Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences on 8/23/06 2:09 PM, Paul Mason at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had someone contact me recently to assist with a degree they are doing on aspects of MMY and the TMO. I am already aware of Dr Coplin's work. But to whom are your referring to when you write of 'people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO'? He might be referring to Rob McCutchean, who wrote a paper on it which youll find in our files section. __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 8/23/06 2:09 PM, Paul Mason at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had someone contact me recently to assist with a degree they are doing on aspects of MMY and the TMO. I am already aware of Dr Coplin's work. But to whom are your referring to when you write of 'people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO'? He might be referring to Rob McCutchean, who wrote a paper on it which you¹ll find in our files section. I couldn't find this, Rick. Could you be more specific as to where it is, what folder? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences on 8/24/06 5:03 PM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 8/23/06 2:09 PM, Paul Mason at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had someone contact me recently to assist with a degree they are doing on aspects of MMY and the TMO. I am already aware of Dr Coplin's work. But to whom are your referring to when you write of 'people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO'? He might be referring to Rob McCutchean, who wrote a paper on it which youll find in our files section. I couldn't find this, Rick. Could you be more specific as to where it is, what folder? Its called The Social and the Celestial.doc and is in http://tinyurl.com/bt7sp __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 8/24/06 5:03 PM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip He might be referring to Rob McCutchean, who wrote a paper on it which you¹ll find in our files section. I couldn't find this, Rick. Could you be more specific as to where it is, what folder? It¹s called ³The Social and the Celestial.doc² and is in http://tinyurl.com/bt7sp Thanks, Rick. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/24/06 5:03 PM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote: snip He might be referring to Rob McCutchean, who wrote a paper on it which you¹ll find in our files section. I couldn't find this, Rick. Could you be more specific as to where it is, what folder? It¹s called ³The Social and the Celestial.doc² and is in http://tinyurl.com/bt7sp Thanks, Rick. What was the context of this paper? Where was it published/what was its intended audience? And what is Robert McCutchean's background, both academic,. and TM-related? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: I read what he writes. He is completely absolutely 100% incorrect to distinguish this fanciful 'MMY/TMO enlightenment' or 'MMY-style enlightenment' from other modes or styles of enlightenment. Only a mind in bondage would even concieve of such an abstraction. Enlightenment is enlightenment is enlightenment. Each of us experiences It differently, but It is the same thing. There is no such thing as 'MMY/TMO style enlightenment' vs other styles of enlightenment. The idea is completely incorrect and rediculous! It is a stupid game he plays, who's only object is to disavow his own self-dissolution. Does exhibiting or not exhibiting particular subtle dualistic phenomena qualify as experiencing It differently? What I see as the defining core of awakening is a shift in identity from the limited I/me to pure Being, the conscious nature, or however you choose to describe that I AM THATness. However, one can realize that shift in identity without being able to perform esoteric parlor tricks. Claiming that one is not awake unless he's witnessing 24/7 is absurd; it's like claiming that one is not awake unless he can make steam rise off ice-water soaked sheets wrapped around the body. There's awake and there's *permanently* awake, though of course, even the 24/7 witnessing dudes (TSSWD?) may not be permanently in CC. In my experience, witnessing sleep is more common than witnessing wakefulness. I thought that was the most common way to go but perhaps not. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 8/22/06 1:56 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is really odd and funny, if not delusional, is that we are asked, by implication, to suspend disbelief and support the notion, that Jim who has such poor comprehension skills, and who regularly makes cognitive errors, is able to clearly interpret his experiences, and self-proclaim himself as in BC. Remember MMY¹s term ³babbling saint²? Not paticulary, but i get your point. Stories from Kumba Mela of odd ones. However, MMY does not appear to be holding as a general rule that babbling fools are prime candidates for his defined TMO/MMY styles of enlightenments. Clear intellect and abilities of sharp discrimination of subtlest points have ben pointed to by him as highly useful. I think his words ere even as far as necessary for enlightenment (and proper understanding / interpretation of it (per his TMO/MMY style of enlightenment.) From classic literature and other teachers, a clear intellect and abilities of sharp discrimination of subtlest points are also deemed, at a minimum, highly useful, in their defined liberations. So it appears a clear intellect and abilities of sharp discrimination of subtlest points appears to be associated with a very high percentage of those liberated, but perhaps not 100%. Thus, while these qualities are highly useful for liberation, there are other factors. So one can't say such qualities predict high states and liberation is high. However, lack of such qualities may well predict the absence of high states and liberation. That is, per MMY, other teachers, and classical literature, enlightenment [per their system] are found difficult, if not impossible, for those without a clear intellect and abilities of sharp discrimination of subtlest points. I¹m not agreeing that Jim doesn¹t have good communication skills, communications skills is not the primary issue -- rather its a clear intellect and abilities of sharp discrimination of subtlest points. but even if he didn¹t that wouldn¹t necessarily say anything about his level of consciousness. So its a probablistic thing. Thus I would refine and then agree with your statement, but even if he didn¹t have a clear intellect and abilities of sharp discrimination of subtlest points, that wouldn¹t necessarily say that he was not fully liberated. It just says its unlikely. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablus108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS, complete with physiological styles of functioning. I'm curious, is there any observation of people losing their enlightened brainwave pattern, when they get old and senile, and hence also having lost their TMO style enlightenment. People's brainfuctioning generally deteriorate, when they get old. MMY's behavior has for some time shown clear signs of his deteroriating brainfunctioning (which is of course natural considering his respectably high age). Irmeli And from where have you cooked up this rubbish ? Could you explain to me in which way my questions are rubbish? What I see around me is that people's brainfuctioning deteriorates generally deteriorates when they get older. I think it is also a scientifically proven fact. Irmeli To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/22/06 12:34 PM, jyouells2000 at jyouells@ wrote: I probably have the original version that was posted here. I'll look. My recollection is that the implication of that version is the same. But I'll check to see if I have it. Or it's in the archive of this group. It¹s in the files section. That's the one I posted from. That's the earliest then ? I think he means that's the original version that was posted here. Whether that's the early draft version others have mentioned is another question. I'm pretty sure I read it here, so unless something zipped through the a.m.t. group, I'm just misremembering. AD/HD transitioning to AD (Alzheimer's Disease) I guess... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Even though the terms Transcendental Meditation TM had not been coined, in 'Thirty Years Around the World' it states catagorically that before the yagna performed in October 1955, 'Throughout Kerala Maharishi was instructing the people in Transcendental Meditation'. In 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (an allusion to Guru Dev) Bal Brhmachari Mahsh (as he signed himself some weeks later) tells the audience:- 'When he devotes himself and meditates on the name and form (NAMA AND RUPA) of the LORD, he begins to experience some ANANDAM and also the Grace of the Lord in every walk of life. This experience of Peace and Anandam is Sadhana. And Sadhana naturally increases his devotion to God and makes him more and more attached to Him. Thus he develops intensity of Raga for the ISHTAM. Gradually, this final Raga goes on increasing and this increase of Raga and Love for the ISHTAM enables the Grihastha to feel the presence of his 'ISHTAM' always with him, in all his ways of life, in all his thought, speech and action.' Did you intend this as a refutation of what I said, Paul? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty All Mighty Power sounds like a rough translation of Ishvara (sp) from Patanjali. But note that he does *not* say the mantras are names of gods. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS, complete with physiological styles of functioning. I'm curious, is there any observation of people losing their enlightened brainwave pattern, when they get old and senile, and hence also having lost their TMO style enlightenment. People's brainfuctioning generally deteriorate, when they get old. MMY's behavior has for some time shown clear signs of his deteroriating brainfunctioning (which is of course natural considering his respectably high age). Irmeli Actually, brain-functioning doesn't deteriorate all that much just because you get old, and MMY doesn't show any signs of a stroke that I can see. Would you ask if people lose the ability to sleep or dream just because they got old? People don't lose their ability to dream, but many other functions deteriorate with aging. People get more sleep disturbances, they have more difficult to keep their balance, when moving. Balance keeping is a demanding function of coordination in the brain. Mental problems increase with aging often in the form of irrational fears and mild paranoia. If you asked a pathologist, he would definitely claim that there is clear age related deterioration happening in the brain, even if there may appear new structures also. I see a certain kind of deterioration in myself even if I'm only 55. I tend to forget names more easily now. I also have to put my appointments and many tasks on calendar to be sure to remember them on time. When younger I remembered all my appointments easily without any calendar. But I can see improvement also in some other areas. MMY's very weird behaviour and his many irrational claims and stumbling in his speaking I have considered to be a result from weaker brain functioning that is very common in people of his age. I don't claim his behaviour to be a result of a massive stroke. Irmeli To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Whether 'associated' or 'name', at least one TM bij mantra is a familiar name for a Hindu god, in fact it is a fairly common name in India. In fact Google has no fewer than 11,500 images associated with just one spelling of the 'name' ( 2,940,000 hits webwide). Indeed corruptions of other TM mantras are also popular names. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty Grad students studying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) should now tune in to observe Judy Stein's next 40 posts in which she will demonstrate that Maharishi did NOT mean in that quote that TM mantras are the names of gods. And then she will call you a liar. Er, the usual definition of mantra isn't name. Of course it isn't. The gods have perfectly good names of their own, and they aren't the same as the bija mantras TM uses. The bija mantras are semantically meaningless sounds that have been *associated with* gods in Hinduism. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
on 8/21/06 1:38 PM, curtisdeltablues at curtisdeltablues@ wrote: My prediction is that anyone who gets on the enlightened list will be banned from future courses. MMY's organization is not built for people who claim to have reached the goal. The only one beard in the room rule still applies. Am I wrong? That was my response to my friend. The powers that be (and some people on this list) get very nervous when someone claims to have reached the goal. If Maharishi is not open to input about the TMO, why would he be open to any experience of higher states that does not conform to the framework that he has laid down. Hasn't anyone noticed that many (if not the majority of) people who have stabilized higher states move away from the TMO? JohnY The TMO is for people in ignorance striving for enlightenment. That's its dharma. It has nothing to do with life after realization. This seems to be true, and also, the idea, that Maharishi has some kind of monopoly on enlightenment, or verifying 'true' enlightenment, as defined by the TMO, or him, is simply ridiculous; It reminds me of the fundies who claim the proclaiming Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and that Jesus is God, and died for your sins: Is the only way, you're gonna get into Heaven... Ok, it's the same things, you crazy meditators... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
(snip) No TMO/MMY enlightenment afer MMY passes then? Tougher for both parties to get to the mic then. JohnY The thing about being enlightened is: as Maharishi has said: that: one has access to all knowledge. Therefore, it would follow from this, then: If one is enlightened, then one has direct access to the transcendent. When one has direct access to the transcendent, then it would follow, that one has access to 'other levels of reality' , which would support experiences and knowledge, that to one who was not enlightened; Would have little or no meaning. My point here being; that when you are in touch more with your own infinite soul; You have access to these different levels; And if it became necessary to communicate with Maharishi; Whether he is still on this physical earth plane or not. Doesn't really [matter], no pun intended... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
