subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Tantric Sexual Practices \(was Urdhva\-retas\?\)"

on 6/5/06 2:38 PM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 In short, I see no evidence to support your Maharishi-as-tantric
 adept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneous
 transmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time.
 
 Certainly not an Occam's razor kinda idea.
 
 Perhaps Rick could pass on this idea to some of the women he had
 tantric sex with and you could get their response?

I'm not in regular communication with any of them, and the one I spoke with
the most (Jennifer) just said that she really hasn't told her story yet.
Apparently she's in no hurry to do so. So regarding the kinds of details
you've been discussing here, I only have the Sexy Sadie material to go on
(i.e., Ned Wynn paraphrasing Jennifer as saying he was a shitty lover,
etc.)




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

on 6/5/06 3:43 PM, new_morning_blank_slate at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I think he did get insights from listening to pundits, but it ended
 up coming out as the Great rishi hath spoken this revealed
 material. 
 
 You personally witnessed this? I never did. Rick, did you?
 
In my experience, whether he was meeting with pundits or scientists, he
didn't pretend to know everything they knew. He interacted with them so as
to draw out their knowledge, and then attempted to place the foundation of
consciousness under it.

 If Jennifer (the only one rick has somewhat ready access to, AFAIK,
 can state without qualification, that in her experience there were i)
 absolutely no outer indications of tantra, ii) she is qualified to
 know such, and iii) she was so in-tuned with M's mind and inner
 states/physiology that she KNOWS no tantric intent, or tantric type
 flows of energy was ever occurring, then great. We would have a pretty
 definitive answer from Jennifer's experience. Then onto Linda and all
 and we may have pretty well indicated the hypotheses (#1 and #2) are
 false. Until then, well, they not been indicated as false.

We only had a couple of conversations and didn't discuss these points.
Basically, the whole experience left her with a pretty negative impression.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

on 6/5/06 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 I was making a joke via an indisputable tain of logic:  Everything is
 in Brahman, thus tantra is in Brahman. And since Brahman is at the
 core of part of Shankaracharian and Advaita Vedanta traditions,
 therefore tantra must be part Shankaracharian tradition Advaita
 Vedanta traditions. :)

And my that logic so must methamphetamine manufacture.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





on 6/6/06 7:26 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

But now we do have some insight into the technical aspects I was referring to. Since we now have the input from Rick that M. could not retain his bindu--aka his retas (semen)--he was clearly (by definition of the practice of urdhva-retas) not performing that practice.

I was not the source of that information. Ned Wynn was, from his discussions with Jennifer and possibly Judith.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





on 6/10/06 10:15 PM, Rick Archer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

on 6/5/06 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate at [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:no_reply%40yahoogroups.com 
wrote:

 I was making a joke via an indisputable tain of logic: Everything is
 in Brahman, thus tantra is in Brahman. And since Brahman is at the
 core of part of Shankaracharian and Advaita Vedanta traditions,
 therefore tantra must be part Shankaracharian tradition Advaita
 Vedanta traditions. :)

And my that logic so must methamphetamine manufacture.

Typo. Meant by that logic

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

2006-06-06 Thread TurquoiseB

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  Well, the funny thing was, he would try to change
  his writing style and tone so he'd appear to be a
  different person.  Maybe he got the idea from Barry,
  who used to do the same back in the day.  But neither
  of them were very good at it, and they couldn't
  sustain the new persona for very long.
 
 Only Judy could interpret changing ISPs and 
 thus one's screen name as an attempt to fool 
 her.  Paranoia is entertaining. :-)

Just for the fun of it, let's put Ms. I'm Honest
And You're Not to the test here. Go back and find
all of the userids you think I've used on a.m.t.
or here and post them. I'll tell you how many of
them were really me and how many of them were 
projections of your own paranoia.

Either that, or retract the slam above. Put up
or shut up.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

2006-06-06 Thread peterklutz

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 peterklutz wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
  
 [snip]
  
   [..] I'm a practicing tantrik and you don't know what the fuck
   you are talking about. 
 
 Nice pun :-)
 
   Tantra is not about sex.  You do tantra a disservice just as
   Rajneesh did and many westerners who don't understand
   what tantra really is.  Go find a real tantrik guru and study with
   him a few years and then we'll have a serious discussion about
   tantra.
 
 Let me see if I got this right, you are addressing a male and direct
 him to another male for instruction in tantric sexual practices (the
 subject of this thread).
 
 The defense rests.. :-)
 
 
   
 
 Wrong, you must've missed the first sentence in the paragraph of mine 
 you just quoted above.  

[snip]

No, I just read the subject header before replying: Tantric Sexual
Practices

Did you?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

On Jun 5, 2006, at 9:49 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:Of course it could have happened. But he also could have in depth sexual imformation from the extraterrtrials in that UFO in Switzerland. At least some people witnessed that...hahahaha. Yea. Ask Casey Coleman and Rick Stanely who people on FFLSWORE they had heard these guys say they witnessed UFOs with M. Theyeach responded on FFL and basically said, "What crap". So that you see no evidence to support your "Maharishi-as-tantric adept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneous transmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time" most odd characterization is no surprise. Its a limited and distorted, strawmanish representation of what has been said, its mind-boggling that its coming from you. Who I take as a open, open-inquiry, rational, non-dogmatic, balanced kind of guy. Well let's look at what you've presented and see if it jives with the above statement. Did you not propose he was a tantric adept No! I said its a resonable hypothesis he pick up some knowledge ofsexual tantra in 30+ years in India, around yogis, sadhus, pudnits andtantrics. And just being in indian culture. And maybe using ritam."mmm, tantra, what is this? ahhh I see." possibly having tantric sex with shakti-laden female Definately had sex with female staff. I hypothesize it could haveinvolved some tantric experimentation. What point is unclear? disciples?Never. He never has had a female disciple to my knowldege. Rindi maybe. Did you not propose he could have received a mind-to-mind transmission of tantric teaching from SBS?Sure, that might have been one many possibilities that he picked upsome basic knowledge of tantra. Including the small subset involvingsex. A low probability one. But I "threw" in the trasmissionpossibility due to your general discussions of it. So if itsabsolutely not a possiblity,then letstake it off the table. So thenwe are left with the possibilities that he picked up some knowledge ofsexual tantra in 30+ years in India, by being around yogis, sadhus,pudnits and tantrics. And just being in indian culture. Jeez, Ipicked up some basic knowledge of it in my first month coursein 1968.Hardly as deep a crowd as M mingled with in 30years. Or, possibly he he picked up some basic tantric sexual knowledgedirectly like Shankara in prep for with Mishra and his wife. Did you not propose he could have gotten this from tantric adepts he met Sure. Its possible that he picked up basic sexual tantric knowlegefrom any number of yogis saints and sadhus in his time before, duringand after SBS. See abovewith in secret?"in secret" ??? Are you really saying "Maharishi-as-tantricadept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneoustransmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time" is a fairreprestation of the above Q and A. If so, WOW!!! I am flabergasted.Shocked. Way disappointed.It's a synopsis of your presentation, no mine!"Maharishi-as-tantric adept" -- never said "was adept" "enlightening his female students" -- never said enlightening "thru sex" -- yes its clear he had sex"from the spontaneous transmission he received from SBSonce-upon-a-time" -- oneof many possible avenues to get tantricknowledge. An obscure and low probability on IMO. Ritam, discussionwith sadhus,yogis and tantrics in 30 years in india, Indian culture,books, pundits, are all possible means that he may have gotten someworking knowldge of sexual tantra. Why is that such an odd possibilityin your mind.It's not odd, it just doesn't wash, sorry (for the numerous reasons I've given already). The relevant question is do you have any evidence of substance that disproves or discounts the possibility of #1 and #2 above. Its NOT saying #1 and #2 are true, but simply acknowledging that they are hypotheses that cannot be concluseively disproven (at this point). Above and beyond what I've already conveyed, Which provides nothing regarding the disproving of the possibility,the hypotheses of #1 and #2 above. Do your statements discount them? Not on my book. But thanks for yourinput.However I think you should consider the idea of "transgressive practices" and violation of natural law.I will. I could better if I knew what they meant.The use of meat and wine. If you've never had formal initiation into any of the inner, outer or secret tantras however, you may want to consider some of the unique elements of tantric initiation--esp. those into a sexual tantra--Well, I think even you could agree that if I never had formalinitiation into such, it would be hard for me to "consider some ofthe unique elements of tantric initiation". But thanks for implying my ritam is THAT strong. That's was not what I was implying. that you might not be aware of. Again, exactly how does one consider things they are not aware of?Gain some experience in the subject at hand?I have read Svobodas trilogy. Read some other things. Tantra is nottotaly foreign to me. Hardly makes me

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

On Jun 6, 2006, at 1:27 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@... wrote: On Jun 5, 2006, at 9:47 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:[...] The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes, the TM mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense. Why do you say they are tantric in origin? Because they all occur in tantras and aren't found at all in the Vedas. Hmmm... When MMY refers to the "vedic," he's talking about all the "vedic literature" as he defines it PLUS any techniques he associates with that liteature, such as dyhan. http://ff.mum.edu/vedicreserve/ That a list of mantras doesn't appear in the Veda explicitly isn't any more relevant than the fact that the 100,000+ variations of the yoga asanas don't get explicit mention either --or are you saying that only asanas that are described/mentioned explicitly in the Vedas are genuine vedic asanas? Yoga asanas come from the Nath tantric siddhas. They ain't Vedic either dude.Er, I take it that Patanjali's Yoga Sutras aren't vedic either?Are you seriously saying you believe they are?
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  Well, the funny thing was, he would try to change
  his writing style and tone so he'd appear to be a
  different person.  Maybe he got the idea from Barry,
  who used to do the same back in the day.  But neither
  of them were very good at it, and they couldn't
  sustain the new persona for very long.
 
 Only Judy could interpret changing ISPs and 
 thus one's screen name as an attempt to fool 
 her.  Paranoia is entertaining. :-)

Ah, no, in fact there were whole new personalities
to go with the new IPSs and screen names in an
attempt to fool the entire alt.m.t newsgroup.  Not
sure why Barry doesn't want to admit it, but I'll be
happy to go dig up some references if anyone is
interested.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

On Jun 5, 2006, at 10:19 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote: otherwise there is utter imbalance in the equation. So Muktanada's 16 yr olds were tantra adepts? Come on!!! Again, an important fine point. Muktananda claimed to be doing yoni- puja on these women AND practicing urdhva-retas on these kids. And first hand accounts tend to bear this out, that is they were congruent with someone who was practicing vajroli. Interestingly this practice is also considered helpful in being able to perform shaktipat, so there is a practical connection there (which of course also makes it much more difficult for these ladies to process their trauma).And so your points about muktananda do possibly not apply to M?As I indicated earlier, it would depend on more technical factors whether that was true or not.But now we do have some insight into the technical aspects I was referring to. Since we now have the input from Rick that M. could not retain his bindu--aka his retas (semen)--he was clearly (by definition of the practice of urdhva-retas) not performing that practice. In other words it was most likely just plain ole Sexual Incest.One wonders if in his hidden past he was raised Catholic?Actually knowing this simple fact, that M. appears to NOT have had control of his own bindu (his ejaculation) is really all that we needed to know to conclude this discussion.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
  
   Well, the funny thing was, he would try to change
   his writing style and tone so he'd appear to be a
   different person.  Maybe he got the idea from Barry,
   who used to do the same back in the day.  But neither
   of them were very good at it, and they couldn't
   sustain the new persona for very long.
  
