RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
The point of the introduction of Web standards was so that user-agent manufacturers can create browsers that render them as intended by the designer. And that, yes, in 10 years time the browsers that exist then (whatever form they may take)will still render them as intended because they are written to those standards. That is not to say that the standards are fixed in stone and that the Web will not move forward, but rather that the standards we will move forward in a coherent way to create a better and better user experience (rather than the proprietary mess we had pre-standards). I.E., whilst moving to support Web standards, has to provide support for legacy sites coded to their earlier proprietary mess. On Thu, March 26, 2009 1:19 am, Rick Faircloth wrote: > Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these > days, who knows what things will be like then! > > Rick > > -Original Message- > From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On > Behalf Of nedlud > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) > > As I understand this thread, it is not about whether current standards > are right or wrong, but how did we end up with these standards in the > first place? > > The current standards did not just spring into existence, fully > formed, out of the brow of some greek god. The standards evolved as > peoples understanding of the web evolved. And the web itself was > evolving at the same time, just as it continues to do. Just as the > standards will continue to evolve. > > I'm certainly not saying that I disagree with current web standards, > just that it would be foolish to think that they are *definitive*. > > As professionals, it is our responsibility to be reflective > practitioners: to question the status quo and make sure it's really > working. We can't do that without asking questions, or without > listening to people who ask questions. > > The web is still an incredibly young medium and anyone who imagines > that the standards we have today will apply to the web of tomorrow > (I'm thinking of about a 10 year away tomorrow) would be naive. > > L. > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
>> And for those of you with legal requirements to use or avoid >> certain features?great! Use >> them as you will! But don?t criticize others who take a more >> practical approach and aren?t >> enslaved by the legal requirements which chain you down. I don't believe that legal requirements providing equity of access to all are a problem at all. In fact just the opposite. It's a delightful challenge to work with standards and legal requirements so that anyone is able to access web content without being hindered by artificial barriers and constraints. While my legal requirements are specific, other laws are now being attributed to all web sites here in the US. The recent Target case was a rather expensive $6 million learning exercise for that company and may have established a precedent for all (commercial) web sites in the US. We will have to wait and see. Apparently Virgin Blue in Australia is embroiled in its own problems with respect to standards and accessibility. That case could go either way and also establish a precedent for web sites based in Australia. In many ways the approach is similar to the old Fram oil commercials that used to run on TV here in the States ("You can pay me now or pay me later.") Designing and building according to standards is more cost-effective in the long run. It's a best practice. It's good for business. And yes, as already demonstrated in this thread, one must be cognizant that not every web professional is able to effectively exercise their professional judgement when it comes to standards. Being able to pay the rent and put food on the table is pretty strong incentive to just put one's head down and do the job. At the same time the challenge for web standards is being addressed where that unfair burden does not exist. >> You just don?t realize it, but you?re enslaved more by your >> ?company? than I will *ever* be. I fail to understand that doing the right thing for the greatest good could ever been seen as enslavement. Removing artificial barriers has never been a form of enslavement in my book. Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." -- George Bernard Shaw *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
Cool! They'll have implants and better vision than "organically-sighted" people! -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:40 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) Rick Faircloth wrote: > Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these > days, who knows what things will be like then! Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
I thought you would say that! :o) -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:57 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) On Mar 25, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: > Rick Faircloth wrote: >> Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these >> days, who knows what things will be like then! > > Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;) It will be just like in the Star Trek Voyager, that Tom Paris found a space shuttle which has a neurogenic interface that interacts directly with the driver's thoughts :-) And no, it will not named Alice, it likely will be named Rick. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites? ADMIN THREAD CLOSED
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Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) - ADMIN THREAD CLOSED
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Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
On Mar 25, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Rick Faircloth wrote: Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these days, who knows what things will be like then! Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;) It will be just like in the Star Trek Voyager, that Tom Paris found a space shuttle which has a neurogenic interface that interacts directly with the driver's thoughts :-) And no, it will not named Alice, it likely will be named Rick. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
So true. But how long has the WG been working on HTML5? And assuming anyone ever reaches consensus on that, how long until browsers start supporting it in wide enough numbers for it to be a practical alternative for developers? Technology can change fast, but in the world of web, it can take some time for those changes to be felt. The web will be different enough in 2-3 years, but I imagine 10 years from now will be a complete paradigm shift. It was only ~10 years ago when table based layouts were best practice, and today forums like this would cheerfully roast anyone for even suggesting such a thing. (Actually I've seen people get flamed here for suggesting *any* use of a table, including for showing tabular data ;) ) L. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE
From: "Rick Faircloth" group Sorry that tag isn't to standard... ;o) Read Russ's DOCTYPE :-) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
Rick Faircloth wrote: Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these days, who knows what things will be like then! Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
group :o) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of ewen.h...@dhs.vic.gov.au Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:07 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? Any more and the thread will be closed. Please!!! Regards, Ewen Hill , Project Manager, Web Communications Unit Department of Human Services, Level 16, 50 Lonsdale Street Melbourne Victoria 3000 _ This email contains confidential information intended only for the person named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is prohibited. The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is free of virus or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you have received this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au _ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
