Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Buddy Quaid]

Usually when telling someone an address your giving it to them as
information which they either have to write down or type in. The pause
is usually to let them write it down before you go any further. 

I wonder if there is a way to make the screen reader say what you want
it to say for instance if you could preface the whole address with
something like "start address" and then end with "end address" then
they could know that they could just copy and paste that portion
wherever they wanted if they needed it.

Buddy

Richard Czeiger wrote:

  
  
  
  Hey Christian.
  Actually I find when
reading an address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after
certain elements:
  street, 
  suburb, 
  state and postcode
(these seem to go together for my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost
like a license plate)
   
  Saying the whole
address wihout pausing wouldn't make sense
   
   
  R
   
   
  -
Original Message -
  From:
  Christian
Montoya 
  To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
  Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil 
  
  
  
  
  On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  OK
so someone pointed out that  would be better for poetry 
  
That was me. 
  
  
  
does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a
screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through

as opposed to . Do they pause or say "new line"? I think,
when all is 
said and done though that  does seem better for poetry.
  
Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant
to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would
be up to the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was
not lost to the listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e.
cummings, you would have a boatload of   and < br />.
Not pretty at all.
  
Glad we agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when
reading an address aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care
where the line breaks are? Read this aloud: 
  
909 anystreet
ithaca, new york
  
Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we
don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. If we
want it there for the browser that lacks css we would want the < br
/>. Sometimes line breaks are necessary visually, with or without
css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} method would work too. I would
prefer the < br />. 
  
For another example of where I use < br />, I sometimes use it in
forms, where I want line breaks with or without css. 
  
> PS: in terms of the  element itself - check out
what's happening 
> over here! 
> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976
  
  
  
  
The "resource" term looks like a great way to make an address semantic.
  
-- 
- C Montoya
  rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com 


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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Hope Stewart]

On 10/10/05 3:38 PM, "Christian Montoya" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Read this aloud: 
> 
> 909 anystreet
> ithaca, new york
> 
> Did you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need
> to make the line break obvious to the screen reader.

For this address it doesn't matter, but for this real address it does:

Lewisham Road North
Prahran VIC

Perhaps adding a comma at the end of the first line would indicate a pause
to a screen reader?

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Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

Richard Czeiger wrote:
> Umm  actually you do..

> Check out www.courtappearances.com.au to see what I'm talking about.
> Here's the CSS for that:
> http://www.courtappearances.com.au/styles/style.css

As soon as I read "...you do" I knew what hook you were using ;)
It's *very* nice ;)

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com


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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Peter Williams]

> From: Jon Tan
> 
> I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate 
> address lines would 
> be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, 
> which regardless of 
> what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by 
> screen readers. 
> Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e:
> 
> The Secretary,
> Your Club,
> PO Box 999,
> Anytown VIC 3000.

Australia Post address format rules/recommendations don't allow
punctuation. Apparently it messes with the automated sorting.
It'd be good to have a method that was independant of local
quirks and variations.

-- 
Peter Williams
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Richard Czeiger]

Hey Christian.
Actually I find when reading an 
address (or telling it to someone else) I do pause after certain 
elements:
street, 
suburb, 
state and postcode (these seem to 
go together for my internal voice - NSW 2011 - almost like a license 
plate)
 
Saying the whole address wihout 
pausing wouldn't make sense
 
 
R
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: Christian Montoya 

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil 

On 10/9/05, Richard 
Czeiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
OK 
  so someone pointed out that  would be better for poetry 
That was me. 
 
  does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen 
  reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through 
  as opposed to . Do they pause or say "new line"? I 
  think, when all is said and done though that  does seem better 
  for poetry.
Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant 
to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would be up to 
the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was not lost to the 
listener. If you tried to style a poem by e.e. cummings, you would have a 
boatload of   and < br />. Not pretty at all.Glad we 
agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when reading an address 
aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care where the line breaks are? 
Read this aloud: 909 anystreetithaca, new yorkDid you stop 
at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the 
line break obvious to the screen reader. If we want it there for the browser 
that lacks css we would want the < br />. Sometimes line breaks are 
necessary visually, with or without css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} 
method would work too. I would prefer the < br />. For another 
example of where I use < br />, I sometimes use it in forms, where I want 
line breaks with or without css. > PS: in terms of the 
 element itself - check out what's happening > over here! 
> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976 
The "resource" term looks like a great way to 
make an address semantic.-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com 

[WSG] 2nd Attempt: Main Menu Collapses, Expands in IE & FF

[standards]

Good morning all,

I've racked my brain, but can't seem to figure out the problem. I just launched 
my site's
redesign (www.webnetdesignstudios.com), and although I'm pleased with the 
initial results I'm
still addressing a few bugs. The one that bothers me the most is the fact that 
the main menu
(i.e. our company, services, portfolio, etc.) collapses, expands and sometinmes 
shifts in IE and
FF when a link is clicked. It seems to work fine in Opera.

The following is a CSS code snippet that controls the main menu, which I 
grabbed from
Listamatic:

/* MAIN NAVIGATION BAR
*/
#mainNav
{text-align: center;
 text-transform: uppercase;
 letter-spacing: 1px;
 margin: 0;
 padding: 3px 0 5px 0;
 border-top: 1px solid #999;
 border-bottom: 1px solid #999;
 background-color: #CCC4BE;}

#mainNav ul
{margin: 0;
 padding: 0;
 list-style-type: none;}

#mainNav ul li
{display: inline;
 line-height: 1.5;}

#mainNav ul li a:link, #mainNav a:active, #mainNav a:visited
{color: #000;
 font: bold 0.7em tahoma, sans-serif;
 text-decoration: none;
 border-right: 1px solid #999;
 padding: 10px 10px 9px 10px;}

#mainNav ul li a:hover
{color: #fff;
 text-decoration: none;
 background-color: #FF5100;}

#mainNav #pipe
{border-left: 1px solid #999;}

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Kind regards,
Mario



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[WSG] site check: liquid.rdpdesign.com

[Christian Montoya]

