Re: [EVDL] Lead Acid charging...(trickle overcharging?)

[dovepa via EV]

Isn't that what a trickle charger does? I know lots of people who leave them on 
all the time.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
 Date: 6/12/16  4:28 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead Acid 
charging...(trickle overcharging?) 
New question.

What happens when you might forever overcharge a CAR battery with 30 mA
(during daylight).

I added an unregulated solar panel that typically produces only 30 mA to a
very remote cabin car battery deep in the woods.  The charge rate will give
a 2 hour per week use of the lights.

But what happens if no one uses the cabin for months?  NiCd's can absorb
such small overcharge, but I assume Lead Acid will everntully be dried out?

Lets assume the car battery is 30 Amp hours.  Therefor the daylight trickle
charge is at a 0.001C rate.  Probably barely makes up for self discharge.

OK, now add in the fact that for maybe an hour a day, the sun will directly
hit the panel and the charge will be 500 mA

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Had the i3 design vision been better it could have competed with the Tesla-3 EV

[dovepa via EV]

Blah blah blah...
Any new technology takes time for people to come around. They are afraid of new 
things and always go for the tried and true path. Few people travel the road 
less trodden. They are called innovators.
Cell phones went through the same thing. then it seemed like suddenly 
everyone had one. Same thing will happen here. They will make plenty with 
plenty of options when people start buying.
It may be the young generation like my grandsons who grow riding in mine.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: brucedp5 via EV  
Date: 6/10/16  2:49 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 
Had the i3 design vision been better it could have
  competed with the Tesla-3 EV 


'BMW Can't Do Electric AND Autonomous, i Range Will Focus on the Latter'

% Anti-sales i3 styling, cramped interior, no 200mi range upgrade path,
(+more) %

http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2016/6/5/Straight-To-The-Crusher-BMW-Could-Have-Killed-The-Tesla-Model-3-If-It-Made-The-i3-Any-Good-7733863/
Straight To The Crusher: BMW Could Have Killed The Tesla Model 3 If It Made
The i3 Any Good
2016/06/05  Gabe Beita Kiser

[images  
http://db.carbuzz.com/images2/57/5000/0/575063.jpg

http://db.carbuzz.com/images2/57/5000/0/575065.jpg

http://db.carbuzz.com/images2/57/5000/0/575066.jpg
]

"If you set the bar too low, at least you won't have to be let down," should
not be a motto that BMW adopts. Right now, electric cars are going through a
rough time. In the late 2000s, gas prices indicated that we’d all be driving
cars fueled by electricity plants by now, but that isn’t the case. Instead,
EV sales are below levels that experts predicted they would be at, but
what’s to blame for this? One of the most commonly cited explanations is
that gas is cheaper than it used to be, so fuel economy ratings are again
something that only those who watched Al Gore’s “An Inconvenient Truth” care
about.

However, this doesn’t explain why buyers are turning up their noses at cars
that require minimal maintenance, minuscule running costs, and the
gratification that their purchase just bought a polar bear some extra time.
A reason that’s easier to chew on is the fact that most available electric
cars have not advanced as quickly as consumers wanted them to. One major
issue is range. It’s true that the lion’s share of drivers put less than 100
miles on their cars per day, but when faced with the decision, most people
would chose the option that allows them the greatest amount of freedom
however sparingly it will be used. Then there’s the question of cost. Many
electric cars simply cost a whole lot more than their gas-powered
counterparts.

The cheapest new electric car you can buy in the US is the Mitsubishi
i-MiEV, which retails for about $22,000. However, the car’s no frills
package and disconcertingly small size means that similarly priced cars like
the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic easily better the iMiEV by all measures.
Range and price competition aren't the only two facets of EV existence that
make most battery-powered cars a step down taken only by noble climate
change crusaders. There is also a condition that plagues EVs that we'll call
futurism syndrome. No one really knows why, but most automakers with EV
options feel the need to make them look like Furbys from the future. The
less creature comforts the car has, the more likely it is to don a “please
love me” face.

Then, as the price and the number of niceties outfitted to the E car rises,
designers change the styling to that of a cocky alien. These demerits are
exactly why the BMW i3 is a car that should wander into a crusher.
Conceptually, the i3 was the little EV that could. It had all the potential
in the world and BMW squandered it. BMW could have designed a car that would
put a massive dent in the number of Tesla Model 3 preorders, but instead it
chose to make a science experiment. While Tesla is still grasping to find
just how the hell it will build half a million Model 3s, the i3 stays in
dealership lots with few interested buyers. In 2015, BMW sold 24,057 i3s
worldwide. By comparison, BMW sold 140,609 3 Series units in the US alone.

Of course it's a bit unfair to compare a brand new model to an established
and hugely popular marquee, but BMW should have higher ambitions than making
the i3 just another alternative to the rest of the electric car lineup. If
the Bavarian motor company wants people to take electric cars seriously, it
needs to make them compete with regular cars in the same way that Tesla is
doing. BMW could have stuck with a traditional design, much like that of the
practical and popular 3 Series sedan. A line of EVs with conservative
styling could have helped many consumers cross the bridge from gas-powered
cars to the electric car family. If the i3 had styling that everyone could
love, it would speak to BMW's current customers who chose gasoline options.

When BMW sticks 

Re: [EVDL] Golf cart controllers

[dovepa via EV]

www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/pds.pdf
Maybe this manual will help.
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: John Lussmyer via EV 
 Date: 6/9/16  10:41 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: [EVDL] Golf cart controllers 
So, my old golf cart with a Curtis 1206 recently died.  As far as I can tell, 
the controller failed.
I found I have a Curtis 73326G07 controller I picked up some time ago, but I 
have some questions about using it.
A) Will it work without the speed sensor?  (if not, can I get one?)
B) The wiring diagram shows what looks like a pair of SPST switches connected 
to J3, but labeled as "Logic Supply" with +/-.
Is that actually a power supply?  If so ,what voltages?  Do they have to be 
isolated from each other? From the pack?


--
Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] Ebike motors

[dovepa via EV]

Was the old motor a brushed DC motor? If so then yes, you need an inverter for 
a BLDC motor.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Willie2 via EV  
Date: 6/9/16  9:24 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ebike motors 
On 06/09/2016 09:11 PM, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
> Willie,
> did the old motor connect with 2 wires (red+ and black-)
> or 3 wires (phases)? And the new motor?
I'll take a look tomorrow.  I suppose a different number of wires means 
changing the controller.

The new kit has the thing that can be used to require pedaling. "PAS", I 
think.  Since my hands/wrists don't like to keep the throttle held open, 
I thinking of using the PAS.  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?


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Re: [EVDL] Modified Sine Wave Heating

[dovepa via EV]

I am no expert on electric blankets but isn't it just a resistive heating 
element? As long as the controller doesn't have a timer that cuts it on and off 
it shouldn't care what sort of power is connected. A modified sine wave will 
change the output of a crystal oscillator so if one is used in a timer it would 
not work right but I doubt blankets are that complicated.
Should work just fine IMO.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Bill Dennis via EV  
Date: 6/3/16  11:39 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' 
 Subject: [EVDL] Modified Sine Wave Heating 
I've see Lee Hart's description of using an electric blanket under a battery
pack for heating.  Does anyone know if the controllers for these blankets
will work with a modified sine wave inverter?  That is, if the blanket's
little control unit that allows you do adjust the heat setting and has an
automatic shut-off timer will work if powered by a modified sine wave
inverter.

Thanks,

Bill Dennis 

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Re: [EVDL] Ground Faults

[dovepa via EV]

Could you be a little more detailed? You disconnected everything from what? 
Each other? The battery pack? Etc?   If you have a series wound DC motor then 
carbon build up from the brushes can create a path.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: John Lussmyer via EV 
 Date: 6/1/16  7:35 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: [EVDL] Ground Faults 
Well, I've discovered that my truck has a ground fault of some kind in it 
somewhere.
For a long time, I've been charging off the Welder outlet in my shop.  I 
recently installed a nice big 240v 60A GFCI breaker for a charging outlet at 
the house.
The GFCI trips every time I try to charge.  It doesn't trip if I plug a welder 
into the outlet.

Poking around the pack with a voltmeter, I get some solid voltage readings to 
the frame of the truck.
So, I started disconnecting things.  Disconnected everything except the charger 
(kinda need that!).
Still trips the GFCI.
Still getting weak voltage readings from various points in the pack.  (Not 
always consistent, not always constant.)

Running out of ideas...

--
Worlds only All Electric F-250 truck! 
http://john.casadelgato.com/Electric-Vehicles/1995-Ford-F-250
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Re: [EVDL] Faraday Future: a Billionare.cn funded .com trolling for Tesla-wannabe investment$

[dovepa via EV]

Well, I am of the opinion that the technology is less important than the person 
or persons behind the project. Most EV companies go out of business due to 
management. They get some government money and develop a product that has no 
market. When the government money runs out the go into chapter 11.
Tesla made it because Elon saw a market waiting to be filled. Wealthy people 
who want to be green and I am not sure Tesla is profitable yet.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: brucedp5 via EV  
Date: 5/28/16  4:34 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] 
Faraday Future: a Billionare.cn funded .com trolling for
  Tesla-wannabe investment$ 


[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/What-about-Faraday-Future-tp4682227.html
What about Faraday Future?
From: Gail Lucas
Date: Fri, 27 May 2016 ...
1-Does anyone have an opinion on Faraday Future? 

2-They are planning a large EV manufacturing plant in North Las Vegas, with
help from the state. 

3-They appear to be representing themselves as another Tesla but do not 
yet seem to have a vehicle prototype, only exciting drawings. 

4-They are also working on building a manufacturing plant in CA. 

5-Usually there is a lot of discussion on this list if an EV looks promising
and I am 
wondering if there was and I missed it. 

6-Do any of you resident EV experts know anything about Faraday?

7-Nevada State Treasurer Dan Schwartz was on KNPR recently and expressed 
some doubt about the company, which is what prompted me to send this 
message.
http://knpr.org/knpr/2016-05/nv-treasurer-questions-faradays-future
]


[Warning: I had a yummy Indonesian iced coffee today (can you say
espresso?), so I am both sugar and caffeine buzzed right now (perhaps not a
good thing for a person with a heart condition, and I likely will have a
tough time getting to sleep tonight).  *Some of the following is OT for the
evdl.org]


1 & 7- % Opinion? or the lack of one? IMO the Bottom Line: 
Because of FFuture's secrecy, and lack of any tangible EV production
evidence, there really isn't anything to grab a hold of to form an opinion,
but that void leaves plenty of room for EV fear mongering which PBS is
famous for. 

So many times over the many years I have been following the media outlets,
have I seen PBS tout their backward views on EV-things they really knew
nothing about. In the 1990's, there were PBS reports with EV-thinking (facts
and factoids) from the 1950's.

In the 2000's when there was something to be concerned about (with GM
flaunting the loophole so that they could just sell/give-away golf-carts to
satisfy the CARB requirement, and later how OIl/Auto kicked the teeth out of
CARB, and got the GW's backing to slam CARB via the EPA). No, PBS just
talked like EVs were back in the 1960's, rather than how bad things were at
that time, who was the cause and why (they did not want to rock the
Big-Boy's boat). 

When it got close to the 2010 launch of production EVs, PBS still had
archaic backward views and opinions that only spewed their EV ignorance,
even though they should have had plenty of time to do proper journalism. 

For a media outlet that touts themselves as being so professional, that
their journalism can not be questioned, they have blown it too many times
for me to see anything from them about EVs except what stirs the pot (like
this, fear-mongering without any facts ... ). %


2- % Yup ... %

http://www.rgj.com/story/money/business/2016/05/25/faraday-start-moving-staff-equipment-north-las-vegas/84884990/
Faraday to start moving staff, equipment to North Las Vegas
May 24, 2016 NORTH LAS VEGAS - Electric carmaker Faraday Future says it's
moving heavy equipment and a handful of employees to North Las Vegas early
next month ... Faraday says it will move six workers to a new office located
in the North Las Vegas City Hall building, with a plan to have 30 employees
there by the end of the year. State lawmakers met in December to authorize
up to $335 million in tax incentives and infrastructure improvements for the
company and its future home at Apex Industrial Park. A state board last week
approved spending $500,000 to start a program to train future Faraday
factory workers ...

http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-Faraday-cn-picks-N-Las-Vegas-NV-to-open-1B-U-S-EV-plant-tp4679153.html
EVLN: Faraday.cn picks N.Las_Vegas-NV to open $1B U.S. EV plant
Dec 11, 2015


3- % Another prototype shown %

http://www.readingeagle.com/drivetime/article/chinese-firm-behind-faraday-future-unveils-first-sedan-type-electric-vehicle
Chinese firm behind Faraday Future unveils first sedan-type electric vehicle
May 1, 2016 ... BEIJING - LeEco, the Chinese company behind the secretive
automaker Faraday Future, unveiled its first mainstream-model car April 20
in Beijing: a sleek, white four-door electric sedan with suicide doors
called the LeSEE.

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper

[dovepa via EV]

I don't see a need to eliminate the internal combustion engine. Most of the CO2 
comes from burning coal. According to the EPA only 14% comes from 
transportation. All forms of transportation together road, rail, air and marine.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Peri Hartman via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Date: 5/13/16  4:13 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Mike Beem <beemik...@gmail.com>, EVDL 
Administrator <evp...@drmm.net>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
<ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her 
LiO2 (fluffy
  carbon) battery paper 
The range problem definitely does exist.  How are you going to get rid 
of ICE vehicles for long range travel if you can only go 100 miles or so 
per charge?  Even 200 miles.

This has nothing to do with the vehicle you might use for everyday 
commuting and errands.  Yes, 100 miles is almost always plenty for that. 
  And, yes, you can rent something if you want to go long range.

But we're talking about getting ICE vehicles off the road.  That long 
range vehicle needs to go 300-400 miles on a charge to be practical.  
Some have to be built and there needs to be high wattage charging 
stations along the interstates and major highways.  And, another factor, 
if only a small percentage are built, economy of scale won't work and 
they will be quite expensive.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Mike Beem via EV" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: "EVDL Administrator" <evp...@drmm.net>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: 13-May-16 2:06:31 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy 
carbon) battery paper

>>  They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
>
>>Most of us on the EVDL have been saying this for years -- that 100 
>>miles of
>range is plenty for almost anyone.
>
>Well stated, both of you! I definitely am ready for that 100 mile 
>range,
>having over the years never had more than my current 40 mile range 
>pack.
>However, it still does carry me for more than 95% of the miles I drive 
>most
>months. I do have a 3/4 ton diesel pick up truck for pulling my dump
>trailer, and hauling any any loads too heavy, large or messy for the EV
>Escort, but with its roof rack I have carried ladders, lumber etc. for 
>much
>of what I do; and the truck generally gets driven less than 500 mile 
>per
>year, so its contribution to ICE pollution is as minimal as I can make 
>it.
>Having now sold off or given away all of my remaining EV projects, I 
>know
>that I am probably driving my last home made EV, but it still has 5 1/2
>years to go to finish my experiment=can I drive a conversion EV on one
>lithium pack with a total investment of $1 for 10 years? (not 
>including
>tires or brakes).
>Time will tell, but so far, I have seen no degradation in range or 
>power.
>Michael B
>
>On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:45 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
>ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>>  On 13 May 2016 at 6:31, dovepa via EV wrote:
>>
>>  > They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
>>
>>  Most of us on the EVDL have been saying this for years -- that 100 
>>miles of
>>  range is plenty for almost anyone.
>>
>>  It's true, but outside of EV hobbyists, hardly anyone believes it.   
>>The
>>  public perception is that they need range close to what they get on a
>>  tankful of gasoline now.
>>
>>  We know that "range anxiety" is a myth.  But "journalists" keep 
>>hammering
>>  at
>>  it, and the public buys it.  So to them, it's real.
>>
>>  We can educate these folks until we drop from exhaustion and it won't
>>  change
>>  more than a couple of their minds.   We can even have them track 
>>their
>>  weekly mileage.  It makes no difference.
>>
>>  Vehicle buyers demand long range, just in case they ever need it.  
>>It's the
>>  same attitude that makes people buy huge pickup trucks and drive 
>>their
>>  clunky, awkward 18-mpg beasts year in and year out, even if they only 
>>haul
>>  something big once a year (or less).
>>
>>  Perception is reality.  It doesn't pay to fight it.  What does pay is
>>  asking
>>  people who actually buy vehicles what they need, listening to them, 
>>and
>>  then
>>  building and offering for sale an EV that meets those perceived
>>  requirements
>>  and needs, whether they're real needs or not.
>>
>>  David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>  EVDL Administrator
>>
>>  = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  EVDL In

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper

[dovepa via EV]

Seems to me there would be some technical difficulties to overcome as well. You 
just posted an article about a college professor and his students doing this. 
Only they used removable nodules in parallel which solves many of the issues. 


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
 Date: 5/13/16  8:37 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey 
defending her LiO2 (fluffy
carbon) battery paper 
Doing some dreaming here: wouldn't it be cool if you could buy the range you 
needed when you needed it?  It'd be kind of like buying $5 worth of gas, or 
filling the tank.  

Suppose EVs had fully interchangeable, standardized, leased battery modules 
that could be swapped out in minutes.  When you wanted to take a trip, you'd 
go to a swapping station and swap your (possibly flat) battery of, say, 10 
modules (100 miles range) for a fully-charged 30 module battery (300 miles 
range).  You'd get billed more for it, of course.  

After your trip, you'd returnk to the swapping station and exchange your 30-
module battery for another 10-module one.  You'd go back to your 100 mile 
range, which would be plenty for your daily commute.

I know all the potential pitfalls and downsides of battery exchange and 
leasing, but still ... having (and paying for) exactly the range you need 
would be really nice, don't you think?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper

[dovepa via EV]

I am saying that if you got the energy efficiency of a  Tesla you would need a 
120kwh battery to go 400 miles at least and maybe more.
A Tesla charger they say on 110V outlet you get 5 miles range an hour or 80 
hours to charge and on 220 V you get 30miles of range an hour 13 hours to 
charge. On dual 220 volt chargers you get 60 miles an hour 6.5 hours to charge 
and on a supercharger you get 300 miles range in an hour or an hour and 20 
minutes to charge.
So, without a Tesla you options are diminished in charging options and your 
best bet is a chademo at 60kw per hour.
And how often do you drive 400 miles and do you want to wait that long to 
charge? 
We might go over 80 miles in a day four or 5 times a year and over 400 miles in 
a day say once or twice a year. Most people I know you BTW don't even own an 
electric car will rent a car for long trips so as to avoid car problems. Got an 
issue call the rental company.
They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. 




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: EVDL Administrator via EV 
 Date: 5/12/16  10:20 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey 
defending her LiO2 (fluffy
carbon) battery paper 
On 12 May 2016 at 6:21, Paul Dove via EV wrote:

> You would need 150kw battery or so. You can't get that kind of power
> out of the grid ...

I wouldn't be so sure of that.  Three modern houses have a maximum power 
capacity of 144kW, within hailing distance of 150kW.   

Admittedly it's pretty unusual for a house to max out its service, and for 3 
in a neighborhood to do so would be really extraordinary.  But consider that 
some "mcmansions" have 96kW service.  I'm sure they wouldn't have paid the 
extra installation bill for that big a service if they weren't exceeding 
48kW on a regular basis.  (That's a staggering amount of power for any one 
family to be sucking from the grid, BTW.)

Or are you perhaps mixing up kWh and kW, and expecting to charge a 150kWh 
battery in less than an hour?  In that case you would need more than 150kW. 
That's a different problem, but I wouldn't call it impossible to solve.

> and how often would you need to drive 400 miles. 

Any time you go on a long trip.

Another way of looking at this is that every time we increase range, the 
customer moves the goalposts (to mix metaphors).  As soon as most EVs have 
300 mile range, they'll insist they need 400 miles, and so on.  I doubt that 
any of them will be satisfied until EVs have as much range as ICEVs and can 
be "refueled" at least as quickly.  Even then they'll no doubt find some 
other reason that EVs just aren't good enough.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Upgraded 2016 Tesla-S 90D is the first 300mi/483kmproduction Electric car

[dovepa via EV]

While that's awesome I must admit it doesn't translate to everyday driving 
because we spend 80% of the time driving and 10% slowing down or less. I think 
Tesla only advertises 10% recovery from regen under normal driving


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: tomw via EV  Date: 
5/4/16  9:10 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 
Upgraded 2016 Tesla-S 90D is the first
  300mi/483kmproduction Electric car 
A few years back Drag Times reported these results on a Tesla S in the
quarter mile:

"As you can see in the video below the Tesla’s total energy consumption was
1.1 kWh at 114 MPH and after the car slowed down using the regenerative
braking .6 kWh was put back into the battery. This results in a net energy
usage of .5 kWh for the 1/4 mile pass. Pretty amazing that the car can
recover just over half of energy used and put it back into the battery using
it’s regenerative braking."

http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-...usage-and-cost

This agrees with the range of vehicle ke recouped by regen that I have
measured on my car by data logging battery current and voltage, taking their
product to estimate power, and dividing by the 1 sec time between samples to
estimate energy into/out of the pack during deceleration and acceleration.

Also a few years ago I estimated the percentage of energy expended driving
on level ground recouped by regen with the simplifications that deceleration
rate = acceleration rate, and the vehicle travels at constant speed between
stops.  Note that this assumes the vehicle is brought to a stop using only
regen, no mechanical braking, which may not be the case with some
manufactured EVs. I put this in a spreadsheet and did "what if" scenarios
varying things like vehicle mass and speed between start/stops each by a
factor of 3 to estimate relative effects.  See the summary of these below
the "examples".  The equation used is given for those who have an interest:

The percentage of the energy expended driving the car on level ground that
is regained through regen =
energy gained by regen/(energy used at constant speed + energy used to
accelerate), or:

n*(K.E. – L)/ [(d – 2*n*x) * (Fd + Fr) + n*(K.E. + L)], for 2*n*x < d

Where:
n = number of acceleration/deceleration cycles, L = sum of average losses
(need to average if travel at different constant speeds between stops, i.e.
loss at 35 mph, loss at 50 mph… just assume one constant speed between stops
for simplicity)
d is total distance traveled
x is the distance required to accelerate or decelerate to/from speed, so
total distance driven at constant speed is d – 2nx assuming the same rate
for acceleration and deceleration, and same constant speed between each
acceleration and deceleration for simplicity.

Examples:
(1) My car accelerates at 6 mph/sec to 60 mph, drives 10 miles, then
decelerates at the same rate to a stop, estimated percent energy regained
is: 2.7%

(2) Acceleration at 6 mph/sec to 35 mph and deceleration at same rate 10
times in 10 miles:12.7%

(3) Acceleration at 6 mph/sec to 35 mph and deceleration at same rate 20
times in 10 miles:20.7%

A more typical acceleration/deceleration rate might be 3 mph/sec, or 1.34
m/s (0 to 60 mph in 20 sec). Then the same three scenarios give 2.4%, 12%,
and 20%, so a factor of 2 slower rate doesn’t change the result that much.
At 2 mph/sec acceleration/deceleration rate the three scenarios give 2.2%,
11%, and 19%.

Increasing total miles traveled, d, to 30 in scenario (1) gives 0.9%.
Increasing stops in this scenario to 3, with 30 miles total, gives 2.7%.

Increasing vehicle mass increases the percentage of energy recovered, but
it’s a small effect for larger number of stop/starts. For example the first
scenario goes from 2.7% to 3.8%, second goes from 12.7% to 14.7%, third goes
from 20.7% to 23.2% if vehicle mass is doubled.  *So I would expect the
Tesla S to recover a bit higher proportion of total energy expended than my
much lighter vehicle.*

Decreasing losses in the motor/controller and drive train of course
increases the energy recovered. For example, decreasing motor/controller
loss to 15% in scenario (2) increases the energy gained from 12.7% to 16.5%.

Increasing drag coefficient or area, A, reduces percentage of energy
recovered, but it too is a small effect.
*

The largest effect is the constant speed between stop/starts.*  Varying this
from 10 to 35 mph results in a change in proportion of energy regained by a
factor of about 2.5.  So in heavy traffic that is creeping along at 10 mph
or less, proportion of expended energy regained will be very small, and
likely less than zero with climate control on.

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View this message in context: 
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: ?L3 quick charging or pack swaps, on long EV trips? (v)

[dovepa via EV]

He says: 
Imagine that now you're driving your car, and let's say its 40 percent or
50 percent empty," de Callafon said. "You would have to charge it. Here you
could actually take, if you have 10 modules in your car, and take five out —
those are the ones that are empty — and put five in and you're completely
replenished."
-So, he is using all the modules at once to power the vehicle.
De Callafon is developing a control system that'll manage groups of batteries. 
The modules can be older and newer. They can be full or partially
empty. His system will allow different batteries to work together to feed an 
electric motor.
-So, all the modules feed the motor not just one at a time. The control system 
manages power from the modules.
The car has more than a dozen individual battery modules that work together
to feed the engine. Each can be pulled out and replaced in less than a
minute.
Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: brucedp5 via EV  
Date: 5/1/16  6:07 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 
?L3 quick charging or pack swaps, on long EV trips? (v) 


http://www.kpbs.org/news/2016/apr/27/protopye-electric-car-could-point-way-future/
Prototype Electric Car Could Point The Way To The Future
April 27, 2016  Erik Anderson

[video  flash


audio
https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/audio/2016/04/27/20160427-SEA-CARBAT.mp3
Aired 4/27/16 on KPBS Radio News  UC San Diego engineers plan to put an
electric car through a challenging cross-country journey. They're covering a
2,500-mile trip in less than two days, which can't be done with current
battery technology

https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/audio/2016/04/27/160427-Car_Battery-Midday.mp3
Aired 4/27/16 on KPBS Midday Edition  Guest: Erik Anderson, KPBS reporter


http://www.kpbs.org/audioclips/29177/#transcript
transcript


image
https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2016/04/21/battery_modules_t700.jpg?f40c0e74b997dbb01ce524758e0d04a31382c8af
Modular batteries in the rear of Lou Shrinkle's electric Volkswagen car,
April 11, 2016  / Matthew Bowler
]

UC San Diego engineers plan to put an electric car through a challenging
cross-country journey. They're covering a 2,500-mile trip in less than two
days, which can't be done with current battery technology.