On 26/03/2009, at 11:37 AM, Andrew Maben wrote: To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as to the context of "user benefit", "call to action". I'm not at all confused as to what a user benefit is. You may have decided for yourself that websites have no place crossing the conservative browser-site line you've drawn in the sand, but you must concede that others may be more liberal when drawing the same line. I personally believe that websites provide context to the browser, context that website authors can leverage to inform their user. Adding a browser bookmark might have a specific benefit for your website, which when described may make more sense to your user than the abstract task of performing the task on their own. For example, a weather site may explain the benefits of bookmarking the site in terms of having ready access to the weather. Why not provide the functionality (if available) to add the bookmark then and there? You never know, other vendors might recognise the user-benefit and standardise the behavior! Likewise, RSS/Atom feed subscription functionality in the browser is very abstract. To me, "let me know when Andrew adds new photos to this album" makes more sense than "subscribe to RSS 2.0". To laymen, the distinction is potentially more so. As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the opportunity to offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while broadly true it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand. The question was whether or not the use of proprietary browser functionality "forced" all users to use those proprietary functions, which to me is a highly relevant question. To be clear, I don't think that the use of proprietary functionality forces anything on anyone when used appropriately. "Appropriately" being the key word there, and where people such as you and I may sometimes disagree. Cheers, Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these days, who knows what things will be like then! Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of nedlud Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) As I understand this thread, it is not about whether current standards are right or wrong, but how did we end up with these standards in the first place? The current standards did not just spring into existence, fully formed, out of the brow of some greek god. The standards evolved as peoples understanding of the web evolved. And the web itself was evolving at the same time, just as it continues to do. Just as the standards will continue to evolve. I'm certainly not saying that I disagree with current web standards, just that it would be foolish to think that they are *definitive*. As professionals, it is our responsibility to be reflective practitioners: to question the status quo and make sure it's really working. We can't do that without asking questions, or without listening to people who ask questions. The web is still an incredibly young medium and anyone who imagines that the standards we have today will apply to the web of tomorrow (I'm thinking of about a 10 year away tomorrow) would be naive. L. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE
group Sorry that tag isn't to standard... ;o) Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE ADMIN This thread has deteriorated into slanging match. Any more and the thread will be closed. Keep the conversation constructive, helpful, considerate... Like a giant virtual "group hug" :0 Thanks Russ List admin and group hug evangelist *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
Any more and the thread will be closed. Please!!! Regards, Ewen Hill , Project Manager, Web Communications Unit Department of Human Services, Level 16, 50 Lonsdale Street Melbourne Victoria 3000 _ This email contains confidential information intended only for the person named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is prohibited. The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is free of virus or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you have received this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au _ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
There's where the difference is.users are *allowed* to come to sites that I build as a benefit to them. I don't know of a single user who ever visited a site (other than somebody's mother) for the benefit of the site's owner or developer. People don't visit newegg.com, Microsoft,com, or apple.com or any other site for the benefit of those companies.they go because it benefits them.and they are happy for the privilege of visiting those sites with the browser that they are "allowed" to use by Microsoft, Apple, Opera, et al. It never has been and never will be "their" browser. You have an "unusual" perspective on reality, Andrew. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:37 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? Do you imagine that a condescending, not to say insulting, tone adds weight to your arguments? If so, I'm sorry to disabuse you, but it just makes a weak point weaker. To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as to the context of "user benefit", "call to action". I find it useful to remember that the common conception of "visitors" "coming to" your site has it backwards - they are extending you the courtesy of allowing your site to visit their browser. As such it is probably better, and certainly more polite, to restrict the scope of one's calls to action to the site, and leave decisions about the browser environment to the user. As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the opportunity to offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while broadly true it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand. Respectfully. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions." On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote: On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote: The simple process of adding a "favorites link" on a web page is a proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company. While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator. Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user benefit? You've got to be kidding me. While some may be inclined to include a "favorites" link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as well. Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's possible to improve the user experience of some without negatively affecting others. Not only that, but the competition pressures vendors in positive ways, more often than not leading to standardisation. If vendors sat around holding hands trying to reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers, innovation would halt altogether. Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE
ADMIN This thread has deteriorated into slanging match. Any more and the thread will be closed. Keep the conversation constructive, helpful, considerate... Like a giant virtual "group hug" :0 Thanks Russ List admin and group hug evangelist *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
As I understand this thread, it is not about whether current standards are right or wrong, but how did we end up with these standards in the first place? The current standards did not just spring into existence, fully formed, out of the brow of some greek god. The standards evolved as peoples understanding of the web evolved. And the web itself was evolving at the same time, just as it continues to do. Just as the standards will continue to evolve. I'm certainly not saying that I disagree with current web standards, just that it would be foolish to think that they are *definitive*. As professionals, it is our responsibility to be reflective practitioners: to question the status quo and make sure it's really working. We can't do that without asking questions, or without listening to people who ask questions. The web is still an incredibly young medium and anyone who imagines that the standards we have today will apply to the web of tomorrow (I'm thinking of about a 10 year away tomorrow) would be naive. L. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
