Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 at 11:16, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> I'd guess that if the spindle encoder is  such that on each servo period 
> event,  that if the position of the encoder isn't electrically determined by 
> another encoder edge,  then a calculated value based on where the system 
> thinks it is will be reported as the position.

Yes. It "fllls in" the stairsteps in cases where there hasn't been an
edge seen since the last servo period.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[John Dammeyer]

What does this actually do assuming I using  the latest master?
net spindle-revs<=   hm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.position-interpolated

I'd guess that if the spindle encoder is  such that on each servo period event, 
 that if the position of the encoder isn't electrically determined by another 
encoder edge,  then a calculated value based on where the system thinks it is 
will be reported as the position. 
John

> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: August 15, 2023 1:03 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping
> 
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 at 01:11, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> > It's why I'm filtering.  And yes. I agree, at this slow a speed I suspect
> > what I will find is two different velocities reported from edge to edge.
> 
> Rigid tapping uses the encoder-position, not the encoder velocity.
> 
> (And I wouldn't suggest filtering that in the HAL)
> 
> If you are using the latest master then you will have a pin
> ...position-interpolated that you can substitute into this line:
> net spindle-revs <=   hm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.position
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[andy pugh]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 at 01:11, John Dammeyer  wrote:

> It's why I'm filtering.  And yes. I agree, at this slow a speed I suspect
> what I will find is two different velocities reported from edge to edge.

Rigid tapping uses the encoder-position, not the encoder velocity.

(And I wouldn't suggest filtering that in the HAL)

If you are using the latest master then you will have a pin
...position-interpolated that you can substitute into this line:
net spindle-revs <=   hm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.position

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[John Dammeyer]

Yes.  That's way faster tapping than I've done.  I'm going to have to try
tapping that quickly just to keep up.  ;-)
But I'm not so concerned about being able to tap slowly.  Just that I want
to see the behaviour and how the trajectory planner handles hand turning the
spindle and have the Z axis track.   
Now seeing the waveforms from the velocity out over the MESA board I can see
why the Z axis would have that start/stop feel.  
John

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Sokolik [mailto:samco...@gmail.com]
> Sent: August 14, 2023 9:09 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping
> 
> Would you ever be tapping that slow?   If you are - then yes - higher
> resolution or try interpolation..  (Will that be bad in rigid tapping
> reversals?  Threading on a lathe interpolation works great - but that is
> one direction...). The green machine had a gear tooth encoder - about 40
> ish teeth.  I never tried running it that slow rigid tapping - but I did
> initially use it for non-circular boring.  It did OK at around 10 to 50
rpm
> but you certainly could see the resolution in the cut..  I did rigid tap
> with it - but pretty high rpm with no issues..
> 
> https://youtu.be/F7QulGiMt20
> 
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2023, 10:50 PM Chris Albertson
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > I think with encoders that are not symmetric 50/50, you need to look
only
> > at the leading edges. (Or only at the trailing edges)
> >
> > Yes,this cuts the resulution in half but removes the nose.I think
for
> > somethig with a lot of rotational inertia, like a spindle, you can use
> > interpolation to get all the resolution you need.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[John Dammeyer]

How would that be done in the HAL file?

And BTW, Peter could probably explain why but when I bumped the RPM up to
100 and then looked at the velocity output and it mirrored the 1 RPM
velocity profile.  Just at higher rate.I'm guessing that even though the
HAL rate is 1mS inside the MESA it's likely 10x or even 100x that so we get
a way more detailed waveform that then is repeatable 1mS interval in
LinuxCNC.

John

> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Albertson [mailto:albertson.ch...@gmail.com]
> Sent: August 14, 2023 8:47 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping
> 
> I think with encoders that are not symmetric 50/50, you need to look only
at
> the leading edges. (Or only at the trailing edges)
> 
> Yes,this cuts the resulution in half but removes the nose.I think for
> somethig with a lot of rotational inertia, like a spindle, you can use
> interpolation to get all the resolution you need.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[Sam Sokolik]

Would you ever be tapping that slow?   If you are - then yes - higher
resolution or try interpolation..  (Will that be bad in rigid tapping
reversals?  Threading on a lathe interpolation works great - but that is
one direction...). The green machine had a gear tooth encoder - about 40
ish teeth.  I never tried running it that slow rigid tapping - but I did
initially use it for non-circular boring.  It did OK at around 10 to 50 rpm
but you certainly could see the resolution in the cut..  I did rigid tap
with it - but pretty high rpm with no issues..

https://youtu.be/F7QulGiMt20

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023, 10:50 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

> I think with encoders that are not symmetric 50/50, you need to look only
> at the leading edges. (Or only at the trailing edges)
>
> Yes,this cuts the resulution in half but removes the nose.I think for
> somethig with a lot of rotational inertia, like a spindle, you can use
> interpolation to get all the resolution you need.
>
>
>
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[Chris Albertson]

I think with encoders that are not symmetric 50/50, you need to look only at 
the leading edges. (Or only at the trailing edges)

Yes,this cuts the resulution in half but removes the nose.I think for 
somethig with a lot of rotational inertia, like a spindle, you can use 
interpolation to get all the resolution you need.




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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[gene heskett]

On 8/14/23 20:18, John Dammeyer wrote:

Hi Gene,
It's why I'm filtering.  And yes. I agree, at this slow a speed I suspect
what I will find is two different velocities reported from edge to edge.
I'm guessing when the speed is fast (small gap) then a faster than required
distance/vel is implemented.   Then on the next wider pulse it's gone too
far and now the drive stops because it has overshot.

I'm guessing.
I'll let you know.
John

This is something that halscope, watching the encoder output, could also 
tell you.  If while looking at it. you see a 4 step pattern that 
essentially repeats itself, that encoder is duff.  First, it needs lots 
higher definition. 240 edges per turn needs a lot higher precision than 
a 1000 line=4000 edges per turn, spinning at 7 or 14 times the spindle 
rpms gives 100's of times smoother control. That $20 Omron now has 9 
years of spinning at up to nearly 21,000 revs, rated at 6000 and hasn't 
sneezed yet.


You aren't going to get smooth z motion until you've got smooth, silent 
spindle motion.  Its following what it thinks is the spindle speed as 
output from the encoder  If the encoder is outputting noise, z is going 
to try and follow it.


Good luck John.



-Original Message-
From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
Sent: August 14, 2023 1:31 PM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

On 8/14/23 15:53, John Dammeyer wrote:

This thread has some good information about this

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/message/34363029/



For interest sake I set my mill up to turn 1 RPS with my 60 tooth
non-symmetrical encoder (4mm slots, 2.5mm teeth) and then ran the

power

tapping G-Code to see what the knee Z axis would do.



What I found is that it moved in short spurts.  Putting my finger on the
knee and against the column it still appeared to move rather slowly with
less of a jerk.  All this makes sense of course.


Something might be off in the quadrature accuracy. Do you have a dual
trace triggered scope?  That will likely be quite helpful. 60 teeth,
non-symetrical is going to generate a horrific amount of quantization
noise because neither waveform is going to be a 50/50 ratio in the time
domain. I got rid of all signs of that by putting my $20 Omron encoder
encoder on the rear of the spindle MOTOR, making and index pulse
generator on the spindle with a glued on screw and an ATS-667 hall
device, and tally switches on the heads gearshift knob to electronically
change gears. So the SCALE changes with the gearshift knob.  And I can
run the pid's Pgain above 20.



My servo period is 100 nanoseconds or 1 ms.  At 1 RPM that's one

tooth

every second or 4 encoder edges per second meaning one edge every

250mS.

That's 250 servo periods.  What I think I'm seeing is that every 250

servo

periods the system detects the encoder edge and knows it's moved

1/240th of

the 20 TPI thread. (0.000208333")  So it tells the Z axis to move that

same

distance and I suspect the velocity setting of 0.000208/250mS.



Does that make sense?  Is there a way to log each Z axis speed/distance
command so I can see what it's doing?



Or have I misunderstood how the power tapping synchronized motion is

done.


Thanks

John






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--
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   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
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Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>



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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[Peter Wallace]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023, John Dammeyer wrote:


Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2023 16:36:16 -0700
From: John Dammeyer 
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"

To: "'Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)'" 
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

Hi Andy,
I don't know.  How can I tell?  The encoder is connected to the MESA 7i92H 
and according to my documentation is noisy so needs to be filtered.  In 
either case it looks like the MESA board is providing Velocity and Position. 
I'd make a guess that based on its own internal clock it would provide a 
usable velocity.


The problem, and might only be fixed in hardware is when I made the disk I 
used a 4mm mill instead of the 3mm called for in the G-Code. Didn't notice 
until the second slot at which point it was already too late.  I'd guess at 
this slow a speed that the encoder will provide two different speeds between 
quadrature edges.


Must really fix that.

Here's some of the HAL file if that helps.
John


If you use LinuxCNC master, there is an interpolated position pin available 
for hostmot2 encoders. This basically uses the velocity estimation and the 
time since the last edge to get an estimated position between counts.


This should help the "staircase" motion of spindle synchronized moves
with low resolution encoders.


As far as noise goes and especially with low resolution encoders, this largely 
reflects quadrature errors (deviations from 50 % duty cycle and deviations 
from 90 degree phase shift between A and B).


Higher resolution encoders are better noise wise since since whatever 
quadrature errors exist, the estimated velocity noise caused by these errors 
gets divided by the counts per sample.


with low resolution encoders, you will typically have many samples between 
edges so the best you can do is calculate the time between edges so even a 
modest 10% duty cycle error causes relatively huge velocity noise.



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Gene,
It's why I'm filtering.  And yes. I agree, at this slow a speed I suspect
what I will find is two different velocities reported from edge to edge.
I'm guessing when the speed is fast (small gap) then a faster than required
distance/vel is implemented.   Then on the next wider pulse it's gone too
far and now the drive stops because it has overshot.

I'm guessing.
I'll let you know.
John

> -Original Message-
> From: gene heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: August 14, 2023 1:31 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping
> 
> On 8/14/23 15:53, John Dammeyer wrote:
> > This thread has some good information about this
> >
> > https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/message/34363029/
> >
> >
> >
> > For interest sake I set my mill up to turn 1 RPS with my 60 tooth
> > non-symmetrical encoder (4mm slots, 2.5mm teeth) and then ran the
> power
> > tapping G-Code to see what the knee Z axis would do.
> >
> >
> >
> > What I found is that it moved in short spurts.  Putting my finger on the
> > knee and against the column it still appeared to move rather slowly with
> > less of a jerk.  All this makes sense of course.
> >
> Something might be off in the quadrature accuracy. Do you have a dual
> trace triggered scope?  That will likely be quite helpful. 60 teeth,
> non-symetrical is going to generate a horrific amount of quantization
> noise because neither waveform is going to be a 50/50 ratio in the time
> domain. I got rid of all signs of that by putting my $20 Omron encoder
> encoder on the rear of the spindle MOTOR, making and index pulse
> generator on the spindle with a glued on screw and an ATS-667 hall
> device, and tally switches on the heads gearshift knob to electronically
> change gears. So the SCALE changes with the gearshift knob.  And I can
> run the pid's Pgain above 20.
> 
> >
> > My servo period is 100 nanoseconds or 1 ms.  At 1 RPM that's one
> tooth
> > every second or 4 encoder edges per second meaning one edge every
> 250mS.
> > That's 250 servo periods.  What I think I'm seeing is that every 250
servo
> > periods the system detects the encoder edge and knows it's moved
> 1/240th of
> > the 20 TPI thread. (0.000208333")  So it tells the Z axis to move that
same
> > distance and I suspect the velocity setting of 0.000208/250mS.
> >
> >
> >
> > Does that make sense?  Is there a way to log each Z axis speed/distance
> > command so I can see what it's doing?
> >
> >
> >
> > Or have I misunderstood how the power tapping synchronized motion is
> done.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Emc-users mailing list
> > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
> > .
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
> Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[John Dammeyer]

Hi Andy,
I don't know.  How can I tell?  The encoder is connected to the MESA 7i92H and 
according to my documentation is noisy so needs to be filtered.  In either case 
it looks like the MESA board is providing Velocity and Position.  I'd make a 
guess that based on its own internal clock it would provide a usable velocity. 

The problem, and might only be fixed in hardware is when I made the disk I used 
a 4mm mill instead of the 3mm called for in the G-Code. Didn't notice until the 
second slot at which point it was already too late.  I'd guess at this slow a 
speed that the encoder will provide two different speeds between quadrature 
edges.  

Must really fix that.

Here's some of the HAL file if that helps.
John


# This machine has a spindle so we need one of those.
loadrt abs names=abs.spindle
# and the encoder can be noisy so filter out high frequency noise.
loadrt lowpass names=lowpass.spindle
# and convert the number of lines to RPS.
loadrt scale names=scale.spindle
# load real time a limit2 and a near with names so it is easier to follow
loadrt limit2 names=spindle-ramp
loadrt near names=spindle-near-speed

#***
#  SPINDLE S
#***
#===
# SPINDLE ENCODER
# Hardware assumptions:
#An encoder is connected to the spindle and puts out 60 pulses per 
revolution on phase A
#The encoder A phase is connected to the DB25 #2 Pin 11
#The encoder B phase is connected to the DB25 #2 Pin 12
#The encoder index pulse is connected to DB25 #2 Pin 13

# ---Encoder feedback signals/setup---
setphm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.counter-mode 0
setphm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.filter 1
setphm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.index-invert 1
setphm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.index-mask 0
setphm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.index-mask-invert 0
setphm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.scale  [SPINDLE_9]ENCODER_SCALE


# couple the encoder output to the motion control system so it knows what the 
spindle is doing.
net spindle-revs <=   hm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.position
net spindle-vel-fb-rps   <=   hm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.velocity
net spindle-index-enable <=>  hm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.index-enable


> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: August 14, 2023 1:06 PM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping
> 
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 at 20:57, John Dammeyer 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> > What I found is that it moved in short spurts.
> 
> Are you using straight encoder position, or position-interpolated?
> (this might not be an option depending on what is counting the encoder
> pulses)
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[gene heskett]

On 8/14/23 15:53, John Dammeyer wrote:

This thread has some good information about this

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/message/34363029/

  


For interest sake I set my mill up to turn 1 RPS with my 60 tooth
non-symmetrical encoder (4mm slots, 2.5mm teeth) and then ran the power
tapping G-Code to see what the knee Z axis would do.

