Re: Dubya with Kung Fu Grip
True. However, this current subthread started with the following: I swear I've seen a big stone one of Lincoln, sitting down. You mean that it WON'T come to the defense of Liberty when a rabbi writes the word on its forehead? So? He got confused, since, in the legend, the rabbi makes a clay figure and animates it, he does not do it to an existing statue. He had the right idea but applied it wrongly. Interestingly, in his novel Snow in August, set in Brooklyn in the late 1940s, Pete Hammill has a rabbi who is a refugee from Nazi Germany teach a Catholic teenager he befriends how to create the Golem. Good book. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: shrubCo's faith-based prison program an absolute failure
Strange mixing of words there... he is taking the same type of position as the administration. Your words confuse the position with the degree of responsibility and the statement's impact. Did you mean to discourage comparisons of list postings' positions with those held by people in power? No, but someone complained that a person was essentially being untruthful in criticizing the Bush Administration of being untruthful, and that therefore they were, apparently equivalent in being untruthful. My point is, if I am untruthful here on this list, that has relatively little consequence. When the Bush Administration is untruthful, it can - and does - have serious consequences. Any attempt to portray both untruthfulnesses as even remotely equivalent is, to me, cutting the Bush Administration enormous slack that it does not deserve. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Politics, was [L3] Re: fight the evil of price discrimination
IOW, you (pl.) say you don't prefer it if ONLY criminals carry weapons, you (pl.) just want to change the law so everyone who carries a weapon is by definition a criminal . . . I didn't say that, and I didn't say anything about criminalizing guns. It is my belief that there are relatively very few individual who can demonstrate an actual use for a personally owned gun - hunters, target shooters, for the most part - and we can devise ways to enable them to own guns while trying to keep guns out of the hands of those who really should not have them. I don't think it's unreasonable or unconstitutional to try to do that. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Irregulars question: Milky Way
And the Milky part of it comes from a myth that it's the milk spilling out of a goddess's breast into the sky. Really? And I thought it was named after a candy bar... Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hyperion - The Motion Picture
Maybe I Should Read The Book Maru No maybe. I'd put Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion up there with The Anubis Gates, His Dark Materials, and just a very few others as among the ten best books I've ever read. I consider Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion to be essentially one book that got published in two parts. I remember reading Hyperion and coming to the end and thinking - huh? Wha hoppen? That's IT? I did not know that it immediately continued in Fall of Hyperion; which, fortunately, I was able to find a copy of almost the next day and thus was not doomed to hellish frustration. A good film adaptation could be eye-popping and mind-blowing. But since when has Scorsese shown any interest in skiffy? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Politics, was [L3] Re: fight the evil of price discrimination
Display and interpret any symbol the way you wish to. If others get offended, it is their problem, not yours. As long as *all* they do is feel offended. There have been reports, for example, of Jews in some European countries being attacked for wearing kippot, stars of David, and other Jewish symbols. My rabbi, when he was in Germany, was warned not to wear his kippah on the street. There is no such thing as a right not to be offended or anything like that. The antidote to offensive speech is MORE speech, not less. I think sometimes people misinterpret politeness and civility as silence. Although I agree people should not go out of their way to offend, I also think they should not have to hold back lest they offend. As long as we ascribe honorable motives to each other and a presumption of sincerity, we should be able to say and respond to anything here without fear of being branded with calumny and excoriation. Disagree with me, however vigorously - as long as you let me disagree with you. (Although I hope we will all consider what everyone else is saying before reflexively disagreeing.) Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Politics, was [L3] Re: fight the evil of price discrimination
The other edits the most important magazine of th Left. I can't even reply to the other points, most of which seem to be personal attacks. However, The Nation is not the most important magazine of the left. It has a tiny circulation. I can't even remember the last time I snuck a peak at it. The magazines I read with political content are The American Prospect, The Washington Monthly, Dissent, and Tikkun. I'd say any of them has more influence among liberal and left-leaning people than The Nation. As for the right denouncing Ann Coulter, I guess you haven't been watching Fox News Channel recently, where she is a heroine. And that reaches far more Americans than the National Review. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Politics, was [L3] Re: fight the evil of price discrimination
One of the reasons that people like Rush Limbaugh are so successful at speaking to the American public is that - unlike their opponents - they _like_ the public. I have lots of problems with Rush. But he loves America, and he loves Americans. The American people rather like that and they (correctly) completely reject people who believe that it is reasonable to say the American flag is a symbol of hatred. You have demonstrated my point better than I ever could have. He loves America - while hating all kinds of Americans who don't happen to be exactly like him. Rush Limbaugh succeeds by lying to the public, by pandering to their prejudices and to their completely misplaced resentments and grudges and envies and greeds. Instead of inspiring them to be better people, he tells them it's just fine to be selfish, greedy, stupid, ignorant shits. I love America, too, you know. Liberals love this country - we wouldn't try to save it if we didn't. It is possible to love your country while being critical of it. In fact, it's part of the prophetic tradition to tell your people not what they want to hear, but what they don't want to hear - what they very much want NOT to hear - but NEED to hear. William Bennet is permitted to grump publicly about how everything is awful and going to hell - why can't liberals? Do Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell love America, after saying the despicable things they did after 9/11? Okay, I'm rambling here. It's late and I'm very tired. But don't ever tell me that liberals don't love America. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Clinton's Perjury *Again* RE: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words
What democrats said that it was acceptable for Clinton to lie under oath? I don't know what other Democrats may have said. I never said it was acceptable for him to lie under oath. I just didn't think it was an impeachable offense. I also think he should never have been forced to face that deposition, since Paula Jones's case was, in my opinion, purely politically motivated by people who hated Clinton no matter what he did. That said, he should have told the truth. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Politics, was [L3] Re: fight the evil of price discrimination
So her rhetoric is over-the-top, but her basic position doesn't seem too far out. The prosecution rests. Huh? What does that mean? How does what he said prove the case? It seems to me the opposite. She has been put forward as an example of an extremist whom liberals should denounce. But the examples given make her seem somewhat less extreme to me than, say, a person writing a book essentially accusing every liberal in American history of being deliberate traitors, or of a religious leader blaming Americans he disagrees with for a terrorist attack on our country. If you want to argue that the left needs to police itself the way you claim the right does, I would respond that I don't know of too many left-wingers who get the kind of attention that Ann Coulter and Pat Robertson do. Noam Chomsky is an extremist, but he has about as much influence in world politics as I do. It's a simple matter of who is listening - Coulter and Robertson get more attention because they get more attention. They SHOULD be denounced, by everyone. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination
Let's see Tom condemn Katha Pollit once in a while. I'm not sure who she is, sorry. When Noam Chomsky says things equally bad - or worse - our liberal friends like Tom tell us that even criticizing them is censorship. I haven't said anything about him here, and I don't have to please you, but I think he's an extremist and I definitely don't agree with much of what he writes. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
NYT: Weapons of Mass Confusion
From the NY Times (http://nytimes.com/2003/08/01/international/worldspecial3/01CND-GORDON.html?hp - free registration required): Weapons of Mass Confusion By MICHAEL R. GORDON CAMP DOHA, Kuwait, Aug. 1 There is a bold and entirely plausible theory that may account for the mystery over Iraq's missing weapons of mass destruction. Saddam Hussein, the theory holds, ordered the destruction of his weapon stocks well before the war to deprive the United States of a rationale to attack his regime and to hasten the eventual lifting of the United Nations sanctions. But the Iraqi dictator retained the scientists and technical capacity to resume the production of chemical and biological weapons and eventually develop nuclear arms. Mr. Hussein's calculation was that he could restart his weapons programs once the international community lost interest in Iraq and became absorbed with other crises. That would enable him to pursue his dream of making Iraq the dominant power in the Persian Gulf region and make it easier for him to deter enemies at home and abroad. 'This is the leading theory,' said Gary Samore, director of studies at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies and a former nonproliferation expert on the National Security Council under President Bill Clinton. American intelligence experts are still in Iraq trying to determine the status of Mr. Hussein's weapons programs, so it is premature to be too categorical about what they will find. What the theory offers, however, is a new way to make sense of the testimony of captured Iraqi officials who claim that weapons stocks were eliminated, Mr. Hussein's pattern of grudging and partial cooperation with United Nations weapons inspectors and his longstanding ambitions in the region. If true, it means that the Iraqi threat was less immediate than the administration asserted but more worrisome than the critics now suggest. And it means the decision to use military force to pre-empt that threat was not an urgent necessity but a judgment call, one that can be justified as the surest way to put an end to Iraq's designs but still one about which ardent defenders of the United States' security can disagree. It goes on; entire URL given above for those who want to read the rest of it. This speculation raises several questions in my mind: if Saddam destroyed his nukes - WHY DIDN'T HE TELL US??? That's what we wanted, after all, what we were demanding, the ostensible reason for the invasion. Why do what he was supposed to but not gain any benefit from doing so? Let us invade anyway? He's a nutcase, but I don't see how this makes any sense from his point of view. Also, did we know he was doing it? (We meaning the CIA, the president, etc.) Could the destruction have been detected from outside Iraq's borders using spy satellites, etc.? And, if we did know - did we invade anyway because the president wanted his invasion? (This will piss off the Bush-is-wonderful-and-so-is-the-war crowd on this list, but it has to be asked in light of other suggestions that the president and his chickenhawk warmongers either cooked the intelligence books or ignored contradictory evidence or both.) -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination
but would start with educating people (beginning in elementary school) with the hazards associated with certain lifestyle choices - and gradually making people responsible for their own folly -- we could ~ halve the chronic disease burden with lifestyle changes But that would go against the conservative ethos that people are 100% responsible for each and every thing that happens to them in their life and that no one can or should do anything about it, except to sneer at and lecture them if and when they make choices that the conservatives don't happen to agree with. Oh, and to make all of us pray to Jesus Christ even if we don't want to - conservatives are very big on that. And before any of the conservatives on this list start to sputter and huff and puff that I'm mischaracterizing them - yes. I am. Not every conservative acts like I pretend they do above. Big deal. Enough do that I don't think I'm being any more unfair than, oh, say, Ann Coulter or any of the sneering lecturing pigs on Fox News Channel. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination
Seriously, the ones that get the most attention seem to be more extreme one way or another. That's probably true for any group that gets stereotyped. Except maybe Poles. I've never met a Pole anywhere close to being as stupid as all the jokes imply. (Where'd they get that reputation, anyway?) Except, when an extreme right-winger goes ballistic, nobody but a few dumb liberals notice. When an extreme leftist mouths off, the right wing media stooges spew it all over the place like this is representative of all mainstream moderate liberals and progressives. Rush Limbaugh is notorious for taking some deranged wacko feminist and pretending that she speaks for all feminists everywhere everywhen. And nobody ever calls him or them on this disgusting practice. As for the Polish reputation for stupidity - I have no clue whence it originates. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: fight hte evil of price discrimination
Except, when a right winger makes an innocuous statement and the left wing media huffs and puffs until they blow the issue up into whatever slight they feel gets them the best press. So liberals aren't perfect. Never said they are. Although I bet some of the statements you characterize as innocuous are actually more pernicious than you'd like to admit. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter 5 (not really spoiler free anymore)
That's a good point I hadn't thought about. Ambition is not, in and of itself, an evil trait, and it is the one Slytherin most valued. If you can point those ambitious kids along the right path, you've got a better chance of keeping them from the Dark Arts than you would if you sent them off on their own. The trait that Slytherin most valued was purebloodedness. Ambition was a distant second. As I said, Rowling tends to write her good guys much better, much more nuanced and variegated, than her bad guys, who all tend to have unitary motivations and never change. Draco Malfoy is the prime example, but most of her Slytherin students are the same: just plain scum. My problem with Snape is that he does not appear to have any negative feelings towards his own house, even though Slytherin house produces Death Eaters, whom he cannot stand. You'd think he would at least appear conflicted, even if he had to dissemble. He certainly never seems to be even trying to nudge them back away from the path of evil - which he should know better than anyone how tempting it is and how likely it is that some of the Slytherin students seem to be heading down it. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The seven habits of highly ineffective societies
Restrictions on the free flow of information. The subjugation of women. Inability to accept responsibility for individual or collective failure. The extended family or clan as the basic unit of social organization. Domination by a restrictive religion. A low valuation of education. Low prestige assigned to work. I'm afraid I can see some of these factors beginning to affect the USA (not all). Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Lance!
