On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 02:47:02AM +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
> BTW. I also sometimes (quite rarely) send messages from my server using two
> other sender addresses corresponding to two small organizations I belong to.
> They are in different domains. I also tried to send mail from
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 17:17:32 Brandon Long via mailop pisze:
>
> If content analysis was sufficient, why would anyone bother with all of the
> other signals?
Mostly to save time and computing power maybe? With thousands of messages
sent from a particular IP, content analysis of each one of
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 4:31 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:16:56 Brandon Long pisze:
> >
> > Except it's usually trivial for folks within a netblock to move their
> > traffic from one IP
> > to another.
>
> So isn't it better for such low-volume senders as me to rely on
On 7 Oct 2019, at 19:01, Brandon Long via mailop wrote:
> Of course,
> you can't run a full A-level simulation
> at that point, since then you couldn't erase it after or reset it, and over
> time it would drift from what the original
> wants.
That is definitely only a Google problem..;.
--
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:16:56 Brandon Long pisze:
>
> Except it's usually trivial for folks within a netblock to move their
> traffic from one IP
> to another.
So isn't it better for such low-volume senders as me to rely on content
analysis only rather than including netblock reputation into
Dnia 8.10.2019 o godz. 00:48:25 Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop pisze:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:14:34 Brandon Long via mailop pisze:
> > Use a third party relay that has a better reputation and volume?
>
> That was the first thing that came to my mind as a workaround. But just
> tried it and it
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 4:07 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:01:26 Brandon Long pisze:
> >
> > What value does the reputation calculation have of an IP that's sent 20
> > messages to us in the last 30 days?
>
> Because the volume of messages is so low, I guess you should
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 3:58 PM John Gateley via mailop
wrote:
>
>
> On 10/7/19 4:38 PM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote:
>
>
>
> Also, it's hard to optimize for the servers that send us one message a
> day. I've argued before that we should
> have better handling for the smallest servers
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:01:26 Brandon Long pisze:
>
> What value does the reputation calculation have of an IP that's sent 20
> messages to us in the last 30 days?
Because the volume of messages is so low, I guess you should assume that
they are OK unless it is *proven* that they are spam
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 3:30 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:14:34 Brandon Long via mailop pisze:
> > Because a handful of users marking them as not-spam isn't enough to
> overcome
> > the netblock signal.
>
> Well, I think that a company that has access to such amount of
On 10/7/19 4:38 PM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote:
Also, it's hard to optimize for the servers that send us one message a
day. I've argued before that we should
have better handling for the smallest servers (whitelist the first 5
messages/day for low volume IPs, for example),
but the
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:14:34 Brandon Long via mailop pisze:
> Use a third party relay that has a better reputation and volume?
That was the first thing that came to my mind as a workaround. But just
tried it and it doesn't work. Sent via an intermediate server in AWS cloud.
The mail is going
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:14:34 Brandon Long via mailop pisze:
> Because a handful of users marking them as not-spam isn't enough to overcome
> the netblock signal.
Well, I think that a company that has access to such amount of computing
power as Google has, wouldn't have a problem to calculate
On 7 Oct 2019, at 13:35, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
However, from my experience, it isn't the case. Users almost never
look into
their spam folder unless someone tells them to do so. They don't even
realize that there might be false positives - they simply think that
there
can't be
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 2:57 PM Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:38:23 Brandon Long via mailop pisze:
> >
> > The way Google finds out that a sender is valid is people marking it
> > not-spam. We can
> > trust (mostly, sorta, kinda) our receivers more than we can trust the
> >
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:38:23 Brandon Long via mailop pisze:
>
> The way Google finds out that a sender is valid is people marking it
> not-spam. We can
> trust (mostly, sorta, kinda) our receivers more than we can trust the
> senders. Plus, that's
> our definition of spam, it's what our
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 9:50 AM Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop
wrote:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 10:16:10 Brielle via mailop pisze:
> >
> > You do realize, some of us have been through lawsuits before because
> > people like you thought that your supposed 'right' to send e-mail
> > trumped our rights to
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 20:09:28 Andy Smith via mailop pisze:
>
> Yes, it is extremely frustrating, but gmail's users seem prepared to
> have some amount of false positives.
It would be great if it would be the case. I wouldn't care that my message
can land in recipient's spam folder if the
On Mon 07/Oct/2019 21:34:56 +0200 Jaroslaw Rafa Via Mailop wrote:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 20:08:57 Alessandro Vesely via mailop pisze:
>
>> As others have noted, https://rdap.db.ripe.net/ip/217.182.79.147/ does not
>> identify a party.
>
> My browser returns a 404 error on that link... It
Hello,
On Mon, Oct 07, 2019 at 06:12:36PM +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:22:32 Andrew C Aitchison via mailop pisze:
> > But the basic problem remains; an AI has decided it doesn't like you.
