Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 25 Oct 2012, at 21:17, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:33:58 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > Accumulating wealth is hardly an achievement of human progress. Wealth and human progress are strongly linked and on

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:33:58 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> > Accumulating wealth is hardly an achievement of human progress. >> > > Wealth and human progress are strongly linked and only in very rich > western cu

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 6:20 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > Accumulating wealth is hardly an achievement of human progress. > Wealth and human progress are strongly linked and only in very rich western cultures can anybody afford to say that material things are not important, and even then it's c

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 1:48:14 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > >> >> >> >>> What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? >>> >>> >> Do a good job at understanding the human voice. B

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > >>> What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years >>> ago? >>> >> >> >> Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat the 2 best human >> players at Jeopardy. Drive a car safely for many miles over very roug

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 12:38:21 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? >> > > Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat the 2 best human > players at Jeopardy.

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > What can you do with your computer that you couldn't do five years ago? > Do a good job at understanding the human voice. Beat the 2 best human players at Jeopardy. Drive a car safely for many miles over very rough terrain. Discovering that 2^43112

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:17:43 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > >> it's also true that the letter "e" is not Shakespeare's play "Hamlet", >>> but its part of it. >>> >> >> > By that analogy, you are crediting the letter "e" for authoring H

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: >> it's also true that the letter "e" is not Shakespeare's play "Hamlet", >> but its part of it. >> > > > By that analogy, you are crediting the letter "e" for authoring Hamlet. > The letter "e" did not write Hamlet and neither did one neuron inside Sh

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Monday, October 22, 2012 1:39:32 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > The reasons of my neurons are not my personal reasons. > > > True. And it's also true that the letter "e" is not Shakespeare's play > "Hamlet", but its part of it. > By that a

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > The reasons of my neurons are not my personal reasons. True. And it's also true that the letter "e" is not Shakespeare's play "Hamlet", but its part of it. > Neurons deal in GABA and acetylcholine. I deal in paychecks and days off. > Different level

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Saturday, October 20, 2012 12:50:55 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > If you can do something for your own personal reasons then you have free >> will. If you demand that personal reasons still must always come from >> outside of the person th

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > If you can do something for your own personal reasons then you have free > will. If you demand that personal reasons still must always come from > outside of the person themselves[...] > But I don't demand that at all! You might picked X and not Y en

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Friday, October 19, 2012 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > >> I do know that it's got to be one or the other. >>> >> >> > But I have just proved to you that it cannot be either one. >> > > So you have just proven that X is not Y and X is

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: >> I do know that it's got to be one or the other. >> > > > But I have just proved to you that it cannot be either one. > So you have just proven that X is not Y and X is not not Y. BULLSHIT! > > you don't have the wisdom to know when you don't kno

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 17 Oct 2012, at 15:28, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/17/2012 8:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:00, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the u

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is"

On 17 Oct 2012, at 20:01, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/17/2012 9:33 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Dear Stephen, On 16 Oct 2012, at 16:03, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 9:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Even ideal machines driven by reason have to face their irrationality when looking inw

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 5:04:10 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > You are the one that is saying everything happens for a reason or not >> for a reason. >> > > Yes. > > >> Which category do laws fall under? >> > > I haven't the slightest

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > You are the one that is saying everything happens for a reason or not for > a reason. > Yes. > Which category do laws fall under? > I haven't the slightest idea, but I do know that it's got to be one or the other. > > Yet you claim that it had t

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 1:54:35 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > > while most people are content to accept that these [physical] 'laws' >> simply 'are', I am more inclined to question what exactly we mean by that. >> > >

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > while most people are content to accept that these [physical] 'laws' > simply 'are', I am more inclined to question what exactly we mean by that. > It's a pity you weren't also inclined to question what exactly we mean by "free will" given

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is"

Dear Stephen, On 16 Oct 2012, at 16:03, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 9:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg After looking at how computers make choices-- whether they are free or whatever-- I now see that my previous position t

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 10/17/2012 8:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:00, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the universe is actually a simulation but that is more c

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 16 Oct 2012, at 15:00, Stephen P. King wrote: On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the universe is actually a simulation but that is more controversial. A tempting idea until we que

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 16 Oct 2012, at 10:02, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: A possible answer is that all possible universes exist and we find ourselves in one of those that has the kind of physical laws leading to observers. I'm familiar with the Anth

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

I can be the result of a tautological causation: natural selection: what is reasonable? what at a certain level in tjhinking beings achieve survival.. what exist? what help to survive. What survives? what perdures. What perdures? waht reproduces. What reproduces? what is sucessfull. What is suces

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 3:40:41 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 10/16/2012 10:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > *How can reason be created (for the very first time in the cosmos) for a > reason (fails because it is circular) * > > > Seems to be a pun on "reason" = "rational thinking" and "re

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 10/16/2012 10:41 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: *How can reason be created (for the very first time in the cosmos) for a reason (fails because it is circular) * Seems to be a pun on "reason" = "rational thinking" and "reason" = "explanatory cause". Brent -- You received this message because yo

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:04:24 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > > >> > That there are literally "laws" which physics obeys is a fairy tale. >> > > That statement is ignorance pure and simple. > Not at all. I fully aware