Lou Shrinkle's Volkswagen looks like any other passenger car of its kind.
But it's different: Every time he turns on the ignition, an annoying alarm
goes off. The car warns the retired engineer that there's a problem with the
engine.

"Of course, there is," Shrinkle said, laughing as he examined his car
earlier in April. "There's a fuel system problem."

The vehicle's diagnostic system was telling him it couldn't find the proper
engine fluids, which wasn't surprising to Shrinkle — the internal combustion
engine has been removed and replaced with an electrical power plant.

That isn't unusual, but how the car stores its fuel is unique.

Shrinkle stood by the backdoor of the car and peeked inside. He leaned in
and grabbed a suitcase-sized box.

"OK, pulling the module connectors," Shrinkle said. He grabbed hold of the
heavy battery so it slides out of the car. "Now this module contains 48
lithium, iron, phosphate batteries. It weighs about 30 pounds. Again, that's
about twice as heavy as it needs to be."

The car has more than a dozen individual battery modules that work together
to feed the engine. Each can be pulled out and replaced in less than a
minute.

"Back in," Shrinkle said as he popped a clamp into place with a loud pop.
"And it's now engaged."

That modular battery system makes this car completely different from other
electric cars.

Most electric vehicles typically rely on one large battery, tucked away
under the passenger seats or in the trunk, to store the energy needed for
propulsion. That battery may need to be charged overnight, or with a fast
charger be fueled up in a couple of hours.

Demand for a new business model
It is a business model that doesn't make sense to UC San Diego Engineering
professor Raymond de Callafon, who's developing a new system that's going to
be tested on Shrinkle's car this summer.

Callafon called the reliance on refueling a single battery impractical. De
Callafon said fast charging isn't a solution because speeding up how fast a
battery can be refilled requires more energy.

De Callafon thinks swapping battery modules goes a long way toward
eliminating the refueling dilemma.

"Imagine that now you're driving your car, and let's say its 40 percent or
50 percent empty," de Callafon said. "You would have to charge it. Here you
could actually take, if you have 10 modules in your car, and take five out —
those are the ones that are empty — and put five in and you're completely
replenished."

The system could operate like it does for propane fuel tanks used to fuel
backyard grills, de Callafon said. Empty batteries could be exchanged for
fully-charged 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: ?L3 quick charging or pack swaps, on long EV trips? (v)

[dovepa via EV]

Sounded to me like he pulled current from them all based on their soc but I am 
not sure how one could pull that trick off. 


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Peri Hartman via EV  
Date: 5/1/16  11:27 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: robert winfield 
, brucedp5 , ev@lists.evdl.org, 
Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 
?L3 quick charging or pack swaps,
on long EV trips? (v) 
I don't think they did the same thing.  I think Better Place did what 
Tesla is doing - allowing the entire battery to be swapped.  Shrinkle 
divided his battery into 12 smaller batteries and is, if I understand 
correctly, only drawing energy from one of the batteries at a time.  
Thus you only need to swap the depleted ones, not the entire set of 12.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "robert winfield via EV" 
To: "brucedp5" ; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 

Sent: 01-May-16 8:56:39 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: ?L3 quick charging or pack swaps, on long EV 
trips? (v)

>didn't Better Place try this out in Israel?
>
>   From: brucedp5 via EV 
>  To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>  Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 7:07 AM
>  Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: ?L3 quick charging or pack swaps, on long EV 
>trips? (v)
>
>
>
>http://www.kpbs.org/news/2016/apr/27/protopye-electric-car-could-point-way-future/
>Prototype Electric Car Could Point The Way To The Future
>April 27, 2016  Erik Anderson
>
>[video  flash
>
>
>audio
>https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/audio/2016/04/27/20160427-SEA-CARBAT.mp3
>Aired 4/27/16 on KPBS Radio News  UC San Diego engineers plan to put an
>electric car through a challenging cross-country journey. They're 
>covering a
>2,500-mile trip in less than two days, which can't be done with current
>battery technology
>
>https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/audio/2016/04/27/160427-Car_Battery-Midday.mp3
>Aired 4/27/16 on KPBS Midday Edition  Guest: Erik Anderson, KPBS 
>reporter
>
>
>http://www.kpbs.org/audioclips/29177/#transcript
>transcript
>
>
>image
>https://kpbs.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/photos/2016/04/21/battery_modules_t700.jpg?f40c0e74b997dbb01ce524758e0d04a31382c8af
>Modular batteries in the rear of Lou Shrinkle's electric Volkswagen 
>car,
>April 11, 2016  / Matthew Bowler
>]
>
>UC San Diego engineers plan to put an electric car through a 
>challenging
>cross-country journey. They're covering a 2,500-mile trip in less than 
>two
>days, which can't be done with current battery technology.
>
>Lou Shrinkle's Volkswagen looks like any other passenger car of its 
>kind.
>But it's different: Every time he turns on the ignition, an annoying 
>alarm
>goes off. The car warns the retired engineer that there's a problem 
>with the
>engine.
>
>"Of course, there is," Shrinkle said, laughing as he examined his car
>earlier in April. "There's a fuel system problem."
>
>The vehicle's diagnostic system was telling him it couldn't find the 
>proper
>engine fluids, which wasn't surprising to Shrinkle — the internal 
>combustion
>engine has been removed and replaced with an electrical power plant.
>
>That isn't unusual, but how the car stores its fuel is unique.
>
>Shrinkle stood by the backdoor of the car and peeked inside. He leaned 
>in
>and grabbed a suitcase-sized box.
>
>"OK, pulling the module connectors," Shrinkle said. He grabbed hold of 
>the
>heavy battery so it slides out of the car. "Now this module contains 48
>lithium, iron, phosphate batteries. It weighs about 30 pounds. Again, 
>that's
>about twice as heavy as it needs to be."
>
>The car has more than a dozen individual battery modules that work 
>together
>to feed the engine. Each can be pulled out and replaced in less than a
>minute.
>
>"Back in," Shrinkle said as he popped a clamp into place with a loud 
>pop.
>"And it's now engaged."
>
>That modular battery system makes this car completely different from 
>other
>electric cars.
>
>Most electric vehicles typically rely on one large battery, tucked away
>under the passenger seats or in the trunk, to store the energy needed 
>for
>propulsion. That battery may need to be charged overnight, or with a 
>fast
>charger be fueled up in a couple of hours.
>
>Demand for a new business model
>It is a business model that doesn't make sense to UC San Diego 
>Engineering
>professor Raymond de Callafon, who's developing a new system that's 
>going to
>be tested on Shrinkle's car this summer.
>
>Callafon called the reliance on refueling a single battery impractical. 
>De
>Callafon said fast charging isn't a solution because speeding up how 
>fast a
>battery can be refilled requires more energy.
>
>De Callafon thinks swapping battery modules goes a long way toward
>eliminating the refueling dilemma.
>
>"Imagine that now you're driving 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leaf-now ad sez why wait for Tesla-3

[dovepa via EV]

I looked at one last weekend. It was 39,000 not 35,000 and it's a Leaf not a 
Tesla. 
When are the going to realize it matters how you treat customers?


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: brucedp5 via EV  
Date: 4/27/16  2:31 AM  (GMT-07:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 
Leaf-now ad sez why wait for Tesla-3 


http://www.hybridcars.com/nissan-leaf-ad-takes-a-shot-at-tesla-model-3/
Nissan Leaf Ad Takes a Shot At Tesla Model 3
April 22, 2016  Jeff Cobb

[images  
http://www.hybridcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Leaf_advert-668x409.jpg
(leaf ad - why wait)

http://www.hybridcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/tesla-model-3-tax-incentives-668x4091.jpg
The industry has not seen anything like this. Controversial ads play on the
belief that any press is good press
]

If you are one of the 400,000 people or so who’ve plunked down $1,000 to
reserve Tesla’s 215-mile range $35,000 Model 3, Nissan has good news for
you: You don’t have to wait!

Of course many already knew that of the Japanese automaker’s electric car
now being nursed along in its sixth model year and currently offering 107
miles range for just over $35,000 – less $4,000 cash back – but Nissan’s ad
campaign makes the point just the same.

“Why wait when you can drive an all-electric Leaf now?” poses Nissan’s
advert launched in today’s New York Times, Los Angeles Times, USA Today and
The Wall Street Journal. “And why drop $1,000 to stand in line when you can
get $4,000 cash back and best-in-class range?”

True is it is an EV now, and leasing is an option as well. Also true is in
six-eight months from now, if one is thinking of getting an EV sooner, the
2017 Chevy Bolt will be available with over 200 miles range.

Nissan’s CEO Carlos Ghosn has also said to expect a second generation Leaf
with competitive range, though no images or other details of this have yet
been revealed.

Since coming to market for 2011, the Leaf has become the world’s
best-selling plug-in vehicle with over 200,000 sold – about half of the
Model 3’s reservation list. It received a range increase in 2013 from an
original 73 miles to 84, and in 2016 its range was upped to 107 for the SV
and SL trim packages, with 84-miles range still specified for the base S
model.

Last year the Leaf’s U.S. sales declined 43 percent to 17,269 units sold.
During 2016’s first quarter, sales have declined 28 percent to 2,931 units.

The company has long offered relatively inexpensive lease deals, now
mentions 0 percent APR for up to 72 months, $4,000 cash back, and also
offers “No Charge to Charge” providing free public access charging for two
years.

And perhaps to capitalize on the mind share of all the people looking to
Tesla, its ad chides the California upstart and people waiting.

Tesla has said the vehicle could get here by late 2017, others have
suggested 2018, 2019, and analysts have even projected some standing in line
now won’t get their Model 3 before 2020. But even if Tesla defies the
bearish and releases the car early, Nissan says it can deliver instant
gratification.

“No one should have any reservations about getting an electric car today,”
says Nissan of its car available now.
[© hybridcars.com]




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (Why?) Nissan sez it is 'Tesla-3 Stoked' ...

[dovepa via EV]

In apiece entitled “A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric“, maps out all the 
reservations held by traditional car dealers and their parent OEMs in selling 
plug-ins to the US consumer.Chevrolet announces Tuesday, July 27, 2010 the 2011 
Chevy Volt electric vehicle with extended range capability will go on sale with 
a Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price starting at $41,000.(Photo by Martin 
Klimek for Chevrolet)And it all starts from the top. Former chairman of the 
National Automobile Dealers Association (NADA), Forrest McConnell, famously 
made a speech stating that tougher fuel-economy regulations pushing plug-ins 
were making consumers eat broccoli when in reality they wanted “low-calories 
doughnuts”, by which he meant more fuel-efficient gas cars – kind of like what 
they (the dealers of America) were already 
selling.http://insideevs.com/report-car-dealers-holding-back-ev-sales-america/
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Mark Abramowitz via EV  Date: 4/12/2016  10:00 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Rush Dougherty , ev@lists.evdl.org 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (Why?) Nissan sez it is 'Tesla-3 Stoked' ... 
Actually, I’m not giving up yet that there’s data on this, if it’s true. It was 
Tom that posted that there was data, and he hasn’t responded.


On April 12, 2016 at 7:57:48 PM, Mark Abramowitz (ma...@enviropolicy.com) wrote:


That’s certainly fact, data, etc., and I’m not seeing any disagreement about 
the EV1.  

But you’re talkingabout something completely different than what was said.  I 
was asking for the data that was said to exist about DEALERS not wanting to 
selling to sell EVs.  And presumably anything less than current data won’t be 
useful.

Trust me,  I would be laughed out of the room if I walked into a meeting and 
said “We’ve got a problem with dealers being a barrier to integrating EVs into 
the fleet, and we need to figure out what to do about it.  My evidence that 
dealers don’t want to sell EVs is that we’ve got 25 year old anecdotes about 
manufacturers not wanting to put them out on the road.”

Sorry, you got my hopes up that there was real data demonstrating this, and 
that I could make use of it to address the problem.


On April 12, 2016 at 7:11:37 PM, Rush Dougherty (r...@ironandwood.org) wrote:

Mark

Fact, Data, Truth, whatever you chose to call it - the EV1 was not SOLD, it was
leased

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Mark Abramowitz via
EV
> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 5:57 PM
> To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (Why?) Nissan sez it is 'Tesla-3 Stoked' ...
>
> Yep, I remember the Impact. Great pre-production car. I had a chance to go
for a ride in
> one.
> But GM is a very different company today than it was under Stempel- that was
25 years
> ago!
> In any case, this is NOT data relating to dealers selling EVs. It's not even
data...
>
>
> - Mark
>
>
> From: EVDL Administrator via EV  To: "'Electric Vehicle
Discussion
> List'"  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (Why?) Nissan sez it is
'Tesla-3
> Stoked' ... Date: 4/12/16, 4:43 PM
>
>
> On 12 Apr 2016 at 14:29, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:
>
> > I'd say that the first chapter would be about the EV1, A fantastic EV
> > by any standard that GM did NOT want to sell and was CRUSHED ...
>
> Yeah, literally crushed.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ev1_crush5.jpg
>
> I wish I could find where I read it and get corroboration, but there's a story
about the Impact,
> the Aerovironment-built prototype that eventually
> became the EV1.
>
> The tale goes that when GM showed the Impact at the 1990 (I think it was) LA
auto show,
> one of their executives, possibly Robert Stempel himself, was standing next to
a board
> member of CARB. The CARB rep was praising the Impact and its potential to the
heavens.
> Stempel is supposed to have listened for a few minutes, gradually becoming
more agitated.
> Finally he looked at the guy and said, point-blank, "You're not really going
to make us
> BUILD that car, are you?"
>
> I was surprised when they actually put the Volt on the market. When it comes
to EVs, GM
> has generally been little talk and even less action. Most of their EV
"experiments" seemed
> to revolve around demonstrating just how
> allegedly impractical EVs are / were.
>
> Look at the 1966 Electrovair II. It was a converted Corvair, really not that
much different in
> size and weight from the Impact / EV1, but even more impossible to mass
produce. But
> unlike the Impact, it didn't use batteries that might be affordable. Instead
they filled it with
> silver zinc batteries. On these high-energy (for the time) batteries it got
as much as
> 80 miles of range.
>
> Did you catch that the batteries were silver=based? Can you 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (Why?) Nissan sez it is 'Tesla-3 Stoked' ...

[dovepa via EV]

The history of the EV1 is in the book "The car that could" by Michael  
Shnayerson. He spent years inside GM while they designed the car doing research 
on the book. He interviewed many of the engineers at GM. It's an excellent book 
if you want to know the history. The impact was the first name of the EV1. 
Schnayerson describes the supportive role of GM chairman Robert Stempel and the 
tenacity of a group of true-believing engineers who kept the idea alive after 
Stempel was ousted.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 4/12/2016  
6:43 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: (Why?) Nissan sez it is 'Tesla-3 Stoked' ... 
On 12 Apr 2016 at 14:29, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:

> I'd say that the first chapter would be about the EV1, A fantastic EV
> by any standard that GM did NOT want to sell and was CRUSHED ... 

Yeah, literally crushed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ev1_crush5.jpg

I wish I could find where I read it and get corroboration, but there's a 
story about the Impact, the Aerovironment-built prototype that eventually 
became the EV1.  

The tale goes that when GM showed the Impact at the 1990 (I think it was) LA 
auto show, one of their executives, possibly Robert Stempel himself, was 
standing next to a board member of CARB.  The CARB rep was praising the 
Impact and its potential to the heavens. Stempel is supposed to have 
listened for a few minutes, gradually becoming more agitated.  Finally he 
looked at the guy and said, point-blank, "You're not really going to make us 
BUILD that car, are you?"  

I was surprised when they actually put the Volt on the market.  When it 
comes to EVs, GM has generally been little talk and even less action.  Most 
of their EV "experiments" seemed to revolve around demonstrating just how 
allegedly impractical EVs are / were.  

Look at the 1966 Electrovair II.  It was a converted Corvair, really not 
that much different in size and weight from the Impact / EV1, but even more 
impossible to mass produce.  But unlike the Impact, it didn't use batteries 
that might be affordable.  Instead they filled it with silver zinc 
batteries.  On these high-energy (for the time) batteries it got as much as 
80 miles of range.  

Did you catch that the batteries were silver=based?  Can you imagine how 
much that cost?  Try $160,000 in 1966.  That's just for the battery.  The 
Electrovair's battery alone cost 64 times as much as a 1966 Corvair ICE 
($2500).

Today that 500+ volt silver-zinc battery would cost $1.2 million, based on 
inflation adjustment on the original cost, and about $8 million based on the 
current value of silver.  

Of >course< the Electrovair was impractical.  GM didn't WANT it to be 
practical, any more than they wanted the Impact / EV1 to be practical.

GM has been that kind of company for as long as I've been following EVs.  
That's been since around 1967.  Maybe that history helps you understand why 
some of us remain deeply skeptical of GM's sincerity.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Re: EVLN: GM Internal Tests Say Bolt EV Exceeding 200mi Range Estimate

[dovepa via EV]

That was good... I enjoyed that but I don't believe Tesla is competing with the 
current automakers. He is redefining the whole industry. He doesn't care what 
they do and they are only trying to comply with the government.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Mike Nickerson via EV  Date: 4/12/2016  12:14 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: 'EVDL Administrator' , 'Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List'  Subject: Re: [EVDL] [SPAM?] Re: EVLN: GM 
Internal Tests Say Bolt EV
Exceeding 200mi Range Estimate 
This is a message I posted to Facebook a few days ago.  It has my thoughts
on Bolt vs. Tesla Model 3.


Why I'm Driving Tesla

I was reading an article today about the new Chevy Bolt. It sounded like a
nice car, but my first reaction was that it wouldn't be the same as a Tesla.
That kind of surprised me because they are both electric and sound fairly
similar. I started thinking why my reaction was so biased. I came up with
three major points.

Electric Is The Future of Driving

First, electric cars really are the future of driving. They are more
efficient. Even with gas at $2.00 per gallon, my cost per mile is less than
half the cost of my most fuel efficient car. With regeneration, you get back
your energy when slowing, instead of wasting it. Finally, all the low end
torque makes them fun to drive. Of course, the Bolt is electric too, so this
point is a tie.

Tesla Is A Really Good Electric Car

While most electric cars compete well with gas sedans, Tesla Model S
competes well with Corvettes and super cars. That is incredible for a five
passenger, four door sedan. The Tesla is also amazing in its stability and
responsiveness. As soon as you think about going faster or slower, it does
it.  It also corners like it is on rails. Finally, it is very safe. I think
Tesla will have the edge here, but the Chevy Bolt could tie with a lot of
effort.

It Isn't Just The Car, It's The Ecosystem

After driving the Tesla a while, you realize there is an entire ecosystem
that no other car, gas or electric can match. When an improvement is made,
the car receives it overnight. It politely asks you in the morning when you
want to install it. Other cars require a scheduled service visit at the
dealership for an update. The car knows where it is, and learns where you
are going. It remembers charging and suspension settings by location. One
evening, it offered a different route home because the normal route was
congested. Not too surprising, except I didn't tell it where I was going; it
learned. Tesla vehicles with Autopilot send word back to headquarters on
what they learn about road conditions.

Finally, the Tesla is the only electric vehicle that is feasible to drive
across the country. This is because of the network of SuperChargers. This
ensures that a Tesla could be your only vehicle, and you can travel when you
want. This network is unprecedented. Yes, there is a more complete network
of gas stations, but a SuperCharger is free. For life.

That ecosystem is really why I drive a Tesla now. Initially, I bought the
car for the responsiveness and performance, but the advantages of the
ecosystem are why I would buy the next Tesla. No other vehicle manufacturer
is showing the vision to build out that kind of ecosystem. That is why Tesla
will win.

> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator via EV
> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2016 11:31 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Subject: [SPAM?] Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Internal Tests Say Bolt EV Exceeding
> 200mi Range Estimate
> 
> The GM I know would use that as a reason to make the battery smaller and
> cheaper (without lowering the car's price).
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Charge Net NZ L3&2 EVSE in Wellington and Petone

[dovepa via EV]

I have on your ever used one Chademo charger but it charged to 100% it drops 
the current the closers you get to full.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 3/29/2016  
10:26 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Charge Net NZ L3&2 EVSE in Wellington and Petone 
On 29 Mar 2016 at 3:22, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> The station will charge a Nissan Leaf from empty to full in as little as 20
> minutes. That'll take you about 120 kilometres.

When did fast chargers start charging past 80% SOC to 100%?  Did I miss 
something?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] "short" 30 minute video of S-10 Lead Acid to Nissan Leaf module conversion

[dovepa via EV]

The GS Yuasa is a 50 Ah LFP cell used in the i-MiEV. The cathode material used 
is a carbon-loaded LiFePO4 combined with a graphite cathode. 
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Willie2 via EV  Date: 3/26/2016  10:08 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] "short" 30 minute video of S-10 Lead Acid to Nissan Leaf
  module conversion 
On 03/26/2016 08:14 AM, Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield wrote:
> Yes. There's a taxi firm in the UK with a 100k+ mile leaf. It is DCQC 
> daily multiple times and still has all of its capacity bars.
>
> It is a 2013 car, fitted with the 2012-2013 generation cells. (There 
> have been incremental improvements since the leaf launched in 2010)
Thanks, Nikki.  I've only become dimly aware that you are no longer in 
Great Brittan.  Welcome.  I'm a bit surprised, I thought you were a 
pretty well established journalist "over there".  I encourage you to 
post about your movements, etc.

I'm not personally in the market for any Leaf cells.  I was depending on 
my early (2011?) Leaf to give me a range of 70+ miles. When it dropped 
from about 90 miles to about 60 miles (20k miles, ~400 cycles, horrible 
Texas summer), it became useless to me.  Of course, I was disgusted to 
learn that Nissan was forcing owners to sue to get warranty service.  
I'm now using an imiev but only as a second car; it has given me about 
65 miles for 10k miles.  So, it could still go the way of the Leaf but 
imiev longevity reports have been good.  Not so with Leafs, though it 
does seem they fare well in cool climates.  A negative on the imiev is 
the lack of service; I have to go ~200 miles to buy one.  I don't buy 
cars with the intention of needing service.  We do have Leaf dealers 
near me. I've heard reports of them charging Leaf owners for oil 
changes. So, I don't feel too deprived not having nearby imiev service; 
I may be better off without it.

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Re: [EVDL] (D) @Costa4NY ’s public EVSE bill for 5 NYC boroughs

[dovepa via EV]

I still believe public charging stations are a mistake. Instead they should 
give incentives to install at shops, resturants and fueling stations.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 3/23/2016  3:16 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] (D) @Costa4NY ’s public EVSE 
bill for 5 NYC boroughs 


% Let's hope they install it where drivers want to go (shopping,
airport/train/bus long-term parking, etc.) and the EV signage are 
red-lettered 'tow-away' %

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/electric-car-charging-stations-boroughs-article-1.2569607
Electric car charging stations may come to all five NYC boroughs under
Queens councilman’s bill
March 18, 2016   ERIN DURKIN

[image  
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2569606.1458331198!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/was8993323.jpg
(plugging in j1772)  DAVID MCNEW/AFP/GETTY IMAGES
]

Democrat Costa Constantinides's legislation would mandate that the
Department of Transportation launch a four-year pilot program with up to 35
curbside charging stations citywide.

A Queens councilman will introduce a bill to require the city to start
installing electric car charging stations in parking spaces around the five
boroughs.

Democrat Costa Constantinides's legislation would mandate that the
Department of Transportation launch a four-year pilot program with up to 35
curbside charging stations citywide.

"Obviously we're trying to get people out of cars first," Constantinides
said. "But for those who still do purchase cars — and I drive a car myself —
you want to go green ... If there's no infrastructure, there's no way to
plug in, it's not going to be an option for you. You're not going to make
that choice even if you want to make that choice."

Under the legislation, which will be introduced Tuesday, the city would have
to install two to seven stations in each borough and list their locations
online. Officials would also have to report on how much the stations were
used.

Constantinides said the city has done a good job converting part of the city
fleet to electric, but for private citizens driving an electric car is still
tough.

"We want to make it easier. We want to make going green as simple as
traditional," he said.
[© nydailynews.com]
...
http://ny.curbed.com/2016/3/20/11269186/curbside-electric-car-charging-stations-to-nyc-streets
Bill Would Bring Electric Car Charging Stations to NYC Streets
MAR 20, 2016  The proposal would have two to seven in each borough ... To
that end, he will propose a pilot program that would bring up to 35 curbside
electric car charging stations to the city, the New York Daily News
reported.
...
http://council.nyc.gov/d22/html/members/home.shtml
Costa Constantinides
https://www.facebook.com/costaforastoria/




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Re: [EVDL] L3/2 EVSE screen & plugs smashed by vandals in Bunbury.au

[dovepa via EV]

Another reason charging stations in the middle of nowhere is a bad idea. They 
should give incentives to resturants strip malls and gas stations to install 
them and let them charge for electricity. That way someone is responisible and 
makes money to incentive their effort. These giveaways are just stupid.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 3/19/2016  5:09 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] L3/2 EVSE screen & plugs 
smashed by vandals in Bunbury.au 


% ?An EV hate crime by Koch-Werwolf wannabes? %

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/regional/south-west/a/31104347/vehicle-charging-station-damaged/
Vehicle charging station damaged
March 15, 2016

[image  
https://s.yimg.com/ea/img/-/160315/7_1bef8nt-1bef8nv.jpg
The charging station at the Symmons Street carpark has been damaged by
vandals.
]

Bunbury's electric car charging station has been left unusable because it
was damaged by vandals.

