RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 2004-05-16 at 16:02, Omid K. Rad wrote: > I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found > many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of > the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance. Ah, that's an "Eghbal" calendar. They compute the calendar themselves and specially have certain calendars for astrology uses. I won't consider that an authoritative calendar. Anyway, since we are going to recommend one thing, FarsiWeb will stick with "mordaad" in written form. We understand the problems, but it looks unavoidable. I will personally try to raise the issue in the next Persian Academy meeting I attend. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Tue, 18 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > > > But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the > > correct word is actually 'Amordad' > > Recommend you avoid "correcting" anything. Once you make a > decision to "correct" one thing, you'll end up having to > correct more and more and then it will get out of control. If > you have an option for variants, fine but the one in the main > entry should be the default, standard word in use right now > at the time you are collecting data. Your job is to DEscribe, > not PREscribe. -Connie > I'll keep that in mind ;) Omid ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct > word is actually 'Amordad' Recommend you avoid "correcting" anything. Once you make a decision to "correct" one thing, you'll end up having to correct more and more and then it will get out of control. If you have an option for variants, fine but the one in the main entry should be the default, standard word in use right now at the time you are collecting data. Your job is to DEscribe, not PREscribe. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > It is still "Amordad"; I was going to point it out here > > to discuss, as I did not find about it in the archives. -Omid > > The answer is really simple: Have you ever seen "Amordad" > printed *anywhere*? That's like using Pahlavi instead of > Modern Persian. In fact I myself use 'Mordad' ordinarily, because I'm simply used to it. But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct word is actually 'Amordad' whose initial ALEF is dropped over a not-so-long time, because of the simplicity to pronounce. The initial ALEF in Persian was used to negate a noun, thus Amordad which means 'the month of no-death' or 'the month of life' has now altered to Mordad meaning 'the month of death'. It was interesting for me when I found that many *printed* almanacs observe to use the original word and I had never noticed that. My mind always saw 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad'. So I was thinking why not have another exception in our literature such as the VAAV in words 'khaahesh' and 'khaahar' that is written but not read. Write 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad' to have the modern word while not corruptting the old good meaning. I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance. Omid <>___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: IranL10nInfo
I've seen it in the calendars. Masoud On Sun, May 16, 2004 at 07:47:31AM -0400, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > Iranian guys, would you please do a short statistical survey? > > > On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > > > On Sun, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > > > > It is still "Amordad"; I was going to point it out here > > > > to discuss, as I did not find about it in the archives. -Omid > > > > > > The answer is really simple: Have you ever seen "Amordad" > > > printed *anywhere*? That's like using Pahlavi instead of > > > Modern Persian. > > > > In fact I myself use 'Mordad' ordinarily, because I'm simply used to it. > > But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct > > word is actually 'Amordad' whose initial ALEF is dropped over a > > not-so-long time, because of the simplicity to pronounce. The initial > > ALEF in Persian was used to negate a noun, thus Amordad which means 'the > > month of no-death' or 'the month of life' has now altered to Mordad > > meaning 'the month of death'. It was interesting for me when I found > > that many *printed* almanacs observe to use the original word and I had > > never noticed that. My mind always saw 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad'. So I > > was thinking why not have another exception in our literature such as > > the VAAV in words 'khaahesh' and 'khaahar' that is written but not read. > > Write 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad' to have the modern word while not > > corruptting the old good meaning. > > > > I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found > > many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of > > the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance. > > > > Omid > > > > --behdad > behdad.org > ___ > PersianComputing mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
> Iranian guys, would you please do a short statistical survey? I've never come across Amordad. And I was born in (A)Mordad... Ehsan ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Iranian guys, would you please do a short statistical survey? On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > On Sun, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > > > It is still "Amordad"; I was going to point it out here > > > to discuss, as I did not find about it in the archives. -Omid > > > > The answer is really simple: Have you ever seen "Amordad" > > printed *anywhere*? That's like using Pahlavi instead of > > Modern Persian. > > In fact I myself use 'Mordad' ordinarily, because I'm simply used to it. > But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct > word is actually 'Amordad' whose initial ALEF is dropped over a > not-so-long time, because of the simplicity to pronounce. The initial > ALEF in Persian was used to negate a noun, thus Amordad which means 'the > month of no-death' or 'the month of life' has now altered to Mordad > meaning 'the month of death'. It was interesting for me when I found > that many *printed* almanacs observe to use the original word and I had > never noticed that. My mind always saw 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad'. So I > was thinking why not have another exception in our literature such as > the VAAV in words 'khaahesh' and 'khaahar' that is written but not read. > Write 'Amordad' and read 'Mordad' to have the modern word while not > corruptting the old good meaning. > > I don't have many calendars in hand here, but when I was in Iran I found > many calendars that use 'Amordad' instead of 'Mordad'. I took a photo of > the only Iranian calendar I have here for you too see an instance. > > Omid > --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > Hi Behdad, > > I heard you. Yes, you replied some tardy, but still hasty. It is good to > have others' opinions but I don't like to see you opposing for nothing. > You apparently wrote to Connie but I'm answering to you, Behdad. Well, I really have been replying to Connie wondering why FarsiWeb has not shown enough interest in your project. That's the source of many misunderstandings of yours in my reply. > On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > [...] In short: There's much more to do than "translating" > > the Microsoft list of blah blah. [...] > > Yes, there's much more to do but that's not enough reason for us to > ignore minor (as you assume) things. No, I didn't assumed your work being minor. I just