  


What I found is that it moved in short spurts.  Putting my finger on the
knee and against the column it still appeared to move rather slowly with
less of a jerk.  All this makes sense of course.

Something might be off in the quadrature accuracy. Do you have a dual 
trace triggered scope?  That will likely be quite helpful. 60 teeth, 
non-symetrical is going to generate a horrific amount of quantization 
noise because neither waveform is going to be a 50/50 ratio in the time 
domain. I got rid of all signs of that by putting my $20 Omron encoder 
encoder on the rear of the spindle MOTOR, making and index pulse 
generator on the spindle with a glued on screw and an ATS-667 hall 
device, and tally switches on the heads gearshift knob to electronically 
change gears. So the SCALE changes with the gearshift knob.  And I can 
run the pid's Pgain above 20.




My servo period is 100 nanoseconds or 1 ms.  At 1 RPM that's one tooth
every second or 4 encoder edges per second meaning one edge every 250mS.
That's 250 servo periods.  What I think I'm seeing is that every 250 servo
periods the system detects the encoder edge and knows it's moved 1/240th of
the 20 TPI thread. (0.000208333")  So it tells the Z axis to move that same
distance and I suspect the velocity setting of 0.000208/250mS.

  


Does that make sense?  Is there a way to log each Z axis speed/distance
command so I can see what it's doing?

  


Or have I misunderstood how the power tapping synchronized motion is done.

Thanks

John

  

  



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--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[andy pugh]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2023 at 20:57, John Dammeyer  wrote:


> What I found is that it moved in short spurts.

Are you using straight encoder position, or position-interpolated?
(this might not be an option depending on what is counting the encoder
pulses)

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping

[John Dammeyer]

This thread has some good information about this

https://sourceforge.net/p/emc/mailman/message/34363029/

 

For interest sake I set my mill up to turn 1 RPS with my 60 tooth
non-symmetrical encoder (4mm slots, 2.5mm teeth) and then ran the power
tapping G-Code to see what the knee Z axis would do.

 

What I found is that it moved in short spurts.  Putting my finger on the
knee and against the column it still appeared to move rather slowly with
less of a jerk.  All this makes sense of course.

 

My servo period is 100 nanoseconds or 1 ms.  At 1 RPM that's one tooth
every second or 4 encoder edges per second meaning one edge every 250mS.
That's 250 servo periods.  What I think I'm seeing is that every 250 servo
periods the system detects the encoder edge and knows it's moved 1/240th of
the 20 TPI thread. (0.000208333")  So it tells the Z axis to move that same
distance and I suspect the velocity setting of 0.000208/250mS.

 

Does that make sense?  Is there a way to log each Z axis speed/distance
command so I can see what it's doing?

 

Or have I misunderstood how the power tapping synchronized motion is done.

Thanks

John

 

 


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder

[Chris Radek]

Your intuition is right.  If you don't care about starting in the
same orientation each time, it doesn't matter.  

My VMC has the encoder on the motor, and it doesn't have an index at
all.  I wired the A to the Z input on the mesa card so it gets lots
of indexes and the tapping starts wherever it happens to be.

My lathes of course have real index.

On Fri, Sep 03, 2021 at 04:29:55PM +0100, andy pugh wrote:
> I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.
> 
> But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
> feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
> won't work?
> 
> Has anyone tried this?


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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder

[Henk du preez]

It works. We are doing it on a deckel FP5

Rigid tapping but only one pass. There is no way of knowing which index
pulse will be detected since there are more than one depending on which
gear you are in.

Spindle-position is scaled by the exact gear ratio you are in at any given
time.

On another machine, I built a quad encoder using proximity switches. Only
24 PPR direct on the spindle. Wired to one of the encoder inputs via a line
driver IC, this is good up to 500 rpm and I have rigid tapped multiple M3 x
0.5 holes.

Henk

On Fri, 03 Sep 2021, 18:37 , 
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Rigid tapping with geared encoder (andy pugh)
>2. Re: Rigid tapping with geared encoder (Leonardo Marsaglia)
>3. Re: Rigid tapping with geared encoder (Rene Hopf)
>4. Re: Rigid tapping with geared encoder (John Dammeyer)
>5. Re: Rigid tapping with geared encoder (Gene Heskett)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 16:29:55 +0100
> From: andy pugh 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> Subject: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder
> Message-ID:
> <
> can1+yzxwooxwaluwmmuhx3phdn8rygrbc-r651j5xz-eh9d...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.
>
> But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
> feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
> won't work?
>
> Has anyone tried this?
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 13:11:10 -0300
> From: Leonardo Marsaglia 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder
> Message-ID:
>  544uaxz4grzep-rg...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Hello Andy,
>
> Didn't try rigid tapping but the Mazak has the encoder coupled to the
> spindle by means of a timing belt in a 1:1 ratio. So, unless the motor in
> that machine is coupled in a synchronized way to the spindle you'll always
> have the chance of missing synchronization. Also ,as you pointed out, if
> the ratio is not exactly 1:1 you'll eventually have deviation as the
> spindle turns (assuming this is a 1 PPR configuration).
>
> El vie, 3 sept 2021 a las 12:35, andy pugh ()
> escribi?:
>
> > I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> > rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.
> >
> > But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
> > feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
> > won't work?
> >
> > Has anyone tried this?
> >
> > --
> > atp
> > "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> > designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> > lunatics."
> > ? George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2021 18:12:21 +0200
> From: Rene Hopf 
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> > On 3. Sep 2021, at 17:32, andy pugh  wrote:
> >
> > ?I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> > rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the moto

Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 03 September 2021 11:29:55 andy pugh wrote:

> I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.
>
> But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
> feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
> won't work?
>
> Has anyone tried this?

I am doing it on the G0704, encoder is on the spindle motor but I do use 
multipass for threading on 1/4" and bigger taps, so my index IS from the 
spindle. This does result in some huge scale settings, wnich I switch with a 
gear shift tally switches but that doesn't seem to bother LinuxCNC.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder

[John Dammeyer]

Andy,
As I recall when it was explained to me is that the index pulse is used once to 
start the process.  After that the quadrature encoder A/B signals let the 
trajectory planner know how fast it's going and in which direction.  I'm not 
sure if it even requires the index for multipass.

But then it may also have you that explained it to me...
John




> -Original Message-
> From: andy pugh [mailto:bodge...@gmail.com]
> Sent: September-03-21 8:30 AM
> To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
> Subject: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder
> 
> I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.
> 
> But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
> feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
> won't work?
> 
> Has anyone tried this?
> 
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> � George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder

[Leonardo Marsaglia]

Hello Andy,

Didn't try rigid tapping but the Mazak has the encoder coupled to the
spindle by means of a timing belt in a 1:1 ratio. So, unless the motor in
that machine is coupled in a synchronized way to the spindle you'll always
have the chance of missing synchronization. Also ,as you pointed out, if
the ratio is not exactly 1:1 you'll eventually have deviation as the
spindle turns (assuming this is a 1 PPR configuration).

El vie, 3 sept 2021 a las 12:35, andy pugh () escribió:

> I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.
>
> But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
> feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
> won't work?
>
> Has anyone tried this?
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder

[Rene Hopf via Emc-users]

> On 3. Sep 2021, at 17:32, andy pugh  wrote:
> 
> I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
> rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.
> 
> But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
> feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
> won't work?

On my haas the encoder is geared 1:2, the index is only seen on every second 
rotation. No issues. It only takes longer for the engagement move.

> 
> Has anyone tried this?
> 
> -- 
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912
> 
> 
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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping with geared encoder

[andy pugh]

I have just advised someone on the forum that he needs a 1ppr index to
rigid tap, as his encoder is mounted to the motor, not to the spindle.

But then I started wondering if this is technically correct. I have a
feeling that single=pass rigid tapping will be fine, but mutli-pass
won't work?

Has anyone tried this?

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1912


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[John Thornton]

Tap some air first!

JT

On 11/17/2016 2:21 PM, hubert wrote:
> I like most of the suggestions except the MDF because it tends to wear
> out cutters.  I ordered a small amount of machinable wax, it will be
> here tomorrow, but I am in a hurry so I will try the bolt and nut
> approach today.  If that works I will test on a small chunk of delrin,
> if that goes well I will tackle the aluminum.
>
> Thanks
>
> Hubert
>
>
> On 11/17/16 1:08 PM, Roland Jollivet wrote:
>> You could practise with a piece of threaded rod(or bolt) in the chuck, and
>> a nut held lightly in the vice. If the nut moves up or down during the tap
>> cycle there's a problem. If you start with taps, a post mortem on a cut
>> thread would be more difficult.
>>
>>
>> On 17 November 2016 at 19:27, Kirk Wallace 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/17/2016 09:12 AM, andy pugh wrote:
 On 17 November 2016 at 17:01, Kirk Wallace 
>>> wrote:
> Machinable wax comes to mind for testing. It is easy to make and reuse.
>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[hubert]

I like most of the suggestions except the MDF because it tends to wear 
out cutters.  I ordered a small amount of machinable wax, it will be 
here tomorrow, but I am in a hurry so I will try the bolt and nut 
approach today.  If that works I will test on a small chunk of delrin, 
if that goes well I will tackle the aluminum.

Thanks

Hubert


On 11/17/16 1:08 PM, Roland Jollivet wrote:
> You could practise with a piece of threaded rod(or bolt) in the chuck, and
> a nut held lightly in the vice. If the nut moves up or down during the tap
> cycle there's a problem. If you start with taps, a post mortem on a cut
> thread would be more difficult.
>
>
> On 17 November 2016 at 19:27, Kirk Wallace 
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/17/2016 09:12 AM, andy pugh wrote:
>>> On 17 November 2016 at 17:01, Kirk Wallace 
>> wrote:
 Machinable wax comes to mind for testing. It is easy to make and reuse.
> --
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[Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[Roland Jollivet]

You could practise with a piece of threaded rod(or bolt) in the chuck, and
a nut held lightly in the vice. If the nut moves up or down during the tap
cycle there's a problem. If you start with taps, a post mortem on a cut
thread would be more difficult.


On 17 November 2016 at 19:27, Kirk Wallace 
wrote:

> On 11/17/2016 09:12 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> > On 17 November 2016 at 17:01, Kirk Wallace 
> wrote:
> >> Machinable wax comes to mind for testing. It is easy to make and reuse.
> >
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[Kirk Wallace]

On 11/17/2016 09:12 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 17 November 2016 at 17:01, Kirk Wallace  
> wrote:
>> Machinable wax comes to mind for testing. It is easy to make and reuse.
>
> I recently used candles straight out of their wrapping as a sample material:
> If you look carefully you can see the wick.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7swEpeDI36g=261s
>

I hope you keep this list up to date on your project.

-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[andy pugh]

On 17 November 2016 at 17:01, Kirk Wallace  wrote:
> Machinable wax comes to mind for testing. It is easy to make and reuse.

I recently used candles straight out of their wrapping as a sample material:
If you look carefully you can see the wick.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7swEpeDI36g=261s

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[Kirk Wallace]

On 11/16/2016 11:11 PM, hubert wrote:

... snip

> what are your recommendations at some test trials to get the feel of
> the Machines capabilities.

... snip

Machinable wax comes to mind for testing. It is easy to make and reuse.
http://wallacecompany.com/tmp/IMG_8432-1a.jpg
http://wallacecompany.com/tmp/IMG_8427-1a.jpg
http://wallacecompany.com/tmp/IMG_8441-1a.jpg

My batch here cut well, with sharp clean edges. I used old candles and 
plastic ice cream buckets. Doing a search on "DIY machinable wax" should 
provide good instructions on how to make it.


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[Ed]

On 11/17/2016 01:11 AM, hubert wrote:
> I have a step and Direction driven AC Servo spindle with encoder output
> that is supposedly capable of rigid tapping.  I want to tap some 1/4
> inch aluminum with M3x0.5 spiral flute HSS tap. Initially I have the
> spindle speed set at 150 rpm.

Start about 1000 RPM. I tap 5/8-11 at 400RPM 1 1/4" deep in steel in a lathe





>   What type of tapping cycle should I use,
> Continuous, or some type of peck cycle.


Tap it in one shot if you are using a spiral point or a spiral flute 
tap. If you are using a straight flute tap then tap one diameter deep 
maximum then finish by hand. Proper lube is needed, use a commercial 
lube or try lard.




>Also what are your
> recommendations at some test trials to get the feel of the Machines
> capabilities.  I have on hand up to 8mm taps, should I try one of those
> first.  I hope not to break a tap in a part that already has time
> invested in it.  I know I could hand tap them, but that wouldn't give me
> experience in rigid tapping.
>
> Thanks
>
> Hubert
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[andy pugh]

On 17 November 2016 at 07:11, hubert  wrote:
>   What type of tapping cycle should I use,
> Continuous, or some type of peck cycle.

I don't think we have a peck-tapping cycle, so G33.1 is the only
choice (unless you want to wrap it up in a loop)

Try cutting air first, to make sure that index and encoder feedback
are working correctly.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 17 November 2016 02:11:53 hubert wrote:

> I have a step and Direction driven AC Servo spindle with encoder
> output that is supposedly capable of rigid tapping.  I want to tap
> some 1/4 inch aluminum with M3x0.5 spiral flute HSS tap. Initially I
> have the spindle speed set at 150 rpm.  What type of tapping cycle
> should I use, Continuous, or some type of peck cycle.  Also what are
> your
> recommendations at some test trials to get the feel of the Machines
> capabilities.  I have on hand up to 8mm taps, should I try one of
> those first.  I hope not to break a tap in a part that already has
> time invested in it.  I know I could hand tap them, but that wouldn't
> give me experience in rigid tapping.
>
> Thanks
>
> Hubert

Study up on the gcode G33.1.

This is not normally a peck tap routine. however there is no problem 
wrapping it up in a routine that does a peck, increasing the z depth per 
peck by whatever amount you feel the tap is comfortable without 
clogging.

