Re: Simulated Brains

On 07.08.2011 05:12 Craig Weinberg said the following: On Aug 6, 9:35 pm, meekerdb wrote: On 8/6/2011 4:59 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The language doesn't matter. You can see that a person is in pain by their response to being burned, even if they have not developed language yet. Interesting

Re: bruno list

On 07.08.2011 01:24 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:54 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Let us forget for a moment machines and take for example some other biological creatures, for example even insects. How would you characterize the behaviour of insects? Is it intell

Re: Simulated Brains

On Aug 6, 9:35 pm, meekerdb wrote: > On 8/6/2011 4:59 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > The language doesn't matter. You can see that a person is in pain by > > their response to being burned, even if they have not developed > > language yet. > > Interesting.  Now Craig *can* infer qualia from behav

Re: Simulated Brains

On 8/6/2011 4:59 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: The language doesn't matter. You can see that a person is in pain by their response to being burned, even if they have not developed language yet. Interesting. Now Craig *can* infer qualia from behavior. Brent -- You received this message because yo

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 7:40 pm, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > When you are online you don't analyse the biochemical make-up of you > interlocutor, but you still come to a conclusion as to whether they > are intelligent or not. If in doubt you can always ask a series of > questions: I'm sure you are confident i

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 4:40 pm, meekerdb wrote: > On 8/6/2011 12:23 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > You wouldn't feel, but neither would something in your shape feel if > > it were composed of ping pong balls. The fundamental unit has to be > > something with the potential to build it's existing nature into > >

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 4:37 pm, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > I do not think that the immune system cogitates, nor I believe that it > is conscious. Right. It has awareness, not necessarily self awareness, which is what I think consciousness is. The ability of a nervous system to abstract the sense it makes throug

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 4:20 pm, John Mikes wrote: > Craig, > Brent decries: >  * ">That's the crux of the argument.  Do you suppose that if I were > **> decomposed in my constituent atoms I would still feel? " <* > Whereupon you answer professionally. Not with the question "What is > "FEEL"???" Not sure I get

Re: Simulated Brains

On Aug 6, 4:00 pm, "Stephen P. King" wrote: > Hi Craig and Bruno, . > > But it's not intersubjective if we don't agree. You need to understand > > math in the exact way that it is intended in order to agree. Certainly > > as math becomes more complex, it can become less objective than simple > > l

Re: bruno list

On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 1:35 AM, John Mikes wrote: > Stasthis, > let me barge in with one fundamental - not dispersing my reply into those > (many and long) details: > As I read your comments/replies (and I agree with your position within the > limits I want to expose here), I have the feeling that

Re: bruno list

On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:56 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > On Aug 6, 11:26 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > >> Why do you assume that people you interact with online, such as me, >> aren't just random glitches in the Internet? > > Because I have no reason to suspect that they aren't people. On my >

Re: bruno list

On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 2:54 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > Let us forget for a moment machines and take for example some other > biological creatures, for example even insects. How would you characterize > the behaviour of insects? Is it intelligent or not? Yes, I would say that insects have a limi

Re: bruno list

On 8/6/2011 1:25 PM, John Mikes wrote: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 2:30 PM, meekerdb > wrote: On 8/6/2011 8:35 AM, John Mikes wrote: Stasthis, let me barge in with one fundamental - not dispersing my reply into those (many and long) detail

Re: COMP refutation paper - finally out

Frankly I am a bit tired of this debate (to some extent debating in general), so I will not respond in detail any time soon (if at all). Don't take it as total disinterest, I found our exchange very interesting, I am just not in the mood at the moment to discuss complex topics at length. Bruno M

Re: bruno list

On 8/6/2011 12:23 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Aug 6, 2:20 pm, meekerdb wrote: On 8/6/2011 6:03 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 2. Consciousness isn't a special logical design that turns inanimate objects and circuits into something that can feel. Matter feels already - or detects/reacts.