assumed that I'm busy enough with other tasks. > > 1) I see no apparent benefit (to anyone) in preparing a patch for > > Microsoft: they don't apply it. > > Well, I'm not quitting because you think like that. To be honest, I have been giving a hint to work focus your work on Mono and Dotgnu instead of Microsoft, or at least consider them more seriously. At least, they will accept your patch. > > but if they are lazy and want us to go say write this in that > > column, No, we've got more important things to do. > > Is that what I asked?? Or is that the answer to my considering and > respecting your ideas? Again, everybody knows you didn't asked that. And that's why I'm saying I didn't meant you. > > Still, in their list you see they have translated AM/PM to > > Ghaf.Zad./Beh.Zad., [...] > > Look again. It is "Sobh/Be.Zad." I believe "Ba'd az Zohr" makes sense > for every PM time except at the exact 12:00 O'clock. "Asr" works but > from 6 on it sounds odd (as it is in Linux). For AM, "Ghaf.Zad" or > "Ghabl az Zohr" is unusual (as it is in Windows). Humm, not sure how we can decide on one of them :(. I still prefer "asr", being a complete word. But I think this is personal preference, as "badazohr" makes more sense, but you should take some points for suggesting a non-symmetric abbr. system. (sobh vs b.z.). > > 4) The discussion around "Mordad" vs "Amordad" suggested that > > either at least some of the people involved have been out of > > country for such a long time, or they are that kind of people > > that will refuse to use Arabic words! No offense meant, no > > war please. > > If you're meaning me, yes, I'm out of country for about a year. So what? > I'm not eligible to say about my country and my culture? What about > yourself? NO, I DIDN'T MEAN YOU. YES, I'M OUT OF COUNTRY FOR ALMOST AS LONG AS YOU ARE TOO. > Did you find "Mordad" Arabic, or "Amordad"?! > Well, you're keeping so conservative man... no war! I've been doing mailing lists heavily for five years now! > > Believe me, I read how they changed it to > > "Mordad" and how open to ideas the group is. But still > > that's the impression it left in me. > > It is still "Amordad"; I was going to point it out here to discuss, as I > did not find about it in the archives. The answer is really simple: Have you ever seen "Amordad" printed *anywhere*? That's like using Pahlavi instead of Modern Persian. [...] > More Cheers :P, > Omid Yeah, we need the Cheers, Cheers everybody, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 22:50, hameed afssari wrote: > 1. Jalali is the offical calendar of Afghanestan (although they may be > using different month name). They use different month names, yes, but they officially call it the same as Iran: "Hejri-e Shamsi" or "Hejri-e Khorshidi". That can be confirmed by looking at any calendar published in Afghanistan. To find some information about the calendars of Afghanistan, please see page 23 of the CLRA report: http://evertype.com/standards/af/af-locales.pdf > 2. By calling it Persian or Iranian Calendar you are be default > limiting it's use to a country or region and that is not correct. Actually, that will make it very correct. The actual computation of the leap year in this calendar is based on the Iranian coordinates. To quote the text of the official Iranian law of 1925, "the first day of the year, is the day that sun passes the spring equinox point between the noon of that day and the noon of its previous day". You can see that it refers to *noon*, which is defined differently in different parts of the world. Iraj Malekpour, the previous guy in charge of the official calendar of Iran, used the noon of the 52.5 degree meridian (nesf-on-nahaar) that defines the official time of the country. I don't know the current practice. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 02:09, Omid K. Rad wrote: > I totally agree with you that the name "Jalali" keeps away all that > confusion and debate around Farsi/Persian/Iranian and also > Shamsi/Khorshidi. There remains another confusion also: that the Afghan calendar is different from the Iranian one in leap year calculation. And since the origin of both is the Jalali calendar > But as far as I'm advised, the "Jalali Calendar" > refers to an era other than the "Hejrie Shamsi" which is in use today, > and the calculations are not exactly the same. This is what some people > have told me, I don't know about the details though. Can anybody clarify > please? I confirm. The leap year calculation rule is supposedly that same, but the lengths of the months is different. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Mon, 2004-05-10 at 00:40, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > On SuHumm, after finishing the > sentence, I go back to vote for "Jalali"! As it avoid binding > yet another meaning to the Persian/Iranian word, and we don't > have to go on tell everybody that this "Farsi Calendar" is the > same as the "Persian Calendar" or "Iranian Calendar", which in > turn used to be known as "Jalali Calendar" or "Jalaali Calendar" > by MS... Poof, "Jalali Calendar" is such a cute name, not? It has a serious problem: there already exits a Jalali calendar that is different from this calendar we are talking about. It uses the same leap year rules, but each month is 30 days, with 5 or 6 additional days added at the end [Mosahab Persian Encyclopedia, Vol 1, Page 657, "taghvim-e jalaali" entry]. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
IMHO Calling the Jala(a)li a.k.a "Hijri Shamsi" a.k.a "Hijri Khorshidi" calendar as "Persian" or "Iranian" calendar will not be preferred becuase 1. Jalali is the offical calendar of Afghanestan (although they may be using different month name). 2. By calling it Persian or Iranian Calendar you are be default limiting it's use to a country or region and that is not correct. Thanks;Hameed >From: "Omid K. Rad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "'Behdad Esfahbod'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: "'PersianComputing'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo >Date: Sun, 9 May 2004 22:58:06 +0300 > >On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > Hi Omid, > >Hi, > > > A couple of points: The Jalaali calendar, can you please > > tell me in which of the ECMA standards is it defined? > >None. I don't agree with that name for our current calendar. It is the >name Microsoft has selected. I believe 'Persian calendar' or 'Iranian >calendar' is more correct (and known) for the international name of >"Hejrie Shamsi". > > > > The same about the locale definitions. > >Which defenitions you mean exactly? Those fields that you see in the >draft are properties of some globalization classes defined in the .NET >Base Class Library (BCL), and we are defining their expected return >values for Iran. > > > > And next: You are saying that the Mono and DotGNU projects > > "are published under noncommercial shared-source licenses". > > I'm almost sure this is not the case. "shared-source" is the > > old Microsoft trick. Both of this two platforms (Mono and > > DotGNU) can be used for commercial purposes as well as > > non-commercial, both for free. You can read more about why a > > noncommercial-only license is not the best license at > > http://www.fsf.org/ > >Yes, they are open source, and each part of them is published under the >terms of a GNU licence. You're right, you can create commercial >applications for these platforms as well. > > > Later, > >:) > > > behdad > > > >Omid > > > > > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > > > > > <> > > > > > > > > > Hello every body, especially my friends at FarsiWeb, > > > > > > I'm