Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Grampa Bill responds: >I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust >just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was >terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he >want to work as a machinist for the county. >I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician. Gee wiz Grampa, that must have been a long long long time ago before the unwritten rule was written. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. === Grampa Bill responds: I know of one SP who was a mechanic until his business went bust just before his call, He then sold house trailers for a while but was terminated because of too few sales. After a period of unemployment he want to work as a machinist for the county. I know of another who was (and is) an electronic technician. As for the importance of being a High Priest, I submit the following from the Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson_ Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.604 The temple work for the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence and other Founding Fathers has been done. All these appeared to Wilford Woodruff when he was president of the St. George Temple. President George Washington was ordained a high priest at that time. You will also be interested to know that, according to Wilford Woodruff's journal, John Wesley, Benjamin Franklin, and Christopher Columbus were also ordained high priests at that time. It is my understang that others of the founding fathers were ordained Elders as is common practice today when the dead receive their temple work. I'm not sure of the significance of these ordinations but thought I'd throw them out there. "Don't waste the atonement." Sue Woodbury, Oct. 20, 2002 Love y'all, Grampa Bill in Savannah / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:09:09 -0400, "Elmer L. Fairbank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: > > >Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's > >razor, so they can get their acts together. > > What's a razor? Till, a razor is that thing wives use on their legs to make sure that they can scratch your legs up with theirs simply by rubbing them against you a few days later. I know! My wife has one! Scott (who wouldn't want to touch one of those horrid razor things!) -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests
Mark >Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never >did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so >state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. >They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of >Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. Correct. The Nephites did not officiate in the Aaronic priesthood until after the Savior appeared to them. All priesthood administration in the BoM before Christ was in the high priesthood which is after the order of the Son of God. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Mark- > Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several > hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek > priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. True enough. I was referring to earlier, pre-Resurrection references to teachers and priests. But you bring up an interesting point: > Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were > not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when > under the law of Moses. I did not realize this, having never heard these statements; but now that you mention it, it seems pretty obvious that the Nephites would not have had the Levitical Priesthood. Duh. The Moroni reference is interesting. The term "priest" itself implies a Priesthood office, and Moroni 4-5 show that priests as well as elders could consecrate the sacrament, which as far as I know is purely a Priesthood function. Furthermore, Moroni 3 talks about the *ordination* of priests and teachers, the identical wording (or the same ideas, if the prayer is not meant to be verbatim) used in each, suggesting that both "priest" and "teacher" were Priesthood offices. Since the Nephite post-Resurrection office of priest had the authority to administer the sacrament, it's tempting to say that those two offices were identical to the Aaronic Priesthood offices of "priest" and "teacher" that we have today. However, your mention above of the teachings of our leaders, which I assume to be correct (do you have an actual citation(s)?), demonstrates that the Nephites were not in possession of the Aaronic Priesthood; so if "teacher" and "priest" were in fact Priesthood offices, as seems likely, they must have been offices in the Melchizedek Priesthood. Other possibilities? Maybe the Nephites had some other type of "lesser Priesthood", similar to our Aaronic Priesthood, and these were offices in that other Priesthood. Seems farfetched, but I have heard others talk about what they term "the Patriarchal Priesthood" as a separate thing from the Melchizedek Priesthood, or more correctly a subset of it. I have done no study of this issue, and the argumentation I've heard on it is most unconvincing; but if such a thing actually existed, then it's possible there was yet another Nephite Priesthood subset, similar to the Levitical/Aaronic and the Patriarchal. Another idea, one that to me seems more likely: If Joseph's use of the term "ordain" in translating Moroni 3 is taken more broadly, maybe as synonymous with "set apart", another possibilitiy presents itself. Perhaps "priest" and "teacher" did not refer to administrative/functional capacities that today we call "offices". Maybe they were more akin to what we today would term "callings", like "ward missionary" and "gospel doctrine teacher". The "elders" of the Nephite church in later times referred to the "disciples", meaning specifically the leaders selected by Christ, or the "virtual apostles" of the Nephites. Maybe all Nephite Priesthood leaders were called "elder". In that case, Moroni's statement that the elders or priests administered the sacrament would be like saying that the Church leaders or sacrament-administrators (i.e. those specifically authorized to administer the sacrament) took care of that ordinance. All speculation, of course; but knowing that the Aaronic Priesthood did not exist among the Nephites, and without further historical information, it may be the best we can do. > They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the > ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the > Melchizedek priesthood. This makes sense. Since the Aaronic Priesthood is a part of the higher Priesthood, it is reasonable that any holder of the higher Priesthood could officiate in a duty of the lesser Priesthood. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Tilly- > What's a razor? He's the guy whut grows the crops. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
- Stephen - Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I don't agree that "teacher" was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the Nephites, who were after all Jews and who were therefore under the law of Moses. === Moroni talks about teachers and priests. This is several hundred years after Christ, so the Nephites had the Melchizedek priesthood at that time and were not under the law of Moses. Several of the Brethren have stated that since the Nephites were not Levites they never did have the Aaronic priesthood even when under the law of Moses. Therefore, so state these same Brethren, the Nephites always only had the Melchizedek priesthood. They further state (IIRC) that they could officiate in the ordinances of the law of Moses through the authority of the Melchizedek priesthood. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
At 03:13 10/25/2002 +, St Stephen wrote: Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's razor, so they can get their acts together. What's a razor? Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
