[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
PS. In reference to the original topic of this thread, I much prefer the DAC in my Bryston BP25DA (now BP26DA) over just the SB2 DAC. For headphone listening, I've been going back and forth between the SB3 DAC and the Headroom Desktop DAC, but in the end decided in favor of the SB3. (The Headroom Desktop Portable Amp itself is great, and its crossfeed circuit is a winner.) -- muski muski's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3670 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Thank's for the Big Ben tip - but now I've already bought or ordered most components for the media server so I'm sort of stuck with that. And then of course I'll get a convenient way of watching those .avi files that are such a nightmare to re-code for burning DVD's. Anyway the dCS gear; I got in at a good price for the Delius + Purcell. Second hand purchase, ok that was a lot of money but still much below half the new price. My previous equipment was all Linn (Karik + Numerik etc). I got the Delius first. When I switched in that - it was as if a new window into my CD's had opened. I expected a small-ish improvement, but it wasn't. I heard a lot of things I had never heard before, more bass, better imaging. Also a very annoying drift - like when you hear a very distinct instrument, say the triangle - playing and slightly moving from left to right. We know darn well that the guy isn't moving. That all disappeared with the dCS. Then I switched in the Purcell - that was a smaller improvement (when using CD's) but more with SB3 as source (probably because it re-clocks the signal very accurately, nearly as good as a central clock). The CD is clocked from the DAC so that's probably why that sounds a little bit better. I did some switch in / switch out tests with the Purcell and there was a difference, big enough so I wouldn't be without it now. The music widened with the Purcell. Example: Listening to three male voices singing, standing close together on the scene - with the Purcell I could clearly locate each individual. Without, they were all in the same spot, making it more difficult to follow the plot. There were more differences, more subtle better sound The dCS setup improves HUGHELY on CD's - and it works well for SACD's too. But the fact is that a good CD recording sounds almost as good as a SACD. I now hear much more difference between good and bad CD's than I ever did before. OK, that's it - and this is why I'm chasing the last bits with the SB3. If I get it spot on, I don't even need to keep my CD's. In fact, I'm so sure it will work, I'm already planning a sale over Ebay (and yes - of course I will destroy the backup copies 24 hours after the CD is sold). -- CarlOtto CarlOtto's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3581 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
...a major advantage to having a PC+soundcard is that with the dCS equipment I can rip SACD's to hard disk. With the soundcard (Lynx Two) I think I can only get a maximum of 96 kS/S on the digital inputs (not entirely sure there) but it is still pretty good. SB3 doesn't support this sample rate so for ripped SACD's I would need some other program for playback - but I'm sure that can be arranged. -- CarlOtto CarlOtto's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3581 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Hi! Well, I'm very pleased with my SB3. For the price, it is unbeatable. However, I would have loved an SB3 audiophile version which could be slaved to a word clock and with balanced digital output (AES-EBU). The PSU could possibly be upgraded but that is not as critical as long as we are still in the digital domain and if we have clock sync to the rest of the system. Obviously I don't care about the DAC - an audiophile version SB could be completely without DAC. I have a dCS system (Verdi transport, Delius DAC and a Purcell upsampler) and I have found myself using the SB3 (via upsampling) about 95% of the time. The difference is rather small compared to a CD from the Verdi (but then again, loading it with an SACD is a pretty large difference so I can't get rid of the transport yet). Anyway - I don't think Slim Devices will ever cater for the audiophiles (any further). They have done a good job for the mass market and it is even borderline high-end quality. So - I've just started a project with a media server PC. I've just bought a Lynx Two soundcard (which has word clock, AES-EBU in/out etc). Unfortunately that means I need something to put it in - i.e. a computer next to the stereo. So I found the Zalman TNN300 (Totally No Noise) - a fanless PC chassis. I will simply design a PC with this and the soundcard as a base. I was delighted to find that you could simply synchronise 2 SqueezeBoxes, so I can slave a SoftSqueeze to the physical SB3. That means I can still use the SB3 and the remote to control the music - but in fact it is the SoftSqueeze and the professional sound card that will be connected to the hifi, SB3 will only be the interface. By servicing the SoftSqueeze (i.e. using one of many programs to convert SoftSqueeze into a windows service) I can get it to start automatically so I never need to log on to the media server (don't like Windows here, but the Lynx hasn't got Linux drivers). This will cost around $2000-3000 to implement and that is basically the cost of getting a word clock and balanced interconnection to the SB3. OK, I'll get the spin-off of using the same server for video to our TV so it isn't too bad. It is all much cheaper than a high end transport anyway so I don't complain. It's just a pity they couldn't put the right gear into the SB3 from scratch, that would cost only a fraction of this. But I accept the mass market thing...SB3 is still the neatest interface I've seen and I will use it as that (only). -- CarlOtto CarlOtto's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3581 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Why go to all this trouble for such a seemingly small amount of improvement? I understand spending a lot on speakers and even amplifiers, but to spend that much money on the dCS gear? I just don't see how it is justified, unless you're so loaded that it doesn't really matter. Is it only for SACD's? -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
CarlOtto Wrote: Well, I'm very pleased with my SB3. For the price, it is unbeatable. However, I would have loved an SB3 audiophile version which could be slaved to a word clock If you don't want to do your own word clock mod (e.g. a simple way to do it is to take an Apogee Big Ben and use it to generate a 256x superclock in place of the SB's oscillator) the folks at http://www.db-system.ms/ do a word clock input for the SB - do a search on the posts of Michel Fombellida. Mike -- reeve_mike reeve_mike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=995 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
reeve_mike Wrote: If you don't want to do your own word clock mod [e.g. a simple way is to take an Apogee Big Ben and use it to generate a 256x superclock (synced from the dcs stack) in place of the SB's oscillator] And of course, if you are willing to use the SB's oscillator, you can use the Big Ben to derive a word clock from the SB's output (by passing it through the Big Ben on the way from the SB to the Purcell) and then use the word clock outputs of the Big Ben to clock the Purcell and the Delius - this way you don't need to 'pop the lid' of your SB. -- reeve_mike reeve_mike's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=995 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I run my SB2 into the digital input of my Cary 303/200 player. It is clearly better sounding than using the analog outs on the SB2, but then it should be as it cost me about 5x the cost of the SB2. -- rblnr rblnr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4504 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
The picture on the website clearly shows the Pb symbol on the battery warning label. -- crooner Squeezebox 3 with Power One Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC60 tube DAC Pioneer SX-1980 Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Vandersteen 2W crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
crooner Wrote: Akwok's picture (reproduced below) clearly shows the Pb symbol on the battery warning label. I believe it was made that way for easy replacement after the battery eventually dies in a few years. The battery can be found anywhere for $20. By the way.. how did you attach the image? I'm unable to on these forums. -- akwok akwok's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2298 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Man that's one beautiful DAC. I guess the relatively large battery necessitates the extra depth and height of the enclosure. It reminds me of the Sony SCD-1 SACD player. -- crooner Squeezebox 3 with Power One Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC60 tube DAC Pioneer SX-1980 Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Vandersteen 2W crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