Here is code I run, for a 3mmx0.5 metric tap, but itsnot near as capable 
a tap as your spiral flute tap, clogging in a deep hole, but this code 
has yet to break a straight flute 3mmx0.5 tap. You'll see a pause before 
it starts a new peck, giving you time to blow the tap clean and put a 
little bit more buttercutt on it.
=
%
( tap3mmhole.ngc )
( center over hole to tap, z touched off with tap tip just above hole )
( working in metric )
G21 ( measure in mm's )
#<_z_depth> = -18.00
( peck decrement, a bit farther each time, adjust to suit)
( try at 4 to 6 for your tap if its a deep hole )
#<_z_dec>   =   [ #<_z_depth> / 12 ]
(debug,8 z_dec=#<_z_dec>)
#<_z_tmp>   =   0.
g1F50 z#<_z_tmp>
( here, the usable speed depends on how fast your spindle )
( can reverse as there will be an overshoot!  but z will track it )
( which means the tap can bottom and break if too fast )
S400 M3
o100 WHILE [#<_z_tmp> ge #<_z_depth>]
G33.1 Z#<_z_tmp> k0.50 ( per turn for metric tap is as marked )
( inch taps, then k is reciprical of tpi. In inches of course. )
#<_z_tmp>   =   [#<_z_tmp> + #<_z_dec>]
G4 P3 (4 second pause to blow chips off tap & buttercutt the tap )
o100 ENDWHILE
M5 (stop spindle)
G20 (back to inches)
M2
%
===

I have some hal code that will give you the overshoot value expressed as 
encoder edges, which can be converted to distance by kcalc or similar.
Because of the mass of the chuck on a lathe, it is much harder to reverse 
than a mill spindle so the overshoot distance can grow to unusable 
amounts very quickly.  But 125-150 revs is usable on TLM, which has a 5" 
4 jaw on it.

I hope this helps, Hubert. It is not the only way, but this works for me.  
As always, cut air above the hole first. Touching z off about an inch 
high for the first run in case I missed something.  And make sure your 
hole is deep enough, which with a 2.5mm drill, will require a peck drill 
else it may clog the flutes and break the drill off in the hole if not 
retracted and cleaned. 

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[Cristian Bontas]

If it's the first time trying rigid tapping on this machine, why not doing some 
test runs on scrap pieces of MDF first, with M6 or M8 taps?
On 11/17/2016 09:17:26, hubert  wrote:
I have a step and Direction driven AC Servo spindle with encoder output
that is supposedly capable of rigid tapping. I want to tap some 1/4
inch aluminum with M3x0.5 spiral flute HSS tap. Initially I have the
spindle speed set at 150 rpm. What type of tapping cycle should I use,
Continuous, or some type of peck cycle. Also what are your
recommendations at some test trials to get the feel of the Machines
capabilities. I have on hand up to 8mm taps, should I try one of those
first. I hope not to break a tap in a part that already has time
invested in it. I know I could hand tap them, but that wouldn't give me
experience in rigid tapping.

Thanks

Hubert



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[Emc-users] Rigid Tapping

[hubert]

I have a step and Direction driven AC Servo spindle with encoder output 
that is supposedly capable of rigid tapping.  I want to tap some 1/4 
inch aluminum with M3x0.5 spiral flute HSS tap. Initially I have the 
spindle speed set at 150 rpm.  What type of tapping cycle should I use,  
Continuous, or some type of peck cycle.  Also what are your 
recommendations at some test trials to get the feel of the Machines 
capabilities.  I have on hand up to 8mm taps, should I try one of those 
first.  I hope not to break a tap in a part that already has time 
invested in it.  I know I could hand tap them, but that wouldn't give me 
experience in rigid tapping.

Thanks

Hubert



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[Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

[robert - Innovative-RC]

hi

what would it take to add or finish adding U V W rigid tapping ? as i 
see when you command G33.1 with a W it is accepted but goes to postion 
and just does the next line of code with out doing the tapping move.

so it looks like someone might have started adding rigid tapping in U V W?
i use all drill cycles etc in the W axis but id love to use rigid 
tapping in W also.

i am no coder but id take alook at finishing the job if someone pointed 
us in the right directions, is it just a case of finishing off the 
interp cycles ??

or if there someone much more cleaver than me who would take on 
finishing it off?

thanks, Rob

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

[Todd Zuercher]

This might be a better question for the developers list.  Also post a feature 
request.  But it would probably be simpler to temporarily remap your W-axis 
joint to the Z for the bit of code where you tap then switch back.  I've also 
ran into a similar problem using the new tool planner doing 3-d engraving with 
W-axis code. The problem is also present in the old tool planner, but it isn't 
as noticeable, because of the slower speeds.  I worked around it in a similar 
fashion.  I was able to convince the author of the new planner to work on a 
build that worked for me, it was baised on 2.7.2. I don't use tapping so I have 
no idea if it would help at all (doubt it).  I also don't know if those fixes 
are planned to be merged into the regular code.  

- Original Message -
From: "robert - Innovative-RC" <rob...@innovative-rc.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 4:50:15 AM
Subject: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

hi

what would it take to add or finish adding U V W rigid tapping ? as i 
see when you command G33.1 with a W it is accepted but goes to postion 
and just does the next line of code with out doing the tapping move.

so it looks like someone might have started adding rigid tapping in U V W?
i use all drill cycles etc in the W axis but id love to use rigid 
tapping in W also.

i am no coder but id take alook at finishing the job if someone pointed 
us in the right directions, is it just a case of finishing off the 
interp cycles ??

or if there someone much more cleaver than me who would take on 
finishing it off?

thanks, Rob

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

[robert - Innovative-RC]

yes you can tap in X Y Z no problem,

if you try it out in the 9axis sim you can see U V W does not follow 
spindle just goes to position in the G code, and then proceeeds to the 
next line of code with no error etc
even if you switch planes or (G18 or G17.1)

my config is on a 3 axis lathe X Z top turret , W bottom turret

soon i have a 5 axis lathe todo
X Z top turret, U W bottom Turret
C axis on spindle, and power tooling on top turret.



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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

[Todd Zuercher]

Here is a link to the linuxcnc forum where I posted a copy of my working XYZW 
servo config that can temporarily slave the Z to the W axis.  It would be 
simple to do something similar to swap axis as well.
https://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/12944-4-axes-machine-questions?start=20#70064

- Original Message -
From: "robert - Innovative-RC" <rob...@innovative-rc.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 8:54:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

yes you can tap in X Y Z no problem,

if you try it out in the 9axis sim you can see U V W does not follow 
spindle just goes to position in the G code, and then proceeeds to the 
next line of code with no error etc
even if you switch planes or (G18 or G17.1)

my config is on a 3 axis lathe X Z top turret , W bottom turret

soon i have a 5 axis lathe todo
X Z top turret, U W bottom Turret
C axis on spindle, and power tooling on top turret.



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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

[TJoseph Powderly]

Thanks Todd
before i dig into your code, i read the thread
and if i understand correctly, then i can rephrase what you did
( my standard test for whether i understand ;-)

i think you commanded W and added the delta to the W while the custom M 
code was in effect.
true?

i did similar for sink edm with linuxcnc
but always returned to the position where the M code was called before 
returning control to linuxcnc
it worked with servo and stepper because i commanded a small position 
change till the difference was 0
literally a do while loop ( all in hal )

tomp

On 02/13/2016 10:40 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Here is a link to the linuxcnc forum where I posted a copy of my working XYZW 
> servo config that can temporarily slave the Z to the W axis.  It would be 
> simple to do something similar to swap axis as well.
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/12944-4-axes-machine-questions?start=20#70064
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

[Todd Zuercher]

I'm not quite sure I understood your reinterpretation of what I tried to 
explain. 

What I did was, command Z and W to a common safe position. Then issued my 
slaving command, The slaving command disconnected the W-motors from the W 
position command and reconnected it to the Z through an offset and did similar 
things with the W Feed back loop.  The offset is the difference in position of 
the W and Z at the slaving position.

The custom M-codes just twiddle the control pins of a couple of Mux2s in hal 
and calculate number to plug into the offset.

- Original Message -
From: "TJoseph Powderly" <tjt...@gmail.com>
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 10:59:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

Thanks Todd
before i dig into your code, i read the thread
and if i understand correctly, then i can rephrase what you did
( my standard test for whether i understand ;-)

i think you commanded W and added the delta to the W while the custom M 
code was in effect.
true?

i did similar for sink edm with linuxcnc
but always returned to the position where the M code was called before 
returning control to linuxcnc
it worked with servo and stepper because i commanded a small position 
change till the difference was 0
literally a do while loop ( all in hal )

tomp

On 02/13/2016 10:40 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Here is a link to the linuxcnc forum where I posted a copy of my working XYZW 
> servo config that can temporarily slave the Z to the W axis.  It would be 
> simple to do something similar to swap axis as well.
> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/12944-4-axes-machine-questions?start=20#70064
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid Tapping in U,V,W

[TJoseph Powderly]

thanks todd
i also used the offset component
so it sounds familiar
the offset component was returned to original position simply by nudging 
till offset was 0

tomp

On 02/14/2016 06:54 AM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> I'm not quite sure I understood your reinterpretation of what I tried to 
> explain.
hahaha np
> What I did was, command Z and W to a common safe position. Then issued my 
> slaving command, The slaving command disconnected the W-motors from the W 
> position command and reconnected it to the Z through an offset and did 
> similar things with the W Feed back loop.  The offset is the difference in 
> position of the W and Z at the slaving position.
similar, i actually let the slaved axis move according to gap voltage 
between 2 limits ( upper lower)
this is edm so the motion is at best a jiggly chacha towards a destination
the chacha is at the micron level as the best tool position varies 
continously
an aside: if the tool tip is at the start position too long , it exits 
saying 'I'm stuck/shorted'
if the tool tip is at the bottom continuoisly for a 
given time, then it exits saying 'all done'
so it aborts the program or signals its ok to return to original 
position, and then continue interpretation
> The custom M-codes just twiddle the control pins of a couple of Mux2s in hal 
> and calculate number to plug into the offset.
i had a different task
a window comp was monitored and i moved forward or backward 1 unit of 
measure or did nothing
(3 actions based on window comp) so the unit motion was simply 
added/subtracted to the offset
but limited by the upper ( start position ) and lower ( full depth - 
overcut)

interesting post
there may be other applications looking for independant motion ( orbital 
welding? polishing?
the ancient linuxcnc 'weave weld'? )

thanks
tomp
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.01.16 17:08, andy pugh wrote:
> If you drill a hole of D-1p then you are at about 78% engagement.

That'll do me for M10 and up, but it's scary for Gene's M3.
I was certain I was going to break the tap if I persisted with 82%
engagement, which is as close to D-1p as you get with 0.1mm drill size
steps.

That's the thing with a simplistic rule of thumb, it breaks down at the
limits.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.01.16 12:27, Gene Heskett wrote:
> Now we are getting more precise than we can drill with the typical drill 
> bit, which usually drills oversize because the tip flats are 
> un-avoidably off center. Even to a small extent for pricy carbide bits 
> in the smaller sizes.  Yesterdays finished tapping looked great, but I 
> think I could have used the next larger #drill. Yeah, my back of a 
> napkin said a .089 drill, kcalc says 0.0984251968503937008 for a 3mm.5 
> screw.
> 
> No wonder I felt like I should peck it, the hole WAS too small.

Ahem, it was WAAAY too small. ;-)

Just a glance at the table upthread shows that 2.6mm (0.102") gives 65%
engagement, which is as much as I ever want on M3, to avoid busting the
tap. Even kcalc's 2.5mm (0.098") drill is too small, giving a dangerous
(to small taps) 82% engagement.

And that .089 (2.26mm) gives an engagement of:

E = (OD - Drill_Size)/2kp
  = (3 - 2.26)/(2*0.613*.5)
  = 120%

That has the tap drilling as well as tapping!
You did superbly to not break the tap, Gene.

I tried a 2.5mm (0.098") drill for M3. Once.
Although the tap didn't break, I went straight out and bought a couple
of 2.6mm drills. Now I can tap M3 without my hair standing on end.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Erik, I don't know wat table you were glancing at, but here is the table 
from Europes No:1 tool seller, Hoffmann Group 
(http://www.gewinde-norm.de/metrisches-iso-gewinde-din-13.htm), listing 
metric ISO / DIN13 threads:

Thread   PitchCore diam. bolt  Core diam. nut   
Drill size mm  Wrench size mm
Gewinde 
Steigung

Kerndurchmesser
Bolzen

Kerndurchmesser
Mutter

Kernlochbohrer

Schlüsselweite
(Sechskant)
M1  
0,25

0,693

0,729

0,75

-
M1,2
0,25

0,893

0,929

0,73

-
M1,6
0,35

1,171

1,221

1,30


3,2

M2  
0,40

1,509

1,567

1,60

4
M2,5
0,45

1,948

2,013

2,10

5
M3  
0,50

2,387

2,459

2,50

5,5
M4  
0,70

3,141

3,242

3,30

7
M5  
0,80

4,019

4,134

4,20

8
M6  
1,00

4,773

4,917

5,00

10
M8  
1,25

6,466

6,647

6,80

13 / 14
M10 
1,50

8,160

8,376

8,50

17 / 16
M12 
1,75

9,853

10,106

10,20

19 / 18
M16 
2,00

13,546

13,835

14,00

24
M20 
2,50

16,933

17,294

17,50

30


Greetings
Peter

Am 24.01.2016 10:18, schrieb Erik Christiansen:
> On 23.01.16 12:27, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> Now we are getting more precise than we can drill with the typical drill
>> bit, which usually drills oversize because the tip flats are
>> un-avoidably off center. Even to a small extent for pricy carbide bits
>> in the smaller sizes.  Yesterdays finished tapping looked great, but I
>> think I could have used the next larger #drill. Yeah, my back of a
>> napkin said a .089 drill, kcalc says 0.0984251968503937008 for a 3mm.5
>> screw.
>>
>> No wonder I felt like I should peck it, the hole WAS too small.
> Ahem, it was WAAAY too small. ;-)
>
> Just a glance at the table upthread shows that 2.6mm (0.102") gives 65%
> engagement, which is as much as I ever want on M3, to avoid busting the
> tap. Even kcalc's 2.5mm (0.098") drill is too small, giving a dangerous
> (to small taps) 82% engagement.
>
> And that .089 (2.26mm) gives an engagement of:
>
> E = (OD - Drill_Size)/2kp
>= (3 - 2.26)/(2*0.613*.5)
>= 120%
>
> That has the tap drilling as well as tapping!
> You did superbly to not break the tap, Gene.
>
> I tried a 2.5mm (0.098") drill for M3. Once.
> Although the tap didn't break, I went straight out and bought a couple
> of 2.6mm drills. Now I can tap M3 without my hair standing on end.
>
> Erik
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 24.01.16 13:28, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Erik, I don't know wat table you were glancing at,

The one I posted upthread. It is much more convenient than calculating
engagement each time, and safer than just using D-p below M6.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Sorry, the mail didn't transport the table like it was supposed to. I 
try again without table function:

Thread   PitchCore diam. bolt  Core diam. nut   Drill size 
mm  Wrench size mm
M1  0,25   0,6930,729   
 0,75-
M1,2 0,25   0,8930,929  
  0,73-
M1,6 0,35   1,1711,221  
  1,30  3,2
M20,40   1,5091,567 
   1,60  4
M2,5 0,45   1,9482,013  
  2,10  5
M3   0,502,3872,459 
   2,50  5,5
M4   0,703,1413,242 
   3,30  7
M5   0,80   4,019 4,134 
   4,20  8
M6   1,00   4,7734,917  
   5,0010
M8  1,256,4666,647  
   6,8013 / 14
M101,508,1608,376   
  8,5017 / 16
M121,759,853  10,106
10,2019 / 18
M162,00  13,546  13,835
14,0024
M202,50  16,933  17,294
17,5030

Now, I hope that's better. Many of the drill size values were even smaller 
(tighter) before the DIN was changed some years ago: e.g. M2.3 and M2.6 were 
united to M2.5, M3.5 was (almost) cancelled though it still is a very common 
thread with electric appliances, etc.