>First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or >we'd all have self-driving cars already. It is possible...there's just not sufficient will and money to make it a widespread reality. But that's another topic for another day... Anyway...the first time you are forced to compromise your work in a way that even itches a little, I want you to walk out and leave that pay check behind right there. Continue that walk and wait until you get hungry enough and some of those vaunted "principles" will be tossed aside like so much waste. Like you said, accessibility is *generally* a low-cost proposition. But, in many cases, complete accessibility can drive the cost of a site 500% higher, depending on functionality that has to be adapted. Blind people using websites and blind people driving. The cost is not the same, but the principle is...it's all about the level of accommodation that can be afforded or is appropriate. Believe me when I say that I'm happy when as many people as possible can be accommodated. I just don't get bent out of shape because some people don't care to accommodate others. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 6:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, "Rick Faircloth" wrote: > The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not) > is that design for which the client is paying. Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another to think out all the angles and produce something that reaches the largest possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of the people I now work with, and all the ones I think of as successful in web design/dev, sweat those details. I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others would do the same is a question of their own judgment, not their professionalism. > A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving > accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however, > the cost is simply too high to make that a reality. First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or we'd all have self-driving cars already. Though what this has to do with pragmatic accessibility for web pages, which is generally a low-cost proposition for most of what's out there, is beyond me. Making content more accessible is not a boil-the-ocean strategy. Most of the basics for web accessibility take little work, and are easy to integrate into the average dev's everyday tasks. The only time it can be really costly is when it's been ignored the whole time the work was being done. > Likewise (...in that they are both referenced sequentially in one email...) > site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that > prohibit making their websites accessible to all. Or they may just choose > not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's. So, let me boil this down: web accessibility is like blind people driving. Wow. I think the only thing they may have in common is your willingness to contemplate them as an implementer. Which is fine, in and of itself. I'm not the boss of you. But if you're trying to equate the task of following a few best practices with reinventing the world's transportation infrastructure, well, good luck with that. - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:33 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote: differentiation with superior products or marketing ROFL! (sorry, Russ) Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
Do you imagine that a condescending, not to say insulting, tone adds weight to your arguments? If so, I'm sorry to disabuse you, but it just makes a weak point weaker. To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as to the context of "user benefit", "call to action". I find it useful to remember that the common conception of "visitors" "coming to" your site has it backwards - they are extending you the courtesy of allowing your site to visit their browser. As such it is probably better, and certainly more polite, to restrict the scope of one's calls to action to the site, and leave decisions about the browser environment to the user. As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the opportunity to offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while broadly true it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand. Respectfully. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions." On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote: On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote: The simple process of adding a "favorites link" on a web page is a proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company. While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator. Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user benefit? You've got to be kidding me. While some may be inclined to include a "favorites" link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as well. Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's possible to improve the user experience of some without negatively affecting others. Not only that, but the competition pressures vendors in positive ways, more often than not leading to standardisation. If vendors sat around holding hands trying to reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers, innovation would halt altogether. Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
Oh, brother, Dennis.you're implying that the use of the word "favorites" is a conspiracy? And it really doesn't matter who develops a function and for what reason.it's up to the developers and designers to use or not use a function, depending on their target audience. Every business has to differentiate itself in the marketplace, including IE. By choosing to call "bookmarks", "favorites", they sought a way to become more user-friendly.and succeeded in my view. Calling a site on of my "favorites" makes a lot more sense than calling it one of my "bookmarks." And, I don't recall ever mentioning putting anything "favorites link" on a web page. I could use that on a Firefox browser or any other.the terms used don't matter.it's still the same type functionality. And what does "pedigree" matter?!? Do you only ever use functionality that has an appropriate "pedigree?" And, I'll guarantee you that as the use of RSS becomes more and more common, the terms by which it is referred will change, as well. It's still just a technological tool, just like a bookmark or "favorite". You sound more like the "company man", with remarks like "the actual industry term is bookmark." Who cares what the *industry* calls it. In the world of business, it's not "standardization" that causes success, it differentiation with superior products or marketing.either way it spells success. And for those of you with legal requirements to use or avoid certain features.great! Use them as you will! But don't criticize others who take a more practical approach and aren't enslaved by the legal requirements which chain you down. You just don't realize it, but you're enslaved more by your "company" than I will *ever* be. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:08 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? While the concept may appear sound at first glance, it's based on a false, misleading and dishonest premise. The simple process of adding a "favorites link" on a web page is a proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company. While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator. Web developers sought to develop similar code so that the function would work in other browsers such as Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc., with no appreciable success. The mere name "favorites" should have been the clue since that term is also proprietary to that single browser. The actual industry term is bookmark. On the other hand, RSS feeds and links, "Subscribe to my RSS feed .." is an industry term using code accessible to all browsers. While created by a proprietary development group, its growth and development was more of an open standards approach. It eventually became an industry standard and it works in all browsers. Comparing "favorites" to "RSS" is unfair. It is comparing fish to bicycles, in more ways than one. The former smells in a relatively short period of time (and may contain chemicals not conducive to good health) while the latter will actually take you somewhere that you may choose to go, and you will feel better, too. Perhaps the analogy also applies to each function's pedigree as well. Standards are about equity of access. While some may be inclined to include a "favorites" link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as well. Still, some may not care. However, for those of us with legal requirements to provide equity of access regardless of the method, use of a "favorites" link is an implied endorsement of a particular tool from a particular manufacturer, and that is a big no no. It is a denial of access to others who do not live in a company town, who do not live in a company house, who do not buy from the company store and who do not respond to every query with, "Yes, Sir! May I have another, Sir!" Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." -- George Bernard Shaw "Rick Faircloth" Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org 03/25/2009 02:48 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To cc Subject RE: [WSG] add to favorites? Spend a little time on Google s