[…]
> That's why there always should be a human who is able to
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 20:08:57 Alessandro Vesely via mailop pisze:
> > Previously I didn't have SPF nor DKIM (as I wrote, for long time it was
> > absolutely no obstacle in getting my messages received by Gmail users), so I
> > configured them, I also published a DMARC record. DMARC reports I
On 10/7/19 11:08, Alessandro Vesely via mailop wrote:
In addition, there is a DNSBL listing
217.182.79.147 Spam Grouper Net block list
netblockbl.spamgrouper.to Listed
Query: 147.79.182.217.netblockbl.spamgrouper.to
A Record: 127.0.0.2
TTL: 2100
reported by
>Same advice.. Insist that VLUTR gives you 'rwhois'..
I admit I'm new to rwhois, only used to whois. FWIW, my reverse DNS works and
is set properly, I do have static IP's, but VULTR has not transferred ownership
of those IP's to me in ARIN (assume they wouldn't), so whois shows them as the
On Mon 07/Oct/2019 15:34:34 +0200 Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
> Hello All,
> [...]
>
> Previously I didn't have SPF nor DKIM (as I wrote, for long time it was
> absolutely no obstacle in getting my messages received by Gmail users), so I
> configured them, I also published a DMARC record.
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 10:13:21 Jay Hennigan via mailop pisze:
> Can you elaborate on:
>
> "It happens mostly to recipients to whom I write for the first time (for
> example, found their e-mail address at their website and want to ask for
> something I'm interested in)."
>
> Are you sending
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 10:24:25 Jay Hennigan via mailop pisze:
>
> No. Google's mailservers are on Google's network. Google is under no
> obligation to accept email from other networks at all, much less
> have other networks dictate how it is delivered. If Google's users
> are happy with
On 10/7/19 07:58, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:47:29 Graeme Fowler via mailop pisze:
"Their network; their rules".
No, it's not their network. It's our common network. If anybody imposes own
rules on their part of the network, we are losing interoperability.
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 11:07:23 Brielle via mailop pisze:
> There is no difference when it comes to the rights of what I can do
> with the equipment/bandwidth I own.
>
> I regularly and without a second thought block whole TLDs and > /24
> netblocks. Do I worry about it? Not really,
I would.
On 10/7/19 07:29, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:18:52 Mathieu Bourdin via mailop pisze:
Weel, basically your issue can be summarized in one word: reputation.
Welcome to email deliverability 101 ;)
And in what way this helps anything?
Do you want to say "you
On 10/7/2019 10:49 AM, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
Well, we all have right to protect ourselves from actual spammer.
But not from "someone who I think might look like a spammer".
There is no difference when it comes to the rights of what I can do with
the equipment/bandwidth I own.
I
On 2019-10-07 8:43 a.m., Scott Techlist via mailop wrote:
I'm watching this thread with a lot of interest. I believe I saw where the OP
was referred here on the Postfix list where those guys expected the OP to get
some more technical help instead of get a better rep :)
Recently my server has
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 10:16:10 Brielle via mailop pisze:
>
> You do realize, some of us have been through lawsuits before because
> people like you thought that your supposed 'right' to send e-mail
> trumped our rights to the equipment/bandwidth/resources we own?
Well, we all have right to
On 10/7/2019 12:19 PM, Brielle via mailop wrote:
On 10/7/2019 10:06 AM, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
Ah, where are the times when the Internet was about mutual
understanding and
co-operation by the admins, to maintain highest possible
connectivity... And
if someone didn't get their email
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 10:27:49 Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. via mailop pisze:
>
> How recently did you do all this? Unfortunately, as with many things, it
> takes only a moment to destroy your sending reputation, and months to
> rebuild it.
Well, maybe I actually have to wait - it was "only" a week
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 10:19:57 Brielle via mailop pisze:
>
> Hate to break it to you, but its always been "my network, my rules".
> When people started being shitty neighbors, those people who were
> once understanding started protecting themselves better.
>
> I've been a network admin my
On 10/7/2019 10:06 AM, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
Ah, where are the times when the Internet was about mutual understanding and
co-operation by the admins, to maintain highest possible connectivity... And
if someone didn't get their email delivered, admins from both sides treated
this as a
On 10/7/2019 9:50 AM, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
Of course I know what ampr.org is, and if*this* domain is facing that
issue, then I feel speechless and very, very mad at Google.
Of course, nobody can succeed individually in a lawsuit against Google. But
maybe*all* senders who are facing
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 16:22:32 Andrew C Aitchison via mailop pisze:
>
> But the basic problem remains; an AI has decided it doesn't like you.
> Many bad guys spend significant amounts of time/money/effort trying
> to get out of this AI's bad books, so it has defences again those
> who try to
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 08:24:45 Michael Peddemors via mailop pisze:
> Hehe.. don't feel bad, we have even seen receipts for our Spam
> Protection product(s) end up in their spam folders sometimes..