Considering the level of interest shown in the Tour de France when it started, I'm surprised to see little or no mention of the fact, now that it's over, that Lance Armstrong won his fifth in a row. This one was more stirring than the previous 4, as his triumph was in doubt until the next-to-last day. He was used to blowing his competition away, and he just could not do so this year. I wouldn't be surprised if he savors this one the most, as it was his hardest-earned (except, perhaps, for his first, considering he was just coming off his miraculous recovery from cancer back then). Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter 5 (no spoilers)
I enjoyed #5 immensely. I especially liked the way Rowling developed Ginny Weasley - she's turning out to be a very interesting young witch. In general, I think, Rowling does much better with her good guys than with her villains. I also liked the way a lot of stuff that happened in this novel was prefigured in the preceding ones. It shows that she has done an excellent job of world-building and future history plotting. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter 5 (no spoilers)
Generally true, but I *loved* Dolores Umbridge. Of course, I'm about the only person who liked Luna Lovegood among people I;ve talked to, so what do I know? :) A) I don't consider Umbridge to be completely a villain. She's certainly wrongheaded and even cruel and destructive. But she's not in the same category as Voldemort or Bellatrix Lestrange or even Lucius Malfoy. B) I like Luna, too, although I wish we'd had at least a mention of her in a previous book. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter 5 (no spoilers)
S P O I L E R S P A C E Just because Dolores' motives for her actions were not of the slay everyone and take over the world variety does not mean she's not a villain. Evil doesn't have to wear a black cape and cackle maliciously in order to be evil. I found her brand of banal self-centeredness far more chilling than Voldemort's megalomania. Additionally, her willingness to use the Dark Arts (the scarring pen, for exanmple) and to extract information with the Cruciatus Curse shows her true colors. I think she's an interesting case for Rowling, whose villains usually seem to be kind of Johnny One-Notes. She and Fudge are well-intentioned but so wrong-headed as to be all but villains. However, they aren't. They are in between, which makes a nice change for Rowling. I mean, Draco Malfoy - how is he fooling anyone? Why does Snape, who clearly abhors Voldemort and all the Death Eaters, still show any favor at all to Slytherin just because it's his own house, when it is full of people who at the very least sympathize with Voldemort? Another gray area - Snape, not Draco. Interesting... Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Homeland Security Issue? :-)
Democratic state lawmakers fled Texas on Tuesday for the second time in three months to thwart a Republican drive to redraw the state's congressional districts. Eleven of the 12 Democrats in the state Senate left for Albuquerque, N.M., as a first special session called by the governor to address redistricting drew to a close and he called a second special session, scheduled to begin Wednesday. The second session could last as long as 30 days. Does anyone outside of the Texas governor's mansion or the Republican house leadership still consider this to be a threat to national security? The first special session of the Texas senate failed to redistrict. So the governor called a second special session - after promising not to. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution
Since society's role in assigning adoptions should entirely give consdieration to the needs and rights of the child - not to the desires of the adopters, I think that society should try and meet the reasonable expectations of the child whenever possible, since of course, there is no way of determining any contrary desire of the child. If the needs of the child are everything, would you take a child away from bad parents? How about loving, responsible atheist parents - would you take a child away from them since they are not raising the child to be religious? How about a very poor couple - would you take their child away and give it to a wealthy, childless couple who could presumably do a better job or at least raise the child in something other than abject poverty? All of those could be construed to be logical extensions of any doctrine that the needs of the child are paramount. Which this country says all the time and practices none of the time. But in any case, this is a classic straw man argument and is entirely irrelevant to the qustion of whether or not gays should be permitted to legally marry! Not all heterosexual couples marry to have children (my older sister knew her entire life she never wanted kids - and she and her husband have not had any). Should we ban them from marrying? We don't require heterosexual couples to declare anything about their intentions to procreate before they marry - it's none of our business. And it shouldn't be. This is a question of simple equity - of the equal protection of the laws. If the government is going to be in the business of taking official notice of certain private actions, it either should extend that notice to all similar actions or to none. As always, my response to people who don't want gay marriage is simple - don't have one. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Case for a Marriage Ammendment to the Constitution
Nevertheless, I would hope that everyone would be in favor of the second half. I think that this issue is so important and controversial that it should be decided by the State Legislatures and Congress, which are elected by the people, and not written by unelected judges. As will hardly surprise anyone, I could not possibly disagree more. By this logic, the Supreme Court should not have decided as it did in Brown vs Board of Education. If it were left up to states, there would still be legal discrimination in the deep South, almost 50 years after Brown. Rights are rights; they should not be at the mercy of transitory or even entrenched prejudiced majorities. It has been the province of the Supreme Court for 200 years to rule on the constitutionality of laws. A conservative, of all people, should respect that kind of established tradition. The article cited is also factually wrong, as well as philosophically wrongheaded. Marriage has not historically been about procreation; or, at least, not only about procreation. If that were so, sterile people would not be allowed to marry. Marriage has been about many things: property, honor, dynastic unions, balance of power, etc. The kind of nuclear family beloved of the Christian Right has not existed in this form for most of human history. To fetishize it - and to use this fiction as a means to beat up gay people (figuratively, although they certainly get beat up literally too by those enflamed by the prejudice encompassed in such articles) - is to violate historical truth in the service of an unworthy attempt to capitalize on some people's bias. Prejudices should be fought, not pandered to. Permitting gay people to marry legally does not do the slightest thing to infringe upon the rights of anyone else, despite the Christian Right's hysterical delusion that the family is somehow threatened by the idea. The family is not in any danger. The Constitution, however, might be. An amendment barring gay marriage is unnecessary and unworthy of even being considered. It purports to solve a nonexistent problem. It is shameful. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Paul Gigot on the Marsh Arabs
Many on the political left have been reluctant to concede the special brutality of Saddam, as if admitting that truth would justify a war they opposed. Some genocides are apparently more equal than others. It's true that America can't right every wrong, or depose every dictator. But the U.S. does take on some greater obligation when an American president encourages an uprising against a madman and then walks away from those who do as we hope. The liberation of the Marsh Arabs may well have come just in time to save their culture, and to remove a stain on the American conscience. This is bullshit. For one thing, it was a right-wing president who abandoned the Marsh Arabs in the first place. There may be some people who opposed this year's war who are concealing Saddam's brutality, but they are extreme left-wing kooks, about as representative of mainstream liberals as David Duke is of mainstream Republicans. Considering for how many decades right wingers in this country tolerated dictators such as Somoza and Pinochet and Marcos without caring what they did to their people, I sniff a bit of hypocrisy that they've all of a sudden gotten religion about freedom (anywhere but in the US, of course) from torture and oppression. It's possible to honorably oppose an invasion of a small, poor country that, more and more, is looking like it might not have been such a real threat to us after all, without being vilified, misrepresented, and having your motives and decency trashed. George Bush is president, he's not the king. I'm glad Saddam is gone, and if that was Bush's motive for the invasion - WHY THE HELL DIDN'T HE SIMPLY COME OUT AND SAY SO instead of building such a flimsy case that Saddam had WMD and was sponsoring Al Qaeda? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Brin interview on Scifi.com
http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue326/interview.html Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words