The charging station was attacked more than a week ago and has been cordoned
off by Bunbury City Council.

It was part of a network of charging stations installed by the RAC in a bid
to encourage electric cars to travel to the South West.

"The RAC electric vehicle charging station was damaged on the night of March
5-6," acting director of community and customer services John Kowal said.

"Damage is to the unit's front panel and internal electric wiring.

"The facility has been cordoned off to ensure public safety.

"Repairs will be carried out by the company that installed the charger as
soon as possible. The cost of repairs will be covered by the city's
insurance."

The station was installed in the Symmons Street carpark next to the Graham
Bricknell Memorial Music Shell in June last year.

"As it becomes more and more common knowledge I think more and more people
will start to use it," chief executive officer Andrew Brien said soon after
it was installed.

"Our idea of putting them in the CBD was to have them (drivers) have a long
charge, go and have a cup of coffee and then come back and drive off."

Electric charging stations are located in Perth and across the South West
including Busselton, Margaret River and Mandurah.
[© au.news.yahoo.com]
...
http://api.plugshare.com/view/location/66031
Symmons St Carpark | Bunbury, WA
 ... (comment) Mar 5, 2016 5:41 PM  Someone trashed the charger on evening
of Mar 4. Screen smashed, plugs smashed ...
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf#Propaganda
Werwolf
http://militaryhistorynow.com/2015/10/23/the-fighting-werwolves-the-third-reichs-underground-army/
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=koch+name
Koch:  A German surname




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Re: [EVDL] confirmation on thie info please

[dovepa via EV]

It is a stupid argument on many levels. It takes 5 to 6 kwh of electricity to 
refine gasoline. An electric vehicle can travel 16 to 20 miles on that much 
power. So it is close to a wash in that regard, however, refiners make their 
own power so unless they feed the grid it will still need to come from existing 
electric plants so it would be a net increase. It take on average 911 kwh a 
month to run a house and average of 35 gallons a month per person in gasoline 
use. That would increase you electric use by 175kwh per person or 20%. Since 
the grid supplies far more power in the daytime than at night and most people 
charge there cars at night I would say there would not be much impact to the 
grid. In reality though, all people are not going to switch to electric are 
once so it will be gradual. It the switched all at once the bigger issue would 
be out of work petroleum workers.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: K O via EV  Date: 3/13/2016  12:55 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] 
confirmation on thie info please 
This fellows numbers don't seem right to me, but I don't carry stats around in 
my headaccurate? or not?Phil Boettge The US uses 33% of its electrical capacity 
for industrial purposes.  Of its industrial uses, 16% are for refining 
petroleum products.  So 5.3% of the US electrical capacity is used for refining 
petroleum.Replacing all of America's cars with all-electric vehicles would 
increase American electrical demand by 21.7 to 43.4 percent, depending on 
whether one accepts 6 or 3 miles per kilowatt.  So replacing internal 
combustion engines with all-electric ones would use 4 to 8 times as much 
electricity as refining petroleumChoose Love, 
KO
 I don't shop where I can't charge.

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN status ... EV-news-drought ... We've been spoiled ...

[dovepa via EV]

Oil prices are controlled by brokerage firms just like all the other 
commodities. IMO
OIL Prices, adjusted in relation to current fluctuations, have essentially been 
a straight downward line since last September, when they fell from $ 50 a 
barrel to the current $ 29. What was so momentous that happened in the world 
market in September? That was when "Goldman Sachs" lowered expectations for the 
average oil price for 2016 to $ 20 a barrel, echoed by Merrill Lynch, Bank of 
America and others.The $20 quoted by Goldman Sachs was not a forecast, it was 
the target. Economy Ministries make forecasts, while Goldman Sachs makes the 
markets. Oil contracts are only 2% percent of the raw materials market, the 
rest being speculative securities, futures and other derivatives. Prices for 
futures are not determined by supply and demand, but by “expectations”, with 
the market controlled by the largest US banks, using rating agencies, 
"independent" experts and the media.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Michael Ross via EV  Date: 3/10/2016  4:14 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Peri Hartman , Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN status ... EV-news-drought 
... We've been spoiled
... 
I am not completely sure about the randomness of oil prices. The main
driver of oil prices is the Saudis.  They got fed up with losing market
share to renewables and other countries. It is a business decision on their
part to put the kabash on oil sands, more deep sea exploration, fracking,
etc., EVs too maybe.  They see, in retrospect, their reduced production
over years past as a mistake.  It essentially built up their competition
and they are putting an end to much of it.

They have enough oil to keep this up for a very long time - geopolitics
notwithstanding.

I have stayed away from energy investing primarily because there is so much
manipulation unconnected with actual need, cost of production, futures
trading, and so on.  It is not exactly a free market. I am regularly
surprised by what happens since I am an outsider, and that is not a good
basis for sound investing.

Mike

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 4:50 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> I'm a bit more optimistic.  I know Koch Bros are ramping up their stint.
> However, there are some big differences between this time and the last
> time.  First, the majority of the population believes global warming is
> caused by CO2 and other gasses we're adding to the atmosphere and that we
> need to do something to reduce that effect.  The other big difference is we
> have Tesla who is ramping up production and planning to introduce their
> "cheap" 200 mile range car.  If the other automakers don't have parity,
> they will lose that market share.  We're not at the hump in mainstream
> adoption so I'm not concerned about the people who expect to buy a 200 mile
> range EV for $15K.  I'm concerned about the still relatively early adopters
> who will pay $30K and I am pretty certain those people aren't listening to
> Koch & Koch.  There are other factors, too, not the least of which is that
> the price of oil could come back up just as rapidly as it went down.
>
> Peri
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "brucedp5 via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Sent: 10-Mar-16 12:12:04 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] EVLN status ... EV-news-drought ... We've been spoiled ...
>
>
>>
>> In my previous evdl posts:
>>
>>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-status-feast-or-famine-gt-sign-of-the-times-td4679110.html
>> EVLN status ... feast or famine> sign of the times
>> Dec 08, 2015
>>
>>
>> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/OT-EVLN-EV-newswire-status-td4676627.html
>> OT: EVLN EV newswire status ...
>> Jul 05, 2015
>>
>> I explained how much time I spend trying to find, then spend time
>> reformatting & cleaning up the text, and then adding related links to the
>> news items I post.
>>
>> I also mentioned that IMO there was a change coming in how many (juicy,
>> interesting) EV news items that would be released, as well as an increase
>> in
>> the anti-EV dark-forces out there trying to subvert the EV-competition to
>> ice-sales and petrol-consumption.
>>
>> Well, that time is here. It is more than the million$ the Koch Brothers
>> have
>> pumped into the anti-EV campaign, the drop in oil prices to try to sell
>> off
>> as much as possible and get the public to go back to buying SUV
>> gas-guzzlers, and more than the ever-stronger rump style of
>> insane-thinking
>> going on during the days before the coming U.S. election.
>>
>> We have had it so-good for a very long time, but those heydays are over.
>> Some have been cynical, and some have complained of topics they see, but
>> lets stay grounded and remember because of this EV-news drought is as
>> severe
>> as the CA-water-drought, 

Re: [EVDL] Rudman MK II regulator PCBs

[dovepa via EV]

http://www.evsource.com/conversion/electronics/regulators/mk2/mk2.php
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 3/7/2016  
12:03 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rudman MK II regulator PCBs 
On 7 Mar 2016 at 6:33, dovepa via EV wrote:

> http://www.evsource.com/tls_MK3.php
> These people appear to still sell them

Mark 3 != Mark 2, not even for very low values of Mark 3.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE

[dovepa via EV]

That is interesting because I purchased a Siemens VersiCharge Gen 2 30 Amp 
charger and it had a NE MA 6-50 plug on the end.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Cor van de Water via EV  Date: 3/7/2016  3:18 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE 
Sorry, but I think this is bad advice.
NEMA 6-50 is not the most common plug. The NEMA 14-50 (RV plug) is by
far the most useful plug, found in every camping and RV spot, it is used
for stove or other appliance connection in newer homes (old homes had
10-50 or 10-30 for stove and dryer respectively) so I do not know why
6-50 is recommended in this article? Are there other areas than what I
am aware of
where NEMA 6-50 is common? I could not find them and Wikipedia says of
the
NEMA 6: "The higher-current versions are rare..."
I am only aware of somewhat common use of the NEMA 6-20 which is the 20A
version that looks like the usual NEMA 5 outlet and plug, but then used
on window ACs that run on 240V instead of 120V.

I would *definitely* recommend to mount a 14-30 or 14-50 where you want
to plug in the charger, since that is also useful for the common
appliances such as a dryer and you can even plug in an RV.
Conversely, if you mount a 14-50 plug on your charger and carry it, you
can plug in at any campground or other RV facility.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626    Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130    private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 12:16 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: What You Need To Know To Wire A Garage EVSE



http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100526_how-to-wire-a-new-garage-for
-electric-car-charging-what-you-need-to-know
How To Wire A New Garage For Electric-Car Charging: What You Need To
Know
Feb 26, 2016  John Voelcker

[images  
http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/garage_100546966_l.jpg
Garage

http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/nema-6-50-plug_100546965_l.jpg
NEMA 6-50 plug

http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/nema-6-50-socket_100546964_l.jpg
NEMA 6-50 socket

http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/nema-6-50-plug-in-socket_100546961_l.jpg
NEMA 6-50 plug in socket

http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/circuit-breaker-box_100546962_l.jpg
Circuit-breaker box

http://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/circuit-breaker-box-showing-240-volt-circ
uit-for-electric-car-charging-station_100546963_l.jpg
Circuit-breaker box showing 240-Volt circuit for electric-car charging
station
]
  
One of the more daunting perceived obstacles to driving a plug-in
electric
car seems to be the need for a home charging station.

While plug-in hybrids can be recharged overnight using their 120-Volt
charging cords, battery-electric drivers should really have access to a
240-Volt Level 2 charging station.

Those will recharge the full battery pack in anything from 4 to 9 hours,
depending on the specific car.

Many owners will want to retrofit a charging station into an existing
garage, but to lay out the principles, we're starting with what it takes
to
install one into a garage that's being built or extensively remodeled.

We've just gone through that process for a new garage in New York's
Catskill
Mountains. (Note this applies only to North America!)

There are several steps, but it's important to understand that the
wiring is
the first step, and separate from the charging station--since drivers
may
later choose to upgrade to a more powerful station.

First, work with your contractor and electrician to install a dedicated
240-Volt line to 1 or 2 feet below wherever you plan to locate your
charging
station.

We sited ours in a corner of the building so a car can be recharged
inside,
or we can run the cord out underneath the garage door or through the
regular
door on the side of the building.

Many contractors won't have any prior experience with electric-car
charging
stations, so you may have to educate them.

The easiest way to put it in context is that it's the same kind of
circuit
used for electric clothes driers or stoves.

Second, make sure your new circuit is capable of 50 Amps, which means a
40-Amp charging rate (using 80 percent of the circuit capacity).

Even if your first charging station is only capable of 24 Amps (as many
less-expensive ones are), you'll want to "future-proof" your garage
wiring.

Third, tell the electrician to install a NEMA 6-50 socket--the one used
by
most 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge)

[dovepa via EV]

Mostly unfounded concerns.17 % capacity loss after 100,000 miles. At least half 
a new pack is paid for by gas savings at 2 bucks a gallon. Lots of people 
Gerald rid of the vehicle before it gets to 100,000 miles
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089091_owner-of-10-mile-nissan-leaf-electric-car-to-be-honored-monday
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Ed Blackmond via EV  Date: 3/1/2016  5:16 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Cor van de Water , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are 
King (A Gigafactory Challenge) 
People with ICE vehicles finance their fuel purchases separately from the 
vehicle. The same could be done for electric vehicle battery packs. 

There is a good business model here for leasing battery packs separately from 
the vehicle. A pack would be leased originally with a guaranteed capacity of X. 
When it could no longer support that capacity, it could be leased to another 
customer with a capacity of Y (where Y is some fraction of X). Presumably the  
lease rate for a Y pack would be less than the rate for an X pack.  A customer 
who paid for an X pack would always have a pack with at least that capacity.  
It is up to the leasing company to guarantee this.

When a pack is no longer capable of supporting vehicle applications, it can be 
leased for stationary applications such as grid stability, or peak load 
shaving. When it is no longer suitable for stationary applications, it can be 
recycled into a new pack.

Ed

> On Mar 1, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> I don't think it has to do with the number of individual components
> (cells in this case) or else the internal combustion engine would have
> lost to the electric motor a very long time ago.
> I think the problem is more with the upfront cost - it would be similar
> to having to pay for almost all the fuel that your ICEV would be
> consuming in the 8 or 10 years following, at the moment of vehicle
> purchase.
> So, we probably need a similar thing as cellphone companies do: either
> you buy the phone upfront and you are free to go whomever you want, or
> you buy a subsidized phone with a plan, but then you select a provider
> that has good coverage in your area.
> Meaning that you would buy an EV with a subsidy by the Charger Provider,
> but you are required to install a charger from that provider in your
> home and fill up (at home and on the go) at a charger from that
> provider, unless you want to pay "roaming charges" to fill up at an EVSE
> from a different provider.
> 
> And then there is the pay-as-you-go option where you would still own the
> car (it is not a shared car which is another option) but only pay when
> you are actually using it.
> I am sure that there have already been people that have done the math on
> business plans for these options, but this would shave off the threshold
> for entrance into an EV compared to an ICEV.
> I do not know if the business plans would work out though.
> 
> Cor van de Water 
> Chief Scientist 
> Proxim Wireless 
> 
> office +1 408 383 7626    Skype: cor_van_de_water 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130    private: cvandewater.info 
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
> Administrator via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 1:47 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge)
> 
> I'm hardly an expert on these matters, but over 7000 cells in a battery?
> 
> Good grief. With the stupefying amount of labor that has to go into 
> assembling such batteries, I don't see how Tesla (or anyone) can ever
> build 
> an EV for the masses
> 
> By this I mean an EV that anyone can afford, with performance (including
> 
> range) pretty close to an equivalent ICEV.  
> 
> I don't mean a $37k EV (you don't really think that $7500 subsidy is
> going 
> to last, do you?). I'm talking about an EV that costs what an ICE Toyota
> 
> Yaris or Honda Fit costs, or less, and presents the same creature
> comforts, 
> with a range of at least 200 miles.
> 
> We know that 100 mile range is plenty.  A few people will accept that,
> and a 
> few will pay a premium over the cost of an equivalent ICEV.  Most won't.
> 
> That's why used Leafs are so unsettlingly cheap - it's supply and
> demand.   
> 
> IMO, EVs won't become truly mainstream until they cost not just the same
> as, 
> but LESS than equivalent ICEVs.  I actually hope I'm proven 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge)

[dovepa via EV]

We are just not out of the innovators stage of the adoption curve is all.
All new technology takes time to be accepted by the masses.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 3/1/2016  
3:46 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge) 
I'm hardly an expert on these matters, but over 7000 cells in a battery? 
Good grief. With the stupefying amount of labor that has to go into 
assembling such batteries, I don't see how Tesla (or anyone) can ever build 
an EV for the masses

By this I mean an EV that anyone can afford, with performance (including 
range) pretty close to an equivalent ICEV.  

I don't mean a $37k EV (you don't really think that $7500 subsidy is going 
to last, do you?). I'm talking about an EV that costs what an ICE Toyota 
Yaris or Honda Fit costs, or less, and presents the same creature comforts, 
with a range of at least 200 miles.

We know that 100 mile range is plenty.  A few people will accept that, and a 
few will pay a premium over the cost of an equivalent ICEV.  Most won't.  
That's why used Leafs are so unsettlingly cheap - it's supply and demand.   

IMO, EVs won't become truly mainstream until they cost not just the same as, 
but LESS than equivalent ICEVs.  I actually hope I'm proven wrong, but from 
here I don't see that happening with an EV battery containing thousands of 
tiny cells.  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge)

[dovepa via EV]

Cylindrical lithium cells are easy to manufacture and mechanically stable, 
making them enduringly popular. They’re also very safe – if internal pressure 
grows too great, most cells are designed to rupture, mitigating safety hazards 
– and benefit from longevity, an attractive price point and comparatively low 
watt-per-hour cost, making them an economical choice. The cylindrical design, 
however, causes notable space between cells, making space efficiency more 
challenging. A well-designed cylindrical-type lithium battery takes advantage 
of the structure’s energy-dense nature, using free space to install thermal 
regulation solutions. Small cylindrical cells are generally used in portable 
technologies such as laptops and medical devices. Large cylindrical cells are 
popular for electric vehicles, a growing market largely driven by manufacturer 
Tesla. Prismatic Advantages And UsesThe prismatic lithium cell’s key advantages 
lie in its thin profile, lightness and effective use of space; the prismatic 
cell’s thin, rectangular shape facilitates better layering and gives product 
designers increased flexibility. Unsurprisingly, prismatic cells are typically 
found in mobile phones, tablets and other lightweight electronic devices. While 
space efficiency makes prismatic cells highly attractive, several disadvantages 
exist. Prismatic cells are expensive to design and manufacture, in turn making 
them more expensive for consumers. They die quicker, as thermal management is 
less effective, and are relatively sensitive to deformation in high-pressure 
situations. Other drawbacks include a limited number of standardized sizes and 
an average higher watt-per-hour 
pricehttp://www.relionbattery.com/blog/lithium-cells-should-i-go-cylindrical-or-prismatic
 Original message From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 
3/1/2016  5:36 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 
Batteries are King (A Gigafactory Challenge) 


http://seekingalpha.com/article/3936476-tesla-gigafactory-challenge
Tesla: A Gigafactory Challenge
Feb. 26, 2016  Frank Greenhalgh

[images  
https://staticseekingalpha.a.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/2016/2/3860661_14564468182045_0.jpg
The Tesla Model S Battery Pack (uncovered)

https://staticseekingalpha3.a.ssl.fastly.net/uploads/2016/2/3860661_14564468182045_2.png
singular unit  Bolt Battery Pack
]

In 2014 Tesla announced the "Gigafactory," the answer to high battery
prices.

The Chevrolet Bolt demonstrates the advantages of prismatic cells. Fewer
cells, easier to cool and cheaper.

Tesla should consider also manufacturing prismatic cells in the Gigafactory
for the Model 3.

The Gigafactory

In their December 2014 10-Q report, (page 11) Tesla announced:

    We believe that the Tesla Gigafactory will allow us to achieve a major
reduction in the cost of our battery packs of greater than 30% on a per kWh
basis by the end of the first year of volume production of Gen III. The
total capital expenditures associated with the Tesla Gigafactory through
2020 are expected to be $4-5 billion, of which approximately 2 billion is
expected to come from Tesla.

True to form, Tesla had decided to vertically integrate further, by
manufacturing their own batteries. At that time battery pack prices were
approximately $300/kWh, so a 30% saving would reduce the costs to $210 a
kWh. The Model 3 will probably use a 50kWh battery, which in 2014 would cost
$15,000, and after the Gigafactory less than $10,500. This savings is
supposed to allow a Model 3 design to sell for $35,000, making it
competitive with the BMW 3-series.

While Tesla is building a Gigafactory to manufacture cylindrical cells by
the millions, all other EV manufacturers have decided to use prismatic
battery cells, supplied by LG or Samsung (OTC:SSNLF). The reasons were
revealed with the introduction of the Chevrolet (NYSE:GM) Bolt.

The prismatic cells offer a cheaper, lighter, solution to EV battery design
threatening the value of the Gigafatory and even the competitiveness of the
Model 3.

The Battery is KIng
The heart of any electric vehicle is its battery. It is the most expensive
(and heaviest) component of any EV, and it dictates what the range and
performance of the car will be.

Up to now no BEV, except the Tesla Models S & X, have had a range of over
200 miles. This is only possible because the battery packs on the S and X
are huge, cost around $22,000 and weigh 1,300 lbs.

The pack uses the same concept used for the Roadster in 2004. Thousands of
small cylindrical cells placed in an isolated liquid cooled (or heated)
environment.

Present Competition
The present EV competition, such as the Nissan (OTCPK:NSANY) Leaf and the
BMW i3 have ranges of less than 100 miles. Instead of using larger
batteries, many automakers add a small internal combustion engine to charge
the battery, increasing the range, but not the performance. These hybrid
cars, such as the Chevy Volt and the BMW i3REX, have received good 

Re: [EVDL] Battery voltage sag and effects on motor

[dovepa via EV]

That is a normal and I don't believe there is a solution other than replacing 
batteries or the batteries are good then you need to add more if you want more 
range.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: "Craig M. via EV"  Date: 2/25/2016  9:08 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: EV@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Battery voltage sag and 
effects on motor 

I need some feedback for anyone who has seen the following effects.

I want the maximum possible range out of my EV but when the battery is weak (58 
miles or so,) acceleration can be a problem.  If I hold down the accelerator 
pedal too long the voltage drops low.  The motor pulls a lot of current, and 
the motor may slow down as the battery rapidly discharges.  I have also 
observed that if the motor stalls, it draws very high current and the battery 
is soon fully discharged.  To get home on a weak battery I have had to 
accelerate in steps or pulses.  I would lift my foot off the pedal for about a 
second and let the voltage on the battery come back up before pressing the 
pedal down again to accelerate.  There is an alarm that sounds if the voltage 
on any cell is too low or too high.  I have an AC-50 motor and controller with 
the regenerative feature and LIFEPO4 cells.  This may be playing a role in this 
effect.  I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has pondered the effects of 
voltage sag on batteries and motors.  I have asked this same que
 stion elsewhere and I got back shrieks of how I am breaking the laws of 
physics, motion or thermodynamics.  I can't break those laws so I frankly have 
stopped worrying about it.  I am making observations and trying to learn from 
them.
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Re: [EVDL] Ensure your spent li-ion batteries are properly recycled/disposed-of

[dovepa via EV]

As far as I know, no one is making a Nanoparticle battery yet.
In current list ion batteries there is 6% aluminum and 12% copper so there is 
no money in recycling them.
A 100th cell might give you 6 Oz copper and 2 Oz aluminum 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Michael Ross via EV  Date: 2/14/2016  6:26 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: brucedp5 , Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ensure your spent li-ion batteries 
are properly
recycled/disposed-of 
Doesn't sound like they factor in the uptick in demand that will accompany
large scale use in EVs. It will be far easier to recycle the cells than to
mine anew the constituent elements I'd Like ion cells. To bad LiFePO4 isn't
going to cut is because the really are far less permicious. The copper and
aluminum electrode will get the cells recycled alone the other elements
will be a bonus. Li titanate will be similarly benign to LiFePO4 if that
catches l
On.

Nevertheless we have to recycle them even if they are completely benign and
cheap as dirt itself, whatever chemistries become  prevalent.
On Feb 14, 2016 3:37 AM, "brucedp5 via EV"  wrote:

>
>
> http://www.domain-b.com/technology/20160206_microorganism.html
> Lithium battery catalyst found to harm key soil microorganism
> 06 February 2016
>
> [image
> http://www.domain-b.com/technology/images/microorganism_domain-b.jpg
> Shewanella oneidensis thrives on metal ions, converting them to metals like
> iron that serve as nutrients for other microbes. The bacterium was shown to
> be harmed by the compound nickel manganese cobalt oxide, which is produced
> in nanoparticle form and is poised to become the dominant material in the
> lithium ion batteries that will power portable electronics and electric
> vehicles. (Illustration by Ella Marushchenko, University of Minnesota)
> ]
>
> The material at the heart of the lithium ion batteries that power electric
> vehicles, laptop computers and smartphones has been shown to impair a key
> soil bacterium, according to new research published online in the journal
> Chemistry of Materials.
>
> The study by researchers at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and the
> University of Minnesota is an early signal that the growing use of the new
> nanoscale materials used in the rechargeable batteries that power portable
> electronics and electric and hybrid vehicles may have untold environmental
> consequences.
>
> Researchers led by UW–Madison chemistry Professor Robert J. Hamers explored
> the effects of the compound nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC), an
> emerging
> material manufactured in the form of nanoparticles that is being rapidly
> incorporated into lithium ion battery technology, on the common soil and
> sediment bacterium Shewanella oneidensis.
>
> ''As far as we know, this is the first study that's looked at the
> environmental impact of these materials,'' says Hamers, who collaborated
> with the laboratories of University of Minnesota chemist Christy Haynes and
> UW–Madison soil scientist Joel Pedersen to perform the new work.
>
> NMC and other mixed metal oxides manufactured at the nanoscale are poised
> to
> become the dominant materials used to store energy for portable electronics
> and electric vehicles. The materials, notes Hamers, are cheap and
> effective.
>
> ''Nickel is dirt cheap. It's pretty good at energy storage. It is also
> toxic. So is cobalt,'' Hamers says of the components of the metal compound
> that, when made in the form of nanoparticles, becomes an efficient cathode
> material in a battery, and one that recharges much more efficiently than a
> conventional battery due to its nanoscale properties.
>
> Hamers, Haynes and Pedersen tested the effects of NMC on a hardy soil
> bacterium known for its ability to convert metal ions to nutrients.
>
> Ubiquitous in the environment and found worldwide, Shewanella oneidensis,
> says Haynes, is ''particularly relevant for studies of potentially
> metal-releasing engineered nanomaterials. You can imagine Shewanella both
> as
> a toxicity indicator species and as a potential bioremediator.''
>
> Subjected to the particles released by degrading NMC, the bacterium
> exhibited inhibited growth and respiration. ''At the nanoscale, NMC
> dissolves incongruently,'' says Haynes, releasing more nickel and cobalt
> than manganese. ''We want to dig into this further and figure out how these
> ions impact bacterial gene expression, but that work is still underway.''
>
> Haynes adds that ''it is not reasonable to generalize the results from one
> bacterial strain to an entire ecosystem, but this may be the first 'red
> flag' that leads us to consider this more broadly.''
>
> The group, which conducted the study under the auspices of the National
> Science Foundation-funded Center for Sustainable Nanotechnology at
> UW–Madison, also plans to study the effects of NMC 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Smart fortwo EV Batteries' second-life @Work> a win-win

[dovepa via EV]

Lithium Ion batteries can loose capacity when just sitting. Not all of it is 
permanent and can be recovered by cycling the cells. 
I let mine sit for over a year and some cells only had 30% capacity left. I 
cycled them about 5 times before I got full capacity back.
I am not sure what sitting for longer time periods would be but I have read 
papers that indicate capacity loss can be permanent 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 2/9/2016  
2:32 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Smart fortwo EV Batteries' second-life @Work> a
win-win 
On 9 Feb 2016 at 4:21, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

>  To be usable in the event of a replacement, a battery requires regular
> cyclising during its storage period, i.e. specific charging and
> discharging for the purpose of preservation. Otherwise it would suffer
> from deep discharging, which can lead to battery defects. 