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
Stuart, You'll be pleased to know that I have indeed read what the Web Standards Group is for, and that I understand what web standards are. My original email was very clear that the method I suggested was *proprietary*, given that no standardised approach exists for doing what was asked. If there was, I would have promoted it. If you're suggesting that my answer should have been "it is not possible", your view of web standards and how they evolve is rather regressive. Not only that, but it's also potentially harmful to the promotion of web standards to end-users, developers and vendors, and contrary to (in my not so humble opinion) the spirit of the WSG mandate. Nathan de Vries On 26/03/2009, at 10:59 AM, Stuart Foulstone wrote: The Web Standards Group is for web designers & developers who are interested in web standards (HTML, XHTML, XML, CSS, XSLT etc.) and best practices (accessible sites using valid and semantically correct code). We aim to: * Provide web developers and designers with a forum to discuss issues and share knowledge (via our discussion list and regular meetings) * Provide web standards information and assistance to developers * Promote "web standards" within the development community Source: http://webstandardsgroup.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
Rick Faircloth wrote: Although that single link provides a lot of convenience for the user, they could still visit all 11 plus sites to register their site on delicious, digg, google, facebook, twitter, etc… That assumes that the users will want to bookmark the page/site on all 11 social bookmarking sites, rather than only on the one, maybe two they use, if any. And assuming that, if they indeed regularly use those social bookmarking sites, they haven't already got a bookmarklet or similar at hand to facilitate that function on all other sites as well that don't provide the in-page bookmarking function. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote: The simple process of adding a "favorites link" on a web page is a proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company. While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator. Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user benefit? You've got to be kidding me. While some may be inclined to include a "favorites" link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as well. Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's possible to improve the user experience of some without negatively affecting others. Not only that, but the competition pressures vendors in positive ways, more often than not leading to standardisation. If vendors sat around holding hands trying to reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers, innovation would halt altogether. Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
The Web Standards Group is for web designers & developers who are interested in web standards (HTML, XHTML, XML, CSS, XSLT etc.) and best practices (accessible sites using valid and semantically correct code). We aim to: * Provide web developers and designers with a forum to discuss issues and share knowledge (via our discussion list and regular meetings) * Provide web standards information and assistance to developers * Promote "web standards" within the development community Source: http://webstandardsgroup.org/ On Wed, March 25, 2009 10:46 pm, Nathan de Vries wrote: > On 26/03/2009, at 3:56 AM, Steve Green wrote: >> Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting >> requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does >> it take >> the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps >> everything >> else? > > You've pretty much summed up the reason I constantly ask myself why I > haven't unsubscribed from this list yet. To me, web standards evolve > by taking something that works, recognising its' usefulness, and > standardising it. In many cases, it's valid and necessary to use > proprietary features of browsers in lieu of standardised features; > whether it be using VML in one browser and SVG in another, Flash for > uploading files to indicate upload progress, vendor-specific > Javascript calls to add bookmarks, or IE's CSS filters for enabling > transparent backgrounds. > > Pragmatic use of standard *and* proprietary features of browsers (with > a preference towards standards) is my definition of someone who takes > standards seriously. Surprisingly (and unfortunately for many users of > their software), some of the more vocal on this list seem to disagree. > > > Cheers, > > Nathan de Vries > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, "Rick Faircloth" wrote: >> The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not) is >> that design for which the client is paying. > Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another to think out all the > angles and produce something that reaches the largest possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of the people I now work with, and all the > ones I think of as successful in web design/dev, sweat those details. You seem to assume that no one took the steps to create other options or inform in these situations. I have. And I've been told "no go, do it my way or the highway". Not everyone is reasonable about things like that. Some people insist they know it all and persist with ridiculous demands that are often non-standards compliant and downright ugly. Regardless of the alternatives they've been handed. I've dealt with some moronic requests when it comes to websites, from people that know nothing about it. I'm sure we all have at some point. > I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others would do the same is a question > of their own judgment, not their professionalism. It's good that you have the luxury to be able to make that call. The reality is that not everyone is in a position, financially or otherwise. Yes, it can be done. It is simply not always practical. That said, I'm in a position where I typically do get to call the shots. I want standards compliance. Every design is blood and sweat because I'm not compromising. But to get where I am, I had to put up with a lot of hideous nonsense along the way. I'm not saying let's just toss standards out the window. I'm just saying that the reality is that sometimes we're stuck with compromise, or worse, we don't even get to compromise. Learning how to balance conflicting requirements, or how to offer alternatives in some cases, strikes me as a valuable tool to advance the cause of usability and accessibility. As with any cause, sometimes advancement and education of the masses involves babysteps and doing what we can. Speaking of doing what we can: anyone taken a good look at whitehouse.gov? While they've made some great strides in modernizing the site, its sorely lacking in basic accessibility. For starters: fixed font sizes. I filled out the comment form to give feedback on the subject. If more of us piped up, it could benefit. Janice *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
