapter and community as well.

In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the 
Foundation activities as well. I think it is best to either go for 
total seperation of community, chapter and Office or have general 
statements. This also makes it necessary for people who hold multiple 
positions within Chapter and Office to define their actions even more 
concretely since we're now speaking in terms of transparency and 
accountability.



This makes a lot of sense. It's useful to understand exactly what people 
acting on behalf of the Foundation, the chapter, or themselves (the 
community) are doing; it's also very useful to understand exactly how 
they are working with others. To have a record of this (admittedly 
complex) cooperation will be very valuable in understanding how things 
actually work.






warm regards,
Pradeep
--
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9




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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Subhashish Panigrahi

On 7 March 2012 13:11, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:


 Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
 supported.  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
 the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
 have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
 presentation material to interested community members to participating in
 these events.


 Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
 simply supported.  For instance, when you say Supported the community
 to get a venue in Guwahati University, it would help us understand more if
 you could tell us how.

  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
 tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Pranav,
 In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
 which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.


 I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
 out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
 transparency towards the community.


 Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community
 member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me
 and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika
 was actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.
 One must not also forget that both Hisham  Nitika are also chapter
 members.


 Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a
 chapter/community volunteer.



 Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel
 expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The
 event is supported by Hisham  Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs
 executive.


 Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
 Programs.

I am still a volunteer when it comes to anything which involves my
participation as a community member, involvement with the WMF doesn't stop
being a volunteer :)




 I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others ..
 Should I be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member
 or a community member?


 By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just...
 volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and
 hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with
 clarity.  Simply supporting something does not clarify the extent of
 their involvement.


 As with Assam meetup recently, coordinated by Shiju, some of the expenses
 were met from a personal grant from the Foundation to me  Shiju.

 There was a recent Malayalam Wiki Academy in Bangalore organised by
 Malayalam Community. Some of them are also Chapter members. People like me
 and Naveen actively helped the event ..Are we doing as chapter board member
 or community member? We don't really know.. But we are just genuinely
 helping the movement, with worrying about what capacity we are doing it.


 I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
 umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
 for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
 member.



 The various academies that we do, some of the requests comes directly to
 the chapter, community or India programs, but each supporting each other in
 different capacities.

 Now Noopur is a GLAM Champion, Chapter member and Delhi SIG Chair and
 also part of Chapter Communications Team. She now also heads the
 Communication  PR for the India Programs.

 As I explained, it is difficult to separate the contributions of
 different entities or individuals for the Wikimedia  movement in India.

 IMHO, we should be only concerned about the outcomes of the event and not
 who gets the credit.


 Even though the possibility of interfacing each other is high for
 different entities and groups of volunteers working in India, there is a
 need for differentiation and it is a question which cannot be avoided.  The
 volunteers who work on their pet-projects while not being associated with
 any of the entities are not expected to be as accountable as (i) the
 chapter which receives or may receive grants from the Wikimedia Foundation
 and donations from individuals and organizations in the country AND (ii)
 the WMF India Programs which is run by multiple paid consultants.

 So I don't see why we shouldn't care about differentiation, or why it may
 be an undesirable thing to want to differentiate.  Ultimately we all want
 results, yes, but we also need to understand causality because there are
 significant amount of funds involved.  We need to differentiate because
 there are different degrees of accountability involved both with the

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Pradeep Mohandas

hi,

Also think that putting this up on the talk page of the report would be
more helpful. Else, not many people will remember that this discussion even
took place. Discussions on this mailing list have a tendency to get buried.

warm regards,
Pradeep

On 7 March 2012 14:35, Subhashish Panigrahi psubhash...@gmail.com wrote:



 On 7 March 2012 13:11, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:


 Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
 supported.  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
 the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
 have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
 presentation material to interested community members to participating in
 these events.


 Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
 simply supported.  For instance, when you say Supported the community
 to get a venue in Guwahati University, it would help us understand more if
 you could tell us how.

  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
 tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Pranav,
 In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
 which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.


 I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
 out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
 transparency towards the community.


 Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a
 community member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved
 along with me and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some
 goodies. Nitika was actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member
 and Rsrikanth.  One must not also forget that both Hisham  Nitika are also
 chapter members.


 Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a
 chapter/community volunteer.



 Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his
 travel expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair
 .. The event is supported by Hisham  Nitika too. Subha is also an India
 Programs executive.


 Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
 Programs.

 I am still a volunteer when it comes to anything which involves my
 participation as a community member, involvement with the WMF doesn't stop
 being a volunteer :)




 I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others ..
 Should I be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member
 or a community member?


 By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just...
 volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and
 hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with
 clarity.  Simply supporting something does not clarify the extent of
 their involvement.


 As with Assam meetup recently, coordinated by Shiju, some of the
 expenses were met from a personal grant from the Foundation to me  Shiju.

 There was a recent Malayalam Wiki Academy in Bangalore organised by
 Malayalam Community. Some of them are also Chapter members. People like me
 and Naveen actively helped the event ..Are we doing as chapter board member
 or community member? We don't really know.. But we are just genuinely
 helping the movement, with worrying about what capacity we are doing it.


 I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
 umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
 for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
 member.



 The various academies that we do, some of the requests comes directly to
 the chapter, community or India programs, but each supporting each other in
 different capacities.

 Now Noopur is a GLAM Champion, Chapter member and Delhi SIG Chair and
 also part of Chapter Communications Team. She now also heads the
 Communication  PR for the India Programs.

 As I explained, it is difficult to separate the contributions of
 different entities or individuals for the Wikimedia  movement in India.

 IMHO, we should be only concerned about the outcomes of the event and
 not who gets the credit.


 Even though the possibility of interfacing each other is high for
 different entities and groups of volunteers working in India, there is a
 need for differentiation and it is a question which cannot be avoided.  The
 volunteers who work on their pet-projects while not being associated with
 any of the entities are not expected to be as accountable as (i) the
 chapter which receives or may receive grants from the Wikimedia Foundation
 and donations from individuals and organizations in the country AND (ii)
 the WMF India Programs which is run by multiple paid consultants.

 So I don't see why we shouldn't care

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Shiju Alex

I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.


Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with India
 Programs.


What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.


Shiju Alex

(An Indic language wikipedian)







On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:


 Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
 supported.  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
 the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
 have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
 presentation material to interested community members to participating in
 these events.


 Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
 simply supported.  For instance, when you say Supported the community
 to get a venue in Guwahati University, it would help us understand more if
 you could tell us how.

  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
 tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Pranav,
 In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
 which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.


 I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
 out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
 transparency towards the community.


 Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community
 member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me
 and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika
 was actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.
 One must not also forget that both Hisham  Nitika are also chapter
 members.


 Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a
 chapter/community volunteer.



 Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel
 expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The
 event is supported by Hisham  Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs
 executive.


 Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
 Programs.



 I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others ..
 Should I be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member
 or a community member?


 By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just...
 volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and
 hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with
 clarity.  Simply supporting something does not clarify the extent of
 their involvement.


 As with Assam meetup recently, coordinated by Shiju, some of the expenses
 were met from a personal grant from the Foundation to me  Shiju.

 There was a recent Malayalam Wiki Academy in Bangalore organised by
 Malayalam Community. Some of them are also Chapter members. People like me
 and Naveen actively helped the event ..Are we doing as chapter board member
 or community member? We don't really know.. But we are just genuinely
 helping the movement, with worrying about what capacity we are doing it.


 I don't think it's a good idea to separate the chapter and the community.
  The chapter is a membership-based organization and by definition an
 umbrella organization which represents the community.  There is no reason
 for differentiation as long as it is volunteer work done by a chapter
 member.



 The various academies that we do, some of the requests comes directly to
 the chapter, community or India programs, but each supporting each other in
 different capacities.

 Now Noopur is a GLAM Champion, Chapter member and Delhi SIG Chair and
 also part of Chapter Communications Team. She now also heads the
 Communication  PR for the India Programs.

 As I explained, it is difficult to separate the contributions of
 different entities or individuals for the Wikimedia  movement in India.

 IMHO, we should be only concerned about the outcomes of the event and not
 who gets the credit.


 Even though the possibility of interfacing each other is high for
 different entities and groups of volunteers working in India, there is a
 need for differentiation and it is a question which cannot be avoided.  The
 volunteers who work on their pet-projects while not being associated with
 any of the entities are not expected to be as accountable as (i) the
 chapter which receives or may receive grants from the Wikimedia Foundation
 and donations from individuals and organizations in the country AND (ii)
 the WMF India Programs which is run by multiple paid consultants.

 So I don't see why we

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Heya,
Personally, I feel that the work done by the Chapter and IP need to
segregated, solely for the purpose of accountability.


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.


 Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
 India Programs.


 What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
 close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
 I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
 India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.


 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?

