Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 21 May 2019, at 15:46, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 8:58 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > (Isn't Hofstadter a joke?) > > Hofstadter wrote the single best book I ever read in my life, "Gödel, Escher, > Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid". > >

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 21 May 2019, at 15:15, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 9:02 PM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > In science, we don’t claim truth, especially on the fundamental reality. We > only try theories, like plausibly Nature itself, through selection,

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 21 May 2019, at 14:58, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, May 21, 2019 at 6:06:19 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 20 May 2019, at 10:32, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> But I claim that no zillion-processor Intel Core computer (that ultimately >> runs programs

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 8:58 AM Philip Thrift wrote: > > *(Isn't Hofstadter a joke?)* > Hofstadter wrote the single best book I ever read in my life, "Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid". > > ” His [Dennett's] position was summarized in an interview in The New > York Times: “The

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 9:02 PM Bruno Marchal wrote: > > In science, we don’t claim truth, especially on the fundamental reality. > We only try theories, like plausibly Nature itself, through selection, > mutation, etc. > A good sound instrumentalist position. Instrumentalism is often

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Tuesday, May 21, 2019 at 6:06:19 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 20 May 2019, at 10:32, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > But I claim that no zillion-processor Intel Core computer (that ultimately > runs programs compiled to Intel machine code) can be conscious. I also > claim God

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 20 May 2019, at 19:31, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:03:12 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 18 May 2019, at 00:33, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> Isn't qualia can be reduced to information processing the unsupported >> assertion? >> >> The

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 20 May 2019, at 10:32, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 6:50:48 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 1:21 PM Philip Thrift

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 19 May 2019, at 22:39, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 1:21 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 5/19/2019 12:19 AM, Philip Thrift

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 19 May 2019, at 17:13, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/19/2019 12:19 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 1:50:03 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 5/18/2019 11:25 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> No I can't prove we aren't

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 19 May 2019, at 03:34, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/18/2019 12:55 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 5/18/2019 6:37 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> A simulated human brain could describe

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 6:19:54 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 2:01 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >> *> If a program (multi-core x86 code) running on a zillion-processor >> Intel Core computer can be conscious, then the proposition of "Chinese >> room" is wrong.*

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 5:45:55 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:40 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >> >> On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 4:10:12 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, May 20, 2019, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> On Monday, May 20, 2019

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 2:01 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > *> If a program (multi-core x86 code) running on a zillion-processor Intel > Core computer can be conscious, then the proposition of "Chinese room" is > wrong.* > You want to prove that only wet squishy things can be conscious. You ask

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/20/2019 3:45 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:40 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 4:10:12 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: On Monday, May 20, 2019, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, May 20, 2019 at

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:40 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 4:10:12 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, May 20, 2019, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>>

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 4:53:20 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/20/2019 10:46 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > All examples of consciousness we have exist in living objects. (Us, > > for example.) > > > > Can something be a conscious object but not a living object? > > So you're going to

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/20/2019 10:46 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: All examples of consciousness we have exist in living objects. (Us, for example.) Can something be a conscious object but not a living object? So you're going to appeal to the elan' vital as necessary to consciousness? Brent -- You received

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 4:10:12 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Monday, May 20, 2019, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjCytqku18M >> > >>> >>> >> >> That was interesting.

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 1:22 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 12:46:13 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjCytqku18M >> > >>> >>> >> >> That was

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjCytqku18M > >> >> > > That was interesting. Data has consciousness or doesn't. It's like being > pregnant. > > So what would you

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 12:46:13 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjCytqku18M > >> >> > > That was interesting. Data has consciousness or doesn't. It's like being >

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 11:55:40 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:32 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >*The Chinese room argument holds that an executing program cannot* [blah >> blah] > > > Philip, I'd really like to know why you think the Chinese room argument is >

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:39:20 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjCytqku18M >>> > > That was interesting. Data has consciousness or doesn't. It's like being pregnant. > > > > >> >> There are several alternatives to our biochemistry, of course [

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 10:03:12 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 18 May 2019, at 00:33, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > Isn't *qualia can be reduced to information processing* the unsupported > assertion? > > The burden of proof is on those who claim qualia comes out of information

