Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Jose Quesada]

Ok, I added a ticket with this idea, and pointed to this thread for
clarification.
Best,
-Jose

Jose Quesada, PhD.
Max Planck Institute,
Center for Adaptive Behavior and Cognition,
Berlin
http://www.josequesada.name/
http://twitter.com/Quesada


On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Alan L Tyree  wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 19:28:47 +0200
> Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 04/15/2010 12:07 PM, Typhoon wrote:
> > >>> If it isn't necessary, I don't think that LyX should lock into one
> > >>> system.
> > >>
> > >> While it is good to support a wide choice of systems for version
> > >> control, for a "portable LyX document" *one* format is the right
> > >> way.
> > >
> > > I see the argument, and you may be right. BUT when I wanted to
> > > collaborate with a colleague, they knew how to use Bazaar, so we
> > > went that way. I think it would have been hard to get them to use
> > > something else.
> >
> > I think you are missing something and it's probably my fault. The
> > idea of a portable document using a git repo is somewhat
> > perpendicular to how many DVCS systems are supported by LyX. The idea
> > behind a "portable LyX document" is that the user doesn't know which
> > SCM he uses as LyX would take care of everything. So having your
> > coauthor fluent in bazar rather than git is irrelevant.
>
> Hi Abdel,
>
> You're right, I was confusing two separate issues. Not, I think, your
> fault at all.
>
> And, whatever is used, the idea of a VC system as the portable format
> seems brilliant.
>
> Thanks for cleaning the fuzz out of my brain :-).
>
> Cheers,
> Alan
>
> >
> > > As I said before, I don't know what the technical problems are in
> > > implementing this in LyX. However, if it is possible to support more
> > > than one DVCS, then I think it should be kept in mind. The
> > > "portable" in "portable LyX document" is a very relative thing. It
> > > depends almost entirely on who you want to "port" it to.
> > >
> > > I suppose that if everything is bundled with LyX, then the choice is
> > > made and it doesn't matter. Is that a sensible solution?
> > >
> > > In the end, I suppose that it may be a technical question/solution
> > > and I am absolutely unqualified to speak to that. But I hope that
> > > people who are qualified will at least consider keeping the options
> > > open.
> >
> > Sure, don't worry :-)
> >
> > Abdel.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
> Tel:  04 2748 6206
>
>

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Alan L Tyree]

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 19:28:47 +0200
Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:

> 
> 
> On 04/15/2010 12:07 PM, Typhoon wrote:
> >>> If it isn't necessary, I don't think that LyX should lock into one
> >>> system.
> >>
> >> While it is good to support a wide choice of systems for version
> >> control, for a "portable LyX document" *one* format is the right
> >> way.
> >
> > I see the argument, and you may be right. BUT when I wanted to
> > collaborate with a colleague, they knew how to use Bazaar, so we
> > went that way. I think it would have been hard to get them to use
> > something else.
> 
> I think you are missing something and it's probably my fault. The
> idea of a portable document using a git repo is somewhat
> perpendicular to how many DVCS systems are supported by LyX. The idea
> behind a "portable LyX document" is that the user doesn't know which
> SCM he uses as LyX would take care of everything. So having your
> coauthor fluent in bazar rather than git is irrelevant.

Hi Abdel,

You're right, I was confusing two separate issues. Not, I think, your
fault at all. 

And, whatever is used, the idea of a VC system as the portable format
seems brilliant.

Thanks for cleaning the fuzz out of my brain :-).

Cheers,
Alan

> 
> > As I said before, I don't know what the technical problems are in
> > implementing this in LyX. However, if it is possible to support more
> > than one DVCS, then I think it should be kept in mind. The
> > "portable" in "portable LyX document" is a very relative thing. It
> > depends almost entirely on who you want to "port" it to.
> >
> > I suppose that if everything is bundled with LyX, then the choice is
> > made and it doesn't matter. Is that a sensible solution?
> >
> > In the end, I suppose that it may be a technical question/solution
> > and I am absolutely unqualified to speak to that. But I hope that
> > people who are qualified will at least consider keeping the options
> > open.
> 
> Sure, don't worry :-)
> 
> Abdel.
> 
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Abdelrazak Younes]

On 04/15/2010 12:07 PM, Typhoon wrote:

If it isn't necessary, I don't think that LyX should lock into one
system.


