[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] They come from the same source. They return us to the same source. That is what I said. And I wouldn't know a 'shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view' if it walked up and bit me. Woof! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] In Boulder, CO, many many moons ago, one of the spiritual schools there used to sponsor what they called Holy Man Jams. They'd invite supposedly realized teachers and saints who represented different traditions from all over the world and put them up on the same stage together to speak. In every one of them I ever saw, it descended into arguments within five minutes and never let up after that. For all I know, there could have been five enlightened beings up on that stage, but they were arguing like schoolkids over how to express or explain that enlightenment. Go figure. A saying that I believe I once heard: There are at least as many valid interpretations of the Veda as there are enlightened people. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I meant by my remark was that once enlightenment is reached, the spiritual tradition we have followed loses its uniqueness, and in some ways much of its value; an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. When I was a TM teacher, and for a few years after that, I said the same thing. Then I asked, Do I really know what I am talking about here, or am I just parroting unsubstantiated dogma I have heard? I quickly realized it was the latter. With some reading and reaserch, talking to others, I found there are quite large differences in views of different traditions and religions -- and representative saint's reports of states theyhave obtained. But I am not a scholar. Most scholars I have read or talked to, who devote their lives to the topic, find differences not sameness. Parroting dogma is a mental handicap. It can be overcome. Gotta agree. There are *vastly* differing descriptions of enlightenment, by the enlightened, depending upon the tradition in which they realized enlightenment. Lesha vidya, and all that. The Self may be realized, but the self still thinks very much in the same terms it's been used to thinking. In Boulder, CO, many many moons ago, one of the spiritual schools there used to sponsor what they called Holy Man Jams. They'd invite supposedly realized teachers and saints who represented different traditions from all over the world and put them up on the same stage together to speak. In every one of them I ever saw, it descended into arguments within five minutes and never let up after that. For all I know, there could have been five enlightened beings up on that stage, but they were arguing like schoolkids over how to express or explain that enlightenment. Go figure. I think the key here is supposedly realized teachers. Also, it is an important distinction between experiencing enlightenment, and 'how to express or explain that enlightenment'. The diversity [of expression] comes from the machinery of the individual physiology. The arguing you mention above though indicates ignorance to me. I've seen discussions between enlightened folk, but not the arguing. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [...] In Boulder, CO, many many moons ago, one of the spiritual schools there used to sponsor what they called Holy Man Jams. They'd invite supposedly realized teachers and saints who represented different traditions from all over the world and put them up on the same stage together to speak. In every one of them I ever saw, it descended into arguments within five minutes and never let up after that. For all I know, there could have been five enlightened beings up on that stage, but they were arguing like schoolkids over how to express or explain that enlightenment. Go figure. A saying that I believe I once heard: There are at least as many valid interpretations of the Veda as there are enlightened people. Everyone will interpret the same experience of enlightenment differently. Of course. But enlightenment itself remains the same experience as it has for eternity. I think the confusion may occur when people speak about Oneness or Unity, and to the unenlightened, this sounds like once we are enlightened, we all become the same, express ourselves the same, act the same, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just the attempt of the ignorant mind to make sense of enlightenment. After enlightenment, individual expression remains consistent, because each person's physiology remains different. Even more individual. But the experience of enlightenment remains the same for us all. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- Vaj wrote: conditioned wrong Views are spouted as if they are correct. Because they believe--without critical decision making and self-experimentation. One thing that keeps me enthusiastic about TM is the close correlation between Maharishi's descriptions and my experiences. A simple example is unbounded awareness. For years I interpreted that phrase as seeing for miles. Honestly, I was that clueless. With the siddhis I finally got it. My experience ultimately confirmed the teaching. I used to have some flavors the the siddhis, which reinforced *that* teaching. I've also noticed different results from reading or listening to the 9th and 10th mandalas of Rig Veda, which made sense out of that part of the program. (Ninth cultivated a feeling of smoothness; tenth firmed it up, like the fixer in photographic printing.) Maharishi used to be pretty good about saying, Don't take my word for it. Look at your experiences. I took him at his word, and felt I was adequately critical. And he came out validated. It's only with Maharishi's political and organizational policies that I noticed the disconnects between what he says and what happens. So Vaj, I don't quite see your implied criticism, above, of Maharishi's distorted View. That's one thing. Perhaps you'll share examples of your experiences disagreeing with MMY's View. The other thing is -- and this is the more cogent point -- I believe we manifest *whatever* we believe. If you believe space aliens are pulling our strings, you'll find plenty of evidence everywhere you look. Are you a conspiracy fantatic? No lack of evidence there, no matter whom you believe is doign the conspiring. Do you base your worldview on Biblical prophesy, as my friend the Jehovah's Witness does? Well heck -- all the evidence you need is right there in the Bible and in the pages of newspapers. I suspect this close correlation between view and evidence comes from this world being a creation of humans, not of God. (Or that humans have divine creative power, which is another teaching of MMY's, by the way.) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone will interpret the same experience of enlightenment differently. Of course. But enlightenment itself remains the same experience as it has for eternity. And you're completely convinced of that? I'm not. I have no problem with it being different for everyone who experiences it. I think the confusion may occur when people speak about Oneness or Unity, and to the unenlightened, this sounds like once we are enlightened, we all become the same, express ourselves the same, act the same, etc. I think the problem is far more fundamental than that. *Anything* you try to say about enlighten- ment is wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just the attempt of the ignorant mind to make sense of enlightenment. After enlightenment, individual expression remains consistent, because each person's physiology remains different. Even more individual. But the experience of enlightenment remains the same for us all. I might say that enlightenment itself (as opposed to the individual minds that experience it) may remain the same, but that the *experience* of that eternal, non-localized state may be (and possibly is) completely different for every localized being who ever experiences it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone will interpret the same experience of enlightenment differently. Of course. But enlightenment itself remains the same experience as it has for eternity. And you're completely convinced of that? I'm not. I have no problem with it being different for everyone who experiences it. I think the confusion may occur when people speak about Oneness or Unity, and to the unenlightened, this sounds like once we are enlightened, we all become the same, express ourselves the same, act the same, etc. I think the problem is far more fundamental than that. *Anything* you try to say about enlighten- ment is wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just the attempt of the ignorant mind to make sense of enlightenment. After enlightenment, individual expression remains consistent, because each person's physiology remains different. Even more individual. But the experience of enlightenment remains the same for us all. I might say that enlightenment itself (as opposed to the individual minds that experience it) may remain the same, but that the *experience* of that eternal, non-localized state may be (and possibly is) completely different for every localized being who ever experiences it. Hi, yeah, I think we are saying the same thing. Like looking out at the ocean from the shore. You will see it in some different way than I will, and we will each describe it differently, but the ocean remains the same, and there will probably be a great degree of commonality in our different descriptions. I am *not* trying to 'plain vanilla' or norm out the experience of enlightenment, though. I had said earlier that once enlightenment occurs, we actually become *more* clearly defined as individuals. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone will interpret the same experience of enlightenment differently. Of course. But enlightenment itself remains the same experience as it has for eternity. And you're completely convinced of that? I'm not. I have no problem with it being different for everyone who experiences it. I think the confusion may occur when people speak about Oneness or Unity, and to the unenlightened, this sounds like once we are enlightened, we all become the same, express ourselves the same, act the same, etc. I think the problem is far more fundamental than that. *Anything* you try to say about enlighten- ment is wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just the attempt of the ignorant mind to make sense of enlightenment. After enlightenment, individual expression remains consistent, because each person's physiology remains different. Even more individual. But the experience of enlightenment remains the same for us all. I might say that enlightenment itself (as opposed to the individual minds that experience it) may remain the same, but that the *experience* of that eternal, non-localized state may be (and possibly is) completely different for every localized being who ever experiences it. Since TC isnt' an experience in the usual sense of the word, it seems plausible that any further state based on TC wouldn't be experiential in the way that other things we might talk about are. therefore, trying to talk about similarities and differences makes no sense -- or at least, may not be appropriate. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone will interpret the same experience of enlightenment differently. Of course. But enlightenment itself remains the same experience as it has for eternity. And you're completely convinced of that? I'm not. I have no problem with it being different for everyone who experiences it. I think the confusion may occur when people speak about Oneness or Unity, and to the unenlightened, this sounds like once we are enlightened, we all become the same, express ourselves the same, act the same, etc. I think the problem is far more fundamental than that. *Anything* you try to say about enlighten- ment is wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just the attempt of the ignorant mind to make sense of enlightenment. After enlightenment, individual expression remains consistent, because each person's physiology remains different. Even more individual. But the experience of enlightenment remains the same for us all. I might say that enlightenment itself (as opposed to the individual minds that experience it) may remain the same, but that the *experience* of that eternal, non-localized state may be (and possibly is) completely different for every localized being who ever experiences it. Since TC isnt' an experience in the usual sense of the word, it seems plausible that any further state based on TC wouldn't be experiential in the way that other things we might talk about are. therefore, trying to talk about similarities and differences makes no sense -- or at least, may not be appropriate. It is like that phrase in the Gita speaking about the Absolute, about how you can't burn it, or quench it or really do anything to it at all. And so, yes, it is experienced, but as non-changing, not relative. How we *express* ourselves about it, or explain it, is always going to be different, because the senses, like sound, necessarily operate in the relative area of life. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since TC isnt' an experience in the usual sense of the word, it seems plausible that any further state based on TC wouldn't be experiential in the way that other things we might talk about are. therefore, trying to talk about similarities and differences makes no sense -- or at least, may not be appropriate. I like the Piaget model here to explain what can't be explained! Again, there is such a profound qualitative shift in self/world from waking state to Realization that it is almost impossible to talk about in anyway that'll make sense from a waking state perspective. I'm not trying to retreat into a You gotta be there to get it perspective, but you gotta be there to get it. Like Buddha after his realization. Initially, he thought that it would be impossible to even talk about this to others in waking state. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 16, 2005, at 8:41 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote: The other thing is -- and this is the more cogent point -- I believe we manifest *whatever* we believe. I believe you answered your own question. Come to think of it, another theme that MMY has hammered is just this -- we create our own realities. After I posted the remark above that we manifest *whatever* we believe, I asked myself, what about science? Science does suggest there are natural laws that limit the extent to which I can manipulate creation, even if I can fool myself into believing what science disproves. I may be able to convince myself there's ample evidence for a given worldview, but good science can determine whether my anecdotal evidence is valid. So, two things: actual physical manifestation, and magical thinking. When Dana Sawyer says precept determines percept, he's suggesting these notions of enlightenment are magical thinking -- constructs of the mind. When you, Vaj, say View determines outcome, you're referring more to a concrete outcome, a real thing, as opposed to a construct of the mind. Yes? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Gee, Patrick, I 'm crushed to see how quickly you've forgotten process and product are one. L B S Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, L B Shriver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Gee, Patrick, I 'm crushed to see how quickly you've forgotten process and product are one. L B S I think 'process and product or process percipitates product or process produces pupil or process pre-determines perception process predisposes perception are all good angles that may account for quite different ahcievments and subsequent views by spiritual aspirants. The dogmatic, knee-jerk view is many paths, one mountain, while the reality may be many paths, many moutains (coined by LBS?) Regardless, all such are opinions without some field work, experience in various traditions' practices, or at least review of current scholarshipint he matter (which I understand is vast). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everyone will interpret the same experience of enlightenment differently. Of course. But enlightenment itself remains the same experience as it has for eternity. And you're completely convinced of that? I'm not. I have no problem with it being different for everyone who experiences it. I think the confusion may occur when people speak about Oneness or Unity, and to the unenlightened, this sounds like once we are enlightened, we all become the same, express ourselves the same, act the same, etc. I think the problem is far more fundamental than that. *Anything* you try to say about enlighten- ment is wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. This is just the attempt of the ignorant mind to make sense of enlightenment. After enlightenment, individual expression remains consistent, because each person's physiology remains different. Even more individual. But the experience of enlightenment remains the same for us all. I might say that enlightenment itself (as opposed to the individual minds that experience it) may remain the same, but that the *experience* of that eternal, non-localized state may be (and possibly is) completely different for every localized being who ever experiences it. Since TC isnt' an experience in the usual sense of the word, it seems plausible that any further state based on TC wouldn't be experiential in the way that other things we might talk about are. therefore, trying to talk about similarities and differences makes no sense -- or at least, may not be appropriate. It is like that phrase in the Gita speaking about the Absolute, about how you can't burn it, or quench it or really do anything to it at all. And so, yes, it is experienced, but as non-changing, not relative. How we *express* ourselves about it, or explain it, is always going to be different, because the senses, like sound, necessarily operate in the relative area of life. IS there an experiencer when experiencer, experience and process of experience are merged? MMY and many other people like to say yes, and perhaps that's the easiest way of getting the point across, but perhaps no is equally valid, and merely cuts short any possibility of discussion, no matter how futile. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since TC isnt' an experience in the usual sense of the word, it seems plausible that any further state based on TC wouldn't be experiential in the way that other things we might talk about are. therefore, trying to talk about similarities and differences makes no sense -- or at least, may not be appropriate. I like the Piaget model here to explain what can't be explained! Again, there is such a profound qualitative shift in self/world from waking state to Realization that it is almost impossible to talk about in anyway that'll make sense from a waking state perspective. I'm not trying to retreat into a You gotta be there to get it perspective, but you gotta be there to get it. Like Buddha after his realization. Initially, he thought that it would be impossible to even talk about this to others in waking state. Some would say that he never did. The map is not the territory and all that. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your mind is never going to get him [MMY]. Never, ever. Amen. With all due respect and pardons, but that seems quite an odd thing to say. Especially from (no)one proclaiming no self. Who / what is Maharishi? The same as we all experience in or out of meditation. Effulgence, for want of a better inadequate label or name. What is the personality, mind, intellect of Maharishi? Its a hallowed out, crystaline matrix, a unique transparent tapestry woven from the residue of thousands of lives, training, teachers, culturing, habits, experiences, karmas, sadhanas, tapas, sacrafices, blunders, deaths, births, brothers, sisters, pets, hunger, sex, wives, children, wars, peace, oppulence, wandering, seclusion, fame, poverty, shame, dharma, joy, sadness, dispair and elation. What does this tapestry have to do with the Effulgent? Nothing. Other than being a vessel for the Effulgent to flow through. As all vessels, you and me, are. So there is Effulgence, and there is a personality. One of billions of personalities cultured over the eons. That a particular personality has quirks, is odd, misbehaves sometimes -- like Dr. Strangelove's arm trying to chock him -- its all reaction. Reaction of that tapestry, with all its quirky embedded designs, with the day to day ticking of LIFE and experience as presented, while EFFULGENCE flows through it all. What is hard to understand here? Good Morning. So, you've narrowed your understanding down to the roughly six and half billion people currently on the planet, all of whom share in common what you have written about your mind's understanding of Maharishi. Are you able to be more specific? How odd that you feel 6 billion people are hallowed out, crystaline matrix, a unique transparent tapestry woven from the residue of thousands of lives .. (as in roasted samskaras) while living the fullness of effulgence (not experiences while the samskaras are lively). I guess the currency of liberation is so low today, anything and everything passses as it. OK- you hadn't made the part about the samskaras being roasted and not lively clear in your previous posting. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your mind is never going to get him [MMY]. Never, ever. Amen. With all due respect and pardons, but that seems quite an odd thing to say. Especially from (no)one proclaiming no self. Who / what is Maharishi? The same as we all experience in or out of meditation. Effulgence, for want of a better inadequate label or name. What is the personality, mind, intellect of Maharishi? Its a hallowed out, crystaline matrix, a unique transparent tapestry woven from the residue of thousands of lives, training, teachers, culturing, habits, experiences, karmas, sadhanas, tapas, sacrafices, blunders, deaths, births, brothers, sisters, pets, hunger, sex, wives, children, wars, peace, oppulence, wandering, seclusion, fame, poverty, shame, dharma, joy, sadness, dispair and elation. What does this tapestry have to do with the Effulgent? Nothing. Other than being a vessel for the Effulgent to flow through. As all vessels, you and me, are. So there is Effulgence, and there is a personality. One of billions of personalities cultured over the eons. That a particular personality has quirks, is odd, misbehaves sometimes -- like Dr. Strangelove's arm trying to chock him -- its all reaction. Reaction of that tapestry, with all its quirky embedded designs, with the day to day ticking of LIFE and experience as presented, while EFFULGENCE flows through it all. What is hard to understand here? Good Morning. So, you've narrowed your understanding down to the roughly six and half billion people currently on the planet, all of whom share in common what you have written about your mind's understanding of Maharishi. Are you able to be more specific? How odd that you feel 6 billion people are hallowed out, crystaline matrix, a unique transparent tapestry woven from the residue of thousands of lives .. (as in roasted samskaras) while living the fullness of effulgence (not experiences while the samskaras are lively). I guess the currency of liberation is so low today, anything and everything passses as it. OK- you hadn't made the part about the samskaras being roasted and not lively clear in your previous posting. Perhaps I am too prone to the poetic. I thought Its a HOLLOWED OUT, CRYSTALINE matrix, a unique TRANSPARENT tapestry woven from the RESIDUE of thousands of lives, ... made the empty shell idea of roasted smaskaras clear. Perhaps its an experiential difference. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I am too prone to the poetic. I thought Its a HOLLOWED OUT, CRYSTALINE matrix, a unique TRANSPARENT tapestry woven from the RESIDUE of thousands of lives, ... made the empty shell idea of roasted smaskaras clear. Perhaps its an experiential difference. What the f**k are you talking about, Grasshopper? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I am too prone to the poetic. I thought Its a HOLLOWED OUT, CRYSTALINE matrix, a unique TRANSPARENT tapestry woven from the RESIDUE of thousands of lives, ... made the empty shell idea of roasted smaskaras clear. Perhaps its an experiential difference. What the f**k are you talking about, Grasshopper? Apparently nothing you can related to. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I am too prone to the poetic. I thought Its a HOLLOWED OUT, CRYSTALINE matrix, a unique TRANSPARENT tapestry woven from the RESIDUE of thousands of lives, ... made the empty shell idea of roasted smaskaras clear. Perhaps its an experiential difference. What the f**k are you talking about, Grasshopper? Apparently nothing you can relate to. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I am too prone to the poetic. I thought Its a HOLLOWED OUT, CRYSTALINE matrix, a unique TRANSPARENT tapestry woven from the RESIDUE of thousands of lives, ... made the empty shell idea of roasted smaskaras clear. Perhaps its an experiential difference. What the f**k are you talking about, Grasshopper? If I may, anon or Akasha's, and Vaj's insistence on keeping discussions of enlightenment both intellectually consistent, available to Socratic method, and in Vaj's case, adhering to some as yet unnamed tradition, are expressed in the emotion of 'the seeker's burn'. It is not hostility per se in Akasha's case directed at anyone in particular. He is just pissed off and frustrated in general that his enlightenment eludes him, and chooses to take it out on anyone who brings up the topic. I can relate, and I'm sure you can too, Peter. Before such a breakthrough is a lot of frustration for something so tantalizingly close and yet apparently unreachable. Akasha chooses to take refuge in his intellect, to explain away much of what you and I and Tom (and Rory, when he was posting) say as inconsistent with his head trip of 'enlightenment'. As for Vaj, he has studied much about enlightenment, and again is full of 'Thou shalt' and 'Thou shalt not' stuff from various teachers. He doesn't understand that enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. Btw, did you catch Vaj's reference about offlist discussions with Akasha on demonic possession? Well, I guess 'the devil is in the details', as they say... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
Its sort of sad people are so vested in explaining other people's motives and experiences. I suggest you take the words of a wise man to heart. = All valid observations and insights that you need to temper your own experience with, not deconstruct the validity of another's experience. You can only talk about what you experience, not another. And certainly don't expect social consensus with someone like MMY. Your mind is never going to get him. Never, ever. Amen. DR PS == --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I am too prone to the poetic. I thought Its a HOLLOWED OUT, CRYSTALINE matrix, a unique TRANSPARENT tapestry woven from the RESIDUE of thousands of lives, ... made the empty shell idea of roasted smaskaras clear. Perhaps its an experiential difference. What the f**k are you talking about, Grasshopper? If I may, anon or Akasha's, and Vaj's insistence on keeping discussions of enlightenment both intellectually consistent, available to Socratic method, and in Vaj's case, adhering to some as yet unnamed tradition, are expressed in the emotion of 'the seeker's burn'. It is not hostility per se in Akasha's case directed at anyone in particular. He is just pissed off and frustrated in general that his enlightenment eludes him, and chooses to take it out on anyone who brings up the topic. I can relate, and I'm sure you can too, Peter. Before such a breakthrough is a lot of frustration for something so tantalizingly close and yet apparently unreachable. Akasha chooses to take refuge in his intellect, to explain away much of what you and I and Tom (and Rory, when he was posting) say as inconsistent with his head trip of 'enlightenment'. As for Vaj, he has studied much about enlightenment, and again is full of 'Thou shalt' and 'Thou shalt not' stuff from various teachers. He doesn't understand that enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. Btw, did you catch Vaj's reference about offlist discussions with Akasha on demonic possession? Well, I guess 'the devil is in the details', as they say... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I am too prone to the poetic. I thought Its a HOLLOWED OUT, CRYSTALINE matrix, a unique TRANSPARENT tapestry woven from the RESIDUE of thousands of lives, ... made the empty shell idea of roasted smaskaras clear. Perhaps its an experiential difference. What the f**k are you talking about, Grasshopper? Apparently nothing you can relate to. Perhaps its not in your experience, but with time and grace, there is a sense that the body, mind, intellect and all become HOLLOW and empty. They appear to become more TRANSPARENT, as if CRYSTALINE. Their functioning seems, as a poetic metaphor, like a RESIDUE -- though its a complex pattern like a TAPESTRY. This appears to happen as those knots within our soul (another poetic phrase) loosen and unravel. Like a know in a rope, when it is untied, it does not exist, But what is left is some small creasing of the rope. As knots unravel, there is that growing sense of being HOLLOW AND EMPTY. But the crease from the past knots causee enough dust to form on the otherwise transparent Crystaline form or body, mind intellect and all that remains. The dust creates some defraction of both Effulgence and the light of everyday life events. This light defraction (again a poetic metaphor) gives the appearance of the former mundane earthy body, mind and intellect, though its is just a mirage. Those knots, in classical literature, are called samskaras. I hope this helps. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps I am too prone to the poetic. I thought Its a HOLLOWED OUT, CRYSTALINE matrix, a unique TRANSPARENT tapestry woven from the RESIDUE of thousands of lives, ... made the empty shell idea of roasted smaskaras clear. Perhaps its an experiential difference. What the f**k are you talking about, Grasshopper? Apparently nothing you can relate to. Perhaps its not in your experience, but with time and grace, there is a sense that the body, mind, intellect and all become HOLLOW and empty. They appear to become more TRANSPARENT, as if CRYSTALINE. Their functioning seems, as a poetic metaphor, like a RESIDUE -- though its a complex pattern like a TAPESTRY. This appears to happen as those knots within our soul (another poetic phrase) loosen and unravel. Like a know in a rope, when it is untied, it does not exist, But what is left is some small creasing of the rope. As knots unravel, there is that growing sense of being HOLLOW AND EMPTY. But the crease from the past knots causee enough dust to form on the otherwise transparent Crystaline form or body, mind intellect and all that remains. The dust creates some defraction of both Effulgence and the light of everyday life events. This light defraction (again a poetic metaphor) gives the appearance of the former mundane earthy body, mind and intellect, though its is just a mirage. Those knots, in classical literature, are called samskaras. I hope this helps. - With the poetic allusions clarified, perhaps the original post makes more sense to those prone to literal readings. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/81889 Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever. DR. PS Who / what is Maharishi? The same as we all experience in or out of meditation. Effulgence, for want of a better inadequate label or name. What is the personality, mind, intellect of Maharishi? Its a hallowed out, crystaline matrix, a unique transparent tapestry woven from the residue of thousands of lives, training, teachers, culturing, habits, experiences, karmas, sadhanas, tapas, sacrafices, blunders, deaths, births, brothers, sisters, pets, hunger, sex, wives, children, wars, peace, oppulence, wandering, seclusion, fame, poverty, shame, dharma, joy, sadness, dispair and elation. What does this tapestry have to do with the Effulgent? Nothing. Other than being a vessel for the Effulgent to flow through. As all vessels, you and me, are. So there is Effulgence, and there is a personality. One of billions of personalities cultured over the eons. That a particular personality has quirks, is odd, misbehaves sometimes -- like Dr. Strangelove's arm trying to chock him -- its all reaction. Reaction of that tapestry, with all its quirky embedded designs, with the day to day ticking of LIFE and experience as presented, while EFFULGENCE flows through it all. What is hard to understand here? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. And your detailed study of enlightenment traditions include which cultures? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip He is just pissed off and frustrated in general that his enlightenment eludes him, and chooses to take it out on anyone who brings up the topic. I can relate, and I'm sure you can too, Peter. Before such a breakthrough is a lot of frustration for something so tantalizingly close and yet apparently unreachable. You know, Jim, it's entirely possible to be pissed off and frustrated with what presumably awakened people say about enlightenment *without* also being frustrated and pissed off that one has not yet achieved it oneself. Until one is enlightened, what the presumably awakened say about it is confusing, by the very nature of the beast. But frustration on the part of the ignorant with that confusion may not be the same as frustration that they are not yet enlightened. snip Btw, did you catch Vaj's reference about offlist discussions with Akasha on demonic possession? Well, I guess 'the devil is in the details', as they say... Vaj is fond of mentioning his offlist discussions in his public posts. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
Its also entirely possible that some people simply are not pissed off. Or even frustrated. But for Jim perhaps, its a strange unbelievable phenomenon, not having experienced it apparently. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip He is just pissed off and frustrated in general that his enlightenment eludes him, and chooses to take it out on anyone who brings up the topic. I can relate, and I'm sure you can too, Peter. Before such a breakthrough is a lot of frustration for something so tantalizingly close and yet apparently unreachable. You know, Jim, it's entirely possible to be pissed off and frustrated with what presumably awakened people say about enlightenment *without* also being frustrated and pissed off that one has not yet achieved it oneself. Until one is enlightened, what the presumably awakened say about it is confusing, by the very nature of the beast. But frustration on the part of the ignorant with that confusion may not be the same as frustration that they are not yet enlightened. snip Btw, did you catch Vaj's reference about offlist discussions with Akasha on demonic possession? Well, I guess 'the devil is in the details', as they say... Vaj is fond of mentioning his offlist discussions in his public posts. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] He is just pissed off and frustrated in general that his enlightenment eludes him, and chooses to take it out on anyone who brings up the topic. I can relate, and I'm sure you can too, Peter. Before such a breakthrough is a lot of frustration for something so tantalizingly close and yet apparently unreachable. The imputing of others motives, the deconstruction of others' experiences is getting fascinating on this board. Like a soap opera of vindictiveness. Even though Dr. Stuphen, apparently the most educated on this board in these matters, says that is impossible to do correctly. Yet, ignoring such wise counsel, some still seem obsessed with doing so. A more subtle thing appears to present itself. The enlightenment story. Some appear to claim it as a means to differentiate themselves from others. So many tribes, races, religions, creeds, nations and movements have done this in the past and present. I am in (arbitrry) Circle A and you are not. You are not one of us. We are special. Who knows if this is what is going on in Jim's mind, but there appears to be a pattern of such in any number of posters. Just an observation. If this pattern does exist, it seems strange to me. While I personaly think enlightement is a bogus and misused label, it appears that adherents (worshipers to such label idols?) proclaim oneness amongst us all. Yet an apparent (observable) tendency to differentiate us from them. All facilitated by the enlightenment story. And other tools. While I am not sayng walking the talk is a sign of so called enlightenment (btw, please at least first define your enlightenment tradition if you are going to use the term), not walking ones talk would seem a weak sign of so called enlightenment. But then again, Enlightenment is a Big Red Popsicle!, so anything goes. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin snip his enlightenment eludes him A sign of great writing is you can read it over several times and find great new gems. Jim, I admire your enlightenment tradition, what ever it is, for such unique view of enlightenment, distinct from any other enlightenemnt tradition I have encountered. In fours short words, its almost aphorismic, to both assign posseionship of enlightenment to an individual his enlightenment and the implication that it is an individual who is enlightened, enlightenment eludes him is in such stark contrast to other traditions, I have to stand up and cheer that you are revealing some new yet uncovered, distinct description of the multi-cultural vast diversity in the use of the term enlightenemnt. It certainly supports the thesis that many different cultures and traditions experience many different things that they paradoxically all call the same thing enlightenement. While being steeped in your enlightenment tradtion, you may, or may not, be aware of how other traditions use the same term -- but with clearly a vastly different experience attached. For example many eastern traditions hold that possessionship of an enlightened status makes no sense whatso ever. The phrase would never enter their lexicon because (they claim) that is not the experience. In their world, there is no possessor, no experiencer, just the commonality of all existence that pervades ones awareness. And they go on to hold, that an individual never becomes enlightened. Thus enlightenment eluding an individual again would be non-sensical to these classical eastern traditions. It is the commonality of all existence that awakens unto itself. It has nothng to do with the individual. Some such traditions even hold that any sense of individuality is an illusion. So keep up the good work in reporting these utterly unique descriptions of the term enlightenemnt, from your enlightenment tradition, and the correspondng implied experiences that are so utterly different and unique compared to classical enlightenment traditions. By the way, what is your enlightenment tradition? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin snip his enlightenment eludes him A sign of great writing is you can read it over several times and find great new gems. Jim, I admire your enlightenment tradition, what ever it is, for such unique view of enlightenment, distinct from any other enlightenemnt tradition I have encountered. In fours short words, its almost aphorismic, to both assign posseionship of enlightenment to an individual his enlightenment and the implication that it is an individual who is enlightened, enlightenment eludes him is in such stark contrast to other traditions, I have to stand up and cheer that you are revealing some new yet uncovered, distinct description of the multi-cultural vast diversity in the use of the term enlightenemnt. It certainly supports the thesis that many different cultures and traditions experience many different things that they paradoxically all call the same thing enlightenement. While being steeped in your enlightenment tradtion, you may, or may not, be aware of how other traditions use the same term -- but with clearly a vastly different experience attached. For example many eastern traditions hold that possessionship of an enlightened status makes no sense whatso ever. The phrase would never enter their lexicon because (they claim) that is not the experience. In their world, there is no possessor, no experiencer, just the commonality of all existence that pervades ones awareness. Absolutely correct that enlightenment can never be possessed in an absolute sense. What I was getting at was the process of becoming enlightened, which is something every individual who wishes to do so, takes accountability for, simply in the way they go about it. I am using the phrase 'enlightenment eludes him' in that context. Also, although it is true that an enlightened person is said to have no individuality, or as I prefer it, that the individual and Infinity are indistiguishable, for the benefit of being practical and operating in this world of relativity, and describing relationships in a common sense way, I use 'I' when referring to my experiences, states of consciousness, etc. And they go on to hold, that an individual never becomes enlightened. Thus enlightenment eluding an individual again would be non- sensical to these classical eastern traditions. It is the commonality of all existence that awakens unto itself. It has nothng to do with the individual. Some such traditions even hold that any sense of individuality is an illusion. Please see above. I get the distinction you are making. It is valid to an intellectual understanding of where we 'belong' both pre and post enlightenment. However I am operating and expressing myself in a relative sense, although it is absolutely true as you point out that I as an individual no longer exist in the conventional sense. So keep up the good work in reporting these utterly unique descriptions of the term enlightenemnt, from your enlightenment tradition, and the correspondng implied experiences that are so utterly different and unique compared to classical enlightenment traditions. By the way, what is your enlightenment tradition? Honestly don't understand the question. TM along with self reflection and one pointed desire for enlightenment works for me. Your personal tradition may be different. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. That is my experience as well. It's as if the myth of enlightenment that members of a tradition grew up with becomes by default the language they use to express the inexpressible. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. I have spent time with Yaqui shamans and read a bit of Native American traditions, and I have to agree with you. The quest for power, yes. The quest for altered states of consciousness, yes. The quest for an impeccable life, yes. But it's tough to find an analogue for enlightenment as we know it from Eastern traditions. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I have to agree. That which one expects seems to color awakening into the unexpected. The experience it what it is, but when it comes to describing or interpreting it, one's previously-established view (carried over from and structured in ignorance) seems to become the default. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. I don't feel any cognitive dissonance, but that may be because I've had occasional flashes of enlightened states, *and* I've had decades of indoctrination into trying to anticipate and explain such experiences. The anticipation was fruitless; I was waiting for what was already present. And all of the explanations fell flat, because they didn't do justice to the experience. Close, but no cigar. Still, when you're discussing cigars, you need a language to express the differences between a true Havana and a cheap Baltimore Stogie. Even though *no one* you speak to will ever under- stand the difference until they've fired up both. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- TurquoiseB wrote: Gillam wrote: View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I have to agree. That which one expects seems to color awakening into the unexpected. The experience it what it is, but when it comes to describing or interpreting it, one's previously-established view (carried over from and structured in ignorance) seems to become the default. That said, I don't much hear Jim and Tom and Peter and such lot talking in Maharishi's idioms. For example, this whole notion of losing a personal self was totally absent from any understanding I ever had of the Science of Creative Intelligence. So it's the same old story - on the one hand, on the other hand. Jaimini cricket. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Even amongs Hindus. Non-dual and dualist advaita traditions. Vaishnavas -- tending to always have some distinction between themselves and Godhead -- even in the attainment of the highest lokas, vs. non-dualist shaivites. And Buddists are hardly one school. Theravada, Mahayana, Tibetian. And great differences in schools of understanding and views even within these great rivers of buddhism. And Islam. Shunni, Shi-ite, Sufi? And the jains. And the farsi zoriasterists of bombay. And so many christian sects and understandings of perfection. How many extinct traditions over the last 10,000 or more years. Far more than exist today, I would venture. To say that all enlightenement tradions are the same must be from someone with their head in the sand. (or other places the sun don't shine.) That is my experience as well. It's as if the myth of enlightenment that members of a tradition grew up with becomes by default the language they use to express the inexpressible. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. I have spent time with Yaqui shamans and read a bit of Native American traditions, and I have to agree with you. The quest for power, yes. The quest for altered states of consciousness, yes. The quest for an impeccable life, yes. But it's tough to find an analogue for enlightenment as we know it from Eastern traditions. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I have to agree. That which one expects seems to color awakening into the unexpected. The experience it what it is, but when it comes to describing or interpreting it, one's previously-established view (carried over from and structured in ignorance) seems to become the default. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. I don't feel any cognitive dissonance, but that may be because I've had occasional flashes of enlightened states, *and* I've had decades of indoctrination into trying to anticipate and explain such experiences. The anticipation was fruitless; I was waiting for what was already present. And all of the explanations fell flat, because they didn't do justice to the experience. Close, but no cigar. Still, when you're discussing cigars, you need a language to express the differences between a true Havana and a cheap Baltimore Stogie. Even though *no one* you speak to will ever under- stand the difference until they've fired up both. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- TurquoiseB wrote: Gillam wrote: View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I have to agree. That which one expects seems to color awakening into the unexpected. The experience it what it is, but when it comes to describing or interpreting it, one's previously-established view (carried over from and structured in ignorance) seems to become the default. That said, I don't much hear Jim and Tom and Peter and such lot talking in Maharishi's idioms. For example, this whole notion of losing a personal self was totally absent from any understanding I ever had of the Science of Creative Intelligence. Yes, their languange and conceptual frameworks appear to be directly out the books they read and satsangs they attended (off the program ??), such as Ramana, Papaji, etc .. and a good dash of new-agism. Of course Rory, a former book store owner, read far more bboks so look for more varied concepts and language. And charter Theopsophy book club member. So it's the same old story - on the one hand, on the other hand. Jaimini cricket. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- TurquoiseB wrote: Gillam wrote: View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I have to agree. That which one expects seems to color awakening into the unexpected. The experience it what it is, but when it comes to describing or interpreting it, one's previously-established view (carried over from and structured in ignorance) seems to become the default. That said, I don't much hear Jim and Tom and Peter and such lot talking in Maharishi's idioms. For example, this whole notion of losing a personal self was totally absent from any understanding I ever had of the Science of Creative Intelligence. Yep. I actually know a lot of Maharishi's expressions but try to put things in the way I experience them. Period. Does that end up inadvertently mimicking someone else's explanations or language? I suppose so...Gotta start somewhere, and not be overly concerned about the consequences... Yes, their languange and conceptual frameworks appear to be directly out the books they read and satsangs they attended (off the program ??), such as Ramana, Papaji, etc .. and a good dash of new-agism. Of course Rory, a former book store owner, read far more bboks so look for more varied concepts and language. And charter Theopsophy book club member. So it's the same old story - on the one hand, on the other hand. Jaimini cricket. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- jim_flanegin wrote: Gillam wrote: That said, I don't much hear Jim and Tom and Peter and such lot talking in Maharishi's idioms. For example, this whole notion of losing a personal self was totally absent from any understanding I ever had of the Science of Creative Intelligence. Yep. I actually know a lot of Maharishi's expressions but try to put things in the way I experience them. Period. Does that end up inadvertently mimicking someone else's explanations or language? I suppose so...Gotta start somewhere, and not be overly concerned about the consequences... No, what I'm saying is, I haven't heard much TM speak as you or others here describe experiences. You cool. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Uh-oh, I see another Paradox! Just ample warning for those that wish to read no further... Spiritual traditions are all useful, and thank God there are a lot of them, to serve us all in such diversity. What I meant by my remark was that once enlightenment is reached, the spiritual tradition we have followed loses its uniqueness, and in some ways much of its value; an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. Infinity is Infinity is Infinity. The language may be different, but the true value of such labels are for the unenlightened to differentiate a personal set of actions that they are most comfortable with, to speed them on their way. Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. Before enlightenment, with the attention primarily on the individual self, seeking enlightenment is much more a linear activity, moving from here to there. After enlightenment, with the attention non- localized as a natural state, answers are found everywhere; anywhere the attention is placed really, therefore rendering the strictures and structure of traditions not very important. So, before enlightenment, a definite path is critical in my opinion for speediest achievement. Afterwards, as in every other area of life, there is greater freedom. Thanks! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: Gillam wrote: That said, I don't much hear Jim and Tom and Peter and such lot talking in Maharishi's idioms. For example, this whole notion of losing a personal self was totally absent from any understanding I ever had of the Science of Creative Intelligence. Yep. I actually know a lot of Maharishi's expressions but try to put things in the way I experience them. Period. Does that end up inadvertently mimicking someone else's explanations or language? I suppose so...Gotta start somewhere, and not be overly concerned about the consequences... No, what I'm saying is, I haven't heard much TM speak as you or others here describe experiences. You cool. Thank you. Well here is an expression of Maharishi's that I always thought was his most profound- chewed on it for decades: the world is as you are; live unbounded awareness. Just beautiful. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Drugs Don't Discriminate. Get help for yourself or someone you know. http://us.click.yahoo.com/0I.OUB/ZbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Uh-oh, I see another Paradox! Just ample warning for those that wish to read no further... Spiritual traditions are all useful, and thank God there are a lot of them, to serve us all in such diversity. What I meant by my remark was that once enlightenment is reached, the spiritual tradition we have followed loses its uniqueness, and in some ways much of its value; an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. Says who? Your intuition? Precisely which enlightened Buddhists, Hindus and Sufis did you talk to regarding this. Or are you just spouting off platitudes that sound good. Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, And you are quite familiar with all the ways of all the spiritual traditions? Again, it sounds like feel-good platitudes, nothing actually based on studying such traditions and talking to their proponents. Tell us about the aghori and nath practices you have accessed since becoming self-proclaimed enlightened? so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. Sounds like a MUM first year student doing sing-song. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Uh-oh, I see another Paradox! Just ample warning for those that wish to read no further... Spiritual traditions are all useful, and thank God there are a lot of them, to serve us all in such diversity. What I meant by my remark was that once enlightenment is reached, the spiritual tradition we have followed loses its uniqueness, and in some ways much of its value; an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. When I was a TM teacher, and for a few years after that, I said the same thing. Then I asked, Do I really know what I am talking about here, or am I just parroting unsubstantiated dogma I have heard? I quickly realized it was the latter. With some reading and reaserch, talking to others, I found there are quite large differences in views of different traditions and religions -- and representative saint's reports of states theyhave obtained. But I am not a scholar. Most scholars I have read or talked to, who devote their lives to the topic, find differences not sameness. Parroting dogma is a mental handicap. It can be overcome. Says who? Your intuition? Precisely which enlightened Buddhists, Hindus and Sufis did you talk to regarding this. Or are you just spouting off platitudes that sound good. Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, And you are quite familiar with all the ways of all the spiritual traditions? Again, it sounds like feel-good platitudes, nothing actually based on studying such traditions and talking to their proponents. Tell us about the aghori and nath practices you have accessed since becoming self-proclaimed enlightened? so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. Sounds like a MUM first year student doing sing-song. Yup, reading right off some big colorful chart. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/YbEMxA/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, snip so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. I'm feeling better already. lurk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Uh-oh, I see another Paradox! Just ample warning for those that wish to read no further... Spiritual traditions are all useful, and thank God there are a lot of them, to serve us all in such diversity. What I meant by my remark was that once enlightenment is reached, the spiritual tradition we have followed loses its uniqueness, and in some ways much of its value; an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. Says who? Your intuition? Precisely which enlightened Buddhists, Hindus and Sufis did you talk to regarding this. Or are you just spouting off platitudes that sound good. I looked up platitude: a banal, trite, or stale remark. Anyone that knows me personally knows that I am just about anti-platitude. What is the value of spouting off platitudes? as they are from memory, exactly as you describe; to make one feel good. But the difference is they are mood-making. I already expressed myself regarding mood-making. You also asked, 'says who'? Good question. Do you have an answer? Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, And you are quite familiar with all the ways of all the spiritual traditions? Again, it sounds like feel-good platitudes, nothing actually based on studying such traditions and talking to their proponents. Tell us about the aghori and nath practices you have accessed since becoming self-proclaimed enlightened? so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. Sounds like a MUM first year student doing sing-song. Oh well. Perhaps you can say it better? I try mightily to write well, and sometimes I fail. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, snip so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. I'm feeling better already. lurk Yes, dogmatic fantasies are so uplifting, and SUCH a joy!. Ask Jim to access Rinzai Obaku sects and tell you of his access of their their practices and his direct experience of what they decribe as higher states and how its joyously all the same as his own personal experience. Its so blissful. Even the delusions are Brahman. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, snip so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. I'm feeling better already. lurk Sorry, but I honestly don't believe you... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Need Help? Get Help! Tools and Strategies for Healthy Drug-Free Living/a. http://us.click.yahoo.com/wI.OUB/dbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, snip so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. I'm feeling better already. lurk Yes, dogmatic fantasies are so uplifting, and SUCH a joy!. I disagree. Ask Jim to access Rinzai Obaku sects and tell you of his access of their their practices and his direct experience of what they decribe as higher states and how its joyously all the same as his own personal experience. If you explain carefully what they are, I'll give you my opinion. Its so blissful. Really? Even the delusions are Brahman. Who's delusions? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Uh-oh, I see another Paradox! Just ample warning for those that wish to read no further... Spiritual traditions are all useful, and thank God there are a lot of them, to serve us all in such diversity. What I meant by my remark was that once enlightenment is reached, the spiritual tradition we have followed loses its uniqueness, and in some ways much of its value; an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. Says who? Your intuition? Precisely which enlightened Buddhists, Hindus and Sufis did you talk to regarding this. Or are you just spouting off platitudes that sound good. I looked up platitude: sorry you had to look it up. A comment on American education. a banal, trite, or stale remark. Anyone that knows me personally knows that I am just about anti-platitude. I only know you from your writing and the above is surely not clear from that vantage. What is the value of spouting off platitudes? as they are from memory, exactly as you describe; to make one feel good. But the difference is they are mood-making. I already expressed myself regarding mood-making. Again, not reflected in the logic and content of your actual writing. You also asked, 'says who'? Good question. Do you have an answer? Well you said it an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. Apparrently with no substantiation. Which is my point. You are spouting dogma you heard. Wake up and do some research and process your own thoughts. Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, And you are quite familiar with all the ways of all the spiritual traditions? Again, it sounds like feel-good platitudes, nothing actually based on studying such traditions and talking to their proponents. Tell us about the aghori and nath practices you have accessed since becoming self-proclaimed enlightened? so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. Sounds like a MUM first year student doing sing-song. Oh well. Perhaps you can say it better? I try mightily to write well, and sometimes I fail. First, I would, and have, reounced dogma echoing in my mind. That is a vow you appear to not have yet taken. And when it appears in my mind I ask do I really know if this is true. Usually, I can't say that I do. So I do some research. On the matter of equal views of enlightenment by Hindus, Christians, Moslems, Sufis, Buddhists, Shaman, first I have come to recognize a huge diversity of opinion and experience even within each of these traditions. And greater diversity among these grand traditions. To sing-song that all religious and spiritual traditions essentially have a shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view is silly and shallow. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, snip so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. I'm feeling better already. lurk Yes, dogmatic fantasies are so uplifting, and SUCH a joy!. I disagree. Ask Jim to access Rinzai Obaku sects and tell you of his access of their their practices and his direct experience of what they decribe as higher states and how its joyously all the same as his own personal experience. If you explain carefully what they are, I'll give you my opinion. hahaha. you are the one claiming enlightenment. And the one claiming once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible So if they are accessable to you why are you asking me. You tell us, in your accessibility mode how their view and experience of higher states is the same as your non-dual advaitist TMO simplified view and experience of enlightenment. Its so blissful. Really? a favorite mocking phrase of an early TMer, mid 1960's, a social aquaintance of mine who later became US ambassador to a number of small but semi important countries, who was aghast even back then at bliss ninnies running amock in the TMO. Even the delusions are Brahman. Who's delusions? hahah, well, not Brahman's. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: enlightenment does not adhere to ANY tradition. It is what it is. Period. I've been given to understand that enlightenment changes quite a bit from one spiritual tradition to another. I'm told, for instance, that Buddhists disagree with Hindus on key points, and when their adherents attain end states they call awakening or enlightenment, the attainees describe their experiences differently from one another but consistent with their traditions. Native Americans have no such states in their traditions, suggesting enlightenment is not something that all traditions recognize. View determines fruit, as Vaj quoted a master as saying. Or as Dana Sawyer says, precept determines percept. I'm not sure if I'm disagreeeing with you here, Jim. I don't know enough about either side of the discussion. I'm simply expressing some cognitive dissonance with the statement that enlightenment does not adhere to any tradition. Uh-oh, I see another Paradox! Just ample warning for those that wish to read no further... Spiritual traditions are all useful, and thank God there are a lot of them, to serve us all in such diversity. What I meant by my remark was that once enlightenment is reached, the spiritual tradition we have followed loses its uniqueness, and in some ways much of its value; an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. Says who? Your intuition? Precisely which enlightened Buddhists, Hindus and Sufis did you talk to regarding this. Or are you just spouting off platitudes that sound good. I looked up platitude: sorry you had to look it up. A comment on American education. a banal, trite, or stale remark. Anyone that knows me personally knows that I am just about anti-platitude. I only know you from your writing and the above is surely not clear from that vantage. What is the value of spouting off platitudes? as they are from memory, exactly as you describe; to make one feel good. But the difference is they are mood-making. I already expressed myself regarding mood-making. Again, not reflected in the logic and content of your actual writing. You also asked, 'says who'? Good question. Do you have an answer? Well you said it an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. Apparrently with no substantiation. Which is my point. You are spouting dogma you heard. Wake up and do some research and process your own thoughts. Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, And you are quite familiar with all the ways of all the spiritual traditions? Again, it sounds like feel-good platitudes, nothing actually based on studying such traditions and talking to their proponents. Tell us about the aghori and nath practices you have accessed since becoming self-proclaimed enlightened? so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. Sounds like a MUM first year student doing sing-song. Oh well. Perhaps you can say it better? I try mightily to write well, and sometimes I fail. First, I would, and have, reounced dogma echoing in my mind. That is a vow you appear to not have yet taken. And when it appears in my mind I ask do I really know if this is true. Usually, I can't say that I do. So I do some research. On the matter of equal views of enlightenment by Hindus, Christians, Moslems, Sufis, Buddhists, Shaman, first I have come to recognize a huge diversity of opinion and experience even within each of these traditions. And greater diversity among these grand traditions. To sing-song that all religious and spiritual traditions essentially have a shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view is silly and shallow. But...you keep reading into my words. I never said that. I said that the end result of all of these religious and spiritual traditions is the same. Else they are not worth the paper their scriptures are written on. They come from the same source. They return us to the same source. That is what I said. And I wouldn't know a 'shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view' if it walked up and bit me. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, lurkernomore20002000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oddly enough, once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible, snip so that we gain a much stronger intuitive appreciation of all of the traditions, and can enjoy them as we wish. I'm feeling better already. lurk Yes, dogmatic fantasies are so uplifting, and SUCH a joy!. I disagree. Ask Jim to access Rinzai Obaku sects and tell you of his access of their their practices and his direct experience of what they decribe as higher states and how its joyously all the same as his own personal experience. If you explain carefully what they are, I'll give you my opinion. hahaha. you are the one claiming enlightenment. And the one claiming once enlightenment blossoms, all of the ways of all of the spiritual traditions become accessible So if they are accessable to you why are you asking me. You tell us, in your accessibility mode how their view and experience of higher states is the same as your non-dual advaitist TMO simplified view and experience of enlightenment. You are not speaking about me at this point. Its so blissful. Really? a favorite mocking phrase of an early TMer, mid 1960's, a social aquaintance of mine who later became US ambassador to a number of small but semi important countries, who was aghast even back then at bliss ninnies running amock in the TMO. I don't get it. Even the delusions are Brahman. Who's delusions? hahah, well, not Brahman's. Who's delusions? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
On Dec 15, 2005, at 8:01 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:No, what I'm saying is, I haven't heard much TM speak as you or others here describe experiences. It's called "conditioned response". Monkey see, Monkey do. Monkey meditate, Monkey experience. With few exceptions, TMers will not express their experiences as something fresh or new but almost entirely TMO-referral. If your lucky you might get some new quantum physics lingo. Maybe a new Sanskrit word gasp.We've talked about View determining Fruit. What about false or commercial View--what kinda Fruit does that give? Would you feed it to your kids? Yum or yuck? Has it been genetically altered in the spiritual sense?The sad thing is conditioned wrong Views are spouted as if they are correct. Because they believe--without critical decision making and self-experimentation. If you don't believe what we tells ya, you off da program dude. What happens when an infinite loop becomes a closed loop? Is their a difference? Not in TM-land.What are the downsides of commercialization of enlightenment traditions? Upside? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Anonymousff wrote: To sing-song that all religious and spiritual traditions essentially have a shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view is silly and shallow. I said that the end result of all of these religious and spiritual traditions is the same. Else they are not worth the paper their scriptures are written on. The same place as your enlightenement tradition, which you have proclaimned as TMO plus some introspection, the former being a simplified shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view. You don't even know the names from which stem your own dogma, yet you expect us to believe your claims that all religions and spiritual traditions end in the same place! How astonishing! Again, the original question: on what basis do you make such claims? Widhful feel-good fantasy and dogma appears to be your main sources, not scholarship, not practice of other traditions, not talking to the accomplished in many other traditions. They come from the same source. They return us to the same source. Nice dogma but on what basis can you make such statements? None of substance it appears or else you would have stated it already instead of repeatedly spouting dogma echoing in the hollow of your mind. That is what I said. And I wouldn't know a 'shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view' if it walked up and bit me. Or knowledge of any other tradition apparently. Yet you KNOW they end in the same place. Hasn't the discordance begun to settle in yet? Or is it sll just a blissful fantasy dream land still for you? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Ever feel sad or cry for no reason at all? Depression. Narrated by Kate Hudson. http://us.click.yahoo.com/CQDrNC/ubOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