Gary, all this side discussion about Alma 13 and such is interesting enough, and I'm happy enough to continue it -- though I suspect that, upon review of the relevant teachings and a careful rereading of Alma's words, you will agree that Alma 13 is much more inclusive than you've been thinking, and that it in fact applies to all Melchizedek Priesthood holders, not simply those who hold the administrative Priesthood office of high priest. But the central question remains: Where do you derive your doctrine that all men must eventually hold the Melchizedek Priesthood office of high priest in order to receive exaltation? That's the genesis of this thread, and I have yet to see any evidence that this doctrine exists in holy writ, or that it is taught by, approved by, or even believed by the general authorities. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Gary- > You give some nice definitions, but can you show where these > definitions come from? Mostly from the scriptures themselves. I am pretty sure that the Bible never explicitly specifies that Enos was Adam's grandson, but the meaning is clear enough that I can say that anyway. Similarly, Alma's meaning is not easily mistaken. > I agree that the term "high priest" can have more than one > meaning, but there are many Church leaders who would disagree > with your Alma 13 assessment, and say that those were, indeed, > high priests in the "modern sense" as you so put it. Name one. For my part, I name Elder Hilbig of the Seventy, who used the same gloss (if you care to call it such) as I have when he said last year in general conference: "The prophet Alma explained that men ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood on earth have been 'called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling' (Alma 13:3)." (I might also quote any number of other general authorities, e.g. Elder Maxwell, who in April 1986 general conference also followed this gloss, saying: "In fact, we learn that all faithful men of the priesthood were 'called and prepared from the foundation of the world' (Alma 13:3)..."; or the reference in Elder Nelson's October 1987 conference talk: "Scriptures also relate that the Lord God foreordained priests prepared from the foundation of the world according to his foreknowledge. Thus, our calling to the holy priesthood was foreseen before we were born (see Alma 13:1-5)." But, I won't bother.) > I say that the term is an ancient one, No one disputes that the term "high priest" is ancient. > that we were foreordained as high priests, according to Alma. No one disputes this, either. The dispute is Alma's meaning: I (and apparently the general authorities) say this means a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, while you say it only refers to those who hold the office of high priest. > I use Occam's Razor on this, as your definition requires a > twisting of terms (or redefinition, anyway). Perhaps you should tell Elders Maxwell, Nelson, and Hilbig about Occam's razor, so they can get their acts together. > If Alma says faithful men were foreordained as high priests, > why can't you accept it as it is written? I do accept it **as it is written**, Gary. In my view, it is you who does not accept it as written, insisting instead on applying your anachronistic definition. Remember, the office of "high priest" did not exist at the time Joseph Smith translated Alma's words. > I mean, there are different MP titles given in the BoM, even > though I grant they aren't exactly the same as we have today > (obviously "teacher" was an office in the MP for the Nephites). Though this is off the main thread, it's an interesting side thread. I don't agree that "teacher" was a Melchizedek Priesthood office for the Nephites; the Melchizedek Priesthood was not generally held among the Jews, so I don't see why it would have been generally held among the Nephites, who were after all Jews and who were therefore under the law of Moses. If "teacher" was a Priesthood office, I expect it pertained to the Aaronic Priesthood; however, my supposition is that it was not a Priesthood office at all, but more like what we today would call a "calling". In other words, a teacher was simply one who was authorized to teach. > And are you trying to tell me that Abraham's desire to be a > high priest just means he wanted to hold the MP? Yes. This is *exactly* what I'm saying. > Why didn't he just say he desired to be a priesthood holder, then? He did. He said that he wanted to be a holder of the Priesthood of the patriarchs, the high Priesthood. That is, he wanted to be a high priest. That's not a Priesthood office, it's a holder of the Priesthood. > Why do we have to twist his terms, when they are clear enough > without redefining them? Because you are using an anachronistic application of the terms. > Finally, we are told that there will be an ordination to become > a god, that we will be set apart as "kings and priests." Since > you already hold the MP as an elder, why must one be reordained > a priest? Let me turn the question back on you. Since you already hold the office of high priest, why must you be reordained a priest? Or are you suggesting that, as a high priest, you have no further need to be ordained a king and priest in the eternities, because you've already received all you need? > BTW, I'm not teaching false doctrine. Nor did I say you were. I said that if the doctrine you preach were taught (note the subjunctive) as gospel, it would be false doctrine. I assume you are not teaching this speculation as gospel, so therefore it's not
Re: [ZION] High Priests
"There are in this greater priesthood five offices or callingselder, seventy, high priest, patriarch, and apostleyet the priesthood is the same; and the priesthood is greater than any of its offices. We are a kingdom of brethren, a congregation of equals, all of whom are entitled to receive all of the blessings of the priesthood. There are no blessings reserved for apostles that are not freely available to all the elders of the kingdom; blessings come because of obedience and personal righteousness, not because of administrative positions." (Bruce R McConkie Priesthood session, Saturday, October 1, 1977) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
>From what I've noticed here in my ward-- Prospective Elders: 98% Inactive* Elders: Seems like 25-30% Inactive, at least here High Priests: 5-10% Inactive, but it seems as if the inactivity occurs mainly for health reasons, such as an extended hospitalization As Paul O. noted, Prospective Elders are counted in the numbers for the Elders Quorum, regardless of the actual priesthood office the member has (if any). On that basis, the 50% inactivity rate for the entire Quorum sounds just about right. /Sandy/ (* The 2% in this category are invariably recent converts, and most of these don't remain Prospective Elders for very long, as they receive the Melchezidek Priesthood within months to perhaps over a year. The remaining 98% either dropped off the radar screen shortly after being baptised, or else fell away while they were still attending Aaronic Priesthood quorums.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>Till, who hopes he hasn't offended Of course not. I'm the one around here that probably is the most offensive. When I was a kid I use to through rocks at beehives and shoot my bee bee gun at the neighbors windows. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
When I lived in Seattle, when I was 14 I got my patriarchal blessing (this was in the old Renton ward of the Seattle Stake -- there are now 2 or 3 stakes in the region that old ward covered, which dates me!). The patriarch asked me if I wouldn't please try to friendship his son, who was going inactive. I tried but we didn't have much in common -- his favourite hobby was shooting sparrows with his BB gun from his bedroom window. Ironically I was pretty good with a BB gun and a pellet gun, although I never actually owned one. But my cousins had them, also .22's. They lived on a farm in Saskatchewan and were used to shooting vermin around the granaries, and they first taught me to shoot. They would put an old ace of spades card or something like that on a clothesline, and we'd use it for target practice. They never killed animals needlessly -- not even grasshoppers. The hardest thing my older cousin Donnie (who's about 4 years older than me) had to do was about when I was 9 or 10. A chick was born with its head on the front of its thorax instead of on top, and would die of starvation or asphyxiation. My uncle told Donnie to kill the chick to put it out of its misery, and I came along out of curiosity and to lend moral support. We were both crying on the way back -- Donnie whacked the poor critter against a fence post to kill it. Paul Osborne wrote: > >Till, who hopes he hasn't offended > > Of course not. I'm the one around here that probably is the most > offensive. When I was a kid I use to through rocks at beehives and shoot > my bee bee gun at the neighbors windows. :-) > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul (from a post in reply to mine regarding the HP money issue): > That's really odd. But administrators make more money than > everyone else under the administration so he has the most > money. I'm right and you're wrong. John: > I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order > to stir up a > discussion. I coached him while he was here. > > It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? Provocative and productive are different (although not necessarily mutually exclusive). I think Paul's statement from above: "I'm right and you're wrong." is the former but not the latter. For the sake of healthy discussion and spiritual growth, may I suggest that we refrain from the provocative when it is not also clearly productive. --Jeff. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 21:46 10/23/2002 -0500, St Paul wrote: I will admit that I used to annoyed about it in the past. Till detects that it is still unresolved But it is the Lord's church and he can do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it. You're on the right track, though but I'm sure he had sufficient for his means Here's the key. I'm working on it. :-) Absolutely the best statement yet. With this, all things can be accomplished. Till, who hopes he hasn't offended / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 21:43 10/23/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a comfortable life. Not so sure I agree, Gary. Reference Approaching Zion Chapters 4 and 5. Not so sure earned is the correct choice of terms here. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne wrote: > > And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates > too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his > computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now > in my mind. > Having trouble sleeping, are we? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote: > >It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had > >a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, > >in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. > > Yes but that is not what the CHI says. A man who would be more comfortable > meeting with the high priests because of his age could be authorized to do > so without ordaining him a high priest. This is true. As in my original anecdote, I even taught HPs while a 70, and met with them for several years before being ordained a HP. > Unless there is compelling reason > otherwise, such as inspiration to the stake president, a man is called to > be a high priest only if his calling requires it. > > At least that is my understanding. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
At 11:29 PM 10/23/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: I do agree with at least one thing you've said: High priests are far more likely to be active than elders. Physically? ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
>I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that fewer than 5 >percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone here confirm or deny >this? Sounds about right. Keep in mind though that this also includes the perspective elders who never got ordained. Gee wizz. Now I feel like I'm in with the loosers. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests More Active Than Elders
-John- > I have heard that half of all elders are inactive. But that > fewer than 5 percent of high priests are inactive. Can anyone > here confirm or deny this? I can't confirm or deny Church-wide, of course, but around here that's not the case. 50% is approximately right for the elders, probably a bit high, but 5% is definitely too low for the high priests. > I speculate that by the time a man is called to be a high > priest he has proven that his interest in the gospel is not > a temporary thing. Elders, because they are generally much > younger, have not lived long enough to demonstrate by their > record that they will remain active no matter what. Maybe in some places, but I doubt that's the case here. Of the six elder's quorum presidents I have had in Redmond, four have been over 40 years old. Of the other two, one was a recent convert of about 26 years of age, and the other was in his early 30s and was clearly being fast-tracked and groomed for administrative service (he's currently in the bishopric). Our elder's quorum has also, until very recently, included a very active brother in his 50s and several very active men in their 40s. They had long since "demonstrated by their record" their activity. But we live in a very active area with lots of leadership-quality men, and I suspect the local leaders prefer not to make men high priests just because they have turned 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever. Just my suspicions. I do agree with at least one thing you've said: High priests are far more likely to be active than elders. This is to be expected, since high priests are the leaders, and the leaders are usually selected from among the most active and faithful of the Saints (men). But that should not be considered a slight upon those faithful Saints of whatever age who are elders. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a >discussion. I coached him while he was here. > >It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? Yep. Your s right John. I like to be provocative and stir things up. It's fun, but I would feel bad if I hurt someones feelings. And, yes, John gave me some good pointers. I've seen how John operates too and have watched him type letters to the list. I've seen his computer, chair, book shelves, and table. I can visualize him right now in my mind. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 09:43 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most would prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an apostle or stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. I think it depends on where you are. There is little prestige in being a bishop or stake president here in this part of Alaska. But in the SLC-Provo area those callings are definitely prestige callings. You can tell by listening to the wives. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might burn up." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 08:48 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Gary Smith wrote: I would say that most apostles will have money. There are exceptions, though fewer and fewer as the Church grows. Even today, many of our apostles are not wealthy, but are comfortable. In my family "comfortable" is a euphemism for wealthy. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I agree with everything you are saying Gary but I'm not thinking that all the GA's were born with silver spoons. I know they worked hard and got educated and have fine jobs that pay quite well. That is the nature of the man who gets the call. I am merely pointing out how the Lord does business and was not being critical about it. Me personally, it matters not what the profession of my bishop is. If he has the Spirit and the mantle that is all that matters. I'm sure you agree with that. But, I can understand how you would prefer an educated man. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 21:43:34 -0500 Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver > platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver > spoon in > the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education > they > received was from hard work. > > Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an > apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography > on his > reaction when called as an apostle. Ask your stake president his > thoughts > on being called a stake president. I'll bet he wasn't jumping for > joy. > Rather, he was humbling submitting to the calling. > > There is nothing prestigious to these callings. There is some > recognition, but in all reality, the pay isn't that great. Most > would > prefer to make it to heaven without the experience of being an > apostle or > stake president, but the humble ones accept the call when given. > > These men are successful in life because they earned their success. > In > earning that success, they made themselves useful to God and His > work. Of > course God is probably going to call an educated man over a ditch > digger. > If you had a major struggle in your life, would you prefer your > bishop be > a psychiatrist or a day laborer? Educated or illiterate? > Financially > comfortable or standing by the roadside with a sign "will work for > food"? > > > God uses those who have qualified themselves for the work. Many are > called, but few chosen. Many aren't chosen because they try and do > things > their way, rather than God's way. They want to use the priesthood > for > their own use, rather than make themselves a useful tool for God to > use. > > The Brethren had comfortable lives because they earned a > comfortable > life. The prestige came only because they worked hard and earned it. > If > you or I don't receive prestige, it is probably because we haven't > done > ng prestigious. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 12:03 PM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. --- Jesus was a carpenter. Peter was a fisherman. Joseph Smith was a farmer. Brigham Young was a glazier, I believe. Throughout the history of the Church, ancient and modern, the prophets have been not only pencil pushers, but also tradesmen. If there is a temporary abundance of paper shufflers in position of leadership, it is because at this time in history that is what the Lord needs. Perhaps it will be different tomorrow. Isn't it wonderful that this is a living Church. It grows and shifts to meet the current situation. I think that Paul is being deliberately provocative in order to stir up a discussion. I coached him while he was here. It works pretty good, doesn't it Paul? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: "Mankind". Basically, it's made up of two separate words - "mank" and "ind". What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>What is your definition of "money"? Is it $40,000? $50,000? $100,000? >$1,000,000? My definition of money is when you have it in the bank and you don't owe anyone anything except perhaps the mortgage. >Most school administrators I know make about $50K. So if that is your >definition of "money", then you are right, most stake presidents AND High >Priests have money. By the time they get to that age, they have saved up >enough and worked their way up in their business enough to make $50K or >more a year. Point taken. Thanks. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