 The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
 same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
 able to.


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-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Shiju Alex


 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?


You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement with
wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement will be
there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare your
wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which  all
projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
community?



Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
being with Wikimedia movement in India.


Shiju Alex

(An Indic language wikipedian)







On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.


 Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
 India Programs.


 What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
 close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
 I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
 India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.


 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?

 The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
 same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
 able to.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Shiju,
I request you to calm down first.
Please do NOT take anything as a personal attack.
--

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:39 AM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?


 You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
 with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
 will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
 your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
 all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
 various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
 that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
 community?



 Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
 helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
 wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
 being with Wikimedia movement in India.



 Shiju Alex

 (An Indic language wikipedian)







 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.


 Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
 India Programs.


 What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian
 now close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India
 chapter) I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of
 wikimedia India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for
 this.


 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?

 The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
 same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
 able to.


 ___
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 Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?


 You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
 with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
 will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
 your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
 all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
 various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
 that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
 community?

 Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
 helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
 wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
 being with Wikimedia movement in India.


If you cannot comprehend simple English, then you should re-consider
whether you can add value to the discussions here.  I will not reiterate
myself, the difference is quite clear.  Please remember that the list is
moderated.  Thanks.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Hi Shiju

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?


 You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
 with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
 will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
 your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
 all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
 various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
 that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
 community?


Let me first explain what he was trying to refer to. He called you a
volunteer, from the Latin word voluntarius[1], meaning voluntary or
willing. The noun form [2] describes it as -
1.One who enters into, or offers for, any
servicehttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/service of
his/her own free will, especially when done without pay.

I'm not sure what you are reacting to. It is a simple distinction between
paid and non-paid effort. You were a community member, you still are, and
you shall remain one until you choose to leave it.

You are however, currently a paid employee, there is a very clear
distinction between volunteers and staff. I assure you it exists on en.wp
and outside India when the senior staff interact and talk about other
community members, they always use the word volunteers as opposed to
staff. You can check with this in several hundred of Sue and Barry's
email if you like. The distinction is paid vs. non-paid, nothing more. This
extends to community members and beyond.

There is no reason to be angry over this, it's just terminology and
possibly a misunderstanding.


 Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
 helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
 wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
 being with Wikimedia movement in India.


No one should be asking that question to another community member. I can
ask you that, you can ask me, it is all a matter of perspective. We are
only accountable to ourselves, and what we choose to do or say.

I would ask you to please calm down and don't take this as an offense. It's
probably just a misunderstanding with terminology that is usually applied
in these situations.

Regards
Theo

[1]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/voluntarius#Latin
[2]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/volunteer
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Anivar Aravind

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.com wrote:
 I am replying to this mail as a Malayalam wikimedia community member.


 Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
 Programs.


 What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
 close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter) I
 am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia India
 chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.


Dear Shiju  subha,

Both of you need to differentiate between paid and volunteered works.
you can still volunteer for many things in your individual capacity .
Only two of you need to define which one is a  part of job and which
one is in your volunteer capacities. I think India programme reports
only need to highlight the official part more clearly with specific
involvement. Volunteering can go as a part of community/chapter
reports .

Hope it is clear now

Anivar

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Dear Anirudh  Shiju,

I would strongly dispose this as NOT the official position of the chapter.

I have a different opinion but again I won't attribute to the chapter. What
I say below is my personal opinion.

Just because someone decides to work full time ( and paid too) doesn't mean
it ceases to do anything as a volunteer.

If someone is not able to spend the same extent of time to the movement as
a volunteer, there is their own problem. Nobody is going to ask anyone why
you are not doing your job as a volunteer.  I have a high pressured day job
to keep and family  friends to take care, and I do my volunteer work with
the limited time , it is my choice. If I decide to work as full time as a
paid staff ( for the same movement), I don't need advise from someone else
to tell me what I should be doing as a volunteer and what I should not !

On a very hypothetical case, if you were working on a legal position for
WMF India, would you like someone to define that what your volunteer work
should be ?

As I clearly explained earlier, many a times, due to nature of our
involvement with the movement, it is practically separate whether  we does
something as a volunteer, chapter member or chapter board member or even
foundation staff.

Pranav and Pradeep were working on a Foundation paid Fellowship for an
event like WikiConference that was supported by Community and conducted on
the banner of the Wikimedia India Chapter. Both are chapter members and
leaders ( as well as community members). Where does the work for the
Conference end as a Foundation full time Fellow end and where does it start
as community or chapter member?

Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.

Hope that clarifies

-TC





On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.


 Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
 India Programs.


 What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
 close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
 I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
 India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.


 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?

 The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
 same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
 able to.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Without meaning to be disrespectful of you. your helpful attitude or your
excellent work, Shiju, we have a bit of a problem when we ask people for
help/favours/action in case they are holding multiple positions.

I asked for a list of Malayalam articles of the 500 article CD collection.
You obliged me promptly and I was happy  grateful. I had asked you as a
friend/volunteer to one another. But suppose you hadn't obliged for any
personal reason, there was nothing I could do about it but feel bad.

But you are in fact a paid employee/contractor of WMF and your area of
responsibility is the very same area where you were earlier only a
volunteer. Had you refused for whatever reason, have I a right to expect
support from you because you are being paid to do so?

Take Noopur's case, her responsibilities are highly incestuous as she is
all things - editor/chapter/WMF contractor.  It is quite likely that the
communications team of the chapter wants to go as per one line of thought
whereas the WMF may want to go along another. In this case, there is a
Conflict of Interest. How can we know whether she is acting true to
community or true to WMF? It is wrong to put Noopur in such a position and
Imho she should clearly embrace the role of WMF employee/contractor and be
true to WMF at all times. There is enough time  opportunity for her to be
community once her paid association ends.

We do need certain demarcation in roles and responsibilities. I recommend
that those who are WMF employees should NOT be part of the Chapter
communications team. They are welcome to help and partner but in their
proper role as WMF appointments.

Similarly, a volunteer who is a chapter EC should clarify at all times with
what voice he speaks. In case you are speaking as a Chapter EC, please sign
off as (for example) Anirudh Bhati, Member EC, India Chapter and use your
official wikimedia.in email account. If you are writing as a simple editor
and giving your personal opinion, then Nearly Headless Nick or Sir Nicholas
de Mimsy Porpington will do just fine.

In my own case, I act as English Wikipedia SIG. I see myself as a steward
of WikiProject India. The WikiProject is a sacred trust which I hold in
care on behalf of the greater community. I am a chapter member and do this
job as a consequence of nomination and approval by community members in the
Chapter wiki. But I see myself as answerable NOT to the Chapter but to the
whole community. My work should be judged by the community and the day they
feel I am not acting in the best interests of the community, I will stop
working on WikiProject India and become a normal editor again, even if the
chapter feels I am doing okay. But if the chapter feels they need to
replace me as English SIG I have no objection at all but will not stop
working in the WikiProject because of that. The day I feel that chapter
membership compromises my WikiProject India responsibilities, I will quit
the chapter.

Just some of my thoughts.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.


 Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with India
 Programs.


 What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now
 close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter)
 I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia
 India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for this.


 Shiju Alex

 (An Indic language wikipedian)







 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:


 Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
 supported.  Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
 the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we
 have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
 presentation material to interested community members to participating in
 these events.


 Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than
 simply supported.  For instance, when you say Supported the community
 to get a venue in Guwahati University, it would help us understand more if
 you could tell us how.

  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
 tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Pranav,
 In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
 which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.


 I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
 out the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and
 transparency towards the community.


 Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a
 community member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved
 along with me

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Shiju Alex


 Let me first explain what he was trying to refer to. He called you a
 volunteer, from the Latin word voluntarius[1], meaning voluntary or
 willing. The noun form [2] describes it as -
 1.One who enters into, or offers for, any 
 servicehttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/service of
 his/her own free will, especially when done without pay.


That exactly is the difference of my contribution as a volunteer.  My
contribution to wiki as a volunteer do not depend on the above definition
or my official involvement in WMF or other WMF entities.

On one side few people (for example, Anirudh) are screwing up volunteers
for taking job in WMF; On the other side they themselves criticizing WMF
staff for not being recruited from community. So what is the real intention
of all these discussions?



Shiju

(Again an Indic language wikipedian)


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Shiju

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?


 You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
 with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
 will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
 your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
 all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
 various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
 that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
 community?


 Let me first explain what he was trying to refer to. He called you a
 volunteer, from the Latin word voluntarius[1], meaning voluntary or
 willing. The noun form [2] describes it as -
  1.One who enters into, or offers for, any 
 servicehttp://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/service of
 his/her own free will, especially when done without pay.

 I'm not sure what you are reacting to. It is a simple distinction between
 paid and non-paid effort. You were a community member, you still are, and
 you shall remain one until you choose to leave it.