  Only Judy could interpret changing ISPs and 
  thus one's screen name as an attempt to fool 
  her.  Paranoia is entertaining. :-)
 
 Ah, no, in fact there were whole new personalities
 to go with the new IPSs

That would be ISPs...


 and screen names in an
 attempt to fool the entire alt.m.t newsgroup.  Not
 sure why Barry doesn't want to admit it, but I'll be
 happy to go dig up some references if anyone is
 interested.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
  
   Well, the funny thing was, he would try to change
   his writing style and tone so he'd appear to be a
   different person.  Maybe he got the idea from Barry,
   who used to do the same back in the day.  But neither
   of them were very good at it, and they couldn't
   sustain the new persona for very long.
  
  Only Judy could interpret changing ISPs and 
  thus one's screen name as an attempt to fool 
  her.  Paranoia is entertaining. :-)
 
 Just for the fun of it, let's put Ms. I'm Honest
 And You're Not to the test here. Go back and find
 all of the userids you think I've used on a.m.t.
 or here and post them. I'll tell you how many of
 them were really me and how many of them were 
 projections of your own paranoia.

Sure you will, Barry.  After all, your word is your
bond, right?  How could anybody here not have
complete faith in your integrity?



 
 Either that, or retract the slam above. Put up
 or shut up.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
   
Well, the funny thing was, he would try to change
his writing style and tone so he'd appear to be a
different person.  Maybe he got the idea from Barry,
who used to do the same back in the day.  But neither
of them were very good at it, and they couldn't
sustain the new persona for very long.
   
   Only Judy could interpret changing ISPs and 
   thus one's screen name as an attempt to fool 
   her.  Paranoia is entertaining. :-)
  
  Just for the fun of it, let's put Ms. I'm Honest
  And You're Not to the test here. Go back and find
  all of the userids you think I've used on a.m.t.
  or here and post them. I'll tell you how many of
  them were really me and how many of them were 
  projections of your own paranoia.
 
 Sure you will, Barry.  After all, your word is your
 bond, right?  How could anybody here not have
 complete faith in your integrity?
 
  Either that, or retract the slam above. Put up
  or shut up.

Note, by the way, that the slam Barry refers to
here is what I said about his not being very
good at hiding his real identity.  I've hurt his
writerly pride, I'm afraid.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  Well, the funny thing was, he would try to change
  his writing style and tone so he'd appear to be a
  different person.  Maybe he got the idea from Barry,
  who used to do the same back in the day.  But neither
  of them were very good at it, and they couldn't
  sustain the new persona for very long.
 
 Only Judy could interpret changing ISPs and 
 thus one's screen name as an attempt to fool 
 her.  Paranoia is entertaining. :-)

I just remembered one specific instance in which in
Barry's initial post to alt.m.t under a new screen
name, he reproduced one of his own older posts under
a different name--a satirical piece, as I recall--
saying he didn't know who had posted it originally,
but that he thought it was very funny and highly
germane to whatever was going on in the newsgroup at
the time.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

2006-06-06 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 6, 2006, at 1:27 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  
   On Jun 5, 2006, at 9:47 PM, sparaig wrote:
  
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:


 On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote:

  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  [...]
   The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes,
the TM
   mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense.
 
  Why do you say they are tantric in origin?

 Because they all occur in tantras and aren't found at all in the
Vedas.

   
Hmmm... When MMY refers to the vedic, he's talking about all the
vedic literature as he
defines it PLUS any techniques he associates with that liteature,
such as dyhan.
   
http://ff.mum.edu/vedicreserve/
   
That a list of mantras doesn't appear in the Veda explicitly isn't
any more relevant than
the fact that the 100,000+ variations of the yoga asanas don't get
explicit mention either
--or are you saying that only asanas that are described/mentioned
explicitly in the Vedas
are genuine vedic asanas?
  
   Yoga asanas come from the Nath tantric siddhas. They ain't Vedic
   either dude.
  
 
  Er, I take it that Patanjali's Yoga Sutras aren't vedic either?
 
 Are you seriously saying you believe they are?


The Yoga Sutras are a compilation of practices from what, the 2nd century or 
thereabouts?

Technically, they're not vedic because they were written too late, but since 
they're a 
compilation of what was already being practiced, it seems likely that the 
practices 
described were around during the Vedic era. In fact, Artwork depicting yoga 
asanas 
predate the time period assigned to the Vedic age, so obviously this is the 
case...








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

2006-06-06 Thread Bhairitu

peterklutz wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

peterklutz wrote:



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
  

[snip]
  

[..] I'm a practicing tantrik and you don't know what the fuck
you are talking about. 


Nice pun :-)

  

Tantra is not about sex.  You do tantra a disservice just as
Rajneesh did and many westerners who don't understand
what tantra really is.  Go find a real tantrik guru and study with
him a few years and then we'll have a serious discussion about
tantra.


Let me see if I got this right, you are addressing a male and direct
him to another male for instruction in tantric sexual practices (the
subject of this thread).

The defense rests.. :-)


 

  

Wrong, you must've missed the first sentence in the paragraph of mine 
you just quoted above.  



[snip]

No, I just read the subject header before replying: Tantric Sexual
Practices

Did you?

I certainly did.  Why else as a tantrik would I have responded to such a 
topic.  It should have read pseudo-tantric sexual practices.

Oh well as we see the topic has degenerated into yet another writer's 
spat. :)




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)



On Jun 5, 2006, at 10:34 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:  in one of his netcarnations, but there were others as well.  He's turned up a couple of times recently on alt.m.t, I  believe, with yet another name.Man, as bad as that asshole akasha :)Whew you got that rite, what a bitch!But she did have a real nice Judy Garland vinyl collection.
__._,_.___





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, peterklutz [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote:
 
 [snip]
 
  [..] I'm a practicing tantrik and you don't know what the fuck 
  you are talking about. 
 
 Nice pun :-)
 
  Tantra is not about sex. You do tantra a disservice just as 
  Rajneesh did and many westerners who don't understand 
  what tantra really is. Go find a real tantrik guru and study 
  with him a few years and then we'll have a serious discussion 
  about tantra.
 
 Let me see if I got this right, you are addressing a male and 
 direct him to another male for instruction in tantric sexual 
 practices (the subject of this thread).
 
 The defense rests.. :-)

Why am I visualizing Beavis and Butthead?

Heh heh heh...he said 'sex'...heh heh heh.












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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:15 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

 So what is yours (and Bhairitu's) take on MMY and other teachers
 reported sexual encounters, with regards to tantra? Do you feel there
 was some reasonable probability, or not, that there was some tantric
 practice type use of sexual energy involved?


In M's case there is no indication that there was any tantric 
practice involved nor that M. even practices such methods. Indeed his 
emphasis has always been on Veda rather than tantra. So I'd give it 
zero probablility in this case.

Muktananda is something entirely different--he appears to have 
mastered Vajroli or some similar technique. That's not to justify the 
using of young women as unwitting participants in your sexual 
practice as a good thing, but merely to point out what he was 
probably involved in. He most likely needed these methods to be able 
to continue iving shaktipat to groups of people (something rather 
untraditional in and of itself).

Swami Rama, although a great adept in Inner Tantra, appears to not 
have been using it for practice either, but for satisfaction, control 
and release.

Kalu Rinpoche does appear to have actually chosen a mudra, a sexual 
consort, but the women he chose seems to have confused that with a 
normal romantic relationship (it is not). It was to be the 
culmination of his sadhana.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:10 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:

 I always felt that a Western description of the essence
 of tantra can be found in the Odyssey. Odysseus is
 sailing past the island of the sirens, of whom he has
 been warned. Sailors who hear their song become so
 captured by it that they drive their ships onto the
 rocks in pursuit of it and drown. So he has his crew
 stuff their ears with wax so that they can sail safely
 past, while he leaves his ears open and has himself
 tied to the mast so that he can hear it and exper-
 ience their song for himself.

 Whatever the particular practices of a particular
 formalized tradition of Tantra, its essence IMO has
 to do with exploring the polarities between energies,
 and learning how to manipulate those energies, for
 one's own good and that of others. Sex is just one
 tiny subset of polarized energies, having no more
 importance than any other.


The most remarkable western equivalents I have seen are in western 
alchemical texts and Kabbalistic texts which contain some sexual 
practices.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:15 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
  So what is yours (and Bhairitu's) take on MMY and other teachers
  reported sexual encounters, with regards to tantra? Do you feel there
  was some reasonable probability, or not, that there was some tantric
  practice type use of sexual energy involved?
 
 
 In M's case there is no indication that there was any tantric 
 practice involved 

and were there indications there were not? I am getting at, how much
does anyone but the girls know about what happened behind closed door.
And (this is not an apologetic comment, rather exploratory) could M
have been doing stuff the girls were not aware of? That is, tantra
from his side, regular sex from theirs?

 nor that M. even practices such methods. Indeed his 
 emphasis has always been on Veda rather than tantra. So I'd give it 
 zero probablility in this case.

But I thought you have been saying a lot of his methods are tantric,
not vedic, regardless of what he calls them. And aren't there
indications that SBS practiced things tantric? Is Sri Vidyha tantric?
Can a student get it (things tantric) via transmission? Before or
after the master drops his mortal coil? Did Tat Walla Baba practice
tantra? M was close to him. 

 
 Muktananda is something entirely different--he appears to have 
 mastered Vajroli or some similar technique. That's not to justify the 
 using of young women as unwitting participants in your sexual 
 practice as a good thing, but merely to point out what he was 
 probably involved in. He most likely needed these methods to be able 
 to continue iving shaktipat to groups of people (something rather 
 untraditional in and of itself).
 
 Swami Rama, although a great adept in Inner Tantra, appears to not 
 have been using it for practice either, but for satisfaction, control 
 and release.

appears is an interesting word. Appears to whom? (Same questions as
for M. above.) Also, a tantric may engage in sex to detatch
him/herself from it, to condition identifications to diety and not
body. Assuming we had videos, would the latter be apparent and not sex
for for satisfaction, control and release? And who watched? That is,
to whom was his activity in bed manifest?

 
 Kalu Rinpoche does appear to have actually chosen a mudra, a sexual 
 consort, but the women he chose seems to have confused that with a 
 normal romantic relationship (it is not). It was to be the 
 culmination of his sadhana.

Appears again. Could all that simply be a front for raw sensual sex?

If you saw MDG OR (NOT AND) Bhairu having sex (I am just training your
mind to not be conditioned to environment, thoughts, like the cemetary
thing, etc. :)) , would you assume either is engaged in raw sensual
sex with their female partners -- with a tantric veneer for
appearances? Or, the opposite, that is engaged in a deep sadhana? That
is, do appaearances necessarily have much to do with the inner and
underlying reality?

I suppose you could pull the one knows the other defense -- popular
here at late. That is, a trantric master knows another tantric master
so its obvious if you 'KNOW'. But I was hoping for answers more
substantive.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:10 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
 
  I always felt that a Western description of the essence
  of tantra can be found in the Odyssey. Odysseus is
  sailing past the island of the sirens, of whom he has
  been warned. Sailors who hear their song become so
  captured by it that they drive their ships onto the
  rocks in pursuit of it and drown. So he has his crew
  stuff their ears with wax so that they can sail safely
  past, while he leaves his ears open and has himself
  tied to the mast so that he can hear it and exper-
  ience their song for himself.
 
  Whatever the particular practices of a particular
  formalized tradition of Tantra, its essence IMO has
  to do with exploring the polarities between energies,
  and learning how to manipulate those energies, for
  one's own good and that of others. Sex is just one
  tiny subset of polarized energies, having no more
  importance than any other.
 
 
 The most remarkable western equivalents I have seen are in western 
 alchemical texts and Kabbalistic texts which contain some sexual 
 practices.


Interesting that Middle Eastern and Indo-European practices are referred to as Western.










