Re: [EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather

[Michael Ross via EV]

I believe those cells are LiFePO they are are also at risk from being
stored, fully charged, at temps above 95°F. or charged at temps above 95°F.
I too have ruined LiFePO cells this way.

The paper I read was talking about below freezing of water temps as
problematic, but some cells can take below 0°F temps before encountering
difficulty.

I bet all the car companies have worked out the conditions to be avoided
and manage for good cell life. (Nissan Leaf certainly had to learn about
too high temps and upgrade their management.)  The DIYer has to be more
careful and learn more to avoid costly problems.

You can't broad stroke tar all cells and cell chemistries.  There has been
a lot of learning and improvement in the past decade.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:42 PM Hoegberg via EV  wrote:

> EV  för Robert Bruninga via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> den 23 oktober 2018 04:52
> Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Robert Bruninga
> [EVDL] Lithium EV battery in colder weather
>
>
> > I know that Lithium batteries perform worse at lower temps.  But what
> does
> that mean?
> > Charging, or using? which is worse.
>
>
> The "rule of thumb":
> -Avoid any normal/slow charging below zero degrees in cell temp,
>
> (I dont know what that is in the degrees of freedom-scale, lets call it
> "below freezing")
>
> That rule also apply to deeply frozen laptops, cellphones and so on...
>
> (a sloow trickle charge might be without harm if it is not like
> deep-space-winter-cold standard chemistry cell, just a bit below freezing
> or so. But  I do not know, probably "it depends"..)
>
> Li plating seems real! I think I destroyed a Thundersky, at "only" 0.3C
> charging test at -28'C
>
> *
>
> Discharging cold cells seems "ok" , if you do Low C-rates.
> (May be to run the battery heater for several hours?)
>
> The Thundersky 90Ah cells did perform *extremely* poor in my low temp
> Discharge test.
> Like -BAM- down to my cut off at 1.8 volt, with a very weak load..
>
>
>
> /John
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Re: [EVDL] Automaker pitches (Call for nationwide U.S. EV Mandate) woo

[Michael Ross via EV]

The gigafactory doubles global production. That should do it, but they are
building more.

On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 2:58 PM Mark Abramowitz 
wrote:

> I agree on everything except on the characterization of Tesla as
> preeminent battery supplier. What about BYD? Others?
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Oct 27, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > In the grand schema Tesla is just a tiny contributor to the global
> > population of autos. Every thing the established manufacturers do to lag
> > them will benefit them.  I think it is all good for Tesla if they have
> less
> > pressure.
> >
> > Don't forget that Tesla is more or less the preeminent battery supplier.
> > Tesla will eventually benefit a great deal on the battery sales front,
> but
> > they can't keep up with their own demand yet, let alone the auto industry
> > as a whole.
> >
> > All in all, EV manufacturing is still NOT a zero sum game.  It is not
> > engraved in stone that Tesla will survive when the ministry as a whole
> > decides to go all in.  But Tesla is doing far better at scratching out a
> > place for itself than was predictable.  Tesla is very disruptive, but
> still
> > squash-able. I am very grateful for their pushing the tech forward and
> > making EVs interesting.  I hope they don't get squashed before EVs are
> well
> > established.
> >
> >> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 10:54 PM paul dove via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> They want to have lower emission standards on their trucks and SUVs so
> it
> >> will lower the cost and increase profits to supplement their electric
> >> vehicle programs. Same thing as a bailout. What does that do to
> companies
> >> like Tesla.
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >>> On Oct 26, 2018, at 10:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I appreciate the cynicism, but I find no evidence of that.
> >>>
> >>> That article is old, but I suspect that the data still applies. It says
> >> nothing about a government bailout.
> >>>
> >>> So they are losing money on the Bolt. The Prius lost money for 10
> years,
> >> but is Toyota’s most popular car. These folks are in it for the long
> game,
> >> and have been investing in both types of EVs.
> >>>
> >>> - Mark
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Automaker pitches (Call for nationwide U.S. EV Mandate) woo

[Michael Ross via EV]

In the grand schema Tesla is just a tiny contributor to the global
population of autos. Every thing the established manufacturers do to lag
them will benefit them.  I think it is all good for Tesla if they have less
pressure.

Don't forget that Tesla is more or less the preeminent battery supplier.
Tesla will eventually benefit a great deal on the battery sales front, but
they can't keep up with their own demand yet, let alone the auto industry
as a whole.

All in all, EV manufacturing is still NOT a zero sum game.  It is not
engraved in stone that Tesla will survive when the ministry as a whole
decides to go all in.  But Tesla is doing far better at scratching out a
place for itself than was predictable.  Tesla is very disruptive, but still
squash-able. I am very grateful for their pushing the tech forward and
making EVs interesting.  I hope they don't get squashed before EVs are well
established.

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 10:54 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> They want to have lower emission standards on their trucks and SUVs so it
> will lower the cost and increase profits to supplement their electric
> vehicle programs. Same thing as a bailout. What does that do to companies
> like Tesla.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 26, 2018, at 10:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz 
> wrote:
> >
> > I appreciate the cynicism, but I find no evidence of that.
> >
> > That article is old, but I suspect that the data still applies. It says
> nothing about a government bailout.
> >
> > So they are losing money on the Bolt. The Prius lost money for 10 years,
> but is Toyota’s most popular car. These folks are in it for the long game,
> and have been investing in both types of EVs.
> >
> > - Mark
> >
> > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >
> >> On Oct 26, 2018, at 4:04 AM, Paul Dove via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Of course they do because they are losing money on the bolt. Need
> another government bailout.
> >> https://www.inverse.com/article/32239-why-gm-loses-money-chevy-bolt
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >>> On Oct 26, 2018, at 2:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-26/gm-breaks-with-trump-in-call-for-national-electric-car-mandate
> >>> GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate
> >>> October 25, 2018  Automaker pitches U.S. rule to spur more EV sales
> through
> >>> 2030 ... GM says a nationwide program could put 7 million long-range
> >>> electric cars on the road and slash 375 million tons of carbon dioxide
> >>> emissions by 2030, compared with existing zero-emission vehicle
> mandates ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> GM Wants Trump Administration To Back National Electric Vehicle ...
> >>> International Business Times-31 minutes ago
> >>> General Motors Co said on Friday it wants the Trump administration to
> back a
> >>> nationwide program to boost the sale of zero emission vehicles like
> electric
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>> GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate
> >>> Bloomberg-42 minutes ago
> >>> The Trump administration wants to end California's requirement for
> >>> automakers to sell more electric cars in the state each year. America's
> >>> biggest automaker has ...
> >>>
> >>> GM proposes nationwide zero-emissions vehicle sales mandate
> >>> WHSV-1 hour ago
> >>> California sets the requirements based on a complex formula that
> considers
> >>> the total number of vehicles sold by an automaker and gives credits for
> >>> fully electric ...
> >>>
> >>> General Motors CEO: We call for federal electric and zero-emission ...
> >>> USA TODAY-1 hour ago
> >>> It will create jobs through the expansion of battery and electric
> vehicle
> >>> research and development and production, improve the environment and
> make
> >>> electric ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=Breaks+With+Trump+in+Call+for+National+Electric+Car+Mandate
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2 hours ago - The Trump administration wants to end California's
> requirement
> >>> for automakers to sell more electric cars in the state each year.
> America's
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>> GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate ...
> >>> www.wiredfocus.com › electric cars
> >>> 51 mins ago
> >>>
> >>> GM Breaks With Trump in Call for National Electric Car Mandate ...
> >>> www.techheadlines.us › electric cars
> >>> 51 mins ago
> >>>
> >>> [dated]
> >>> Trump's rollback could zap California's electric car industry ...
> >>>
> https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article215984510.html
> >>> Aug 2, 2018
> >>>
> >>> Trump is going after California's clean car mandate | TechCrunch
> >>>
> https://techcrunch.com/2018/07/.../trump-is-going-after-californias-clean-car-mandate.
> ..
> >>> Jul 23, 2018
> >>>
> >>> California wants more electric cars. The Trump administration doesn't
> ...
> >>>
> www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-fuel-standards-fight-20180202-story.html
> >>> Feb 2, 2018
> >>>
> >>> Electric Vehicles: Government 

Re: [EVDL] AM radios dropped from plugins (RFI, EMI, +)> (go digital)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Fast switching power doesn't need a ground or a common return to generate
loud EMI and foul AM.  In my old testing lab I had used an old transistor
radio to locate noise that was fouling a turbine flowmeter output. The
problem lies with rapid rising and falling voltage - something that is
desired with some electronic switches that are inefficient during those
transitions. That inefficiency comes out as heat that accumulates in in
motors and degrades performance. We were using stepper motors that that had
voltage rise like 20 V/nanosecond.  They weren't large motors, but very
loud in the EM noise department. It was a trick to solve.

transistor radios are a forgotten tech.  They aren't to bad in a car, but
in the home a drill or mixer can cause a lot of disturbance.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 1:43 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> There is no "ground" in a vehicle, only "chassis". (Unless the vehicle
> is on charge and connected to the grid.) The drivetrain and the AM radio
> share the chassis "ground", which is likely the root of the problem.
>
> The EMI comes from the controller PWM switching, goes into the chassis,
> (and is radiated in general by the drive components,) and is received by
> the AM radio.
>
> The AM radio can be filtered, but that adds cost, is difficult, reduces
> the sensitivity, and likely the sound fidelity of the AM radio. The
> drive train can be designed to reduce the EMI in the specific frequency
> region of AM, which adds significant cost, and is _/very/_ difficult.
> You can locate the sensitive components of the AM radio away from the
> drive train, which is a bit difficult and adds cost.
>
>  Is the cost worth the improvement of the AM radio reception?   Most
> folks don't care, and the added cost of clear sensitive AM reception is
> not worth anything to them. Teslas answer is to "use streaming" instead
> of the AM radio is probably the most sensible for most people.
>
>  This problem is similar to acoustic noise in airplanes. It is quite
> costly to reduce the cabin noise in airplanes, and it adds weight, which
> reduces efficiency and reduces performance. In small airplanes,
> helicopters, and military airplanes, everyone wears headphones (or ear
> plugs). In commercial airplanes, the airplane itself is designed to
> reduce the cabin noise. However, it is very expensive to solve noise the
> problem at the source end. Much cheaper and lighter to solve the problem
> at the relieving end.
>
>  Do you _need_ an AM radio in your car? Probably not. You don't get
> to your destination any quicker.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
>
>
> On 11/10/2018 1:03 PM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > Hmm, maybe cost savings of putting a grounded shield around the motor
> > and controller. For the AM radio, what could the cost be? $1.00?
> >
> > Peri
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] ?Is this an EV or Watt?: ?Is it a Volt, Bolt, Prius?> crashed in Canby-OR

[Michael Ross via EV]

Many of you have probably seen this, but it is pertinent:
Power line inspection 

There is also an interplay between injury or death and voltage and current

Lot's of unsubstantiated/spouse tales house like current is and other grid
secondaries are more unsafe than higher voltage distribution
wiring...Because higher voltage traves on the skin, and 120, 240, 480
traves through one's core stopping the heart. You can get realls bad burns
from higher voltage, THat much is certain.

What exactly is higher and lower in this context? What amperage is too
much? Coil discharge from a car coil is certainly notable (20KV+), but not
much current and very short duration.

Where on the continuum do the bits of an EV fit in?

On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 1:10 AM JoeS. via EV  wrote:

> /Chris wrote: I'm an electrical dolt, but I thought there is no danger in
> handling an EV
> in water because there is no potential relative to ground.  Even if
> isolation has been compromised and the body is hot, it would be hard to get
> two parts of the body at different potentials./
> For that very reason I've always been mystified how someone swimming in a
> pool not touching anything could be electrocuted...
>
>
> -
> Joe Siudzinski
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] 18650 cell level fuse wire

[Michael Ross via EV]

You have two options, make the wire you have thinner, or select an alloy
the melts at a lower temperature.

Actually there is a possible third option - put some insulating material
around it fo keep convective cooling from slowing down the blow. You would
want a clear material or you would not be able to see blown links.

These are the basics that any fuse designer would be concerned with and
have as options.  Those folks have to worry about other stuff like creepage
(the distance along solid surfaces from link end to link end)  and
clearance (length of air gap between link ends) of faults, and arc
suppression, etc. You might want to consider them as well. with a lot of DC
voltage and current you can definitely have a fault arc.

Tesla battery packs I have seen images of used bare wires in air.  Maybe
you can find out what alloy they use.

On Sun, Jan 20, 2019 at 3:52 PM ken via EV  wrote:

>  I cells are 2600 mah average reclamed / tested .  lion  . what or which
> size wire should I use.  I tryed a 10 ths 3 inch wire shorted across the
> cell and it turned red 5 seconds but did not blow. I'd call my load low
> as I'm working runing a ryboi blower  with  my 5s x 5p pack . I've not
> measured the laod for the blower yet .
>
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Re: [EVDL] 18650 cell level fuse wire

[Michael Ross via EV]

The open air fuses of Tesla packs eliminate the sort of creepage failure
that Justin has recounted.where aerosol deposits from the vaporizing of the
fuse leave traces for further arcing and leakage.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 10:05 PM Justin Kenny via EV 
wrote:

> I'm the owner of the Leaf Rex channel Cor mentioned earlier. I highly
> caution against using PCB fuses in general, I've done testing on those
> also: https://youtu.be/CMlpCX0bug8 If you have a relatively large open
> circuit voltage in the system you are trying to protect, it will
> create a conductive plasma and char the PCB, leaving behind a
> "resistor" which can continue to burn, though hopefully
> self-extinguish in keeping with the "flame retardant" part of FR-4.
>
> - Justin
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 1:09 PM  wrote:
> > Message: 13
> > Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 15:25:38 -0500
> > From: Martin Klingensmith 
> > To: Lee Hart via EV 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] 18650 cell level fuse wire
> > Message-ID: <623a4924-a24a-52f3-b720-2ee3c2f69...@nnytech.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >
> >
> > IIRC I've seen "fusible links" on PCBs. They're a short section of
> > copper trace that is much narrower than the rest of the trace. My
> > understanding is that they're used for an extra level of protection or
> > where the designer thinks they're really clever. For all modern PCB
> > materials it's not *too* unsafe because they aren't (supposed to be)
> > flammable.
> >
> > -
> >
> > Martin K
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla e-pump patent enhances drive units

[Michael Ross via EV]

There is a second article on the Teslarati webpage talking about the
Chinese Gigafactory 3 that is being fast tracked. Very interesting.

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:50 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-model-x-model-3-electric-pump-system-temperature-sensors-drive-unit-upgrade/
>
> BIG SNIP

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Re: [EVDL] Efficiency Compared: Battery-Electric 73%, Hydrogen 22%, ICE 13%

[Michael Ross via EV]

On the grid for saving renewable sourced energy, hydrogen might make sense
even with the low efficiency. Because there is a real potential for cheap
large scale storage. But to release the energy in a mobile application with
by combustion or by fuel cell is probably not a great idea.  On a utility
scale, after pump storage and other methods are overtaxed, it might be very
useful. I am assuming some very environmentally benign battery methods
don't arise.  You can make a great large tank and fill it, or you can make
gabillions of battery cells to store wind, geo, solar excesses, until peak
times. I don't think it makes sense for personal, mobile use.


On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 5:27 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

>
> https://insideevs.com/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-73-hydrogen-22-ice-13/
>
>  With the numbers in the subject line. Why would anyone pick fool cells.
> With less MSRP you can get a long range Tesla III vs. the fool cell
> alternative.  You have few fuel stations compared to the world wide Tesla
> Supercharger system.  WHY? Is range anxiety that much of an issue?  Fool
> cells are a distraction from the prize.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] NMC chemistry working voltage

[Michael Ross via EV]

Also  the warnings are for lead acid not Li ion.

On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 3:36 PM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> That eBay pack  - there in the title it says 90vdc, then in the spec it
> says 45vdc. That would worry me is that the seller may not be up to speed.
> Also, the provenance is very important. Charge level and temperature
> history are of paramount importance.  I think the price is nice - if they
> are healthy.
>
> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 3:25 PM ken via EV  wrote:
>
>>  I may be getting a battery pack of
>>
>>
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Johnson-Controls-24-Cells-Solar-Battery-90-vdc-2-5-k/123187038180?hash=item1cae8507e4:g:TV4AAOSwjatbITYi:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!97355!US!-1:rk:4:pf:0
>>
>> with cell of
>>
>>
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Johnson-Controls-Battery-Single-Cells/123519603290?hash=item1cc257925a:g:YF0AAOSwxZxcAW6P:rk:8:pf:0
>>
>>
>> is there some where to find a charts of this pictual chemistry ?
>>
>> and is the sellers info correct ?
>>
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Re: [EVDL] NMC chemistry working voltage

[Michael Ross via EV]

That eBay pack  - there in the title it says 90vdc, then in the spec it
says 45vdc. That would worry me is that the seller may not be up to speed.
Also, the provenance is very important. Charge level and temperature
history are of paramount importance.  I think the price is nice - if they
are healthy.

On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 3:25 PM ken via EV  wrote:

>  I may be getting a battery pack of
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Johnson-Controls-24-Cells-Solar-Battery-90-vdc-2-5-k/123187038180?hash=item1cae8507e4:g:TV4AAOSwjatbITYi:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!97355!US!-1:rk:4:pf:0
>
> with cell of
>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Johnson-Controls-Battery-Single-Cells/123519603290?hash=item1cc257925a:g:YF0AAOSwxZxcAW6P:rk:8:pf:0
>
>
> is there some where to find a charts of this pictual chemistry ?
>
> and is the sellers info correct ?
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too heavy a car.

[Michael Ross via EV]

Lawrence,

I don't think you need to tar Musk like that.  He is simply practical -
thinking that cars that appeal to the vast majority of drivers and
passengers will be loaded with services and comfort, they will be very well
appointed, compared to things like a Stella, will thus be heavy, will be
very good protection in case of an accident. That sort of car simply cannot
be powered with the mere upward pointing area it will have.

Stella and such are cool projects, but I don't want to give up a cushy
seat, conditioned surroundings, a great stereo, lots of cargo capacity,
won't flip over in a high crosswind, parks in a small space and is easily
maneuvered, doesn't have to be located in the sun for any length of time,
and not having to think about maintaining it in any particular way other
than plugging it in.

I get it you don't like this situation, but it isn't going to change.
However, Musk has done great work creating the advent of a much cleaner
form of transportation- probably with global positive effects.  If the fuel
supply can be cleaned up and mass transit imported and electrified we will
be far better off than had he done nothing.

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 12:37 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> I can only say that my attempts of education here have failed.  I will try
> again.  Elon is a devious and secretive person.  That is fine, he is in
> business and needs to protect himself. He is right, his wonderful but piggy
> cars are energy hogs.  At 5000 pounds he would have to tow a fairly large
> array to make the numbers work.  However he has something up his sleeve.
> Every time I talk to my friends at Tesla about solar vehicles they shut up
> like clams. Tesla is well aware of the Cruiser Class(class rules mandate
> multiple passengers and a trunk.  That is a practical car) at the World
> Solar Challenge.  Tesla sponsors that class. Many higher ups at Tesla are
> solar team alums. They know what it takes and it isn't the current crop of
> Tesla design. Neither is it a rolling ping pong table.  Here is what works.
> A four wheel vehicle with: a weight of 850 pounds, CD of .016, a 15kw
> battery, 1.5kw solar array & seating for 4.  This design in the 2015 World
> Solar Challenge set a record over two days on one full charge of 931 miles.
> This design was so successful that the rules were changed in 2017 reducing
> the size of the solar array.  I hope now with this information everyone
> will realize that solar vehicles are indeed possible technically.  Can they
> be manufactured successfully?  I don't know.  However they exist. Three
> generations have been built by the students of Eindhoven University in the
> Nederland's and have won all three challenges in the Cruiser class started
> in 2013.  The Challenge is bi-annual. These vehicles can go 400 miles just
> on the battery.  With solar they are capable of 45mph just on the array.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_(solar_vehicles)https://www.google.com/search?q=three+generations+of+stella+solar+vehicles=lnms=isch=X=0ahUKEwixuczNoZPfAhXhgVQKHRQ3BBQQ_AUIDygC=1579=891So
> please don't be so happy to think solar vehicles are not possible.  Just
> not the way you want them to be.  These vehicles meet Dutch crash standards
> but they do use racing harnesses and have no air bags.  The 2017 Stella Vie
> is a 5 passenger vehicle.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too hea

[Michael Ross via EV]

Well, I see it is a solar racing car with room for a family.  It is not a
racing car. It is large, it is expensive at least as a prototype ("costs
like a house" the DUtch guy saya.)  It goes 500 mile on a charge  - on a
sunny day.  You can get regullar cummting out of it in Holland where it is
rainy a lot.  But that is not even close to 500 miles.

I still like it a lot, but its not ready for prime time. It is a nice
demonstration.

I have a small car by choice, and used to commute on an Organic Transit
ELF. It would reduce my 25 mile commute to 1 hour and get me a lit of nice
exercise. Its less than one meter square of panel was useless except as a
marketing ploy. I like small vehicles so a solar car is out of my solution
set.  I would not want a car with that much acreage attached to it. I would
rather have panels at home and batteries inside the car.