At 08:47 AM, Wednesday, 10/23/02, Paul Osborne wrote: I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. I had a stake president in southern California who was a manager of a college bookstore. I don't think he made much more than minimum wage. The neighborhood where he lived, the clothes he wore, and the car he drove would certainly bear out that out. Yet he was an excellent stake president. While it is true that most stake presidents are wealthy by my standards, that just means they are successful in their work. Even a truck driver or mechanic can be wealthy if he is good enough. And it stands to reason that the Lord would prefer competent men as his bishops and stake presidents. That is probably why I will never have to make that sacrifice. I have no special, demonstrated competence as an administrator. Teaching jobs are at least as important as bean counting, pencil pushing, and paper shuffling anyway. I would much rather teach Sunday School, a priesthood quorum, or seminary than serve in any administrative calling. The pay is just as good, and the work is a lot more fun. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "It takes a big man to cry, but it takes a bigger man to laugh at that man." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Gary Smith wrote: > You make it sound like these jobs were handed to them on a silver > platter. Not so. They all started at the bottom, with no silver spoon in > the mouth. Any money the GAs have, they earned it. Any education they > received was from hard work. > > Do you think any of them had been wishing and hoping to become an > apostle? Definitely not. Try reading President Kimball's biography on his > reaction when called as an apostle. This was precisely what I as thinking of. He really struggled as an insurance broker when he was a young man. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests
At 11:41 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Gary Smith wrote: It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. Yes but that is not what the CHI says. A man who would be more comfortable meeting with the high priests because of his age could be authorized to do so without ordaining him a high priest. Unless there is compelling reason otherwise, such as inspiration to the stake president, a man is called to be a high priest only if his calling requires it. At least that is my understanding. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd like to see more and more planets fall under the ruthless domination of our solar system." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
Paul Osborne: ... to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. ___ Nice thought. Not true. And I think you may have a real hangup with the word pre$tige. But, that's just my own personal opinion, and I will have another nice day again tomorrow, thank you. Poor as I am in the things of this world. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Val wrote: >I must wholly disagree here. Our former stake president is only >high school educated and a construction worker. He was my Bishop when I >was a little girl, and back then he was managing a health spa. In fact, >we had no font in the building, so I was baptized in the pool at the spa. >They always lived in very modest homes--not luxurious at all. >He is also one of the most spiritual men I have ever known. >The SP before him lost his job, was supporting a son on a >mission, AND SP. They were living out of their food storage for many >months while he was unemployed. Again, probably THE most spiritual man I >have ever known. He spoke at my husband's funeral in March. I swear, he >still speaks directly to the Lord. Well. I guess the unwritten rule was broken. I appreciate hearing these stories. It helps me see just how flexible the Lord can be. >I don't know how you can know who the Lord accepts and who He >doesn't anyway? You must have some bitter experience to be speaking this >way about the Lord's annointed. I believe the scriptures are clear when >we are told we need nothing more that a broken heart and a contrite >spirit. I see nothing there about advanced degrees or family money or an >excellent salary. I don't understand why you said the above. How have I spoken against the Lord's anointed? Isn't it so that our beloved leaders have advanced degrees, family money, excellent salaries, and prestigious careers? I'm only pointing out the facts as I have noted them from the Church News. However, I did my little study several years ago. Perhaps I'm out of date regarding the unwritten rule? I've said nothing against the leaders or against the Lord for that matter. I'm simply pointing out policy as I understand it based on my view of the results. I will admit that I used to annoyed about it in the past. But it is the Lord's church and he can do whatever he wants, so I have come to accept it. If the Lord wants a bricklayer for an apostle or a street sweeper--he can do it. But his policies show otherwise. Obviously hidden talents of blue collar men are not given the opportunity to serve in the highest leadership positions in the church. But this is the will of the Lord and so it goes. >I'm sure if we were to do a survey of SP's, and even Area A's you >would find a majority of them are humble "Laborers". I think the fact >that our beloved President Hinckley was a man of fairly meager means >should be enough. After all, shouldn't we all be laborers in the Lord's >vineyards? The statistics say otherwise, Val. I don't think Elder Hinkley was rich by any means but I'm sure he had sufficient for his means and he rose to the top of his class. That is the sort of man the Lord looks at before the call is made. >As for resources--we are told, time and time again, to get out of >debt and to save money. The men "UP" there have obviously done just >that. If you want to be there, then follow the prophet. Simple I'm working on it. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 18:09:51 -0500 Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten > rule > is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a > prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is > looking > for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a > GA, let > alone a SP. The Lord doesn't accept manual laborers into the > apostleship. > .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ Dear Paul: I must wholly disagree here. Our former stake president is only high school educated and a construction worker. He was my Bishop when I was a little girl, and back then he was managing a health spa. In fact, we had no font in the building, so I was baptized in the pool at the spa. They always lived in very modest homes--not luxurious at all. He is also one of the most spiritual men I have ever known. The SP before him lost his job, was supporting a son on a mission, AND SP. They were living out of their food storage for many months while he was unemployed. Again, probably THE most spiritual man I have ever known. He spoke at my husband's funeral in March. I swear, he still speaks directly to the Lord. I don't know how you can know who the Lord accepts and who He doesn't anyway? You must have some bitter experience to be speaking this way about the Lord's annointed. I believe the scriptures are clear when we are told we need nothing more that a broken heart and a contrite spirit. I see nothing there about advanced degrees or family money or an excellent salary. I'm sure if we were to do a survey of SP's, and even Area A's you would find a majority of them are humble "Laborers". I think the fact that our beloved President Hinckley was a man of fairly meager means should be enough. After all, shouldn't we all be laborers in the Lord's vineyards? As for resources--we are told, time and time again, to get out of debt and to save money. The men "UP" there have obviously done just that. If you want to be there, then follow the prophet. Simple. val [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an >apostle? A janitor, a manual laborer, and a machinist are not qualified to become apostles but a rich rancher and a rich farmer could be considered. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President >Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so >Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their >books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have >university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been >mainly manual labourers. Did I say that a man had to be wealthy to become a GA? The unwritten rule is that he has to have money and resources. He almost always has a prestigious job and a fine education. That is what the Lord is looking for. If you don't have those benefits you can't be called to be a GA, let alone a SP. The Lord doesn't accept manual laborers into the apostleship. >President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. Yes, and he worked with the finest men. You can't do that unless your getting a pretty good salary. He worked his way to the top. >President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. >President Faust: attorney (lawyer). $$$ and prestige. >President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of >Religion. A pilot is about the most prestiges job in all of the armed forces. I'll bet he had a fine salary as he worked his way up in the church religious system which is certainly a prestiges place to be by LDS standards. >Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. >Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to >president of BYU. $$$ and prestige >Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church >commissioner of education. >Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. $$$ and prestige >Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court >justice. >Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. $$$ and prestige >Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. >Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; >subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. $$$ and prestige >Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. >Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. >Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77 $$$ and prestige Need I say more? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Actually in the 3rd world a larger than proportional share of line authority callings go to Church/CES employees. And, as I loved to tease Grant Johnson (I think that's his name -- the Book of Mormon Answerman who infuriated many LDS by saying that only those soldiers who fought for the Allies in WWII were righteous) by pointing out that Elder Uchtdorf used to be a Luftwaffe fighter pilot (mind you, he was too young to have served during the war). He retired and became a civilian pilot, for Lufthansa and several of its subsidiaries, iirc, and eventually came to be the chief training pilot for Lufthansa (that was told to me by the chief training pilot for Air New Zealand, who had by coincidence contacted me via email once about something, and found out I was LDS -- he wasn't, but told me this about Elder Uchtdorf, saying he was widely respected in the industry). Paul Osborne wrote: > >I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to > >be called as a stake president. > > I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the > money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get > called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money > too. It's one of those unwritten rules. > ;-) > > >I can further assure you that stake president is not a high > >calling. > > Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him > too. > > >And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not > >a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different > >office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. > > Ok. Have a nice day. :-) > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Gee...it seems to me that President Hinckley worked for his entire professional life for the Church Missionary Department (or some such like that). I'm pretty sure that one doesn't get rich working for the Church. I'm also sure that these brethren have been faithful in paying 100% tithing, which opens the windows of heaven to pour out blessings on them. I am also sure that paying one's tithing makes one more conscious of where the money is going and thus more careful of it, and more likely to save a higher percentage of it. Just a few thoughts...nothing more... Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 10/23/2002 2:04:59 PM > Subject: Re: [ZION] High Priests have money > > Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? > > To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? > > Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. > > > Vic > > > --- Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the > >>people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have > >>shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. > > > > > > > >Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to > >get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making > >my point, Gary. > > > >The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just > >not good enough for the job. You have to have money. > > > >Paul O > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > >Only $9.95 per month! > >Visit www.juno.com > > > >/// // > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > _ > Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. ---> http://www.DCemail.com ---> A Washington Online Community Member ---> > http://www.DCpages.com > > _ > Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Mark Gregson wrote: > > > To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? > > Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither >President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their >employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money >from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the >Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to >have been mainly manual labourers. > > President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. > Specifically, most of his later Church career, professionally speaking, was spent in either journalism- or public affairs-related positions. > > President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. > So does he report to Sister Dew now? (who's president and CEO of Deseret Book Co.) [just teasing. I know that Pres. Monson is no longer the GM of Deseret News] > > President Faust: attorney (lawyer). > > President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of >Religion. > > Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. > > Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant >to president of BYU. > > Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church >commissioner of education. > > Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. > > Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court >justice. > > Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and >investments. > > Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. > > Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; >subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. > > Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. > > Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. > > Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. > > = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