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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





On Jun 5, 2006, at 11:14 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:15 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
   So what is yours (and Bhairitu's) take on MMY and other teachers
   reported sexual encounters, with regards to tantra? Do you feel 
 there
   was some reasonable probability, or not, that there was some 
 tantric
   practice type use of sexual energy involved?
 
 
  In M's case there is no indication that there was any tantric
  practice involved

 and were there indications there were not? I am getting at, how much
 does anyone but the girls know about what happened behind closed door.
 And (this is not an apologetic comment, rather exploratory) could M
 have been doing stuff the girls were not aware of? That is, tantra
 from his side, regular sex from theirs?

Based on what I've heard he said (i.e. his dismissive attitude 
towards tantra) I would doubt it. Of course it is possible he was 
practicing tantra, but IMO, highly improbable.


  nor that M. even practices such methods. Indeed his
  emphasis has always been on Veda rather than tantra. So I'd give it
  zero probablility in this case.

 But I thought you have been saying a lot of his methods are tantric,
 not vedic, regardless of what he calls them.

The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes, the TM 
mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense.

 And aren't there
 indications that SBS practiced things tantric?

Indeed he did. I've received practice in SBS's line of transmission, 
however none of those practices involved sex.

 Is Sri Vidyha tantric?

Yes, highest yoga tantra.

 Can a student get it (things tantric) via transmission?

Well, it depends what you mean by *transmission*. In some lineages 
you always receive a transmission before you practice, that's your 
initiation and permission to do the practice.

 Before or
 after the master drops his mortal coil? Did Tat Walla Baba practice
 tantra? M was close to him.

Presumably yoga, no?

I do know that M. has received tantric transmission--but these were 
essentially yoga-tantra (not Kaula or vama-marga practices, i.e. 
sexual practices).


 
  Muktananda is something entirely different--he appears to have
  mastered Vajroli or some similar technique. That's not to justify 
 the
  using of young women as unwitting participants in your sexual
  practice as a good thing, but merely to point out what he was
  probably involved in. He most likely needed these methods to be able
  to continue iving shaktipat to groups of people (something rather
  untraditional in and of itself).
 
  Swami Rama, although a great adept in Inner Tantra, appears to not
  have been using it for practice either, but for satisfaction, 
 control
  and release.

 appears is an interesting word. Appears to whom? (Same questions as
 for M. above.)

To me and others who've commented.

 Also, a tantric may engage in sex to detatch
 him/herself from it, to condition identifications to diety and not
 body. Assuming we had videos, would the latter be apparent and not sex
 for for satisfaction, control and release? And who watched? That is,
 to whom was his activity in bed manifest?

It might of might not be apparent. Some of the methods used are quite 
strenuous and therefore more obvious to an innocent, ahem, 
bystander. Therefore it would depend on which method was being used 
(*if* a method was being used).



  Kalu Rinpoche does appear to have actually chosen a mudra, a 
 sexual
  consort, but the women he chose seems to have confused that with a
  normal romantic relationship (it is not). It was to be the
  culmination of his sadhana.

 Appears again. Could all that simply be a front for raw sensual sex?

In the case of Kalu Rinpoche, of course it *could* be, but it is also 
a logical conclusion of the path he was known to be on to practice 
with a karma-mudra (i.e. a sexual consort).


 If you saw MDG OR (NOT AND) Bhairu having sex (I am just training your
 mind to not be conditioned to environment, thoughts, like the cemetary
 thing, etc. :)) , would you assume either is engaged in raw sensual
 sex with their female partners -- with a tantric veneer for
 appearances? Or, the opposite, that is engaged in a deep sadhana? That
 is, do appaearances necessarily have much to do with the inner and
 underlying reality?

Not necessarily.


 I suppose you could pull the one knows the other defense -- popular
 here at late. That is, a trantric master knows another tantric master
 so its obvious if you 'KNOW'. But I was hoping for answers more
 substantive.

It is true that the style of moving energy would be apparent to one 
who had practiced it.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





On Jun 5, 2006, at 11:41 AM, sparaig wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:10 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
 
   I always felt that a Western description of the essence
   of tantra can be found in the Odyssey. Odysseus is
   sailing past the island of the sirens, of whom he has
   been warned. Sailors who hear their song become so
   captured by it that they drive their ships onto the
   rocks in pursuit of it and drown. So he has his crew
   stuff their ears with wax so that they can sail safely
   past, while he leaves his ears open and has himself
   tied to the mast so that he can hear it and exper-
   ience their song for himself.
  
   Whatever the particular practices of a particular
   formalized tradition of Tantra, its essence IMO has
   to do with exploring the polarities between energies,
   and learning how to manipulate those energies, for
   one's own good and that of others. Sex is just one
   tiny subset of polarized energies, having no more
   importance than any other.
 
 
  The most remarkable western equivalents I have seen are in western
  alchemical texts and Kabbalistic texts which contain some sexual
  practices.
 

 Interesting that Middle Eastern and Indo-European practices are 
 referred to as Western.


Not really. The texts I am referring to come from western Europe: 
England and Spain. What's more interesting to me is that these texts 
don't appear in the west until *after* the Islamic invasions of India...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 11:14 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
  Can a student get it (things tantric) via transmission?
 
 Well, it depends what you mean by *transmission*. In 
 some lineages you always receive a transmission before 
 you practice, that's your initiation and permission 
 to do the practice.

I got the impression nmbs was asking whether entire 
techniques and realizations can be transmitted to the
student 'mind to mind,' without the use of words. If 
that was the question, I'd have to answer that with 
a big Yes.












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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 11:14 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  
   On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:15 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
  
So what is yours (and Bhairitu's) take on MMY and other teachers
reported sexual encounters, with regards to tantra? Do you feel 
  there
was some reasonable probability, or not, that there was some 
  tantric
practice type use of sexual energy involved?
  
  
   In M's case there is no indication that there was any tantric
   practice involved
 
  and were there indications there were not? I am getting at, how much
  does anyone but the girls know about what happened behind closed door.
  And (this is not an apologetic comment, rather exploratory) could M
  have been doing stuff the girls were not aware of? That is, tantra
  from his side, regular sex from theirs?
 
 Based on what I've heard he said (i.e. his dismissive attitude 
 towards tantra)

What specifically have you heard? I never heard him mention tantra --
that I can recall.

But I did hear him make cautionary or dismissive comments on Jyotish,
ayurveda, etc, and later strongly endorse them. My sense is prior
negative statements were to wait until the time is right rather than
i) not know anything about them, or ii) beleiving they had no value.

 I would doubt it. Of course it is possible he was 
 practicing tantra, but IMO, highly improbable.

Again, why. Were you that close to him? Sitting around yagya pit under
the full mmoon, trading yogi stories?

He used to sing bajans in his bathtub. (per people attending to his
needs). Was that highly improbable to you given his outward teachings?
 

   nor that M. even practices such methods. Indeed his
   emphasis has always been on Veda rather than tantra. So I'd give it
   zero probablility in this case.

  But I thought you have been saying a lot of his methods are tantric,
  not vedic, regardless of what he calls them.
 
 The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes, the TM 
 mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense.

Yes, amd the word tantra does not exclude the sexual,even if its only
 a small part. So his REAL emphasis has NOT always been on Veda rather
than tantra. Why would you presume he only took on SOME partial
tantric knowledge and not the WHOLEness of it? If anything MMY goes
for the Wholeness.
 
  And aren't there
  indications that SBS practiced things tantric?
 
 Indeed he did. I've received practice in SBS's line of transmission, 
 however none of those practices involved sex.

Just because he didn't practice the sexual practices, being a life
celibate, that in no way indicates that he did not have knowledge of
such, and could not pass them on when appropriate. I have heard he --
being a world teacher taught those of all faiths (including muslims
and christians) giving them things that would help them in their
paths. EVEN though he did not practice such.
 
  Is Sri Vidyha tantric?
 
 Yes, highest yoga tantra.
 
  Can a student get it (things tantric) via transmission?
 
 Well, it depends what you mean by *transmission*. In some lineages 
 you always receive a transmission before you practice, that's your 
 initiation and permission to do the practice.

I mean even if you assume SBS did not much explicitly andverbally
share his tantric knowledge with MMY, could a disciple, later in an
awakened state, receive such knowledge bytransmission or simply
placing attention on their master? (I GET stuff by placing attention
on saints -- those currently in and out of mortal coil. So I know its
a valid means of insight.) 

  Before or
  after the master drops his mortal coil? Did Tat Walla Baba practice
  tantra? M was close to him.
 
 Presumably yoga, no?
 
 I do know that M. has received tantric transmission

How do you know this?

--but these were 
 essentially yoga-tantra (not Kaula or vama-marga practices, i.e. 
 sexual practices).

And how do you know of this exclusion?
 
 
  
   Muktananda is something entirely different--he appears to have
   mastered Vajroli or some similar technique. That's not to justify 
  the
   using of young women as unwitting participants in your sexual
   practice as a good thing, but merely to point out what he was
   probably involved in. He most likely needed these methods to be able
   to continue iving shaktipat to groups of people (something rather
   untraditional in and of itself).
  
   Swami Rama, although a great adept in Inner Tantra, appears to not
   have been using it for practice either, but for satisfaction, 
  control
   and release.



  appears is an interesting word. Appears to whom? (Same questions as
  for M. above.)
 
 To me and others who've commented.

So its just appearance. Appearances are always true? Appearances are
always pure SAT? 
 
  Also, a tantric may engage in sex to detatch
  him/herself from it, to condition

[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  On Jun 5, 2006, at 11:14 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
  
   Can a student get it (things tantric) via transmission?
  
  Well, it depends what you mean by *transmission*. In 
  some lineages you always receive a transmission before 
  you practice, that's your initiation and permission 
  to do the practice.
 
 I got the impression nmbs was asking whether entire 
 techniques and realizations can be transmitted to the
 student 'mind to mind,' without the use of words. If 
 that was the question, I'd have to answer that with 
 a big Yes.

Yes. That was what nmbs was asking. (I am pleased you received that
transmission clearly. :) )

And thus supporting, though in no way proving, the following train of
logic and possibilities:

1) did SBS practice (real) tantra? Apparently yes.

2) did MMY use or teach some tantric things (regardless of what he
called them)? Apparently yes.

3) Could SBS have known and even taught things (possibly including
tantric) he did not personally practice? Apparently yes.

4) Could SBS have taught MMY tantric things appropriate for
householders (his focus for MMY)? Possibly.

5) Could SBS or other teachers have taught MMY tantric things by
(passive or active) transmission? Possibly.

6) Could MMY have learned tantric things via Ritam, mandala, or some
other means of inner knowldge? Possibly.


7) Did MMY experiment and test lots of things? Emphatically yes.

8) Could MMY have sought to test some sexual tantric practices that he
picked up i) directly from a teacher, or, ii) via transmission, or
iii) from other yogis (tat walla babba,etc), or iv) from pundits
/scriptures? Possibly.

9) Could MMY have solely sought raw sensual pleasure from his
encounters? Possibly. (But doesn't fit his MO,IMO.)














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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   On Jun 5, 2006, at 11:14 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
   
Can a student get it (things tantric) via transmission?
   
   Well, it depends what you mean by *transmission*. In 
   some lineages you always receive a transmission before 
   you practice, that's your initiation and permission 
   to do the practice.
  
  I got the impression nmbs was asking whether entire 
  techniques and realizations can be transmitted to the
  student 'mind to mind,' without the use of words. If 
  that was the question, I'd have to answer that with 
  a big Yes.
 