I just (hopefully) finished a somewhat complex layout. It's liquid, and has max-width for all the good browsers. As for IE, it has some _javascript_ that forces IE to implement max-width. After that, it's just an untamed liquid layout for the IE users without _javascript_... who probably don't have big screens. 
My intention is for this to be "robust" from 600 px wide and up. I don't know how it behaves in non-pc browsers, though. Site check? http://liquid.rdpdesign.com
-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/9/05, Buddy Quaid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter Firminger wrote:>This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web>Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.>>We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
>address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)>people write out addresses.>>>I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago andgot reamed for it.
**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See 
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**Actually, they laugh at us because they are dumb. I really don't care. This is a good, educational thread for me. 
-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/9/05, Richard Czeiger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
OK so someone pointed out that  would be better for poetry That was me.  
 does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from ascreen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through as opposed to . Do they pause or say "new line"? I think, when all is
said and done though that  does seem better for poetry.Actually, I think I learned in poetry class that most poems are meant to be read continuously. In some poems line breaks matter, but it would be up to the screen readers to ensure that the structure of a poem was not lost to the listener. If you tried to style a poem by 
e.e. cummings, you would have a boatload of   and < br />. Not pretty at all.Glad we agree. Back to the topic at hand, why would you pause when reading an address aloud? If you tell me your address, do I really care where the line breaks are? Read this aloud: 
909 anystreetithaca, new yorkDid you stop at the line break? Did it matter? My point is that we don't need to make the line break obvious to the screen reader. If we want it there for the browser that lacks css we would want the < br />. Sometimes line breaks are necessary visually, with or without css. Otherwise, the span{display:block;} method would work too. I would prefer the < br />. 
For another example of where I use < br />, I sometimes use it in forms, where I want line breaks with or without css. > PS: in terms of the  element itself - check out what's happening
> over here! > http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976
The "resource" term looks like a great way to make an address semantic.-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... 
liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com

Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool search plugi n!

[Alan Trick]

Not much to wory about though. You can download the file open it with a
simple text editor and read it.

=== standardistas.src =

# Rollyo Search - Sherlock Plug-in

http://rollyo.com/search.html";
  update="http://rollyo.com/tools/mozsearch/src.html/rollyo-4080-4886.src";
  updateCheckDays="3"
>







http://mycroft.mozdev.org/plugins/standardistas.src";
  updateIcon="http://mycroft.mozdev.org/plugins/standardistas.png";
  updateCheckDays="5"
>

===

with out all the ='s. No spyware here.

Alan Trick

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Fake Google Toolbars Spreading Identity Theft
> 
> Beware of guests bearing Google Toolbars. That's because a
> series of phishing probes are making the rounds that deliver
> a faked version. Install the real-looking software, and your
> credit cards and other personal information are captured,
> then transmitted to a shadowy group of criminals. We've got
> details on how the scam works, and what to look out for, in
> our security alert.
> 
> Beware Fake Toolbars:
> http://ct.eletters.whatsnewnow.com/rd/cts?d=181-544-1-278-911239-26861-0-0-0-1
> 
> 
> On 10/6/05, *Buddy Quaid* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > wrote:
> 
> Weird, i cant get to the site...i think it's blocking my ISP or
> something. I tried ping and nothing, i could trace and ping from an
> outside website but not from my machine.
> 
> 
> Buddy
> 
> Drake, Ted C. wrote:
> 
>> Hi buddy
>>
>> The link got mangled, try www.tdrake.net 
>> it's the first post.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Buddy Quaid
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:52 PM
>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
>> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool
>> search plugi n!
>>
>>  
>>
>> Your website will not pull up for me.
>>
>> Buddy
>>
>> Drake, Ted C. wrote:
>>
>> I didn't have room for all of them but I've added most of the
>> sites below.
>>
>> Ted
>>
>>  
>>
>>  
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *bit
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:15 PM
>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
>> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Stop the Presses! Announcing the supercool
>> search plugin!
>>
>>  
>>
>> hi all,
>>
>> maybe some suggestions for the ff-toolbar ...
>>
>> http://www.sitepoint.com/
>> http://digital-web.com/
>> http://cssplay.co.uk/
>> http://tanfa.co.uk/
>> http://www.stylegala.com/
>> http://kottke.org/
>> http://www.wpdfd.com/
>>
>> nice greetings from vienna :)
>>
>>
>> 2005/10/6, Drake, Ted C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> As many of you may have seen, I created a search plugin for
>> Alistapart.com 
>> that allows you to search their posts for information.
>>
>> That was just the tip of the iceberg. I really wanted to create
>> something
>> that would allow me to search all of my favorite coding resources
>> without
>> having to wade through outdated posts, spam, etc in a typical search.
>>
>> Chris Pederick comes to the rescue today with a post about Rollyo, a
>> personalized search engine portal.  Well, today, I created a
>> standards-based
>> web portal and then made a cool plugin.
>>
>> Go to my web site:
>> 
>> http://www.tdrake.net/standards-based-web-development-resources-made-even-ea
>> 
>> 
>> sier/ to download the standardista plugin.
>>
>> You can now search all of these sites from the comfort of your firefox
>> toolbar:
>> *   alistapart.com 
>> * w3.org 
>> * simplebits.com 
>> * meyerweb.com 
>> * stuffandnonsense.co.uk 
>> * shauninman.c...
>> * splintered.co.uk 
>> * stopdesign.com 
>> * andybudd.com 
>> * jasonsantamaria.com 
>> * accessify.com 
>> * clagnut.com 
>> * 456bereastreet.com 
>> * quirksmode.org 
>> * tantek.com <

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Terry Bunter]

Sorry if this has been discussed before and it may be a little of topic of this 
thread but
I have always wondered why h1 would be used in the header of the page for a 
logo.

I have always thought the h1 element should be the main heading for the content 
eg.

About Us
content...

This way the highest level heading is always unique to the section of the 
website you are visiting.


Cheers
TB


 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard Czeiger
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 1:43 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

I prefer the following IR:


Company 
Name 


in the stylesheet:

#masthead h1 {
margin: 0px; padding: 0px;
}

a {
width: Xpx; height: Ypx; overflow: hidden;
margin: 0px; padding: 0px; padding-top: Xpx; background: transparent 
url(images/logo.gif) no-repeat top left;
}


That way you don't get "clear.gif" going in your otherwise semantically nice 
mark up  :o)
R


- Original Message - 
From: "Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo


> Richard Czeiger wrote:
>> Doing it this way IS good branding.
>> It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in
>> certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will
>> know what I'm talking about...
>
> Good point.
> This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of control (image 
> source
> and size) and makes the logo clickable.
>
>  />Company Name
>
> [1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp
> 
>
> Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
>
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> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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>
> 


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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Richard Czeiger]

I dont' know how it works in the big leagues over at the W3C but I imagine 
that there's a fair amount of discussion internally about every single 
little bit they put into their specs.


Also, I have a stong feeling that our little mailing list here actually is a 
significant player into what the W3C does in the future. Certainly we've had 
their key players chat to us online and in person whenever they're in town. 
What we say here must at least make their ears prick up a little


I think the frustration is that we often keep going over the same ground 
without consensus or a formalised way of doing something with the arguements 
we do end up agreeing on.


Actually offering something up to the W3C on these issues (line breaks, 
address, etc...) and say "you guys do a great job, but we think the follow 
section could be clarified and expanded up. If you agree please update the 
spec and put out a note letting everyone know.

