[Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi ya, Just red this quote from the list: Start quote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. End quote Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs are outselling windows machines? Where are you getting those numbers? Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, that is surprising news to me. I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the PC, but last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be anywhere near outselling windows machines. If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a large bet on that, had a wager been presented to my degenerate gambling self. Here is what I dug up quickly on google before going to bed: In an interview with Computerworld, Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi says a major OS shift is coming. By 2015, she predicts, devices running Apple operating systems will overtake those running Windows. Last year, shipments of products running Windows still handily outnumbered those running Mac OS and iOS, by 347 million to 213 million, according to figures from Gartner published Monday. The lead will be slashed to 23 million in 2014, and the Apple OSes will likely outnumber Windows devices in 2015, said Carolina Milanesi, research vice president at Gartner. End article clip So based on those numbers, even throwing in the mobile iOS into the mac equation, windows is outselling them, strip out iOS and those numbers get far more out of balance when we're talking windows versus mac straight up. Obviously on the mobile side of things, apple is owning microsoft, but if we're talking macs versus windows, i.e. desktops and laptops, its not even close, and won't be for many years to come. I think regarding mobile platforms if MS doesn't get their heads out of their collective rear ends, they'll be selling Xbox 2s exclusively in another decade, but for now, they dominate the desktop and laptop market hands down in raw sales. I'm no microsoft fan boy, I have plenty of apple equipment as well, just wanted to make sure folks had the right information on this topic, especially potential developers. There are a lot of audio gamers using macs now, and I am glad for it, but the windows users as far as raw numbers go blow them out of the water, something I considered and researched very carefully when deciding whether to port Rail Racer 2 to mac. In the end, the work didn't justify the return, not at this point in time anyhow. I am learning slowly how to program for iOS, but it is tedious the way voiceover works on the mac, too many hoops to jump through for basic stuff making it very inefficient. Secondly, I'm having a hard time finding help out in the community, although I've only recently started, and I'm sure there are groups of accessible programmers out there somewhere willing to help out with the occasional question from a newbie to the system and xCode IDE, I just haven't ferreted them out yet. If anyone out there knows of someone willing to help me answer a few basic questions about xcode and the like, I'm all about it, and willing to pay for the tutoring,. Cara graciouslly showed me a few things, but I thinnk she is too busy at this point, and I don't want to pester folks. Thanks, Che Email: blindadrenal...@gmail.com Comments? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Star Tradors
Hi all. I have been interested in discussions about Mac vs Windows and iPhone vs Android for quality and quantity of games. I have been meaning to contact the list for a while with this game and a question. Star Tradors is a game where you take command of a space craft and crew and have to complete contracts for various factions often against each other. The game involves resource management, exploration of the galaxy, and balancing the feelings of various warring factions towards you. It seems to be a very deep game with a lot to do and good replayability as you can play as a number of charactor types with varying advantages and disadvantages such as bounty hunter, merchant and pirate. Also you can choose different ships with different charactoristics making each game different. However the game has been made accessible on android but not on iPhone. A friend of mine who is an android user was in contact with the developer to help make it accessible so I have followed his lead by contacting them about the iPhone version hoping that it would be relatively simple to port code over or make similar changes to the iPhone version to make it similarly accessible. The developer seemed positive on initial communication but has been quiet over the last 3 months since I contacted him. So I emailed him again yesterday and got a quick reply, as I always have from him, but not saying much other than that he is working on it. The thing I found very interesting about the whole thing is that he said they focus on their android version of the game as their android sales far outweigh their iPhone sales. I told him that if the game became accessible I would imagine he would see a reasonably large influx of purchases by blind iPhone users as we are always looking for good deep iPhone games that are accessible. I was therefore wondering if any other iPhone users would drop him an eMail to enquire about the possibility of making the iPhone version accessible in the same way as the android one. The problem I have is not having an android device I cannot see what has been done on there to make the game work. the developer is Trese Brothers, and the eMail address is cory.tr...@gmail.com Thanks to anyone who can be of assistance in making this game accessible. Richard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Board games
Hi all. I cannot remember if the discussion of board games is relevant to this list, so apologies if I have overstepped the mark. I live in a household with all blind adults but sighted children so I have a question in a couple of parts. Firstly does anyone know any good board games, mainstream as braille games are extremely limited and I| think we have them all, that can easily be adapted to make them playable by a blind person. I have bought a number of games and made them accessible by using my penfriend on cards, or using a braille letter system and then a key of the cards on a seperate reference sheet. SImilarly I have labeled squares on boards in the same way, as well as using sticky velcrow dots on the squares and underside of playing pieces to great effect. I wanted to know if anyone had any good family or older games that could be easily adapted in this way. Secondly to Dark, you mentioned adapting the game Atmosfear which is a game I really want to buy but haven't taken the plunge and I haven't been sure if it would be possible to adapt it easily. How did you find doing this and was the game any good and playable for blind people? Thanks all for any advice. Richard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi. a few things here. yes, you are correct che. mac's are nothing, compared to windows. mac's alone, make up about 50 to 70 million computers in the world today. windows makes up over 1.5 billion, that's billion with a B for bravo. lol. so mac's are nothing to windows. and unless apple brings their prices down, they will never ever be close to a windows based machine, simply because i can buy a windows computer, that has the same basic internal capabilities as a macbook, for a third of the price. and the every day user, isn't going to spend 3 times the cost, or more. they can't afford it these days. it's mostly rich kids, and people who have a bit of money to throw at a problem that buy macs. the every day user just can't afford that price premium. hell, the prices of iPads and iPhones is just stupid for that matter. note, using the turm pc for only a windows based computer isn't particularly correct, as mac's are PC's as well. just thought i'd throw that in, as in terms of what intel call a pc, a mac is one as well. and yeah, i can imagine that coding on the mac is ... interesting, to say the least. lol. hell, just doing every day functions on a mac, are a combination of contorsionism, and joint popping acrobatics. ahaha. never the less, it's good to see some games coming out on the mac. but it will never be the main platform. the ratio of windows to mac is too great. it's not affordable for a developer to work on some games, for the mac, compared to for windows. well, good luck with your work che. looking forward to getting my paws on a copy of the RR V2. regards: Dallas On 14/12/2013, Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: Hi ya, Just red this quote from the list: Start quote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. End quote Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs are outselling windows machines? Where are you getting those numbers? Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, that is surprising news to me. I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the PC, but last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be anywhere near outselling windows machines. If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a large bet on that, had a wager been presented to my degenerate gambling self. Here is what I dug up quickly on google before going to bed: In an interview with Computerworld, Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi says a major OS shift is coming. By 2015, she predicts, devices running Apple operating systems will overtake those running Windows. Last year, shipments of products running Windows still handily outnumbered those running Mac OS and iOS, by 347 million to 213 million, according to figures from Gartner published Monday. The lead will be slashed to 23 million in 2014, and the Apple OSes will likely outnumber Windows devices in 2015, said Carolina Milanesi, research vice president at Gartner. End article clip So based on those numbers, even throwing in the mobile iOS into the mac equation, windows is outselling them, strip out iOS and those numbers get far more out of balance when we're talking windows versus mac straight up. Obviously on the mobile side of things, apple is owning microsoft, but if we're talking macs versus windows, i.e. desktops and laptops, its not even close, and won't be for many years to come. I think regarding mobile platforms if MS doesn't get their heads out of their collective rear ends, they'll be selling Xbox 2s exclusively in another decade, but for now, they dominate the desktop and laptop market hands down in raw sales. I'm no microsoft fan boy, I have plenty of apple equipment as well, just wanted to make sure folks had the right information on this topic, especially potential developers. There are a lot of audio gamers using macs now, and I am glad for it, but the windows users as far as raw numbers go blow them out of the water, something I considered and researched very carefully when deciding whether to port Rail Racer 2 to mac. In the end, the work didn't justify the return, not at this point in time anyhow. I am learning slowly how to program for iOS, but it is tedious the way voiceover works on the mac, too many hoops to jump through for basic stuff making it very inefficient. Secondly, I'm having a hard time finding help out in the community, although I've only recently started, and I'm sure
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Che, Thanks for this well thought outpost and the information it provides. I believe Mac OS is about 10% to 12% of the market now, but either way you cut the cookie you are right. Windows is clearly the lion's share of the market and no matter how much of an Apple fan boy or Linux fan boy a developer is those operating systems aren't anywhere near being a truly financially viable choice for a developer. It is even worse if it is an adaptive product which is for a minority market within a minority market. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Dallas, You are absolutely right about cost. I know that Apple uses premium hardware in their Mac's, but the average person simply does not care about that. Most people, myself included, are not going to pay $1,200 or more for a Mac when they can get an HP, 'Toshiba, Del, etc for half that from Walmart. It just isn't going to happen. Apple is also way out of line with there iPads and iPhones too. Just the other day I needed a new charger for my phone. I could get a universal charger that works for Android for $14. Turns out one for an Apple iPhone was $35. What kind of dope is Apple smoking when they think the average user will pay double for their stuff? I know that there are certainly groups of people who do buy iPhones, iPads, and Macs to be sure, but just from looking at general research most people buy Windows PCs or Android phones because Apple costs way too much for the average person to buy. Until Apple lowers the cost of their PC and mobile devices they will always be a minority share of the market no matter how good and reliable they are. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. a few things here. yes, you are correct che. mac's are nothing, compared to windows. mac's alone, make up about 50 to 70 million computers in the world today. windows makes up over 1.5 billion, that's billion with a B for bravo. lol. so mac's are nothing to windows. and unless apple brings their prices down, they will never ever be close to a windows based machine, simply because i can buy a windows computer, that has the same basic internal capabilities as a macbook, for a third of the price. and the every day user, isn't going to spend 3 times the cost, or more. they can't afford it these days. it's mostly rich kids, and people who have a bit of money to throw at a problem that buy macs. the every day user just can't afford that price premium. hell, the prices of iPads and iPhones is just stupid for that matter. note, using the turm pc for only a windows based computer isn't particularly correct, as mac's are PC's as well. just thought i'd throw that in, as in terms of what intel call a pc, a mac is one as well. and yeah, i can imagine that coding on the mac is ... interesting, to say the least. lol. hell, just doing every day functions on a mac, are a combination of contorsionism, and joint popping acrobatics. ahaha. never the less, it's good to see some games coming out on the mac. but it will never be the main platform. the ratio of windows to mac is too great. it's not affordable for a developer to work on some games, for the mac, compared to for windows. well, good luck with your work che. looking forward to getting my paws on a copy of the RR V2. regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Star Tradors
Hello Richard. You have actually preempted me here. The other day I mentioned talking to a developer about game access, well that developer was the lead dev of Trees brothers and the game was star traders (I've also at least begun exploring the question of their other games but let's not confused the issue). Yes, now the updates have been made to the Android version of the game to make the starmap accessible, and that is good for Android devices, however with the Iphone it is not the case that the developer is refusing or stalling, it's simply that they happened to work on the Android version first as that is the one which has sold most among their sighted customers. Apparently the financial situation of the company is not good at the moment, so they had to focus their efforts first on what will help their business, and since the access changes also include changes bennificial to sighted users that's fair enough. I personally would be against people mailing Trees brothers and pestering them for Iphone updates. I'm as eager as anyone for a complex Iphone space game, however the last thing we want is to irritate a developer who has already shown themselves capable of access changes and has agreed to make those changes in his own time. If there is no news on the Iphone version I'll certainly discuss matters with the developer in a few months myself, but irritating as it is for now we'll just have to wait, though I do encourage anyone who plays the game on Android to try the access changes and mail the developer with any encouragement. Hope this makes sense. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Soul Trapper Chapter 18 Revisited
Yes. IT'a just practice practice practice! You can do it smiles. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Teresa Cochran Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 7:16 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Soul Trapper Chapter 18 Revisited Hi, all, This chapter has been nagging at me for years. I can play every other level, but parrying in this sword fight is a mystery to me. Has anyone else figured out how to solve it? I get the same results whether VO is on or off. I know I'm pressing the right buttons. Sometimes with VO on, I don't even have to double tap the button. I'm suspecting it could be a timing issue, which would make it darned realistic. I'd love to hear from anyone else who's solved it. Thanks, Teresa On the other hand, there are different fingers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Che, I am sure Josh is talking about his mac games are outselling his windows games. I am sure when Draconis develops a full IOS game for iPhone and iPad, that will outsell the other two combined. I just got my iPhone two months ago and already have purcheased over forty games on it. True, they are in the $0.99 and 1.99 price point. - Original Message - From: Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:18 AM Subject: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi ya, Just red this quote from the list: Start quote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. End quote Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs are outselling windows machines? Where are you getting those numbers? Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, that is surprising news to me. I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the PC, but last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be anywhere near outselling windows machines. If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a large bet on that, had a wager been presented to my degenerate gambling self. Here is what I dug up quickly on google before going to bed: In an interview with Computerworld, Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi says a major OS shift is coming. By 2015, she predicts, devices running Apple operating systems will overtake those running Windows. Last year, shipments of products running Windows still handily outnumbered those running Mac OS and iOS, by 347 million to 213 million, according to figures from Gartner published Monday. The lead will be slashed to 23 million in 2014, and the Apple OSes will likely outnumber Windows devices in 2015, said Carolina Milanesi, research vice president at Gartner. End article clip So based on those numbers, even throwing in the mobile iOS into the mac equation, windows is outselling them, strip out iOS and those numbers get far more out of balance when we're talking windows versus mac straight up. Obviously on the mobile side of things, apple is owning microsoft, but if we're talking macs versus windows, i.e. desktops and laptops, its not even close, and won't be for many years to come. I think regarding mobile platforms if MS doesn't get their heads out of their collective rear ends, they'll be selling Xbox 2s exclusively in another decade, but for now, they dominate the desktop and laptop market hands down in raw sales. I'm no microsoft fan boy, I have plenty of apple equipment as well, just wanted to make sure folks had the right information on this topic, especially potential developers. There are a lot of audio gamers using macs now, and I am glad for it, but the windows users as far as raw numbers go blow them out of the water, something I considered and researched very carefully when deciding whether to port Rail Racer 2 to mac. In the end, the work didn't justify the return, not at this point in time anyhow. I am learning slowly how to program for iOS, but it is tedious the way voiceover works on the mac, too many hoops to jump through for basic stuff making it very inefficient. Secondly, I'm having a hard time finding help out in the community, although I've only recently started, and I'm sure there are groups of accessible programmers out there somewhere willing to help out with the occasional question from a newbie to the system and xCode IDE, I just haven't ferreted them out yet. If anyone out there knows of someone willing to help me answer a few basic questions about xcode and the like, I'm all about it, and willing to pay for the tutoring,. Cara graciouslly showed me a few things, but I thinnk she is too busy at this point, and I don't want to pester folks. Thanks, Che Email: blindadrenal...@gmail.com Comments? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3629/6418 -
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your code. At the same time I am no fan boy of a lot of the security methods used out there to secure and license software. As you say anything can be cracked, stolen, etc by the right person so adding an insane amount of security won't work. What I feel is that there has to be a fair balance between reasonable security to keep amateur wannabe crackers out while not being intrusive to legitimate customers. As you yourself said you should stop trying to create a false sense of security as nothing you try or do is perfect. The only thing you or I can do as developers is make a game good enough that people will want to buy it to own it, offer content only available to legitimate customers, and keep the cost reasonable so you make a decent income from it but not so high that people will want to turn to pirating to get it. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, Yes, it definitely seems that some language coupled with OpenAL is the way to go. For a Windows-only game I'd use XAudio2 (which BGT doesn't do either), but for a multi-platform game OpenAL has a lot to offer inspite of its quirks. It makes transitioning to iOS easier as well, unless you go and use the Papa Engine for full binaural audio in your iOS games. But the Papa Engine and BGT aren't free, which I appreciate can be a bit of a problem for developers just starting out. If you pay those $100 for BGT or your Apple iOS developer account you practically have to come up with something that sells well in order to make it, as you say, financially viable. The cross-platform applications I have developed so far worked reasonably well on Mac, although I never made a serious effort to make the Mac version as streamlined as the Windows version since demand was low. This seems to be rapidly changing now. So yes, coding your own engine in Java or C++ is a lot more work than licensing BGT and using that, but I feel the benefits justify that decision (provided you have the time and resources to take on such a project). Java's lack of security certainly stings. It's understandable if you look at Java's history and intended use, but still... On the other hand, the license agreement should legally stop any legitimate user from prying. Of course enforcing a license agreement is a bit of a toughy for indie developers. But even so, if you have an awesome online back-end to your game, i.e. the bazaar in Entombed, users would still have a good reason to buy the real thing. Not to mention the whole gratitude bit: I took the time to develop for a niche market, so saying thanks by pirating isn't very nice. The harsh truth is that any software can be pirated if the right people get their hands on it. I'm especially concerned about my game's audio being stolen, partly because I want my audio to be at least somewhat unique and partly because it might get me into a legal corner if some kid steals my audio and puts it up somewhere. But then again, no encryption is going to be perfect. Java is the extreme example. You can't properly hide your decryption key in code, and externalizing it makes it even easier for someone to do the decryption themselves. You could definitely store the key on a remote server and download it everytime the game is started, but then your players can't use the game while offline. You could also code your own implementation of AES and push your class files through an obfuscator. That'd probably stop most people, but it's very ugly indeed. So Java is really bad. Except that memory dumping a BGT game also spills a lot of interesting data. So