While it is good to support a wide choice of systems for version
control, for a "portable LyX document" *one* format is the right way.


I see the argument, and you may be right. BUT when I wanted to
collaborate with a colleague, they knew how to use Bazaar, so we went
that way. I think it would have been hard to get them to use something
else.


I think you are missing something and it's probably my fault. The idea 
of a portable document using a git repo is somewhat perpendicular to how 
many DVCS systems are supported by LyX. The idea behind a "portable LyX 
document" is that the user doesn't know which SCM he uses as LyX would 
take care of everything. So having your coauthor fluent in bazar rather 
than git is irrelevant.



As I said before, I don't know what the technical problems are in
implementing this in LyX. However, if it is possible to support more
than one DVCS, then I think it should be kept in mind. The "portable"
in "portable LyX document" is a very relative thing. It depends almost
entirely on who you want to "port" it to.

I suppose that if everything is bundled with LyX, then the choice is
made and it doesn't matter. Is that a sensible solution?

In the end, I suppose that it may be a technical question/solution and
I am absolutely unqualified to speak to that. But I hope that people
who are qualified will at least consider keeping the options open.


Sure, don't worry :-)

Abdel.

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Typhoon]

On Thu, 15 Apr 2010 07:35:46 + (UTC)
Guenter Milde  wrote:

> On 2010-04-14, Typhoon wrote:
> > On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:56:10 +0200
> > Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:
> >> On 04/14/2010 06:42 PM, Jose Quesada wrote:
> 
> >> > Great post Abdel.
> >> > The idea of sharing repos as a portable document format is great.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> > I don't know what the technical challenges might be, but do we have
> > to choose? Emacs supports RCS, CVS, bazaar, mercurial and git (at
> > least - there may be others). Let the user choose. 
> 
> Someone has to do the work. So (at least in the beginning) it is the
> developer who chooses.  (With Emacs (or e.g. the Jed editor), every
> user can write/provide/install additional modes. This flexibility is
> the core of Emacs' power.)
> 
> 
> > If it isn't necessary, I don't think that LyX should lock into one
> > system. 
> 
> While it is good to support a wide choice of systems for version
> control, for a "portable LyX document" *one* format is the right way.

I see the argument, and you may be right. BUT when I wanted to
collaborate with a colleague, they knew how to use Bazaar, so we went
that way. I think it would have been hard to get them to use something
else.

As I said before, I don't know what the technical problems are in
implementing this in LyX. However, if it is possible to support more
than one DVCS, then I think it should be kept in mind. The "portable"
in "portable LyX document" is a very relative thing. It depends almost
entirely on who you want to "port" it to. 

I suppose that if everything is bundled with LyX, then the choice is
made and it doesn't matter. Is that a sensible solution?

In the end, I suppose that it may be a technical question/solution and
I am absolutely unqualified to speak to that. But I hope that people
who are qualified will at least consider keeping the options open.

Cheers,
Alan


> 
> 
> Günter
> 
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Guenter Milde]

On 2010-04-14, Typhoon wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:56:10 +0200
> Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:
>> On 04/14/2010 06:42 PM, Jose Quesada wrote:

>> > Great post Abdel.
>> > The idea of sharing repos as a portable document format is great.

Indeed.

> I don't know what the technical challenges might be, but do we have to
> choose? Emacs supports RCS, CVS, bazaar, mercurial and git (at least -
> there may be others). Let the user choose. 

Someone has to do the work. So (at least in the beginning) it is the
developer who chooses.  (With Emacs (or e.g. the Jed editor), every user
can write/provide/install additional modes. This flexibility is the core
of Emacs' power.)


> If it isn't necessary, I don't think that LyX should lock into one
> system. 

While it is good to support a wide choice of systems for version control,
for a "portable LyX document" *one* format is the right way.


Günter

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Guenter Milde]

On 2010-04-14, Pavel Sanda wrote:
> Alan Tyree wrote:

>> RCS is what I used for a long time before discovering the distributed
>> version control systems. When using RCS you need either 1) a central
>> server or 2) some system (like rsync) to keep two computers "on the
>> same page"

> the point was not to propose rcs for the colaboration... but for
> private usage (and unless you have some bigger project with tons of
> external material) i find rcs to be very good and in some sense more
> convenient than proposed git...