 Yes. That was what nmbs was asking. (I am pleased you received 
 that transmission clearly. :) )
 
 And thus supporting, though in no way proving, the following 
 train of logic and possibilities:

I support none of the speculations below or your
assumed answsers to them. I dealt only with one
question. It does not relate to your followup
questions or to what you seem to want to do
with this information in any way.

 1) did SBS practice (real) tantra? Apparently yes.
 
 2) did MMY use or teach some tantric things (regardless of what he
 called them)? Apparently yes.
 
 3) Could SBS have known and even taught things (possibly including
 tantric) he did not personally practice? Apparently yes.
 
 4) Could SBS have taught MMY tantric things appropriate for
 householders (his focus for MMY)? Possibly.
 
 5) Could SBS or other teachers have taught MMY tantric things by
 (passive or active) transmission? Possibly.
 
 6) Could MMY have learned tantric things via Ritam, mandala, or 
 some other means of inner knowldge? Possibly.
 
 7) Did MMY experiment and test lots of things? Emphatically yes.
 
 8) Could MMY have sought to test some sexual tantric practices 
 that he
 picked up i) directly from a teacher, or, ii) via transmission, or
 iii) from other yogis (tat walla babba,etc), or iv) from pundits
 /scriptures? Possibly.
 
 9) Could MMY have solely sought raw sensual pleasure from his
 encounters? Possibly. (But doesn't fit his MO,IMO.)











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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:00 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Jun 5, 2006, at 11:14 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
   
On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:15 AM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
   
 So what is yours (and Bhairitu's) take on MMY and other 
 teachers
 reported sexual encounters, with regards to tantra? Do you 
 feel
   there
 was some reasonable probability, or not, that there was some
   tantric
 practice type use of sexual energy involved?
   
   
In M's case there is no indication that there was any tantric
practice involved
  
   and were there indications there were not? I am getting at, how 
 much
   does anyone but the girls know about what happened behind 
 closed door.
   And (this is not an apologetic comment, rather exploratory) 
 could M
   have been doing stuff the girls were not aware of? That is, tantra
   from his side, regular sex from theirs?
 
  Based on what I've heard he said (i.e. his dismissive attitude
  towards tantra)

 What specifically have you heard? I never heard him mention tantra --
 that I can recall.

A friend I know asked him directly about tantra, so I'm replying 
based on that response.

 But I did hear him make cautionary or dismissive comments on Jyotish,
 ayurveda, etc, and later strongly endorse them. My sense is prior
 negative statements were to wait until the time is right rather than
 i) not know anything about them, or ii) beleiving they had no value.

Anythings possible. Have you ever met any renunciates in the practice 
line of the Shankaracharya Order who practiced sexual tantra?


  I would doubt it. Of course it is possible he was
  practicing tantra, but IMO, highly improbable.

 Again, why. Were you that close to him? Sitting around yagya pit under
 the full mmoon, trading yogi stories?

No, I'm just commenting based on what I do know and his line of 
practice.


 He used to sing bajans in his bathtub. (per people attending to his
 needs). Was that highly improbable to you given his outward 
 teachings?


nor that M. even practices such methods. Indeed his
emphasis has always been on Veda rather than tantra. So I'd 
 give it
zero probablility in this case.

   But I thought you have been saying a lot of his methods are 
 tantric,
   not vedic, regardless of what he calls them.
 
  The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes, the TM
  mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense.

 Yes, amd the word tantra does not exclude the sexual,even if its only
 a small part. So his REAL emphasis has NOT always been on Veda rather
 than tantra. Why would you presume he only took on SOME partial
 tantric knowledge and not the WHOLEness of it? If anything MMY goes
 for the Wholeness.

What makes you think that excluding sexual tantra what not keep it 
whole? You remove the relevant line of practice, wholeness still 
remains. You have entire lines a practice that do not include sexual 
practice and that's not a problem.

I think your answer lies in 'what types and styles of tantric 
practice do we see aligned with the Shankaracharya tradition and the 
Advaita Vedanta tradition.'


   And aren't there
   indications that SBS practiced things tantric?
 
  Indeed he did. I've received practice in SBS's line of transmission,
  however none of those practices involved sex.

 Just because he didn't practice the sexual practices, being a life
 celibate, that in no way indicates that he did not have knowledge of
 such, and could not pass them on when appropriate. I have heard he --
 being a world teacher taught those of all faiths (including muslims
 and christians) giving them things that would help them in their
 paths. EVEN though he did not practice such.

Perhaps that was part of the role he acquired as part of his 
administrative position of Shankaracharya, i.e. to promote Shankara's 
tradition a la Smarta Brahmanism. I think you should consider that 
what he really taught was outside this role.


   Is Sri Vidyha tantric?
 
  Yes, highest yoga tantra.
 
   Can a student get it (things tantric) via transmission?
 
  Well, it depends what you mean by *transmission*. In some lineages
  you always receive a transmission before you practice, that's your
  initiation and permission to do the practice.

 I mean even if you assume SBS did not much explicitly andverbally
 share his tantric knowledge with MMY, could a disciple, later in an
 awakened state, receive such knowledge bytransmission or simply
 placing attention on their master? (I GET stuff by placing attention
 on saints -- those currently in and out of mortal coil. So I know its
 a valid means of insight.)

It's possible he received transmission of Sri Vidya in this manner, 
however there is no evidence that I am aware of he did receive such.

In fact, there is strong evidence that he was actually

[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:00 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
  What specifically have you heard? I never heard him mention tantra --
  that I can recall.
 
 A friend I know asked him directly about tantra, so I'm replying 
 based on that response.

And what specifically was MMY's response. It had to be more than I am
dismissive of that.

 
  But I did hear him make cautionary or dismissive comments on Jyotish,
  ayurveda, etc, and later strongly endorse them. My sense is prior
  negative statements were to wait until the time is right rather than
  i) not know anything about them, or ii) beleiving they had no value.


 
 Anythings possible. Have you ever met any renunciates in the practice 
 line of the Shankaracharya Order who practiced sexual tantra?

I didn't ask them. But why does that directly have anything to do
with But I did hear him make cautionary or dismissive comments on
Jyotish, ayurveda, etc, and later strongly endorse them. My sense is
prior negative statements were to wait until the time is right
rather than i) not know anything about them, or ii) beleiving they had
no value.

 
 
   I would doubt it. Of course it is possible he was
   practicing tantra, but IMO, highly improbable.
 
  Again, why. Were you that close to him? Sitting around yagya pit under
  the full mmoon, trading yogi stories?
 
 No, I'm just commenting based on what I do know and his line of 
 practice.

OK. You find things highly improbable and zero probablility in this
case on weak evidence.
 

 
  Yes, amd the word tantra does not exclude the sexual,even if its only
  a small part. So his REAL emphasis has NOT always been on Veda rather
  than tantra. Why would you presume he only took on SOME partial
  tantric knowledge and not the WHOLEness of it? If anything MMY goes
  for the Wholeness.
 
 What makes you think that excluding sexual tantra what not keep it 
 whole? You remove the relevant line of practice, wholeness still 
 remains. 

That was not my intended meaning.

Let me try again to see if this is clearer:
Yes, and the word tantra does not exclude the sexual, even if its
only a small possible part of it. Given MMY had external teachings
that refelcted things tantric, why do you presume he did not also have
energetic, including kundalini and sexual, knowledge of tantra? I am
not claiming he did, but maybe its sort of a smoking gun. (hahaha,
that pun just unfolded.)

You have entire lines a practice that do not include sexual 
 practice and that's not a problem .

Yes. No argument. 
 
 I think your answer lies in 'what types and styles of tantric 
 practice do we see aligned with the Shankaracharya tradition and the 
 Advaita Vedanta tradition.'

Well while it may not (or may) be part of the Shankaracharian 
tradition and the Advaita Vedanta traditions (Isn't Brahman which is
EVERYTHING part of those traditions :) ), but appartntly explicit
tantric couplings in temples and on temple walls indicates that sexual
tantric practices are part of Indian religious traditions. 

And the Shiva lingum, while much more, has no sexual refences or
antecedants?

 
 
And aren't there
indications that SBS practiced things tantric?
  
   Indeed he did. I've received practice in SBS's line of transmission,
   however none of those practices involved sex.

They postively and absolutley did not include union with the Goddess?

And is 1000 Heaeded Purusha related to shankaracharian andavaitian
traditions? They have sexual practices. Energol. Shake-up the energy
etc. (clarifications from puruasha welcome.)

Some celibate sadhus seem to have sexual related rituals. 

So you are absolutely positive that no practices from advaitain /
shankaracharian tradition do not invole sex in any form? 


  Just because he didn't practice the sexual practices, being a life
  celibate, that in no way indicates that he did not have knowledge of
  such, and could not pass them on when appropriate. I have heard he --
  being a world teacher taught those of all faiths (including muslims
  and christians) giving them things that would help them in their
  paths. EVEN though he did not practice such.
 
 Perhaps that was part of the role he acquired as part of his 
 administrative position of Shankaracharya, i.e. to promote Shankara's 
 tradition a la Smarta Brahmanism. I think you should consider that 
 what he really taught was outside this role.

I happily consider that. To my feeble mind however, that does not
prove that SBS in inner teachings, or Shank or Advaian traditions have
no practices that have anything to do with sex, such as union with the
goddess. 

All of which swerves widely from the main point: Could MMy have some
knowledge of sexually related tantric practices by one of many means?

And if yes, is it possible, even consistent with his MO, to experiment
and test such? 

  I mean even if you assume SBS did not much explicitly andverbally
  share his tantric

[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 11:41 AM, sparaig wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  
   On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:10 AM, TurquoiseB wrote:
  
I always felt that a Western description of the essence
of tantra can be found in the Odyssey. Odysseus is
sailing past the island of the sirens, of whom he has
been warned. Sailors who hear their song become so
captured by it that they drive their ships onto the
rocks in pursuit of it and drown. So he has his crew
stuff their ears with wax so that they can sail safely
past, while he leaves his ears open and has himself
tied to the mast so that he can hear it and exper-
ience their song for himself.
   
Whatever the particular practices of a particular
formalized tradition of Tantra, its essence IMO has
to do with exploring the polarities between energies,
and learning how to manipulate those energies, for
one's own good and that of others. Sex is just one
tiny subset of polarized energies, having no more
importance than any other.
  
  
   The most remarkable western equivalents I have seen are in western
   alchemical texts and Kabbalistic texts which contain some sexual
   practices.
  
 
  Interesting that Middle Eastern and Indo-European practices are 
  referred to as Western.
 
 
 Not really. The texts I am referring to come from western Europe: 
 England and Spain. What's more interesting to me is that these texts 
 don't appear in the west until *after* the Islamic invasions of India...


Which was my point. Spain had a Moorish influence. Kaballah comes from whereever it 
comes from, but likely not Christianity.












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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]
 The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes, the TM 
 mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense.

Why do you say they are tantric in origin? 











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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

2006-06-05 Thread Bhairitu




new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 

snip


So what is yours (and Bhairitu's) take on MMY and other teachers
reported sexual encounters, with regards to tantra? Do you feel there
was some reasonable probability, or not, that there was some tantric
practice type use of sexual energy involved?


 

First off many westerners seem to know only of the renunciate yogi 
paths. Few know anything about tantra which is more often than not a 
householder path. It is the tantrik path that allows you to truly enjoy 
200% of life. As my guru likes to say there are no rules. A 
tantrik can be married and have children (my guru and his guru for 
examples). Vimlananda whom Svoboda wrote about was an aghori who was a 
householder, even known for drinking and bred race horses. Tantriks 
can have many professions and very few just practice tantra for a means 
of income.