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Josh, Correct. You have to own a Mac with XCode to develop software for iOS. There isn't any way right now for a Windows or a Linux developer to design software for iOS at this time. Unless they write it, and then find a friend with a Mac to build it with XCode on their Mac. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you do need a mac to develop for IOS, right? using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Philip, Thanks for that statement. That really clears up a lot of questions, and now we all know where you stand. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Davy and others, I wanted to stop by and briefly explain my current intentions for BGT. When I started developing it in late 2009, I had absolutely no idea how it would do financially. Now, 4 years down the line I can say that while sales have been reasonable considering the number of potential developers in the blind community, BGT is not and has never been something that I am going to get rich from. I never figured I would, either, but the truth is that it simply would not make sense for me to spend the amount of time and effort that would be involved porting it to a new platform. I am certainly not discounting Mac OS X/IOS as viable distribution channels. They are growing every day and I target them in all the mainstream projects that I am involved in at present. These other projects were written with cross platform support in mind from the get-go, while BGT was written exclusively for Windows. This means that BGT would require a major overhaul to be portable to other platforms, and I do not feel that an investment on such a scale would be viable at this point considering my current schedule. Had I decided to create an audio game engine at this time, it would certainly have been written with cross platform compatibility in mind from the start. This is not the case with BGT, however, and I cannot spend much more time and money developing it considering the sales figures it has been generating thus far. This certainly does not mean that BGT is going to be abandoned. Far from it. I still enjoy making games as a hobby from time to time, and for that, it works very well for my needs. But I will not be working on it full time as I did a year ago. So for those of you who have been hoping for a cross platform BGT release, I am sorry I can't bring more positive news. However I felt it was better to clearly announce my intentions as opposed to staying silent and leaving users to wonder and speculate. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, Actually, the lack of a 1.0 release of MOTA has more to do with my personal life than indecisiveness. I have decided upon a language, game ideas, level outlines, etc long ago. The problem is my personal life has been a des aster this year, more than I am willing to get into on list, and there has been no time at all to work on the game even though I know what I want to do and how. As for Java I think it will serve you well. Especially if you look at using JInput for input, and Joal for the audio back-end. I would probably do the same myself except for the fact I now have a game engine written in C++ that does everything I need to do and is really stable. I am not going to go down the indecisive road again by looking at another language and alternative APIs. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Shaun, It really saddens me to hear that. Using Visual Basic 6 in this day and age is really a step in the wrong direction in my opinion. Danny would have been better off going with Visual Basic .NET or C# .NET than going to Visual Basic 6. Not trying to criticize here, but developers need to think ahead of what is best for Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 as that is current reality, and it is not that hard to put together a great game in VB .NET using SlimDX that is x64 compatible etc. I don't really know what issues you guys encountered in BGT that would require a drastic rewrite, but it is entirely possible they could be addressed. The engine seems rather capable from what I have seen of it in action and from experimentation, and I don't know how much skill Danny has as a programmer. I would really like more information on what precisely BGT could not do that say Visual Basic 6 could do. Cheers! On 12/11/13, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well davie, when danny and I were working on the deathmatch series danny found out we all did that there were limitations with bgt. Sertain things need to be written a sertain way. And the way we were expanding the deathmatch series was just really going outside of bgt's limits. deathmatch1 is not finnished to what it was going to be. There are so many issues with bgt and its limits and we came on them with saving, arrays and a lot of other things that we have exhausted the language. It was never meant for really large games at least we think so. The engine is good but there is a limit how much you can really do with it. Deathmatch1 was planned to have 10 missions or as many as we could put on. however by mission 3 danny was running out of ideas and as it was there were so many issues by this time. I can tell you we were going to have 4 missions but after all the issues danny has lost interest in that game and decided to end it as quickly as possible. Deathmatch2 started in pure basic but there are some issues to and so its visual basic 6. If you know c++ davie and can code with it then I suggest you stay with it if you can. I think danny and some others would like to learn but its a lot of work writing everything from scratch. However if you do use it on a daily basis I'd stay with that then I would stay with it. As for jawa, I do have java loaded. I've never had much fun with games based on it though. On the subject with sounds, music, etc. There is a way to do this, A lot of games that are comercial that have come lately depending on what additions you get, and how much you pay do include soundtracks as actual files as bonus content. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 13:18 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your code. At the same time I am no fan boy of a lot of the security methods used out there to secure and license software. As you say anything can be cracked, stolen, etc by the right person so adding an insane amount of security won't work. What I feel is that there has to be a fair balance between reasonable security to keep amateur wannabe crackers out while not being intrusive to legitimate customers. As you yourself said you should stop trying to create a false sense of security as nothing you try or do is perfect. The only thing you or I can do as developers is make a game good enough that people will want to buy it to own it, offer content only available to legitimate customers, and keep the cost reasonable so you make a decent income from it but not so high that people will want to turn to pirating to get it. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, Yes, it definitely seems that some language coupled with OpenAL is the way to go. For a Windows-only game I'd use XAudio2 (which BGT doesn't do either), but for a multi-platform game OpenAL has a lot to offer inspite of its quirks. It makes transitioning to iOS easier as well, unless you go and use the Papa Engine for full binaural audio in your iOS games. But the Papa Engine and BGT aren't free, which I appreciate can be a bit of a problem for developers just starting out. If you pay those $100 for BGT or your Apple iOS developer account you practically have to come up with something that sells well in
[Audyssey] space attack installer
Hey Charles, I thought I sent this last night, but obviously not. Sorry about that. Here is an installer. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96692612/SpaceAttackDemoSetup.exe I'll have the full version up as soon as I can figure out how to use PayPal. I used them for Wrecking Ball but haven't seen a dime, so I obviously did something wrong. (I only sold six copies but that's still $60 lol) Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, I just wanted to clarify briefly what issues I had when integrating XAudio2 with BGT. Initially, everything seemed to work flawlessly. But what I noticed when trying it in a large scale project with a lot of sounds playing simultaneously was that XAudio2 would sometimes cause lag before playing a new sound. This was not a sound that had just been opened; it was a sound that had been cloned from another previously existing instance. Therefore I was able to exclude disk IO as the cause. At first I figured that it was probably just my machine being sluggish, but it kept happening regularly. I then wanted to make sure that it wasn't the fact that XAudio2 is virtualized on Windows XP, so I tested it on several Windows 7 and Vista machines with the same results. I then did a side by side comparison of DirectSound and XAudio2, and DirectSound did not suffer from this problem on any of the machines used for the test. This was done in late 2010, but I have not seen any significant new releases of XAudio2 since then so I would presume that the problem still exists. Important to note is that the lag usually does not happen if you have just a few sounds playing at once. You need to reach quantities of about 10 or 15 before it starts to become noticeable. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Thomas, I thought I'd also touch on the subject of sounds (or code) and encryption, since you mentioned licensing and such. Here's a question: Why are you encrypting your sounds? I don't mean how you encrypt them. An industry-standard like AES has been proven to work in the real world, and it can be off-loaded to specialized CPU components for very fast decryption. Inventing your own simple algorithm might not be as secure, but it might be harder to reverse-engineer than a simple call to a system default AES decrypter class. Anyway, back to the why part. Here are a number of reasons to encrypt your sounds: - Your source requests or requires it. - You did your own sounds and don't want others to get their hands on them. - You don't want to spoil the game by allowing users to listen to the cutscenes of levels they haven't unlocked yet. For me, the most important reason is preventing spoilers. Yes, I wouldn't want for my custom-made music to appear on someone's podcast. But think about it: would people really put your music in their productions? Say I snooped Q9's sounds. I absolutely love its music, but if I'd use it for my own project everyone would go Hey, that's Q9! I wouldn't want that. Doesn't mean I don't want to have the Q9 music. I'd love to have it just to listen to. So if there was a $5 or $10 download out there featuring all of the Q9 music, I'd go for it. So that takes care of my second reason for encryption. The first reason is a different beast. If your source for sounds and music requests DRM, you better implement it. But again, such a source would probably be okay with AES encryption, even if you can easily decompile Java classes and pull out the key. So that takes care of the first reason. Now all that remains is preventing spoilers. I agree that the more secure your sounds are, the harder it would be to snatch data. For stuff you haven't unlocked yet, the only way to listen to the spoiler sounds would be to decrypt the sounds themselves. For plain stealing sounds you can work from memory, or even hack dsound.dll to make it dump its buffers to disk. Long story short, this bit definitely requires encryption. The question is if you should switch programming languages just to prevent a handful of people from getting to spoilers. To me it's not. Preventing access to source code you spent months of work on is another story. I'm not yet decided in that area. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 13:18 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your code. At the same time I am no fan boy of a lot of the security methods used out there to secure and license software. As you say anything can be cracked, stolen, etc by the right person so adding an insane amount of security won't work. What I feel is that there has to be a fair balance between reasonable security to keep amateur wannabe crackers out while not being intrusive to legitimate customers. As you yourself said you should stop trying to create a false sense of security as nothing you try or do is perfect. The only thing you or I can do as developers is make a game good enough that people will want to buy it to own it, offer content only available to legitimate customers, and keep the cost reasonable so you make a decent income from it but not so high that people will want to turn to pirating to get it. Cheers! On 12/13/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, Yes, it definitely seems
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Philip, That is good to know! My project had that many sounds loaded, but they weren't all playing at once. I heard that BGT has no 3D sound support. In that case I fully agree that using DirectSound is the way to go for a Windows-only product. By the way, I'm not criticizing BGT for not having 3D audio. I've always found 3D to be very confusing. In my OpenAL project I happily disable it first thing. Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 14:20 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, I just wanted to clarify briefly what issues I had when integrating XAudio2 with BGT. Initially, everything seemed to work flawlessly. But what I noticed when trying it in a large scale project with a lot of sounds playing simultaneously was that XAudio2 would sometimes cause lag before playing a new sound. This was not a sound that had just been opened; it was a sound that had been cloned from another previously existing instance. Therefore I was able to exclude disk IO as the cause. At first I figured that it was probably just my machine being sluggish, but it kept happening regularly. I then wanted to make sure that it wasn't the fact that XAudio2 is virtualized on Windows XP, so I tested it on several Windows 7 and Vista machines with the same results. I then did a side by side comparison of DirectSound and XAudio2, and DirectSound did not suffer from this problem on any of the machines used for the test. This was done in late 2010, but I have not seen any significant new release s of XAudio2 since then so I would presume that the problem still exists. Important to note is that the lag usually does not happen if you have just a few sounds playing at once. You need to reach quantities of about 10 or 15 before it starts to become noticeable. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, Initially when I started writing BGT, I figured that it would be best to begin with simple stereo and then go from there. But then I found out that DirectSound 3d is rather broken, and decided to go for XAudio2 instead. You know the rest of that story. So for this reason, BGT will not have 3d audio as long as it uses DirectSound and it doesn't seem viable to switch to XAudio2 at this point considering the issues I encountered. If I do switch to another sound system, I am not opposed to adding 3d audio as an option if people want to use it. Personally I prefer stereo, but of course this depends entirely on the types of games you want to make and other personal preferences. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:35 PM Subject: RE: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Philip, That is good to know! My project had that many sounds loaded, but they weren't all playing at once. I heard that BGT has no 3D sound support. In that case I fully agree that using DirectSound is the way to go for a Windows-only product. By the way, I'm not criticizing BGT for not having 3D audio. I've always found 3D to be very confusing. In my OpenAL project I happily disable it first thing. Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Philip, Would you consider having two ways to play sounds in BGT? I could see the possibility of using XAudio2 on moving creatures and some other system for everything else. Phil - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Initially when I started writing BGT, I figured that it would be best to begin with simple stereo and then go from there. But then I found out that DirectSound 3d is rather broken, and decided to go for XAudio2 instead. You know the rest of that story. So for this reason, BGT will not have 3d audio as long as it uses DirectSound and it doesn't seem viable to switch to XAudio2 at this point considering the issues I encountered. If I do switch to another sound system, I am not opposed to adding 3d audio as an option if people want to use it. Personally I prefer stereo, but of course this depends entirely on the types of games you want to make and other personal preferences. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi. erm, actually, premium hardware? really? lol. they give you a machine that has a dual core, at double the price of a quad core windows computer. lol. just look at my Toshiba machine I have here. quad core core i7, 2.4 GHZ, up to 3.4 GHZ turbo boost. 8 GB ram, and a 1 TB HDD with I think 8 or 16 GB SSD cashing. blue ray drive, TV tuner card, 4 USB3 ports, HDMI port, audio jacks, and a set of speakers that shame apple's speakers on almost all but an iMac. and it's still a laptop. rofl. to get anything even approaching this level, in a mac, would be around the 2500 to 3000 mark. how much did I pay for this, running windows 8? 1000 bucks. Australian. so no, premium hardware, is not something you can claim, apple. lol. the only thing that is premium, is the casing, track pad, and screens. all else, apple's computers don't come close to windows machines, and certainly not for the prices they want. and yep, unless they bring the prices down, even a couple more hundred, they won't start being a main choice for most buyers when going shopping for a new computer. of course, as blind users of technology, we are more willing to throw money at somebody to make life easier for us. but even we have a limit as to how much we are willing to throw around. specially as now, you can't claim the hole, a mac is cheaper then a windows machine and jaws. sure, if you want to use jaws, go ahead. but there are now extremely good options like NVDA, which now negate those arguments. the advantages to the mac, however, is the fact that voiceover works all the way through, even while clean installing. and what's more, is that apple has one other advantage over a windows computer. lets say you have a new mac, with no optical disk drive. no USB drive with a copy of the OS on it, and no way to recover the system. now lets say something happens to your installation, and it's messed up. you need to run a recovery, / reinstall it. but how are you going to do this? ... well, on windows, you must, and I mean, must, have a backup made of your recovery drive. lets say that something has happened to your recovery drive! ... most people would say, well, you're going to have to send it off to have it repaired. now, in the case of a windows machine, you're probably right. at least, without going and buying a new copy of windows to install and all that. now, in the mac's case, . nope. you don't have to. if you boot in to the recovery mode, with, I think it's command r, while starting the machine up, the firmware on the computer, can go out, and search apple's server, and download a copy of the OS that came with your machine, and download it, and install it fresh, creating a recovery partition in the process! cool, huh? but not worth 3 times the cost. lol. they are cool, and have some kinda cool features, but a lot more needs to be taken in to count if you are going to buy a mac. for example. are you going to want to boot camp / VM windows? that's more money needed to be spent, for a new copy of windows. and it has to be a full disk, not an upgrade disk. unless it's windows 8, which works a little different. ok, anyways, I'm off to blow things up, or shoot them, or do something. lol. regards: Dallas On 14/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Dallas, You are absolutely right about cost. I know that Apple uses premium hardware in their Mac's, but the average person simply does not care about that. Most people, myself included, are not going to pay $1,200 or more for a Mac when they can get an HP, 'Toshiba, Del, etc for half that from Walmart. It just isn't going to happen. Apple is also way out of line with there iPads and iPhones too. Just the other day I needed a new charger for my phone. I could get a universal charger that works for Android for $14. Turns out one for an Apple iPhone was $35. What kind of dope is Apple smoking when they think the average user will pay double for their stuff? I know that there are certainly groups of people who do buy iPhones, iPads, and Macs to be sure, but just from looking at general research most people buy Windows PCs or Android phones because Apple costs way too much for the average person to buy. Until Apple lowers the cost of their PC and mobile devices they will always be a minority share of the market no matter how good and reliable they are. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. a few things here. yes, you are correct che. mac's are nothing, compared to windows. mac's alone, make up about 50 to 70 million computers in the world today. windows makes up over 1.5 billion, that's billion with a B for bravo. lol. so mac's are nothing to windows. and unless apple brings their prices down, they will never ever be close to a windows based machine, simply because i can buy a windows computer, that has the same basic internal capabilities as a macbook, for a third of the price. and the every day user, isn't going
Re: [Audyssey] Star Tradors
hi, i've been talking to trese brothers on twitter and yes they're going to make it accessible. they are hopefully going to get an update out before the end of the year. that's what we hoping for anyway. heroes of steel is also going to come out on ios and they have put voiceover in with that as well i believe. so it's just a waiting game now. no don't email them guys let them do their work. they've said they will do it and for now that is good enough. Sent from my iPad On 14 Dec 2013, at 12:01, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hello Richard. You have actually preempted me here. The other day I mentioned talking to a developer about game access, well that developer was the lead dev of Trees brothers and the game was star traders (I've also at least begun exploring the question of their other games but let's not confused the issue). Yes, now the updates have been made to the Android version of the game to make the starmap accessible, and that is good for Android devices, however with the Iphone it is not the case that the developer is refusing or stalling, it's simply that they happened to work on the Android version first as that is the one which has sold most among their sighted customers. Apparently the financial situation of the company is not good at the moment, so they had to focus their efforts first on what will help their business, and since the access changes also include changes bennificial to sighted users that's fair enough. I personally would be against people mailing Trees brothers and pestering them for Iphone updates. I'm as eager as anyone for a complex Iphone space game, however the last thing we want is to irritate a developer who has already shown themselves capable of access changes and has agreed to make those changes in his own time. If there is no news on the Iphone version I'll certainly discuss matters with the developer in a few months myself, but irritating as it is for now we'll just have to wait, though I do encourage anyone who plays the game on Android to try the access changes and mail the developer with any encouragement. Hope this makes sense. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Phillip, It was very educational to hear the problems you hit with XAudio2. Could you expound on the issues you had with DirectSound 3D as well? Thanks! Ian Reed On Dec 14, 2013, at 6:44 AM, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Davy, Initially when I started writing BGT, I figured that it would be best to begin with simple stereo and then go from there. But then I found out that DirectSound 3d is rather broken, and decided to go for XAudio2 instead. You know the rest of that story. So for this reason, BGT will not have 3d audio as long as it uses DirectSound and it doesn't seem viable to switch to XAudio2 at this point considering the issues I encountered. If I do switch to another sound system, I am not opposed to adding 3d audio as an option if people want to use it. Personally I prefer stereo, but of course this depends entirely on the types of games you want to make and other personal preferences. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] To Developers: Switching from DirectSound to OpenAL Soft
Thanks Cara and Willem. This is very helpful. It is nice to have a library to look at for parsing sound files. I'm also quite glad to hear I can play sounds and music non-positionally. So I can set even a mono sound's source to be stereo and make it non-positional, right Cara? I think OpenAL and OpenAL Soft are 95% the same. You can even rename the OpenAL Soft dll to OpenAL32.dll and use it as a drop in replacement for OpenAL. The only differences I read about were HRTF support and some extra filter support. If you think of any other useful tidbits, I'm all ears, smile. Ian Reed On Dec 13, 2013, at 5:01 PM, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Hi Ian, I use OpenAL rather than OpenAL Soft so hopefully this will help. Yes, you can play music in the same context as positional audio simply by defining the source as stereo rather than mono. When you do this, the source automatically becomes non-positional so you can use it to play music etc, along with your positioned mono sources. To your second point about positioning stereo sounds, I'm not sure about OpenAL Soft but in OpenAL you would need to play the left and right channels of your sound independently using two sources. This way you can position a stereo sound in 3D space. Hope this helps. Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 9 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, I am glad to hear you had no serious issues with XAudio2, but I was merely reporting what I have heard back from Philip Bennefall and others who tried to use it for a production product. I'm more or less on the fence myself weather or not to adopt it, but it is certainly an option for a Windows developer. Seeing as DirectSound is pretty much deprecated on Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1 it is really either XAudio2 or OpenAL for a Windows developer anyway. DirectSound is really only on Windows 7 on up for backwards compatibility and nothing more. What's more DirectSound is emulated rather than actually being the DirectSound 8 library we know from XP and earlier. As for XNA I'm not too sure what Microsoft is doing with it. I have heard the roomers that Microsoft is thinking of scrapping the XNA Framework which would not surprise me. They have not been too committed to .NET development of games. they came out with Managed DirectX, scrapped that, came out with XNA, are looking at scrapping that, and that is primarily why I moved away from C# .NET because Microsoft is too fickle about supporting their .NET APIs where games are concerned. It is also for that reason why I have been looking at open source solutions like OpenAL for my Evolution Engine. At least there I can have access to the code, know someone somewhere is supporting the API, and I am not forced to switch audio library's on a whim because Microsoft or someone decided to switch APIs mid development. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] To Developers: Switching from DirectSound to OpenALSoft