Peter.
  



Am 24.01.2016 13:28, schrieb Peter Blodow:
> Erik, I don't know wat table you were glancing at, but here is the table
> from Europes No:1 tool seller, Hoffmann Group
> (http://www.gewinde-norm.de/metrisches-iso-gewinde-din-13.htm), listing
> metric ISO / DIN13 threads:
>
> Thread   PitchCore diam. bolt  Core diam. nut
> Drill size mm  Wrench size mm
> Gewinde   
> Steigung
>   
> Kerndurchmesser
> Bolzen
>   
> Kerndurchmesser
> Mutter
>   
> Kernlochbohrer
>   
> Schlüsselweite
> (Sechskant)
> M1
> 0,25
>   
> 0,693
>   
> 0,729
>   
> 0,75
>   
> -
> M1,2  
> 0,25
>   
> 0,893
>   
> 0,929
>   
> 0,73
>   
> -
> M1,6  
> 0,35
>   
> 1,171
>   
> 1,221
>   
> 1,30
>   
>
> 3,2
>
> M2
> 0,40
>   
> 1,509
>   
> 1,567
>   
> 1,60
>   
> 4
> M2,5  
> 0,45
>   
> 1,948
>   
> 2,013
>   
> 2,10
>   
> 5
> M3
> 0,50
>   
> 2,387
>   
> 2,459
>   
> 2,50
>   
> 5,5
> M4
> 0,70
>   
> 3,141
>   
> 3,242
>   
> 3,30
>   
> 7
> M5
> 0,80
>   
> 4,019
>   
> 4,134
>   
> 4,20
>   
> 8
> M6
> 1,00
>   
> 4,773
>   
> 4,917
>   
> 5,00
>   
> 10
> M8
> 1,25
>   
> 6,466
>   
> 6,647
>   
> 6,80
>   
> 13 / 14
> M10   
> 1,50
>   
> 8,160
>   
> 8,376
>   
> 8,50
>   
> 17 / 16
> M12   
> 1,75
>   
> 9,853
>   
> 10,106
>   
> 10,20
>   
> 19 / 18
> M16   
> 2,00
>   
> 13,546
>   
> 13,835
>   
> 14,00
>   
> 24
> M20   
> 2,50
>   
> 16,933
>   
> 17,294
>   
> 17,50
>   
> 30
>
>
> Greetings
> Peter
>
> Am 24.01.2016 10:18, schrieb Erik Christiansen:
>> On 23.01.16 12:27, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Now we are getting more precise than we can drill with the typical drill
>>> bit, which usually drills oversize because the tip flats are
>>> un-avoidably off center. Even to a small extent for pricy carbide bits
>>> in the smaller sizes.  Yesterdays finished tapping looked great, but I
>>> think I could have used the next larger #drill. Yeah, my back of a
>>> napkin said a .089 drill, kcalc says 0.0984251968503937008 for a 3mm.5
>>> screw.
>>>
>>> No wonder I felt like I should peck it, the hole WAS too small.
>> Ahem, it was WAAAY too small. ;-)
>>
>> Just a glance at the table upthread shows that 2.6mm (0.102") gives 65%
>> engagement, which is as much as I ever want on M3, to avoid busting the
>> tap. Even kcalc's 2.5mm (0.098") drill is too small, giving a dangerous
>> (to small taps) 82% engagement.
>>
>> And that .089 (2.26mm) gives an engagement of:
>>
>> E = (OD - Drill_Size)/2kp
>> = (3 - 2.26)/(2*0.613*.5)
>> = 120%
>>
>> That has the tap drilling as well as tapping!
>> You did superbly to not break the tap, Gene.
>>
>> I tried a 2.5mm (0.098") drill for M3. Once.
>> Although the tap didn't 

Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 24 January 2016 04:18:27 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 23.01.16 12:27, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Now we are getting more precise than we can drill with the typical
> > drill bit, which usually drills oversize because the tip flats are
> > un-avoidably off center. Even to a small extent for pricy carbide
> > bits in the smaller sizes.  Yesterdays finished tapping looked
> > great, but I think I could have used the next larger #drill. Yeah,
> > my back of a napkin said a .089 drill, kcalc says
> > 0.0984251968503937008 for a 3mm.5 screw.
> >
> > No wonder I felt like I should peck it, the hole WAS too small.
>
> Ahem, it was WAAAY too small. ;-)
>
> Just a glance at the table upthread shows that 2.6mm (0.102") gives
> 65% engagement, which is as much as I ever want on M3, to avoid
> busting the tap. Even kcalc's 2.5mm (0.098") drill is too small,
> giving a dangerous (to small taps) 82% engagement.
>
> And that .089 (2.26mm) gives an engagement of:
>
> E = (OD - Drill_Size)/2kp
>   = (3 - 2.26)/(2*0.613*.5)
>   = 120%
>
> That has the tap drilling as well as tapping!
> You did superbly to not break the tap, Gene.
>
Considering it was an Irwin/Hansen tap, downright, I was holding my mouth 
dead right, miraculous.

But I had a hunch, and since I was doing it from the mdi command line, as 
I only had 2  hole to tap an inch apart, I started at 1mm increments, 
and was amazed once it actually started cutting, at how much debris 
there was on the tap when it withdrew.  Since I was driving it all the 
way thru a 1/2" piece of what I think is 7076-T6, I only drove it an 
additional 3mm per plunge until the 12mm mark, then 1mm at a hit till I 
could see it coming out of the bottom, which, since the screw was going 
to enter from that side, meant I had to take it out of the vise and 
finish the bottom to full depth threads by hand using the drill chuck 
and its R8 rear end for grip. That was because the tip if I went any 
deeper would have been hitting the vise and that would have broken it 
sure as taxes. Sure was beautiful threads though. :)

Dumbass here should have shimmed it up a 1/4" when I tightened the vise.  
More of that famous 20-05 hindsight many of us are so familiar with. :(
 
> I tried a 2.5mm (0.098") drill for M3. Once.
> Although the tap didn't break, I went straight out and bought a couple
> of 2.6mm drills. Now I can tap M3 without my hair standing on end.

I bought that Drill Hog set I posted a link to.  Now all I have to do is 
train this old fart to put the bit back in the drill index when I'm done 
with it.  But from the pix, those look well enough finished that they 
will be very easily identified should I forget. What I have surviving 
from a rot-gut whiskey chinese yard sale special bit set, which is about 
half of the numbered drills it had, might get stuff below 3/16 or so 
thrown in the rubbermaid bag holder in the corner.  None of it was the 
size stated when mic'd across the flutes. I will not cry when they go 
out in the bottom of a contractors cleanup bag.

I have several things on trucks, but I don't expect to see any of them 
tll the middle of the week.

As for making circuit boards, I think this mill can do it IF we can get 
camview-emc and friends running on wheezy. Otherwise the cutest thing 
thats exactly what I'd need is the Taiwanese Sable 2015 for 700 some USD 
& shipping.  All in needs is a computer and I have, stashed away in the 
basement, just waiting for such an occasion, 3 switch boxes that can 
switch a whole db25 parport.  So I'd flip the two switches since I have 
some stuff on my 5i25's P2, and load the config to drive it. Stated 
accuracy with its antibacklash nuts on conventional screws is .02mm, and 
that will carve decent pcb's. Rinky-dink belt driven 10k rpm spindle, 
but that motor could be replaced eventually.  The only thing that 
bothers me about the demo video on their site, is that it wasn't touched 
off right, so the tool was digging a good 10 thou into the glass.  Thats 
pure hell on tools.  Its a moving table design for X, and any Y tilt 
errors can probably be shimmed out.  Good design for a small pcb router 
IMNSHO.

Now if I could be assured of making enough PCB's to warrant buying it, 
but I cannot see enough sales to justify it.  There was no response to 
the offer of pcb's for that charge pump board.  And if I revert my 
registration to the precision pallet per each new board I make method, 
this one will do a better job than the little mill I made the first few 
boards on, such as the lathes encoder carrier.  But with the little 
mill's 10 tpi acme drive Z screw anchored a foot plus above the head, Z 
drift with temperature is a major problem, cold morning to warm 
afternoon is about .009" downward, all I think from radiated heat from 
its spindle motor warming up the nearby screw as there has never been a 
spindle bearing heating problem.  A small fan on the machine to help 
equalize the temps helps quite a bit.

This G0704 OTOH, 

Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[tom-emc]

OSG, referenced earlier by John Thornton, has this tool 
(http://www.osgtool.com/Technical.asp?tid=1=1) that calculates hole size 
given Major Dia, Pitch, and Engagement (% of Thread).  Their numbers seem to be 
slightly different than Erik’s though, but they suggest 60-70% engagement for 
deep hole tapping.

For example:

> On Jan 23, 2016, at 7:31 AM, Erik Christiansen  
> wrote:
> 
>   Or in general: # d is full thread depth.
>   Drill Size = OD - (E*2d)   # E is e.g. 0.65
>  # d = kP , where P is thread pitch.
> 
>   Or transposed for E:E = (OD - Drill_Size)/2d
> 
>k is:ISO Metric   0.613
> UNF/UNC  0.613
>   # British Association BA   0.600
>   # BSW, BSF, ME (32 & 40 TPI), Whitworth forms  0.640
>   # BSB, and BSP parallel.
> 
>
> 
> So for M12 x 1.5:
> 
> d = 0.613 * 1.5 = 0.9195
> E = (12 - 10.5)/(2 * 0.9195) = 81.5%
> 
> That's too much, especially for a deep hole. The 10.7 mm hole:
> 
> E = (12 - 10.7)/(2 * 0.9195) = 70.6%
> 
> would give Tom's spindle a fair chance.

The OSG tool gives 10.7mm at 66% engagement (for 12mm 1.5).

-Tom


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 23 January 2016 at 11:18, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal
> thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12, or 6 -
> 1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.

This works for any 60 degree thread, so is good for US screws too. You
just need to convert TPI to inch pitch.

So, 1/2" x 16 tpi? 1/2" - 1/16" = 7/16" tapping drill.

It doesn't work so well for proper Whitworth threads. :-)

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[John Thornton]

The general tap hole size goes out the window with many materials and 
thread depths and brass as you know is not like tapping cold butter...

JT

On 1/23/2016 5:48 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 23 January 2016 at 11:28, Erik Christiansen  
> wrote:
>>> The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, so I am very
>>> close (0.008” difference).
>> That only gives 60% thread engagement, if counting on my fingers is
>> working for me.
> Most digital calipers seem to have a table on the back. Mine says
> 10.2mm for M12 x 1.75
> (Which is no help, as this is M12 x 1.5)
> M10 x 1.5 is given as 8.5, which ties in well with the 10.5mm
> suggested for M12 x 1.5.
>
> I have heard that there used to be a rule that new tools (taps, files)
> were used only on brass until they started to go dull, then they would
> be transferred to work on steel and another brand-new tool would be
> brought in to work on brass.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.01.16 13:28, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Old fairy tale, fact ist that brass (depending on the zinc content) 
> needs a lower cutting angle then steel, both tools ought to be as sharp 
> edged as possible. For holes in brass larger than 10 mm, I use drill 
> bits with a 90° edge (broken edge, as we say) since a 12 mm bit cougth 
> once and almost smashed my ellbow by flinging the machine vise a me...

To avoid having to grind that zero rake onto a drill, I recently used a
set of German "All purpose" drills with a finer version of tungsten
carbide brazed-on wings. (Like a masonry drill.) They chewed through
hard brass at a very good rate, making a pleasant sound. The swarf was
more granular than flaky, so it just poured out of the flutes. (On the
lathe.)

So I haven't actually tried these notes:

Eliminating drill snatching:

Cartridge Brass: 70% Cu, 30% Zn. Does not need drill rake reduction.
In brass:   Grind the drill's cutting edges to 5° rake on the outer 70%
of the edge. At the corner, do not reduce the land width by
more than half.
(MEW 21:53 sketch, 26:65, 42:31, 43:63 photo)
[That's Model Engineer's Workshop, issues 21,26,42,43
 making mention of it.]

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal 
thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12, or 6 - 
1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.

Peter,

Am 22.01.2016 18:43, schrieb tom-...@bgp.nu:
> This is the tap I am using: 
> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that 
> seems fairly large.


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 22.01.16 12:43, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> This is the tap I am using:
> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say
> that seems fairly large.

For M12, a 10.5 mm hole gives 69% thread engagement. Taking as rule of
thumb for avoiding busted taps:
< 6 mm: ~ 60% thread engagement ;  6 - 10 mm: 70% ;  > 10 mm: 75%
you could drop the hole size marginally if the hole isn't deep, and the
spindle will power it, I think.