One friend who writes articles frequently on yogis and tantriks calls 
renunciates who become involved in sexual relations fallen gurus and 
feels they have just fallen off the path or found themselves unable to 
keep on it (maybe even bored with it). It's quite a decision to truly 
take on a renunciate path. Besides I don't see any need for it. I've 
also considered that some of these teachers maybe just came to a point 
in their mind of deciding why entertain boundaries when in the 
boundless? This would be incomprehensible to their followers but 
completely make sense to another enlightened being. Some rules are 
also made for entry level sadhus to practice for a while only.

In the west if you tell a non-Indian you're a tantrik they may snicker 
or giggle and think you are engaged in some swingers club. But let me 
relate what happened once at an Indian grocery where I was purchasing 
some puja items. The father of the owner who was visiting from India 
asked me what I was buying the puja items for. He asked me if I was 
involved in some meditation program like Sivanandas. I told him I am a 
tantrik. His eyes widen and he had a great laugh and then asked me do 
you have women following you down the street all the time? If a 
westerner had been standing there they might of thought he was referring 
to the sexual aspect of tantra but he wasn't. He was referring to the 
practice of a tantrik siddhi called Vashikaran. Some tantriks use 
this siddhis to gain influence over others particularly women (or women 
tantriks over men). It can also be used to have peaceful relations with 
everyone you come into personal contact with. And of course is useful 
for building big spiritual organizations. ;-)

Indians fear tantriks because they believe they practice black magic 
and some tantriks do. However the majority practice the alleviation of 
black magic curses. And because Indians fear tantriks the majority 
of those residing in the west particularly the US will advertise 
themselves as astrologers in the Indian magazines and newspapers. Of 
course keep in mind that a fair number of those advertising are 
charlatans and come from no path or tradition.

I believe the idea that tantra had something to do with sex and 
particularly being in control of ones sexual abilities (and yes tantriks 
call it control not expansion) has to do with a very, very advanced 
technique that is required for one to be recognized as a tantrik 
acharya. Tantrik gurus prefer that you perform this with your wife. 
And there are substitutions for those luckless enough to not have 
marriage in the karma. My belief is that an exaggeration on this 
practice is why westerners believe tantra is about sex. It plays a very 
small part though it is part of the 5 M's. Most shishyas probably don't 
even get to that stage because it takes at least 12 years to get to that 
point if not longer.

In another reply you asked if someone found out that a tantrik like 
myself was have sexual relations with someone I would say it would be no 
different from anyone else having sexual relations. Myself, I don't 
believe in a lot of the conventions of society that have been passed 
down by various religious traditions. Many of these conventions I 
believe were instituted by priests at the behest of kings who were 
interested in keeping the population down as free love had disastrous 
results in times of famine. Kings found that having their priests 
impose rules was far safer than imposing rules themselves. :) All 
things in moderation is probably a more reasonable rule.

Also note I am commenting from the standpoint of my tradition which is 
based on the Kali Sadhaka Garanth and very much a Bengali village type 
tantra. There are many tantrik traditions in India so you can find 
variations on the practice but most all of them do not involve sex as 
the principle part of their practice.

That's my two cents and I hope it helps.

- Bhairitu







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:00 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
   What specifically have you heard? I never heard him mention 
 tantra --
   that I can recall.
 
  A friend I know asked him directly about tantra, so I'm replying
  based on that response.

 And what specifically was MMY's response. It had to be more than I am
 dismissive of that.

It was not very approving.



   But I did hear him make cautionary or dismissive comments on 
 Jyotish,
   ayurveda, etc, and later strongly endorse them. My sense is prior
   negative statements were to wait until the time is right 
 rather than
   i) not know anything about them, or ii) beleiving they had no 
 value.



  Anythings possible. Have you ever met any renunciates in the 
 practice
  line of the Shankaracharya Order who practiced sexual tantra?

 I didn't ask them. But why does that directly have anything to do
 with But I did hear him make cautionary or dismissive comments on
 Jyotish, ayurveda, etc, and later strongly endorse them. My sense is
 prior negative statements were to wait until the time is right
 rather than i) not know anything about them, or ii) beleiving they had
 no value.

To show how improbable it would be to see 'this tantric sexual 
knowledge brought out'. Jyotish, Ayurveda, etc. has been taught side- 
by-side with the tradition he comes from for a long, long time. 
Sexual tantra has not.

Therefore it's unreasoable to expect that to happen--esp. from 
someone who claims to be a monk.



  
I would doubt it. Of course it is possible he was
practicing tantra, but IMO, highly improbable.
  
   Again, why. Were you that close to him? Sitting around yagya 
 pit under
   the full mmoon, trading yogi stories?
 
  No, I'm just commenting based on what I do know and his line of
  practice.

 OK. You find things highly improbable and zero probablility in this
 case on weak evidence.

I see no evidence that M. ever practiced sexual aspects of tantra!

  
   Yes, amd the word tantra does not exclude the sexual,even if its 
only
   a small part. So his REAL emphasis has NOT always been on Veda 
rather
   than tantra. Why would you presume he only took on SOME partial
   tantric knowledge and not the WHOLEness of it? If anything MMY goes
   for the Wholeness.
 
  What makes you think that excluding sexual tantra what not keep it
  whole? You remove the relevant line of practice, wholeness still
  remains.

 That was not my intended meaning.

 Let me try again to see if this is clearer:
 Yes, and the word tantra does not exclude the sexual, even if its
 only a small possible part of it. Given MMY had external teachings
 that refelcted things tantric, why do you presume he did not also have
 energetic, including kundalini and sexual, knowledge of tantra? I am
 not claiming he did, but maybe its sort of a smoking gun. (hahaha,
 that pun just unfolded.)

Because the style of tantra which would contain those teachings would 
be ones we would be very unlikely to have an interest in based on his 
what his other spiritual interests seem to be. I think you have to 
understand that the practices we're talking about contain 
*transgressive practices*, in other words they are going to have 
practices built into them which would be considered a violation of 
natural law. One of the reasons there there is to blow away your 
conceptions--another is to keep certain people out.

 You have entire lines a practice that do not include sexual
  practice and that's not a problem .

Yes. No argument.

  I think your answer lies in 'what types and styles of tantric
  practice do we see aligned with the Shankaracharya tradition and the
  Advaita Vedanta tradition.'

 Well while it may not (or may) be part of the Shankaracharian
 tradition and the Advaita Vedanta traditions (Isn't Brahman which is
 EVERYTHING part of those traditions :) )

Brahman in tantra? Find me a quote if you think it is.

 , but appartntly explicit
 tantric couplings in temples and on temple walls indicates that sexual
 tantric practices are part of Indian religious traditions.

Certain styles and lines of tantra.


 And the Shiva lingum, while much more, has no sexual refences or
 antecedants?

It's pre-Vedic. But it also has different meanings at different 
levels, e.g. the koshas for an Advaitin.


  
 And aren't there
 indications that SBS practiced things tantric?
   
Indeed he did. I've received practice in SBS's line of 
transmission,
however none of those practices involved sex.

 They postively and absolutley did not include union with the Goddess?

Not in the teaching I received.


 And is 1000 Heaeded Purusha related to shankaracharian andavaitian
 traditions?

Rig Veda, a famous quote I thought.

 They have sexual practices. Energol. Shake-up the energy
 etc. (clarifications from puruasha welcome.)

Presumably to keep ojas from

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [...]
  The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes, the TM
  mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense.

 Why do you say they are tantric in origin?

Because they all occur in tantras and aren't found at all in the Vedas.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

 I happily consider that. To my feeble mind however, that does not
 prove that SBS in inner teachings, or Shank or Advaian traditions have
 no practices that have anything to do with sex, such as union with the
 goddess.

Well that depends how you define union with the goddess.


 All of which swerves widely from the main point: Could MMy have some
 knowledge of sexually related tantric practices by one of many means?

Of course you know it's likely he could, esp. if he really is a yogi, 
since one of the main texts on yoga contains rather explicit 
instructions...

There's just absolutely no evidence he practices these.


 And if yes, is it possible, even consistent with his MO, to experiment
 and test such?

   I mean even if you assume SBS did not much explicitly andverbally
   share his tantric knowledge with MMY, could a disciple, later 
 in an
   awakened state, receive such knowledge bytransmission or simply
   placing attention on their master? (I GET stuff by placing 
 attention
   on saints -- those currently in and out of mortal coil. So I 
 know its
   a valid means of insight.)
 
  It's possible he received transmission of Sri Vidya in this manner,
  however there is no evidence that I am aware of he did receive such.

 Agreed. So its possible. Not established either way.

Well he does have one revelation he has claimed to have received, the 
uncreated commentary of the Rig Veda, but to my knowledge no one 
has ever seen it.



  In fact, there is strong evidence that he was actually quite 
 ignorant
  of many details and was actually coached by both western scholars 
 and
  eastern pundits.

 While I am aware of your evidence I believe, I would not characerize
 it as strong evidence of ignorance. Most teachers bring in pundits or
 scholars to eloborate on things, don't they. Are you implying all
 teachers should be both i) totally omnicient and ii) able to clearly
 communicate such omnicance? If not, the use of outside scholars seems
 reasonable. If not prudent.

In this case it was him actually being coached.

He also has brought people in to teach him things.


  There is also evidence that things he claimed to
  have had revelations on were items he was coached on the night
  before.

 Primarily one persons accounts (and while his observations may be
 valid, you have to admit, is a bit charged up and ranting), which I
 have read too.

 I never heard M to proclaim revelations. Are you getting mixed up
 with Biblical saints? :) When did you specifically, in person, hear
 him say, I have a revelation!

 And If he did, does that preclude having a revelation induced by what
 some pundit said?

 In other words they were phony revelations.

 My what greap leaps of logic.

  Indeed some of
  the more prominent revelations of MMY are straight out of various
  commentaries.

 And you expected him to teach something outside of the Holy Tradition?
 
  In other words, if he did claim to have received such revelation, I
  (personally), would take it with a very large grain of salt.

 Ok. And if he didn't claim such. But simply shared some insights he
 got from listening to scripture,and discussing such from pundits.

Unfortunately it didn't come out that way to the disciples.

I think he did get insights from listening to pundits, but it ended 
up coming out as the Great rishi hath spoken this revealed 
material. In any event, I'd need to see more evidence of these 
alleged Maheshian revelations before I'd believe a word.


 INmy personal observation, M never claimed to be a Rig Veda scholar.
 THATS why in the early 7o's he invited Pundit Devarat -- the most
 respected Rig Veda pundit at thattime, to join him. To chant and
 discuss things in RV everyday. I personally saw M give great respect,
 honor and reverence to Deverat everyday. Same with SamaVed Pundits.

 What pundits did you personally see him rob stuff from.

Now you're saying I said he robbed stuff from pundits?
sigh Nevermind.

In short, I see no evidence to support your Maharishi-as-tantric 
adept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneous 
transmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time.

Certainly not an Occam's razor kinda idea.

Perhaps Rick could pass on this idea to some of the women he had 
tantric sex with and you could get their response?









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
 Well he does have one revelation he has claimed to have received, 
 the uncreated commentary of the Rig Veda, but to my knowledge no 
 one has ever seen it.

LOL!!!

Omigod, that's *hilarious*.

You did mean that as a joke, right, Vaj?











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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:00 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
  
What specifically have you heard? I never heard him mention 
  tantra --
that I can recall.
  
   A friend I know asked him directly about tantra, so I'm replying
   based on that response.
 
  And what specifically was MMY's response. It had to be more than I am
  dismissive of that.
 
 It was not very approving.

Not approving of real tantra or sexual tantra? 
  I think your answer lies in 'what types and styles of tantric
  practice do we see aligned with the Shankaracharya tradition and the
  Advaita Vedanta tradition.'
 