On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 5:25 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> You still don't get it.  This car is built like a race car and is a race
> car.  It is also touted as a family car.  The design is monocoque
> construction like formula 1.  Those cars survive 200 mph crashes.  A 5
> point belt is part of the safety features. Lawrence Rhodes
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>
>   On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 10:06 AM, paul dove
> wrote:   Who would feel safe in an 827 lb car?
>
>
> On Sunday, December 9, 2018, 11:37:15 AM CST, Lawrence Rhodes via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>  I can only say that my attempts of education here have failed.  I will
> try again.  Elon is a devious and secretive person.  That is fine, he is in
> business and needs to protect himself. He is right, his wonderful but piggy
> cars are energy hogs.  At 5000 pounds he would have to tow a fairly large
> array to make the numbers work.  However he has something up his sleeve.
> Every time I talk to my friends at Tesla about solar vehicles they shut up
> like clams. Tesla is well aware of the Cruiser Class(class rules mandate
> multiple passengers and a trunk.  That is a practical car) at the World
> Solar Challenge.  Tesla sponsors that class. Many higher ups at Tesla are
> solar team alums. They know what it takes and it isn't the current crop of
> Tesla design. Neither is it a rolling ping pong table.  Here is what works.
> A four wheel vehicle with: a weight of 850 pounds, CD of .016, a 15kw
> battery, 1.5kw solar array & seating for 4.  This design in the 2015 World
> Solar Challenge set a record over two days on one full charge of 931 miles.
> This design was so successful that the rules were changed in 2017 reducing
> the size of the solar array.  I hope now with this information everyone
> will realize that solar vehicles are indeed possible technically.  Can they
> be manufactured successfully?  I don't know.  However they exist. Three
> generations have been built by the students of Eindhoven University in the
> Nederland's and have won all three challenges in the Cruiser class started
> in 2013.  The Challenge is bi-annual. These vehicles can go 400 miles just
> on the battery.  With solar they are capable of 45mph just on the array.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_(solar_vehicles)https://www.google.com/search?q=three+generations+of+stella+solar+vehicles=lnms=isch=X=0ahUKEwixuczNoZPfAhXhgVQKHRQ3BBQQ_AUIDygC=1579=891So
> please don't be so happy to think solar vehicles are not possible.  Just
> not the way you want them to be.  These vehicles meet Dutch crash standards
> but they do use racing harnesses and have no air bags.  The 2017 Stella Vie
> is a 5 passenger vehicle.  Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Gigafactory's inside look> cranks-out 2packs/min /24hr (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

A short little uneducated look inside the Gigafactory by CNBC, but worth a
peek.  They were given a current cost for Gigfactory cells of $116/KWH, and
estimating $100/KWH.  That is awesome.

I see now why we are starting to see electric aircraft. I heard Musk say
they could do transcontinental supersonic flight if cells got down to
$400/KWH. I guess he is distracted by wanting to use the BFR for that now.
That is hypersonic.

On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 9:05 PM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/13/a-look-inside-teslas-gigafactory-the-key-to-the-automakers-success.html
> A look inside Tesla's Gigafactory: The key to the automakers' success
> 2018-11-13  Phil LeBeau  Meghan Reeder
>
> [images
>
> https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2018/11/13/105570709-1542111960858img_2165.jpg
> Workers at the Tesla Gigafactory
>
>
> https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2018/11/13/105570710-1542111960858img_2167.jpg
>
>
> https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2018/11/13/105570708-1542111960857img_2162.jpg
>
>
> video  flash
> An inside look at Tesla's Gigafactory
> Monday, 12 Nov 2018 | 6:00 PM CT | 03:30
> CNBC's Phil LeBeau reports from Tesla’s growing Gigafactory on the
> company's
> battery production and what makes the battery advantageous over other
> companies.
> ]
>
>   - Tesla's Gigafactory in Sparks, Nevada, is big enough to hold 33
> football
> fields — and it's only getting larger.
>   - Its expansion has been critical to Tesla's growth.
>   - This year, the automaker is on track to sell 236,000 vehicles.
>
> Walk into Tesla's Gigafactory in Sparks, Nevada, and the first thing that
> stands out is the size of the battery plant. It's enormous. So big that you
> could fit 33 football fields — and it's only getting larger.
>
> "The Gigafactory is critical to Tesla. There is more batteries produced
> here
> for electric vehicles than in the rest of the planet combined. We would not
> be able to make all the vehicles we are making now if we didn't have the
> Gigafactory," said Jerome Guillen, president of Tesla Automotive.
>
> The Gigafactory's expansion since opening in July 2016 has been critical to
> Tesla's growth. This year, the automaker is on track to sell 236,000
> vehicles. Much of that growth is due to its latest vehicle, the Model 3, a
> sedan targeted to a broader audience than Tesla's previous cars. All of the
> Model 3's batteries are built at the Gigafactory.
>
> Last quarter, as Tesla hit its target of producing more than 5,000 Model 3
> cars per week, the company posted a profit. CEO Elon Musk says his company
> has turned the corner after years of mounting losses.
>
> "We expect to again have positive net income and cash flow in Q4 and I
> believe, our aspiration certainly will be for all quarters going forward,"
> Musk told analysts during the company's earnings conference call.
>
> Analysts are not so sure. "Part of the real reason they beat in Q3 is
> because the mix was so strong," said Colin Langan, an auto analyst for UBS
> who has a sell rating on Tesla. Langan calculates the average Tesla sold
> for
> more than $60,000 last quarter, well above the price point Tesla initially
> promised potential buyers.
>
> "I think long-term the price will probably settle in the mid-forties, where
> comparable luxury vehicles sell today, and that is going to put a lot of
> margin pressure on over time," he said.
>
> Easing that pressure and keeping Tesla profitable will come down to a few
> key factors, most notably, growing sales and lowering the cost to build
> battery packs. In both cases, the Gigafactory will determine if Tesla
> succeeds.
>
> Running around the clock, the Gigafactory cranks out approximately two
> battery packs every minute. Its production is currently estimated to be
> 5,000 a week, with room to grow, according to Sam Jaffe, managing director
> with Cairn Energy Research Advisors in Boulder, Colorado.
>
> Jaffe studies the electric vehicle market, specifically focusing on the
> costs to build the battery packs and cells that provide the energy inside
> those packs. Jaffe's analysis pegs Tesla's cost to manufacture a battery
> cell at $116 per kilowatt-hour, which he says is "far ahead of the
> industry." He estimates other automakers building electric vehicles have
> battery cell costs closer to $146 per kilowatt-hour.
>
> "Tesla has shown an ability and a drive to reduce both cell costs and
> battery pack costs," he said. "They have been planning for this moment,
> with
> this tremendous cost advantage, for a long time, and in general they have
> executed well on it."
>
> That's not to say, there haven't been growing pains at the Gigafactory.
> From
> having to backtrack on overly ambitious plans to use robotics and
> automation
> to allegations the plant is being wasteful, Tesla's battery plant has faced
> plenty of scrutiny.
>
> Guillen said he believes the Gigafactory is 

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: aevrobotics.com lsEV.au 4auton rideshare, deliveries, waste& medical services

[Michael Ross via EV]

Pretty neat. I like it. A new urban paradigm. Top speed of 40kph solves a
number of problems, but causes limitations with distance.  I wonder if it
is just a lack of open thinking that it can't be useful outside of dense
urbanity.  I wonder how much it costs.

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 7:25 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/local-firm-aev-robotics-plugs-into-demand-for-electric-car-modules/news-story/1aba8d9f68e0e78524d82792529ae008
> Local firm AEV Robotics plugs into demand for electric car modules
> January 7, 2019  Chris Griffith attending [ ces.tech ] 2019 in Las Vegas
> [NV.us] courtesy of [ hisense.com.au ]
>
> [image
> https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/64039f3d8244ca36fe323805199e0c43
> A lightweight modular electric vehicle developed by Australian company AEV
> Robotics
> ]
>
> An Australian firm plans to start assembling lightweight, modular electric
> cars locally by 2021.
>
> AEV Robotics said the vehicles consist of a common robotic base that
> supports a purpose-built module that sits on top. One version of the car
> could operate ride-sharing with driverless operation while others could be
> geared to deliver goods, waste management and medical services.
>
> The local start-up said it had been working in secret for more than three
> years on developing the modular system, which it plans to market globally.
>
> Chief executive Julian Broadbent said the vehicles were ­designed to be
> slow-moving in built-up urban areas.
>
> “Instead of adding technology to upgrade traditional cars, we’ve started
> from a clean sheet and built a completely new type of ­vehicle,” he said.
>
> “Def­initely 2021 is our target.
>
> “We thought it was a really ­interesting opportunity to reconsider how
> vehicles evolved over the last 100 years and what they would look like if
> you took a clean sheet.”
>
> Mr Broadbent said the vehicles would be made at a factory in Croydon in
> Melbourne’s east “certainly for the first period when the volumes are low
> enough and the margin can be supported”, but inevitably, with current
> labour
> costs, larger production would take place in Asia.
>
> The project is a return to familiar territory for Mr Broadbent as he was a
> director of ­advanced global planning at General Motors in Detroit. He was
> also director for an innovation organisation.
>
> There were reports a few years ago of a Commodore being converted into an
> “electric supercar” but it never got off the ground.
>
> Mr Broadbent said the company was ­financed with founder equity, an angel
> round and ­several seed rounds.
>
> “I would say that it’s quite a number of millions of dollars that have gone
> into this. And it isn’t just investment. We’ve actually been selling our
> technology to ­industry partners and strategic partners and things like
> that. Through those partnerships were generated sales.”
>
> The partnerships involved various types of “functional pods” that sit on
> the
> robotic base and meet the needs of different organisations. The company
> offers ­developer access to different types of businesses that may want to
> build vans, sedan cars or other types of vehicles on the common base. He
> said partners would ­design their modules and AEV Robotics would produce
> them.
>
> Mr Broadbent said the vehicles were designed for “low-speed” operation, a
> form of ­vehicle allowed to operate under special legislation. “We are
> seeing the speed limit of cities around the world dropped to what is now an
> industry standard, 40km/h, for example.”
>
> He said the US would probably be the vehicles’ first market as it had had
> the legal framework in place for a decade. “They have ready-made
> legislation
> for these vehicles in terms of their size and have a model operating a load
> speed environment.” ...
>
> The Lowdown
> Maximum speed: 40km/h
> Weight: less than 1000kg
> Power: Electric, plus solar panels
> Base: Contains electrics, motor, batteries and computer
> Body: Attachable pods for different roles — ridesharing, parcel delivery,
> food delivery, waste management
> [© theaustralian.com.au]
>
>
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-spied-PV-AEV-lurking-MelbourneU-w-hot-swappable-body-tp4692183.html
> EVLN: (spied)> PV-AEV lurking @MelbourneU w/ hot-swappable body
> Dec 15, 2018  AEV Robotics
> ...
>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/template/NamlServlet.jtp?macro=search_page=413529=aev+Robotics=date
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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(919) 

Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Michael Ross via EV]

Hi Lee,

You were kind enough to talk with me bit a while back, and you were right
on. We wanted to build a testing lab using the Novonix equipment, but it
was clear the general population of Li ion users who might benefit from
actually knowing: neighborhood vehicles, scooters, eBikes and so on,
prefered to be ignorant of the actual quality and durability of the cells
they were buying. Likewise they had little understandind how their
controllers and charging systems worked, and how to do some QC on that
incoming material.

If you are a Medtronix, or a Tesla, where you have a big money need to get
it right then this testing looks like how you stay ahead of competition.
They can afford the $1M ticket to have inhouse testing, or make deals just
as those two mentioned did with Dalhousie.

And so 4 years down the line, still, few people understand how the cells
work, how they are manufactured well, what real quality looks like, what
the real life in an application might be.

Anyway, funding a lab and having it actually pay salaries looked near
impossible.

Mike


On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:41 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > Yeah, I wouldn't say prove either. But testing can be far better than the
> > old tried, and not very good cycling tests.
>
> It all depends on who is doing the testing, and why.
>
> If it's being done by marketing to promote sales, they're likely to pick
> a test procedure that gives the best results possible. Often, they won't
> specify the test procedure used, or leave out crucial information.
>
> If it's done by a customer, to evaluate how long it's likely to last in
> their product, they are more likely to strive for meaningful test results.
>
> If it's done by an independent researcher, look at who's paying for the
> testing.
> --
> Imagination is your preview of life's coming attractions.
> (Albert Einstein)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs

[Michael Ross via EV]

y of those tests, and their
practicality.  We end up falling prey to our confirmation biases and
shrugging off the uncertainty of it all because the whole boneheaded
tradition is confusing at best.

Learn what the best people have learned, and stop thinking the old ways.

On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 5:59 AM George Tyler via EV 
wrote:

> From my experience, we had an in-house test company that ran independently,
> we wanted to know the truth, results are not released to the public but
> used
> to improve reliability. The name of the company is at stake. When I see
> something like a cell phone company that has battery fires I know it's
> either a mickey mouse company, or someone did not do their job properly!
> There is nothing to be gained by "fudging" results
> component failure should follow a "bath tub" shape, on a graph of
> failure rate on the vertical axis and time on the horizontal. The shape can
> tell a lot about product quality, you are testing many samples, and they
> should lie on the same curve. Bad production methods or bad component
> quality can be indicated by a spread in different ways. We also tested
> components like the SCR's used in the same manner, we ran 70A SCR's at over
> 1000 amps, tested many samples for months like that, also tested spade
> terminals used in the products.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
> Sent: 13 September, 2018 4:46 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Lee Hart
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Large Format Cells vs. Small Format Cells for EVs
>
> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > Yeah, I wouldn't say prove either. But testing can be far better than the
> > old tried, and not very good cycling tests.
>
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] EV familiarity

[Michael Ross via EV]

The issue of wire size is ALWAYS dependent on what sort of current MAY
occur even in a fault condition. The wire must be increased in cross
section if there are heat retaining conditions such as conduit, insulation,
limited possibility of convective cooling.

So you don't size the wire based on an assumption of a balanced load, you
figure out what faults may occur and what breakers control the circuitry.
If you are uncertain you up the wire size, you do not cost reduce the
system and down size wiring on a guess. ..

I am not going to comment about a system I cannot see, anymore than a
competent doctor would diagnose a patient without seeing them.

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 3:25 AM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 17 Feb 2019 at 18:02, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > Is this legal under the NEC?
>
> On a 20 amp breaker, definitely.  On a 30 amp breaker, probably not.
>
> I don't have a copy of the NEC handy, and I'm not a code expert, but IIRC
> the code has (or had) a provision for using a size smaller neutral to feed
> a
> 120/240v balanced load (nearly equal current on both legs of the line).
> But
> since you can't warrant that both 120v receptacles will be in use at the
> same time, that exception (if it still exists) probably wouldn't apply to
> your case.
>
> Pro electricians who follow the code daily may have more or better
> information for you.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Alibaba/Aliexpress Lithium

[Michael Ross via EV]

Dan Baker,

There is nothing wrong with taking a Li ion cell down to 0%SOC (which is
not a great idea with PbSO4). The problem is when you have a multitude of
them there is some variation between them. Over time, they get misaligned
in terms of capacity. There are cell balancing routines to help even them
out. You want them aligned at the low end of SOC so that they all come down
to the same level near but not at 0%SOC. If you don't and one goes to 0% an
you keep discharging the pack that low cell can reverse and short out.

That short circuit can cause damage. You don't want to risk heat and its
bad effects, nor do you want to hurt other costly cells in the pack. Smart
pack manufacturers like Tesla have a fusible link in series with every
cell, even if there are 7000 of them, then if a cell shorts it just blows
its fuse and is no longer in the pack functionally.

So you only get the top 50% soc WITH PbSO4, but with Li ion you get the top
80%, or 90% of capacity, whatever you can successfully manage.

Cell management is a very important piece of the puzzle for anyone using
batteries for a vehicle whether DIY or OEM, lead or lithium.

You said:
"100 a/h battery is typically only 80 a/h?"

No cell manufacturer is being disingenuous telling you the full capacity of
the cells.  It is up to the application and the designer to determine how,
and how much of that capacity can be used.


On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 8:20 PM Dan Baker via EV  wrote:

> Wow, lots of learning here.  So with Lithium, a safe BMS cut-off typically
> kicks around when there is less than 20% remaining? So the a/h ratings
> typically (and when truthfully) displayed are actually 20% less?  100 a/h
> battery is typically only 80 a/h?  This is fine as I know you can't get
> 100% of out lead either.  I looked up my SBS-170f lead's datasheet, to take
> the cells to 1.80VPc (half discharged I believe) will happen with 116 amps
> for 1 hour.  This is recommended bottom voltage and I typically see that
> with my boat as the draw is pretty constant when cruising.  To take the
> leads all the way to near complete discharge (damaging but not exploding) -
> 1.60 Vpc the amps for one hour is 125 amps so not much more.  So with a 200
> ah pack I can expect about 1.6 hours of run time at 100 amps?   In reality
> I think I can probably get closer to 2 hours if I keep the speed the same
> and reduce the amps as the weight loss will dramatically reduce water
> drag.
>
> On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 6:08 PM Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > No Paul, Lee is indeed referring to the rate of discharge chart,
> > however, he has chosen the cut-off to be _*3 volts*_, rather than the
> > customary cut-off of_*2.5 volts*_. (No one uses a cut-off of 3 volts,
> > that I am aware of. All the charts note that 2.5v cut-off is the
> > standard for comparison. If we picked 3.5 volts as the cut-off, we would
> > get a huge spread in the apparent capacity, but that would be silly.)
> >
> > You are correct that the 12 minute discharge (0.2C rate), the 0.5C rate,
> > and the 1C rate all show the same capacity, 3.25 mA-hr. While the 2 hour
> > discharge (2C rate) shows a slightly elevated capacity of  3.350 mA.
> >
> >  I suspect that the faster rates had some unavoidable internal
> > heating, (even though the case temperature was held at a constant 25
> > degrees Celsius,) which tends to decrease the internal resistance, and
> > tends to raise the terminal voltage under load, especially when the
> > impedance rises near the end. Thus, the apparent capacity shift is quite
> > likely due to increased internal temperature rather than ion diffusion.
> >
> >  Lead acid curves would have shown a much greater sensitivity to the
> > discharge rate. Much greater. As I said earlier, the ions can diffuse
> > perhaps 100 times more quickly in Li-Ion cells than in lead-acid cells,
> > which makes the Puekert exponent very close to unity in Li_ion. Puekert
> > is not really useful in Li_ion because the diffusion is so fast in
> Li-Ion.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> >
> > On 3/17/2019 12:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
> > > That’s not what the spec sheet says. You are reading the graph for
> > temperature variations. There is almost no difference due to discharge
> > rates. 2C is 3250 and 0.5C is 3350 according to your spec sheet.
> > >
> > > And lead acid batteries have a Puekert coefficient as low as 1.08.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > >> On Mar 15, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Steve Heath via EV 
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Peukert's law is not an actual law but an empirical formula that is
> > based on actual physical measurements. It gives an approximate estimate
> of
> > how much capacity can be obtained. The way that it is used is that the
> > capacity is measured at different discharge rates to give a co-efficient
> > that can then be applied to other batteries.  This is where the
> difficulty
> > lies. The coefficient is taken by measurement and providing another
> battery
> > is the same then 

Re: [EVDL] Alibaba/Aliexpress Lithium

[Michael Ross via EV]

Steve, the ratings are per cell. WHat else is there to do?  No management
is needed as with a pack. Measuring the capacity of a cell is pretty
straightforward. It is up to the user to determine the needed capacity of a
pack and how to take care of it.

On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 6:31 PM Steve Heath via EV 
wrote:

> There are lies, damn lies and battery AH data.
>
> Yes you are right in that even with a "100aH Liion battery" I would
> derate it by 80% or so because of the BMS and so on.
> The problem with many Ah figures is that you do not know how they were
> measured. Is this with or without the BMS?
>
> Most companies take the aH from each cell in the series string and add
> them up. Some pluck a figure out of the air!
>
> 80% of the manufacturer figure is a good place to start but that might
> be a tad high in my experience with those size of currents.
>
> Steve
>
>
> On 16/03/2019 21:51, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> > Wow, lots of learning here.  So with Lithium, a safe BMS cut-off
> typically
> > kicks around when there is less than 20% remaining? So the a/h ratings
> > typically (and when truthfully) displayed are actually 20% less?  100 a/h
> > battery is typically only 80 a/h?  This is fine as I know you can't get
> > 100% of out lead either.  I looked up my SBS-170f lead's datasheet, to
> take
> > the cells to 1.80VPc (half discharged I believe) will happen with 116
> amps
> > for 1 hour.  This is recommended bottom voltage and I typically see that
> > with my boat as the draw is pretty constant when cruising.  To take the
> > leads all the way to near complete discharge (damaging but not
> exploding) -
> > 1.60 Vpc the amps for one hour is 125 amps so not much more.  So with a
> 200
> > ah pack I can expect about 1.6 hours of run time at 100 amps?   In
> reality
> > I think I can probably get closer to 2 hours if I keep the speed the same
> > and reduce the amps as the weight loss will dramatically reduce water
> > drag.
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 6:08 PM Bill Dube via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >> No Paul, Lee is indeed referring to the rate of discharge chart,
> >> however, he has chosen the cut-off to be _*3 volts*_, rather than the
> >> customary cut-off of_*2.5 volts*_. (No one uses a cut-off of 3 volts,
> >> that I am aware of. All the charts note that 2.5v cut-off is the
> >> standard for comparison. If we picked 3.5 volts as the cut-off, we would
> >> get a huge spread in the apparent capacity, but that would be silly.)
> >>
> >> You are correct that the 12 minute discharge (0.2C rate), the 0.5C rate,
> >> and the 1C rate all show the same capacity, 3.25 mA-hr. While the 2 hour
> >> discharge (2C rate) shows a slightly elevated capacity of  3.350 mA.
> >>
> >>   I suspect that the faster rates had some unavoidable internal
> >> heating, (even though the case temperature was held at a constant 25
> >> degrees Celsius,) which tends to decrease the internal resistance, and
> >> tends to raise the terminal voltage under load, especially when the
> >> impedance rises near the end. Thus, the apparent capacity shift is quite
> >> likely due to increased internal temperature rather than ion diffusion.
> >>
> >>   Lead acid curves would have shown a much greater sensitivity to
> the
> >> discharge rate. Much greater. As I said earlier, the ions can diffuse
> >> perhaps 100 times more quickly in Li-Ion cells than in lead-acid cells,
> >> which makes the Puekert exponent very close to unity in Li_ion. Puekert
> >> is not really useful in Li_ion because the diffusion is so fast in
> Li-Ion.
> >>
> >> Bill D.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/17/2019 12:40 AM, paul dove via EV wrote:
> >>> That’s not what the spec sheet says. You are reading the graph for
> >> temperature variations. There is almost no difference due to discharge
> >> rates. 2C is 3250 and 0.5C is 3350 according to your spec sheet.
> >>> And lead acid batteries have a Puekert coefficient as low as 1.08.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
>  On Mar 15, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Steve Heath via EV 
> >> wrote:
>  Peukert's law is not an actual law but an empirical formula that is
> >> based on actual physical measurements. It gives an approximate estimate
> of
> >> how much capacity can be obtained. The way that it is used is that the
> >> capacity is measured at different discharge rates to give a co-efficient
> >> that can then be applied to other batteries.  This is where the
> difficulty
> >> lies. The coefficient is taken by measurement and providing another
> battery
> >> is the same then the coefficient is applicable. If not and it isn't.
>  The key point is that the discharge curves for li ion batteries do
> vary
> >> significantly depending on the load in real life according to the
> >> manufacturer data.  At the 0% soc end point, the capacities are the same
> >> (give or take). This is why the Peukerts coefficient is close to 1
> rather
> >> than 1.2 or higher for a lead acid battery. Hence the comment that it is
> >> not 

Re: [EVDL] Alibaba/Aliexpress Lithium

[Michael Ross via EV]

Discharging to 0%SOC is not a realistic condition for Li ion cells in a
large pack, and I am not aware that PbSO4 are taken below 50% fro greatest
life (though I don;t know the why and wherefores of this). With Li ion you
get more usable capacity  - down to 15% or 20%SOC. Not going to 0% is about
not pushing individual low capacity cells around the bend and turning them
into a short in the pack.  An important consideration for EV manufacturers
is getting cells that are very consistent in their performance.  This
allows them to safely push the cutoff voltage lower. I understand that
Tesla packs call ~80% to be 100%, and ~20% to be 0% to ensure the range
does not drop in anything close to the near term of the pack.