While the concept may appear sound at first glance, it's based on a false, misleading and dishonest premise. The simple process of adding a "favorites link" on a web page is a proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company. While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator. Web developers sought to develop similar code so that the function would work in other browsers such as Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc., with no appreciable success. The mere name "favorites" should have been the clue since that term is also proprietary to that single browser. The actual industry term is bookmark. On the other hand, RSS feeds and links, "Subscribe to my RSS feed .." is an industry term using code accessible to all browsers. While created by a proprietary development group, its growth and development was more of an open standards approach. It eventually became an industry standard and it works in all browsers. Comparing "favorites" to "RSS" is unfair. It is comparing fish to bicycles, in more ways than one. The former smells in a relatively short period of time (and may contain chemicals not conducive to good health) while the latter will actually take you somewhere that you may choose to go, and you will feel better, too. Perhaps the analogy also applies to each function's pedigree as well. Standards are about equity of access. While some may be inclined to include a "favorites" link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as well. Still, some may not care. However, for those of us with legal requirements to provide equity of access regardless of the method, use of a "favorites" link is an implied endorsement of a particular tool from a particular manufacturer, and that is a big no no. It is a denial of access to others who do not live in a company town, who do not live in a company house, who do not buy from the company store and who do not respond to every query with, "Yes, Sir! May I have another, Sir!" Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it." -- George Bernard Shaw "Rick Faircloth" Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org 03/25/2009 02:48 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To cc Subject RE: [WSG] add to favorites? Spend a little time on Google searching "internet marketing call to action bookmark this page" and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking, such as "Subscribe to my RSS feed..." even though there is a button right on the page already. These types of call-to-action are typically scattered throughout a page's content and are considered critical for successful marketing. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? The argument continues to be shaky at best. "...compel a user..." in particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of the web as a medium. I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used feature? I would guess that the answer is "no" in both cases - but by all means prove me wrong! Andrew On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: > As was mentioned, it's a "call to action". Those who are familiar > with marketing will understand this concept. Also, it a user-friendly > way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without > jumping through the hoops the browsers require. > > It's the same principle as putting "Call us today at 918-878-8787 for > more info." Instead of just putting "918-878-8787". > > Rick > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, "Rick Faircloth" wrote: > The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not) > is that design for which the client is paying. Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another to think out all the angles and produce something that reaches the largest possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of the people I now work with, and all the ones I think of as successful in web design/dev, sweat those details. I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others would do the same is a question of their own judgment, not their professionalism. > A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving > accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however, > the cost is simply too high to make that a reality. First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or we'd all have self-driving cars already. Though what this has to do with pragmatic accessibility for web pages, which is generally a low-cost proposition for most of what's out there, is beyond me. Making content more accessible is not a boil-the-ocean strategy. Most of the basics for web accessibility take little work, and are easy to integrate into the average dev's everyday tasks. The only time it can be really costly is when it's been ignored the whole time the work was being done. > Likewise (...in that they are both referenced sequentially in one email...) > site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that > prohibit making their websites accessible to all. Or they may just choose > not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's. So, let me boil this down: web accessibility is like blind people driving. Wow. I think the only thing they may have in common is your willingness to contemplate them as an implementer. Which is fine, in and of itself. I'm not the boss of you. But if you're trying to equate the task of following a few best practices with reinventing the world's transportation infrastructure, well, good luck with that. - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
On 26/03/2009, at 3:56 AM, Steve Green wrote: Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? You've pretty much summed up the reason I constantly ask myself why I haven't unsubscribed from this list yet. To me, web standards evolve by taking something that works, recognising its' usefulness, and standardising it. In many cases, it's valid and necessary to use proprietary features of browsers in lieu of standardised features; whether it be using VML in one browser and SVG in another, Flash for uploading files to indicate upload progress, vendor-specific Javascript calls to add bookmarks, or IE's CSS filters for enabling transparent backgrounds. Pragmatic use of standard *and* proprietary features of browsers (with a preference towards standards) is my definition of someone who takes standards seriously. Surprisingly (and unfortunately for many users of their software), some of the more vocal on this list seem to disagree. Cheers, Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for "this list", but on my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a "new medium" and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on "banner blindness", naive site owners often still want banner-like graphics. In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to explain "marketing" to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years) the "call to action" falls *outside* the "vendor" environment (the site) and into the "customer" environment (the browser). As mentioned by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user, should s/he choose. Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these provide value to both "vendor" and "customer" - and are not limited to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant. Andrew www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions." On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote: -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web Standards. -- Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