trying to point out some things here (even though you might > > > already > > > know) about .NET and our project. > > > > > > For your information: > > > > > > The .NET Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) and the C# > > programming > > > language were submitted to ECMA and ISO/IEC International > > > standardization organizations a couple of years ago. The > > submissions > > > were ratified as standards after thorough investigations as: > > > > > > Standard ECMA-334 (C#) > > > > > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm > > > > > > Standard ECMA-335 (CLI) > > > > > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm > > > > > > Standard ISO/IEC 23270 (C#) > > > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER= > > > 36 > > > 768 > > > > > > Standard ISO/IEC 23271 (CLI) > > > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER= > > > 36 > > > 769 > > > > > > This resulted in raising many new open source movements > > over .NET in > > > the ICT community, amongst which there are three major projects by > > > third parties that intend to implement versions of the .NET > > Framework > > > conforming to the base implementations that Microsoft has > > done or is > > > already underway. Those are: > > > > > > The Ximian's Mono Project sponsored by UNIX http://www.go-mono.com > > > > > > Free Software Foundation's Portable .NET > > > http://www.dotgnu.org/pnet.html > > > > > > Corel's Rotor (Microsoft SSCLI) for FreeBSD > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/sscli > > > > > > > > > All of these implementations are published under noncommercial > > > shared-source licenses. This means we will have .NET applications > > > running on a vast number of platforms quite soon, to name a > > handful: > > &g
RE: IranL10nInfo
I totally agree with you that the name "Jalali" keeps away all that confusion and debate around Farsi/Persian/Iranian and also Shamsi/Khorshidi. But as far as I'm advised, the "Jalali Calendar" refers to an era other than the "Hejrie Shamsi" which is in use today, and the calculations are not exactly the same. This is what some people have told me, I don't know about the details though. Can anybody clarify please? > "Jalali Calendar" is such a cute name, not? Yeah, and funny is the message a guy has commented on MSDN Longhorn annotations for the Jalaali calendar: "Thank you This Calender Is A Good Thank You Mr Jalali Thank Bill" Doh!! Omid On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Humm, good point. I was worried about "Jalaali" being used > instead of "Jalali". But now that you mention it, I almost > agree that one of Persian or Iranian calendar may suit > better. Well, we have the Gregorian and Julian calendar > suggesting "Jalali", and we have Chinese and Japanese > suggesting "Iranian", and we have Islamic and Hebrew > calendars suggesting "Persian"! Guys, can we decide on one > once now? Humm, after finishing the sentence, I go back to > vote for "Jalali"! As it avoid binding yet another meaning > to the Persian/Iranian word, and we don't have to go on tell > everybody that this "Farsi Calendar" is the same as the > "Persian Calendar" or "Iranian Calendar", which in turn used > to be known as "Jalali Calendar" or "Jalaali Calendar" by > MS... Poof, "Jalali Calendar" is such a cute name, not? > > Oh, the main point, now that "Jalaali" is not in any standard > yet, perhaps you can request a name change from "Jalaali" to > "Jalali". Of course it's just my personal suggestion. > > later, > --behdad > behdad.org > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > > Hi Omid, > > Hi, Aleyke Hi, > > A couple of points: The Jalaali calendar, can you please > > tell me in which of the ECMA standards is it defined? > > None. I don't agree with that name for our current calendar. It is the > name Microsoft has selected. I believe 'Persian calendar' or 'Iranian > calendar' is more correct (and known) for the international name of > "Hejrie Shamsi". Humm, good point. I was worried about "Jalaali" being used instead of "Jalali". But now that you mention it, I almost agree that one of Persian or Iranian calendar may suit better. Well, we have the Gregorian and Julian calendar suggesting "Jalali", and we have Chinese and Japanese suggesting "Iranian", and we have Islamic and Hebrew calendars suggesting "Persian"! Guys, can we decide on one once now? Humm, after finishing the sentence, I go back to vote for "Jalali"! As it avoid binding yet another meaning to the Persian/Iranian word, and we don't have to go on tell everybody that this "Farsi Calendar" is the same as the "Persian Calendar" or "Iranian Calendar", which in turn used to be known as "Jalali Calendar" or "Jalaali Calendar" by MS... Poof, "Jalali Calendar" is such a cute name, not? Oh, the main point, now that "Jalaali" is not in any standard yet, perhaps you can request a name change from "Jalaali" to "Jalali". Of course it's just my personal suggestion. later, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Hi Omid, Hi, > A couple of points: The Jalaali calendar, can you please > tell me in which of the ECMA standards is it defined? None. I don't agree with that name for our current calendar. It is the name Microsoft has selected. I believe 'Persian calendar' or 'Iranian calendar' is more correct (and known) for the international name of "Hejrie Shamsi". > The same about the locale definitions. Which defenitions you mean exactly? Those fields that you see in the draft are properties of some globalization classes defined in the .NET Base Class Library (BCL), and we are defining their expected return values for Iran. > And next: You are saying that the Mono and DotGNU projects > "are published under noncommercial shared-source licenses". > I'm almost sure this is not the case. "shared-source" is the > old Microsoft trick. Both of this two platforms (Mono and > DotGNU) can be used for commercial purposes as well as > non-commercial, both for free. You can read more about why a > noncommercial-only license is not the best license at > http://www.fsf.org/ Yes, they are open source, and each part of them is published under the terms of a GNU licence. You're right, you can create commercial applications for these platforms as well. > Later, :) > behdad > Omid > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > > > <> > > > > > > Hello every body, especially my friends at FarsiWeb, > > > > I'm trying to point out some things here (even though you might > > already > > know) about .NET and our project. > > > > For your information: > > > > The .NET Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) and the C# > programming > > language were submitted to ECMA and ISO/IEC International > > standardization organizations a couple of years ago. The > submissions > > were ratified as standards after thorough investigations as: > > > > Standard ECMA-334 (C#) > > > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm > > > > Standard ECMA-335 (CLI) > > > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm > > > > Standard ISO/IEC 23270 (C#) > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER= > > 36 > > 768 > > > > Standard ISO/IEC 23271 (CLI) > > > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER= > > 36 > > 769 > > > > This resulted in raising many new open source movements > over .NET in > > the ICT community, amongst which there are three major projects by > > third parties that intend to implement versions of the .NET > Framework > > conforming to the base implementations that Microsoft has > done or is > > already underway. Those are: > > > > The Ximian's Mono Project sponsored by UNIX http://www.go-mono.com > > > > Free Software Foundation's Portable .NET > > http://www.dotgnu.org/pnet.html > > > > Corel's Rotor (Microsoft SSCLI) for FreeBSD > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/sscli > > > > > > All of these implementations are published under noncommercial > > shared-source licenses. This means we will have .NET applications > > running on a vast number of platforms quite soon, to name a > handful: > > Linux, Windows, Solaris, FreeBSD, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. We > have also a > > choice of more than 20 programming languages to choose from: APL, > > COBOL, Component Pascal, Eiffel, Fortran, Haskell, Jscript.NET, > > Mercury, Oberon, Pascal, Perl, Python, Smalltalk, Visual > Basic.NET, C# > > , Managed > > C++, etc. > > > > To make applications more interoperable between different > platforms, > > all of the implementations of CLI consider implementing the > > fundamental namespaces in the .NET Framework Class Library that > > reflect closely to what Microsoft releases. These don't include > > namespaces such as Microsoft.