Hey Kara, That's exactly how I do it in directx, and it works just fine. Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . - Original Message - From: Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] To Developers: Switching from DirectSound to OpenALSoft Hi Ian, I use OpenAL rather than OpenAL Soft so hopefully this will help. Yes, you can play music in the same context as positional audio simply by defining the source as stereo rather than mono. When you do this, the source automatically becomes non-positional so you can use it to play music etc, along with your positioned mono sources. To your second point about positioning stereo sounds, I'm not sure about OpenAL Soft but in OpenAL you would need to play the left and right channels of your sound independently using two sources. This way you can position a stereo sound in 3D space. Hope this helps. Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 9:50 AM, Support supp...@blindaudiogames.com wrote: A couple more questions I forgot to ask in the first email: While my main focus is to play 3D sounds in OpenAL it would also be nice to play non-positioned stereo sounds in it as well. Is this possible? Do you have to load a second AudioContext with different settings to make this work? In my current setup I use DirectSound for 3D sounds and DirectX.AudioVideoPlayback for all other sounds. It seems that OpenAL leaves parsing the sound files up to the developer. I do have code for parsing a .wav file, but it would also be nice to use mp3 and ogg vorbis for the stereo sounds and music. Is there a recommended library for getting this benefit? I am using C#, but in general popular C libraries have C# wrappers that I can use. Being able to play stereo sounds and music in OpenAL would be one step closer to cross platform. I also saw a comment in one of the text files in OpenAL Soft that indicated that it could play 3D mono and multi-channel sounds. Can it actually play multi-channel audio in 3D space? Assuming I set the position of the left track and the position of the right track in 3D space? The statement they made could be read as meaning that both mono and multi-channel sounds could be played in 3D. Or maybe the 3D adjective applied only to the mono sounds. Again, I appreciate any help. Ian Reed --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Apologies. I simply have to take this bate. :) On 14 Dec 2013, at 14:06, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. erm, actually, premium hardware? really? lol. they give you a machine that has a dual core, at double the price of a quad core windows computer. lol. just look at my Toshiba machine I have here. quad core core i7, 2.4 GHZ, up to 3.4 GHZ turbo boost. 8 GB ram, and a 1 TB HDD with I think 8 or 16 GB SSD cashing. blue ray drive, TV tuner card, 4 USB3 ports, HDMI port, audio jacks, and a set of speakers that shame apple's speakers on almost all but an iMac. and it's still a laptop. rofl. to get anything even approaching this level, in a mac, would be around the 2500 to 3000 mark. how much did I pay for this, running windows 8? 1000 bucks. Australian. Ooh! Very nice! And now, for the difficult questions: 1. How long do you think it'll last? 2. How much do you think you'll get when you try to flog that when bits of it stop working or when you need something faster? 3. How good is it to handle in daily use? 4. How much do you enjoy using it? 5. How much time do you spend managing it? 6. How much money have you spent on necessary extras, like antivirus software and an Office suite? 7. How do you think the vendor provides support for it? 8. How much crap did you have to remove from it? 9. How upgradable is it, both hardware and software wise? 10. How do you restore it to clean factory condition? As well, I'm sure, as many more. I know the situation is not kosher in Australia at the moment, though this applies to most of the tech sector, who charge whatever they can get away with (I'm in London). However, it is simply a myth that Apple overcharge. Apple has a good supply chain arrangement, which means that yes, you often get less for more. In theory, they could charge less. But Apple makes healthy profits on their computers instead, and still manages to remain competitive with equivalently high-end machines from their rivals. How do you think they do that? Simple: they please their customers. Really. It works. Mac isn't for everyone, and I realise that Mac fanboys and Windoze users aren't always the best of friends, but you should use the platform that's best suited for you. If cost is a deciding factor, then you'll have to turn the Mac down. That doesn't make it a bad platform, it just means you're operating within your budget. Perhaps when you can afford a Mac, you'll reconsider. Likewise, when Windows or Linux provides obvious advantages, like running on commodity hardware of your own choosing and specifications, those are the clear choices. Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
you can get a great windows7 machine from blaire technology group for $190 or around $200. take off the back pannel put 4 more gigs of ram in and you are good to go. using windows7 laptop On 12/14/2013 5:56 AM, Dallas O'Brien wrote: hi. a few things here. yes, you are correct che. mac's are nothing, compared to windows. mac's alone, make up about 50 to 70 million computers in the world today. windows makes up over 1.5 billion, that's billion with a B for bravo. lol. so mac's are nothing to windows. and unless apple brings their prices down, they will never ever be close to a windows based machine, simply because i can buy a windows computer, that has the same basic internal capabilities as a macbook, for a third of the price. and the every day user, isn't going to spend 3 times the cost, or more. they can't afford it these days. it's mostly rich kids, and people who have a bit of money to throw at a problem that buy macs. the every day user just can't afford that price premium. hell, the prices of iPads and iPhones is just stupid for that matter. note, using the turm pc for only a windows based computer isn't particularly correct, as mac's are PC's as well. just thought i'd throw that in, as in terms of what intel call a pc, a mac is one as well. and yeah, i can imagine that coding on the mac is ... interesting, to say the least. lol. hell, just doing every day functions on a mac, are a combination of contorsionism, and joint popping acrobatics. ahaha. never the less, it's good to see some games coming out on the mac. but it will never be the main platform. the ratio of windows to mac is too great. it's not affordable for a developer to work on some games, for the mac, compared to for windows. well, good luck with your work che. looking forward to getting my paws on a copy of the RR V2. regards: Dallas On 14/12/2013, Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: Hi ya, Just red this quote from the list: Start quote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. End quote Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs are outselling windows machines? Where are you getting those numbers? Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, that is surprising news to me. I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the PC, but last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be anywhere near outselling windows machines. If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a large bet on that, had a wager been presented to my degenerate gambling self. Here is what I dug up quickly on google before going to bed: In an interview with Computerworld, Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi says a major OS shift is coming. By 2015, she predicts, devices running Apple operating systems will overtake those running Windows. Last year, shipments of products running Windows still handily outnumbered those running Mac OS and iOS, by 347 million to 213 million, according to figures from Gartner published Monday. The lead will be slashed to 23 million in 2014, and the Apple OSes will likely outnumber Windows devices in 2015, said Carolina Milanesi, research vice president at Gartner. End article clip So based on those numbers, even throwing in the mobile iOS into the mac equation, windows is outselling them, strip out iOS and those numbers get far more out of balance when we're talking windows versus mac straight up. Obviously on the mobile side of things, apple is owning microsoft, but if we're talking macs versus windows, i.e. desktops and laptops, its not even close, and won't be for many years to come. I think regarding mobile platforms if MS doesn't get their heads out of their collective rear ends, they'll be selling Xbox 2s exclusively in another decade, but for now, they dominate the desktop and laptop market hands down in raw sales. I'm no microsoft fan boy, I have plenty of apple equipment as well, just wanted to make sure folks had the right information on this topic, especially potential developers. There are a lot of audio gamers using macs now, and I am glad for it, but the windows users as far as raw numbers go blow them out of the water, something I considered and researched very carefully when deciding whether to port Rail Racer 2 to mac. In the end, the work didn't justify the return, not at this point in time anyhow. I am learning slowly how to program for iOS, but it is tedious the way voiceover works on the mac,
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Josh, True, but there is a down side to buying cheap computers, and that is the hardware doesn't last long. I have owned many affordable e-machines for Windows and Linux, and I am here to say that in the main the hardware lasts about two years and dies. I'll give you an example here. The Compaq Presario I am using right now has had numerous hardware replacements in the five years since I purchased it from Walmart. First the CD/DVD drive died and needed replaced, the keyboard stopped working and needed replaced, the power supply had to be replaced, and now it looks like I am going to have to get a new case fan for the laptop case. I don't know what cheap parts Compaq, AKA HP, is using in there budget machines but I have had more problems with this laptop than I have ever had with a more expensive system. the point I am getting at is I know people with Mac's who purchased their laptop right about the same time I got this Compaq and have had less troubles with the hardware in that PC than I have had. The deciding factor is that they paid about $1500 for their laptops and I paid about $500 for mine. So I do believe you get what you pay for, and when it comes to reliability Mac's do pay off in less down time. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you can get a great windows7 machine from blaire technology group for $190 or around $200. take off the back pannel put 4 more gigs of ram in and you are good to go. using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Here is the Intel Core i7 that is in the current high-end MacBook Air: http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/ Notice that it costs roughly US$ 450. I call that premium. Most CPUs in rival ultrabooks sit $50 to $150 below that mark. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Dallas O'Brien Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 15:07 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question hi. erm, actually, premium hardware? really? lol. they give you a machine that has a dual core, at double the price of a quad core windows computer. lol. just look at my Toshiba machine I have here. quad core core i7, 2.4 GHZ, up to 3.4 GHZ turbo boost. 8 GB ram, and a 1 TB HDD with I think 8 or 16 GB SSD cashing. blue ray drive, TV tuner card, 4 USB3 ports, HDMI port, audio jacks, and a set of speakers that shame apple's speakers on almost all but an iMac. and it's still a laptop. rofl. to get anything even approaching this level, in a mac, would be around the 2500 to 3000 mark. how much did I pay for this, running windows 8? 1000 bucks. Australian. so no, premium hardware, is not something you can claim, apple. lol. the only thing that is premium, is the casing, track pad, and screens. all else, apple's computers don't come close to windows machines, and certainly not for the prices they want. and yep, unless they bring the prices down, even a couple more hundred, they won't start being a main choice for most buyers when going shopping for a new computer. of course, as blind users of technology, we are more willing to throw money at somebody to make life easier for us. but even we have a limit as to how much we are willing to throw around. specially as now, you can't claim the hole, a mac is cheaper then a windows machine and jaws. sure, if you want to use jaws, go ahead. but there are now extremely good options like NVDA, which now negate those arguments. the advantages to the mac, however, is the fact that voiceover works all the way through, even while clean installing. and what's more, is that apple has one other advantage over a windows computer. lets say you have a new mac, with no optical disk drive. no USB drive with a copy of the OS on it, and no way to recover the system. now lets say something happens to your installation, and it's messed up. you need to run a recovery, / reinstall it. but how are you going to do this? ... well, on windows, you must, and I mean, must, have a backup made of your recovery drive. lets say that something has happened to your recovery drive! ... most people would say, well, you're going to have to send it off to have it repaired. now, in the case of a windows machine, you're probably right. at least, without going and buying a new copy of windows to install and all that. now, in the mac's case, . nope. you don't have to. if you boot in to the recovery mode, with, I think it's command r, while starting the machine up, the firmware on the computer, can go out, and search apple's server, and download a copy of the OS that came with your machine, and download it, and install it fresh, creating a recovery partition in the process! cool, huh? but not worth 3 times the cost. lol. they are cool, and have some kinda cool features, but a lot more needs to be taken in to count if you are going to buy a mac. for example. are you going to want to boot camp / VM windows? that's more money needed to be spent, for a new copy of windows. and it has to be a full disk, not an upgrade disk. unless it's windows 8, which works a little different. ok, anyways, I'm off to blow things up, or shoot them, or do something. lol. regards: Dallas On 14/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Dallas, You are absolutely right about cost. I know that Apple uses premium hardware in their Mac's, but the average person simply does not care about that. Most people, myself included, are not going to pay $1,200 or more for a Mac when they can get an HP, 'Toshiba, Del, etc for half that from Walmart. It just isn't going to happen. Apple is also way out of line with there iPads and iPhones too. Just the other day I needed a new charger for my phone. I could get a universal charger that works for Android for $14. Turns out one for an Apple iPhone was $35. What kind of dope is Apple smoking when they think the average user will pay double for their stuff? I know that there are certainly groups of people who do buy iPhones, iPads, and Macs to be sure, but just from looking at general research most people buy Windows PCs or Android phones because Apple costs way too much for the average person to buy. Until Apple lowers the cost of their PC and mobile devices they will always be a minority share of the market no matter how good and reliable they are. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. a few things here.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Dallis, By premium hardware I should say more reliable hardware. I know people who own Mac's who have less down time, less hardware issues, and more stability than your average Windows e-machine. Yes, I know a Windows user can get a killer machine for far less than the Mac, but I also know that those Windows machines often are built with cheap generic parts which are known to fail within the first couple of years of ownership. As I just mentioned in my prior e-mail my Compaq Presario, which was purchased for less than $500, has had nothing but hardware issues one after another. I have a Toshiba C600 which I have owned for two years and it has already had to be serviced once in the first two years of ownership. Yeah, they are cheap computers, are nice budget machines, but they also don't have quality hardware. Now, I know someone who has had a Mac from about 2008 or so and it has no hardware issues at all. It is used in an office environment, meaning it gets heavy use, and it takes a licking and keeps on ticking. So why the hardware might not be as good as that on a Windows machine on the face of it does seem to be more reliable and better quality. So I do think we disagree on weather or not Apple can claim premium hardware, but I do agree regardless the cost is something that is not for everyone. Most people won't pay it, don't have it to pay, and as long as Apple's pricing remain up their in the stratosphere they are going to play second fiddle to Windows PCs. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Dallas O'Brien dallas.r.obr...@gmail.com wrote: hi. erm, actually, premium hardware? really? lol. they give you a machine that has a dual core, at double the price of a quad core windows computer. lol. just look at my Toshiba machine I have here. quad core core i7, 2.4 GHZ, up to 3.4 GHZ turbo boost. 8 GB ram, and a 1 TB HDD with I think 8 or 16 GB SSD cashing. blue ray drive, TV tuner card, 4 USB3 ports, HDMI port, audio jacks, and a set of speakers that shame apple's speakers on almost all but an iMac. and it's still a laptop. rofl. to get anything even approaching this level, in a mac, would be around the 2500 to 3000 mark. how much did I pay for this, running windows 8? 1000 bucks. Australian. so no, premium hardware, is not something you can claim, apple. lol. the only thing that is premium, is the casing, track pad, and screens. all else, apple's computers don't come close to windows machines, and certainly not for the prices they want. and yep, unless they bring the prices down, even a couple more hundred, they won't start being a main choice for most buyers when going shopping for a new computer. of course, as blind users of technology, we are more willing to throw money at somebody to make life easier for us. but even we have a limit as to how much we are willing to throw around. specially as now, you can't claim the hole, a mac is cheaper then a windows machine and jaws. sure, if you want to use jaws, go ahead. but there are now extremely good options like NVDA, which now negate those arguments. the advantages to the mac, however, is the fact that voiceover works all the way through, even while clean installing. and what's more, is that apple has one other advantage over a windows computer. lets say you have a new mac, with no optical disk drive. no USB drive with a copy of the OS on it, and no way to recover the system. now lets say something happens to your installation, and it's messed up. you need to run a recovery, / reinstall it. but how are you going to do this? ... well, on windows, you must, and I mean, must, have a backup made of your recovery drive. lets say that something has happened to your recovery drive! ... most people would say, well, you're going to have to send it off to have it repaired. now, in the case of a windows machine, you're probably right. at least, without going and buying a new copy of windows to install and all that. now, in the mac's case, . nope. you don't have to. if you boot in to the recovery mode, with, I think it's command r, while starting the machine up, the firmware on the computer, can go out, and search apple's server, and download a copy of the OS that came with your machine, and download it, and install it fresh, creating a recovery partition in the process! cool, huh? but not worth 3 times the cost. lol. they are cool, and have some kinda cool features, but a lot more needs to be taken in to count if you are going to buy a mac. for example. are you going to want to boot camp / VM windows? that's more money needed to be spent, for a new copy of windows. and it has to be a full disk, not an upgrade disk. unless it's windows 8, which works a little different. ok, anyways, I'm off to blow things up, or shoot them, or do something. lol. regards: Dallas --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi, One interesting point I see being raised over and over here is that developing for Mac adds cost on the developer's end. Without denying that statement, I'm curious to know what is meant here: - Cost of a physical Mac (because you don't like VirtualBox). - Cost of an Apple developer account (because you don't like cross-platform technologies). - Time spent learning Objective-C (because again you don't fancy going cross-platform in some other way). - Extra time spent optimizing your app for Mac OS (because the cross-platform tools you use turned out not to be as cross-platform as you believed). What about Linux: do you think that supporting that operating system adds an equal amount to your bill as would Mac OS? What if you owned only a Mac, developed only for Mac, and wanted to port to Windows? Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 12:38 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Che, Thanks for this well thought outpost and the information it provides. I believe Mac OS is about 10% to 12% of the market now, but either way you cut the cookie you are right. Windows is clearly the lion's share of the market and no matter how much of an Apple fan boy or Linux fan boy a developer is those operating systems aren't anywhere near being a truly financially viable choice for a developer. It is even worse if it is an adaptive product which is for a minority market within a minority market. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
blaire technology is a microsoft authorized refurbishing company. the hp elitbook 6930p and the dell latitude e4310 when they were sold they were not inexpensive machines at all. they were in dell and hp's business and enterprise stores. so blaire technology group takes 3 to 4 year old high quality business machines and does a very thorough refurbishing job on them. Now if this were an inspiron or one of the consumer walmart machines from dell or hp gotten at walmart then yes the parts would be cheap and it would not last long. but for the most part blaire resells business high quality machines. using windows7 laptop On 12/14/2013 10:36 AM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Josh, True, but there is a down side to buying cheap computers, and that is the hardware doesn't last long. I have owned many affordable e-machines for Windows and Linux, and I am here to say that in the main the hardware lasts about two years and dies. I'll give you an example here. The Compaq Presario I am using right now has had numerous hardware replacements in the five years since I purchased it from Walmart. First the CD/DVD drive died and needed replaced, the keyboard stopped working and needed replaced, the power supply had to be replaced, and now it looks like I am going to have to get a new case fan for the laptop case. I don't know what cheap parts Compaq, AKA HP, is using in there budget machines but I have had more problems with this laptop than I have ever had with a more expensive system. the point I am getting at is I know people with Mac's who purchased their laptop right about the same time I got this Compaq and have had less troubles with the hardware in that PC than I have had. The deciding factor is that they paid about $1500 for their laptops and I paid about $500 for mine. So I do believe you get what you pay for, and when it comes to reliability Mac's do pay off in less down time. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you can get a great windows7 machine from blaire technology group for $190 or around $200. take off the back pannel put 4 more gigs of ram in and you are good to go. using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I got my dell latitude business machine rfurbished from newegg for $350 at the time and now it is down to $280. it has 4gigs of ram and a core i5 processor with a 250gig hard drive and windows7 64bit. a very solidly built business high quality machine for $300 or so? you can't beat that. using windows7 laptop On 12/14/2013 10:46 AM, Davy Kager wrote: Here is the Intel Core i7 that is in the current high-end MacBook Air: http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/ Notice that it costs roughly US$ 450. I call that premium. Most CPUs in rival ultrabooks sit $50 to $150 below that mark. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Dallas O'Brien Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 15:07 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question hi. erm, actually, premium hardware? really? lol. they give you a machine that has a dual core, at double the price of a quad core windows computer. lol. just look at my Toshiba machine I have here. quad core core i7, 2.4 GHZ, up to 3.4 GHZ turbo boost. 8 GB ram, and a 1 TB HDD with I think 8 or 16 GB SSD cashing. blue ray drive, TV tuner card, 4 USB3 ports, HDMI port, audio jacks, and a set of speakers that shame apple's speakers on almost all but an iMac. and it's still a laptop. rofl. to get anything even approaching this level, in a mac, would be around the 2500 to 3000 mark. how much did I pay for this, running windows 8? 1000 bucks. Australian. so no, premium hardware, is not something you can claim, apple. lol. the only thing that is premium, is the casing, track pad, and screens. all else, apple's computers don't come close to windows machines, and certainly not for the prices they want. and yep, unless they bring the prices down, even a couple more hundred, they won't start being a main choice for most buyers when going shopping for a new computer. of course, as blind users of technology, we are more willing to throw money at somebody to make life easier for us. but even we have a limit as to how much we are willing to throw around. specially as now, you can't claim the hole, a mac is cheaper then a windows machine and jaws. sure, if you want to use jaws, go ahead. but there are now extremely good options like NVDA, which now negate those arguments. the advantages to the mac, however, is the fact that voiceover works all the way through, even while clean installing. and what's more, is that apple has one other advantage over a windows computer. lets say you have a new mac, with no optical disk drive. no USB drive with a copy of the OS on it, and no way to recover the system. now lets say something happens to your installation, and it's messed up. you need to run a recovery, / reinstall it. but how are you going to do this? ... well, on windows, you must, and I mean, must, have a backup made of your recovery drive. lets say that something has happened to your recovery drive! ... most people would say, well, you're going to have to send it off to have it repaired. now, in the case of a windows machine, you're probably right. at least, without going and buying a new copy of windows to install and all that. now, in the mac's case, . nope. you don't have to. if you boot in to the recovery mode, with, I think it's command r, while starting the machine up, the firmware on the computer, can go out, and search apple's server, and download a copy of the OS that came with your machine, and download it, and install it fresh, creating a recovery partition in the process! cool, huh? but not worth 3 times the cost. lol. they are cool, and have some kinda cool features, but a lot more needs to be taken in to count if you are going to buy a mac. for example. are you going to want to boot camp / VM windows? that's more money needed to be spent, for a new copy of windows. and it has to be a full disk, not an upgrade disk. unless it's windows 8, which works a little different. ok, anyways, I'm off to blow things up, or shoot them, or do something. lol. regards: Dallas On 14/12/2013, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Dallas, You are absolutely right about cost. I know that Apple uses premium hardware in their Mac's, but the average person simply does not care about that. Most people, myself included, are not going to pay $1,200 or more for a Mac when they can get an HP, 'Toshiba, Del, etc for half that from Walmart. It just isn't going to happen. Apple is also way out of line with there iPads and iPhones too. Just the other day I needed a new charger for my phone. I could get a universal charger that works for Android for $14. Turns out one for an Apple iPhone was $35. What kind of dope is Apple smoking when they think the average user will pay double for their stuff? I know that there are certainly groups of people who do buy iPhones, iPads, and Macs to be sure, but just from looking at general research most people buy Windows PCs or