Spend a little time on Google searching "internet marketing call to action bookmark this page" and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking, such as "Subscribe to my RSS feed..." even though there is a button right on the page already. These types of call-to-action are typically scattered throughout a page's content and are considered critical for successful marketing. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? The argument continues to be shaky at best. "...compel a user..." in particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of the web as a medium. I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used feature? I would guess that the answer is "no" in both cases - but by all means prove me wrong! Andrew On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: > As was mentioned, it's a "call to action". Those who are familiar > with marketing will understand this concept. Also, it a user-friendly > way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without > jumping through the hoops the browsers require. > > It's the same principle as putting "Call us today at 918-878-8787 for > more info." Instead of just putting "918-878-8787". > > Rick > > -Original Message- > From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org > [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On > Behalf Of David Dorward > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? > > designer wrote: >> Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to >> provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to >> favourites? > As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a > system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage. > > In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two > reasons why you might want to have such a feature. > > 1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their > browser has > built in. > > ... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't > know how to go back to them. > > 2. To cover up a "Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to > your bookmarks, pretty please" message with something resembling > something useful. > > ... which is just tacky. > > Are there any other reasons? > > -- > David Dorward > http://dorward.me.uk/ > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
This seems like a good solution and I certainly would use it. But the others who are against "bookmarking links" could not without violating principle. Although that single link provides a lot of convenience for the user, they could still visit all 11 plus sites to register their site on delicious, digg, google, facebook, twitter, etc. Therefore, according to the principle of "unobtrusiveness" and "duplication of functionality" defended by many on this list, that user convenience would be unacceptable. Too bad.this would have been a great enhancement to the user experience and, I'm sure, would be appreciated by the business interests whose links are represented. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:05 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? I have found using a service such as http://www.addthis.com/ which includes add to favorites/bookmark is fine. Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - From: Andrew Maben <mailto:and...@andrewmaben.com> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for "this list", but on my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a "new medium" and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on "banner blindness", naive site owners often still want banner-like graphics. In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to explain "marketing" to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years) the "call to action" falls *outside* the "vendor" environment (the site) and into the "customer" environment (the browser). As mentioned by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user, should s/he choose. Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these provide value to both "vendor" and "customer" - and are not limited to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant. Andrew www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions." (Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version) On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote: -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web Standards. -- Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
In my opinion that's the wrong list to ask such a question, should go to something more "web developing" like. My opinion about the button idea and web standards? Why not give a nice ajax button that when people click it gives them instruction in few screenshots/lines of text on how to favourite a certain website. Buttons and only IE? Well, I think that adding pages as bookmarks/favourites is one of those things that people know, but people who use internet more "savvy" way, if they use Firefox/any other good browser they most likely know how to favourite a website anyway, if they use IE then they might not be able to find it afterwards anyway, and don't even get me started on "add this page as your homepage" IE should fix that ages ago, it's being abused everywhere. Offtopic: I work for an IT company and there's lots of people who click links and get their IE blown by adding a page with popus on their homepage and then each time they start IE it f&^%$ them up... I really hope that the recent european commission case of fighting against browser monopoly will one day really do something and people will realise that Internet Explorer is not the only choice...many of them think of it as the only browser... -- Krystian Szastok Affordable, Freelance Web Designer in Eastbourne, East Sussex: http://eastbournewebdesign.net Mobile UK (Orange): 07528 036 337 Call for more information or email me. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
I have found using a service such as http://www.addthis.com/ which includes add to favorites/bookmark is fine. Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - From: Andrew Maben To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for "this list", but on my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a "new medium" and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on "banner blindness", naive site owners often still want banner-like graphics. In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to explain "marketing" to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years) the "call to action" falls *outside* the "vendor" environment (the site) and into the "customer" environment (the browser). As mentioned by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user, should s/he choose. Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these provide value to both "vendor" and "customer" - and are not limited to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant. Andrew www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions." (Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version) On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote: -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web Standards. -- Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for "this list", but on my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a "new medium" and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on "banner blindness", naive site owners often still want banner-like graphics. In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to explain "marketing" to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years) the "call to action" falls *outside* the "vendor" environment (the site) and into the "customer" environment (the browser). As mentioned by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user, should s/he choose. Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these provide value to both "vendor" and "customer" - and are not limited to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant. Andrew www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions." (Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version) On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote: -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web Standards. -- Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
