Re: Farsi in opengl
Install gtkglext, it's got an example of how using Pango to render internationalized text in OpenGL. Simply pass your Persian text and it will take care of all your rendering. behdad On Fri, 6 Jan 2006, Ahmad Mouri Sardarabadi wrote: Salam, Man darhale neveshtam yeseri barname baraye estefadeye shakhsiyam ke az opengl estefade mikonan. man tavasote freetype(2) toonestam ke bitmap fonto baraye render dar opengl bedast biyaram ama baraye inkar ehtiyaj be estfade az shomareye daghighe harh arf az Arabic Presentation Forms B unicode hastam. soalam ine ke chetor mitoonam az tarighe digeyi mamande pango ya har systeme digeyi betore mostaghim az utf-8 shomareye monasebe fonto dar Arabic Presentation Forms B bedast biyaram betori ke betonam mohtaviyate yek text ro az utf-8 dar opengl render konam. maslan agar tabeye man render_gl(char *font,const unichar *text); man az g_utf8_get_char_validated baraye taghire fomat az utf-8 be unicode estefade mikonam. chegoone agar maslan texte man ba harfe che 0x0686 shoroomishe cheye aval 0xFB7C ro peyda konam? omidvaram ke tozihatam baraye fahme moshkel kafi boode bahse. Ammsa PS. man dar zamine virayeshe text darin had kamelan bitajrobe hastam khaheshmandam ke dar soorate momken tozihat hamrah ba mesal bashand. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Bad Farsi Fonts or something
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote: Also, I didn't know what to do with the fonts.conf file you pointed out, should I download and put in it my $HOME/.fonts.conf Yes, exactly. --behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: MySQL 4.0, FULL-TEXT Indexing and Search Arabic Data, Unicode
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote: Dear Behdad, On 25 Nov 2005, you wrote: Another options is to get yourself a real search engine, like Apache Lucene. I've written my experience using that here: http://mces.blogspot.com/2005/04/on-lucene-and-its-decency.html You always offer the most brilliant solutions!! Unfortunately, I have no experience with this mehotd. But I'm still eager. I read your weblog and met Apache Lucene homepage. I'm impressed. Would you tell us how you have integrated this Java-driven package with PHP at http://rira.ir/ ?!! It works really fast. That's the tricky part, or where the runtime-hell comes in. What I did was to write a small java program based on the samples in Lucene to connect to my database and feed the data into Lucene. At search time, I have another little Java program that takes the query string from command line and prints out search results to standard output. My PHP script then just fires up a shell script that in turn runs the Java program, piping the output into PHP... I don't have access to the Java codes at this time, but the PHP code involved is available here: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/rira/rira/php/page/search.php?rev=1.1.1.1view=log If you are developing in .NET, there is a functional port of Lucene to .NET too. There is even a port of an older version of it to Python. BTW, you need to make sure you compile it with Unicode turned on. I don't quite remember the details, but there was some. I also have a Persian class written for it, but it didn't do much anyway. In a few weeks I will get access to rira.ir server and hopefully move the site to the above sf.net project, so you can see what's inside. Thank in advance, Behzad Cheers, --behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Bad Farsi Fonts or something
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote: Hi I am having some problems with my Farsi fonts on my browser and in gedit on a Linux box (Fedor Core 4, Gnome ) My problem is Letter Ye is always rendered as though it was an independent or detatched letter. For example, in the word MILI (as in mili-second) all the Ye letters are rendered as it would with MEHDI where ye is not connected to de. Basically, you don't have good fonts, and that's the default on FC4 unfortunately :(. You need to install the FarsiWeb fonts package (available from http://farsiweb.info/) to start with. There is a fontconfig configuration file like this one: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/fonts-persian.conf This will be included in fontconfig-2.4 release coming soon. Some help is appreciated. Thanks Medi --behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
To answer the parts that other people didn't answer: On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Max Froumentin wrote: Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here: It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the same way as in English. Even in primary school? When kids learn to write 1+2+3 do they start straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of right to left text? Yes, that's what I remember. Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see: ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1 - 2 The last two are used in elementary school, but then in higher levels they fall back to 1/2 and 1 - 2 I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg') I've only seen a Persian operator for 'lim', and again, that's only used in highschool textbooks, not academia. So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched? I think a common practice is to use a fixedsize 'lim' which happens to be wider than the usual way the word is written. The word for 'lim' in Persian consists of only two letters, and that may not be wideenough to make it clear what's going on, so they typically use a stretched version. Max. --behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Arash Bijanzadeh wrote: I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of an equation in Persian True. Although the Persian notation for limit is not that common, many simply use the Latin lim notation. As for digits, we use Persian digits (U+06F0..U+06F9) in mathematics all the time. behdad On 10/17/05, Max Froumentin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [OK, here we go again. No attachment this time] After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going to investigate Hebrew and others. We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from Arabic. It's at http://people.w3.org/maxf/tmp/limf.png. I don't know any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is also special in that it appears to be stretchable. The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation have any such particularities that would make its layout different from other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would then require special constructs in the MathML language? Thanks for any insight, Max. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing -- from debian manifesto: Debian Linux is a brand-new kind of Linux distribution. Rather than being developed by one isolated individua l or group, as other distributions of Linux have been developed in the past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU. --behdad http://behdad.org/ Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill -- Dan Bern, New American Language ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed
Hi all, Max Froumentin from the W3 consortium is seeking feedback on Mathematics in Persian. His message to the list was bounced for some reason, so I'm forwarding his message. Please keep him CCed when replying. Thanks, behdad = From: Max Froumentin [EMAIL PROTECTED] After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going to investigate Hebrew and others. We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from Arabic. See attached image. I don't know any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is also special in that it appears to be stretchable. The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation have any such particularities that would make its layout different from other right-to-left languages, like Arabic, and that would then require special constructs in the MathML language? Thanks for any insight, Max. ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: another request for feedback
Thanks Connie, I had a joyful afternoon (re)reading the story with a couple of friends. I've put a link to it on my homepage. behdad On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Connie Bobroff wrote: Hi Everyone, I always ask for your help in various projects... This time it's one of your favorites, a Majid story by Houshang Moradi Kermani. I need to know if you see any mistakes in Persian spelling or content in general and if there are any technical bugs. I believe this will only be viewable on WinXP + IE6 or Firefox, Win2000 SP2 + IE6, OS X + Firefox and certain flavors of Linux. Others will probably have missing characters or problems with diacriticals. Please find lots of mistakes before the innocent language learners visit the site. They don't know how the Persian is supposed to look or anything about Persian computing. Most will probably enter the site here: http://persianintexas.org/menu03.html and the index page is here: http://persianintexas.org/nazem/ I have built this website from tips and insights from our previous discussions. Several of you, especially including but not limited to those with the beh component in your name were involved in the production and without whom I would be completely lost. Also, the biggest thrill for me was that Mr. Moradi Kermani is just an email away in Tehran and helped a lot. What a wonderful man! He is right now just writing a few words of encouragement for the language-learners which I'll put in the FAQ and then besides a couple small jobs, I'm done and you can be sure I'm exhausted! Thank you in advance for any and all feedback. -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: farsi language auto-detection in web pages
On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote: Hi, Thanks for reply, What I exatly need is CP1256 detection, and after that detecting whether the language is persian or not. As you can guess, all non-Unicode character sets share the same 8-bit space, so they overlap all the time. Your only bet at charset detection is to look at the areas that are left unencoded in each character set and cross-out charsets as use those forbidden areas. As for language detection, that can be used in charset detection too, you can look for the string SPACE REH ALEPH SPACE as a good indicator of Persian. Regards, --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: farsi language auto-detection in web pages
On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote: Hi, How can I auto-detect language of a webpage without knowing it's charset? (suppose language and charset is not defined in header) Is there a simple (not time-consuming) method to detect a page charset? If it's UTF-8 or UTF-16, kinda easy, not really otherwise. Regards, --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Two new fonts from SIL
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Behnam Rassi wrote: Hi, SIL International has recently released two new fonts, Scheherazade and Lateef, both in two versions of AAT (for Macintosh) and OT (for the rest). They are quite good. Check them out at: http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php? site_id=nrsiitem_id=ArabicFonts Interesting. Thanks for the link. The fonts don't look good on my laptop though, Arabic looking still. Cheers, Behnam --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: jalali
It's completely free. You can get it in source code or binary from this page: http://www.farsiweb.info/wiki/Main/Products behdad On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Sajjad Ebrahimi wrote: salam http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2004-May/001214.html fekonam inja beshe ye file baraye pocket pc peyda karad? foroshiye ya majani ? cheshekli mitonam yedone tahiye konam? khahesh mikonam javab bedin mer30 --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: cp 1256 to utf8
iconv -f CP1256 -t UTF8 inputfile outputfile On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, khazaee wrote: hello all. I want to change the character set of a text file from CP1256 to UTF8, which one is better? : 1) use of high level library like icu or iconv from glibc. 2) low level transformation and use of wchar_t data type,(byte by byte) i mean does icu library or iconv functions do that perfectly? Or do you have any ideas? regards! H.khazaee ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: New versions of Persian stemmer syntax parser
On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, Jon D. wrote: For anyone who's interested, new versions of a Persian stemmer, two-level morphology engine, link-grammar syntax parser, and character encoding conversion scripts are available for download. All of it is under the Free license GPL v.2 Web demonstrations for the Persian stemmer and the syntax parser are available also: http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/stemmer.html http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/persianlg.html Hi Jon, Can you please educate us on how these are supposed to work? I can't get anything out of them. I choose UTF-8, and type a verb in the stemmer, I get back the verb verbatim. Thanks, --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: ALL COMPUTER BOOKS IN THE WORLD