> The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, so I am very
> close (0.008” difference).

That only gives 60% thread engagement, if counting on my fingers is
working for me.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Old fairy tale, fact ist that brass (depending on the zinc content) 
needs a lower cutting angle then steel, both tools ought to be as sharp 
edged as possible. For holes in brass larger than 10 mm, I use drill 
bits with a 90° edge (broken edge, as we say) since a 12 mm bit cougth 
once and almost smashed my ellbow by flinging the machine vise a me...
Peter


Am 23.01.2016 12:48, schrieb andy pugh:
> I have heard that there used to be a rule that new tools (taps, files) 
> were used only on brass until they started to go dull, then they would 
> be transferred to work on steel and another brand-new tool would be 
> brought in to work on brass. 


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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Roland Jollivet]

Oops, I was just going by what you said without looking up the sizes.
If it's metric coarse, then a M12 x 1.75 thread only needs a 10.2mm hole,
so 10.5 should feel easy to tap.

Regards
Roland


On 23 January 2016 at 13:12, Roland Jollivet 
wrote:

>
> I reckon that a lot of the difficulty is that the hole is too small. At
> 12mm, there is quite a lot of force involved, and you are using a
> semi-bottoming tap, and it's a blind hole, and the tap is a weaker spiral
> shape.
>
> With a 10.5 hole you are using the tap to drill as well as tap. Use 10.7
> as recommended, or even 10.8 if you want to do reduce the chance of
> breakage.
>
> A new tap should easily do the job in one pass.
>
> Regards
> Roland
>
>
> On 22 January 2016 at 19:43,  wrote:
>
>> This is the tap I am using:
>> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
>> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that
>> seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm)
>> drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using OSG's
>> tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed of 400
>> RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going to have the
>> same (torque) issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer is I just don’t
>> have enough torque at low spindle speeds to do it in one pass…
>>
>> -Tom
>>
>> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
>> >
>> > What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps from
>> > OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill for each
>> > job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal taps broke
>> > off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so the hole size
>> > was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use 75% thread depth
>> > which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for deeper depths you need a
>> > bigger hole.
>> >
>> > JT
>>
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 01:07:28 Jon Elson wrote:

> Hmmm, one other way to do this, if you don't have a lot of
> holes to do, is a single-row thread mill.
> traditional thread mills are good for only one thread
> pitch.  Single row thread mills only have one row of cutting
> edges, so you run a pass much like a single point threading
> operation, but with the cutter spinning in the spindle.  It
> does an amazing job of cutting oddball threads, and they
> look just like they were tapped.
> This, of course, is good for a mill, not usable on a lathe,
> as you need to orbit the X and Y axes as the Z withdraws up
> the hole.  (You thread from bottom to top so the hole is
> climb milled for best surface finish.)
>
> I have a generic c program to write the G-code, if anybody
> needs it.
>
> Jon

I have such a single row mill, nominally .750" OD, 1/2" shank, but have 
not ever used it for lack of knowledge how to properly drive it, and 
lack of real need to use it so far. I would appreciate a PM'd copy of 
that, "just in case".

I have been considering making me a pair of dual screw, 1.250" wooden 
screws, woodworkers vises, but the length of screw needed would exceed 
what I can do on my toy lathe, so the screw part has been put off until 
I can acquire a suitably longer lathe.  Such code would greatly simplify 
making the nuts on the mill.

I had made a couple of paddleboard vices, using 3/4" ready thread, but 
the front vise seized its screw in the nut & broke the nut holder 2 or 3 
years back, rendering a good solid woodworkers bench into a storage 
catchall.  But its top is 2x4 stock on edge, 6 foot long, planed flat, 
oil finished so dried, spilled glue can be peeled off, and it weighs in 
the 350 lb area.  A good sturdy bench, if it had working vises.  A new 
bench, ready-made with simpler vises is in the $1600-$2000 range, so I 
hate to clear a path and tow it out with my WV Cadillac just to be made 
into firewood.

Thanks Jon.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Roland Jollivet]

I reckon that a lot of the difficulty is that the hole is too small. At
12mm, there is quite a lot of force involved, and you are using a
semi-bottoming tap, and it's a blind hole, and the tap is a weaker spiral
shape.

With a 10.5 hole you are using the tap to drill as well as tap. Use 10.7 as
recommended, or even 10.8 if you want to do reduce the chance of breakage.

A new tap should easily do the job in one pass.

Regards
Roland


On 22 January 2016 at 19:43,  wrote:

> This is the tap I am using:
> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that
> seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm)
> drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using OSG's
> tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed of 400
> RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going to have the
> same (torque) issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer is I just don’t
> have enough torque at low spindle speeds to do it in one pass…
>
> -Tom
>
> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
> >
> > What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps from
> > OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill for each
> > job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal taps broke
> > off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so the hole size
> > was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use 75% thread depth
> > which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for deeper depths you need a
> > bigger hole.
> >
> > JT
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.01.16 13:23, Roland Jollivet wrote:
> Oops, I was just going by what you said without looking up the sizes.
> If it's metric coarse, then a M12 x 1.75 thread only needs a 10.2mm hole,
> so 10.5 should feel easy to tap.

The OP says M12 x 1.5, so that's what I based my mutterings on.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 23 January 2016 at 11:28, Erik Christiansen  wrote:
>
>> The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, so I am very
>> close (0.008” difference).
>
> That only gives 60% thread engagement, if counting on my fingers is
> working for me.

Most digital calipers seem to have a table on the back. Mine says
10.2mm for M12 x 1.75
(Which is no help, as this is M12 x 1.5)
M10 x 1.5 is given as 8.5, which ties in well with the 10.5mm
suggested for M12 x 1.5.

I have heard that there used to be a rule that new tools (taps, files)
were used only on brass until they started to go dull, then they would
be transferred to work on steel and another brand-new tool would be
brought in to work on brass.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 23 January 2016 at 16:53, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use a .85
> multiplier.

The idealised depth of thread for a perfectly sharp 60 degree thread
with no rounding or flats is:
(pitch/2) * tan(60) = 0.866p
The core size of the thread is this D - 2 * 0.866p = D - 1.72p
However: There is an H/4 flat on the internal thread, so the real
thread core is D - 1.22p

If you drill a hole of D-1p then you are at about 78% engagement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 12:08:47 andy pugh wrote:

> On 23 January 2016 at 16:53, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use
> > a .85 multiplier.
>
> The idealised depth of thread for a perfectly sharp 60 degree thread
> with no rounding or flats is:
> (pitch/2) * tan(60) = 0.866p
> The core size of the thread is this D - 2 * 0.866p = D - 1.72p
> However: There is an H/4 flat on the internal thread, so the real
> thread core is D - 1.22p
>
> If you drill a hole of D-1p then you are at about 78% engagement.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

Now we are getting more precise than we can drill with the typical drill 
bit, which usually drills oversize because the tip flats are 
un-avoidably off center. Even to a small extent for pricy carbide bits 
in the smaller sizes.  Yesterdays finished tapping looked great, but I 
think I could have used the next larger #drill. Yeah, my back of a 
napkin said a .089 drill, kcalc says 0.0984251968503937008 for a 3mm.5 
screw.

No wonder I felt like I should peck it, the hole WAS too small.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Gene,
without being able to read what is engraved on them drill bits: those 
look decent, the metal box and the price suggest they are of better 
quality. Just about like mine I have been using for the last 35 years:
https://www.hoffmann-group.com/DE/de/hom/Monozerspanung/HSS-Bohrer/Spiralbohrer-Satz-HSS-E-Nr-114450-mit-Kassette-1-10-GARANT/p/115320
Some of them are a bit shorter now from sharpening, very few were broken 
and have been replaced. Never compromise on tools.
Peter

Am 23.01.2016 17:53, schrieb Gene Heskett:
> On Saturday 23 January 2016 06:18:55 Peter Blodow wrote:
>
>> Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal
>> thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12, or 6
>> - 1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.
> Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use a .85
> multiplier.  I made a couple 3mm holes yesterday when carving up a
> temporary camera mount, applied that rule and used a .089 # drill as the
> starter hole.  Had about the taps length to do as the screws I had were
> 12mm long and the material was 1/2" thick. Not wanting to load up the
> tap and break it since it was a crap Irwin/Hanson, I pecked it by hand
> from the mdi command line, 3mm at a time.  Worked great.  But I need to
> junk that set of drills, they are gold painted wheel weights & only good
> for 3 or 4 holes in alu before the edge is gone. I had bought one of
> those 115 piece things for about a $30 bill several years ago, and half
> of them have burned up or broken, and most are too small to be worked
> over by the original drill doctor.  Its good for big bits, but has bad
> centering problems when you get below about 3/16"
>
> Looking at the fleabay offerings, what does this group think about Drill
> Hog?  Like these:
>
> 
>
> [...]
>
> Thanks everybody!
>
> We have about 14" of snow on flat areas, and its still building, perhaps
> an inch/hour. A winter wonderland out, if I didn't have to clear some of
> it when it finally does stop.  I stuck an arm & camera out the back
> door, and my rider and 20 kw standby are just tall lumps in the snow,
> completely covered.
>
> For those of you sort of on the "right coast" with me, orders from
> Grandpa Gene: don't go have a heart attack shoveling it.  Ya'll hear?
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Drew Rogge]

Thanks Tom.

On 1/22/16 6:31 PM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> We ordered the 1024ppr encoder (EM1-2-1024-I): 
> http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/EM1#description
> with this disk: 
> http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/rotary/disks/DISK-2
> and this cable: 
> http://www.usdigital.com/products/cables-connectors/cables/5-pin/CA-C5-SH-NC
>
> Attached is a link to the only (stp) file I could find of the encoder mount.  
> I tapped the small holes in this bracket by hand with a 4-40 tap (don’t tell 
> anyone I used SAE screws on a metric only machine!) to mount the encoder to 
> it.  The countersunk holes (using an M4 screw I believe) held this mount to 
> the backplate of the encoder housing with the same screws that held the EMCO 
> encoder to it..  I then adjusted the encoder wheel to line up in the slot as 
> it should using the stock Emco disk mounting hardware which is adjustable.  I 
> can’t be sure that I didn’t modify the dimensions of this drawing for the 
> final part but I don’t recall doing that.  I usually have my gcode or job 
> file but I can’t seem to find them.  I was only making one so I may have 
> failed to save it…
>
> bgp.nu:/~tom/pub/EMCO120P-NewEncoderBrakt.stp
>
> -Tom
>

-- 
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d...@dasrogges.com

Phone: 8934OOO629OO4829631OOO


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Gene,
0.091" (=2,3 mm) would be perfectly in the DIN / ISO range. I use 2.4 mm 
for easy working if strength is not the issue.
More, my drills are all produced a little under their nominal size, 
maybe a few hundreths, to allow for de-centering of the cutting blades 
in order to give a correct result when the hole is done. Admittedly, 
it's not easy to keep that up when re-sharpening by hand...
In order to reduce the cutting forces and risk of breakage, all hand tap 
drills come in sets of three beginning with a straiht tip with drill 
blades to make sure the hole is not too small and keep the threads 
perpendicular to the surface.
Peter


Am 23.01.2016 18:27, schrieb Gene Heskett:
> On
> Now we are getting more precise than we can drill with the typical drill
> bit, which usually drills oversize because the tip flats are
> un-avoidably off center. Even to a small extent for pricy carbide bits
> in the smaller sizes.  Yesterdays finished tapping looked great, but I
> think I could have used the next larger #drill. Yeah, my back of a
> napkin said a .089 drill, kcalc says 0.0984251968503937008 for a 3mm.5
> screw.
>
> No wonder I felt like I should peck it, the hole WAS too small.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 06:18:55 Peter Blodow wrote:

> Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal
> thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12, or 6
> - 1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.

Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use a .85 
multiplier.  I made a couple 3mm holes yesterday when carving up a 
temporary camera mount, applied that rule and used a .089 # drill as the 
starter hole.  Had about the taps length to do as the screws I had were 
12mm long and the material was 1/2" thick. Not wanting to load up the 
tap and break it since it was a crap Irwin/Hanson, I pecked it by hand 
from the mdi command line, 3mm at a time.  Worked great.  But I need to 
junk that set of drills, they are gold painted wheel weights & only good 
for 3 or 4 holes in alu before the edge is gone. I had bought one of 
those 115 piece things for about a $30 bill several years ago, and half 
of them have burned up or broken, and most are too small to be worked 
over by the original drill doctor.  Its good for big bits, but has bad 
centering problems when you get below about 3/16"

Looking at the fleabay offerings, what does this group think about Drill 
Hog?  Like these:



[...]

Thanks everybody!

We have about 14" of snow on flat areas, and its still building, perhaps 
an inch/hour. A winter wonderland out, if I didn't have to clear some of 
it when it finally does stop.  I stuck an arm & camera out the back 
door, and my rider and 20 kw standby are just tall lumps in the snow, 
completely covered.

For those of you sort of on the "right coast" with me, orders from 
Grandpa Gene: don't go have a heart attack shoveling it.  Ya'll hear?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 12:21:03 Peter Blodow wrote:

> Gene,
> without being able to read what is engraved on them drill bits: those
> look decent, the metal box and the price suggest they are of better
> quality. Just about like mine I have been using for the last 35 years:
> https://www.hoffmann-group.com/DE/de/hom/Monozerspanung/HSS-Bohrer/Spi
>ralbohrer-Satz-HSS-E-Nr-114450-mit-Kassette-1-10-GARANT/p/115320 Some
> of them are a bit shorter now from sharpening, very few were broken
> and have been replaced. Never compromise on tools.
> Peter

That was my impression too.  Did you note the propaganda on the steel?  
Melts at something north of 4000F! I think they will be mine.