Taking a Li ion cell to 0%SOC is not an issue because at that condition the
electrodes and electrolytes are not reactive at all; but, when near
100%SOC, coupled with excessive heat, this causes the very reactive de-
lithiated positive electrode to damage the electrolyte.

So a small appliance with only a few  Li ion cells, going very close to
0%SOC, is not as likely to be troubling. Cooking them in a cheap charger
that get hot and stays hot at fully charged, is a good way to ruin cells.

The cell chemistry has a lot to do with the ability to withstand high SOC.
LiFePO is particularly susceptible to damage at lower temperatures (even as
low as 95°F) with 100%SOC is going to cause trouble. Whereas the better
chemistries and with judicious use of additives to hold off damage to the
cells can handle higher temps. Managing the pack to not actually go close
to 100%SOC also speeds up charging.  They nave really float charge them, so
you average a higher C during a "full" charge.

It is fortunate that driving after a full charge quickly brings the SOC
down away from the reactive 100% SOC state. It is always best to store Li
ion cells at something less than 100%SOC. I have heard 80% suggested as a
good SOC for storage.

On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 2:20 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> That’s not what the spec sheet says. You are reading the graph for
> temperature variations. There is almost no difference due to discharge
> rates. 2C is 3250 and 0.5C is 3350 according to your spec sheet.
>
> And lead acid batteries have a Puekert coefficient as low as 1.08.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Mar 15, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Steve Heath via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Peukert's law is not an actual law but an empirical formula that is
> based on actual physical measurements. It gives an approximate estimate of
> how much capacity can be obtained. The way that it is used is that the
> capacity is measured at different discharge rates to give a co-efficient
> that can then be applied to other batteries.  This is where the difficulty
> lies. The coefficient is taken by measurement and providing another battery
> is the same then the coefficient is applicable. If not and it isn't.
> >
> > The key point is that the discharge curves for li ion batteries do vary
> significantly depending on the load in real life according to the
> manufacturer data.  At the 0% soc end point, the capacities are the same
> (give or take). This is why the Peukerts coefficient is close to 1 rather
> than 1.2 or higher for a lead acid battery. Hence the comment that it is
> not applicable. It is there but very small to be accurate.  However at a
> typical self preservation point e.g   cutoff voltage used by BMS, the
> capacities are different. As a result, there is a "Peukerts" effect where
> the amount of capacity that can be obtained is different depending on the
> discharge current. It is not the same Peukerts effect but the end result is
> the same. Discharge more, less capacity...
> >
> > The data sheet for a Panasonic 18650 shows this effect very well (
> https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf ) where a cut off
> voltage of 3v gives a capacity of 2400mAh at 2c and 3300 mAh  at 0.2C .  At
> the 0% soc point they all come out at 3300 and 3400. So discharging to 0%
> soc, the discharge current is more or less irrelevant. Interestingly these
> results are taken at constant cell temperature where any overheating
> advantage is not applicable. Without seeing the complete paper that was
> referred to, it is difficult to know if any comparison with manufacturer
> data was made or whether tests were done at constant temperature and what
> the results were.
> >
> > Discharging to a lower 15-20% level to protect the battery, there is a
> big difference. If you want to get the best capacity out of a li ion
> battery with a BMS, either reduce the discharge rate or change the BMS to
> accept a lower cutoff voltage and risk battery damage.
> >
> > SNIP

-- 
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(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] Alibaba/Aliexpress Lithium packs

[Michael Ross via EV]

My experience (limited and dated to be sure) is you get what you pay for.
In particular, a cheaper pack with a no name source, the cells may not be
well matched in capacity and the BMS may be total crap. I tried to carry on
conversations with a couple suppliers at this tier and found that they knew
almost nothing about the cells they used, or how to test them to see if
they had any quality and consistency. They offered graphs and specs that
made no sense at all. Axes not labeled, missing information, etc. I believe
they were running long tests at levels that would never damage or detect a
defective cell, but they had a lot of repititions so it sounded OK. If you
don't know much about the cells in your packs, then you can't set up the
battery management so it does a good job.

Its a jungle out there.

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 9:35 AM Dan Baker via EV  wrote:

> Hello EVDL members
>
> I'm looking at replacing the lead pack on my pontoon boat this year with a
> much lighter lithium solution.  I see on Aliexpress that they have 12v and
> 48v 100ah packs with built in BMS that look be the best prices I've seen.
>  These are brands I have not heard before (GTK/Demuda, etc) The area I live
> in doesn't have a lot of EVs so finding used cells for DIY is quite
> sparse.  Anyone have any experience with purchasing packs from Aliexpress,
> are they any good?
>
> Thank you
> Dan
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Re: [EVDL] Alibaba/Aliexpress Lithium

[Michael Ross via EV]

If you want to see whether a cell will last a long time you have to test it
in damaging conditions - full charge and high temps.

Cycling does nothing useful beyond allowing the cell to spend more time a
conditions that are not damaging at all. That's not really useful, but is
is what you will get from most low cost purveyors. When I tried to survey
vendors I got nowhere even finding out the test conditions.

If you could get tests that actually stress the cells you still have to
make comparisons between various cells to see if they are consistent in
withstanding the difficult conditions, or a particular brand or design is
better than another.

Your best bet is to go with a vendor and manufacturer that has a good
reputation, and that is likely not a low cost solution.

I am not sure about previous discussions and you may know this: Peukert's
Law is not applicable to Li ion cells in any way. It only relates to lead
acid cells.

If you nave not listened to lectures by Jeff Dahn you should to understand
how Li ion cells are damaged.
http://tinyurl.com/y395ahod
This 2013 lecture is worth spending time with on what causes Li ion cells
to die:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs

On Thu, Mar 14, 2019 at 6:20 AM Dan Baker via EV  wrote:

> I have been communicating with a couple sellers now on Aliexpress.  Prices
> seem quite varied and reviews are mixed on these batteries.  I suspect
> there isn't a lot of standards or testing on actual claimed capacities.  I
> would like to try a 12v pack or 2 before buying more and perform some tests
> to verify capacity.  Has anyone done this testing before?  I assume the ah
> rating is based on a 1amp draw for x amount of claimed hours.  So would I
> hook up a 12 watt load (LED bulbs?) and watch pack voltage till it drops
> till below 12v?  Or would I measure it till the BMS protection cuts in -
> (9-10v?).  Some reviewers have found packs listed at 100ah capacity to
> actually have only 30ah cells inside, lots of misinformation.
>
> Thank you,
> Dan
>
> On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:01 PM Jay Summet via EV 
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On 3/12/19 9:59 AM, Dan Baker via EV wrote:
> >
> > > If I don't charge with my Sevcons and use the included individual 12v
> > > chargers, would there still be worry of connecting too many in series?
> > Is
> > > it charging,discharging or both the issue when connecting in series?
> >
> > That depends entirely upon the battery model/manufacturer and the specs
> > for that specific battery.  If there is an issue, it would most likely
> > be an issue for both charging and discharging.
> >
> > The thing to watch out for is if the batteries have a MOSFET (solid
> > state switch) that is used to disconnect the battery when charging (done
> > charging, voltage too high) or when discharging (voltage too low).  In
> > many cases, the MOSFETS are not rated for super high voltages. It may be
> > twice the working voltage or much higher (24,36 or perhaps 60 volt
> > rated).  If your series pack goes above the MOSFET rating, it is likely
> > to fail spectacularly (short closed in the worst case) when it is asked
> > to disconnect the battery.
> >
> > If the batteries use relays or contractors, they may or may not be rated
> > for higher series voltages, you need to verify.
> >
> > In short, the electronics that are making these batteries "drop in
> > replacements" for a 12 volt battery are designed to work at that voltage
> > level...with perhaps  a 2x or 4x safety factor (24 to 48 volts), but the
> > system was not designed for high voltage (72-144 or higher) to be seen
> > by the battery.
> >
> > The BattleBorn batteries for example use 60V electronics, and are rated
> > to be used in series up to a 48 volt system (They were designed this way
> > to be a drop in replacement for 12, 24, 36 and 48 volt solar power
> > systemsbut many "auto starter" or RV replacement batteries gave no
> > thought about using more than one in series, or if they did, it was only
> > up to a 24 or 48 volt level.)
> >
> > Jay
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Mining tycoon pulling a JBstrubel to tap the global EV race

[Michael Ross via EV]

Obviously, if a supplier is unable to perform and meet spec . . . But what
is your basis for concern?

Tesla is the premier EV maker in terms of cell manufacturing, they ought to
be able to handle a new supplier if anyone can. Is there something wrong
with Ganfeng Lithium'?



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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 11:10 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 5 Feb 2019 at 21:21, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > Ganfeng Lithium's agreement last year with Tesla, under which it will
> > supply a fifth of its production to Elon Musk's carmaker.
>
> Interesting.  I wonder what effect that will have on Teslas' reliability
> and
> battery longevity.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla acquires Maxwell dry-electrode tech

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is worth remembering that Musk did graduate work on ultra-capacitors and
has always believed they are worth more development. Musk has spent a lot
of time with ultra-capacitors and is well educated and experienced to
evaluate them.


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On Tue, Feb 5, 2019 at 10:50 PM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
> https://electrek.co/2019/02/04/tesla-acquires-ultracapacitor-battery-manufacturer/
> Tesla acquires ultracapacitor and battery manufacturer for over $200
> million
> Feb. 4th 2019  Fred Lambert
>
> [image
>
> https://i0.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/02/Tesla-Maxwell-ultracapacitor.jpg
> ]
>
> Tesla hasn’t been known for making many acquisitions, but we’ve now learned
> that it has reached an agreement to acquire ultracapacitor and battery
> component manufacturer Maxwell based in California.
>
> It’s the automaker’s 5th important acquisition to date.
>
> The all-stock transaction worth over $200 million was announced by Maxwell
> this morning and we reached out to Tesla to confirm the news.
>
> Tesla confirmed that they reached an agreement with the company and
> commented:
>
> “We are always looking for potential acquisitions that make sense for
> the business and support Tesla’s mission to accelerate the world’s
> transition to sustainable energy.”
>
> Maxwell is best-known as an ultracapacitor manufacturer and it has also
> recently been talking about a dry electrode technology for batteries.
>
> Dr. Franz Fink, President and Chief Executive Officer of Maxwell, commented
> on today’s announcement:
>
> “We are very excited with today’s announcement that Tesla has agreed to
> acquire Maxwell. Tesla is a well-respected and world-class innovator that
> shares a common goal of building a more sustainable future. We believe this
> transaction is in the best interests of Maxwell stockholders and offers
> investors the opportunity to participate in Tesla’s mission of accelerating
> the advent of sustainable transport and energy.” ...
>
> The company is based in San Diego and it has about 380 employees.
>
> Maxwell had been talking about a potential “strategic partnership” in the
> works for a few months regarding its dry electrode technology.
>
> Aside from the new technology, the company also has its ultracapacitor
> business. They reported $91 million in revenue during the first 9 months of
> 2018 ...
>
> Electrek’s Take
>
> Tesla CEO Elon Musk first moved to California in the 90s in order to do a
> PhD on ultracapacitors, but he quickly stopped to start an internet
> company.
>
> The technology has never been adopted by electric vehicle manufacturers who
> favored Li-ion batteries.
>
> But Tesla’s acquisition of Maxwell might have little to do with
> ultracapacitors.
>
> The automaker might be more interested with Maxwell’s dry electrode
> technology that they have been hyping recently.
>
> Maxwell claims that its electrode enables an energy density of over 300
> Wh/kg in current demonstration cells and they see a path to over 500 Wh/kg.
>
> This would represent a significant improvement over current battery cells
> used by Tesla and enable longer range or lighter weight, but that’s not
> even
> the most attractive benefit of Maxwell’s dry electrode.
>
> They claim that it should simplify the manufacturing process and result in
> a
> “10 to 20% cost reduction versus state-of-the-art wet electrodes” while
> “extending battery Life up to a factor of 2.”
>
> I think this is really exciting.
>
> Many companies have been making similar claims about batteries. Tesla,
> specifically Elon and JB, have often complained that they couldn’t verify
> those claims.
>
> If Tesla is willing to pay $200 million for Maxwell, I have to assume that
> they verified the claims and they believe the technology is applicable to
> their batteries.
> [© electrek.co]
>
>
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/04/tesla-to-but-maxwell-technologies-for-4point75-a-share.html
> Tesla to buy energy tech company Maxwell Technologies for about $218
> million
> 4 Feb 2019  Tesla CEO Elon Musk is a fan of the technology for electric
> cars. Musk has ... "As TSLA works toward lowering EV prices to expand its
> addressable market while ...
>
>
> +
> https://insideevs.com/new-battery-cell-patented-by-tesla/
> New Battery Cell Patented By Tesla: Faster Charging, Lower Cost
> FEB 5 2019  But, the new patent filed by the Tesla battery research group,
> describes how the new battery technology could be useful ...
>
> https://d2t6ms4cjod3h9.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Tesla-Battery-Patent-Application-Image-1-898x647.jpg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: 

Re: [EVDL] (use del key, block brucedp email address, 4unwanted posts)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Wasted bandwidth with respect to text based lists is a severely outdated
concern. The amount of bits consumed by this list, for a decade, times all
the users of this list is exactly... insignificant. Heck they almost give
away terabyte hard drives.

And Bruce, I have moderated numerous lists and by far the most irritating
duty is smoothing the feathers of people who can't hit delete without
getting uppity and personal. I think every thing you have been doing is
just fine.  Thank you very much for your great effort and service to the
cause. I know of no one who contributes as much to EVs on the internet,
gratis. I bow to you.

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 4:35 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> I like the separate posts.  Easier to get to link directly.
>
> I find the single summary post to be surperfluous and requires more steps..
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 4:17 PM
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org; ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: Lawrence Rhodes 
> Subject: [EVDL] (use del key, block brucedp email address, 4unwanted posts)
>
> Bruce,
> My only complaint is the double postings of almost all the ev wire articles
> as single posts.  Waste of bandwidth in my opinion.  Not sure of a
> solution.
> It does waste a little time sorting through them. Not as bad as attaching a
> whole digest. Lawrence Rhodes
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>
>

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Re: [EVDL] battery cell information johnson 24s cells

[Michael Ross via EV]

I looked at the website for "Johnson Controls" solar cells, It looks
sketchy to me.
Where is the Johnson Controls part number?
Is this used or off spec hardware?
"Johnson Controls" is a good name to throw out there, but it seems like
more information would be available if it really  is the Johnson Controls
we are used to seeing. Be careful.

Hopefully some other people here will chime in.

The working range of Li ion cells depends on the capacity of the cells -
the actual capacity, not some spec sheet capacity. *You cannot use voltage*
because the slope of voltage versus state of charge is too flat to be
useful. A very tiny change in voltage can have a huge change in state of
charge, this an odd characteristic of Li ion cells..

I suggest you work out a way to learn the capacity of at least one of your
cells by measuring it. And if you want the best life then you should
evaluate all the cells and react accordingly. This is what careful EV
DIY'ers have been doing for a long time. You back away from this with
increasing risk according to how much unsubstantiated information you pay
attention to. If the packs are pre-owned, or not up to spec somehow, you
really want to look closely at them.

You say you want to operate your EV within a range of "90% of the power."
 That is a worrisome statement because it is not the right words to use if
you understand what you are doing.

This "90% range," do you meant you want to have a discharge cutoff at a 5%
state of charge, and a charging cutoff at 95% state of charge? You
definitely want to bottom balance your pack very well, and have consistent
capacities for all the cells to go this low. If you discharge a cell to 0%
and keep going, bad things can happen.  If you don't understand what I am
talking about, please keep learning before proceeding.



On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 8:46 AM evtlfp20 via EV  wrote:

> there balanced fine, I just want to know where the working range for
> %90 of the power is. I've heard each chemistry / brand is different. I
> found a graph for leaf cells NMC like theses.
>
>
>
> > I am not sure what you want the depth of discharge graph for. The cells
> > won't be identical and the graph would actually be a band, or range
> > about
> > an average DOD.
> >
> > It might be advantageous to measure the capacity of each cell and
> > return
> > any that seem to far out from the others. If you are not interested in
> > that, then you can formulate an useful DOD limit for the pack based on
> > the
> > capacities.  I personally thin balancing the pack at the level of
> > discharge
> > is best = bottom balancing. Then you can implement a shutoff voltage or
> > DOD% with some factor of safety, and select a float charge that is not
> > too
> > high.
> >
> > This is fairly laborious, but it protects tour investment.
> >
> > A car company like Tesla will control manufacturing processes and have
> > tight control over the cells construction and capacity,  So they can
> > build
> > a pack without laborious balancing and still get good performance. It
> > is
> > very hard to get useful information about batteries bought retail,
> > wholesale or used.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 2:26 PM evtlfp20 via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>   the company is not giving me very much information. they stat a
> >> voltage
> >> range but I'm looking for a DOD graph, they stat NMC chemisrty not not
> >> much more .
> >>
> >>
> https://www.techdirectclub.com/johnson-controls-24-cells-solar-battery-90-vdc-total-2-5-kwh/
> >> ___
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> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >>
> >>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Failed Tesla eMMC bricks(kills) pack> warranty-over= sol

[Michael Ross via EV]

https://www.datalight.com/solutions/technologies/emmc/what-is-emmc

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 9:33 AM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 11 May 2019 at 4:20, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > On the specific issue, the eMMC chip in older Teslas is based within
> > the car's media control unit and used to log data collected by the
> > media system.
>
> Exactly what data are they logging from a media system, and what are they
> doing with it?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
>
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Re: [EVDL] switch DPDT wringing for hi/lo lights

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am not sure what you are trying to do and I don't want to figure it out,
but I will say you can definitely jumper the terminals and something will
happen. I used to design switches for Eaton Corp and it was common to ship
some configurations with this kind of mod. For example a DPDT can be used
to reverse a DC motor by switching the output polarity.  This probably
Google-able.

I would advocate that you carefully diagram the circuit on paper. It is
easy to get this sort of thing wrong.

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:36 PM evtlfp20 via EV  wrote:

>   on my electric motorcycle  I want to use my DPDT  3 postion switch to
> have like a hi /lo beam,  but both lights on "hi beam " and one on "low
> beam"setting.
>
> sw postion   1   2  3
>1 light / off/  2nd light & 1st light both
>
>
>
> Can do i do this by  jumpering across 1 & 3  on one side only??
>
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Re: [EVDL] NMC /w zero volts

[Michael Ross via EV]

Keep in mind that many hand held meters cannot accurately report mOhms. You
should look up the specs on your meter to see what it is actually capable
of.


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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 1:31 PM evtlfp20 via EV  wrote:

>
> >
> > Third, if you were able to charge them, check their internal
> > resistance. It cannot be the "17-22 meg" that you said. Did you
> > mis-type, and it's really 17-22 milli-ohms (0.017 to 0.022 ohms)? How
> > did you measure it?
>
> using my icharger 306b  it says 18m n  omega  sysmbol.
> >
> > A 30 amphour cell good for 10C would have to deliver 300 amps.
>
> 10 c this is burst current I hope they can do 2 or 3 c steady ..
>
> can you show us the math how this nmc cell could not do this ?
>
>
>
>
> To do
> > this, it can't have an internal resistance more than about 5 milliohms
> > (0.005 ohms). So even if yours are 17-22 milliohms, they are bad.
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: ?aboutface/turnabout?> TMC EVs.cn (C-HR battery electrics)

[Michael Ross via EV]

That concept looks ridiculous. An EV of merit should be streamlined to
maximize efficiency. This idea is clearly about aggressive appearance and
little else.

I have owned and appreciated many Toyota cars, but in the realm of EVs they
have been nothing but disappointing. Once again.

On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 3:56 AM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/toyota-shows-off-electric-vehicle-064233760.html
> Toyota shows off electric vehicle concept car that only has one front seat
> April 18, 2019  CNBC
>
> [image
>
> https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/x4sW31HFxyQnkJx03wJsoA--~A/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9ODAw/http://media.zenfs.com/en-us/homerun/autos.cnbc.com/5293fbb0efd4f207b6c460384696a036
>  Rhombus concept EV
> ]
>
> Toyota shows off electric vehicle concept car that only has one front seat
> The Rhombus is a concept car for a battery-powered electric vehicle
> targeted
> at consumers born after 1990.
>
> Toyota brought a crop of hybrid and fully electric vehicles to the Shanghai
> Auto Show this year.
>
> The Rhombus, pictured above, is a concept car for a battery-powered
> electric
> vehicle targeted at consumers born after 1990, according to a release. The
> vehicle was developed by TMEC, the company's research and development base
> in China.
>
> A single swivel seat at the front replaces the typical two-seat driver's
> row, while two seats in the back make up a lounge-like area.
>
> Toyota said it plans to roll out more than 10 battery electric vehicle
> models globally in the next five or six years, with a sales target of more
> than 5.5 million electrified vehicles worldwide by 2030.
>
> The C-HR and IZOA battery electric models that premiered in Shanghai will
> be
> the first such vehicles to launch in China under the Japanese automaker's
> brand. Sales are expected to begin next year.
> [© yahoo.com]
>
>
> Toyota unveils C-HR based electric crossovers for China - Autoblog
> https://www.autoblog.com/2019/04/16/toyota-electric-c-hr-china-shanghai/
> APR 15 2019 - Toyota has officially unveiled its C-HR-based electric
> crossovers for the Chinese market. The GAC Toyota-built electric C-HR and
> the FAW ...
>
>
> Battery-Powered Toyota C-HR Highlights Electric Debuts In China
> https://insideevs.com/toyota-c-hr-ev-china-rhombus-izoa-video/
> APR 16 2019 - Toyota brought three all-electric vehicles to debut at the
> 2019 Auto ... is also the C-HR, but wears a badge proclaiming itself to be
> the Izoa EV ...
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcIHTxzNTtk
>
>
> +
> https://electrek.co/2019/04/18/toyota-selling-electric-vehicles-profit/
> Toyota: ‘nobody is selling electric vehicles at a profitable margin’ –
> wrong!
> Apr. 18th 2019  Toyota is probably the least interested in battery-electric
> vehicles out of all the major automakers ... can’t believe how dumb Toyota
> is being about electric vehicles ...
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
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Re: [EVDL] Excellent article (was: Lets discourage hydrogen advocates. )

[Michael Ross via EV]

Electrolysis has thermodynamic limits to efficiency, but making H2 and O2
are a good way to store, large scale, renewable energy for which no other
means are as environmentally sound.

We don't want to dam up any water courses if that is possible, so more pump
storage is to be avoided. It would be nice not to resort to nukes. The
materials needed to store energy using batteries on a large utility scale
are prohibitive, plus these materials are very helpful for transportation
applications.  We could store off peak renewable energy production in large
tanks and combust them when peak demand hits. The cost of enormous tanks is
far less compared to batteries on the same enormous scale. This is cleaner
too than dealing with spent batteries.

I don't like H2 for mobile applications. Batteries keep getting better.



On Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 10:41 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> The author claims the only real advantage to fuel cells is the fueling
> time. And that was two years ago. It's even less of an advantage now and
> the trend is continuing.
>
> The only other argument I can see would be the efficiency of the overall
> system, including generating hydrogen. The generation part is the loser.
> As far as I know, there are only two ways to generate large amounts of
> hydrogen: electrolysis or breaking down hydrocarbon molecules.
> Electrolysis is about 50% efficient, I think. Hydrocarbon generally
> depends on natural gas, and I think we're going to see an enormous push
> back on fracking as more health and environmental issues manifest.
>
> Maybe Toyota got a lot of grant money from Calif. ?
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bill Dube via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Bill Dube" 
> Sent: 26-Jun-19 6:43:27 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Excellent article (was: Lets discourage hydrogen
> advocates. )
>
> >Very well researched article on H2 fuel cells versus EV's.
> >
> >The article expertly covers the "what" but doesn't mention the "why" of
> Toyota and H2.
> >I really would like to know what motivates Toyota to keep pushing H2
> passenger cars.
> >
> >Bill D.
> >
> >On 6/27/2019 9:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> >>https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/
> >>This was a story saying Toyota thought Elon Musk was right but they were
> going to make Fool cells anyway.  Lawrence Rhodes
> >>___
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> >>
> >>
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Grid tie is the most sensible storage medium that we have.


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On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 7:15 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:

> Microinverters will not work without a grid
> bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Michael Ross via EV
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 6:57 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Michael Ross 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
>
> I haven't looked closely at this, but panels with on board micro-inverters
> are nice because you can buy one now, buy another one later, etc., until
> you have the kW you want. They output 120VAC.  Seems like a good way to
> support an EV, or at least cover some of the charging with solar.
>
> I suspect that trying to have home EV charging all from solar, is the same
> problem as running a home with all solar - it really drives up cost
> planning for peak demand, and dealing with cloudy days - fi you are going
> to store a large excess that is going to be a a lot of batteries. It makes
> a grid tied system the economically pleasing choice. You can grid tie
> micro-inverter panels.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_c
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>
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 4:18 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Yes, But of course, solar can only charge the EV during the day.  The
> > simplistic approach using off-the shelf components would need a
> > minimum of
> > 2 kW of solar panels (8 or more) to be sure tha most solar days could
> > produce the absolute minimum of 1.5 kW which is the minimum standard
> > 120v EV charge cord.
> >
> > But then you have to go from the DC solar panels at 30v or so to the
> > 120 VAC needed by the standard charge cord.  To do that, you need a DC
> > solar battery charge regulator, then a small 24 volt battery (to
> > smooth the
> > energy) to drive a 2 kW 24votl AC inverter.  Then you plug the car
> > charger into that.
> >
> > And you have to have a low-voltage cutout circuit so you don't run the
> > 24v battery down when the clouds come oue, etc...
> >
> > So as you can see, it is a kludge of off-the-shelf items because no
> > one has yet built a consumer device to take direct Solar DC and handle
> > all these functions to deliver stable power to the car.
> >
> > If that property has the grid to it, it makes no sense to ever
> > consider going off grid.  Because with a net meter you have 100% free
> > solar storage.  And for a remote vacation property that is only
> > occupied say 10% of the time, then  you only need 10% of the solar
> > panels because those 10% can be storing months worth of power in the
> > grid (via the net meter) that is available to your instantly anytime you
> visit the house.
> >
> > Off grid makes zero economic sense if the grid is available.  But if
> > the grid is not available, then off-grid is the only way to go, BUT
> > the solar array has to be X times bigger to accommodate the full power
> > needed in the single worst day need.  Where as with grid tie, a much
> > smaller set of panels can be stroing a yeaers worth of sunshine in the
> > grid for free that you can draw out at any time and at ANY rate... Up
> > to the maximum capacity of the grid-to-the-house.
> >
> > Bob, WB4aPR
> > Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder
> > via EV
> > Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:55 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> > Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder 
> > Subject: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and
> > use the EV as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What
> > would be needed to make that happen?  I envision solar panels
> > connected to microinverters which would 

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Micro-inverters. Yes, grid tie is best. And most economical and completely
normal. That is true for residential solar generally,  most homes will
benefit from grid tie. So no problem.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 7:21 PM jim via EV  wrote:

>  Microinverters that are currentlly available require grid tie to
> function, or some source of good AC to feed into.  My garage and shop
> system is off grid and charges the Leaf in addition to running other stuff,
> but it has a seperate 1500 amp hour 24 volt battery that is charged by
> solar and wind.  I can charge the Leaf at up to 4 kw due to the size of my
> inverter.  There is currently no simple way to do what you are thinking of.
> Jim Erdman, in Western Wisconsin
> SNIP

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

I haven't looked closely at this, but panels with on board micro-inverters
are nice because you can buy one now, buy another one later, etc., until
you have the kW you want. They output 120VAC.  Seems like a good way to
support an EV, or at least cover some of the charging with solar.

I suspect that trying to have home EV charging all from solar, is the same
problem as running a home with all solar - it really drives up cost
planning for peak demand, and dealing with cloudy days - fi you are going
to store a large excess that is going to be a a lot of batteries. It makes
a grid tied system the economically pleasing choice. You can grid tie
micro-inverter panels.








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On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 4:18 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> Yes, But of course, solar can only charge the EV during the day.  The
> simplistic approach using off-the shelf components would need a minimum of
> 2 kW of solar panels (8 or more) to be sure tha most solar days could
> produce the absolute minimum of 1.5 kW which is the minimum standard 120v
> EV charge cord.
>
> But then you have to go from the DC solar panels at 30v or so to the 120
> VAC needed by the standard charge cord.  To do that, you need a DC solar
> battery charge regulator, then a small 24 volt battery (to smooth the
> energy) to drive a 2 kW 24votl AC inverter.  Then you plug the car charger
> into that.
>
> And you have to have a low-voltage cutout circuit so you don't run the 24v
> battery down when the clouds come oue, etc...
>
> So as you can see, it is a kludge of off-the-shelf items because no one
> has yet built a consumer device to take direct Solar DC and handle all
> these functions to deliver stable power to the car.
>
> If that property has the grid to it, it makes no sense to ever consider
> going off grid.  Because with a net meter you have 100% free solar
> storage.  And for a remote vacation property that is only occupied say 10%
> of the time, then  you only need 10% of the solar panels because those 10%
> can be storing months worth of power in the grid (via the net meter) that
> is available to your instantly anytime you visit the house.
>
> Off grid makes zero economic sense if the grid is available.  But if the
> grid is not available, then off-grid is the only way to go, BUT the solar
> array has to be X times bigger to accommodate the full power needed in the
> single worst day need.  Where as with grid tie, a much smaller set of
> panels can be stroing a yeaers worth of sunshine in the grid for free that
> you can draw out at any time and at ANY rate... Up to the maximum capacity
> of the grid-to-the-house.
>
> Bob, WB4aPR
> Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder via EV
> Sent: Friday, July 12, 2019 3:55 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder 
> Subject: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?
>
> Hi all,
>
> Would it be possible to hook a small solar panel system to an EV and use
> the EV as the battery storage for an off grid solar system?  What would be
> needed to make that happen?  I envision solar panels connected to
> microinverters which would then charge the EV.  Then if you needed power
> at night, you could use some power from the EV.  Would that work?  Would
> you need another part to that puzzle to get it to work?  Would it cause
> problems for the EV?
>
> I am not looking to do this myself but we had a guy come and charge his
> Tesla at our place.  He has a lot and camper where he goes camping and
> would like to install solar and be off grid.  I was just wondering what
> that setup would look like.
>
> Mark.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

It seems like I am being misunderstood. You can buy solar arrays each with
its own MPP and inverter to produce 120VAC. You can buy one and add more
over time with out consideration of string balancing and such.

You can tie them to the grid, and if your rate plan us good then you will
be offsetting the cost of charging your EV with whatever the present size
of your microinverter solar arrays is.


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On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 1:23 AM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > No, just because it produces 60 Hz AC does not make it a Microinverter.
> > Anyone can make an inverter,  They are dirt cheap from 1kw to 3 kW and
> only
> > cost about 15 cents a watt!  You can buy a 2 kW "inverter" for not much
> > more than $300.  But that does not make it a Grid-Tie microinverer.
> >
> > A grid tie microinverter is a CURRENT SOURCE that pushes current against
> an
> > existing waveform  It has to have an infinite load (the grid) or the
> > voltage will soar out of sight if the load goes down.  That is what
> current
> > sources do.  Fundamental EE.
>
> Bob is right. People are being a bit loose with their definitions.
>
> A "microinverter" is just a small inverter. There are zillions of these.
>
> A normal inverter is one whose control circuits make it behave like a
> voltage source. The inverter sets the output voltage and frequency at
> (say 120vac 60hz). The load then draws whatever current it needs, from 0
> to the max power the inverter can handle. The inverter does its best to
> hold the voltage at 120vac while supplying that current.
>
> A "grid tie" inverter is an inverter whose control circuits make it
> behave like a current source. The *grid* sets the voltage and frequency;
> the inverter just delivers its current. Without a grid, such an inverter
> won't work.
>
> The power section of an inverter is the same, regardless of what type it
> is. The differences are in the control circuitry. Generally, the power
> section costs all the money. The control circuitry is cheap in comparison.
>
> > Sure, one can design a box that can do both,  But that is a complex
> > internal circuitry that does either one or the other, but they are
> totally
> > different circuits...
>
> Well, nowdays it's just a one-chip microcomputer that costs a few
> dollars; no matter what kind of inverter you're building.
>
> --
> In software development, there are two kinds of error: Conceptual
> errors, implementation errors, and off-by-one errors. (anonymous)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with Duke
Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you want
to do. Clearly, YMMV.

I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that needed
charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of microinverter
120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains May 31
they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.


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On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV 
wrote:

>  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> utilities
> imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
> which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement -- essentially
> doing grid intertie on the sly.
>
> This is veering around and nearly clipping the Off-Topic guardrails,
> but because you brought it up:
>
> At least one to-be-left-unnamed EV driver and solar enthusiast was
> guilty of participating in that clandestine program:
>
> http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/gsolar.pdf
>
> And here's what happens when the utility figures it out:
>
> http://www.westlanetv.org/~sharkey/Amnesty_for_Solar_Guerrillas.pdf
>
> (see lower right of first page, and upper left of second)
>
> I, er this guy, got off easy, they could just as easily sic'ed the
> County permit and inspection authority on me, uh, him, threatened
> utility power disconnect, or applied other punitive sanctions such as
> a retroactive energy charge of their own estimation. In the end , all
> the utility wanted was to stop being annoyed by the alarms and alerts
> in the new software program that they were running to administer the
> smart meter program for 79,000 customers.
>
> Before I go, R.I.P. to friends Richard and Karen Perez, and goodbye
> to Home Power Magazine, which ceased publication in October of 2018.
>
> 
> Drink This Before Bed, Watch Your Body Fat Melt Like Crazy
> Diet Insider
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5d2a63e484ff63da646est01vuc
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>

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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Thank you Bob. That was very succinct.

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On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:22 AM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> That is why batteries TRIPLE the cost compared to a grid system and also
> require summer/winter life style changes:
> 1) As you say, when the batteries are full, all your solar investment is
> doing *nothing*
> 2) In order to have power on cloudy days, you have to oversize the
> batteries 3 to 5 times a day's capacity
> 3) Combine #1 and #2 and your solar is spending 1/3rd of most days doing
> *nothing*
> 4) You cannot store in batteries the 2X more energy you get in the summer
> for use later in the winter
> 5) So, you either throw away half of your solar production in the summer
> and live a tolerable winter life style
> 6) Or you invest for your summer lifestyle and then just survive the winter
> with half power.
>
> Battery storage when you have the grid (net meter)  is simply not
> economically practical in any way whatsoever.
> (Unless you get free batteries and are willling to maintain them for the
> rest of your life)...
>
> Bob
> Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:06 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> > 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> > domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> > assumption, or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the
> > battery is always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The
> > battery would always be charging from a solar array, never from the
> > grid.
> >
> > It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> > negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> > solar panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > -- Original Message --
> > From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> > Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
> > Sent: 14-Jul-19 4:54:09 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >
> > >For what it is worth... For off grid or backup power,.I have some 500W
> and
> > >2500W 120 VAC to 240VAC transformers.  Great for stepping up a single
> > phase
> > >120v generator to 240 VAC for a well pump or other emergency power
> needs.
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/d/glen-burnie-v-transformers/6928546512.html
> > >
> > >$30. Baltimore area.  Will not ship.
> > >
> > >On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:40 AM Michael Ross via EV  >
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >>  I get all that because I have panels and a net metering plan with
> Duke
> > >>  Power. As I said it depends on whether your utility supports what you
> > want
> > >>  to do. Clearly, YMMV.
> > >>
> > >>  I personally could do exactly as I described.  If I had an EV that
> > needed
> > >>  charging regularly, I could put up a ground based array of
> > microinverter
> > >>  120VAC output arrays, and add to them pretty much at will. If I over
> > >>  produced then Duke would bank it. In the billing month that contains
> > May 31
> > >>  they would zero out any bank I had developed. I could live with that.
> > >>
> > >>  <
> > >>
> >
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> > >>  >
> > >>  Virus-free.
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> > >>
> >
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> > >>  >
> > >>  <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> > >>
> > >>  On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 7:06 PM Mr. Sharkey via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  >  >>We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.
> The
> > >>  > utilities
> > >>  > imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net
> > metering,
> > >>  > which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement -

Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Duke is not going to stop residential power generation, just discourage it.
it would be a PR nightmare for them here.

The cost of power is quite low at $0.11 per kWh. They do have a base
connection service cost that I pay even if I break even on the give and
take, it is about 200kWh x $0.11 =  $22 a month.

Duke is completely sold on solar power, what's not to like? But only if it
is under their thumb. Various businesses build, operate and maintain these
solar plantations, not only Duke itself. Lot's of jobs there, and thus the
legislature goes along with whatever Duke says.

There is far less worry with a solar power plant than a coal or nuclear
one, though they won't say it out loud.


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On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 4:38 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 13 Jul 2019 at 12:39, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
>
> > Virtually ~all~ utility companies require a customer who plans to
> > produce power and introduce it to their grid to have complied with
> > stringent regulations ... you will almost certainly be *charged* for
> > any excess power that you push back into the grid, rather than
> > credited for it
>
> Thanks for making that point.  I'm surprised at how the PV world continues
> to treat grid intertie as some kind of holy grail, even as the power
> companies take every opportunity to make it more difficult and expensive.
>
> At least in most parts of the US, and even in some places in Europe, the
> grid is NOT a gigantic free battery.  You PAY to use it.  And what you pay
> is not likely to decrease; quite to the contrary.
>
> We're going back to the way intertie started off decades ago.  The
> utilities
> imposed impossible technical and insurance requirements on net metering,
> which led PV hobbyists to start the Guerrilla Solar movement --
> essentially
> doing grid intertie on the sly.
>
> Then various states and localities, and some European nations, passed laws
> supporting net metering.  That's when intertie started to take off.  But
> more recently, the utilites have been buying politicians and getting the
> net
> metering laws reversed.  Guess what -- Guerrilla Solar is back.  Not that
> I'd ever do such a thing, mind you.
>
> I don't think the power companies are going to stop pushing back until
> they've effectively killed grid intertie.
>
> If I were building a PV system in the US today, I'd probably make it 100%
> off grid.  I'd feed a subpanel with it, and as I was able to expand the
> system over a period of years, I'd gradually transfer loads from utility
> power to home power.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)

[Michael Ross via EV]

I see maybe one long duration outage (half a day?) a year that requires
tending to the refrigerator. It never lasts too long, minutes not days. Not
enough to fund a generator. If you ever go camping it is easier than that.

Lots of generators get sold around here (hurricanes are intermittent
visitors), but I think it is the human tendency to pay attention to the
negative, and fearmongering by the vendors.

If I ever decide to get a gen set it will be a used one at a time when
hurricanes seem not much trouble. So far (25 years) I have no seen any
need. The joys of underground service, and mostly tree clear, easily
repaired distribution.


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On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 8:51 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is power outage. If the grid goes down
> with net metering so does you solar.
>
> You have to be off-grid to stay powered when the grid fails.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 14, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > But why are you so determined to use batteies when the cost of grid power
> > is ditrt cheap.
> >
> > a 1kwh deep cycle lead acid battery might cost $100.  It will store 10
> > cents of electricity per day.
> > After one year it is SHOT.  that is $100/365 days or about 27 cents per
> > kWh.  So you are paying TRIPLE the cost of electricity just for a battery
> > compared to just getting it from the grid?  And this does not even
> mention
> > the cost of solar panels.  This is purely battery storage costs.
> >
> > Even if you find magic battteries that can do 1000 discharges before
> > replacement, that still is 10 cents per kWh storage cost and still does
> not
> > even count the cost of solar to get the energy inthe first place.
> >
> > AND, unless you do a full cycle of thebattery everyday, to use y our
> > incoming solar, then you are not fully using your array.investment.  Sure
> > you can throw away all kinds of money at this problem, but nothing
> canbeat
> > being grid-tied and a net meter.  Just do it.  Do a small system at
> > contractor prices... then add panels at your leisure and at 20% of the
> cost.
> >
> > bob
> > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 10:50 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, I am proposing something simpler than a power wall - that does
> >> not feed back to the grid. Maybe that simplification doesn't reduce the
> >> cost of the battery system much, but it would reduce the legal paper
> >> work down to a normal electrical permit.
> >>
> >> Peri
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "Willie via EV" 
> >> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> >> Cc: "Willie" 
> >> Sent: 14-Jul-19 7:30:58 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (transformers)
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
>  On 7/14/19 9:06 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>  How hard would it be to build a battery system that normally supplies
> >> 100% of the domestic power but, when depleted, switches over to supply
> >> domestic power from the grid ? Also, I think it would be safe
> assumption,
> >> or at least a reasonable simplification, to assume that the battery is
> >> always sufficient for the load, except when depleted. The battery would
> >> always be charging from a solar array, never from the grid.
> 
>  It seems to me, a system like this would completely circumvent any
> >> negative conditions imposed by power companies. Of course, once the
> solar
> >> panels fill the battery, excess production is lost.
> >>>
> >>> You have described a PowerWall.  The battery is one or more units that
> >> will supply or charge 5kw and holds 13-14kwh.  If about 11kwh will carry
> >> you over night and if you don't use more than 5kw over night, a single
> >> battery unit will serve you.  With good sun, day time self power use
> can be
> >> around 20kw, including car charging.
> >>>
> >>> In 5 or so months, I have bought less than 10kwh from my utility and
> sold
> >> them something like 10,000 kwh.  That is with one battery unit.
> >>>
> >>> Cost installed was about $13k.  For smooth operation, I am highly
> >> dependent on the utility to accept my excess power.
> >>>
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> >>
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Re: [EVDL] battery cell information johnson 24s cells

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am not sure what you want the depth of discharge graph for. The cells
won't be identical and the graph would actually be a band, or range about
an average DOD.

It might be advantageous to measure the capacity of each cell and return
any that seem to far out from the others. If you are not interested in
that, then you can formulate an useful DOD limit for the pack based on the
capacities.  I personally thin balancing the pack at the level of discharge
is best = bottom balancing. Then you can implement a shutoff voltage or
DOD% with some factor of safety, and select a float charge that is not too
high.

This is fairly laborious, but it protects tour investment.

A car company like Tesla will control manufacturing processes and have
tight control over the cells construction and capacity,  So they can build
a pack without laborious balancing and still get good performance. It is
very hard to get useful information about batteries bought retail,
wholesale or used.


On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 2:26 PM evtlfp20 via EV  wrote:

>   the company is not giving me very much information. they stat a voltage
> range but I'm looking for a DOD graph, they stat NMC chemisrty not not
> much more .
>
> https://www.techdirectclub.com/johnson-controls-24-cells-solar-battery-90-vdc-total-2-5-kwh/
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Re: [EVDL] Farm EVs & PV-powered auton e-bot planter, weeder swarms> ag e-transition= e-revolution

[Michael Ross via EV]

Nothing about EVs is all that economical - today. The tech is new. The EV
economies of scale are a fraction of what exists - today. The
Infrastructure to provide large scale, stationary or mobile charging is not
there - today. To be sure the battery weight issue is easier to to solve
with a lot of ag equipment (exclude low ground pressure applications
perhaps). Farming is all about logistics, so field swapping packs is just a
thing.

I don't know how old you are, but "Ain't gonna happen in MY lifetime!"
sounds hyperbolic to me.


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On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 5:37 PM Jan Steinman via EV 
wrote:

> > From: Michael Ross 
> >
> > We already do battery swaps with fork lifts -  like forever...
> >
> > Seems like the day long use is surmountable.
>
> But economically?
>
> Fork lifts are an order of magnitude less powerful and less expensive.
>
> You'd need a half-dozen pack swaps to get through a 12-hour day. These are
> going to be ~600 kWh packs for a ~400 hp tractor!
>
> Doesn't that about quadruple the total cost of already-expensive machinery?
>
> I'm not saying it's impossible. But it's going to be a huge challenge.
>
> One thing's for sure: with 600 kWh packs, the days of wheel weights and
> calcium in the tires would be over. :-)
>
> Jan
>
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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla conspiracy

[Michael Ross via EV]

I see the naming slipping - Gigafactory in Nevada means a battery plant. In
Shanghai it is an automobile manufacturing facility.

Yes, Telsa is very sharp working in China, as long as they don't get
nationalized. Musk is true to his word wanting to keep EVs rolling along.
He will go all in as many times as necessary if history is any indication.
And apparently location is fully open as well. Diversification of politics.
No question about acting up on Chinese internet, can't do it.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 3:23 AM John Blair via EV  wrote:

> David,
>
> Here is what Gigafactory 3 in China looked like on August 3rd:
>
>
> https://insideevs.com/news/363439/tesla-gigafactory-3-progress-august-3-2019/
> <
> https://insideevs.com/news/363439/tesla-gigafactory-3-progress-august-3-2019/
> >
>
> It is pretty far along and last I heard, machinery is being installed
> inside:
>
> "Within five months, Tesla  should be
> producing and selling the Tesla Model 3 <
> https://insideevs.com/tesla/model-3/> from this factory.” (from the
> article).
>
> John
> John Blair
>
>
> > On Aug 17, 2019, at 11:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org > wrote:
> >
> > But then there's that factory that Tesla wants to build in Shanghai.  I
> > haven't heard much about that lately; anyone know where it stands?
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla conspiracy

[Michael Ross via EV]

"if he wants to fill up China with Teslas"

Everyone keeps forgetting, (maybe even EM hi'self) The goal is to fill up
the globe with EVs, not necessarily Teslas. He only makes money to make
more EVs. He doesn't even enjoy much of what he's got.and risks it all the
time.  Work as home. Glad its not me.

On Sun, Aug 18, 2019 at 12:18 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 18 Aug 2019 at 9:45, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > Diversification of politics. No question about acting up on Chinese
> > internet, can't do it.
>
> Yeah, Musk will have to fall in line, and keep his mouth and typing under
> control, if he wants to fill up China with Teslas.  So will GM, Ford, and
> Toyota, if they want to make money there.
>
> It's the proverbial 2-edged sword.  EVs are fairly likely to succeed in
> China because the government there wants them, to clean up their killer
> air,
> and you don't mess around with Xi Jinping.  But also, you don't mess
> around
> with Xi Jinping.  And big brother is watching.
>
> Musk and Barra had better get used to it; that seems to be the way the
> rest
> of the world is headed, too.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla conspiracy

[Michael Ross via EV]

Musk simply broke the rules when he falsely claimed to have a buyer.  The
SEC doesn't have to be in some conspiracy to react very strongly to that
kind of public commentary. When he said that the stock price went haywire
and some people lost money reacting to it. The SEC exists at least in part
to keep companies from blabbing in this way. It was a bad move on Musk's
part and the Tesla BOD needed emit some sort of corporate governance to
stop it.

That doesn't mean there aren't more closely kept shenanigans going on.

The shorting could be what is proposed, or it could simply be people who
like shorting as a way to make money using the controversy and volatility
of Telsa to try and make money.

I also get it that Musk must wish he could raise money without having to
submit quarterly guidance about Tesla financial activities. For projects
that are very experimental, and where profitability is counter to fully
committing to research and development, quarterly guidance ends up being an
impediment. It supports ownership by people who are not really committed to
the long game. That is what give Musk a rash. Add in sleep deprivation and
you get loose lips.

SpaceX is in far better situation because it is privately held. SpaceX
ownership has a better understanding, and gets  their updates up close and
personal. SpaceX can say, "leave us alone right now we are busy," whereas
Tesla has to follow the rules for publicly traded companies. With the SEC
as the watchdog.

-Mike

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 1:37 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> What evidence of this is there?
>
> - Mark
>

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Re: [EVDL] The Tesla conspiracy

[Michael Ross via EV]

"It also didn't hurt that Tesla had a billionaire EV enthusiast behind
them."

There's an understatement. Nothing was going to happen without Musk
and Straubel. And there was no billionair-ness when they started. Despite
the unlikeliness of success that still surrounds it, the most important
part and  certain success of Tesla is in a factory near Reno, Nevada. Let's
hope that doesn't disappear even if the EV business languishes.

I wish Tesla would go private somehow. The quarterly earnings business of
the stock market definitely handicaps projects that take a long time to pay
off. Besos makes it happen in house. He considers a 7 year development
timeline to be a protective moat, and it works. He can go full steam ahead
on pie-in-the-sky stuff and when they pull it off the lead time they have
against competition is insurmountable.

On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 2:16 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> Anyone who says "there's no stopping it" or "there's no going back" hasn't
> been paying attention to politics and business.  :-(
>
> Of course Tesla makes good cars; they got to start with a blank slate, not
> a
> century of hidebound tradition.  Is there any other production EV that's
> 100% new?   Maybe I've missed one, but AFAIK every other production EV
> uses
> at least some bits of previous ICEVs.  Most are really just EPTO (Electric
> PowerTrain Option) ICEVs -- that is, factory conversions.  The Nissan Leaf
> is mostly a Versa; its cousin the Renault Zoe is mostly a Clio.
>
> It also didn't hurt that Tesla had a billionaire EV enthusiast behind them.
>
> Of course the oil and auto companies don't want Tesla to succeed.  Of
> course
> they're going to do everything legal, and some things that aren't, to
> destroy Tesla.  (See Tucker for another example of their efforts.)
>  That's
> not a conspiracy, it's just business as usual.  It's what they do.
>
> A few comments about the production.  Has nobody ever told these guys
> about
> B-roll?  The constant jump cuts are really annoying and distracting.
> That's
> hack work.  Authenticity does not require incompetence, and incompetence
> does not imply authenticity.
>
> If they'd work from a script or at least  notes, instead of winging it,
> they
> might not need so many of those shoddy edits.
>
> Better yet, they should just WRITE something and post it.  This video clip
> has no reason to exist.  It's a waste of bandwidth.  It doesn't present
> anything visually that really helps get their message across.  I could
> have
> gotten the same information in 1/3 the time by  reading a blog post
> instead
> of sitting through their unprepared, unrehearsed prattle.
>
> At least they don't ramble as badly as Rickard does.  He's completely
> unwatchable.
>
> OK, I'll yield the soapbox to someone else now.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] ] *8/30-31 only: BuyNow $1.7k priced, Elf enclosed_e-trike SF-CA> needs battery

[Michael Ross via EV]

I own one and I have walked the hills in San Fran, you are not going to
like it there. You will bust a gut trying to go up, and wish it was a car
trying to slow and stop going down. I speak from experience as a long time
cyclist and one who commuted 25 miles each way on an ELF. You had better be
in shape if there is much distance or inclination.

I maintained mine myself, but finding experience mech help willing to work
on it will be non trivial. Earlier models had a power train that was
troublesome. If the motor is hub mounted rather than as a mid drive, then
there are durability issues. Not sure why you care about wheel diameter. It
is not worth worrying about that, just pump them up hard.

You buy it and you will find out why the price has taken a dive. Buy it for
yourself, not for a wife or SO.

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019, 4:16 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sunday, September 1, 2019, 12:02:39 AM PDT, Lawrence Rhodes <
> primobass...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I wish I could but the wife said it would have to come with divorce
> papers. Lawrence Rhodes It is a good deal.
> On Saturday, August 31, 2019, 1:09:03 PM PDT, 
> wrote:
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Mazda Does Not Believe In Large-kWh EV packs (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Well Mazda does make good Wankels and if you run them in their sweet spot
they get quite good mpg.  Wankels can be tiny and make lots of high speed
RPMs, no vibration at all. Maybe they are a good option for a hybrid where
it is really running on electrons out the wheels.

It is a hybrid then a small pack makes fine sense.


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On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 8:14 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 8 Sep 2019 at 14:21, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > Sound plays a part. Mazda is still deciding on the final audio mix, but
> the
> > TPV serves up a subtle soundtrack (partly amplified electric-motor
> noises,
> > partly generated) that grows stronger and more urgent as the torque
> increases.
>
> I have a better idea.  Why don't they just include a 6 year old boy with
> every TPV?  Then you can have him sit in the back seat and make brrr-brrr-
> vroom motor noises as you drive down the road in your not-so-quiet EV.
>
> I guess that fake automatic transmission creep wasn't sufficiently
> annoying.
>
> Who knew CM Kornbluth would turn out to be a prophet?
>
> Interesting.  Mazda thinks that drivers want more noise and less range in
> their EVs. They also think that it's a great idea to use a Wankel engine
> in
> a hybrid.  Great idea: Wankel engines are noted for smooth operation and
> for
> abysmal fuel efficiency.
>
> Is Mazda trying to commit corporate harikari?
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Re: [EVDL] li ion battery in cold weather

[Michael Ross via EV]

I am late to this discussion and have little to add, but this called me to
comment:

"I did a bit of research. Some authors talk about "intercalation", which
happens below freezing. Intercalation is when the anode becomes plated with
lithium ions instead of the ions being absorbed into the anode."

I don't know the authors referred to, but this is an incorrect definition
of intercalation. Intercalation is the nestling of Li ions between sheets
of graphene in the anode. It happens are all temperatures, not only below
freezing.
[Here is a hoard of images describing intercalation:  
http://tinyurl.com/y46elflk]

Intercalation has nothing to do with Li plating onto the anode.
Intercalation of the ions is what makes Li ion cells so much better than
PbSO4, and why there is little decrease in the state of charge if a cell
sits for a long time. The ions sort of drop into little pockets of the
hexagonal structure of carbon in graphene. It is a stable condition. I base
this on the Waterloo lecture by Dr. Jeff Dahn,and other reference material.
I am old enough to forget stuff, but I am pretty certain of this.

The decrease in cell function due to plating is purely mechanical. The
anode needs to be porous enough that ions pass from the electrolyte easily.
he plating of the Li on the SEI (solid electrolyte interphase) of the anode
simply blocks the passage of ions and reduces their ability to penetrate
the anode. It clogs the screen so to speak. This is not intercalation it is
simple plating.

Clotting up the SEI of the anode nd degredation of the electrolyte are
significant causes of cell dysfunction. the discharged cathode is highly
reactive and mess with the electrolyte. A lot of improvements in Li ion
cells is additives to make the electrolyte less easily damaged when the
cell is fully charged. Heat is also a factor when the cell is fully
charged. This is a good reason to mostly charge no more than 80% or 90% of
100% SOC. It keeps the positive electrode from becoming fully reactive and
starting to tear up the electrolyte.

Back the subject of cold performance. Part of the problem is simply
increased viscosity of the electrolyte leading to lower mobility of the
ions. I am not sure what is going on with electrolyte formulation, but
lower viscosity was one of the main paths of interest 5 years ago.

A little OT: some electrochemists are averse to talking about anodes and
cathodes preferring to refer to the positive and negative electrodes. This
is because the words anode and cathode apparently change meaning depending
on whether a cell is charging or discharging. Referring to positive and
negative electrodes eliminates confusion.

The purchase and application of the graphene has a major effect on cell
capacity. Definitely non-trivial. You don't just smear some carbon on a
sheet of copper. (You could make a Li ion cell in your garage, but it would
be limited by your ability to make a quality application of the graphene.)
Cell capacity 5 years ago was limited by the ability of the graphene to
make proper orientation in the manufactured electrode, and therefore the
availability of sites for intercalation iwas limited. A cell with
theoretically perfect graphene formation would be many times greater in
capacity.

Mike






On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 8:12 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> You are confusing electric current with a chemical process.
> Ohms law does not apply in a chemical process.
> Low temperatures slow the chemical reaction and charge transfer
> velocity, which leads to the decrease of ionic conductivity in the
> electrolytes and lithium-ion diffusion within the electrodes. Such decrease
> will result in the reduction of energy and power capability, and sometimes
> even performance failure.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:38 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone have a more in-depth explanation why li ion cells perform
> poorly in cold weather ? It's well known that your range goes down when the
> battery is cold. Lots of writers talk about the phenomena and advise you
> about it but fail to give any real explanations. I think this conversation
> may have come up a long while ago but it's hard to search for.
>
> I did a bit of research. Some authors talk about "intercalation", which
> happens below freezing. Intercalation is when the anode becomes plated with
> lithium ions instead of the ions being absorbed into the anode. Obviously,
> that permanently ruins the battery. So, this is irrelevant regarding poor
> range in cold weather.
>
> I did find one article that might be relevant, though.
>
>
> https://cen.acs.org/articles/96/i10/Rechargeable-battery-weathers-extreme-cold-conditions.html
>
> They claim the electrolyte becomes viscous, slowing down the ion movement.
> That's about all they say. But, I'll add my thoughts.
>
> If the electrolyte is viscous, then I suspect the voltage potential drops.
> Since watts-hours (energy) is V * Ah, you have less energy available,
> 

Re: [EVDL] Farm EVs & PV-powered auton e-bot planter, weeder swarms> ag e-transition= e-revolution

[Michael Ross via EV]

Bob, You are right that is a very interesting article.Thanks for bumping it
up in my mind.

http://www.impactlab.net/2019/08/03/electric-powered-farm-vehicles-set-to-revolutionise-agriculture-sector/


On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 8:23 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> When I actually looked at the article, I was impressed.  The point was that
> there are all kinds of all-field applications that do not require the big
> behemoth tractor, but the current farmer still drives the big monster
> tractor when a robot with wheels not much bigger than fat bike tires can do
> a lot of the weeding, seeding, and inspection and trimming and whatever
> ALl without needing an air conditioned cab and driver
>
> That was a real eye opener.  Bob
>
>
> --
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Farm EVs & PV-powered auton e-bot planter, weeder swarms> ag e-transition= e-revolution

[Michael Ross via EV]

We already do battery swaps with fork lifts -  like forever.

Tesla demo'd a swap that was the same time as half a tank fill up on a car.

Seems like the day long use is surmountable.


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On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 2:16 PM Jan Steinman via EV 
wrote:

> On 2019-08-04, at 03:07, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> >
> > One of the challenges facing
> > development of electric farm vehicles is the need for sufficient stored
> > energy to run a large vehicle for a full day on a single charge.
>
> There's the rub, isn't it? The article doesn't really address that at all.
>
> Fully electric agriculture is going to be a tough nut to crack. Sure,
> "gators" and light-duty equipment might go electric, but pulling a
> six-bottom plough through clay soil for twelve hours? Ain't gonna happen in
> MY lifetime!
>
> Jan
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar off grid with an EV? (DC AC/heatpumps and waterheating)

[Michael Ross via EV]

There was a time when solar thermal and its 70% efficiency made sense,
because PV cost too much.  But that time has passed.

I think that PV is now better than solar thermal. There are a lot of hidden
costs and difficulties putting a thermal collector on one's roof. There is
a bunch of piping that not everyone wants to be obvious or cobbled looking.
You have to poke holes into your attic and elsewhere. It needs to be
insulated and to not break in the winter.  You have to have pumps and
valves and drains. You need a special water heater, and it needs electric
backup anyway. You have to own ladders and be able to work safely with
them. You have to be more than just a little handy. There are HOA and
building quality requirements for proper design and installation. It takes
up space where PV could go.

Or you can mount a few relativity inexpensive arrays and wire them up.
There is of course where to put the wire. Much easier to do a neat and tidy
job, no leaks through the roof, no fancy heater with a heat exchanger.

The business of building and installing solar thermal collectors is just
about done in because of the constantly falling cost of PV.  Solar thermal
ends up more complicated, expensive, and has more opportunity for error.

I thought Robert's solutions were attractive. I provided certified and
custom testing for solar thermal collectors for 5 years. I am handy enough,
but I would go with PV, not thermal. Far too much trouble the thermal
business.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:51 PM Jan Steinman via EV 
wrote:

> > From: Robert Bruninga 
> >
> > … using about 4 Solar panels
> > for the bottom coil in a water heater are a good  idea.  You need hot
> water
> > every day, and so this gives you 100% effectiveness of these 4 or so
> > panels.
>
> Seems like a horribly inefficient way of heating water!
>
> Direct solar hot water is a much better use of resources and solar energy.
> Someone who's handy can easily cobble one up out of copper tubing, plywood,
> glass, and some flat-black spray paint.
>
> Jan
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Tesla drops cheapest models prices (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Dave,

You seem to have a strong urge to rag on Tesla and Musk whenever you can.
That seems unwarranted. They have done a lot in an incredibly difficult
industrial environment, working at something no one believed possible, and
actually have a lot of success, though they may yet fail. We will all
benefit from their efforts. They tried to implement new ideas that were
worth trying.  Musk and all the engineers and other employees deserve
praise, regardless if Musk acts stupid at times. Maybe you don't like the
PT Barnum stuff, but that too was helpful and perhaps necessary.


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On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 10:21 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 21 Jul 2019 at 8:35, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > Tesla also lowered the starting price of its mass-market Model 3 to
> $38,990
>
> Uh ... so what  happened to that $30k electric car we heard Musk talk
> about
> for all those years?  It seems to have tipped off the road into the same
> ditch as the electric Chevette that GM promised us in 1978.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] EVangel-About: ?Do I really want to be a Cyberpunk?

[Michael Ross via EV]

The CyberPickup might actually be very functional. Not easy to tell
because it is visually incomparable.

There are a lot of opportunities for the truck that electrification will
open up. Torque will be enormous. It will be batshit crazy fast compared to
contemporary PUs.  It will have all the cool bells and whistles that are
still lacking in other makes. It may evan be a better off road machine with
better weigh distribution and torque control.

On the hauling side I see a lot of pretty PUs pulling trailers to haul the
goods, since there is a big cab and a small bed. So that idea is already a
success in the real world.

Personally, I find the appearance off putting, but I could get over it if
it functions well. (After all I have a love affair with the early
model Scion xBs.)

It is a curious thing how Americans buy autos that are really for more
expensive and rich in gew-gaws than seems reasonable.  They would rather
drive a $40K car with a 7 year mortgage on it than retire with the funds to
avoid penury. On that basis, I am sure a decent number of first adopters
are out there willing to try it out. And if it works well, it will sell
enough to get another better interaction.

I am grateful that Musk is willing to have a whack at new things.

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 1:38 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > I suspect that the typical truck buyer probably WILL want
> > something that looks more like the traditional pickup, which as you
> > say, hasn't really changed much in 70+ years.
>
> That's my guess as well. It looks more like a sports car styled to look
> like a pickup, rather than a real truck. It reminds me of the old Chevy
> El Camino or Ford El Ranchero (cars with a small pickup bed in the back).
>
> Tesla may find a market for it; but it probably won't be the sort of
> people that buy normal pickup trucks.
>
> In a way, it might be a missed opportunity. The automaker pickups have
> also strayed away from the traditional "work truck" pickup, in favor of
> luxury 4-passenger car-like vehicles that happen to have a small bed in
> back. Most of them can't carry a 4x8 sheet of plywood, either.
>
> Lee
>
> --
> ICEs have the same problem as lightbulbs. Why innovate and make
> better ones when the current ones burn out often enough to keep
> you in business? -- Hunter Cressall
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Deaf Scooter and Palmdale Sheriff Coal Rolled. Consequences!

[Michael Ross via EV]

That rumor could go viral and I would like it.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 1:46 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Sounds doubtful. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a law that would
> apply. But a $25K fine, vehicle crushed, license suspended sound highly
> exaggerated.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
> Sent: 05-Mar-20 9:28:37 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Deaf Scooter and Palmdale Sheriff Coal Rolled.
> Consequences!
>
> >  My friend Deafscooter(Craig Uydea) Told me this story. He and a Sheriff
> on bike were coal rolled. The Sheriff radioed a unit. The driver arrested.
> Vehicle impounded. Round guilty. $25,000 fine. Vehicle crushed. License
> suspended. Can anyone confirm this or any other incidents similar to this?
> Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Cheapest off grid storage but can it be used to make electricity.

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is an inspired and compulsive goal to be off grid.

He is not accounting for labor and the enormous complication to his home.
He is not accounting for the far greater value of his time. What he is
doing to his house will never be appreciated when he tries to sell it and
move, so he is anchored to his home. Good or bad? I can't say. I put in
5.6kW of PV that will out live me by decades, so we all have a personal
choices that don't make sense to many other people.

While solar thermal (he never addressed the actual collector system or
accounted for ist cost) is 70% efficient, it is lower quality energy (from
an entropic POV)  than solar PV and harder to actually apply in the home.
Pumps, piping, wiring, mixing valves. Is he on a municipal water supply, or
a self powered well system? Anyway, solar thermal is very troublesome to
build and maintain versus a grid tied PV system. You could buy PV and use
resistance heaters and it might be a good trade off compared to thermal,
provided you can actually site the PV well. This is why the solar thermal
business is all but dead these days. You can DIY it, but that is about the
only way.

He is paying $10/kwh (if you accept his very hazy estimates for a number of
things) where he can probably buy power for $0.20 / kwh. It is hard to see
what the money side of this really looks like.  If he actually has a grid,
then this is extravagant.



On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 2:58 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> Very interesting project with the math explained. Lawrence Rhodes
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryJmtItfaXQ
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] dink GM hummer as pu e-truck = ( :dumb: ... ?vaporware?)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Typo in the last sentence. Should have read:

"Could it someday become a symbol of a new, more sustainable erection?"

On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 9:38 PM brucedp5 via EV  wrote:

>
>
>  (?vaporware? as -GM pr- , automakers @their wasteful-worst)
>
> https://chargedevs.com/newswire/hummer-to-be-reborn-as-gm-electric-pickup-truck/
> Hummer to be reborn as GM electric pickup truck
> January 11, 2020  Charles Morris; WSJ
>
> [image
>
> https://468y981o84o43v2wo2600a0gcj-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Hummer-AdobeStock_.jpeg
>  ice
> ]
>
> We’ve often accused the legacy automakers of lacking imagination, but now
> we
> see that at least someone at GM has a sense of irony. The company’s first
> announced electric pickup truck will be called a Hummer.
>
> GM will not be reviving the Hummer make, which choked to death in 2010, but
> will sell the Hummer pickup under the GMC brand.
>
> The Wall Street Journal reports that the e-Hummer “is likely to be sold in
> small volumes as a rugged, jeep-like pickup truck for off-road
> enthusiasts,”
> according to “people briefed on the strategy.” It’s expected to go on sale
> by early 2022, and will be among the first of several large electric SUVs
> and pickup trucks from GM.
>
> GM will build this beast, and other electric trucks, at its
> Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant, which was marked for closure before the
> company announced plans for a $3-billion renovation in October.
>
> WSJ says GM plans to run an ad for the new irony-mobile during next month’s
> Super Bowl.
>
> Aside from the headline-grabbing comedic aspects of the announcement, this
> is a milestone because it represents a 180-degree turnaround for GM. Until
> recently, most electric offerings from non-Tesla brands have been small,
> practical cars, which, as any marketer will tell you, hold little appeal
> for
> US buyers. Now GM is going to electrify the biggest and baddest surrogate
> sex organ in the auto industry. No specs have been announced, but it’s safe
> to assume that the e-Hummer will boast plenty of horsepower and towing
> capacity.
>
> A Sierra Club official once said the Hummer “embodied the worst impulses of
> the American auto industry.” ...
> [© chargedevs.com]
>
>
>
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/10/gm-buys-super-bowl-air-time-to-resurrect-an-all-electric-version-of-the-hummer-sources-say.html
> GM buys Super Bowl airtime to resurrect an all-electric version of the
> Hummer, sources say
> 2020/01/10  GM is resurrecting the Hummer, buying Super Bowl airtime to
> debut an all-electric pickup version of its gas-guzzling ... General Motors
> is resurrecting the Hummer as an all-electric pickup ...
>
> https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/46593858-Hummer-Iconic-Brands-That-Disappeared-CNBC.jpg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
>  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is important to figure out what the #cycles means to you personally.
1000 cycles is a lot even daily - for some people.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 2:39 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> Cycle Life (retaining 70% capacity) at 20A Discharge, 100% DOD: >1,000
> cycles
>
> This tells me you don’t want to discharge at 50A if at 20A you are down
> 30% capacity in 1000 cycles.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 16, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/hayward-a-battery-cells-33v-2500-mah/7098505376.html
> >
> > Are these batteries a wise purchase? I am building it for a 40 amp 72v
> controller.  This would be my first lithium build. I think I could bet by
> with one string of 21 but would 2 or three strings be wiser? I don't need
> the range just hill climbing.  Since the batteries can put out 50 amps
> continous why spend more money unless the pack would last longer or be more
> durable. Just brainstorming here. What BMS etc.?  Thanks Lawrence
> Rhodes...should I make a spot welder? Doesn't seem too hard.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] .tw Tesla-3 crashes, over-turns (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Mmm, good idea with the water.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 5:54 AM evln via EV  wrote:

>
>
> https://taiwanenglishnews.com/tesla-catches-fire-after-crash-driver-dies/
> Tesla catches fire after crash: driver dies
> April 3, 2020  A Tesla Model 3 caught fire after hitting a traffic island
> and overturning in Taoyuan ... After stabilizing the main fire, the lithium
> ion batteries continued to burn ...
>
> https://i1.wp.com/taiwanenglishnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/tesla-on-fire.jpg
> ...
> https://youtu.be/VLXTTejFbVU
>
>
> +
>
> https://www.thestar.com.my/news/regional/2020/04/16/tesla-opens-online-store-on-alibaba039s-tmall
> Tesla opens online store on Alibaba's Tmall
> 16 Apr 2020  US electric car company Tesla announced that it opened its
> first online flagship store on China's leading e-commerce platform
> Tmall.com
> ... Consumers can purchase auto parts and charging services as well as make
> test drive reservations at the online store ...
> https://apicms.thestar.com.my/uploads/images/2020/04/16/645889.jpg
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

As shown by the research at Dalhousie, 16000 cycles is meaningless if the
conditions are watered down.
That kind of cycle count is falsely impressive, and a huge waste of time
and resources.

Are there any useful testing standards becoming a tradition? As in
standards that actually stress the cells in some way other than cycle count?

Part of Tesla's success with cell life comes from actually breaking cells
and trying to make them better.

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On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 6:19 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> The A123 systems 26650 cylindrical cells have a _huge_ cycle life.
>
> Way over 5000 cycles at a 1C rate. 100% SOC discharge. (They have cycled
> a 26650 cell more than 16,000 times and still have greater than 50%
> capacity.)
>
> The main trouble with higher rates is the elevated cell temperature
> while testing. Higher rates => higher temperature => shorter life span.
> The issue becomes entangled with calendar life. Calendar life is a steep
> function of temperature. Exponential, actually.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 4/17/2020 9:09 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > Then you run up against an insignificant sample size. Can you get specs
> and
> > trust them? When I was trying to sort this out in the 2014 time frame,
> > testing was ALL crap. You couldn't believe much of anything. Partly
> > because no one really know how to test well, and many did not want to
> know.
> > The tradition was to run a lot of cycles at levels that caused no damage
> at
> > all.
> >
> > I sort of forget the original query, isn't this about A123? Prismatics?
> > Those are pouch cells. I have developed a cognitive bias against that
> form.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <
> http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail
> >
> > Virus-free.
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> >
> > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:59 PM paul dove  wrote:
> >
> >> Good point but you don't know how much faster it will degrade at 50
> amps.
> >>
> >> 75% in 800, 500, 200 cycles, etc.
> >>
> >> I would buy one and test it first.
> >>
> >> On Thursday, April 16, 2020, 1:54:04 PM CDT, Michael Ross via EV <
> >> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> It is important to figure out what the #cycles means to you personally.
> >> 1000 cycles is a lot even daily - for some people.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 2:39 PM paul dove via EV 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Cycle Life (retaining 70% capacity) at 20A Discharge, 100% DOD: >1,000
> >>> cycles
> >>>
> >>> This tells me you don’t want to discharge at 50A if at 20A you are down
> >>> 30% capacity in 1000 cycles.
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Then you run up against an insignificant sample size. Can you get specs and
trust them? When I was trying to sort this out in the 2014 time frame,
testing was ALL crap. You couldn't believe much of anything. Partly
because no one really know how to test well, and many did not want to know.
The tradition was to run a lot of cycles at levels that caused no damage at
all.

I sort of forget the original query, isn't this about A123? Prismatics?
Those are pouch cells. I have developed a cognitive bias against that form.




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On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 4:59 PM paul dove  wrote:

> Good point but you don't know how much faster it will degrade at 50 amps.
>
> 75% in 800, 500, 200 cycles, etc.
>
> I would buy one and test it first.
>
> On Thursday, April 16, 2020, 1:54:04 PM CDT, Michael Ross via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>
> It is important to figure out what the #cycles means to you personally.
> 1000 cycles is a lot even daily - for some people.
>
> On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 2:39 PM paul dove via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Cycle Life (retaining 70% capacity) at 20A Discharge, 100% DOD: >1,000
> > cycles
> >
> > This tells me you don’t want to discharge at 50A if at 20A you are down
> > 30% capacity in 1000 cycles.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Apr 16, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  >
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> >
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/ele/d/hayward-a-battery-cells-33v-2500-mah/7098505376.html
> > >
> > > Are these batteries a wise purchase? I am building it for a 40 amp 72v
> > controller.  This would be my first lithium build. I think I could bet by
> > with one string of 21 but would 2 or three strings be wiser? I don't need
> > the range just hill climbing.  Since the batteries can put out 50 amps
> > continous why spend more money unless the pack would last longer or be
> more
> > durable. Just brainstorming here. What BMS etc.?  Thanks Lawrence
> > Rhodes...should I make a spot welder? Doesn't seem too hard.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

My comments were really only in the context of EV application.

The most knowledgeable people in a particular tech space are usually also
the ones that have the most to gain. Its a common problem. I had a
job where a new-ish product was being made that did not fit the ASTM
standards for the application. Of course the people on that committee had
no interest in supporting a different, not necessarily better competitor.
My sense is that had the product actually been noticeably better there
would have been even lower viscosity in the standard adjusting process.

There needs to be a customer group pushing ahead. That means they have to
read the papers, make the contacts with the doers, and develop a fuller
understanding of the arising technologies and the spectrum of current cell
technologies. Protectiion of IP always gets in the way of doing this stull
proactively.

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 3:11 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> > 1C huh?  That is not stressful at all and only a truly sh#t cell would
> > have much trouble with that.
>
> Ah, but that is heavily dependent on the kind of cell you are testing.
> There are many types of cells for which a 1C rate is a relatively fast
> discharge.
>
> Also, 1C is a pretty reasonable rate for a lot of applications; things
> that you want to work for about an hour on a charge. Even some EVs are
> close to this; a golf cart or EV with a range under 100 miles discharges
> its batteries at about this rate. Many things like phones and laptops
> have even lower discharge rates.
>
> We need standards, so there are at least *some* benchmarks to use as a
> basis to compare claims. Without them, all we have are manufacturer's
> claims, which are mostly invented by Marketing.
>
> > You said: "You need some test that is uniform for all manufacturers."
> >
> > I must disagree. This is the thinking that has us many decades along the
> > way with no good way to compare battery cells.
>
> On the contrary. We *have* had standard comparison tests for batteries
> for many decades. They are well established for most types of
> batteries... except lithium. It's the "new kid on the block", and so
> far, the manufacturers haven't seen fit to play by the rules.
>
> > The problem is you can't really compare batteries based on some simple
> > criteria. If you dig into the Dalhousie research, you can see that the
> more
> > complete and useful picture has a lot of detail. Medtronic and Tesla are
> > two for the larger contributors to proprietary research. Both wanted to
> do
> > a lot more than simply compete with existing tech.
>
> Of course! That's always been true. Anyone who really cares about
> battery performance will do their own testing, tailored to their
> specific requirements. And they won't share that data with competitors!
>
> But we still need standard testing for "the rest of us". Individuals and
> small manufacturers need *some* way to compare cells, and pick the ones
> that are at least reasonable for their applications.
>
> > I think maybe the testing protocols should be developed with a lot less
> > input from the manufacturers. Fox guarding the henhouse and all that.
>
> Yes. In general, earlier battery standard tests were devised by people
> like BCI (Battery Council International). It was a consortium funded by
> battery *users*, to combat the rampant deception in battery manufacturer
> specifications.
>
> Lee Hart
> --
> Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all
> our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory,
> and a sterner sense of justice than we do. -- Wendell Berry
> --
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Re: [EVDL] Are these A123 batteries a wise purchase?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Hi Bill,
Thanks for the commnet. I have no connection with testing the last 5 years
so I was wondering. You probably have more reason to care about this
than almost anyone. 1C huh?  That is not stressful at all and only are
truly sh#t cell would have much trouble with that.

Isn't it lovely that everyone settled on a standard of testing that is hard
to fail, and informs almost nothing about the quality of design or
manufacture.

You said: "You need some test that is uniform for all manufacturers."

I must disagree. This is the thinking that has us many decades along the
way with no good way to compare battery cells.
We need to note this for what it is, a bad paradigm.

The problem is you can't really compare batteries based on some simple
criteria. If you dig into the Dalhousie research, you can see that the more
complete and useful picture has a lot of detail. Medtronic and Tesla are
two for the larger contributors to proprietary research. Both wanted to do
a lot more than simply compete with existing tech. Medtronic wanted cells
you can implant in a human body and have it do work for decades without
failure. Tesla the same, but implant them in automobiles. Neither was
really selling the cells *per** se*. Instead they were trying to make a
higher order design better.

I think maybe the testing protocols should be developed with a lot less
input from the manufacturers. Fox guarding the henhouse and all that.

Mike



On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 9:04 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> This 1C test is the standard test that allows inter-comparison of cells
> from brand to brand.



> You need some sort of a test under standard
> conditions, for different size cells, for different voltage cells, etc.
> * You need some test that is uniform for all manufacturers.* This is the
> test everyone settled on.

SNIP



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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

The occurrence of OSHA violations is very dependent on the state of the
occurrences. In North Carolina we have about 10 million people, 100
counties, and 11 inspectors. You are pretty certain never to see an
inspector here unless someone dies on the job.

On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 11:10 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Good piece.
>
> There is real danger in spouting off with statistics that don’t tell an
> accurate story.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On May 11, 2020, at 10:52 AM, paul dove via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> >  I posted a link with the facts
> >
> >>On Monday, May 11, 2020, 10:19:10 AM CDT, Peri Hartman via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes, I completely agree with Lee on the "free pass" statement. It's
> >> really a double standard to oppose, say, the oil industry and then give
> >> Tesla a free pass just because you happen to support some aspect of the
> >> company.
> >>
> >> Peri
> >>
> >> << Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ?
> >> https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >>
> >> -- Original Message --
> >> From: "Lee Hart via EV" 
> >> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> >> Cc: "Lee Hart" 
> >> Sent: 11-May-20 8:15:03 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum
> >>
> >>> paul dove via EV wrote:
> >>> 54 violations in 5 years does not constitute not caring about
> >>> employees.
> >>
> >> No; by itself, that may or may not be unusual. But David Roden said
> >> Tesla had 3 times as many OSHA violations as Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Kia,
> >> and Mercedes all put together. *That* is worrisome.
> >>
> >> When you see the tip of an iceberg, it's reasonable to assume that the
> >> rest of it is there, too!
> >>
> >>> I have yet to figure out why you hate Tesla. They are made in the US.
> >>> They are the best and safest car on the market. They are electric.
> >>> Yet you bad mouth them every chance you get.
> >>
> >> First, leave out the Ad Hominem attacks. Stick to the facts, and skip
> the "insult the messenger" stuff.
> >>
> >> Second, there is no question that Tesla makes great cars. But that does
> not give them a "free pass" in their behavior. They still have to follow
> the rules.
> >>
> >> You cannot say, "So-and-so is a great football star; so it doesn't
> matter if he beats his wife".
> >>
> >> Lee Hart
> >> -- When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it
> >> define you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
> >> -- Theodor Seuss Geisel
> >> --
> >> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, http://www.sunrise-ev.com
> >> ___
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> >>
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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

It is a classically human response to be continually biased, and not taking
in new information, or considering new  knowledge structures when a person
has decided on a position and defended it publically, and with energy. The
trick is to know that, to seek nonconforming information, and synthesize
it. You clearly don't like Musk, but he is capable of more than you
believe. I believe.

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 11:51 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 10 May 2020 at 9:36, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > I am betting his approach is to try to forge ahead and at the same time
> > try to make it safe for his employees.
>
> You may know something that I don't, but that's not a bet I'd make.  Tesla
> doesn't run a safe shop.  From 2014 to 2018, they had 3 times as many OSHA
> violations as Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Kia, and Mercedes all put together.
>
> That, and his stressful work culture, suggests to me that Musk considers
> his
> assembly workers disposable.  That seems literally true now that he's hot
> to
> get them back to work and passing around a fatal disease.
>
> > Tantrum? That is just a biased, provocative, and unhelpful way to view
> > it.
>
> How else would you describe Musk's twitter-fits?  He sounds like a
> petulant
> 4th-grader: if California won't play his way, he's going to take his toys
> and go home to Texas.
>
> That's going to be a pretty expensive snit, if he carries it out.  I don't
> see how Tesla can afford it.
>
> They can't seem to stay profitable, and their main market, the US, is
> turning EV-unfriendly.  Their US tax credit is done. A lot of their
> revenue
> comes from other automakers buying their emissions credits.  What happens
> as
> EU and Asian automakers increase their own EV production, and have less
> need
> for those credits?  They seem to be betting on China, and that might be
> smart, but they haven't made much sales headway in Europe.
>
> Don't get me wrong here.  Musk is a genius and his company designs and
> builds outstanding vehicles that happen to be EVs.  But his erratic
> behavior
> is driving off his executive talent and giving investors headaches.
>
> More than that, it's having an effect on folks likely to buy EVs -
> intelligent, educated tech people.  Over the years I've watched as their
> comments about Musk and Tesla have gone from admiring and interested to
> appalled and repelled. That's not the way you make your company look like
> a
> good corporate citizen.
>
> If Musk wants to reverse that trend, I think he needs to chill a little,
> back off the ranting, and demonstrate more concern for his employees.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

Profit is a straw man. Just look at Netflix. Musk's goal is making as many
EVs as possible, he would go broke doing it, sell his house and start over
if it came to that. Not normal, but a recipe for success. It is a shame he
ever went public, but maybe it made sense at the time. SpaceX-  it was
clear that the public equity model would never work.

Applying the analysis of profit to companies like Netflix and Tesla is just
poor thinking. It requires different metrics, because the goal is not to
make profit, but to expand. Fast.

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 11:51 AM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 10 May 2020 at 9:36, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > I am betting his approach is to try to forge ahead and at the same time
> > try to make it safe for his employees.
>
> You may know something that I don't, but that's not a bet I'd make.  Tesla
> doesn't run a safe shop.  From 2014 to 2018, they had 3 times as many OSHA
> violations as Nissan, Toyota, Ford, Kia, and Mercedes all put together.
>
> That, and his stressful work culture, suggests to me that Musk considers
> his
> assembly workers disposable.  That seems literally true now that he's hot
> to
> get them back to work and passing around a fatal disease.
>
> > Tantrum? That is just a biased, provocative, and unhelpful way to view
> > it.
>
> How else would you describe Musk's twitter-fits?  He sounds like a
> petulant
> 4th-grader: if California won't play his way, he's going to take his toys
> and go home to Texas.
>
> That's going to be a pretty expensive snit, if he carries it out.  I don't
> see how Tesla can afford it.
>
> They can't seem to stay profitable, and their main market, the US, is
> turning EV-unfriendly.  Their US tax credit is done. A lot of their
> revenue
> comes from other automakers buying their emissions credits.  What happens
> as
> EU and Asian automakers increase their own EV production, and have less
> need
> for those credits?  They seem to be betting on China, and that might be
> smart, but they haven't made much sales headway in Europe.
>
> Don't get me wrong here.  Musk is a genius and his company designs and
> builds outstanding vehicles that happen to be EVs.  But his erratic
> behavior
> is driving off his executive talent and giving investors headaches.
>
> More than that, it's having an effect on folks likely to buy EVs -
> intelligent, educated tech people.  Over the years I've watched as their
> comments about Musk and Tesla have gone from admiring and interested to
> appalled and repelled. That's not the way you make your company look like
> a
> good corporate citizen.
>
> If Musk wants to reverse that trend, I think he needs to chill a little,
> back off the ranting, and demonstrate more concern for his employees.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
> ___
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> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

-- 
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Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

I promise this is not OT. Though What Musk does with his businesses could
be considered such.

As an at risk, well educated, and following the science closely person I
get it that we need to be very strict to reduce sickness and death from the
novel coronavirus. This is a very tricky one since virus shedding starts
days before any harsh symptoms begin, and asymptomatic carriers are
shedding a lot of virus, for days with no way to know they are. Then the
main method of transmission is simply talking.

Where I live, in North Carolina we are following a very dysfunctional
protocol, trying very hard to keep this from turning out as well as it did
in Korea, for instance. We don't do contact tracing, we don't do testing,
most people don't wear masks, or stand back from others except when
peer behavior makes it plain that a location is trying to do the best
possible. So we are paying the price of lots of people not working, kids at
home all the time, etc. but getting no real benefit from it. We are looking
at dragging this pandemic out for a couple of years.

It is pretty clear that we have constructed a situation where we cannot
sustain what needs to be done that will make this turn out well. People are
going back to work here at the first hint of relaxing official rules, and
they are acting as if this is not a highly contagious disease that is going
to kill a lot of people or maim a bunch that recover. And I get it. We
can't do this with comprehensive isolation and lockdown. But, we are not
doing the other things we must do, either.

In this context, Musk is watching opportunity just dissolve into thin air.
I am betting his approach is to try to forge ahead and at the same time try
to make it safe for his employees. He will get rid of the folks that can't
help him do it (in this case the government of CA).  Who knows maybe he
will sequester a bunch of Texans and really hit a home run. Check their
temperatures regularly, and do real contact tracing. See to their well
being if they get sick, and so on. He can't afford to kill off the skilled
workforce he has assembled, you can bet he knows that. They are problem
solvers and this could be the sharp end of the the stick they decided is
necessary. It is a pickle. Tantrum? That is just a biased, provocative, and
unhelpful way to view it.

California may not be constitutionally able to let him try. He is trying to
force their hand though because it will be enormously expensive to
relocate. Either way if he can keep rolling, safely, making the best EVs on
the planet, it will be better for everyone.

I am open to the idea that Musk may be seeking a suboptimal, but best case
solution here. I think suboptimal is the best we can do right now.

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 8:54 AM paul dove via EV  wrote:

> Glad someone is speaking up
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On May 10, 2020, at 2:40 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
> >
> > 
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/10/elon-musk-threatens-to-move-
> > tesla-hq-out-of-california-over-covid-19-restrictions
> >
> > Elon Musk threatens to move Tesla HQ out of California over Covid-19
> > restrictions
> >
> > Reuters
> > Published on Sat 9 May 2020 22.25 EDT
> >
> > Tesla is suing local authorities in California as the electric carmaker
> > pushes to reopen its factory there and chief executive Elon Musk
> threatens
> > to move the company´s headquarters to Texas or Nevada.
> >
> > Musk has been pushing to reopen Tesla´s Fremont, California, factory
> after
> > Alameda County´s health department said the carmaker must not reopen
> because
> > local lockdown measures to curb the spread of the coronavirus remain in
> > effect.
> >
> > Tesla filed a lawsuit against the county on Saturday, calling the
> continued
> > restrictions a "power-grab" by the county since California´s governor
> had
> > said on Thursday that manufacturers in the state would be allowed to
> reopen.
> > The company said Alameda was going against the federal and California
> > constitutions, as well as defying the governor´s order, in the lawsuit
> filed
> > in San Francisco federal court.
> >
> > Alameda County, where the Fremont factory is located, is scheduled to
> remain
> > shut until the end of May, with only essential businesses allowed to
> reopen.
> > County officials did not immediately respond to a request for comment on
> the
> > lawsuit.
> >
> > The outspoken Musk also took to Twitter on Saturday to complain and
> > threatened to leave the state.  "If we even retain Fremont manufacturing
> > activity at all, it will be dependent on how Tesla is treated in the
> > future," he tweeted. The San Francisco Bay area facility is currently
> > Tesla´s only US vehicle factory.
> >
> >[Tweet] "Frankly, this is the final straw. Tesla will now move its HQ
> > and future programs to Texas/Nevada immediately. If we even retain
> Fremont
> > manufacturing activity at all, it will be dependen on how Tesla is
> treated
> > in 

Re: [EVDL] Musk throws another tantrum

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think the Nevada site may have needed less protection from environmental
effects of ths factory. That is a good idea. Build where the impact is
lower. CA says it is too impactful, Nevada says this is not too impactful.
Learn more and then respond. Can we afford it? Then let's do it. Why does
this indicate nefarious motivation? This is not a rhetorical inquiry. Is
there any evidence of unwholesome intent - building in a better location?
Or is it just a better solution?

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 9:54 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Musk did not want to comply with state environmental planning and
> disclosure requirements, and tried to get our legislature to exempt him.
> When that didn’t work, he build his battery factory in Nevada, where they
> have lax requirements.
>
> Pattern and practice, though ironic.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On May 10, 2020, at 4:01 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> >> On 5/10/20 11:38 AM, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
> >> It is a classically human response to be continually biased, and not
> taking
> >> in new information, or considering new  knowledge structures when a
> person
> >> has decided on a position and defended it publically, and with energy.
> The
> >> trick is to know that, to seek nonconforming information, and synthesize
> >> it. You clearly don't like Musk, but he is capable of more than you
> >> believe. I believe.
> >
> > I believe proof of Tesla expertise has been submitted to us.  I, too, am
> puzzled by persistent Tesla negativity.  Especially when suspicion in the
> past has been proven groundless so many times.   Well. it IS a free
> country.  With freedom of speech.
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html
> > INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
>
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>
>

-- 
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(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fluoride-ion cell packs bigger punch than lithium-ion

[Michael Ross via EV]

I think Toyota is seriously stodgy, but it is not stupid to go with a
proven winner. They have a selling point about range and availability of
refueling options, for now at least. They are choosing to follow
cultural norms that are passing, but not past. It is probably good
business, or at least they can make enough of a case for what they do
internally. I think it is risky for them, but not very and not for a
decade. A half million annually, cars from Tesla, and a fraction more from
everyone else still doesn't scratch the surface.

Total agreement on the battery side. The best engineering of batteries is
at Tesla. That is who to watch, and who to invest in.

On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 4:43 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> Sigh.  I think it's Lee Hart who classifies phonies as "liars, damned
> liars,
> and battery salesmen."
>
> It's going to be a LONG time before a flouride ion battery is in our EVs,
> if
> it ever happens at all.
>
> https://www.batterypoweronline.com/news/what-the-fluoride-ion-battery-
> breakthrough-really-means/
> 
>
> https://v.gd/tmkxtN
>
> I'm reminded a little of the sodium sulfur battery that Ford touted in the
> late 1960s.
>
> So Toyota is working on it.  That's not much of an endorsement.  From what
> I
> can see, Toyota still doesn't want to make real EVs; they just want to
> keep
> building their hybrids until they're selling 20 of them per year.  It's no
> surprise that they keep wasting their R time and money on fuel cells and
> dead end woo-woo batteries.  Of course Kyoto University is happy to accept
> some of that money.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which
>  dictatorships are made.
>
>   -- Franklin Delano Roosevelt
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 95, Issue 18

[Michael Ross via EV]

I thought Solarcities had US factories. And Sunpower. I haven't kept up so
I could be spinning old news.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2020, 7:17 PM Offgrid Systems via EV 
wrote:

> "I couldn't name a single U.S producer of PV
>
> modules, and the BOS equipment is mostly assembled in China as well."
>
> Only one of the best PV modules in the world. Silfab, Bellingham Wa, USA
> and Ontario (I think) Canada. Now shipping 330W monocrystaline at .50/W
> available all day from Platt Electric.
>
> Also Outback Power and Midnite assemble most of their product here in
> the USA.
>
> Wa state companies...all of them!
>
> --
> Kind regards,
>
> Tim Economu
> Offgrid Systems LLC
>
>
> On 9/18/2020 1:08 PM, ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org wrote:
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:39:49 -0700
> > From: "Mr. Sharkey"
> > To:ev@lists.evdl.org
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Big Oil?s green makeover
> > Message-ID:
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> >
> >   > Wouldn't you expect that these large oil companies would have
> >   > the ability to weather industry downturns, improve the
> >   > technology, and remain around to service warranties, like Siemens,
> >   > as opposed to a smaller company?
> >
> > Well, sure, that would be the expectation, but in their prior
> > exploits in PV, they turned around and sold off the subsidiary when
> > the market for those products got soft and the price point started
> > dropping. That's my point, they aren't dedicated to the principle,
> > only the profits. Even Siemens got out.
> >
> > Essentially 100% of photovoltaic production is from China these days.
> > Without research, I couldn't name a single U.S producer of PV
> > modules, and the BOS equipment is mostly assembled in China as well.
> > What will BO (Big Oil) do when the profit drains away from the
> > charging infrastructure? Maybe it won't, then they will own more of
> > the transportation fueling market. Is that a good thing? IDK, I
> > charge at home with power produced with those Siemens PV's...
>
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Re: [EVDL] 9 professional cyclists provide tiny charge2 Tesla-X EV (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

Jeez what waste of time. A little arithmetic yields the same answer. Most
of us can produce about 125 watts with our leg muscles for continuously for
an hour.  I have heard that the inglorious Lance Armstrong could maintain
750 watt (a horsepower)for a while. It is probably generous to say those
women can maintain 333 watt /hour. So then 9 cyclists can make 3KW/hr.
Yeah, it is gonna take a long time to charge an EV.

It is really cool how efficient a human is.



Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 11:39 PM evln via EV  wrote:

>
>
> Watch Cyclists Charge a Tesla With Nothing but Human Power
> May 28, 2020 [Popular Mechanics] ... A Finnish inventor has come up with a
> new way to charge a Tesla: using human power. Nine professional cyclists
> rode stationary bikes, which fed power into a charging station that juiced
> up the Model X ... results provided very little charge to the EV, the
> project highlighted how human power can be harnessed to create energy ...
> https://youtu.be/gPMEHgX_sZ4
>
>
> + (Leaf EV has less deaths, but small ice kill)
> https://news.yahoo.com/study-death-rates-drivers-vary-040106507.html
> Study: Death Rates for Drivers Vary by Car Size
> May 27, 2020  When it comes to vehicle crashes, size and weight matter a
> great deal ... Another small car that defied the trend is the electric
> Nissan Leaf, with five deaths per million registered vehicle years ...
> ...
> http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2020/05/28/818073-small-cars-kill.html
> IIHS: Small Cars Kill - Are Higher MPG And A Smaller Monthly Payment Worth
> Your Family's Lives?
> May 28, 2020 ... the results for the Leaf, an all-electric car, may reflect
> when and where electric vehicles are driven ...
>
>
>
>
> For EVLN EV-newswire posts view:
>  http://www.evdl.org/archive/
> https://mail-archive.com/ev@lists.evdl.org/maillist.html
>
>
> {brucedp.neocities.org}
>
> --
> Sent from: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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>
>

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(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] Confused L.Vegas-NV Tesla driver fillup-frustrated @petrol-pump (v)

[Michael Ross via EV]

It doesn't look staged, it looks like the guy is clueless. My guess is he
rented it.

On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 10:06 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Ha ha, isn't that hilarious?  Guy buys a Tesla without knowing it's an EV.
>
> I haven't seen it - I don't do Fakebook - but I'd guess it was staged.
> Now
> that Youtube and Fakebook let people who post video clips take a cut of
> their advertising ("monetize" them), people will do just about anything to
> get views - reasonable or not, legal or not, ethical or not.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  When birds of a feather flock together, the usually don't pay
>  much attention to the amount of crap that they drop.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Michael Ross via EV]

Well said, Dave.  I will hang onto my '89 Toyota pickup with those awesome
crank windows and new fangled electronic ignition, no AC. It is 30 years
old now and in NC I don't even have to get it inspected for safety anymore.
(Isn't that strange?) It is hard for cars with lots of little motors and
sensors to be affordable for decades. I suspect that Teslas and EVs will be
better, more durable, than we are accustomed to with contemporaneous ICE. I
just can't afford them.

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:45 AM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> Elon Musk promised us a $30k Tesla.  He didn't deliver one.
>
> Anyone who thinks a $40k car is affordable is clearly not in my socio-
> economic class.  Teslas are cars for your class, not mine.  I've never
> paid
> that much for a new car and (adjusting for inflation) don't ever intend
> to.
> Heck, even if I actually had that much money to spare, I STILL wouldn't
> spend it on a car, EV or not.
>
> There are a lot more of us middle-and lower-class folks in the world than
> there are of you 10-percenters who can afford $40k+ or $80k+ Teslas.  If
> Musk honestly wants to improve the world with EVs, he'd darn well better
> get
> cracking on making some that the rest of us can buy.
>
> Get that bloody Model 3 down to the price it was supposed to be, $30k.
> Then
> introduce a couple of cheap and cheerful little basic hatchbacks the size
> of, say, a VW Up and a Peugeot 208.  Price them around $15-20k and
> $20-25k.
>
> They don't have to go 300 miles on a charge.  A 150-200 mile range will be
> ample.  They don't have to accelerate from 0-60 in 3 seconds, or 6
> seconds.
> A lot of us would be just fine with 10 or 12 seconds - or slower.
>
> We don't need a gigantic touch-screen, either.  Heck, give us crank-down
> windows and plain mechanical door handles.  And skip the autopilot,
> please.
> Just a nice, normal, decently-made car that happens to have an electric
> drivetrain and doesn't cost a year's income or more.
>
> THOSE are the EVs that will change the world - EVs that almost anyone can
> afford. Not big, bloated, heavy, gimmick-laden expensive luxury EVs for a
> tiny wealthy minority.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't
>  mind their own business, because they have no business of their own
> to
>  mind, any more than a smallpox virus has.
>
>  --William Burroughs
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Michael Ross via EV]

100 is a low temperature relative to other chemistries. 80% SOC is a good
CYA for expensive large packs, but depending on the chemistry you can go
higher. Also, the closer you get to the extemes of SOC the more difficult
for battery management.

Nevertheless, in the time period I mentioned this was true for LiFePO.
Worst thing you could do was charge fully and let the pack get moderately
warm/hot. Maybe they have better electrolytes now.

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 2:19 AM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 8 Jul 2020 at 23:39, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > Used to be, I am out of touch, that less than 100°F and 100% SOC was a
> > recipe for significant battery degradation.
>
> I thought it was the other way round - that lithium cells at or near 100%
> SOC would degrade rapidly at high temperatures.  IIRC, the recommendation
> was to keep SOC at or below 80% if high temperatures were expected.  Do I
> have it backwards?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  What has allowed so many psychopathic personalities to rise so high
>  in corporations, and now in government, is that they are so decisive.
>  Unlike normal people, they are never filled with doubts, for the
>  simple reason that they cannot care what happens next.
>
>   -- Kurt Vonnegut
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Michael Ross via EV]

Used to be, I am out of touch, that less than 100°F and 100% SOC was a
recipe for significant battery degradation. Not say they haven't solved
this, but 5 year old cells would not be very good in this respect.

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 8:06 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> I don't think that LiFePO4 has made any remarkable gains in specific
> energy.
>
> What LiFePO4 does have is spectacular cycle life. If manufactured with
> some degree of care, you get 15,000+, 100% SOC, 1C cycles @ 25 Celsius
> from LiFePO4 without going below 50% of the original capacity. They just
> keep going and going You have to seal the case well enough to keep
> air and water out, and use paste, separators, etc. that are also
> reasonably free of water and air on the inside.
>
> Thus, a "million mile" battery has always be possible to make with
> LiFePO4 cells. You just have to be motivated to use quality cells, and
> to actually build it. You also need to be motivated to drive the car
> that many miles. :-)
>
> 200 miles per charge, times 15,000 charge cycles = 3,000,000 miles. Even
> at 5000 cycles, that run-of-the-mill LiFePO4 cells achieve, this gets
> you a million miles.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 7/7/2020 7:43 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > While I was looking for other information a couple of days ago, I ran
> across
> > something on the web that surprised me.  I didn't follow up at the time
> and
> > now I've lost track of where it was, but maybe someone else here knows
> > something about it.
> >
> > The post or article I saw claimed that Tesla's supposedly-upcoming much-
> > discussed "million mile battery" is lithium iron phosphate chemistry.
> >
> > LiFePO4 was something of an EV holy grail 15-20 years ago.  Valence was
> > offering their Saphion phosphate-based lithium modules around 2002.  A123
> > was also an early LiFePO4 booster.  Both claimed long cycle life and
> > improved safety, and A123s were also known for ferocious specific power.
> >
> > When the cheap and cheerful Chinese low-power versions from Thundersky,
> > CALB, and others started to appear in the States, a lot of them went
> into EV
> > conversions.  You can find discussions about this in the EVDL archive
> around
> > 2006-2009.
> >
> > If memory serves, the main downside to LiFePO4 was specific energy.  It
> just
> > wasn't as good as what cobalt and manganese based chemistries offered.
> >
> > I also seem to recall some kind of patent-related LiFePO4 problem.  This
> may
> > have been the reason that hobbyists jumped on the cheap and cheerful
> Chinese
> > LiFePO4 cells from Thundersky, CALB, and the like.  Again dredging up
> from
> > memory, I think that hose companies somehow (allegedly) made an end run
> > around the patent and licensing concerns.
> >
> > Now, if I'm not mistaken, Tesla's development partner in the "million
> mile
> > battery" is a Chinese firm.  That's ... uh ... interesting.
> >
> > So has the EV world rehabilitated lithium iron phosphate's reputation?
> Has
> > its specific energy problem been solved?  What about licensing and
> patents?
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >   A developed country is not a place where the poor have cars.
> >   It's where the rich use public transportation.
> >
> >  -- Gustavo Petro
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4

[Michael Ross via EV]

Yes, I can't justify $40k for a car. That is just crazy to me. I am
driving Scion xB with 250k+ miles on it that I paid $11.9k for with 9K
miles on it. That is the kind of value I need for me to retire and be
financially secure. Taking a loan out for $40k is not going to happen.

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 10:09 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Willie via EV wrote:
> > Charging is no longer an issue.  Most everyone is within 50 miles of a
> > SuperCharger and SuperChargers are (intelligently) spaced about 100
> > miles apart on essentially all major routes.
>
> Well; if you live in the USA on the east or west coast. But they are few
> and far between outside of urban areas in the vast spaces between the
> coasts.
>
> > Claim Teslas are "too expensive" if you wish.  New ones can be bought
> > for less than $40k.
>
> Obviously not too expensive for some; but I've never paid even half that
> for a car. I may get a used one someday (though they are pretty scarce
> around here -- middle of Minnesota)).
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> If happiness is on your mind, here's a daily list to find:
>   - something to do
>   - something to look forward to
>   - someone to love
>   - someone to take good care of
>   - and misbehave, just a little
>   --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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[EVDL] OT: My E- mower power supply died, help?

[Michael Ross via EV]

Hi all,
I have been using a nice programmable AMREL 80V PS for years now to charge
my old Black and Decker 24V mower. The PS not working and I would like to
get something newer and appropriately priced for the application.

Can any of you recommend a good 24V lead acid charger? Or perhaps tell me
what to look for. Used is good, new is Ok.

Thanks!

Mmike

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Re: [EVDL] OT: My E- mower power supply died, help?

[Michael Ross via EV]

No problem Mark. I may go for a new mower. I'm not interested in the power
assist particularly, but getting away from PbSO4 would be nice. I have to
buy about $100 of batteries every 3 or 4 years. If I can't get a good
charger/BMS for my lead acid cells,at a low cost, then a new mower is
likely.

Having 10 mowers ... sounds like bad luck. The mulch bag is falling off the
current mower,so it has been around for a long long time. I can't
remember when I got it. 6 or more years ago and it was used.

Mike

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 10:56 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Oops, sorry. I misread that you were looking for either a charger or
> possibly a new mower.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Jun 23, 2020, at 7:21 PM, Mark Abramowitz 
> wrote:
> >
> > I think that I’m on my 10th electric mower, and my latest is the best
> by far. It’s a Greenworks 40V power-assisted.
> >
> >
> > - Mark
> >
> > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >
> >> On Jun 23, 2020, at 4:48 PM, Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >> I have been using a nice programmable AMREL 80V PS for years now to
> charge
> >> my old Black and Decker 24V mower. The PS not working and I would like
> to
> >> get something newer and appropriately priced for the application.
> >>
> >> Can any of you recommend a good 24V lead acid charger? Or perhaps tell
> me
> >> what to look for. Used is good, new is Ok.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Mmike
> >>
> >> --
> >> Michael E. Ross
> >> (919) 585-6737 Land
> >> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> >> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Michael Ross via EV]

The positive electrode becomes very reactive at near fully charged and this
damages the electrolyte. As mentioned charging the last bit is a slow
process. So Tesla limits the charging to extend battery life and to make
charging to "100%" faster.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 5:23 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> Are you sure about that?  Rapid Charging LiIon typically slows down as you
> near full charge.
>
> July 22, 2020 9:41 AM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
>
> > On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> >
> >> On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> >>> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at
> 100% charged it is not
> >>> because they gave people temporary range increases during the Florida
> Hurricane.
> >>
> >> Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range? or if their
> car was already fully
> >> charged, did it just have extra range?
> >> The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the
> latter means it's the top.
> >
> > I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> > understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> > benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> > faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> > patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> > few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> > that they have longer life.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $40k Nissan Ariya fwd .jp EV r:300mi

[Michael Ross via EV]

I always thought they took the buffer from both the high and low ends of
SOC%. You don't want to totally deplete or charge a pack to get the longest
life from it.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 10:43 PM Bobby Keeland via EV 
wrote:

> It is interesting. I never thought about whether Tesla took the software
> limited part of the charge from the top or the bottom of the battery pack.
> I'm sure glad that I normally charge to only 85% and rarely take the
> battery pack below 30%.
> BobK
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 11:58 AM Willie via EV  wrote:
>
> >
> > On 7/22/20 12:21 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:
> > > On Wed Jul 22 08:33:19 PDT 2020 dov...@bellsouth.net said:
> > >> At any rate Tesla doesn't let you use the whole battery anyway even at
> > 100% charged it is not because they gave people temporary range increases
> > during the Florida Hurricane.
> > > Did they need to do more charging to get that extra range?  or if their
> > car was already fully charged, did it just have extra range?
> > > The former means the reduced range is the bottom of the pack, the
> latter
> > means it's the top.
> >
> > I haven't used a car with a software limited battery but, as I
> > understand, the battery is just not allowed to fully charge.  One
> > benefit, observed and reported by many, is that SuperCharging goes MUCH
> > faster near the top.  With a not limited battery, one rarely has the
> > patience to fully charge at a SuperCharger because it tapers to just a
> > few kw near the top.  A second touted benefit of limited batteries is
> > that they have longer life.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [EVDL] 'All's not well with UK public charging' / Autonomy

[Michael Ross via EV]

The gravitational energy you put into a vehicle climbing a hill, comes back
to you on the downhill side. The effect of weight is often overestimated
for this reason. Battery power is very efficient, in terms of how much you
put in, is close to what you get out, unlike with fossil fuels which are
inordinately wasteful. Not to mention the general filthy nature of it.

For some years now solar production is less costly than fossil fuel
production. It just takes a long time for existing production to wear out
and be retired. The sunk costs of building refineries is enormous and solar
needs its basic infrastructure to be constructed up front. Real estate,
substations, transmission and distribution lines, point of sale apparatus,
and so on. These are what make adoption of renewables slow. However, new
construction of solar and wind are less costly than new construction of
fossil fuel based energy means.

On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 10:55 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> If nearly all the savings is from reducing wind resistance, by drafting,
> then the rails aren't really needed. We could build more expensive
> infrastructure, but a cheaper solution is often better. In other words,
> the focus should be on making drafting possible, not reducing rolling
> resistance.
>
> On wikipedia, one estimate for Teslas semi battery is 11800 kg, or more
> than 20 tons. So, yes, a lot of weight. So, non battery power could
> help. But it doesn't have to be rails. Centenaries would be much less
> expensive to construct. Still, my guess is the long term cheapest
> solution is the large battery. Over time, they will get cheaper and
> lighter.



> Big Snip
>
-- 
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(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824  Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] TMC's Toyoda swipes@ Tesla> (we make real food)

[Michael Ross via EV]

If Toyota or another company does well it will be because they make a car
that competes well. That is what Musk has wanted all along. This is not a
zero sum game, and it will take 10 years or more to make a dent in the ICE
population.

Toyota needs to say this because they have been dense, fossilized, and way
behind. They made other choices that didn't have the legs that they thought
(before there was a Tesla). Prius was a good thing for them and they were
smart to ride that horse. Maybe they should have dismounted sooner. They
have immense resources. If they can't do better than Tesla then they
deserve to lose their jobs. That may happen. Tesla has some things on their
side.

On Sun, Nov 15, 2020, 1:57 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 15 Nov 2020 at 18:33, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
> > Toyota's boss has taken a swipe at Tesla, predicting Elon Musk's
> > electric car company will lose out to established motor manufacturers
> > as they catch up in battery vehicles
>
> When you say "electric car" to someone, is it Toyota that the other guy
> thinks of?
>
> In the US, Tesla owns that space in auto buyers' minds, just as Saturn
> owned
> the "small car" slot in 1990.  I think that's less true worldwide, but
> they're working on it.
>
> In any case, if an established automaker does beat out Tesla for EVs in
> the
> long run, chances are it won't be Toyota.  They dropped that ball about 8
> years ago and haven't found it again yet.  EV time is running out for
> Toyota, especially in Europe and Asia.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  People don't sleep enough, and they all seem to be hunting
>  something that can't be caught.  You think you're the dominant
>  species just because you go to the bathroom in a bowl instead
>  of a box.  But who's cleaning up after whom?
>
>-- Souseme, "Felines of New York"
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Bloated Trucks/Suvs (one isn't)

[Michael Ross via EV]

The cyber truck has the same silhouette as an F150. It looks bigger but Its
not. F150s don't usually get descriptions like, can't park in the city,
behemoth, and so on. I do understand that size truck is mostly over what is
needed. I use a Scion xB with no rear seats for every thing. I have hauled
16' lumber and plywood on roof racks. I can shut the rear door on a 9'
board.