There is a pervasive dishonesty that has crept into this issue where we have people actively crippling American war efforts for short-term partisan advantage - and a bunch of very bright people on the list who buy that wholesale. Oh, stop it. This is close to the Ann Coulter libel that all liberals are traitors. The only people crippling American war efforts for short-term partisan advantage are Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld by deliberately short-staffing the post-war occupation forces, and then yelling Traitor! every time anyone criticizes them. How the hell is pointing out that there's no WMD and Saddam is still on the loose and American soldiers are dying every day and maybe the Bushies exaggerated the threat in order to get their war crippling the effort? This is still America, you know, despite Ashcroft's attempts to overthrow the Constitution, and I can criticize the president anytime I want about anything I want without having to prove my loyalty. Argue your points, but don't disparage the motives of those who disagree with you. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Seth Finkelstein on 16 words
To me, the most bothersome thing about the 16 words is that it also happened simultaneously in Australia and England -- Howard and Blair said the same thing and now blame it on a failure of the British intelligence service. What a coincidence that neither the British, Australian nor U.S. intelligence services or top elected officials could get this right. The British apparently believed it. The Americans knew better. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Periodic Table of Dessert
http://www.eblong.com/zarf/periodic/closeup.html Ah. I've seen a different poster with the same title, that had pictures of the desserts...mmm...desserts... :::drools::: Tom Beck Sweet Tooth Maru www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Project Orion
They use a Project Orion type spaceship in the Niven/Pournelle novel Footfall to launch a military mission to the F'i'thp conquered space station. That was the first place I ever heard of Project Orion (and a lot of other unconventional weapons ideas from the past, such as Thor). Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
LXG (no spoilers)
Well...there are a _few_ semi-spoilers at the end. I was very disappointed with this movie. I thought it was surprisingly poorly made - the cinematography was dim and blurred, the editing was choppy, the action sequences were staged in a way that you could not actually see what people were doing, there were huge gaps in the narrative, at times you could understand what people were saying, and the story made very little sense. Also, a lot of the larger scale outdoor scenes looked fake, as if purposely supposed to appear like paintings or sketches rather than an attempt to at least fool you into thinking it was real. Maybe that was intentional, to emphasize the comic book origins? For a movie these days to look and sound bad is an amazing and dubious achievement. There was some entertainment value in the movie, but I just did not find it as enjoyable as I had been hoping. I do not expect it will do very well. For one thing, a summer movie needs to appeal to younger people. And among them, who the hell has ever even HEARD of any of the characters in this movie? (Heck, how many ADULTS know who Allan Quartermain, Captain Nemo, Dorian Gray, Mina Harker, and even Tom Sawyer are?) If you stopped 100 twenty-year-olds and asked them to identify Allan Quartermain, I bet not even a single one could tell you who he was. I loved the LXG comic book, I think it was a grand conceit; I think the movie is a huge letdown. Spoilers (of a sort; some are more like nitpicks): What is the fascination this summer with Mongolia? Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle opens up in Mongolia for no reason that makes sense, and LXG concludes in Mongolia for no reason that makes sense. You're manufacturing all these super arms - why in Mongolia? How the hell could you even build that factory there? How the hell are you going to get all those tanks back to Europe? I didn't see any roads in the snow leading to/from the fortress. Put the damn thing in Africa or Asia Minor or Eastern Europe. Makes a whole hell of a lot more sense. And where did all those scientists come from? They are never mentioned at any previous point in the film. Were there even that many scientists in the world in 1899? Okay, I know this isn't our world, but still. How can Nautilus move through the canals of Venice? The thing's as big as a city block. When it surfaces right next to the dock in London, it should blow right through the wooden planks. It should swamp anything near it. How does the invisible man send telegraph signals from the little scout ship back to Nautilus without being detected? And how does he survive on that ship for the days it takes it to get from Venice to Mongolia? How does an invisible man eat - and, more importantly, go to the bathroom? How can a vampire stand in the sunlight and not burst into flames? And what's the deal between her and Dorian Gray? Some backstory is implied but seems to have been edited out. Seeing Mr Hyde suddenly turn out to be a rather okay guy is kind of silly. If Jekyll can control him - why didn't he do so earlier? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
(My oldest daughter is 20 and my youngest daughter 13, so Barbie's are behind us now). They're into Malibu Stacy now?;) (Either that or they're buying real clothing for themselves, which is even more expensive. g) Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
I expect that I will keep repeating myself on this subject occasionally, until I get a reality check that will tell me if I am alone in believing John C Wright, author of The Golden Age and The Phoenix Exultant is the hottest new author since Brin hit the scene. I'm a big fan of Alastair Reynolds (Revelation Space, Chasm City, Redemption Ark) and Charles Stross. The Golden Age is okay, but didn't excite me as much as it obviously did to you. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Reading lists.
For the Harry Potter books, I like the UK cover art better, at least judging from Order Of The Phoenix. And I regret the dumbing down of the book 1 title in the US by changing Philosopher's Stone to Sorceror's Stone. Me too. I have purchased all 5 books from amazon.co.uk because I preferred the cover art on the Bloomsbury editions. The binding on some wasn't all that good (esp. Goblet of Fire), but Order of the Phoenix apppears to be much better manufactured. Although it is true that sorceror's stone means absolutely nothing, esp. if you know anything at all about alchemy, I wonder how many young readers in the UK got the association either until it was explained in the book? -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Why we cast novels
I especially miss the novelty LP album covers (like my original Led Zeppelin III cover with the picture wheel in it) and the double albums with suitable-for-hanging-in-your-dorm-room trippy artwork inside. It's a real shame: the death of the LP and the small size of CD and tape covers seem to have killed most of that whole art-concept aspect of albums. I miss the cover of Monty Python's Matching Tie and Handkerchief (if you've seen it, you know what I mean). Actually, I miss Matching Tie and Handkerchief. Well, I own the LP, but if you've heard it only on CD, you've unfortunately completely missed the joke, which is that is the world's first (and most likely only) three-sided album - they cut two grooves into one side of the vinyl LP, so the record player (what an archaic concept and word!) played first one track and then the other - which is utterly impossible to duplicate on CD. Sigh. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Why we cast novels
The British edition was better than what us herms got. The cover slipped out to reveal the hanged man. It didn't for the US edition. Yes it did. At least, mine did. Unless I somehow managed to buy the British edition in a US store. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: More Lies
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29766-2003Jul8.html?nav=hptop_ts Former Vermont governor Howard Dean said, The credibility of the U.S. is a precious commodity. We should all be deeply dismayed that our nation was taken to war and our reputation in the world forever tainted by what appears to be the deliberate effort of this administration to mislead the American people, Congress and the United Nations. Forgive me, but I'm not sure of your point in posting this with the subject More Lies - who are you accusing of lying? The Bush Administration or Howard Dean? -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
TDF
I watched the team time trial of the Tour De France today, and the US Postal Service team (incl. Lance Armstrong) came from way back to not only win but shatter the course, building up speed with every klick, eventually winning by 30 seconds. It was a stirring achievement to watch, because they really rode as a *team,* all 9 riders streaking down the course as one. Very very kewel. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: TDF
Don't forget we totally beat the French! Speaking only for myself, I'm not rooting *against* anyone - I'm rooting *for* Lance Armstrong. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: TDF