Re: bruno list

On 06.08.2011 20:10 meekerdb said the following: On 8/6/2011 3:48 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 06.08.2011 12:27 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: ... Consciousness isn't provided. It's not a service. It's like saying that mass is

Re: bruno list

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 2:30 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 8/6/2011 8:35 AM, John Mikes wrote: > >> Stasthis, >> >> let me barge in with one fundamental - not dispersing my reply into those >> (many and long) details: >> >> As I read your comments/replies (and I agree with your position within the >> l

Re: bruno list

Craig, Brent decries: * ">That's the crux of the argument. Do you suppose that if I were **> decomposed in my constituent atoms I would still feel? " <* Whereupon you answer professionally. Not with the question "What is "FEEL"???" Nor with the retribution that "we" are not composed of 'atoms' ON

Re: Simulated Brains

Hi Craig and Bruno, I think you two are 'talking past each other' in that you are thinking of completely different things in your comments. On 8/6/2011 2:12 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Aug 6, 12:46 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Aug 2011, at 13:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: If we 'need t

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 2:23 pm, meekerdb wrote: > On 8/6/2011 6:30 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > Exactly! It's up to us whether we determine behaviors to be isomorphic > > enough to our own intelligence to infer that it too experiences > > similar intelligence. That determination doesn't create intelligence

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 2:20 pm, meekerdb wrote: > On 8/6/2011 6:03 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > 2. Consciousness isn't a special logical design that turns inanimate > > objects and circuits into something that can feel. Matter feels > > already - or detects/reacts. Consciousness is just the same principle >

Re: bruno list

On 8/6/2011 8:35 AM, John Mikes wrote: Stasthis, let me barge in with one fundamental - not dispersing my reply into those (many and long) details: As I read your comments/replies (and I agree with your position within the limits I want to expose here), I have the feeling that you agree wit

Re: bruno list

On 8/6/2011 6:30 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: Exactly! It's up to us whether we determine behaviors to be isomorphic enough to our own intelligence to infer that it too experiences similar intelligence. That determination doesn't create intelligence in the object nor remove it. That's why the whole

Re: bruno list

On 8/6/2011 6:03 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: 2. Consciousness isn't a special logical design that turns inanimate objects and circuits into something that can feel. Matter feels already - or detects/reacts. Consciousness is just the same principle run through multiple organic elaborations so that i

Re: Simulated Brains

On Aug 6, 12:46 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 06 Aug 2011, at 13:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > If we 'need to agree on elementary principles' doesn't that mean it's > > intersubjective? > > If we agree on principles, it means it is intersubjective, but this > does not mean it is necessarily not ob

Re: bruno list

On 8/6/2011 3:48 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 06.08.2011 12:27 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: ... Consciousness isn't provided. It's not a service. It's like saying that mass is being provided to an object. My position is th

Re: COMP refutation paper - finally out

On 8/6/2011 12:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Aug 2011, at 07:04, meekerdb wrote: On 8/5/2011 9:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Comp already shows that it take the form of an uncertainty calculus on computations. From comp it is easy to derive indeterminacy/uncertainty, non locality, non cl

Re: bruno list

Hi John, On 06 Aug 2011, at 17:35, John Mikes wrote: Stasthis, let me barge in with one fundamental - not dispersing my reply into those (many and long) details: As I read your comments/replies (and I agree with your position within the limits I want to expose here), I have the feeling t

Re: Simulated Brains

On Aug 6, 11:38 am, John Mikes wrote: > Dear Steohen and Craig: > I would apply my response to Stathis to your 'simulation': you can simulate > whatever you )already) know about the substrate. Our knowledge is sporadic > and skewed - fitted to the so far absorbed and adjusted knowledge we > assu

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 11:26 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > Why do you assume that people you interact with online, such as me, > aren't just random glitches in the Internet? Because I have no reason to suspect that they aren't people. On my blog I get spammed with fake users several times a week and I do

Re: bruno list

On 06.08.2011 16:15 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: How do you define intelligent behaviour? For example in the book Dario Floreano and Claudio Mattiussi, Bio-Inspired Artificial Intelligence: Theories, Methods, and Technologies, 20

Re: Simulated Brains

On 06 Aug 2011, at 13:42, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Aug 6, 6:16 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Aug 2011, at 20:26, Craig Weinberg wrote: That is my point exactly: inter-subjective agreement is as close to objectivity that we can get. Of course this is debatable. I would say that elemen