>
> If it isn't because you are missing an SPF record for your domain,
> it is likely content.. we
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 09:24:26 Brielle via mailop pisze:
>
> Email isn’t a public utility or a right. I’m a DNSbl maintainer - myself
> and others have battled this out over the last 20 years to ensure that
> even the courts recognize that.
>
> The fact you can send email to this list, is
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 10:43:14 Scott Techlist via mailop pisze:
>
> What about relaying outbound mail via services like Sendgrid? Not sure it
> that will make it better, or worse since they send marketing stuff. And
> Google probably looking at the source server headers anyway.
Myself I hate
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 08:13:37 Brian Kantor via mailop pisze:
>
> One of my domains, 'ampr.org', which has been in existence longer
> than Google has, has the same problem, in that mail from it is often
> diverted into the recipient's spam folder.
Of course I know what ampr.org is, and if
On 2019-10-07 8:18 a.m., Paul Smith via mailop wrote:
On 07/10/2019 15:47, Graeme Fowler via mailop wrote:
Also you're on OVH, about which a quick look through the list's
archives will possibly prove instructive. It's reasonably likely (as
likely as not) that you're running on an IP in a
I'm watching this thread with a lot of interest. I believe I saw where the OP
was referred here on the Postfix list where those guys expected the OP to get
some more technical help instead of get a better rep :)
Recently my server has been getting some, but not all messages to Gmail canned.
> On 7 Oct 2019, at 16:28, Alan Hodgson via mailop wrote:
>
> Google
> drops my mail into Spam now too for no reason.
>
> There is no technical reason for this, they just apparently don't want
> mail from infrequent senders. Or just don't want anyone running their
> own mail server, take your
On Mon, 2019-10-07 at 15:34 +0200, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
> Hello All,
> this is my first post to this list - I just learned about its existence and
> someone told me that maybe it is possible to solve my issue here.
>
> I run my own personal mailserver at rafa.eu.org for quite a few
Hehe.. don't feel bad, we have even seen receipts for our Spam
Protection product(s) end up in their spam folders sometimes..
If it isn't because you are missing an SPF record for your domain, it is
likely content.. we can send the same message with a few lines stripped
and it will get
On 07/10/2019 15:47, Graeme Fowler via mailop wrote:
Also you're on OVH, about which a quick look through the list's archives will
possibly prove instructive. It's reasonably likely (as likely as not) that
you're running on an IP in a neighbourhood with some poor neighbours.
From personal
Hello,
You’ve got a few issues that are going to play into this - OVH as your host,
subdomain off of a free dns name provider...
Email isn’t a public utility or a right. I’m a DNSbl maintainer - myself and
others have battled this out over the last 20 years to ensure that even the
courts
On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:18:52 Mathieu Bourdin via mailop pisze:
Weel, basically your issue can be summarized in one word: reputation.
Welcome to email deliverability 101 ;)
And in what way this helps anything?
Do you want to say "you
> No, it's not their network. It's our common network. If anybody imposes own
> rules on their part of the network, we are losing interoperability. Internet
> loses any sense.
I doubt you'll get very far with that argument; if you really like
tilting at windmills, engage a lawyer and claim that
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 15:47:29 Graeme Fowler via mailop pisze:
>
> "Their network; their rules".
No, it's not their network. It's our common network. If anybody imposes own
rules on their part of the network, we are losing interoperability. Internet
loses any sense.
> A quick look at Talos
On 7 Oct 2019, at 15:29, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote:
> Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:18:52 Mathieu Bourdin via mailop pisze:
>>
>> Weel, basically your issue can be summarized in one word: reputation.
>>
>> Welcome to email deliverability 101 ;)
>
> And in what way this helps anything?
>
>
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:35:54 Mathieu Bourdin pisze:
>
> The technical corrections you did are only the first step, now you have to
> make sure that each and every mail you send from your infrastructure
> complies with the greatest of all rules: send mail only to people who
> asked for it, and
Dnia 7.10.2019 o godz. 14:18:52 Mathieu Bourdin via mailop pisze:
>
> Weel, basically your issue can be summarized in one word: reputation.
>
> Welcome to email deliverability 101 ;)
And in what way this helps anything?
Do you want to say "you should just accept that Google got crazy some day
Hi,
Weel, basically your issue can be summarized in one word: reputation.
Welcome to email deliverability 101 ;)
Mathieu Bourdin.
-Message d'origine-
De : mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] De la part de Jaroslaw Rafa via
mailop
Envoyé : lundi 7 octobre 2019 15:35
À :
Hello All,
this is my first post to this list - I just learned about its existence and
someone told me that maybe it is possible to solve my issue here.
I run my own personal mailserver at rafa.eu.org for quite a few years. All
the time I had absolutely no problems with sending messages to Gmail.
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