I know RCS and even used it at some stage because it is (or was)
supported by LyX. However, 

* I don't like the additional files distributed over my file system

* I have some external material (not tons, but 10...100 scripts
  generating the plots I need in my work).
  
* I use git for other projects too.  

Günter

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Jose Quesada]

For those looking for private repos:
blog.assembla.com/assemblablog/tabid/12618/bid/12217/April-14-Repo-Blitz-Free-unlimited-SVN-and-GIT-and-much-more.aspx

good
move assembla. this is a good move:
"We are now offering free, privately permissioned, encryption enabled,
unlimited user, full gigabyte, commercial quality subversion and git
repositories, and that is just the beginning."

beats github (zero private repos for free) and bitbucket (one)

Best,
-Jose

Jose Quesada, PhD.
Max Planck Institute,
Center for Adaptive Behavior and Cognition,
Berlin
http://www.josequesada.name/
http://twitter.com/Quesada


On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Typhoon  wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:56:10 +0200
> Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:
>
> > On 04/14/2010 06:42 PM, Jose Quesada wrote:
> > > Great post Abdel.
> > >
> > > The idea of sharing repos as a portable document format is great.
> > > The only issue I have with git is that it depends on a mixture of
> > > C, shell and perl scripts that make it hardly portable. But I could
> > > be wrong.
> >
> > For what we need, only the compiled c program is required. But in any
> > case msysgit runs pretty fine under Windows and git has even been
> > ported to MSVC nowadays.
> >
> > > Assuming a working python on the system is not that bad (OSX, *BSDs
> > > and linuxes most have them). And python is already a requirement
> > > for LyX right? So my vote goes to mercurial.
> >
> > We are not at the voting step just now, this is all vaporware we are
> > talking about ;-)
> >
> > AFAIK mercurial also rely on some compiled c-code but I can be wrong.
> >
> > In any case, the goal would be to rely on an installed git or
> > mercurial, not to redistribute them I guess. Under Windows,
> > distributing git or mercurial would just be a packaging issue,
> > nothing else.
>
> I don't know what the technical challenges might be, but do we have to
> choose? Emacs supports RCS, CVS, bazaar, mercurial and git (at least -
> there may be others). Let the user choose. The LyX side of it doesn't
> need to do everything. Again using Emacs as the model, it allows
> commits and reversions, shows annotations and other forms of history,
> takes snapshots -- all through a common interface.
>
> If it isn't necessary, I don't think that LyX should lock into one
> system. Thinking particularly of collaboration, most of our
> collaborators are less flexible and less informed than the members of
> this list.
>
> Cheers,
> Alan
>
> >
> > Abdel.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
> Tel:  04 2748 6206
>
>

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Typhoon]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:56:10 +0200
Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:

> On 04/14/2010 06:42 PM, Jose Quesada wrote:
> > Great post Abdel.
> >
> > The idea of sharing repos as a portable document format is great.
> > The only issue I have with git is that it depends on a mixture of
> > C, shell and perl scripts that make it hardly portable. But I could
> > be wrong.
> 
> For what we need, only the compiled c program is required. But in any 
> case msysgit runs pretty fine under Windows and git has even been
> ported to MSVC nowadays.
> 
> > Assuming a working python on the system is not that bad (OSX, *BSDs 
> > and linuxes most have them). And python is already a requirement
> > for LyX right? So my vote goes to mercurial.
> 
> We are not at the voting step just now, this is all vaporware we are 
> talking about ;-)
> 
> AFAIK mercurial also rely on some compiled c-code but I can be wrong.
> 
> In any case, the goal would be to rely on an installed git or
> mercurial, not to redistribute them I guess. Under Windows,
> distributing git or mercurial would just be a packaging issue,
> nothing else.

I don't know what the technical challenges might be, but do we have to
choose? Emacs supports RCS, CVS, bazaar, mercurial and git (at least -
there may be others). Let the user choose. The LyX side of it doesn't
need to do everything. Again using Emacs as the model, it allows
commits and reversions, shows annotations and other forms of history,
takes snapshots -- all through a common interface.

If it isn't necessary, I don't think that LyX should lock into one
system. Thinking particularly of collaboration, most of our
collaborators are less flexible and less informed than the members of
this list.

Cheers,
Alan

> 
> Abdel.
> 
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Abdelrazak Younes]

On 04/14/2010 06:42 PM, Jose Quesada wrote:

Great post Abdel.