 You are however, currently a paid employee, there is a very clear
 distinction between volunteers and staff. I assure you it exists on en.wp
 and outside India when the senior staff interact and talk about other
 community members, they always use the word volunteers as opposed to
 staff. You can check with this in several hundred of Sue and Barry's
 email if you like. The distinction is paid vs. non-paid, nothing more. This
 extends to community members and beyond.

 There is no reason to be angry over this, it's just terminology and
 possibly a misunderstanding.


 Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
 helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
 wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
 being with Wikimedia movement in India.


 No one should be asking that question to another community member. I can
 ask you that, you can ask me, it is all a matter of perspective. We are
 only accountable to ourselves, and what we choose to do or say.

 I would ask you to please calm down and don't take this as an offense.
 It's probably just a misunderstanding with terminology that is usually
 applied in these situations.

 Regards
 Theo

 [1]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/voluntarius#Latin
 [2]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/volunteer

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Achal Prabhala

In keeping with this spirit :) and the difficulty of distinguishing 
between all these roles, I propose a simple purity test:


Are you a paid employee of the foundation or a paid contractor? (-25)
Have you ever been a paid employee or contractor? (-15)
Did you resign/stop? (+5)
Did you resign/stop in disgust? (+25)
Are you on the board of the foundation? (-200)
Did you ever serve on the board of the foundation? (-100)
Are you on the advisory board of the foundation? (what's that?)
Have you ever met a current or former foundation board member or staff 
member? (-25)
Did you decontaminate yourself in a registered medical facility 
immediately after this meeting? (+50)

Did you talk to this person for more than 30 seconds? (-50)
Did you share a meal with this person? (-75)
Did you share, er, anything else with this person? (-300)
Do you know anyone who has met with a foundation board member or staff 
member for more than 30 seconds? (-15)

Do you know this person well? (-30)
Have you ever been helped in your work by a foundation board member or 
staff member who was a 'former volunteer'? (-100)
Have you ever been helped in your work by a foundation board member or 
staff member who was not a 'former volunteer'? (-200)
Do you know anyone who has been helped by a foundation board member or 
staff member? (-50)

Do you know why you're even bothering to read these questions? (+1000)

For convenience's sake, anyone with a score of -100 or below should be 
branded on the forehead with hot irons for easy identification.


Cheers :)


On Wednesday 07 March 2012 02:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.com 
mailto:shijualexonl...@gmail.com wrote:


I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community
member*.


Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant
with India Programs.


What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language
wikipedian now close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC
member of India chapter) I am a former volunteer. is this is the
official position of wikimedia India chapter? As a community
member I require an explanation for this.


Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid 
contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the 
purview of your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be 
work as a paid contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a 
volunteer. You can continue being volunteers once your contractual 
assignment is complete.  Is that so difficult to understand?


The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the 
same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are 
currently able to.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Thanks, Tinu.  I generally agree with you.  Except that I never tried to
tell anyone about what they ought to be doing as a volunteer and what not.
 There is a simple distinction between staff/consultants and volunteers as
is evident from conventional usage across the Wikimedia universe.  The only
reference I made was to paid work done under the purview of contractual
assignment with the Foundation, anything outside done in individual
capacity and outside of working hours is still that of a volunteer.

Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at the
end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion.  For instance, I
wouldn't claim that Shiju's indisposition towards me is the official stance
of his employer.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 Dear Anirudh  Shiju,

 I would strongly dispose this as NOT the official position of the chapter.

 I have a different opinion but again I won't attribute to the chapter.
 What I say below is my personal opinion.

 Just because someone decides to work full time ( and paid too) doesn't
 mean it ceases to do anything as a volunteer.

 If someone is not able to spend the same extent of time to the movement as
 a volunteer, there is their own problem. Nobody is going to ask anyone why
 you are not doing your job as a volunteer.  I have a high pressured day job
 to keep and family  friends to take care, and I do my volunteer work with
 the limited time , it is my choice. If I decide to work as full time as a
 paid staff ( for the same movement), I don't need advise from someone else
 to tell me what I should be doing as a volunteer and what I should not !

 On a very hypothetical case, if you were working on a legal position for
 WMF India, would you like someone to define that what your volunteer work
 should be ?

 As I clearly explained earlier, many a times, due to nature of our
 involvement with the movement, it is practically separate whether  we does
 something as a volunteer, chapter member or chapter board member or even
 foundation staff.

 Pranav and Pradeep were working on a Foundation paid Fellowship for an
 event like WikiConference that was supported by Community and conducted on
 the banner of the Wikimedia India Chapter. Both are chapter members and
 leaders ( as well as community members). Where does the work for the
 Conference end as a Foundation full time Fellow end and where does it start
 as community or chapter member?

 Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
 his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
 staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
 any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
 who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
 volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.

 Hope that clarifies

 -TC





 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 I am replying to this mail as a *Malayalam wikimedia community member*.


 Fact:  Subhashish, *former volunteer*, and now paid consultant with
 India Programs.


 What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian
 now close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India
 chapter) I am a former volunteer. is this is the official position of
 wikimedia India chapter? As a community member I require an explanation for
 this.


 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?

 The difference is this: I am an unpaid volunteer who cannot expend the
 same amount of time and energy towards our projects as you are currently
 able to.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Lakshmanan

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:43, Achal Prabhala aprabh...@gmail.com wrote:

 In keeping with this spirit :) and the difficulty of distinguishing
 between all these roles, I propose a simple purity test:


Can you please stop trolling? This is not I-Dont-want-mention-list-l

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Achal Prabhala




On Wednesday 07 March 2012 03:47 PM, Srikanth Lakshmanan wrote:
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:43, Achal Prabhala aprabh...@gmail.com 
mailto:aprabh...@gmail.com wrote:


In keeping with this spirit :) and the difficulty of
distinguishing between all these roles, I propose a simple purity
test:


Can you please stop trolling? This is not I-Dont-want-mention-list-l



Apologies. That was meant as a joke.



--
Regards
Srikanth.L


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Aditya Sengupta

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:51, Achal Prabhala aprabh...@gmail.com wrote:



 On Wednesday 07 March 2012 03:47 PM, Srikanth Lakshmanan wrote:

  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:43, Achal Prabhala aprabh...@gmail.commailto:
 aprabh...@gmail.com wrote:

In keeping with this spirit :) and the difficulty of
distinguishing between all these roles, I propose a simple purity
test:


 Can you please stop trolling? This is not I-Dont-want-mention-list-l



 Apologies. That was meant as a joke.




What? I was halfway through calculating my score. Dammit.
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:


 Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
 his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
 staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
 any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
 who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
 volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.

 Hope that clarifies


I'm not sure what you are talking about above.

The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know, they
should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several countries
dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees of their own or
parent organizations. Several chapter board members usually resign to take
up employee position. It used to be that they had to resign to take up any
position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new feature with
confusing legality, but there are still individuals who see the distinction
and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board members by definition
can not be paid employees, this is not my distinction but a legal one.
Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations should adhere to.

I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can demarcate
what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. The community
staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this clearly, on wiki.

It might not be practically separate whether  we does something as a
volunteer the distinction is actually quite simple. One that en.wp,
staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one does
as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is why
they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user pages,
demarcating this very difference.

Regards
Theo

P.S. @achal lol
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham


On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:01 PM, wheredevelsd...@hotmail.com 
wheredevelsd...@hotmail.com wrote:

 
 Hisham: IP has taken initiatives that need to be commended as well.

Thank you!  ;-)  

 For eg. Virtual Outreach via Google Hangout is Nitikas initiative. 
 
 

Not nit-picking - but want to make a distinction.

It is not Nitika's initiative.  If it is regarded as Nitika's initiative, it 
will fail!  It will only succeed if there are folks in the community who agree 
to get involved with it, try it out, draw learnings from it,  improve it, share 
it with other community members - who can then choose to adopt / adapt it.  It 
is an idea that she proposed - and she is having a bunch of discussions with a 
bunch of community members about how to actually realise it.

hisham

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Noopur

Dear all,
In personal capacity, just offering a small clarification. I agree that
chapter and IP as organizational entities should have their roles defined
and their reports tabulated. This is a very desirable and healthy practice
imho.
Regarding my role as SIG, GLAM person, member of the Chapter communications
and Foundation consultant, I believe it is not so much a case of
conflicting roles but a matter of  fewer people around. I am already
working on weekends as volunteer (in the museum and as SIG) and do not want
to be dissociated from the chapter communications team because I sincerely
look up to Tinu as a mentor. However, this is just my personal opinion.
Thank  you
Warm regards
Noopur

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:



 On Mar 7, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:

 hi,

 I don't think all events will fall so neatly into categories. I do not
 want to see a situation where Chapter and Foundation wrestle for any
 event.