Tom Beck: Who says a playoff series doesn't begin until the home team loses? I've never heard that. Is it in pro basketball, which isn't a real sport? Do they mean the team with the home team advantage, or the home team for each game? I suspect they mean the first but it's still a silly statement. Not trying to pick a fight. What they mean is the team that has the 4 games at home. Primarily in the NBA, also in the NHL, to a lesser extent in MLB. Because, in the NBA, the home team has a huge advantage, if each team were to win its home games, the team with the 4 home games would win the championship. I don't know why you say it's silly; it's no sillier than anything else one hears on sports-talk radio (which I know perfectly well is a source of some very silly things indeed). My only point was that Armstrong is so dominant in the mountain stages, that's where this race really begins, at least over the last few years. It was an analogy, which I realize is at best of limited utility, but all I wanted to do was point out that Armstrong has been more of a force in the mountain stages than on flatter ground. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Speaking of sports Re: Why we cast novels
In a message dated 7/8/2003 6:09:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Speaking of sports, anyone else following the Tour de France? If anyone who knows more about cycling than I do (which isn't very much, aside from having read Lance Armstrong's _It's Not About the Bike_ and knowing where his house near Lake Austin is and thinking he's just incredible) and would like to give me analyses off-list (unless there's a general clamor for it to be on-list), I'd be keenly interested. :) I'm following it, but it's way too early to really get into it. Lance Armstrong is currently in 12th place, 19 seconds behind the leader, but this race doesn't really start to mean anything until it moves up into the mountains, which is where Armstrong usually leaves his competition minutes behind, not seconds. They say in American team sports that a playoff series doesn't really begin until the home team loses a game; the last few years, the Tour De France doesn't mean a thing until, if ever, Lance Armstrong is beaten in the mountains. I'm following it either on the Outdoor Living channel (which must have a viewership in the high two figures) or through CNN/SI.com. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
My point is that the biography does not idolize him as a person. The author idolizes him as an athlete and appreciates him as a man. But I would make the point that Kofax seems unique in his maintaining his dignity and his refusal to cash in on his celebrity. But rather then argue this I would suggest that you read the book to learn of his small kindnesses and his interactions with others. I have read the book. Again, I agree with you that it is not Koufax elevating himself. A lot of people are dignified and kind. I know it isn't Leavy who elevates him but rather many of his other admirers. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
How about Juan Marichal? -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
But your description of him is precisely one he would agree to. That is the person that comes through in the book. He disavows anything more. When he did not pitch on Yom Kippur this was not a political act and not really a religous one (Kofax is the prototypical non-observant Jew. And yet his act was in the modern parlance empowering to Jews. He accepted this and tried to be a role model I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that Koufax himself would not go along with others' overestimation of him? I certainly agree with you on that, since that was my unstated point: that it was his admirers and not him who have the unfortunate tendency I noted. Koufax himself has been an extremely private person. An admirable one, but there are lots of admirable people who don't have their friends trying to glorify them. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sandy Kofax
No baseball for a while so I thought I might stir the pot. Just finished Jane Leavy's excellent if reverential bio. There is an unfortunate tendency among some of Koufax's admirers, especially those who have known him, to elevate him into some kind of human paragon. Granted that he appears to be a highly decent, respectful, dignified person, the fact remains that he is, basically, someone who had an astounding God-given ability that he got the absolute most out of. He was a great baseball player; there's nothing wrong with being a great baseball player, but let's not make him out to be anything more than that. He's not Albert Schweitzer, he's not Martin Luther King Jr. And he doesn't have to be. -- Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heterophobia in the UK
However, the changes have been criticised by human rights campaigners who complain that heterosexual non-married couples are discriminated against. Heterosexual couples will not be eligible for the registration scheme, a decision attacked by veteran gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell. Mr Tatchell said: It is divisive, heterophobic and discriminatory to exclude unmarried heterosexual couples, he said. Why? They can get legally married! I understand his point is that gay couples should also be permitted - which I agree with - but there's no discrimination against unmarried straight couples. Tom Beck ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heterophobia in the UK
To modify an old saying: Why buy the cow if you can get the government to give you the milk for free? I'm afraid I don't see your point. The complaint is that the UK government will, rather than permit actual legal same-sex marriage, permit gay couples certain privileges similar to marriage but without the formal name, which some gay spokesperson says discriminates against unmarried straight couples by not permitting them a similar legal arrangement in some way short of actual marriage. And my point is, unmarried straight couples have no such need because they can actually get married. If they choose not to, that's up to them, but at least they have the choice, which gays do not. Therefore, there is no possible discrimination. If you want to argue that gays should be given full legal marriage rights, I agree. What the UK government is proposing is, actually, still, discrimination against _gays_ not against straights, even if it would be slightly less discriminatory than it used to be. So what is your point? Tom Beck ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Heterophobia in the UK
But of course the BBC managed to find a straight couple to illustrate the issue: they have a child and live together and think the new law is a good thing; but they would like to be able to take advantage of it themselves since they don't want to get married. Why should straight people be forced to marry against their wishes to obtain legal rights and tax advantages that gay couples can obtain without having to get married? Gay couples are NOT PERMITTED to get married even if they wanted to. Let gays get legally married - and call it marriage - and then you might have a point. Straight couples at least CAN get married. If they choose not to, that's their decision. But gays who want to get married are prohibited. And why should unmarried couples get any of these rights and privileges? Marriage promotes stability, which is good for children, therefore good for society. If they want those rights and privileges, let them get married, since they, at least, are permitted to do so. Tom Beck ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: The Brights
Legions of obese Americans and Russians and Spaniards and Canadians... Well...um...Russians were obese *long* before McDonalds invaded Moscow... Tom Beck ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Brights
Is NOT fat. Is extra layer of skin for keepink warm. Nyet. Eez FAT. I remember when I lived there seeing women eating containers of sour cream like it was ice cream. :::shudder::: Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WMD
It suggests that the Americans on the list are not representative of the American public, which was my point. So? We're supposed to be? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WMD
Tom, not to be rude, but are you even capable of discussing these things, or do you just start frothing at the mouth as soon as someone mentions George Bush? I mean, you seem like a bright and reasonable guy - right up until someone mentions a Republican and then I swear to God someone else takes over your body - it's like the Exorcist or something... A) Sometimes I exaggerate to make a point. Or sometimes I'm just baiting... B) Yes, Bush does push just about every button I possess. C) I don't always have the time to write something reasoned and well thought out. I'm just spitballing here, not writing position papers. D) There are plenty of conservatives who are the exact same way about Democrats and liberals and the Clintons. I realize that's not necessarily an excuse. E) Not to be rude, but there are some people who cannot mention George Bush and Iraq without getting all hagiographic and trembling with rapturous joy and admiration. Any criticism of any aspect of the recent war is automatically wrong and completely out of the question. They start frothing at the mouth as soon as anyone mentions looting or not enough troops, or anything similar... F) If you calm down, I will too. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Why is it so hard to see there's a difference there? And how come the only people in the world outside of Israel who care about the difference live in the United States, and most of them are conservatives? Well, most American Jews care quite a lot about Israel, and most of us are not conservative (some of us are Conservative, but that's whole different row of pews...) Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon soccer FOOTBALL game