> To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Here are some of the former occupations of all the current apostles. Neither President Hinckley nor President Packer could have become wealthy from their employment, so Paul's theory fails in those cases (granted, they may have made money from their books, investments, consulting fees, etc.). All or almost all the Brethren have university degrees and several have multiple degrees. None appear to have been mainly manual labourers. President Hinckley: employee of the Church since completing his mission. President Monson: general manager of Deseret Press. President Faust: attorney (lawyer). President Packer: pilot during WWII, supervisor of Seminaries and Institutes of Religion. Elder Perry: vice president and treasurer of department store chain in Boston. Elder Haight: district and regional manager of large retail store chain, assistant to president of BYU. Elder Maxwell: executive vice president of the University of Utah, Church commissioner of education. Elder Nelson: Renowned surgeon and medical researcher. Elder Oaks: nine years as president of BYU, and three years as Utah Supreme Court justice. Elder Ballard: various business enterprises, including automotive, real estate and investments. Elder Wirthlin: president of trade association in Utah. Elder Scott: Worked 12 years developing military and private nuclear power reactors; subsequently consultant to nuclear power industry. Elder Hales: jet fighter pilot; was an executive with four major national companies. Elder Holland: president of Brigham Young University. Elder Eyring: president of Ricks College, 1971-77. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- __ Download the FREE Opera browser at www.opera.com/download/ Free OperaMail at http://www.operamail.com/ Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Paul Osborne: >I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to >be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. ... It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) ___ Glad to note you have a sense of humor, since I have never seen any facts in the Church News that tell how much stake presidents get paid in their work. I will agree that many do well. The same skills of hard work, administrative experience, and leadership they have gained in Church callings serve to benefit them in their work, as well. But not all of them are well-paid "money guys". I know several who served while living under the poverty level. And we know what those unwritten rules are, because they are actually written down and posted at John's website. :-) Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests
FWIW, this is also my reading of references to "high priests" in *most* scriptures (I won't make a univeral claim because of course the D&C, especially in 84 but elsewhere, too, makes a distinction between different offices of the MP). IOW, it's a reference to the Melchizedek Priesthood in general. So I'm with Paul on this one (and apparently Stephen); namely, that the MP itself is a necessary and sufficient condition for exaltation to the highest level of the CK, and it doesn't matter which office within the MP one has been ordained to. In a more personal opinion, I speculate that the offices have more to do with building the kingdom here on the earth than they do with matters of exaltation. Stephen Beecroft wrote: > -Gary- > > We learn in D&C 107 that an apostle is a high priest > > And an elder is a deacon. May we therefore say that in order to bless by > the laying on of hands, one must be a deacon? Technically it's true, but > it is certainly misleading. > > In many places in scripture, "high priest" is used to mean "holder of > the high Priesthood". Don't confuse that with the modern office of "high > priest", which is a different thing. > > You didn't respond to many other points I brought up, but the main one > is: Please show some scriptural substantiation for the doctrine you > taught that all men must be ordained to the modern office of high priest > in order to progress in their exaltation in the eternities. > > Stephen > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Will we ever see a janitor, a manual laborer, a machinist, a farmer, a rancher, as an apostle? To test this out - what are the current or former occupations of the apostles? Its interesting that a carpenter ended up saving mankind. Vic --- Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the >>people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have >>shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. > > > >Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to >get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making >my point, Gary. > >The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just >not good enough for the job. You have to have money. > >Paul O >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today >Only $9.95 per month! >Visit www.juno.com > >/ >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// >/ > _ Washington DC's Largest FREE Email service. ---> http://www.DCemail.com ---> A Washington Online Community Member ---> http://www.DCpages.com _ Select your own custom email address for FREE! Get [EMAIL PROTECTED] w/No Ads, 6MB, POP & more! http://www.everyone.net/selectmail?campaign=tag / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an >administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income >bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with >regard to income within the stake boundaries. > >How can you justify statements like that, Paul? The Lord will call whom >He will call, income notwithstanding. That's really odd. But administrators make more money than everyone else under the administration so he has the most money. I'm right and you're wrong. Where do you live? Yes, the Lord calls whoever he wants but they always have money, resources, and prestige. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
>I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to >be called as a stake president. I followed it for years in the Church News and have clearly seen that the money guys get the callings. I can't deny those facts. The guys who get called in third world countries are the merchants and they have money too. It's one of those unwritten rules. ;-) >I can further assure you that stake president is not a high >calling. Well, he is the boss of my Elders Quroum President. And, I look up to him too. >And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not >a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different >office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Ok. Have a nice day. :-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
> -Original Message- > From: Paul Osborne [mailto:osborne1962@;juno.com] > > Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required > in order to get those high callings of Stake President and > up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. My former stake president was a public school teacher and later an administrator and my current stake president is in a similar income bracket. Both of them are most likely below the 50th percentile with regard to income within the stake boundaries. How can you justify statements like that, Paul? The Lord will call whom He will call, income notwithstanding. --Jeff. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money
-Paul- > The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people > are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. If I remember correctly, Elder Packer spent his professional life in the CES, a job practically guaranteed to keep you dressed in rags. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests have money -- not
Paul Osborne (replying to someone else): Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. ___ I can assure you that money is not a requirement in order to be called as a stake president. I can further assure you that stake president is not a high calling. And while I'm here, I would also add that high priest is not a higher office in the Melchizedek Priesthood, just a different office, with specialized (and temporary) responsibilities. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
Phew! Now at least I don't have to worry about dealing with THAT calling! Jon > The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just > not good enough for the job. You have to have money. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
>Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the >people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO have >shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Right. And your "ALSO" points out that the money is required in order to get those high callings of Stake President and up. Thank you for making my point, Gary. The Lord will not call a poor man to be an apostle. Poor people are just not good enough for the job. You have to have money. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High Priests have money