 I agree, Pradeep. Having said that, the problem we are currently grappling
 with (and I think will continue to do so for the foreseeable future) is one
 of too much work and too little hands.  There is too much to do and no
 dearth of opportunities - and therefore there ought to be no cause for
 wrestling.  However, the India Chapter and India Program must (continue
 to) work at communicating and collaborating effectively.  I also think we
 should share these collaborations stories more impactfully to the community
 - to bring them to life for the community.

 hisham

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-- 
Noopur Raval
Student
Arts and Aesthetics
Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi
Ph: 9650567690
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.

IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid employee
of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.

The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
and too many arm chair advisers. Period.

-TC

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
  wrote:


 Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
 his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
 staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
 any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
 who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
 volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.

 Hope that clarifies


 I'm not sure what you are talking about above.

 The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know, they
 should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several countries
 dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees of their own or
 parent organizations. Several chapter board members usually resign to take
 up employee position. It used to be that they had to resign to take up any
 position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new feature with
 confusing legality, but there are still individuals who see the distinction
 and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board members by definition
 can not be paid employees, this is not my distinction but a legal one.
 Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations should adhere to.

 I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can
 demarcate what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. The
 community staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this clearly,
 on wiki.

 It might not be practically separate whether  we does something as a
 volunteer the distinction is actually quite simple. One that en.wp,
 staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one does
 as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is why
 they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user pages,
 demarcating this very difference.

 Regards
 Theo

 P.S. @achal lol

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
 Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
 Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
 parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.


I have. I have also participated in Movement roles discussions, and several
others with staff and the board members, to decide what position chapters
and WMF occupy.

Since you gave your opinion, here' s mine - No organization that has to
apply for an annual grant to the same granting organizations, request its
permission for trademark use, can be considered independent. This is again
a matter of law, not opinion. You can look at it differently, use different
terminology.

And please don't tell me about organizational independence. I
am running for the board of WMF on the argument of chapter independence and
decentralization. Out of the thousand emails and postings I have written on
this subject, some of which you have read yourself, telling me about
organizational independence feels a bit condescending.

While on that subject, can I ask what is the legal status of the Wikimedia
India program trust?



 IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid employee
 of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.


Well, I was talking about the matter of law, not opinion. Some countries
make that distinction, some don't.



 The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
 and too many arm chair advisers. Period.


No one is stopping you.


Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Tinu,

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
 Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
 Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
 parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.


The Wikimedia Foundation licenses the use of its trademark to independent
and autonomous chapters around the world.  This may constitute a
principle-agent relationship EVEN in the absence of a formal quid pro quo.
 In an ideal world, I would support structures that are as efficient as
possible.  But in the real world, we have to consider many variables (many
of which may be unsuitable for public discourse) that may have affect
organizations working in a less-than-ideal legal environment.  The
associated legal risks have a direct bearing on the office-bearers of the
institutions. I would urge that the discussion around legalities be
discontinued from now on, but focus rather on the propriety of holding
multiple positions of functionaries within two organizations using the same
trademark.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Tinu,

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
 Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
 Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
 parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.


 The Wikimedia Foundation licenses the use of its trademark to independent
 and autonomous chapters around the world.  This may constitute a
 principle-agent relationship EVEN in the absence of a formal quid pro quo.
  In an ideal world, I would support structures that are as efficient as
 possible.  But in the real world, we have to consider many variables (many
 of which may be unsuitable for public discourse) that may have affect
 organizations working in a less-than-ideal legal environment.  The
 associated legal risks have a direct bearing on the office-bearers of the
 institutions. I would urge that the discussion around legalities be
 discontinued from now on, but focus rather on the propriety of holding
 multiple positions of functionaries within two organizations using the same
 trademark.


To clarify:  The issue is transient for now, and my personal opinion is
that the two organizations/teams should not have the same functionaries.
 Not suggesting anything improper on the part of our contributors, this was
not a settled issue, but hopefully they will approve of this message.




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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Pradeep Mohandas

hi,

To set us back a bit, the discussion was originally centered on
volunteer-staff relationship.

Pradeep
Handheld

On 07/03/2012, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:
 Tinu,

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
 tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
 Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
 Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
 parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.


 The Wikimedia Foundation licenses the use of its trademark to independent
 and autonomous chapters around the world.  This may constitute a
 principle-agent relationship EVEN in the absence of a formal quid pro quo.
  In an ideal world, I would support structures that are as efficient as
 possible.  But in the real world, we have to consider many variables (many
 of which may be unsuitable for public discourse) that may have affect
 organizations working in a less-than-ideal legal environment.  The
 associated legal risks have a direct bearing on the office-bearers of the
 institutions. I would urge that the discussion around legalities be
 discontinued from now on, but focus rather on the propriety of holding
 multiple positions of functionaries within two organizations using the same
 trademark.


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-- 
Pradeep Mohandas
How Pradeep uses email - http://goo.gl/6v1I9

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

And to add
That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their
user pages, demarcating this very difference.

This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or writing
mails. Not in real life work !

I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the
chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live and
breathe Wikimedia, making it difficult to separate on which capacity each
of our action is.

You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?

-TC



On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
 Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
 Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
 parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.

 IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid employee
 of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.

 The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
 and too many arm chair advisers. Period.

 -TC

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:37 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
 tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:


 Everyone is encouraged to volunteer for the chapter , regardless of what
 his or her day job is. There is nothing that prevents even a foundation
 staff or contractor even being the board member of the chapter , less alone
 any volunteer or member.  There are several Wikimedia chapters in the world
 who has paid and full time staff working for them. The Secretary (
 volunteer) of the Dutch chapter is also a Foundation Full time Contractor.

 Hope that clarifies


 I'm not sure what you are talking about above.

 The issue with Siebrand is a conflict of interest, as far as I know, they
 should/would have declared it to their members. Laws in several countries
 dictate that board of non-profit can not be paid employees of their own or
 parent organizations. Several chapter board members usually resign to take
 up employee position. It used to be that they had to resign to take up any
 position as staff, but contractor is a relatively new feature with
 confusing legality, but there are still individuals who see the distinction
 and resign or declare their conflicts upfront. Board members by definition
 can not be paid employees, this is not my distinction but a legal one.
 Something I believe all WIkimedia organizations should adhere to.

 I believe Ashwin explained it much better than I could. If we can
 demarcate what role someone does something as, it would help a lot. The
 community staff at WMF usually keep 2 accounts to demarcate this clearly,
 on wiki.

 It might not be practically separate whether  we does something as a
 volunteer the distinction is actually quite simple. One that en.wp,
 staff and majority of the community holds- paid vs. non-paid. What one does
 as an employee is separate from what one does as an employee. That is why
 they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their user pages,
 demarcating this very difference.

 Regards
 Theo

 P.S. @achal lol

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Errm Theo,
Do remember that the India TRUST is DIFFERENT form the Chapter. It is from
the WMF side and has absolutely NO relation with the Chapter.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:32 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
 Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
 Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
 parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.


 I have. I have also participated in Movement roles discussions, and
 several others with staff and the board members, to decide what position
 chapters and WMF occupy.

 Since you gave your opinion, here' s mine - No organization that has to
 apply for an annual grant to the same granting organizations, request its
 permission for trademark use, can be considered independent. This is again
 a matter of law, not opinion. You can look at it differently, use different
 terminology.

 And please don't tell me about organizational independence. I
 am running for the board of WMF on the argument of chapter independence and
 decentralization. Out of the thousand emails and postings I have written on
 this subject, some of which you have read yourself, telling me about
 organizational independence feels a bit condescending.

 While on that subject, can I ask what is the legal status of the Wikimedia
 India program trust?



 IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid
 employee of the chapter and also a board member of the chapter as well.


 Well, I was talking about the matter of law, not opinion. Some countries
 make that distinction, some don't.



 The bigger problem is we have lots of work to do, very very little hands
 and too many arm chair advisers. Period.


 No one is stopping you.


 Regards
 Theo


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Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
 Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
 work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
 staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?


Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. I don't think anyone said
anything to that effect so far. Just said volunteer and staff work is
separate, not that it goes away or one negates the other. I completely
agreed with Ashwin on the need for better demarcation.

Here's some example-
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Theo_(WMF)   - my old contractor
account- read the disclaimer
http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ATheo10011diff=2165185oldid=2156716
- my volunteer account at the time- read the disclaimer/announcement

Shijus's staff account -http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shiju  and
volunteer account -  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shijualex
Subha's staff account http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Subha_WMF  and
volunteer accoun t-  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Psubhashish

They all have disclaimers, and explanation that this work is separate from
staff work. It's a pretty clean and simple staff policy, that I have
discussed with Philippe in the past.