On Sat, Apr 24, 2021, 1:06 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> The Buzz might work as a minivan. It depends on whether they produce non
> camping versions.
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Ed Blackmond via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Ed Blackmond" 
> Sent: 24-Apr-21 9:49:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bloated Trucks/Suvs (one isn't)
>
> >
> >
> >>  On Apr 24, 2021, at 7:09 AM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>  When it comes to EVs, so far all we have is crossovers and SUVs and,
> soon, trucks. No minivans on the horizon as best as I can tell. Is that
> being pushed by marketing or is it perceived market ?
> >
> >Volkswagen says they are going to bring the ID Buzz to market in two
> years.  It can be considered a minivan.
> >
> >Ed
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

From the WIKI:
"Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best
processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have
an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in another
10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.

I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a lot of
inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got that
idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2 and
H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
>
> Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar?
> Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I
> hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
> confusing a point.
>
> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking about.
> No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they
> are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed
> better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other
> energy storage mechanism.
>
> Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just not
> true.
>
> Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
> efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
>
> Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the
> basis for your assumption that it leaks because it is small?
>
> Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk
> about goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I
> wish them luck. I own stock in the company.
>
> Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste.
> Fuel cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal,
> today.
>
> What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get
> the best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any
> decisions based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there
> seems to be a lot of that that you are considering.
>
> BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen
> transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > Numbers help.  For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three
> > carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for
> > a range of 300 miles.  Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the
> > general public uses bars.  It is always PSI.  700 bar translates to 5
> > tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons.   One tank
> > manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction.
> >
> > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
> > included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
> > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
> > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
> > very inefficient.
> >
> > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
> > Hydrogen seeps through pipes because it is such a small atom.  If it
> > didn't, then you have a whole lot of new infrastructure to build.
> > Tanker trucks are another story.  They are capacity limited.
> >
> > I keep looking for genuine breakthroughs and I am not finding them.
> > Most of what I read is hype.
> >
> > Meanwhile, a Tesla pack lasts from  300,000 to 500,000 miles with
> > Musk's goal of 1 million miles.  A million miles is 20K miles per year
> > for 50 years.  Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack.
> >
> > Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92
> > to 97% of a pack.
> >
> > There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet
> > to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV.
> >
> > I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
> > is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons.  I
> > have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or
> > point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle.
> >
> >
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be
> made without them, and frequently, numbers can get in the way.
> >>
> >> - Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >>
>  On Aug 14, 2021, at 8:47 PM, Peri Hartman via EV 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Mark, if you wish to present a point, please at least provide numbers
> in your post and a more specific reference. We all have other things to do,
> beside repeat research you've already done.
> >>> Peri
> >>>
> >>> << 

Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

I see that my previous idea was all about ICE, not fuel cells. I know
nothing about FC efficiency, Lot's a prognostication about how this will
turn out.

It seems that some production methods of hydrogen might be very efficient,
like up to 98% if you can believe it.
The fuel cell efficiency is a pick your number thing as far as I can tell
if you put in future developments.  It looks like a 4% loss from production
to power output, someday maybe. I think putting charges in a Li ion battery
and getting them out again is better than that.

I get it there are a lot of ways to look at this. I am equating the
power generated and used to make industrial hydrogen is equivalent to
making power on the grid by the mixed means of nukes, coal, oil, gas,
solar, wind etc.

I think batteries are more efficient and easier to implement, particularly
in a vehicle, than some future hydrogen fuel cell. I do think fuel cells
are better than the last time I looked into them.

I like H2 as a stored energy means for retaining grid peaks on a regional
to global scale. I still think putting fuel cells in individual vehicles is
not as good as BEV.

It is fun to think about all this, I can't begin to put all the variety of
means and use cases together to see a definitive "H2 is bad," or "H2 is
good."  I think the future will be a combination of all sorts of means. We
can't extraoplate any single energy source or means of distribution as THE
ONE. It won't work that way.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:38 PM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> From the WIKI:
> "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best
> processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have
> an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
> I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in another
> 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.
>
> I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a lot
> of inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got
> that idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining
> O2 and H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
>>
>> Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar?
>> Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I
>> hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
>> confusing a point.
>>
>> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking
>> about. No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply
>> that they are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get
>> managed better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does
>> any other energy storage mechanism.
>>
>> Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just
>> not true.
>>
>> Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
>> efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
>>
>> Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the
>> basis for your assumption that it leaks because it is small?
>>
>> Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk
>> about goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I
>> wish them luck. I own stock in the company.
>>
>> Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste.
>> Fuel cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal,
>> today.
>>
>> What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get
>> the best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any
>> decisions based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there
>> seems to be a lot of that that you are considering.
>>
>> BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen
>> transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil.
>>
>> - Mark
>>
>> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>>
>> > On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Numbers help.  For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three
>> > carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for
>> > a range of 300 miles.  Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the
>> > general public uses bars.  It is always PSI.  700 bar translates to 5
>> > tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons.   One tank
>> > manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction.
>> >
>> > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
>> > included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
>> > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
>> > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
>> > very inefficient.
>> >
>> > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
>> > Hydrogen 

Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Michael Ross via EV]

The batteries catching fire is already a lower probability fault and it
will improve. Far lower than fires with gasoline.

I think these two safety issues, battery fires and H tanks blowing up are
non-problems that have effective tech fixes.Transporting energy to
individual cars is not much to worry about with electric power convenient
means exist. Production and "transport" can be in your own yard. But
transporting H is not even begun.  Lossy electrolysis could be done at home
from PV, but that is economically a non-starter with pressurized storage.
If a dense AND low pressure means is developed that is nice. But it sounds
like a pipe dream. Hydrogen on a film? Intuition tells me that's not going
to be nearly dense enough. Aren't batteries up near 300Wh per kg now (I
just saw a new product claim of 350)? Musk has said aircraft can work at
400Wh/kg, economically.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 10:23 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
wrote:

> MUCH better chance of a battery catching fire than a hydrogen tank
> exploding. In fact, the latter is unlikely to happen. The former, it
> happens all the time.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 15, 2021, at 1:03 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
> >
> > But then there is still the 30% loss in inefficiency in all the heat
> loss in
> > compressing the hydrogen into tanks. (and hoping it wont explode).
> > Bob
> >
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:39 PM Michael Ross via EV 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> From the WIKI:
> >> "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current
> best
> >> processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which
> have
> >> an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
> >> I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in
> another
> >> 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.
> >>
> >> I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a
> lot of
> >> inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got
> that
> >> idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2
> and
> >> H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
> >>>
> >>> Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than
> bar?
> >>> Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is -
> frankly, I
> >>> hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
> >>> confusing a point.
> >>>
> >>> Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking
> about.
> >>> No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that
> they
> >>> are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get
> managed
> >>> better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any
> other
> >>> energy storage mechanism.
> >>>
> >>> Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just
> not
> >>> true.
> >>>
> >>> Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
> >>> efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
> >>>
>
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-- 
Michael E. Ross
(919) 585-6737 Land
(919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Tablet,
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

We have a nation wide grid and a market for power. Storage is less of a
problem than cost. CA may not be selling at a price people are buying. It's
also hard to raise level of pump storage when the water gets used for ag.

My first guess is CA has distorted the market with subsidies, etc. It is
likely a pendulum swing, the asking price will have to come down. Supply
greater than demand.  Some one is going to get some electrons below cost.



On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:30 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> From what I've read, California now has so many PV installations that
> they're actually deliberately cutting output - there's more supply than
> demand.  Springtime is a particular problem because there's ample
> sunshine,
> but the weather is mild, so there's little need for heating or aircon.
>
> Long-term storage would seem to be the real answer, I guess (I"m not an
> expert), and maybe the legislature needs to revisit their RE goals.
>
> But for the immediate situation, more EVs => more demand => more efficient
> use of installed PV, no?
>
> Since charging tends to be at night, short-term storage would be a factor,
> I
> suppose.  Seems easier to implement than long-term storage, but again,
> what
> do I know?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  If at first you don't succeed, skydiving probably isn't for you.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

RE oversupply implies discounting RE
power. Whatever distortions that are applied will have to be paid for, by
customers probably, because stockholders are rarely penalized.

It is also possible that RE power is actually less costly, then the penalty
gets paid by the customers of the non-RE generators/aggregaters.

Somebody pays that is certain. Plenty of RE is long term less costly to
produce than, nukes and fossils. A well built and operated solar facility
can be very competitive. But again there are often subsidies baked in that
have enduring but hard to see effects.

I'm not knowledgeable about wind. Presumably they can compete as well, or
the difference is being made up in tax breaks, credits etc.

My main point is someone does pay, even if a facility is run at less than
optimal output. It is often hidden.


On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 10:50 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2021 at 21:55, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > My first guess is CA has distorted the market with subsidies, etc. It is
> > likely a pendulum swing, the asking price will have to come down. Supply
> > greater than demand.  Some one is going to get some electrons below cost.
>
> Again I'm speaking out of relative ignorance, not having exhaustively
> researched the California energy situation.  However one would think that
> the utilities aren't apt to buy more RE than they're required to,
> especially
> if it costs more than brown energy.
>
> So one solution to RE oversupply would be for the California legislature
> to
> generate demand by raising the required percentage of RE in the grid, no?
>
> And, again, using that excess RE to charge EVs should be a winner all
> round.
>
> However, I'm throwing darts in the dark here, so it'd be great to hear
> from
> someone more familiar with the situation.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  What has allowed so many psychopathic personalities to rise
>  so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they
>  are so decisive. Unlike normal people, they are never filled
>  with doubts, for the simple reason that they cannot care what
>  happens next.
>
>   -- Kurt Vonnegut
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

If you take a longer view, SoCal has an excess of non-RE power that needs
to be shipped pretty far away.

If climate change remediation is going to really happen we need to fill the
status quo. The consumers will pay one way or another, with increasingly
poor climate outcomes, and all the cost that will bring, or with money to
apply more RE.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 11:53 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> Michael, I don't follow you. If, for example, southern cali has excess
> PV generation, it will need to ship that energy somewhere pretty far
> away, say oregon or washington. That would require a pretty substantial
> transmission line. I don't think the existing lines are sufficient. The
> market is there but the infrastructure is not, so they shut down the
> PVs.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Michael Ross" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 01-Sep-21 08:40:44
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant
> to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the
>
> >"that the grid can't handle" is just another example of market
> >distortion. It is a choice of the market, not to say "the grid can't
> >handle so much generation of non-RE."
> >
> >There is a lag in response of the market when you build a gas plant or
> >a nuke that can't be turned down when the cost leans toward RE. A
> >decades long distortion.
> >
> >Again the consumer pays. Because this lost flexibility is cooked in The
> >gain of economy of scale a maybe archaic large generation facility has
> >a hidden cost of preventing cleaner less costly, more flexible, but
> >weirdly time constrained RE generation.
> >
> >I think H2 might be useful as a storage medium. Lots of inefficiency,
> >but on a large scale it has merit. Better than turning down or shutting
> >off a clean cheap generation means.
> >
> >On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 10:22 AM Peri Hartman via EV 
> >wrote:
> >>It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of
> >>PV
> >>energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy
> >>would
> >>be sold, not shut down.
> >>
> >>The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> >>hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
> >>excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
> >>cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
> >>compressed.
> >>
> >>Peri
> >>
> >>
> >>___
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

There is going to ba a point above which recycling batteries  into new ones
has a better payback than using them for storage. And, above which H2 and
other less material intensive tech will be better storage. Tech will advance

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 2:43 PM Ed Blackmond via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Sep 1, 2021, at 9:53 AM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> >
> > 
> >> On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> >> It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV
> energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would be
> sold, not shut down.
> >>
> >> The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an excellent
> use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel cells. Note, for
> this application, the hydrogen does not need to be compressed.
> >
> >
> > Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short
> term battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored
> energy can get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as I
> understand, will be FAR less efficient.
> >
> > Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with
> storage of well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued battery
> cost reductions, especially from Tesla.
> >
> > For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.
> >
> There will soon be more battery storage than we know what to do with. All
> these electric vehicles with 200+ mile range will need to replace their
> batteries when the range drops below an acceptable level.
>
> These batteries will still be quite useful for grid storage/backup. It
> doesn’t really matter how much ground space a battery requires when it is
> sitting under a solar array.
>
> When the batteries are depleted enough to no longer be useful for this
> application, they are going to be in centralized locations simplifying the
> recycling process and they can become new batteries for cars, starting the
> cycle all over again.
>
> Ed
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

Batteries on a large scale fall behind H2 storage if you have big enough
tanks, and if you correctly factor in the costs of batteries and tanks.
Where the lines cross is an open question.

I live 10 miles from a big gas depot in Selma NC. They hold lot and are
very simple, big inverted buckets that rise and fall with the gas. You can
electrolyze H2 into a tank and you get compression for free. Battery
manufacturing, care and feeding is non-trivial. H2 is worth a look for grid
size storage.

Pump storage is similar in efficiency, but hell on the environment,
destroying important watersheds, drowning arable land and habitat. Big dams
cost a lot. Turbines. Makes a tank of gas attractive.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 11:58 AM Willie via EV  wrote:

> Snip
>
> Short term battery storage can be sited near production as well as
> anywhere else.
>
> If you can sell the energy within a few hours and if battery cost
> allows, battery storage looks good to me.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

"that the grid can't handle" is just another example of market distortion.
It is a choice of the market, not to say "the grid can't handle so much
generation of non-RE."

There is a lag in response of the market when you build a gas plant or a
nuke that can't be turned down when the cost leans toward RE. A decades
long distortion.

Again the consumer pays. Because this lost flexibility is cooked in The
gain of economy of scale a maybe archaic large generation facility has a
hidden cost of preventing cleaner less costly, more flexible, but weirdly
time constrained RE generation.

I think H2 might be useful as a storage medium. Lots of inefficiency, but
on a large scale it has merit. Better than turning down or shutting off a
clean cheap generation means.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 10:22 AM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:

> It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of PV
> energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy would
> be sold, not shut down.
>
> The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
> excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
> cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
> compressed.
>
> Peri


>
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Michael Ross via EV]

In today's local paper is an article about FlexGen in Durham NC, they're
raised $150M. They build "software that helps grids manage energy storage."

Doesn't sound exactly like market and also not hardware management
software. " FlexGen's energy storage solutions bridge the gap of
reliability for the grid, and help accelerate the adoption of renewables by
shifting  renewable power to times when it is needed the most."

Source is the Raleigh News and Observer. Thursday 9.02.21 page 6A. I get
this in paper form, but there is an online version.

On Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 8:30 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> From what I've read, California now has so many PV installations that
> they're actually deliberately cutting output - there's more supply than
> demand.  Springtime is a particular problem because there's ample
> sunshine,
> but the weather is mild, so there's little need for heating or aircon.
>
> Long-term storage would seem to be the real answer, I guess (I"m not an
> expert), and maybe the legislature needs to revisit their RE goals.
>
> But for the immediate situation, more EVs => more demand => more efficient
> use of installed PV, no?
>
> Since charging tends to be at night, short-term storage would be a factor,
> I
> suppose.  Seems easier to implement than long-term storage, but again,
> what
> do I know?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  If at first you don't succeed, skydiving probably isn't for you.
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Launches Entry Model 3 with Newer LFP Battery Tech in the U.S. - TeslaNorth.com

[Michael Ross via EV]

No, they will be a lot better. The ones we got on the open market were
crappy. Tesla can't afford crappy batteries that can't
take even moderately high temperatures. They can't have such a low energy
density and low power density. If they are doing LFP it is because they
made significant im[rovements. No cobalt is a biggy. They have to have a
fast charge rate. Large formats cannot be cooled well.

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 6:14 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
wrote:

> Hi folks
> Looks like Elon Musk is trying to spin LiFePo4 batteries that we used in
> our conversions as the latest technology.  I wonder if they’re large format
> cells too :-).
>
> https://teslanorth.com/2021/08/26/tesla-launches-entry-model-3-with-newer-lfp-battery-tech-in-the-u-s/
> Best regards
> Mark in Roanoke Va
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla Launches Entry Model 3 with Newer LFP Battery Tech in the U.S. - TeslaNorth.com

[Michael Ross via EV]

This is far more about stationary storage where range is not a concern and
temperature management is far easier to maintain. LFP have always been a
useful option in stationary applications.

I suspect good work has been done to improve the additives in electrolyte
solutions.

On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 6:29 PM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> No, they will be a lot better. The ones we got on the open market were
> crappy. Tesla can't afford crappy batteries that can't
> take even moderately high temperatures. They can't have such a low energy
> density and low power density. If they are doing LFP it is because they
> made significant im[rovements. No cobalt is a biggy. They have to have a
> fast charge rate. Large formats cannot be cooled well.
>
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 6:14 PM Mark Hanson via EV 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks
>> Looks like Elon Musk is trying to spin LiFePo4 batteries that we used in
>> our conversions as the latest technology.  I wonder if they’re large format
>> cells too :-).
>>
>> https://teslanorth.com/2021/08/26/tesla-launches-entry-model-3-with-newer-lfp-battery-tech-in-the-u-s/
>> Best regards
>> Mark in Roanoke Va
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> ___
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>>
>
>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
> (919) 585-6737 Land
> (919) 901-2805 Cell and Text
> (919) 576-0824  Tablet,
> Google Phone and Text
>
>
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were misleading Yahoo

[Michael Ross via EV]

That is prejudicial nonsense.

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 8:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV 
wrote:

> On 24 Oct 2021 at 22:27, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
>
> > Mr. Anderson and his company have 20 years-experience of consulting
> > with the auto industry and have been providing accurate data over that
> > time to many publications.
>
> With very few exceptions, success as a consultant hinges on determining
> what
> answer your client wants to hear, and delivering that answer.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  The business model of the internet is surveillance.
>
> -- Bruce Schneier
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>
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
around, especially in a hot location. For long term storage, I would guess
the best thing is maybe 50% SOC, and keep it as cool as you can without
actually refrigerating it (though I don't know if that is a bad thing). You
can quickly ruin a LiFPO pack by charging your eBike in a hot sunny place,
and leaving it on the charger after full charge, and with the sun. I speak
from experience. I would avoid exceeding 90°F when fully charged.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 9:01 AM Christopher Darilek via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> I have an 8 year old LiFePO4 pack in my car and wonder if anyone knows
> what the end of life failure mode is for these?
>
> Over the pandemic lock down I was not driving the car for 3 months and
> noticed one day that all the cells were flat, ~2V. I attributed this to
> some parasitic loads over the 3mo, and charged it back up.
>
> Then, with a full charge I drove ~10 miles (about 25% of my 'old' range)
> and parked, and after a couple weeks noticed I was back ~2V per cell.
>
> I put it on charge and it seems to have charged up and is holding voltage
> now.
>
> Is this how LiFePO4 batteries toss in the towel or do I still have a
> parasitic load to debug? What is the failure mode?
>
> Thanks for any tips.
> Chris
> http://www.evalbum.com/4743
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

My personal experience is with the LiFePOcells, but the issue is there for
all/most? It's a shame because they are the most affordable (well maybe, I
haven't bought any since 2015).

In particular, the temperature at which trouble starts is significantly
lower for LiFePO.

I think if you go right out and use a full charge you have no large issues.
It's probably best never to float them like people do with PbSO cells. When
fully charged any excess charging just heats the cells up. I had a pack for
my trike, about %500 worth. I would ride to work ~25 miles in a little more
than an hour. That was about all it was good for with new cells. I could
average about 23mph. I would park it at an outlet on the south wall of a
building and set up the charge. Not a very sophisticated charger. It would
charge fully and I would let it sit and soak. After a couple months of this
I really started having low capacity. Not a very economical situation. I
became aware of the work at the Jeff Dahn lab at Dalhousie and got a much
better understanding what I was doing wrong. Too late though for that pack.

I think stopping short of 100%SOC is a good idea even if you are going to
ride off immediately. In terms of how to measure and manage the charging,
the voltage changes very little as SOC rises. How to get it right?  Its a
conundrum.

Jack Ricard put some effort into watching cells sit on the shelf and they
do slowly lose SOC. He knew how to measure SOC accurately by drawing them
down. He also saw a small but significant and permanent loss from full
capacity, year after year, just sitting them in storage. I am not clear on
what exactly causes that loss. LiFePO could charge back up pretty good if
you didn't do what I did.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
> > around, especially in a hot location.
>
> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>
> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>
> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For long
> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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>  happened after that.
>
>   -- Unknown
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

For LiFePO, a parasitic load might be protective. It's that full charge
that is destructive.

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:

> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>
> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it sit
> > around, especially in a hot location.
>
> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>
> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>
> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For long
> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>  happened after that.
>
>   -- Unknown
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>
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Re: [EVDL] LiFePO4 EOL behavior

[Michael Ross via EV]

Some of you know this, and the info is not current, but is good for LiFePO.
Anyhow, just to be complete in the discussion:

When a cell is discharged, the lithium ions are on the anode and the
cathode is depleted of ions. This is a pretty benign state chemically. But
as the cathode loads up Li ions from charging the anode becomes very
reactive. So reactive that it starts to tear up the electrolyte. Heat just
makes it worse. With advancements in additives to help the electrolyte stay
healthy Li cells became steadily more durable.

Older CALB and other brands cells are liable to be deficient after many
years. Buyer beware.
Maya WoulfeiFEPO and circa 2015

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 12:20 AM Michael Ross 
wrote:

> For LiFePO, a parasitic load might be protective. It's that full charge
> that is destructive.
>
> On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 11:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>> On 24 Jul 2021 at 21:04, Michael Ross via EV wrote:
>>
>> > The worst thing you can do to LiFPO is to charge it fully, and let it
>> sit
>> > around, especially in a hot location.
>>
>> Isn't that the case for lithium batteries of any chemistry?  I'm not a
>> lithium expert by any means; I'm just asking.
>>
>> It occurs to me that some of Chris's parasitic loads could be coming from
>> "inside the house," so to speak.  That is, they might be from the BMS.
>>
>> I have 24v and 36v 10ah LiFePO4 batteries with a BMS with logic that's
>> powered by a 12v tap (not the optimum design), and the 4 cells that power
>> the BMS always take longer than the others to reach full charge.  For
>> long
>> term storage I have read a suggestion to disconnect the BMS if possible -
>> but don't forget to reconnect it when taking the battery out of storage.
>>
>> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>>
>> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
>> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>  First they came for the journalists.  We don't know what
>>  happened after that.
>>
>>   -- Unknown
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>>
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>
> --
> Michael E. Ross
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-- 
Michael E. Ross
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