*, yet include those that are > referred to > > as pure .NET namespaces which System.Globalization > namespace is one of > > them. > > > > The System.Globalization is also available in .NET Compact > Framework - > > a lighter version of the framework that installs on > handheld devices. > > > > In the "Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET" project > > (IranL10nInfo for short) we have selected to work only on > those parts > > of .NET that are in the System.Globalization namespace (pure .NET). > > Any changes that Microsoft mekes on them are indirectly ported to > > every non-Microsoft implementations of the Class Library. > > > > Moreover, this project will automatically produce a good layout of > > information fields that we can simply use for other languages like > > Tajik and Afghan. > > > > > > So, we are trying to resolve some locale issues far beyond > Microsoft - > > a big name. > > > > > > > > All the best, > > Omid > > __ > > Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET > > http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/ > > > > > > Other Open Source developments over ECMA CLI: > > > > I
RE: IranL10nInfo
Hi Behdad, I heard you. Yes, you replied some tardy, but still hasty. It is good to have others' opinions but I don't like to see you opposing for nothing. You apparently wrote to Connie but I'm answering to you, Behdad. On Sun, 9 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > [...] In short: There's much more to do than "translating" > the Microsoft list of blah blah. [...] Yes, there's much more to do but that's not enough reason for us to ignore minor (as you assume) things. > In fact I checked the IranL10nInfo as soon as Omid posted the > link, but well, had a look at the discussions and the spec, > and apparently closed the window and continued my work. You don't need to mention that. It is clear that you have studied it enough, and it is interesting that you've got so many comments from that glance. > 1) I see no apparent benefit (to anyone) in preparing a patch for > Microsoft: they don't apply it. Well, I'm not quitting because you think like that. > 2) The working group apparently didn't look at the > persiancomputing archives and other sources: we've already > answered most of the questions, So where do you think that information has come from? > but if they are lazy and want us to go say write this in that > column, No, we've got more important things to do. Is that what I asked?? Or is that the answer to my considering and respecting your ideas? > 3) As I said before, they are translating stuff, not > gathering the Iran's locale information. We are translating those that should be translated and gathering those locale information that is required. We are fixing mistakes here or trying to make them as little as possible, and not introducing new functionality. > In Iran no one uses anything like the AM/PM of English. I already know about that. There are some defined properties that have to have some values regardless of the locale instead of returning blank results. When the clock is set to 12-hour mode (since this is possible for every locale) the time is ambiguous without an AM/PM designator. That is all the choice in front of us, so it's better to produce an acceptable output rather than a non-sense one. > Still, in their list you see they have translated AM/PM to > Ghaf.Zad./Beh.Zad., [...] Look again. It is "Sobh/Be.Zad." I believe "Ba'd az Zohr" makes sense for every PM time except at the exact 12:00 O'clock. "Asr" works but from 6 on it sounds odd (as it is in Linux). For AM, "Ghaf.Zad" or "Ghabl az Zohr" is unusual (as it is in Windows). > 4) The discussion around "Mordad" vs "Amordad" suggested that > either at least some of the people involved have been out of > country for such a long time, or they are that kind of people > that will refuse to use Arabic words! No offense meant, no > war please. If you're meaning me, yes, I'm out of country for about a year. So what? I'm not eligible to say about my country and my culture? What about yourself? Did you find "Mordad" Arabic, or "Amordad"?! Well, you're keeping so conservative man... no war! > Believe me, I read how they changed it to > "Mordad" and how open to ideas the group is. But still > that's the impression it left in me. It is still "Amordad"; I was going to point it out here to discuss, as I did not find about it in the archives. > 5) Forum discussion is not the most effective way of > communication; email is much more efficient. That's why I'm here. > 6) No one invited my/us to help, so one can't blame me/us for > not doing that :-). [...] You're speaking from your own side. I first wrote to Roozbeh and he has been kind and helping all the way. Moreover, I am not pushing or blaming anyone here, nor I see any reason for that. But if you really want to give a hand I'll appreciate. > Well, fortunately enough Omid is hanging around here and will > (hopefully) essentially move the discussion here :). It's already moved here. I hope we can have positive discussions here, Behdad. > Cheers, > behdad > More Cheers :P, Omid ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Hi Omid, A couple of points: The Jalaali calendar, can you please tell me in which of the ECMA standards is it defined? The same about the locale definitions. And next: You are saying that the Mono and DotGNU projects "are published under noncommercial shared-source licenses". I'm almost sure this is not the case. "shared-source" is the old Microsoft trick. Both of this two platforms (Mono and DotGNU) can be used for commercial purposes as well as non-commercial, both for free. You can read more about why a noncommercial-only license is not the best license at http://www.fsf.org/ Later, behdad On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > <> > > > Hello every body, especially my friends at FarsiWeb, > > I'm trying to point out some things here (even though you might already > know) about .NET and our project. > > For your information: > > The .NET Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) and the C# programming > language were submitted to ECMA and ISO/IEC International > standardization organizations a couple of years ago. The submissions > were ratified as standards after thorough investigations as: > > Standard ECMA-334 (C#) > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm > > Standard ECMA-335 (CLI) > http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm > > Standard ISO/IEC 23270 (C#) > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=36 > 768 > > Standard ISO/IEC 23271 (CLI) > http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=36 > 769 > > This resulted in raising many new open source movements over .NET in the > ICT community, amongst which there are three major projects by third > parties that intend to implement versions of the .NET Framework > conforming to the base implementations that Microsoft has done or is > already underway. Those are: > > The Ximian's Mono Project sponsored by UNIX > http://www.go-mono.com > > Free Software Foundation's Portable .NET > http://www.dotgnu.org/pnet.html > > Corel's Rotor (Microsoft SSCLI) for FreeBSD > http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/sscli > > > All of these implementations are published under noncommercial > shared-source licenses. This means we will have .NET applications > running on a vast number of platforms quite soon, to name a handful: > Linux, Windows, Solaris, FreeBSD, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. We have also a > choice of more than 20 programming languages to choose from: APL, COBOL, > Component Pascal, Eiffel, Fortran, Haskell, Jscript.NET, Mercury, > Oberon, Pascal, Perl, Python, Smalltalk, Visual Basic.NET, C# , Managed > C++, etc. > > To make applications more interoperable between different platforms, all > of the implementations of CLI consider implementing the fundamental > namespaces in the .NET Framework Class Library that reflect closely to > what Microsoft releases. These don't include namespaces such as > Microsoft.*, yet include those that are referred to as pure .NET > namespaces which System.Globalization namespace is one of them. > > The System.Globalization is also available in .NET Compact Framework - a > lighter version of the framework that installs on handheld devices. > > In the "Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET" project (IranL10nInfo > for short) we have selected to work only on those parts of .NET that are > in the System.Globalization namespace (pure .NET). Any changes that > Microsoft mekes on them are indirectly ported to every non-Microsoft > implementations of the Class Library. > > Moreover, this project will automatically produce a good layout of > information fields that we can simply use for other languages like Tajik > and Afghan. > > > So, we are trying to resolve some locale issues far beyond Microsoft - a > big name. > > > > All the best, > Omid > __ > Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET > http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/ > > > Other Open Source developments over ECMA CLI: > > Intel Lab's OCL (Open CLI Library) > http://sourceforge.net/projects/ocl/ > > Platform.NET > http://sourceforge.net/projects/platformdotnet/ > > > > Articles: > > Linux World - Bringing the CLI to Open Source (Article) > http://www.linuxworld.com/story/39216.htm?DE=1 > > Devx - Peeking under the Lid of Open Source .NET CLI Implementations > http://www.devx.com/devx/article/9725 > > > > Microsoft Open Source: > > MSDN - ECMA Standardization > http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/ecma/ > > MSDN - The Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) > http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/using/understanding/cli > > Microsoft Share Source Home Page: > http://www.microsoft.com/sharedsource/ > > > > --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Hi Connie and others, I'm replying to this old mail of you. I reply to mails quite late these days (sigh). Well, man, you have been in this business for a relatively long time and depth now. You know what's going on around, what a mess. And add to that coding the support we all talk about here for different applications, that would be a lot of work. We gotta somehow handle that all. In fact, PersianComputing is one of the lists that I don't spend that much time on, as there are always people to keep the discussion rolling. There are other lists (read: strategic places) that if Roozbeh and I do not have an eye on, they will do mistakes that will take a couple of years to fix. In short: There's much more to do than "translating" the Microsoft list of blah blah. And I'm using "translate" here for a reason (to follow). In fact I checked the IranL10nInfo as soon as Omid posted the link, but well, had a look at the discussions and the spec, and apparently closed the window and continued my work. Why? Here is a short list of my PERSONAL reasons, please no war: 1) I see no apparent benefit (to anyone) in preparing a patch for Microsoft: they don't apply it. 2) The working group apparently didn't look at the persiancomputing archives and other sources: we've already answered most of the questions, but if they are lazy and want us to go say write this in that column, No, we've got more important things to do. 3) As I said before, they are translating stuff, not gathering the Iran's locale information. I give an example: In Iran no one uses anything like the AM/PM of English. Still, in their list you see they have translated AM/PM to Ghaf.Zad./Beh.Zad., which definitely first appeared in Microsoft Windows. You ask me and I tell you we don't use them in Persian, and if you insist on having a translation for that, "Sobh/Asr" is a best fit. 4) The discussion around "Mordad" vs "Amordad" suggested that either at least some of the people involved have been out of country for such a long time, or they are that kind of people that will refuse to use Arabic words! No offense meant, no war please. Believe me, I read how they changed it to "Mordad" and how open to ideas the group is. But still that's the impression it left in me. 5) Forum discussion is not the most effective way of communication; email is much more efficient. 6) No one invited my/us to help, so one can't blame me/us for not doing that :-). It's yet another project that intersects with my interests, but I already got so many open ones... Well, fortunately enough Omid is hanging around here and will (hopefully) essentially move the discussion here :). Cheers, behdad On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote: [...] > That is to be expected that they aren't jumping up and down for joy about > your project. They've reiterated their stance on Microsoft often enough. > If you ask Microsoft to help you with your Linux project, you might also > get the same warm reception, right? However, from what I've observed, the > Farsiweb-Microsoft relationship has been mutally beneficial even when > there is no obvious profit to either side. > > > I'm not exactly sure what you want FarsiWeb to do beyond what they're > already doing. Even to look over your data would require time they don't > have... [...] > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jon D. wrote: > http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf > http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf Thanks, Jon. I guess these are hacked Monaco and Times New Roman although I didn't look too carefully. Meanwhile, Peter has sent me a keyboard and wonderful documentation which I'm still trying out. It does look like MS Arial Unicode and TITUS can handle the few extra Tajik characters although both fonts are more about function than appearance and not so practical for webuse. That's why people resort to hacking, I suppose. Still, they are a lot better than nothing and maybe I can get back on the project I'd shelved earlier. Too bad I didn't ask here earlier! Thanks again for checking. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
