Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

Thierry In what arcane alternate reality do comments drive code? You are still talking about a hack. How is using this different to parsing a User Agent string? different method but same result. Adding to this, it's  not a valid way of writing your code, as mentioned on another thread. The valida

[WSG] Redesign of a danish library website - help/comments

Hi all Next week bibliotek.dk [Denmark] (url http://bibliotek.dk) is going to redesign their website "In bibliotek.dk you will find records of all items published in Denmark as well as all items found in the Danish public & research libraries." There is a beta version ready http://proto.bibli

Re: [WSG] But why didn't Eric use positioning

Patrick H. Lauke wrote: The same happens when you use floats inside a container: if you don't have something as the last item of the container to clear them, the container will collapse. That's not always true. If the container is also floated, it DOES expand to contain child floats. *

[WSG] Image rollovers

Hi guys   I’m creating a site which will be using rollovers but what is the best way to create the rollovers, use _javascript_ or use CSS to control them.   I have used _javascript_ at the moment but I seem to be having some problems with firefox and images, firefox seems to put some ki

RE: [WSG] Image rollovers

You can do it all using css. Try this link: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites Hopefully that helps. Cheers, James From: "Kevin Arrowsmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To: Subject: [WSG] Image rollovers Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:52:56 +0100 Hi guys I'm

Re: [WSG] Site check: color.rdpdesign.com

I expected the manual inputs to accept hex values since that's typically how we work with colors on the web. Perhaps you could offer the option of using hex or decimal?Steve Ferguson - Illumit L.L.C. On Oct 8, 2005, at 6:25 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:Hey all, Thanks for the che

Re: [WSG] Site check: color.rdpdesign.com

On 10/9/05, Steve Ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I expected the manual inputs to accept hex values since that's typically how we work with colors on the web. Perhaps you could offer the option of using hex or decimal?Steve Ferguson - Illumit L.L.C. I will, later. -- - C Mo

[WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

hello all,   ive dug myself into a hole trying to create a  3 div-semi liquid layout with expandable drop shadows.- The drop shadow method im using isnt perfect for this application but I cant find a better one as i want an eqaul shadow on all 4 sides of the div. I cant remember where i g

Re: [WSG] Meta Keywords?

If you mean for search engines, then yes, I think you are correct. However, there may be other valid reasons for using metadata. Does anyone remember when Anil Dash (from Six Apart) beat out 2 SEO companies and won a SEO competition in 2004? http://www.dashes.com/anil/2004/07/27/optimizing_sear

RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

Both links point to the same page.     From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 2:52 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-   hello all,  

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

Hi James, > Adding to this, it's not a valid way of writing your code, as > mentioned on another thread. AFAIK, the discussion you're referring to didn't take us anywhere. It has been said that Michael Landis summed up the thread pretty well saying: "I think we're getting very close to a debate o

RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

  sorry thats   http://mcmonagle.biz/test.htm    http://mcmonagle.biz/test2.htm     

RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

  sorry all, i've found the tutorial that might help me with this problem so i will try and figure it out on my own. thanks

Re: [WSG] Redesign of a danish library website - help/comments

Soren Johannessen wrote: > Next week bibliotek.dk [Denmark] (url http://bibliotek.dk) is going to > redesign their website > "In bibliotek.dk you will find records of all items published in Denmark > as well as all items found in the Danish public & research libraries." > > There is a beta versi

[WSG] Avoiding the evil

I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website and for the most part can totally avoid using . But in the example below I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using : All correspondence should be addressed to: The Secretary Your Club PO Box 999 Anytown VIC 3000 H

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

This sounds like it's going to turn into another "let's all figure out how to use the tag" thing so let me pre-empt that. I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break. The one th

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Hi Hope, There is nothing evil about the element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your example, you are using correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the element instead of . Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com Original Message From: Hope Stewart Date:

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

On 10/9/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's totally irrelevant. If 2 days ago you knew your article was flawed > then why posting a link to it? I only mentioned it because it was published exactly 365 days earlier on a very similar topic (linking CSS to html files). I was amus

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the linebreak has serious semantic value. Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate thatthe actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example fordeomnstration / readability. This is usually

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Richard Czeiger wrote: I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break. - Original Message - From: "Hope Stewart" I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using : All corre

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Tantek Celik talks about the and tags in his Elements of Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view My suggestion would be that is not necessary when the same visual effect can be achieved with around each address item which is then style sp

[WSG] Placement of company logo

I've only started using web standards this year. This list has been an invaluable source of knowledge (thanks everyone -- keep it up!). There was a thread earlier this year that discussed how images that are presentational and not part of the content should be placed as background images through

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: Hi Hope, There is nothing evil about the element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your example, you are using correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the element instead of . Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com I agree with you ab