Is there a name for a shot where the ball is cradled on the ankles and both legs are lifted and snapped in a whip-like motion? Yeah: Falling On Your Ass. It's vaguely similar to the bicycle kick or overhead though. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Would the Israelis be willing to give up all of their West Bank settlements at this point? If they did, would all of the Palestinians then quit calling for the annihilation of all Jews? Would they give up their attempts to claim Jerusalem? One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that groups such as Hamas do not object to the occupation - they object to Israel's very existence. If you read their official position documents, it's very clear that they have no intention of stopping until there is no more Israel. A Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, living in peace with Israel, is completely unacceptable to them. This is not, in my opinion, an argument against a Palestinian state. However, until that state (or its rudimentary proto-government, the current Palestinian Authority) demonstrates BOTH a will AND a capability to subjugate Hamas (the way the nascent Israel stifled the Stern Gang and the Irgun) it will be almost impossible for that Palestinian state to be created. Which is precisely why Hamas is doing what it is doing (other than the joy they get from massacreing helpless Jewish - and other - civilians): they DON'T WANT PEACE. It's an open question whether the PA - or even some Israelis - want peace, but it is blindingly clear that Hamas definitely doesn't. Hamas wants chaos and suffering, hoping that it will lead to more and more Palestinians being desperate enough to follow them. They WANT Israeli attacks and repression. They think it will lead to their desired outcome. Until Hamas is destroyed, either by Israel or by the PA, there's no hope for peace. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
The same goes for Israel. Shortly after WWII, the least unfair solution probably would have been taking a good-sized chunk of land from Germany to form a Jewish homeland, while negotiating with the Middle East world to get them visitation rights to their holy sites. Instead, Europe decided to pay its debt by giving the Jews somebody else's land. It's too late to change that decision now. The best we can do now is try to get a decent two-state solution to work. You're ignoring the Balfour Declaration and the fact that there was a nascent Israel in Palestine - 1948 didn't just happen out of thin air. You're also ignoring the fact that the UN declared a partition in 1947, but the Arabs said no. There should have been a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but as always the Arabs and Palestinians refused anything other than total victory (from their point of view). Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
In a message dated 6/13/03 1:39:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If that is a fair assessment, then I have another question. Were any (or most) of the refugees able/permitted to return to their homes a year or so later, when their fear and uncertainty had subsided? If they were not permitted, who stopped them? If they were permitted, then why didn't they soon return when they saw that their homes in Israel seemed moderately safe and attractive compared to the refugee camps? They have not been permitted to return, and the Arabs have never wanted them to return. The Arabs have intentionally kept them in the camps (which they have deliberately kept in as appalling condition as they can) in order to have a reason not to recognize Israel (We can't recognize Israel until the refugee problem is solved - ignoring the fact that they themselves are responsible for the refugee problem in the first place) and so they have a ready-made excuse for their own political stagnation - whenever their domestic populations get pissed at all the repression and corruption, they can say, Everyone boo Israel! and hope that their people will be distracted from their own abysmal internal situations. The Palestinians have got to be the worst governed and worst led people in the world. They have been betrayed by their own leaders and their so-called Arab brothers almost without cessation for the last half century. I can't think of anything that has ever been done in their name that has not turned out to be a total disaster for them. The tragedy is, they have so much in common with Israelis - and so little in common with the rest of the Arabs. In fact, a lot of Arabs hate Palestinians, they fear and mistrust them. (Remember what happened in Kuwait in 1991.) Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
In a message dated 6/13/03 1:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What right did the UN have to tell Arabs how they would be governed, or to take away their homes? The land was under UN jurisdiction, that's what right. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
It's kind of late to worry about that now. I have trouble reconciling that statement with someone who has an interest in understanding history. Come one, how many subjugated peoples in the entirety of world history got to vote on who ruled them? They had never voted to be part of the Ottoman Empire, either, so what right did the Ottoman Turks ever have to rule them? That sounds like a Gautam-style argument! I don't understand. It's actually a recognition of history. Things we wouldn't do now were done in the past. But we can't go back and undo every single act of injustice that ever took place anywhere. All we can do is understand them. The facts are, the Arabs did not vote for the partition in 1947, but they did not vote for the splintering of the Ottoman Empire into Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc., either They did not vote for anything, ever. They are still not allowed to vote for anything important. They could have had a Palestinian state in 1947. They refused. Jordan controlled the West Bank from 1948 to 1967, and Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip from 1948 to 1967. Why didn't they proclaim a Palestinian state in those territories during that period? They could have and nobody could have stopped them. So even if the creation of Israel was a monstrous injustice, which I do not for a second think, was the only possible solution to that to be to hold out, if necessary forever, waiting for the perfect solution (perfect in Arab extremists' minds, note) rather than take some admittedly less than perfect interim step? Israel was willing to take whatever the UN gave them in 1947; the Arabs held out for everything. How come the Arabs never get any blame for this? I repeat my point, that the Palestinians have been utterly betrayed at every moment in their sorry history by those who claim to speak for them. If only they would realize this and make true peace. They could have a state tomorrow if they would really do this. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
In a message dated 6/13/03 2:16:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why, specifically, could they not go to Israel in, say, late 1949 or 1950? Were they forcibly prevented? By whom? By that point, I think, the Israelis wouldn't let them back (neither would the Arab countries). And before you start bitching about Israel, keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Arab countries were expelled from those countries too and were taken in by Israel - where they instantly became citizens. As I said, not one Arab country has ever permitted the Palestinian refugees in their countries to become citizens. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
I suppose because the leaders of those countries were still trying to bring about Israel's destruction, and the Palestinan refugee situation seemed to them to help their cause. That's hardly a defense, as I'm sure you're aware. We're going to let you suffer indefinitely and ruin countless lives because we want to commit genocide. I am confused by the ambiguous phrase the Arabs. Who, specifically, do you want to have more blame? Geez, I mean the Arabs. The leadership of the Arab countries. I don't know how much more specific I can be. There weren't any polls or elections at the time as to who wanted what. The leadership of the new Israel accepted the UN partition plan; the Arab leaders, who represented the Arab countries at the UN, rejected it. And no, they were not the elected representatives of their peoples. The only democracy that has ever existed in the Middle East is Israel. Unfortunately, if you DID have free elections in a lot of the Arab countries, they probably WOULD want to continue the war against Israel. Which is not a defense of either elections or of war. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Iraqi Death Toll Tallied, Jobs Program Unveiled
IRAQ: $100 Million Reconstruction Fund Unveiled; Exiled Royal Returns http://www.unfoundation.org/unwire/util/display_stories.asp?objid=34208 The U.S. civil administration in Iraq yesterday announced plans for a $100 million investment fund geared to create jobs and jump-start reconstruction projects throughout the country. Considering that the Bush Administration refuses to do similar here in the US, I'm amazed they didn't simply cut taxes in Iraq. Wouldn't that be the same miracle worker there that they insist it will be here? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Where are the European hypocrites?