Cheers,
WSG"

What do you think?
R  :o)


- Original Message - 
From: "Buddy Quaid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil 



Peter Firminger wrote:

This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us 
(Web

Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.

We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or 
street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most 
(en)

people write out addresses.


I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago and got 
reamed for it.

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Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Richard Czeiger]

Umm  actually you do..

Check out www.courtappearances.com.au to see what I'm talking about.
Here's the CSS for that:
http://www.courtappearances.com.au/styles/style.css

R   :o)


- Original Message - 
From: "Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:58 PM
Subject: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo



Richard Czeiger wrote:

That way you don't get "clear.gif" going in your otherwise
semantically nice mark up  :o)


... but that way you don't get a clickable logo ;)

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[adam reitsma]

oh dear
is it just me, or does this TIP method seem like the modern-day version of the spacer gif?

On 10/10/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Richard Czeiger wrote:> Doing it this way IS good branding.> It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in> certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will> know what I'm talking about...
Good point.This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of control (image sourceand size) and makes the logo clickable./>Company Name[1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.aspThierry | 
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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

Richard Czeiger wrote:
> That way you don't get "clear.gif" going in your otherwise
> semantically nice mark up  :o)

... but that way you don't get a clickable logo ;)

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Buddy Quaid]

Peter Firminger wrote:


This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web
Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.

We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)
people write out addresses.

 

I second that. I tried to make a point like this a few threads ago and 
got reamed for it.

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Re: *****SPAM***** Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Richard Czeiger]

I prefer the following IR:


   Company 
Name




in the stylesheet:

#masthead h1 {
   margin: 0px; padding: 0px;
}

a {
   width: Xpx; height: Ypx; overflow: hidden;
   margin: 0px; padding: 0px; padding-top: Xpx; background: transparent 
url(images/logo.gif) no-repeat top left;

}


That way you don't get "clear.gif" going in your otherwise semantically nice 
mark up  :o)

R


- Original Message - 
From: "Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 1:30 PM
Subject: *SPAM* Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo



Richard Czeiger wrote:

Doing it this way IS good branding.
It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in
certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will
know what I'm talking about...


Good point.
This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of control (image 
source

and size) and makes the logo clickable.

Company Name

[1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp


Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Alan Trick]

1. Why use spans and not divs when divs are already block level
   elements. No need for CSS styling.
2. The main compelling reason to use br's is because semanically that
   is the right way to do it. Not a big deal I though because a line
break is a fairly semantically neurtal thing anyways.

Just my thoughts.

Alan Trick

Jon Tan wrote:
> Tantek Celik talks about the  and  tags in his Elements of 
> Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: 
> http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view
> 
> My suggestion would be that  is not necessary when the same visual 
> effect can be achieved with  around each address item which is then 
> style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically 
> useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: 
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard
> 
> Jon Tan
> Grow Collective
> www.gr0w.com
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Hope Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Web Standards Group" 
> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
> Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil 
> 
> 
> I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
> and for the most part can totally avoid using . But in the example below
> I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using :
> 
> All correspondence should be addressed to:
> The Secretary
> Your Club
> PO Box 999
> Anytown VIC 3000
> 
> How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
> contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
> a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?
> 
> If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
> this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?
> 
> Hope Stewart
> 
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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

Richard Czeiger wrote:
> Doing it this way IS good branding.
> It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in
> certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will
> know what I'm talking about...

Good point.
This Image Replacement method [1] allows this type of control (image source
and size) and makes the logo clickable.

Company Name

[1] http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/tip.asp


Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Hope Stewart]

Now that's a good argument, Richard! And just when I had been persuaded to
use . hm.

On the second website I ever made using web standards I do have one logo for
browsers and a cut-down version for print. But when I was making the site, I
didn't know about putting images in the background using css (I was still
trying to figure out the box model, floats, etc).

So my work-around (kids, don't try this at home!) was to put both logos in
the html in separate divs but display only one by using display:none on the
unwanted div. See for example:
http://www.harbourmarine.com/products/quick-release-hooks.html
http://www.harbourmarine.com/css/print.css
http://www.harbourmarine.com/css/products.css

Not particularly elegant but it works.

Hope Stewart

On 10/10/05 12:01 PM, "Richard Czeiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> However, there is an argument that has the logo in the CSS particularly for
> branding purposes. Hear me out...
> 
> You put the logo in the CSS. Nice and big and branded etc...
> Then you make a special logo for, oh I don't know, mobile devices. Small,
> crisp, pixel perfect.
> Now your users can see both and mobile users don't get frustrated waiting eons
> for your massive logo to show up on their mobile browser (not that it fits
> inside the window anyway).
> 
> Doing it this way IS good branding.
> It's also about controlling HOW you want your logo to appear in certain
> context. Anyone that's written a Corporate Style Guide will know what I'm
> talking about...
> 
> You've also got to ask the question, that if people have CSS switched off,
> it's probably because they don't want to see any non-relevant information
> (visual or textual) possibly becuase of bandwidth restrictions etc...
> 
> If you've semantically coded your header with something like:
> 
> 
>   Company Name
> 
> 
> Then they'll still see the name of your company - which still lets them know
> who they're dealing with and that that company cares about how they prefer to
> view the web. That's also good braning (maybe more on the brand personality
> side of things rather than the brand visual side).

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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Peter Firminger]

This thread is a clear case of why non-standards developers laugh at us (Web
Standards Zealots) and justifiably say we're irrelevant.

We're arguing over a line break! Forget the context (but a postal or street
address is a fine example of the need for a line break in the way most (en)
people write out addresses.

It's part of the way we put text on a page, either with a pen, a thumbnail
dipped in tar or hitting (carriage-)return (a hangover from typewriters, aka
the Enter key) on a keyboard.

It's even still known as CR (carriage-return) or LF (line-feed) or both
(CRLF) within computer-based text terminology.

I know this metaphor has flaws. On a typewriter (excepting the later "word
processing" ones that were aware of the page size) you HAD to use a carriage
return or you'd go off the page. Same with a pen, you stop at the edge of
the paper and start a new line. But if I handwrite my address, I use line
breaks regardless of the width of the page.

No, it's not print (from a press or a pen) but we still need to follow the
same basics for the written word. I'm not talking about fontography, colour,
width of canvas (parchment/paper/screen) or positioning, these should be
separated from the content. They are akin to calligraphy in handwriting and
changing the ribbon colour (or ink) or the font on the piece of lead or the
"golf ball" on a typewriter. I'm talking about the basics of the written
word and they ARE semantic.