  Well while it may not (or may) be part of the Shankaracharian
  tradition and the Advaita Vedanta traditions (Isn't Brahman which is
  EVERYTHING part of those traditions :) )
 
 Brahman in tantra? Find me a quote if you think it is.

OK DOKIE. Perhaps my sense of references is out of whack, maybe not.
Let my joke be made abundantly clear:

Well while it may not (or may) be part of the Shankaracharian
tradition and the Advaita Vedanta traditions (Isn't Brahman which is
EVERYTHING part of those Shankaracharian tradition and the Advaita
Vedanta traditions :) )

If you are still reading that I am saying Brahman is in tantra,
well what can I say. 

I was making a joke via an indisputable tain of logic: Everything is
in Brahman, thus tantra is in Brahman. And since Brahman is at the
core of part of Shankaracharian and Advaita Vedanta traditions,
therefore tantra must be part Shankaracharian tradition Advaita
Vedanta traditions. :)

 
  They postively and absolutley did not include union with the Goddess?
 
 Not in the teaching I received.

But that is hardly comprehensive or conclusive. 
 
 
  And is 1000 Heaeded Purusha related to shankaracharian andavaitian
  traditions?
 
 Rig Veda, a famous quote I thought.
 
  They have sexual practices. Energol. Shake-up the energy
  etc. (clarifications from puruasha welcome.)
 
 Presumably to keep ojas from drying up.
 
 
  Some celibate sadhus seem to have sexual related rituals.
 
 Indeed they do.
 
  So you are absolutely positive that no practices from advaitain /
  shankaracharian tradition do not invole sex in any form?
 
 It's a renunciate trip dude. 
It would also depend on what you mean by 
 any form. 

I just gave several examples: 

union with the Goddess?
Energol. Shake-up the energy


 In any event, you're getting off tangent here.
Well I may be on a tangent for your train of thought. Not mine. I hope
you see the difference.
 
 The person who there is the most evidence FOR using sexual tantric 
 practices with his disciples is probably Muktananda IMO. Not M.
 
 Of course there is Adi Da also.
 
Which is fine. My primary hypothesis, which you have provided no
evidence of substance to counter is that i) it is possible M. had
knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices, including
the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii) its
possible he expermiented or practiced such in his encounters,and iii)
maybe it was raw sensual sex.

If you have any such evidence that it was i) NOT possible M. had
knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices, including
the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii) its NOT
possible that he expermiented or practiced such in his encounters, and
iii) OR that maybe it was NOT raw sensual sex, then provide away.
















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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
  All of which swerves widely from the main point: Could MMy have some
  knowledge of sexually related tantric practices by one of many means?

 
 Of course you know it's likely he could, esp. if he really is a yogi, 
 since one of the main texts on yoga contains rather explicit 
 instructions...

OK then.
 
 There's just absolutely no evidence he practices these.



And it appears, to the same degree your statement above reflects the
truth, There's just absolutely no evidence that he DOESN'T practice
these.


   It's possible he received transmission of Sri Vidya in this manner,
   however there is no evidence that I am aware of he did receive such.
 
  Agreed. So its possible. Not established either way.

 
 
 He also has brought people in to teach him things.

Oh the shame, the shame Were (among) their names, Larry Domash
and John Haiglin?
 


   Indeed some of
   the more prominent revelations of MMY are straight out of various
   commentaries.
 
  And you expected him to teach something outside of the Holy Tradition?


   In other words, if he did claim to have received such revelation, I
   (personally), would take it with a very large grain of salt.
 
  Ok. And if he didn't claim such. But simply shared some insights he
  got from listening to scripture,and discussing such from pundits.
 
 Unfortunately it didn't come out that way to the disciples.

I didn't realize he had disciples outside of india (and avery few ex
western ones). So either you have some MUCH MUCH more inner knowledge
of M and TMO, or are overcome by the reflected light of myths which
reflect on mirrors MUCH MUCH on the outside from point from where I
observed things. 

How often did you see M discuss things with Pundits? I did everyday
for a long time. And of course there have been many more days in the
past 30 years that I have not. I don't claim comprehnsiveness. But in
my in-person experience, I recall a lot of gentle back and forth,
respective and loving exchanges, and LOTS of respect paid by M to the
pundits.

Who are referencing besides {Tom??} from Estes Park?

 
 I think he did get insights from listening to pundits, but it ended 
 up coming out as the Great rishi hath spoken this revealed 
 material. 

You personally witnessed this? I never did. Rick, did you?

Or are you going on 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand accounts? Where layers of
interpreatations come into play. And tell me with a straight face
that Tom(?) the Estes Park guy doesn't have a specific angle, and
exhibits strong attempts to convince people of his POV. Not a crime,
but he clearly is not an impassioned observer.

 
  INmy personal observation, M never claimed to be a Rig Veda scholar.
  THATS why in the early 7o's he invited Pundit Devarat -- the most
  respected Rig Veda pundit at thattime, to join him. To chant and
  discuss things in RV everyday. I personally saw M give great respect,
  honor and reverence to Deverat everyday. Same with SamaVed Pundits.
 
  What pundits did you personally see him rob stuff from.
 
 Now you're saying I said he robbed stuff from pundits?
 sigh Nevermind.

OK. Why get dismissive and condescending, friend? I take this as a
friendly exhange to get to what we know and what we do n't know. It is
my word rob, not yours, describing what I interpreted what you were
trying to say. What verb would you use to best describe his actions
towards them.
 
 In short, I see no evidence to support your Maharishi-as-tantric 
 adept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneous 
 transmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time.

Which I am not claiming as certain. But as one of many possiblities.
I hope the above is not a strawman formulation. You read more clearly
than that. I have raised the possibility that:

1) M had or probably had access to i) a tantric teacher, ii) a number
of tantric / yogic adepts, iii) passive and active transmission, from
ii) and iv) a culture where real tantra was known by many. And thus M
MAY have had some knowledge of the small subset of trantra having to
do with sex and internal energies. I see this as quite probable. You
may not.

2) M is an experimenter. Maybe in your experience around him, you were
not fortunate enough to see this. But its a wonderful adaptiveness and
responsiveness to what works and tossing, or waiting on, things that
don't work. Its constant. So if #1 is possible and even likely, I
personally find it possible, if not likely that M experiemented with
sexual tantra in his encounters with 20ish quite shaki-laden women
(one of the shakti-laden woman I used to observe every night). 
 
So that you see no evidence to support your Maharishi-as-tantric 
adept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneous 
transmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time most odd
characterization is no surprise. Its a limited and distorted,

[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

2006-06-05 Thread vajradhatu108




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  
  On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
   
On Jun 5, 2006, at 1:00 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
   
 What specifically have you heard? I never heard him mention 
   tantra --
 that I can recall.
   
A friend I know asked him directly about tantra, so I'm replying
based on that response.
  
   And what specifically was MMY's response. It had to be more than I am
   dismissive of that.
  
  It was not very approving.
 
 Not approving of real tantra or sexual tantra? 

Sorry, for some reason am not getting all messages, so responding on this weird web 
interface.

Tantra in general.

   I think your answer lies in 'what types and styles of tantric
   practice do we see aligned with the Shankaracharya tradition and the
   Advaita Vedanta tradition.'
  
   Well while it may not (or may) be part of the Shankaracharian
   tradition and the Advaita Vedanta traditions (Isn't Brahman which is
   EVERYTHING part of those traditions :) )
  
  Brahman in tantra? Find me a quote if you think it is.
 
 OK DOKIE. Perhaps my sense of references is out of whack, maybe not.
 Let my joke be made abundantly clear:
 
 Well while it may not (or may) be part of the Shankaracharian
 tradition and the Advaita Vedanta traditions (Isn't Brahman which is
 EVERYTHING part of those Shankaracharian tradition and the Advaita
 Vedanta traditions :) )
 
 If you are still reading that I am saying Brahman is in tantra,
 well what can I say. 

Yeah I got that, but the return joke is Brahman is more part of prissy Vedanta.

 
 I was making a joke via an indisputable tain of logic: Everything is
 in Brahman, thus tantra is in Brahman. And since Brahman is at the
 core of part of Shankaracharian and Advaita Vedanta traditions,
 therefore tantra must be part Shankaracharian tradition Advaita
 Vedanta traditions. :)

Yes I got that. The real joke is, it is not generally part of tantra.

 
 
   They postively and absolutley did not include union with the Goddess?
  
  Not in the teaching I received.
 
 But that is hardly comprehensive or conclusive. 

It wasn't intended to be, it *was* intended to be a window on the style of practice of SBS.

 
  
   And is 1000 Heaeded Purusha related to shankaracharian andavaitian
   traditions?
  
  Rig Veda, a famous quote I thought.
  
   They have sexual practices. Energol. Shake-up the energy
   etc. (clarifications from puruasha welcome.)
  
  Presumably to keep ojas from drying up.
  
  
   Some celibate sadhus seem to have sexual related rituals.
  
  Indeed they do.
  
   So you are absolutely positive that no practices from advaitain /
   shankaracharian tradition do not invole sex in any form?
  
  It's a renunciate trip dude. 
 It would also depend on what you mean by 
  any form. 
 
 I just gave several examples: 

Oh, those.

 
 union with the Goddess?
 Energol. Shake-up the energy
 
 
  In any event, you're getting off tangent here.
 Well I may be on a tangent for your train of thought. Not mine. I hope
 you see the difference.
  
  The person who there is the most evidence FOR using sexual tantric 
  practices with his disciples is probably Muktananda IMO. Not M.
  
  Of course there is Adi Da also.
 
 Which is fine. My primary hypothesis, which you have provided no
 evidence of substance to counter is that i) it is possible M. had
 knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices, including
 the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii) its
 possible he expermiented or practiced such in his encounters,and iii)
 maybe it was raw sensual sex.
 
 If you have any such evidence that it was i) NOT possible M. had
 knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices, including
 the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii) its NOT
 possible that he expermiented or practiced such in his encounters, and
 iii) OR that maybe it was NOT raw sensual sex, then provide away.


Once again, ANYTHING is possible, some things are more probable. It's highly improbable 
M. is a tantric adept, for the numerous valid reasons I've already given. But it would be 
helpful to have a clearer blow-by-blow description from one of the ladies involved. ;-)

One further comment. Most tantra which is of a sexual nature also requires a 
corresponding female adept, otherwise there is utter imbalance in the equation. Since 
there is no mention of these women being trained in such--quite the opposite, extant 
accounts seem to show more of a shock at the spiritual incest they endured.











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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

2006-06-05 Thread Rick Archer




on 6/5/06 5:16 PM, vajradhatu108 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Once again, ANYTHING is possible, some things are more probable. It's highly
 improbable 
 M. is a tantric adept, for the numerous valid reasons I've already given. But
 it would be 
 helpful to have a clearer blow-by-blow description from one of the ladies
 involved. ;-)

One account mentioned premature ejaculations. Doesn't sound too Tantric.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, vajradhatu108 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Which is fine. My primary hypothesis, which you have provided no
  evidence of substance to counter is that i) it is possible M. had
  knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices, including
  the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii) its
  possible he expermiented or practiced such in his encounters,and iii)
  maybe it was raw sensual sex.
  
  If you have any such evidence that it was i) NOT possible M. had
  knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices, including
  the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii) its NOT
  possible that he expermiented or practiced such in his encounters, and
  iii) OR that maybe it was NOT raw sensual sex, then provide away.
 
 
 Once again, ANYTHING is possible, some things are more probable. 