Hamas is now threatening foreigners in Israel. It has warned them to leave. Obviously, they have no intention of giving a shit who is killed in their attacks - Israeli, Palestinian, Arab, foreigner - it's all the same to them. So where are those scumbag European handwringers who scream whenever Israel does anything that happens to hurt a Palestinian? Does anyone think a single one of them will raise their voice even the tiniest bit to say, Um...that's not very nice of Hamas and we wish they would refrain from indiscriminately bombing? Of course not. If it's not necessarily anti-Semitism to criticize Israeli actions (and I certainly don't think it necessarily is), then what is keeping these filth from criticizing Hamas equally? Now *THAT* I am convinced certainly IS anti-Semitism. (And no semantic games, please, about how the Arabs are themselves Semites. We all know what anti-Semitism means.) Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WMD
Although, admittedly, having asked people who know something about this sort of thing, and read some stuff on how hard it is to find these items, I was probably overoptimistic. But God forbid that a little knowledge or expertise would be injected into this loop. And God forbid that anyone should ever suggest that Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/etc. are anything less than the very living incarnations of Jesus Christ himself... Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
I do wonder, at some point will the credibility of these people just evaporate? I mean, will people say, gee, the people of Iraq _did_ celebrate when we arrived, Saddam _was_ defeated fairly easily, the country _didn't_ collapse into civil war, the museum _wasn't_ looted, and so on - at some point will the media say (as the public already has) that empirical reality and these people's beliefs are, let's be kind, orthogonal? I have no problem admitting all of that. Will the Bush administration ever admit that they cannot find the WMD they swore up and down they knew exactly where they were? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
You know, Tom, given your previous record on predictions in Iraq, do you think you might want to be a little more careful with statements like the above? Just a thought. I mean, if we do find them - and I still think the odds are pretty good that we will - what will you hate Bush foreign policy for then? You mean, you HOPE we will find them. I don't care either way. I'm glad Saddam is gone, and I didn't object to getting rid of him. On the other hand, we were obviously not prepared for what comes next, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. And if we DON'T find WMD - if it turns out they really did cook the intelligence - then what? If they fooled themselves - if they sincerely believed what turns out to be very thin evidence - that does not bode all that well for the future, you know. And if they fooled us - if they knew the evidence was thin but deliberately overstated the case as a pretext for an invasion - that doesn't bode very well either. I know this won't convince any of the huffing-and-puffing Mighty America true believers who dream of an Imperial USA bossing around the rest of the world (for its own good), but the argument that, even if we never find WMD - even if the Bushies really did know beforehand there weren't any - it's okay because we got rid of the big meanie Saddam (with no real preparation for what would replace him) - I don't buy that. If that's truly the reason we invaded - WHY NOT TELL THE TRUTH? Why lie about the WMD? I'm glad Saddam is gone. I've never said otherwise. I'm glad the war itself went smoothly, although the post-war is starting to turn very very nasty. But at what point do you admit there aren't any WMD? You see, Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Powell/Wolfowitz/Perle/etc. said before the invasion that they knew exactly where the WMD were and it was basically a matter of conquering the country and opening up the storage sites to prove to the world. So where are they? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Farts Re: World cancer death rates
In a message dated 6/7/03 5:35:53 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think there are stats on that sort of thing somewhere. I've heard that cow farts account for a measurable percentage of the greenhouse gasses produced. Not cow farts - cow burps produce a lot of methane. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: (Scouted) Jared Diamond on diabetes
If Diamond et.al. are correct then we are doing ourselves a great disservice. We are specializing in a way that generally becomes dangerous for a species. It is possible to become ~too~ adapted. Shouldn't't the word be spread in these cultures that the lifestyle they are shifting to causes type 2? We can avoid the adaption, and retain the very useful thrifty gene Well, I was diagnosed a year and a half ago with Type 2 Diabetes, and I can well and truly attribute it to stupidity. My doctor had been warning me for years to lose weight, and if I had begun to do so when he started warning me, I probably would not be a diabetic today. However, even someone as stupid as me can learn, and I have since joined Weight Watchers and exercise frequently, and have dropped 30 pounds and my blood sugar is in the normal range (high end of the normal range, but still within the desired limits; thanks also to the medication I take every day). I have my eyes and heart checked regularly and so far, no signs of diabetes-related complications. Diabetes is a progressive disease, however, so there is no guarantee that I will not someday suffer complications and/or have to start taking insulin. Still, the longer I can put that off, the better. Also, they may someday discover a cure or at least a better treatment. Type 2 diabetes is, to some extent, avoidable. Excess abdominal fat seems to interfere with insulin usage by the cells. Most Type 2 diabetics, especially if and when diagnosed early on, are still producing plenty of insulin (in fact, some may be producing too much, leading to a later burning out of the pancreas), it just isn't working effectively. Losing weight - especially shedding abdominal fat - decreases this so-called insulin resistance. Regular exercise, in addition to contributing to weight loss, also increases the effectiveness of whatever insulin one is still producing. The key, of course, is catching it early - and then doing what needs to be done. To that extent, some people in the USA are literally eating themselves to death. But it doesn't have to be that way. Not that I'm any paragon, but I've lost weight and increased my activity, and I'm keeping the weight off. If I can do it, believe me, almost anyone can do it. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Supreme Court further dilutes Miranda protections
Alan Wisotsky, an attorney for Oxnard and the police officer who interrogated Martinez, said the court's ruling was a victory for persistent police work. If someone had kidnapped your child, wouldn't you want police doing everything they possibly could to get information from someone who had it? he asked hypothetically. And what if he didn't do it, and they tortured him, and permanently injured him, and meanwhile the real kidnaper got away? And this is not a hypothetical question. There is a serial rapist on the loose in Trenton, and a couple of weeks ago the police arrested and charged a man. They announced that a thorough investigation (details of which were not released) left no doubt that they had the man. Then, two days ago, DNA tests proved conclusively that he could not possibly have been the rapist, and he will be released. Meanwhile, however, he has been fired from his job, his name is absolute mud, his life is essentially ruined - and the real rapist is still on the loose. There is no substitute for painstaking, careful, honest, slow, deliberate police work - no matter how frantic the public may be, no matter how desperate they may be for a quick fix. There is no such thing, and attempts to concoct one always end up making things much worse. And pandering to people's legitimate fears, although it may serve the selfish purposes of right wing scum politicians and right wing filth talk radio bastards, only feeds the public's short term fear and complete misunderstanding of how decent, serious police work is actually done. It can't be rushed. An innocent man has had his life ruined - for nothing. The public is no safer for this having been done - indeed, the public is less safe, as the real rapist is still out there and the trail has gone colder, considering all the time and resources wasted by focusing on the wrong man. A man whom the police claimed to have no doubts was guilty - until they found out he couldn't possibly actually be guilty. You can't let the police get away with cutting corners. No matter how much they and their right wing stooge toadies may bitch and moan about how their hands our tied. They work for us - we should never let them forget that. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Supreme Court further dilutes Miranda protections
Uh. I don't see how the reporter reaches this conclusion. It seems rather obvious that someone's right to not self-incriminate is not violated if that person is never incriminated, whether by one's self or otherwise. So, in other words, as long as you are not a suspect, the police can do anything they want to you? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WMD just a convenient excuse for war, admits Wolfowitz