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 12:34 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > That there are literally "laws" which physics obeys is a fairy tale. > That statement is ignorance pure and simple. > How can reason be created for a reason (circular) or created not for a reason > I don't understand what part of X i

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 11:55:44 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > Did I ever say that I thought computers followed rules? > > > I was under the impression that you believed all computers did was blindly > follow programed rules. Apparently no

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

Hey John, We get it! You are just making sure that when the Singularity happens that the AI Overlords will consider you a useful pet. :-[ On 10/16/2012 11:55 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > Did I ever say that I thought computers followed rules? I was under the impression that you believed all computers did was blindly follow programed rules. Apparently not. Not only are your ideas foolish they are inconsistently foolish, you can't even

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is"

On 10/16/2012 9:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 Oct 2012, at 16:14, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Craig Weinberg After looking at how computers make choices-- whether they are free or whatever-- I now see that my previous position that computers have no intelligence was not exactly right, because t

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is"

10-13, 19:16:35 Subject: Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is" On Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:59:50 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Roger Clough wrote: ROGER: But if a computer beats you at an intelligen

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 10/16/2012 8:23 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: There is of course the idea that the universe is actually a simulation but that is more controversial. A tempting idea until we question what it is a simulation of?

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 4:02:44 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> A possible answer is that all > >> possible universes exist and we find ourselves in one of those that > >> has the kind of physical laws leading to obse

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> A possible answer is that all >> possible universes exist and we find ourselves in one of those that >> has the kind of physical laws leading to observers. > > > I'm familiar with the Anthropic principle, but what program does it run o

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Monday, October 15, 2012 11:49:52 AM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > Just because it looks to us that the computer is following rules doesn't >> mean that it is. >> > > So now you don't like computers because they don't follow rules, before >

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > Just because it looks to us that the computer is following rules doesn't > mean that it is. > So now you don't like computers because they don't follow rules, before you didn't like computers because they did follow rules. > We should not assume tha

Re: Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is"

2012-10-13, 18:59:19 Subject: Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is" On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > ROGER: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to > be programmed to do

Re: Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is"

ially near the end." -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Craig Weinberg Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-13, 19:16:35 Subject: Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if"ratherthan"is" On Sat

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 10/14/2012 11:36 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Sunday, October 14, 2012 2:19:14 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: On 10/14/2012 10:36 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough > wrote: > But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be pro

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sunday, October 14, 2012 2:19:14 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote: > > On 10/14/2012 10:36 AM, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough >wrote: > > > But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be >> programmed to do so. >> > > And you would have to be educated

Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On 10/14/2012 10:36 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough mailto:rclo...@verizon.net>> wrote: > But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be programmed to do so. And you would have to be educated to do so. > which means that its intell

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sunday, October 14, 2012 1:42:40 PM UTC-4, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Craig Weinberg >wrote: > > > you can see from the differences between conjoined twins, who have the >> same nature and nurture, the same environment, that they are not the same >> people >> > > That is tru

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Craig Weinberg wrote: > you can see from the differences between conjoined twins, who have the > same nature and nurture, the same environment, that they are not the same > people > That is true they are not the same people, and just like EVERYTHING else they are not the sam

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 Roger Clough wrote: > But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to be > programmed to do so. > And you would have to be educated to do so. > which means that its intelligence would be that of the programmer. Then how can the computer beat that

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sunday, October 14, 2012 12:46:38 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> Yes, the Big Bang is a program. There are initial conditions and rules > >> that lead deterministically to the unfolding of the entire multiverse > >> and al

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:47 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> Yes, the Big Bang is a program. There are initial conditions and rules >> that lead deterministically to the unfolding of the entire multiverse >> and all its rich content. All of science is an effort to work out >> details of the algorith

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:24:15 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> Two identical computers with identical programs taking environmental > >> input from sensors only millimetres apart could produce radically > >> different

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> Two identical computers with identical programs taking environmental >> input from sensors only millimetres apart could produce radically >> different outputs. For example, the environmental input could be the >> least significant digit i

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Saturday, October 13, 2012 7:49:03 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weinberg > > > wrote: > > >> But if a human beats you at an intelligent task he would have been > >> programmed to do so - by evolution, by parents, teachers and various > >> other asp

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> But if a human beats you at an intelligent task he would have been >> programmed to do so - by evolution, by parents, teachers and various >> other aspects of the environment. So the intelligence of the human is >> really the intelligence

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Saturday, October 13, 2012 6:59:50 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Roger Clough > > > wrote: > > > ROGER: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have > to be programmed to do so. > > which means that its intelligence would be that o

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > ROGER: But if a computer beats you at an intelligent task, it would have to > be programmed to do so. > which means that its intelligence would be that of the programmer. This > is always the case. > Computers cannot make free choic

Re: Re: Re: I believe that comp's requirement is one of "as if" ratherthan"is"

Hi John Clark ROGER: > if you could tell me how to determine if a computer has intelligence JOHN: The same way I determine if one of my fellow human beings is intelligent, if he beats me at a intellectual task then he's intelligent, in fact he's more intelligent than I am at least at