As for what a screen reader does, we're now talking about the spoken word
but I have never heard a screen reader say something like "New line" or
"Line-feed" when it encounters a so it still works (if I'm wrong about
this please correct me).

A single  to force a line break is ok in this context.

 isn't (and never is). If you need two, mark it up correctly within
an appropriate block-level element (container).

P


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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Craig Rippon]

Crikey, I use  all the time. I did not know I was being so naughty. 

-Original Message-
From: Hope Stewart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 8:48 AM
To: Web Standards Group
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil 

I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using . But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using :
 
All correspondence should be addressed to: The
Secretary Your Club PO Box 999 Anytown VIC 3000
 
How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Terrence Wood]

I need to rephrase what I said earlier.

If you are using the hcard microformat, or you want to apply styles to
each constiuent use . If the previous conditions are not true, then
use , because it has much semantic value as  and uses less
markup.

 is a generic container for language or style attributes that can be
used to give a document structure - like an inline . In, and of
itself it has no semantic meaning, unlike , ,  which are
semantic elements.

Used with the hcard format -- and provided my browser knows what hcard is
(which would be possible if it has a namespace) -- then yes it would have
semantic meaning.



kind regards
Terrence Wood.

email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
phone: +64-4-8033354
mobile: +64-21-120-1234

Mordechai Peller said:
> Terrence Wood wrote:
>>  has absolutely no semantic value,
> That's not quite true. The s used in the previous examples do have
> semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly,
> that might not be much, but it's not nothing.
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Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

[Thierry Koblentz]

James,
> One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best
> practices
> using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you talk
> about are
> a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their software (what
> happened to
> fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars and DirectX calls in CSS
> instead
> of correct PNG alpha support.

To be honnest with you I prefer the "don't pollute" the markup speech.
IMHO, "MS is evil" is a weak angle.

> Feel free to use your conditional comments, I'm not going to stop
> you, but
> don't pass it off as good programming.
>
> Check out the HTML 4 spec on comments :
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/sgmltut.html#idx-HTML for more
> info.

I'm using a hack that relies on a browser's feature. You prefer to use CSS
hacks that rely on browsers' *bugs*. Is that better programming?

> Thanks,

You're welcome,

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Richard Czeiger]

However, there is an argument that 
has the logo in the CSS particularly for branding purposes. Hear me 
out...
 
You put the logo in the CSS. Nice 
and big and branded etc...
Then you make a special logo for, 
oh I don't know, mobile devices. Small, crisp, pixel perfect.
Now your users can see both and 
mobile users don't get frustrated waiting eons for your massive logo to show up 
on their mobile browser (not that it fits inside the window anyway). 

 
Doing it this way IS good 
branding.
It's also about controlling HOW you 
want your logo to appear in certain context. Anyone that's written a Corporate 
Style Guide will know what I'm talking about...
 
You've also got to ask the 
question, that if people have CSS switched off, it's probably because they don't 
want to see any non-relevant information (visual or textual) possibly becuase of 
bandwidth restrictions etc...
 
If you've semantically coded your 
header with something like:
 

    
Company Name

 
Then they'll still see 
the name of your company - which still lets them know who they're dealing 
with and that that company cares about how they prefer to view the web. That's 
also good braning (maybe more on the brand personality side of things rather 
than the brand visual side).
 
R  :o) 
 
- Original Message - 
From: adam reitsma 

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo
My thoughts entirely.I would definitely want the company 
logo as an IMG element.If your company's site was to be viewed without 
the use of CSS, would you still want the logo the appear? I 
would.--adam--
On 10/10/05, Peter 
Ottery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
  What do others think?1 vote here for always making the logo a regular 
   and part of thehtml markup. reasoning for me is a pretty 
  simple one. its content! 
  :)cheers,pete~~~ Peter Ottery ~ 
  Creative DirectorDaemon Pty Ltd17 Roslyn GardensElizabeth Bay NSW 
  2011www.daemon.com.au**The 
  discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/See 
  http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm 
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  help**

Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Hope Stewart]

On 10/10/05 11:25 AM, "adam reitsma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would definitely want the company logo as an IMG element.
> 
> If your company's site was to be viewed without the use of CSS, would you
> still want the logo the appear? I would.

Really, really good point! Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. And if images
are turned off, at least you'd have the alt text.


Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

[Patrick H. Lauke]

James Ellis wrote:

One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best 
practices using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you 
talk about are a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their software 
(what happened to fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars and 
DirectX calls in CSS instead of correct PNG alpha support.


However, as opposed to coloured scrollbars and such, they are completely 
invisible to standards compliant browsers.


Feel free to use your conditional comments, I'm not going to stop you, 
but don't pass it off as good programming.


It's not good in a standards purist sense, but in a "rubber meets the 
road" real world best practice usage sense, they're on par with CSS 
based import hacks and the like. Wouldn't say that either technique is 
better than the other...


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Mordechai Peller]

Jon Tan wrote:
It's arguable whether  applies to the whole resource or just 
a document within it,
In many cases, the contact information for a document and that of its 
site are the same. This is especially true on a "Contact Us" or an 
"About Us" type page.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Geoff Deering]

Mordechai Peller wrote:


Graham Cook wrote:


If  is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
  


Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation.



It hasn't changed.

http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-html40-970708/struct/global.html#h-7.1.4.4
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xhtml2-20021211/mod-text.html#sec_8.2.

-
Geoff
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Jon Tan]

span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them
behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4?


If it was pure presenation, sure, but this was with reference to sematics. A 
hCard (which was the original idea of the reply) needs more: 
http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Ref. using : Mordechai 
Peller pointed out  within  is invalid.




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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Lea de Groot]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 03:18:51 +0200, Mordechai Peller wrote:
> It's  invalid:
> 
> 

What? No, this is used instead of an address element.
No one suggested we should put divs inside an address.

Jon's reply of matching the hcard microformat is a good one :) Thank 
you, Jon.

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Richard Czeiger]

OK so someone pointed out that  would be better for poetry and I agree 
but with some reservations.
 does a nice job of handling the visual side of things but from a 
screen reader's point of view, how do they handle a line break through  
as opposed to . Do they pause or say "new line"? I think, when all is 
said and done though that  does seem better for poetry.


Anyway, no else has come forward with any examples of when to use  
apart from in an address.
This is a pretty smart group - if we can't find a decent use for it outside 
this then maybe we shoud get this formallised. In the same way that 
 elements shouldn't be placed outside a  element, let's tell 
the W3C to specify that line breaks should not be placed outside of the 
 tag.


At least this will end the debate once and for all about Line Breaks.

PS: in terms of the  element itself - check out what's happening 
over here!