I was amazed when I got my Ukranian friend read www.ozodi.org texts. He was actually reading Persian!!! Omid > --- Jon D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm not sure if you're already aware of this, but > www.ozodi.org run by Radio Free Europe distributes these Tajik fonts: > > http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf > http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf > > -Jon D. > > > > --- C Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Peter, > > > > Please send me your Tajik keyboard and we can > > discuss it further off the > > list. I don't think Arial Unicode MS will do but > > TITUS may work. I'll > > have to check. My particular project was for the > > web so even if we do > > find a font, it will boil down to the eternal > > question of whether to > > embed, use graphics or force the user to download > > the font (or some > > combination thereof.) > > > > -Connie > > > > On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote: > > > > > Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably) > > Code2000 by James Kass or > > > (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to > > check the latter ones. I am > > > quite certain that there are a couple of > > Russian-made (not hacked) fonts > > > around, too. > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM > > > To: Linguasoft > > > Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing' > > > Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote: > > > > > > > It's very easy to type Tajik using a "Phonetic" > > (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic > > > > keyboard. > > > > > > With which font though? I could only find hacked > > fonts. > > > > > > -Connie > > > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
I'm not sure if you're already aware of this, but www.ozodi.org run by Radio Free Europe distributes these Tajik fonts: http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf -Jon D. --- C Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Peter, > > Please send me your Tajik keyboard and we can > discuss it further off the > list. I don't think Arial Unicode MS will do but > TITUS may work. I'll > have to check. My particular project was for the > web so even if we do > find a font, it will boil down to the eternal > question of whether to > embed, use graphics or force the user to download > the font (or some > combination thereof.) > > -Connie > > On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote: > > > Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably) > Code2000 by James Kass or > > (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to > check the latter ones. I am > > quite certain that there are a couple of > Russian-made (not hacked) fonts > > around, too. > > > > Peter > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM > > To: Linguasoft > > Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing' > > Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo > > > > > > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote: > > > > > It's very easy to type Tajik using a "Phonetic" > (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic > > > keyboard. > > > > With which font though? I could only find hacked > fonts. > > > > -Connie http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing __ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
So (U+0434 U+0436) is apparently a heritage from Russian, which does not have the U+04B7 glyph and therefore substitutes a digraph. BTW, http://www.geonames.de/alphtz.html suggests U+01E7 as transliteration of U+04B7. So we have a few more renderings, i.e. (transliterated from Cyrillic Tajik) and [or ?] (transliterated from Arabic Tajik). Peter -Original Message- From: Roozbeh Pournader [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:45 AM To: Linguasoft Cc: 'PersianComputing' Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo On Fri, 2004-04-30 at 13:47, Linguasoft wrote: > The Cyrillic alphabet uses two graphemes to > represent the sound of Perso-Arabic . Similar as used in French > transliteration of Arabic, etc. I can't agree. The spelling is clearly "ÑÐÒÐÐÓ" which you can see has only six letters. No digraph for the sound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_language roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Fri, 2004-04-30 at 13:47, Linguasoft wrote: > The Cyrillic alphabet uses two graphemes to > represent the sound of Perso-Arabic . Similar as used in French > transliteration of Arabic, etc. I can't agree. The spelling is clearly "ÑÐÒÐÐÓ" which you can see has only six letters. No digraph for the sound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajik_language roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Thu, 2004-04-29 at 23:11, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Perhaps we should add Tajik vs. Tajiki to the list of wars ;). ISO 639 calls it "Tajik". Tajiks themselves call it "ÑÐÒÐÐÓ". So it's the same Persian vs Farsi thing. Go for Tajik! roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Peter, Please send me your Tajik keyboard and we can discuss it further off the list. I don't think Arial Unicode MS will do but TITUS may work. I'll have to check. My particular project was for the web so even if we do find a font, it will boil down to the eternal question of whether to embed, use graphics or force the user to download the font (or some combination thereof.) -Connie On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote: > Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably) Code2000 by James Kass or > (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to check the latter ones. I am > quite certain that there are a couple of Russian-made (not hacked) fonts > around, too. > > Peter > > > -Original Message- > From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM > To: Linguasoft > Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing' > Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo > > > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote: > > > It's very easy to type Tajik using a "Phonetic" (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic > > keyboard. > > With which font though? I could only find hacked fonts. > > -Connie > > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Arial Unicode MS should do, plus (probably) Code2000 by James Kass or (possibly) Bitstream TITUS Unicode -- I've to check the latter ones. I am quite certain that there are a couple of Russian-made (not hacked) fonts around, too. Peter -Original Message- From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM To: Linguasoft Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing' Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote: > It's very easy to type Tajik using a "Phonetic" (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic > keyboard. With which font though? I could only find hacked fonts. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