crooner Wrote: Man that's one beautiful DAC. I guess the relatively large battery necessitates the extra depth and height of the enclosure. It reminds me of the Sony SCD-1 SACD player. Yep.. I think so. The battery eats up a good 1/3 of the enclosure.. heh. -- akwok akwok's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2298 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I currently purchased a very, very good DAC from Hong Kong; I previously owned the Benchmark and I prompty sold the Bench after lengthy A/B comparisons. It is a looker too. More info in my Head-Fi thread here: http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=168113 -- akwok akwok's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2298 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
akwok Wrote: It is a looker too, for $500 shipped. Battery operated, with a digital switch that charges when it's low on battery, and can run off the wall and charge at the same time. NOS design, 8x TDA1543 in parallel. Wow. I haven't wanted anything so badly since first seeing the Squeezebox. Good find! -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Just curious. I have a Derek Shek NOS DAC (the black box version). I don't suppose you've compared it to that? Also, did you consider the Zhaolu 1.3? What made you decide to go for the Storm? -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
akwok Wrote: I haven't tried the Derek Shek NOS DAC. Perhaps you should try the Storm and write up a review? :D I wish. If I hadn't upgraded every component in my system over the last several months (SqueezeBox, DAC, Passive Attenuators, Amp, Cables, Subwoofer), maybe I'd have the money :) Anyway, next time I upgrade DAC's, it's going to be one that is balanced, and I've read that NOS DACs can't be truly balanced. So, of course, I'm thinking about the Lavry DA10, or maybe the new Bel Canto DAC3 when that comes out. I was hoping it would be a couple of years before I get upgraditis again. Your DAC looks sweet though. Happy listening. -- ezkcdude SB3-Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC-MIT Terminator 2 interconnects-Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)-Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier-Speltz anti-cables-DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
That's a sweet looking DAC. I love my DAC-60s look and feel but that one is simply incredible! -- crooner Squeezebox 3 with Power One Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC60 tube DAC Pioneer SX-1980 Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Vandersteen 2W crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
One follow-up: I had a Lavry DA10 in-house for some six weeks. I sent it back for a repair, they are backordered, and now I'm getting a refund. I guess I can order another one down the line. Anyway, here's my take, having heard the Benchmark and, extensively, the Lavry in my house: I think the advantages of an ourboard DAC are minimal, especially once you consider the price. A thousand dollars is a thousand dollars and that buys a lot of CDs. Yes, there was some improvement -- some -- in imaging and clarity of minute sounds. Sometimes I could tell and sometimes I could not. (I had the analog outs going to one preamp input and the digital out to the DAC to another preamp input). Right now I'm living without an outboard DAC...and not really missing anything. Electronics by Bel Canto and Carver, speakers by Harbeth ($9,000 speakers at that). -- highdudgeon highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
highdudgeon Wrote: One follow-up: I had a Lavry DA10 in-house for some six weeks. I sent it back for a repair, they are backordered, and now I'm getting a refund. I guess I can order another one down the line. Anyway, here's my take, having heard the Benchmark and, extensively, the Lavry in my house: I think the advantages of an ourboard DAC are minimal, especially once you consider the price. A thousand dollars is a thousand dollars and that buys a lot of CDs. Yes, there was some improvement -- some -- in imaging and clarity of minute sounds. Sometimes I could tell and sometimes I could not. (I had the analog outs going to one preamp input and the digital out to the DAC to another preamp input). Right now I'm living without an outboard DAC...and not really missing anything. Electronics by Bel Canto and Carver, speakers by Harbeth ($9,000 speakers at that). Maybe the Lavry was defective, or maybe there are other colorations in your system making it hard to notice the external DAC differences. -- mauidan mauidan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1679 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Still can't report on this as the dealer had sent back the DAC to Chord as they had no interest in the Chord gear they had in stock. So - did listen to a Cyrus DAC-X and I won't be buying one. Not suprising as I listened to their CD8X CD player with the PSX-R psu and that went back to the dealer as I couln't live with it. Will keep trying (comments about the Benchmark DAC noted) Cheers Paul -- paulf1965 paulf1965's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4186 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Sorry, but none have made it down under yet. Shipping costs on 8kg don't help, but it's probably something people have to hear for themselves first. So far, everyone that has, has ordered one. There's one in a CSD2/NAC552/NAP500/DBL system which the owner is very pleased with. I don't know how much use the CDS2 gets these days! It's interesting the number of 'audiophiles' who can't quite get their head round the fact that they won't need a CDP too - but what's the point when the SB2+ is better AND more convienent? Briks work quite well in the summer I find - open all the doors and windows and listen in the garden. Who needs multi-room audio? ;-) -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
That is right my study system is doing duty at friends place who is in a separation. To hear music in the study I just crank up the main system. Amazing how the briks fill the house with music. I think the SB is quite revolutionary, not just the way we play cds but also the way we listen to the radio and the zillions of podcasts out on the net. I think commercial radio will suffer but it seems to be a medium made for the abc and bbc. For me the hard part is to see computer components in the same class as hifi components. While the 20yo 42.5/110 is still doing duty. I literally have 3 boxes full of obsolete computer bits that are only 5 years old. Shipping 8kg is not such a big deal. Most of us here have shipped in used gear from Europe, the UK or SE Asia. A friend brought over a home made hydra yesterday (he is a sparkie). A quick listen was very interesting. It seems to enhance the Naim sound. The band is really in your face and every note is slammed home by Mike Tyson. I'll have to do some proper cable dressing tonight and see if I can tame it a bit. -- gusi gusi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I was using cheapo optical in, plus Stereovox HDVX coaxial in and nice quality (but not audiofool) XLR cables out made from Van Damme/Neutrik bits. It is possible that the characteristic colorations of the 'briks are making it hard to notice the differences. In which case you shouldn't worry about the external DAC... I used to own a 52 and it is a great preamp. The 250 (which I also used to own) is fine too but the 'briks like lots of power and they are going to give you less distortion and better dynamics run active. But you would need two more stereo amps plus the Aktiv (sic) crossover. The arguments in favour of active operation are set out nicely on page 2 of the Aktiv manual: pdf: http://tinyurl.com/rewcr Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Andrew, I use identical cheapy din-rca leads and a reasonable diy bnc-rca coax. I tried the dac1 at a mate's house where we compared the xlr and rca outputs into a Belcanto/BW system. XLR was marginally better. I always thought that colouration meant that the sound gets changed in a certain way. Perhaps like an overpowering timbre. I never thought it would make all sources sound the same. I also own an LP12 and CDX. The difference between the CDX and the Dac1 is slightly bigger than the diff between the SB3 and the DAC1 but it is also pretty subtle. There are some ELAs in the junk room. I might have to pull them out for some stereo games. Failing that I'll get my ears dewaxed. ;-) cheers Gus Re the active thing, I have a naxo and an exposure crossover sitting in the cupboard waiting for more power amps. Thinking of a eVo6 or perhaps the 41Hz tripath amps... -- gusi gusi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Patrick. thanks for the offer but I live in Australia. I saw some of your posts in pfm. The SB2+ looks very intersting. Are there any in Perth? I was just very surprised to see how similar my sources sound. Perhaps the difference lies in soundstage and pratt etc. Another friend has a CDS2/52/135/briks, I might have to cary the dac1 over there. It will take a bit more listing, but as it is summer and 37deg at the moment the beach is more tempting than the launch. cheers Gus -- gusi gusi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
