Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On 12 Jun 2008, at 03:19, Kevin Dean wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one. Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and buy a phone and sign up for a contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll see they're the same. I think your replies to this thread started when I said OMG! WTF!?!?!? in reply to a statement like that. Here in the UK the prices would certainly NOT be the same. Checking ATT's website it does indeed seem the situation is different in the US. I went to the website, clicked the shop for tariffs (shop for plans?) link and was unable to complete the checkout process without selecting a handset. To a European, this seems about as antiquated as being required to rent your landline handset from the phone company (which indeed was the case when I was a child, 25 years ago). You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit someone else's company is able to make on transactions. Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's should a bit literally here. Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily advertise got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs! Think of how the customers would come flocking to them. The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock, inventory finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me. (OTOH: I now understand that the iPhone truly does only cost $199, if one prefers monthly billing to PAYG SIM cards). Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, at 03:19, Kevin Dean wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one. Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and buy a phone and sign up for a contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll see they're the same. I think your replies to this thread started when I said OMG! WTF!?!?!? in reply to a statement like that. Here in the UK the prices would certainly NOT be the same. Checking ATT's website it does indeed seem the situation is different in the US. I went to the website, clicked the shop for tariffs (shop for plans?) link and was unable to complete the checkout process without selecting a handset. To a European, this seems about as antiquated as being required to rent your landline handset from the phone company (which indeed was the case when I was a child, 25 years ago). I'm surprised that ATT doesn't list that on their site. I honestly haven't checked their (or T-Mobile, my provider of choice) website for being able to do that. The thing is, people frequently go Cell carriers are doing this abusive thing! and that gets me a bit annoyed. It is more common to buy the phone/service bundle, but it's not the ONLY way to. I went to T-Mobile this weekend to purchase a SIM card for my Freerunner and the only question asked was Is it unlocked (ensuring it's compatible). There was a SNAFU there because this was a newly opened store who didn't have the activation kits, but it was a service they clearly offered and even have pamphlets in their holders. You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit someone else's company is able to make on transactions. Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's should a bit literally here. Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily advertise got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs! Think of how the customers would come flocking to them. There are other logistical issues to that, and while it's slowly changing, it's not possible to ignore them. In most of Europe, GSM is standard. In the US, two of the four largest cellular providers use CDMA so for most people making that claim would come with so many caveats that it would be hard to handle even in the best case. In Verizon's case, for instance, they will be transitioning to GSM from CDMA soon. It would be a bit counter productive for them to encourage people to bring their existing phones over to a network when they're phasing down that very technology. There's also the fact that most people are in a contract. There would have to be SIGNIFIGANT savings to justify most of that for customers. Typical early termination fees are between $150 and $300 per handset. A 25% monthly savings on my plan would save me very little money in the long run ($150 cancellation fee per handset and my plan is a family plan where my wife and I share minutes. To cancel that service, I'd need to terminate 2 phones, costing me $300 for a two year savings of $360). There's also the consumerist mentality here. I'm not sure if it exists in the UK, or if so, how strongly, but it is common (especially among the younger demographic) to change phones frequently to have the latest and greatest. It's the same reason the iPhone 2 is going to sell despite the fact that the iPhone is still functional and even still leading the pack in terms of appeal. The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock, inventory finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me. As I said above, in many many many cases it is the phone, NOT the cellular service, that gets people interested in service. ATT wasn't particularly appealing but the iPhone WAS. There are some pragmatic people who buy a phone and use it until it dies. A large chunk upgrade their phones before their contracts expire for some new or improved feature, or because it comes in a new color. Even when two carriers have the same phone models, there are often exclusives - Verizon had a pink RAZR for a year before anyone else did for instance. (OTOH: I now understand that the iPhone truly does only cost $199, if one prefers monthly billing to PAYG SIM cards). Perhaps that's another difference that matters. Trying to buy my SIM this past weekend, even though they
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Kevin Dean wrote: On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Stroller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tariffs (shop for plans?) link and was unable to complete the checkout process without selecting a handset. I'm surprised that ATT doesn't list that on their site. They want to force you to walk into their store where you see all of the phones on display and try to sell you accessories, etc. Just take the Freerunner into the store with you and say Hey, have an unlocked GSM phone here already, just need a SIM... I went to T-Mobile this weekend to purchase a SIM card for my Freerunner and the only question asked was Is it unlocked (ensuring it's compatible). There was a SNAFU there because this was a newly opened store who didn't have the activation kits, but it was a service they clearly offered and even have pamphlets in their holders. Kevin, make sure you activate your minutes -- the TMobile store I went to said they would activate my minutes and it took me and Michael Shiloh scratching our collective heads at SCALE 6x to determine that my TMobile SIM wasn't working because it was never activated by the store... -id You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit someone else's company is able to make on transactions. Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's should a bit literally here. Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily advertise got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs! Think of how the customers would come flocking to them. There are other logistical issues to that, and while it's slowly changing, it's not possible to ignore them. In most of Europe, GSM is standard. In the US, two of the four largest cellular providers use CDMA so for most people making that claim would come with so many caveats that it would be hard to handle even in the best case. In Verizon's case, for instance, they will be transitioning to GSM from CDMA soon. It would be a bit counter productive for them to encourage people to bring their existing phones over to a network when they're phasing down that very technology. There's also the fact that most people are in a contract. There would have to be SIGNIFIGANT savings to justify most of that for customers. Typical early termination fees are between $150 and $300 per handset. A 25% monthly savings on my plan would save me very little money in the long run ($150 cancellation fee per handset and my plan is a family plan where my wife and I share minutes. To cancel that service, I'd need to terminate 2 phones, costing me $300 for a two year savings of $360). There's also the consumerist mentality here. I'm not sure if it exists in the UK, or if so, how strongly, but it is common (especially among the younger demographic) to change phones frequently to have the latest and greatest. It's the same reason the iPhone 2 is going to sell despite the fact that the iPhone is still functional and even still leading the pack in terms of appeal. The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock, inventory finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me. As I said above, in many many many cases it is the phone, NOT the cellular service, that gets people interested in service. ATT wasn't particularly appealing but the iPhone WAS. There are some pragmatic people who buy a phone and use it until it dies. A large chunk upgrade their phones before their contracts expire for some new or improved feature, or because it comes in a new color. Even when two carriers have the same phone models, there are often exclusives - Verizon had a pink RAZR for a year before anyone else did for instance. (OTOH: I now understand that the iPhone truly does only cost $199, if one prefers monthly billing to PAYG SIM cards). Perhaps that's another difference that matters. Trying to buy my SIM this past weekend, even though they sold them, there was some confusion - they're sold so infrequently here that it was a noteworthy event. Having to not manage minutes is a very convenient thing for me and if not for wanting to test the Freerunner and the 1973 at the same time, I'd have zero real incentive to go prepaid. That sentiment is most common here, though there are good reasons to do an as you go plan. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko
SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Joe Pfeiffer wrote: when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it. TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card for it. I'm sure ATT would do the same if you simply walk into the store and tell them you want to purchase a SIM card for an unlocked phone you already own, and that you just want the SIM card. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 18:08 -0700, ian douglas wrote: Robert Taylor wrote: If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package and THEN we can talk. But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the consumer isn't paying more for the phone since they'd still have to pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means ATT makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't subsidized anything. And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner. I took the following approach (I am in The Netherlands): compare the price difference for a 24month contract with or without an iPhone (16GB) (Yes this is not the new one, but i suspect it will not differ too much). Price for 24 mo with iPhone: 719,- eur with HTC Touch Diamond (just for comparison): 541,- without phone: 163,10 eur ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
ian douglas wrote: Robert Taylor wrote: I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong. Hi Robert, I'm not trying to win the overall argument, I just want you to acknowledge that my position is as valid as your own, as I do for your position in point #2 below. Ian, I acknowledge that your point is valid. My apologies to you and everyone for making more of a stink out of this than necessary. I get it, we can't win playing their game. According to someones post a while back, it will be at least a year before any of the hoops can be jumped through before the moko will start to be considered as part of some sort of subsidized package deal. Although there is wiggle room, it seems that if we can't make the device stand out and we get locked into feature vs feature war that it is a loosing strategy. The iphone deal is a pretty horrible deal, as is the blackberry device. I can't understand how anyone buys things like that. However RIM and Apple have managed to do a great job at differentiating their brand in the market place and getting their message out. I wonder if we have anything that unique to offer. Can the open world come up with an identity? Or is our identity no identity? Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Our Identity (was: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Robert Taylor wrote: if we can't make the device stand out ... it is a loosing strategy. Yup, you've hit the nail on the head ... anyone comparing apples to apples in a side-by-side feature list is more likely to choose the iPhone. It looks slick, it's a nice form factor, and has features the Freerunner will not have like the camera and 3G. The Freerunner will have features like USB host mode and open-source software. I think what's more likely to happen is that the Freerunner will primarily be picked up by the technology-advanced users around the world, who will then show off the phone to everyone around them, and word will spread gradually. I'm confident that the OpenMoko team know exactly what they're doing in terms of marketing, etc.. I wonder if we have anything that unique to offer. Can the open world come up with an identity? Our identity as a community is exactly that: openness. Use the phone how you want, update it when you want, change it when you want, upload apps when you want, write your own apps, nothing's hidden, you have complete access. You won't have anywhere close to that level of access on the iPhone without jailbreaking it and all of the risks included in that, and having to re-break the phone every time Apple upgrades the firmware, etc., plus being forced to *buy* applications from iTunes. Bleh. As I've said above, that identity is more likely to appeal to the geeks of the world than Joe Six Pack. And I don't think OpenMoko is trying to sell millions of Freerunners like Apple/ATT are hoping to... we'll have a carefully-carved niche market of users, and it'll start with the curious users and expand from there over time. By the time the GTA03 or GTA04 come out with cameras and (hopefully) a slimmer form factor, etc., I think it'll be more of a phone/device that will appeal to a much wider audience. My $0.02... -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote: I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy back yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold with the Freerunner. Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's only the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee nothing.. -- Andy / ScaredyCat pgpmbFkQn0pah.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Sander Hoentjen wrote: compare the price difference for a 24month contract with or without an iPhone (16GB) (Yes this is not the new one, but i suspect it will not differ too much). Price for 24 mo with iPhone: 719,- eur with HTC Touch Diamond (just for comparison): 541,- without phone: 163,10 eur According to Engadget [1], ATT will have a voice/data plan for the iPhone starting as low as $69.95/month, and a minimum of $84.95 for business customers. The $69.95 price seem to be the same (at least in my Los Angeles-based zip coe) for a non-iPhone user selecting the minimum voice plan at $39.95 and the $30/month unlimited 'personal data' plan for PDA's and Smartphones. Data plan is $50 for unlimited data/SMS, and data plan is $60 for 5GB of data with tehering (using your smartphone as a modem). Over the course of two years, you'd be paying the same $1679.04 plus taxes, fees, surcharges, etc. plus the cost of the phone at the $69.95 price. [1] http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-from-atandt-unlimited-data-for-30/ ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear - what market