On Dec 15, 2005, at 9:52 PM, Vaj wrote:On Dec 15, 2005, at 8:01 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:No, what I'm saying is, I haven't heard much TM speak as you or others here describe experiences.It's called "conditioned response". Monkey see, Monkey do. Monkey meditate, Monkey experience. With few exceptions, TMers will not express their experiences as something fresh or new but almost entirely TMO-referral. If your lucky you might get some new quantum physics lingo. Maybe a new Sanskrit word gasp.I'm sorry. I forgot advaito-speak! It da rage. Ya gotta get you some. It's poetic. Spoken calmly you can convince anyone, even ya-self. Read some books. You're already enlightened! Tell your friends, join a satsang--spread the dis-ease. This ain't no story. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Anonymousff wrote: To sing-song that all religious and spiritual traditions essentially have a shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view is silly and shallow. I said that the end result of all of these religious and spiritual traditions is the same. Else they are not worth the paper their scriptures are written on. The same place as your enlightenement tradition, which you have proclaimned as TMO plus some introspection, the former being a simplified shankarian non-dualistic advaitist view. You don't even know the names from which stem your own dogma, yet you expect us to believe your claims that all religions and spiritual traditions end in the same place! How astonishing! Again, the original question: on what basis do you make such claims? Widhful feel-good fantasy and dogma appears to be your main sources, not scholarship, not practice of other traditions, not talking to the accomplished in many other traditions. They come from the same source. They return us to the same source. Nice dogma but on what basis can you make such statements? None of substance it appears or else you would have stated it already instead of repeatedly spouting dogma echoing in the hollow of your mind. That is what I said. And I wouldn't know a 'shankarian non- dualistic advaitist view' if it walked up and bit me. Or knowledge of any other tradition apparently. Yet you KNOW they end in the same place. Hasn't the discordance begun to settle in yet? Or is it sll just a blissful fantasy dream land still for you? You will never be satisfied with my answers. I wish you all the best. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/hemMeA/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You will never be satisfied with my answers. I wish you all the best. Thats because you make wild unsubstantiated claims, and try to back them up with mere dogma. While it has nothing to do with my satisfaction, it has all to do with the validity of your claims. Which by your own responses is not-existant. I wish you the best of luck in reconciling your world of dogma and delusion with Reality which will inevitably rear its lovely head. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Does he tell you he loves you when he hits you? Abuse. Narrated by Halle Berry. http://us.click.yahoo.com/HcoraC/rbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I meant by my remark was that once enlightenment is reached, the spiritual tradition we have followed loses its uniqueness, and in some ways much of its value; an enlightened Buddhist shares the same view as an enlightened Hindu or Sufi or whatever. When I was a TM teacher, and for a few years after that, I said the same thing. Then I asked, Do I really know what I am talking about here, or am I just parroting unsubstantiated dogma I have heard? I quickly realized it was the latter. With some reading and reaserch, talking to others, I found there are quite large differences in views of different traditions and religions -- and representative saint's reports of states theyhave obtained. But I am not a scholar. Most scholars I have read or talked to, who devote their lives to the topic, find differences not sameness. Parroting dogma is a mental handicap. It can be overcome. Gotta agree. There are *vastly* differing descriptions of enlightenment, by the enlightened, depending upon the tradition in which they realized enlightenment. Lesha vidya, and all that. The Self may be realized, but the self still thinks very much in the same terms it's been used to thinking. In Boulder, CO, many many moons ago, one of the spiritual schools there used to sponsor what they called Holy Man Jams. They'd invite supposedly realized teachers and saints who represented different traditions from all over the world and put them up on the same stage together to speak. In every one of them I ever saw, it descended into arguments within five minutes and never let up after that. For all I know, there could have been five enlightened beings up on that stage, but they were arguing like schoolkids over how to express or explain that enlightenment. Go figure. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your mind is never going to get him [MMY]. Never, ever. Amen. With all due respect and pardons, but that seems quite an odd thing to say. Especially from (no)one proclaiming no self. Who / what is Maharishi? The same as we all experience in or out of meditation. Effulgence, for want of a better inadequate label or name. What is the personality, mind, intellect of Maharishi? Its a hallowed out, crystaline matrix, a unique transparent tapestry woven from the residue of thousands of lives, training, teachers, culturing, habits, experiences, karmas, sadhanas, tapas, sacrafices, blunders, deaths, births, brothers, sisters, pets, hunger, sex, wives, children, wars, peace, oppulence, wandering, seclusion, fame, poverty, shame, dharma, joy, sadness, dispair and elation. What does this tapestry have to do with the Effulgent? Nothing. Other than being a vessel for the Effulgent to flow through. As all vessels, you and me, are. So there is Effulgence, and there is a personality. One of billions of personalities cultured over the eons. That a particular personality has quirks, is odd, misbehaves sometimes -- like Dr. Strangelove's arm trying to chock him -- its all reaction. Reaction of that tapestry, with all its quirky embedded designs, with the day to day ticking of LIFE and experience as presented, while EFFULGENCE flows through it all. What is hard to understand here? Good Morning. So, you've narrowed your understanding down to the roughly six and half billion people currently on the planet, all of whom share in common what you have written about your mind's understanding of Maharishi. Are you able to be more specific? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/AQDrNC/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Your mind is never going to get MMY. Never, ever.
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonymousff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your mind is never going to get him [MMY]. Never, ever. Amen. With all due respect and pardons, but that seems quite an odd thing to say. Especially from (no)one proclaiming no self. Who / what is Maharishi? The same as we all experience in or out of meditation. Effulgence, for want of a better inadequate label or name. What is the personality, mind, intellect of Maharishi? Its a hallowed out, crystaline matrix, a unique transparent tapestry woven from the residue of thousands of lives, training, teachers, culturing, habits, experiences, karmas, sadhanas, tapas, sacrafices, blunders, deaths, births, brothers, sisters, pets, hunger, sex, wives, children, wars, peace, oppulence, wandering, seclusion, fame, poverty, shame, dharma, joy, sadness, dispair and elation. What does this tapestry have to do with the Effulgent? Nothing. Other than being a vessel for the Effulgent to flow through. As all vessels, you and me, are. So there is Effulgence, and there is a personality. One of billions of personalities cultured over the eons. That a particular personality has quirks, is odd, misbehaves sometimes -- like Dr. Strangelove's arm trying to chock him -- its all reaction. Reaction of that tapestry, with all its quirky embedded designs, with the day to day ticking of LIFE and experience as presented, while EFFULGENCE flows through it all. What is hard to understand here? Good Morning. So, you've narrowed your understanding down to the roughly six and half billion people currently on the planet, all of whom share in common what you have written about your mind's understanding of Maharishi. Are you able to be more specific? How odd that you feel 6 billion people are hallowed out, crystaline matrix, a unique transparent tapestry woven from the residue of thousands of lives .. (as in roasted samskaras) while living the fullness of effulgence (not experiences while the samskaras are lively). I guess the currency of liberation is so low today, anything and everything passses as it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Dying to be thin? Anorexia. Narrated by Julianne Moore. http://us.click.yahoo.com/abEMxA/sbOLAA/d1hLAA/0NYolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