[Audyssey] computers
also my hp elitebook and the dell latitude e4310 have pointer sticks or nubs between the g and h keys right above the letter b. b as in bravo. I got a really really sturdy fast high quality business machine for $190. I will not ever buy consumer pcs again. I will get refurbished business computers. laptops are my preference. I got 6gigs of ram in this one and may upgrade the dell latitude business laptop to 6 or 8gigs of ram. maybe not though because 4gigs seems to be doing fine in that one and even with this one I never if rarely go over the 2gb usage mark according to the nvda resource monitor addon. even when using marry-tts natural voices with speech hub and nvda and google chrome which takes up lots of ram 4gigs is fine. also common linux distros like ubuntu sonar and vinux4 work great on both laptops. they are easy to take apart and put more ram and better hard drives into them as well. The pointing stick is a bit of an annoyance sometimes but I just try and avoid touching it that's all. -- using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] space attack installer
I didn't know that Wrecking Ball was for sale. I thought that the demo, under development, was the only available file. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Ken Downey kenwdow...@thepionear.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 7:10 AM Subject: [Audyssey] space attack installer Hey Charles, I thought I sent this last night, but obviously not. Sorry about that. Here is an installer. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96692612/SpaceAttackDemoSetup.exe I'll have the full version up as soon as I can figure out how to use PayPal. I used them for Wrecking Ball but haven't seen a dime, so I obviously did something wrong. (I only sold six copies but that's still $60 lol) Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] space attack installer
That I say wrecking ball? I meant phrase madness. I probably will sell wrecking ball version two as well, but that still away down the pike. Good is the worst enemy of best. Ken On Dec 14, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: I didn't know that Wrecking Ball was for sale. I thought that the demo, under development, was the only available file. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Ken Downey kenwdow...@thepionear.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 7:10 AM Subject: [Audyssey] space attack installer Hey Charles, I thought I sent this last night, but obviously not. Sorry about that. Here is an installer. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96692612/SpaceAttackDemoSetup.exe I'll have the full version up as soon as I can figure out how to use PayPal. I used them for Wrecking Ball but haven't seen a dime, so I obviously did something wrong. (I only sold six copies but that's still $60 lol) Check out my games at www.ThePionEar.net and my music, and that of my band, at www.ThePionEar.net/BlindLabyrinth.html . Also, check out, The Believer and Skeptic Show, at iTunes! If you want to reach me, you can call 419-744-0517, friend me on Facebook, (KenWDowney,) or write me at kenwdow...@me.com . --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Davy, Well, for one thing to develop software for the Mac it requires purchasing a Mac. Both hardware and software. It is not legal to buy Mac OS X and run it in Virtualbox or in VMWare Player. Although, I have heard it can be done if you have the proper hardware to do it. Hardware is a sticking point for developers. Even if you want to virtualize Mac OS, legality not with standing, there are hardware issues to consider. I have read that if someone has an AMD64 processor, which I do, there is no way at all to run Mac OS X on that machine in Virtualbox or VMWare Player. So there is really little choice for me and I assume most other developers but to go out and pay for a Mac PC with Mac OS X. That will cost at least $1,200 or more. The cost of a Mac developer account just adds cost to the problem if a person wants or needs that service. I think it is $99 per year, which is cheaper than MSDN, but if a person doesn't have it to spend they don't have it to spend. One way, of course, to cut costs is to attempt to use a more cross-platform language and tools like Java, Python, whatever. I've developed my share of low cost apps in Java, love the language, but am still not sold on using Java for developing accessible games personally. As for Linux I use the operating system all the time, and I do not think adding the OS to my list of supported platforms would seriously impact my development costs or anyone else's for that matter. For one thing Linux is totally free, and someone can download Ubuntu, Sonar, Vinux, Fedora, Debian, etc for free, and get all the tools and documentation they need. Plus Linux can run side by side with windows on the same machine meaning there are no up front extra hardware costs involved in running and developing for the platform. Now, if someone owned a Mac and wanted to port to Windows there would certainly be costs involved, but it would be far less. One reason is all they would need to do is go out and buy Windows 7, run it in Bootcamp, and can get plenty of development tools for free. There is Visual Studio Express, the free MinGW compilers, the NVDA screen reader, etc to really cut costs in porting something from Mac to Windows. Then, if they chose to use Java that would also be a very low cost solution for the developer. So I believe going from Mac to Windows is over all cheaper than going from Windows to Mac if the person doesn't have the hardware and software required to begin with. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, One interesting point I see being raised over and over here is that developing for Mac adds cost on the developer's end. Without denying that statement, I'm curious to know what is meant here: - Cost of a physical Mac (because you don't like VirtualBox). - Cost of an Apple developer account (because you don't like cross-platform technologies). - Time spent learning Objective-C (because again you don't fancy going cross-platform in some other way). - Extra time spent optimizing your app for Mac OS (because the cross-platform tools you use turned out not to be as cross-platform as you believed). What about Linux: do you think that supporting that operating system adds an equal amount to your bill as would Mac OS? What if you owned only a Mac, developed only for Mac, and wanted to port to Windows? Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
have you thought of developing for android like the nexus4 5 and 7 and samsng devices? using windows7 laptop On 12/14/2013 12:11 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Davy, Well, for one thing to develop software for the Mac it requires purchasing a Mac. Both hardware and software. It is not legal to buy Mac OS X and run it in Virtualbox or in VMWare Player. Although, I have heard it can be done if you have the proper hardware to do it. Hardware is a sticking point for developers. Even if you want to virtualize Mac OS, legality not with standing, there are hardware issues to consider. I have read that if someone has an AMD64 processor, which I do, there is no way at all to run Mac OS X on that machine in Virtualbox or VMWare Player. So there is really little choice for me and I assume most other developers but to go out and pay for a Mac PC with Mac OS X. That will cost at least $1,200 or more. The cost of a Mac developer account just adds cost to the problem if a person wants or needs that service. I think it is $99 per year, which is cheaper than MSDN, but if a person doesn't have it to spend they don't have it to spend. One way, of course, to cut costs is to attempt to use a more cross-platform language and tools like Java, Python, whatever. I've developed my share of low cost apps in Java, love the language, but am still not sold on using Java for developing accessible games personally. As for Linux I use the operating system all the time, and I do not think adding the OS to my list of supported platforms would seriously impact my development costs or anyone else's for that matter. For one thing Linux is totally free, and someone can download Ubuntu, Sonar, Vinux, Fedora, Debian, etc for free, and get all the tools and documentation they need. Plus Linux can run side by side with windows on the same machine meaning there are no up front extra hardware costs involved in running and developing for the platform. Now, if someone owned a Mac and wanted to port to Windows there would certainly be costs involved, but it would be far less. One reason is all they would need to do is go out and buy Windows 7, run it in Bootcamp, and can get plenty of development tools for free. There is Visual Studio Express, the free MinGW compilers, the NVDA screen reader, etc to really cut costs in porting something from Mac to Windows. Then, if they chose to use Java that would also be a very low cost solution for the developer. So I believe going from Mac to Windows is over all cheaper than going from Windows to Mac if the person doesn't have the hardware and software required to begin with. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, One interesting point I see being raised over and over here is that developing for Mac adds cost on the developer's end. Without denying that statement, I'm curious to know what is meant here: - Cost of a physical Mac (because you don't like VirtualBox). - Cost of an Apple developer account (because you don't like cross-platform technologies). - Time spent learning Objective-C (because again you don't fancy going cross-platform in some other way). - Extra time spent optimizing your app for Mac OS (because the cross-platform tools you use turned out not to be as cross-platform as you believed). What about Linux: do you think that supporting that operating system adds an equal amount to your bill as would Mac OS? What if you owned only a Mac, developed only for Mac, and wanted to port to Windows? Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy, I just wanted to clarify briefly what issues I had when integrating XAudio2 with BGT. Initially, everything seemed to work flawlessly. But what I noticed when trying it in a large scale project with a lot of sounds playing simultaneously was that XAudio2 would sometimes cause lag before playing a new sound. This was not a sound that had just been opened; it was a sound that had been cloned from another previously existing instance. Therefore I was able to exclude disk IO as the cause. At first I figured that it was probably just my machine being sluggish, but it kept happening regularly. I then wanted to make sure that it wasn't the fact that XAudio2 is virtualized on Windows XP, so I tested it on several Windows 7 and Vista machines with the same results. I then did a side by side comparison of DirectSound and XAudio2, and DirectSound did not suffer from this problem on any of the machines used for the test. This was done in late 2010, but I have not seen any significant new releases of XAudio2 since then so I would presume that the problem still exists. Important to note is that the lag usually does not happen if you have just a few sounds playing at once. You need to reach quantities of about 10 or 15 before it starts to become noticeable. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Thomas, I have had no trouble with XAudio2. That coupled with very low-level input handling using the Win32 API made for some awesome times. Still, the disadvantage to such low-level work (I count XAudio2 as relatively low-level too), is that it takes more work to get things done - including more evaluation of your code to make sure it won't crash at run-time. And the difference inr esponsiveness isn't too big anyway. We're talking milliseconds here. The one thing I did like about those components is that it was mostly event-driven. I'm not a big fan of polling for input. Unfortunately, I've read that Microsoft dropped XNA, so I wouldn't be surprised if XAudio2 is going too. That's two abandoned audio systems in five years. And really, OpenAL isn't so bad. There are devices with hardware support (though I'm disabling that to ensure a uniform user experience). And with the rise of Steam, being able to target Linux is a good thing. Then there is the iOS thing, they use OpenAL too. Joal is a great option for Java developers. For iOS there is the excellent Object-AL. Sadly Joal seems to have some issues acquiring the soundcard at times, but that's probably partly the fault of Windows and its drivers. It's also a bit of a resource hog, it does a lot of memory copying that more low-level APIs avoid. But hey, it does save you some resource managing. DirectSound was great, and it's cool that it still works on modern systems, but just like with VB6 I'd strongly suggest new developers skip it altogether. As you said the 3D part is very much broken unless you do your own tweaking (and even then), and to be fair the API really isn't that easy to use compared to XAudio2 or OpenAL. The one nice thing is that you can easily script against it, but that's not too important for serious game developers. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 13:18 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Davy, Well, the problem with XAudio2 is that a number of developers have reported it is buggy. Philip was working on a version of BGT that uses XAudio2, and found out it caused some instabilities in BGT and removed XAudio2 support for the time being. So that is why BGT does not presently support XAudio2. However, I agree for a multi-platform game there is no better option than OpenAL. You can use Joal for Java or write your own custom wrapper for the library for a decent cross-platform audio library that works on Mac, Linux, and Windows. Truth be told I am looking at using OpenAL as a replacement for DirectSound on Windows anyway just because the 3d audio is broken big time on DirectSound in Windows 7, Windows 8, and Windows 8.1. Clearly I need something else other than DirectSound, and XAudio2 is rather up in the air at this point. As far as license agreement stopping someone from reverse engineering code I just can not go with that option. To me that is like someone intentionally leaving their front door unlocked and than hanging a sign outside saying do not enter. A person who respects you as a developer, has some decency, obviously won't reverse your code or pirate your software. However, sad to say a lot of people will not and it never hurts to add a few extra layers of security to keep the amateur wannabe crackers out of your
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
There is always this too: http://coronalabs.com/ Of course the disadvantage is that you don't learn about the native platform in the way you would when going Objective-C. You may also not get the same low-level access (i.e. Accelerated framework, Audio Units) that you get using Objective-C. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Cara Quinn Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 03:57 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi Josh, Yes, you do need a Mac. Not sure if you're offering commentary on my note but if you are, davy mentioned purchasing a Mac and then the big money for the dev account so I was wondering if there might be some confusion here. If you have any other questions on Mac / iOS development, please don't hesitate to ask. :) -Happy to answer them… Have an awesome night! Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you do need a mac to develop for IOS, right? using windows7 laptop On 12/13/2013 7:13 PM, Cara Quinn wrote: Hi Davy, A question and a comment; When you say big bucks for a developer account, you are aware that this is $99 per year, not per month, yes? This translates to less than $8 per month, -less than $2 per week. Not sure of your budget but just want to make sure we're all on the same page here. :) To your point about not needing XCode when using C++, you do still need XCode to build for iOS / Mac, regardless of whether you use C++ or not. Hope this helps and hope you and yours are having a most lovely holiday season! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, All very interesting points you made. I tend to agree that C++ is awesome (in an IDE that isn't vendor-specific, with an opensource toolchain). I'd love to automate my build process on Linux and do nightlies for beta testers. My main reason for using Java is that I can't avoid using it in the future, on projects where I don't get to decide what language to use. I am interested in iOS development in the long run. I thought of concentrating on Windows for now, using OpenAL or XAudio2 with C++, and then combining a Mac and iOS project since both use Objective-C and OpenAL. The most prominent reason for not doing that is that I'm not comfortable buying a MacBook and spending big money on a developer account just yet, and XCode is really the way to go for Objective-C. Doing something in C++ would mostly remove the requirement for XCode, which is a good thing to me as I'd like to unify the development process as much as possible. Still, right now I'm leaning towards using Java since I already have a skeleton engine set up in that language and because it's so easy to debug code on the JVM. My only problem is with the ease of decompiling. There are solutions, most notably ahead-of-time compiling, but then you lose not only some advantages of the JVM, but also a huge heap of money. :) But then, I also remember how Thomas struggled to find the right language for MOTA and lost valuable time (I'm told there's still no final version 1 for that game?). Clearly you need to bite that bullet some day or be obscured in the fog of indecisiveness. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Draconis Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 17:06 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Chiming in on these cross-platform topics seems to be a common theme for me. LOL I have three points I’d like to make. First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn’t just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. Which leads me to my second point. There is an old saying: “Lies, damn lies, and statistics.” This could not apply to anything as well as it does to the statement that Android is more popular than iOS overall. It is technically true that Android is used in more devices, but that is because many of those devices are not, strictly speaking, Android devices. That is to say, they are not being used as portable computing devices like iOS devices are. Kindles, Nooks, many models of feature phones, and countless other gadgets, all get lumped into the Android user numbers, even though many of those devices are
Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More
Hi Davy and others, I wanted to stop by and briefly explain my current intentions for BGT. When I started developing it in late 2009, I had absolutely no idea how it would do financially. Now, 4 years down the line I can say that while sales have been reasonable considering the number of potential developers in the blind community, BGT is not and has never been something that I am going to get rich from. I never figured I would, either, but the truth is that it simply would not make sense for me to spend the amount of time and effort that would be involved porting it to a new platform. I am certainly not discounting Mac OS X/IOS as viable distribution channels. They are growing every day and I target them in all the mainstream projects that I am involved in at present. These other projects were written with cross platform support in mind from the get-go, while BGT was written exclusively for Windows. This means that BGT would require a major overhaul to be portable to other platforms, and I do not feel that an investment on such a scale would be viable at this point considering my current schedule. Had I decided to create an audio game engine at this time, it would certainly have been written with cross platform compatibility in mind from the start. This is not the case with BGT, however, and I cannot spend much more time and money developing it considering the sales figures it has been generating thus far. This certainly does not mean that BGT is going to be abandoned. Far from it. I still enjoy making games as a hobby from time to time, and for that, it works very well for my needs. But I will not be working on it full time as I did a year ago. So for those of you who have been hoping for a cross platform BGT release, I am sorry I can't bring more positive news. However I felt it was better to clearly announce my intentions as opposed to staying silent and leaving users to wonder and speculate. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:17 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Hi, With all due respect, but you really don't want to pick up coding in VB6 anymore. PureBasic I wouldn't know, I haven't looked at it before. With C++ (or Java) you really aren't coding from scratch. OpenAL has a C API, Java has an OpenAL wrapper, and of course there's DirectSound and XAudio2 which have their respective APIs. Oh, and Java's own sound API, which is good enough for basic stuff. I'm not even going to try and list all the third-party options. The one thing you will have to do yourself is resource management, but that is true for any language if you want to write efficient code that doesn't eat your system memory. And in C++ you'll require external libraries, dynamic or static, to do certain things. Java is a lot nicer in that regard, but as Thomas pointed out it takes less than a minute to get to the entire code-base of a project. Also, I haven't actually tried BGT myself. All I know about it comes from the website. I'm not criticizing it, only trying to find out what it can and cannot do. Cheers, Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2013 00:04 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] BGT, Mac and More Well davie, when danny and I were working on the deathmatch series danny found out we all did that there were limitations with bgt. Sertain things need to be written a sertain way. And the way we were expanding the deathmatch series was just really going outside of bgt's limits. deathmatch1 is not finnished to what it was going to be. There are so many issues with bgt and its limits and we came on them with saving, arrays and a lot of other things that we have exhausted the language. It was never meant for really large games at least we think so. The engine is good but there is a limit how much you can really do with it. Deathmatch1 was planned to have 10 missions or as many as we could put on. however by mission 3 danny was running out of ideas and as it was there were so many issues by this time. I can tell you we were going to have 4 missions but after all the issues danny has lost interest in that game and decided to end it as quickly as possible. Deathmatch2 started in pure basic but there are some issues to and so its visual basic 6. If you know c++ davie and can code with it then I suggest you stay with it if you can. I think danny and some others would like to learn but its a lot of work writing everything from scratch. However if you do use it on a daily basis I'd stay with that then I would stay with it. As for jawa, I do have java loaded. I've never had much fun with games based on it though. On the subject with sounds, music, etc. There is a way to do this, A lot of games
Re: [Audyssey] To Developers: Switching from DirectSound to OpenAL Soft