I was referring to Stake President and up. They have money and prestige. There are plenty of talented yet poor High Priests who never get the call because they don't have money. Money is a prerequisite to those callings. I hope that it doesn't sound like I am faulting the Lord. I'm simply pointing out how the Lord does business. He depends on money and if you don't have it you won't get those high callings of Stake President and up. That's the bottom line. It's always about money. Paul O --- On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 00:02:00 -0500 Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have to disagree with Paul on this one. I know several high priests > who > barely eke out a living. I've been one for 14 years, and was only a > Buck > Sergeant in the Air Force when first called. I promise you, they > don't > get the big bucks. > > My current bishop works as the general carpenter for the YMCAs here. > To > make ends meet, his wife also works (their kids are all big). And I > could > give you many other examples, and not only here in Alabama, either. > > Yes, I think that the Lord has finances as a consideration for who > he > calls to certain callings. Moreso, I think the Lord considers a > person's > talents and capabilities for a certain calling, especially in a > presidency. Just as the Lord is going to call a healthy brother to > be > bishop, over one that is homebound; The brother who has developed > many > talents is of much more use to the Lord in the work than one who has > not > developed his talents. Such a brother is likely to have become > successful > in business also. > > Next, the Lord uses people who work hard. Imagine a bishop who only > gives > a couple hours a week to the calling. The ward would fall apart! The > Lord > looks for hard workers, dependable people who he knows will > sacrifice the > television programs and leisure time, in order to serve faithfully. > This > type of person also happens to be the type who tends to succeed in > business. > > Don't condemn the brethren simply because it seems the Lord (or the > people) picks a lot of wealthy people. He does it because they ALSO > have > shown other great gifts of service, wisdom, and faithfulness. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High Priests
-Gary- > We learn in D&C 107 that an apostle is a high priest And an elder is a deacon. May we therefore say that in order to bless by the laying on of hands, one must be a deacon? Technically it's true, but it is certainly misleading. In many places in scripture, "high priest" is used to mean "holder of the high Priesthood". Don't confuse that with the modern office of "high priest", which is a different thing. You didn't respond to many other points I brought up, but the main one is: Please show some scriptural substantiation for the doctrine you taught that all men must be ordained to the modern office of high priest in order to progress in their exaltation in the eternities. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High priests
At 07:40 PM 10/22/2002 +, Stephen wrote: -Gary- > The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president. In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well, of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high priest. > Yet, his keys are limited. As are the bishop's or stake president's. If a High Priest in our branch (we have 4 of them) wants to baptize one of his children, he needs the permission of our Branch President, an Elder. If a High Priest in our branch wants to bless or pass the Sacrament, which happens almost every week, he does so with the approval of our Branch President, an Elder. I remember when our Branch President was set apart, he was given the keys of presidency, which certainly counts for something. Rick Mathis / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
Gary said: > There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to > an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), Yep. >but > eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will > have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. I don't think so Gary and neither does Bruce R. McConkie: "Only an elder! Only the office which enables a man to enter the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and to have his wife and children bound to him with an everlasting tie; only the office which prepares a man to be a natural patriarch to his posterity and to hold dominion in the house of Israel forever; only the office required for the receipt of the fullness of the blessings in the house of the Lord; only the office which opens the door to eternal exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, where man becomes as God is. I would say that you don't have to hold the priesthood to make it into the lower realm of the celestial kingdom and you don't have to be a High Priest to be exalted in the highest. I see the office of High Priest as pertaining to this earth only. The same with apostle too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
I think I see your point, even past the tongue in your cheek, and hadn't thought about that. The Lord needs a pool to draw from, and the HP are that pool, so whether any given HP is or is not eventually called to what I keep calling a posiiton of line authority (to use a secular term) is irrelevant. Is that what you're saying? It makes sense to me. In fact, it reminds me in many ways of a talk BRMcC gave in, iirc, 1975, at a Friday Forum at the U of Utah Institute of Religion. He said there were more than enough men in the Church who were spiritually competent to be GAs, but the Church also needs secular skills of leadership, management and experience (sometimes in specialized areas, and here I think of 2 of my fellow nationals, Alexander Morrison, an "Africa man" and N. Eldon Tanner, who is largely credited with saving the Church's finances in the early 60s. Both of them were "fast-tracked" into GA-hood, if I can put it that way). Paul Osborne wrote: > On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that > > sincerely), > > so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are > > unlikely, for one > > reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably > > righteous, > > temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold > > a position > > of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High > > Priests. > > > > I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it > > explicit: I'm > > assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of > > them). But I could > > be wrong -- it's an assumption. > > $$$ High Callings $$$ > > It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and > that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set > yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who > have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are > the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling > to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the > Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the > bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, > I think. ;-) > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] High priests
-Gary- > The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president. In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well, of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high priest. > Yet, his keys are limited. As are the bishop's or stake president's. > He cannot perform most of his responsibilities without the > okay of either the presiding high priest in the ward or the > presiding high priest in the stake. Just as the presiding high priest needs the okay of his superiors to exercise his keys. > He cannot authorize the ordination of elders. He cannot > authorize the calling and setting apart of his counselors. > Those are responsibilities (and keys) laid to the High > Priesthood as those who officially preside. Not so. First, an elder holds the high Priesthood. Second, those keys reside only in the appropriate presiding high priests, not in the office of high priest. > To preside over and hold all the keys of presidency, one has > to be a high priest. No. Currently, one must be an apostle. A stake president cannot call and set apart another stake president. > There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to > an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), but > eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will > have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. You have already made this assertion. I just want to see some evidence of this claim. > I guess you could say that elder does fulfill the minimum > requirements for exaltation, at least in this life. But prior > to us being "kings and priests unto God and his Father" we > will have to obtain the right of presidency, which pertains > to high priests in the high priesthood. Again, I would like more than your assertion that this is the case. > Otherwise, why have the distinction? why not just have elder > and leave it at that? Asking the question is hardly producing evidence. I could just as well ask, Why have deacons and teachers? Why have seventies? Or why not? The answer is the same: Because that is how the Lord chose to restore his Priesthood at this time. > However, once exalted, one will have to have the right of > presidency and to hold those keys, which keys belong to the > high priest's office. Not so. There are two usages of the term "keys" that apply here, and your sentence above doesn't conform to either usage. The first is a key of knowledge, of the right to communicate with God by virtue of the Preisthood, such as D&C 6:28, the keys of translation. The Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys of the ministering of angels; the Melchizedek Priesthood holds "the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God" (D&C 84:19) and "the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church" (D&C 107:18). These keys belong to the Priesthood itself, not to any particular office therein, and all those who hold and honor the Priesthood they hold have access to these keys. The second usage of the term "keys" is the right of presidency. These keys reside in the presiding authority, be he deacon, teacher, bishop, elder, high priest, or apostle. These keys are often associated with an office; however, no office of the Priesthood confers such keys on those ordained to the office. Rather, the keys are explicitly conferred on those called as leaders. You seem to believe that the office of high priest is both eternal (which I see no evidence for) and also the highest office (which is demonstrably false). I have never heard taught by any authorized person the idea that all men must eventually be ordained to the current office of high priest in order to achieve exaltation. I believe this to be a false precept. If you can substantiate it with something other than your say-so, I'd love to come to understand. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