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Robert Taylor wrote: On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract. If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than the $600 the phone is worth. The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway) not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was assumed that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). so they sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that. now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of not completely cover it and then some. This is how I've understood it too, so this means there would be no cheap unlocked iPhones on the market in any significant volume. But the next thing to consider is what market/audience is the main target of OM. It seems some places (US) you'll end up to pay the same for the contract with or without a subsidised phone, which makes OM pricey compared to other options. In many places in europe however you can get much cheaper contracts without an included phone. In Finland (which is a best case scenario, granted) for example, I would never touch a phone+subscription combo, partly thanks to a good legislation. So in many (most?) countries in europe OM + a contract could be significantly cheaper than iPhone. I can't say about the asian market, but I think the imporant thing to consider where the most phones are expected to be sold. Another thing to consider is the target audience of GTA02. Are people who consider getting GTA02 also considering iPhone, or is it more of a geek/hacker (GTA02) - ooh look at me, I'm so trendy (iPhone) split, in which case the problem isn't a big deal to begin with. sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier store, and some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i guarantee that that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey have to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money. as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are going to be much more than $199. furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a freephone have to be competitive in price, not only in quality and philosophy. This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and understand the reality of the situation. not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you pay anyway _ Do more with your photos with Windows Live Photo Gallery. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_photos_022008 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
This discussion is silly. Seriously, it's silly. It's silly on so many levels I probably can't sum up all the point's that make it silly. Now that I got your attention; I apologize, I don't think you guys or anyone else are silly. ok? But bear with me as I try to explain why I think this is a silly dicussion. 1. OM is a niche marked manufacturer. First off all, does anyone here even remotely imagine that OM/FIC has the marketing capacity or brand leverage as Apple? You know, Apple Corporation whose whole existence is dependent on good industrial design and long-term brandname marketing? You know, the Apple corporation that has survived 30 years of IBM and MS hostility by leveraging their strengths? I can't (at the moment) even imagine OM trying to target the majority of Apple's consumerbase. It's corporate suicide. 2. OM is a startup company. (on the long term scale.) The GTA01/02/03+ designs are still evolving and more importantly the cellular/computing market hasn't even started to seriously grow. No sane economist can today even guess when market saturation will occur. Besides, today's PDA's / mobile are fairly primitive in capabilities compared with the wealth of software and choice in the PC market. (Including all Apple, OM, HTC, Nokia and SE PDA/mobiles.) This means there is a lot of opportunities for startups to both create new market's and to fail miserably. OM has been around for a couple of years and has to stay in the game at least until it's possible to forcast how the mobile computing market will evolve. This could take a decade, and personally I hope FIC whoever owns the majority of OM shares is willing to provide 10+ years of capital before any significant return of investment occurs. But I doubt OM's shareholdes has (yet) the willingness to invest the amount necessary to create a global distribution and production capability to rival Nokia, SE or Apple on basically a untried HW design, untried SW and a untried nieche market. At least, it won't happend until after GTA03 or maybe even GTA04 has become a success and /created/ a niche opensource crowd/fanboy market. 3. Production cost's on HW dictate a Economics of Scale. When comparing prices and claiming OM/Iphone is cheaper/more expensive don't forget that regardless of now cool/cheap/nifty/open/closed the SW is the overhead to start production of hardware is insanely high _and_ in addition there is a base cost for the physical components that won't go away. As production in units ramp towards /millions/ of units the overhead margin shrinks towards zero. But I doubt there will ever be sold more than a couple of ten tousands of GTA02. I'm not even sure that the GTA02's price and production will cover the costs pr unit for OM/FIC. I'm not claiming they are dumping prices, rather that the cost of running OM,( engineering, marketing, accounting etc.) probably won't be recuperated by selling GTA02 units. (Nor 03 or 04.. maybe during GTA05) 4. How cellular phones are priced is dictated by how a regional market has evolved. The US _isn't_ the only market in the world, nor are the the market conditions in the US even remotely comparable with other regional markets. So maybe the Iphone is sold in the US locked to a ATT plan, in a market where there you actually have to pay /exit-fees/, and where monthly costs doesn't change regardless of where you bought your phone. How many units sold in different markets isn't dictated only by the sales price but rather on how the market has evolved in different regions. Don't overextrapolate when trying to guestimate the cost of a Iphone vs. GTA. Some regions has a lower barrier to entry, and personally I won't be surprised if GTA02 end up being sold by the ten thousands in Europe/Asia while the sales in the US will only reach a few hundred units. (IMHO) 5. The GTA01/02/03+ designs are still evolving and the SW is barely alpha quality. Discussing Iphone vs gta interface and SW capabilities isn't remotely interesting as it has next to no impact on sales. Any current GTA SW is iphone SW in terms of maturity and capabilities if it was targeted at the same consumer base as the iphone. Look at linux on desktops, Ubuntu and derivates has barely started to nible at the edges of MS's entrenced market domination. Expect another decade of steady improvement of linux desktop SW while MS's does the I'm-a-dinosaur-and-meteorites-doesn't-exist dance before market partity has been reached. This also applies to OM in a market were Nokia and SE are the actually main opponents. 6. OM want to leverage the development cycle of opensource/free software. Of course OM is gambling on the fact that opensource/free software has a insane rate of evolution when it hits the right sweet spot among opensource developers/fans boys. But to hit this sweet spot they will _have_ to do everything they can to appeal to such a crowd rather than the regular consumer base. (Slightly
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote: I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy back yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold with the Freerunner. Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's only the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee nothing.. Andy / ScaredyCat No all incoming calls are free in India and most handsets are sold without contract. This is a pay as you go (or prepaid) sim where they are willing to offer India Rupees 250/per month (1 USD=43 Indian rupees) for unlimited data and you can buy voice minuets as you like. what i meant by free incoming was that the sim will remain active for one year even if you dont buy any minuets at all and you can continue to receive free incoming calls for the entire year. The normal rate for unlimited data plan is between Indian Rupees Rs395-495 + a basic rental of your contract (ranging between Rs 200 - 400 for normal users). Outgoing calls cost are extra. The Rs 250/month unlimited data was offered if we bundled their connection with the Freerunners we sold. At the moment we have no intentions of doing that as most of the early buyers form us will be developers but may offer it (or a better deal) as an *option *when mass market software is ready. Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
I pay my carrier €50 per year on avarage. And buying an OM will not increase that amount. Peter On Tuesday 10 June 2008 19:56:44 ian douglas write: Robert Taylor wrote: You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year contract minimum. Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware. And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of going to Apple to help pay for the hardware. Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price of their phones to lock you into a contract. Just my $0.02. What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software. That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Andy Powell wrote: On Wednesday 11 June 2008 04:47, rakshat hooja wrote: I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy back yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold with the Freerunner. Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's only the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee nothing.. I just learned from an overseas friend about this pay for being called, and it certainly feels outrageous to someone used to being called for free. Alas, I guess it is a matter of time that this feature arrives over here... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace. No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry. Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Wednesday 11 June 2008 09:51, rakshat hooja wrote: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 PM, Andy Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like you got stuck with the crappy US model contract. AFAIK it's only the USA (and now India) where you pay to *receive* calls as well as make them. Perhaps we're 'lucky' in Europe where inbound calls cost the callee nothing.. Andy / ScaredyCat No all incoming calls are free in India and most handsets are sold without contract. This is a pay as you go (or prepaid) sim where they are willing to offer India Rupees 250/per month (1 USD=43 Indian rupees) for unlimited data and you can buy voice minuets as you like. what i meant by free incoming was that the sim will remain active for one year even if you dont buy any minuets at all and you can continue to receive free incoming calls for the entire year. The normal rate for unlimited data plan is between Indian Rupees Rs395-495 + a basic rental of your contract (ranging between Rs 200 - 400 for normal users). Outgoing calls cost are extra. The Rs 250/month unlimited data was offered if we bundled their connection with the Freerunners we sold. At the moment we have no intentions of doing that as most of the early buyers form us will be developers but may offer it (or a better deal) as an *option *when mass market software is ready. Rakshat Ahhh ok, thanks for clearing that up. My mistake. -- Andy / ScaredyCat pgpzf6pCIWOzy.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Thanks for this enlightening post! I'd wish this thread could fade now... :M: ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
My question is this: say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract agreement anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest minute/plans? If thats the case, then yeah, it looks like the iPhone is cheaper for my situation. If you already have a mobile plan and do not intend to switch, then the freerunner is the way to go. . . just my 2 cents. - Original Message From: ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 4:21:39 PM Subject: Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price Robert Taylor wrote: Please, compare equal things. Why are you posting nonsense here? Rob, I'm not the one who posted the original article, and I take offense to you saying that my thoughts are 'nonsense' -- that sort of attitude isn't helpful to anybody. In a previous post, you said: The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it. In another, you said: The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko. We're not talking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're comparing how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner. While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Michael Kluge wrote: 7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace. No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry. Dominate and define are different things. Blackberry might dominate (only in US though), but now Apple has the new cool thing, and every manufacturer from Samsung to Nokia make releases of similar models at the same time. So Apple does define the smartphone market for a given cusomer segment. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
+1 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:55 AM, Shawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My question is this: say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract agreement anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest minute/plans? If thats the case, then yeah, it looks like the iPhone is cheaper for my situation. If you already have a mobile plan and do not intend to switch, then the freerunner is the way to go. . . just my 2 cents. Depends on the country and even more on personal preference. I personally have never used a cell phone via a contract - I buy pre-paid minutes, because I know what I'm spending that way. Plus the contract terms are comparable to an EULA - scary stuff to this individual. In fact, in Brazil where I live its illegal to sell a blocked phone - in no small part because those predatory telephone companies do curious things on their bills and limit their services. I think perhaps the USA is the odd ball in their locked way of doing business, so ymmv. I personally would find it ironic if I had an open source cell phone but had to have a contract to use it - but that's just me. Would I be paying extra on minutes? I only make about 10 minutes of calls a month and a little more when I travel, but even if it made modest economic sense, I prefer to pay more for my freedom. Sort of like paying more for an unlocked openmoko rather than some comparable alternative - if there's a choice, I'll pay more for freedom. Whether other people would or wouldn't pay more for their freedom isn't an interesting question to me - I simply don't care. Robert ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re:SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
ian douglas writes: Joe Pfeiffer wrote: when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it. TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card for it. Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a phone? Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without giving me the phone... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
I plan on using my phone in VOIP mode as often as possible. Since I use my phone most often at home, I'm hoping I'll be able to use far fewer minutes per month than normal. That's when the pay-as-you-go SIM plan starts to really pay off - I don't have to pay for an artificial minimum of minutes that I won't use. When I run out of minutes, I just buy more. If I only talk on VOIP during the month, that's zero cost. Also, I hear that ATT is charging 10$ more per month for iphones over their normal plan fees, and even more if you are a business user. So for a two year contract thats 240$. And if you stay with ATT after that, you keep paying that same premium on into the future too. If you're like me and you keep your smartphones for 4+ years, then that would be more like 480$ over the 199 initial outlay. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
The local t-mobile store occasionally has a no extra charge (free I suppose) quad band world phone from Motorola. I was thinking of getting that as a spare. On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ian douglas writes: Joe Pfeiffer wrote: when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it. TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card for it. Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a phone? Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without giving me the phone... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Your calculations may well be correct for the awful situation in the USA. In other parts of the world, this is drastically different! Please keep that in mind. Ortwin On 6/11/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Taylor wrote: Just compare equal things. We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of equal. Hear me out: By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner, and using ATT for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over two years no matter which phone they buy. Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following: the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price. He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies. The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself. The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199. Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399. If they choose the $199 iPhone, they get locked into a two year contract, likely paying $100 per month for a voice/data plan. Over 24 months, their total cost is going to be about $2600. If they choose the $399 Freerunner, they aren't locked into a minimum 2 year contract, but they'll still need monthly service for the same 24-month period. As I mentioned in a previous message, a plain voice/data plan with ATT is still going to cost $90 or more depending on the plan you pick. After 24 months, they've still paid $2600. That looks pretty 'equal' to me, and *I* believe the average consumer will feel the same way. If you don't agree with that, then you and I simply don't agree on it, but that still doesn't warrant calling someone's communication nonsense simply because you don't agree with them. The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys pay as you go minutes/data instead of a monthly plan. The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and start buying applications through iTunes for their phone. If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package and THEN we can talk. But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the consumer isn't paying more for the phone since they'd still have to pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means ATT makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't subsidized anything. And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
ATT in the US does offer SIMs without a phone. However, you have to go into a Corporate store. The resellers generally won't or can't do this. I do not know, however, if they offer SIMs with contracts. To my knowledge, they only do this with pay as you go SIMs. On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:41 PM, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe Pfeiffer wrote: when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it. TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card for it. I'm sure ATT would do the same if you simply walk into the store and tell them you want to purchase a SIM card for an unlocked phone you already own, and that you just want the SIM card. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 You are totally right.At T-Mobile Germany you can reserve an iPhone 3G. You can only get it with an contract thant is far more expensive than comparable contracts of T-Mobile Germany. The cheapest (24 month-) contract Complete S is 5 € more expensive than a comparable one. With this contract the price for the iPhone 3G with 8GB is249€. So, now let's calculate: 5€ /month * 24 = 120 € 120+249 = 369 € = 574$ And this is not completle correct, cause in germany nearly every phone is subsidized. For my new contract without phone you can get between 150 € (233$) and 400 € (622$) at resellers. For a small contract like the one I used at the top it is around 200 €. so we are around 569€ (884 $). I think this is everything but cheap. Of course be careful with this calculation. But for a tendence is can be used. And yet a little hint: the 16GB one will cost 499€ (776$) with contract (even with the expensive ones which go up to 90€(140$)/month). I don't want to calculate the price of the iPhone, i just want to explain, that it does NOT cost 299$. Greetings Bastian Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) schrieb: | On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: | | Robert Taylor wrote: | On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract. | If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than | the $600 the phone is worth. | The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow | you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen | again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the | first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone | will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price | than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with | moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone | will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway) | | not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this | happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was assumed | that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore | the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). so they | sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that. | | now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you | can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a | contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract | unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination | clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of | not completely cover it and then some. | | sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or | from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier store, and | some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i guarantee that | that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate | once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey have | to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money. | | as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are | going to be much more than $199. | | furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a | freephone have to be competitive in price, not only in quality and | philosophy. | This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing | things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to | be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, | it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and | understand the reality of the situation. | | not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about | smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable | you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you | pay anyway | | _ | Do more with your photos with Windows Live Photo Gallery. | http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_photos_022008 | ___ | Openmoko community mailing list | community@lists.openmoko.org | http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community | | -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIUAzUlYiDScJJ+7QRAgAQAKDdPmh7mEozFztWzV/gQPGp+ab3SACghrp4 IgwHYZhD6aY4VOxlWfBRXkI= =+AlJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: ian douglas writes: Joe Pfeiffer wrote: when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it. TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card for it. Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a phone? Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without giving me the phone... Where the heck are you? To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone is cheaper. The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Sillyness: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Kalle Happonen wrote: Michael Kluge wrote: 7. Apple currently defines the PDA/mobile marketplace. No, the smartphone market is dominated by the Blackberry. Dominate and define are different things. Blackberry might dominate (only in US though), but now Apple has the new cool thing, and every manufacturer from Samsung to Nokia make releases of similar models at the same time. So Apple does define the smartphone market for a given cusomer segment. Yes, I was talking about the *I use it for my business* market in the US. Correct. Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On 11 Jun 2008, at 13:55, Shawn wrote: My question is this: say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract agreement anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest minute/plans? They may do it differently in the US (woah! Europe's market regulation might be good for the consumer!?!?!) but here in the UK the contract agreement is cheaper if you bring your own phone. Sure, a contract gets you the cheapest minute/plans (as long as you use them), but there's cheapest and cheapest. Here in the UK millions of people have old mobile phones they've already paid for, or on which the contract has already expired. Sure, they may go with O2 or Vodafone for their next contract because they get a free iPhone, but those existing unlocked phones don't get chucked in the landfill. So I go to Vodafone and say I've got this old phone that my brother's throwing away, and I'd like a contract please; if Vodafone only offer me a contract which includes a replacement phone then that new phone has to be paid for somehow in the terms of the contract; if I go to O2 instead and they say ok, you don't want a new phone then obviously they can make the contract cheaper. I am staggered this seems to be so difficult, and I'm not sure whether it's that the carriers make it so difficult in some parts of the world, or simply that the concept is so difficult to some people. Stroller. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Shawn wrote: say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to ATT as my provider (as I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a contract agreement anyway? It varies, depending on who you talk to. They typically need to lock you into a 2-year contract if they're subsidizing a phone. Since the Freerunner isn't subsidized by them, they should give you the same rate, but not lock you into a two-year agreement. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Joe Pfeiffer wrote: ian douglas writes: TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their stores, and I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them I had an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a SIM card for it. Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a phone? Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without giving me the phone... It was a pay-as-you-go SIM card, no contract required. Minutes are good for a year 9though I used up almost the entire block of 1,000 minutes doing talk time tests last month on the Freerunner. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Ben Burdette wrote: Also, I hear that ATT is charging 10$ more per month for iphones over their normal plan fees, and even more if you are a business user. They raised the rate in general, even without picking a phone at attwireless.com, you can still see the basic unlimited data with limited SMS option is $30/month. And yeah, they're charging business users $45/month for the same unlimited data plan, because it will include sync'ing to MS Exchange (like the Blackberry PDA's do), and the 50% premium is simply due to the fact that the 'push' technology will use more bandwidth. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Stroller writes: On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a phone? Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without giving me the phone... Where the heck are you? To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone is cheaper. US. To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these months as a result). The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved. I haven't seen anything like that here. The plan costs what it costs; you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stroller writes: On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a phone? Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without giving me the phone... Where the heck are you? To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone is cheaper. US. To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these months as a result). I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no matter what phone you have. In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the service contract doesn't. The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved. Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just look at cellular service differently than Americans. You are implying that the contract is the monthly service of voice/data connectivity and a handset. In the US, ONLY the monthly service of voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the cost of it in installments monthly. But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data connectivity) remains the same price. I haven't seen anything like that here. The plan costs what it costs; you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