Huh?  Who said that lithium ion batteries needed to be cycled (or 
'cyclised') while in storage?   Aren't they OK when stored at around 40-70% 
SOC?  

The way I heard this deal a few years ago, the idea was that when the 
battery capacity was too low for use in an EV, the battery would be demoted 
to grid leveling service.  

Unless this "reporter" is as clueless about this Diamler notion as he is 
about how steam cars worked, in Diamler's world, it's the other way round. 

I don't think that's a world I'm interested in joining, thank you.

It sounds like if I'm driving a Smart ED (love that designation) and I need 
a new battery, I can't have one.  Diamler will sell me a USED battery, one 
that's been doing grid leveling for some time already.  Are they going to 
give me a price reduced by the proportion of already-used cycle life?

Something smells kind of foul here.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Backlash begins> We'll all pay to charge others' electric cars

[dovepa via EV]

I agree. I also think they don't get used much so a big waste of money. They 
need to put them on Highway routes between cities. Or just subsidize gas 
stations to install them


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 2/8/2016  6:06 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Backlash begins> We'll all 
pay to charge others' electric
cars 


% Anti-plugin hate begins> Ratepayers paying for Utility EVSE %

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-CA-Utilities-Installing-public-EVSE-BAD-for-ratepayers-tp4680232.html
]

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/electric-703041-cars-charge.html
Letters: Shock at paying for electric car charging stations
Feb. 8, 2016  

Re: “We’ll all pay to charge others’ electric cars” (Opinion, Feb. 4): I
read Peter Ferrara’s article regarding Southern California Edison’s plan to
build 1,500 electric vehicle charging stations and how the cost will be
added to our utility bills.

We don’t drive electric cars, so why should we be penalized for those who
do? California wants everyone to drive an electric car, but then complains
when those electric vehicles produce no gas taxes.

It is bad enough that they want to charge mileage for using your car; now we
are penalized on our electric bill. We are very conservative in our
household with water, electric, gas and the like because we are on a budget.
I strongly oppose being billed for energy that is going to someone else’s
car. Let those who use electric vehicles pay for the electric charging
stations. Put it on their utility bill, not mine. I was born in California
but, frankly, I am sick and tired of being gouged because of others. No one
gets to vote on this? What has happened to our once-wonderful state?
 -Beverly Ulvan  Irvine [CA]

• • •

As ably pointed out by Peter Ferrara (“We’ll all pay to charge others’
electric cars,” Opinion, Feb. 4), California’s middle class is once again
getting the short end of the stick. The billionaires and millionaires who
buy electric cars like Tesla and Fisker are subsidized by the taxpayers
through government grants to the companies and subsidies to purchasers. Now
the middle class is being asked to pay for the billionaires and millionaires
to charge their cars. All this compliments of the progressive Democrats
running this state. It makes one wonder where Bernie Sanders stands on this
issue.
 -Robert Helfand  Laguna Niguel [CA] ...
[© 2016 Orange County Register]
...
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/california-702698-state-electric.html
We'll all pay to charge others' electric cars
Feb. 4, 2016  PETER J. FERRARA ... California Public Utilities Commission
approved Jan. 14 a proposal for Southern California Edison to build 1,500
electric vehicle charging stations ...




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{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GE L2 3kW wireless EVSE charging collaboration with Mahindra's e20 EV

[dovepa via EV]

How could they patient inductive charging? That technology has been around over 
100 years. My toothbrush charges that way. 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 2/7/2016  2:54 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: GE L2 3kW wireless EVSE 
charging collaboration with
  Mahindra's e20 EV 


http://www.motoroids.com/news/ge-unveils-wireless-electric-vehicle-charger-for-efficient-and-effortless-performance/
GE unveils wireless electric vehicle charger for efficient and effortless
performance
February 3, 2016  Udayan Chakraborty

[images  
http://motoroids.motoroidsautoinf.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/mahindra-e20-spied-5.jpg
mahindra-e20-spied (5)

http://motoroids.motoroidsautoinf.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/mahindra-e20-spied-6.jpg
mahindra-e20-spied (6)
]

GE in collaboration with Mahindra has developed a technology to wirelessly
charge the e2O Sport concept car being showcased at the Auto Expo 2016. This
is indeed a value creation opportunity for manufacturers of electric
vehicles of all sizes. This technology can pave the way to increased
adoption of EVs for a cleaner, greener future. EV charging eliminates the
need for a charging cable which is prone to damage, vandalism and potential
safety concerns. It also improves user comfort and convenience as there is
no need to manually plug in a cable – just park the vehicle over the
charging pad and charging begins.

The wireless charging technology developed by GE also has several benefits
over traditional charging methods. GE’s patented multi-coil system transfers
electric power with peak efficiency of over 92% across the ground clearance
of the vehicle at 3300 W. The technology also features a misalignment
tolerance in the range of 150 to 200 mm which is typically the radius of the
coil assembly. Unique protection and control mechanisms are embedded to
ensure safe, reliable, and robust operation of the system. The technology
enables Enables efficient interoperability with other charging systems. The
technology can also enable state of the art advanced charging strategies
like “charge on-the-go” which can eliminate the need to stop the vehicle for
a charge.

Electric Vehicles are truly the future, what with stress being laid on
emission norms and global climate impact. However, the constant need to park
the vehicle becomes a restraining factor for those who are in need of
continuous use of their vehicles. The groundbreaking technology of wireless
charging which also facilitates charging-on-the-go can definitely be a game
changer for vehicles in this segment. This particular advancement can also
bring in a surge in demand for electric vehicles. Other vehicle
manufacturers shall also start with their own research and development on
such vehicles, if this concept proves to be indeed beneficial and feasible.
[© motoroids.com]




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Re: [EVDL] Musk dissociating from an annoying customer who isn't worth the trouble

[dovepa via EV]

I know of one case personally. A friend of mine traded in his old vehicle on a 
new one. I few days later the dealership changed their mind and came and got 
the vehicle. The kicker is they already sold his trade in so they gave him the 
trade in value back in a check. 




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Cor van de Water via EV  Date: 2/6/2016  12:36 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Musk dissociating from an annoying customer who isn't
worth the trouble 
That definitely is the new America:
be rude, obnoxious and possibly even threatening/blackmailing a seller so he 
decides that you do not deserve his business,
then you turn around and sue the seller for not providing you the service that 
you feel entitled to.
Absolutely one of the problems with America today.

(note - I have no info about the details between the rude customer and Elon, 
but I see a lot of this type behavior, so it is not specific this case I am 
talking about - more a generic problem of entitlement).

I hope that we can bring the seller/customer relation a bit more in balance by 
allowing and expecting that either can decide not to enter a specific deal for 
good business reasons, instead of bringing the hammer down on one side.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626    Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130    private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ty delanty via EV
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 10:10 AM
To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Musk dissociating from an annoying customer who isn't worth 
the trouble

Aside from debating about who is more rude, petty, or immature, what Musk did 
should be illegal in the US. IMHO  

    On Thursday, February 4, 2016 5:38 PM, brucedp5 via EV  
wrote:
 

 

[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Elon-Musk-I-don-t-like-you-so-you-can-t-have-a-Tesla-tp4680259.html
]

'An annoying customer simply isn't worth the trouble'
'Play nice, or at least be polite'

% I passed on this news item for several reasons, one being the media played
it up too much without doing the research to know who Alsop2 was [
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Alsop_II
] and what was he spewing like a Donald wannabe (Trump or Sterling, you
pick). If Alsop2's time was that important to him, he should have just left.

Musk stopped short of wasting anymore time on him (with a spanking, or a
case of whoop-ass that Alsop2 deserved) and just walked-away (dissociated)
from the loser. I feel Musk took justifiable corrective action, and Alsop2
got what he asked for.

[Sidebar: I am reminded of the goings-on in the sea of cubicals at 1980's
hi-tech companies, when a jr., inexperienced, unproven female Software (SW)
Engineer came over to the senior (he was a SW God) Engineer's cubical (where
I was waiting on him to finish what he was doing so I could do his
CE-required task). She verbally accosted (laid-into) the Senior, 'that she
did not appreciate that she was given the interviewee early, that it screwed
up her day's schedule' (this was when there were few female Engineers, and
they were unprepared for the ways of hi-tech industry teamwork, etc. - today
is different).

The Senior turned to me and said, 'She could have just asked them to wait
until she was ready', meaning she vented on a team member (redirecting her
responsibility, laying blame for her decision on someone else), and she did
it to a Senior she would need help from sometime in the future, instead of
acting like a person living in the real world. He shook off her abuse, and
he took me to the problem he wanted me to resolve.

In the above environment, she was burning too many bridges by her actions.
Later, I found out she had left that company to work elsewhere (or it was
uncomfortable for her to stay because of her own unacknowledged
bad-behavior).
/Sidebar]

IMO, Musk removed an annoying-tick, and stayed focused on the humongous
issues to be resolved on his desk. Because of the slow-down of good EV
stories (automakers are not pushing for CARB credits right now, etc.), that
has made the media bored and willing to make a big-deal out of anything to
keep their editors pleased (that their writers are working/earning their
paycheck).

Below are newswires that give a little more detail on this topic:
%

http://www.maxim.com/maxim-man/elon-musk-tesla-revenge-2016-2

Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla

[dovepa via EV]

Yes but we are talking about a company that can't make them fast enough for the 
demand.
There are others that are glad to get his spot in line.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Lee Hart via EV  Date: 2/5/2016  11:55 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla 
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> I'm probably swimming against the current here, but I don't think this
> reflects well on Tesla.
>
> The blogger wasn't very polite, but these days everybody's a critic.  You
> expect that in business.  IMO, the best response to a post like that is to
> say "Thanks for your comments; guess we can't please everybody," and move
> on.
>
> To me, what Musk did suggests poor impulse control.

I'm with EVDL Admin David on this. You have to expect rude obnoxious 
customers on occasion. There are always a few spoiled rich kids, out of 
control celebrities, and just plain jerks out there.

But I expect professional behavior from companies, and good manners from 
its individuals. As CEO, Musk sets the tone. His employees are likely to 
follow his lead, so he should set a good example.

No matter what you may think of a customer personally, he should be 
treated equally, fairly, and with respect; just like everyone else. 
Otherwise, you are only stooping to his level. It reflects badly on *you*.

-- 
Society is a machine full of people with hard edges and sharp corners 
that work together poorly at best. Manners are the oil that keep them 
apart, to reduce friction so the machine works more smoothly.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla

[dovepa via EV]

I still disagree. There's a waiting line to get his cars.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 2/4/2016  
2:28 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla 
On 4 Feb 2016 at 12:39, dovepa via EV wrote:

> I disagree. Why do business with a person you expect to criticize your
> work? 

Because that critic has money, and you want some.

Because other people have money, and you want some, but they might not buy 
your product if you act like a jerk to customers.

I mean, look at what happened.  The customer said he had a bad experience at 
Tesla's introduction of the car.  Maybe he could have been more circumspect, 
but that's what you expect these days when anybody and his brother can put 
up a web site or a blog.

Did Musk say "Sorry, we'll make it up to you"?  Did he even say "Oops, 
sorry?"  Did he even just let it pass?  No, he said, in effect, "Humph, you 
dared to criticize us.  Screw you.  You can't buy our car."

WTF?

If I were that customer, my reponse would be, "Yeah, screw YOU. You can't 
have my money."

I'm really surprised at the number of people here who've leapt to Musk's 
defense.  Seriously?  What if YOU had said something negative about Tesla 
and they did this to you?  What would you say then?

Tesla undoubedly make a really good EV.  I'm glad they're doing it.  But 
they can't act like they're the only game in town any more, not when GM has 
already scooped them for their $30k 200 mile EV.

Even if they didn't have competition, treating your customers this way is 
lousy marketing.  It's seriously thoughtless move when competition is 
heating up.  

What Musk did here is indefensible, a frankly childish action. If I were a 
major Tesla stockholder, I'd be livid right about now.

> Next think he'll be writing about how dissatisfied he is with the car.

If he IS dissatisfied, then well he should.  Other potential customers 
should know.

Tesla's smartest response to that would be to offer to buy his car back.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla

[dovepa via EV]

I find that story amusing 




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 2/4/2016  
3:14 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't 
like you, so you can't have a Tesla 
From the "CWAA" department:

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/03/elon-musk-blogger-tesla-
motors-model-x

 Elon Musk personally cancels blogger's Tesla order after 'rude' post

 A Californian venture capitalist had his Tesla Motors Model X order 
cancelled after he wrote about a badly run launch event

Unimaginable wealth has brought Elon Musk a lot of benefits, from being able 
to build a private spaceflight company to planning a magnet-powered vacuum 
tube supersonic transport system between LA and San Francisco - and be taken 
seriously. But perhaps the best perk of being Elon Musk is the ability to be 
unbelievably petty.

The Californian venture capitalist Stewart Alsop learned that to his cost, 
he says, after he wrote an open letter to Musk about the badly run launch 
event for the Tesla Motors Model X (the newest car from Musk´s electric 
vehicle startup).

Headlined "Dear @ElonMusk: you should be ashamed of yourself", the letter 
listed Alsop´s issues with the event: it started late, it focused too much 
on safety, and it was so packed that even people like Alsop, who had placed 
a $5,000 deposit on the car (which was originally supposed to ship in 2013, 
but had only delivered 208 cars by the end of 2015), didn´t get the chance 
to test drive it.

Alsop concluded that "it would still be nice if you showed some class and 
apologised to the people who believe in this product".

Instead, Alsop says, Musk cancelled his pre-order.

In a follow-up post, "Banned By Tesla!", Alsop relayed his phone 
conversation with Musk: "I also hear that you are not comfortable having me 
own a Tesla car and have cancelled my order for a Tesla Model X."

He added "I must also admit that I am a little taken aback to be banned by 
Tesla. When I wrote a blog post about my BMW X1 called `My Car Makes Me Feel 
Stoopid´, the CEO of BMW didn´t take the car back."

Musk, for his part, tweeted to indicate that he doesn´t understand what the 
fuss is about:

    "- Elon Musk (@elonmusk) February 3, 2016 Must be a slow news day if 
denying service to a super rude customer gets this much attention"

It´s not the first time Musk has demonstrated the level of personal control 
he exerts over Tesla. In late January, a frustrated Tesla customer revealed 
that a refurbished car on which he had put a deposit was never delivered, 
because Musk was using it to test out a new version of the fleet´s 
"Autopilot" feature.

Tesla eventually said that that "due to human error, a car from our test 
fleet was offered for sale. We apologise that this led to a frustrating 
experience. We are working to ensure that it never happens again."

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla

[dovepa via EV]

I disagree. Why do business with a person you expect to criticize your work?
Next think he'll be writing about how dissatisfied he is with the car.




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 2/4/2016  
12:22 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Elon Musk: I don't like you, so you can't have a Tesla 
On 4 Feb 2016 at 8:00, Brandon Hines via EV wrote:

> I am amused that the blogger's defence was how super rude he was to
> another car company. 

Read it again.  That was MUSK's defense, such as it is.

I'm probably swimming against the current here, but I don't think this 
reflects well on Tesla.  

The blogger wasn't very polite, but these days everybody's a critic.  You 
expect that in business.  IMO, the best response to a post like that is to 
say "Thanks for your comments; guess we can't please everybody," and move 
on.

To me, what Musk did suggests poor impulse control.  

There's a dismaying tendency in the US today to celebrate rudeness and 
impulsive behavior as "refreshing honesty."  That's just wrongheaded and 
damaging.  

Basically, Musk had a tantrum.  I don't think he's helped himself, or his 
company, or the EV movment, by letting it become public knowledge.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] SHielded 1/0

[dovepa via EV]

Try welding cable suppliers


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: m gol via EV  Date: 2/3/2016  2:08 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Cor van de Water , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] SHielded 1/0 
I was looking for something like this:
http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=XRADXLE10


On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
wrote:

> What type you want? Must it be waterproof?
> STP (Shielded Twisted Pair) is common for outdoor Ethernet installations
> and there are ways to water-proof the connectors (using glands that seal
> on the cable so the Modular connector sits inside a weather-protected
> environment)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Chief Scientist
> Proxim Wireless
>
> office +1 408 383 7626    Skype: cor_van_de_water
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130    private: cvandewater.info
>
> http://www.proxim.com
>
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of m gol via EV
> Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 11:34 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: [EVDL] SHielded 1/0
>
> Are there any inexpensive place for shielded 1/0 cable and connectors?
>
> Mike
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Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required

[dovepa via EV]

One can measure the diameter of the wire to determine gauge 
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/AWG.phtml

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Rick Beebe via EV  Date: 1/20/2016  11:16 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required 
On 01/20/2016 11:33 AM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> Keep in mind that there is nothing to prevent someone from replacing the
> 15 amp receptacle on a 15 amp circuit with a 20 amp receptacle. You can
> still only draw 12 amps. The circuit capacity is what you care about,
> not so much the style of receptacle.
>
> The only method I am aware of to determine the ampacity of the circuit
> is to identify the breaker. There are all sorts of nifty electronic
> devices to aid you in doing this, but that is the bottom line.

Actually the only sure way is to examine the gauge of the wire attached 
to said receptacle and breaker. 14 gauge is 15amp, 12 gauge is 20amp 
(subject to distance limitations). I've seen panels where someone put a 
30amp breaker on a 14gauge wire.

Since Katrina I've done a lot of volunteer work rewiring houses in 
Biloxi, Mississippi. After the hurricane they made a code change 
requiring all the circuits to be wired with 12 gauge wire. It's a pain 
to work with but really does remove the question asked here.

The easiest way to identify a breaker is to plug something into the 
outlet and flip breakers until it goes out. A loud radio works if you 
can hear that far. If not, a second person on a cell phone is ideal. If 
you're alone, turn off all the 120v breakers on one side of the box then 
run and check the outlet. That helps cut the search time to one side of 
the box or the other.

--Rick
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Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required (was: Leaf Chargers)

[dovepa via EV]

You should not exceed the rating on your breaker in the circuit. It is sized 
for the wire installed in the walls.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Seth Rothenberg via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/20/2016  8:43 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Bill Dube <billd...@killacycle.com>, Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp 
receptacles are required (was: Leaf
Chargers) 
I have been thinking (dangerous I know)
Is there a way for an instrument (live ohmmeter / ammeter)
or an electronic circuit to recognize the gauge (and surmise
the amperage protection likely in place) ?

eg, measuring ohms from neutral to ground,
(for 120 circuits) or doing a millisecond high-load
test to see voltage drop?

(I'm not an Electrician or an EE, but I have faith
in their ingenuity :-)


Where would i need this?
For example, I got permission to charge from an inside outlet
at a small building under construction.   no idea at this time
if it is 20a.    (In this case, I could bring my circuit ID tool
and look in the panel but don't need to at level 1 :-)
(I got my EVSE cable yesterday ! :-)



On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 3:28 AM, Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> Paul,
>
> There are a number of places in your home that are _required_ by the
> national electrical code to have dedicated 20 amp circuits for the 120V
> receptacles.
> There are at a minimum five (5) 20 amp 120V receptacle circuits in a modern
> house:
> https://dbs.idaho.gov/programs/electrical/publications/2014_Homeowner_guide_brochure.pdf
> Sometimes, in a low-cost tract house without a garage there are less, (and
> in older homes there could be fewer) but typically there are quite a few
> more. The places that you will find additional dedicated 20 amp receptacles
> for; the microwave, the garbage disposal, occasionally the dishwasher, etc.
> Often, the savvy custom home builder will call for upgrades on 20 amp 120V
> receptacles for the patio, pool, workshop area, green house, deck, workout
> area, home entertainment area, basement, etc.
>
> You will notice that the code requires a 20 amp circuit for the garage, were
> your EV is likely to be parked.
>
> In commercial buildings, typically _all_ of the 120V receptacles are 20 amp.
>
> I used to be an electrician, many years ago. I wired (and rewired)
> _countless_ houses. :-)
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 1/19/2016 2:56 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>>
>> A 120volt outlet is usually only rated for 15 amps.
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp receptacles are required (was: Leaf Chargers)

[dovepa via EV]

Better check the wire and breaker before changing outlets.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Mike Nickerson via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/20/2016  8:20 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Bill Dube <billd...@killacycle.com>, Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where 20 amp 
receptacles are required (was: Leaf
Chargers) 
While the circuit in the garage is probably 20A, it may be wired with 15A 
outlets.  They are pretty easy to change, though.

If I were going to charge an EV on a 120V outlet regularly, I would probably 
change it anyway.  Most home construction uses light duty outlets that aren't 
built to take the load for hours per day.  Change it to a good heavy duty 
outlet and it will work much better.

Mike


On January 20, 2016 1:28:43 AM MST, Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>Paul,
>
>There are a number of places in your home that are _required_ by the 
>national electrical code to have dedicated 20 amp circuits for the 120V
>
>receptacles.
>There are at a minimum five (5) 20 amp 120V receptacle circuits in a 
>modern house:
>https://dbs.idaho.gov/programs/electrical/publications/2014_Homeowner_guide_brochure.pdf
>Sometimes, in a low-cost tract house without a garage there are less, 
>(and in older homes there could be fewer) but typically there are quite
>
>a few more. The places that you will find additional dedicated 20 amp 
>receptacles for; the microwave, the garbage disposal, occasionally the 
>dishwasher, etc. Often, the savvy custom home builder will call for 
>upgrades on 20 amp 120V receptacles for the patio, pool, workshop area,
>
>green house, deck, workout area, home entertainment area, basement,
>etc.
>
>You will notice that the code requires a 20 amp circuit for the garage,
>
>were your EV is likely to be parked.
>
>In commercial buildings, typically _all_ of the 120V receptacles are 20
>amp.
>
>I used to be an electrician, many years ago. I wired (and rewired) 
>_countless_ houses. :-)
>
>Bill D.
>
>
>On 1/19/2016 2:56 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>> A 120volt outlet is usually only rated for 15 amps.
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] OT fcv deliveries halted> 2few pumps, ... Fool Cells!

[dovepa via EV]

It keeps the oil companies in business


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Robert Bruninga via EV  Date: 1/18/2016  8:47 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Mark Abramowitz , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT fcv deliveries 
halted> 2few pumps, ... Fool Cells! 
>> Within a couple of years in California, renewable hydrogen
>> will make up over 40% of the pumped H2 for autos,
>> exceeding the renewable content of the grid.

No matter how I look at it, The H2 Fool cell car is just dumb.  To make it
work, they have to build an EV first complete with big HV battery, then add
a fuel cell, then add a hydrogen tank, and then expect owners to drive half
way across town to fill up once a week.  And never drive on a trip becuase
there is no fuel distribution system anywhere else.

Its foollish to do that, when an EV can be built for half the cost and
provide an excellent daily car, or a plug-in-hybrid can easily beat the
range of the Fool cell car , cost less, and use readily avaiable fuel on
evrey street corner.

The only reason these monsters are sold is compliance to the misguided
concept that a FCV gets TEN TIMES the renewable credit in the California
CAFE standards.  Just dumb.

RIP

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf Chargers

[dovepa via EV]

A 120volt outlet is usually only rated for 15 amps.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Bill Dube via EV  Date: 1/18/2016  12:07 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Seth Rothenberg , Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf Chargers 
I believe the trickle charger is limited to ~12amps at 120 volts. Thus, 
only 1400 watts or so.
They can be internally modified for 240 volt ~3 kW "euro" charging, but 
that is about it, as I understand it.

Bill D.

On 1/18/2016 8:28 AM, Seth Rothenberg via EV wrote:
> Does anyone know if the Leaf with 6.6KW onboard
> charger is supposed to come with a different kind of EVSE?
> Or is the "trickle charge" just that, regardless of
> the car's ability to charge faster?
>
> I bought an OpenEVSE, but I would like to know
> if I need to ask the dealer to replace the 12a charger
> with the correct one.
>
> Thanks
> Seth
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Re: [EVDL] OT fcv deliveries halted> 2few pumps, need appt4 slow-1/2-fill(150mi), +more

[dovepa via EV]

Currently most hydrogen is produced by natural gas reforming which is not green 
at all.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 1/16/2016  2:27 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] OT fcv deliveries halted> 
2few pumps,
  need appt4 slow-1/2-fill(150mi), +more 


'Right now its the wrong tech, at the wrong time, & the wrong price'
% fcv (fail cell) discussions are OT on the evdl.org %

http://gas2.org/2016/01/15/toyota-tells-dealers-stop-mirai-deliveries/
Toyota Tells Dealers: Stop Mirai Deliveries!
January 15th, 2016  Steve Hanley 
 
More than any other car maker, Toyota has been a strong advocate for fuel
cell powered cars. What is an FCEV? It’s an electric car that does not use a
battery as its main source of power. Instead it has a fuel cell that
converts liquid hydrogen into electricity, which is then used to turn an
electric motor. The Mirai has a tiny 1 kWh battery to help out when demand
for electricity is greater than the fuel cell can provide. The beauty of the
whole hydrogen scenario is that emissions consist of nothing more than water
vapor and heat. You can’t get any greener than that, can you?