2) What is wrong with that strategy? It seems to me we are finally doing what is necessary to make the world a better place to live in, even if, especially if, you are a middle eastern Muslim. War is never the best way to solve anything. I do not believe I am mistaken when I say that I think we tried all the better ways. If not, I sure would like to hear what they are. Then why not admit it? Why not tell the truth? Why not just come right out and say that's what they were doing? They were going to be castigated by much of the rest of the world anyway - so why not simply be honest and tell the truth right from the start? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WMD
20,000 soldiers is a hell of a lot, and the US has more urgent/important things to do than sending them traipsing around the Iraqi desert sounds like a pretty good one. Right now, at this moment, the US military is desperately overstretched. There is a 3:1 rule for deployments - to put 20,000 troops on the ground outside the US, you need to have a minimum of 60,000 soldiers dedicated to the job. Force constraints are real, and a major concern of everyone in the defense establishment right now. A) What could possibly be more important than finding the weapons of mass destruction that were the entire justification for the invasion in the first place? Weapons, I might add, that the Bushies claimed to know exactly where they were before the invasion. (In March, Rumsfeld was quoted saying they were in the Tikrit area.) B) We won the war - why are we now so overstretched? Maybe the Bushies underestimated what it would take to win the peace. They appear to have had no real plan for what would happen after the glorious victory, just as they have had little plan for Afghanistan other than going in and quickly declaring victory on the Bush News Channel - oops, sorry, I meant the Fox News Channel. C) If we need more troops, send 'em in. This is no time to be poormouthing things. If we don't have enough troops - why not? How can an occupation be harder to organize than an invasion? D) I'm sure the Bush apologists on this list will have all kinds of excuses for their beloved lord and master. Screwing up the aftermath does not detract from what was a successful military operation. But the point of the operation was not just to be able to declare victory. It was to find Saddam's WMD - which they swore up and down to the entire world existed and which they did claim to know where they were. I'm glad the bastard is out of power, but I'm not glad that there's anarchy in Iraq, and I'm not glad that his WMD can't be found. Where are they? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Geek Test
32.34714% - Total Geek Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Geek Test
In a message dated 5/28/03 12:06:48 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The odd-numbered movies suck, the even-numbered movies are good. To wit: Star Trek I, TPM - Not good. Star Trek III, TSfS - Not good I liked III - the scene where the Enterprise explodes in space and then they cut to Kirk on the ground watching it burn up in the sky is a brilliantly conceived and shot sequence, always brings a tear to my eyes. And Robin Curtis is a much better Saavik than Kirstie Alley (IMNAAHO). Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Geek Test
Interesting that so far nobody on this list is any higher than low 40% Geekiness. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or a good thing... Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: evangelical group tells brit marines to pray for dictator
MARINES facing battle are being asked to pray for President Bush (...) serious Bah. Really religious people should be praying for _Saddam_ too. /serious Reminds me of the line from Fiddler On The Roof: Villager: Rabbi, is there a blessing for the Tsar? Rabbi: A blessing for the Tsar? Of course! May God bless and keep the Tsar...far away from us! I think Saddam is almost past the point where prayer can either help him or change his heart. At a certain point, one must reap what one has sown. A basic tenet of most faiths is that there are consequences for the moral choices one makes (or doesn't make) in one's life. My prayers are with the US armed forces and the innocent civilians of Iraq. What Saddam has done to them over the past 35 or so years almost beggars description. (This is not to argue how he came to power or how at times we may have helped him stay in power.) Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: Re: Peter Arnett has negative effect on ratings
They don't need to match the USA 1:1 for GDP either...just production where it counts (military, etc.) - they'll be prefectly willing to sacrifice civilian standards of life for tactical advantage. They'll be perfectly willing to TRY. I'm not sure they'll be able to get away with it for as long as they would need to in order to mount a serious worldwide challenge. Now, a serious regional challenge (incl., unfortunately, Taiwan) is another matter. Of course, by that point they might be bumping heads with India... Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: evangelical group tells brit marines to pray for dictator
On that note, that should be really religious _Christians_. Judaism has never had any kind of principle for turn the other cheek. It's more an eye for an eye. Except the rabbinical commentators always stated that the law didn't *really* demand such strict retribution. I'm not a Torah or Talmud scholar, but we _can_ turn the other cheek if we want to. But forgiveness requires true repentance, which obviously is not going to happen here. As I said previously, my prayers are for the innocent suffering people of Iraq (as well as for the allied forces attempting to bring some measure of liberation to that country). Saddam Hussein has, by his own malignant efforts, put himself essentially beyond hope of redemption. If prayer could change his heart, it would have happened by now. I'm not wasting my time praying for him or his murderous crew. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .
In a message dated 4/1/03 6:36:36 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yeah, and the was the Embargo! 12 years of siege warfare against Iraq to prevent Saddam from buying weapons, and now we know that the _only_ think that Saddam bought in this period was... weapons. Again, it's a false dichotomy. War or ineffective embargo. Unless you are prepared to argue that NO embargo could EVER have BEEN effective. (Which is a defensible position, given the propensity of some countries (Mr Subliminal mumbles France, Russia here) to break the embargo for their own commercial benefit.) What about another 30 years of siege warfare? The advantage will be that, with the death of all Iraqi children, by 2033 the Iraqi soldiers will be too old to understand how to operate their chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. But what had Saddam been doing recently? Had he invaded anyone? Had he threatened to invade anyone? Had he provably armed any terrorists? Was it impossible for a really intrusive inspections regime to disarm him eff ectively? (Given the recalcitrance of the French, perhaps.) In my opinion, the best way to achieve our aims would have been to patiently build a case against him by letting the inspectors do their job (assisting them to do it) and constructing an international alliance against him. Maybe I'm wrong that any of this would be possible, but I don't think we really tried. I think the Bush administration wanted a war and didn't want to let anything interfere. I'm not against any war anywhere ever. I'm not sure, but I think I'm against this war at this particular moment. However, this is now a moot point. I hope we win, quickly, with minimum damage to Iraq. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Question for those who are anti-war . . .
In a message dated 3/31/03 7:13:43 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In other words - do you reject all preventive actions? In which case it seems to me that your argument is that we should wait until _after_ New York is destroyed to do something. As a New Yorker, I disagree, and not terribly respectfully, actually, if that's your position. But I doubt that it is. So do you really oppose pre-emptive war? Or _this_ pre-emptive war? But this is a false dichotomy - doing nothing or launching war. We _weren't_ doing nothing. You can argue that the inspections were or were not working, but they were _something_. Were they enough? We'll never know now. My feeling was, Saddam is a terrible person and almost certainly was trying to acquire weapons of mass destruction. He needed to be stopped and gotten rid of. But I was not convinced we needed to launch a war _now_. I think the inspections should have been given more time while the US bolstered its case and brought more allies on-board. It is true that the indefensible position of the French (no war ever no matter what) made things more difficult. But if the USA wants to be the leader of the world, sometimes it has to do things the hard way. Sometimes it has to be the adult, and must always be cognizant of others' attitudes and ideas, even if it doesn't agree with them. In general, I'm anti-war. I don't see how anyone can be anything else. In some particular cases, I may be in favor of a particular war. In this case, I'm still not convinced that this was the only way to go or that this was the time to go this way. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