Re: Simulated Brains

Dear Steohen and Craig: I would apply my response to Stathis to your 'simulation': you can simulate whatever you )already) know about the substrate. Our knowledge is sporadic and skewed - fitted to the so far absorbed and adjusted knowledge we assumed, so we can 'simulate' incompletely. Best regard

Re: bruno list

Stasthis, let me barge in with one fundamental - not dispersing my reply into those (many and long) details: As I read your comments/replies (and I agree with your position within the limits I want to expose here), I have the feeling that you agree with the rest of the combatants in considering '

Re: bruno list

On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > On Aug 6, 10:15 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: >> > How do you define intelligent behaviour? For example in the book >> >> > Dario Floreano and Claudio Mattiussi, Bio-Inspired Artifi

Re: bruno list

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> My position is that consciousness occurs necessarily if the sort of >> activity that leads to intelligent behaviour occurs. > > Consciousness is the same thing as that which 'leads to intelligent > behavior' for the subjective perspective

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 10:15 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > > How do you define intelligent behaviour? For example in the book > > Dario Floreano and Claudio Mattiussi, Bio-Inspired Artificial Intelligence: > > Theories, Methods, and Technologies, 20

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 10:15 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > > How do you define intelligent behaviour? For example in the book > > > Dario Floreano and Claudio Mattiussi, Bio-Inspired Artificial Intelligence: > > Theories, Methods, and Technologies, 20

Re: bruno list

On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 8:48 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > How do you define intelligent behaviour? For example in the book > > Dario Floreano and Claudio Mattiussi, Bio-Inspired Artificial Intelligence: > Theories, Methods, and Technologies, 2008 > > there is a nice chapter about immune systems. I

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 6:48 am, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: > On 06.08.2011 12:27 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: > > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Craig > > Weinberg  wrote: > > ... > > >> Consciousness isn't provided. It's not a service. It's like saying > >> that mass is being provided to an object.

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 6:35 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > Here, please try thinking of it this way. Substitute the word > > 'conscious' for the word 'expensive'. > > > If I paid a lot of money for something, it is expensive to me. That is > > not d

Re: bruno list

On Aug 6, 6:27 am, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > >> But the part of your brain that is doing the doubting, which might be > >> normal, > > > If the part of your brain doing the doubting is 'normal' enough for > > you to experience doubt, the

Re: Simulated Brains

On Aug 6, 6:16 am, Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 05 Aug 2011, at 20:26, Craig Weinberg wrote: > >>> That is my point exactly: inter-subjective agreement is as close to > >>> objectivity that we can get. > > >> Of course this is debatable. I would say that elementary arithmetic   > >> is > >> objectiv

Re: bruno list

On 06.08.2011 12:27 Stathis Papaioannou said the following: On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: ... Consciousness isn't provided. It's not a service. It's like saying that mass is being provided to an object. My position is that consciousness occurs necessarily if the s

Re: bruno list

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 12:28 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > Here, please try thinking of it this way. Substitute the word > 'conscious' for the word 'expensive'. > > If I paid a lot of money for something, it is expensive to me. That is > not debatable, it's the definition of expensive. If I see som

Re: bruno list

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:52 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> But the part of your brain that is doing the doubting, which might be >> normal, > > If the part of your brain doing the doubting is 'normal' enough for > you to experience doubt, then you are conscious to that extent. It's > very straight

Re: Simulated Brains

On 05 Aug 2011, at 20:26, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Aug 5, 1:00 pm, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Aug 2011, at 01:37, Craig Weinberg wrote: That is my point exactly: inter-subjective agreement is as close to objectivity that we can get. Of course this is debatable. I would say that elementary

Re: COMP refutation paper - finally out

On 06 Aug 2011, at 07:04, meekerdb wrote: On 8/5/2011 9:42 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Comp already shows that it take the form of an uncertainty calculus on computations. From comp it is easy to derive indeterminacy/ uncertainty, non locality, non clonability of the apparent primitive matt

Re: Why quasi-classicality?

On 05 Aug 2011, at 20:38, meekerdb wrote: On 8/5/2011 9:56 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Aug 2011, at 02:40, meekerdb wrote: The Born rule and testable predictions. As Omnes says, "Quantum mechanics is a probabilistic theory, so naturally it predicts probabilities." See for example: