Looks like Seattle is an ideal place to set up a US biodiesel
business.
See this from Planet Ark
http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm?newsid=11717
Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
Can you get unrefined oil? Food grade refining is costly and largely
not needed for biodiesel.
In UK it's academic as new oil is too costly for biodiesel. Due to
high taxes our road fuel market is almost all about price. I'm sure
there will be niches where premium prices can be had, but I'd
Hi Steve
I'm sure you've sussed the problems with COSHH or whatever the
regulations are called outside UK, but I raised the point to remind
others.
I was surprised for a merchant to refuse to supply methanol in proper
steel drums without proof that the haulier was appropriately
Pat said...
My biggest challenge thus far has not even been the figuring out my
budget or financial concerns as it has been finding an adequate WVO
oil supply to keep up with my propossed plant size (1000 US Gallons
input per 24 hours period). Of the 50 or so restaurants I've queried
in my
Hi Wooly
In UK, I recently asked a supplier if I could collect methanol they
said only if the collecting driver could show full COSHH
certification (COSHH is Control OF Substances Harzardous to Health).
Don't know if it's same in Oz, but over here you get it delivered and
don't move it again
Thankfully for the time being B20 is the most likely blend for
general use. Further down the road, I think all Euro cars will have
no NOx catalysts. The ultra ultra low sulphur fuels now make them
viable. It's sad though that high tech, high cost systems using rare
noble metals have to be
VW TDIs 90 and 110 can be adjusted and are electonic. Inj pump is
Bosch sorry don't know the model #.
They started making TDIs around 93 or 94 I think initially in Audi
A4s. My 95 Passat has no accelerator cable (diesels don't have a
throttle either) just a potentiometer under the pedal.
Hey, there's the answer :) Use additives instead of cats.
Oh no, solve one problem, create another.
When catalysts were due to come into UK a car magazine took a pair of
new Austin/Rover Metros around a town in UK (Cambridge I think) with
gas analysers attached.
When cold the catalyst was
100% bio with slightly retarded injection timing will also reduce
NOx. The higher cetane value of bio means the combustion chamber
pressure rises faster and more reliably so can deal happily with less
advance.
I think a B20 blend gives no more NOx than 100% fossil, is that
correct?
Dave
Nuff said.
I originally started the acid reaction subject because I had concerns
about the quality of fuel made from FFAs which would affect
commercial operations. However, it developed into a discussion about
recipe methods.
Dave
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Wooly . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Energea's 5T per hour plant is £1.9 million (Sterling) and 7 months
delivery with 30% up front. If it's high FFA feedstock, add in
another 300K for acid pretreatment plant. You then need a site,
storage facilities for the oil chemicals and product. £3M might cover
it.
--- In [EMAIL
Excuse me if it looks like I have denegrated Alecs' process, but I
don't think I have. What I have done is to point out that high FFA
oils are not easy to deal with.
I strongly believe that either the FFA based ester has something
missing compared to alkali reacted ester or something else
Yes definitely what does it cost and where can we get the kit?
It might even be able to close my questions about FFA derived
biodiesel. Can it measure the oxygen content of biodiesel?
Dave
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Want me to contact him for more info?
This is getting tedious, I'm simply reporting what I found.
I followed the acid base recipe and got a low calorific value fuel.
After the acid was neutralised and allowed to settle, I ran the 1.5g
of NaOH as per the recipe. This did not transesterify all of the oil.
I therefore repeated the
Hi Keith,
Alecs does qualify that in his recipe's. He means that the process
reaches an equilbrium before all of the oil is converted. In theory
you can never get to 100% conversion to ester etc. He also hates to
not convert the FFA to ester. While I agree it's wasteful to dump the
FFA, I'm
I believe that you are best to use a recirculating pump for
agitation. It's more efficient and methoxide can be introduced via an
inline venturi in the pump discharge pipe. Pump obviously has to suit
the tank size but a chem engineer could calculate that.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith
I also should apologise on reading my test today it looks a bit
harshly worded.
I'm sure we have the same point of view about commercial quality
control and analytical testing which has to have far more proof of
quality.
By the way can anybody suggest what would be a typical cost to buy
Absolutely, it's one thing to make high quality ester in small tanks
with a single skilled operator. The right person can turn out 51606
grade fuel.
However, scale that up and we need lots of skilled operators and lots
of quality testing or a complex plant that needs less skill/product
Definitely biodiesel has to be sold at below the rate for dinodiesel.
1 the lower calorific value and
2 it's the new kid on the block we have to make it worth their while.
Interestingly one report showed that B20 blends gave a slighty
improved mpg, presumably the bio oxygen improves
Camillo,
That news about poor quality German biodiesel and VW is depressing
indeed. It's exactly what UK doesn't need. We want to be in
production as soon as possible after next April, but if even VW have
doubts we'll have even less chance of finding business investors.
Can we not persuade
Camillo, you seem to be suggesting that every batch should be tested
to PROVE it complies using gas chromatography, etc? Is it not
possible or practical to CONFIRM the a batch complies with more
simple cheap(er) tests rather than prove it complies with expensive
tests.
The high level test
Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth are a problem. They often don't
do their homework properly and like to have something dramatic to say.
UK FOE has trotted out similar rubbish in the UK press, but try
contacting the people responsible - you'll never get a reply.
Many of their members simply
Camillo,
Thankyou for settling this issue. Dioxins are indeed a serious
problem being long lived and only destroyed at very high
temperatures - way above those inside engines.
With high temperatures, NOx emissions become a problem, but at least
they are far less dangerous than dioxins.
Keith you are indeed correct, but if we qualified every statement
we'd never get done
On a medium/large scale of biodiesel production you have to assume
that negative/realistic attitude. It's one thing selling a few litres
to interested committed people like you and me. It's entirely another
Alecs' comment is interesting, but I got less smoke on base/base
ester. I also got considerably more byproduct using less methanol
(15% instead of 20+%). I do not think there was much unreacted oil in
either product.
For the record, I get less mpg than from 100% petroleum ultra low
sulphur
The oil could be wet. Have you made sure it's really dry by boiling
to 120C. Or could it have any detergent in there?
If it's dry, try pre reacting the Crambe oil with sulphuric acid then
doing a normal base/base reaction on the mixture. The acid reaction
is not water tolerant.
Alecs Kak has
Camillo, you make a very vaid point about toxic emissions. imagine
the problems we'd have if biodesel became confused with raw vegetable
oils. You'll no boubt be aware of the press coverage that Volvo got
for their tests on biodiesel emissions.
They used flawed and inappropriate methods, but
I think there is quite some difference between a slow running ship or
railway engine and fast automotive engines. Big engines are built to
handle unrefined and slow burning fuels. Automotive engines need a
fast burning fuel. They can't easily tolerate the glycerols and
emissions from part
I agree that trap grease product should not be sold alongside DIN
standard biodiesel. However, that does not prevent the grease trap
fuel being sold for use in stationary generators or off road plant.
If blended with mineral fuel at 20% any trace toxins in the bio will
be swamped by the
You have to be cheaper to the customer than the alternative. When it
comes to diesel fuel, nobody really cares a fig about it's greeness.
They just want cheap fuel. Even in Germany where it's well
established, biodiesel is about 10% cheaper at the pump than
dinodiesel.
Biodiesel is only
Another thought...
Bearing in mind the nasty stuff which goes down drains, I think wash
the stuff with boiling water, then dry it before esterifying. This
will stink so you'll need a closed tank with an open vent leading
through a condenser.
If it emulsifies, add some citric acid and agitate.
I've been trying to get money out of the landfill trust. They have
hundreds of millions of pounds to spend, but they are not interested
in supporting any business - however green and not even if they pay
back all profits treating it as a loan. If you want to plant
daffodills or re-roof the
Forget about retail and go for bulk sales to haulage companies. If
biodesel is cheaper per mile (including excise tax) they will buy. If
it's not they won't.
Most German biodiesel is made from new vege oil, they have approx a
$0.50(US) excise tax difference which seems to work. UK will have
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Pedro M. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So, we have no problems with quality.
Agreed about dinodiesel standards, but Biodiesel is standardised on
(E)DIN 51606. There are not many labs that can prove compliance to
this standard and most are in Germany.
Biofuels at
Rubbers are definitely affected. Even the (supposedly) chemical
resistant silicone rubber goes hard in biodiesel. However, I believe
that injection pump shaft seals will never be made from rubber - it's
not got the mechanical properties and ages much faster than plastics.
Ancient VW diesel
Hi Camillo,
Injection pump seals are easy enough to replace, usually without
rebuilding the unit, but have you had any nasty complaints from users
where bio has damaged pump seals? It's costly to take vehicles off
the road for repairs. Another problem area can be diaphragm type lift
pumps.
Why not dry a sample and try an normal base reaction. It might not be
as bad as it looks. Watch out for detergents, you may have to
neutralise with acid.
High FFA fats can be acid esterified - see Alecs Kak's recipe on
www.journeytoforever.org. However, I would add that you do need to
Oil is about 850g per litre (similar to ester), but assume the same
as water and you'll not go far wrong. Overloading is asking for
trouble. Most collectors swap poly barrels full for empty.
Dave
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], doctor who [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I believe it was to this list I
Do you have contact details for the Polish equipment supplier and do
you know what their output is per hour?
Dave
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Jan,
Sorry for the late reply. Did not see your question at the bottom
before.
Since we produce biodiesel from different
Used oil ester is always darker than new oil ester. But perhaps this
explains why my acid-base batch gave poor miles per gallon. I used
loads of methanol, but it was a dark colour. Maybe I did not use
enough base catalyst.
Or maybe I over-did the acid stage. Does anybody have any timings for
I'd like to be wrong on this, but as far as I can find out, DIN 51606
testing is not commercially available in UK. I'm sure a university
could sort something out. If you have time and can handle the
beurocracy.
Otherwise I think, test the factors which confirm the fuel's quality,
water,
I've priced up Energea plant. I'm sure it's excellent quality kit,
but with site, storage tanks and vehicles, it's only economic at 5T
per hour running 2 shifts per day. A business plan can be worked
around it, but it's a big eneterprise for a start-up industry.
I'm being told that in UK a
METHANOL: £80 per barrel with recovery you'll use 12.5% per litre of
ester produced. Cheaper by the tonne, but you'll need storage.
OIL: varies from the bare cost of collection to £150/tonne depending
on your source.
CHEMICALS: Fraction of a penny per litre. NaOH is about £1.30 per kg.
You'll
Dick you said:
* u$s 9'100.00 faf buenos aires, plus per diem and travel for
instalation and start-up.
Please excuse my dense head, but I'm confused by the punctuation Do
you mean $9,100 or $910,000. One seems very low the other perhaps a
bit high.
Dave
Biofuels at Journey to Forever
VW have said that they stock conversion kits allowing most post 1995
vehicles to use 100% RME. Before that they won't commit themselves.
Most vehicles are Ok with a 20% blend ebven though manufacturers
warranty are often an issue. For the time being, our market is out of
warranty commercial
I use a 700 watt power drill to mix 180 litres of oil/methanol. It's
not an efficient motor, but suggests you'd need at least 5KW into a
300 gallon tank. 3 phase is more efficient so you might get away with
4Kw.
The milk bulk tank mixers I've seen are really only stirrers.
They'd struggle
If existing collectors don't have to pay landfill costs or clean-up
costs for animal feed they should be able to sell it very cheap. If
they won't, set up your own collection service with agreed contracts
at minimal costs to waste oil producers. But don't do it for nothing.
No cost = no value
So still looking stupid at this end :)...
We are talking about nine thousand, one hundred dollars (US) for an
800 litre processor.
Briefly:
# What does this price include?
# How many batches can it make per day?
# Could the output be increased by pumping the reacted contents
into
Iogen press releases say they've just finished a 100 tonne (per day I
think) pilot plant in Canada. They must be fairly confident.
They say the cellulose enzyme process is econmic compared to the acid
process developed by some US universities. Their planned feedstock is
straw from the wheat
I don't know... Petrol, gasoline and ethanol make no mention of
the engine type they are used in. Also the name diesel suggests we
are connected with the dirty stuff provided by the petrochem
industry.
If we dump the name diesel perhaps we also dump all it's dirty
associations.
The Germans
Hi David
Watch out for (1) environmental protection, (2) workplace safety
officers and (3) insurance issues. In some places town planning will
be in in it too.
If (1) and (2) aren't happy, (3) won't be interested :(
But if you set up a small operation hidden away and be careful to
dispose
I think we need to reconsider the fuel's name. The term biodiesel
means methyl ester (to us), but to almost anybody else it simply
means a fuel with a biological content. We could start calling the
stuff we make methyl ester, but that's not the whole solution
maybe bioester is better as it
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