> Am 23.01.2016 17:53, schrieb Gene Heskett:
> > On Saturday 23 January 2016 06:18:55 Peter Blodow wrote:
> >> Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal
> >> thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12,
> >> or 6 - 1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.
> >
> > Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use
> > a .85 multiplier.  I made a couple 3mm holes yesterday when carving
> > up a temporary camera mount, applied that rule and used a .089 #
> > drill as the starter hole.  Had about the taps length to do as the
> > screws I had were 12mm long and the material was 1/2" thick. Not
> > wanting to load up the tap and break it since it was a crap
> > Irwin/Hanson, I pecked it by hand from the mdi command line, 3mm at
> > a time.  Worked great.  But I need to junk that set of drills, they
> > are gold painted wheel weights & only good for 3 or 4 holes in alu
> > before the edge is gone. I had bought one of those 115 piece things
> > for about a $30 bill several years ago, and half of them have burned
> > up or broken, and most are too small to be worked over by the
> > original drill doctor.  Its good for big bits, but has bad centering
> > problems when you get below about 3/16"
> >
> > Looking at the fleabay offerings, what does this group think about
> > Drill Hog?  Like these:
> >
> >  >auge-HI-MOLY-M7-USA-Lifetime-Warranty-/181752876465?hash=item2a5150cd
> >b1:g:x4oAAOSwMmBVrQ3a>
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Thanks everybody!
> >
> > We have about 14" of snow on flat areas, and its still building,
> > perhaps an inch/hour. A winter wonderland out, if I didn't have to
> > clear some of it when it finally does stop.  I stuck an arm & camera
> > out the back door, and my rider and 20 kw standby are just tall
> > lumps in the snow, completely covered.
> >
> > For those of you sort of on the "right coast" with me, orders from
> > Grandpa Gene: don't go have a heart attack shoveling it.  Ya'll
> > hear?
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 12:51:59 Peter Blodow wrote:

> Gene,
> 0.091" (=2,3 mm) would be perfectly in the DIN / ISO range. I use 2.4
> mm for easy working if strength is not the issue.
> More, my drills are all produced a little under their nominal size,
> maybe a few hundreths, to allow for de-centering of the cutting blades
> in order to give a correct result when the hole is done. Admittedly,
> it's not easy to keep that up when re-sharpening by hand...
> In order to reduce the cutting forces and risk of breakage, all hand
> tap drills come in sets of three beginning with a straiht tip with
> drill blades to make sure the hole is not too small and keep the
> threads perpendicular to the surface.
> Peter

That bit of luxury has appeared to have faded from the scene with the 
shift of so damned many of the tools we can afford to buy, being 
imported from China. I can recall in 1959, when I was a bench tech for 
Oceanographic Engineering, the machinist we hired to help us make the 
pressure cases for the tv cameras we installed on the Trieste just 
before its singular trip down into the mohole in Feb 1960, and who came 
with his own tools except for a huge english made lathe we bought, & one 
of his prized posessions was a full set of fractional, lettered, and 
numbered drill bits, for brass.  All straight flute. He also had a small 
electric motor that spun a 3" brass disk that was occasionally annointed 
with a drop of oil & diamond dust, and had several jigs drilled at all 
sorts of angles that he used to sharpen tools with. No carbide tools in 
his kit, but he spent perhaps 2 minutes tuning up a 1/2" square lathe 
tool, and it carved bronze (we started with a 7" diameter "Naval" bronze 
rod about 2 feet long for each camera housing) and made a couple lbs of 
swarf before it went back to the diamond again. And left a finish you 
could have used for a shaving mirror in a pinch. The Navy gave us the 
quartz windows for the front of it, along with the drawings for how to 
seal it into the front of the case.  But at an estimated psi of nearly 
18,000 down there, that machinist was schmardt enough to adjust the 
dimensions just enough to keep the bronze from crushing the quartz while 
still remaining tight and waterproof at only 1000 feet down.

Since it was powered by a piece of RG-59 thru a packing gland in the rear 
of the case, I wanted to see that, and how it was prevented from 
squirting thru the gland, but he worked a weekend I didn't and it was 
already done Monday morning. It got its 12 volt power, and shipped the 
video back on a 10 Mhz carrier in the same cable.  But the Trieste had 
no coax ports into it.  The Navy gave us 9 ea 16 gauge pieces of Packard 
automotive wire to run 2 cameras and 2 pan & tilt assemblies with. We 
had an engineer who was good with sequentiaL relay logic who worked out 
how we could do all that on 3 wires, leaving 6 for the cameras.

As for the video, we thought we'd better test that wire, so we bought a 
1000 gallon stock tank, threw 500 lbs of salt in it and filled it with a 
small pump and a hose from mission bay which was in our back yard.  

Stired it up till the salt was all disolved, threw in 50 feet of that 
wire in random loose fashion, and put our sweep generator on it.  Blew 
us away when we found that as long as our gear was grounded to the tank, 
it was, as said by another of our design engineers "flatter than a plate 
of pee", and it actually worked quite well when hooked up in the gondola 
& set back down in 15 feet of water off the end of our dock.  And worked 
equally well down in the mohole.

Only one casualty to that gear in that dive.  We had taken a more or less 
std issue Halomore pan & tilt assembly, cut the top of the housing off, 
filled it with ATF and after drilling a vent hole in the top, put it 
back on with a rubber gasket diaphram to keep the oil & sea water 
separated.  Sealed with RTV IIRC.  But one of them must have had an air 
pocket and didn't fill to a no void condition.  At nearly 18,000 psi, 
the middle of the diaphram pushed down far enough a tilt gear ground a 
hole in it. So when we opened it up to see why it wasn't working a week 
later, we found the hole, and the unit full of seawater & oil sludge. 
But it had done the job it was sent to do so it was just a shrug for all 
concerned.

Way off topic but possibly interesting to others.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Jon Elson]

On 01/23/2016 02:27 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I would appreciate a PM'd copy of that, "just in case".
It is online, at http://pico-systems.com/gcode.html

Look near the bottom for "Thread Milling".  You need to bore 
the hole to about the minor diameter of the thread first.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Bengt Sjölund]

Both yes and no depending of tool you have.

I use these from 
https://shop.vhf.de/articleGroups/Circular-thread-cutters-W_GW_BGF.htm
Easy to do flat bottom threaded holes.

Bengt

Den 2016-01-23 kl. 21:43, skrev Jon Elson:
> On 01/23/2016 02:27 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> I would appreciate a PM'd copy of that, "just in case".
> It is online, at http://pico-systems.com/gcode.html
>
> Look near the bottom for "Thread Milling".  You need to bore
> the hole to about the minor diameter of the thread first.
>
> Jon
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 January 2016 14:07:00 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Friday 22 January 2016 13:39:21 Sarah Armstrong wrote:
> > yes i agree , single point would be a far better option , when you
> > dont have the horsepower ,
>
> So at some point, I need a boring head with an R8 rear end on it.
> Something I haven't yet acquired.
>
> Thanks Sarah.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

But, in looking over the offerings, I note at least 3 gotcha's.

1. No, or very few, indexable tools short and fat enough of a shank as to 
be usefull using a G33.1 rigid tapping drive.  What I have, at 3.5+ 
inches long, has too small a shank to fit the smallest heads, and it 
certainly won't do anything but chatter & wreck the chip if its sticking 
out 2.75".

2. They all screw onto the R8 shank, which leaves the possibility of it 
unscrewing itself from the R8 if the reversal is too violent, which on 
my machine is a definite possibility.

3. Since it would not have a tip withdrawal for backout clearance like 
G76 does, the tip is going to be drug backwards coming back out of the 
hole with that friction adding to the developed heat.  The question is, 
will that be enough heat to stop the chatter/shatter? IDK.

I read more  minuses than plusses.  Handy for boring an arbitrarily large 
hole perhaps, but is that not why we have G2/G3 for?  The only advantage 
might be a faster bore, but all the stopping and fooling with the offset 
dial would eat up that faster time. Probably a more cylindrical bore 
since the tool shank flex is the same at the bottom of the hole as it is 
at the entrance, But so far, knock on wood, that has not been a problem 
in what I've done.

So until I can convince myself its a better way, I think I'll just write 
the gcode to do it.

Thanks all;

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Jon Elson]

On 01/22/2016 09:58 AM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> I need some advice rigid tapping on an Emco120p lathe.

> When I ran my first attempt at 300 rpm the tap went in, perhaps to full 
> depth, and then stalled.
Well, if your spindle stalled, I'm not sure you have any 
real options.  Even peck tapping is kind of a kludge.
You need more spindle torque.  If there is no back gear or 
other way to get more torque, you need a bigger motor.  You 
say 3.5 Hp at 50-3000 RPM.  Well, the problem is at constant 
torque, with 3.5 HP at 3000 RPM you get 0.35 Hp at 300 RPM 
(assuming no belt or gear changes).

I've tapped aluminum fixture plates with 10-32 at something 
like 600 RPM with a 1 HP Bridgeport.
But, 12 mm is quite a bit bigger.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[John Thornton]

I have a SECO internal threading bar SNR 0005055-11 if your careful you 
can cut 9/16 internal threads with it.

JT

On 1/22/2016 1:15 PM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> What are your favorite internal single point threading tools?  I don’t have 
> one (yet) and haven’t tried any internal threads.  How small can you go doing 
> that?   Did I mention I’m not a “real” machinist :-)
>
> Thanks everyone for all the good info!
> -Tom
>
>> On Jan 22, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>
>> On Friday 22 January 2016 13:39:21 Sarah Armstrong wrote:
>>
>>> yes i agree , single point would be a far better option , when you
>>> dont have the horsepower ,
>>>
>> So at some point, I need a boring head with an R8 rear end on it.
>> Something I haven't yet acquired.
>>
>> Thanks Sarah.
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> -- 
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> Genes Web page 
>>
>> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 January 2016 14:15:11 tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:

> What are your favorite internal single point threading tools?  I don’t
> have one (yet) and haven’t tried any internal threads.  How small can
> you go doing that?   Did I mention I’m not a “real” machinist :-)
>
> Thanks everyone for all the good info!

I found a small, 2 tool with 4 spare inserts each, from a Brit site 
suggested by Andy about 2 years ago, forgot the price, had a little 
bitty alu "briefcase" with form fitting inserts, about the same size as 
two packs on 100mill cigarette packs laid edge to edge. I am still on 
the OEM inserts, but it seems its boring internals cleaner than the 
matching externals. Brand stamped on the 5/16" shanks, but thats 30 feet 
of snow 6" deep out the back door here in the 120 mile inland realm of 
the right coast, with whats being called the blizzard of the century by 
the weather prognostigaters.  None of which were even a gleam in daddies 
eye when I was born.  I've been thru several such hoodoozies in my 81 
years.  I've a decent stock of edibles, a nat gas 20kw generator in case 
a powerline goes down, A good down jacket and a bright orange cap with 
good ear muffs, and a couple snowshovels. Barring a stroke or heart 
attack, I'll be right here next friday. :)

Perhaps Andy might recall that URL?
> -Tom
>
> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >
> > On Friday 22 January 2016 13:39:21 Sarah Armstrong wrote:
> >> yes i agree , single point would be a far better option , when you
> >> dont have the horsepower ,
> >
> > So at some point, I need a boring head with an R8 rear end on it.
> > Something I haven't yet acquired.
> >
> > Thanks Sarah.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
> > "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> > -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> > Genes Web page 
> >
> > 
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Ed]

On 01/22/2016 09:58 AM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> I need some advice rigid tapping on an Emco120p lathe.  The lathe has a 3.5HP 
> motor that can go from 50-3000rpm.  It can travel at about 120 ipm (maybe 150 
> ipm, but haven’t  verified it’s max yet).  Spindle torque drops off as I go 
> down in lower rpm range, of course.  I have done some tapping of aluminum 
> (mostly) and not very deep, say 0.5” or less, and I usually do that at about 
> 300 rpm successfully.  However, I am now threading some brass to about 0.75” 
> deep with a substantial M12 1.5 tap (6H, semi-bottoming, spiral flute) and 
> have some problems. I am using a 10.5mm initial hole in the part.  When I ran 
> my first attempt at 300 rpm the tap went in, perhaps to full depth, and then 
> stalled.  I had quick reflexes (easier at 300rpm!) and was able to stop it in 
> order not to break the tap or drag the part out of the collet or both.  I 
> then backed the tap out by hand.  I solved immediate problem by 
> “peck-tapping”.  I tap to final depth by stepping down 1/8” at a time.  This 
> seems to work fine, I have a spindle encoder of course, and so spindle and 
> movement are coordinated in order to to multiple entries on the exactly the 
> same start point.   Nice thing about pecking is that I can clear the chips 
> off the tap and spray in some lubricant between each pass.  Is there anything 
> “wrong” with peck tapping?

Nothing wrong with peck tapping. In many cases it lets you replenish 
lube as you have noticed. Make the first peck fairly deep then go 
shallower as you go deeper, you should be able to do this in 2 or 3 pecks.


>
> However, I often see videos of machining centers just spinning way a high 
> speed tapping like it’s no big deal.  Should I be tapping at much higher 
> spindle speed in order to have more torque?

Faster spindle gives you more HP and inertia



>   Will the spindle be able to stop and reverse at those speeds to pull it 
> off?  I have aggressive start/stop settings on the VFD that controls the 
> spindle, the encoder is 1024ppr quadrature….


In Linuxcnc the spindle is commanded forward until the tap gets to the 
depth called for, as the spindle slows to reverse out the Z axis follows 
and you get an overrun, the tap is reversed out to the start Z, the 
spindle is commanded off and the Z continues to overrun up to stop then 
goes back forward to the initial start point.


>
> IPM = RPM X pitch(mm) X 0.03937 so at 2000rpm it would be moving at 118 IPM, 
> within it’s capability.  Or at 1500rpm it would be 89 IPM.   I would like to 
> not break my $30 M12 tap so have been afraid to just go for it, but wondering 
> what a real machinist would do? I am not one. :-)
>



You can run a tap quite fast in brass as long as the tap is "like new" 
sharp, a slightly dull tap that will cut steel will bind in the copper 
alloys and sometimes wedge very tight.

I tap 5/8-11 in C1045 steel at 200RPM on my CHNC quite often, M12x1.5 
should be a cake walk.

Ed.







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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 January 2016 12:43:35 tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:

> This is the tap I am using:
> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482 The
> drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that
> seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm)
> drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using
> OSG's tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed
> of 400 RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going
> to have the same (torque) issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer
> is I just don’t have enough torque at low spindle speeds to do it in
> one pass…
>
> -Tom

Spinning a 12mm tap in my G0704, in low backgear, will likely require a 
not more than 1/4 turn deeper per peck cycle. Its only a 1 horse.