On Mar 25, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Rick Faircloth wrote: When you have a boss, you do as the boss says, like it or not. Or quit, or be fired. Those are the options. If you have not been hired for your expertise, yes. Otherwise you are honor-bound to present the arguments, not just blindly obey - naturally if the boss chooses to ignore you then you have to do as you are told. But if you are working for someone who insists on acting against his own interests you'll be out of a job soon enough anyway Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not) is that design for which the client is paying. Web designers should offer suggestions and guidance to those who hire them for their expertise, but the decision to follow or disregard standards is up to the person footing the bill. A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however, the cost is simply too high to make that a reality. Likewise, site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that prohibit making their websites accessible to all. Or they may just choose not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of designer Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:03 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? My justification for wanting to do this is simple, and in my eyes, very sensible. However, it will no doubt cause ructions amongst the evangelists. I want to use frames. Frames, contrary to popular myth, are not an accessibility nightmare. The simple 2-frame frameset I have made validates perfectly, and passes the WCAG priority 3 test. We could argue about 'best practice' but that's not what we are here for. My thinking on this is that I've put a red 'home' link to the frameset on the top of every page that appears in the main frame, so that if I could 'add to favorites' the same way, a user can save the page and return to it later AND get back to the main frameset with one click. Hence, one of the valid criticisms of using frames is shot dead. Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
Quite right, Janice. When you have a boss, you do as the boss says, like it or not. Or quit, or be fired. Those are the options. No web "standard" is worth the loss of employment. If anyone wants to make the final decision about standards adherence, become the boss. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Janice Schwarz Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? I'm new to this group, so I can't speak for anyone else. However, this sounds like something that would be of interest to me. I'm certainly game for hearing how other people handle these conflicts, how they arrive at their decisions, and so on. The simple fact is that regardless of our commitment to web standards, many are often in the position where we don't get to make the call as to whether we can adhere to those standards or not. Sometimes, if we want to keep our day jobs or clients as freelancers, we have to pick our battles and sometimes pick and choose what we can get them to comply with and what we're willing to let go of. Janice -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Steve Green Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
A call-to-action "Bookmark This Page" does not provide the same functionality as a browser's bookmarking button when functionality is extended to include psychological functionality from the designer's perspective. >From a technical perspective, a bookmarking link and a bookmarking browser button can be used to achieve the same result, however, from the perspective of attempting to achieve the goal of affecting user behavior (or a user's function or performance), a link is *far* more functional than a browser's built-in bookmarking facility. Expand your definition of functionality. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Steve Green Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: 25 March 2009 15:18 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote: It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is. So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand. Andrew Maben www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com -- It makes no sense to me that you would provide a call to action and then not provide a means for the user to perform that action when it is so easy to do so. That will inevitably result in fewer people performing the action than would have done if you provided the means to do so. That's fine if it's your site but you are doing your clients a disservice if you do it to theirs. Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
My justification for wanting to do this is simple, and in my eyes, very sensible. However, it will no doubt cause ructions amongst the evangelists. I want to use frames. Frames, contrary to popular myth, are not an accessibility nightmare. The simple 2-frame frameset I have made validates perfectly, and passes the WCAG priority 3 test. We could argue about 'best practice' but that's not what we are here for. My thinking on this is that I've put a red 'home' link to the frameset on the top of every page that appears in the main frame, so that if I could 'add to favorites' the same way, a user can save the page and return to it later AND get back to the main frameset with one click. Hence, one of the valid criticisms of using frames is shot dead. Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
I'm new to this group, so I can't speak for anyone else. However, this sounds like something that would be of interest to me. I'm certainly game for hearing how other people handle these conflicts, how they arrive at their decisions, and so on. The simple fact is that regardless of our commitment to web standards, many are often in the position where we don't get to make the call as to whether we can adhere to those standards or not. Sometimes, if we want to keep our day jobs or clients as freelancers, we have to pick our battles and sometimes pick and choose what we can get them to comply with and what we're willing to let go of. Janice -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Steve Green Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
-Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web Standards. -- Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
Apparently this list is not aware of "many marketing practices", as the original poster was challenged as to the appropriateness as to the use of a "standard" marketing practice. If list members do not want to discuss topics, they should not bring them up. I didn't start this discussion, but I'll be glad to finish it and educate the list as to the "many marketing partices" of which some are not aware. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web Standards. On Wed, March 25, 2009 3:46 pm, Rick Faircloth wrote: > No, previous arguments still miss the point. > > > > Having a button on a browser for booksmarks is not comparable > > to having a "Bookmark this page" link on the browser screen. > > > > The link on the page is in the field-of-focus of a site visitor, whereas > > the browser button is not, making the idea of bookmarking the site > > more likely to come to mind and therefore, acted upon. > > > > Also, the words, "Bookmark this page" are a "call" or "prompt" to > > action, whereas the simple existence of a button with "Bookmark" > > identifies the button, but offers no encouragement to the user > > to user the button. > > > > It's the difference between walking into a room with another door > > and see a sign that says, "walk through this door", as opposed to just > > seeing the door. Both offer the opportunity to use the door, but > > the words "walk through this door" definitely causes the visitor to the > > room to consider using the door, whereas the simple existence of the > > door may be reacted to in multiple ways, including walking through the > door, > > avoiding the door, and ignoring the door. > > > > Again, "call-to-action", marketing concept which you may or may not > understand. > > > > Rick > > > > From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On > Behalf Of Andrew Maben > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:18 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? > > > > On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote: > > > > > > It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. > > > > But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser > functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it > is. > > > > So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand. > > > > > > Andrew Maben > > > > www.andrewmaben.net > > and...