"Tadzhik" is also valid, as a (re-)transliteration of the language's name as spelled in Cyrillic. The Cyrillic alphabet uses two graphemes to represent the sound of Perso-Arabic . Similar as used in French transliteration of Arabic, etc. Peter ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Linguasoft wrote: > It's very easy to type Tajik using a "Phonetic" (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic > keyboard. With which font though? I could only find hacked fonts. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Dear Connie (et al), It's very easy to type Tajik using a "Phonetic" (i.e., mnemonic) Cyrillic keyboard. I wrote a Keyman keyboard driver for Kazakh that should include all those Cyrillic fancy characters needed for Tajik. Want to try it? Best regards, Peter E. Hauer Linguasoft ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Perhaps we should add Tajik vs. Tajiki to the list of wars ;). Good idea! Merriam-Webster even has "Irani" as an English word in case you need more suggestions for your list. I'm sticking with the Oxford English Dictionary... -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote: > On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > > > For example, Tajiki is written in the Cyrillic alphabet instead of > > Arabic. ;) > > [1] The English word is Tajik (and sometimes Tadzhik) but not Tajiki. (I > also only found this out recently!) I guess Tajik is more correct. While Tajik is listed in Merriam-Webster at m-w.com, but in their Indo-Europian languages chart they have named it Tajiki: http://m-w.com/mw/table/indoeuro.htm Perhaps we should add Tajik vs. Tajiki to the list of wars ;). > -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
<> Hello every body, especially my friends at FarsiWeb, I'm trying to point out some things here (even though you might already know) about .NET and our project. For your information: The .NET Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) and the C# programming language were submitted to ECMA and ISO/IEC International standardization organizations a couple of years ago. The submissions were ratified as standards after thorough investigations as: Standard ECMA-334 (C#) http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm Standard ECMA-335 (CLI) http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm Standard ISO/IEC 23270 (C#) http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=36 768 Standard ISO/IEC 23271 (CLI) http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/CatalogueDetailPage.CatalogueDetail?CSNUMBER=36 769 This resulted in raising many new open source movements over .NET in the ICT community, amongst which there are three major projects by third parties that intend to implement versions of the .NET Framework conforming to the base implementations that Microsoft has done or is already underway. Those are: The Ximian's Mono Project sponsored by UNIX http://www.go-mono.com Free Software Foundation's Portable .NET http://www.dotgnu.org/pnet.html Corel's Rotor (Microsoft SSCLI) for FreeBSD http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/sscli All of these implementations are published under noncommercial shared-source licenses. This means we will have .NET applications running on a vast number of platforms quite soon, to name a handful: Linux, Windows, Solaris, FreeBSD, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. We have also a choice of more than 20 programming languages to choose from: APL, COBOL, Component Pascal, Eiffel, Fortran, Haskell, Jscript.NET, Mercury, Oberon, Pascal, Perl, Python, Smalltalk, Visual Basic.NET, C# , Managed C++, etc. To make applications more interoperable between different platforms, all of the implementations of CLI consider implementing the fundamental namespaces in the .NET Framework Class Library that reflect closely to what Microsoft releases. These don't include namespaces such as Microsoft.*, yet include those that are referred to as pure .NET namespaces which System.Globalization namespace is one of them. The System.Globalization is also available in .NET Compact Framework - a lighter version of the framework that installs on handheld devices. In the "Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET" project (IranL10nInfo for short) we have selected to work only on those parts of .NET that are in the System.Globalization namespace (pure .NET). Any changes that Microsoft mekes on them are indirectly ported to every non-Microsoft implementations of the Class Library. Moreover, this project will automatically produce a good layout of information fields that we can simply use for other languages like Tajik and Afghan. So, we are trying to resolve some locale issues far beyond Microsoft - a big name. All the best, Omid __ Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/ Other Open Source developments over ECMA CLI: Intel Lab's OCL (Open CLI Library) http://sourceforge.net/projects/ocl/ Platform.NET http://sourceforge.net/projects/platformdotnet/ Articles: Linux World - Bringing the CLI to Open Source (Article) http://www.linuxworld.com/story/39216.htm?DE=1 Devx - Peeking under the Lid of Open Source .NET CLI Implementations http://www.devx.com/devx/article/9725 Microsoft Open Source: MSDN - ECMA Standardization http://msdn.microsoft.com/net/ecma/ MSDN - The Common Language Infrastructure (CLI) http://msdn.microsoft.com/netframework/using/understanding/cli Microsoft Share Source Home Page: http://www.microsoft.com/sharedsource/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Dear Behdad, Roozbeh, Connie, Thanks for your replies and explaining me. First of all, Iâm sorry if you found my last post antagonistic in anyway. Iâm not expecting FarsiWeb anything more than what they are doing (I donât see myself in that stance either). All I wanted to say is donât avoid something just because you guess it might not be of your taste (or it can simply be my conception only). I am not signifying working on Microsoft platform at all. I am specifically calling to .NET as a technology which is a world standard right now, and we are noticing mistakes in it pertaining Persian and Iran. *Please go on to my next post for my explanations.* And thank you very much for the locale info you provided to us. I'm sure I could never find people anywhere else as useful for our work as those I'm finding here. I hope we can do a good job with your help. Regards, Omid ->> ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: > For example, Tajiki is written in the Cyrillic alphabet instead of > Arabic. ;) Yeah, well, since I found out you can't actually type it unless you buy those stand-alone programs (without the source code!), I'm going to cite the Tajik [1] example every time people suggest Persian script should be "reformed" and written in Latin chars because it's less headaches. How easy or hard to implement seems to depend only on how much interest there is, not on technical hurdles. (Yes, I just read the BBC article Roozbeh mentioned!) [1] The English word is Tajik (and sometimes Tadzhik) but not Tajiki. (I also only found this out recently!) -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 20:05, C Bobroff wrote: > > About your suggestion, however, we (i.e. our team) have no idea about > > Afghan and Tajik languages. > It's all one language, different conventions. For example, Tajiki is written in the Cyrillic alphabet instead of Arabic. ;) roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
FarsiWeb and its mission (was RE: IranL10nInfo)