No but the people I work with for the deathmatch series do use fsl on purebasic which does have open al intigrated. The environmental and other effects do have a few echo issues, but over all are ok. I am not sure about anything else which is not purebasic. At 06:20 a.m. 14/12/2013, you wrote: Hi developers, I recently decided to switch from DirectSound to OpenAL Soft. I did this for 2 reasons: 1 Because OpenALSoft has built in HRTF support. 2 Because OpenAL Soft is cross platform. Right after I got the simplest of demo applications playing a simple sound I got terribly sick and have been in bed for the past few days. So as I wait until I am well enough to continue working on it I thought I'd ask if any other developers have advice on the subject. If you've used both DirectSound and OpenAL Soft you can probably give me the best information about what switching entails. But even if you've only used Open AL Soft I think there is a lot I could learn from you. Basically any advice about quirks, gotchas, and awesome benefits are appreciated. Also, it's my impression that the HRTF support is automatic and I don't need to enable it in code. Is this correct? Has anyone had real experience with the OpenAL Soft HRTF specifically? Is it any good? Is anyone using the original OpenAL instead of OpenAL Soft for 3D games? If so, why? OpenAL Soft also suggests installing OpenAL from Creative Labs first and then installing OpenAL Soft side by side to get some possible extra driver benefit. Does this matter in the real world? I heard that Creative Labs stopped updating OpenAL ages ago, which is why I wonder about the actual benefit. Again, I'm looking for help from people with actual OpenAL experience. Thanks for any help you can give. Ian Reed Try my free games at http://BlindAudioGames.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Josh, Not sure who the question was aimed at, but I'll answer it anyway. I've been thinking about Android game development. At least, looking into it. I am not willing to commit to developing for the platform, but I have both the skills and equipment to do it if I want to. The issue is a technical one here. As has been raised so many times developing software for the Android platform is a nightmare. Less than 2% of Android devices are running 4.4, and there is no way of knowing if someone is running a Samsung Galaxy S2, GalaxyS3, S4, or what version of Android they might be running. This causes no end to support and technical issues with running a game or app which is why it is less than ideal for a single developer to target the platform. The other issue is that in terms of blind users the lion's share of blind users have iOS. So ev en if I wanted to target Android I would be targeting a minority market in a minority market meaning that I'm not likely to make much money off of developing games for Android if I did so. As USA Games is a comercial company I don't think Android is really that much of a wise business decision for us right now. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: have you thought of developing for android like the nexus4 5 and 7 and samsng devices? using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Star Tradors
If a lot of people write to a developer wanting an app to be made accessible, this is not pestering. If one person continuously writes repeated requests, and sometimes demands, for accessibility, that would be pestering. If several people write with constructive suggestions and well worded intelligent requests, that will show an interest from a larger gaming community, showing the developer that it just might be worth his time and effort to modify the product for accessibility. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:01 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Star Tradors Hello Richard. You have actually preempted me here. The other day I mentioned talking to a developer about game access, well that developer was the lead dev of Trees brothers and the game was star traders (I've also at least begun exploring the question of their other games but let's not confused the issue). Yes, now the updates have been made to the Android version of the game to make the starmap accessible, and that is good for Android devices, however with the Iphone it is not the case that the developer is refusing or stalling, it's simply that they happened to work on the Android version first as that is the one which has sold most among their sighted customers. Apparently the financial situation of the company is not good at the moment, so they had to focus their efforts first on what will help their business, and since the access changes also include changes bennificial to sighted users that's fair enough. I personally would be against people mailing Trees brothers and pestering them for Iphone updates. I'm as eager as anyone for a complex Iphone space game, however the last thing we want is to irritate a developer who has already shown themselves capable of access changes and has agreed to make those changes in his own time. If there is no news on the Iphone version I'll certainly discuss matters with the developer in a few months myself, but irritating as it is for now we'll just have to wait, though I do encourage anyone who plays the game on Android to try the access changes and mail the developer with any encouragement. Hope this makes sense. All the best, Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hello. This is ron. For those of you who are mac users, is the game deoblo accessible for blind players? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi, To be perfectly fair, one can have a Mac mini for $600, which should lower the barrier somewhat. I don't know to what extent running Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware is legal, but I do know that it works using VMware Workstation, even on AMD processors. Not that you'd gain much in the financial area, VMware Workstation is far from cheap. Not to mention those legal problems (which I haven't researched). Personally I'd probably not use a MacBook as my main system. The keyboard misses some important keys, and I'd almost certainly Boot Camp it all the time except when developing. That type of use versus the $1200 or more for a MacBook makes it clear that they are not for me (yet). I would like to get a stable Linux desktop up and running, though. I'd probably use a virtual machine or discarded old computer for that, but still. It will be interesting to see how Java handles itself on these systems. Davy -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 18:11 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Davy, Well, for one thing to develop software for the Mac it requires purchasing a Mac. Both hardware and software. It is not legal to buy Mac OS X and run it in Virtualbox or in VMWare Player. Although, I have heard it can be done if you have the proper hardware to do it. Hardware is a sticking point for developers. Even if you want to virtualize Mac OS, legality not with standing, there are hardware issues to consider. I have read that if someone has an AMD64 processor, which I do, there is no way at all to run Mac OS X on that machine in Virtualbox or VMWare Player. So there is really little choice for me and I assume most other developers but to go out and pay for a Mac PC with Mac OS X. That will cost at least $1,200 or more. The cost of a Mac developer account just adds cost to the problem if a person wants or needs that service. I think it is $99 per year, which is cheaper than MSDN, but if a person doesn't have it to spend they don't have it to spend. One way, of course, to cut costs is to attempt to use a more cross-platform language and tools like Java, Python, whatever. I've developed my share of low cost apps in Java, love the language, but am still not sold on using Java for developing accessible games personally. As for Linux I use the operating system all the time, and I do not think adding the OS to my list of supported platforms would seriously impact my development costs or anyone else's for that matter. For one thing Linux is totally free, and someone can download Ubuntu, Sonar, Vinux, Fedora, Debian, etc for free, and get all the tools and documentation they need. Plus Linux can run side by side with windows on the same machine meaning there are no up front extra hardware costs involved in running and developing for the platform. Now, if someone owned a Mac and wanted to port to Windows there would certainly be costs involved, but it would be far less. One reason is all they would need to do is go out and buy Windows 7, run it in Bootcamp, and can get plenty of development tools for free. There is Visual Studio Express, the free MinGW compilers, the NVDA screen reader, etc to really cut costs in porting something from Mac to Windows. Then, if they chose to use Java that would also be a very low cost solution for the developer. So I believe going from Mac to Windows is over all cheaper than going from Windows to Mac if the person doesn't have the hardware and software required to begin with. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, One interesting point I see being raised over and over here is that developing for Mac adds cost on the developer's end. Without denying that statement, I'm curious to know what is meant here: - Cost of a physical Mac (because you don't like VirtualBox). - Cost of an Apple developer account (because you don't like cross-platform technologies). - Time spent learning Objective-C (because again you don't fancy going cross-platform in some other way). - Extra time spent optimizing your app for Mac OS (because the cross-platform tools you use turned out not to be as cross-platform as you believed). What about Linux: do you think that supporting that operating system adds an equal amount to your bill as would Mac OS? What if you owned only a Mac, developed only for Mac, and wanted to port to Windows? Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
If you don't have the bucks, you have to get what you can with what you have. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Josh, True, but there is a down side to buying cheap computers, and that is the hardware doesn't last long. I have owned many affordable e-machines for Windows and Linux, and I am here to say that in the main the hardware lasts about two years and dies. I'll give you an example here. The Compaq Presario I am using right now has had numerous hardware replacements in the five years since I purchased it from Walmart. First the CD/DVD drive died and needed replaced, the keyboard stopped working and needed replaced, the power supply had to be replaced, and now it looks like I am going to have to get a new case fan for the laptop case. I don't know what cheap parts Compaq, AKA HP, is using in there budget machines but I have had more problems with this laptop than I have ever had with a more expensive system. the point I am getting at is I know people with Mac's who purchased their laptop right about the same time I got this Compaq and have had less troubles with the hardware in that PC than I have had. The deciding factor is that they paid about $1500 for their laptops and I paid about $500 for mine. So I do believe you get what you pay for, and when it comes to reliability Mac's do pay off in less down time. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you can get a great windows7 machine from blaire technology group for $190 or around $200. take off the back pannel put 4 more gigs of ram in and you are good to go. using windows7 laptop --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
First, a response to the initial question of this thread, then a few comments about the thread overall. *snip* Just red this quote from the list: Start quote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. End quote Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs are outselling windows machines? Where are you getting those numbers? Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. *snip* Yes, you are entirely misunderstanding the quote. Mac sales of Draconis titles have far exceeded sales of Windows versions, including in the hay day of Draconis/Adora/ESP Softworks. I thought that would be clear in context, but apparently not. This is for a variety of reasons. More and more visually impaired users are using Macs for the superior experience/accessibility they provide. A disproportionate number of new visually impaired Mac users are in the younger demographic, which is the demographic that is most likely to purchase games. The Mac audio game market is severely under served at the moment, which makes it a market with high demand. Mac users, like iOS users, have a greater tendency to be willing to pay for software, and it is more difficult to pirate software from the App Stores. And the reasons go on and on. The rest of this thread is so full of myths and misinformation about Macs and Apple that have been disproven countless times over the years that there doesn’t seem to be much point in rehashing the same old discussion. People will believe what they want to believe, even if it flies in the face of reality. The funny thing is, that the mainstream tech doesn’t even try to pass these myths over anymore. They are old, tired, and false, and legitimate tech journalists and reviewers know that, and no longer tout them…at least, not those who care about being reputable. PC World, for example, has for many, many times over the years listed MacBooks at the best laptops for running Windows. There’s a reason folks, and just saying that Macs are expensive does not make it true. It is true that Apple refuses to make junk, though. Macs are very comparably priced to PC’s of equal quality. Apple simply chooses not to make cheap machines that fall apart and/or stop working in a year or two. Your accessibility is built in and fantastic, making them actually less expensive than a PC/commercial screen reader combination. Macs have far greater life spans than PC’s and can be upgraded to the latest versions of the OS for far longer periods of time than Windows machines. The costs of maintenance and management have been covered by others in this thread. You get what you pay for with almost everything in this world. You can choose to eat out at McDonald’s everyday, or have a nice steak dinner at a fancy restaurant once a month. You can choose to have the illusion of getting a better deal and replace your computer every two years, instead of buying a Mac that will last 6 years or even longer. My father has been using the same Mac since 2005. Since I became a Mac user in 2005, I’ve had to upgrade once, and I’m hard on my machines. And, as the mainstream media has covered time and time again, using the “fanboy” label is just a way of dismissing those who disagree with you, and not having to actually have a discussion with them. To those people, enjoy your PC’s and the added costs they entail. The upshot of all of this is just what I said above. You get what you pay for. Can you get comparable PC hardware for a comparable price? Sure. You cannot get comparable hardware for less though. And Mac has other advantages beyond that. Macs are not necessarily right for everyone. People have different needs, desires, and so on. But the misinfo is tiresome. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi, i'll answer the questions under each question. 1. How long do you think it'll last? about 4 or 5 years, my previous toshiba lasted that long, and only died cause the person i gave it too managed to kill the system somehow. lol. otherwise it would still be with me. 2. How much do you think you'll get when you try to flog that when bits of it stop working or when you need something faster? i don't flog computers. i use them till they drop. i rarely ever sell a computer on, less somebody really needs it. and what's more, is that this is toshiba. every toshiba i have sunk money into, has lasted longer then useless acers and such computers. 3. How good is it to handle in daily use? it is more then amazing. it's light, although obviously for it's power, it's not an ultrabook, it's not too bad on weight. generates little heat, and has a huge fan port that can spin up and cool the system quite well if it gets a little warm during some heavy work. and is mind blowingly fast. 4. How much do you enjoy using it? a lot. it's an awesome system. i sometimes run osX in a vm, as well as having multiple things open in windows, including skype, chicken nugget, firefox, winamp, and so on. and it handles things perfectly! it's amazingly fast. if i go to most other computers now, they feel slow. lol. 5. How much time do you spend managing it? very little. no more then you would with a mac. 6. How much money have you spent on necessary extras, like antivirus software and an Office suite? necessary? ... nothing. as windows 8 has it's own virus and malware scanner, that works very well. and i don't use office, so i don't buy it. i use either jarte for a word processor, or notepad if just quickly having to mess with a txt file opened from explorer. 7. How do you think the vendor provides support for it? quite well, though not as well as apple of course. the apple phone support is, generally, though not always, better. but toshiba are farely good. they were able to solve my questions i had for me quite well and quickly. and without charging me for asking the questions, as apple will do if you do not have apple care for your product, which is yet more of a cost on top of an apple device. 8. How much crap did you have to remove from it? little. it came with all the toshiba tools, and little else. i got rid of the few things that needed to go, but i think there were only 2 things i had to get rid of this time. 9. How upgradable is it, both hardware and software wise? software wise, i've already upgraded it to windows 8.1, very quickly and easy. hardware wise, i can upgrade the ram or hard drive, and probably the opticle drive if i really wanted to. not sure how much more is upgradeable. haven't really bothered to check. i thought i was going to upgrade it, but as fast as it is, i haven't really wanted to yet. though i will at some point put in an SSD. this of course, is far more then you can upgrade current model macbooks. which you can't upgrade much at all, excepting the software. with good reason, mind you. having gone super thin, they have moved to using bare componants, rather then full ones. for example. the SSD's they are using, are circuits, mounted directly to the main board. 10. How do you restore it to clean factory condition? with windows 8 reset feature. don't get me wrong. i'm not saying mac's are a bad thing. they aren't. for what you pay, you get something that is very light, fantastic battery life, and can still run windows. they have pritty good support from apple, but only if you pay for it. and i may yet buy one. probably in a couple of years, if they upgrade them a bit more in the mean time. the upgradeability is ultimately the problem with a mac. most of them, you can't upgrade at all. once you buy it with x y z configuration, that's it. your stuck with it. but that is less and less of a problem these days. most people are happy with what they get in a system. but, we'll see. i have the iPad mini now, and i think that will probably be enough of a buy from apple for at least the next year or two. lol. except perhaps the next iPhone. which will have been a generation jump for me, as i have the iPhone 5. thing is though, if i do buy a mac, i'll still have to buy windows for it. unless i just run windows on one machine, and leave the mac as osx only. but that seems a little of a pointless buy then. if this machine is still going, which it should be, i'm not sure there's any point to buying another machine. still, one options i've considdered, is a mac mini. though upgrading the hdd in those is a pain. you have to strip out almost every part inside it, to get to the hard drives. compair that to upgrading the ram, which is right on top when you open it up. hahaha. anoying, apple? and the other point is that it hasn't got a battery. lol. i've grown used to computers not dieing if i have to unplug for a while, such as during a storm, or if the power gos out, which it does a lot
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Regarding the development cost of Windows apps: as a Mac user I feel that Visual Studio Express is, while certainly useful for .net development, somewhat annoyingly crippled for Win32 development. It doesn't have MFC or resource editors, for example. You can somewhat work around this, though not without breaking the workflow pretty badly and possibly getting into legal trouble if ever you go commercial. And the garden path solution is naturally very expensive, direct from Microsoft. So as a Mac user, I think the development costs are pretty well reined in, once you've got the box. Just wanted to chuck that in. Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I wouldn't think so. None of the Winblows versions I ever tried were. And just a slight correction onthe name, it's Diablo, not Dioblo. Smile. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Ron hopkins Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 10:39 AM To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hello. This is ron. For those of you who are mac users, is the game deoblo accessible for blind players? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Toshiba is definitely a good brand overall. My current laptop is a Toshiba that I've had for four years.About the only ting wrong with it is that the tab key is missing and Disk Defragmenter won't open, but it still lets me play games. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Dallas O'Brien Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:18 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question hi, i'll answer the questions under each question. 1. How long do you think it'll last? about 4 or 5 years, my previous toshiba lasted that long, and only died cause the person i gave it too managed to kill the system somehow. lol. otherwise it would still be with me. 2. How much do you think you'll get when you try to flog that when bits of it stop working or when you need something faster? i don't flog computers. i use them till they drop. i rarely ever sell a computer on, less somebody really needs it. and what's more, is that this is toshiba. every toshiba i have sunk money into, has lasted longer then useless acers and such computers. 3. How good is it to handle in daily use? it is more then amazing. it's light, although obviously for it's power, it's not an ultrabook, it's not too bad on weight. generates little heat, and has a huge fan port that can spin up and cool the system quite well if it gets a little warm during some heavy work. and is mind blowingly fast. 4. How much do you enjoy using it? a lot. it's an awesome system. i sometimes run osX in a vm, as well as having multiple things open in windows, including skype, chicken nugget, firefox, winamp, and so on. and it handles things perfectly! it's amazingly fast. if i go to most other computers now, they feel slow. lol. 5. How much time do you spend managing it? very little. no more then you would with a mac. 6. How much money have you spent on necessary extras, like antivirus software and an Office suite? necessary? ... nothing. as windows 8 has it's own virus and malware scanner, that works very well. and i don't use office, so i don't buy it. i use either jarte for a word processor, or notepad if just quickly having to mess with a txt file opened from explorer. 7. How do you think the vendor provides support for it? quite well, though not as well as apple of course. the apple phone support is, generally, though not always, better. but toshiba are farely good. they were able to solve my questions i had for me quite well and quickly. and without charging me for asking the questions, as apple will do if you do not have apple care for your product, which is yet more of a cost on top of an apple device. 8. How much crap did you have to remove from it? little. it came with all the toshiba tools, and little else. i got rid of the few things that needed to go, but i think there were only 2 things i had to get rid of this time. 9. How upgradable is it, both hardware and software wise? software wise, i've already upgraded it to windows 8.1, very quickly and easy. hardware wise, i can upgrade the ram or hard drive, and probably the opticle drive if i really wanted to. not sure how much more is upgradeable. haven't really bothered to check. i thought i was going to upgrade it, but as fast as it is, i haven't really wanted to yet. though i will at some point put in an SSD. this of course, is far more then you can upgrade current model macbooks. which you can't upgrade much at all, excepting the software. with good reason, mind you. having gone super thin, they have moved to using bare componants, rather then full ones. for example. the SSD's they are using, are circuits, mounted directly to the main board. 10. How do you restore it to clean factory condition? with windows 8 reset feature. don't get me wrong. i'm not saying mac's are a bad thing. they aren't. for what you pay, you get something that is very light, fantastic battery life, and can still run windows. they have pritty good support from apple, but only if you pay for it. and i may yet buy one. probably in a couple of years, if they upgrade them a bit more in the mean time. the upgradeability is ultimately the problem with a mac. most of them, you can't upgrade at all. once you buy it with x y z configuration, that's it. your stuck with it. but that is less and less of a problem these days. most people are happy with what they get in a system. but, we'll see. i have the iPad mini now, and i think that will probably be enough of a buy from apple for at least the next year or two. lol. except perhaps the next iPhone. which will have been a generation jump for me, as i have the iPhone 5. thing is though, if i do buy a mac, i'll still have to buy windows for it. unless i just run windows on one machine, and leave the mac as osx only. but that seems a little of a pointless buy then. if this machine is still going, which it should be, i'm not sure there's any point to buying another machine.