The idea of sharing repos as a portable document format is great. The 
only issue I have with git is that it depends on a mixture of C, shell 
and perl scripts that make it hardly portable. But I could be wrong.


For what we need, only the compiled c program is required. But in any 
case msysgit runs pretty fine under Windows and git has even been ported 
to MSVC nowadays.


Assuming a working python on the system is not that bad (OSX, *BSDs 
and linuxes most have them). And python is already a requirement for 
LyX right? So my vote goes to mercurial.


We are not at the voting step just now, this is all vaporware we are 
talking about ;-)


AFAIK mercurial also rely on some compiled c-code but I can be wrong.

In any case, the goal would be to rely on an installed git or mercurial, 
not to redistribute them I guess. Under Windows, distributing git or 
mercurial would just be a packaging issue, nothing else.


Abdel.

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Jose Quesada]

Great post Abdel.

The idea of sharing repos as a portable document format is great. The only
issue I have with git is that it depends on a mixture of C, shell and perl
scripts that make it hardly portable. But I could be wrong. Assuming a
working python on the system is not that bad (OSX, *BSDs and linuxes most
have them). And python is already a requirement for LyX right? So my vote
goes to mercurial.
Best,
-Jose

Jose Quesada, PhD.
Max Planck Institute,
Center for Adaptive Behavior and Cognition,
Berlin
http://www.josequesada.name/
http://twitter.com/Quesada


On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Abdelrazak Younes  wrote:

> On 04/13/2010 04:43 PM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
>
>> rgheck wrote:
>>
>>> It'd be nice to hear precisely what people would want that version
>>> control does not provide. I have a hard time myself seeing why it is any
>>> more than an "isn't that cool" feature for two people simultaneously to
>>> edit a single document. I.e., fun, but hardly revolutionary as far as
>>> actual productivity goes, at least for the sort of work most LyX users
>>> actually do. There's no doubt that LyXs' VC support could be improved,
>>> and it has been in some significant ways for 2.0, so we'd happily hear
>>> suggestions about that, too.
>>>
>>
>> I also think that VC probably provides all you need for collaboration
>> (although a closer integration of VC, comparision and CT would be cool).
>>
>> For me, a main obstacle is the lack of a suitable web service. My Faculty
>> does
>> not provide svn or other VC repositories, and I did not find a suitable
>> service on the web yet, where I can savely store my data in such a way
>> that
>> only selected people can access it. But maybe I just didn't search long
>> enough.
>>
>
> You don't need it!
>
> git (or any distributed scm) can do it for you. You can create a git repo
> for one specific LyX document (including all children and graphics) and use
> that as the transport medium. If you can clone over the web then fine (git
> supports a number of protocols icluding http); if not you can just as well
> send either the 'git diff' output or the full git repo by mail. At the other
> end, your co-writer would merge your diff or a local copy of your git repo
> and merge it with his own git repo.
>
> As I have once outlined in the devel list, it should be possible to
> streamline the entire process within LyX. This would become the often
> requested portable LyX format, except that this file would just be a git
> repo. This way, you would have access immediately to all elements of your
> documents (including graphics) but also to the full history of the document.
> This can of collaboration tool would be unbeatable if you ask me. Now, we
> just need to find someone who has the time and energy to implement this :-)
>
> Abdel.
>
>

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Abdelrazak Younes]

On 04/13/2010 04:43 PM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

rgheck wrote:

It'd be nice to hear precisely what people would want that version
control does not provide. I have a hard time myself seeing why it is any
more than an "isn't that cool" feature for two people simultaneously to
edit a single document. I.e., fun, but hardly revolutionary as far as
actual productivity goes, at least for the sort of work most LyX users
actually do. There's no doubt that LyXs' VC support could be improved,
and it has been in some significant ways for 2.0, so we'd happily hear
suggestions about that, too.


I also think that VC probably provides all you need for collaboration
(although a closer integration of VC, comparision and CT would be cool).

For me, a main obstacle is the lack of a suitable web service. My Faculty does
not provide svn or other VC repositories, and I did not find a suitable
service on the web yet, where I can savely store my data in such a way that
only selected people can access it. But maybe I just didn't search long
enough.