highdudgeon Wrote: I'm wondering how many people have done careful listening comparing the Squeezebox with and without a high-end external DAC? IE, is there much benefit to be gained? Little? None at all? Personally, I think it sounds quite good. I do have a re-clocking DAC on order. Comments, thoughts. Also, comments and thoughts on an external power supply? Worth it? And, surely, there must be a commercial unit available that would be cheaper than one of the audiophile versions (ie, Boulder, etc.). Yes, I have tried the SB3 with and without a good DAC and the difference is fairly clear in a revealing, highish end system (my speakers are $8,000 professional monitors). The Benchmark DAC1 was ahead of the analogue outputs of the SB3 in terms of detail retrieval and perceived depth/ solidity (hard to find the right words). For me the more interesting question was whether there is a difference between using a CD player as a transport and using the SB3 as a transport. I concluded that the answer was little or possibly none. See here: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showpost.php?p=77259postcount=19 Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
pfarrell Wrote: On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 22:22 -0800, Brad Smith wrote: I want to jump in here with a more beginner level question... Beginners always welcome. But be warned, this can be an adiction when you are referring to an external DAC, I assume you mean using the optical out to process it by another device, such as a receiver. When audiophiles talk about an external DAC, they mean an external box that just does Digial to Analog Conversion. Whether the optical or SPDIF wire is used is a separate issue. [snip] HTH -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html I think you mean optical or coaxial. SPDIF is a digital format, not a physical connection type. So both the optical and coaxial outputs are likely to be SPDIF format in most digital outputs on consumer electronics(there are other professional formats). Sorry to be picky. Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Andrew B. Wrote: I think you mean optical or coaxial. SPDIF is a digital format, not a physical connection type. So both the optical and coaxial outputs are likely to be SPDIF format in most digital outputs on consumer electronics(there are other professional formats). Sorry to be picky. Andrew My understanding is the S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interconnect Format) specifies a 75R coaxial cable and phono connectors. The optical version (which uses the same data formatting) was developed by Toshiba and is commonly called Toslink. But I'm happy to stand corrected. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
pfarrell Wrote: Phono or is it really supposed to be BNC? (since it is hard if not impossible to stay 75 ohm with RCA) IIRC it does say RCA - but as you say it's impossible to get 75R RCAs. I think in the early days of digital, they just didn't realise it mattered. Just like even today, some people think that jitter doesn't matter. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
pfarrell Wrote: Patrick Dixon wrote: I think you mean optical or coaxial. SPDIF is a digital format, not a physical connection type. So both the optical and coaxial outputs are likely to be SPDIF format in most digital outputs on consumer electronics(there are other professional formats). My understanding is the S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interconnect Format) specifies a 75R coaxial cable and phono connectors. The optical version (which uses the same data formatting) was developed by Toshiba and is commonly called Toslink. That was my understanding as well, I also could be wrong. Phono or is it really supposed to be BNC? (since it is hard if not impossible to stay 75 ohm with RCA) I am also pretty sure that the AES/EBU is essentially the same digital bitstream over XLR connected three wire cable. AESS/EBU obviously doesn't even have the silly consumer anti-fair use flags, but most consumer gear can be set to ignore those flags anyway. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html There is an explanation here: http://www.answers.com/topic/s-pdif S/PDIF is specified as an RCA connector but has an optical alternative also within the S/PDIF standard. The optical alternative is known as Toslink (Toshiba link) but uses the S/PDIF rather than the AES/EBU standard as far as the control bit is concerned. But it is common to call the RCA connector version of S/PDIF SPDIF and the optical connector version of S/PDIF Toslink. The more important difference is between AES/EBU (which has a much higher voltage electrical interface) and S/PDIF. Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
This thread got me thinking that I never gave the internal dac of the SB3 a fair go. So I hooked the SB3 analog out into the preamp as well and am able to flick between SB3 and dac1 with the push of a button. First impressions are that they sound pretty much the same. If there is a difference it must be very subtle, perhaps one is slightly brighter or has better staging, imaging or prat. I'll have to have a few more games over the next week. Admittedly I didn't use the balanced out on the dac1 which I found sounds slightly better in a previous test. I'll have to get a cable made up for it. I am using the standard (australian) powersupply for the SB3. The rest of the system is Naim 52/250 and Linn Isobariks. Gus -- gusi gusi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Andrew what cables did you use on the dac1? I am wondering if I am not getting the best out of my DAC1. I really couldn't hear a clear difference between it and the SB3. Perhaps a test at volume will be more revealing but that will have to wait till tomorrow as it is the middle of the night in Aus. cheers Gus -- gusi gusi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
rajacat Wrote: How does it sound? I'm interested in either the Paradisea or the Renaissance II from MHDTlabs to work in conjunction with the SB3. i will write something thorough once i do some blind tests and get some outside input. right at first, with no warm-up or break-in, i didn't notice much difference from my pioneer cdp's output. i *may* have heard a slight change in clarity, but it could possibly have been my imagination. i still haven't been able to do blind tests. now, i have let it play for a good 24h, and i've quickly listened to the difference of my SB3, CDPlayer, and the Paradisea. after warming up, the Paradisea gives a stronger sound than the SB3 and CDP. the voices sound slightly more present and natural and less tinny and like they're behind a curtain. the stereo is a little wider, giving space between individual sounds. i haven't tested with flac in a silent room with the same cables yet, but i plan to later this week, blind, with the help of a friend. i'll also recieve an audioquest vdm-5 spdif soon to compare with the bluejeans cable. -- gobikey ___ krell kav-400xi integrated amp vienna acoustics 'beethoven' speakers audioquest diamondback interconnects diy acoustic room treatment flac with accuraterip ___ gobikey's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3804 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
gobikey Wrote: to anyone interested, i ordered a MHDTLabs Paradisea last friday the 24th, and it's here! i'll write a review of what i *hear* when i get to hook it up. i also received my bluejeans digital cable today. woo! ___ krell kav-400xi integrated amp vienna acoustics 'beethoven' speakers * sb3 * audioquest diamondback interconnects diy acoustic room treatment flac with accuraterip ___ How does it sound? I'm interested in either the Paradisea or the Renaissance II from MHDTlabs to work in conjunction with the SB3. -- rajacat rajacat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4156 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