A 10mm tap made it do some serious belly dragging, but did get it done at 
a turn per peck.  It also did a 3/8 USS tap into a slightly undersized 
hole in a white ash jig base, but I used all the tap, at about a turn 
per peck.  Made great threads in the wood, and for a change, the studs 
stood dead straight up!

> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
> >
> > What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps
> > from OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill
> > for each job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal
> > taps broke off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so
> > the hole size was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use
> > 75% thread depth which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for
> > deeper depths you need a bigger hole.
> >
> > JT
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[John Kasunich]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016, at 02:07 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 22 January 2016 13:39:21 Sarah Armstrong wrote:
> 
> > yes i agree , single point would be a far better option , when you
> > dont have the horsepower ,
> >
> So at some point, I need a boring head with an R8 rear end on it.  
> Something I haven't yet acquired.
> 

I think they're talking about single-pointing in a lathe (which is where
this thread started).  No boring head needed, just an appropriately
shaped tool bit in a boring bar.


-- 
  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 January 2016 13:08:09 John Thornton wrote:

> I was close too trying to deep hole tap the 7075 but close didn't cut
> it. I had to buy the recommend bit. Is your spindle stalling out? Oh I
> read your initial post again, cool thing in LinuxCNC the axis follows
> the spindle so if it stalls nothing moves.
>
> JT
>
Correct John. Stalled, kill the spindle power only, grab a chuck wrench 
and back it out, the carriage follows the hand reversal just like a 
hungry puppy. Gotta love it. :)
> On 1/22/2016 11:43 AM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> > This is the tap I am using:
> > http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482 The
> > drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say
> > that seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64”
> > (10.7mm) drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I
> > was using OSG's tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a
> > spindle speed of 400 RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I
> > suspect I am going to have the same (torque) issue I had before. 
> > And perhaps the answer is I just don’t have enough torque at low
> > spindle speeds to do it in one pass…
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> >> On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
> >>
> >> What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps
> >> from OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and
> >> drill for each job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my
> >> normal taps broke off. I used the tool and got the right tap and
> >> drill so the hole size was correct for the job. Tapping charts
> >> usually use 75% thread depth which is usually OK for a depth =
> >> diameter, for deeper depths you need a bigger hole.
> >>
> >> JT
> >
> > 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[tom-emc]

What are your favorite internal single point threading tools?  I don’t have one 
(yet) and haven’t tried any internal threads.  How small can you go doing that? 
  Did I mention I’m not a “real” machinist :-)

Thanks everyone for all the good info!
-Tom

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> 
> On Friday 22 January 2016 13:39:21 Sarah Armstrong wrote:
> 
>> yes i agree , single point would be a far better option , when you
>> dont have the horsepower ,
>> 
> So at some point, I need a boring head with an R8 rear end on it.  
> Something I haven't yet acquired.
> 
> Thanks Sarah.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 22 January 2016 at 19:15,   wrote:
>  How small can you go doing that?

https://www.phorn.de/blaetterkatalog/supermini/
(Page A14)

Looks like smaller than 3mm would be difficult.

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Sarah Armstrong]

Horsepower is you biggest enemy here , you need as much as you can get .

On 22 January 2016 at 17:58, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 22 January 2016 12:43:35 tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
>
> > This is the tap I am using:
> > http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482 The
> > drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that
> > seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm)
> > drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using
> > OSG's tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed
> > of 400 RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going
> > to have the same (torque) issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer
> > is I just don’t have enough torque at low spindle speeds to do it in
> > one pass…
> >
> > -Tom
>
> Spinning a 12mm tap in my G0704, in low backgear, will likely require a
> not more than 1/4 turn deeper per peck cycle. Its only a 1 horse.
>
> A 10mm tap made it do some serious belly dragging, but did get it done at
> a turn per peck.  It also did a 3/8 USS tap into a slightly undersized
> hole in a white ash jig base, but I used all the tap, at about a turn
> per peck.  Made great threads in the wood, and for a change, the studs
> stood dead straight up!
>
> > > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
> > >
> > > What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps
> > > from OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill
> > > for each job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal
> > > taps broke off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so
> > > the hole size was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use
> > > 75% thread depth which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for
> > > deeper depths you need a bigger hole.
> > >
> > > JT
> >
> > --
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>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 22 January 2016 at 19:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> So at some point, I need a boring head with an R8 rear end on it.
> Something I haven't yet acquired.

I think this was on a lathe, but it is possible to single-point thread
with a boring head and a G33.1 move, I have done it.

Another option on a mill is thread-milling. (This wasn't an option in
my case, there wasn't really room for a thread mill)
https://youtu.be/i4fTythQj5s?t=1m

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[John Thornton]

I was close too trying to deep hole tap the 7075 but close didn't cut 
it. I had to buy the recommend bit. Is your spindle stalling out? Oh I 
read your initial post again, cool thing in LinuxCNC the axis follows 
the spindle so if it stalls nothing moves.

JT

On 1/22/2016 11:43 AM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> This is the tap I am using: 
> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that 
> seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, 
> so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using OSG's tap they 
> recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed of 400 RPM.  I can try 
> that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going to have the same (torque) 
> issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer is I just don’t have enough 
> torque at low spindle speeds to do it in one pass…
>
> -Tom
>
>> On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
>>
>> What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps from
>> OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill for each
>> job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal taps broke
>> off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so the hole size
>> was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use 75% thread depth
>> which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for deeper depths you need a
>> bigger hole.
>>
>> JT
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Bengt Sjölund]

M12, why bother with tapping? Go for single point and no power issues 
like with tapping.
Cheers
Bengt

Den 2016-01-22 kl. 19:12, skrev Sarah Armstrong:
> Horsepower is you biggest enemy here , you need as much as you can get .
>
> On 22 January 2016 at 17:58, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
>> On Friday 22 January 2016 12:43:35 tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
>>
>>> This is the tap I am using:
>>> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482 The
>>> drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that
>>> seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm)
>>> drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using
>>> OSG's tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed
>>> of 400 RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going
>>> to have the same (torque) issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer
>>> is I just don’t have enough torque at low spindle speeds to do it in
>>> one pass…
>>>
>>> -Tom
>> Spinning a 12mm tap in my G0704, in low backgear, will likely require a
>> not more than 1/4 turn deeper per peck cycle. Its only a 1 horse.
>>
>> A 10mm tap made it do some serious belly dragging, but did get it done at
>> a turn per peck.  It also did a 3/8 USS tap into a slightly undersized
>> hole in a white ash jig base, but I used all the tap, at about a turn
>> per peck.  Made great threads in the wood, and for a change, the studs
>> stood dead straight up!
>>
 On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:

 What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps
 from OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill
 for each job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal
 taps broke off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so
 the hole size was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use
 75% thread depth which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for
 deeper depths you need a bigger hole.

 JT
>>> --
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>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>> --
>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
>> Genes Web page 
>>
>>
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>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Sarah Armstrong]

yes i agree , single point would be a far better option , when you dont
have the horsepower ,

On 22 January 2016 at 18:17, Bengt Sjölund  wrote:

> M12, why bother with tapping? Go for single point and no power issues
> like with tapping.
> Cheers
> Bengt
>
> Den 2016-01-22 kl. 19:12, skrev Sarah Armstrong:
> > Horsepower is you biggest enemy here , you need as much as you can get .
> >
> > On 22 January 2016 at 17:58, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >
> >> On Friday 22 January 2016 12:43:35 tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> >>
> >>> This is the tap I am using:
> >>> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482 The
> >>> drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that
> >>> seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm)
> >>> drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using
> >>> OSG's tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed
> >>> of 400 RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going
> >>> to have the same (torque) issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer
> >>> is I just don’t have enough torque at low spindle speeds to do it in
> >>> one pass…
> >>>
> >>> -Tom
> >> Spinning a 12mm tap in my G0704, in low backgear, will likely require a
> >> not more than 1/4 turn deeper per peck cycle. Its only a 1 horse.
> >>
> >> A 10mm tap made it do some serious belly dragging, but did get it done
> at
> >> a turn per peck.  It also did a 3/8 USS tap into a slightly undersized
> >> hole in a white ash jig base, but I used all the tap, at about a turn
> >> per peck.  Made great threads in the wood, and for a change, the studs
> >> stood dead straight up!
> >>
>  On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
> 
>  What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps
>  from OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill
>  for each job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal
>  taps broke off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so
>  the hole size was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use
>  75% thread depth which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for
>  deeper depths you need a bigger hole.
> 
>  JT
> >>> --
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> >>
> >> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> >> --
> >> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
> >>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> >> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> >> Genes Web page 
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 January 2016 13:39:21 Sarah Armstrong wrote:

> yes i agree , single point would be a far better option , when you
> dont have the horsepower ,
>
So at some point, I need a boring head with an R8 rear end on it.  
Something I haven't yet acquired.

Thanks Sarah.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Drew Rogge]

Hi Tom,

How did you end up mounting the new encoder to your EMCO? I'd like to do the 
same thing to mine.

Drew

On 1/22/16 7:58 AM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
>
> However, I often see videos of machining centers just spinning way a high 
> speed tapping like it’s no big deal.  Should I be tapping at much higher 
> spindle speed in order to have more torque?  Will the spindle be able to stop 
> and reverse at those speeds to pull it off?  I have aggressive start/stop 
> settings on the VFD that controls the spindle, the encoder is 1024ppr 
> quadrature….
>
>
> -Tom
>
>
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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Greg Bentzinger]

Single point threading - my best was a M6 x .5 20mm depth using a Micro-100 
solid carbide mini threading bar in 303 Stainless.
Thread milling - #6-32 with a usable thread depth of .470" in 6061 AL.

Andy's boring head tapping (X axis) - I have lost many carbide threading 
inserts which chipped when run backwards. On inch thread engine lathes with a 
metric change gear you are usually required to not disengage the half nut 
during the threading operation so you back off the cross slide and reverse the 
spindle to get back to your start point. If you don't back off the part 
deflection puts enough pressure on the insert tooth that it tends to chip. For 
some insert geometries you can get 5% Cobalt HSS inserts and these are ideal 
for this type of usage.

That said - I'd do it like Andy did since its a one time do or die type job and 
use a number insert points as needed.

Greg

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 22 January 2016 at 22:04, Greg Bentzinger  wrote:
> Thread milling - #6-32 with a usable thread depth of .470" in 6061 AL.

I know a chap who has thread-milled M2 in titanium. That's a 1.6mm
hole and a thread mill that costs £130.

16th picture down http://www.f1-2000.co.uk/index.php?f=conrods

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 22 January 2016 at 21:33, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Perhaps Andy might recall that URL?

It is only likely to have been:

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk

or

http://www.rdgtools.co.uk

or possibly

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk

with a (very) outside bet on

http://www.amadeal.co.uk

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Jon Elson]

Hmmm, one other way to do this, if you don't have a lot of 
holes to do, is a single-row thread mill.
traditional thread mills are good for only one thread 
pitch.  Single row thread mills only have one row of cutting 
edges, so you run a pass much like a single point threading 
operation, but with the cutter spinning in the spindle.  It 
does an amazing job of cutting oddball threads, and they 
look just like they were tapped.
This, of course, is good for a mill, not usable on a lathe, 
as you need to orbit the X and Y axes as the Z withdraws up 
the hole.  (You thread from bottom to top so the hole is 
climb milled for best surface finish.)

I have a generic c program to write the G-code, if anybody 
needs it.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Todd Zuercher]

(I have no experience tapping).  But breaking a $30 bit sounds like more of an 
inconvenience than anything.  We have some $600+ bits.  Those really make me 
wince when they brake (At least those can usually be rebuilt by the 
manufacturer for about 1/2 the cost of new).  I'd say let er rip. (but you 
might want to order some spares first.)

- Original Message -
From: tom-...@bgp.nu
To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 10:58:13 AM
Subject: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

I need some advice rigid tapping on an Emco120p lathe.  The lathe has a 3.5HP 
motor that can go from 50-3000rpm.  It can travel at about 120 ipm (maybe 150 
ipm, but haven’t  verified it’s max yet).  Spindle torque drops off as I go 
down in lower rpm range, of course.  I have done some tapping of aluminum 
(mostly) and not very deep, say 0.5” or less, and I usually do that at about 
300 rpm successfully.  However, I am now threading some brass to about 0.75” 
deep with a substantial M12 1.5 tap (6H, semi-bottoming, spiral flute) and have 
some problems. I am using a 10.5mm initial hole in the part.  When I ran my 
first attempt at 300 rpm the tap went in, perhaps to full depth, and then 
stalled.  I had quick reflexes (easier at 300rpm!) and was able to stop it in 
order not to break the tap or drag the part out of the collet or both.  I then 
backed the tap out by hand.  I solved immediate problem by “peck-tapping”.  I 
tap to final depth by stepping down 1/8” at a time.  This seems to work fine, I 
have a spindle encoder of course, and so spindle and movement are coordinated 
in order to to multiple entries on the exactly the same start point.   Nice 
thing about pecking is that I can clear the chips off the tap and spray in some 
lubricant between each pass.  Is there anything “wrong” with peck tapping?

However, I often see videos of machining centers just spinning way a high speed 
tapping like it’s no big deal.  Should I be tapping at much higher spindle 
speed in order to have more torque?  Will the spindle be able to stop and 
reverse at those speeds to pull it off?  I have aggressive start/stop settings 
on the VFD that controls the spindle, the encoder is 1024ppr quadrature….

IPM = RPM X pitch(mm) X 0.03937 so at 2000rpm it would be moving at 118 IPM, 
within it’s capability.  Or at 1500rpm it would be 89 IPM.   I would like to 
not break my $30 M12 tap so have been afraid to just go for it, but wondering 
what a real machinist would do? I am not one. :-)

-Tom


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[John Thornton]

What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps from 
OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill for each 
job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal taps broke 
off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so the hole size 
was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use 75% thread depth 
which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for deeper depths you need a 
bigger hole.

