Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. | Don't feed | | the trolls | | | | --\|/ -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 17, 2003, at 11:01 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Yep. Do that. Every committer should want to be part of the PMC. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
At 04:19 AM 12/18/2003, you wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently. Just my 2ct... Regards, Serge Huber. - -- --- -=[ shuber2 at jahia dot com ]= --- -- - www.jahia.org : A collaborative source CMS and Portal Server - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently. It's certainly not deliberate. Least I hope not. I guess Andy was trying to shame people into using this list. Go Andy . d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Choosing against Jakarta
No worries, mate. The Apache License is the ultimate hedge. No matter what happens, you can always set up the source someplace else. The most you could possibly lose would be the product name, and, realistically, if there wasn't a community behind the product, Apache wouldn't want it anyway :) As an Apache Committer, you can setup a product in the Jakarta Commons sandbox whenever you want. (Just like SourceForge.) If you can interest other people in the product, and build a community to support it, the product can be promoted to the Commons Proper -- or even to the top-level of Jakarta or the ASF, depending on the product's extent. The thing to keep in mind is that you are not donating code to Jakarta. You are donating it to the Apache Software Foundation. The ASF is here to stay, as are all of its products, no matter where they are hosted. As long as a product has a vital, meritocratic community, it's sure to have a home at the ASF. Of course, SourceForge is also a fine place to host a project. I often choose SourceForge when the people I'm working with are not ASF Committers. This in itself is a good reason to choose SourceForge: you can't add ASF Committers at will. ASF Committers must have demonstrated a sustained interest in the project and an understanding of the Apache Way. Usually this is a good thing, but sometimes it is not. As far as anything else goes: This too shall pass, but open source and the Apache License endure. -Ted. Stephen Colebourne wrote: As some of you may know, I look after my own date and time code in Java at www.joda.org. I had been hoping to bring this code to Apache, as I believe it to be a very good fit with developments within Jakarta/Jakarta-commons. Today I decided not to pursue this option for the time being, until the situation with Jakarta's future is resolved. Instead I applied for a new sourceforge project to house it more cleanly. Why post this here? Because I believe that others may also be questioning the value of Jakarta. I confess that I have no idea what, or if, Jakarta will look like in 6 months time. Certainly it made no sense to me to attempt to get a new project adopted by Jakarta at the moment. Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) -- Andy Armstrong, Tagish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? -- Andy Armstrong, Tagish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Whoever knows you as an active committer Andy and is on the PMC. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the board's list [in the committers/ cvs module]. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Yes, very much thanks. -- Andy Armstrong, Tagish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:01:11 -0500 (EST) To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious subjects have been: how the PMC should work organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so far] how to ensure oversight of jakarta general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness [it shouldn't seems the end result here] how to get more CLA's signed by committers log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a bit Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads did anyway. As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Hen On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE. But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation. As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand certain private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, should be out in the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on about the Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the knowledge sharing in such metters. -Harish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Danny Angus wrote: Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE. But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation. So of course we would still be, like MySQL and JBOSS and so many other commercial/open hybrids. OTOH I don't think I'd like participating as much if decisions were imposed by the secret handshakes and arcane knowledge department. From what I can see there is no conspiracy here, just some lack of consideration by people starting threads on the PMC list which would be better off here. Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this open forum. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand certain private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, should be out in the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on about the Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the knowledge sharing in such metters. Harish, First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the PMC, which I'd be happy to do. Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places (including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly just at the My Idea stage. I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us all. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:58 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion of the things that are concerning us. The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the PMC, which I'd be happy to do. Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one. The description on the website is pretty broad. Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places (including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly just at the My Idea stage. I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us all. Absolutely, this kind of stuff, I think, belongs here. -Harish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC mailing list (Re: Just in case you're curious)
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:52 AM, Joe Germuska wrote: Anyone. Interested? I'm interested in being on the PMC mailing list; I just became a Struts committer. My apache ID is germuska. Joe, I took the liberty of cc-ing the general Jakarta list. Congrats on becoming a committer. I hope that your CLA has been signed and sent to the ASF. :) What we are trying to do is expand the Jakarta PMC to give as much inclusion and oversight as possible for all jakarta projects. To that end, we are looking for committers that are interested in the oversight of the projects, not just working on the projects. Fundamentally, this means that the committers are ensuring that the code and other contributions that is being added to the project's CVS is properly contributed (via a committer w/ a CLA or on a public list where it's clear it's a freely given contribution) and properly licensed. This is a subject we'll be discussing more on the general@ list, and I urge you to pay attention, participate and decide if this is something you wish to volunteer for. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:25 -0500 (EST) Henri Yandell wrote: Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this open forum. About the issue of openness and closeness: board@ is *public* for all the ASF members. (Any ASF members can be a *read only member* to the board@ list) board@ is open list? close list? WS (WebServices) project discuss most of the important issues at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] at the same time. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is open list? close list? -- I think that jakarta should choose an appropriate method which suffices for most of the jakarta committers' needs. For example: Create topics for discussion -- PMC list Vote -- general@ (or another appropriate list : important issues) PMC list (trivial issues) Report to all the jakarta committers -- general@ -- Also, please read this (Roy T. Fielding said @ incubator list at Fri, 26 Sep 2003) all the jakarta committers and PMC members -- A release requires 3 +1 and a majority of those voting, wherein the only people allowed to vote are the PMC responsible for that code. In other words, the usual rules apply -- it is simply harder to get the votes. -- According to the bylaws, the only people authorized to make decisions on behalf of the ASF (including the decision to release code to the general public) are officers or the PMC responsible for the project. All other votes are to be ignored or considered advisory only, and no I don't care how long some of our umbrella projects have been ignoring that fact. It seems that most of the committers in jakarta do not know this fact. Before the discussion of *openness/closeness*, I think we should have common understanding on this. Regards, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion of the things that are concerning us. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. -Andy geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 11:28 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on something. That's commonly known as FUD. I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion of the things that are concerning us. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between a committer and Apache? I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help grow Jakarta but I want to be clear on the responsibilities I will be taking on as a member and if I will be eligible. Thanks, Harish Noel J. Bergman wrote: Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the PMC, which I'd be happy to do. Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one. The description on the website is pretty broad. Harish, as I see it, part of the problem comes from a misunderstanding about the nature of the PMC. The term management has been misunderstood in the context of an ASF Project. The intended purpose for the PMC is that the PMC members are the core group making all decisions related to an ASF Project. That includes voting on code changes, voting on new Committers, voting on new PMC members. Not all Committers may be on the PMC, but the majority should be -- and those who aren't do not have binding votes (see explanation below). I recently did a quick survey of some projects: Project # PMC# Committers % HTTP Server:43 59 73% APR 29 43 67% Cocoon 31 67 46% Jakarta 42+ 352 12% Not all Committers are still active, so the ratio of PMC to active Committers is higher, but the difference is still pretty clear. The Jakarta PMC, using the current structure, is missing 100s of members. Now here is where the problem comes in. Although every PMC is free to establish its normal rules, the legal system also plays a part. The structure of the ASF exists to protect us. In order to be protected, decision makers must be PMC members. Decisions include code changes. The discussions taking place on [EMAIL PROTECTED] regarding how to fix the situation take different directions, but I think that everyone agrees that the vast majority of Jakarta Committers must be on a responsible PMC. The question, as I see it, is really about *how* we're going to organize it, not *if*. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Howard Lewis Ship wrote: The more I see of this discussion, the more convinced I am that the sub-projects of Jakarta should be run like mini-TLPs. We want to leverage the marketing power of the Jakarta brand, the experience of the other Jakarta developers, and some infrastructure support (web page, CVS, mailing lists, wiki). I agree. That has been my preferred approach to date. I concur with many of the reasons you gave for not having a 300 person PMC overseeing dozens of otherwise unrelated projects. To me, management is primarily about allocating scarce resources. As I said, this is not the kind of management meant for a PMC. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between a committer and Apache? Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache, apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache. An Apache Member is a part of the Apache organisation, while a PMC member is recognised by the Apache organisation as being responsible for that TLP. There's no need for them to be an Apache Member however. [IANAL etc, this is how I see it from descriptions people have given] I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help grow Jakarta but I want to be clear on the responsibilities I will be taking on as a member and if I will be eligible. By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not gone well so far but will hopefully get there. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between a committer and Apache? Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache, apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache. I am sorry if I am being naive, but can it not be enforced that a committer should also be bound the way a member is? That way the responsibilities are borne by every committer and we could have a very small team of members for governance. An Apache Member is a part of the Apache organisation, while a PMC member is recognised by the Apache organisation as being responsible for that TLP. There's no need for them to be an Apache Member however. [IANAL etc, this is how I see it from descriptions people have given] I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help grow Jakarta but I want to be clear on the responsibilities I will be taking on as a member and if I will be eligible. By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not gone well so far but will hopefully get there. I am sorry, I meant to say if I would qualify for the responsibilities. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Henri Yandell wrote: I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7 members. There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer. grin You catch on quickly. :-) The difference is that a PMC member, as a normative statement, has a binding vote on the project. By allowing someone to become a Committer, you allow direct contribution to the codebase, but the PMC is overseeing it. The Committer contributes, but does not have a say. So there is a natural progression from: Contributor (patches) - Committer (authorized access) - PMC member If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. It doesn't. 300+ Committers are already doing most of what they need to do, without the benefit of being on a PMC. Is there a legal binding between a [PMC] member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between a committer and Apache? Please see: http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED] .orgmsgNo=2711. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between a committer and Apache? Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache, apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache. I am sorry if I am being naive, but can it not be enforced that a committer should also be bound the way a member is? That way the responsibilities are borne by every committer and we could have a very small team of members for governance. Depends what you mean by member here. ASF Member-ness is special and something legal to do with the organisation. PMC member-ness, is meant to apply to all active committers apparantly. Other Apache TLPs function in this way [some, not all], and apparantly this is the way the PMC is expected to behave. Basically any somewhat active, trusted committer should be on the PMC. By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not gone well so far but will hopefully get there. I am sorry, I meant to say if I would qualify for the responsibilities. Your call. As long as you're active, you pass muster to be on the PMC. Whether you want to be is up to you and how happy you are joining something that is not too sure about responsibilities etc. I've seen nothing that says you can't quit at any time though, so I think there's very little risk involved in jumping in. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7 members. There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. Gotya. Had been wondering why you kept pushing the multi-PMC approach. I'm +0 to this and would still be worried about what 'Jakarta' meant now. Hopefully if this happened, ant, maven, avalon, cocoon, etc would be able to join Jakarta again. Same for xerces-J, xalan-J etc. So these would basically be TLPs without the domain name? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Henri Yandell wrote: Obviously, something is afoot ... otherwise, why are healthy projects moving out of Jakarta, up to the top level (Ant, Maven and now logging)? Is that the destiny of Jakarta, to be a second-level incubator for projects on the way to TLP status? If so ... embrace that. As far as I know, there is much ASF community resistance to Jakarta continuing to be an Incubator. We're no longer anywhere near server-side Java at ASF. Basically we are now: What's left of the old server-side Java project at ASF, but a bit confused about it all. Hen Your right, the real question is What is Jakarta? Is it a java component incubator or is it a umbrella for server side java? The idea of server side java is a weak one in my book. There is no such thing as server side java and client side java, its all the same JVM! There are a few components that act as servers (tomcat, james, etc). There are components that are developed with the intention of running on those services (Struts, JSTL, Velocity ...) And there are java components that are totally agnostic to this artificial boundary of client/server side java (most of jakarta commons). There are components that were designed to be intentional gui clients (JMeter etc). But what they all have in common is java. Jakarta is a java component incubator! I suspect the components that have left Jakarta have done so because they've felt limited by its past mandate as server side java or things that run on tomcat... Either way, language based delineations in top level apache project boundaries are logical given that its often the case that a subproject is usually developed with one language in mind (java, perl, c, php, xml). Yes there are overlaps and exceptions to this case (Xerces and Xalan for instance), but they are usually consolidated under an appropriate umbrella of commonality (in this case XML). I'm not convinced that a language agnostic top level incubator is a bad or good thing, I just think it may not be a very popular thing because of these umbrellas of commonality that arise based on language and implementation. In context to the parent projects umbrella is where the most appropriate creativity and invention arise, leading to the most successful subprojects. -Mark -- Mark Diggory Software Developer Harvard MIT Data Center http://osprey.hmdc.harvard.edu - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 14:03, Henri Yandell wrote: Either it would roll back to the old style as Tomcat + friends, or would become the Java-Foundry for Apache [a la Sourceforge], or would become Jakarta Commons, or both of the latter two. Dunno what other visions there might be out there for Jakarta-2004. FWIW -- Jakarta has a lot of mindshare on web-application stuff and that is not to be thrown away. I am *not* on the PMC for Jakarta (and shouldn't be) so have no business interjecting thoughts on what to do, but... (I should listen to myself more, oh well, too late now) if a group home for webapp tools exists in Apache, it should be Jakarta. Jakarta should not (as I recently replied to you in DB) be the default home for everything without some other logical home. Maybe we need sandbox.apache.org for logical groupings to coagulate in, but that is a decision for people at a higher pay grade than myself ;-) Just my off-the-cuff opinions =) -Brian - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
On Dec 18, 2003, at 2:24 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7 members. There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. This is nothing I would encourage. There's really no question that it's legal. But it does then make Jakarta a website, rather than a community, IMO. I'd rather see the community. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
On Dec 18, 2003, at 2:35 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7 members. There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. Gotya. Had been wondering why you kept pushing the multi-PMC approach. Clue me in because I don't get it. I'm +0 to this and would still be worried about what 'Jakarta' meant now. Hopefully if this happened, ant, maven, avalon, cocoon, etc would be able to join Jakarta again. Same for xerces-J, xalan-J etc. I'm -1 to this, but it's not a -1-able thing. Projects are free to apply for top level status if they want. -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Ah now it all makes sense :) May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be no reason to lobby for more members, really. -Harish Noel J. Bergman wrote: I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer. grin You catch on quickly. :-) The difference is that a PMC member, as a normative statement, has a binding vote on the project. By allowing someone to become a Committer, you allow direct contribution to the codebase, but the PMC is overseeing it. The Committer contributes, but does not have a say. So there is a natural progression from: Contributor (patches) - Committer (authorized access) - PMC member If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. It doesn't. 300+ Committers are already doing most of what they need to do, without the benefit of being on a PMC. Is there a legal binding between a [PMC] member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between a committer and Apache? Please see: http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED] .orgmsgNo=2711. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Volunteering for PMC membership
Hi, I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my nomination for PMC membership. Regards, Harish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:08 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: Ah now it all makes sense :) May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be no reason to lobby for more members, really. We want to make sure that the PMC members are committers who understand the responsibility and are willing to take it. Automatic inclusion doesn't do that. But it seems that the exact responsibilities is not really laid out and is the primary reason for confusion? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Volunteering for PMC membership
On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:14 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: Hi, I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my nomination for PMC membership. Hey look! He's willing to swim upstream to help *grow* Jakarta. I say we take him! geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Volunteering for PMC membership
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:14 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: Hi, I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my nomination for PMC membership. Hey look! He's willing to swim upstream to help *grow* Jakarta. I say we take him! Unless you want a fast-track program, I'll add him to my list of nominees for quick voting. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Confused with PMCs, TLPs, ASF and Power?
Then try this: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta and the ASF appear, and possibly how they affect you. Be aware of the disclaimer at the top, however trying to distill any controversial topic to one page always ends up annoying someone. Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused with PMCs, TLPs, ASF and Power?
Very nice, this really clarifies the organizational structure and issues at hand. Thanks, Harish Stephen Colebourne wrote: Then try this: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta and the ASF appear, and possibly how they affect you. Be aware of the disclaimer at the top, however trying to distill any controversial topic to one page always ends up annoying someone. Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
+1 If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution. No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general list, news and download pages, ... The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects) The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members. Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs. Is this possible? -- Dirk Noel J. Bergman wrote: There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should join as well. -- Dirk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Volunteering for PMC membership
Hi, I, Dirk Verbeeck (dirkv), a jakarta-commons (and slide) committer, would like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my nomination for PMC membership. Regards, Dirk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Dirk Verbeeck wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should join as well. Noted. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
To do this, each product would simply need to draft a resolution to create the PMC and select a chair, and ask that it be placed on the board's agenda for the next meeting, just as Log4J and the others did. It would be very important that each product do this themselves, to help show they are ready for self-management. Essentially, each product would still be a TLP, but would just be hosted at Jakarta. This option has always been available, it's just that every product since Ant has chosen to have their own hostname and website. It's also important to remember that some of these products, like Log4J, are not just about Java anymore. The Apache Logging project will have compatible codebases available for half-a-dozen platforms. (Now *that's* community building!) -Ted. Dirk Verbeeck wrote: +1 If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution. No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general list, news and download pages, ... The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects) The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members. Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs. Is this possible? -- Dirk Noel J. Bergman wrote: There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Volunteering for PMC membership
Hi, I, Tetsuya Kitahata (tetsuya), would like to help oversight of the jakarta websites. I request my nomination for PMC membership. Maybe this can be expressed as jakarta-site2 PMC. Note: The creation of jakarta-site2 project has been voted here last year and adopted already. Thanks, -- Tetsuya Kitahata. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. As I've said before, if ASF Board would have socialized the marketing activities into Public Relations and Communications Committee, jakarta-site2 PMC could have helped such a committee, i am sure. On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:39:31 +0100 (Subject: Volunteering for PMC membership) Dirk Verbeeck wrote: Hi, I, Dirk Verbeeck (dirkv), a jakarta-commons (and slide) committer, would like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my nomination for PMC membership. Regards, Dirk - Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
I'm not asking for a change, I only see a lot of mails again and again about the board asking for more insight into the working of jakarta. Same with the whole jakarta-commons apache-commons discussion. If this can be solved by just doing some paperwork (writing down who is supervising what) then just do that and move on. I'm sure we can find enough people to create the project PMCs and every java member would be on the Jakarta Community PMC to guide the cross project guidelines/resources (from a java community perspective). Everything will remain the same like it is today only the board will get more info about the state of each project. If a project wants their own hostname/website then let them. For log4j it makes sense because of the multi language aspect, or for mega projects like geronimo but otherwise... --Dirk Ted Husted wrote: To do this, each product would simply need to draft a resolution to create the PMC and select a chair, and ask that it be placed on the board's agenda for the next meeting, just as Log4J and the others did. It would be very important that each product do this themselves, to help show they are ready for self-management. Essentially, each product would still be a TLP, but would just be hosted at Jakarta. This option has always been available, it's just that every product since Ant has chosen to have their own hostname and website. It's also important to remember that some of these products, like Log4J, are not just about Java anymore. The Apache Logging project will have compatible codebases available for half-a-dozen platforms. (Now *that's* community building!) -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
-Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? Andrew, I can see how you might see the private list as secretive, devious, or underhanded. I just see a private list as a necessity, I couldn't imagine the % increase in e-mail traffic if the pmc list was open to anyone, or it was carried on the general list. There are enough tangential conversations on the pmc list now, so say doubling the number of posters could increase the volume to 3-4X what it is now. If you feel strongly enough about it, if you wanted to create a digest of what was said by sifting through all the emails here and post it on general daily that would be ok by me. -Rob -Rob - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
1) s/product/sub-project/ 2) I don't know what 'hosted at Jakarta' means. The CVS repositories are ASF respositories - there is no hierarchy grouping them as 'jakarta'. As for using the Jakarta website, the Jakarta community would be responsible for it, and thus they will decide on it's content. IOW, ASF projects that the Jakarta community has no oversight or responsibility for will be able to be a part of the Jakarta site at their pleasure. It's simply common sense. geir On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:45 PM, Ted Husted wrote: To do this, each product would simply need to draft a resolution to create the PMC and select a chair, and ask that it be placed on the board's agenda for the next meeting, just as Log4J and the others did. It would be very important that each product do this themselves, to help show they are ready for self-management. Essentially, each product would still be a TLP, but would just be hosted at Jakarta. This option has always been available, it's just that every product since Ant has chosen to have their own hostname and website. It's also important to remember that some of these products, like Log4J, are not just about Java anymore. The Apache Logging project will have compatible codebases available for half-a-dozen platforms. (Now *that's* community building!) -Ted. Dirk Verbeeck wrote: +1 If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution. No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general list, news and download pages, ... The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects) The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members. Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs. Is this possible? -- Dirk Noel J. Bergman wrote: There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on something. That's commonly known as FUD. I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? I'm not sure you do. The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ironic. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here. No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness isn't always convenient. -Andy geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and server side java ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ). So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle. Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in that they don't focus on that subtitle. Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive. Just as a flamebait suggestion :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:24:00 -0500 (Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?) Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? -Harish +1. Agreed. Why don't Jakarta adopt EU-like governance style? (Board = Secretariat of the United Nations: Jakarta Sub-Projects can have the status of Nation Jakarta itself is United Nations. Other TLPs are Nations) People often hold of the wrong end of the stick and assume that bylaws is for bylaws. -- NO -- Bylaws is *for* the components of each communities/organizations. I'd like to see -- Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... styled governance (what Noel mentioned) in jakarta tlp. I am not a laywer, however, there might be no legal problem. Regards, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and server side java ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ). So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle. Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in that they don't focus on that subtitle. Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive. Just as a flamebait suggestion :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
Because it's wrong. XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta. If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact it's in Java, or does it just depend on which community creates or invites the codebase. As they have to go through the Incubator now [or be fast-tracked with the board's new scheme Greg mentioned], is the community inviting them in as important as it used to be. I'd much rather find a real subtitle for Jakarta that fits well [Cocoon is Java web development, but only indirectly I think, ditto for Avalon]. Hen On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and server side java ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ). So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle. Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in that they don't focus on that subtitle. Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive. Just as a flamebait suggestion :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Multiple PMCs is not a problem. There are James, Maven people on the Jakarta PMC etc. The idea below still concerns me. If all the PMC's share the same website, who is responsible for the website as a global concept. For example, the need to do mirrors. If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based] are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their websites. Hen On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: From what I have understood today, this seems like a nice option to me to straighten things out. +1 -Harish Dirk Verbeeck wrote: +1 If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution. No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general list, news and download pages, ... The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects) The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members. Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs. Is this possible? -- Dirk Noel J. Bergman wrote: There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
That's true, so back to Jakarta = Server side web development! But is it restricted only to Java web development or just plain web development? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: Because it's wrong. XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta. If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact it's in Java, or does it just depend on which community creates or invites the codebase. As they have to go through the Incubator now [or be fast-tracked with the board's new scheme Greg mentioned], is the community inviting them in as important as it used to be. I'd much rather find a real subtitle for Jakarta that fits well [Cocoon is Java web development, but only indirectly I think, ditto for Avalon]. Hen On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and server side java ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ). So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle. Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in that they don't focus on that subtitle. Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive. Just as a flamebait suggestion :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Henri Yandell wrote: Multiple PMCs is not a problem. There are James, Maven people on the Jakarta PMC etc. The idea below still concerns me. If all the PMC's share the same website, who is responsible for the website as a global concept. For example, the need to do mirrors. If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based] are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their websites. Why is this a problem? I think it is good to be that way. How is Apache website handled btw? May be we can follow suit? -Harish Hen On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: From what I have understood today, this seems like a nice option to me to straighten things out. +1 -Harish Dirk Verbeeck wrote: +1 If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution. No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general list, news and download pages, ... The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects) The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members. Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs. Is this possible? -- Dirk Noel J. Bergman wrote: There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Apache Logging Services project
Ceki Gülcü wrote: Good morning to all, The log4j developers are pleased to announce that the Board of Directors of the Apache Software Foundation unanimously passed a resolution for the creation of the Apache Logging Services project. A copy of the resolution can be found at: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?LoggingApacheOrg/BoardResoluion The Logging Services project is intended to provide cross-language logging services for purposes of application debugging and auditing. I wonder, will it include only Log4J (and sister projects, as stated in resolution), or Commons Logging, Avalon LogKit will be invited too? Vadim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ANNOUNCEMENT] Apache Logging Services project