It's highly improbable 
 M. is a tantric adept, 

B! Red herring alert. :)  No need to be a tantric adept to have
some basic knowledge of sexual tantra. 

for the numerous valid reasons I've already given. But it would be 
 helpful to have a clearer blow-by-blow description from one of the 
ladies involved. ;-)

You perv!  :) Maybe you and shemp can watch after the math teacher
student video. :)


 One further comment. Most tantra which is of a sexual nature also
requires a 
 corresponding female adept, 

Hey Jennifer was WAY adept (at overflowing in shakti). Oh, you mean
like a tantric adept. Never mind

I mean, where is a girl going to learn these things!!?? if some kindly
teacher type isn't going to show them. 

I bet MGM offers to initiate the inexperienced non-adepts into the
practice. 

otherwise there is utter imbalance in the equation. 

So Muktanada's 16 yr olds were tantra adepts? Come on!!! 

And I know of a sexual tantra adeptress in the Bay Area willing to
teach even the most unadept. 

Maybe part of adeptness is being able to balance things out even with
the less adept.

I mean if ALL sexual trantic adepts had to be full adepts before they
practiced any sexual tantric practices, we have a real chicken and egg
problem here, don't we! ED 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 6/5/06 5:16 PM, vajradhatu108 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Once again, ANYTHING is possible, some things are more probable.
It's highly
  improbable 
  M. is a tantric adept, for the numerous valid reasons I've already
given. But
  it would be 
  helpful to have a clearer blow-by-blow description from one of the
ladies
  involved. ;-)
 
 One account mentioned premature ejaculations. Doesn't sound too Tantric.


It sounds more like Vaj's famous balanced equations One non-adept
attempting sexual tanric with another. 

The first part of the hypothesis is not that he was a sexual tantic
adept, but that in a live in i)india, iii) around all sorts or yogis,
and sadhus, iii) 13 close years with a master with tantric (not
necessarily sexual) kowledge, that low and behod, via at least
osmosis, he sort of got the drift.

The second part of the hypothesis, is that he may have experimented
with whatever knowledge he had per above. And OOOPS!, mistakes
happen! Even in the best of experiments.











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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





On Jun 5, 2006, at 4:43 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:46 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
  
   All of which swerves widely from the main point: Could MMy have 
 some
   knowledge of sexually related tantric practices by one of many 
 means?


  Of course you know it's likely he could, esp. if he really is a 
 yogi,
  since one of the main texts on yoga contains rather explicit
  instructions...

 OK then.

  There's just absolutely no evidence he practices these.



 And it appears, to the same degree your statement above reflects the
 truth, There's just absolutely no evidence that he DOESN'T practice
 these.


It's possible he received transmission of Sri Vidya in this 
 manner,
however there is no evidence that I am aware of he did 
 receive such.
  
   Agreed. So its possible. Not established either way.


 
  He also has brought people in to teach him things.

 Oh the shame, the shame Were (among) their names, Larry Domash
 and John Haiglin?

No...




Indeed some of
the more prominent revelations of MMY are straight out of 
 various
commentaries.
  
   And you expected him to teach something outside of the Holy 
 Tradition?


In other words, if he did claim to have received such 
 revelation, I
(personally), would take it with a very large grain of salt.
  
   Ok. And if he didn't claim such. But simply shared some 
 insights he
   got from listening to scripture,and discussing such from pundits.
 
  Unfortunately it didn't come out that way to the disciples.

 I didn't realize he had disciples outside of india (and avery few ex
 western ones). So either you have some MUCH MUCH more inner knowledge
 of M and TMO, or are overcome by the reflected light of myths which
 reflect on mirrors MUCH MUCH on the outside from point from where I
 observed things.

 How often did you see M discuss things with Pundits? I did everyday
 for a long time. And of course there have been many more days in the
 past 30 years that I have not. I don't claim comprehnsiveness. But in
 my in-person experience, I recall a lot of gentle back and forth,
 respective and loving exchanges, and LOTS of respect paid by M to the
 pundits.

And that's fine, that's what I'd expect. I'm glad you have good 
memories of your time spent (no pun intended with M.


 Who are referencing besides {Tom??} from Estes Park?

I am not referring to anyone named Tom, sorry.



  I think he did get insights from listening to pundits, but it ended
  up coming out as the Great rishi hath spoken this revealed
  material.

 You personally witnessed this? I never did. Rick, did you?

Then show me where they are credited. Perhaps he has in his spoken 
lectures credited these men--or perhaps it's in some writing I missed.


 Or are you going on 2nd, 3rd and 4th hand accounts? Where layers of
 interpreatations come into play. And tell me with a straight face
 that Tom(?) the Estes Park guy doesn't have a specific angle, and
 exhibits strong attempts to convince people of his POV. Not a crime,
 but he clearly is not an impassioned observer.

  
   INmy personal observation, M never claimed to be a Rig Veda 
 scholar.
   THATS why in the early 7o's he invited Pundit Devarat -- the most
   respected Rig Veda pundit at thattime, to join him. To chant and
   discuss things in RV everyday. I personally saw M give great 
 respect,
   honor and reverence to Deverat everyday. Same with SamaVed 
 Pundits.
  
   What pundits did you personally see him rob stuff from.
 
  Now you're saying I said he robbed stuff from pundits?
  sigh Nevermind.

 OK. Why get dismissive and condescending, friend? I take this as a
 friendly exhange to get to what we know and what we do n't know. It is
 my word rob, not yours, describing what I interpreted what you were
 trying to say. What verb would you use to best describe his actions
 towards them.

I'm merely responding to your remarks attempting to imply I said 
something which I did not, or imply some sort of tone to my response. 
There was no intention whatsoever to condescend.



  In short, I see no evidence to support your Maharishi-as-tantric
  adept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneous
  transmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time.

 Which I am not claiming as certain. But as one of many possiblities.
 I hope the above is not a strawman formulation. You read more clearly
 than that. I have raised the possibility that:

 1) M had or probably had access to i) a tantric teacher, ii) a number
 of tantric / yogic adepts, iii) passive and active transmission, from
 ii) and iv) a culture where real tantra was known by many. And thus M
 MAY have had some knowledge of the small subset of trantra having to
 do with sex and internal energies. I see this as quite probable. You
 may not.

Anythings possible...but I still find the idea lacking, or more 
likely desperation

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)


On Jun 5, 2006, at 7:36 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, vajradhatu108 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
 no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Which is fine. My primary hypothesis, which you have provided no
   evidence of substance to counter is that i) it is possible M. had
   knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices,  
 including
   the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii) its
   possible he expermiented or practiced such in his  
 encounters,and iii)
   maybe it was raw sensual sex.
  
   If you have any such evidence that it was i) NOT possible M. had
   knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices,  
 including
   the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii)  
 its NOT
   possible that he expermiented or practiced such in his  
 encounters, and
   iii) OR that maybe it was NOT raw sensual sex, then provide away.
  
 
  Once again, ANYTHING is possible, some things are more probable.

 It's highly improbable
  M. is a tantric adept,

 B! Red herring alert. :)  No need to be a tantric adept to have
 some basic knowledge of sexual tantra.

So are you implying sexual tantra is generally practiced by beginners  
or those of intermediate experience?

Oh please, I've been reading your red herring soup all day!


 for the numerous valid reasons I've already given. But it would be
  helpful to have a clearer blow-by-blow description from one of the 
 ladies involved. ;-)

 You perv!  :) Maybe you and shemp can watch after the math teacher
 student video. :)

I'm sorry that's over my head.



  One further comment. Most tantra which is of a sexual nature also
 requires a
  corresponding female adept,

 Hey Jennifer was WAY adept (at overflowing in shakti). Oh, you mean
 like a tantric adept. Never mind

 I mean, where is a girl going to learn these things!!?? if some kindly
 teacher type isn't going to show them.

 I bet MGM offers to initiate the inexperienced non-adepts into the
 practice.

Maybe you could be his sponsor?

;-)


 otherwise there is utter imbalance in the equation.

 So Muktanada's 16 yr olds were tantra adepts? Come on!!!

Again, an important fine point. Muktananda claimed to be doing yoni- 
puja on these women AND practicing urdhva-retas on these kids. And  
first hand accounts tend to bear this out, that is they were  
congruent with someone who was practicing vajroli. Interestingly this  
practiceis also considered helpful in being able to perform  
shaktipat, so there is a practical connection there (which of course  
also makes it much more difficult for these ladies to process their  
trauma).


 And I know of a sexual tantra adeptress in the Bay Area willing to
 teach even the most unadept.

Please don't forget to write.


 Maybe part of adeptness is being able to balance things out even with
 the less adept.

 I mean if ALL sexual trantic adepts had to be full adepts before they
 practiced any sexual tantric practices, we have a real chicken and egg
 problem here, don't we! ED

Not necessarily. The tantric adepts I know have spent decades  
learning and actually balancing their energies and kundalini--and how  
to move it through the various conduits of the body. They have  
detailed experiential knowledge of sexual energy and the pranas. When  
it comes time to use or be a mudra, they already well know what is  
necessary. In other words these are like spiritual olympic athletes.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)


On Jun 5, 2006, at 7:42 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  on 6/5/06 5:16 PM, vajradhatu108 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   Once again, ANYTHING is possible, some things are more probable.
 It's highly
   improbable
   M. is a tantric adept, for the numerous valid reasons I've already
 given. But
   it would be
   helpful to have a clearer blow-by-blow description from one of the
 ladies
   involved. ;-)
 
  One account mentioned premature ejaculations. Doesn't sound too  
 Tantric.
 


That's what I thought.


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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  [...]
   The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes, the TM
   mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense.
 
  Why do you say they are tantric in origin?
 
 Because they all occur in tantras and aren't found at all in the Vedas.



Hmmm... When MMY refers to the vedic, he's talking about all the vedic 
literature as he 
defines it PLUS any techniques he associates with that liteature, such as dyhan.

http://ff.mum.edu/vedicreserve/

That a list of mantras doesn't appear in the Veda explicitly isn't any more 
relevant  than 
the fact that the 100,000+ variations of the yoga asanas don't get explicit 
mention either 
--or are you saying that only asanas that are described/mentioned explicitly in 
the Vedas 
are genuine vedic asanas?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   He also has brought people in to teach him things.
 
  Oh the shame, the shame  Were (among) their names, Larry Domash
  and John Haiglin?
 
 No...

So it was ok to bring in Domash and Haiglin to teach him things, but
not pundits expert in different parts of the Veda? Did/do you really
believe M was an expert in everything? I never suffered that delusion,
thus I guess I am not shocked when its said M brought people in to
teach him stuff. I just figured that was smart.

 
  Who are referencing besides {Tom??} from Estes Park?
 
 I am not referring to anyone named Tom, sorry.
 

OK, Rick, AMTers. help me out. What is the name of the guy who was in
Estes Park, was innerish circle for a bit, observed M discussing
with pudits points of insight and commentary, freaked out about it,
and wrote extensively on AMT (I think) and other places about it?  


   I think he did get insights from listening to pundits, but it ended
   up coming out as the Great rishi hath spoken this revealed
   material.
 
  You personally witnessed this? I never did. Rick, did you?
 
 Then show me where they are credited. Perhaps he has in his spoken  
 lectures credited these men--or perhaps it's in some writing I missed.

Um, odd question, IMO M often references pundits he has talked to. Or
groups. But probably not always. I learned a lot of stuff in college
(I know --it hardly shows) from lots of profs, but I don't usually
reference each and every one when I speak authorittively on things. Do
you? How odd if so. 

 
   
In my personal observation, M never claimed to be a Rig Veda  
  scholar.
THATS why in the early 7o's he invited Pundit Devarat -- the most
respected Rig Veda pundit at thattime, to join him. To chant and
discuss things in RV everyday. I personally saw M give great  
  respect,
honor and reverence to Deverat everyday. Same with SamaVed  
  Pundits.
   