News Flash! The US doesn't always make sense. I'm a United Statesian. I've lived around and worked with Europeans for years and I'm always agreeing that what we have doesn't seem sensible or doesn't appear thought out. It's very screwy. It just is. :-) On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 1:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stroller writes: On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a phone? Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without giving me the phone... Where the heck are you? To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone is cheaper. US. To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these months as a result). The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved. I haven't seen anything like that here. The plan costs what it costs; you can pay varying amounts up front for different phones. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Kevin Dean wrote: I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no matter what phone you have. In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the service contract doesn't. Which part of a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE CONTRACT is hard to understand? Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this? Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Kevin Dean writes: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: US. To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these months as a result). I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no matter what phone you have. Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the contract. If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one. In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the service contract doesn't. The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved. Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just look at cellular service differently than Americans. You are implying that the contract is the monthly service of voice/data connectivity and a handset. In the US, ONLY the monthly service of voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the cost of it in installments monthly. But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data connectivity) remains the same price. Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long enough to pay for the phone, or pay for the phone under the guise of an early termination fee. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 4:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Dean writes: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: US. To me, it's quite obvious that a contract without a phone *should* be cheaper, but that's a long way from is (it actually worked out for the best, since I've had a working phne all these months as a result). I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no matter what phone you have. Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the contract. If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one. In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the service contract doesn't. The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to pay up front - on can choose the phone for free with one set of tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved. Not sure if you're confusing cause and effect here or if Brits just look at cellular service differently than Americans. You are implying that the contract is the monthly service of voice/data connectivity and a handset. In the US, ONLY the monthly service of voice/data connectivity is contracted. It seems to me that what you're ACTUALLY doing when you make your purchase is purchasing a phone at some price, agreeing to a service level (monthly voice/data) and then financing the cost of that device through your monthly bill. By paying the £75 up front you're simply paying for the phone and NOT paying the cost of it in installments monthly. But from how I see it the service that is purchased (voice/data connectivity) remains the same price. Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long enough to pay for the phone, or pay for the phone under the guise of an early termination fee. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community If I make an observation.. I am an American by birth but have lived all over the world.. In the middle of the Pacific, Korea, and now Europe (again). One of the things I have noticed is that the laws in Europe tend to protect the consumer whereas the laws in the US tend to protect big business. I could give many examples but I think this whole contact vs. no contract discussion is a perfect example. imho. Just a personal observation... shoot me down if you like. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this? Rob That's what I call starting a flame (from a flame) Kosa - Un mundo mejor es posible - ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Dean wrote: I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no matter what phone you have. In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the service contract doesn't. Which part of a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE CONTRACT is hard to understand? I understand that statement ENTIRELY. Now that we're done beating down straw men, where have I ONCE mentioned anything about a free phone (with the exception of the use of quoting a previous poster, in responce to his use of the term) ? I have not. The average person walks into a cellular retailer, purchases a phone (A phone that is clearly marked as costing, say $199) signs up for the two year contract and recieves a discount on the phone and begins a service subscription. To say that he's getting a free phone is stupid - he got a $199 phone as a bonus for signing up for a contractual service (a voluntary service, by the way!). Did he pay for the phone? No. What he did was reduce the phone company's profit margin by making them expend more money in order to gain him as a customer of the recurring subscription for vioce/data services. If I walk into a retail outlet for my mobile service provider, I can pay for a phone WITHOUT service - I get no credits or refunds from the cellular provider. I pay for the phone. I can also have my OWN phone and walk into a cellular service provider and sign up for a contract of video/data service. The price I pay for that service is the same as the price paid by the person who took the discount on the phone. I am simply creating a higher profit revenue for that company in the process. -Kevin Why do americans have such a hard time grasping this? Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the contract. I don't think so. The only thing that changes in the deal is the profit margin of the company. The costs of the mobile carrier also indirectly include the costs of electricity but if I said I'm not buying electricity from you so I shouldn't pay the mark up from electricity I would just sound really really stupid. I'm well aware that the mobile providers pays for the phone and as a cost of doing business, charges more for their products. If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one. Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and buy a phone and sign up for a contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll see they're the same. You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit someone else's company is able to make on transactions. Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long enough to pay for the phone, And as long as that company pays taxes. And as long as that company advertises. And as long as that company complies with minimum wage laws. I am aware that when a company spends money, in order to be profitable they will reclaim those costs they will increase the price of their products. I have no problem with a company making profit. In fact, I would strongly PERFER it because companies that provide me services tend to vanish when they don't make money. or pay for the phone under the guise of an early termination fee. You entered into the contract of your own free will. Entering into that contract is merely claiming that your word has value. Why do you complain about agreeing to something and then being held to that agreement? The terms are stated up front, if you find them disagreeable negotiate the terms. If you can't, don't enter into the agreement. The termination fee covers the loss to the company's profit margin when you fail to complete your payment agreement. They do this so that it's easier for customers to get cellular service. The cost of putting up towers, hiring support staff, providing them with bathrooms, purchasing computers, hiring programmers and engineers and all of that is not small. To recoup that cost, they need to make a certain amount of money. Putting a phone in the hands of people who don't have phones ALSO costs money, and they need to ensure that if that customer fails to generate profit for them, they will not face a loss from doing business with that customer. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Please note this is an OFF LIST reply, since it is off topic for Openmoko mailing lists. On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I make an observation.. I am an American by birth but have lived all over the world.. In the middle of the Pacific, Korea, and now Europe (again). One of the things I have noticed is that the laws in Europe tend to protect the consumer whereas the laws in the US tend to protect big business. Why do you instantly assume there two sides are opposed to each other? Now, let me say I agree that corporations (definition: a legal entity recognized by the government for the purpose of shielding the individual for personal responsibillity for their actions) are in general a bad thing since it means if a person does something bad while conducting business they don't suffer penalties. If, however, a person running an honest business manages to be big, I see nothing wrong at ALL with them. Businesses (big AND small) provide services and products to people. They don't use violence to get what they want (even Microsoft doesn't send the police or military to your house for refusing to buy their licenses). If people said I don't like how you conduct business and I refuse to give you my money! those businesses (large and small) would stop doing that thing because they want to stay in business! I could give many examples but I think this whole contact vs. no contract discussion is a perfect example. imho. I was raised as a liberal Democrat. That said, I can sit back and (with the best of them) argue the liberal perspective about how big business takes advantage of the little guy/working class. I was also raised to believe that I should question everything and not accept what other people tell me without some proof. In EVERY arguement against big business there is one key factor - the government. How big might Microsoft be if the government (which funds every government school and university in just about every nation of the world) didn't pick teachers who demanded their assignments be submitted in .doc format? How many business might exist worldwide if the government didn't mandate licenses and zoning and all kinds of other things that prevent people (who create wealth by simply existing!) who have very little money from starting honest businesses and earning money by providing services and goods to people? How many deaths might be avoided if the government let people and their doctors determine if a medication was safe enough for their specific situation? Just a personal observation... shoot me down if you like. I don't mean to shoot you down. I just find it disconcerning how many people attack business owners, demand regulation which forces up prices and reduces control and than blame businesses for increased prices and decreased control. Hopefully some people will critically evaluate things... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
This is splitting hairs at a level the attorneys I know would be embarrassed to be a part of. Kevin Dean writes: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Dean wrote: I'm an American and your statement confuses me. Why is it obvious that a contract without a phone should be cheaper? The service (cellular connectivity for voice and/or data) is the same service no matter what phone you have. In the US, the price of service contracts doesn't change. The price of PHONES does when you agree to commit to a service contract but the service contract doesn't. Which part of a portion of the contract pays for you phone ... phone ISN'T FREE, YOU ARE FINANCING THE PURCHASE OF THE PHONE VIA THE CONTRACT is hard to understand? I understand that statement ENTIRELY. Now that we're done beating down straw men, where have I ONCE mentioned anything about a free phone (with the exception of the use of quoting a previous poster, in responce to his use of the term) ? I have not. The average person walks into a cellular retailer, purchases a phone (A phone that is clearly marked as costing, say $199) signs up for the two year contract and recieves a discount on the phone and begins a service subscription. So far, so good. To say that he's getting a free phone is stupid - he got a $199 phone When I signed up with T-Mobile, the market value of the phone they gave me wasn't displayed anywhere. It was described as a *free* phone. I did read the contract; if it said it anywhere, it was written in 1/2 point type around the margin like the Santa clause. as a bonus for signing up for a contractual service (a voluntary service, by the way!). Did he pay for the phone? No. What he did was reduce the phone company's profit margin by making them expend more money in order to gain him as a customer of the recurring subscription for vioce/data services. Making? I don't think so. I would have been happier if they'd reduced their profit margin the same amount by letting me walk out of the store with a naked SIM card and a lower monthly bill. Not allowing me that choice was entirely their decision. If I walk into a retail outlet for my mobile service provider, I can pay for a phone WITHOUT service - I get no credits or refunds from the cellular provider. I pay for the phone. Haven't tried it. The local stores sure don't advertise that option, and it doesn't really address whether I can buy a plan without a phone (and not pay for the phone). I can also have my OWN phone and walk into a cellular service provider and sign up for a contract of video/data service. The price I pay for that service is the same as the price paid by the person who took the discount on the phone. I am simply creating a higher profit revenue for that company in the process. And you see this as something other than being forced* to pay for the subsidized phone, without getting the phone? Your logic escapes me. *Using the term loosely. I realize nobody is forcing me to have the contract at all -- but given that I want the contract, paying the phone subsidy isn't optional. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