Good morning to all, The log4j developers are pleased to announce that the Board of Directors of the Apache Software Foundation unanimously passed a resolution for the creation of the Apache Logging Services project. A copy of the resolution can be found at: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?LoggingApacheOrg/BoardResoluion The Logging Services project is intended to provide cross-language logging services for purposes of application debugging and auditing. The discussions leading to the submission of this resolution can be found at: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10711552621r=1w=2 We should also mention that thanks to the relentless efforts of many developers and in particular those of Scott Deboy, we currently have inter-operability between the following projects: * Log4Cxx (c++) * Log4CPlus * Log4j * Log4Net * Log4Perl * Log4PHP * JDK1.4's util.logging framework There is still much work ahead bringing in the various projects to work together within the Logging Services Project. The process is likely to take a little while. In the mean time, we will continue to do what we like best, that is developing open source software. Happy holidays to all, -- Ceki Gülcü For log4j documentation consider The complete log4j manual ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
Not really (my POV) As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject. But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe Bloggs works'. There simply is no one way of categorizing, hence there actually is no one community either. (ie. 'the jakarta community' simply does not exist in my eyes) The alternative is a one layer structure ASF to MyProject which gives full oversight, management and confidence both to the ASF and the ASF. Separately, there is a search website that allows searches by all the different ways that you might want to look things up. After all, the one layer (TLP) structure didn't harm Ant or James, and almost certainly benefitted Maven, Avalon and from the looks of it Log4J. In the end, actions will speak louder than words. Stephen - Original Message - From: Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's true, so back to Jakarta = Server side web development! But is it restricted only to Java web development or just plain web development? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: Because it's wrong. XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta. If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact it's in Java, or does it just depend on which community creates or invites the codebase. As they have to go through the Incubator now [or be fast-tracked with the board's new scheme Greg mentioned], is the community inviting them in as important as it used to be. I'd much rather find a real subtitle for Jakarta that fits well [Cocoon is Java web development, but only indirectly I think, ditto for Avalon]. Hen On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and server side java ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ). So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle. Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in that they don't focus on that subtitle. Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive. Just as a flamebait suggestion :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
I like the idea but does this mean we will be dumping the Jakarta banner? Or will it serve as an incubator for TLPs? The Jakarta banner has earned quite a reputation and would be a shame to dump it. -Harish Stephen Colebourne wrote: Not really (my POV) As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject. But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe Bloggs works'. There simply is no one way of categorizing, hence there actually is no one community either. (ie. 'the jakarta community' simply does not exist in my eyes) The alternative is a one layer structure ASF to MyProject which gives full oversight, management and confidence both to the ASF and the ASF. Separately, there is a search website that allows searches by all the different ways that you might want to look things up. After all, the one layer (TLP) structure didn't harm Ant or James, and almost certainly benefitted Maven, Avalon and from the looks of it Log4J. In the end, actions will speak louder than words. Stephen - Original Message - From: Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's true, so back to Jakarta = Server side web development! But is it restricted only to Java web development or just plain web development? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: Because it's wrong. XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta. If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact it's in Java, or does it just depend on which community creates or invites the codebase. As they have to go through the Incubator now [or be fast-tracked with the board's new scheme Greg mentioned], is the community inviting them in as important as it used to be. I'd much rather find a real subtitle for Jakarta that fits well [Cocoon is Java web development, but only indirectly I think, ditto for Avalon]. Hen On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and server side java ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ). So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle. Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in that they don't focus on that subtitle. Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive. Just as a flamebait suggestion :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Confused with PMCs, TLPs, ASF and Power?
Quoting Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Then try this: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta and the ASF appear, and possibly how they affect you. Be aware of the disclaimer at the top, however trying to distill any controversial topic to one page always ends up annoying someone. Stephen Stephen, Thanks for taking the time to attempt condensing an incredible amount of email (on an incredible number of mailing lists) down to a single page that highlights the key issues. I wanted to let you know that I just committed a small patch to the Wiki page -- where you said Note also that Struts committers have no rights to vote I added the parenthetical statement (unless they are also members of the Jakarta PMC) which is true for several of us. Indeed, the Jakarta PMC has been growing lately in a deliberate attempt to encompass committer representation from more Jakarta subprojects. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
Stephen Colebourne wrote: Not really (my POV) As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject. But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe Bloggs works'. There simply is no one way of categorizing, hence there actually is no one community either. (ie. 'the jakarta community' simply does not exist in my eyes) I agree that we probably can't define Jakarta in terms of content in a way that will make everyone happy. I disagree, however, that this means that there is no community, or that Jakarta should be dissolved. I would say that Jakarta = the community. What are called Products on the web site are what this community produces. Java is one common denominator, but so are some common release management and decision-making practices (currently under debate / revision). I am much less bothered than others about the fact that not *all* server-side Java in Apache is in Jakarta or that some Jakarta projects might belong elsewhere. I really don't see why this is a problem. The only real problem that we have is making sure that we have sufficient oversight. The middle layer makes that look like more of a challenge, but that's only if you assume that oversight has to come from a small number of Jakarta PMC members. Growing the PMC (as we are now) so that all community activity has has direct PMC oversight will solve the oversight problem. Phil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