I post stuff for information, not to refute other people's opinions. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to reconcile some of the things that MMY has said. Incidentally, there is currently a time lapse to my postings of many hours, this message is being sent from FFL website at Wed Aug 23 10:34 UK time. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: Even though the terms Transcendental Meditation TM had not been coined, in 'Thirty Years Around the World' it states catagorically that before the yagna performed in October 1955, 'Throughout Kerala Maharishi was instructing the people in Transcendental Meditation'. In 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (an allusion to Guru Dev) Bal Brhmachari Mahsh (as he signed himself some weeks later) tells the audience:- 'When he devotes himself and meditates on the name and form (NAMA AND RUPA) of the LORD, he begins to experience some ANANDAM and also the Grace of the Lord in every walk of life. This experience of Peace and Anandam is Sadhana. And Sadhana naturally increases his devotion to God and makes him more and more attached to Him. Thus he develops intensity of Raga for the ISHTAM. Gradually, this final Raga goes on increasing and this increase of Raga and Love for the ISHTAM enables the Grihastha to feel the presence of his 'ISHTAM' always with him, in all his ways of life, in all his thought, speech and action.' Did you intend this as a refutation of what I said, Paul? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty All Mighty Power sounds like a rough translation of Ishvara (sp) from Patanjali. But note that he does *not* say the mantras are names of gods. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Several postings have not yet appeared, which I posted prior to this message, but maybe there is still a chance they will. Oh well, at least the time lapse appears to have been arighted. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I post stuff for information, not to refute other people's opinions. It is very difficult (if not impossible) to reconcile some of the things that MMY has said. Incidentally, there is currently a time lapse to my postings of many hours, this message is being sent from FFL website at Wed Aug 23 10:34 UK time. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: Even though the terms Transcendental Meditation TM had not been coined, in 'Thirty Years Around the World' it states catagorically that before the yagna performed in October 1955, 'Throughout Kerala Maharishi was instructing the people in Transcendental Meditation'. In 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (an allusion to Guru Dev) Bal Brhmachari Mahsh (as he signed himself some weeks later) tells the audience:- 'When he devotes himself and meditates on the name and form (NAMA AND RUPA) of the LORD, he begins to experience some ANANDAM and also the Grace of the Lord in every walk of life. This experience of Peace and Anandam is Sadhana. And Sadhana naturally increases his devotion to God and makes him more and more attached to Him. Thus he develops intensity of Raga for the ISHTAM. Gradually, this final Raga goes on increasing and this increase of Raga and Love for the ISHTAM enables the Grihastha to feel the presence of his 'ISHTAM' always with him, in all his ways of life, in all his thought, speech and action.' Did you intend this as a refutation of what I said, Paul? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty All Mighty Power sounds like a rough translation of Ishvara (sp) from Patanjali. But note that he does *not* say the mantras are names of gods. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Listen, Paul, she's going to beat you over the head until you realize that no matter how many times in how many ways Maharishi has said that the mantras are names of gods, that they are not the names of gods. I think Paul probably knows better already, Shemp. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablus108 nablus108@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS, complete with physiological styles of functioning. I'm curious, is there any observation of people losing their enlightened brainwave pattern, when they get old and senile, and hence also having lost their TMO style enlightenment. People's brainfuctioning generally deteriorate, when they get old. MMY's behavior has for some time shown clear signs of his deteroriating brainfunctioning (which is of course natural considering his respectably high age). Irmeli And from where have you cooked up this rubbish ? Could you explain to me in which way my questions are rubbish? What I see around me is that people's brainfuctioning deteriorates generally deteriorates when they get older. I think it is also a scientifically proven fact. Most of that obvious deteriation is due to disease and stroke, NOT just because someone has gotten older. Nurses are warned to watch out for obvious changes of cognitive ability in older patients as signs of such things. A little forgetfulness is one thing, but a LOT is something else. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whether 'associated' or 'name', at least one TM bij mantra is a familiar name for a Hindu god, in fact it is a fairly common name in India. In fact Google has no fewer than 11,500 images associated with just one spelling of the 'name' ( 2,940,000 hits webwide). Indeed corruptions of other TM mantras are also popular names. No doubt, but this is a relatively modern tradition, is it not? The bija mantras may predate the Vedic age in India... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty Grad students studying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) should now tune in to observe Judy Stein's next 40 posts in which she will demonstrate that Maharishi did NOT mean in that quote that TM mantras are the names of gods. And then she will call you a liar. Er, the usual definition of mantra isn't name. Of course it isn't. The gods have perfectly good names of their own, and they aren't the same as the bija mantras TM uses. The bija mantras are semantically meaningless sounds that have been *associated with* gods in Hinduism. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS, complete with physiological styles of functioning. I'm curious, is there any observation of people losing their enlightened brainwave pattern, when they get old and senile, and hence also having lost their TMO style enlightenment. People's brainfuctioning generally deteriorate, when they get old. MMY's behavior has for some time shown clear signs of his deteroriating brainfunctioning (which is of course natural considering his respectably high age). Irmeli Actually, brain-functioning doesn't deteriorate all that much just because you get old, and MMY doesn't show any signs of a stroke that I can see. Would you ask if people lose the ability to sleep or dream just because they got old? People don't lose their ability to dream, but many other functions deteriorate with aging. People get more sleep disturbances, they have more difficult to keep their balance, when moving. Balance keeping is a demanding function of coordination in the brain. Mental problems increase with aging often in the form of irrational fears and mild paranoia. If you asked a pathologist, he would definitely claim that there is clear age related deterioration happening in the brain, even if there may appear new structures also. I see a certain kind of deterioration in myself even if I'm only 55. I tend to forget names more easily now. I also have to put my appointments and many tasks on calendar to be sure to remember them on time. When younger I remembered all my appointments easily without any calendar. But I can see improvement also in some other areas. MMY's very weird behaviour and his many irrational claims and stumbling in his speaking I have considered to be a result from weaker brain functioning that is very common in people of his age. I don't claim his behaviour to be a result of a massive stroke. Without a massive stroke, I see no reason to assume he's become unenlightened due to age, and I'm not sure that even that would do it. States of consciousness (and I suspect that at least CC and certainly TC, qualify as unqiue states of consciousness) are pretty hard to get rid of. 89 year old (90?) enlightened sages may be a little forgetful and irritable, but they're still enlightened sages, I think. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS, complete with physiological styles of functioning. I'm curious, is there any observation of people losing their enlightened brainwave pattern, when they get old and senile, and hence also having lost their TMO style enlightenment. People's brainfuctioning generally deteriorate, when they get old. MMY's behavior has for some time shown clear signs of his deteroriating brainfunctioning (which is of course natural considering his respectably high age). Irmeli Actually, brain-functioning doesn't deteriorate all that much just because you get old, and MMY doesn't show any signs of a stroke that I can see. Would you ask if people lose the ability to sleep or dream just because they got old? People don't lose their ability to dream, but many other functions deteriorate with aging. People get more sleep disturbances, they have more difficult to keep their balance, when moving. Balance keeping is a demanding function of coordination in the brain. Mental problems increase with aging often in the form of irrational fears and mild paranoia. If you asked a pathologist, he would definitely claim that there is clear age related deterioration happening in the brain, even if there may appear new structures also. I see a certain kind of deterioration in myself even if I'm only 55. I tend to forget names more easily now. I also have to put my appointments and many tasks on calendar to be sure to remember them on time. When younger I remembered all my appointments easily without any calendar. But I can see improvement also in some other areas. MMY's very weird behaviour and his many irrational claims and stumbling in his speaking I have considered to be a result from weaker brain functioning that is very common in people of his age. I don't claim his behaviour to be a result of a massive stroke. Without a massive stroke, I see no reason to assume he's become unenlightened due to age, and I'm not sure that even that would do it. States of consciousness (and I suspect that at least CC and certainly TC, qualify as unqiue states of consciousness) are pretty hard to get rid of. 89 year old (90?) enlightened sages may be a little forgetful and irritable, but they're still enlightened sages, I think. I agree, but do their brainwave scans still qualify for the TMO style enlightenment? Has any research been made on this issue? Irmeli To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
MMY is on record as advocating freedom from the restrictions of the binding power of speech. I am sympathetic with anyone who attempts to reconcile his various statements about mantras, the effects of meditation, the genesis of TM, et al. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: Even though the terms Transcendental Meditation TM had not been coined, in 'Thirty Years Around the World' it states catagorically that before the yagna performed in October 1955, 'Throughout Kerala Maharishi was instructing the people in Transcendental Meditation'. In 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (an allusion to Guru Dev) Bal Brhmachari Mahsh (as he signed himself some weeks later) tells the audience:- 'When he devotes himself and meditates on the name and form (NAMA AND RUPA) of the LORD, he begins to experience some ANANDAM and also the Grace of the Lord in every walk of life. This experience of Peace and Anandam is Sadhana. And Sadhana naturally increases his devotion to God and makes him more and more attached to Him. Thus he develops intensity of Raga for the ISHTAM. Gradually, this final Raga goes on increasing and this increase of Raga and Love for the ISHTAM enables the Grihastha to feel the presence of his 'ISHTAM' always with him, in all his ways of life, in all his thought, speech and action.' Listen, Paul, she's going to beat you over the head until you realize that no matter how many times in how many ways Maharishi has said that the mantras are names of gods, that they are not the names of gods. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty All Mighty Power sounds like a rough translation of Ishvara (sp) from Patanjali. But note that he does *not* say the mantras are names of gods. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: Where on earth do you get this idea that when someone posts something they are asking by implication that it be supported by those on this board? First, lets clarify that support the notion is casual conversational language. It would be, formally, more precise, to have said find plausible the notion. Does your point and objection change if I make that innoccuous substitution? No. I continue to have no interest at all in whether or not what I state here is accepted by others as plausible or not. If it is accepted, fine. If not, fine. All of your further ranting about my difficiencies as you see them only reflects back on you, sir. It is an attempt to disavow your own fear of dissolution. Now that I have your attention, please support your earlier statement, quoted below from post 110920, by listing ONE PERSON who you believe to be enlightened (a very low bar, I might add): The above statements do NOT translate, imply, infer or mean any of the following statments (that some have oddly seen in my posts): - No one is enlightened. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: --- Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/21/06 4:41 PM, curtisdeltablues at curtisdeltablues@ wrote: I would be very interested to hear accounts of people telling MMY they were living in higher states of consciousness. Does MMY claim that King Tony is enlightened? Pretty much. He said he investigated and found that every cell in his body was permeated with Pure Consciousness. I welcome a more accurate rendition of that quote. That¹s my recollection. I would love to hear Tony talk about his experiences outside of the TMO rhetoric. Why would he? Did Jesus talk about God outside the Hebrew rhetoric? Did Buddha make up terms or use the traditional ones? Why not? Why does he have to do things like anyone in the past, anyway? Also, don't you think, people in his family, and friends see him in an average enviornment. It's just the fact, that in that level of consciousness; Instead of seeing everything as seperate from yourself; You experience yourself as one with everything... So, you are having a Unity experience, whether using the movements jargon, or just sitting on the beach... R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty Grad students studying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) should now tune in to observe Judy Stein's next 40 posts in which she will demonstrate that Maharishi did NOT mean in that quote that TM mantras are the names of gods. And then she will call you a liar. Er, the usual definition of mantra isn't name. Of course it isn't. The gods have perfectly good names of their own, and they aren't the same as the bija mantras TM uses. The bija mantras are semantically meaningless sounds that have been *associated with* gods in Hinduism. I still remember the definition of the mantra, for us; Was that it was a sound, with Known Qualities. Life-Supporting qualities. In those days when he first came out of India, and used to the Indian use of Mantras, he would have had to teach it differently to that culture, as compared to our culture. Maharishi decided to distill the mantra concept for a 'Name of God' To: a suitible sound for transcending with 'life-supporting effects. This was a more simple and acceptible way of expressing his ideas in the West. It was never to decieve anyone; Rather it was to simplify his technique, so it would simple involve trascending. Then when in the 70's the technique was rejected as a teaching worthy of the public school system; And claimed that mantras to be names of gods, and so on, and so forth. Plus the fact at that time; that people in the movement were clamoring for more techniques; Maharishi started to teach the more advance yogic techniques; As we are all well aware. Now there is nothing hidden in the TMO's agenda of veiling the TM movements identification with 'Hindu Gods and Goddesses'. So, the movement has evolved, the way it has evolved; Based on the need of the time; Because so many people, after learnng TM, Went on to learn other things; Or just weren't that interested to continue there spiritual seeking; In the same way. R.G. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