Please do not send stuff like this to this list again. behdad On Mon, 30 May 2005, Ali Sadeghi wrote: Hi all, http://ebuki.apvs.ru/downloads/ all you need is a russian proxy to download through. For example use the ones in: http://www.web-hack.ru/proxy/ Ali Regards, Ali Sadeghi Ardestani Eghtesad Novin Bank - Tehran/Iran IT Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 0098 21 878 8960 Fax: 0098 21 888 0166 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: leap year issue with jalali
On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: No, I don't. But the best is trying to get someone fix the bug from the C source and recompile. There are many Windows users out there. roozbeh I'll go a remove. If anybody cares, somebody would send along. Ehsan? --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: leap year issue with jalali
What do you mean I also checked? I think you just checked the jalali.exe. This is an old bug that have been fixed in C source, PHP source, PalmOS, etc, but I don't know why Roozbeh likes to keep he buggy executable around. Roozbeh, do you mind if I remove it? behdad On Sat, 26 Mar 2005, Ali Sadeghi wrote: Hi people! Please check jalali algorithm with 2005/03/20 and you will get 1383/13/01 ? I also checked it with the jalali.exe. The same problem! BEWARE! Regards, Ali Sadeghi Ardestani Eghtesad Novin Bank - Tehran/Iran IT Dept. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: 0098 21 878 8960 Fax: 0098 21 888 0166 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6 (fwd)
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: I'm not sure how the date data type can be representation agnostic. What ever the OS provides (via a system call) is in reference to a starting point in some calendar. On UNIX systems, this is traditionally the number of seconds since January 1, 1970, i.e. Gregorian. GetSystemTime on Win32 returns a structure, which represents the Gregorian date. The UNIX epoch can easily defined as the number of seconds since 11 Dey 1348. The important data is a date in the sense of a point in the axis of time. How you write it out, depends on one speific representation though. --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6 (fwd)
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote: Now something else , For AddDate and DateDiff functions, I need an algorithm which calculates the number of leap years between two given Date. Is there any such algorithm or at least a documentation for the above algorithms (jalali.c) so that i can find it in the code myself? (Or AddDate, DateDiff functions ready in ideal case) Regards, Mohsen A. Momeni Well, that's why I'm saying your implementation is not what MySQL people expect. The date data type is representation-agnostic itself, and AddDate, DateDiff, etc work with the date data type (at least in MySQL). What you need is functions to covert from internal date representation to Iranian calendar string, and vice versa. You don't need (and should not) implement all date functions again. --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: The New Alef
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: There has been a new Alef around for quite a while. For those who don't live in Iran or haven't seen it yet for any reasons, a photo is available at: http://bamdad.org/~roozbeh/alef.jpg Smart! That can be useful in hex numbers written in Arabic script too. Indeed they want it to look like one letter, and don't want the Alef to be read as 1. It's used on car plates, but the exact usage is disputed among a few friends of mine. What do you mean exactly? roozbeh --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Jalali Calendar in MySQL (was Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5)
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: And if you are using the mysql frontend (i.e. Command line?) http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/date-and-time-functions.html has the full set of functions for handling date. Most of the functions there are calendar agnostic, like DATE_ADD, et al. BTW, if you really need Iranian calendar in there, I suggest writing it as an stored procedure. Then you don't need administrator priviledges to install the procedure, any user can do that. cheers, Masoud --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6
On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote: No. Wrong. So you say we should still fight about our calender name? I mean yes, if we have not come up with a name yet, we can continue discussion, of course you are free to call it fight or whatever. No. They simply are not interested in your functions. They were interested, as their first email showed that. They accept it but i got no answer after that. Then your implemention has been poor. Again no. Calendars does not belong to databases. I didn't say they belong to databases but having calender functions in mysql will make these calcultions much faster in programs instead of doing them in php. No. A C module for PHP is as fast, if not faster, than doing them in MySQL, which is apparently the wrongest place you can implement them. What about in the kernel then? Faster? --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Jalali Calendar in MySQL (was Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5)
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: I think it kinda does. After all, if they have some sql functions to deal with the dates stored on the tables and databases, if some guy (read government office or whatever) wants to store persian dates in the db, they have to have two conversion functions from Jalali to Gregorian(sp?) and reverse. Then you have these conversion functions in your programming language and convert as part or preparing your SQL query. --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5