This might be harder to do in offline work, but there should be some
attempt at demarcation like on-wiki. Their volunteer work and standing will
never go away, no one remotely suggested that. Just that, like on-wiki,
there should be better communication about which is which, nothing more.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
parakara.gh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Errm Theo,
 Do remember that the India TRUST is DIFFERENT form the Chapter. It is from
 the WMF side and has absolutely NO relation with the Chapter.


lol I know Srikanth. My question was about its current legal status. Is it
independent? different or same as the chapter?

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham



On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:
 
 Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said supported.  
 Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under the aegis of the 
 Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we have provided 
 varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing presentation 
 material to interested community members to participating in these events.  
 
 Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than 
 simply supported.  For instance, when you say Supported the community to 
 get a venue in Guwahati University, it would help us understand more if you 
 could tell us how.

Please refer this mail

 
  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 Hi Pranav, 
 In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done which 
 event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs. 
 
 I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list out 
 the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and transparency 
 towards the community.
  
 Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community 
 member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me 
 and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika was 
 actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.  One 
 must not also forget that both Hisham  Nitika are also chapter members. 
 
 Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a 
 chapter/community volunteer.

Anyone who contributes - in whatever manner - is a community member.  All of us 
in the India Program team have the freedom to do whatever we want to in our 
free time.  fyi: all of us contribute in our personal, voluntary capacity as 
well as work for the movement in our official capacity.  fyi: it's not part of 
the job description.
 
 Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel 
 expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The 
 event is supported by Hisham  Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs 
 executive. 
 
 Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India 
 Programs.

Much water has flown beneath this bridge, but I am disappointed with the 
suggestion that someone becomes a former volunteer just because they join the 
India Program team.  See earlier point.

  
 
 I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others .. Should I 
 be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member or a 
 community member? 
 
 By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just... 
 volunteers.  Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and 
 hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with clarity. 
  Simply supporting something does not clarify the extent of their 
 involvement.

The work that we are doing is actually supporting communities.  The healthiest 
way of us doing our jobs is to work closely (and in most cases, individually 
with community members) and help them in various ways - and make sure that the 
individual community members are front and centre of the initiative - as is 
right.  As in the mail I shared earlier on Guwahati,  or indeed in the Nature 
of Support column on this page, we document them and share them through wider 
channels.  In other cases, they are discussed on village pumps or individual 
talk pages or on chats or whatever manner that the respective community member 
feels most comfortable - and we leave it at that.  A lot of our community 
members do not have the experience and confidence to engage publicly or take 
initiatives.  We will continue to work quietly with them.  

The purpose behind my monthly newsletter is to try and document a varied list 
of the things we do - not from the point of view of documenting every last 
detail - but to provide a summary and useful links. 

hisham

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

From the mail Hisham sent out a looong time ago, it seemed like an
independent entity.
Besides, do Indian laws permit for either a society or a trust to be a
subsidiary of another organisation?
I don't think so, but I leave it for The lawyer [Anirudh/ Gautam] to
respond.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
 Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
 work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
 staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?


 Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. I don't think anyone said
 anything to that effect so far. Just said volunteer and staff work is
 separate, not that it goes away or one negates the other. I completely
 agreed with Ashwin on the need for better demarcation.

 Here's some example-
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Theo_(WMF)   - my old contractor
 account- read the disclaimer

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ATheo10011diff=2165185oldid=2156716
 - my volunteer account at the time- read the disclaimer/announcement

 Shijus's staff account -http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shiju  and
 volunteer account -  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shijualex
 Subha's staff account http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Subha_WMF  and
 volunteer accoun t-  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Psubhashish

 They all have disclaimers, and explanation that this work is separate from
 staff work. It's a pretty clean and simple staff policy, that I have
 discussed with Philippe in the past.

 This might be harder to do in offline work, but there should be some
 attempt at demarcation like on-wiki. Their volunteer work and standing will
 never go away, no one remotely suggested that. Just that, like on-wiki,
 there should be better communication about which is which, nothing more.

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
 parakara.gh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Errm Theo,
 Do remember that the India TRUST is DIFFERENT form the Chapter. It is
 from the WMF side and has absolutely NO relation with the Chapter.


 lol I know Srikanth. My question was about its current legal status. Is it
 independent? different or same as the chapter?

 Regards
 Theo



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Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hisham



On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:

 
 
 We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our 
 decision.  
 

Who is we?  

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:

On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:

Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said
supported. Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under
the aegis of the Chapter and sometimes independently. The support that we
have provided varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing
presentation material to interested community members to participating in
these events.

Can this be clearly specified in the report? That is more helpful than
simply supported. For instance, when you say Supported the community
to get a venue in Guwahati University, it would help us understand more if
you could tell us how.

Please refer this
mailhttp://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2012-January/006599.html

Thanks for the link, Hisham. Can you please have you staff include a
summary along with the appropriate links? Thanks.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Pranav,
In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done
which event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs.

I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list
out the work done in specific. This enhances our accountability and
transparency towards the community.

Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community
member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me
and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika
was actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.
One must not also forget that both Hisham Nitika are also chapter
members.

Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a
chapter/community volunteer.

Anyone who contributes - in whatever manner - is a community member. All
of us in the India Program team have the freedom to do whatever we want to
in our free time. fyi: all of us contribute in our personal, voluntary
capacity as well as work for the movement in our official capacity. fyi:
it's not part of the job description.

Yes, no one has disputed community membership. But when an employee/paid
contractor edits during work hours or within the purview of their
contractual agreement with the Foundation, that is paid and not volunteer
work. This is not something I enjoy pointing out over and over again, but
perhaps you should try and see where I am coming from.

Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel
expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The
event is supported by Hisham Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs
executive.

Fact: Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India
Programs.

Much water has flown beneath this bridge, but I am disappointed with the
suggestion that someone becomes a former volunteer just because they join
the India Program team. See earlier point.

I think you will find that I have clarified myself above, if you care to
read. Even then, a paid consultant spending their free time doing
volunteer work can still not be equated with a regular volunteer
contributor. This is not a condemnation, but a statement of fact.

I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others ..
Should I be worrying whether I am doing as a chapter member, board member
or a community member?

By a matter of principle, chapter and community volunteers are just...
volunteers. Paid consultants are hired to executive specific programs, and
hence the results of their work and reports should be presented with
clarity. Simply supporting something does not clarify the extent of
their involvement.

The work that we are doing is actually supporting communities. The
healthiest way of us doing our jobs is to work closely (and in most cases,
individually with community members) and help them in various ways - and
make sure that the individual community members are front and centre of the
initiative - as is right. As in the mail I shared earlier on Guwahati, or
indeed in the Nature of Support column on this
pagehttp://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Outreach_Programs/Outreach_Sessions/Feb,
we document them and share them through wider channels. In other cases,
they are discussed on village pumps or individual talk pages or on chats or
whatever manner that the respective community member feels most comfortable
- and we leave it at that. A lot of our community members do not have the
experience and confidence to engage publicly or take initiatives. We will
continue to work quietly with them.

The purpose behind my monthly newsletter is to try and document a varied
list of the things we do - not from the point of view of documenting every

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Theo,

* Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. *

I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
Foundation 2010-2011
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals
*
 I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. *

Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to people
like Shiju and Subhashish.

As I have clearly explained earlier, such a segregation is only possible in
virtual user accounts, not in real world action. If you want know, come do
the donkey work !

-TC





On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Theo10011 de10...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
 Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
 work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
 staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?


 Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. I don't think anyone said
 anything to that effect so far. Just said volunteer and staff work is
 separate, not that it goes away or one negates the other. I completely
 agreed with Ashwin on the need for better demarcation.

 Here's some example-
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Theo_(WMF)   - my old contractor
 account- read the disclaimer

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ATheo10011diff=2165185oldid=2156716
 - my volunteer account at the time- read the disclaimer/announcement

 Shijus's staff account -http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shiju  and
 volunteer account -  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Shijualex
 Subha's staff account http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Subha_WMF  and
 volunteer accoun t-  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Psubhashish

 They all have disclaimers, and explanation that this work is separate from
 staff work. It's a pretty clean and simple staff policy, that I have
 discussed with Philippe in the past.

 This might be harder to do in offline work, but there should be some
 attempt at demarcation like on-wiki. Their volunteer work and standing will
 never go away, no one remotely suggested that. Just that, like on-wiki,
 there should be better communication about which is which, nothing more.

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:46 PM, Srikanth Ramakrishnan 
 parakara.gh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Errm Theo,
 Do remember that the India TRUST is DIFFERENT form the Chapter. It is
 from the WMF side and has absolutely NO relation with the Chapter.


 lol I know Srikanth. My question was about its current legal status. Is it
 independent? different or same as the chapter?