Kevin Dean writes: On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Because the price of the free phone is bundled into the price of the contract. I don't think so. The only thing that changes in the deal is the profit margin of the company. The costs of the mobile carrier also indirectly include the costs of electricity but if I said I'm not buying electricity from you so I shouldn't pay the mark up from electricity I would just sound really really stupid. I'm well aware that the mobile providers pays for the phone and as a cost of doing business, charges more for their products. Well, yes, you would -- they can't offer their service if they don't buy electricity. The can offer their service without buying the phone they give me. If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one. Walk into T-Mobile or ATT and buy a phone and sign up for a contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll see they're the same. That's my objection. You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit someone else's company is able to make on transactions. Very close, but not exactly (I mentioned hair-splitting in my last message). They, of course, have the right to adopt any pricing strategy they want, and they've done so. I, of course, have the right to argue that their strategy is not to the interest of this particular consumer, on the grounds that they are bundling goods and services together that I feel should be separate. And I'm doing exactly that. I feel like I'm back on my high school debating team. Not quite -- you're also committed to pay the inflated price long enough to pay for the phone, And as long as that company pays taxes. And as long as that company advertises. And as long as that company complies with minimum wage laws. Well, no. Whether they comply with the law (including taxes etc) has nothing whatever to do with how long I pay my contract. One hopes that their pricing structure enables them to do that, but it doesn't appear anywhere on my bill. I am aware that when a company spends money, in order to be profitable they will reclaim those costs they will increase the price of their products. I have no problem with a company making profit. In fact, I would strongly PERFER it because companies that provide me services tend to vanish when they don't make money. Oh, yes, I want them to make money for exactly the reasons you state. I don't want to pay for more of their profits than somebody who wants a subsidized phone, however. or pay for the phone under the guise of an early termination fee. You entered into the contract of your own free will. Entering into that contract is merely claiming that your word has value. Why do you complain about agreeing to something and then being held to that agreement? The terms are stated up front, if you find them disagreeable negotiate the terms. If you can't, don't enter into the agreement. There's a couple of issues being entangled here. I don't object to anything you state in your paragraph above. I do object to the lack of the option I prefer. The termination fee covers the loss to the company's profit margin when you fail to complete your payment agreement. They do this so that it's easier for customers to get cellular service. The cost of putting up towers, hiring support staff, providing them with bathrooms, purchasing computers, hiring programmers and engineers and all of that is not small. To recoup that cost, they need to make a certain amount of money. Putting a phone in the hands of people who don't have phones ALSO costs money, and they need to ensure that if that customer fails to generate profit for them, they will not face a loss from doing business with that customer. Yes, yes, yes. I really do understand all that. It has nothing whatever to do with whether a customer really ought to be able to pay less to get a SIM card with no phone than a SIM card with phone. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 8:55 PM, Kevin Dean [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please note this is an OFF LIST reply, since it is off topic for Openmoko mailing lists. Huh? I agree, this is off topic but your reply did go out to the entire list. On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Lowell Higley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I make an observation.. I am an American by birth but have lived all over the world.. In the middle of the Pacific, Korea, and now Europe (again). One of the things I have noticed is that the laws in Europe tend to protect the consumer whereas the laws in the US tend to protect big business. Why do you instantly assume there two sides are opposed to each other? Now, let me say I agree that corporations (definition: a legal entity recognized by the government for the purpose of shielding the individual for personal responsibillity for their actions) are in general a bad thing since it means if a person does something bad while conducting business they don't suffer penalties. If, however, a person running an honest business manages to be big, I see nothing wrong at ALL with them. Businesses (big AND small) provide services and products to people. They don't use violence to get what they want (even Microsoft doesn't send the police or military to your house for refusing to buy their licenses). If people said I don't like how you conduct business and I refuse to give you my money! those businesses (large and small) would stop doing that thing because they want to stay in business! First, the observation was a generalization.. notice the word tend. No assumptions were made. No one said the two sides were opposed. If that is something you drew from the observation then I think that is something you added...not me. Again, notice the words tend to. Nothing is absolute nor did I infer it was. Perhaps I should have used the verbage laws tend to favor and not protect? Would that make a difference? I could give many examples but I think this whole contact vs. no contract discussion is a perfect example. imho. I was raised as a liberal Democrat. That said, I can sit back and (with the best of them) argue the liberal perspective about how big business takes advantage of the little guy/working class. I was also raised to believe that I should question everything and not accept what other people tell me without some proof. In EVERY arguement against big business there is one key factor - the government. How big might Microsoft be if the government (which funds every government school and university in just about every nation of the world) didn't pick teachers who demanded their assignments be submitted in .doc format? How many business might exist worldwide if the government didn't mandate licenses and zoning and all kinds of other things that prevent people (who create wealth by simply existing!) who have very little money from starting honest businesses and earning money by providing services and goods to people? How many deaths might be avoided if the government let people and their doctors determine if a medication was safe enough for their specific situation? No one has asked you to accept anything. It was merely a personal observation. It was not some sort of law or edict I came down from the hills with to force on anyone. If you want evidence of why I believe my observation is correct, I'd be happy to share them with you. However, I don't think this is the time or place for it. Just a personal observation... shoot me down if you like. I don't mean to shoot you down. I just find it disconcerning how many people attack business owners, demand regulation which forces up prices and reduces control and than blame businesses for increased prices and decreased control. Hopefully some people will critically evaluate things... No one attacked business owners. I merely pointed out a difference *I* believe exists in the laws between the US and Europe. Not once did I ever say business(es), big or small, was doing anything wrong in either the US or Europe. Again, if you would like I will share with you why I believe my observation is true... I could also point out why I think both systems is good for consumers and business alike (they would obviously be different lists). However, I don't think it is appropriate to post to the list because it is wildly off topic, as you previously highlighted. Sometimes I think messages on this list get blown way out of proportion. Right now, I believe that is the case with this entire thread. If I offended anyone with my observation, I apologize, that was not my intent. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org
Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Hello everyone, I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy an openmoko is the freedom. But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many possible buyers, for purely economical reasons. I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price. Best wishes _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Jorge . wrote: Hello everyone, I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy an openmoko is the freedom. But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many possible buyers, for purely economical reasons. I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price. Best wishes _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community No, it won't make the Moko more expensive. You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year contract minimum. The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko. In other words, if the Moko came with a 2 year contract it would basically be free. Please actually compare apples to apples. - Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 7:00 PM, Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone, I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy an openmoko is the freedom. But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many possible buyers, for purely economical reasons. *sigh* The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract. Cheers, Federico ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Federico Lorenzi wrote: The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract. ... and per my last Email, the lack of subsidies for the Freerunner, where you still need a voice/data contract, actually costs more. But the extra cost is worth the freedom of doing whatever I want with my Freerunner. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
What the hell?! Seems like a lot of people STILL don't get it: The iPhone does NOT cost 199$. It's a marketing lie. The actual price is 199$ + a two year contract. That makes it probably closer to 1000$. The Neo is still very very cheap compared to that, especially considering how few Neo phones are being made at the moment. Ortwin On 6/10/08, Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello everyone, I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy an openmoko is the freedom. But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many possible buyers, for purely economical reasons. I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price. Best wishes _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me the price advantage over an iPhone is very real. Ortwin On 6/10/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Taylor wrote: You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year contract minimum. Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware. And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of going to Apple to help pay for the hardware. Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price of their phones to lock you into a contract. Just my $0.02. What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software. That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
You've forgotten about the extra grand and a half in contract charges. (that's just in the US, I hate to think what they'll be like here in Canada). Seems inexpensive to me :) On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote: Hello everyone, I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy an openmoko is the freedom. But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many possible buyers, for purely economical reasons. I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price. Best wishes _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