Henri Yandell wrote: XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta. If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact it's in Java, or [...] There is an entire spectrum of possibilities between Jakarta as One Big Project, and Jakarta as a Confederation of Projects. And to be quite honest, so long as there is proper oversight, I generally couldn't care less where in the spectrum things get organized. When you come down to it, we ought to be facilitating an enlarged and healthy ASF Community, where everyone feels welcome to participate in whatever project(s) they find interesting. The PMC structure is about oversight. My view is that each subproject should decide how it wants to participate in the structure, so long as it ensures that proper oversight is provided. And this is why, however the projects decide to participate in a PMC, we should keep in mind that project organization does not have to be reflected by the web organization. If project P decides to have its own PMC, and wants to be present on the web as jakarta.apache.org/P, why should we say that it has to reside elsewhere? In fact, client-side-caching and performance aside for the moment, imagine if we had a new domain: my.apache.org which was running some portal software, and allowed people to customize their own view of the Apache Projects. People who wanted to track commits, news, e-mails, issues, and other information related to their favorite projects could see their customized portal view of the ASF. Perhaps impractical today, but just consider the possibilities when we stop thinking of the web site structure as reflecting our internal organization. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
Costin Manolache wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: [list of PMCs] All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. This is nothing I would encourage. There's really no question that it's legal. But it does then make Jakarta a website, rather than a community, IMO. I'd rather see the community. As I said in a reply to a message from Henri, I think that each project should be able to chose how it wants to participate in a PMC, so long as oversight is provided by the choice. But I still maintain that the web site structure does not have to, and should not be forced to, reflect that choice. Actually - it's jakarta PMC that does the oversight for Jakarta commons and all other jakarta subprojects. Hence my use of the terms de jure and de facto in my message. We have not made them the same, yet, but since we intend to do so, I see no need to debate the current status. :-) All committers who are active in jakarta are are willing should be part of the jakarta PMC. That's how things work in httpd and this is the right thing to do. If tapestry ( or any other sub-project ) doesn't feel like beeing part of a jakarta community or doesn't like oversight by the jakarta PMC - it is free to apply for top level status. I agree with both of those points ... so long as the second choice does not mean that the choosing project must relocate its web presence, although it may choose to do so. IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and server side java Agreed. So are we agree that if one of them chooses to form its own PMC, we won't force them out of Jakarta? :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 8:02 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on something. That's commonly known as FUD. I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember what you said. You said that decisions were being made in private. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? I'm not sure you do. But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is you making things up. The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ironic. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here. No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness isn't always convenient. And thinking things through isn't either. But sometimes it must be done. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember what you said. You said that decisions were being made in private. Oh yes, I hallucinated the [VOTE] threads too. Damn those hallucinations. I hallucinated the refactoring proposal and everything. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? I'm not sure you do. But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is you making things up. No Gier, take a deep breath and determine whether you distinguish yourself with this conversation. I shall give you the honor of the last word. -Andy The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ironic. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here. No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness isn't always convenient. And thinking things through isn't either. But sometimes it must be done. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:27 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote: +1 If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution. No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general list, news and download pages, ... The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects) The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members. Yes, the board gets 1 report from each little project. Jakarta is thus broken up. It think this is a bad idea. We have other problems to solve first. Lets solve them and take care of our responsibility for oversight. Then you can break up Jakarta for whatever reason you think makes that sensible. At least then I don't feel like we punted on the oversight issue. geir Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs. Is this possible? -- Dirk Noel J. Bergman wrote: There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code Struts PMC: struts and related code Jakarta Commons PMC: ... Tapestry PMC: ... ... All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses. We have had this confirmed already by both Greg and Sam. The above *is* an acceptable solution to the Board. The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:39 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should join as well. Either you believe that everyone should join (as I do), or that no one should join (as the break up Jakarta crowd would implicitly have it) other than to run a website. You get a big welcome from me if the former, and a good luck, do good work from me if the latter. geir -- Dirk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have? -Harish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Henri Yandell wrote: If all the PMC's share the same website, who is responsible for the website as a global concept. For example, the need to do mirrors. If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based] are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their websites. How do you think the Jakarta site works already? The site2 module is just the core Jakarta site. All of the projects already have their own sites in their own CVS, which are then checked out under the /www/jakarta.apache.org/$project. Nothing would have to change, unless a project *wanted* a new domain, from what I can see. Am I missing your point? I'm just not seeing the problem. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