 Regards
 Theo



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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Tinu Cherian

Dear Anirudh,
Can you elaborate as to what you meant by we ?

-TC

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:



 On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:46 PM, Anirudh Bhati wrote:



 We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
 decision.


 Who is we?

 hisham

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Tinu, respectfully, your argument for inability to segregate roles does not
hold water.

In the mean, cold harsh world of legalese, things like demarcation of
roles, disclosures, incompatibility of holding conflicting appointments,
having code of ethics are all normal and these instruments in fact are
found inadequate and there is now clamour for more oversight not less.

We have to have a code of ethics for the WMF employee - they must remain
true to their salt to the organisation which pays them. While it is nice
that good people like Shiju are always as helpful as they were as community
volunteers, the simple fact is that there has been a change of role. We see
them as paid employees which is a fact. We do not mean that as a derogatory
term but that is what they chose to be - paid. So volunteer activities must
only be done in a way that does not conflict with their employer. There is
a great obligation for them to do this. They cannot and should not act as
community because it means the setting up of COI with their employer. They
owe it to their employer. They cannot hunt with the hare and run with the
hounds all at once.

The chapter has volunteer teams - like communication etc. I'm sure it is
okay and desirable for Noopur, Shiju etc to be part of them and assuming
good faith, I'm sure they are not intending any wrong thing. But COI can
easily arise if one is not painstakingly correct and careful. For that
reason, I suggest that the WMF employees on any team be demarcated as
WMF-IP representatives - so that there is a clear-cut understanding of who
is a volunteer and who is not and those who are not volunteers are expected
to be suitably circumspect in their participation when policy is sought to
formed by discussion in the community - that is the price they have to pay
for choosing a paid job from WMF.

The way I see it, some people say Chapter is independent from WMF but that
can only happen if their funding is independent. Whoever pays the piper
chooses the tune. WMF is gracious not to interfere much with Chapter, I
assume they are not interfering at all, but that is because of their
goodness or choice. Should WMF become dictatorial, Chapter has to kowtow or
face the consequences. So like it or not, chapter/WMF are related
organisations which are in the same field with objectives of their own. COI
will arise, you cant prevent it, only resolve it in good ways by having
good policy, good communication and sensible interaction.

We have enough turbulence in the system already. Questions like cost
effectiveness of WMF driven activities as compared to that of volunteer led
activities are taken as personal attacks by one side and as righteous
crusades by the other. IEP 2 will soon be open us - heaven forbid! The
Global South program is just gaining momentum and the amount of attention,
money, effort being put into India programs is going to increase not
reduce. The coming about of the Trust is going to complicate issues - I
cant even think how to handle that time-bomb! At the same time, the demand
is growing; more editors are volunteering. Each Wikipedia is inflating,
some explosively, others with bits and spurts,some are sill-born.

In such a backdrop, more prudence and probity are the need of the hour.
More transparency, not more laissez faire. More care, not more chalta hai.

We have to make it our business to be above board in whatever we do. Imho
COI is by far the easiest to solve - there are greater challenges out there
for us to tackle  - things which really matter, like the hundreds of
thousands of school children waiting for Offline Wikipedia for Indian
Schools!

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 And to add

 That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on their
 user pages, demarcating this very difference.

 This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or
 writing mails. Not in real life work !

 I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the
 chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live and
 breathe Wikimedia, making it difficult to separate on which capacity each
 of our action is.

 You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
 Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
 work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
 staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?

 -TC




 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:14 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 If it matters, if you have read the MoA or the Chapters agreement of the
 Wikimedia India Chapter or most of the chapters, the Foundation and
 Chapters are independent organizations. Wikimedia Foundation is NOT a
 parent organization of the Wikimedia India Chapter.

 IMHO, It would be only a conflict of interest if I am both a paid

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 Theo,

 * Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. *

 I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
 Foundation 2010-2011
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals

 *
  I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. *

 Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to people
 like Shiju and Subhashish.


does that mean all the volunteer work you would have done before/after or
during being a full time and paid staff of Foundation cease to have any
value ?

When did I say their work is not valued?  The employees of the WMF do
valuable work, they are not volunteers.  Is saying this a devaluation of
their work?  Please be careful when attributing claims such as these.
 Thanks.

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Tinu Cherian tinucher...@wikimedia.in
 wrote:

 Dear Anirudh,
 Can you elaborate as to what you meant by we ?


My statement: We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community
about our decision.

I referred to we as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please note
that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply said
that this will be discussed.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:

 Theo,

 * Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. *


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 You are a long time community member, you were working as Wikimedia
 Foundation paid contractor for some time, does that mean all the volunteer
 work you would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid
 staff of Foundation cease to have any value ?


This is what I was referring to, Implying that the volunteer work you
would have done before/after or during being a full time and paid staff of
Foundation cease to have any value. I really don't see a single mention
that shiju or anyone's work ceases to have value. He was, is, and will be
a well respected community member. I have said that in the first thread.
Currently, he is an employee, and justly, official reports from WMF should
reflect the work he does as an employee, that is all.


 I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
 Foundation 2010-2011
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals


Yes thank you. I don't think I have ever denied being a
contractor.anywhere.(BTW that page is only for people who declare their
contract-work, there is large majority who is not there.) I know you like
to point to it, but you and shiju also received a grant for a project at
the same time, does you insinuation follow? should I add a link to it every
time discussions like this come up, or is it enough to just assume good
faith with your fellow community member? I have been trying for my part.

*
  I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. *

 Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to people
 like Shiju and Subhashish.


I have read them at least a dozen time. I can't see the insinuation you are
extracting from it. It only says to carry the same demarcation well
respected and followed on-wiki, nothing more. If you think that it's not
important, you should ask WMF to change staff policy, he was suggesting
applying the same internal standards.



 As I have clearly explained earlier, such a segregation is only possible
 in virtual user accounts, not in real world action. If you want know, come
 do the donkey work !


This might be true and I said it is hard to do, but some attempt should be
made to try, at least. I do my own type of volunteer work, I don't question
yours, please don't question mine.

Again, Ashwin puts it eloquently, more prudence and probity are the need
of the hour. More transparency, not more laissez faire. - I completely
agree.

Regards
Theo
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Right on, Pradeep!

Hence my detailed views on my own responsibility as WikiProject India lead.

Warm regards,

Ashwin Baindur
--


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Pradeep Mohandas pradeep.mohan...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 hi,

 I also think a similar demarcation is needed in chapter and community
 functions. Chapter leadership should also not be imposed on the
 community. I am not saying this is happening, just that such
 demarcation will help.

 I hope the Chapter discusses this overlap as well.

 Pradeep
 Handheld

 On 07/03/2012, Ashwin Baindur ashwin.bain...@gmail.com wrote:
  Tinu, respectfully, your argument for inability to segregate roles does
 not
  hold water.
 
  In the mean, cold harsh world of legalese, things like demarcation of
  roles, disclosures, incompatibility of holding conflicting appointments,
  having code of ethics are all normal and these instruments in fact are
  found inadequate and there is now clamour for more oversight not less.
 
  We have to have a code of ethics for the WMF employee - they must remain
  true to their salt to the organisation which pays them. While it is nice
  that good people like Shiju are always as helpful as they were as
 community
  volunteers, the simple fact is that there has been a change of role. We
 see
  them as paid employees which is a fact. We do not mean that as a
 derogatory
  term but that is what they chose to be - paid. So volunteer activities
 must
  only be done in a way that does not conflict with their employer. There
 is
  a great obligation for them to do this. They cannot and should not act as
  community because it means the setting up of COI with their employer.
 They
  owe it to their employer. They cannot hunt with the hare and run with the
  hounds all at once.
 
  The chapter has volunteer teams - like communication etc. I'm sure it is
  okay and desirable for Noopur, Shiju etc to be part of them and assuming
  good faith, I'm sure they are not intending any wrong thing. But COI can
  easily arise if one is not painstakingly correct and careful. For that
  reason, I suggest that the WMF employees on any team be demarcated as
  WMF-IP representatives - so that there is a clear-cut understanding of
 who
  is a volunteer and who is not and those who are not volunteers are
 expected
  to be suitably circumspect in their participation when policy is sought
 to
  formed by discussion in the community - that is the price they have to
 pay
  for choosing a paid job from WMF.
 
  The way I see it, some people say Chapter is independent from WMF but
 that
  can only happen if their funding is independent. Whoever pays the piper
  chooses the tune. WMF is gracious not to interfere much with Chapter, I
  assume they are not interfering at all, but that is because of their
  goodness or choice. Should WMF become dictatorial, Chapter has to kowtow
 or
  face the consequences. So like it or not, chapter/WMF are related
  organisations which are in the same field with objectives of their own.
 COI
  will arise, you cant prevent it, only resolve it in good ways by having
  good policy, good communication and sensible interaction.
 