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html#div154379976

R  :o)



- Original Message - 
From: "Patrick H. Lauke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil 



Hope Stewart wrote:


I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said  was used
only for information about the author


Which holds true if the  is used to mark up:

- the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate 
site and you're giving the company's contact details)
- if it's something like a directory listing where each member gets their 
own little page, the contact details for that particular member


So, the thread starter should give some info on what he's trying to mark 
up, exactly.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Thierry Koblentz]

Jon Tan wrote:
> The  use instead of  was to allow for semantic class names
> as per http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also
> personal preference but I would always seek to minimise the block
> level grouping elements in my mark-up.

span or div, if the purpose of wrapping these lines is just to make them
behave as block elements, then why not wrapping only 2 our of 4?


The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000


Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[adam reitsma]

My thoughts entirely.

I would definitely want the company logo as an IMG element.

If your company's site was to be viewed without the use of CSS, would you still want the logo the appear? I would.

--adam--On 10/10/05, Peter Ottery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> What do others think?1 vote here for always making the logo a regular  and part of thehtml markup. reasoning for me is a pretty simple one. its content! :)cheers,pete~~~
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Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

[James Ellis]

Thierry - 
Umm... the first result:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=conditional+comments+are+evil&btnG=Search&meta=

is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Apr/0027.html

One of the functions of this list and group is to implement best
practices using W3C standards based development. These conditionals you
talk about are a Microsoft addition to workaround bugs in their
software (what happened to fixing the bugs?), like coloured scrollbars
and DirectX calls in CSS instead of correct PNG alpha support.

Feel free to use your conditional comments, I'm not going to stop you, but don't pass it off as good programming.

Check out the HTML 4 spec on comments : http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/sgmltut.html#idx-HTML for more info.

Thanks
James
On 10/10/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As a side note, Googling "Conditional Comments are evil" doesn't returnanything...yet! ;)

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Mordechai Peller]

Lea de Groot wrote:
Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a 
div in the first place?  What are we gaining that I have missed?

It's  invalid:





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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Jon Tan]

If  is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html



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Hi Graham
Without being pedantic, you're quoting from the HTML 3.0 Draft (Expired) 
which has been superceded by HTML4.01. It's arguable whether  
applies to the whole resource or just a document within it, but my personal 
reading of the spec suggests to me that it's not appropriate for global 
contact information for a whole resource like a web site which was the 
example intitally given in the discussion. The HTML4.01 address 
recommendation is here: 
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/global.html#h-7.5.6


Regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com 




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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Peter Ottery]

>> What do others think?

1 vote here for always making the logo a regular  and part of the
html markup. reasoning for me is a pretty simple one. its content! :)