Hi, On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote: Hello, About jalali or Iranian calender, i think fighting about what the name should be is of no use and will make a lot of problems for us. I know everything about them. that Jalali calender is based on calculation and iranian calender has a astoronomical basis. But all these arguments will lead to our failiur for having a standard calender in iran. No. Wrong. I have added Jalali (Persian , Iranian , ) calender to MySQL as a set of functions having J at the beginnig of each of them. But I think developers of mysql has read all these arguments in mailing lists and may decided to forget about the patch as I have got no aswer till now. No. They simply are not interested in your functions. I think we have one target and that is having jalali (or ...) calender in our databases NO MATTER WHAT THE NAME IS. Again no. Calendars does not belong to databases. --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard
Well, [softening my throat] like Ehsan already mentioned, then only trick is to use RTL paragraphs, and not only right-align the paragraph. That solves most of the problem. For the remaining few cases, these things called LRM and RLM should be used. behdad On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: The problem, as some of you might have guessed, is the direction switching. Given an application like MS Word, my keyboard correctly sends the characters, and Word gives them the right form. But sometimes some characters (mainly the shared chars), and often the blinking caret appear on the wrong side of the line. What can be done to make the shared characters (Like !) to appear on the correct side? The caret problem can be fixed with Word's RTL command. But mixing English and Persian letters in the same line often leads to unpredictable outcomes. The rule of the thumb is, use RTL paragraphs when writing Persian text (which might contain English text within it) and use LTR when writing English text (which might contain Persian text within it.) Is there an algorithm governing these situations that I can use to modify the output to remedy this? There is an algorithm called Unicode BiDirectional Algorithm, the details of which is avaibale on Unicode.org. As you might have guessed, Word doesn't provide a correct implementation of this algorithm (nor do any other text editors that I know of to this date.) There's a library being developed called FriBidi, of which Behdad is the project maintainer, IIRC, which might help you, but not with Word probably. I guess Behdad would be able to make profound comments on this. - Ehsan Akhgari www.farda-tech.com http://www.farda-tech.com/ List Owner: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MSVC@BeginThread.com [Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 4
On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Saied Nesbat wrote: This sounds like overkill, a roundabout way of doing that has to be done a lot simpler. Am I missing something? Since the Unicode characters have the information, should Word not at least act as a simple box? Implementing the whole Unicode in Microsoft way means a lot of code which results in a lot of binaries, so they simply can't install them all 'just in case'. You need to explicitly ask it to install Arabic script support... Best regards, Saied --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Saied Nesbat wrote: Thanks Behdad! You're welcome. I have gone through your slide presentation online and I am trying to sort out things now! Good. So you mean each para should be wrapped in RTL PDF pair? I have experimented with outputting RTL, but in some apps (mainly Word) it does not seem to have any effect. Is there a setting in word that can remedy this? No, paragraphs should not be wrapped in anything. Some systems automatically detect paragraph direction based on its content (basically the first alphabetic letter), but apparently Microsoft systems don't. So you've got to push a button in Word for that. I'm sure you can find answers to all your problems here: http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/persianwp.htm Do you know of any tool that correctly implements the protocol, so that I can use it for testing? The gedit text editor from the GNOME project is a good example. Basically anything using latest GNOME libraries implements this. Best regards, Saied P.s., My friend Farhad Msoudi who just visited Toronto tells me that the a huge portion of the CS dept of Toronto university is Iranian. Congratulations guys! Thanks. behdad -Original Message- From: Behdad Esfahbod [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Persian Computing List Subject: RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard Well, [softening my throat] like Ehsan already mentioned, then only trick is to use RTL paragraphs, and not only right-align the paragraph. That solves most of the problem. For the remaining few cases, these things called LRM and RLM should be used. behdad On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: The problem, as some of you might have guessed, is the direction switching. Given an application like MS Word, my keyboard correctly sends the characters, and Word gives them the right form. But sometimes some characters (mainly the shared chars), and often the blinking caret appear on the wrong side of the line. What can be done to make the shared characters (Like !) to appear on the correct side? The caret problem can be fixed with Word's RTL command. But mixing English and Persian letters in the same line often leads to unpredictable outcomes. The rule of the thumb is, use RTL paragraphs when writing Persian text (which might contain English text within it) and use LTR when writing English text (which might contain Persian text within it.) Is there an algorithm governing these situations that I can use to modify the output to remedy this? There is an algorithm called Unicode BiDirectional Algorithm, the details of which is avaibale on Unicode.org. As you might have guessed, Word doesn't provide a correct implementation of this algorithm (nor do any other text editors that I know of to this date.) There's a library being developed called FriBidi, of which Behdad is the project maintainer, IIRC, which might help you, but not with Word probably. I guess Behdad would be able to make profound comments on this. - Ehsan Akhgari www.farda-tech.com http://www.farda-tech.com/ List Owner: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MSVC@BeginThread.com [Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] --behdad http://behdad.org/ --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: It seems that kompare have problems in FC3 with UTF-8!