  We have enough turbulence in the system already. Questions like cost
  effectiveness of WMF driven activities as compared to that of volunteer
 led
  activities are taken as personal attacks by one side and as righteous
  crusades by the other. IEP 2 will soon be open us - heaven forbid! The
  Global South program is just gaining momentum and the amount of
 attention,
  money, effort being put into India programs is going to increase not
  reduce. The coming about of the Trust is going to complicate issues - I
  cant even think how to handle that time-bomb! At the same time, the
 demand
  is growing; more editors are volunteering. Each Wikipedia is inflating,
  some explosively, others with bits and spurts,some are sill-born.
 
  In such a backdrop, more prudence and probity are the need of the hour.
  More transparency, not more laissez faire. More care, not more chalta
 hai.
 
  We have to make it our business to be above board in whatever we do. Imho
  COI is by far the easiest to solve - there are greater challenges out
 there
  for us to tackle  - things which really matter, like the hundreds of
  thousands of school children waiting for Offline Wikipedia for Indian
  Schools!
 
  Warm regards,
 
  Ashwin Baindur
  --
 
 
  On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:38 PM, CherianTinu Abraham
  tinucher...@gmail.comwrote:
 
  And to add
 
  That is why they have two accounts and rather large disclaimers on
 their
  user pages, demarcating this very difference.
 
  This is only possible in virtual worlds, while editing Wikipedia or
  writing mails. Not in real life work !
 
  I cannot have one face or voice when I am acting as board member of the
  chapter and another when I am helping the community. Many of us, live
 and

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Srikanth Lakshmanan

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 15:45, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at the
 end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion.  For instance, I
 wouldn't claim that Shiju's indisposition towards me is the official stance
 of his employer.


Tip for the staff/chapter folks, (to those who wish to hear)

Can you subscribe to the list with official IDs (with no mail option) and
configure mail clients (Gmail has a nifty option) and send mails
accordingly? For instance, Tinu / Anirudh need not repeat they are replying
in personal note always if they chose to reply from wikimedia.in email IDs
for their statements as chapter representatives. In other cases it will be
by-default considered as personal/voluntary statements, after all this list
is for volunteers/community!.

HTH.

-- 
Regards
Srikanth.L
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Tinu Cherian

*
*Dear Anirudh,*

**Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at
the end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion. *
*We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
decision.*
*I referred to we as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please
note that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply
said that this will be discussed. *

If you are expressing your view as a Chapter Board Member, please state so.
( The rest cannot differentiate when you are replying from your personal
id).  I wish you had stated instead I will discuss this with the rest of
the EC or Chapter members.

Having said that, the chapter doesn't impose our decision on the community
or the India Programs, Although I personally see Chapter as a subset of the
larger community.

Regards
Tinu Cherian




On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 Theo,

 * Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. *

 I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
 Foundation 2010-2011

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals

 *
  I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. *

 Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to
 people like Shiju and Subhashish.


 does that mean all the volunteer work you would have done before/after
 or during being a full time and paid staff of Foundation cease to have any
 value ?

 When did I say their work is not valued?  The employees of the WMF do
 valuable work, they are not volunteers.  Is saying this a devaluation of
 their work?  Please be careful when attributing claims such as these.
  Thanks.

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Tinu Cherian tinucher...@wikimedia.in
  wrote:

 Dear Anirudh,
 Can you elaborate as to what you meant by we ?


 My statement: We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community
 about our decision.

 I referred to we as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please note
 that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply said
 that this will be discussed.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:18 PM, Tinu Cherian tinucher...@wikimedia.inwrote:

 *
 *Dear Anirudh,*

 **Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at
 the end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion. *

 *We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
 decision.*
 *I referred to we as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please
 note that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply
 said that this will be discussed. *

 If you are expressing your view as a Chapter Board Member, please state
 so. ( The rest cannot differentiate when you are replying from your
 personal id).  I wish you had stated instead I will discuss this with the
 rest of the EC or Chapter members.

 Having said that, the chapter doesn't impose our decision on the community
 or the India Programs, Although I personally see Chapter as a subset of the
 larger community.


I did not express an opinion or a view.  Please look up the dictionary
definition.  I think we have had enough distractions from the main issue,
so let's burn the straw-man.

anirudh


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 Theo,

 * Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. *

 I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the Wikimedia
 Foundation 2010-2011

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals

 *
  I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. *

 Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to
 people like Shiju and Subhashish.


 does that mean all the volunteer work you would have done before/after
 or during being a full time and paid staff of Foundation cease to have any
 value ?

 When did I say their work is not valued?  The employees of the WMF do
 valuable work, they are not volunteers.  Is saying this a devaluation of
 their work?  Please be careful when attributing claims such as these.
  Thanks.

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Tinu Cherian tinucher...@wikimedia.in
  wrote:

 Dear Anirudh,
 Can you elaborate as to what you meant by we ?


 My statement: We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community
 about our decision.

 I referred to we as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please note
 that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply said
 that this will be discussed.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Subhashish Panigrahi

*57 mails to define the effort, for me be it voluntary/paid, effort for a
good cause is priceless, and the precious time everyone wasted could have
been utilized (not to be considered as a free gyan!) for something
constructive rather than this defensing act which will result just nothing,
the only thing I enjoyed is Achal's assessment!

*The subject says Community monthly report; it's not a place to define
who has taken the initiative and what is the exact percentage of support
foundation/chapter has provided to the community, it's rather a brief note
of what has happened in the community engagement activities,
foundation/chapter obviously has supported it. But, it's important to
access the outcome than to measure how much support in which way was
provided by foundation/chapter.

On 7 March 2012 18:18, Tinu Cherian tinucher...@wikimedia.in wrote:

 *
 *Dear Anirudh,*

 **Also, as long as I am not signing off with my official credentials at
 the end of the email, I am only expressing personal opinion. *

 *We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community about our
 decision.*
 *I referred to we as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please
 note that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply
 said that this will be discussed. *

 If you are expressing your view as a Chapter Board Member, please state
 so. ( The rest cannot differentiate when you are replying from your
 personal id).  I wish you had stated instead I will discuss this with the
 rest of the EC or Chapter members.

 Having said that, the chapter doesn't impose our decision on the community
 or the India Programs, Although I personally see Chapter as a subset of the
 larger community.

 Regards
 Tinu Cherian




 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:34 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.comwrote:

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:24 PM, CherianTinu Abraham 
 tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:

 Theo,

 * Err... I have no idea who or what implied that. *

 I am referring to your previous full time and paid work for the
 Wikimedia Foundation 2010-2011

 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors#Individuals

 *
  I don't think anyone said anything to that effect so far. *

 Look at the similar comments from Anirudh on this thread related to
 people like Shiju and Subhashish.


 does that mean all the volunteer work you would have done before/after
 or during being a full time and paid staff of Foundation cease to have any
 value ?

 When did I say their work is not valued?  The employees of the WMF do
 valuable work, they are not volunteers.  Is saying this a devaluation of
 their work?  Please be careful when attributing claims such as these.
  Thanks.

 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Tinu Cherian tinucher...@wikimedia.in
  wrote:

 Dear Anirudh,
 Can you elaborate as to what you meant by we ?


 My statement: We will discuss overlapping roles and notify the community
 about our decision.

 I referred to we as in the Executive Committee of the WMIN.  Please
 note that I did not express an opinion on the behalf of the EC, I simply
 said that this will be discussed.


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Hari Prasad Nadig

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.comwrote:

 Shiju, you and Subhashish have been volunteers but now you are paid
 contractors hired by the Foundation.  Any work you do within the purview of
 your contractual relationship with the Foundation will be work as a paid
 contractor and cannot be deemed to be the same as a volunteer. You can
 continue being volunteers once your contractual assignment is complete.  Is
 that so difficult to understand?


 You are totally wrong. That is the difference between your involvement
 with wikimedia movement and mine. My involvement with wikimedia movement
 will be there *even if this job is not there*. So just DO NOT compare
 your wikimedia contribution with mine. As a volunteer I will decide which
 all projects I need to work. Which means I still  continue to contribute to
 various wiki projects as a volunteer. I do not want your permission for
 that. Who had given you the authority to expel or exclude me from Wikimedia
 community?




 Let me ask you a basic question. Are you with wikimedia movement for
 helping it or for screwing it up. I was going through the replies and your
 wiki contributions over the past few months. What is your intention in
 being with Wikimedia movement in India.


Doesn't sound all that good, does it? Coming from *Shiju*, it does spring a
bit of surprise. Is this the ramification of volunteer turning into a
Wikimedia employee or contractor?

I feel that this personal attack was unwarranted, does not serve any good
purpose, and is rude. An apology is due, counting that people employed by
the 'India program trust' hold truly responsible posts.