cheers,
pete

~~~
Peter Ottery ~ Creative Director
Daemon Pty Ltd
17 Roslyn Gardens
Elizabeth Bay NSW 2011
www.daemon.com.au
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Mordechai Peller]

Graham Cook wrote:

If  is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
  

Sure, back in March 1995 when HTML 3.0 was released as a recommendation.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Jon Tan]

Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a
div in the first place?  What are we gaining that I have missed?


Hi Lea,
The  use instead of  was to allow for semantic class names as per 
http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard. Maybe it's also personal preference 
but I would always seek to minimise the block level grouping elements in my 
mark-up.


Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com




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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Mordechai Peller]

Terrence Wood wrote:

 has absolutely no semantic value,
That's not quite true. The s used in the previous examples do have 
semantic value: they group together parts of an address. Admittedly, 
that might not be much, but it's not nothing.

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RE: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Graham Cook]

If  is good enough for W3C, it's good enough for me.

Refer: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html

The ADDRESS element specifies such information as address, signature and
authorship for the current document, and typically placed at the top or
bottom of the document. When used with %text, the element acts similar to a
paragraph with breaks before and after. 

Example: 


Newsletter editor
J.R. Brown
8723 Buena Vista, Smallville, CT 01234&t;BR>
Tel: +1 (123) 456 7890


Graham Cook
UA Oz

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Jon Tan]

All correspondence should be addressed to:
The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should
be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were
using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?


I think that for any agent the semantic way to separate address lines would 
be using a comma at the end of each line as appropriate, which regardless of 
what mark-up was used would be interpreted correctly by screen readers. 
Doesn't this also apply to non-CSS agents too? I.e:


The Secretary,
Your Club,
PO Box 999,
Anytown VIC 3000.

Is just as semantically correct as

The Secretary, Your Club, PO Box 999, Antown VIC 3000.

Regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com



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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Mordechai Peller]

Mike Brown wrote:
Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use  in the address 
example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different 
elements are (usually) on separate lines? 
You answered your own question: Parts of an address are *usually*, but 
*not always*, written on separate lines. The best tag to use, were 
currently available, would probably be the  tag from XHTML 2.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Lea de Groot]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 00:47:42 +0100, Jon Tan wrote:
> My suggestion would be that  is not necessary when the same visual 
> effect can be achieved with  around each address item which is then 
> style span{display:block} with CSS.

Curiosity - why use a span and apply display: block? Why not just use a 
div in the first place?  What are we gaining that I have missed?

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Lea de Groot]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 09:51:49 +1000, Hope Stewart wrote:
> What do others think? I am quite happy to be persuaded otherwise by a sound
> logical argument/discussion!

I have decided to (generally) make the logo part of the html.
Its part of the content, the company's branding is an important element 
of the page.
I suppose the argument is extendible to 'then we need to make all the 
colours etc part of the content too' to which I just say 'nah... 
overkill' without backing myself up.
Its a bit of arbitrary choice, I think, but one that I have made.
Probably not a terribly helpful point of view :(

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Terrence Wood]

Hope Stewart said:
> With all sites I've worked on, I'd say that the company logo falls into
> this presentational category. But I wasn't aware of this concept for my
> first few sites, so I have some sites where the company logo is part of
> the html and others where it is part of the css.


Coca-cola, Marlboro, Lucky Strike, BP, Mobil? (OK, so I watched motor
sport in the weekend) All of these companies are in the business of
branding commodity products... I doubt anyone can successfully argue that
these company logo's are decoration, tho they might try.

But back to the point at hand. I always go for getting acutal content to
the user above anything else. Why? because odds are that either the user
already knows the company, or the user wants to know what the company has
to say about themselves. The logo may add credibility, or help build
trust, but displaying the logo is not the primary purpose of the page.

As an aside, I thought I'd share a technique I've used that encompasses
both techniques of hard coding and image replacement.

What I have done in the past is hard coded the logo for use with the print
stylesheet (logo-on-white) and used image replacement techniques for use
onscreen (logo-on-full-color) -- this avoids a bug in early Safari builds
which did not download background images for the print style sheet that
did not appear onscreen.

kind regards
Terrence Wood


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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Hope Stewart wrote:


I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said  was used
only for information about the author


Which holds true if the  is used to mark up:

- the contact information for the current site (e.g. if it's a corporate 
site and you're giving the company's contact details)
- if it's something like a directory listing where each member gets 
their own little page, the contact details for that particular member


So, the thread starter should give some info on what he's trying to mark 
up, exactly.


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Jon Tan]

I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said  was used
only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that 
might
be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about . 
I'll

have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a
pleasure!


Yes, you're correct about : Part of the presentation was also a 
comment about  being a misnomer with the example in the spec being 
contradictory or at least not congruent with the actual specification and 
therefore not suitable for addresses in this context.


[...] considered using  but to me the code looks much cleaner and the 
css

has one less item by using . (I like the less-is-more concept.)



|Hope Stewart


I would usally totally agree with  the 'less is more' point but I disagree 
that  has any intrinsic semantic value - it is purely presentational 
whereas  could if the hCard micoformat was used and it also neatly 
solves the visual requirement.





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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Jon Tan]

 has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply
formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the
hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to
avoid using a  element of two.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.


The hCard format adds meaning to 's in this instance and additonal 
page weight is tiny.


Kind regards
Jon Tan
www.gr0w.com



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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Hope Stewart wrote:

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it 
should be contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But 
if you were using a screen reader, how would you differentiate one 
line from the next?


Non-CSS browsers dictates where to use  and/or other forms of
content-organizers. If  is evil, then non-CSS browsers are too. I
don't think anyone is seriously considering discarding non-CSS browsers,
but many seem to overlook their existence in their hunt for total
separation between markup and style. That doesn't make sense.

So, in our search for semantically correct markup, we should at least
ask Lynx[1][2] if it makes sense -- or not. The answer will "kill" a lot
of "semantically correct solutions" already present on the web.

Georg

[1]http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html
[2]http://lynx.isc.org/
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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Re: [WSG] Placement of company logo

[Thierry Koblentz]

Hope Stewart wrote:
> There was a thread earlier this year that discussed how images that
> are presentational and not part of the content should be placed as
> background images through the css and not coded into the html with
> the . This makes a lot of sense.
>
> With all sites I've worked on, I'd say that the company logo falls
> into this presentational category. But I wasn't aware of this concept
> for my first few sites, so I have some sites where the company logo
> is part of the html and others where it is part of the css.
>
> It is now interesting to compare the two methods and I would argue
> that, from a marketing point of view, a company logo should not be a
> background image. This is why:

I believe you forgot to mention one thing:
Most users expect the logo to be linked to the home page, so in this case it
belongs to the (X)HTML markup

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com



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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Jan Brasna]

All correspondence should be addressed to:

The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000



a) This is IMHO not good use for an  element (context matters).
b) s? Why? The're inline and they're overhead here.

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Terrence Wood]

Jon Tan said:
> My suggestion would be that  is not necessary when the same visual
> effect can be achieved with  around each address item which is then
> style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically
> useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

 has absolutely no semantic value, so unless you are going to apply
formatting to each constiuent of the address, or you are going to use the
hcard microformat I really see no point in adding page weight simply to
avoid using a  element of two.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Hope Stewart]

On 10/10/05 9:47 AM, "Jon Tan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Tantek Celik talks about the  and  tags in his Elements of
> Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here:
> http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view

I was present for Tantek's talk and I thought he said  was used
only for information about the author, not for various adddresses that might
be listed on a Contact Us page. I don't recall what he said about . I'll
have to download the podcast and listen to it again -- it will be a
pleasure!
> 
> My suggestion would be that  is not necessary when the same visual
> effect can be achieved with  around each address item which is then
> style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically
> useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat:
> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

I considered using  but to me the code looks much cleaner and the css
has one less item by using . (I like the less-is-more concept.)

Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Mordechai Peller]

Hope Stewart wrote:

All correspondence should be addressed to:
The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000
  

This may be a good case for an  tag:

All correspondence should be addressed to:

The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000


It could be argued that instead of the s, this is a rare case 
where the 's are semantic. Also, an  tag might be better here 
than the .


Note: If this isn't contact information for the document, then  the 
 tag would be incorrect.


Another option is:


All corr...
...


If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct?

The problem with using an ordered list is that it's not a list.
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Geoff Deering]

Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote:


Hi Hope,

There is nothing evil about the  element unless one is using it for visual effect. In your 
example, you are using  correctly. For addresses, you might want to use the  
element instead of .

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com
 



I agree with you about , but  should only be used when it 
refers to the author or owner of the document

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/address.html
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xhtml2-20021211/mod-text.html#sec_8.2.

Regards
Geoff
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[WSG] Placement of company logo

[Hope Stewart]

I've only started using web standards this year. This list has been an
invaluable source of knowledge (thanks everyone -- keep it up!).
 
There was a thread earlier this year that discussed how images that are
presentational and not part of the content should be placed as background
images through the css and not coded into the html with the . This
makes a lot of sense.
 
With all sites I've worked on, I'd say that the company logo falls into this
presentational category. But I wasn't aware of this concept for my first few
sites, so I have some sites where the company logo is part of the html and
others where it is part of the css.
 
It is now interesting to compare the two methods and I would argue that,
from a marketing point of view, a company logo should not be a background
image. This is why:
 
When you watch a page load in your browser, it's a bit like watching
dominoes falling: you see a cascade of the page elements fall into place and
come to rest. How fast this happens depends on the speed of your internet
connection. When the company logo is coded into the html, it is often one of
the first images to load and it is in-your-face while everything else is
loading. But when the logo is a background image, it is one of the last
things to load. From a marketing point of view, this is not desirable.
 
What do others think? I am quite happy to be persuaded otherwise by a sound
logical argument/discussion!

Cheers,
Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Jon Tan]

Tantek Celik talks about the  and  tags in his Elements of 
Meaningful XHTML presentation at WE05 available here: 
http://www.odeo.com/audio/270419/view

My suggestion would be that  is not necessary when the same visual 
effect can be achieved with  around each address item which is then 
style span{display:block} with CSS. Each span could have a semantically 
useful classname or you could look in to the hCard microformat: 
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

Jon Tan
Grow Collective
www.gr0w.com


- Original Message - 
From: "Hope Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Web Standards Group" 
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:47 PM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil 


I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using . But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using :

All correspondence should be addressed to:
The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Mike Brown]

Richard Czeiger wrote:
I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when 
best to use the  tag in general?

What type of content semantically requires a line break.

- Original Message - From: "Hope Stewart" 

I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using :

All correspondence should be addressed to:
The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000



Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use  in the address 
example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different 
elements are (usually) on separate lines?


Mike
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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Christian Montoya]

The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the linebreak has serious semantic value.
Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate thatthe actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example fordeomnstration / readability. This is usually presented by a symbol at the
end of the first line (>> or some such)Wouldn't poetry go in the < pre > tag? Where the structure is retained? Or is that less semantic? -- - C Montoya
rdpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

[Andrew Krespanis]

On 10/9/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's totally irrelevant. If 2 days ago you knew your article was flawed
> then why posting a link to it?

I only mentioned it because it was published exactly 365 days earlier
on a very similar topic (linking CSS to html files). I was amused by
this fact.

Lets not get so deep, eh people? :)

Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[XStandard]

Hi Hope,

There is nothing evil about the  element unless one is using it for visual 
effect. In your example, you are using  correctly. For addresses, you might 
want to use the  element instead of .

Regards,
-Vlad
http://xstandard.com


 Original Message 
From: Hope Stewart
Date: 10/9/2005 6:47 PM
> I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
> and for the most part can totally avoid using . But in the example below
> I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using :
>
> All correspondence should be addressed to:
> The Secretary
> Your Club
> PO Box 999
> Anytown VIC 3000
>
> How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
> contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
> a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?
>
> If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
> this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?
>
> Hope Stewart
>
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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>
>


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Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Richard Czeiger]

This sounds like it's going to turn into another "let's all figure out how 
to use the  tag" thing so let me pre-empt that.


I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best 
to use the  tag in general?

What type of content semantically requires a line break.

The one thing that jumps immediately to my mind is poetry where the line 
break has serious semantic value.
Another might be for code snippets where the author wants to indicate that 
the actaull code continues on one line but is broken up in his example for 
deomnstration / readability. This is usually presented by a symbol at the 
end of the first line (>> or some such)


Any other examples?

R

- Original Message - 
From: "Hope Stewart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Web Standards Group" 
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:47 AM
Subject: [WSG] Avoiding the evil 


I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a 
website
and for the most part can totally avoid using . But in the example 
below

I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using :

All correspondence should be addressed to:
The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000

How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should 
be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were 
using

a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

Hope Stewart

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[WSG] Avoiding the evil

[Hope Stewart]

I'm getting the hang of this whole Web Standards way of designing a website
and for the most part can totally avoid using . But in the example below
I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using :
 
All correspondence should be addressed to:
The Secretary
Your Club
PO Box 999
Anytown VIC 3000
 
How do others code an address? My feeling is that semantically it should be
contained within one paragraph or entity of some sort. But if you were using
a screen reader, how would you differentiate one line from the next?

If I were to use an ordered list with list-style-type set to none, would
this be semantically correct? Is there a better way?

Hope Stewart

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Re: [WSG] Redesign of a danish library website - help/comments

[Felix Miata]

Soren Johannessen wrote:
 
> Next week bibliotek.dk [Denmark] (url http://bibliotek.dk) is going to
> redesign their website
> "In bibliotek.dk you will find records of all items published in Denmark
> as well as all items found in the Danish public & research libraries."
> 
> There is a beta version ready http://proto.bibliotek.dk/ - This was a
> chock/surprice to see such a bad redesign in 2005 from a web standards
> point of view. I am going to write a review  article (sorry this article
> is going to be in Danish) what's wrong with this new redesign.My major
> findings and what is wrong is [...]

You're right about having a lot wrong. This shows just a few problems
(it is worse farther down, or when zoomed):
http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/soren1.png

The text is too small, and it often doesn't fit into the spaces allotted
for it. The text is (too small) via relative sizing, but the space for
it to fit is frequently set with px for container height or line-height,
and overflow: hidden to go with it. The result is a lot of hidden or
overlapping text when the user's browser is using uncommon settings.
-- 
"Be quick to listen, slow to speak."James 1:19 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

[kvnmcwebn]

 

  sorry all, i've found the tutorial that 
  might help me with this problem so i will try and 