New Toyota Mirai Video Is Inaccurate
Toyota has invested billions to develop its first fuel cell car, the Mirai.
Toyota expects to deliver a total of 300 of the cars between the United
States and Europe in 2016. Compared to the global automobile market of
nearly 50 million vehicles, that is an infinitesimal amount, no more than a
fly speck, really. But Toyota is convinced hydrogen power is the future.
With considerable urging from the Japanese government, it has bet virtually
the company’s entire  future company on hydrogen power.

But Nagoya, we have a problem! According to Inside EVs, Jim Lentz, CEO of
Toyota North America, has instructed the dealers who handle the cars,
including its highest volume dealer located in Santa Monica, California, to
stop delivering cars to new customers. Why? There just aren’t enough
hydrogen refueling stations available to for the 72 Mirai sedans that are
already on the road . The ones that do exist don’t work very well, either.
Toyota advertising for the Mirai carries the slogan “Let’s Go Places.” But
right now, there are precious few places a Mirai driver can actually go.

“It is not a stop-sale, we have just asked (the dealers) not to make
deliveries until we have a station open,” Lentz told the press at the
Detroit auto show. “There are fewer stations than we would have preferred
right now.” The California Energy Commission had projected there would be 53
hydrogen stations open in the state by the end of 2015. Instead, there were
only five and one of those is out of service most of the time. The others
had various issues that have kept them from actually pumping hydrogen. As a
result, Toyota had to hastily install temporary refueling stations to meet
the demand from Mirai drivers.

Even those were only able to fill the hydrogen tanks on board the cars half
way and drivers had to make an appointment to get their hydrogen. That left
drivers with only 150 miles of range before they had to go through the whole
agonizing process again. None of this zipping in for a quick fill up like
Toyota promised.

“I’m pretty confident by the end of the year we’re going to get to 48. It’s
just growing pains,” Lentz says. What he doesn’t say is who will foot the
bill for those stations. A hydrogen refueling station costs between $1 and
$3 million to construct. Clearly, Toyota expects the taxpayers of California
to pony up the money needed to build more.

What Toyota is left with is a hydrogen fueled car that is as homely as a
mailman’s behind, as my old Irish grandmother would say. It can only go
about 150 miles on a half tank of fuel and requires the driver to show up
when scheduled. Oh, it’s also slower than a battery electric car and has the
handling prowess of a 1948 Hudson. What’s not to like?

If the taxpayers of California have any sense, they will tell Toyota to
build its own damn refueling stations, just like Tesla is building its own
SuperCharger network. Maybe 50 years from now, the world will run on
hydrogen power, but right now, this is the wrong technology, at the wrong
time, and the wrong price.
[© gas2.org]
...
http://insideevs.com/toyota-to-selected-dealers-stop-delivering-mirai-there-is-no-where-to-refuel/#comment-782052
Toyota To Select Dealers: Stop Delivering The Mirai, There Is Nowhere To
Refuel
[2016/01/14]
% Read the comments, they are amusing/entertaining %




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
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{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

Motor Heat & RPM's
http://www.go-ev.com/PDFs/005_006_SU060213_Heat_RPM.pdf
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Lee Hart via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/14/2016  12:52 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re:  Books on converting a car to ev? 
dovepa via EV wrote:
> You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at highway 
> speed for extended periods of time. With the advance in battery technology 
> this is causing some people issues.

Series motors intended for on-road EVs have built-in fans. I've never 
needed to provide extra cooling for them in any of my EVs. The internal 
fan works *better* at high speeds -- most actually have more cooling 
than they need at high RPM. The internal fan is also an advantage they 
have over AC motors, which generally require a complex liquid cooling 
system.

Now if you're talking about a fork lift motor, some of them *are* 
sealed. They're for light-duty use (such as to run the hydraulic pumps 
for steering and lifting), or for operation in dirty or hazardous 
environments where a spark might set of an explosion.

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> I'm not a motor expert, but I suspect that the total system cost is low
> because the controller is relatively simple.

It's the combination of many things. Based on the generally available 
examples, DC motor advantages:

- Old tech: Simpler to understand, design, and use.
- Same RPM range as an ICE makes conversion easier.
- Torque-speed curves match an ICE+transmission. Maximum torque
at lowest speeds, even without a transmission.
- Easy to get: Mass produced, untold millions already in circulation.
- Cheaper: No rare earth magnets, fewer expensive power transistors,
microcontrollers and software not even needed.
- Rugged and durable. Can produce extremely high peak horsepower
without failing (which is why racers and railroad locomotives
use them).
- Very simple controllers. Can even be little more than contactors.
- Cooling usually built-in.
- Adaptable: Don't need to carefully match motors and controllers.
- Long life: Plenty of examples 50-100 years old.

On the other hand, the usual drawbacks of DC motors include...

- Boring old tech: Not fashionable.
- Lower efficiency: A consequence of being designed to be cheap
rather than efficient.
- Common examples don't do regen. It takes extra parts, so it's
usually left out to keep it simple and save money.
- Brush maintenance. Often exaggerated; brushes last at least 10x
longer than ICE oil changes.
- Hard to liquid-cool a DC motor due to the commutator. Air
cooled motors are noisier (though far less so than ICEs).

> You can't fireball the commutator of an AC induction motor because it
> doesn't have one.

No; but you can fireball the AC motor's controller. :-)

In these perennial AC vs. DC debates, it's important to keep in mind 
that they are fraternal twins. One boy, one girl; but otherwise nearly 
identical. Every generality like "boys are stronger" or "girls are 
smarter" will fail, because you can always find examples where the 
opposite is true.

All motors are really AC devices. The commutator is just a simple crude 
example of an electronic inverter. Anything you can do to optimize some 
aspect of an AC motor can also be done to a DC motor (and vice versa).

So, you can compare a *specific* AC motor to a *specific* DC motor. But 
you can't generalize from this that all motors of that type will have 
these same characteristics.

> Series motor redline RPM is much lower than induction, for the same reason.
> Commutators have a tendency to fly apart if they overspeed.

That is a consequence of the cheap plastic commutators in common use. 
There are banded and steel commutators that work fine at very high RPM.

In automotive applications, you don't really want high RPM as it 
requires an excessive amount of gear reduction to get it down to wheel 
speed.

> A series motor will overspeed if it's run at full voltage with no load...
> You also need safeguards to detect controller failure, because the typical
> failure mode for a series motor controller is FULL ON.

Yes. These are consequences of making the controller *too* simple. As 
Einstein said, "Things should be kept as simple as possible. But not 
*too* simple."

Complex systems also have these failure modes, as Audi and Toyota have 
found to their dismay (unintended acceleration).

> Regenerative braking is a major challenge with a series motor.  This is not
> the same as the plug braking available on some Curtis controllers, which is
> generally not recommended for use in a road EV.

True; but a consequence of not designing regen into the controller to 
begin with. Since every motor (AC or DC) is intrinsically a gen

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

I believe you numbers are off the Tesla P85D has a 350 kW motor in back and 140 
KW motor in front.
Converting to horsepower is mostly meaningless though what matters is torque.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Mike Nickerson via EV  Date: 1/14/2016  11:31 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Jack Wendel , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: 
Books on converting a car to ev? 
Hi Jack,

I just ran some numbers, and I think it is important to realize that you are 
essentially talking Tesla P85 or P85D levels of performance.  I wasn't sure 
what Corvette you were talking about, so I chose a relatively high end, but 
stock model.  I used the Z06 as an example.

The Z06 is about 3500 pounds stock.  As a high performance EV, it will probably 
gain about 500 pounds, so a total weight of 4000 pounds.  The Z06 has a 0-60 
time of 2.95 seconds and a quarter mile time of 10.95 seconds.

You will need power similar to the 650 hp of the stock Corvette.  The Tesla 
P85D has over 700 hp for 4600 pounds, so in the ball park.  That 650 hp is 
about 485 kW.  With a battery voltage of 400V, you need 1200 amps from your 
batteries, through the controller, and into your motor(s).  That is serious 
power! 

That is high end Tesla or high end drag racer territory.  Systems like the Leaf 
just don't have the power you need.  The Leaf system, for example, is only 107 
hp or 79 kW.  Most batteries don't have the energy density to provide that kind 
of current and power.  The small format cells used by Tesla have much higher 
current capability than most EV cells.

Another point:  While you might not need the Tesla range, a significantly 
smaller battery might not be able to provide the same power levels.  Larger 
battery packs can provide more power than smaller packs.

Finally, you need to figure out where to put all the cells in a body that 
doesn't have much space.  Ideally, for best handling, you would like to get 
them in the floor.  That lowers the center of gravity.  It might help with 
space issues too.

Personally, I would be looking at Tesla parts, rather than Leaf parts.  They 
are a much better match with your needs.  If using Leaf motors, you might need 
3 or 4 motors.  However, the Leaf battery can't provide the necessary power.

Finally, I can't resist a comment about your business plan.  I can't really 
comment on how well the plan will work with the target market, since that is so 
far outside my experience.  I am an engineer (with a Tesla P85 and a home 
conversion), and don't have any concept of vehicles as fashion accessories.  
However, I do know that you aren't the only person with that target market in 
mind.  There aren't that many people that can drop that kind of money, so you 
have to find some way to stand out from the others trying to market to the same 
few.

Are any of your advisors investing their own money in the project?  That is one 
way to judge their confidence in their advice.

Mike
P.S.  The Tesla Model S P85D with ludicrous mode would still beat the Z06 in 
0-60 and quarter mile times.  Sorry, I couldn't resist 8>).


On January 14, 2016 1:04:31 PM MST, Jack Wendel via EV  
wrote:
>Wow Lee, thanks for all the info! It let me know that DC motors aren't
>as
>"bad" as I was led to believe.
>
>I am a professional Agile/Lean software development coach. Our motto is
>"Fail fast and learn". This means it is better to do something wrong
>and
>learn what you can from it as quickly as possible than to spend
>excessive
>time in planning for a "perfect" solution and end up with nothing but
>documents.
>
>I think of my prototype car as a "EV minibike" or "EV gocart" that
>someone
>suggested as a starter project for learning. My "EV gocart" just
>happens to
>be a lot bigger.
>
>"DC is not flashy and high-tech enough for an expensive luxury sports
>car.
>You want cutting-edge style, you want flash and glamor; you want to
>make a
>statement."
>
>Exactly why my production car will be AC and have regenerative braking.
>The
>prototype will not have either of these because they provide minimal
>increase in utility (real value to me) relative to the significant
>increase
>in cost and complexity.
>
>The goals for my "oversize EV gocart" are:
>
>1) Make passes down a dragstrip and be quicker than a stock Corvette
>(as
>good or better than a "performance ICE").
>2) Be able to provide "short test rides" to people at various events
>and
>shows (let others experience EV acceleration. Charging intermittently
>is
>acceptable).
>3) Be able to drive indoors with no ventilation (not practical with an
>ICE).
>4) Be able for me to drive back and forth to work (12.6 miles each way.
>Allows me to claim "daily driver" and gain daily exposure, free
>advertising, on the road).
>
>Obviously it would be great to exceed these but if I can meet all of
>these
>I will consider 

Re: [EVDL] Time for ‘The Return of the EV’, the power of dark oily forces

[dovepa via EV]

Even when the smart phone weighed 20 lbs and only lasted 30 minutes.. the 
early adopters all got one and never looked back. 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 1/14/2016  2:19 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Time for ‘The Return of the 
EV’, the power of dark oily forces 


http://www.citizen-times.com/story/opinion/contributors/2016/01/08/guest-columnist-time-return-ev/78502336/
Guest columnist: Time for ‘The Return of the EV’
January 8, 2016  Rudy Beharrysingh

Over the holidays there were several questionable reports on electric
vehicles. One should never underestimate the power of the dark forces of
oil. Perhaps it is time for the “Return of the EV.”

In 2011 President Obama set a goal for 1 million EV’s to be on the road by
2015. Although we hit 350,000 this year, there are 1 million EV’s on the
road worldwide and the number is growing every day despite low gas prices.

What motivates a person to buy a “limited range” electric car?

1.The political implications of oil and gas are huge. Currently, the U.S.
imports about 9.5 million barrels per day of oil. About 30 percent of this
is from OPEC, with half of this from the Persian Gulf. That’s about 1.4
million barrels per day coming from the Persian Gulf. At a cost of $35 per
barrel that is $50 million per day that we (consumers) send to the Middle
East (on the order of $20 billion per year). And, that’s low compared to
what it used to be. Need I say more…?

2. We are experiencing one of the mildest winters ever on the East coast.
Global warming exacerbates the phenomenon called El Nino. For the first time
in recent history, CO2 concentration has gone above 400 ppm. These excessive
greenhouse gas concentrations lead to unpredictable weather patterns. EVs
emit less pollution and CO2 than their gas counterparts. Plus, they have the
potential to have zero emissions. A large percentage of EV owners also
install some sort of solar system to charge their car.

3. EVs are faster, cooler and cleaner than their gas counterparts. With a
relatively low cost electric vehicle, you get the performance of a high-end
gas car. Now, put that in your tail pipe and smoke it.

4. The range is not really limited. I just come home every day and plug in
my car. “Miss the gas station not, do I!”

5. Yes, there are tax credits to buy these innovative machines. However,
they expire when the manufacturer sells 200,000 electric vehicles.
Regardless, the government incentives to buy EVs are insignificant compared
to the U.S. government’s welfare checks handed to wealthy oil and gas
corporations every year (estimated around $37 billion annually).

6. Drive what you want, but thank your local EV and hybrid driver for doing
their part in cleaning the environment and helping to reduce gas prices.

7. Very little maintenance is required for electric cars. There are fewer
moving parts. While the synchronous moving of pistons up and down and rev of
an internal combustion engine (ICE) are neat and quaint, the electric car
represents a quantum leap in transportation technology.

Moving from driving a gas-powered car to driving an electric vehicle is like
giving up the old rotary phone for a new smart phone. Sure, not everyone is
ready for it, but once they drive one, there is no going back….

For a realistic look at the future of transportation see: 
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/09/06/evs-cut-global-gasoline-use-2040/

Rudy Beharrysingh is director of the Mathematics Assistance Center at UNC
Asheville.
[© citizen-times.com]




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] 2013 Leaf. 120v EVSE under hood.& retractable cord

[dovepa via EV]

Cool! I like all your charts about charging as well. Can I steal your work to 
present at the office?




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Robert Bruninga via EV  Date: 1/13/2016  9:29 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 2013 Leaf. 120v EVSE under hood.& retractable cord 
>
> > I [made] a shallow box [for the ] EVSE [under the hood]...


Then connect it to a homebrew set of J1772 pins plugged into the charging
port and to a pull out retractable cord, and we have the ultimate in L1
charging.  Just llike plugging in a vacuum cleaner.

See how I did it:
http://aprs.org/charging-DIY.html

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

 I never really compared whether induction motors generated more heat then a 
series wound DC motor. It's just that modern induction motors come with liquid 
cooling that I'm not sure you can get with a series round DC motor.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/14/2016  
12:19 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re:  Books on converting a car to ev? 
On 14 Jan 2016 at 6:34, dovepa via EV wrote:

> You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at highway
> speed for extended periods of time. 

Can you explain what would cause this?  Not being an engineer, I don't 
understand why a series motor producing a given amount of power would 
produce more heat than a shunt, sepex, or induction motor.  

Is it that the efficiency is lower?

The Prestolite and ADC series motors had/have built in fans, but a fair 
number of builders add more cooling.  Typically it's a nice beefy bilge 
blower firing into a collar attached to the brush access ports.  That's 
another source of noise.  :-(

Come to that, though, Solectria's 1990s-era induction motors had big fins on 
the outside, and they had to have a big axial fan forcing air over those 
fins.  Without the fan, they'd overheat on the highway.  Those were 
supposedly pretty efficient motors, too, and not really all that powerful.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at highway 
speed for extended periods of time. With the advance in battery technology this 
is causing some people issues.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 1/13/2016  
10:55 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re:  Books on converting a car to ev? 
Series DC motors are about as cheap as you can get in terms of raw torque 
and HP per dollar.  That's why they're used in forklifts (and electric 
drills and vacuum cleaners).  

I'm not a motor expert, but I suspect that the total system cost is low 
because the controller is relatively simple.  You only need one blinking big 
switch (semiconductor array) because (1) the motor itself takes care of 
commutation (turning DC to AC) and (2) the field isn't separately excited so 
doesn't depend on the controller.

AFAIK most (all?) of the drag racers use series motors.  You can find out 
more about that over at NEDRA (nedra.com).

So if they have so much torque and power for the money, why doesn't Tesla 
use series motors?

Some possible answers:

Their torque characteristics (peak at stall, falling off at higher rpm) are 
the reverse of an ICE's.  That would be unfamiliar and maybe uncomfortable 
for some ICEV drivers.  If you have a manual trans in your series-motor 
conversion EV, you UPSHIFT when you need to accelerate hard.

Because of the mechanical commutator, series motors are noisier and need 
more maintenance than brushless motors.  OTOH, you can't fireball the 
commutator of an AC induction motor because it doesn't have one.  

Series motor redline RPM is much lower than induction, for the same reason.  
Commutators have a tendency to fly apart if they overspeed.

A series motor will overspeed if it's run at full voltage with no load.  It 
can easily go from nominal rpm to explosion rpm in a second or less.  You 
need safeguards to detect this and shut down the motor in case something in 
the driveline breaks.  A blast shield on the motor isn't a bad idea.

You also need safeguards to detect controller failure, because the typical 
failure mode for a series motor controller is FULL ON.  This is known in 
Audi-ese and Toyota-ese as "unintended acceleration," and with 750hp behind 
it, is apt to be fatal.  Normally if an induction motor's inverter fails, 
the car will stop (in some failures, possibly rather abruptly, which has its 
own hazards).

Regenerative braking is a major challenge with a series motor.  This is not 
the same as the plug braking available on some Curtis controllers, which is 
generally not recommended for use in a road EV.  

A lot of good and expensive silicon has become smoke trying to handle regen. 
Very few commercial EV controllers today try to do it.  Zapi is the only 
brand I know of, but there may be others.

I'm probably an outlier on this list, since a lot of the DIY folks here are 
series motor users and like them.  However, I might be more similar to your 
target customer.  While I'm not in the market for a $150k high performance 
sports car, if I were, I wouldn't buy one with a DC series motor. 

No offense to anyone, but at that price point I expect refinement, and 
that's just not what you get with a series motor drive.  They tend to be 
more-brawn-than-brain, hair-all-over beasts.  But if you like driving an ICE 
with a wild cam and a loping idle, maybe a series motor would be right up 
your alley.

Another option that's seldom mentioned is a DC sep-ex motor.  With a proper 
controller, its torque characteristic is more familiar and (IMO) better 
suited to a car.  Regen is easy and common.

The controller is somewhat more expensive than a series motor controller, 
since it has to supply field current.  However, it's quite a bit cheaper (or 
should be) than an induction motor inverter, since it doesn't need 3 or more 
big semiconductor switches.  Controller failure still can mean full on and 
flat out, so your controller logic has to detect that and take action, but 
the motor won't normally overspeed if suddenly unloaded.

The downside is that you still have mechanical commutation, which brings in 
the maintenance and noise issues.

I personally don't know who currently makes a high power sep-ex EV motor.  
Maybe someone else here does.

Hope this helps.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Aero, Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

Yea Jerry, I made the same observation. Many of them just converted an ICE 
vehicle like the Volt and the i-MiEV not taking aero into account.
In addition, weight is the driving factor on range below highway speeds. 
Reducing weight is the best way to increase range. Probably why Teslas use a 
lot of aluminum.




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: jerry freedomev via EV  Date: 1/14/2016  4:57 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Aero,
  Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev? 
 
  Hi Bill and All,    I agree 
with you EV's should be aerodynamic but in reality, most are not that good. 
Take the Leaf they say is .28cd but tests prove it is higher.  And why it uses 
nearly as much a the much large, heavier Tesla S that is .  
  Next while some Mustangs, Corvettes are not great, some are fairly 
aero and with some tweaks, very aero.    And aero 
is in the details. One can be a very aero shape but badly done door seams, 
wheelwells, window attachments, etc can kill it.
 Jerry Dycus  

  From: Bill Dube via EV 
 To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 1:09 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?
   
If you are going to sell them after you build one of your own, it is 
going to be very difficult to beat the Tesla on performance, safety, and 
value/dollar.

You want a convertible, cut the top off of a Tesla. Do it very nicely 
and neatly of course, but that would be your best option. Sell that 
customized model of a Tesla, using the same business model as van 
conversions, stretch limos, and bulletproof cars use.

One thing that you are not taking into account is that all OEM EVs are 
_very_ aerodynamic. (No exceptions.) This is directly related to range, 
the cost of the battery pack, the weight of the battery pack, and the 
cost of the car. A car with crappy range simply won't sell. Likewise, a 
car with a heavy (and expensive) battery pack to make up for a bad Cd 
will take a performance hit because of the extra weight, and won't sell 
either.

    ICE cars really don't have to be aerodynamic to sell well. Poor 
aero doesn't impact the purchase price, or the weight of the vehicle, 
and doesn't alter the performance appreciably. All that really changes 
is the EPA estimated mileage. The customer doesn't care mostly because 
he doesn't think that far ahead.

    Thus, if you want a "classic" or "sporty" or some other styling, 
you can't sacrifice aerodynamic drag to achieve it. You must carefully 
style the car to achieve the desired look, while being very very 
aerodynamic. Not easy to do, but you must to build an EV that will 
actually sell. To sell, it must have range and performance and be 
competitive in cost. That, in turn, requires that it have a low Cd. 
Thus, a Mustang or a Corvette won't work. Awful Cd.


  
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v

[dovepa via EV]

I'm an engineer too. And almost everyone I know is an engineer. 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  
10:46 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v 
On 12 Jan 2016 at 20:22, dovepa via EV wrote:

> Point was I don't need Lee's opinion or yours or anyone else's this sort of
> information is provided by the manufacturer.

Oh, yes you do. ;-)

I'm not going to name names, but my own experience shows that there's at 
least one battery manufacturer whose instructions, if followed to the 
letter, will murder their batteries by overcharging them.

I personally have killed more lead batteries with overcharging than with 
undercharging.  Your mileage may vary.

Lee and Bill are engineers.  They both have a LOT of years of experience 
with lead batteries in EVs. They both know what they're talking about. Not 
to be too strident about it, but if you disregard their advice, well, you 
deserve the results you get.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

Watch EVTV it's free. Evtv.me 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Bobby Keeland via EV  Date: 1/12/2016  8:40 PM 
 (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Books on converting a car to 
ev? 
I plan to buy a new ev when the range is high enough, and they don't cost
as much as a Tesla S. In the near term I am considering the conversion of
my 1951 Chevy pickup to ev, probably with it's own solar panels. I could
also charge it from the solar panels that power my house. Can anyone
recommend fairly up-to-date books that are specific to converting an ICE
vehicle to EV?

Bob Keeland
Forest Dynamics
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v

[dovepa via EV]

What's your problems? I never said 12.9. I said greater than.
That's why I posted the link so it'd be clear.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  10:02 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v 
You understand that the row labeled "Charger Voltage Setting" is not the 
actual voltage coming out of the charger, but the knob position or 
setting that you would see printed on the faceplate of the charger.  
(See note #3 directly under table 3.) The actual voltage that comes out 
of the charger when you set it to "12v" is either 13.8-14.4 volts if the 
"charge" indicator is on, or 13.5 volts if the "float" indicator is lit.

The very lowest charge voltage listed for a "12 volt" battery is 13.2 
volts. A 12v battery simply won't charge fully with less voltage. This 
is the very definition of the "float" voltage. It is the _minimum_ 
voltage needed to _maintain_ a lead acid battery at 100% charge. Below 
the float voltage, the battery will never charge fully. At 12.9 volts, 
it likely would not charge very much, if at all.

This assumes of course that the battery is at 25 Celsius, of course. You 
would need a higher voltage at lower temperature and a lower voltage at 
higher temperature.

Batteries are very very complicated chemical beasts. They are not ideal 
electrical devices, and don't follow simple rules like most electrical 
components.

If you want to learn a little about batteries, I would suggest that you 
start by reading:
Battery Reference Book, by T. R. Crompton
http://survival-training.info/Library/Batteries/Battery%20Reference%20Book%203rd%20ed%20-%20T.%20Crompton.pdf
and
Rechargeable Batteries Application Handbook, by Gates Energy
http://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable-Batteries-Applications-Handbook-Engineers/dp/0750670061

For the small investment of ~$40 or so, and a number of evening's time, 
you can gain a decent basic knowledge of rechargeable battery 
technology. Not at all a light read, I'm afraid.

Bill Dube'

On 1/12/2016 7:22 PM, dovepa via EV wrote:
> Besides Bill, I can read too!
>   Take a look at table 3.
> Point was I don't need Lee's opinion or yours or anyone else's this sort of 
> information is provided by the manufacturer.
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
> From: Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  6:17 PM  
> (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: 
> Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v
> You say 2.15 volts per cell. That is 2.15 x 6 = 12.9 volts for a "12
> volt" lead acid battery. That is the _incorrect_ voltage for charging a
> 12 volt battery. The battery would never reach 100% charge at that voltage.
>
> You would want to charge to at least the "float" voltage of 13.2 volts.
> The battery would eventually reach full charge at the float voltage. It
> might take a long time, but it would get there.
>
> According to the Trojan battery reference (that _you_ gave,) you have a
> choice of a float voltage of 13.2 volts, or a "daily charge" of 14.8
> volts, or an "equalize charge" of 15.5 volts.
>
> The Trojan page you referenced is specific to _flooded_ lead acid
> batteries however, rather than the sealed lead acid battery, either AGM
> or perhaps "Gell Cell", that the fellow was originally asking advice
> about. If that is indeed the fact (likely not, as a "gell cell" is
> typically really a VRLA AGM these days,) then something between 13.2 to
> 14.4 would be the appropriate voltage, just as Lee Hart's battery page
> says.
>
> A real gell cell would foam the gelled electrolyte if you gave it an
> "equalize" charge listed on the Trojan battery page, and that would be
> the end of it.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
>
> On 1/12/2016 11:49 AM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>> There are things you can do to maximize life of the cells and the 
>>manufactures have recommended voltage and current settings but they will 
>>charge all the way up with anything above 2.15 volts.
>> I prefer to go to manufactures recommendations myself.
>> http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/battery-maintenance/
>>
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
>> From: Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  12:35 PM 
>>  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v
>> Paul,
>>
>> It is not so simple.
>> As David su

Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v

[dovepa via EV]

Besides Bill, I can read too!
 Take a look at table 3.
Point was I don't need Lee's opinion or yours or anyone else's this sort of 
information is provided by the manufacturer.




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  6:17 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v 
You say 2.15 volts per cell. That is 2.15 x 6 = 12.9 volts for a "12 
volt" lead acid battery. That is the _incorrect_ voltage for charging a 
12 volt battery. The battery would never reach 100% charge at that voltage.

You would want to charge to at least the "float" voltage of 13.2 volts. 
The battery would eventually reach full charge at the float voltage. It 
might take a long time, but it would get there.

According to the Trojan battery reference (that _you_ gave,) you have a 
choice of a float voltage of 13.2 volts, or a "daily charge" of 14.8 
volts, or an "equalize charge" of 15.5 volts.

The Trojan page you referenced is specific to _flooded_ lead acid 
batteries however, rather than the sealed lead acid battery, either AGM 
or perhaps "Gell Cell", that the fellow was originally asking advice 
about. If that is indeed the fact (likely not, as a "gell cell" is 
typically really a VRLA AGM these days,) then something between 13.2 to 
14.4 would be the appropriate voltage, just as Lee Hart's battery page 
says.

A real gell cell would foam the gelled electrolyte if you gave it an 
"equalize" charge listed on the Trojan battery page, and that would be 
the end of it.

Bill Dube'



On 1/12/2016 11:49 AM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>   There are things you can do to maximize life of the cells and the 
>manufactures have recommended voltage and current settings but they will 
>charge all the way up with anything above 2.15 volts.
> I prefer to go to manufactures recommendations myself.
> http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/battery-maintenance/
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
> From: Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  12:35 PM  
> (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: 
> Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v
> Paul,
>
> It is not so simple.
> As David suggests, it is best to read Lee Hart's battery charging basics:
> http://www.evdl.org/pages/hartcharge.html
>
> There is a _lot_ more to charging batteries than
> you might think. Even Lee's "brief" tutorial
> leaves quite a few of the subtleties out.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 10:37 AM 1/12/2016, you wrote:
>> Lead acid cell voltage is 2.15 volts. 6 cells
>> make 12.9 volts. Anything above 12.9 will charge
>> it fully. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE
>> smartphone Original message
>> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
>> <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  9:07
>> AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion
>> List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: [EVDL] Lead
>> battery charging to 13.2v I put a gel cell on a
>> benchtop power supply and it charged overnight
>> to zero current at about 13.2v.  So I upped it
>> to 13.8 to finish the charge and it basically
>> would not take cany more current. I always
>> thought the 13.8 and even 14v was the float
>> voltage and you had to at least get to that
>> voltage.  I also remember that something like
>> 13.2 is the highest one should go to provent any
>> gassing… Anyway, if  one leaves a battery
>> overnight on 13.2v and it tapers to 0, is it
>> “full”.  If so, what is 13.8 all
>> aboiut.  Bob -- next part
>> -- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed... URL:
>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160112/c3d15243/attachment.htm>
>> ___
>> UNSUBSCRIBE:
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA
>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://group

Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v

[dovepa via EV]

 There are things you can do to maximize life of the cells and the manufactures 
have recommended voltage and current settings but they will charge all the way 
up with anything above 2.15 volts.
I prefer to go to manufactures recommendations myself.
http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/battery-maintenance/

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Bill Dube via EV  Date: 1/12/2016  12:35 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v 
Paul,

It is not so simple.
As David suggests, it is best to read Lee Hart's battery charging basics:
http://www.evdl.org/pages/hartcharge.html

There is a _lot_ more to charging batteries than 
you might think. Even Lee's "brief" tutorial 
leaves quite a few of the subtleties out.

Bill D.

At 10:37 AM 1/12/2016, you wrote:
>Lead acid cell voltage is 2.15 volts. 6 cells 
>make 12.9 volts. Anything above 12.9 will charge 
>it fully. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE 
>smartphone Original message 
>From: Robert Bruninga via EV 
> Date: 1/12/2016  9:07 
>AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion 
>List  Subject: [EVDL] Lead 
>battery charging to 13.2v I put a gel cell on a 
>benchtop power supply and it charged overnight 
>to zero current at about 13.2v.  So I upped it 
>to 13.8 to finish the charge and it basically 
>would not take cany more current. I always 
>thought the 13.8 and even 14v was the float 
>voltage and you had to at least get to that 
>voltage.  I also remember that something like 
>13.2 is the highest one should go to provent any 
>gassing… Anyway, if  one leaves a battery 
>overnight on 13.2v and it tapers to 0, is it 
>“full”.  If so, what is 13.8 all 
>aboiut.  Bob -- next part 
>-- An HTML attachment was 
>scrubbed... URL: 
>
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v

[dovepa via EV]

I said any voltage above 12.9


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  6:17 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v 
You say 2.15 volts per cell. That is 2.15 x 6 = 12.9 volts for a "12 
volt" lead acid battery. That is the _incorrect_ voltage for charging a 
12 volt battery. The battery would never reach 100% charge at that voltage.

You would want to charge to at least the "float" voltage of 13.2 volts. 
The battery would eventually reach full charge at the float voltage. It 
might take a long time, but it would get there.

According to the Trojan battery reference (that _you_ gave,) you have a 
choice of a float voltage of 13.2 volts, or a "daily charge" of 14.8 
volts, or an "equalize charge" of 15.5 volts.

The Trojan page you referenced is specific to _flooded_ lead acid 
batteries however, rather than the sealed lead acid battery, either AGM 
or perhaps "Gell Cell", that the fellow was originally asking advice 
about. If that is indeed the fact (likely not, as a "gell cell" is 
typically really a VRLA AGM these days,) then something between 13.2 to 
14.4 would be the appropriate voltage, just as Lee Hart's battery page 
says.

A real gell cell would foam the gelled electrolyte if you gave it an 
"equalize" charge listed on the Trojan battery page, and that would be 
the end of it.

Bill Dube'



On 1/12/2016 11:49 AM, dovepa via EV wrote:
>   There are things you can do to maximize life of the cells and the 
>manufactures have recommended voltage and current settings but they will 
>charge all the way up with anything above 2.15 volts.
> I prefer to go to manufactures recommendations myself.
> http://www.trojanbattery.com/tech-support/battery-maintenance/
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
> From: Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  12:35 PM  
> (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: 
> Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v
> Paul,
>
> It is not so simple.
> As David suggests, it is best to read Lee Hart's battery charging basics:
> http://www.evdl.org/pages/hartcharge.html
>
> There is a _lot_ more to charging batteries than
> you might think. Even Lee's "brief" tutorial
> leaves quite a few of the subtleties out.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 10:37 AM 1/12/2016, you wrote:
>> Lead acid cell voltage is 2.15 volts. 6 cells
>> make 12.9 volts. Anything above 12.9 will charge
>> it fully. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE
>> smartphone Original message
>> From: Robert Bruninga via EV
>> <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 1/12/2016  9:07
>> AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion
>> List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: [EVDL] Lead
>> battery charging to 13.2v I put a gel cell on a
>> benchtop power supply and it charged overnight
>> to zero current at about 13.2v.  So I upped it
>> to 13.8 to finish the charge and it basically
>> would not take cany more current. I always
>> thought the 13.8 and even 14v was the float
>> voltage and you had to at least get to that
>> voltage.  I also remember that something like
>> 13.2 is the highest one should go to provent any
>> gassing… Anyway, if  one leaves a battery
>> overnight on 13.2v and it tapers to 0, is it
>> “full”.  If so, what is 13.8 all
>> aboiut.  Bob -- next part
>> -- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed... URL:
>> <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160112/c3d15243/attachment.htm>
>> ___
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>> http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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Re: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v

[dovepa via EV]

Lead acid cell voltage is 2.15 volts.
6 cells make 12.9 volts.
Anything above 12.9 will charge it fully.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Robert Bruninga via EV  Date: 1/12/2016  9:07 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: [EVDL] Lead battery charging to 13.2v 
I put a gel cell on a benchtop power supply and it charged overnight to
zero current at about 13.2v.  So I upped it to 13.8 to finish the charge
and it basically would not take cany more current.



I always thought the 13.8 and even 14v was the float voltage and you had to
at least get to that voltage.  I also remember that something like 13.2 is
the highest one should go to provent any gassing…



Anyway, if one leaves a battery overnight on 13.2v and it tapers to 0, is
it “full”.  If so, what is 13.8 all aboiut.  Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Bew Nissan Leaf...and...Level 2 charging

[dovepa via EV]

I bought the Siemens off of amazon. Love it

http://www.amazon.com/Siemens-VC30GRYU-Versicharge-Electric-Flexible/dp/B00MFVI92S
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Seth Rothenberg via EV  Date: 1/7/2016  12:51 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: [EVDL] Bew Nissan Leaf...and...Level 2 charging 
Dear fellow EV drivers,
An update and a question...

I had a great first day going to work and back in my 2013 Leaf S,
Saw a Tesla in front of me (of course) at the GWB.

When I got to work, I sent an email to the boss
about charging EVs.   There is already another Leaf.
Commercial buildings are not required to have outlets on the outside :-)
But there are 6 Utility poles with multiple primaries
running along the side of the parking lot.,

It turns out, I may need the charging at work,
as in the winter, I drive my 60 miles with just one detour
mentioned below, and consumed the 74
miles predicted.    Will try again next week with
lower heat and more non-freeway driving.
(Due to highway delays, no time is lost
by switching to non-highway driving)

There is a DCQC on the way home.

At lunch, I took my colleague for a drive to
the end of the parking lot so we could
feel the pinned-to-the seat feeling.

Then we walked to the other end of the office complex
to see which company had I seen a Tesla charging at?
I found it and the Tesla, not on charge today.
Maybe tomorrow I will try to introduce myself :-)


I would like to hear what people are doing for L2 charging at home?
I see that evseupgrade offers an upgrade of the L1 charger...
about $300

They also offer pre-upgraded chargers for about $675
which would give me the option of leaving one home
and keeping one in the car, which seems important
at this time.

Meanwhile, Clipper Creek offers some chargers,
no "Core return" required.
I have not seen reviews of either one yet



Thanks
Seth
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To See It (v)

[dovepa via EV]

I made an excell spreadsheet and charted my vehicle. Weight was by far the 
dominating force until 65 miles an hour when are drag passed it.
In most cases you can divide the with by 10 to get a good estimate of Wh/m.  
There are variables light temperature and others things they discussed that 
alter this but still an excellent rule of thumb. 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Michael Ross via EV  Date: 1/7/2016  6:00 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: This Is The GM-200mi EV Before You Are Supposed To
  See It (v) 
It is a bit of a bugaboo that weight is important in terms of energy
consumption. More important is air drag losses, and rolling resistance.  In
the thought experiment where there are no losses to friction, the weight is
meaningless except for whatever change in elevation there is from start to
finish - if you go down overall you actually benefit from greater
gravitational potential at least for that trip. But, it is really a wash in
the theoretical sense..

Yes, it takes more energy to get the heavier vehicle up to speed, but that
is then inertia, and you get it back with some regen instead of wasteful
brakes, or you get it back not losing as much speed when going downhill.
The weight can add to rolling resistance (losses to heat in the tires), but
this is really second order stuff.  If the heavier car is smoother in the
air that is very important.



On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Willie2 via EV  wrote:

> On 01/07/2016 03:12 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>
>> What am I missing here?  I don't understand why the responses to this post
>> are talking about how much energy a Tesla takes.
>>
> I guess I failed to be clear though it seemed quite obvious to me. Let me
> try again:
> 1) The Bolt display was shown with extraordinary high energy consumption
> per mile.  You expressed astonishment at the numbers.
> 2) I commented that such high consumption was not unusual early in a trip
> in cold weather with a cold battery.  The Bolt display clearly indicated
> only the first part of a trip, ~10 miles.
> 3) I cited some Tesla numbers, in cold weather with a cold battery, that
> approached the Bolt numbers.
> 4) From there, discussion went on to warming batteries on shore power thus
> circumventing that high initial energy consumption from the battery.
>
>>
>> The article was talking about the GM car with the cringeworthy name, BOLT,
>> not a Tesla.  That's what I was responding to.
>>
>> They're not at all comparable.  The Bolt is (will be?) a much lighter car
>> than the Tesla.
>>
>> The Tesla S weighs over 4600 lb.  That's more than a Ford F150 4x4 pickup.
>> You'd expect it to be a class A amphog.
>>
>> But not the Bolt.  The rumor mill suggests that it'll probably be about
>> the
>> same weight as a Leaf.  I'd expect it to be a bit more, just because it's
>> made by GM, but not so much that it would use 3 times the energy that the
>> not dramatically optimized Leaf does.
>>
> There is not much difference in energy per mile between a Leaf and a
> Tesla.  Leaf instrumentation is uninformative but battery size and range
> indicates that a Leaf does no better than about 200 wh/m. Teslas can do
> around 250 wh/m in warm weather at 50-60 mph. Typically, in warm weather,
> Teslas can do 80mph on 350 wh/m.
>
>>
>> Maybe there were mitigating factors in this case, but my first impression
>> is
>> - that's just gross.
>>
> Yes, the numbers were gross.  Perhaps it was cold car with a cold battery.
> I expect the Bolt, under good conditions, will do 200-250 wh/m.
>
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-- 
To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison


A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 576-0824  Google Phone
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Re: [EVDL] Bew Nissan Leaf...and...Level 2 charging

[dovepa via EV]

That would be a DC to DC converter not a charger. Many AC to DC converters will 
accept DC voltage I use one in my EV for the 12v out system. It takes the pack 
DC 160 volts and make 12 volts DC for the auxiliary power. There is a formula 
to calculate AC to DC equivalent voltage you can Google it. I believe 110 volt 
AC is equivalent to 170 Volts DC but you would need to check that because this 
is off of memory.
Not all AC devices can use DC you will need to check the specs and maybe design 
to see if a particular product will work.
I imagine it would be costly for a device that puts out 100 amps or so... level 
3 DC fast charge is 100 or 125 amps I believe.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Seth Rothenberg via EV  Date: 1/7/2016  12:29 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bew Nissan Leaf...and...Level 2 charging 
Does anyone know of a DC Quick Charger that will accept DC?
Google seems to know of one, for $24,000 - not for me :-)

I have 18.2KWh in Thundersky cells that I could use

Or even a Level 2 charger that will take DC

Thanks

Seth
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Re: [EVDL] Bew Nissan Leaf...and...Level 2 charging

[dovepa via EV]

Oh sorry, that would be DC to AC yes an inverter would work but it's possible 
the Leaf charger will work on DC voltage.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Seth Rothenberg via EV  Date: 1/7/2016  2:04 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Rush Dougherty , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bew Nissan 
Leaf...and...Level 2 charging 
Thanks.  Those are 2 good leadswhat I mean is,
I could bring 18.2 KWh of Thundersky LifePO4 @ 182 VDC
(or more likely half of that - 9.1 KWh @ 91 Volts)
50 or 25 100Ah cellsand I would like to go into a L2 charger
like an upgraded Leaf charger.

I have not ruled out buying a hefty off-grid inverter.
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Re: [EVDL] Melted fuse leg (not blown fuse!)

[dovepa via EV]

That's not luck the inverter should limit the current. All the ones I have seen 
do. 
We're you batteries ruined? Did they explode?
I have an imiev and it charges the batteries fully but it limits regen current 
to 100 amps I believe. Been  a while since I looked. I'm sure the inverter 
limits voltage as well.
I was merely addressing short current bursts into a full cell. 



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Cor van de Water via EV  Date: 1/6/2016  1:48 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Melted fuse leg (not blown fuse!) 
Paul,
I am afraid that it will not be a good idea to do a one-time test
at a certain (low) current level and judge the effects for a practice
of repeatedly doing this at much higher current levels,
especially if this has potential to quickly destroy an expensive pack
or even set the vehicle on fire.

I have reported on the following event before and this was on lead acid,
but just to get an idea what regen braking can do:
My previous EV truck was an S10 where the US Electricar conversion was 
re-converted by Wavedriver with their own controller for a V2G project they did 
with PG in 1994-1995

The Wavedriver controller allowed its characteristics to be configured via 
serial port, so I played around with the level above which regen would be 
disabled and a couple other things.
This controller could accelerate and regen at its max current level, 250A
(this was a 312V setup with an AC Induction motor (Hughes) direct coupled to a 
manual transmission box that was always in 2nd gear, effectively serving as 
reduction gear to allow the motor to hit redline of 9000 RPM at 72MPH.

So the next day after increasing the regen threshold to always regen instead of 
only after 10% discharge, I drove onto the freeway, was merging onto the next 
and had someone not giving me space so I braked.
The pack voltage went from the well-charged 320V to 420V as the batteries could 
not absorb the 100kW of power that was thrown at them in their charged state 
and the controller detected a max-allowed DC bus level critical error and shut 
down to protect itself.
I coasted to the side of the freeway, restarted the car to reset the controller 
and drove on and re-configured the re-gen parameter to only start after 10% 
charge had been taken out.
This power and voltage level would have been sufficient to kill my EV if it had 
not been stopped by a safety built-into the controller, not only the sheer DC 
bus voltage but also the voltage per cell could have caused damage when 
sustained, the BMS (if I would have had one) could have failed and the pressure 
quickly building up in the cells at such an over-voltage could have caused 
cells to burst or at least vent violently.
I was lucky the controller had this safety protection, I do not know what a 
Li-Ion equipped vehicle with a different controller would have done, but I 
think there is a good reason that regen is disabled or severely limited, 
hopefully the BMS simply says: overvoltage, no more charge current allowed.
And that is a good thing.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626    Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130    private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: Paul Dove [mailto:dov...@bellsouth.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 4:44 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Melted fuse leg (not blown fuse!)

Thanks Cor,

I wasn't confused but I did think about that after I hit send and I agree it 
wasn't quite correct, it's been a while since I did this but when I measured my 
vehicle I was using 350 amps to accelerate the vehicle and regen would generate 
a max of 100 amps if I remember correctly. So my point is still valid. It's not 
likely you will damage the battery even if fully charged. 

I did a test on the bench where I took a fully charged cell and put 15amps into 
it for 5 minutes. The cells heated up 40 degrees C in 5 minutes. It's the heat 
that accelerates damage so yes the effect would not be nothing but a few 
seconds of braking will not be enough to cause significant heat rise on a cell 
IMO.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 5, 2016, at 8:01 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> Paul,
> While the data you quote is correct in a certain context, your explanation is 
> not, since it uses a different context.
> Regen braking will put back in your pack around 5% of an average trip
> since a trip typically consists of long 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: There is plenty of time to upgrade UK grid weak spots

[dovepa via EV]

I think it's unfounded. I didn't even notice an increase in my bill  so how 
is it going to bring down the grid. Silly talk by the talking heads


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 12/30/2015  4:14 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: There is plenty of time 
to upgrade UK grid weak spots 


'Intervention will be required when 40+% of <1.5kW grid capacity network
customers have 3.5kW (16A) charging plugins'

http://insideevs.com/electric-avenue-project-denies-claims-uk-grid-ready-mass-amount-electric-cars/
My Electric Avenue Project Denies Claims That UK Grid Is Not Ready For Mass
Amount Of Electric Cars
[December 25, 2015]  Mark Kane

[images  
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/129180_1_5.jpg
Nissan LEAF in My Electric Avenue

http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/011215myelectric.jpg
National grid blackout attempt
]

In the UK, [media-outlet] The Sun recently raised concerns on the electric
car charging infrastructure by posting an article entitled “Energy
Secretary: Electric cars could trigger National Grid blackout“.

With reporting UK sales nearly every month, we already know that there are
tens of thousands of people who are already trying to make a national grid
blackout (by driving plug-ins)…but they’ve been unsuccessful, just like
those who also own toasters or other electrical appliances.

Apparently, so far someone is smart enough to get more energy blocks and
power lines in place as the demand has grown over time.

According to the article, Energy Secretary Amber Rudd is worried about the
electric grid when millions of electric cars are on the road.

    “Energy Secretary Amber Rudd is so worried she asked the Cabinet Office
to referee the dispute.

    A source said: “Environment and transport ministers want millions more
electric cars on the streets.

    “But when Amber saw these plans her reaction was ‘f***, f***, f***’
because she is really worried we don’t have enough power.

    “Supplies are stretched already so imagine if everyone charges their
cars at the same time.

    “She called in Cabinet Office Minister Oliver Letwin but he said the
real issue is delivering power to homes — which is not governmental
responsibility.” ...

The problem with such thinking is that the lead time between 45,000 EVs on
the road and let’s say 5,000,000 EVs, is also more than a significant enough
time period to allow for improvement of the infrastructure step-by-step.

Especially since most EVs are charging while other electric appliances are
off at night, so the peak demand isn’t even growing directly.

My Electric Avenue report states that the UK electric network will withstand
millions of EVs. Only 32% of local electricity networks will need upgrading
to accommodate a time when 40-70% of cars are electric. The current market
share of new cars exceed 1%, while share in the total fleet is not easily
measured at this point in time.

    “The results, which come at a time when sales of plug-in cars have
increased by 716% over the past two years, show that across Britain 32% of
low voltage (LV) feeders (312,000 circuits) will require intervention when
40% – 70% of customers have EVs, based on 3.5 kW (16 amp) charging.
Susceptible networks are typically characterised by available capacity of
less than 1.5 kW per customer.”

We have plenty of time to upgrade weak spots in the system.

On the other hand, demand for electricity is good news for all kinds of
powerplants, as their job is to produce and sell electricity (hopefully
using clean methods of production).

Investment in powerplants is profitable over the long-term, so we don’t
think utilities will complain when there are millions of electric cars on
the roads. And more and more EV owners are adding solar and home energy
storage all the time, so this blackout threat seems a non issue to us.
[© insideevs.com]



[ref
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-MP-Amber-Rudd-sez-UK-grid-too-weak-for-34M-EVs-tp4679027.html
EVLN: MP Amber Rudd sez UK grid too weak for 34M EVs
Dec 04 2015
]
...
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/UK-grid-too-weak-for-34M-EVs-not-when-we-stop-pumping-gas-too-tp4679031.html
UK grid too weak for 34M EVs (not when we stop pumping gas too!)
Dec 04, 2015




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at 
Nabble.com.
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Re: [EVDL] Improving Leaf economy & range.

[dovepa via EV]

I thought the Leaf used a water heater and a heater core. at any rate I saw 
a diy project where a guy replace his i-MiEV heater with a kerosene heater.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Peri Hartman via EV  Date: 12/24/2015  10:42 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Improving Leaf economy & range. 
What about the cabin heating?  If you have an older model (I have 2011), 
it's resistive heating.  One recent day, I got just 45 miles of range 
before hitting 1 bar (outside temp around 45F).  A lot of that poor 
range was due to climate control (including defrost).

I did a quick google search but didn't see any posts on how to upgrade 
the heater to a heat pump.  Don't even know if it's possible without a 
good deal of customizing and ripping out stuff.

However, if possible, I think it would be a good gain for in-city trips 
where air drag is not so much an issue.  Another plus would be, I 
presume, quicker supply of heat.  The stock heater takes nearly 10 
minutes to warm up the cabin.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "via EV" 
To: "Cor van de Water" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 
Sent: 24-Dec-15 12:10:34 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Improving Leaf economy & range.

>Another small (if rather more difficult to live with!) would be to 
>convert the original paintwork to a rougher (Matt) finish, the purpose 
>being to reduce the laminar flow development over the body... A very 
>minor -and expensive- improvement(only difference at highway speeds) 
>but almost certainly no-one else has it!
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>>  On 24 Dec 2015, at 12:32 PM, Cor van de Water via EV 
>> wrote:
>>
>>  Lawrence,
>>  Google is your friend:
>>  There is a thread for Aero mods on MyNissanLeaf
>>  http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=19181
>>
>>  Cor van de Water
>>  Chief Scientist
>>  Proxim Wireless
>>
>>  office +1 408 383 7626    Skype: cor_van_de_water
>>  XoIP   +31 87 784 1130    private: cvandewater.info
>>
>>  http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>  This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential 
>>and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you 
>>received this message in error, please delete it and notify the 
>>sender.  Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of 
>>any part of this message is prohibited.
>>
>>
>>  -Original Message-
>>  From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence 
>>Rhodes via EV
>>  Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 3:10 PM
>>  To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org
>>  Subject: [EVDL] Improving Leaf economy & range.
>>
>>  I had some thoughts on Improving the CD of a Leaf. Moon hubcaps & 
>>fender skirts.  I was thinking these two simple additions might help.  
>>Any other ideas other than a tail cone.  Lawrence Rhodes
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>>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000km Bridgestone World Solar Challenge

[dovepa via EV]

It could if it weighs 500 lbs including passenger. 
So, not likely


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Alan Arrison via EV  Date: 12/20/2015  9:28 PM 
 (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 3000km Bridgestone 
World Solar Challenge 
There is simply no way a viable, fully enclosed, highway capable, 
electric vehicle ( that can pass safety tests ) can do anywhere near 
55wh per mile.


On 12/20/2015 2:47 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> This is the view from the LOSER zone. The real news is the Dutch and Japanese 
> teams and Tesla's sponsorship of the Cruiser Class.  The Class that will 
> spawn the practical cars of the future.  The range of these vehicles is 1000 
> KM.  Remarkable for vehicles that only have a 15kw battery pack.  Average 
> speed is 55mph. Energy usage of these machines is 55wh per mile. Lawrence 
> Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leno's Garage spins Local Motors' 3D-printed EV on national TV

[dovepa via EV]

All the vehicles on MARS are evs. ;)


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Roland via EV  Date: 12/8/2015  1:08 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: EVDL Administrator , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leno's Garage 
spins Local Motors' 3D-printed EV on
national TV 
   
If you are living on Mars and want to get around in a EV, you can just down 
load it instead of waiting 30 minutes shipping time from Earth. 

 

Roland 


- Original Message - 

From: EVDL Administrator via EV 

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 

Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 11:19 AM

Subject: Re: [EVDL]EVLN: Lenoâ?Ts Garage spins Local Motors' 3D-printed EV on 
national TV



far from an expert on 3d printing, but to me it looks like two things. 

One is a way to design and custom manufacture one-off or limited-run parts 
right in your shop.  That's pretty cool, but I get the impression that the 
process is slow, and the materials are too expensive for more than limited 
use.

The other side of 3d printing seems to be a sort of Netflix for objects.  
You can download a design and make it at home, instead of having to order it 
from someone and have it shipped in.  I guess that's good in some 
situations.

However, I really don't see how either of these would apply to a production 
EV.  

ANd then there's this quotation from Local Motors, which frankly sounds like 
gobbledegook to me:  "At Local Motors, we are hell-bent on revolutionizing 
manufacturing ... Car manufacturers have been stamping parts the same way 
for more than 100 years. Now we have the technology to make the process and 
products better and faster by linking the online to the offline through DDM. 
This process will create better and safer products, and we are doing just 
that."  

Huh???

Maybe I'm missing something, but 3d printing in this setting looks 
suspiciously like just another technical bandwagon for folks seeking 
investors' money to ride around on and wave their banners.  Can someone 
explain what's so exciting here?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 2017 Chevy 200mi Production EV Spied Before 2016 CES Reveal

[dovepa via EV]

Looks like the BMW i3 


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 12/7/2015  2:22 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 2017 Chevy 200mi 
Production EV Spied Before 2016 CES
Reveal 


'Is anyone worried about the curb appeal of EVs?'

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101216_2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-production-car-spied-before-2016-ces-reveal
2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV: Production Car Spied Before 2016 CES Reveal
Dec 1, 2015  Marty Padgett

[images 
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/chevrolet_100536991_l.jpg

http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/chevrolet_100536987_l.jpg

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/chevrolet-bolt-ev-concept_100515752_m.jpg
Chevrolet Bolt EV Concept

http://images.thecarconnection.com/med/chevrolet-bolt-ev-concept-2015-detroit-auto-show_100496971_m.jpg
Chevrolet Bolt EV Concept, 2015 Detroit Auto Show
]

These are the first photos of the 2017 Chevrolet Bolt electric car.

The long-awaited, pure electric descendant of GM's EV1--and a cousin of the
new Chevrolet Volt, or at least a close-sounding relative--the Bolt will go
into production next year with an anticipated all-electric driving range of
200 miles.

GM also has said the base price of the Bolt will be about $30,000, after
federal incentives.

Chevrolet also says it plans to sell the Bolt in each of the 50 states, a
marked difference from other electric vehicles built largely as "compliance
cars"--vehicles sold only in enough volume to meet strict emissions rules.

The Bolt was shown as a surprise concept at the 2015 North American
International Auto Show, and has since been undergoing final development.

The most substantial change appears to be at the side and rear, where the
Bolt adopts some of the gloss-black trim applied to the last-generation
Volt--but also, at the rear pillar, where it adopts a floating-canopy look
like the one on the current Nissan Murano and Lexus RX.

It's expected the rather wild concept-car interior will be toned down for
production--but to what degree remains an unknown, since our spies weren't
able to get interior photos.

Recently, the Bolt's production-version reveal had been all but confirmed
for the upcoming 2016 CES, to be held the first week of January, in Las
Vegas.

The Bolt's drivetrain is expected to generate 200 miles of driving
range--but also, considerable interest. Its maker, LG Chem, won't just be
shipping battery packs to GM; the battery supplier is also in charge of
sending the rest of the powertrain, including the electric-drive motor,
onboard charger, instrument cluster, infotainment system, and other
components.
[© greencarreports.com]



http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/1/9828344/chevrolet-bolt-electric-spy-photos
Chevy's all-electric 2017 Bolt spied ahead of January debut
December 1, 2015  Chris Ziegler

[image  
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/aw3ZipYn6E5ZeFIs5C87r4nKycs=/0x234:2250x1500/1600x900/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/4763/bolt-001-copy-1.0.0.jpg
]

Autoblog appears to have scored a few spy photos of the upcoming Chevy Bolt,
GM's first high-range electric car — a vehicle that promises over 200 miles
on a charge for around $30,000. That stands to make it the first practical,
affordable EV on the market when it launches in late 2016 after a CES debut
this January.

A lot of the concept Bolt's styling carries over, but as Autoblog notes,
there's an element of BMW i3 here, too, especially toward the back. Overall,
the car falls in line with Chevrolet's current design language, borrowing
bits of the Impala, Malibu, and the 2016 Volt that just recently went on
sale. The Bolt won't be a particularly large car, but it could still woo a
few families thanks to its utilitarian hatchback design (and that 200-mile
range is critical if GM hopes to sell this as the only car a family needs).

The Bolt will be trying to steal thunder from the Tesla Model 3 next year,
which is expected to be shown in March but won't likely launch in production
until 2017 — and, if the Model S and X are any indication, supply could be
constrained, particularly in the car's early days. Between the Bolt and the
Model 3, automakers appear to be on the cusp of ushering in an era of
usable, real-world EVs that normal people can actually afford; they may not
have the insane 0-60 times of a Model S P90D, but ubiquity is arguably the
EV industry's next major challenge.
[© theverge.com]
...
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-spied-undisguised-news
Dec 2015 ...  the Bolt will share some of its underpinnings with the Sonic,
expect the Bolt to be pitched as a crossover, which could explain why the
prototype here has subtle roof rails and black fender trim. The crossover
proportions (à la Ford C-Max) also could help mask any extra height that
might have been required to package the batteries ... The design appears to
ditch much of the Bolt concept’s 

Re: [EVDL] S-10 air dam, J1772 inlet behind flip up license plate

[dovepa via EV]

Nice work


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Jay Summet via EV  Date: 11/30/2015  10:45 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
[EVDL] S-10 air dam, J1772 inlet behind flip up license plate 
I've completed the (mechanical) portions of mounting a J1772 inlet, 15 
amp inlet, and control buttons/dials behind a flip up license plate for 
my S-10 conversion.


A writeup with pictures is located here:

http://www.summet.com/blog/2015/11/29/s-10-ev-new-j1772-and-120-volt-charging-inlets/


A 2 minute overview Video is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3zsZOSzxG0


In the process I found an online distributor (getallparts.com) that was 
apparently closing out their supply of an after-market smooth front air 
dam that replaces the stock one. (OE # 15658455, Partslink GM1092157) 
and bought mine for $9.42 (+ $18 S/H)so if you have an S-10 
conversion that may be of interest.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Any recent surveys or focus groups of EV owners? (burning coal?)

[dovepa via EV]

Easy answer. It's called government regulation. Specifically the air pollution 
control act.
England enacted similar legislation around the same time after 4000 people died 
in London after a 4 day fog.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Lee Hart via EV  Date: 12/1/2015  1:57 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Any recent surveys or focus groups of EV owners?
  (burning coal?) 
A related question, if I may?

Once upon a time, everyone burned coal in factories, businesses, and 
homes for heating and cooking. City air quality was often atrocious. 
There were even some epidemics and mass deaths as a result.

I remember my grandparents using coal, at least into the late 1950's. 
But somehow, it all stopped rather suddenly. I was too young to know why 
or how this was achieved.

What caused the sudden change? And, could that same effect happen again, 
to bring us to a "tipping point" so encourage a rapid change from coal 
and oil to cleaner technologies?
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that it needs doing. -- anonymous
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Re: [EVDL] A math formula can model li-ion pack aging, Pyrite pack

[dovepa via EV]

No, you have to be a member. I can email it


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: tomw via EV  Date: 11/19/2015  8:42 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: Re: [EVDL] A math formula can model 
li-ion pack aging, Pyrite pack 
Yes I would like to get a copy.  Could you post a link?  Thanks!

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leaf electric vehicle pooled purchases save$

[dovepa via EV]

Yes they are all over Georgia as well since they had a 4500 credit there.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Ben Goren via EV  Date: 11/18/2015  8:03 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: brucedp5 , Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Leaf electric vehicle pooled 
purchases save$ 
On Nov 18, 2015, at 4:39 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

> This discount, co-developed by the counties, Nissan North America and
> Boulder Nissan, brings the entry-level Leaf S down to $23,461 from $31,810
> before the federal ($7,500) and state (PDF) (~$5,000) tax credits for which
> the Leaf also qualifies.

Am I reading this right? If you're in Colorado, you can buy a brand-new Leaf 
for under $11,000?

If so...that is simply insane. Never mind all the electric stuff; the Leaf is a 
great _car,_ and already a bargain at twice that price. That's the sort of 
price that the only excuse for new car buyers to go with something else would 
be an actual inability to make the Leaf work with lifestyle needs -- as in, you 
really do need to haul four tons of gravel every other week, or you actually do 
drive 300 miles / day, and there's no way to press some other car into that 
service while the Leaf does all the daily driving.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] A math formula can model li-ion pack aging, Pyrite pack

[dovepa via EV]

Thanks that's very interesting. I believe racing is what pushed ice vehicles as 
well


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Jukka Järvinen  Date: 11/18/2015  7:01 AM 
 (GMT-06:00) To: Paul Dove , Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List  Cc: Lee Hart  Subject: Re: 
[EVDL] A math formula can model li-ion pack aging, Pyrite pack 
The elevated temperature for Li-ion performance was known method at NEDRA PIR 
and Wayland invitationals like 10 yrs back. I was there and I kept telling this 
what we saw in our cell tests back then. Higher death rate too. NMC cells from 
TS at that time could be preheated with high current charging just before peak 
load as it drove more li-ions in right places as additional effect. This also 
killed the cell in a way that you needed to elevate the temperature more on 
every cycle to get same power out. At normal temperature the cell had become 
"bad cell" after few cycles. We could now design and make 100C peak cells for 
dragsters with bi-polar structure and solid stacking. The lessons learned keep 
pushing the horizon further which we recognize as our technological limit. We 
are living truly exciting times. -Jukka  
2015-11-18 14:17 GMT+02:00 Paul Dove via EV :
I was speaking of performance



Sent from my iPad



> On Nov 17, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

>

> Michael Ross via EV wrote:

>> Years ago, before improvements in testing, that may have been applied to

>> "work better," but definitely, high temps are not a recipe for "works

>> longer."

>

> This is true for *all* battery chemistries, as far as I know. Higher 
> temperatures always increase their amphour capacity (and shorten their life).

>

> --

> Do the thing that needs to be done, even if no one else yet notices

> that it needs doing. -- anonymous

> --

> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] A math formula can model li-ion pack aging, Pyrite pack

[dovepa via EV]

Jack Richard came to this conclusion years ago. He said Li-Ion batteries work 
better hot. It's in one of his videos I watched. I don't remember details but 
it was during all the Leaf problems in Arizona.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 11/17/2015  2:19 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] A math formula can model 
li-ion pack aging, Pyrite pack 


'Cheap-materials fool’s-gold pyrite battery'

http://www.idtechex.com/research/articles/simple-mathematical-formula-models-lithium-ion-battery-aging-8646.asp?donotredirect=true
Simple mathematical formula models lithium-ion battery aging
Nov 11, 2015  Penn-StateU,Volvo Group Trucks Technology

Hybrid electric vehicles, cell phones, digital cameras, and the Mars
Curiosity rover are just a few of the many devices that use rechargeable
lithium-ion batteries. Now a team of researchers has a simple mathematical
formula to predict what factors most influence lithium-ion battery aging. 

Lithium-ion batteries function by moving lithium ions from the negative
electrode to the positive electrode and in the opposite direction when the
battery charges. How often and exactly how that battery is used determines
the length of a battery's life. Complex models that predict battery aging
exist and are used for battery design. However, faster, simpler models are
needed to understand the most important factors that influence aging so that
battery management systems in hybrid electric vehicles, for example, can
better control lithium-ion batteries. 

"We started out by making models specifically for Volvo's batteries that
were tuned to their specific chemistry and showed that the models matched
experimentally," said Christopher Rahn, professor of mechanical engineering,
Penn State. "We then focused on simplifying the aging models. Now, we have
the ultimate simplified aging model down to a formula." 

According to Rahn, a battery ages, or degrades, whether it is sitting on a
shelf or used. The main cause of lithium-ion battery aging is the continuous
formation of the solid electrolyte interphase (SEI) layer in the battery.
The SEI layer must form for the battery to work because it controls the
amount of chemical reactions that occur in the battery. As the battery is
continually used, however, small-scale side reactions build up at the SEI
layer, which decreases battery capacity -- how much of a charge the battery
can hold. Models allow researchers to understand how different factors
affect this degradation process so that longer-lasting, more cost-efficient
batteries can be made. 

Hybrid electric vehicles combine the efficiency of electric vehicles with
the power and longevity of gasoline-powered vehicles because they have both
a gasoline-fueled conventional internal combustion engine and an electric
motor powered by batteries. The electric motor uses regenerative brakes,
which take the energy that was moving the car forward and convert it to
mechanical energy, putting the electric motor into reverse and slowing down
the car. The electric motor acts as a generator and takes the electricity
that is generated to store in batteries for future use. This is in contrast
to conventional braking systems in which braking energy is wasted when
friction converts the energy into heat. 

According to the researchers, this new simple aging formula takes into
account only the factors shown to most influence lithium-ion battery aging
by affecting growth of the SEI layer, which include state of charge, how
often the battery charges/discharges completely, operating temperature, and
current. 

"Car companies can use this formula to quantify which factors are
contributing the most in aging and focus more on them and less on all of the
other factors that don't play as much of a role," added Tanvir Tanim,
graduate student in mechanical engineering, Penn State. 

As part of the study, Tanim and Rahn compared the accuracy of their formula
to that of more complex models using commercially available batteries. They
found that their simple formula works just as well. 

"Whenever you simplify a model, there are some things lost," said Rahn. "We
have complicated models because they are very accurate. As you simplify, you
have to justify every assumption that you make. I wasn't sure we could
simplify the model down to a formula. It's pretty amazing to explicitly see
how things depend on one another." 

Rahn and Tanim have already seen the benefits of having a simple formula to
model battery aging by using it to show that increasing the temperature of
lithium-ion batteries in hybrid electric vehicles extends the life of the
battery, which is contrary to what most researchers think. This effect was
something that Volvo had previously seen with their batteries, and using
this aging formula, Rahn and Tanim could explain why. 

Learn more at the next leading event on the topic: Electric 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: 30kWh Leaf Sets Fastned.nl L3 Charging Record

[dovepa via EV]

In my experience with Lifepo4 cells they achieve higher Ah capacity with higher 
charge currents. I observed this on the bench as well as in my Celina EV. Now I 
have an i-MiEV and I get 5 miles more range charging with Level II than I do 
charging on Level I


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 11/16/2015  1:55 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: 30kWh Leaf Sets 
Fastned.nl L3 Charging Record 


http://insideevs.com/2016-30-kwh-nissan-leaf-sets-fastned-fast-charging-record/
2016 30 kWh Nissan LEAF Sets Fastned Fast Charging Record
[20151110]  Eric Loveday

[image  
http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/fastned1.jpg
30 kWh 2016 Nissan LEAF Sets Fastned Record
]

According to Fastned, no electric car has charged quicker from 0 to 90% than
the 2016 Nissan LEAF with the 30 kWh battery pack.

It seems the added capacity and/or new chemistry allows the 30 kWh LEAF to
stay in the fast charging sweet spot a bit longer and thus is actually
charges from 0 to 90% more quickly than the 24 kWh LEAF.

We should make clear – Fastned is talking about total percentage of battery
charged (90%), not total kWh received over 30 minutes.

Editor’s note: at least that is the assumption (re:90% fill), as we aren’t
sure about the 21 kWh displayed as being a true 90% fill of a 2016 30 kWh
LEAF without seeing the starting point of the charge – we suspect some
usable capacity (2-3 kWh?) was still on board in reserve at initiation.

There’s likely some software/hardware tweaking on the bigger battery LEAF
that allows for this more rapid charging at the fringes of battery usage.

Nissan did say upon release of the 2016 edition’s specs (full 
details [
http://insideevs.com/2016-nissan-leaf-107-miles/
] ) that charging between the ‘very low’ battery warning level to 80%
charged comes up in about 30 minutes, netted 22% more miles of ranged gained
over the same amount of time.

Regardless, Fastned says the 30 kWh LEAF is now the 0 to 90% record holder
on its fast charging network.  Overall, this is not a significant increase
in terms of kWh retained, but hopefully illustrates the improving capacity
of newer batteries to accept a higher rate of charge throughout a full
cycle.

Check out the Fastned images above for some additional charging details.
[© insideevs.com]




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use: 
http://evdl.org/evln/


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Re: [EVDL] Watt-Hr Motorcycle Efficiency...

[dovepa via EV]

You would need to include the driver.
On a car the difference between 2500 and 2700 is not as significant as 500 and 
700. However I have not converted a motorcycle so I am not even sure the rule 
of thumb applies


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: "Ing. Marco Antonio Gaxiola via EV"  Date: 
11/12/2015  12:59 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] Watt-Hr 
Motorcycle Efficiency... 
 

Considering the rule of EVs efficiency of 250Watt-hr per mile on a 2500 lbs
compact car,  May it apply same in order to calculate the energy efficiency
of a prototype motorcycle?. Please help me / correct me to do the closer
approximations:

 

    Motorcycle total weight (already electric): 500 lbs

 

    That would be aprox 50Watt-hr per mile?

 

    So, having a 48V - 100Ah pack = 4,800Watt-hr pack installed
on that Motorcycle within that weight, it could have an expected range of
(4,800 / 50 ) 96 miles?

 

 

Marco Gaxiola

Energy EV

 

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Re: [EVDL] Rickard's EVTV let the smoke out> overcharged pack fire blew up

[dovepa via EV]

I don't remember that claim but he certainly claims that most fires are caused 
by the BMW not shutting down the charger. 
Does anyone have more details on this?


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 11/8/2015  
4:45 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rickard's EVTV let the smoke out> overcharged pack fire
blew up 
Not to cause controversy, but do I recall right that Jack Rickard is one of 
the guys who've said that lithium batteries without BMSes never catch fire? 
Or was that someone else?

Certainly that's a claim I've heard, on the EVDL and elsewhere.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Big-Electric Shocks Big-Oil

[dovepa via EV]

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
Big Electric Shocks Big Oil

California’s new emissions law enlists utilities to help wean drivers off 
gasoline.
[OR so they are selling to the public]
It was no idle threat. SB 350 envisions cutting greenhouse gas emissions to 40 
percent below 1990 levels by 2030 and 80 percent by 2050. Language in the bill 
directs regulators to help reach those ambitious goals by making it easier for 
the state’s 23 million drivers to opt for vehicles that run on
electricity instead of gasoline. The law requires the California Public 
Utilities Commission to solicit proposals from electric companies for
“multiyear programs and investments to accelerate widespread transportation 
electrification to reduce dependence on petroleum.”
[Sounds like an attempt to get the state to pay for infrastructure to compete 
with Teslas superchargers.]



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i-MiEV is America’s lowest cost EV, for a reason

[dovepa via EV]

I have never had the need for fast charging since I bought mine 8 months ago


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: "SLPinfo.org via EV"  Date: 10/26/2015  8:58 
AM  (GMT-06:00) To: "JoeS." , Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List  Subject: Re: [EVDL]
EVLN: i-MiEV is America’s lowest cost EV, for a reason 
Joe,

Your post is very timely for me.  I appreciate you coming to the defence of
this fun little car.

My lead sled S10 conversion was due for new batteries and I have grown
tired of both battery maintenance and (as a non-mechanic, non-engineer)
worrying about what happens if something breaks down.  So this past
Saturday my wife and I went out and test drove a 2011 Leaf and a 2012
i-MiEV.

The $3k less for the i-MiEV is ultimately what sealed the deal for me, but
I agree whole heartedly with all your comments.  My only regret is ours
doesn't have the fast charge port (not standard on earlier models).  It was
our only choice however as it appeared to be the only used i-MiEV available
in the Portland area right now.  But never having used any public charging
stations before I don't know how many fast chargers we have in the area
anyway.

Btw-I personally found the Leaf's responsiveness from a dead stop quite
pedestrian compared to the i-MiEV.

Peter Flipsen
Hillsboro, OR
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[dovepa via EV]

Good point. They definitely are not trying to sell them.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 10/24/2015  
10:17 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck
Before Tesla 
On 24 Oct 2015 at 6:44, dovepa via EV wrote:

> No one creates a market IMO.

Apologies for going a bit off topic here, but it's to make a point.

I'm not an economist so maybe I have my terminology wrong.  I don't know 
that it was actually "creating a market," but consider what the big 
automakers did in promoting trucks and SUVs.  

Until the 1980s, pickup trucks were for craftsmen and farmers.  The poor 
adolescent rural kid who had to drive his date to the dance in his dad's 
pickup truck was a standing joke.  Meanwhile, SUVs (Jeep, IH Scout, Land 
Rover, Nissan Patrol, Toyota Land Cruiser) were noisy and rode rough; they 
were mostly for sportsmen.  

Detroit wasn't happy.  They made big profits on big, gas hungry cars, but 
those cars were subject to the US "gas guzzler" tax, which hurt sales.  
They'd even had to downsize the Cadillac and Lincoln.

Then they hit on the idea of pushing big, gas-hungry TRUCKS, which weren't 
subject to the gas guzzler tax because they were supposedly work vehicles.

IIRC Dodge was one of the first to "civilize" a pickup truck with a fancier 
interior, softer springs, and noise proofing.  (They also made a pickup with 
a vinyl roof at one time!)  There was a long line of ads showing how trucks 
and SUVs could fit into a suburban lifestyle.  And what do you know - truck 
sales took off.  Today the top selling vehicles are often trucks.  That's 
the power of advertising.

So IF the automakers truly wanted to create demand for EVs (which as I say 
may not be the same thing as "creating a market"), either passenger car or 
truck, they know how to do it.  But right now there's no incentive for them 
to do so.  

It's interesting to contemplate though.  What if building their compliance 
EVs drove down EV component prices to the point where they were making MORE 
profit on EVs than on ICEVs?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] gliders still valuable?

[dovepa via EV]

There is another post that says it's a scam


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: fred via EV  Date: 10/24/2015  5:46 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: via EV  Subject: [EVDL] gliders still 
valuable? 
I don't see too much group chatter about conversions, but I'm sure there's 
still that sort of thing going on. If someone in Florida needs a 2002 Honda 
glider, there's a free one offered on Craigslist for this area:
Free red honda it is broke have title (Deltona)
It says Daytona Beach, but it's about 30 miles southwest of Daytona, running 
down I-4.
I'm not the offerer, so if you have an interest in the vehicle as a glider, be 
sure to contact the original posting party.
fred

|   |
|   |   |   |   |   |
| Free red honda it is broke have title (Deltona)Hello my name is bob this 
honda is a 2002 decent body but blown motor was going to get motor from junk 
yard but the city gave my mom a ticket for it being in front yard so it has to 
go quick she is... |
|  |
| View on daytona.craigslist.org | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
|   |


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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Queen'sU DeLorean EV unveiled on 'Back to the Future' Day

[dovepa via EV]

I've been hearing about this since 2009.. are they ever actually going to 
do it?


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 10/24/2015  2:52 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Queen'sU DeLorean EV 
unveiled on 'Back to the Future'
Day 


'A free DeLorean ride from Lyft was given on 10/21/2015'

http://www.irishnews.com/arts/film/2015/10/19/news/-electric-delorean-unveiled-on-back-to-the-future-day-299092/
'Electric' DeLorean unveiled on Back to the Future Day
19 October, 2015

[images  
http://www.irishnews.com/picturesarchive/irishnews/irishnews/2015/10/19/154217178-2bbfa4b4-1bda-4690-ae12-7f56a35a21dc.jpg
Queen's University Belfast are to unveil a hi-tech electrical DeLorean
]

A HI-TECH electrical version of the DeLorean car is to be unveiled in
Belfast to mark the 30th anniversary of Back To The Future.