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Hope Stewart wrote: All correspondence should be addressed to: The Secretary Your Club PO Box 999 Anytown VIC 3000 This may be a good case for an tag: All correspondence should be addressed to: The Secretary Your Club PO Box 999 Anytown VIC 3000 It could be argued that instead of the s,

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

On 10/10/05 9:47 AM, "Jon Tan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tantek Celik talks about the and tags in his Elements of > Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: > http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said was used only for informati

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Jon Tan said: > My suggestion would be that is not necessary when the same visual > effect can be achieved with around each address item which is then > style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically > useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: > http

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

All correspondence should be addressed to: The Secretary Your Club PO Box 999 Anytown VIC 3000 a) This is IMHO not good use for an element (context matters). b) s? Why? The're inline and they're overhead here. -- Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com **

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

Hope Stewart wrote: > There was a thread earlier this year that discussed how images that > are presentational and not part of the content should be placed as > background images through the css and not coded into the html with > the . This makes a lot of sense. > > With all sites I've worked on, I

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Hope Stewart wrote: How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next? Non-CSS browsers dictates where to use and/or oth

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to avoid using a element of two. kind regards Terrence Wood. The hCard format ad

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said was used only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that might be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about . I'll have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a pleasure! Y

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Hope Stewart wrote: I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said was used only for information about the author Which holds true if the is used to mark up: - the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate site and you're giving the company's contact details

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

Hope Stewart said: > With all sites I've worked on, I'd say that the company logo falls into > this presentational category. But I wasn't aware of this concept for my > first few sites, so I have some sites where the company logo is part of > the html and others where it is part of the css. Coca-

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:51:49 +1000, Hope Stewart wrote: > What do others think? I am quite happy to be persuaded otherwise by a sound > logical argument/discussion! I have decided to (generally) make the logo part of the html. Its part of the content, the company's branding is an important element

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:47:42 +0100, Jon Tan wrote: > My suggestion would be that is not necessary when the same visual > effect can be achieved with around each address item which is then > style span{display:block} with CSS. Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just us

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Mike Brown wrote: Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use in the address example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different elements are (usually) on separate lines? You answered your own question: Parts of an address are *usually*, but *not always*, written on separate

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

All correspondence should be addressed to: The Secretary Your Club PO Box 999 Anytown VIC 3000 How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

If is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html The ADDRESS element specifies such information as address, signature and authorship for the current document, and typically placed at the top or bottom of the document. When used with %text, th

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Terrence Wood wrote: has absolutely no semantic value, That's not quite true. The s used in the previous examples do have semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly, that might not be much, but it's not nothing. ** T

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? Hi Lea, The use instead of was to allow for semantic class names as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference but I w

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Graham Cook wrote: If is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation. ** The discussion list for http://webstand

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

>> What do others think? 1 vote here for always making the logo a regular and part of the html markup. reasoning for me is a pretty simple one. its content! :) cheers, pete ~~~ Peter Ottery ~ Creative Director Daemon Pty Ltd 17 Roslyn Gardens Elizabeth Bay NSW 2011 www.daemo

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

If is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/126 - Release Date: 09/10/2005 Hi Graham Without being pedantic, you're qu

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Lea de Groot wrote: Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a div in the first place? What are we gaining that I have missed? It's invalid: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

Thierry - Umm... the first result: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=conditional+comments+are+evil&btnG=Search&meta= is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Apr/0027.html One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best practices using W3C standards based developm

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

My thoughts entirely. I would definitely want the company logo as an IMG element. If your company's site was to be viewed without the use of CSS, would you still want the logo the appear? I would. --adam--On 10/10/05, Peter Ottery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> What do others think?1 vote here fo

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Jon Tan wrote: > The use instead of was to allow for semantic class names > as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also > personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block > level grouping elements in my mark-up. span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these li

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

OK so someone pointed out that would be better for poetry and I agree but with some reservations. does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through as opposed to . Do they pause or say "new line"? I think, w

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:18:51 +0200, Mordechai Peller wrote: > It's invalid: > > What? No, this is used instead of an address element. No one suggested we should put divs inside an address. Jon's reply of matching the hcard microformat is a good one :) Thank you, Jon. warmly, Lea -- Lea de G

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4? If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more: http://www.microfo

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Mordechai Peller wrote: Graham Cook wrote: If is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me. Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation. It hasn't changed. http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/struct/

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Jon Tan wrote: It's arguable whether applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, In many cases, the contact information for a document and that of its site are the same. This is especially true on a "Contact Us" or an "About Us" type page. *

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

James Ellis wrote: One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best practices using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you talk about are a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their software (what happened to fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars and

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

On 10/10/05 11:25 AM, "adam reitsma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I would definitely want the company logo as an IMG element. > > If your company's site was to be viewed without the use of CSS, would you > still want the logo the appear? I would. Really, really good point! Thanks, I hadn't thoug