All that can safely said is that the bija mantras pre-date our age. People stuck for something to say tend to go 'mm', which is just about how the pranava bij mantra is correctly spelt i.e. Long uu long nasal M. That appears to be natural, and is likely to predate experiments with mantra meditation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: Whether 'associated' or 'name', at least one TM bij mantra is a familiar name for a Hindu god, in fact it is a fairly common name in India. In fact Google has no fewer than 11,500 images associated with just one spelling of the 'name' ( 2,940,000 hits webwide). Indeed corruptions of other TM mantras are also popular names. No doubt, but this is a relatively modern tradition, is it not? The bija mantras may predate the Vedic age in India... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty Grad students studying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) should now tune in to observe Judy Stein's next 40 posts in which she will demonstrate that Maharishi did NOT mean in that quote that TM mantras are the names of gods. And then she will call you a liar. Er, the usual definition of mantra isn't name. Of course it isn't. The gods have perfectly good names of their own, and they aren't the same as the bija mantras TM uses. The bija mantras are semantically meaningless sounds that have been *associated with* gods in Hinduism. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All that can safely said is that the bija mantras pre-date our age. I believe there is some evidence that the bija mantras predate traditional Hinduism, actually. People stuck for something to say tend to go 'mm', which is just about how the pranava bij mantra is correctly spelt i.e. Long uu long nasal M. That appears to be natural, and is likely to predate experiments with mantra meditation. But is not likely to have been the source of the bija mantras... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY is on record as advocating freedom from the restrictions of the binding power of speech. I am sympathetic with anyone who attempts to reconcile his various statements about mantras, the effects of meditation, the genesis of TM, et al. Perhaps you can give a context for this remark? Otherwise, I'm challking it up to your usual cynicism. BTW, lest everyone think that Paul is so knowledgeable as to be justified in is cynicism, I'd like to point out that there are people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO, who aren't nearly as cynical. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: Even though the terms Transcendental Meditation TM had not been coined, in 'Thirty Years Around the World' it states catagorically that before the yagna performed in October 1955, 'Throughout Kerala Maharishi was instructing the people in Transcendental Meditation'. In 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (an allusion to Guru Dev) Bal Brhmachari Mahsh (as he signed himself some weeks later) tells the audience:- 'When he devotes himself and meditates on the name and form (NAMA AND RUPA) of the LORD, he begins to experience some ANANDAM and also the Grace of the Lord in every walk of life. This experience of Peace and Anandam is Sadhana. And Sadhana naturally increases his devotion to God and makes him more and more attached to Him. Thus he develops intensity of Raga for the ISHTAM. Gradually, this final Raga goes on increasing and this increase of Raga and Love for the ISHTAM enables the Grihastha to feel the presence of his 'ISHTAM' always with him, in all his ways of life, in all his thought, speech and action.' Listen, Paul, she's going to beat you over the head until you realize that no matter how many times in how many ways Maharishi has said that the mantras are names of gods, that they are not the names of gods. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty All Mighty Power sounds like a rough translation of Ishvara (sp) from Patanjali. But note that he does *not* say the mantras are names of gods. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson Irmeli.Mattsson@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS, complete with physiological styles of functioning. I'm curious, is there any observation of people losing their enlightened brainwave pattern, when they get old and senile, and hence also having lost their TMO style enlightenment. People's brainfuctioning generally deteriorate, when they get old. MMY's behavior has for some time shown clear signs of his deteroriating brainfunctioning (which is of course natural considering his respectably high age). Irmeli Actually, brain-functioning doesn't deteriorate all that much just because you get old, and MMY doesn't show any signs of a stroke that I can see. Would you ask if people lose the ability to sleep or dream just because they got old? People don't lose their ability to dream, but many other functions deteriorate with aging. People get more sleep disturbances, they have more difficult to keep their balance, when moving. Balance keeping is a demanding function of coordination in the brain. Mental problems increase with aging often in the form of irrational fears and mild paranoia. If you asked a pathologist, he would definitely claim that there is clear age related deterioration happening in the brain, even if there may appear new structures also. I see a certain kind of deterioration in myself even if I'm only 55. I tend to forget names more easily now. I also have to put my appointments and many tasks on calendar to be sure to remember them on time. When younger I remembered all my appointments easily without any calendar. But I can see improvement also in some other areas. MMY's very weird behaviour and his many irrational claims and stumbling in his speaking I have considered to be a result from weaker brain functioning that is very common in people of his age. I don't claim his behaviour to be a result of a massive stroke. Without a massive stroke, I see no reason to assume he's become unenlightened due to age, and I'm not sure that even that would do it. States of consciousness (and I suspect that at least CC and certainly TC, qualify as unqiue states of consciousness) are pretty hard to get rid of. 89 year old (90?) enlightened sages may be a little forgetful and irritable, but they're still enlightened sages, I think. I agree, but do their brainwave scans still qualify for the TMO style enlightenment? Has any research been made on this issue? Not that I've heard of. But, as I said, there's no theory to predict that people would suddenly become unenlightened as they got older, and in fact, modern science, while it doesn't call it enlightenment, says that older people tend to get *wiser* by virtue of the larger number of connections in the brain. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All that can safely said is that the bija mantras pre-date our age. I believe there is some evidence that the bija mantras predate traditional Hinduism, actually. People stuck for something to say tend to go 'mm', which is just about how the pranava bij mantra is correctly spelt i.e. Long uu long nasal M. That appears to be natural, and is likely to predate experiments with mantra meditation. But is not likely to have been the source of the bija mantras... Ahh, are you sure? ;-) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
there are people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO, who aren't nearly as cynical. Is there anything online about this? I would like to read some more early movement history. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: MMY is on record as advocating freedom from the restrictions of the binding power of speech. I am sympathetic with anyone who attempts to reconcile his various statements about mantras, the effects of meditation, the genesis of TM, et al. Perhaps you can give a context for this remark? Otherwise, I'm challking it up to your usual cynicism. BTW, lest everyone think that Paul is so knowledgeable as to be justified in is cynicism, I'd like to point out that there are people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO, who aren't nearly as cynical. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: Even though the terms Transcendental Meditation TM had not been coined, in 'Thirty Years Around the World' it states catagorically that before the yagna performed in October 1955, 'Throughout Kerala Maharishi was instructing the people in Transcendental Meditation'. In 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (an allusion to Guru Dev) Bal Brhmachari Mahsh (as he signed himself some weeks later) tells the audience:- 'When he devotes himself and meditates on the name and form (NAMA AND RUPA) of the LORD, he begins to experience some ANANDAM and also the Grace of the Lord in every walk of life. This experience of Peace and Anandam is Sadhana. And Sadhana naturally increases his devotion to God and makes him more and more attached to Him. Thus he develops intensity of Raga for the ISHTAM. Gradually, this final Raga goes on increasing and this increase of Raga and Love for the ISHTAM enables the Grihastha to feel the presence of his 'ISHTAM' always with him, in all his ways of life, in all his thought, speech and action.' Listen, Paul, she's going to beat you over the head until you realize that no matter how many times in how many ways Maharishi has said that the mantras are names of gods, that they are not the names of gods. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty All Mighty Power sounds like a rough translation of Ishvara (sp) from Patanjali. But note that he does *not* say the mantras are names of gods. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MMY is on record as advocating freedom from the restrictions of the binding power of speech. I am sympathetic with anyone who attempts to reconcile his various statements about mantras, the effects of meditation, the genesis of TM, et al. And perhaps you have some examples of inconsistencies with regard to what he has said about mantras? I would guess that by advocating freedom from the restrictions of the binding power of speech, MMY is referring to the fact that a good deal of spiritual knowledge can only be roughly approximated in words. It's another way of saying The map is not the territory. If you get too attached or bound to words, you can create serious misunderstanding. Just as one example, take the Catholic Mass: you can describe it quite accurately as a ritual in which Catholics believe they are eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ. But if you attach yourself to those words alone, you would have good reason to assume that Catholicism is a cannibalistic religion --a very restricted view. And even when you go deeply into the theology of the Mass, such that the idea of cannibalism is shown to be absurd, the very innermost core of it is said to be a mystery: transsubstantiation, or how the bread actually *becomes* Christ's flesh and the wine his blood--the mechanism not being reducible to words. To truly know what the Mass is to a devout Catholic you must free yourself from the restrictions of the binding power of speech. With regard to the relationship between the bija mantras and Hindu deities, to say they're the names of gods is pretty much the comic-book version, and a very primitive comic book at that, akin to thinking of the Catholic Mass as a cannibalistic ritual. There *is* a relationship, but it's vastly more abstract than names of gods would suggest. Just to hint at the very tippy-top of the iceberg, bear in mind that in MMY's teaching, (1) gods is a term that refers ultimately to laws of nature, elemental forces of the manifest universe; and (2) these laws of nature are said to be inherent in one's own consciousness. Another (related) idea is that of rishi-devata- chhandas, the Knower, the process of knowing, and that which is known. The gods, or devas, are in that context *processes of knowing*, the means by which that which is known comes into being--which could also be described as laws of nature. (This is the source of the notion that You create your own reality--but as usually understood, that's also a comic-book version.) One might say that the bija mantras are abstract sounds that embody the devas (as opposed to their *names*--Shiva, Lakshmi, and so on), in the nama- and-rupa, name-and-form, formulation. Name as a translation of nama is misleading in this context. If the bija mantras are devas in this sense, and devas are processes of knowing, what is it we are doing with them in meditation? The mantra is the object of attention, or chhandas, that which is known, as we use it in meditation. But the mantra is also deva, or process of knowing--in other words, attention itself. So in putting the attention on the mantra, we are, in effect, mantra-ing the mantra. No wonder it tends to become more and more subtle and then disappear! snip 'When he devotes himself and meditates on the name and form (NAMA AND RUPA) of the LORD, he begins to experience some ANANDAM and also the Grace of the Lord in every walk of life. This experience of Peace and Anandam is Sadhana. And Sadhana naturally increases his devotion to God and makes him more and more attached to Him. Thus he develops intensity of Raga for the ISHTAM. Gradually, this final Raga goes on increasing and this increase of Raga and Love for the ISHTAM enables the Grihastha to feel the presence of his 'ISHTAM' always with him, in all his ways of life, in all his thought, speech and action.' If you think about it, the above is another way of describing the development of enlightenment through TM. Just as the seven states of consciousness TMers are taught here is the comic-book version of enlightenment for Westerners, the above is the comic-book version of enlightement for devout Hindus. I don't mean to use comic book as a term of derision here. It's just meant to suggest a necessary simplification and concretization of something that is virtually infinitely more abstract. But if you get hung up on the binding power of speech, you may be unable to loosen your understanding so as to begin to encompass the abstractions that underlie the speech. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: All that can safely said is that the bija mantras pre-date our age. I believe there is some evidence that the bija mantras predate traditional Hinduism, actually. People stuck for something to say tend to go 'mm', which is just about how the pranava bij mantra is correctly spelt i.e. Long uu long nasal M. That appears to be natural, and is likely to predate experiments with mantra meditation. But is not likely to have been the source of the bija mantras... Ahh, are you sure? ;-) Err, do the words not likely usually indicate certainty? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there are people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO, who aren't nearly as cynical. Is there anything online about this? I would like to read some more early movement history. http://hometown.aol.com/drcoplin/dissertation.html To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Thanks. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: there are people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO, who aren't nearly as cynical. Is there anything online about this? I would like to read some more early movement history. http://hometown.aol.com/drcoplin/dissertation.html To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/22/06 12:34 PM, jyouells2000 at jyouells@ wrote: I probably have the original version that was posted here. I'll look. My recollection is that the implication of that version is the same. But I'll check to see if I have it. Or it's in the archive of this group. It¹s in the files section. That's the one I posted from. That's the earliest then ? I think he means that's the original version that was posted here. Whether that's the early draft version others have mentioned is another question. I'm pretty sure I read it here, so unless something zipped through the a.m.t. group, I'm just misremembering. AD/HD transitioning to AD (Alzheimer's Disease) I guess... Hey sparaig, it's just misremembering. Don't put all those labels on yourself, it'll hurt :) JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (snip) No TMO/MMY enlightenment afer MMY passes then? Tougher for both parties to get to the mic then. JohnY The thing about being enlightened is: as Maharishi has said: that: one has access to all knowledge. Therefore, it would follow from this, then: If one is enlightened, then one has direct access to the transcendent. When one has direct access to the transcendent, then it would follow, that one has access to 'other levels of reality' , which would support experiences and knowledge, that to one who was not enlightened; Would have little or no meaning. My point here being; that when you are in touch more with your own infinite soul; You have access to these different levels; And if it became necessary to communicate with Maharishi; Whether he is still on this physical earth plane or not. Doesn't really [matter], no pun intended... I generally find communication with the dead to be somwhat less reliable than communication with the living, although in the case of some relatives, I'm not sure... :-) JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. All the mantras I teach in TM are the names of Hindu gods and I don't care what Alan Dershowitz or the Superior Court of New Jersey says about it! -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, March 7, 1966. LOL. As you know, the court case was in the mid-70's... That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. What people or organization find it useful to spread false qutations from Maharishi on the net ? And don't they have the resources to at least get the yearing correct ? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablus108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [I wrote:] That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. What people or organization find it useful to spread false qutations from Maharishi on the net ? Trancenet, for one. I'm sure it was in TM-Ex's repertoire as well. Wasn't false quotations so much as false interpretations of accurate quotations, i.e., mantras of personal gods from Beacon Light taken to mean names of personal gods. Fundie Christian groups were big on this one as well. And don't they have the resources to at least get the yearing correct ? What's yearing mean? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] One might say that the bija mantras are abstract sounds that embody the devas (as opposed to their *names*--Shiva, Lakshmi, and so on), in the nama- and-rupa, name-and-form, formulation. Name as a translation of nama is misleading in this context. If the bija mantras are devas in this sense, and devas are processes of knowing, what is it we are doing with them in meditation? The mantra is the object of attention, or chhandas, that which is known, as we use it in meditation. But the mantra is also deva, or process of knowing--in other words, attention itself. So in putting the attention on the mantra, we are, in effect, mantra-ing the mantra. No wonder it tends to become more and more subtle and then disappear! Samadhi is the samhita (collected unity) of rishi, devata and chhandas. What is name and what is form in that situation? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablus108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. All the mantras I teach in TM are the names of Hindu gods and I don't care what Alan Dershowitz or the Superior Court of New Jersey says about it! -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, March 7, 1966. LOL. As you know, the court case was in the mid-70's... That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. What people or organization find it useful to spread false qutations from Maharishi on the net ? Those with warped senses of humor? And don't they have the resources to at least get the yearing correct ? See above abut [time] warps. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: [...] One might say that the bija mantras are abstract sounds that embody the devas (as opposed to their *names*--Shiva, Lakshmi, and so on), in the nama- and-rupa, name-and-form, formulation. Name as a translation of nama is misleading in this context. If the bija mantras are devas in this sense, and devas are processes of knowing, what is it we are doing with them in meditation? The mantra is the object of attention, or chhandas, that which is known, as we use it in meditation. But the mantra is also deva, or process of knowing--in other words, attention itself. So in putting the attention on the mantra, we are, in effect, mantra-ing the mantra. No wonder it tends to become more and more subtle and then disappear! Samadhi is the samhita (collected unity) of rishi, devata and chhandas. What is name and what is form in that situation? Don't get the relevance, sorry. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
I had someone contact me recently to assist with a degree they are doing on aspects of MMY and the TMO. I am already aware of Dr Coplin's work. But to whom are your referring to when you write of 'people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO'? Sparaig, it is you who are cynical, about me. That's your problem, not mine. ] --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: MMY is on record as advocating freedom from the restrictions of the binding power of speech. I am sympathetic with anyone who attempts to reconcile his various statements about mantras, the effects of meditation, the genesis of TM, et al. Perhaps you can give a context for this remark? Otherwise, I'm challking it up to your usual cynicism. BTW, lest everyone think that Paul is so knowledgeable as to be justified in is cynicism, I'd like to point out that there are people who got their PhD's in Sociology by researching the early history of MMY and the TMO, who aren't nearly as cynical. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: Even though the terms Transcendental Meditation TM had not been coined, in 'Thirty Years Around the World' it states catagorically that before the yagna performed in October 1955, 'Throughout Kerala Maharishi was instructing the people in Transcendental Meditation'. In 'Beacon Light of the Himalayas' (an allusion to Guru Dev) Bal Brhmachari Mahsh (as he signed himself some weeks later) tells the audience:- 'When he devotes himself and meditates on the name and form (NAMA AND RUPA) of the LORD, he begins to experience some ANANDAM and also the Grace of the Lord in every walk of life. This experience of Peace and Anandam is Sadhana. And Sadhana naturally increases his devotion to God and makes him more and more attached to Him. Thus he develops intensity of Raga for the ISHTAM. Gradually, this final Raga goes on increasing and this increase of Raga and Love for the ISHTAM enables the Grihastha to feel the presence of his 'ISHTAM' always with him, in all his ways of life, in all his thought, speech and action.' Listen, Paul, she's going to beat you over the head until you realize that no matter how many times in how many ways Maharishi has said that the mantras are names of gods, that they are not the names of gods. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty All Mighty Power sounds like a rough translation of Ishvara (sp) from Patanjali. But note that he does *not* say the mantras are names of gods. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 8/22/06 9:11 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote: What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. Did I ever say that the people I was referring to were claiming MMY- style enlightenment? I have lost track of the specific comments you are referring to. If the people you were referring to were not claiming MMY- style enlightenment -- but that saying that they feel they have woken up, thats great. As my posts repeated say. If they use MMY's terminology, without implying their awaking is what MMY calls* CC, etc, then fine. *Since MMY has criteria and attributes for cc that they may not meet. And as I haveposted, MMY is the one who confirms experiences and states in the TMO. Unless things have changed radically recently. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 8/22/06 9:11 AM, authfriend at jstein@ wrote: What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. Did I ever say that the people I was referring to were claiming MMY- style enlightenment? I have lost track of the specific comments you are referring to. If the people you were referring to were not claiming MMY- style enlightenment -- but that saying that they feel they have woken up, thats great. As my posts repeated say. If they use MMY's terminology, without implying their awaking is what MMY calls* CC, etc, then fine. *Since MMY has criteria and attributes for cc that they may not meet. And as I haveposted, MMY is the one who confirms experiences and states in the TMO. Unless things have changed radically recently. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: [...] One might say that the bija mantras are abstract sounds that embody the devas (as opposed to their *names*--Shiva, Lakshmi, and so on), in the nama- and-rupa, name-and-form, formulation. Name as a translation of nama is misleading in this context. If the bija mantras are devas in this sense, and devas are processes of knowing, what is it we are doing with them in meditation? The mantra is the object of attention, or chhandas, that which is known, as we use it in meditation. But the mantra is also deva, or process of knowing--in other words, attention itself. So in putting the attention on the mantra, we are, in effect, mantra-ing the mantra. No wonder it tends to become more and more subtle and then disappear! Samadhi is the samhita (collected unity) of rishi, devata and chhandas. What is name and what is form in that situation? Don't get the relevance, sorry. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? I guess I'm pointing out that name and form loses relevance when they merge. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty Grad students studying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) should now tune in to observe Judy Stein's next 40 posts in which she will demonstrate that Maharishi did NOT mean in that quote that TM mantras are the names of gods. And then she will call you a liar. Er, the usual definition of mantra isn't name. Of course it isn't. The gods have perfectly good names of their own, and they aren't the same as the bija mantras TM uses. The bija mantras are semantically meaningless sounds that have been *associated with* gods in Hinduism. Bingo ! How old is Hinduism anyway - 1500 years old ? The TM mantras could be 4 years old or older. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablus108 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason premanandpaul@ wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty Grad students studying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) should now tune in to observe Judy Stein's next 40 posts in which she will demonstrate that Maharishi did NOT mean in that quote that TM mantras are the names of gods. And then she will call you a liar. Er, the usual definition of mantra isn't name. Of course it isn't. The gods have perfectly good names of their own, and they aren't the same as the bija mantras TM uses. The bija mantras are semantically meaningless sounds that have been *associated with* gods in Hinduism. Bingo ! How old is Hinduism anyway - 1500 years old ? The TM mantras could be 4 years old or older. Here's another quote from MMY on this subject: The mantras I use in TM instruction were invented on December 8, 14,032 B.C. -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi So, Nablus, you're off by about 24,000 years! To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences(death anyone?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@ wrote: (snip) No TMO/MMY enlightenment afer MMY passes then? Tougher for both parties to get to the mic then. JohnY The thing about being enlightened is: as Maharishi has said: that: one has access to all knowledge. Therefore, it would follow from this, then: If one is enlightened, then one has direct access to the transcendent. When one has direct access to the transcendent, then it would follow, that one has access to 'other levels of reality' , which would support experiences and knowledge, that to one who was not enlightened; Would have little or no meaning. My point here being; that when you are in touch more with your own infinite soul; You have access to these different levels; And if it became necessary to communicate with Maharishi; Whether he is still on this physical earth plane or not. Doesn't really [matter], no pun intended... I generally find communication with the dead to be somwhat less reliable than communication with the living, although in the case of some relatives, I'm not sure... :-) JohnY Well, that may be true; But there is also another belief system that doesn't believe in the concept of death... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences(death anyone?)