JT

On 1/22/2016 9:58 AM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> I need some advice rigid tapping on an Emco120p lathe.  The lathe has a 3.5HP 
> motor that can go from 50-3000rpm.  It can travel at about 120 ipm (maybe 150 
> ipm, but haven’t  verified it’s max yet).  Spindle torque drops off as I go 
> down in lower rpm range, of course.  I have done some tapping of aluminum 
> (mostly) and not very deep, say 0.5” or less, and I usually do that at about 
> 300 rpm successfully.  However, I am now threading some brass to about 0.75” 
> deep with a substantial M12 1.5 tap (6H, semi-bottoming, spiral flute) and 
> have some problems. I am using a 10.5mm initial hole in the part.  When I ran 
> my first attempt at 300 rpm the tap went in, perhaps to full depth, and then 
> stalled.  I had quick reflexes (easier at 300rpm!) and was able to stop it in 
> order not to break the tap or drag the part out of the collet or both.  I 
> then backed the tap out by hand.  I solved immediate problem by 
> “peck-tapping”.  I tap to final depth by stepping down 1/8” at a time.  This 
> seems to work fine, I have a spindle encoder of course, and so spindle and 
> movement are coordinated in order to to multiple entries on the exactly the 
> same start point.   Nice thing about pecking is that I can clear the chips 
> off the tap and spray in some lubricant between each pass.  Is there anything 
> “wrong” with peck tapping?
>
> However, I often see videos of machining centers just spinning way a high 
> speed tapping like it’s no big deal.  Should I be tapping at much higher 
> spindle speed in order to have more torque?  Will the spindle be able to stop 
> and reverse at those speeds to pull it off?  I have aggressive start/stop 
> settings on the VFD that controls the spindle, the encoder is 1024ppr 
> quadrature….
>
> IPM = RPM X pitch(mm) X 0.03937 so at 2000rpm it would be moving at 118 IPM, 
> within it’s capability.  Or at 1500rpm it would be 89 IPM.   I would like to 
> not break my $30 M12 tap so have been afraid to just go for it, but wondering 
> what a real machinist would do? I am not one. :-)
>
> -Tom
>
>
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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[tom-emc]

I need some advice rigid tapping on an Emco120p lathe.  The lathe has a 3.5HP 
motor that can go from 50-3000rpm.  It can travel at about 120 ipm (maybe 150 
ipm, but haven’t  verified it’s max yet).  Spindle torque drops off as I go 
down in lower rpm range, of course.  I have done some tapping of aluminum 
(mostly) and not very deep, say 0.5” or less, and I usually do that at about 
300 rpm successfully.  However, I am now threading some brass to about 0.75” 
deep with a substantial M12 1.5 tap (6H, semi-bottoming, spiral flute) and have 
some problems. I am using a 10.5mm initial hole in the part.  When I ran my 
first attempt at 300 rpm the tap went in, perhaps to full depth, and then 
stalled.  I had quick reflexes (easier at 300rpm!) and was able to stop it in 
order not to break the tap or drag the part out of the collet or both.  I then 
backed the tap out by hand.  I solved immediate problem by “peck-tapping”.  I 
tap to final depth by stepping down 1/8” at a time.  This seems to work fine, I 
have a spindle encoder of course, and so spindle and movement are coordinated 
in order to to multiple entries on the exactly the same start point.   Nice 
thing about pecking is that I can clear the chips off the tap and spray in some 
lubricant between each pass.  Is there anything “wrong” with peck tapping?

However, I often see videos of machining centers just spinning way a high speed 
tapping like it’s no big deal.  Should I be tapping at much higher spindle 
speed in order to have more torque?  Will the spindle be able to stop and 
reverse at those speeds to pull it off?  I have aggressive start/stop settings 
on the VFD that controls the spindle, the encoder is 1024ppr quadrature….

IPM = RPM X pitch(mm) X 0.03937 so at 2000rpm it would be moving at 118 IPM, 
within it’s capability.  Or at 1500rpm it would be 89 IPM.   I would like to 
not break my $30 M12 tap so have been afraid to just go for it, but wondering 
what a real machinist would do? I am not one. :-)

-Tom


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 January 2016 10:58:13 tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:

> I need some advice rigid tapping on an Emco120p lathe.  The lathe has
> a 3.5HP motor that can go from 50-3000rpm.  It can travel at about 120
> ipm (maybe 150 ipm, but haven’t  verified it’s max yet).  Spindle
> torque drops off as I go down in lower rpm range, of course.  I have
> done some tapping of aluminum (mostly) and not very deep, say 0.5” or
> less, and I usually do that at about 300 rpm successfully.  However, I
> am now threading some brass to about 0.75” deep with a substantial M12
> 1.5 tap (6H, semi-bottoming, spiral flute) and have some problems. I
> am using a 10.5mm initial hole in the part.  When I ran my first
> attempt at 300 rpm the tap went in, perhaps to full depth, and then
> stalled.  I had quick reflexes (easier at 300rpm!) and was able to
> stop it in order not to break the tap or drag the part out of the
> collet or both.  I then backed the tap out by hand.  I solved
> immediate problem by “peck-tapping”.  I tap to final depth by stepping
> down 1/8” at a time.  This seems to work fine, I have a spindle
> encoder of course, and so spindle and movement are coordinated in
> order to to multiple entries on the exactly the same start point.  
> Nice thing about pecking is that I can clear the chips off the tap and
> spray in some lubricant between each pass.  Is there anything “wrong”
> with peck tapping?
>
Nope, done it quite a few times myself, usually at about 1/4 turn pecks 
because I can't hold a tap any tighter with my rube goldberg tap 
carrier. Even if it dulls the tap faster, its cheaper than starting all 
over to make the part. And I usually blow it clean & glop on some more 
buttercutt while its backed out of the hole too. But I think I may have 
solved the tap slippage, I stumbled over an Irwin (spit, pissy taps IMO) 
metric tap kit at Lowes last night, that had a small tap handle, which 
if I can drive the handle out of it, and turn its butt end to fit my 
boring bar holder, will hold a tap better than the drill chuck on a rod 
stuck in the boring bar will do.

Or stuck in one of those chinese er32 adapters, fixes the same problem on 
the G0704.  One of the things I'll check today while being buried in 
snow as I am trying to make a camera mount screwed to the bottom face of 
my home-made spindle lock.

Change of subject:

Neither of the 3 pieces for that high speed spindle have arrived yet, 
despite being here in the states. I believe that 80mm diameter will be a 
problem.

Unless I can cobble up a quick change to replace the existing spindle 
cartridge with it, but that won't dis-mount the existing motor, getting 
rid of its weight. I also have visions of pinning the existing head so I 
could slap it back on without an hour spent tramming it, and ordering 
another head casting as a part, which would make changing it a 4 
nuts/washers and a small hoist job.

Endless possibility's occupy my "downtime" ... :)

> However, I often see videos of machining centers just spinning way a
> high speed tapping like it’s no big deal.  Should I be tapping at much
> higher spindle speed in order to have more torque?  Will the spindle
> be able to stop and reverse at those speeds to pull it off?  I have
> aggressive start/stop settings on the VFD that controls the spindle,
> the encoder is 1024ppr quadrature….
>
> IPM = RPM X pitch(mm) X 0.03937 so at 2000rpm it would be moving at
> 118 IPM, within it’s capability.  Or at 1500rpm it would be 89 IPM.  
> I would like to not break my $30 M12 tap so have been afraid to just
> go for it, but wondering what a real machinist would do? I am not one.
> :-)
>
> -Tom
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[tom-emc]

This is the tap I am using: 
http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that seems 
fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, so I am 
very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using OSG's tap they recommend 
23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed of 400 RPM.  I can try that (I 
used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going to have the same (torque) issue I had 
before.  And perhaps the answer is I just don’t have enough torque at low 
spindle speeds to do it in one pass…

-Tom

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
> 
> What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps from 
> OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill for each 
> job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal taps broke 
> off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so the hole size 
> was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use 75% thread depth 
> which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for deeper depths you need a 
> bigger hole.
> 
> JT


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[tom-emc]

Hey Drew,

I ended up mounting it exactly like the old encoder, in the same cylindrical 
housing.  I only had to machine a new mount for the encoder housing because the 
disc was smaller diameter so the mount had to raise the encoder a bit compared 
to the older one.  I attached the encoder wheel to the same spindle mount as 
the old one using the same hardware.  I thought I took pictures of it but I 
can’t seem to locate them.  I also thought I had a dxf and gcode for the mount 
that I made but am having trouble locating that as well.  I will see what I can 
find...

-Tom


> On Jan 22, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Drew Rogge  wrote:
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> How did you end up mounting the new encoder to your EMCO? I'd like to do the 
> same thing to mine.
> 
> Drew
> 
> On 1/22/16 7:58 AM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
>> 
>> However, I often see videos of machining centers just spinning way a high 
>> speed tapping like it’s no big deal.  Should I be tapping at much higher 
>> spindle speed in order to have more torque?  Will the spindle be able to 
>> stop and reverse at those speeds to pull it off?  I have aggressive 
>> start/stop settings on the VFD that controls the spindle, the encoder is 
>> 1024ppr quadrature….
>> 
>> 
>> -Tom
>> 
>> 
>> --
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> d...@dasrogges.com
> 
> Phone: 8934OOO629OO4829631OOO
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[tom-emc]

We ordered the 1024ppr encoder (EM1-2-1024-I): 
http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/EM1#description
with this disk: 
http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/rotary/disks/DISK-2
and this cable: 
http://www.usdigital.com/products/cables-connectors/cables/5-pin/CA-C5-SH-NC

Attached is a link to the only (stp) file I could find of the encoder mount.  I 
tapped the small holes in this bracket by hand with a 4-40 tap (don’t tell 
anyone I used SAE screws on a metric only machine!) to mount the encoder to it. 
 The countersunk holes (using an M4 screw I believe) held this mount to the 
backplate of the encoder housing with the same screws that held the EMCO 
encoder to it..  I then adjusted the encoder wheel to line up in the slot as it 
should using the stock Emco disk mounting hardware which is adjustable.  I 
can’t be sure that I didn’t modify the dimensions of this drawing for the final 
part but I don’t recall doing that.  I usually have my gcode or job file but I 
can’t seem to find them.  I was only making one so I may have failed to save it…

bgp.nu:/~tom/pub/EMCO120P-NewEncoderBrakt.stp

-Tom

> On Jan 22, 2016, at 4:50 PM, Drew Rogge  wrote:
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> How did you end up mounting the new encoder to your EMCO? I'd like to do the 
> same thing to mine.
> 
> Drew
> 
> On 1/22/16 7:58 AM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
>> 
>> However, I often see videos of machining centers just spinning way a high 
>> speed tapping like it’s no big deal.  Should I be tapping at much higher 
>> spindle speed in order to have more torque?  Will the spindle be able to 
>> stop and reverse at those speeds to pull it off?  I have aggressive 
>> start/stop settings on the VFD that controls the spindle, the encoder is 
>> 1024ppr quadrature….
>> 
>> 
>> -Tom
>> 
>> 
>> --
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> d...@dasrogges.com
> 
> Phone: 8934OOO629OO4829631OOO
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[tom-emc]

On Jan 22, 2016, at 9:31 PM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> 
> bgp.nu:/~tom/pub/EMCO120P-NewEncoderBrakt.stp

Oops, my link had a typo in it.  The correct link is:
http://bgp.nu/~tom/pub/EMCO120P-NewEncoderBrakt.stp

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 22 January 2016 17:52:56 andy pugh wrote:

> On 22 January 2016 at 21:33, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Perhaps Andy might recall that URL?
>
> It is only likely to have been:
>
> http://www.chronos.ltd.uk

Nope.

> or
>
> http://www.rdgtools.co.uk

This rang bells but the only "suitcased" kit they are showing now is 
almost 2x as big, and the internal there uses a std sit down chip 
whereas the kit I have uses a stand up chip secured on the end face of 
it.  Just the right size for somebody with a wildcat 7x12 lathe like 
mine is by now.

Minumum starter hole for my kit is about a small 3/8" if you want G76 to 
have some backup room when retracing back out. The kit shown probably 
needs at least a 9/16" starter hole & even that might crowd it pretty 
bad to do the deeper, coarser USS thread.

> or possibly
>
> http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk
>
Nope.

> with a (very) outside bet on
>
> http://www.amadeal.co.uk

I wouldn't put any money on that horse.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping videos

[Igor Chudov]

My videos of rigid tapping.

The video shown is my first test of rigid tapping on real material. It
worked like a charm. I picked 10/32 because it is such an easy
thread.

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/32-Spindle-Encoder/


Apparently, I can tap 15 holes in about one minute.
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Re: [Emc-users] rigid tapping

[Rudy du Preez]

I have just completed the conversion of my HERMLE 801 to EMC2. Rigid tapping
was the last function to implement. From my experience you need an encoder
coupled to the spindle. I used a simple but reliable encoder made by CUI
(AMT102, www.cui.com). With the A, B and Index pulses EMC knows the
direction as well as the RPM of the spindle. You need to be able to reverse
the spindle motor. The M3 and M4 commands should work and be able to change
the motor direction. The G33.1 code for rigid tapping makes use of all these
inputs and does a perfect job. The spindle-at-speed input to EMC is also
important. If the speed is not near the commanded speed EMC will wait until
it is before it actually starts tapping. On my machine I have to turn a
wheel to adjust the speeds manually. Make sure the traj-thread is set to
servo-thread, otherwise EMC struggles to follow the spindle.

Hope this helps.
Rudy


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Re: [Emc-users] rigid tapping

[Anders Wallin]

Here's our simple solution for the spindle encoder:
http://www.anderswallin.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/encoder.jpg

It's a US-digital encoder which is mounted to a U-shaped bracket which
is bolted to the fan-grill on the back of the AC-induction spindle
motor. There was a thread on the end of the motor axis, so we extended
the axis with a piece of threaded rod. The axis coupler is a piece of
plastic tubing.
We use an Omron Varispeed V7 VFD which does a decent job of keeping up
the torque even at low RPM. With a 1.5kW spindle motor which is 1:1
coupled to the spindle it is possible to rigid-tap M2 through M6 holes
in aluminium at 500 RPM. I would not try much bigger taps or tapping
in steel with this small machine.

Anders

 I have just completed the conversion of my HERMLE 801 to EMC2. Rigid tapping
 was the last function to implement. From my experience you need an encoder
 coupled to the spindle. I used a simple but reliable encoder made by CUI
 (AMT102, www.cui.com).

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