*sigh* The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract. Just look Ebay, amazon, etc... you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the price they have with ATT, in fact there is no ATT in my country, an i could buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the FreeRunner!!). I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G _ Get your fix of news, sports, entertainment and more on MSN Mobile http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Ortwin Regel wrote: There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me the price advantage over an iPhone is very real. Ortwin Same here. The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it. Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Yeh it is all relative to your country and usage pattern. In the UK you can get a prepaid SIM with data capped at £1 per day. I don't need a contract (I don't make many calls/sms) so the cost of the Freerunner is a lot more attractive to me! Especially at it seems Apple will now make you activate the phone on purchase eliminating cracking and sticking in your prepaid SIM which is what many did with the current model. John. 2008/6/10 Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me the price advantage over an iPhone is very real. Ortwin On 6/10/08, ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Taylor wrote: You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year contract minimum. Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware. And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of going to Apple to help pay for the hardware. Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price of their phones to lock you into a contract. Just my $0.02. What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software. That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are cheaper contracts if you don't get a phone with them in Germany. No idea what the situation in the US is. (It's probably godawful... :-/) Personally, I use a prepaid SIM card so I pay no monthly fees at all. Much cheaper for me than any contract. So for me the price advantage over an iPhone is very real. Good for you. It's not the case for others. I'm going to have a cell phone for the next 2 years, and prepaid plans cost me plenty when I add in things like text messaging and data. Atop of that, my family has 10,000 rollover minutes just sitting there. For me, it'd be $40/month to jump on that plan, and $200 for the phone. The monthly fee is fairly constant, no matter where I go (and probably higher outside of ATT than in), and the 2 year contract is irrelevant (I'll be using a phone for the next 2 yrs, and in the US a contract is pretty standard), so it really does just come down to $200 vs whatever another phone costs. Sheesh. We get it, we just don't care. -- H. Lally Singh Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science Virginia Tech ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Jorge . wrote: Just look Ebay, amazon, etc... you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the price they have with ATT, in fact there is no ATT in my country, an i could buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the FreeRunner!!). I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G _ And this will surely happen with the Moko too. So what's your point? Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *sigh* The 3G iPhone does not cost $199. It costs $199 when subsidized through a 2 year ATT contract. Thats like saying my Nokia E51 costs nothing, because I got it free with a 2 year contract. Just look Ebay, amazon, etc... you can buy unlocked iPhones for almost the price they have with ATT, in fact there is no ATT in my country, an i could buy one on many shops in the downtown (dont misunderstand me, i want the FreeRunner!!). I am sure it will happen again with the iPhone 3G No, it won't. When you buy a 3G iPhone, you will actually have to take out a contract there and then at the Apple store. It's not like how it was before when anyone could buy it, and just bypass activation. They will not sell you an iPhone unless you take out a contract. Cheers, Federico ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
I think what Ian is trying to say is that contract or not, you still have to pay for your phone service and data service. So if you spend US$50/mo on a data plan, it does come out to be more expensive with the FreeRunner if and *only if* you plan to use the phone for two years. if you plan on ditching it in a year, then the FreeRunner is much cheaper (you have that contract buy out fee). Thankfully, I have a pay as go SIM card that allows me to use GPRS. I pay about 10 Euros (US$15) a month with my current total usage (voice and data). Somehow I see that going way up when I get the FreeRunner just with the data I'll be using. I pay roughly 4 Euro Cents per 10kb. In this case, the iPhone is way more expensive than an iPhone. On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Dave O'Connor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You've forgotten about the extra grand and a half in contract charges. (that's just in the US, I hate to think what they'll be like here in Canada). Seems inexpensive to me :) On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote: Hello everyone, I dont pretend to start a flamewar of FreeRunner vs iPhone. Everyone knows their advantages and disadvantages and at least for me the main reason to buy an openmoko is the freedom. But the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and it automatically makes the OpenMoko phone expensive, because they have similar characteristics... this could discourage many possible buyers, for purely economical reasons. I dont know if the FreeRunner price can be changed at this moment, but now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price. Best wishes _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware. No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet and they dont cost $960 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass production, not only for geeks like us who love free software _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Lowell Higley wrote: I think what Ian is trying to say is that contract or not, you still have to pay for your phone service and data service. Exactly. Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service. Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from ATT) you *must* buy into a contract. My point was basically that if you want to use a lot of voice/data on the Freerunner, you're probably going to spend the same dollar amount on the voice/data plan as you would with the iPhone, so in that case, yes, the iPhone is cheaper. If you can manage everything you do only on pay-as-you-go service, then it's possible that the Freerunner will be cheaper after two years. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 13:15 -0700, Lowell Higley wrote: In this case, the iPhone is way more expensive than an iPhone. ^^^ I always knew there is some conspiracy going on with Apple ;-p ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
... and per my last Email, the lack of subsidies for the Freerunner, where you still need a voice/data contract, actually costs more. But the extra cost is worth the freedom of doing whatever I want with my Freerunner. -id Don't forget you've always got the option to use the Freerunner without a voice/data plan at all if you don't mind only using VOIP in Wifi networks. Then its a bargain! -Greg ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
Hello, This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in order: 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the good reasons to buy one :) 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone. 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones and selling them without ATT contracts around the world (check ebay before telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is legal or not. 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough? furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a freephone have to be competitive in price, not only in quality and philosophy. Best wishes _ Get your fix of news, sports, entertainment and more on MSN Mobile http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Jorge . wrote: No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet and they dont cost $960 Thats ONLY because you can buy an iPhone right now WITHOUT a contract. You won't be getting the same phoen pricing with the new iPhone, that is guaranteed - to break a contract you will pay the penalty which will be greater than the iPhone is worth to begin with. You aren't comparing apples to apples still. - Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Jorge . wrote: No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet and they dont cost $960 You're right, an unlocked iPhone will likely cost more than $199 (for the 8GB model), but you still need to have the data/voice plan. If *all* you're comparing is the cost of the phone hardware, then you'd have to find out how much an iPhone actually costs ATT to purchase from Apple. We're all arguing the same thing, just from different perspectives. At the end of the day, you still need to buy voice/data service, whether you buy a Freerunner or iPhone. Since, from the sounds of it, you cannot (yet) buy the iPhone on a pay-as-you-go service, it's likely that the Freerunner will be a cheaper alternative, but ONLY when using a pay-as-you-go service. (at least here in the US) But if you're going to buy into a voice/data plan, you're going to ultimately spend more cash on the Freerunner: For example, I pay $39.99/month for 450 daytime minutes and 5000 evening/weekend minutes every month. I pay an additional $39.99 per month for an unlimited data plan. My total monthly cost is $79.98 plus taxes and fees, so let's round it up to $90 per month. Over the course of two years, my $90/month totals $2,160. If I buy an iPhone, my total cost after two years is $199 plus $2160, or $2359. If I buy a Freerunner, my total cost after two years is $399 plus $2160, or $2558. If I manage to get in on a group sale, my total cost after two years drops $30. So if you plan to get on a monthly voice/data plan with ATT here in the USA, yes, the iPhone will be cheaper after a two year period is over. Of course, if you start buying iPhone apps from iTunes over the two year period, then the iPhone could quickly become much more expensive than the Freerunner. My point in the last few Emails is that the extra $200 (or $170 on a group sale), is worth it to me to have a completely unlocked phone where I can write and manage my own applications, have industry-accepted open-source programs ported to run on the Freerunner, have those applications for free, etc. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
ian douglas wrote: Exactly. Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service. Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from ATT) you *must* buy into a contract. Sorry, to clarify. To clear up my previous post you are comparing to different things: A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract. Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T SUBSIDIZED. Please, compare equal things. If you want to compare a subsidized iPhone then compare a subsidized moko which will be free with any reasonable access plan. The moko is cheaper PERIOD and you won't be getting the new iPhones on ebay for 200 quid because YOU CAN'T BUY THEM WITHOUT A CONTRACT. If you want to buy a $600 dollar subsidized phone, fine go ahead. Why are you posting nonsense here? Goddamn. You guys make it really hard not to flame everyone on such simple calculations. Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Greg Bonett wrote: Don't forget you've always got the option to use the Freerunner without a voice/data plan at all if you don't mind only using VOIP in Wifi networks. Then its a bargain! Excellent point, Greg! (I don't recall if the new iPhone has WiFi to do VoIP calls) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Are you sure about that? According to Engadget [1] you will have to activate the contract in shop which seems to suggest a pretty bum deal if you plan on then unlocking it and selling it at $200. If you do I will buy one from you at that price ;) http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-purchase-and-activation-will-be-in-store-only/ 2008/6/10 Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [snip] Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass production, not only for geeks like us who love free software _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Robert Taylor wrote: Please, compare equal things. Why are you posting nonsense here? Rob, I'm not the one who posted the original article, and I take offense to you saying that my thoughts are 'nonsense' -- that sort of attitude isn't helpful to anybody. In a previous post, you said: The iPhone is godawful expensive no matter how you slice it. In another, you said: The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko. We're not talking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're comparing how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner. While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations. -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
Jorge . wrote: Hello, This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in order: Okay. 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the good reasons to buy one :) Right! 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone. Not true, the iphone is subsidized the moko isn't. If the moko was subsidized it would be free. This is TRUE FOR EVERYONE. 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones and selling them without ATT contracts around the world (check ebay before telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is legal or not. Again, not true. On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract. If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than the $600 the phone is worth. If you want to go ahead and throw away $600 bucks at the break of a contract and sell it on ebay go ahead. Just stop posting nonsense. 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough? Not clear at all. If you were there would be no thread. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare a subsidized iphone to a subsized moko, or unsubsidized iphone to an unsubsidized moko. There is NO POSSIBILITY of exception to this. Just because a moko is not available as a subsidized device right now is irrelevant as its not available on the market. More to the point the new iphone isn't available yet, just pricing. furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a freephone have to be competitive in price, not only in quality and philosophy. This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and understand the reality of the situation. Just compare equal things and stop posting flawed arguments and there is no thread. Best wishes _ Get your fix of news, sports, entertainment and more on MSN Mobile http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
As someone who owns an unlocked iPhone I understand how 3) works on the old iPhone. What is not clear is the deal on the new iPhone. The reports are that the person who buys it will have to enter the contract when they buy it. Note, this is different than 3). The reality is we don't know for sure what will happen in the different regions yet. Therefore it is not as clear as you state. John. 2008/6/10 Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello, This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in order: 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the good reasons to buy one :) 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone. 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones and selling them without ATT contracts around the world (check ebay before telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is legal or not. 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough? furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a freephone have to be competitive in price, not only in quality and philosophy. Best wishes _ Get your fix of news, sports, entertainment and more on MSN Mobile http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
The software is Free, the hardware is Free but not in the beer sense. Look, if om don't make enough money there is no gta04. It has shortcomings but it's still much better an idea than the iphone. Your software will be free, no 30% cut for developers to go to apple. Your abilities to use the device are free. It's a trade off, pay now or pay later through being locked down or having to give your developer cut to apple. Your choice. On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Jorge . wrote: Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware. No doubt, but you can buy unlocked iPhones on many places, including internet and they dont cost $960 What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass production, not only for geeks like us who love free software _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:57 PM, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract. Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T SUBSIDIZED. Moko phone $200?!?!?! Did I miss something? crossing fingers ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