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

However, there is an argument that has the logo in the CSS particularly for branding purposes. Hear me out...   You put the logo in the CSS. Nice and big and branded etc... Then you make a special logo for, oh I don't know, mobile devices. Small, crisp, pixel perfect. Now your users can see

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

James, > One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best > practices > using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you talk > about are > a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their software (what > happened to > fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars and Di

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

I need to rephrase what I said earlier. If you are using the hcard microformat, or you want to apply styles to each constiuent use . If the previous conditions are not true, then use , because it has much semantic value as and uses less markup. is a generic container for language or style attri

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Crikey, I use all the time. I did not know I was being so naughty. -Original Message- From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 8:48 AM To: Web Standards Group Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of des

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en) people write

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

Now that's a good argument, Richard! And just when I had been persuaded to use . hm. On the second website I ever made using web standards I do have one logo for browsers and a cut-down version for print. But when I was making the site, I didn't know about putting images in the background usin

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

Richard Czeiger wrote: > Doing it this way IS good branding. > It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in > certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will > know what I'm talking about... Good point. This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of co

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

1. Why use spans and not divs when divs are already block level elements. No need for CSS styling. 2. The main compelling reason to use br's is because semanically that is the right way to do it. Not a big deal I though because a line break is a fairly semantically neurtal thing anyways.

Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

I prefer the following IR: Company Name in the stylesheet: #masthead h1 { margin: 0px; padding: 0px; } a { width: Xpx; height: Ypx; overflow: hidden; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; padding-top: Xpx; background: transparent url(images/logo.gif) no-repeat top left; } That way yo

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Peter Firminger wrote: This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant. We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

Richard Czeiger wrote: > That way you don't get "clear.gif" going in your otherwise > semantically nice mark up :o) ... but that way you don't get a clickable logo ;) Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsg

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

oh dear is it just me, or does this TIP method seem like the modern-day version of the spacer gif? On 10/10/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Richard Czeiger wrote:> Doing it this way IS good branding.> It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in> certain cont

Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

Umm actually you do.. Check out www.courtappearances.com.au to see what I'm talking about. Here's the CSS for that: http://www.courtappearances.com.au/styles/style.css R :o) - Original Message - From: "Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

I dont' know how it works in the big leagues over at the W3C but I imagine that there's a fair amount of discussion internally about every single little bit they put into their specs. Also, I have a stong feeling that our little mailing list here actually is a significant player into what the

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

Sorry if this has been discussed before and it may be a little of topic of this thread but I have always wondered why h1 would be used in the header of the page for a logo. I have always thought the h1 element should be the main heading for the content eg. About Us content... This way the hig

Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool search plugi n!

Not much to wory about though. You can download the file open it with a simple text editor and read it. === standardistas.src = # Rollyo Search - Sherlock Plug-in http://rollyo.com/search.html"; update="http://rollyo.com/tools/mozsearch/src.html/rollyo-4080-4886.src";

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: OK so someone pointed out that would be better for poetry That was me. does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through as opposed to . Do they pause or s

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

On 10/9/05, Buddy Quaid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Peter Firminger wrote:>This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web>Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.>>We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street >address is a

[WSG] site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com

I just (hopefully) finished a somewhat complex layout. It's liquid, and has max-width for all the good browsers. As for IE, it has some _javascript_ that forces IE to implement max-width. After that, it's just an untamed liquid layout for the IE users without _javascript_... who probably don't have

[WSG] 2nd Attempt: Main Menu Collapses, Expands in IE & FF

Good morning all, I've racked my brain, but can't seem to figure out the problem. I just launched my site's redesign (www.webnetdesignstudios.com), and although I'm pleased with the initial results I'm still addressing a few bugs. The one that bothers me the most is the fact that the main menu

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Hey Christian. Actually I find when reading an address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after certain elements: street, suburb, state and postcode (these seem to go together for my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost like a license plate)   Saying the whole address wihout pausing

RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

> From: Jon Tan > > I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate > address lines would > be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, > which regardless of > what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by > screen readers. > Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS

Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

Richard Czeiger wrote: > Umm actually you do.. > Check out www.courtappearances.com.au to see what I'm talking about. > Here's the CSS for that: > http://www.courtappearances.com.au/styles/style.css As soon as I read "...you do" I knew what hook you were using ;) It's *very* nice ;) Thierry

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

On 10/10/05 3:38 PM, "Christian Montoya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Read this aloud: > > 909 anystreet > ithaca, new york > > Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need > to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. For this address it doesn't matte

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

Usually when telling someone an address your giving it to them as information which they either have to write down or type in. The pause is usually to let them write it down before you go any further. I wonder if there is a way to make the screen reader say what you want it to say for instanc