rajacat Wrote: How does it sound? I'm interested in either the Paradisea or the Renaissance II from MHDTlabs to work in conjunction with the SB3. Raja, just to be thorough, you may want to look at Derek Shek's NOS DAC on eBay. I bought one recently (you can search the other threads). Derek is great to deal with. When I first got the DAC, I accidentally fried it, trying to upgrade the power supply. I sent it back to him (Hong Kong!), and he was able to fix it. He didn't even charge me for it (except the shipping). I will be getting it later this week and setting it up with my new amp that's coming too. If you want to wait a week or so, I'll post my opinions about it. A few others that haunt this forum also have the Shek DAC. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
ezkcdude Wrote: Raja, just to be thorough, you may want to look at Derek Shek's NOS DAC on eBay. I bought one recently (you can search the other threads). Derek is great to deal with. When I first got the DAC, I accidentally fried it, trying to upgrade the power supply. I sent it back to him (Hong Kong!), and he was able to fix it. He didn't even charge me for it (except the shipping). I will be getting it later this week and setting it up with my new amp that's coming too. If you want to wait a week or so, I'll post my opinions about it. A few others that haunt this forum also have the Shek DAC. I couldn't find Derek's store on EBAY. Please provide a link. -- rajacat rajacat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4156 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Here's a pic next to my SB3. It really is just a black box, but that's kind of the charm, I think. +---+ |Filename: black_box.jpg| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=964| +---+ -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I could not hear any tangible difference between the analog outputs of the SB3 and running coaxial cable into the digital input on my Proton (privately labeled as Dynaco) 5.1 home theater integrated amp. It wasn't a terribly expensive amplifier - I bought it on Ebay at a closeout price over 3 years ago. Two weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to upgrade to a McIntosh MX-132 preamp/tuner. I've A/B'd the same source material numerous times, using the McIntosh decoders and the SB3s analog output. My conclusions? The SB3 sounds good. The McIntosh DAC sounds decidedly different, and in my opinion, better. Using the Mac's DAC, there's more space around instruments, a sense of ambience, is the best I can describe it. It's easy to hear - an opening of the sound stage. Also, strings and piano music sound less strained, sweeter and less harsh. Everything sounds more musical. Even on 128 kbps internet radio streams. I made sure that loudness, and tone controls were defeated for the test, so that I was making an equal comparison. I was pleasantly surprised - I honestly thought I wouldn't hear any difference and went into the comparison very skeptical. -- Cleve Two-channel system; McIntosh MC2205 amplifier McIntosh MAC4100 receiver Klipsch CF-4 speakers Denon DR-M3 Cassette Deck Cleve's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2048 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
to anyone interested, i ordered a MHDTLabs Paradisea last friday the 24th, and it's here! i'll write a review of what i *hear* when i get to hook it up. i also received my bluejeans digital cable today. woo! ___ krell kav-400xi integrated amp vienna acoustics 'beethoven' speakers * sb3 * audioquest diamondback interconnects diy acoustic room treatment flac with accuraterip ___ -- gobikey gobikey's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3804 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I got a great tip from a Toslink user, Victor Lee, at another audio forum ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). He soldered in a 0.1 uF ceramic cap between the 5V pin and the ground pin of the Toslink module of his SB1 and got much better sound. He found that there was no local filtering for the toslink transmitter of the SB1. I have SB2s and I have done the same treatment for it. The result was much smoother sound with clearer bass extension. I have no idea if the SB3 is equipped with the filtering or not, but if you are a SB3 user, you should check. I highly recommend this minor tweak to the Toslink users. Hiroyuki On Dec 2, 2005, at 12:58 AM, PhilNYC wrote: ezkcdude Wrote: So, which do you prefer? I've always heard that the coaxial output was better than toslink. I recently did an A/B test between a Wireworld SuperNova 5 glass toslink cable and an Acoustic Zen Silver Byte coax digital cable and strongly preferred the AZ Silver Byte. Deeper soundstage, more open sound, etc. A friend also did the same test in his system and preferred the Wireworld toslink; felt it had better pace and immediacy. So...personal taste has a lot to do with it... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com -- -- PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Hiroyuki Hamada wrote: I got a great tip from a Toslink user, Victor Lee, at another audio forum ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). He soldered in a 0.1 uF ceramic cap between the 5V pin and the ground pin of the Toslink module of his SB1 and got much better sound. He found that there was no local filtering for the toslink transmitter of the SB1. Sean, Any comment on the above? ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
PhilNYC Wrote: A good high end DAC is going to have a few advantages over the SB3. First and foremost, there is an opportunity to design a more sophisticated analog output; even from just a materials quality perspective, this is possible. Beyond that, power supply quality, physical isolation of circuits etc are things that a high end DAC can offer that the SB3 cannot. Comparing a high-end external DAC to the stock SB is unfair, IMHO. Full mods by Bolder or Red Wine Audio cost around $500, or about half of what a Benchmark costs, with more or less the same advantages but with less circuitry, less cabling, and higher-end passive parts in the modded SB. -- vdorta vdorta's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
What model are you suggesting? I'm not suggesting or recommending a specific model. There are in fact many contenders depending on one's taste. I own an example, but there are many more to be found. My point was that you don't have to spend a grand on a DAC to get a decent one. The DAC's I own are built by an engineer in Taiwan who builds under the label MHDT labs and sells via ebay. He builds non-oversampling DACs based on the 1543 and the 1545 chips. I own both the Digital Dialogue II and the Digital Renaissance which is similar, but has a pencil tube in the output section. Dialogue II: http://tinyurl.com/b5l88 It doesn't look like he has any Renaissance DAC's on sale now, but he has added other models to his lineup. And how do you compare it to the built in DAC in the SB3? wrt to the DAC the diff would be: Non-oversampling vs. oversampling. wrt to the difference in sound, I have not made a critical comparison. Right now I use the analog outputs from the sb3 in my room to feed a cheap 100wpc Pioneer receiver into Alesis Monitor Twos. I use the digital output into the Dialogue II and then into a Singlepower PPX3 into Senn HD600's. The headphone rig sounds wonderful. There are other regarded DAC's in the price range. Long list of DACs: http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=139906 (mhdt dac, moodlab dac) http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140074 Another DAC: http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=139545 -- dwc dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
pfarrell Wrote: On Wed, 2005-11-30 at 13:21 -0800, ezkcdude wrote: pfarrell Wrote: When audiophiles talk about an external DAC, they mean an external box that just does Digial to Analog Conversion. Whether the optical or SPDIF wire is used is a separate issue. So, which do you prefer? I've always heard that the coaxial output was better than toslink. I can't tell any difference at all. The Benchmark has a switch on the front to select inputs, so I ran both and flipped the switch. I can't hear any difference. YMMV -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html Pat you seem to be one of the more knowledgable and scientific audiophiles. I have auditioned the Benchmark DAC1 in a local showroom and it sounded very good to me. However with a very good listening room and good system I am sure everything sounds good. What I am wondering is, after living with Benchmark and the SB for a while, what magnitute of improvements do you hear in the Benchmark Vs a virgin SB2? I know Sean Adams does not seem to be able to hear big difference in the Benchmark DAC1. What is your opinion on this? Will upgrading to the DAC1 be similar to upgrading from a Japanese junk Turntable to a Linn Sondek? (Good old days). I did that before and it was a life changing experience. Curently I have a modest but resonably decent system with Naim Nait 5i and Celetion A-1/Harbeth LS3/5A and Pioneer Elite Universal Player. Like most SBers I listening to all kinds of music. I would appreciate your opinions on this, since you have been living with these two pieces of equipment. John -- agentsmith agentsmith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