 I'm merely responding to your remarks attempting to imply I said  
 something which I did not, or imply some sort of tone to my response.  

I used the term rob. I said apparently I  got it wrong. Again, What
verb would you use to best describe his [M} actions
towards them [pundits] [and the knowledge he gleaned from them]? 

I have raised the possibility that:
 
  1) M had or probably had access to i) a tantric teacher, ii) a number
  of tantric / yogic adepts, iii) passive and active transmission, from
  ii) and iv) a culture where real tantra was known by many. And thus M
  MAY have had some knowledge of the small subset of trantra having to
  do with sex and internal energies. I see this as quite probable. You
  may not.
 
 Anythings possible...but I still find the idea lacking, or more  
 likely desperation of your part. It just doesn't wash in so many ways.

hahaha. Desparation!!! ??? As if I care if he banged Jennifer with a
cowboy hat on yelling yahoo? More power to him if thats the case.
She was poised, charming and beautiful. But in my experience around M,
it just seems that experimenting with stuff was more his style. And
experimenting with tantric sex presented itself. And he did it. 

I am guessing you didn't get a chance to see, beyond lectures, and
grok his experimental style. Lets try this and see what happens.
Then lets try this and see what happens. Then... All his famous
unfinished projects are IMO just experiments he started, got the
response he needed, and he moved on.

 
 
  2) M is an experimenter. Maybe in your experience around him, you were
  not fortunate enough to see this. But its a wonderful adaptiveness and
  responsiveness to what works and tossing, or waiting on, things that
  don't work. Its constant. So if #1 is possible and even likely, I
  personally find it possible, if not likely that M experiemented with
  sexual tantra in his encounters with 20ish quite shaki-laden women
  (one of the shakti-laden woman I used to observe every night).

 
 Of course we know he is an experimenter, but there has never been any  
 overtly sexual teachings brought out, or any meetings with tantrics  
 reported. 
Duh. :) Not all experiments work out. And who knows whathe tells the
rajas. 

Of course it could have happened. But he also could have in  
 depth sexual imformation from the extraterrtrials in that UFO in  
 Switzerland. At least some people witnessed that...

hahahaha. Yea. Ask Casey Coleman and Rick Stanely who people on FFL
SWORE they had heard these guys say they witnessed UFOs with M. They
each responded on FFL and basically said, What crap.


 
 
  So that you see no evidence to support your Maharishi-as-tantric
  adept enlightening his female students thru sex from the spontaneous
  transmission he received from SBS once-upon-a-time most odd
  characterization is no surprise. Its a limited and distorted,
  strawmanish representation of what has been said, its mind-boggling
  that its coming from you. Who I take as a open, open-inquiry,

[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
   Who are referencing besides {Tom??} from Estes Park?
  
  I am not referring to anyone named Tom, sorry.
 
 OK, Rick, AMTers. help me out. What is the name of the guy who was 
 in Estes Park, was innerish circle for a bit, observed M 
 discussing with pudits points of insight and commentary, freaked 
 out about it, and wrote extensively on AMT (I think) and other 
 places about it?

He went by various names.  One of them was a Sanskrit
term I can't remember, began with an SU-, I think, ended
in an A, two or three syllables.  He called himself Tom
in one of his netcarnations, but there were others as well.
He's turned up a couple of times recently on alt.m.t, I
believe, with yet another name.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

On Jun 5, 2006, at 9:47 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@... wrote: On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: [...] The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes, the TM mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense. Why do you say they are tantric in origin? Because they all occur in tantras and aren't found at all in the Vedas.Hmmm... When MMY refers to the "vedic," he's talking about all the "vedic literature" as he defines it PLUS any techniques he associates with that liteature, such as dyhan.http://ff.mum.edu/vedicreserve/That a list of mantras doesn't appear in the Veda explicitly isn't any more relevant than the fact that the 100,000+ variations of the yoga asanas don't get explicit mention either --or are you saying that only asanas that are described/mentioned explicitly in the Vedas are genuine vedic asanas?Yoga asanas come from the Nath tantric siddhas. They ain't Vedic either dude.
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 7:36 PM, new_morning_blank_slate wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, vajradhatu108 vajranatha@
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate
  no_reply@ wrote:
   
Which is fine. My primary hypothesis, which you have provided no
evidence of substance to counter is that i) it is possible M. had
knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices,  
  including
the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii) its
possible he expermiented or practiced such in his  
  encounters,and iii)
maybe it was raw sensual sex.
   
If you have any such evidence that it was i) NOT possible M. had
knowledge of multiple, if not many real tantric practices,  
  including
the small subset related to sex and union and flows, and ii)  
  its NOT
possible that he expermiented or practiced such in his  
  encounters, and
iii) OR that maybe it was NOT raw sensual sex, then provide away.
   
  
   Once again, ANYTHING is possible, some things are more probable.
 
  It's highly improbable
   M. is a tantric adept,
 
  B! Red herring alert. :)  No need to be a tantric adept to have
  some basic knowledge of sexual tantra.
 
 So are you implying sexual tantra is generally practiced by beginners  
 or those of intermediate experience?

Oh My. Do you REALLY hold B follows from A above? If so, thats
enlightening. In so many ways.


 Oh please, I've been reading your red herring soup all day!

Please point it out. I hate logical fallacies. If I have been making
some, please point them out specifically. (or will it be, I can't at
this time excuse again. :))
 
 
  otherwise there is utter imbalance in the equation.
 
  So Muktanada's 16 yr olds were tantra adepts? Come on!!!
 
 Again, an important fine point. Muktananda claimed to be doing yoni- 
 puja on these women AND practicing urdhva-retas on these kids. And  
 first hand accounts tend to bear this out, that is they were  
 congruent with someone who was practicing vajroli. Interestingly this  
 practice is also considered helpful in being able to perform  
 shaktipat, so there is a practical connection there (which of course  
 also makes it much more difficult for these ladies to process their  
 trauma).

And so your points about muktananda do possibly not apply to M?
 

  And I know of a sexual tantra adeptress in the Bay Area willing to
  teach even the most unadept.
 
 Please don't forget to write.

Should I cc your wife? :)

 
 
  Maybe part of adeptness is being able to balance things out even with
  the less adept.  
 
  I mean if ALL sexual trantic adepts had to be full adepts before they
  practiced any sexual tantric practices, we have a real chicken and egg
  problem here, don't we! 
 
 Not necessarily. The tantric adepts I know have spent decades  
 learning and actually balancing their energies and kundalini--and how  
 to move it through the various conduits of the body. They have  
 detailed experiential knowledge of sexual energy and the pranas. When  
 it comes time to use or be a mudra, they already well know what is  
 necessary. In other words these are like spiritual olympic athletes.

And thus there may NOT always be utter imbalance in the equation for
some with experience are with one of less so?  If so, that contradicts
your point above -- the springboard for the last several paragrahs of
discussion. Let me guess. The Paradox of Brahman defense? :)

 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
 no_reply@ wrote:
 snip
Who are referencing besides {Tom??} from Estes Park?
   
   I am not referring to anyone named Tom, sorry.
  
  OK, Rick, AMTers. help me out. What is the name of the guy who 
was 
  in Estes Park, was innerish circle for a bit, observed M 
  discussing with pudits points of insight and commentary, freaked 
  out about it, and wrote extensively on AMT (I think) and other 
  places about it?
 
 He went by various names.  One of them was a Sanskrit
 term I can't remember, began with an SU-, I think, ended
 in an A, two or three syllables.

Sudarsha.





  He called himself Tom
 in one of his netcarnations, but there were others as well.
 He's turned up a couple of times recently on alt.m.t, I
 believe, with yet another name.








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

2006-06-05 Thread Rick Archer

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)





on 6/5/06 9:02 PM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife%40yahoogroups.com , new_morning_blank_slate 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
   Who are referencing besides {Tom??} from Estes Park?
  
  I am not referring to anyone named Tom, sorry.
 
 OK, Rick, AMTers. help me out. What is the name of the guy who was 
 in Estes Park, was innerish circle for a bit, observed M 
 discussing with pudits points of insight and commentary, freaked 
 out about it, and wrote extensively on AMT (I think) and other 
 places about it?

He went by various names. One of them was a Sanskrit
term I can't remember, began with an SU-, I think, ended
in an A, two or three syllables. He called himself Tom
in one of his netcarnations, but there were others as well.
He's turned up a couple of times recently on alt.m.t, I
believe, with yet another name.

 Tom Anderson.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
  no_reply@ wrote:
  snip
 Who are referencing besides {Tom??} from Estes Park?

I am not referring to anyone named Tom, sorry.
   
   OK, Rick, AMTers. help me out. What is the name of the guy who 
 was 
   in Estes Park, was innerish circle for a bit, observed M 
   discussing with pudits points of insight and commentary, freaked 
   out about it, and wrote extensively on AMT (I think) and other 
   places about it?
  
  He went by various names.  One of them was a Sanskrit
  term I can't remember, began with an SU-, I think, ended
  in an A, two or three syllables.
 
 Sudarsha.
 

Thanks. 
 
 
 
   He called himself Tom

YES. I thought so. 

So Vaj I was referring to the post of Tom aka Sudarsha re the guy who
freaked out when he saw M consulting with pundits. Any other sources
for your conclusion about M borrowing from pundits unatributted?  

And I fully admit borrowing: is my term, as was rob which you
clearly did not like. Does borrowing capture your thought? If not,
what verb does?

  in one of his netcarnations, but there were others as well.
  He's turned up a couple of times recently on alt.m.t, I
  believe, with yet another name.

Man, as bad as that asshole akasha :)

 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new_morning_blank_slate 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
snip
   in one of his netcarnations, but there were others as well.
   He's turned up a couple of times recently on alt.m.t, I
   believe, with yet another name.
 
 Man, as bad as that asshole akasha :)

Well, the funny thing was, he would try to change
his writing style and tone so he'd appear to be a
different person.  Maybe he got the idea from Barry,
who used to do the same back in the day.  But neither
of them were very good at it, and they couldn't
sustain the new persona for very long.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jun 5, 2006, at 9:47 PM, sparaig wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
  
   On Jun 5, 2006, at 2:55 PM, sparaig wrote:
  
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
[...]
 The word *tantra* does not necessarily infer *sexual*. Yes,  
  the TM
 mantras are tantric in origin, but not in a sexual sense.
   
Why do you say they are tantric in origin?
  
   Because they all occur in tantras and aren't found at all in the  
  Vedas.
  
 
  Hmmm... When MMY refers to the vedic, he's talking about all the  
  vedic literature as he
  defines it PLUS any techniques he associates with that liteature,  
  such as dyhan.
 
  http://ff.mum.edu/vedicreserve/
 
  That a list of mantras doesn't appear in the Veda explicitly isn't  
  any more relevant than
  the fact that the 100,000+ variations of the yoga asanas don't get  
  explicit mention either
  --or are you saying that only asanas that are described/mentioned  
  explicitly in the Vedas
  are genuine vedic asanas?
 
 Yoga asanas come from the Nath tantric siddhas. They ain't Vedic  
 either dude.


Er, I take it that Patanjali's Yoga Sutras aren't vedic either?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
snip
  Yoga asanas come from the Nath tantric siddhas. They ain't Vedic  
  either dude.
 
 Er, I take it that Patanjali's Yoga Sutras aren't vedic either?

This is the dude who said today that MMY was supposed
to have had a revelation of an Uncreated Commentary
on the Rig Veda, but that nobody had ever seen it.

That has to get some kind of prize.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Tantric Sexual Practices (was Urdhva-retas?)