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:32 AM Philip Thrift wrote: >*The Chinese room argument holds that an executing program cannot* [blah > blah] Philip, I'd really like to know why you think the Chinese room argument is not imbecilic. I'm also curious why you cut and pasted all that stuff about silicon

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> > >>> >>> > We do know that some synthetic-biological objects (SBOs) exist that are > conscious: Us. > > Except here the material synthesis was accomplished via natural selection, > not bay a team of scientists and engineers. > Do you think if a team of engineers in a lab built a human from

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 18 May 2019, at 08:11, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 18 May 2019, at 00:33, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

> On 18 May 2019, at 00:21, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift > > wrote: >> >> > Information

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 6:50:48 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 1:21 PM Philip Thrift >>> wrote: >>> On Sunday, May

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/19/2019 1:39 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: So it seems reasonable, from both a scientific and engineering stance, that a synthetic intelligence approach - one that combines synthetic-biological assembly with AI information processing to produce outputs that are actually living things - is

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sunday, May 19, 2019, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 1:21 PM Philip Thrift wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/19/2019 12:19 AM,

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 2:40:04 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 1:21 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/19/2019 12:19 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 1:21 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/19/2019 12:19 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 1:50:03 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/18/2019 11:25 PM, Philip Thrift

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/19/2019 12:19 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 1:50:03 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/18/2019 11:25 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> No I can't *prove *we aren't simulations, or that a

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 11:08 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> I am well aware that there are huge sections of DNA that just repeat the >> same thing for hundreds or even thousands of times, but I don't see the >> relevance because if they just repeat the same

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/19/2019 1:21 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: If a smart missile were conscious, It would be committing suicide. Like a kamikaze. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/19/2019 12:19 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 1:50:03 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/18/2019 11:25 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: No I can't *prove *we aren't simulations, or that a simulation running in a big computer made of Intel Cores can't be conscious.

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 2:19:31 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 1:50:03 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/18/2019 11:25 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> No I can't *prove *we aren't simulations, or that a simulation running >> in a big computer made

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 1:50:03 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/18/2019 11:25 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > No I can't *prove *we aren't simulations, or that a simulation running in > a big computer made of Intel Cores can't be conscious. > > > Nor can you give a reply to Chalmer's

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/18/2019 11:25 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 7:51:45 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/18/2019 12:19 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:47:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 7:51:45 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/18/2019 12:19 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:47:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5,

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/18/2019 5:28 PM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 7:54 PM 'Brent Meeker> wrote: >>Evolution is unlikely to have stumbled upon a complex method of achieving intelligence if there was a much simpler basic procedure

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/18/2019 3:10 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: It's not erring, so much as I think it's completely *unuseful* (of no practical value, unhelpful). The contrary, which you advocate, is essentially to assume that however intelligent and human-like you make a robot, it has no feelings.  This

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/18/2019 12:55 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/18/2019 6:37 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: /A simulated human brain could describe it's back pain in every detail, write whole paragraphs about what it's like, while

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/18/2019 12:19 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:47:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 7:54 PM 'Brent Meeker < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>Evolution is unlikely to have stumbled upon a complex method of achieving >> intelligence if there was a much simpler basic procedure to do the same >> thing > > > *> You must not have looked at how DNA is

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 6:19 PM Philip Thrift wrote: >> It's weird, perhaps it comes from watching too much Star Trek but I >> don't understand why so many people believe it's inherently more difficult >> to produce emotion than intelligence when Evolution found the exact >> opposite to be true.

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/18/2019 9:32 AM, John Clark wrote: /Or maybe it has a function in the way human intelligence is implemented, but it wouldn't have a function is some other implementation./ Evolution is unlikely to have stumbled upon a complex method of achieving intelligence if there was a

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 11:44:33 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 9:37 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *A simulated human brain could read the Wikipedia article on pain [ >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain ] >> and

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 4:09:51 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 2:56 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >> >> On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/18/2019 6:37 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> *A simulated human brain could

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

Clark To: everything-list Sent: Sat, May 18, 2019 12:44 pm Subject: Re: Is your elbow conscious? On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 9:37 AM Philip Thrift wrote: A simulated human brain could read the Wikipedia article on pain [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain ] and integrate this knowledge

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 2:56 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/18/2019 6:37 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> *A simulated human brain could describe it's back pain in every detail, >> write whole paragraphs about what it's