On Thu, 2005-12-01 at 06:42 -0800, agentsmith wrote: pfarrell Wrote: The Benchmark has a switch on the front to select inputs, so I ran both and flipped the switch. I can't hear any difference. Pat you seem to be one of the more knowledgeable and scientific audiophiles. Thanks, It sometimes is a curse. See we are all engineers on http://www.pfarrell.com/farrell/us.html I have auditioned the Benchmark DAC1 in a local showroom and it sounded very good to me. However with a very good listening room and good system I am sure everything sounds good. Which gets to a critical point. Audio is clearly a place where the chain really is only as strong as the weakest link. You have to have serious speakers and room acoustics once you start tweaking. Or you won't be able to tell anything. Fixing room acoustics while keeping the WAF is hard. What I am wondering is, after living with Benchmark and the SB for a while, what magnitute of improvements do you hear in the Benchmark Vs a virgin SB2? I know Sean Adams does not seem to be able to hear big difference in the Benchmark DAC1. What is your opinion on this? My opinion is that there is a significant improvement that I can hear between my SqueezeBox 1/G direct and thru the Benchmark. But I don't have a SB2. So I can't answer your real question. The combination of a SB1 and Benchmark makes me happy. I've wired mine, so the network buffer and native flac support are not an issue. I've got $1200 in the SB1 + Benchmark and haven't had a spare $300 to pick up a SB2/3 Plus I'd rather squander the money on 25 or so more CDs. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
ezkcdude Wrote: So, which do you prefer? I've always heard that the coaxial output was better than toslink. I recently did an A/B test between a Wireworld SuperNova 5 glass toslink cable and an Acoustic Zen Silver Byte coax digital cable and strongly preferred the AZ Silver Byte. Deeper soundstage, more open sound, etc. A friend also did the same test in his system and preferred the Wireworld toslink; felt it had better pace and immediacy. So...personal taste has a lot to do with it... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
pfarrell Wrote: When audiophiles talk about an external DAC, they mean an external box that just does Digial to Analog Conversion. Whether the optical or SPDIF wire is used is a separate issue. So, which do you prefer? I've always heard that the coaxial output was better than toslink. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
ezkcdude Wrote: So, which do you prefer? I've always heard that the coaxial output was better than toslink. I have used both and can't really say that I hear any difference. Then again, my kit isn't up to the standard where it makes sense to compare optical and coaxial. Tom -- tomsi42 SqueezeBox2, Rotel RC-1070/RB-1070, DynaBel Exact. I can get used to this ;) tomsi42's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2477 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
On Wed, 2005-11-30 at 13:21 -0800, ezkcdude wrote: pfarrell Wrote: When audiophiles talk about an external DAC, they mean an external box that just does Digial to Analog Conversion. Whether the optical or SPDIF wire is used is a separate issue. So, which do you prefer? I've always heard that the coaxial output was better than toslink. I can't tell any difference at all. The Benchmark has a switch on the front to select inputs, so I ran both and flipped the switch. I can't hear any difference. YMMV -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
On Mon, 2005-11-28 at 22:22 -0800, Brad Smith wrote: I want to jump in here with a more beginner level question... Beginners always welcome. But be warned, this can be an adiction when you are referring to an external DAC, I assume you mean using the optical out to process it by another device, such as a receiver. When audiophiles talk about an external DAC, they mean an external box that just does Digial to Analog Conversion. Whether the optical or SPDIF wire is used is a separate issue. It usually does not mean a receiver, at least a mass market receiver. An example of a mass market receiver is the Sony that I use in my home theater. It does audio and video switching, converts AC3 using an optical link to 5.1, and includes 6 channels of 70 watt amplification. It cost about $400. The DAC in such a box is aimed at voices in dialog, some background music and wild explosions. Audiophile level quality is not in the design criteria. An audiophile DAC example is a Benchmark DAC-1, it costs $1000. You put digial in, and get stereo audio out. With it, you still need an amplifier. HTH -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Thanks for the reply, Pat. So in my situation, what would you recommend I do? Analog into the receiver, or just go the optical route? -- Brad Smith Brad Smith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2205 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Brad Smith Wrote: Thanks for the reply, Pat. So in my situation, what would you recommend I do? Analog into the receiver, or just go the optical route? I suggest you try them both, especially if you have the cables. If you can't hear any difference, choose the most convenient one, otherwise pick the one that you feel is right for you. Tom -- tomsi42 SqueezeBox2, Rotel RC-1070/RB-1070, DynaBel Exact. I can get used to this ;) tomsi42's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2477 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
On Tue, 2005-11-29 at 11:33 -0800, Brad Smith wrote: . So in my situation, what would you recommend I do? Analog into the receiver, or just go the optical route? I strongly recommend trying anything that doesn't cost much money and judge for your self. My guess would be that Sean's DAC will sound better, but there are too many variables. The cost of testing it is a couple of cables. Let us know what you find. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
tomsi42: if you're considering spending that amount of money, it would really be worth having a listen to a Cyrus Dac X if you can find a dealer locally. Multiple digital inputs mean you can also use it with tv, dvd etc. I also had an opportunity recently to listen to the Tact/Lyndorf TDA2150 digital amp, and suffice to say it was very impressive. This is starting to become some serious money though. -- bludragon bludragon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1530 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
bludragon Wrote: This is starting to become some serious money though. strongVery serious money indeed./strong I didn't find a Cyrus dealer here in Norway though. I can't afford that kit at the moment anyway, so I will have to wait. As the guy who brought the DAC is an Electrocompaniet dealer, we are already talking about doing a comparison between squeezebox + ECD-1 and the ECM-1 CD player. That should be fun... -- tomsi42 SqueezeBox2, Rotel RC-1070/RB-1070, DynaBel Exact. I can get used to this ;) tomsi42's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2477 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
While Vinnie (RWA) and Wayne (Bolder) make strong claims that the modified SB3's analog output sounds better than many expensive DAC's and transports, I think it is not fair to make this comparison. A separate high end DAC should sound significantly better than a modded SB3's analog out. I wouldn't mind hearing a modified SB3's analog outs, but chose to skip this because a) I already have a nice expensive DAC, and b) even including the mods, I would not seriously expect that the SB3 would have an adequately designed analog output stage, with proper isolation, power supplies, etc. Only if you removed the guts of the SB3 from the case, put it inside a better case with proper grounding, power supplies, and room for output caps, and perhaps had the option of a good tube output stage, would the comparison be realistic. But hey, if someone wants to bring their fully modded SB3 to my Seattle area house to A/B. I will listen. Instead, I'll be comparing the digital output of a modded SB3 to the digital output of an unmodded SB3, both sending S/PDIF to my musical fidelity DAC. For fun, I will do an A/B against my Pioneer Elite PD-S95 cd transport to see how well the $250 SB3 stacks up against the $3k Pioneer. Of course, if I added the cost of the computer (MAC Mini) and periperals, it would probably cost the same. -- davehg davehg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2269 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