The film franchise has ensured the cars retain a cult following after hero
Marty McFly used one to travel back in time.

He accidentally transported himself 30 years into the past, to 1955, when
his parents were in high school. Marty's interference with his parents' love
story intervened with the chances of his own birth, pushing him to do
anything to get back "home" to 1985.

Queen's University Belfast will unveil its electric DeLorean on Wednesday
October 21, the exact date that McFly travelled to in the film's 1989
sequel, Back to the Future II.

Dr David Laverty, who leads the project, said the project was about
modifying a car into an electric vehicle, but staff and students "wanted to
do it in style".

"The DeLorean was the obvious choice because of its strong connection to
Belfast and its starring role in the Back To The Future movies," he said.

He said in the future more energy would come from renewable electricity.

"The electrification of transport is a major global challenge, so projects
like the Queen's Electric DeLorean are crucial in equipping young engineers
with the knowledge and expertise to build the electric vehicles of the
future," Dr Laverty added.

The DeLorean's silver gull-wing door design was immortalised by the 1985
Hollywood film starring Michael J Fox a few years after the collapse of the
original manufacturing firm in the north.

When Back To The Future hit cinemas in 1985, it raked in millions of pounds
in ticket sales, became the highest-grossing film of the year and landed a
sound effects editing Academy Award and three more nominations.

The first film was released in 1985, three years after the closure of the
original factory in Belfast. Fewer than 9,000 cars had rolled off the
production line at the Dunmurry plant.

Dr Laverty added: "The DeLorean was in a poor state of repair when we took
ownership in January 2014, and since then our students have worked with
experts within Queen's Electrical Energy laboratory - one of the few
university facilities in the UK dedicated to teaching and research of
electrical generators and motors - to develop the car's hi-tech electric
engine."
[© irishnews.com]



http://www.autoworldnews.com/articles/15711/20151022/electric-delorean-arrives-time-back-future-30th-anniversary-photos.htm
All-Electric DeLorean Arrives In Time For 'Back To The Future' 30th
Anniversary (PHOTOS)
Oct 22, 2015 | Sonja Killebrew  
http://images.autoworldnews.com/data/images/full/18674/qub-electric-delorean.png?w=600
...
http://www.farminglife.com/national/electric-delorean-to-be-unveiled-to-mark-back-to-the-future-anniversary-1-7018905
Electric DeLorean to be unveiled to mark Back To The Future anniversary
19 October 2015  A hi-tech electrical version of the DeLorean car is to be
unveiled in Belfast to mark the 30th anniversary of Back To The Future
...
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/northern-ireland-news/queen-s-university-students-convert-delorean-to-electric-power-1-7019777
Queen's University students convert DeLorean to electric power
[20151019] ... Queen s students at work converting the DeLorean to electric
power. Philip  Bradfield. p.bradfi...@newsletter.co.uk @Phil_Bradfield ...
His vehicle was built  in Northern Ireland in August 1981 and ended up in
South Carolina by 1992,  returning to Limavady ... Tickets can be booked at
http://goo.gl/tPEHDE ...
...
http://www.cnet.com/au/news/electric-delorean-back-to-the-future-day/
Irish students build all-electric DeLorean for Back to the Future Day
21 October 2015  by Andrew Krok

http://iusbpreface.com/2015/10/21/suit-settled-over-car-auto-used-in-back-to-the-future-films-14868/
Suit settled over auto used in 'Back to the Future' films
Elsie Buchanan  Oct 21, 2015  He said in the future more energy would come
from renewable electricity. ... 'This project was about modifying a auto
into an electric vehicle, but we wanted to do it in style ...



http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/lyft-will-offer-delorean-rides-10-21-2015
Gave free DeLorean ride from Lyft on 10/21/2015
October 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck Before Tesla

[dovepa via EV]

No one creates a market IMO. Elon filled a market that was already there. He 
even said so he said he say rich people driving a prius and said someone 
should make a car for them. They rest make them because of government mandate. 
Big difference. 
If the model 3 comes out it will sell. Problem so far is that they cost more to 
produce because of the batteries. All new technology starts that way


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Ed Blackmond via EV  Date: 10/23/2015  2:21 PM 
 (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: GM Would Be Smart To Launch An e-Pickup Truck
Before Tesla 

> On Oct 23, 2015, at 11:07 AM, Ben Goren via EV  wrote:
> 
> If the engineering team of a major auto manufacturer couldn't make a 50 kW 
> system suitable for an hybrid with a gross weight less than that of the 
> typical American passenger...that team should be fired.
> 
Unless they were not doing exactly what they were hired not to do.

The major auto manufacturers have all proven that they can make electric 
vehicles. They know the limitations of what they have produced, how to correct 
them, and how to manufacture EVs cost effectively. Now they are waiting for 
somebody to come along and spend the money to create a market. Once that 
happens, they will all make as many as people will buy.

Even Nissan knows how much they make selling EVs compared to ICEVs. EV revenue 
is insignificant in comparison. No manufacturer is going to spend money 
creating a market just to watch other manufacturers benefit from their 
investment.

Tesla created a market that didn't exist and isn't big enough for any major 
manufacturer to notice or care if they do notice. If Tesla  creates a market 
big enough to attract the attention of the major manufacturers, then the major 
manufacturers will jump in with both feet. One that is late to the game with 
their own effort will buy what is left of Tesla's auto business.  

I think Tesla will push its market to the point just below something that will 
interest major manufacturers.  Going further will doom them.

Ed
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Re: [EVDL] VW's 'dieselgate' puts spotlight on electric cars in Germany

[dovepa via EV]

It's hard for government to target the demise of an industry like oil. Are 
officials are elected and no one would back such a plan or very few. Everyone 
has someone in their family or that they know earning a living from oil.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Ben Goren via EV  Date: 10/23/2015  9:16 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
[EVDL] VW's 'dieselgate' puts spotlight on electric cars in Germany 
Depressing to consider that, even in Germany with all its solar and wind power 
and now the VW diesel mess...even *that* isn't enough to launch EVs into the 
mainstream.

http://phys.org/news/2015-10-vw-dieselgate-spotlight-electric-cars.html

"The government's goal 'is quite simply not achievable,' said Stefan Bratzel, 
director of the Center of Automotive Research in Bergisch Gladbach.

"There was 'a lot of euphoria, but no vision for a feasible economic model' for 
the electric car in Germany, he complained."

Sorry, but that's just bullshit. The Nissan Leaf makes plain that low-cost 
high-quality EVs are possible. Teslas prove that EVs are the future for 
no-holds-barred luxury sedans. And PIHs like the Volt and Germany's own BMW i3 
demonstrate that an "80/20" solution is practical for all the edge cases people 
like to latch onto.

It's not rocket surgery.

Slap a 50% tax surcharge on all passenger diesel fuel in light of the scandal 
and distribute the money equally to every registered owner of an EV in monthly 
payments. Problem solved.

...of course, that would harm the quarterly profit projections of the people 
who buy the politicians, so it ain't gonna happen...but we need to stop 
pretending that the problems are technological and realize that they are 100% 
political at this point.

The technology is solved. Yes, it's going to get better, and significantly so 
-- but we're already at "good enough," by any reasonable measure.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: i-MiEV is America’s lowest cost EV, for a reason

[dovepa via EV]

I love my i-MiEV. I too drive 20 miles to work 40 mile round trip. I've had the 
car 7 months. Only twice did I get close to empty in my commute. Once 59 miles 
and once 64 miles. The i-MiEV has the best battery chemistry IMO. GS YUASA 
LEV50. 
It has plenty of room and more power than most of the gasoline vehicles on the 
road. From a red light one can blow most vehicles away with acceleration. 
On the highway most EVS are at the end of the torque band but this vehicle 
never made me feel overpowered even at 70mph trying to pass.




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 10/21/2015  5:04 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: i-MiEV is America’s 
lowest cost EV, for a reason 


http://www.boston.com/cars/news-and-reviews/2015/10/16/mitsubishi-miev-america-lowest-cost-electric-for-reason/vl7y92uWJVpjEgPrKPHJcO/story.html
Mitsubishi i-MiEV is America’s lowest cost electric, for a reason
October 17, 2015  Keith Griffin

[images  / Wieck
http://p.o0bc.com/rf/image_700w/Boston/2011-2020/2015/10/15/Boston.com/BCOM/Images/10.17.2016_Mitsubishi_iMiEV.jpg
2014 i-MiEV Silver

http://p.o0bc.com/rf/image_700w/Boston/2011-2020/2015/10/15/Boston.com/BCOM/Images/10.17.2014_Mitsubishi_iMiEV_Interior.jpg
]

You get what you pay for.

On a stand-alone basis, one could tolerate the 2016 Mitsubishi i-MiEV. With
nothing to compare it to, it’s not a bad little car and there is the added
appeal that it runs on electricity.

That was the case when it was introduced in 2012. Its only competition was
the Nissan Leaf, but so much has changed in the electric vehicle universe
since then. Unfortunately, the Mitsubishi i-MiEV has stood still and is
being outpaced by the competition.

Mitsubishi points out the i-MiEV is the least expensive electric vehicle on
the road with a starting price of $22,995 (before an $850 destination
charge). The company also cites the $7,500 federal tax credit. Massachusetts
has a $2,500 rebate available. You need to talk to a tax professional,
though, to understand how the tax credit and rebate work.

It’s the price of the batteries that turn what is basically a $12,000
vehicle into one with a price tag of $23,000. The Mitsubishi i-MiEV just
feels cheap with doors that seem to have the heft of cat food cans and an
interior filled with hard plastic surfaces. Mitsubishi might have been smart
to not seek the “lowest priced EV” title and instead funneled additional
upscale materials into this car even if it meant a higher MSRP.

Other sedans like the electric Ford Focus, Volkswagen eGolf, and the Nissan
Leaf cost more yet are substantially nicer inside. They also get additional
range, which justifies their higher prices.

For those interested in the numbers, the lithium-ion main drive battery pack
consists of 88 individual battery cells. Its total energy storage capacity
is 16 kWh. The EPA says it has a range of 62 miles. In my week with the car,
the meter consistently showed 72 miles and I observed mile-per-mile equal to
the meter.

My wife drove the Mitsubishi to work and back, a distance of about 46 miles
round trip. It went out with a full charge and came back with about 27 miles
left. She sacrificed air conditioning only because we weren’t sure if she
could use it and make it home. It turned out to be an unjustified concern.

Charging was at first confusing because the Mitsubishi i-MiEV has ports on
both sides of the car. One side is for the more traditional charging offered
at a home through either your standard household outlet or a more powerful
home charging station. The other is for high-speed charging.

The standard outlet will bring the car to full charge in 14 hours, but you
would have to be way down in juice to need that long. A Level 2 charging
station will get the job done in 7 hours. A high-speed charger can bring the
i-MiEV up to 80 percent charge in less than 30 minutes.

Once on the road, the Mitsubishi i-MiEV drives pleasantly enough. It has
three drive modes. D provides the highest performance. Eco gets you the most
bang for your charge while B helps you recharge your batteries through
regenerative braking. B is best used when you are braking frequently. On the
highway, you need to be in D to stand any chance of changing lanes. The 0-60
time for the Mitsubishi i-MiEV is in the 13-15 second range.

As mentioned, the interior of the Mitsubishi i-MiEV leaves a lot to be
desired but is not without some redeeming touches. The diamond patterned
seats are nice looking and the center stack is easy to use. The HVAC vents
and door handles are well designed.

One flaw is the instrument gauges. Too much space is devoted to a faux fuel
gauge that shows remaining charge. Because the miles-left gauge is what
people are going to rely on, it should be more prominent.

The model we drove had the optional navigation package for $2,000. It
includes a seven-inch screen and navigation package, 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[dovepa via EV]

I leave the charger in the vehicle and run the extension cord out the window.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Chris Tromley via EV  Date: 10/19/2015  6:32 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Robert Bruninga , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An 
Electric Car: Why Charging Rate,
  DC Quick-Charging Matter 
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:44 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> It is unsustainable to expect that people without EV charging at home or
> at work (both can be 115 volt) will be happy to leave their cars for hours
> every day somewhewre else every single day.  Or that there will ever be
> enough such public chargers.
>
> No, the only practical answer remains (for the dail commuter), to provide
> provisions for people to plug in while parked at home.  Even if this means
> on-street parking having outlets.
>

​I'm getting more used to the idea of L1 charging being pretty useful, but
I have one remaining objection to it - L1 chargers.  Currently, using L1
charging means carrying your OEM EVSE with you and plugging it in.  You
can't always expect to have an outlet right at your parking spot, so you
also need an extension cord.  That's a significant inconvenience.  I
wouldn't mind it so much, but that could be enough for John Q. Public to
say, "What a pain.  I'm getting a gas car."

Not only that, but you're plugging in your OEM EVSE​

​and leaving it where anyone can walk away with it.  At ~$300​ a pop,
that's a significant risk.  I will likely end up with L1 charging where I
work, but with my i-MiEV's rear-fender charging port I can run an extension
cord to the outlet, leave my EVSE in the trunk, plug the charging head into
the port and lock my trunk using a latch extender (that I'll have to make)
to leave a gap for the cords.  I don't know if I'd charge in a public place
if I couldn't do that.

The longer-term solution is probably permanently-installed L1 charger cords
with the charging head attached.  Fixes both the convenience and theft
problems, but costs $200 instead of $5.
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Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050

[dovepa via EV]

Fuel cells still burn fossil fuels. Hydrogen is made from natural gas 
currently. Oil companies are just trying to stay in the market IMO


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Ben Goren via EV  Date: 10/16/2015  10:45 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: EVDL Administrator , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT: Toyota aims to 
nearly eliminate gasoline cars by 2050 
On Oct 16, 2015, at 8:35 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
wrote:

> Compared to EVs, they were noisy, stinky, and
> unreliable.  The fuel was hard to get, and dangerous to store.

But there're a lot of big differences today. For one, the whole field of 
vehicles was brand-new -- as was the electric grid. For another, oil was 
literally dirt cheap; be careless with a pickaxe in Texas and you'd set off a 
gusher. The big one was the energy density of batteries...we just now, well 
over a century later, have batteries that are _barely_ up to the task of being 
built into competitive vehicles, even as the density of gasoline still stomps 
all over batteries. Back in the day, with lead acid and iron-nickel the 
bleeding edge of technology, there's just no way that you could even have 
pretended to have made intercity trips or plowed a field or the like with 
batteries -- but, even then, that was trivial with gasoline.

Today, you can buy a new electric vehicle at some of your local dealers. You 
can charge it at home for, with rounding, free. Huge numbers of people do so, 
and the most-talked-about cars these days, from Tesla, are all electric.

Are there even any fool cell vehicles for sale anywhere in the States? I'm sure 
there aren't any H2 stations anywhere near me -- maybe not even within range of 
the vehicle. What's the cost of H2 at the pump in those nonexistent places you 
can't get it? Are there any fool cell vehicles as cheap and as nice as my 
parents's $14K 2013 Leaf? Are there any as sexy as a Tesla? Who's racing fool 
cells -- where's the NEDRA equivalent, an Eva in her fastest-sidecar-on-Earth, 
or a Formula E? Stop people on the street; all will have heard of Tesla and 
will know about EVs...but how many are even aware that Toyota has plans to sell 
cars that run on hydrogen?

It's stil early enough in the game that a concerted effort could submarine EVs 
in favor of fool cells...but that window is closing fast, and is already almost 
closed. Indeed, VW may have just slammed it shut.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins

[dovepa via EV]

I drive an i-MiEV


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: damon henry via EV  Date: 10/12/2015  1:42 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: EV List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric 
Lawn Mower - Elec wins 
Good point :)  What are you driving to work? I put over 1000 miles on my 
motorcycle this summer at a penny a mile.  That is much more cost effective 
than the ICE SUV I drove in today.
damon

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:04:30 +
From: dov...@bellsouth.net
To: damonhe...@hotmail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins

No, they don't care about that either since it cost me 40 cents a day to go to 
work and it costs my wife 5 or 6 bucks depending on the price of gas. 

It's just new technology and most people are afraid of change. However, it will 
eventually be realized by all.

    From: damon henry via EV 
 To: EV List  
 Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 12:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
   
Yes, but no one cares about kw of energy in gasoline.  They care about how many 
gallons or liters they need and how much it costs.  This is like saying that 
the gasoline weighs more than  electricity.  Most people see it as totally 
irrelevant. damonTo: e...@lists.evdl.orgDate: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:19:17 
-0700Subject: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec winsFrom: 
e...@lists.evdl.orgi don’t know how many of you look at Robert Llewellyn's 
Fully 
Charged
  videos, but here is one that you shouldn’t miss - 
https://www.facebook.com/FullyChargedShow/videos/867139510038966/ It is just 
phenomenal. Basically the guy takes 2 mowers, elec and gas, measuresthe 
equivalent kw of energy of the battery pack and puts it into the gas mowerand 
runs them. The results blew me away. The petrol (Robert is English) lastsabout 
7 ½ minutes, the elec lasts 50 min and 26 secs… efficiency counts. I hope that 
somebody has the guts to do this with an electric vehicle andgas/diesel 
vehicle… Rush Doughertywww.TucsonEV.com    
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-S Owners Dropped Ca$h Like Never Before

[dovepa via EV]

I see it as no different than any new technology their are always early 
adopters that will pay any price to have it. Be it cell phones, plasma tvs, 
teslas. etc.
I recall when plasma tvs were $15,000.




Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 9/7/2015  2:13 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla-S Owners Dropped 
Ca$h Like Never Before 


http://gas2.org/2015/08/31/tesla-model-s-owners-dropped-cash-on-their-cars-like-never-before/
Tesla Model S Owners Dropped Cash On Their Cars Like Never Before
August 31st, 2015  by Zachary Shahan

[image  
http://evobsession.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Tesla-Model-S-Brown-Amsterdam.jpg
Tesla Model S Brown Amsterdam
] 

Following every post in the Tesla Motors Club forum, there’s a lot of stuff
that simply isn’t interesting (as is the case with any product forum). But
it’s well worth it for all of the interesting gems I find there (and as a
potential future Tesla owner and a current Tesla investor). One of the
recent finds I found super interesting was a thread [
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/52315-New-Owners-What-was-your-last-car-How-much-more-was-the-MS-than-that-car
] about the cars Tesla owners upgraded from, and how much more or less they
paid compared to their previous car. If it is representative, it shows that
Tesla owners, for the most part, massively upgraded when they switched to
Tesla.

Of the ~100 responses there right now, I only spotted one where the person
had spent more money on their previous car. A ton of the responses show
people spending $30,000 to $80,000+ more on their Tesla (or first Tesla)
than on their previous car. That’s pretty shocking.

One thing that tells me is that people see Tesla’s cars as far superior to
any other cars out there, and so good that they are willing to spend tens of
thousands of dollars more than they ever expected to spend on a car. It
reflects why Consumer Reports recently called the Model S P85D [
http://gas2.org/2015/08/27/tesla-p85d-scores-103100-on-consumer-reports-rating-system-breaks-another-system/
] “an automotive milepost…that paves a new, unorthodox course.” (Note that
the P85D “broke” the Consumer Reports rating system by scoring 103 points
when the maximum should be 100.)

And, actually, it just hit me that this willingness to spend tens of
thousands more on a car than ever expected before applies to me as well.
I’ve typically not cared for cars or expensive cars (since I was a teenager,
at least), and if you asked me a few years ago if I’d ever spend $70,000+ on
a car, I’d surely say, “Hell no!” I’ve happily lived car-free for 11+ years.
But as I consider which car to get in the coming year (to survive living in
Florida with a baby), the Tesla Model S is possibly at the top of my list.
Of course, I’m only considering electrics, and I do love other electrics on
the market as well, but nothing compares to the Model S (except for the
Model X [
http://evobsession.com/tag/tesla-model-x/
], of course). It’s just the “logical” side of my brain that is having
trouble with the idea. But even the logical side has strong arguments —
safest car ever tested, long range, and free Supercharging across the US.

Anyway, though, getting back to the thread and its implications, I think
this thread also shows how compelling electric driving is, how far ahead
Tesla is, and how massively Tesla’s Model 3 [
http://evobsession.com/tag/tesla-model-3/
] could disrupt the market.
[© gas2.org]




For EVLN posts use:
http://evdl.org/evln/

http://fortune.com/2015/09/01/oprah-buys-a-tesla/
The latest Tesla customer: Oprah
2015/09/01  Winfery's rave review of the electric car come less than a week
after Consumer Report's gave a high-end version of the Model S car its
highest review ever.
http://www.torquenews.com/3618/which-celebrity-bought-tesla-ev

http://gas2.org/2015/08/28/5000-uk-plug-in-car-grant-extended/
£5,000 UK Plug-In Car Grant Extended

http://www.scpr.org/news/2015/08/25/53987/electric-car-chargers-move-from-parking-lots-to-cu/
16 curbside EVSE added @Burkbank-CA
+
EVLN: Peugeot's angry looking Fractal 'urban coupe' concept EV r:280mi


{brucedp.150m.com}



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: First ever Nissan Leaf EV fire> no solid info (v)

[dovepa via EV]

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/feds-probe-2013-nissan-leaf-fire-traced-to-charger.html
Not really. ... where theirs smokethere's fire
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: brucedp5 via EV  Date: 9/4/2015  2:27 AM  
(GMT-06:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: First ever Nissan Leaf 
EV fire> no solid info (v) 


http://www.examiner.com/article/first-ever-nissan-leaf-car-fire-a-puzzle-no-solid-information-known
First ever Nissan Leaf car fire a puzzle, no solid information known
David Herron  September 3, 2015

[video / Adam Menge on YouTube, used under normal YouTube license
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PUG-ldjD48
The first-ever Nissan Leaf fire has occurred in North Texas, with no
information available about the fire
Nissan LEAF Fire 
Adam Menge  Sep 2, 2015
Nissan LEAF on fire in North Texas 1 SEP 2015


image  
http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/17/29/17291b7c30e7c36664b59e46c13baaea.jpg
In the first-ever Nissan Leaf car fire, almost nothing is known other than 9
seconds of video
]

On Wednesday a video was posted to YouTube showing a Nissan Leaf [EV] fully
engulfed in fire. The video description claims it was taken in "North
Texas". Over on the My Nissan Leaf [
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=15=20476
] forum a discussion says that someone's bosses wife posted the video, she
didn't know who's car was on fire, or anything else. Even though gasoline
car fires are extremely common (200,000+ per year in the U.S. alone),
electric car fires are extremely rare and there has never been a Nissan Leaf
catch on fire.

There isn't much we can discern from the video other than the passenger
compartment is fully engulfed, and it's possible that the battery pack was
not on fire [
http://longtailpipe.com/2015/09/03/nissan-leaf-catches-fire-in-north-texas-no-clear-information-available/
]. A battery pack fire on the Leaf should have more fire in the
undercarriage than is shown here. It's possible this is a case of arson, or
a cigarette fire, and may have solely involved the passenger compartment. At
this time no news reports are available, and the discussion on the My Nissan
Leaf forum doesn't contain any solid information.

Normally car fires don't get much attention in the press, but because
electric car fires are rare each one has gotten an inordinate amount of
attention. 

Back in 2011 a Chevy Volt [pih] caught fire following crash testing. That
fire received a huge amount of politically motivated hyped up attention,
primarily from Republicans hoping to make Pres. Obama look bad. The NHTSA
report [
http://longtailpipe.com/2012/01/24/chevy-volt-fire-what-did-nhtsa-know-and/
] said that fire was caused when the crash test caused a battery pack
puncture that eventually caused a short circuit. GM developed a fix
involving some changes to the battery pack, and no further Volt fires have
occurred despite some having been involved in truly severe accidents.

In 2013 a series of Tesla Model S [EV] fires occurred when road debris
punctured the battery pack, causing a short circuit, and an immediate fire.
Tesla's engineers quickly developed a fix involving a titanium shield
mounted underneath the battery pack, and the situation quickly resolved
itself. These were the only electric cars to catch fire "in the wild" unlike
the aforementioned Volt fire that occurred in artificial testing conditions.

Last year a fellow posted a video on YouTube where he destructively tested
some battery cells from a Nissan Leaf pack [
http://longtailpipe.com/video/do-nissan-leaf-battery-cells-blow-up-from-puncture-fire-nope/
]. The video shows a puncture test, and the cell only emits a puff of smoke.
In other test he aimed a propane torch at the cell, and even though the
pouch caught fire the cell itself did not do so. In both cases the battery
cells still produced voltage after the test. That sort of testing implies
the Nissan Leaf pack is very safe and unlikely to catch fire.

Given the hype over the Chevy Volt fire back in 2011 it's possible that this
Leaf fire will blow up in a similar way. At this point we don't have enough
information about the fire, whether it was the battery pack, whether anyone
was hurt, or whether it was an intentional fire (arson).
[© examiner.com  2015 AXS Digital Group]
...
https://www.google.com/search?q=2013+Tesla+Model+S+fires
Web search  2013 Tesla Model S fires  , (images)
https://www.google.com/search?q=2013+Tesla+Model+S+fires=isch



http://www.torquenews.com/3618/nissan-leaf-cought-on-fire
Video Shows Nissan LEAF Engulfed in Flame, Details Unknown
By Douglas Stansfield  2015-09-03

Based on all the fire hysteria from a few years ago regarding electric
vehicle car fires, it is with sadness that I report a Nissan LEAF was caught
on fire in Texas on September 1st.

During the aforementioned hysteria, the Chevy Volt, and the Tesla S all were
caught up in the original