@andrewmaben.com > > > > "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need > instructions." > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: 25 March 2009 15:18 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote: It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is. So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand. Andrew Maben www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com -- It makes no sense to me that you would provide a call to action and then not provide a means for the user to perform that action when it is so easy to do so. That will inevitably result in fewer people performing the action than would have done if you provided the means to do so. That's fine if it's your site but you are doing your clients a disservice if you do it to theirs. Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web Standards. On Wed, March 25, 2009 3:46 pm, Rick Faircloth wrote: > No, previous arguments still miss the point. > > > > Having a button on a browser for booksmarks is not comparable > > to having a "Bookmark this page" link on the browser screen. > > > > The link on the page is in the field-of-focus of a site visitor, whereas > > the browser button is not, making the idea of bookmarking the site > > more likely to come to mind and therefore, acted upon. > > > > Also, the words, "Bookmark this page" are a "call" or "prompt" to > > action, whereas the simple existence of a button with "Bookmark" > > identifies the button, but offers no encouragement to the user > > to user the button. > > > > It's the difference between walking into a room with another door > > and see a sign that says, "walk through this door", as opposed to just > > seeing the door. Both offer the opportunity to use the door, but > > the words "walk through this door" definitely causes the visitor to the > > room to consider using the door, whereas the simple existence of the > > door may be reacted to in multiple ways, including walking through the > door, > > avoiding the door, and ignoring the door. > > > > Again, "call-to-action", marketing concept which you may or may not > understand. > > > > Rick > > > > From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On > Behalf Of Andrew Maben > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:18 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? > > > > On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote: > > > > > > It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. > > > > But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser > functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it > is. > > > > So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand. > > > > > > Andrew Maben > > > > www.andrewmaben.net > > and...@andrewmaben.com > > > > "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need > instructions." > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org > *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
The argument continues to be shaky at best. "...compel a user..." in particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of the web as a medium. I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used feature? I would guess that the answer is "no" in both cases - but by all means prove me wrong! Andrew On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: As was mentioned, it's a "call to action". Those who are familiar with marketing will understand this concept. Also, it a user-friendly way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without jumping through the hoops the browsers require. It's the same principle as putting "Call us today at 918-878-8787 for more info." Instead of just putting "918-878-8787". Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? designer wrote: Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites? As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage. In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two reasons why you might want to have such a feature. 1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their browser has built in. ... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't know how to go back to them. 2. To cover up a "Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to your bookmarks, pretty please" message with something resembling something useful. ... which is just tacky. Are there any other reasons? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
As was mentioned, it's a "call to action". Those who are familiar with marketing will understand this concept. Also, it a user-friendly way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without jumping through the hoops the browsers require. It's the same principle as putting "Call us today at 918-878-8787 for more info." Instead of just putting "918-878-8787". Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? designer wrote: > Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to > provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites? As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage. In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two reasons why you might want to have such a feature. 1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their browser has built in. ... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't know how to go back to them. 2. To cover up a "Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to your bookmarks, pretty please" message with something resembling something useful. ... which is just tacky. Are there any other reasons? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote: It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is. So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand. Andrew Maben www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com "In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions." *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. As such I think it's perfectly reasonable. Steve -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: 25 March 2009 13:36 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? > designer > Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites? The only one I can find is IE only: I know you're probably asking because a client insists on having it, but...have we not evolved yet beyond replicating browser functionality in-page? Will there also be a "make this my homepage" link? Sorry, being a grumpy bar-stewart today... P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise & Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 webmas...@salford.ac.uk www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
> designer > Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites? The only one I can find is IE only: I know you're probably asking because a client insists on having it, but...have we not evolved yet beyond replicating browser functionality in-page? Will there also be a "make this my homepage" link? Sorry, being a grumpy bar-stewart today... P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor Enterprise & Development University of Salford Room 113, Faraday House Salford, Greater Manchester M5 4WT UK T +44 (0) 161 295 4779 webmas...@salford.ac.uk www.salford.ac.uk A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
designer wrote: Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites? As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage. In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two reasons why you might want to have such a feature. 1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their browser has built in. ... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't know how to go back to them. 2. To cover up a "Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to your bookmarks, pretty please" message with something resembling something useful. ... which is just tacky. Are there any other reasons? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] add to favorites?
On 25/03/2009, at 11:15 PM, designer wrote: Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites? There is no way of doing this across all browsers, so all you're left with are the browsers who have provided a proprietary mechanism. Off the top of my head, only IE and Gecko-based browsers have this. You've already discovered window.external.addFavorite() for IE, so all that's left is the Mozilla/Firefox counterpart: window.sidebar.addPanel("Google", "http://www.google.com/";, ""); Cheers, Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***