If you haven't heard a SB2/3 with the modded analogue stage you're making a bold statement. I do have a RWA analogue modded SB2 and found they do speak the truth. Listen before you pronounce the mod dead. BTW, I wouldn't expect the SB2/3 with digital mods to be a huge improvement over a top quality transport. The analogue side is much easier to excell. Also, if you already own a decent PC a $100 300 gig hard drive and a simple network is all it takes to turn it into a music server. Less than $300 rather than $3000. Jim davehg Wrote: While Vinnie (RWA) and Wayne (Bolder) make strong claims that the modified SB3's analog output sounds better than many expensive DAC's and transports, I think it is not fair to make this comparison. A separate high end DAC should sound significantly better than a modded SB3's analog out. I wouldn't mind hearing a modified SB3's analog outs, but chose to skip this because a) I already have a nice expensive DAC, and b) even including the mods, I would not seriously expect that the SB3 would have an adequately designed analog output stage, with proper isolation, power supplies, etc. Only if you removed the guts of the SB3 from the case, put it inside a better case with proper grounding, power supplies, and room for output caps, and perhaps had the option of a good tube output stage, would the comparison be realistic. But hey, if someone wants to bring their fully modded SB3 to my Seattle area house to A/B. I will listen. Instead, I'll be comparing the digital output of a modded SB3 to the digital output of an unmodded SB3, both sending S/PDIF to my musical fidelity DAC. For fun, I will do an A/B against my Pioneer Elite PD-S95 cd transport to see how well the $250 SB3 stacks up against the $3k Pioneer. Of course, if I added the cost of the computer (MAC Mini) and periperals, it would probably cost the same. -- Jim Holtz Jim Holtz's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1456 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
davehg Wrote: While Vinnie (RWA) and Wayne (Bolder) make strong claims that the modified SB3's analog output sounds better than many expensive DAC's and transports, I think it is not fair to make this comparison. A separate high end DAC should sound significantly better than a modded SB3's analog out. I know that some audiophiles have sold their expensive digital components (a Linn CD12, for example) after trying a modded SB2. -- vdorta vdorta's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
davehg Wrote: A separate high end DAC should sound significantly better than a modded SB3's analog out. Modded or not, why do you believe this is so? -- seanadams seanadams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I want to jump in here with a more beginner level question... when you are referring to an external DAC, I assume you mean using the optical out to process it by another device, such as a receiver. I have a Denon 1905 receiver. Now would using it with the optical out on the SB3 be a better choice than using the analog out and setting the receiver to Direct (passes the signal straight through without sending it through the tone processing)? -- Brad Smith Brad Smith's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2205 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
i have to agree also i have a sb2 very impressed with it but the sound quility was good but couldn`t compare it to my cyrus cd7q + psx-r so tried the cyrus dac x + psx-r took it to a hole new level on par with the cd player so traded the cd player against the dac but would definitly be intersted how the power supply mods work out price etc -- bert bert's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2483 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I use a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista 21 DAC, and have a/b'd an unmodified SB3 against the DAC and a Pioneer Elite PD-S95 transport. I actually bought 2 SB3's; one to modify and one to place downstairs so the wife can listen. I think the sound of the stock SB3 into my system is good, but not as exceptional as the separate transport and DAC combo, which yields much more resolution, depth, and air. Swapping the transport with the SB3 shows that the Pioneer still has an edge, but the difference is closer, and a stock SB3 into the external DAC is really nice. I presume the difference is probably less to do with the DAC and more to do with the tube analog section of my Tri-Vista (plus its awesome regulated power supply). I am awaiting the Bolder Cable digital mod and power supply, and will A/B the two SB3's. My experience with Bolder mods previously (using an Art DIO)is that the power supply does make a big difference. See my music server blog at http://musicserver.blogspot.com for details of my current setup (Merlin TSM/REL Strata III, fed by a VAC Avatar SE, cabled by Acoustic Zen, and AC'd by Foundation Research). -- davehg davehg's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2269 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
The new lavry unit (due out in a couple of weeks) buffers the incoming stream and effectively does away with jitter.I think there's a degree of marketing BS that goes on with this stuff; you can't easily buffer two streams that have the same nominal rate but are asynchronous. Think of a bucket of water, with a hole in the bottom and a tap filling it at the top. If you start with the bucket half full (I'm an optimist), even if the tap is filling the bucket at exactly the same rate as the hole is emptying it, the bucket will eventually overflow or run dry. In the Real World (TM), you can never get the incoming and outgoing rate exactly the same. There are ways round this; you could reset the buffer between songs (difficult for a DAC), but actually, a SqueezeBox is just about the best buffer there is, because the input rate is dynamically adjusted to keep the buffer from under- or over- flowing. So you don't really need all this other BS stuff! -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Actually, while the Benchmark does trumpet (and performs) exceptional performance in terms of jitter management...my understanding is that it does not buffer the incoming stream. IE, it manages internal jitter. The new lavry unit (due out in a couple of weeks) buffers the incoming stream and effectively does away with jitter. The question, of course, is can we here this? Personally, I think the SB3 is just scary good and, at three hundred bucks, the most outrageous bargain in audio. -- highdudgeon highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
The disadvantage of using asynchronous clocks is that sooner or later you will have a buffer (FIFO) under- or over- run to deal with. Once that happens I don't think you have much alternative other than to either drop or repeat an audio sample. Using Xtals at 30ppm accuracy, you could still have up to 60ppm difference between them, which (if my maths is correct) is about 2.6 samples difference every second (assuming 44.1KHz samples). Surely repeating or dropping up to 2.6 audio samples per second would a) have a negative effect on the performance of an oversampling DAC's filters, and b) be audiable? So whilst the BM may be great on jitter imunity, does it suffer from a more fundamental (but even harder to measure) flaw? -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Patrick, you are right that this would be a serious problem, but it is taken care of by the AD1896: http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0,,765_807_AD1896%2C00.html This chip performs the 'upsampling' and continuously adjusts the multiplier it uses to compensate for any drift between the external and internal clocks. -- bludragon bludragon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1530 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Thanks for that, I'll have to look at it more closely, but I can't quite believe that wouldn't do something fairly horrible to the audio! -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
cliveb Wrote: The Benchmark DAC1 is immune to jitter because it sample rate converts everything it receives (upsampled to its internal maximum sample rate: 96 or 192kHz, depending on the vintage). This allows the upsampled data stream to be clocked out by the DAC1's own high-precision internal clock, which completely isolates it from any jitter on the incoming signal. Yes, but in order to upsample it, it will still need to synchronise it's upsampling clock(s) to the incoming signal - so it still must require a PLL. BTW the SB2/3s DAC oversamples - which is effectively the same technique as upsampling (although oversampling assumes integer ratios, which makes the digital filtering a bit simpler). Interesting too, that audiophiles are happy with the Benchmark approach of upsampling CD (44.1KHz) to 2x48KHz, but baulk at the idea of Roku upsampling 44.1KHz to 48KHz in their product! Personally, I think people get too hung up on the technology and forget to listen to the results, but hey what do I know, I'm only an engineer. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-view.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Patrick Dixon Wrote: Interesting too, that audiophiles are happy with the Benchmark approach of upsampling CD (44.1KHz) to 2x48KHz, but baulk at the idea of Roku upsampling 44.1KHz to 48KHz in their product! Personally, I think people get too hung up on the technology and forget to listen to the results, but hey what do I know, I'm only an engineer. It's not a matter of can you hear it. One of the core advantages of digital is fidelity. Why rate convert a digital signal when it's essentially unnecessary? As far as I know, the benchmark supports 44.1 natively. -- jhwilliams jhwilliams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1876 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