On Wed, 2004-04-28 at 11:40, Omid K. Rad wrote: > I was rather disappointed when I was told that FarsiWeb is > not interested in Microsoft .NET technology at all. Even though I value > all the great achievements that FarsiWeb has found, I personally believe > that resolving Persian computing issues should not be selective, > especially for a group that has nationally accepted this mission The FarsiWeb Project is a research project funded by Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc (a private company) and a few sponsors [1], with a very very limited budget and personnel. Why is that that you think it should resolve *all* Persian computing issues? Individual members of FarsiWeb also represent High Council of Informatics of Iran in the Unicode Consortium and are active in a few other national and international organizations. But the group has not ever been assigned any responsibility apart from its certain limited contracts. In other terms, we have not nationally accepted any mission, and we do not even get any funds from the Iranian government for continuing to represent them in the Unicode Consortium and ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2. That aside, we would love to contribute to proper implementation of Persian and Iranian requirements in any piece of software, which is the reason we are active on the PersianComputing mailing list. We have already shared an internal document with Omid on what we consider requirements of Iran's Persian, and we will try to review his final document and provide comments to him. He has suggested that we even support his final proposal, which we may decide to do at the end. But we have lots of other work to do, and we can't take responsibility for everything, specially any software that doesn't come with source code. Roozbeh Pournader Technical Manager of the FarsiWeb Project President of Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. [1] Current sponsors are Sharif University of Technology and Cyber7 Inc. Previous sponsors included Science and Arts Foundation, and High Council of Informatics of Iran. FarsiWeb welcomes other sponsors or contractors. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > I regard your good ideas... Thank you for the kind words. Most of what is there is in fact, stuff I've learned on this list and can also be found in the archives. > About your suggestion, however, we (i.e. our team) have no idea about > Afghan and Tajik languages. It's all one language, different conventions. I'm just saying that's an obvious area where someone needs to do something even if just coordinate and facilitate. You could really do a great service by getting the interest and funds together to get a nice font made from scratch for example. Like Tahoma but more "Persian" looking. Open Type and with all the Persian/Tajik characters and the extended Latin subset needed to transliterate them. I've been shouting this need from the rooftops over here but they don't take me seriously. You might have better luck. There are many other projects, in fact. > accepted, and I was rather disappointed when I was told that FarsiWeb is > not interested in Microsoft .NET technology at all. That is to be expected that they aren't jumping up and down for joy about your project. They've reiterated their stance on Microsoft often enough. If you ask Microsoft to help you with your Linux project, you might also get the same warm reception, right? However, from what I've observed, the Farsiweb-Microsoft relationship has been mutally beneficial even when there is no obvious profit to either side. I'm not exactly sure what you want FarsiWeb to do beyond what they're already doing. Even to look over your data would require time they don't have... > Anyways, I'm writing to this mailing list to also receive motives beside > hands. ;) I'm sure there are a lot of people listening who will be very happy to hear about you and your team so just find your niche and don't lose hope-- as your name implies! -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Dear Omid, Not talking formally, but just my personal opinion: We cannot work on Microsoft platform, for a zillion of reason, including but not limited to, that we cannot afford their products. behdad On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: > Dear Connie, > > I regard your good ideas, and I can honestly say that your Persian Word > Processing website pushed us a lot forward in managing our task. During > the IranL10nInfo draft you can see many references back to your site. > Thank you. > > About your suggestion, however, we (i.e. our team) have no idea about > Afghan and Tajik languages. Moreover, for this very project that we are > putting a lot of -actually nonprofit- time and energy for the familiar > language of Persian, we're still not sure to what extent it will be > accepted, and I was rather disappointed when I was told that FarsiWeb is > not interested in Microsoft .NET technology at all. Even though I value > all the great achievements that FarsiWeb has found, I personally believe > that resolving Persian computing issues should not be selective, > especially for a group that has nationally accepted this mission, and > especially about a platform that is going to be the infrastructure of > somewhat more than 90% of the clients (mainly Windows). > > Anyways, I'm writing to this mailing list to also receive motives beside > hands. ;) > > > Regards, > Omid K. Rad --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: IranL10nInfo
Dear Connie, I regard your good ideas, and I can honestly say that your Persian Word Processing website pushed us a lot forward in managing our task. During the IranL10nInfo draft you can see many references back to your site. Thank you. About your suggestion, however, we (i.e. our team) have no idea about Afghan and Tajik languages. Moreover, for this very project that we are putting a lot of -actually nonprofit- time and energy for the familiar language of Persian, we're still not sure to what extent it will be accepted, and I was rather disappointed when I was told that FarsiWeb is not interested in Microsoft .NET technology at all. Even though I value all the great achievements that FarsiWeb has found, I personally believe that resolving Persian computing issues should not be selective, especially for a group that has nationally accepted this mission, and especially about a platform that is going to be the infrastructure of somewhat more than 90% of the clients (mainly Windows). Anyways, I'm writing to this mailing list to also receive motives beside hands. ;) Regards, Omid K. Rad <> http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft > -Original Message- > From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: April 27, 2004 7:33 PM > To: Omid K. Rad > Cc: 'PersianComputing' > Subject: Re: IranL10nInfo > > > > <> > > Omid, > > Thanks and good idea. > > Why not also include Afghan and Tajik data? No one is looking out for > them. For example, I recently tried to figure out the date in > Afghanistan. There are dozens of online converters but all they've > done I think is take FarsiWeb's Jalali converter and change Esfand to > Hut, etc with no attention to the different way the leap year is > calculated making the calendar useless. (Luckily someone finally > provided me with a trustworthy off-line calendar.) Then I tried to > type a paragraph in Tajik and the best font I could find was a hacked > Times New Roman which was unusable. A side benefit to taking the > other "Persians" into consideration is that it brings up issues of > Iran Persian which might have otherwise gone unnoticed. > > Just a humble suggestion. > > -Connie > ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: IranL10nInfo
> <> Omid, Thanks and good idea. Why not also include Afghan and Tajik data? No one is looking out for them. For example, I recently tried to figure out the date in Afghanistan. There are dozens of online converters but all they've done I think is take FarsiWeb's Jalali converter and change Esfand to Hut, etc with no attention to the different way the leap year is calculated making the calendar useless. (Luckily someone finally provided me with a trustworthy off-line calendar.) Then I tried to type a paragraph in Tajik and the best font I could find was a hacked Times New Roman which was unusable. A side benefit to taking the other "Persians" into consideration is that it brings up issues of Iran Persian which might have otherwise gone unnoticed. Just a humble suggestion. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