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@ wrote: (snip) No TMO/MMY enlightenment afer MMY passes then? Tougher for both parties to get to the mic then. JohnY The thing about being enlightened is: as Maharishi has said: that: one has access to all knowledge. Therefore, it would follow from this, then: If one is enlightened, then one has direct access to the transcendent. When one has direct access to the transcendent, then it would follow, that one has access to 'other levels of reality' , which would support experiences and knowledge, that to one who was not enlightened; Would have little or no meaning. My point here being; that when you are in touch more with your own infinite soul; You have access to these different levels; And if it became necessary to communicate with Maharishi; Whether he is still on this physical earth plane or not. Doesn't really [matter], no pun intended... I generally find communication with the dead to be somwhat less reliable than communication with the living, although in the case of some relatives, I'm not sure... :-) JohnY Well, that may be true; But there is also another belief system that doesn't believe in the concept of death... I'll mention that to a few folks without physial bodies and see what they think JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Exactly the map is different than the territory. The barest of information, enough to quide and inspire. How else can the non-dual descriptions be reconciled with what MMY says. He left much out by necessity, and for other reasons, and many still accept the map as the territory. Many don't anymore. Another point to add is that the map was initially comprehanded in waking state with all the implicit waking state limitations that one is necessarily oblivious to in waking state. Then there is a certain experience of Realization (stable or not) and the waking state map fits to a certain extent but not perfectly. Other traditions/gurus can offer conceptual tools that help make sense out of the experience. Buddha's and Adi Shankara's enlightenment are the same, but they articulate it in different ways. In my own experience I have found Buddha, initially, and later Ramana Maharishi (and Gangaji) extremely helpful in understanding what's going on. SSRS is there to carrot and stick me! The same folks for me along with Nasargardatta, Wilber, Merrill-Wolfe, Atma-Boda (Shankara) and others. Then I went back and listened to all of Maharishi's audio tapes (that I had in the Blue Cases) to see if he covered the dualistic - nondual misconceptions. He did, but only briefly. JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/21/06 9:26 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is what is so funny. You experience something. Probably grand. However you interpret in a particular way that what you experience is TMO/ MMY BC. Yet you have never discussed your experience with MMY. Or even with someone, or many, from what i can tell, who have. Is this essential? As a friend of mine put it, ³you¹re the only one at your graduation.² When your experience is mature and genuine, you don¹t need anyone¹s confirmation. I observe that people in higher states use MMY¹s terminology when it most effectively expresses what they are trying to say, and are equally comfortable quoting Nisargadatta, Ramana Maharishi, Eckhart Tolle, Donald Duck, or making up something new if that more effectively suits their purpose. Maybe Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the physiological correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up and provide a baseline to speed up the research. Maybe that's the same reason there isn't a large established pundit or flying group... Not sure if it will work. What state of consciousness would the resarchers be measuring? One test-subject does not a baseline make. True enough, from either way you look at it. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] Major states of consciousness may have 6 billion different flavors, but there are consistent features found in just about all 6 billion variations of the themes. Has Fred published much on this? On waking, dreaming and sleeping states? He started his career as a basic sleep researcher, BTW, but he apparently only published one sleep paper before returning to MUM. He did his PhD work at MIU around 1981 I think. BTW, the thalamus stuff is unpublished as yet. He's just been looking at all the brain imaging of TMers that he can find and sure enough He and Kieth Wallace proposed the mechanism back in paper #9 in 1999 and he presented his recent investigation on brain imaging at this year's Tucson Consciousness convention: http://www.maharishischooliowa.org/news/media/2006_05_travispaper.html On the TC/CC side of things, he's published quite a bit: mdeline search keyword: travis f http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=searchDB=pubmed Travis F, Arenander A, DuBois D.Related Articles, Links Psychological and physiological characteristics of a proposed object-referral/self- referral continuum of self-awareness. Conscious Cogn. 2004 Jun;13(2):401-20. PMID: 15134768 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 2: Travis F, Arenander A. Related Articles, Links EEG asymmetry and mindfulness meditation. Psychosom Med. 2004 Jan-Feb;66(1):147-8; author reply 147-8. No abstract available. PMID: 14747649 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 3: Travis F, Tecce J, Arenander A, Wallace RK. Related Articles, Links Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. Biol Psychol. 2002 Nov;61(3):293-319. PMID: 12406612 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 4: Travis F. Related Articles, Links Autonomic and EEG patterns distinguish transcending from other experiences during Transcendental Meditation practice. Int J Psychophysiol. 2001 Aug;42(1):1-9. PMID: 11451476 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 5: Travis F, Olson T, Egenes T, Gupta HK. Related Articles, Links Physiological patterns during practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique compared with patterns while reading Sanskrit and a modern language. Int J Neurosci. 2001 Jul;109(1-2):71-80. PMID: 11699342 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 6: Travis F, Tecce JJ, Guttman J. Related Articles, Links Cortical plasticity, contingent negative variation, and transcendent experiences during practice of the Transcendental Meditation technique. Biol Psychol. 2000 Nov;55(1):41-55. PMID: 11099807 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 8: Travis F, Pearson C.Related Articles, Links Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. Int J Neurosci. 2000;100(1-4):77-89. PMID: 10512549 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 9: Travis F, Wallace RK. Related Articles, Links Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. Conscious Cogn. 1999 Sep;8(3):302-18. PMID: 10487785 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 10: Travis F, Pearson C.Related Articles, Links Pure Consciousness: Distinct Phenomenological and Physiological Correlates of Consciousness Itself Int J Neurosci. 1999 Jan;100(1-4):77-89. PMID: 10938552 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher] 13: Mason LI, Alexander CN, Travis FT, Marsh G, Orme-Johnson DW, Gackenbach J, Mason DC, Rainforth M, Walton KG. Related Articles, Links Electrophysiological correlates of higher states of consciousness during sleep in long-term practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation program. Sleep. 1997 Feb;20(2):102-10. PMID: 9143069 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] 14: Travis F, Wallace RK. Related Articles, Links Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. Psychophysiology. 1997 Jan;34(1):39-46. PMID: 9009807 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: You are getting sucked into the conventional wisdom regarding how to measure stuff like consciousness. i am not getting sucked into anything. I have not stated my views. I am simply pointing out that the TMO and MMY has a cleary different view than you on the physiological correlates of higher states, and what those higher states are -- and their manifest attributes in the physiology of the liberated one. MMY also? Are you sure of that? While each state of awareness is physiologically distinct, I am not convinced each can be measured by today's scientific instruments. Clearly you are not. MMY and the TMO clearly are. Again, MMY also? You cannot prove that. Her appears to converge towards the instruments, but has never stated unequivocally that higher states can be measured with today's instruments. Don't know about today's instruments, but Fred T. seems to believe that there are some clearcut physical changes that can be measured, and that these changes explain things pretty nicely. Here's the clearest statement by MMY that I am aware of concerning this topic . I found it as a quote in one of the early SIMS/IMS publications: Spiritual and Material Values Every experience has its level of physiology, and so unbounded awareness has its own level of physiology which can be measured. Every aspect of life is integrated and connected with every other phase. When we talk of scientific measurements, it does not take away from the spiritual experience. We are not responsible for those times when spiritual experience was thought of as metaphysical. Everything is physical. Consciousness is the product of the functioning of the brain. Talking of scientific measurements is no damage to that wholeness of life which is present everywhere and which begins to be lived when the physiology is taking on a particular form. This is our understanding about spirituality: it is not on the level of faith --it is on the level of blood and bone and flesh and activity. It is measurable. -Maharishi Mahesh Yogi What is fun is that you can actually SEE the possible correlation between MMY's description Every aspect of life is integrated and connected with every other phase, and what is found in standard physiology textbooks. If Fred is correct about the thalamus issue, then the normal waking/dreamingfunctioning where sensory input of some kind is always going on has been sidestepped--literally. There are an amzing number of connections in the brain between virtually all parts of the brain, but the activity of these connections may well be secondary to sensory input--except during samadhi/TC. Here's a standard diagram showing a few of the main connections of the parts of the brain, aside from the sense- related ones: http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus751.html In samadhi every aspect of life is integrated and connected with every other phase... In CC, this is integrated with normal awareness. This is an asinine comment, but it is an extremely complex subject! It's not as simple as it first appears. What isn't as simple as it first appears? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/21/06 10:17 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And it lacks integrity to claim an awakening of ones own defitinion is in fact TMO style enlightenment. Maharishi necessarily generalized in describing these states. He has been heard to say that everyone¹s enlightenment has a different flavor. Just as dreaming and sleeping and waking states do. Thre's some pretty clearcut common features though, found in just about everyone except those with what are usually called pathologies. For instance, during the dreaming state, not only does the thalamus not accept outside input, but the part of the brain responsible for voluntary movement tends to shut down as well. When it doesn't, you get sleepwalking, and other abnormal acting out of your dreams. Actually, sleepwalking occurs in sleep state. What you're talking about is REM behavior disorder that occurs during dream state where the brain fails to block the motor impulses and the muscles fire based on the dream content. It's a very serious disorder and often found along with narcolepsy where a person enters dream state for several minutes directly from waking state usually triggered by a strong emotion. Thanks for the correction, but the voluntary motor areas are usually shut down during sleeping/dreaming states except in pathological cases right? That's my main point: there are sets of very common physiological correlates for the major states of consciousness, and just about everyone shows them except people with pathological conditions. By extension, you would expect this kind of thing (common set of correlates) for people in samadhi if samadhi (TC) really is a major state of consciousness. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: --- jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: Maybe Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the physiological correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up and provide a baseline to speed up the research. Physiological correlates would only relate to conditions of the mind. And there are many, many conditions of the mind from gross to very, very subtle. But I don't know if any physiological correlate of Realization will ever be established. Consciousness is outside of time and space. The mind can not quantify it; measure it. From the perspective of the mind, pure consciousness is absolutely nothing; emptiness; death; annihilation. Perhaps the best that could be done would be the impact on brain function of that Realization. But would there be a common EEG signature for all brains? I don't know. Right now I doubt it. It would be interesting to take MMY, Amma and SSRS and look at the similarities and disimilarities of their brain functioning. I'm curious what Fred Travis has come up with correlating specific enlightenment experiences with EEG function on the TM path (because I'm sure it would vary depending upon the path/techniques). Even if Fred used others, he would have to depend on the grokking of MMY, Amma, and SSRS or someone to give the nod to the folks used to establish the baseline signature. Have to start somewhere. Actually, Fred asked for volunteers who were reporting long-term 24/7 witnessing. He interviewed them and found correlations between how they reported their internal perception of self and their EEG and other physiological measures: http://www.brainresearchinstitute.org/research/ConcCog2004.pdf Can't help comparing Earl's question to MMY about why he doesn't establish a group, when I think about this The EEG stuff is good PR and grant getting material. Again, which state? And, while perhaps I misremember the original letter, my recollection is that Kaplan reported MMY as saying there is no evidence that what you say would happen would happen. Kaplan took this to be referring to the ME. I took it to be referring to financial support from a grateful world... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: --- jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: Maybe Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the physiological correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up and provide a baseline to speed up the research. Physiological correlates would only relate to conditions of the mind. And there are many, many conditions of the mind from gross to very, very subtle. But I don't know if any physiological correlate of Realization will ever be established. Consciousness is outside of time and space. The mind can not quantify it; measure it. From the perspective of the mind, pure consciousness is absolutely nothing; emptiness; death; annihilation. Perhaps the best that could be done would be the impact on brain function of that Realization. But would there be a common EEG signature for all brains? I don't know. Right now I doubt it. It would be interesting to take MMY, Amma and SSRS and look at the similarities and disimilarities of their brain functioning. I'm curious what Fred Travis has come up with correlating specific enlightenment experiences with EEG function on the TM path (because I'm sure it would vary depending upon the path/techniques). Even if Fred used others, he would have to depend on the grokking of MMY, Amma, and SSRS or someone to give the nod to the folks used to establish the baseline signature. Have to start somewhere. Actually, Fred asked for volunteers who were reporting long-term 24/7 witnessing. He interviewed them and found correlations between how they reported their internal perception of self and their EEG and other physiological measures: http://www.brainresearchinstitute.org/research/ConcCog2004.pdf Can't help comparing Earl's question to MMY about why he doesn't establish a group, when I think about this The EEG stuff is good PR and grant getting material. Again, which state? And, while perhaps I misremember the original letter, my recollection is that Kaplan reported MMY as saying there is no evidence that what you say would happen would happen. Kaplan took this to be referring to the ME. I took it to be referring to financial support from a grateful world... Anything CC or above would be satisfactory for measurement puposes if they were looking for 'stable' patterns . This version of my story really starts about three years ago. I was sitting with Maharishi privately, because at the time I had an open invitation to come to Vlodrop and sit with Mahesh whenever I wanted to. At that time I knew that Mahesh had many tens of millions of dollars, the money he needed to create a 10,000 group. He was talking about building big buildings, buying airlines, etc. etc. I said, Maharishi, since you have the money and supposedly you have enough pundits, why don't you create a 10,000 group in India and then the world will experience peace and the TM movement will gain great support of the laws of nature and our other activities will work out. Mahesh looked at me like I was crazy and said Earl, if we created the group then we don't know if it would create world peace or not. We would have to have the group and then see what the effect it has. Earl Kaplans Letter 04/16/2004 Both Earl and Maharishi refer to creating world peace not wether the the world would support it finacially after the fact. JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: snip Again, which state? And, while perhaps I misremember the original letter, my recollection is that Kaplan reported MMY as saying there is no evidence that what you say would happen would happen. Kaplan took this to be referring to the ME. I took it to be referring to financial support from a grateful world... snip This version of my story really starts about three years ago. I was sitting with Maharishi privately, because at the time I had an open invitation to come to Vlodrop and sit with Mahesh whenever I wanted to. At that time I knew that Mahesh had many tens of millions of dollars, the money he needed to create a 10,000 group. He was talking about building big buildings, buying airlines, etc. etc. I said, Maharishi, since you have the money and supposedly you have enough pundits, why don't you create a 10,000 group in India and then the world will experience peace and the TM movement will gain great support of the laws of nature and our other activities will work out. Mahesh looked at me like I was crazy and said Earl, if we created the group then we don't know if it would create world peace or not. We would have to have the group and then see what the effect it has. Earl Kaplans Letter 04/16/2004 Both Earl and Maharishi refer to creating world peace not wether the the world would support it finacially after the fact. In that version of the letter. There has apparently been more than one, as reported here; supposedly a draft got into circulation before Kaplan thought it was ready. Above Lawson refers to the original version. Does he mean the draft, the first version that was circulated? If so, and if the quote Lawson remembers is accurate, Kaplan may have revised it in the later version to make what *he* understood MMY to be saying more explicit. Editorial analysis: The version you quote seems incomplete somehow. It's not clear why MMY would make such a statement and consider the matter closed. The natural response would be, So why not create the group and see what happens? But that question isn't asked. In the version Lawson cites, MMY's comment seems to complete the exchange, in the context of the various money-making endeavors they were talking about. Kaplan suggests that instead of doing all this other stuff to support the movement, MMY should create the pundit group, and that in itself will be all that is needed to keep the movement going indefinitely because *everybody* would then support the movement. But, in Lawson's verison, MMY responds that there's no evidence it would have that effect, i.e., that everyone would support the movement, implying that the TMO needs to establish solid financial foundation first before blowing the movement's existing resources on establishing the group. Once that's accomplished, then the group can be established and it won't matter whether anyone else supports the movement. Obviously we'd need to find the original draft version and see if Lawson's memory of how MMY is quoted is accurate. But if it is, that version seems to me to make more sense just in terms of the conversation itself. It would also be consistent with everything else MMY has been doing and saying. One other point: at the time of this conversation, there had been several large-scale tests of the Maharishi Effect, with published studies of the purportedly positive results (in particular the Jerusalem and D.C. gatherings). MMY clearly felt the ME had been documented (whether or not it had been), but there wasn't the outpouring of support from the world that he had initially expected. So in that context as well, the quote Lawson remembers makes more sense: from MMY's perspective, there *was* evidence that the ME worked, but there was no evidence that the world would recognize it and decide to support the movement. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However to proclaim MMY/TMO BC or other TMO/MMY style of enlightenment without his confirmation is delusion or lack of integrity. You yourself mentioned the trap of misinterpreating some form of awakening as being a much grander awakening. Given the extensive history of this in the TMO, and given MMY has been so picky and specific about confirmations of enlightenemnt, why does this premise appear to be an issue or question to you: To proclaim MMY/TMO BC or other TMO/MMY style of enlightenment without his confirmation is delusion or lack of integrity. To proclaim ones own definition of enlightenement, or ones friend's, is fine. Or for example, Alex's proclamation of his waking down level I awakening (excuse my lack of preciseness of terms) is great. My sole point is that these are not MMY/TMO styles of enlightenment. If you want to go to the mic, and have MMY confirm these as MMY/TMO BC or other MMY/TMO enlightenment, then great. Then proclaim away. Until then, its some other awakening. All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that one doesn't meet. And as long as someone's definition or proclamation of enlightenment doesn't fit your definition of what it should be, you are 'SAFE'. Please make sure that you are always 'SAFE', with every i dotted and every t crossed. 'SAFE'- Aye, that's the ticket, isn't it? 'SAFETY'. Dude, you may want to play this game about 'you can't be enlightened or have a valid experience of such, until you have satisfied all of my rules', because you know as well as I do that even if someone were to get up and speak with Maharishi, he would not proclaim them as being enlightened. 1) I have never heard of Him doing so, and 2) If he did on a regular basis, we would have all heard about it. Your game is just to keep your own fears of self-dissolution at bay. Nothing more and nothing less. So keep trying to dazzle us with your turns and feints, but you know what? At the end of the day, you are left in the dust with your empty arguments. Jai Guru Dev. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: snip All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that one doesn't meet. And as long as someone's definition or proclamation of enlightenment doesn't fit your definition of what it should be, you are 'SAFE'. Boy, Jim, either you aren't getting what new morning is saying AT ALL, or you feel you're entitled to ignore it completely and substitute a completely different version of your own devising. What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. He's not saying there is no other style of enlightenment, or that if you don't meet the MMY criteria you aren't enlightened. But that's how you seem to be interpreting what he writes, for no good reason that I can see. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: snip All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that one doesn't meet. And as long as someone's definition or proclamation of enlightenment doesn't fit your definition of what it should be, you are 'SAFE'. Boy, Jim, either you aren't getting what new morning is saying AT ALL, or you feel you're entitled to ignore it completely and substitute a completely different version of your own devising. What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. He's not saying there is no other style of enlightenment, or that if you don't meet the MMY criteria you aren't enlightened. But that's how you seem to be interpreting what he writes, for no good reason that I can see. Agreed Judy. Its rather sad the pattern: Jim has learned to parrot a particular catechism -- which has a heavy Tom/Rory flavor, IMO -- but has no clue as to how to apply it in the real world. Consistent with your points, the catechism points bear little or no relvance or correspondence to what I have written. Jim's cognitive disabilities, noted periodically over the past 6 months, contine to unravel. His responses to what he has read reflect near zero reading comprehension skills. Based on his perfomances here, given a paragraph or two, and asked to summarize or answer questions about what he has read (as is commonly done on achievement and skill level tests), he would fail miserably. For a so-called liberated, to be so over-shodowed with rote talking points that even the smallest stimulus triggers them -- while similtaneously the trigger apparently also overrides or shuts down rational facilities, is ironic. And its sad to see the diminishment of any human being. Yet from 5000 feet, as characture of bliss-ninny delusions -- its amusing. He is hardly a walking advertisment for liberation. More an advertisment for the possible dangers of sustained practice of neuro-physiological techniques for self-development. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He is hardly a walking advertisment for liberation. More an advertisment for the possible dangers of sustained practice of neuro-physiological techniques for self-development. Your game is pathetic and tiresome my friend. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: snip All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that one doesn't meet. And as long as someone's definition or proclamation of enlightenment doesn't fit your definition of what it should be, you are 'SAFE'. Boy, Jim, either you aren't getting what new morning is saying AT ALL, or you feel you're entitled to ignore it completely and substitute a completely different version of your own devising. What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. He's not saying there is no other style of enlightenment, or that if you don't meet the MMY criteria you aren't enlightened. But that's how you seem to be interpreting what he writes, for no good reason that I can see. Pray tell, do we or is there a consensus on MMY style enlightenment? I doubt it. I've always seen it as MMY giving us a conceptual tool kit so one doesn't have a heart attack when the domain of Realization is breached and most of the tools fall out of the toolbox. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: snip All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that one doesn't meet. And as long as someone's definition or proclamation of enlightenment doesn't fit your definition of what it should be, you are 'SAFE'. Boy, Jim, either you aren't getting what new morning is saying AT ALL, or you feel you're entitled to ignore it completely and substitute a completely different version of your own devising. What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. He's not saying there is no other style of enlightenment, or that if you don't meet the MMY criteria you aren't enlightened. But that's how you seem to be interpreting what he writes, for no good reason that I can see. I read what he writes. He is completely absolutely 100% incorrect to distinguish this fanciful 'MMY/TMO enlightenment' or 'MMY-style enlightenment' from other modes or styles of enlightenment. Only a mind in bondage would even concieve of such an abstraction. Enlightenment is enlightenment is enlightenment. Each of us experiences It differently, but It is the same thing. There is no such thing as 'MMY/TMO style enlightenment' vs other styles of enlightenment. The idea is completely incorrect and rediculous! It is a stupid game he plays, who's only object is to disavow his own self-dissolution. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: snip All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that one doesn't meet. And as long as someone's definition or proclamation of enlightenment doesn't fit your definition of what it should be, you are 'SAFE'. Boy, Jim, either you aren't getting what new morning is saying AT ALL, or you feel you're entitled to ignore it completely and substitute a completely different version of your own devising. What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. He's not saying there is no other style of enlightenment, or that if you don't meet the MMY criteria you aren't enlightened. But that's how you seem to be interpreting what he writes, for no good reason that I can see. Pray tell, do we or is there a consensus on MMY style enlightenment? Clearly there is a concensus on what the TMO and MMY consider enlightenment by the one person who counts: MMY. And probably a clear concensus among TMO administrators and researchers. My sole point is that it is the perogative for MMY and the TMO to define, list manifest attributes of, and confirm TMO/MMY style enlightenemnt however they deem appropriate. For someone to claim TMO/MMY style enlightenment without such TMO / and or MMY confirmation is fraud. Its like selling a watch as a Rolex when its not. (Not to imply a bias that TM/MMY enlightenemt is superior.) Or its like someone claiming to be a board ceertified psychoanalyst when the have not passed the requirments set by the board authorized to give that title. I fail to see why this is a hard concept for some to comprehend. Peter, whether there is a concensus about what TMO / MMY style enlightenment on this list, amongst your peers or network, is interesting -- but irrelevant as far as confirming someones TMO / MMY style enlightenment. That is the TMO and MMY's sole perogative. I've always seen it as MMY giving us a conceptual tool kit so one doesn't have a heart attack when the domain of Realization is breached and most of the tools fall out of the toolbox. OK. fine. That does not in any way effect the above stated perogative and right of the TMO to define, list manifest attributes of, and confirm TMO/MMY style enlightenemnt how ever it deems appropriate. Since there is a lot of extra stuff floating in peoples mind, that when reading posts, in their minds appear to glob on and distort in their minds what a poster says. They read a post with assumptions about what the poster means, not what he/she is actually saying. Let me be clear. The above statements do NOT translate, imply, infer or mean any of the following statments (that some have oddly seen in my posts): - No one is enlightened. - MMY/ TMO style of enlightenement is superior to other awakenings, enlightenments or spiritual development - No other enlightenments or awakenings exist - MMY/ TMO style of enlightenement is different from all others. (It may be, or may not be. It clearly is different from some -- given that MMY requires clear sidhis for his confirmation of TMO / MMY style of enlightenment.) - That i am dismising the proclaimed enlightenment of others or claiming all such claimants are phonies. - that I am ridiculing those that claim some awakening or enlightenment based on thier own criteria or another teachers (This latter point however does not imply that I blindly buy into any and all claims -- particularly if there is a strong disconnet between claimed attributes and thier activity.) Again the above list of points CANNOT be found, implied or properly inferred from my primary points in the first part of this post. My sole point, oddly, yet apparently incomprehnsible to some, is that: MMY and the TMO have the perogative and right to define, list manifest attributes of, and confirm TMO/MMY style enlightenemnt however they deem appropriate. For someone to claim TMO/MMY style enlightenemnt without such TMO/MMY confirmation is fradulant. And sad. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter drpetersutphen@ wrote: --- jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: Maybe Maharishi isn't fully convinced about the physiological correlates either. Otherwise he would get wired up and provide a baseline to speed up the research. Physiological correlates would only relate to conditions of the mind. And there are many, many conditions of the mind from gross to very, very subtle. But I don't know if any physiological correlate of Realization will ever be established. Consciousness is outside of time and space. The mind can not quantify it; measure it. From the perspective of the mind, pure consciousness is absolutely nothing; emptiness; death; annihilation. Perhaps the best that could be done would be the impact on brain function of that Realization. But would there be a common EEG signature for all brains? I don't know. Right now I doubt it. It would be interesting to take MMY, Amma and SSRS and look at the similarities and disimilarities of their brain functioning. I'm curious what Fred Travis has come up with correlating specific enlightenment experiences with EEG function on the TM path (because I'm sure it would vary depending upon the path/techniques). Even if Fred used others, he would have to depend on the grokking of MMY, Amma, and SSRS or someone to give the nod to the folks used to establish the baseline signature. Have to start somewhere. Actually, Fred asked for volunteers who were reporting long-term 24/7 witnessing. He interviewed them and found correlations between how they reported their internal perception of self and their EEG and other physiological measures: http://www.brainresearchinstitute.org/research/ConcCog2004.pdf Can't help comparing Earl's question to MMY about why he doesn't establish a group, when I think about this The EEG stuff is good PR and grant getting material. Again, which state? And, while perhaps I misremember the original letter, my recollection is that Kaplan reported MMY as saying there is no evidence that what you say would happen would happen. Kaplan took this to be referring to the ME. I took it to be referring to financial support from a grateful world... Anything CC or above would be satisfactory for measurement puposes if they were looking for 'stable' patterns . This version of my story really starts about three years ago. I was sitting with Maharishi privately, because at the time I had an open invitation to come to Vlodrop and sit with Mahesh whenever I wanted to. At that time I knew that Mahesh had many tens of millions of dollars, the money he needed to create a 10,000 group. He was talking about building big buildings, buying airlines, etc. etc. I said, Maharishi, since you have the money and supposedly you have enough pundits, why don't you create a 10,000 group in India and then the world will experience peace and the TM movement will gain great support of the laws of nature and our other activities will work out. Mahesh looked at me like I was crazy and said Earl, if we created the group then we don't know if it would create world peace or not. We would have to have the group and then see what the effect it has. Earl Kaplans Letter 04/16/2004 Both Earl and Maharishi refer to creating world peace not wether the the world would support it finacially after the fact. My recollection of the letter is different than what is now displayed. Perhaps my recollection is wrong or perhaps that is tidied up from his original comments. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
What is really odd and funny, if not delusional, is that we are asked to suspend disbelief and support the notion that Jim who has such poor comprehension skills, and who regularly makes cognitive errors, is able to clearly interpret his experiences, and self-proclaim himself as in BC. As posters, and classic commentators, have pointed out is that misinterpreation of initial or minor experiences can be incorrectly interpreted as high / highest states (such hierarchies continue to make me laugh -- but for the sake of discussion ...). For example, Rick made an articulate comment on this yesterday. [Apparently,] Avoiding this pitfall, is amongst the reasons i) development of a clear intellect -- and, ii) the confirmation of a teacher, an unbiased objective sourse -- are called for in various traditions, classic literature -- and the TMO -- before proclaimming enlightenment. Some traditions, tibetian buddhism apparently, think proclamation of ones state, even with such clear intellect and teacher confirmation, is rather silly and even harmful. That someone stumbling around, barley able to comprehend and reference what they have read with any accuracy, hardly fits the profile of one qualified for self-proclamation. But anything is possible. If wearing the crown of TMO/MMY style of enlightenment is really important for someone (odd and funny that it would be) then go to the domes and get your long sought and cherished confirmation. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: snip All yours and others apparent desire to proclaim their awakenings as the same as MMY/TMO enlightenment is quite odd. Just pronounce what ever awakening one wants. Other than those that have requirements that one doesn't meet. And as long as someone's definition or proclamation of enlightenment doesn't fit your definition of what it should be, you are 'SAFE'. Boy, Jim, either you aren't getting what new morning is saying AT ALL, or you feel you're entitled to ignore it completely and substitute a completely different version of your own devising. What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. He's not saying there is no other style of enlightenment, or that if you don't meet the MMY criteria you aren't enlightened. But that's how you seem to be interpreting what he writes, for no good reason that I can see. Agreed Judy. Its rather sad the pattern: Jim has learned to parrot a particular catechism -- which has a heavy Tom/Rory flavor, IMO -- but has no clue as to how to apply it in the real world. Consistent with your points, the catechism points bear little or no relvance or correspondence to what I have written. Jim's cognitive disabilities, noted periodically over the past 6 months, contine to unravel. His responses to what he has read reflect near zero reading comprehension skills. Based on his perfomances here, given a paragraph or two, and asked to summarize or answer questions about what he has read (as is commonly done on achievement and skill level tests), he would fail miserably. For a so-called liberated, to be so over-shodowed with rote talking points that even the smallest stimulus triggers them -- while similtaneously the trigger apparently also overrides or shuts down rational facilities, is ironic. And its sad to see the diminishment of any human being. Yet from 5000 feet, as characture of bliss-ninny delusions -- its amusing. He is hardly a walking advertisment for liberation. More an advertisment for the possible dangers of sustained practice of neuro-physiological techniques for self-development. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My recollection of the letter is different than what is now displayed. Perhaps my recollection is wrong or perhaps that is tidied up from his original comments. With the vastly improved search function, you should have no problem finding it in the FFL archives as it was originally posted. It may have also been posted to a.m.t around the same time. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pray tell, do we or is there a consensus on MMY style enlightenment? Clearly there is a concensus on what the TMO and MMY consider enlightenment by the one person who counts: MMY. And probably a clear concensus among TMO administrators and researchers. My sole point is that it is the perogative for MMY and the TMO to define, list manifest attributes of, and confirm TMO/MMY style enlightenemnt however they deem appropriate. For someone to claim TMO/MMY style enlightenment without such TMO / and or MMY confirmation is fraud. Its like selling a watch as a Rolex when its not. (Not to imply a bias that TM/MMY enlightenemt is superior.) Or its like someone claiming to be a board ceertified psychoanalyst when the have not passed the requirments set by the board authorized to give that title. I fail to see why this is a hard concept for some to comprehend. Peter, whether there is a concensus about what TMO / MMY style enlightenment on this list, amongst your peers or network, is interesting -- but irrelevant as far as confirming someones TMO / MMY style enlightenment. That is the TMO and MMY's sole perogative. I've always seen it as MMY giving us a conceptual tool kit so one doesn't have a heart attack when the domain of Realization is breached and most of the tools fall out of the toolbox. OK. fine. That does not in any way effect the above stated perogative and right of the TMO to define, list manifest attributes of, and confirm TMO/MMY style enlightenemnt how ever it deems appropriate. Since there is a lot of extra stuff floating in peoples mind, that when reading posts, in their minds appear to glob on and distort in their minds what a poster says. They read a post with assumptions about what the poster means, not what he/she is actually saying. Let me be clear. The above statements do NOT translate, imply, infer or mean any of the following statments (that some have oddly seen in my posts): - No one is enlightened. - MMY/ TMO style of enlightenement is superior to other awakenings, enlightenments or spiritual development - No other enlightenments or awakenings exist - MMY/ TMO style of enlightenement is different from all others. (It may be, or may not be. It clearly is different from some -- given that MMY requires clear sidhis for his confirmation of TMO / MMY style of enlightenment.) - That i am dismising the proclaimed enlightenment of others or claiming all such claimants are phonies. - that I am ridiculing those that claim some awakening or enlightenment based on thier own criteria or another teachers (This latter point however does not imply that I blindly buy into any and all claims -- particularly if there is a strong disconnet between claimed attributes and thier activity.) Again the above list of points CANNOT be found, implied or properly inferred from my primary points in the first part of this post. My sole point, oddly, yet apparently incomprehnsible to some, is that: MMY and the TMO have the perogative and right to define, list manifest attributes of, and confirm TMO/MMY style enlightenemnt however they deem appropriate. For someone to claim TMO/MMY style enlightenemnt without such TMO/MMY confirmation is fradulant. And sad. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is really odd and funny, if not delusional, is that we are asked to suspend disbelief and support the notion that Jim who has such poor comprehension skills, and who regularly makes cognitive errors, is able to clearly interpret his experiences, and self-proclaim himself as in BC. Speaking of comprehension and delusion, who is asking you to suspend disbelief, etc. and accept anything I say? Another foolish game you play. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: My recollection of the letter is different than what is now displayed. Perhaps my recollection is wrong or perhaps that is tidied up from his original comments. With the vastly improved search function, you should have no problem finding it in the FFL archives as it was originally posted. It may have also been posted to a.m.t around the same time. I can't ind an earlier version than the one posted recently. I must have misread. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/21/06 6:38 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote: Has MMY claimed full UC for himself? I once heard a second- hand comment by him: He never claimed to be in any higher state of consciousness, but he implied that he had attained them all, by speaking on them authoritatively. I myself wouldn't practise a technique of self-development in which the figurehead wasn't in at least the highest attainable state. It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better not do TM then... You mean like you? BTW, my experience has been that my ability to know/cognize/perceive/whatever MMY's state of consciousness has little to do with the effects of TM. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Something other than the Beacon book? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: My recollection of the letter is different than what is now displayed. Perhaps my recollection is wrong or perhaps that is tidied up from his original comments. With the vastly improved search function, you should have no problem finding it in the FFL archives as it was originally posted. It may have also been posted to a.m.t around the same time. I can't ind an earlier version than the one posted recently. I must have misread. Someone here posted recently that there had been a draft version in circulation that was cleaned up considerably in what became the final version. Whether the draft version has ever been posted here or on alt.m.t or some other TM-related group is another question entirely. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: My prediction is that anyone who gets on the enlightened list will be banned from future courses. MMY's organization is not built for people who claim to have reached the goal. The only one beard in the room rule still applies. Am I wrong? That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish physiological studies on people who reported witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step forward... Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s expectations. Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a measurable, dualistic phenomenon? From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS, complete with physiological styles of functioning. I'm curious, is there any observation of people losing their enlightened brainwave pattern, when they get old and senile, and hence also having lost their TMO style enlightenment. People's brainfuctioning generally deteriorate, when they get old. MMY's behavior has for some time shown clear signs of his deteroriating brainfunctioning (which is of course natural considering his respectably high age). Irmeli To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: What is really odd and funny, if not delusional, is that we are asked to suspend disbelief and support the notion that Jim who has such poor comprehension skills, and who regularly makes cognitive errors, is able to clearly interpret his experiences, and self-proclaim himself as in BC. Speaking of comprehension and delusion, who is asking you to suspend disbelief, etc. and accept anything I say? Another foolish game you play. OK. Fair enough. I thought you had earlier proclaimed to be in BC (as defined by MMY). Is that an incorrect memory? Are you claiming that you do not beleive you are in BC (as defined by MMY)? If you don't deny it, its hardly a huge gaff to state we are asked to believe Regardless, if you did not explicity claim to be in BC (as defined by MMY) you have implied it, IMO, by making strong definitive statements about it. I asked you in a post a day or so ago, paraphrasing Is this your personal experience (of BC), or are you simply speculating or remembering something from your SCI or other course? You danced around that, coyly IMO, which to me further supported the implication of your belief. Any humble person not prolaiming BC would have clarified the point right away. So to be most accurate, I should have said, we are asked to believe, BY IMPLICATION [insertion in caps] Sorry such a minor ommission disturbed your world. I do note that I have raised a number of substantive points about your explicit or implied claims of being in BC and/or MMY/TMO style enlightenment, and you have been unable or unwilling to address them. Rather you solely focussed on minor points, diversions or ad honimen fallacies. I assume this represents the most cogent case you can make regarding my points. If not, I will relist them if you like so yuo can respond. Or if you do not claim to be in some TMO/MMY style of enlightenemnt, simple state so, please correct my misunderstanding or false inference. By the way, terming this a game, isn't a particularly strong rebuttal. Perhaps such a rebuttal is substantive in your mind, but its not in the real world. And its odd you see this as a game -- but perhaps such a percption supports the notion that this is all make believe for you. If you did not explicity state it. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 jyouells@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: snip Again, which state? And, while perhaps I misremember the original letter, my recollection is that Kaplan reported MMY as saying there is no evidence that what you say would happen would happen. Kaplan took this to be referring to the ME. I took it to be referring to financial support from a grateful world... snip This version of my story really starts about three years ago. I was sitting with Maharishi privately, because at the time I had an open invitation to come to Vlodrop and sit with Mahesh whenever I wanted to. At that time I knew that Mahesh had many tens of millions of dollars, the money he needed to create a 10,000 group. He was talking about building big buildings, buying airlines, etc. etc. I said, Maharishi, since you have the money and supposedly you have enough pundits, why don't you create a 10,000 group in India and then the world will experience peace and the TM movement will gain great support of the laws of nature and our other activities will work out. Mahesh looked at me like I was crazy and said Earl, if we created the group then we don't know if it would create world peace or not. We would have to have the group and then see what the effect it has. Earl Kaplans Letter 04/16/2004 Both Earl and Maharishi refer to creating world peace not wether the the world would support it finacially after the fact. In that version of the letter. There has apparently been more than one, as reported here; supposedly a draft got into circulation before Kaplan thought it was ready. Above Lawson refers to the original version. Does he mean the draft, the first version that was circulated? If so, and if the quote Lawson remembers is accurate, Kaplan may have revised it in the later version to make what *he* understood MMY to be saying more explicit. Editorial analysis: The version you quote seems incomplete somehow. It's not clear why MMY would make such a statement and consider the matter closed. The natural response would be, So why not create the group and see what happens? But that question isn't asked. In the version Lawson cites, MMY's comment seems to complete the exchange, in the context of the various money-making endeavors they were talking about. Kaplan suggests that instead of doing all this other stuff to support the movement, MMY should create the pundit group, and that in itself will be all that is needed to keep the movement going indefinitely because *everybody* would then support the movement. But, in Lawson's verison, MMY responds that there's no evidence it would have that effect, i.e., that everyone would support the movement, implying that the TMO needs to establish solid financial foundation first before blowing the movement's existing resources on establishing the group. Once that's accomplished, then the group can be established and it won't matter whether anyone else supports the movement. Obviously we'd need to find the original draft version and see if Lawson's memory of how MMY is quoted is accurate. But if it is, that version seems to me to make more sense just in terms of the conversation itself. It would also be consistent with everything else MMY has been doing and saying. One other point: at the time of this conversation, there had been several large-scale tests of the Maharishi Effect, with published studies of the purportedly positive results (in particular the Jerusalem and D.C. gatherings). MMY clearly felt the ME had been documented (whether or not it had been), but there wasn't the outpouring of support from the world that he had initially expected. So in that context as well, the quote Lawson remembers makes more sense: from MMY's perspective, there *was* evidence that the ME worked, but there was no evidence that the world would recognize it and decide to support the movement. I probably have the original version that was posted here. I'll look. My recollection is that the implication of that version is the same. But I'll check to see if I have it. Or it's in the archive of this group. JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences on 8/22/06 9:11 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What he's saying makes perfect sense on its face; it's virtually a truism: to claim MMY-style enlightenment (not new morning's own definition), you need to meet the criteria MMY has set for it. Did I ever say that the people I was referring to were claiming MMY-style enlightenment? Seems to me they are saying theyve woken up, and are happy to use any terminology that helps to describe their experience. MMYs often does, and they have that background, so they often use it. But just as often, they use other terminology if its more suitable. __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences on 8/22/06 12:34 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I probably have the original version that was posted here. I'll look. My recollection is that the implication of that version is the same. But I'll check to see if I have it. Or it's in the archive of this group. Its in the files section. __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. All the mantras I teach in TM are the names of Hindu gods and I don't care what Alan Dershowitz or the Superior Court of New Jersey says about it! -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, March 7, 1966. That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/21/06 3:11 PM, sparaig at sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: My prediction is that anyone who gets on the enlightened list will be banned from future courses. MMY's organization is not built for people who claim to have reached the goal. The only one beard in the room rule still applies. Am I wrong? That's why Fred Travis has been able to publish physiological studies on people who reported witnessing 24/7 for years on end: they're afraid to step forward... Fred was very condescending and dismissive of an Awake friend of mine whose brain waves didn¹t happen to match Fred¹s expectations. Where did TMO folks get the idea that being awake/enlightened is a measurable, dualistic phenomenon? From the idea that enlightened states of consciousness are STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS, complete with physiological styles of functioning. I'm curious, is there any observation of people losing their enlightened brainwave pattern, when they get old and senile, and hence also having lost their TMO style enlightenment. People's brainfuctioning generally deteriorate, when they get old. MMY's behavior has for some time shown clear signs of his deteroriating brainfunctioning (which is of course natural considering his respectably high age). Irmeli Actually, brain-functioning doesn't deteriorate all that much just because you get old, and MMY doesn't show any signs of a stroke that I can see. Would you ask if people lose the ability to sleep or dream just because they got old? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty All Mighty Power sounds like a rough translation of Ishvara (sp) from Patanjali. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. All the mantras I teach in TM are the names of Hindu gods and I don't care what Alan Dershowitz or the Superior Court of New Jersey says about it! -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, March 7, 1966. LOL. As you know, the court case was in the mid-70's... That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty Grad students studying ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) should now tune in to observe Judy Stein's next 40 posts in which she will demonstrate that Maharishi did NOT mean in that quote that TM mantras are the names of gods. And then she will call you a liar. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: All the mantras I teach in TM are the names of Hindu gods and I don't care what Alan Dershowitz or the Superior Court of New Jersey says about it! -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, March 7, 1966. LOL. As you know, the court case was in the mid-70's... Obviously and clearly, MMY knew the future in detail in 1966. :) As would be expected of a TMO / enlightened one -- clear experience of the sidhis. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning no_reply@ wrote: What is really odd and funny, if not delusional, is that we are asked to suspend disbelief and support the notion that Jim who has such poor comprehension skills, and who regularly makes cognitive errors, is able to clearly interpret his experiences, and self-proclaim himself as in BC. Speaking of comprehension and delusion, who is asking you to suspend disbelief, etc. and accept anything I say? Another foolish game you play. OK. Fair enough. I thought you had earlier proclaimed to be in BC (as defined by MMY). Is that an incorrect memory? Are you claiming that you do not beleive you are in BC (as defined by MMY)? If you don't deny it, its hardly a huge gaff to state we are asked to believe Regardless, if you did not explicity claim to be in BC (as defined by MMY) you have implied it, IMO, by making strong definitive statements about it. Sorry, I am not playing this game with you. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I am not playing this game with you. OK then. You claimed a point I made was inaccurate. I sought clarificaion. You obsfucated and punted as usual. (Usually a sign of no substantive points to make) As I said earlier, but unheeded by you, your incorrect casting, as a game, the discussions of serious issues (false claims of enlightenment, cognitive errors, misinterpretation of experiences) appears to further reflect the emptiness of your claims. If you don't like games, perhaps you can cease your apparently delusional claims (explicit or implicit) of being in MMY/TMO BC and your imaginary powers that you feel stem from that. The earlier, non-refuted, point stands (with minor edits): What is really odd and funny, if not delusional, is that we are asked, by implication, to suspend disbelief and support the notion, that Jim who has such poor comprehension skills, and who regularly makes cognitive errors, is able to clearly interpret his experiences, and self-proclaim himself as in BC. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences on 8/22/06 1:56 PM, new.morning at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is really odd and funny, if not delusional, is that we are asked, by implication, to suspend disbelief and support the notion, that Jim who has such poor comprehension skills, and who regularly makes cognitive errors, is able to clearly interpret his experiences, and self-proclaim himself as in BC. Remember MMYs term babbling saint? Im not agreeing that Jim doesnt have good communication skills, but even if he didnt that wouldnt necessarily say anything about his level of consciousness. __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin jflanegi@ wrote: Sorry, I am not playing this game with you. OK then. You claimed a point I made was inaccurate. I sought clarificaion. You obsfucated and punted as usual. (Usually a sign of no substantive points to make) As I said earlier, but unheeded by you, your incorrect casting, as a game, the discussions of serious issues (false claims of enlightenment, cognitive errors, misinterpretation of experiences) appears to further reflect the emptiness of your claims. If you don't like games, perhaps you can cease your apparently delusional claims (explicit or implicit) of being in MMY/TMO BC and your imaginary powers that you feel stem from that. The earlier, non-refuted, point stands (with minor edits): What is really odd and funny, if not delusional, is that we are asked, by implication, to suspend disbelief and support the notion, that Jim who has such poor comprehension skills, and who regularly makes cognitive errors, is able to clearly interpret his experiences, and self-proclaim himself as in BC. Where on earth do you get this idea that when someone posts something they are asking by implication that it be supported by those on this board? I am stupified that you think that. I've always just seen any of the posts here as points of view offered up as the poster's truth of the moment, but not necessarily anyone else's. You can claim anything you want about me or yourself and I am free to do the same, and if it does or doesn't fit into your neat little logical boxes, tough tiddly winks, bro. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read what he writes. He is completely absolutely 100% incorrect to distinguish this fanciful 'MMY/TMO enlightenment' or 'MMY-style enlightenment' from other modes or styles of enlightenment. Only a mind in bondage would even concieve of such an abstraction. Enlightenment is enlightenment is enlightenment. Each of us experiences It differently, but It is the same thing. There is no such thing as 'MMY/TMO style enlightenment' vs other styles of enlightenment. The idea is completely incorrect and rediculous! It is a stupid game he plays, who's only object is to disavow his own self-dissolution. Does exhibiting or not exhibiting particular subtle dualistic phenomena qualify as experiencing It differently? What I see as the defining core of awakening is a shift in identity from the limited I/me to pure Being, the conscious nature, or however you choose to describe that I AM THATness. However, one can realize that shift in identity without being able to perform esoteric parlor tricks. Claiming that one is not awake unless he's witnessing 24/7 is absurd; it's like claiming that one is not awake unless he can make steam rise off ice-water soaked sheets wrapped around the body. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does exhibiting or not exhibiting particular subtle dualistic phenomena qualify as experiencing It differently? Hi, I was referring to an awakened person's experience, not necessarily their observed presence. Meaning that as each of us have distinct nervous systems, there are different flavors of awakening we each experience, though the core experience that you describe below is perfectly the same for all awakened souls. What I see as the defining core of awakening is a shift in identity from the limited I/me to pure Being, the conscious nature, or however you choose to describe that I AM THATness. However, one can realize that shift in identity without being able to perform esoteric parlor tricks. Claiming that one is not awake unless he's witnessing 24/7 is absurd; it's like claiming that one is not awake unless he can make steam rise off ice-water soaked sheets wrapped around the body. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Paul Mason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In 'Meditation: easy system propounded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi' (c1959) there is to be found a series of questions which includes the following: Q. How does meditation improve the fortune of a man? A. Our system of meditation involves the All Mighty Power. We take the 'MANTRA' of some God according to our faith and meditate on that. The power of the 'MANTRA' brings to us the Almighty Thanks, Paul. 'Zat the publication you were referring to, Shemp? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. That's what folks claim he said in his Beacon Light address too, but he didn't. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: snip It's kinda the same answer I give when people ask me whether the mantras used in TM are the names of gods: I wouldn't want to practise a meditation that DIDN'T use mantras that were the names of gods Better quit practicing TM, then, and find one that does. I've got an SRM book from about 1966 -- pre Beatles -- that has MMY say exactly that. Quote, please. All the mantras I teach in TM are the names of Hindu gods and I don't care what Alan Dershowitz or the Superior Court of New Jersey says about it! -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, March 7, 1966. So I gather you got no quote, right? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 8/22/06 12:34 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I probably have the original version that was posted here. I'll look. My recollection is that the implication of that version is the same. But I'll check to see if I have it. Or it's in the archive of this group. It¹s in the files section. That's the one I posted from. That's the earliest then ? JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig sparaig@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ wrote: All the mantras I teach in TM are the names of Hindu gods and I don't care what Alan Dershowitz or the Superior Court of New Jersey says about it! -- Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, March 7, 1966. LOL. As you know, the court case was in the mid-70's... Obviously and clearly, MMY knew the future in detail in 1966. :) As would be expected of a TMO / enlightened one -- clear experience of the sidhis. Now, that's FUNNY! JohnY To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jyouells2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer groups@ wrote: on 8/22/06 12:34 PM, jyouells2000 at jyouells@ wrote: I probably have the original version that was posted here. I'll look. My recollection is that the implication of that version is the same. But I'll check to see if I have it. Or it's in the archive of this group. It¹s in the files section. That's the one I posted from. That's the earliest then ? I think he means that's the original version that was posted here. Whether that's the early draft version others have mentioned is another question. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences
Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Question on suitability of experiences on 8/22/06 3:04 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 8/22/06 12:34 PM, jyouells2000 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I probably have the original version that was posted here. I'll look. My recollection is that the implication of that version is the same. But I'll check to see if I have it. Or it's in the archive of this group. Its in the files section. That's the one I posted from. That's the earliest then ? I believe so. __._,_.___ To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. __,_._,___