What are the disadvantages?Well the main one is that an external DAC requires a PPL to lock it's own clock to the incoming DATA signal. Even if you feed the transport clock over to the DAC, you still have the effect of the interconnect and distance to deal with. In the 'good old days' of turntables, Linn used to advocate their belt drive LP12 against the Japanese manufacturers' Direct Drive, crystal locked, decks by saying something along the lines that the cystal locked ones didn't have the same speed stability because they require a degree of 'hunting' to make them work. A phase locked clock is effectively doing the same (although the amounts are very tiny). Well not having a Wifi component sitting beside the DAC would be an advantage. I'm not sure how far away you can get your deck from the SB, but I suspect that RF is present thoughout your house anyway. Besides, you can always use a wireless SB ;-) Dedicated DACs have very specific analog and digital paths. Particularly the power supply and division of components will be deliberately discrete.No reason why you can't do that with a SB - I have and it works really well. AFAICS, there are only two advantages in a external DAC 1) If you have multiple digital sources and you use the DAC after digitally switching or processing those sources. 2) To allow for changes of DAC for different audio 'tastes'. -- Patrick Dixon www.at-view.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
jhwilliams Wrote: As far as I know, the benchmark supports 44.1 natively. My understanding is that this is not the case. The DAC1 upsamples everything to 96kHz (old version) or 192Khz (newer versions). -- cliveb cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Patrick Dixon Wrote: :-) :-) You can't hear frequencies above 20KHz - are you suggesting that audio systems should reproduce them too? If so, then you must be sadly disappointed with CD ... Well, no, but said system should at least try and maintain digital fidelity. So, yes, from that perspective redbook is a little disappointing :-) -- jhwilliams jhwilliams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1876 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Ahh, so you're a purist ... as well as having sharp hearing! -- Patrick Dixon www.at-tunes.co.uk Patrick Dixon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=90 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
IMO current DAC's will be redundant in 5 years, not because of better DAC's, but because of digital amplifiers. Squeezebox will most likely have an (optional) integrated digital amp. Digital amps will also have HDMI inputs, which will support copy protection (HDCP I think they're calling it). As for frequency response of CD's, the problem of limiting them to 44kHz sample rates is the extreme filtering required to remove artifacts above 20kHz. Oversampling does this filtering in the digital domain. Upsampling (per my understanding) allows some artifacts through. e.g. 44kHz upsampled to 96kHz will create artifacts in the 20-40kHz region. It will then be oversampled to get rid of the higher frequency artifacts. This may sound better for the following reasons - firstly, it moves the harsh filtering futher away from the audible region, secondly, the artifacts approximate energy that was originally there, and whilst we can't hear this directly, it may affect our perception of sound below 20kHz. EDIT: probably more importantly than either of the above 2 points is that the artifacts introduced by upsampling help to 'even out' errors in the DAC. -- bludragon bludragon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1530 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Patrick, Yes, but in order to upsample it, it will still need to synchronise it's upsampling clock(s) to the incoming signal - so it still must require a PLL. The Benchmark uses an AD1896 and upsamples asynchronously, the incoming clock is not used at all beyond the AD1896, there's a local clock that totally determines the jitter performance at the DAC. Everything is upsampled to 110kHz then fed to an AD1853 DAC, the ASRC acting as the de-jitter process. Of course the internal clock has to be low jitter (which it appears to be, from the measurements I've seen). Andy. -- Andrew L. Weekes Andrew L. Weekes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=573 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
highdudgeon Wrote: I have a new Lavry DAC - which, unlike benchmark, re-clocks incoming signal -- and I'm curious to see what the difference will be. I do know that, with a CD player, the difference is night and day.- ? The Benchmark DAC1 reclocks. From what I've read it's one of the best DACs around when it comes to jitter. From the reviews I've read the Benchmark and Lavry da2002 should be able to go toe to toe (Stereophile has one I believe). Clearly the Lavry will have a bit of an edge. highdudgeon Wrote: Of course, the cost/benefit curve is rather steep... That's always a good point. Everything is always moving in the audio world, but I think the one component you dont want to drop too much on (personally) is the DAC - if only because the technology is advancing so quickly. I friend of mine has a slightly older Meridian transport and DAC. I can confidently put my SB2 and Benchmark (yes, and the SB2 solo) up against it. In a couple of years I fully expect a DAC that blows the Benchmark away for half the price. So with that in mind the Benchmark was the right performance/price tradeoff for me at the moment. If was in the position of having a SB2/3 and a few grand budget, I'd certainly drop all that into the amp and speakers. Once you get into the 10k mark I think an external DAC starts to become relevant. I'm not keen on arbitrary rules of thumb, but I guess all this means it that I believe a DAC should be around 10-15% of a total system. -- jhwilliams jhwilliams's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1876 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
On Thu, 2005-11-10 at 15:22 -0800, jhwilliams wrote: highdudgeon Wrote: I have a new Lavry DAC - which, unlike benchmark, re-clocks incoming signal -- and I'm curious to see what the difference will be. I do know that, with a CD player, the difference is night and day.- The Benchmark DAC1 reclocks. From what I've read it's one of the best DACs around when it comes to jitter. Benchmark says that their system is immune from jitter. But I'm not smart enough to know if that is just marketing or backed up by engineering. From the reviews I've read the Benchmark and Lavry da2002 should be able to go toe to toe (Stereophile has one I believe). Clearly the Lavry will have a bit of an edge. At these price points, personal taste is a big deal. I friend of mine has a slightly older Meridian transport and DAC. I can confidently put my SB2 and Benchmark (yes, and the SB2 solo) up against it. In a couple of years I fully expect a DAC that blows the Benchmark away for half the price. You are way too conservative. In a couple of years, the SB5 will include that DAC. The SB2 is a big improvement from the olden days. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
yc_ Wrote: When connected to my North Star DAC via a Behringer equaliser, I found SB2's performance very close to that of my regular CD transport (Sony XA7ES). Sounded ever so slightly thinner. Of course then you ought to be able to fatten it back up with some minimal tweaks to the DEQ... -Dan -- dwc dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
2005-11-07-00:12:29 dwc: I haven't done careful listening comparisons. I use my external dac and I'm happy with it. :) Yeah, I'm kind of in that boat. I've just always been running SBs into a digital in of my Arcam AVR, because I chose the Arcam for the pleasing quality of its D/A, and because with a digital source it can send some bass off to the sub. I found, though, that the SB2 sounded better to me if its bits went through an Apogee Big Ben (especially after the Big Ben got the one-cap power supply upgrade suggested by Maui Dan months ago on another forum far away). The sound of an un-Big-Benned SB2 with no internal mods to the SB2 only sounded a teensy bit better to me when it was fed by a Bolder linear power supply. My new SB3, though... I believe that the SB3's digital out, when the SB3 is being fed by that selfsame Bolder linear, is noticeably less likely[1] to cause me crankiness of the ears. Maybe in this context (digital out, quiet 5V in), the linear 3.3v regulator we've heard about shines? Is the 3.3V supply particularly intimately involved with the digital path of the SB? Early times yet, more listening to do, but I suspect I may be less likely to bother feeding this puppy through the Big Ben. [1] Noticeably less likely doesn't imply it was ever actually terrible, of course. Straining for subtleties is what we audio-obsessives DO. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
On Wed, 2005-11-09 at 19:39 -0800, highdudgeon wrote: Oh, the thing is this: I actually have a very -- very -- revealing system, based around Harbeth Monitor 40s. Personally, I think SB3 is just terrific for casual listening, and I can see how a change in DAC with lesser components might not make much of the difference. But who knows. Only those who care and try it can know. A lot of being an audiophile is personal taste. I have a new Lavry DAC - which, unlike benchmark, re-clocks incoming signal -- and I'm curious to see what the difference will be. I do know that, with a CD player, the difference is night and day. So let us know. I tend to believe that more revealing systems are more sensitive to all things. Without good speakers driven by good amps in a good room, most of the tweaks can't be tested. Of course, the cost/benefit curve is rather steep... Nothing in the audiophile world has a rational cost/benefit relationship. Going from a $2000 total system to a $4000 is not going to sound twice as good. It might not sound 1% better. I bought my Benchmark DAC-1 with the excuse that I could use it in my recording studio if I didn't want it in my living room with my SB1/G. Hah! It has never gotten within 30 feet of the recording studio. Now if I had a SB2 or 3, maybe the Benchmark would be in the studio, but not this month. The point is to listen to, and enjoy the music. Just IMHO and all that. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
It's refreshing to see a little bit of sanity creeping in over this issue. Up til now there seems to have been an almost dogmatic assumption by many that an external high-end DAC is mandatory for audiophile quality. But my experience is that the SB2 analogue output sounds absolutely bloody marvelous. And I'm not running any kind of micky-mouse system: the SB2 is directly feeding a pair of ATC SCM100A active monitors. They've never sounded so good. -- cliveb cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I've mentioned this in previous posts, but IMO comparing an SB2 to a dedicated cd player (NAD C541) at ~2x the cost, but 3 years old reveals the cd player edging ahead. Compare a Cyrus Dac X against either of the above, and they really sound much worse. The Cyrus Dac X is a very pricey though, and it refused to co-operate with my dvd or stb. Supposedly there is a software update to fix this though (I didn't keep it). I listened mostly using a musical fidelity xa-2 and some bw DM601s2's and a little with a WNA mkII headamp and HD650's -- bludragon bludragon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1530 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
cliveb Wrote: It's refreshing to see a little bit of sanity creeping in over this issue. Up til now there seems to have been an almost dogmatic assumption by many that an external high-end DAC is mandatory for audiophile quality. But my experience is that the SB2 analogue output sounds absolutely bloody marvelous. And I'm not running any kind of micky-mouse system: the SB2 is directly feeding a pair of ATC SCM100A active monitors. They've never sounded so good. Imo the SB2 is good but in no way compares to my Cal Audio Lab redbook cd player. Prehaps the some of the biggest improvement gains by using an external DAC is going to be the replacement of the internal op amp with a high quality amplifier. I input into a Classe CP60 analogue preamp instead of running into my Anthem AVM20 pre/pro. The Anthem like most processors is going to convert it back to digital for processing. -- Kenr Kenr's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1134 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
cliveb Wrote: directly feeding a pair of ATC SCM100A active monitors. They've never sounded so good. Jesus mister Backham, I've never seen powered monitors like those. 12 woofers? wow. I have a pair of Alesis monitor 2's, and I thought they were big for monitors. Clive's rig (bit outdated now) http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/clive_b/clive_b.html Clive, what are the metal frames below the speakers? I don't see those in the product photo: http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/products/largeimage.asp?ID=129 I take it you're fond of them? Looks to be a UK-only product? -Dan -- dwc dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
dwc Wrote: Jesus mister Backham, I've never seen powered monitors like those. 12 woofers? wow. I have a pair of Alesis monitor 2's, and I thought they were big for monitors. You should see the ATC 300's: they are ing enormous! The SCM100A is a domestic version of pro studio monitors. Quite a few recording and mastering studios use ATC speakers. The ATC website has a list of clients (http://www.atc.gb.net/client_list.html). dwc Wrote: Clive's rig (bit outdated now) http://www.lurcher.org/ukra/clive_b/clive_b.html Clive, what are the metal frames below the speakers? I don't see those in the product photo: http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/products/largeimage.asp?ID=129 I take it you're fond of them? Looks to be a UK-only product? Crikey, I didn't realise that page was still online anywhere! Yes, the description is a bit outdated now. The CD player and preamp are gone, replaced by the SB2. The large rack full of CDs has been removed, yielding additional space for my wife to rearrange the furniture when she feels like it :-) The metal frames are just speaker stands, to raise them off the floor to the correct height. -- cliveb cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
On Tue, 2005-11-08 at 11:10 -0800, dwc wrote: cliveb Wrote: directly feeding a pair of ATC SCM100A active monitors. They've never sounded so good. Jesus mister Backham, I've never seen powered monitors like those. 12 woofers? wow. Real pro monitors are big and expensive. The smaller things sold for home studios are 'pro' only in marketing speak. For a grand a pair you start to get serious, but the stuff that mastering pros use starts about ten times that and goes up quickly. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I'm listening to a SB2 through the CEC DA53 DAC. I find it a little more revealing and more engaging than through the internal DAC. -- Bob Bressler Bob Bob Bressler's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2217 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
When connected to my North Star DAC via a Behringer equaliser, I found SB2's performance very close to that of my regular CD transport (Sony XA7ES). Sounded ever so slightly thinner. -- yc_ yc_'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2173 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
highdudgeon Wrote: I'm wondering how many people have done careful listening comparing the Squeezebox with and without a high-end external DAC? IE, is there much benefit to be gained? Little? None at all? I couldn't hear any difference at all between the Squeezebox straight-up and running through a Benchmark DAC-1, and ended up returning the DAC-1. That was on my main system, Parasound amplification to Paradigm Studio 100 speakers. I _think_ that I can tell a difference between it straight-up and running through the HeadRoom Micro DAC, but I wouldn't swear to that; I didn't do anything like a rigorous comparison, because I knew that I was keeping the Micro DAC no matter what (it has a USB input, and it's way way better than the sound card in my computer, so I use it to listen to music when at the computer) and didn't end up keeping it hooked up to the SB. Associated equipment on that was HeadRoom's Micro Amp driving HD-650 headphones. It's possible that my speaker system isn't good enough to reveal differences between the built-in and an external DAC, so if you've got a system that you've spent $20K on, you'll probably want to try it out anyway. But for the most part, I expect that differences between competent modern DACs are going to be very very subtle. At the very least, if you decide to try a DAC out, make sure you can return it. -- mkozlows mkozlows's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=62 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