Re: [Audyssey] Soul Trapper Chapter 18 Revisited
I would groan, but I’ve told many other people this regarding other games, so I get a taste of my own medicine. It’s just not second nature to me. Every three months or so I dust it off and figure I can deal with all the prefatory conversations before the actual fight, since there’s no way to skip them, and try again. Hoo boy. Thanks, guys. :) Teresa On the other hand, there are different fingers. On Dec 13, 2013, at 4:16 PM, Teresa Cochran vegaspipistre...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, all, This chapter has been nagging at me for years. I can play every other level, but parrying in this sword fight is a mystery to me. Has anyone else figured out how to solve it? I get the same results whether VO is on or off. I know I’m pressing the right buttons. Sometimes with VO on, I don’t even have to double tap the button. I’m suspecting it could be a timing issue, which would make it darned realistic. I’d love to hear from anyone else who’s solved it. Thanks, Teresa On the other hand, there are different fingers. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Davy, True, but as I recall the Mac Mini doesn't come with a monitor etc. That still needs to be purchased separately so right there when you add the cost of a monitor and whatever else you want we are looking at $800 to $1000 to outfit yourself with a Mac. I can't speak as to VMWare Workstation, because I don't have it, but I did try someone's Mac OS X disc on VMWare Player and got nowhere with it. So add that to the legal issues and it is a pain in the butt for a Windows developer to develop anything for Mac. As far as Java and Linux goes it does depend on JVM. You can have the official Oracle JRE, or you can get the stock open source JRE. Both work, but I tend to trust the official Oracle JRE more for development and testing. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, To be perfectly fair, one can have a Mac mini for $600, which should lower the barrier somewhat. I don't know to what extent running Mac OS X on non-Apple hardware is legal, but I do know that it works using VMware Workstation, even on AMD processors. Not that you'd gain much in the financial area, VMware Workstation is far from cheap. Not to mention those legal problems (which I haven't researched). Personally I'd probably not use a MacBook as my main system. The keyboard misses some important keys, and I'd almost certainly Boot Camp it all the time except when developing. That type of use versus the $1200 or more for a MacBook makes it clear that they are not for me (yet). I would like to get a stable Linux desktop up and running, though. I'd probably use a virtual machine or discarded old computer for that, but still. It will be interesting to see how Java handles itself on these systems. Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Bryan, I would agree with that. Toshiba is over all a good brand, and the main reason I had to have mine serviced is because it got knocked off the desk and it hit the floor and broke. Otherwise I think it would have outlasted this Compaq which hasn't been dropped and has practically had hardware issue after hardware issue. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: Toshiba is definitely a good brand overall. My current laptop is a Toshiba that I've had for four years.About the only ting wrong with it is that the tab key is missing and Disk Defragmenter won't open, but it still lets me play games. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Sabahattin, What you say about Visual Studio Express is all too true. For a C++ developer and Win32 development it is seriously crippled. It is not just the lack of MFC but there are ATL libraries etc you don't get either. To be honest I see Visual Studio Express more for students, amateur developers, and anyone who needs a cheap IDE and compiler. If someone really wants to do pro game development they should upgrade to Visual Studio Pro to get everything they need. That will of course cost like $600 or so which definitely drives up the cost. The alternative is to go with Codeblocks and MinGW. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com wrote: Regarding the development cost of Windows apps: as a Mac user I feel that Visual Studio Express is, while certainly useful for .net development, somewhat annoyingly crippled for Win32 development. It doesn't have MFC or resource editors, for example. You can somewhat work around this, though not without breaking the workflow pretty badly and possibly getting into legal trouble if ever you go commercial. And the garden path solution is naturally very expensive, direct from Microsoft. So as a Mac user, I think the development costs are pretty well reined in, once you've got the box. Just wanted to chuck that in. Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
So are Acer and Asus and as for your defragmentation issue try Defraggler from www.piriform.com On 14/12/2013 18:46, Bryan Peterson wrote: Toshiba is definitely a good brand overall. My current laptop is a Toshiba that I've had for four years.About the only ting wrong with it is that the tab key is missing and Disk Defragmenter won't open, but it still lets me play games. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Dallas O'Brien Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 11:18 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question hi, i'll answer the questions under each question. 1. How long do you think it'll last? about 4 or 5 years, my previous toshiba lasted that long, and only died cause the person i gave it too managed to kill the system somehow. lol. otherwise it would still be with me. 2. How much do you think you'll get when you try to flog that when bits of it stop working or when you need something faster? i don't flog computers. i use them till they drop. i rarely ever sell a computer on, less somebody really needs it. and what's more, is that this is toshiba. every toshiba i have sunk money into, has lasted longer then useless acers and such computers. 3. How good is it to handle in daily use? it is more then amazing. it's light, although obviously for it's power, it's not an ultrabook, it's not too bad on weight. generates little heat, and has a huge fan port that can spin up and cool the system quite well if it gets a little warm during some heavy work. and is mind blowingly fast. 4. How much do you enjoy using it? a lot. it's an awesome system. i sometimes run osX in a vm, as well as having multiple things open in windows, including skype, chicken nugget, firefox, winamp, and so on. and it handles things perfectly! it's amazingly fast. if i go to most other computers now, they feel slow. lol. 5. How much time do you spend managing it? very little. no more then you would with a mac. 6. How much money have you spent on necessary extras, like antivirus software and an Office suite? necessary? ... nothing. as windows 8 has it's own virus and malware scanner, that works very well. and i don't use office, so i don't buy it. i use either jarte for a word processor, or notepad if just quickly having to mess with a txt file opened from explorer. 7. How do you think the vendor provides support for it? quite well, though not as well as apple of course. the apple phone support is, generally, though not always, better. but toshiba are farely good. they were able to solve my questions i had for me quite well and quickly. and without charging me for asking the questions, as apple will do if you do not have apple care for your product, which is yet more of a cost on top of an apple device. 8. How much crap did you have to remove from it? little. it came with all the toshiba tools, and little else. i got rid of the few things that needed to go, but i think there were only 2 things i had to get rid of this time. 9. How upgradable is it, both hardware and software wise? software wise, i've already upgraded it to windows 8.1, very quickly and easy. hardware wise, i can upgrade the ram or hard drive, and probably the opticle drive if i really wanted to. not sure how much more is upgradeable. haven't really bothered to check. i thought i was going to upgrade it, but as fast as it is, i haven't really wanted to yet. though i will at some point put in an SSD. this of course, is far more then you can upgrade current model macbooks. which you can't upgrade much at all, excepting the software. with good reason, mind you. having gone super thin, they have moved to using bare componants, rather then full ones. for example. the SSD's they are using, are circuits, mounted directly to the main board. 10. How do you restore it to clean factory condition? with windows 8 reset feature. don't get me wrong. i'm not saying mac's are a bad thing. they aren't. for what you pay, you get something that is very light, fantastic battery life, and can still run windows. they have pritty good support from apple, but only if you pay for it. and i may yet buy one. probably in a couple of years, if they upgrade them a bit more in the mean time. the upgradeability is ultimately the problem with a mac. most of them, you can't upgrade at all. once you buy it with x y z configuration, that's it. your stuck with it. but that is less and less of a problem these days. most people are happy with what they get in a system. but, we'll see. i have the iPad mini now, and i think that will probably be enough of a buy from apple for at least the next year or two. lol. except perhaps the next iPhone. which will have been a generation jump for me, as i have the iPhone 5. thing is though, if i do buy a mac, i'll still have to buy windows for it. unless i just run windows on one machine, and leave the mac as osx only. but that seems a little
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Fun that you should mention that, Thomas: as a student I have been legally using Visual Studio Professional free of charge for a few years now. I never realized how crippled the Express edetion can be. Apple is definitely doing a good job providing their IDE for free, to anyone. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 22:14 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Sabahattin, What you say about Visual Studio Express is all too true. For a C++ developer and Win32 development it is seriously crippled. It is not just the lack of MFC but there are ATL libraries etc you don't get either. To be honest I see Visual Studio Express more for students, amateur developers, and anyone who needs a cheap IDE and compiler. If someone really wants to do pro game development they should upgrade to Visual Studio Pro to get everything they need. That will of course cost like $600 or so which definitely drives up the cost. The alternative is to go with Codeblocks and MinGW. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com wrote: Regarding the development cost of Windows apps: as a Mac user I feel that Visual Studio Express is, while certainly useful for .net development, somewhat annoyingly crippled for Win32 development. It doesn't have MFC or resource editors, for example. You can somewhat work around this, though not without breaking the workflow pretty badly and possibly getting into legal trouble if ever you go commercial. And the garden path solution is naturally very expensive, direct from Microsoft. So as a Mac user, I think the development costs are pretty well reined in, once you've got the box. Just wanted to chuck that in. Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Josh and all, Fair enough, sorry I misunderstood what you were posting there, my bad. That is very interesting that your mac sales are far outstripping windows sales, I would be curious to know the numbers there, but I completely understand if you'd rather keep it under your hat. I have put up Rail Racer 2 for sale, where folks can buy the beta and get all upgrades as it reaches final release, and sales have been far more impressive than I thought they would be so far, so still plenty of folks wanting accessible games for windows at this point. I may yet get to a point where I've earned over $2 an hour for the coding and tech support time, hah. I have no idea how many of these folks are running windows on mac, that would be a good thing to know, I might set up a poll on audio games and see what the response is. The last time I did some informal polling, windows users outstripped mac users in the blind community at least 10 to 1, but those are slippery numbers for several reasons, including what you are saying about mac purchasers being more willing to fork over cash for their gaming experience. I completely agree that the appple hardware is more solid than the same price point PC hardware, the stuff is just rock solid. I have a mac book pro, and hav had zero issues with it. I just wish apple would spend some more time on their voiceover interface, it is to me cumbersome in a lot of areas for no good reason. For instance, why two keys for VO by default? I realize you can use the touch pad, and the quick nav is a way better way to go as well, but man, some of their interface decisions are just baffling. Having to drill up and down into Xcode over and over and over is just ridiculous to me. Even with quick nav, I have to move my hands off the main keys, then press two arrow keys to drill up or down, then back again, there is just no good reason for this much of a waste of time, I don't get it. Having developed with visual studio, then going to Xcode with voiceover feels like going from running to crawling. I know a large part of that is me not being nearly as familiar with Xcode, but having worked with it for months now, its still frustrating, and it seems to me unnecessarily so. I am sure there are many shortcuts and work arounds that I just haven't learned yet, and I plan to keep knawing at it, as I am convinced the future of accessible gaming is in mobile platforms, and specifically iOS, at least until and if google gets it together for the android platform. I would like to ask if anyone out there has an email list or forum or anything they would recommend for a blind developer getting into developing for iOS. I have some questions that relate directly to developing using voiceover, and I'm not sure the best place to ask. Thanks much for any advice, Che Email: blindadrenal...@gmail.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Davy, Well, what I mentioned is a small sampling of things missing in the express edition. There are actually quite a number of things missing in VS Express that you get with VS Pro, and while I don't want to list them all here do to time constraints it is safe to say VS Express is very limited. One thing I find very aggravating is you can not change the target platform with VS Express. When you get it the only platform is Win32 projects for x86 processors. So as most machines now are x64 processors one should be able to specifically target those processors and platforms, but it is not an option in VS Express. At least not the version I use which is 2010. So I still have to use VS Pro 2008 as I don't have the finances to upgrade to a newer version of Visual Studio Pro right now. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Fun that you should mention that, Thomas: as a student I have been legally using Visual Studio Professional free of charge for a few years now. I never realized how crippled the Express edetion can be. Apple is definitely doing a good job providing their IDE for free, to anyone. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Tom, Unless you have someone sighted planning on using the Mac mini also, you can use it perfectly well without a monitor. I did that for years. You can also buy adapters for many kinds of older desktop monitors, so if you already have a monitor hanging around, there’s a good chance it could be used with the mini. But purchasing a monitor is in no way a requirement for a VO users of a Mac mini. On Dec 14, 2013, at 3:56 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Davy, True, but as I recall the Mac Mini doesn't come with a monitor etc. That still needs to be purchased separately so right there when you add the cost of a monitor and whatever else you want we are looking at $800 to $1000 to outfit yourself with a Mac. I can't speak as to VMWare Workstation, because I don't have it, but I did try someone's Mac OS X disc on VMWare Player and got nowhere with it. So add that to the legal issues and it is a pain in the butt for a Windows developer to develop anything for Mac. As far as Java and Linux goes it does depend on JVM. You can have the official Oracle JRE, or you can get the stock open source JRE. Both work, but I tend to trust the official Oracle JRE more for development and testing. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
hi Che, from messing around with OSX in a vm, i learned one thing. apple has added in a numpad commander. this makes navigating around the system farely quick and painless. feels a bit like nvda in some ways. except you don't need to use a modifyer. 6 and 4 become similar to VO right and VO left. 9 becomes interact, 7 becomes uninteract. numpad 5 becomes similar to a double tap on the trackpad / activate item with normal VO commands. and so on. you can also map the other numpad keys to various functions. you turn the numpad commander on, by holding the VO keys down, and pressing the numlock key. this of course, means you will have to either use the wired apple keyboard that you can buy, or preferably, a standard external keyboard. i use a wireless one, but you could of course use a wired one if you wanted. the advantage to this, compared to using quick nav, is that for example. when you want to type in an edit field, you won't face problems with quicknav getting in the way of certain key presses. so it makes entry and navigation a lot more smooth. of course, unless you map a key on the numpad to navigate to next heading and so on, this will mean you will have to use such commands as VO H to navigate to next headings and so on in safari. but its easy to map a key on the numpad to go to next heading. also, when numpad commander is on, pressing numlock is defaulted to taking you straight to the dock. so there is another handy fast way of getting around. press the numlock, type the first letter, or first couple of letters of what you want from your dock, and hit enter to open it. Good luck with RR2. i'll be buying it in a few days, when my money comes in. can't wait! regards: Dallas On 15/12/2013, Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Josh and all, Fair enough, sorry I misunderstood what you were posting there, my bad. That is very interesting that your mac sales are far outstripping windows sales, I would be curious to know the numbers there, but I completely understand if you'd rather keep it under your hat. I have put up Rail Racer 2 for sale, where folks can buy the beta and get all upgrades as it reaches final release, and sales have been far more impressive than I thought they would be so far, so still plenty of folks wanting accessible games for windows at this point. I may yet get to a point where I've earned over $2 an hour for the coding and tech support time, hah. I have no idea how many of these folks are running windows on mac, that would be a good thing to know, I might set up a poll on audio games and see what the response is. The last time I did some informal polling, windows users outstripped mac users in the blind community at least 10 to 1, but those are slippery numbers for several reasons, including what you are saying about mac purchasers being more willing to fork over cash for their gaming experience. I completely agree that the appple hardware is more solid than the same price point PC hardware, the stuff is just rock solid. I have a mac book pro, and hav had zero issues with it. I just wish apple would spend some more time on their voiceover interface, it is to me cumbersome in a lot of areas for no good reason. For instance, why two keys for VO by default? I realize you can use the touch pad, and the quick nav is a way better way to go as well, but man, some of their interface decisions are just baffling. Having to drill up and down into Xcode over and over and over is just ridiculous to me. Even with quick nav, I have to move my hands off the main keys, then press two arrow keys to drill up or down, then back again, there is just no good reason for this much of a waste of time, I don't get it. Having developed with visual studio, then going to Xcode with voiceover feels like going from running to crawling. I know a large part of that is me not being nearly as familiar with Xcode, but having worked with it for months now, its still frustrating, and it seems to me unnecessarily so. I am sure there are many shortcuts and work arounds that I just haven't learned yet, and I plan to keep knawing at it, as I am convinced the future of accessible gaming is in mobile platforms, and specifically iOS, at least until and if google gets it together for the android platform. I would like to ask if anyone out there has an email list or forum or anything they would recommend for a blind developer getting into developing for iOS. I have some questions that relate directly to developing using voiceover, and I'm not sure the best place to ask. Thanks much for any advice, Che Email: blindadrenal...@gmail.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be
[Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi ya phil, Yeah man, as a commercial entity selling to a very limited market, the price point of iOS games is a concern. As you mentioned, , while it is true that a release of an iOS title will far out sale the same title for mac or windows, at what price will it be offered ? You said you have purchased over 40 games, but you've probably spent less than you would have for 2 premium mac or windows games I would think? True, the games for mobile devices don't offer nearly the depth or replayability of a quality premium mac or PC title, but even if it did, what would folks pay for it? For instance, , I think Jeremy could have easily sold swamp for $50 a license and moved at the very minimum 250 units, but what would he get for it on iOS with the same features? Of course, you'd need a bluetooth keyboard hooked up to your iOS device to get the same features, but you catch my drift. In the very limited market of accessible games, even if one sold a couple thousand copies at a buck a piece, a developer wouldn't even be approaching minimum wage per hour most likely. And if an accessible developer tried to sell a game for $15 or $20, I think a great deal of potential purchasers would scream rip off, because they are used to the super low price of most apps, not considering most of those apps are selling to tens of thousands of customers. This is not to say its all about money, nobody develops accessible games to get rich, but it is nice to get a few ounces of dough coming in for tons of hard work. I am personally hoping to release a set of educational apps for blind kids for free once I learn xCode. After that, I may look more closely at the commercial market, including micro purchases for in game upgrades, etc. No matter what, it is an interesting time for accessible gaming me thinks, as mister Zimmerman so concisely put it, the times they are a changin'. Take care, Che -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:16 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Che, I am sure Josh is talking about his mac games are outselling his windows games. I am sure when Draconis develops a full IOS game for iPhone and iPad, that will outsell the other two combined. I just got my iPhone two months ago and already have purcheased over forty games on it. True, they are in the $0.99 and 1.99 price point. - Original Message - From: Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:18 AM Subject: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi ya, Just red this quote from the list: Start quote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. End quote Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs are outselling windows machines? Where are you getting those numbers? Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, that is surprising news to me. I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the PC, but last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be anywhere near outselling windows machines. If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a large bet on that, had a wager been presented to my degenerate gambling self. Here is what I dug up quickly on google before going to bed: In an interview with Computerworld, Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi says a major OS shift is coming. By 2015, she predicts, devices running Apple operating systems will overtake those running Windows. Last year, shipments of products running Windows still handily outnumbered those running Mac OS and iOS, by 347 million to 213 million, according to figures from Gartner published Monday. The lead will be slashed to 23 million in 2014, and the Apple OSes will likely outnumber Windows devices in 2015, said Carolina Milanesi, research vice president at Gartner. End article clip So based on those numbers, even throwing in the mobile iOS into the mac equation, windows is outselling them, strip out iOS and those numbers get far more out of balance when we're talking windows versus mac straight up. Obviously on the mobile side of things, apple is owning microsoft, but if we're talking macs versus windows, i.e. desktops and laptops, its not even close, and won't be for many years to
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi, This is where developing games for multiple types of people comes into play here I think. Look at the various audio games that there are out there on IOS for example? How many of them were developed specifically for blind people yet sighted people play them? Take the blindness lable away and simply make them accessible then you have your target audience. Freak is an example of this. the idea isn't to simply create games for blind people specifically but to create games for all that blind people can play. This to me is where the accessible markets fall flat because the developers are not doing this. With windows, take smugglers for example. The developer was approached, he agreed and made it accessible. There you go. -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Che Martin Sent: 14 December 2013 22:30 To: 'Gamers Discussion list' Subject: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows Hi ya phil, Yeah man, as a commercial entity selling to a very limited market, the price point of iOS games is a concern. As you mentioned, , while it is true that a release of an iOS title will far out sale the same title for mac or windows, at what price will it be offered ? You said you have purchased over 40 games, but you've probably spent less than you would have for 2 premium mac or windows games I would think? True, the games for mobile devices don't offer nearly the depth or replayability of a quality premium mac or PC title, but even if it did, what would folks pay for it? For instance, , I think Jeremy could have easily sold swamp for $50 a license and moved at the very minimum 250 units, but what would he get for it on iOS with the same features? Of course, you'd need a bluetooth keyboard hooked up to your iOS device to get the same features, but you catch my drift. In the very limited market of accessible games, even if one sold a couple thousand copies at a buck a piece, a developer wouldn't even be approaching minimum wage per hour most likely. And if an accessible developer tried to sell a game for $15 or $20, I think a great deal of potential purchasers would scream rip off, because they are used to the super low price of most apps, not considering most of those apps are selling to tens of thousands of customers. This is not to say its all about money, nobody develops accessible games to get rich, but it is nice to get a few ounces of dough coming in for tons of hard work. I am personally hoping to release a set of educational apps for blind kids for free once I learn xCode. After that, I may look more closely at the commercial market, including micro purchases for in game upgrades, etc. No matter what, it is an interesting time for accessible gaming me thinks, as mister Zimmerman so concisely put it, the times they are a changin'. Take care, Che -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Phil Vlasak Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:16 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Che, I am sure Josh is talking about his mac games are outselling his windows games. I am sure when Draconis develops a full IOS game for iPhone and iPad, that will outsell the other two combined. I just got my iPhone two months ago and already have purcheased over forty games on it. True, they are in the $0.99 and 1.99 price point. - Original Message - From: Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:18 AM Subject: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi ya, Just red this quote from the list: Start quote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. End quote Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs are outselling windows machines? Where are you getting those numbers? Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, that is surprising news to me. I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the PC, but last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be anywhere near outselling windows machines. If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a large bet on that, had a wager been presented to my degenerate gambling self. Here is what I dug up quickly on google before going to bed: In an interview with
[Audyssey] voiceover interface on mac, was:RE: mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi dallas, Thanks for that info man. I remember now reading something about the num pad commander, but never did check it out, no excuse for my laziness there. I do have an external bluetooth keyboard by logiTech, which is awesome by the way, you can assign it to three different devices, so for instance I can hit the f 2 key and use it for my apple TV, then f 1 to go back to the mac book, very cool. The keyboard does not have a num pad on it however. I suppose there are bluetooth num pads one could purchase, any idea? Sorry if this seems off topic, I guess technically it is, but it impacts me as a game developer, hope that gets us a pass. Take care, Che -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Dallas O'Brien Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 4:10 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question hi Che, from messing around with OSX in a vm, i learned one thing. apple has added in a numpad commander. this makes navigating around the system farely quick and painless. feels a bit like nvda in some ways. except you don't need to use a modifyer. 6 and 4 become similar to VO right and VO left. 9 becomes interact, 7 becomes uninteract. numpad 5 becomes similar to a double tap on the trackpad / activate item with normal VO commands. and so on. you can also map the other numpad keys to various functions. you turn the numpad commander on, by holding the VO keys down, and pressing the numlock key. this of course, means you will have to either use the wired apple keyboard that you can buy, or preferably, a standard external keyboard. i use a wireless one, but you could of course use a wired one if you wanted. the advantage to this, compared to using quick nav, is that for example. when you want to type in an edit field, you won't face problems with quicknav getting in the way of certain key presses. so it makes entry and navigation a lot more smooth. of course, unless you map a key on the numpad to navigate to next heading and so on, this will mean you will have to use such commands as VO H to navigate to next headings and so on in safari. but its easy to map a key on the numpad to go to next heading. also, when numpad commander is on, pressing numlock is defaulted to taking you straight to the dock. so there is another handy fast way of getting around. press the numlock, type the first letter, or first couple of letters of what you want from your dock, and hit enter to open it. Good luck with RR2. i'll be buying it in a few days, when my money comes in. can't wait! regards: Dallas On 15/12/2013, Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Josh and all, Fair enough, sorry I misunderstood what you were posting there, my bad. That is very interesting that your mac sales are far outstripping windows sales, I would be curious to know the numbers there, but I completely understand if you'd rather keep it under your hat. I have put up Rail Racer 2 for sale, where folks can buy the beta and get all upgrades as it reaches final release, and sales have been far more impressive than I thought they would be so far, so still plenty of folks wanting accessible games for windows at this point. I may yet get to a point where I've earned over $2 an hour for the coding and tech support time, hah. I have no idea how many of these folks are running windows on mac, that would be a good thing to know, I might set up a poll on audio games and see what the response is. The last time I did some informal polling, windows users outstripped mac users in the blind community at least 10 to 1, but those are slippery numbers for several reasons, including what you are saying about mac purchasers being more willing to fork over cash for their gaming experience. I completely agree that the appple hardware is more solid than the same price point PC hardware, the stuff is just rock solid. I have a mac book pro, and hav had zero issues with it. I just wish apple would spend some more time on their voiceover interface, it is to me cumbersome in a lot of areas for no good reason. For instance, why two keys for VO by default? I realize you can use the touch pad, and the quick nav is a way better way to go as well, but man, some of their interface decisions are just baffling. Having to drill up and down into Xcode over and over and over is just ridiculous to me. Even with quick nav, I have to move my hands off the main keys, then press two arrow keys to drill up or down, then back again, there is just no good reason for this much of a waste of time, I don't get it. Having developed with visual studio, then going to Xcode with voiceover feels like going from running to crawling. I know a large part of that is me not being nearly as familiar with Xcode, but having worked with it for months now, its still frustrating, and it seems to me unnecessarily so.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Che, Don’t have as much time as I’d like to respond, but just a couple of quick thoughts/answers here. Yeah, even if I wanted to, I’m not at liberty to release those numbers, but I can give you a rough idea. For ChangeReaction 2, which is admittedly not the best test case since a previous version existed for Windows but not for Mac, here is what we saw: In the first month of availability, CR2 for Mac sold roughly the same number of copies as the original Change Reaction did in its first three years on Windows. CR2 for Windows, released in April, has yet to reach what CR2 for Mac did in its first week. SilverDollar, which is a slightly better test case, given it is extremely inexpensive and did not exist, at least not in its entirety, for either platform previously, has been available for Mac since January, and for Windows since June. The Windows version has sold, in five months, less-than a quarter of the number of sales we got for Mac in the first month. I’m sure, too, that the ease of purchase/installation for Mac also plays a part. Purchasing games for Windows is, and will continue to be, a pain in the neck. As far as the VoiceOver interface, it just sounds like you’re not even close to familiar with all the ins and outs of VO. What you describe as going from VS to Xcode is how I feel going from Xcode to VS, which is one reason why I don’t do the Windows development myself much these days. It’s just frankly too frustrating. And remember, I started as a Windows dev. Feel free to write me off list if you want more in depth discussion of the technical ins and outs of iOS development. We have released our first title last month and have more in development. On Dec 14, 2013, at 4:39 PM, Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Josh and all, Fair enough, sorry I misunderstood what you were posting there, my bad. That is very interesting that your mac sales are far outstripping windows sales, I would be curious to know the numbers there, but I completely understand if you'd rather keep it under your hat. I have put up Rail Racer 2 for sale, where folks can buy the beta and get all upgrades as it reaches final release, and sales have been far more impressive than I thought they would be so far, so still plenty of folks wanting accessible games for windows at this point. I may yet get to a point where I've earned over $2 an hour for the coding and tech support time, hah. I have no idea how many of these folks are running windows on mac, that would be a good thing to know, I might set up a poll on audio games and see what the response is. The last time I did some informal polling, windows users outstripped mac users in the blind community at least 10 to 1, but those are slippery numbers for several reasons, including what you are saying about mac purchasers being more willing to fork over cash for their gaming experience. I completely agree that the appple hardware is more solid than the same price point PC hardware, the stuff is just rock solid. I have a mac book pro, and hav had zero issues with it. I just wish apple would spend some more time on their voiceover interface, it is to me cumbersome in a lot of areas for no good reason. For instance, why two keys for VO by default? I realize you can use the touch pad, and the quick nav is a way better way to go as well, but man, some of their interface decisions are just baffling. Having to drill up and down into Xcode over and over and over is just ridiculous to me. Even with quick nav, I have to move my hands off the main keys, then press two arrow keys to drill up or down, then back again, there is just no good reason for this much of a waste of time, I don't get it. Having developed with visual studio, then going to Xcode with voiceover feels like going from running to crawling. I know a large part of that is me not being nearly as familiar with Xcode, but having worked with it for months now, its still frustrating, and it seems to me unnecessarily so. I am sure there are many shortcuts and work arounds that I just haven't learned yet, and I plan to keep knawing at it, as I am convinced the future of accessible gaming is in mobile platforms, and specifically iOS, at least until and if google gets it together for the android platform. I would like to ask if anyone out there has an email list or forum or anything they would recommend for a blind developer getting into developing for iOS. I have some questions that relate directly to developing using voiceover, and I'm not sure the best place to ask. Thanks much for any advice, Che Email: blindadrenal...@gmail.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched
Re: [Audyssey] voiceover interface on mac, was:RE: mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Yeah, numpad commander is your friend on OS X. I can manage just fine either way--not sure what's so hard about the VO keys, myself--but the numpad commander definitely makes the Apple wired keyboard worthwhile for me. I gave up the Bluetooth keyboard and trackpad in favour of just the wired keyboard. (A standard keyboard works but may or may not have enough keys to be comprehensive, for example FN and a dedicated eject key, though you can sort of work around that. You will not get an Insert key for use in Windows however. Unfortunately some USB and virtual keyboards do not allow you to sustain a keypress, so check it before committing to it, because there are quite a few cycle keys in OS X.) Don't forget Control-Option lock, too (VO+semicolon). That locks the VO keys, which behaves a bit more rationally than QuickNav, at the expense of needing to unlock when you're finished. If you don't like the amount of interacting, remember that the tab key also works, and you have jump targets and hot spots to move you even more quickly. You'll get used to it. I surprise sighted people by installing software faster than they can on OS X using the famously keyboard-unfriendly OS X installer. :) Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
My old Toshiba has been running since 2005, and my mum has one of my brothers that has been running since 1999, though admitedly on that one the fan needs replacing. The only part of laptops I've ever seen utterly break is the headphone socket which happened on my old machine from 2003, at least as far as wear and tare goes, obviously if you knock your computer off the desk or the like that will have an effect. Generaly with windows it seems to be software errors accumulating that cause the problems, rather than hardware ones, though those can be avoided with registry fixes etc, heck this machine I'm on now I've had since 2008, and the first hardware issue I had was last year when the graphics card needed replacing due to the old one burning out. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] voiceover interface on mac, was:RE: mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
i can use one finger to press VO and shift. i don’t have large fingers, but I’m used to playing musical instruments, and my fingers are pretty long. Teresa Everything is interesting if you go into it deeply enough.--Richard P. Feynman On Dec 14, 2013, at 4:08 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com wrote: Yeah, numpad commander is your friend on OS X. I can manage just fine either way--not sure what's so hard about the VO keys, myself--but the numpad commander definitely makes the Apple wired keyboard worthwhile for me. I gave up the Bluetooth keyboard and trackpad in favour of just the wired keyboard. (A standard keyboard works but may or may not have enough keys to be comprehensive, for example FN and a dedicated eject key, though you can sort of work around that. You will not get an Insert key for use in Windows however. Unfortunately some USB and virtual keyboards do not allow you to sustain a keypress, so check it before committing to it, because there are quite a few cycle keys in OS X.) Don't forget Control-Option lock, too (VO+semicolon). That locks the VO keys, which behaves a bit more rationally than QuickNav, at the expense of needing to unlock when you're finished. If you don't like the amount of interacting, remember that the tab key also works, and you have jump targets and hot spots to move you even more quickly. You'll get used to it. I surprise sighted people by installing software faster than they can on OS X using the famously keyboard-unfriendly OS X installer. :) Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi Chae. Actually, while many Ios games are indeed on the lower end of the price spectrum that is a matter that is likely to change, since some of the major mainstream coorporations are producing rpgs and the like. Squares new Iphone game for example was priced at 20 usd. Even in the accessible games market, after seeing King of Dragon pass for 10 dollars, I am less convinced that all Ios games need to be that much less than windows ones. no, you probably couldn't sell a 50 dollar game, but a 15 or 20 dollar one would not be so unusual provided it had the depth to go with it. While prices on the Iphone are lower, eg, 5 usd for a sound adventure game like Papasangre or 10 or 15 at most for a complex game, I don't believe they're quite as low as I initially thought. Plus of course, remember on Ios people are far more comfortable with in ap purchices even of initially published games. you could for example publish a racing game like Rail racer with an initial 50 tracks and upgrades up to level 3 for 7 usd, then publish packs of an additional 50 tracks for 5 usd each. You could also do the route that games like Solara use of having in game currency buy upgrades and charge players for the currency convertion, and provided you A, allowed a method to get some currency in the game even at slow amounts and B, weren't grasping with the upgrades and free version you'd likely make up extra money that way. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] voiceover interface on mac, was:RE: mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
You can also use a Windows app called SharpKeys to reassign any key on the keyboard to be the Insert if you need that under Windows. VoiceOver’s got a wide range of tools that have great use cases depending on what you need to do. I personally use a combination of Keyboard Commander, Trackpad Commander, QuickNav, and standard VO commands. I don’t care for the numpad commander, myself, but I know some people love it. On Dec 14, 2013, at 7:08 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com wrote: Yeah, numpad commander is your friend on OS X. I can manage just fine either way--not sure what's so hard about the VO keys, myself--but the numpad commander definitely makes the Apple wired keyboard worthwhile for me. I gave up the Bluetooth keyboard and trackpad in favour of just the wired keyboard. (A standard keyboard works but may or may not have enough keys to be comprehensive, for example FN and a dedicated eject key, though you can sort of work around that. You will not get an Insert key for use in Windows however. Unfortunately some USB and virtual keyboards do not allow you to sustain a keypress, so check it before committing to it, because there are quite a few cycle keys in OS X.) Don't forget Control-Option lock, too (VO+semicolon). That locks the VO keys, which behaves a bit more rationally than QuickNav, at the expense of needing to unlock when you're finished. If you don't like the amount of interacting, remember that the tab key also works, and you have jump targets and hot spots to move you even more quickly. You'll get used to it. I surprise sighted people by installing software faster than they can on OS X using the famously keyboard-unfriendly OS X installer. :) Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] voiceover interface on mac, was:RE: mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Hi Theresa, I think at least some of the complaints about the VO keys come from people who are playing with OS X on non-Apple hardware, where the control and alt keys are not side-by-side like the control and option keys are. Of course, this can be fixed for PC keyboards in Mac System Preferences, where you can easily reassign those keys, but why bother looking for a solution when you can complain on an email list. *grin* On Dec 14, 2013, at 7:25 PM, Teresa Cochran vegaspipistre...@gmail.com wrote: i can use one finger to press VO and shift. i don’t have large fingers, but I’m used to playing musical instruments, and my fingers are pretty long. Teresa Everything is interesting if you go into it deeply enough.--Richard P. Feynman On Dec 14, 2013, at 4:08 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com wrote: Yeah, numpad commander is your friend on OS X. I can manage just fine either way--not sure what's so hard about the VO keys, myself--but the numpad commander definitely makes the Apple wired keyboard worthwhile for me. I gave up the Bluetooth keyboard and trackpad in favour of just the wired keyboard. (A standard keyboard works but may or may not have enough keys to be comprehensive, for example FN and a dedicated eject key, though you can sort of work around that. You will not get an Insert key for use in Windows however. Unfortunately some USB and virtual keyboards do not allow you to sustain a keypress, so check it before committing to it, because there are quite a few cycle keys in OS X.) Don't forget Control-Option lock, too (VO+semicolon). That locks the VO keys, which behaves a bit more rationally than QuickNav, at the expense of needing to unlock when you're finished. If you don't like the amount of interacting, remember that the tab key also works, and you have jump targets and hot spots to move you even more quickly. You'll get used to it. I surprise sighted people by installing software faster than they can on OS X using the famously keyboard-unfriendly OS X installer. :) Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Feeling sad!