I'm sure that Craig or other will correct my mistakes (I haven't been here quite that long :). Jakarta started as Tomcat and friends after Sun donated Tomcat to the ASF (hence the name 'Jakarta' :). As the project grew (sign of success), Jakarta grew to include projects that don't necessarily rely on Tomcat (but could be used with), nor that Tomcat relies on. This has been the traditional server-side-java test. Now, Jakarta has been having projects that want to leave to ASF-TLP status (e.g. log4j, ant, maven, james). This is calling into question what the 'Jakarta' name stands for now. What this thread is about is trying to answer this question: what, if any, is the mission of 'Jakarta' going forward. - Original Message - From: Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project? Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have? -Harish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message is intended only for the use of the person(s) listed above as the intended recipient(s), and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not an intended recipient, you may not read, copy, or distribute this message or any attachment. If you received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by e-mail and then delete all copies of this message and any attachments. In addition you should be aware that ordinary (unencrypted) e-mail sent through the Internet is not secure. Do not send confidential or sensitive information, such as social security numbers, account numbers, personal identification numbers and passwords, to us via ordinary (unencrypted) e-mail. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have? -Harish These comments are going to be (like anyone's would be) colored by my own personal experiences during the development of Jakarta -- including my ignorance of a lot of the details in subprojects that I'm not an active participant. But it should give you a little feel for the history of the place. The gist of the creation of Jakarta was around three facts: * Apache wasn't an incorporated entity (this is about four years ago now), but wanted to be -- and was formally becoming the Apache Software Foundation. * Apache had a project to build a servlet container (Apache JServ) at a website called java.apache.org which created a trademark-use issue around java. (I was a committer on Apache JServ, which is how I originally got involved in open source software.) * Sun wanted to contribute, and Apache wanted to accept, the source code for the servlet and JSP implementation called the Java Servlet Development Kit, and later published by Apache as Tomcat 3.0. Just as an item of slight historical interest, Jakarta was the name of the conference room at Sun where a lot of the early discussions took place. An organizational framework to focus on developing open source server side Java stuff was created to host these initiatives, and other related subprojects got proposed and added to the mix. As the number of Jakarta committers scaled from the original 10 or so to where we are today (hundreds), the original charter has become, umm, somewhat stretched. Ironically, it didn't take long at all for the scope of that original charter to get exceeded, because one of the little nuggets of code that was included in the original Tomcat contribution was a pure-Java build tool (to replace make) called Ant ... As more and more subprojects were added, there were some inevitable cases of overlapping scope, and overlapping implementations of the same ideas. One of the best things we've done (IMHO) was purposely creating a subproject (jakarta-commons) focused on making small, focused, reusable packages, and encouraging the larger projects to use them. Not only has this been successful within Jakarta -- there's been quite a lot of cross-fertilization among the web app frameworks, for example -- it's also created a fairly rich library of funcational packages that are widely used elsewhere. But one could really argue whether something like Commons Digester (originally designed as an easy-to-use tool to parse XML configuration files) really fit the Jakarta charter. Over time, there have been more than a few, err, voluminous discussions about how to scale up Jakarta from an organizational perspective, and whether the fundamental organizing principle was still the correct one. Does a focus on server side stuff exclude what could be some really interesting open source projects? Does a focus on Java make sense when just across the website there are things like xml.apache.org that are focused on a technology, not on an implementation language? Does it make sense to have community type projects that host individual software package projects at all? Coupled with these increasing concerns (at the ASF board level) about the ability of any oversight group (a responsibility delegated to PMCs in the ASF organizational structure), several original Jakarta subprojects (or even sub-sub-projects in some cases) like Ant, Maven, and James decided to become top level projects (TLPs) of their own -- this takes making a formal proposal to the ASF Board that gets accepted, and the formation of a PMC for that project. Those sorts of discussions continue to this day. Somewhat separately, but overlapping in time, it became clear that there needed to be a way to incorporate new developer communities (and in some cases existing codebases that were being contributed) into Apache. The developers (if they weren't Apache committers already) needed to learn the Apache way to do things. The code (if any) needed to be vetted for appropriate contributor agreements to protect both the ASF and those that rely on our code. Thus, the incubator project was created as a place for these things to happen. It is also actively evolving. personal-view To a large extent, the stresses that are felt as the ASF grows are actually a result of our success, and should not be looked at as signs of failure. I remember a statement from a consultant that one of my employers brought in along the way to deal with some important decisions when we had no consensus at all: The absence of stress is death. So, here's to having some more stress! :-) /personal-view Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL
RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC
Quoting Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Henri Yandell wrote: If all the PMC's share the same website, who is responsible for the website as a global concept. For example, the need to do mirrors. If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based] are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their websites. How do you think the Jakarta site works already? The site2 module is just the core Jakarta site. All of the projects already have their own sites in their own CVS, which are then checked out under the /www/jakarta.apache.org/$project. And all of those $project sites are under oversight of the Jakarta PMC. There is no such thing as a jakarta sub-project based PMC. Nothing would have to change, unless a project *wanted* a new domain, from what I can see. Am I missing your point? I'm just not seeing the problem. Although I'm sympathetic to the idea that Jakarta sub-projects who then become TLPs might want to maintain their jakarta.apache.org/$project web site for brand identification purposes, I'm concerned about the potential for external confusion over who's in charge here. The reality would be that the Jakarta PMC would (correctly) *not* think they had management over that subdirectory of the site, but the legal distinction would be very likely missed by anyone who is visiting. If/when Struts becomes a TLP, I'm going to recommend that we do exactly what Ant, James, and Maven (for example) did: * Maintain a link on the Jakarta home page under Related * Install a webserver redirect from http://jakarta.apache.org/struts to http://struts.apache.org. --- Noel Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