You don't need it!

git (or any distributed scm) can do it for you. You can create a git 
repo for one specific LyX document (including all children and graphics) 
and use that as the transport medium. If you can clone over the web then 
fine (git supports a number of protocols icluding http); if not you can 
just as well send either the 'git diff' output or the full git repo by 
mail. At the other end, your co-writer would merge your diff or a local 
copy of your git repo and merge it with his own git repo.


As I have once outlined in the devel list, it should be possible to 
streamline the entire process within LyX. This would become the often 
requested portable LyX format, except that this file would just be a git 
repo. This way, you would have access immediately to all elements of 
your documents (including graphics) but also to the full history of the 
document. This can of collaboration tool would be unbeatable if you ask 
me. Now, we just need to find someone who has the time and energy to 
implement this :-)


Abdel.

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Pavel Sanda]

Alan Tyree wrote:
> RCS is what I used for a long time before discovering the distributed
> version control systems. When using RCS you need either 1) a central server
> or 2) some system (like rsync) to keep two computers "on the same page"

the point was not to propose rcs for the colaboration... but for private
usage (and unless you have some bigger project with tons of external material)
i find rcs to be very good and in some sense more convenient than proposed
git...

pavel

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Alan Tyree]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Pavel Sanda  wrote:

> Guenter Milde wrote:
> > > What about using a distributed version control system? I use Bazaar to
> > > collaborate with one of my colleagues. We meed every so often to do a
> > > double merge and it works really well. No central server is needed,
> > > although if you have one available then you can use it like svn.
> >
> > I use Git to keep a local VC repository so I strongly favour the option
> > to support distributed version control from LyX.
>
> are you aware of rcs?
>

RCS is what I used for a long time before discovering the distributed
version control systems. When using RCS you need either 1) a central server
or 2) some system (like rsync) to keep two computers "on the same page"

Distributed systems eliminate the need for a central server (although you
can use one if available). They also **greatly** reduce the potential for
accidental overwrites if you are trying to sync two computers.

I used Bazaar because (at least at the time) git didn't play too well with
windows and my collaborator was using Windows. I believe that Mercurial is
as good, and probably git is too if the windows problem has been solved. I
like Bazaar since it is written in Python and will run on a warm toaster if
necessary - but no need to start a religious war here!

Here is a link to the "workflow" of using a DVCS with two users (even if
both of the users are yourself working on a different machine:
http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/bzr.2.1/en/user-guide/index.html

See, in particular, the "Working with peers" section.

I think it's great for collaboration, even when the "collaboration" is with
yourself.

Cheers,
Alan

> pavel
>
>


-- 
Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Pavel Sanda]

Guenter Milde wrote:
> > What about using a distributed version control system? I use Bazaar to
> > collaborate with one of my colleagues. We meed every so often to do a
> > double merge and it works really well. No central server is needed,
> > although if you have one available then you can use it like svn.
> 
> I use Git to keep a local VC repository so I strongly favour the option
> to support distributed version control from LyX.

are you aware of rcs?
pavel

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Guenter Milde]

On 2010-04-13, Typhoon wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:02:23 -0400
> rgheck  wrote:

>> On 04/13/2010 10:43 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
>> > rgheck wrote:

>> > I also think that VC probably provides all you need for
>> > collaboration (although a closer integration of VC, comparision and
>> > CT would be cool).

Also, a version control (VC) system provides at the same time the "time
machine" to keep track of the evolution of your documents.

>> > For me, a main obstacle is the lack of a suitable web service. 

> What about using a distributed version control system? I use Bazaar to
> collaborate with one of my colleagues. We meed every so often to do a
> double merge and it works really well. No central server is needed,
> although if you have one available then you can use it like svn.

I use Git to keep a local VC repository so I strongly favour the option
to support distributed version control from LyX.

Günter

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Typhoon]

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:02:23 -0400
rgheck  wrote:

> On 04/13/2010 10:43 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
> > rgheck wrote:
> >
> >> It'd be nice to hear precisely what people would want that version
> >> control does not provide. I have a hard time myself seeing why it
> >> is any more than an "isn't that cool" feature for two people
> >> simultaneously to edit a single document. I.e., fun, but hardly
> >> revolutionary as far as actual productivity goes, at least for the
> >> sort of work most LyX users actually do. There's no doubt that
> >> LyXs' VC support could be improved, and it has been in some
> >> significant ways for 2.0, so we'd happily hear suggestions about
> >> that, too. 
> > I also think that VC probably provides all you need for
> > collaboration (although a closer integration of VC, comparision and
> > CT would be cool).
> >
> > For me, a main obstacle is the lack of a suitable web service. My
> > Faculty does not provide svn or other VC repositories, and I did
> > not find a suitable service on the web yet, where I can savely
> > store my data in such a way that only selected people can access
> > it. But maybe I just didn't search long enough.
> >
> >
> I looked into some of this a while ago, and there aren't great
> options for the sort of thing we're discussing: I.e., not
> programming, and not open to everyone's eyes. Brown, as it happens,
> does provide such a facility, though I haven't yet found the time
> even to move our website code over there.
> 
> Have you asked the IS people if they'd think about supporting svn on 
> their servers?
> 
> Richard

What about using a distributed version control system? I use Bazaar to
collaborate with one of my colleagues. We meed every so often to do a
double merge and it works really well. No central server is needed,
although if you have one available then you can use it like svn.

I have liked it so much that I also use it between my home machine and
laptop to keep thinks in sync and not accidentally rub out work on one
or the other.

Cheers,
Alan

> 
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyreehttp://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[stefano franchi]

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Luca De Marini
wrote:

> Boys I made a polite question because I can offer a personalized and charge
> free SVN service to Lyx. Weirdly enough, I received no answer. Intilinux
> Projects, see here:
> http://projects.intilinux.com/
> We are Italians but I speak English perfectly so there's no problem if u
> need anything: we can not only host u but also give u all the coding
> services u need: svn, bzr, cvs, forums, anything u need really. Now, can u
> please tell me if ou services are needed?
>

Luca,

the discussion is about Wave-based or Wave-equivalent systems vs Version
control based systems for document production and documents' life cycle
management. The link you posted, however, speaks only of code-management:
Sei un programmatore ed hai bisogno di spazio WEB, WIKi e/o servizi come SVN
e Trac o altri* per sviluppare il tuo progetto?

Either the services  you offer are not relevant to the discussion, or you
should rewrite the home page of your site! I, for one,  wouldn't mind
 trying it out for some of the stuff I am writing, at least on an
experimental basis.

Cheers,

Stefano

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi
Department of Philosophy   Ph:   (1) 979 862-2211
Texas A&M University Fax: (1) 979 845-0458
College Station, Texas, USA

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Luca De Marini]

Boys I made a polite question because I can offer a personalized and charge
free SVN service to Lyx. Weirdly enough, I received no answer. Intilinux
Projects, see here:
http://projects.intilinux.com/
We are Italians but I speak English perfectly so there's no problem if u
need anything: we can not only host u but also give u all the coding
services u need: svn, bzr, cvs, forums, anything u need really. Now, can u
please tell me if ou services are needed?
Greetings,

Luca

2010/4/13 Pavel Sanda 

> Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
> > (although a closer integration of VC, comparision and CT would be cool).
>
> i'm glad to hear somebody else also thinks it would be cool ;)
> from the VC point of view things are prepared in LFUN_VC_COMPARE
> but there is currently no easy way how to call comparison.
> i still hope we can settle on some solution with Vincent for 2.0.
>
> > For me, a main obstacle is the lack of a suitable web service. My Faculty
> does
> > not provide svn or other VC repositories, and I did not find a suitable
> > service on the web yet, where I can savely store my data in such a way
> that
> > only selected people can access it. But maybe I just didn't search long
> > enough.
>
> these are first hits on googling "public svn service"
>
> http://allantech.blogspot.com/2007/06/awesome-publicfree-svn-repository.html
> http://forums.site5.com/showthread.php?t=6580
>
> personally i would never give my data to any alien server though.
> pavel
>

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Pavel Sanda]

Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
> (although a closer integration of VC, comparision and CT would be cool).

i'm glad to hear somebody else also thinks it would be cool ;)
from the VC point of view things are prepared in LFUN_VC_COMPARE
but there is currently no easy way how to call comparison.
i still hope we can settle on some solution with Vincent for 2.0.