ian douglas wrote: alking about what's subsidized and what's not. We're comparing how much money have I paid out of my pocket after two years to compare a 2-year contract requirement versus owning a Freerunner. Well yes we are. If the moko was subsidized it would effectively be free. Just compare equal things. The moko isnt' available as part of a subsidized package and according to postings it will take at least a year to get there. Just stop comparing unequal things. If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package and THEN we can talk. Stop talking nonsense please. Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Is what they always say, like microsoft saying their serial codes will not be hacked... but after one week someone finds a hack that activates the phone without ATT and two weeks after you see unlocked phones in the street, i have no idea where the dealers get them, but you find the unlocked phones just a little more expensive than the phones in contract, and when the situation is out of control, Apple starts selling phones without contract... I am not guessing, it happened with the first generation of iPhones Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:07:07 +0100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price Are you sure about that? According to Engadget [1] you will have to activate the contract in shop which seems to suggest a pretty bum deal if you plan on then unlocking it and selling it at $200. If you do I will buy one from you at that price ;) http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/iphone-3g-purchase-and-activation-will-be-in-store-only/ 2008/6/10 Jorge . : [snip] Of course, thats why I want a FreeRunner!! but in the next months surely you can buy an unlocked iPhone 3G on ebay or the chinatown for $200 USD, and it affects the sales of FreeRunner, remember that GT02 is designed for mass production, not only for geeks like us who love free software _ Stop squinting -- view your photos on your TV. Learn more. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/default.mspx?deepLink=photos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community _ Send funny voice messages packed with tidbits from MSN. Everyone wants to be ready. http://www.noonewantstolookdumb.com?OCID=T001MSN54N1613A ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On 06/10/2008 06:21 PM, ian douglas wrote: While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations. Well, ATT says that the new subsidy will cost them $600M. So, I assume he just divided that figure by the total number of these new iPhones that ATT will ever sell and added that to the $199 (with contract) consumer price for the new iPhone. ;) http://news.smh.com.au/technology/att-to-take-earnings-hit-from-iphone-subsidies-20080610-2o3s.html Mike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
Robert Taylor wrote: On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract. If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than the $600 the phone is worth. The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway) furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a freephone have to be competitive in price, not only in quality and philosophy. This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and understand the reality of the situation. not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you pay anyway _ Do more with your photos with Windows Live Photo Gallery. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_photos_022008 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Michael T. Dean wrote: On 06/10/2008 06:21 PM, ian douglas wrote: While I'm not trying to encourage any bitter feelings whatsoever, I'm curious how you calculated the iPhone costs twice as much as the Freerunner when you look at the bottom line of how many dollars you've spent after two years. Please elaborate on your calculations. Are you serious? Here, how about this calculation: BUY THE NEW IPHONE SEPARATELY then add it to your monthly bill. Thats how. The moko isn't subsidized, if it were then you would be comparing the following: $199 + contract vs $0 + plus contract. Please stop comparing nonsensical situations. Robert ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
ian douglas pisze: [...] For example, I pay $39.99/month for 450 daytime minutes and 5000 evening/weekend minutes every month. I pay an additional $39.99 per month for an unlimited data plan. My total monthly cost is $79.98 plus taxes and fees, so let's round it up to $90 per month. Over the course of two years, my $90/month totals $2,160. [...] I cant believe that there is no cheaper plans when you are not buying any phone with it? is this really a case? if it is so, blame your operator/us mobile market/god or all of them... here in old Europe you can buy plans which are significantly cheaper where you not buying a new phone with it... ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jorge . wrote: Hello, This post is going further my expectations :) so, lets put the things in order: Okay. 1) FreeRunner and its freedom is the best, so we dont need an argue about the good reasons to buy one :) Right! 2) In countries where you have to sign a two year contract, the iPhone 3G will be more expensive at the end, but this is not the situation of everyone. Not true, the iphone is subsidized the moko isn't. If the moko was subsidized it would be free. This is TRUE FOR EVERYONE. 3) Apple will say all time that you will have to sign a contract to get an iPhone, but in the reality they do nothing to stop people unlocking phones and selling them without ATT contracts around the world (check ebay before telling again you have to sign a contract!!!), because they get money for that phones anyway. So I expect iPhones 3G being sold for $199 USD without any contract around the world, and for most people does not matter if this is legal or not. Again, not true. On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract. If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than the $600 the phone is worth. I am sorry for contraddicting, but you can get jailbraked iPhones for around 200$,and the firmware of the 2.0 is already jailbraked since some time, and even futher, some people are already trying to compil linux for the iPhone 2.0. If you want to go ahead and throw away $600 bucks at the break of a contract and sell it on ebay go ahead. Just stop posting nonsense. 4) FreeRunner is a product, and need sales to survive. I will buy a Freerunner instead an iPhone because i want a free phone, but many people would prefer to buy an unlocked-hacked-nocontract iPhone on ebay for $199 than an OpenMoko for $399. am I clear enough? Not clear at all. If you were there would be no thread. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare a subsidized iphone to a subsized moko, or unsubsidized iphone to an unsubsidized moko. There is NO POSSIBILITY of exception to this. Just because a moko is not available as a subsidized device right now is irrelevant as its not available on the market. More to the point the new iphone isn't available yet, just pricing. furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a freephone have to be competitive in price, not only in quality and philosophy. This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and understand the reality of the situation. Just compare equal things and stop posting flawed arguments and there is no thread. Best wishes _ Get your fix of news, sports, entertainment and more on MSN Mobile http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- George Burns - You can't help getting older, but you don't have to get old. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:57:04 -0700 Robert Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: ian douglas wrote: Exactly. Whether you get the iPhone, a Freerunner, a Nokia, a Samsung, whatever... you still need to pay for the cellular service. Yes, it's cheaper if you buy pay-as-you-go service, and yes, if you buy the 'locked' iPhone (retail box from ATT) you *must* buy into a contract. Sorry, to clarify. To clear up my previous post you are comparing to different things: A $600 SUBSIDIZED phone on a 2 year contract ($200 up front cost to subscriber) VS a $200 moko UNSUBSIDIZED phone PLUS a 2 year contract. Of course they are bloody the same price up front, THE MOKO ISN'T SUBSIDIZED. Please, compare equal things. If you want to compare a subsidized iPhone then compare a subsidized moko which will be free with any reasonable access plan. slight catch. a subsidised neo likely wouldn't be open. subsidies are given to phones because they get locked down to: only work on that operators network disable features so people must use the operator to send/get data only allow software bought from your operator to run etc. etc. i'm not saying these are specifically happening on specific phones, but this kind of thing is what gets a phone subsidised down to $0. a freerunner subsidised would now cramp your style (freedom). do you REALLY want that? :) so in the end the only thing you can do is compare it to a full-priced iphone or any other competition that is not locked down in any way by/to a carrier. then you can compare. :) The moko is cheaper PERIOD and you won't be getting the new iPhones on ebay for 200 quid because YOU CAN'T BUY THEM WITHOUT A CONTRACT. If you want to buy a $600 dollar subsidized phone, fine go ahead. Why are you posting nonsense here? Goddamn. You guys make it really hard not to flame everyone on such simple calculations. Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:56:44 -0700 ian douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Robert Taylor wrote: You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year contract minimum. Granted, the Apple and ATT partnership greatly subsidizes the cost, because of the $960 ($40/mo unlimited data plan for 2 yrs) to $2400 ($100/mo unlimited voice/data for 2 yrs) that you'd spend with ATT also helps cover the hidden cost of the hardware. And while I personally don't care much for the iPhone, you also have to sign up for a voice/data plan to use the Freerunner... You're still paying the $960-$2400 over two years, but there's not offset of cost of the hardware to the consumer. The monthly fees you pay that doesn't pay for the actual use of the cell network is 100% profit to ATT instead of going to Apple to help pay for the hardware. Same with TMobile, and I imagine any other carrier who offsets the price of their phones to lock you into a contract. Just my $0.02. What you're paying the extra money for, for the Freerunner, is the freedom of doing whatever you want with your phone. Sure, the iPhone has their SDK released, but all applications still have to go through Apple to operate on your phone -- I don't know if the SDK even allows you to build an application just for your own iPhone to test it. Also, their mobile OS is closed source -- you have no access to hack or tweak it to do *exactly* what you want it to. You can't change the applications that come with the phone, you can't do a lot of things. Sure, they have lots of eye candy and some solid-looking applications, but once we as a community port applications to the Freerunner hardware to run on OpenMoko, we'll be leaps and bounds ahead of the iPhone software. That, to me, is worth the extra purchase price. this is mostly thanks to the fact that carriers in the usa have no options of byo (bring your own) handset. they always subsidise something and thus have it built into their pricing model. other carriers elsewhere in the world have different prices if all you do is buy a sim card... :) -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Robert Taylor wrote: Just compare equal things. We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of equal. Hear me out: By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner, and using ATT for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over two years no matter which phone they buy. Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following: the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price. He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies. The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself. The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199. Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399. If they choose the $199 iPhone, they get locked into a two year contract, likely paying $100 per month for a voice/data plan. Over 24 months, their total cost is going to be about $2600. If they choose the $399 Freerunner, they aren't locked into a minimum 2 year contract, but they'll still need monthly service for the same 24-month period. As I mentioned in a previous message, a plain voice/data plan with ATT is still going to cost $90 or more depending on the plan you pick. After 24 months, they've still paid $2600. That looks pretty 'equal' to me, and *I* believe the average consumer will feel the same way. If you don't agree with that, then you and I simply don't agree on it, but that still doesn't warrant calling someone's communication nonsense simply because you don't agree with them. The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys pay as you go minutes/data instead of a monthly plan. The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and start buying applications through iTunes for their phone. If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package and THEN we can talk. But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, the consumer isn't paying more for the phone since they'd still have to pay for the same voice/data service to use a Freerunner. It just means ATT makes more profit on the voice/data plan because they haven't subsidized anything. And you still haven't followed up with how you calculated the iPhone to cost 'twice' as much as the Freerunner. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:16:40 + Jorge . [EMAIL PROTECTED] babbled: Robert Taylor wrote: On the new Iphones, you HAVETO get a 2 year contract. If you decide to quit you will pay a fee that will total up greater than the $600 the phone is worth. The first iPhone was released june 29/2007 and the first hacked that allow you to use it with any operator was announced on july 9/2007. It will happen again and unlocked iPhones 3G will be available, it does not matter if the first bunch are stolen, second hand or refurbished, it short time everyone will be able to buy an iPhone 3G without contract for almost the same price than it contract. Then we will be able to compare unsubsidized iphones with moko. until that moment lets end the flame :-) but if I am right the iPhone will be cheaper even unsubsidized. (although i would buy a moko anyway) not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was assumed that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). so they sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that. now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of not completely cover it and then some. sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier store, and some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i guarantee that that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey have to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money. as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are going to be much more than $199. furthermore the freedom, there is a war for the smartphones market and a freephone have to be competitive in price, not only in quality and philosophy. This is only true if you do what you are insisting on doing, comparing things that are not of equal value. While it is fine for consumers to be ignorant of these facts and actually think your argument is valid, it's not correct on this thread as you are clearly educated and understand the reality of the situation. not equal value? Moko, iPhone, iRiver, Blackberry... we are talking about smartphones, and money is money. If you buy an orange, and apple or a pinable you pay with money!! every fruit have advantages and disadvantages, but you pay anyway _ Do more with your photos with Windows Live Photo Gallery. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_photos_022008 ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