  figure it out on my own. 
  thanks

RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

[kvnmcwebn]

 

  sorry 
  thats
   
  http://mcmonagle.biz/test.htm 
   
  http://mcmonagle.biz/test2.htm 
  
  
   
  
   

Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

[Thierry Koblentz]

Hi James,

> Adding to this, it's not a valid way of writing your code, as
> mentioned on another thread.

AFAIK, the discussion you're referring to didn't take us anywhere. It has
been said that Michael Landis summed up the thread pretty well saying:
"I think we're getting very close to a debate on personal beliefs and
preferences (the importance of browser support versus the importance
of "clean" code)."

PPK, who I believe is a "clean" code advocate, says it's fine to use CCs:
http://www.quirksmode.org/css/condcom.html
(I'm surprised he calls them CSS hacks though)

As a side note, Googling "Conditional Comments are evil" doesn't return
anything...
yet! ;)

Cheers,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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RE: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

[Helmut Granda]

Both links point to the same page.

 

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kvnmcwebn
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005
2:52 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] 3 row(div) liquid
vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-



 



hello all,





 





ive dug myself into a hole trying to
create a  3 div-semi liquid layout with expandable drop
shadows.-





The drop shadow method im using isnt
perfect for this application but I cant find a better one as i want an eqaul
shadow on all 4 sides of the div. I cant remember where i got this shadow tut
from although i tried searching with the standardista plug-in which btw is
very handy. 





 





Also the middle(body) div needs
to to resize to 100% of the width between the header and footer divs which
is causing problems with the shadows. 





 





In this example the shadows work but the
middle div dosn't resize.





http://www.mcmonagle.biz/test.htm





 





 





In this example the middle div resizes but
the shadows break.





http://www.mcmonagle.biz/test.htm





 





 





 





Does anyone have suggestions to simplify
this?





thanks in advance





 





-best





kvnmcwebn





 





 

Re: [WSG] Meta Keywords?

[Terrence Wood]

If you mean for search engines, then yes, I think you are correct.
However, there may be other valid reasons for using metadata.

Does anyone remember when Anil Dash (from Six Apart) beat out 2 SEO
companies and won a SEO competition in 2004?

http://www.dashes.com/anil/2004/07/27/optimizing_sear

The best SEO is to have *relevant content* that speaks in the same
language as your target audience, rather than trying to manipulate SERP's
by keyword stuffing and other tricks.

You may find these links useful:
http://www.penmachine.com/techie/search_ranking_2004-08.html
http://www.penmachine.com/2004/08/is-it-worth-optimizing-your-site-for.html
http://wolfram.org/writing/howto/3.html

kind regards
Terrence Wood.

Martin Jopson said:
> So, from John & Derek's responses, am I correct in thinking there's no
> use for the Meta Keywords or Meta Description tags anymore?


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[WSG] 3 row(div) liquid vertical layout w/drop shadows-help-

[kvnmcwebn]

hello 
all,
 
ive 
dug myself into a hole trying to create a  3 
div-semi liquid layout with expandable 
drop shadows.-
The 
drop shadow method im using isnt perfect for this application but 
I cant find a better one as i want an eqaul shadow on 
all 4 sides of the div. I cant remember where i got this shadow tut from 
although i tried searching with the standardista plug-in which btw is 
very handy. 
 
Also the middle(body) div needs to to resize 
to 100% of the width between the header and footer divs which is causing 
problems with the shadows. 
 
In 
this example the shadows work but the middle div dosn't 
resize.
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/test.htm
 
 
In 
this example the middle div resizes but the shadows break.
http://www.mcmonagle.biz/test.htm
 
 
 
Does 
anyone have suggestions to simplify this?
thanks 
in advance
 
-best
kvnmcwebn
 
 

Re: [WSG] Site check: color.rdpdesign.com

[Christian Montoya]

On 10/9/05, Steve Ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I expected the manual inputs to accept hex values since that's
typically how we work with colors on the web. Perhaps you could offer
the option of using hex or decimal?Steve Ferguson - Illumit L.L.C. 
I will, later.
-- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com

Re: [WSG] Site check: color.rdpdesign.com

[Steve Ferguson]

I expected the manual inputs to accept hex values since that's typically how we work with colors on the web. Perhaps you could offer the option of using hex or decimal?Steve Ferguson - Illumit L.L.C. On Oct 8, 2005, at 6:25 PM, Christian Montoya wrote:Hey all, Thanks for the checks. The problems come from the page being sized in em's, and the ads being absolutely positioned with ems... I've decided that's too difficult. I'll probably put the ads back in, but in a more robust way, so they don't risk covering content. -- - C Montoyardpdesign.com ... liquid.rdpdesign.com ... montoya.rdpdesign.com 

RE: [WSG] Image rollovers

[James Oppenheim]

You can do it all using css.

Try this link: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites

Hopefully that helps.

Cheers,

James


From: "Kevin Arrowsmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
To: 
Subject: [WSG] Image rollovers
Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:52:56 +0100

Hi guys



I'm creating a site which will be using rollovers but what is the best way
to create the rollovers, use JavaScript or use CSS to control them.



I have used javascript at the moment but I seem to be having some problems
with firefox and images, firefox seems to put some kind of border or magin
on one side of the image, the website is at
http://darkvirus.homeip.net/~darkness/epixel/ if you want to see what I
mean, the site works fine in IE though although when I put the header img 
in

as an  rather than a background both browsers put some kind or border
below the image.




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[WSG] Image rollovers

[Kevin Arrowsmith]

Hi guys

 

I’m creating a site which will be using rollovers but
what is the best way to create the rollovers, use _javascript_ or use CSS to
control them.

 

I have used _javascript_ at the moment but I seem to be having
some problems with firefox and images, firefox seems to put some kind of border
or magin on one side of the image, the website is at http://darkvirus.homeip.net/~darkness/epixel/
if you want to see what I mean, the site works fine in IE though although when I
put the header img in as an  rather than a background both browsers
put some kind or border below the image.  

Re: [WSG] But why didn't Eric use positioning

[Mordechai Peller]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:
The same happens when you use floats inside a container: if you don't 
have something as the last item of the container to clear them, the 
container will collapse.
That's not always true. If the container is also floated, it DOES expand 
to contain child floats.

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[WSG] Redesign of a danish library website - help/comments

[Soren Johannessen]

Hi all

Next week bibliotek.dk [Denmark] (url http://bibliotek.dk) is going to 
redesign their website
"In bibliotek.dk you will find records of all items published in Denmark 
as well as all items found in the Danish public & research libraries."


There is a beta version ready http://proto.bibliotek.dk/ - This was a 
chock/surprice to see such a bad redesign in 2005 from a web standards 
point of view. I am going to write a review  article (sorry this article 
is going to be in Danish) what's wrong with this new redesign.My major 
findings and what is wrong is


1) Divitis - they use 80  "Sic!) - lot's of them for things like 
inline CSS  and


2) Id versus Class - all  have been (all most) marked as class - 
more logical to marked most of them as id instead of class

3) lots of  and 
4) Embbeded JavaScript which also have errors - The W3C validator finds 
them -

5) the design looks very very bad in Firefox and Opera
6) no use of text any where
7) use of target attribute in  HTML 4.01 Strict href="http://www.e17.dk/"; target="_blank"> No Go
8) Menus/navigation have not been marked as lists  or  would be 
more logical

9) CSS file is also bad the CSS Validator finds a lots of warnings
10 Spacer gifs http://proto.bibliotek.dk/common/pics/dot_trans.gif 
for things like height="18" alt="">
11) No print style sheet - very important when people printing their 
search results out - and don't want all menus and other graphics also 
been printed out -
(waste of paper) and also because IE 6.0  don't shrink the page when 
printing out.
12) some minor errors like  content="text/html; charset=is0-8859-1"> in "iso" there is 0 (zero)


Conclusion- The persons behinds this redesign don't know such much about 
HTML, CSS, JavaScripts and best practices in 2005. [could send them the 
book "Designing with web standards" by Zeldman for a start] The redesign 
website is build so hard to maintaine/edit (24.7 KB code main page) - 
this resign could have been a lightwheigt XHTML for structure, and CSS & 
JavaScript placed out in external

files, but now the danish taxpayers gets this  amateur coding redesign.
As a note I can tell in Denmark, the Danish Ministry for Science, 
Technology and Innovation strongly encourage all 
governmental/national/municipal authorities to use W3C standards 
(HTML/XHTML standards) on their Web pages. But we don't see it here.  

If you have more comments/feedbacks/input about the redesign website, I 
would be very thankfully to hear it, like testing on Mac, WAI issues etc.


best regards
Soren Johannessen
Copenhagen, Denmark

PS- I hope you all understood my english above. 
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Re: [WSG] Say no to CSS hacks with branching techniques

[James Ellis]

Thierry

In what arcane alternate reality do comments drive code? You are still
talking about a hack. How is using this different to parsing a User
Agent string? different method but same result.

Adding to this, it's  not a valid way of writing your code, as
mentioned on another thread. The validator may give you a tick but
that's only because it's doing the right thing here and ignoring the
comments. Just because the validator gives it a tick doesn't mean the
application is written well.

The subject of the article is pretty apt, I'd tend to agree on that point.

Cheers
James


> Also: IE7 will probably have the same Layout-mess (according to my> sources), but may need a different "fix" in order to avoid an even
> larger mess. It's all there...So what?! IE versions since v5 parse Conditional Comments. IE7 is not hereyet and we already know that it has a (reliable) built-in filter. Isn'tgreat?!;)
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com