I'm very sad to learn that I can no longer play Sara and the Castle of Witchcraft and Wizardry, as I have moved house, and have sadly lost my registration information, so, bye-bye Sara! Lindsay Cowell. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Exactly. My Compaq died after less than three years of use, without ever having been dropped or having a Dr. Pepper spilled all over it. Not that I've done either to my current machine but only three years is pretty sad. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 2:00 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question Hi Bryan, I would agree with that. Toshiba is over all a good brand, and the main reason I had to have mine serviced is because it got knocked off the desk and it hit the floor and broke. Otherwise I think it would have outlasted this Compaq which hasn't been dropped and has practically had hardware issue after hardware issue. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net wrote: Toshiba is definitely a good brand overall. My current laptop is a Toshiba that I've had for four years.About the only ting wrong with it is that the tab key is missing and Disk Defragmenter won't open, but it still lets me play games. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows
Hi dark, Yah, as far as the extra payments to advance in a game, that is what I was referring to with the micro payments. It is an interesting model, and definitely one I will be looking at later on, it is perfect for a RPG., or space exploration epic. For now, I have to clear my slate of rail racer 2 and make a few small tweaks to our online cribbage game at BA, but once that is taken care of, I will be focusing tightly on iOS. Rr would be a fun game on a mobile platform, but much like swamp, it would require a keyboard interface, there are just too many things you have to get feedback on to be able to do it with a single touch screen. Not to mention, I can barely make a hello world demo on iOS, much less something as extremely complex as rr. I think there is some huge potential that hasn't been scratched yet for accessible gaming on mobile platforms, its just gonna take time and effort from developers to get there. It is unfortunate that there is no way to get any hard numbers on the amount of folks using iOS with voiceover exclusively, the lack of data really muddles the picture for accessible developers. Nothing unique there, same goes for windows VI gamers, just no way to pin it down. BTW, Che is spelled c h e, pronounced shay, if yer curious, I was named after Che Guevara, the revolutionary. A man, despite what one might think of his politics or tactics, was hard core dedicated to his cause. Take care, Che -Original Message- From: Gamers [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 6:30 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The future of mobile accessible gaming, was: : mac versus windows Hi Chae. Actually, while many Ios games are indeed on the lower end of the price spectrum that is a matter that is likely to change, since some of the major mainstream coorporations are producing rpgs and the like. Squares new Iphone game for example was priced at 20 usd. Even in the accessible games market, after seeing King of Dragon pass for 10 dollars, I am less convinced that all Ios games need to be that much less than windows ones. no, you probably couldn't sell a 50 dollar game, but a 15 or 20 dollar one would not be so unusual provided it had the depth to go with it. While prices on the Iphone are lower, eg, 5 usd for a sound adventure game like Papasangre or 10 or 15 at most for a complex game, I don't believe they're quite as low as I initially thought. Plus of course, remember on Ios people are far more comfortable with in ap purchices even of initially published games. you could for example publish a racing game like Rail racer with an initial 50 tracks and upgrades up to level 3 for 7 usd, then publish packs of an additional 50 tracks for 5 usd each. You could also do the route that games like Solara use of having in game currency buy upgrades and charge players for the currency convertion, and provided you A, allowed a method to get some currency in the game even at slow amounts and B, weren't grasping with the upgrades and free version you'd likely make up extra money that way. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] voiceover interface on mac, was:RE: mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
I'm the same way. I apparently have guitar player's fingers LOL. They're coming to take me away, ha-haaa! -Original Message- From: Teresa Cochran Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 5:25 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] voiceover interface on mac,was:RE: mac versus windows sales plus iOS question i can use one finger to press VO and shift. i don’t have large fingers, but I’m used to playing musical instruments, and my fingers are pretty long. Teresa Everything is interesting if you go into it deeply enough.--Richard P. Feynman On Dec 14, 2013, at 4:08 PM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu listse...@me.com wrote: Yeah, numpad commander is your friend on OS X. I can manage just fine either way--not sure what's so hard about the VO keys, myself--but the numpad commander definitely makes the Apple wired keyboard worthwhile for me. I gave up the Bluetooth keyboard and trackpad in favour of just the wired keyboard. (A standard keyboard works but may or may not have enough keys to be comprehensive, for example FN and a dedicated eject key, though you can sort of work around that. You will not get an Insert key for use in Windows however. Unfortunately some USB and virtual keyboards do not allow you to sustain a keypress, so check it before committing to it, because there are quite a few cycle keys in OS X.) Don't forget Control-Option lock, too (VO+semicolon). That locks the VO keys, which behaves a bit more rationally than QuickNav, at the expense of needing to unlock when you're finished. If you don't like the amount of interacting, remember that the tab key also works, and you have jump targets and hot spots to move you even more quickly. You'll get used to it. I surprise sighted people by installing software faster than they can on OS X using the famously keyboard-unfriendly OS X installer. :) Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Feeling sad!
Hi Lindsay, Just email me directly and I'll get you a new registration key for the Sarah game. Phil Vlasak PCS games phi...@bex.net - Original Message - From: Lindsay Cowell lindsay.cow...@virginmedia.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 7:48 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Feeling sad! I'm very sad to learn that I can no longer play Sara and the Castle of Witchcraft and Wizardry, as I have moved house, and have sadly lost my registration information, so, bye-bye Sara! Lindsay Cowell. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1432 / Virus Database: 3629/6421 - Release Date: 12/14/13 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Mmm, yeah, definitely agree that Toshiba had a good run. I don't believe they're up there nowadays though, as they've mostly thrown their consumer products to the wolves and that includes all the gaming machines. Now the new hotness appears to be Lenovo, at least hardware wise. But I no longer trifle myself with such things, as all my machines are (obviously) all now Macs. :) Cheers, Sabahattin --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Okay, Have not read down this thread all the way yet but I have something simple to say. If people are seriously wanting information on Mac / iOS development then that's great and I'm happy to answer when I can. -And there are others here as well. However, this whole Mac / Windows discussion really just seems to be a group of people who are not even coding on Macs (and may not even have had any experience at all coding on either platform) who are wanting to say how much they like Windows. this is great. But please don't bring this up under the guise of asking questions when you seem to really just want to say how much you like Windows. That's just a waste of time wouldn't you say? I've programmed on Windows with Visual Studio and Mac with XCode. They both have their quirks… For people who want to use Windows, that's great! For people who want to use Mac, that's great! Can we just stop acting like idiots and get along? ;) lol! Thanks and hope you're all having an awesome weekend! Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 14, 2013, at 7:20 AM, Josh joshknnd1...@gmail.com wrote: you can get a great windows7 machine from blaire technology group for $190 or around $200. take off the back pannel put 4 more gigs of ram in and you are good to go. using windows7 laptop On 12/14/2013 5:56 AM, Dallas O'Brien wrote: hi. a few things here. yes, you are correct che. mac's are nothing, compared to windows. mac's alone, make up about 50 to 70 million computers in the world today. windows makes up over 1.5 billion, that's billion with a B for bravo. lol. so mac's are nothing to windows. and unless apple brings their prices down, they will never ever be close to a windows based machine, simply because i can buy a windows computer, that has the same basic internal capabilities as a macbook, for a third of the price. and the every day user, isn't going to spend 3 times the cost, or more. they can't afford it these days. it's mostly rich kids, and people who have a bit of money to throw at a problem that buy macs. the every day user just can't afford that price premium. hell, the prices of iPads and iPhones is just stupid for that matter. note, using the turm pc for only a windows based computer isn't particularly correct, as mac's are PC's as well. just thought i'd throw that in, as in terms of what intel call a pc, a mac is one as well. and yeah, i can imagine that coding on the mac is ... interesting, to say the least. lol. hell, just doing every day functions on a mac, are a combination of contorsionism, and joint popping acrobatics. ahaha. never the less, it's good to see some games coming out on the mac. but it will never be the main platform. the ratio of windows to mac is too great. it's not affordable for a developer to work on some games, for the mac, compared to for windows. well, good luck with your work che. looking forward to getting my paws on a copy of the RR V2. regards: Dallas On 14/12/2013, Che Martin blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: Hi ya, Just red this quote from the list: Start quote: First, ignoring Mac as a viable platform for blind gamers is a poor strategy. One year on, and Mac sales are still far exceeding Windows sales, even in comparison to back in the hay day of audio games, some 10 years ago or so. It isn't just about raw user numbers, it is about demographics and the quality of those users. End quote Maybe I am misunderstanding the quote here, but are you saying that macs are outselling windows machines? Where are you getting those numbers? Its been a while since I checked, but last time I took notice macs were around 5 or 6 percent with PC's over 80 percent. I am sure the mac has made strides in recent years, but if they are outselling windows machines in pretty much any significant market, that is surprising news to me. I could see where macs may be accelerating with the decline of the PC, but last I checked, they have a really long way to go to be anywhere near outselling windows machines. If macs are indeed outselling pc's with windows, I would have lost a large bet on that, had a wager been presented to my degenerate gambling self. Here is what I dug up quickly on google before going to bed: In an interview with Computerworld, Gartner analyst Carolina Milanesi says a major OS shift is coming. By 2015, she predicts, devices running Apple operating systems will overtake those running Windows. Last year, shipments of products running Windows still handily outnumbered those running Mac OS and iOS, by 347 million to 213 million, according to figures from Gartner published Monday. The lead will be slashed to 23 million in 2014, and the Apple OSes will likely outnumber Windows devices in 2015, said Carolina Milanesi, research vice
[Audyssey] Liam's Hairy Butthole BETA
Hey Gamers, Because I am need to constantly fuck Liam's butthole when he's not in a threesome with me and Jim Kitchen, I have found it necessary to create this game! I have been working on it for years now, but I have switched programming languages 200 different times. I have finally chosen AUTOIT as my chosen language. The game will be available soon for $200! Please email me if you'd like to beta test --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] mac versus windows sales plus iOS question
Thomas, when you mention buying a Mac, you also mention software. What are you thinking you need? The OS comes on the machine just like Windows and the development tools are free. the only other cost is the dev account. Were you thinking of something else? Thanks and hope you're having a great night! Smiles, Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 14, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Davy, Well, for one thing to develop software for the Mac it requires purchasing a Mac. Both hardware and software. It is not legal to buy Mac OS X and run it in Virtualbox or in VMWare Player. Although, I have heard it can be done if you have the proper hardware to do it. Hardware is a sticking point for developers. Even if you want to virtualize Mac OS, legality not with standing, there are hardware issues to consider. I have read that if someone has an AMD64 processor, which I do, there is no way at all to run Mac OS X on that machine in Virtualbox or VMWare Player. So there is really little choice for me and I assume most other developers but to go out and pay for a Mac PC with Mac OS X. That will cost at least $1,200 or more. The cost of a Mac developer account just adds cost to the problem if a person wants or needs that service. I think it is $99 per year, which is cheaper than MSDN, but if a person doesn't have it to spend they don't have it to spend. One way, of course, to cut costs is to attempt to use a more cross-platform language and tools like Java, Python, whatever. I've developed my share of low cost apps in Java, love the language, but am still not sold on using Java for developing accessible games personally. As for Linux I use the operating system all the time, and I do not think adding the OS to my list of supported platforms would seriously impact my development costs or anyone else's for that matter. For one thing Linux is totally free, and someone can download Ubuntu, Sonar, Vinux, Fedora, Debian, etc for free, and get all the tools and documentation they need. Plus Linux can run side by side with windows on the same machine meaning there are no up front extra hardware costs involved in running and developing for the platform. Now, if someone owned a Mac and wanted to port to Windows there would certainly be costs involved, but it would be far less. One reason is all they would need to do is go out and buy Windows 7, run it in Bootcamp, and can get plenty of development tools for free. There is Visual Studio Express, the free MinGW compilers, the NVDA screen reader, etc to really cut costs in porting something from Mac to Windows. Then, if they chose to use Java that would also be a very low cost solution for the developer. So I believe going from Mac to Windows is over all cheaper than going from Windows to Mac if the person doesn't have the hardware and software required to begin with. Cheers! On 12/14/13, Davy Kager m...@davykager.nl wrote: Hi, One interesting point I see being raised over and over here is that developing for Mac adds cost on the developer's end. Without denying that statement, I'm curious to know what is meant here: - Cost of a physical Mac (because you don't like VirtualBox). - Cost of an Apple developer account (because you don't like cross-platform technologies). - Time spent learning Objective-C (because again you don't fancy going cross-platform in some other way). - Extra time spent optimizing your app for Mac OS (because the cross-platform tools you use turned out not to be as cross-platform as you believed). What about Linux: do you think that supporting that operating system adds an equal amount to your bill as would Mac OS? What if you owned only a Mac, developed only for Mac, and wanted to port to Windows? Davy --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] L-Works Partnership with USA Games
I am a big fan of mainstream games. There are plenty of home-made gay games out there. But there are none for us blind people! Thomas and I now are husbands, and we fuck each other daily. But I am a REALLY horny guy, and Thomas's ass is sore from my constant pounding. So I need to virtually penetrate him. I would like to share this experience with you all for $200. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Howdy Folks!
Audysseyers, As a job, I model in the nude. This is because I cannot code good things. But, I am a good voice actress when it comes to being pounded with a cock in the vagina and the ass. I do this quite well. USA Games and L-Works have created game for gay blinds, but not straight ones. So I am partnering up with Che Martin, to create Cara's Prostitute Adventures! You get to fuck me on the computer! It will be free and open source. Smiles, Cara --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] To Developers: Switching from DirectSound to OpenAL Soft
Hi Shaun, The delay / reverb and other effects are actually system-specific and not a part of OpenAL. OpenAL does not have these by default, so it relies on the particular system on which it is running to take care of this. So any issues you may be seeing are not with OpenAL itself but with the way the digital signal processing is implemented on the platform / machine it is being run on. HTH Cara :) --- iOS design and development - LookTel.com --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Dec 13, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Shaun Everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: No but the people I work with for the deathmatch series do use fsl on purebasic which does have open al intigrated. The environmental and other effects do have a few echo issues, but over all are ok. I am not sure about anything else which is not purebasic. At 06:20 a.m. 14/12/2013, you wrote: Hi developers, I recently decided to switch from DirectSound to OpenAL Soft. I did this for 2 reasons: 1 Because OpenALSoft has built in HRTF support. 2 Because OpenAL Soft is cross platform. Right after I got the simplest of demo applications playing a simple sound I got terribly sick and have been in bed for the past few days. So as I wait until I am well enough to continue working on it I thought I'd ask if any other developers have advice on the subject. If you've used both DirectSound and OpenAL Soft you can probably give me the best information about what switching entails. But even if you've only used Open AL Soft I think there is a lot I could learn from you. Basically any advice about quirks, gotchas, and awesome benefits are appreciated. Also, it's my impression that the HRTF support is automatic and I don't need to enable it in code. Is this correct? Has anyone had real experience with the OpenAL Soft HRTF specifically? Is it any good? Is anyone using the original OpenAL instead of OpenAL Soft for 3D games? If so, why? OpenAL Soft also suggests installing OpenAL from Creative Labs first and then installing OpenAL Soft side by side to get some possible extra driver benefit. Does this matter in the real world? I heard that Creative Labs stopped updating OpenAL ages ago, which is why I wonder about the actual benefit. Again, I'm looking for help from people with actual OpenAL experience. Thanks for any help you can give. Ian Reed Try my free games at http://BlindAudioGames.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] AG Update
Hi All. I have just added Liam's Hairy Butthole to the AudioGames DOT NET Forum. I have been given beta access! And! I will be posted an audio update for you all on my experience. It is worth the high price. Yes, it is! The audio update will include me jacking off. Beware the Grue! Dark, PhD --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AG Update
Glad to see someone is impersonating email addresses. Truthfully I lol'd a little bit. On 12/14/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi All. I have just added Liam's Hairy Butthole to the AudioGames DOT NET Forum. I have been given beta access! And! I will be posted an audio update for you all on my experience. It is worth the high price. Yes, it is! The audio update will include me jacking off. Beware the Grue! Dark, PhD --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] impersonating game developers and posting leud message to the list
Can someone please get rid of this disgusting individual? --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] L-Works Partnership with USA Games
Sigh really? And people wonder why I hate this list. Glad to see people are adult enough to impersonate other list members. On 12/14/13, Liam Erven liamer...@gmail.com wrote: I am a big fan of mainstream games. There are plenty of home-made gay games out there. But there are none for us blind people! Thomas and I now are husbands, and we fuck each other daily. But I am a REALLY horny guy, and Thomas's ass is sore from my constant pounding. So I need to virtually penetrate him. I would like to share this experience with you all for $200. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] AG Update
Pst! don't encourage him! At 01:41 PM 12/15/2013, you wrote: Glad to see someone is impersonating email addresses. Truthfully I lol'd a little bit. On 12/14/13, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi All. I have just added (snp!) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] MOTA Question
I have a question about MOTA! When will tommy ward introduce the feature to get anally raped by him? I like big meat you know it! yes you do! MOTHA FUCKA! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] ANAL GAYNESS
Hi, we all know there is lots of gay porn available for sighted people but what about for blind ppl? please right now reply on this list or if tommy ward's is too much of an anus reply to me personally your favorite porn website where I can get AUDIO DESCRIBED PORNO thank you --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Liam's Hairy Butthole Review
Hey I just play liam hairy butthole you should play too! I scored points by licking his ass freshly after he shit, now there is shit on my tongue! now now now now! you play more like me! we wee wee ewe wwee! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] BGT For Mac and Linux
Hey All, There has been much recent discussion about making my PIECE OF SHIT software for STUPID FUCKING BLIND people who cant learn REAL CODING in C PLUS PLUS MOTHA FUCKA! BGT is complete rip off! You are all too fucking stupid! Why would you pay for my shitty fucking software! It costs a fortune and you can only make shitty games with it! you can only make ANAL games like Liam's Hairy Butthole! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] ios possibility
Hi ya, i am tinking about making a game available for ios. we will be parterning with mister liam erven, the guy with the hairy anus, to make the game available to ios. that way you can shove your iphone up your ass and pretend it's his cock. it will make big sound for you --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] WinSpank 3.0 Extension
hi i am some old fucking farthead who keeps using vb6 and won't switch to real man language like c++. i am old and stupid as fuck and i should be castrated by che martin. Go to KITCHENSINC, where the only thing in the sink is Liam's CUM! Hot Cum for Liam erven will be for sale. i extracted the cum from his ass after i fuck him with my cane! my cock is shriveled so i had to fuck him with my cane! haha! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] ATTENTION: Moderator Notice!
Hey all, It has come to my attention that someone finds it funny to spam the list. I am taking precautions and placing everyone on moderator status. There should be no more messages like this coming to the list. Consider all these topics closed, lets get back to gaming! Thank You. Sincerely: Thomas Ward Owner-Moderator of the Audyssey Mailing List gamers@audyssey.org --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Games We Like to Play [HAIRY BUTTHOLE INCLUDED]
HAIRY BUTTHOLE HAIRY BUTTHOLE HAIRY BUTTHOLE! THOMAS WARD THINKS HE CAN MOD THE LIST BUT I AM TOO SMART FOR HIM! IF YOU OPENED THIS EMAIL, YOU WILL NOW HAVE A TROJAN! HAHAHAH! GOOD LUCK GETTING YOUR FREE SHITTY ANTI MALWARE SOFTWARE TO DETECT THIS SHIT! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Games We Like to Play [HAIRY BUTTHOLE INCLUDED]
HAIRY BUTTHOLE HAIRY BUTTHOLE HAIRY BUTTHOLE! THOMAS WARD THINKS HE CAN MOD THE LIST BUT I AM TOO SMART FOR HIM! IF YOU OPENED THIS EMAIL, YOU WILL NOW HAVE A TROJAN! HAHAHAH! GOOD LUCK GETTING YOUR FREE SHITTY ANTI MALWARE SOFTWARE TO DETECT THIS SHIT! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