ian douglas wrote: By my calculations below, a consumer buying an iPhone or a Freerunner, and using ATT for a voice/data plan, is going to spend about $2600 over two years no matter which phone they buy. Jorge's original posting in this thread said the following: the new iPhone 3G price was announced, and the 8 Gigas version will cost only $199 USD and now the FreeRunner is less competitive than the iPhone in terms of price. He was asking about straight out-of-pocket expense, not about subsidies. The end consumer is only going to see the price tag on the phone itself. EXACTLY!! a GNU/Linux geek will see the difference, but GTA02 is for mass production, and i am afraid the price will discourage buyers for the same reasons your are telling The consumer will look at the iPhone and see a price of $199. Then they'll look at the Freerunner and see a price tag of $399. EXACTLY AGAIN! The Freerunner would perhaps be cheaper if the consumer buys pay as you go minutes/data instead of a monthly plan. Excepting if you can buy an unlocked iPhone for less than $399 USD, because in most countries you can buy pay as you go minutes for any phone. The Freerunner would *definitely* be cheaper if they buy the iPhone and start buying applications through iTunes for their phone. Of course, iTunes aplications are horribly expensive and non-free!! If you want to compare the total cost, compare the total cost of buying the new iphone UNLOCKED at retail cost (you can't) plus the data package and THEN we can talk. But the consumer isn't asked to pay the full unlocked price of the iPhone. Just because ATT subsidizes the phone by lessening the profit they make on the $100/month you'll pay them for using their service, Also true _ Get your fix of news, sports, entertainment and more on MSN Mobile http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
ian douglas wrote: Robert Taylor wrote: Just compare equal things. We'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of equal. Hear me out: Hi! :-) I really do mean well but I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong. If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because the moko would be cheaper. It's that simple. Stop trying to skew the numbers please. Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: not so simple. i think he business plan is changing because before this happened with the 1st iphone. people could buy without contract. it was assumed that the phone lock would force people to get a contract anyway and apple bore the risk by losing out on their cut of the carrier's revenue (att). so they sold it at $399 or $499 etc. and din't get any money from att after that. now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of not completely cover it and then some. sure - some (a very few) phones will somehow be smuggled from the factory or from shipments before they get to an apple or att or other carrier store, and some may be sold under the counter without contract - but i guarantee that that likely is a business losing proposition for anyone as they get a rebate once they sign you on a contract. selling without a contract will mean hey have to jack up the price to cover the lost rebate money. as such - legal, legitimate and easy to get 3g iphones WITHOUT contract are going to be much more than $199. Precisely. And if you want to quit your contract you will pay A FEE that will make your phone far more expensive than $600. I wish people would stop saying nonsense. It really doesn't matter if you unlock the phone or not, the person that bought it will end up paying the full retail price of it no matter what, quitting contract or not quitting contract. To sign the contract is to agree to finance the retail cost of the v.2.0. You will not be seeing 2.0 versions on ebay for $199 that are legit. Those that aren't legit are either stolen, knockoffs or refurbished, in which case who gives a damn, they are stolen, knockoffs or refurbished and not in competition. The math simply doesn't add up fellas. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
No, it won't make the Moko more expensive. You pay through the nose for it because you HAVETO sign up for a 2 year contract minimum. The iPhone is AT LEAST twice as expensive as the Moko. In other words, if the Moko came with a 2 year contract it would basically be free. Please actually compare apples to apples. - Rob I don't know where my NDA stands on this. (I dont have the signed copy back yet and I guess i wont be posting any more on this once I get it:-) I discussed with a carrier in India and they were as the first offer willing to offer unlimitid data on GPRS/Edge and free incomming for *one year* for about $70 (more than half their normal rate) if their connection is sold with the Freerunner. So a more logical comparison (if you have to compare prices) would be *Freerunner at $539 with two year unlimited data connection with the cost of the I-phone+2 years unlimited data only connection* (I am not aware of the prices as the I-phone plan pricing has not been announced in my country) Rakshat ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: now it changes with the 3g iphone. you must sign up when you buy. sure - you can now take that phone, unlock it, re-sell it, but you are stuck with a contract you must keep paying for... with no phone to use on that contract unless you buy another phone - outright. there will be contract termination clauses if you want to cancel then and this will help cover the subsidy - of not completely cover it and then some... Well I guess this thread is probably dead, lots of good points made. I'll stop here as I don't think I can provide anything usefull on the price comparison. Carsten I agree with your point. I think its safe to say that if our technically saavy and intelligent users cannot tell the difference between a retail and subsidized phone its a given joe six pack won't spend the time to research it any further. My hope is that we can all parrot the same message so when shit hits the fans and fucking noobs start flooding in here we can have toe a single line and explain to them the difference one noob at a time - just like the ubuntu folks are doing on irc quite well. I think I've failed in convincing any people here so that one is lost. So let's see if we can salvage some of the back and forth and see if we can get some brainstorming going ... here is a brainstorm I had in another thread about what we can do to differentiate the moko. It's clear if we (well frankly there is no we, its fic and their team, but i'll pretend there is a we to encourage a free platform) get too close to trying to compete on iphones terms or redmonds terms we will lose. How about if we try to change the playing field a bit, one release at a time. Here is one way I thought we can do it ... please feel free to comment or tear it appart: Yes. I propose a modular approach. 1 phone many external similar to this idea: http://www.icontrolpad.com/ Additionally, there is a certain cool factor to having a single unit but many docking stations if done right, for example: Quick preview: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3871478989.html Their overbearing website: http://www.buglabs.net/products Buglabs is doing something really cool, but you gotta code in java and it doesn't fit into a pocket (well it does fit in a really big pocket). It's pretty clear Mokos core group of users are very demanding, and something like that would allow for everyone to be happy. However, why I really think this could be a really great approach for the moko is the 'Hey Cool!' factor. Can you picture the conversation when you meet up with a buddy hey whats that on your moko? oh it's my new gamepod. COL! can i try it on my moko? sure ... *CLICK* ... here you go. COOL! It also reduces the dev costs for moko, it allows it to remain a smartphone and not move from that niche, reduces the number of formats that people will be demanding the moko be made in and will start to establish a hardware addon ecosystem beyond what is already being developed. What the moko manufacturers then can pull is a NIKE. Instead of relying purely on sales of the moko, they can turn them selves into an RD and marketing company and not only produce their own hardware if they want to, but also licence officially supported modules and addons to control quality and get a cut of each sale. Also when usb3 comes along you can offload all sorts of stuff to that, such as gfx co-porcessing if you want so all of a sudden you can get ati into the picture with their completely documented processors and really start something interesting. Just some brianstorming ... Rob We haveto OUT THINK them, NOT OUTCOMPETE them. The first one allows us to define the playing field, the second one leaves us catching up with the Joneses (note: this is what iSteve has done to quite a remarkable success - dell is left shoveling small margins while apple rakes in the cash on the high end). What are your thoughts? Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price - Things clear
Robert Taylor wrote: Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: Precisely. And if you want to quit your contract you will pay A FEE that will make your phone far more expensive than $600. I wish people would stop saying nonsense. It really doesn't matter if you unlock the phone or not, the person that bought it will end up paying the full retail price of it no matter what, quitting contract or not quitting contract. To sign the contract is to agree to finance the retail cost of the v.2.0. You will not be seeing 2.0 versions on ebay for $199 that are legit. Those that aren't legit are either stolen, knockoffs or refurbished, in which case who gives a damn, they are stolen, knockoffs or refurbished and not in competition. The math simply doesn't add up fellas. Bah! Ignore this please ... I hit reply to the wrong thread!!! My bad, appologies. Rob ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Robert Taylor wrote: I'm not dropping this. You still have it wrong. Hi Robert, I'm not trying to win the overall argument, I just want you to acknowledge that my position is as valid as your own, as I do for your position in point #2 below. Here's my thinking, please feel free to agree or disagree and explain why. #1: Based on Steve's recent Emails talking about production time lines, I'd wager that the Freerunner will hit the market within a week or two of the 3G iPhone. There have been discussions over and over about how the Freerunner is not going to be marketed as an iPhone killer, but the fact it'll be released around the same time may create that sort of thinking again, which as Robert states in another Email, we'll have to clarify for the f___ing noobs. #2: A quote from your last Email: If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because the moko would be cheaper. It's that simple. Yes, I agree with you on this, it's that simple, you're absolutely correct, and the out-of-pocket expense would be higher to own an iPhone. *IF* the moko was subsidized -- to use your own words. So *yes* if were having this discussion next summer when someone theorized (was it you yourself) that the Freerunner or some other GTA device might be subsidized by a major carrier, then I absolutely whole-heartedly agree that getting a Freerunner would be cheaper, in terms of up-front cost alone, than buying an iPhone. #3: Come July 11th, 2008 when the iPhone is released, you *have* to agree with me on this: the Freerunner is NOT going to be subsidized by any carrier. It will cost you $399 (or $369 in a group sale) to purchase a Freerunner from OpenMoko, plus tax/shipping, period. And it will cost you $199 for the cheaper iPhone at a store you have to drive to, period. #4: Jorge's original message had nothing to do with subsidies, it was solely based on a face-value perspective of When the iPhone is released in July 2008, how much money comes out of my pocket to buy a Freerunner versus iPhone, plus a data/voice plan?, and nothing else. His point was that the out-of-pocket cost, in July 2008, would be higher for a Freerunner by $200, which is absolutely correct. #5: Taking #2, #3 and #4 into consideration: if you buy an iPhone or a Freerunner in July 2008, over the course of the next 24 months (to compare apples to apples of a 2-yr contract versus 2 years of non-contract service), you'll spend approximately the same total dollar value no matter which phone you purchase. iPhone: $199 + ($100 x 24mo) = ~$2600 Freerunner: $399 + ($90 x 24mo) = ~$2600 So maybe I'm not going to convince you either (per your comment in the other things clear message thread) that my perspective is as valid as your own. I'm simply trying to get you to acknowledge that when the Freerunner is sold in the summer of 2008, around the same time the iPhone is being sold, there is *no* subsidy on the Freerunner, therefore Jorge's initial question/concern is correct: the iPhone is cheaper to purchase up front. My follow-up though was that after two years of owning each phone, the total amount of money paid will be approximately equal. And Robert, I'm still curious how you determined that in this same scenario (buying the phones in July 2008 with no subsidy on the Freerunner) that the overall dollar total you spend would be double if you choose the iPhone. Third request: please elaborate. :o) -id ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price
Robert Taylor writes: If the moko was subsidized out of pocket expense would be less because the moko would be cheaper. Well, yes, but when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it. So the economics (as I faced them) were subsidized phone vs. s. p. + moko. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