The question about 'who's done what? or who's doing what?' is very
important in the present scenario as the Wikimedia India Programs trust is
well funded, has full time phenomenally well paid operatives who's primary
focus is supposed to '*Support the community to further Movement objectives*'.
Being rude or evading detailed reports isn't helping this in any way.

And just saying we supported isn't going to help either. Explaining the
trust's role in each of the listed activities would surely help people from
this country when they're planning to donate during the next fundraiser as
well. When we get to see announcements doled out to multiple mailing lists
like spam, I don't see why detailed reports should be an hindrance?

I had personally brought up the concerns about the 'India Program Trust' in
an email to foundation-l way back in November:
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2011-November/070419.html

and it is deeply saddening there wasn't even a response to that by Hisham
or his team. Is this how the community is being dealt with?

-- 
Hari Prasad Nadig
http://hpnadig.net
http://twitter.com/hpnadig
http://flickr.com/hpnadig
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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Jyoti Prakash Nath

Dear Wikipedians,


        This is my
first mail to this list and I am from the Assamese Wikipedia Community, so 
please excuse me if made a mistake. My user name is jpnath008.


        Reading this
discussion I just feel the need to inform you about the growing development of
Assamese Wikipedia. The last year and the current year can be considered as
mile stones in the growth of As Wiki. At the end of the last year about 4 to 6
active editor join to the community and the result is 900 articles. The two
wikimeetups held at Guwahati and Tezpur university respectively able to attract
more than 10 people to the community. 


        The Guwahati
meetup is the first Assamese Wikipedia meetup. I faced many problems to find a 
suitable
place to arrange the meetup, because from the beginning I decided to make this
meeting like an workshop more than a meet. I contacted Guwahati university’s
concerned persons with this proposal but they were asking me about a formal
letter from the authority (for them it is Wikipedia authority). At the very
moment Mr. Shiju Alex come to help me and he contacted directly with the IT
department of the university. He made it so easy for me to arrange such a good
hall with projector and internet connection in free of coast. I specially 
targeted
the media people and the university students with some new interested people
were present at that meet. Therefore the need of a projector was must. There are
now 3 active administrators working very hardly and 18 editors including the
administrators in As Wiki. 


        Presently one
of the active member, Anjal Bora wrote an article on a famous Assamese magazine
“PRANTIK” about the Assamese Wiki, and now he is getting calls and emails from 
various
persons who are willing to contribute to As Wiki. I wrote an article for an
online e-magazine, for a news paper and a letter in answering the Anjal Bora’s
article and all this are waiting for publishing. We are expecting more active
people to join the community after this. I have some more plans to attract
Assamese people to join to the As Wiki. 
 
Regards
JyotiPrakash Nath
SSL-Guwahati
+919864917706




 From: Shiju Alex shijualexonl...@gmail.com
To: Wikimedia India Community list wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
Sent: Wednesday, 7 March 2012 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 
2012
 

I am replying to this mail as a Malayalam wikimedia community member.



Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India 
Programs.

What do you mean by this? I Shiju Alex is a Indic language wikipedian now 
close to 6 years. According to Mr. Anirudh (an EC member of India chapter) I 
am a former 
volunteer. is this is the official position of wikimedia India chapter? As a 
community member I require an explanation for this. 


Shiju Alex

(An Indic language wikipedian)








On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:11 PM, Anirudh Bhati anirudh...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:



Nothing is conducted solely by India Program - and hence I said supported. 
 Everything is conducted by the community - sometimes under the aegis of the 
Chapter and sometimes independently.  The support that we have provided 
varies - from getting the actual event fixed up to providing presentation 
material to interested community members to participating in these events.  


Can this be clearly specified in the report?  That is more helpful than 
simply supported.  For instance, when you say Supported the community to 
get a venue in Guwahati University, it would help us understand more if you 
could tell us how.


 On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 12:45 PM, CherianTinu 
Abraham tinucher...@gmail.com wrote:


Hi Pranav, 
In India, it is extremely difficult to hairline separate who has done which 
event. - Chapter, Community and WMF India Programs. 



I agree it's not possible to do that, but it is entirely possible to list out 
the work done in specific.  This enhances our accountability and transparency 
towards the community.
 
Let us take the case of the Trichy event, the request came to a community 
member Rsrikanth to the chapter. Nitika was actively involved along with me 
and Naveen. The chapter signed the MoU and supplied some goodies. Nitika was 
actively involved in coaching Sohan, a chapter member and Rsrikanth.  One 
must not also forget that both Hisham  Nitika are also chapter members. 


Fact: Nitika is a paid employee of the WMF India Programs and is not a 
chapter/community volunteer.
 

Another event in Chennai (Jaya eng college) , where Subha led, his travel 
expenses was reimbursed by the Chapter, Subha is a Chapter SIG Chair .. The 
event is supported by Hisham  Nitika too. Subha is also an India Programs 
executive. 



Fact:  Subhashish, former volunteer, and now paid consultant with India 
Programs.
 

I actively organize Bangalore Meetups and support several others

Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

Jyoti. this is brilliant indeed. I agree, community support is
something we expect from the foundation. Nitika helped me a lot last
month for a meetup.
Hari, if your mail was about Trust vs Society, I'm with you.
Shiju, as an English Wikipedia editor, I stand by Anirudh, his edits,
his role in setting up the chapter, and what he said.

-- 
Regards,
Srikanth Ramakrishnan.
Wikipedia Coimbatore Meetup on February 12th.
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Coimbatore
Aliens invaded Tamil Nadu, left their Spacship and now it is a Toll Plaza.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IVRCL-Vijayamangalam-Toll-Plaza.JPG

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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012

2012-03-07 Thread Sudhanwa Jogalekar

Hi,

Let me take the focus of discussions back to the report/s where it all started.


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:58 PM, Hisham his...@wikimedia.org wrote:


 On Mar 7, 2012, at 1:38 PM, Pradeep Mohandas wrote:


 In retrospect, I also understand the need for seperating the Foundation
 activities as well. I think it is best to either go for total seperation of
 community, chapter and Office or have general statements.


 The work that India Program is doing is integrally embedded in community
 building.  This means we work directly with interested community members
 across the world and with the Chapter.   I don't think a total separation is
 either practical or advisable.  We should obviously avoid taking the option
 of general statements - and we need to find a suitable island in between.

I was going through the report and also saw another page here:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/India_Program/Outreach_Programs/Outreach_Sessions/Feb
that gives listing of outreach sessions by IP.

Another page by chapter also shows outreach reports. It is on the main
page of wiki.

IP and Chapter are having more or less similar functions. They do
similar outreach efforts and have same people in some functions.

Somehow, the reports from IP as well has chapter has about 9 entries
each for outreach program and only 2 are common !!

One of them is the now famous NITT academy and the other one is GNUnify.
I was surprised to see only the English academy entry in GNUnify that
was conducted by Ashwin and helped by IEP volunteers. The Marathi
academy conducted at the same lab immediately after the lunch break is
not mentioned at all. Also surprising was the entry where Moksh was
involved. Possibly, it was supported by some IP person.

General observation is that the report from IP shows the listing where
only the IP, IEP people were involved and the chapter report mentions
otherwise.

This clearly means that there is a disconnect. I dont see any of the
IEP/IP people joining the Pune community activities (except a few). In
fact, one of the outreach session (mentioned in the report) by the IEP
was not even mentioned on any of the lists.

Possibly, there is some polarisation somewhere and personally I feel
that it could be in favour of IP; simply because volunteers become
paid activists there.

Lets take a very much possible theoretical case(like the NITT, where
volunteers had bad experiences) where a volunteer goes for conducting
an academy and is not treated well and has bad facilities of
lodging/boarding/travel etc. And for the same academy, a person from
IP is also going and flies to/from the place and lives in a nice
hotel. In such case, where and how to compare the voluntary work v/s
paid staff work? The volunteer has spent his time and resouces for
hardly anything but the staff is being paid for the same activity as
part of the job.

Ashwin has hinted about evaluating voluntary efforts. Is there any
method to do it?

Community members are same for both- chapter as well as IP. However,
chapter is answerable to the community even when all the community
members are not necessarily chapter members. (just a technical point.
not to be emphasised), Whereas IP may not have any binding on anything
and still get all kind of funds from WMF.  And also hire people from
the community for doing the same work people were earlier doing
voluntarily. Also remember that chapter and the community members do
their work voluntarily and not get paid for it.

Well, just to clarify, I am not saying that community members, IP
staff and IEP volunteers are not doing work. They are really doing
fantastic work and that must to be appreciated. However, all those
efforts/work has to be taken in various perspectives mentioned in this
thread.

Best regards
-Sudhanwa


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Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] India Program: Community Monthly Report: Feb 2012