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 2:39:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/18/2019 6:37 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > *A simulated human brain could describe it's back pain in every detail, > write whole paragraphs about what it's like, while according to the theory > of substrate dependence, it

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/18/2019 6:37 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: /A simulated human brain could describe it's back pain in every detail, write whole paragraphs about what it's like, while according to the theory of substrate dependence, it knows nothing of what it's writing about. Where then does this knowledge

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:47:15 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5,

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 9:37 AM Philip Thrift wrote: *A simulated human brain could read the Wikipedia article on pain [ > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain ] > and integrate this knowledge into its knowledge base, but it could not > experience pain.* It's

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 7:12 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> Even if we got super mega ultra lucky and Evolution just happened to >> produce a mutated gene that gave a being consciousness it would be lost in >> just a few generations due to genetic drift because

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/17/2019 11:11 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Saturday, May 18, 2019, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 8:00:42 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> On Saturday, May 18, 2019, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 8:00:42 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Saturday, May 18, 2019, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Saturday, May 18, 2019, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:09:18 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/17/2019 3:38 PM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 6:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' > wrote: On 5/17/2019 4:56 AM, John Clark wrote: >> If you somehow knew for a fact a brilliant being was a zombie then you could immediately

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/17/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 6:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: On 5/17/2019 4:56 AM, John Clark wrote: > >> >> If you somehow knew for a fact a brilliant being was a zombie then >> you could immediately make one conclusion about it, the being could NOT be >> the product

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:21:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> *> Information processing absent actual

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 5:06:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 4:56 AM, John Clark wrote: > > If you somehow knew for a fact a brilliant being was a zombie then you > could immediately make one conclusion about it, the being could NOT be the > product of Darwinian Evolution

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: /> Information processing absent actual first-class entities of *qualia* (or experiences) can only

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/17/2019 4:56 AM, John Clark wrote: If you somehow knew for a fact a brilliant being was a zombie then you could immediately make one conclusion about it, the being could NOT be the product of Darwinian Evolution because Natural Selection can see intelligence but it can't see

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:20 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > > > On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 1:51:15 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/16/2019 11:59 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 1:42:41 AM UTC-5, telmo wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> But then "panpyschism" does no work.

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/16/2019 11:59 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 1:42:41 AM UTC-5, telmo wrote: But then "panpyschism" does no work.  It's just a hypothetical property of matter that says if some matter does information processing then that matter is conscious,

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 6:57:35 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 2:51 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > >> *> But what is information processing?* >> > > It is the process of extracting information from data, and information is > the resolution of uncertainty. And

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 2:51 AM Philip Thrift wrote: > *> But what is information processing?* > It is the process of extracting information from data, and information is the resolution of uncertainty. And my unproven assumption (which will never be proven but is the only thing that prevents

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:17:59 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > if you think exhibiting reflexes is the critereon for consciousness, > consider the example of someone who has held their breath for fifteen > minutes. > > Brent > > A reflex (say in an elbow) might be considered an example of

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Friday, May 17, 2019 at 1:42:41 AM UTC-5, telmo wrote: > > > > But then "panpyschism" does no work. It's just a hypothetical property of > matter that says if some matter does information processing then that > matter is conscious, otherwise it's not. But that's already what >

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> Information processing absent actual first-class entities of qualia (or >> experiences) can only produce zombies. One needs information processing >> operating

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Thu, May 16, 2019, at 17:07, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: > > > On 5/16/2019 6:29 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> You still need to explain why your elbow isn't conscious. >>> >>> Brent >> >> >> >> The elbow (the matter that is halfway down your arm between your shoulder >>

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift wrote: *> Information processing absent actual first-class entities of qualia (or > experiences) can only produce zombies. One needs information processing > operating in a material substrate where those entities are available to be > combined and

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 11:07:35 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/16/2019 6:29 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > You still need to explain why your elbow isn't conscious. >> >> Brent >> > > > > The elbow (the matter that is halfway down your arm between your shoulder > and hand) could have

Re: Is your elbow conscious?

On 5/16/2019 6:29 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: You still need to explain why your elbow isn't conscious. Brent The elbow (the matter that is halfway down your arm between your shoulder and hand) could have proto-consciousness (or a proto-experientiality, as some say):