We had a riveting High Council speaker for quite a while (I know, I know, it's an oxymoron, and that's the point -- that's why he was so outstanding). A refugee from Pinochet's Chile, he was a widower and doggone it all, went and married a divorcée in our ward, stealing her into one of the big city wards of our stake and he's no longer our high councillor. "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 08:48 10/22/2002 -0400, Patient noJ wrote: > >Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to > >no avail. I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we > >can only teach it in the HP group meeting. > > They sure were cool dreams, too. Something to do with all the people of > the world. Can't remember for the life of me how it went, though. That's > what they get for scheduling our meetings from 11:00 on. By PH I'm well > into nap-time. Actually, my HT would need to show up first anyway! > > We had our Snake Conference this last weekend. Elder Pace told a story of > Pres Hinckley: He starting to remind them that he's getting old. He never > buys green bananas anymore! He says that one of these days he's going to be > called home. They will have his body there in the tabernacle and thousands > will come to see it. Then the brethren will come to close the > casket. When they do, he's going to sit up, point his finger at them, and > remind them that every investigator needs three things. . > > Till > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High priests
At 12:08 10/22/2002 -0600, M Marc wrote: My spouse is a Vulcan, and she's giving me the death grip. Till was Vulcanized once. To keep his brains from leaking out. Unfortunately, it was too little, too late Till who's too "tired" to go "round and round" on this, so just "wheel" me on out, but don't "brake" my "belt" 'cause my belly "dunlop" over it. Bet you think I heard that one on the "radial", but it just keep "spinning" off of Till's "rotor"-tiller "flat" out. It sure was a "good year". That's what you get for hanging out with people of my low "caliper" Can you stop beating that "drum" while I get my "bearings" I'll just go "ply" myself elswhere, Oh, my head, stop this "biased" "tread" ... Hs s s s s s s s s s s / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that > sincerely), > so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are > unlikely, for one > reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably > righteous, > temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold > a position > of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High > Priests. > > I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it > explicit: I'm > assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of > them). But I could > be wrong -- it's an assumption. $$$ High Callings $$$ It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, I think. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
And you thought when we leaned over in Sacrament meeting and our spouses put their arms on the back of our necks it was meant as a gesture of affection, too, probably. Ah, the naïveté :-) "Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote: > At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: > > >And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing > >about. > > What??? I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep > each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep. > > Till > My spouse is a Vulcan, and she's giving me the death grip. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High priests
At 08:48 10/22/2002 -0400, Patient noJ wrote: Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to no avail. I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we can only teach it in the HP group meeting. They sure were cool dreams, too. Something to do with all the people of the world. Can't remember for the life of me how it went, though. That's what they get for scheduling our meetings from 11:00 on. By PH I'm well into nap-time. Actually, my HT would need to show up first anyway! We had our Snake Conference this last weekend. Elder Pace told a story of Pres Hinckley: He starting to remind them that he's getting old. He never buys green bananas anymore! He says that one of these days he's going to be called home. They will have his body there in the tabernacle and thousands will come to see it. Then the brethren will come to close the casket. When they do, he's going to sit up, point his finger at them, and remind them that every investigator needs three things. . Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to no avail. I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we can only teach it in the HP group meeting. Noj Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: > At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: > > >And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing > >about. > > > > What??? I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep > each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep. > > Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High priests
Till writes: What??? I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep. ___ Oh, Till. It serves a far more important purpose than that. As you shake right hands, place two fingers of the left hand just inside the wrist to check for a pulse. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
At 07:59 10/21/2002 -0500, Gary wrote: And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing about. What??? I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep. Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it explicit: I'm assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of them). But I could be wrong -- it's an assumption. Gary Smith wrote: > Okay, Stephen questioned my assertions. I guess my being a highly high > priest wasn't authoritative for him > > The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president. > Yet, his keys are limited. He cannot perform most of his responsibilities > without the okay of either the presiding high priest in the ward or the > presiding high priest in the stake. He cannot authorize the ordination of > elders. He cannot authorize the calling and setting apart of his > counselors. Those are responsibilities (and keys) laid to the High > Priesthood as those who officially preside. > > To preside over and hold all the keys of presidency, one has to be a high > priest. To be a temple president, one has to be a high priest. To hold > all the keys of presidency in a stake or the Church, one has to be a high > priest. There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to an > elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), but eventually > (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will have to be a high > priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. There are keys that are > not given to an elder in presidency. > > I guess you could say that elder does fulfill the minimum requirements > for exaltation, at least in this life. But prior to us being "kings and > priests unto God and his Father" we will have to obtain the right of > presidency, which pertains to high priests in the high priesthood. > > Otherwise, why have the distinction? why not just have elder and leave it > at that? The requirement in this life is to obtain the MP, regardless of > office. There is nothing wrong with being an elder, because it contains > as much MP as is needed for qualifying for exaltation. However, once > exalted, one will have to have the right of presidency and to hold those > keys, which keys belong to the high priest's office. > > And yes, we have a secret handshake that you elders know nothing > about. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