> For me, a main obstacle is the lack of a suitable web service. My Faculty 
> does 
> not provide svn or other VC repositories, and I did not find a suitable 
> service on the web yet, where I can savely store my data in such a way that 
> only selected people can access it. But maybe I just didn't search long 
> enough.

these are first hits on googling "public svn service"
http://allantech.blogspot.com/2007/06/awesome-publicfree-svn-repository.html
http://forums.site5.com/showthread.php?t=6580

personally i would never give my data to any alien server though.
pavel

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[rgheck]

On 04/13/2010 01:34 PM, Charles de Miramon wrote:

rgheck wrote:

   

It'd be nice to hear precisely what people would want that version
control does not provide. I have a hard time myself seeing why it is any
more than an "isn't that cool" feature for two people simultaneously to
edit a single document. I.e., fun, but hardly revolutionary as far as
actual productivity goes, at least for the sort of work most LyX users
actually do.
 


After using LyX for a long time. What I would like is a possibility to
manage the life cycle of an article.
My paper starts as a working paper, and handout and maybe a beamer
presentation, then a long version, a short version, a version formatted for
X, proofs, printed version, my additions and corrections to the printed
version, a version for an online repository, bits and pieces discarded from
the article that I want to keep with it, etc.

   
For this kind of thing, VC is precisely what you want, I think, i.e., a 
record of the evolution of your document, the ability to rewind to older 
versions, see a record of your changes, etc.


Richard

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Charles de Miramon]

rgheck wrote:

> It'd be nice to hear precisely what people would want that version
> control does not provide. I have a hard time myself seeing why it is any
> more than an "isn't that cool" feature for two people simultaneously to
> edit a single document. I.e., fun, but hardly revolutionary as far as
> actual productivity goes, at least for the sort of work most LyX users
> actually do.


After using LyX for a long time. What I would like is a possibility to 
manage the life cycle of an article.
My paper starts as a working paper, and handout and maybe a beamer 
presentation, then a long version, a short version, a version formatted for 
X, proofs, printed version, my additions and corrections to the printed 
version, a version for an online repository, bits and pieces discarded from 
the article that I want to keep with it, etc. 

Version control, Google wave seems to bring tools to manage the evolutive 
process of writing. Something, word processors are quite bad with.

Cheers,
Charles  

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Luca D.M.]

Hallo everyone, I'm missing what exactly Are we talking about.  
Bringing some LyX abilities on The cloud? And u need an svn / data  
service?


Greets,

Luca D.M.

Inviato da iPhone

Il giorno 13/apr/2010, alle ore 17.11, Jürgen Spitzmüller  
 ha scritto:



rgheck wrote:

Have you asked the IS people if they'd think about supporting svn on
their servers?


Yes, and they're actually quite open to it. However, I would  
probably be the
only one using it (the demand of such things is not great in a  
humanities
faculty), so I am somewhat reluctant in demanding it too strongly  
(the more so
since our IT people are, as probably everywhere, notoriously busy  
with other

things).

Jürgen

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

rgheck wrote:
> Have you asked the IS people if they'd think about supporting svn on 
> their servers?

Yes, and they're actually quite open to it. However, I would probably be the 
only one using it (the demand of such things is not great in a humanities 
faculty), so I am somewhat reluctant in demanding it too strongly (the more so 
since our IT people are, as probably everywhere, notoriously busy with other 
things).

Jürgen

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[rgheck]

On 04/13/2010 10:43 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

rgheck wrote:
   

It'd be nice to hear precisely what people would want that version
control does not provide. I have a hard time myself seeing why it is any
more than an "isn't that cool" feature for two people simultaneously to
edit a single document. I.e., fun, but hardly revolutionary as far as
actual productivity goes, at least for the sort of work most LyX users
actually do. There's no doubt that LyXs' VC support could be improved,
and it has been in some significant ways for 2.0, so we'd happily hear
suggestions about that, too.
 

I also think that VC probably provides all you need for collaboration
(although a closer integration of VC, comparision and CT would be cool).

For me, a main obstacle is the lack of a suitable web service. My Faculty does
not provide svn or other VC repositories, and I did not find a suitable
service on the web yet, where I can savely store my data in such a way that
only selected people can access it. But maybe I just didn't search long
enough.

   
I looked into some of this a while ago, and there aren't great options 
for the sort of thing we're discussing: I.e., not programming, and not 
open to everyone's eyes. Brown, as it happens, does provide such a 
facility, though I haven't yet found the time even to move our website 
code over there.


Have you asked the IS people if they'd think about supporting svn on 
their servers?


Richard

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

rgheck wrote:
> It'd be nice to hear precisely what people would want that version 
> control does not provide. I have a hard time myself seeing why it is any 
> more than an "isn't that cool" feature for two people simultaneously to 
> edit a single document. I.e., fun, but hardly revolutionary as far as 
> actual productivity goes, at least for the sort of work most LyX users 
> actually do. There's no doubt that LyXs' VC support could be improved, 
> and it has been in some significant ways for 2.0, so we'd happily hear 
> suggestions about that, too.

I also think that VC probably provides all you need for collaboration 
(although a closer integration of VC, comparision and CT would be cool).

For me, a main obstacle is the lack of a suitable web service. My Faculty does 
not provide svn or other VC repositories, and I did not find a suitable 
service on the web yet, where I can savely store my data in such a way that 
only selected people can access it. But maybe I just didn't search long 
enough.

Jürgen

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[rgheck]

On 04/13/2010 06:31 AM, Jose Quesada wrote:

Thanks Sam,

That's good to know.
But I think the point here is that if all other tools do collaboration,
sooner or later LyX should offer something along the lines. Maybe builnding
on top of mercurial vcs (good multiplatform support, python) and sites such
as bitbucket would be a way to implement this.

   
It'd be nice to hear precisely what people would want that version 
control does not provide. I have a hard time myself seeing why it is any 
more than an "isn't that cool" feature for two people simultaneously to 
edit a single document. I.e., fun, but hardly revolutionary as far as 
actual productivity goes, at least for the sort of work most LyX users 
actually do. There's no doubt that LyXs' VC support could be improved, 
and it has been in some significant ways for 2.0, so we'd happily hear 
suggestions about that, too.


Richard

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Jose Quesada]

Thanks Sam,

That's good to know.
But I think the point here is that if all other tools do collaboration,
sooner or later LyX should offer something along the lines. Maybe builnding
on top of mercurial vcs (good multiplatform support, python) and sites such
as bitbucket would be a way to implement this.

Best,
-Jose

Jose Quesada, PhD.
Max Planck Institute,
Center for Adaptive Behavior and Cognition,
Berlin
http://www.josequesada.name/
http://twitter.com/Quesada


On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 9:07 AM, Sam Liddicott  wrote:

>  On 12/04/10 21:28, Jose Quesada wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> New google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends).
>> googledocs.blogspot.com/2010/04/new-google-docs.html
>>
>> Most people agree that collaboration tools in latex lag behing word/gdocs.
>> LyX has track changes, but it's very hard to convince collaborators to use
>> it.
>> It'd be good to keep an eye on this. Office will come up with online
>> versions for Office 2010. If every other tool has a cloud version, LyX
>> will
>> be perceived as old-style and it'd be even harder to convince
>> collaborators
>>
>
> Rich xml formats with overlapping features allow conversions to be done
> with xslt.
>
> Perhaps google docs can be used as a collaboration back end, with xslt
> conversion to lyx's new xml format locally.
>
> Sam
>

Re: new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Sam Liddicott]

 On 12/04/10 21:28, Jose Quesada wrote:

Hi All,

New google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends).
googledocs.blogspot.com/2010/04/new-google-docs.html

Most people agree that collaboration tools in latex lag behing word/gdocs.
LyX has track changes, but it's very hard to convince collaborators to use
it.
It'd be good to keep an eye on this. Office will come up with online
versions for Office 2010. If every other tool has a cloud version, LyX will
be perceived as old-style and it'd be even harder to convince collaborators


Rich xml formats with overlapping features allow conversions to be done 
with xslt.


Perhaps google docs can be used as a collaboration back end, with xslt 
conversion to lyx's new xml format locally.


Sam

new google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends)

[Jose Quesada]

Hi All,

New google docs interface, with wave backend. (collaboration trends).
googledocs.blogspot.com/2010/04/new-google-docs.html

Most people agree that collaboration tools in latex lag behing word/gdocs.
LyX has track changes, but it's very hard to convince collaborators to use
it.
It'd be good to keep an eye on this. Office will come up with online
versions for Office 2010. If every other tool has a cloud version, LyX will
be perceived as old-style and it'd be even harder to convince collaborators
:)

Best,
-Jose

Jose Quesada, PhD.
Max Planck Institute,
Center for Adaptive Behavior and Cognition,
Berlin
http://www.josequesada.name/
http://twitter.com/Quesada