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Hedayat Vatakhah wrote: Yes, you are right. But, just to be a little more exactly, this program also let me to merge preferred differences, and the reality is that the main problem is here, because it (in FC3) can't save the result in proper UTF-8 encoding and the result is not usable. I haven't any problem with it in FC1. It's a little strange for me that command line programs have not any problems with UTF8 while some of GUI programs have that. For another example, the replace in files in Quanta+ (in the menu it is find in files) have problems for replacing Persian characters while sed works well! This is becuase command line tools are mostly from GNU coreutils package, which is heavily tested, but GUI tools are... you know. Thanks again --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: It seems that kompare have problems in FC3 with UTF-8!
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2005-01-18 at 09:03, Hedayat Vatakhah wrote: ITNO GOD Hi everybody, Kompare is a useful program for me. May I ask what is Kompare exactly? No, because you have not SedTFE. And you even don't need that. Kompare is the KDE name for Compare, which probably is a GUI application for showing the diff(1) between two files. roozbeh --behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: farsiweb.info
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: I'm not sure. What I can say for sure is the image won't render correctly in IE. Hmm, BTW, at a second look, IE fails to render the layout correctly as well! Of course that's not as bad as how the background image looks. List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Humm, would you check http://farsitex.org/? I think it worked in IE when I designed it. Thanks a lot for the feedback. Behnam, would you please make sure the design works in IE and Mozilla at least. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: farsiweb.info
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Connie Bobroff wrote: In any case, many people in Iran turn off images anyhow for faster viewing so you may like to design the site so that it works both with and without images. You sure? It was true a few years back, but I don't think it's still the case. People download MP3 and watch Flash animation these days. By the way, I also may be lacking perfect sight but I didn't see a link to: A link to PersianComputing on farsitex.org? Or farsiweb.info you mean? Note that the content on farsiweb.info is just a reshuffling of the old stuff. With the new system, we will start updating the content soon. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: farsiweb.info
Ah, that's a good sign, that none of us at FarsiWeb uses IE anymore! BTW, IIRC, 8bit transparent PNG works in IE too. b On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: Hi friends, The FarsiWeb Project's website http://farsiweb.info/ is now up-to-date with a new Wiki system. Congrats on the new site! I took a quick look, and I have a comment regarding the design. It seems to me that you're using a transparent PNG file as the background for the pages. IE doesn't support this feature of PNG files correctly, so the pages render half unreadable on IE. I suggest changing this, and the easiest way would be not to use a transparent PNG (no need for that, anyway - just let the background be white.) Fortunately real browsers (Firefox, and Mozilla) do render it pretty fine! Other than that, the layout seems very nice. Thanks for your efforts. - Ehsan Akhgari Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/) List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Publishing Persian Poems on the Web!
Hi Sina, I've got some experience doing that, but I'm not yet convinced that people should start designing schemas from scratch. I believe one should start from Docbook or something like that. You should consider contacting Omid Milani [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]. He's THE guy for your work. He an expert in XML technology, and has designed Persian schemas for such things like plays, articles, poetry, etc. BTW, one experience I've got from working on http://rira.ir/ is that there's no such thing as a beyt. I mean, a poem is a sequence of verses, just that. There should be no element called beyt in your schema. I know it's a bit controversial, I don't insist on it, feel free. behdad On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Sina Heshmati wrote: Hi, I'm currently involved in designing a new standard to markup Persian poems. XML Schema is used to define the markup vocabulary. The XML instance of the schema is written in Persian, including element and attribute names, etc. I've also hacked two style sheet layers (XSLT and CSS) as well. However the presentation model is beyond the scope of this post and demands a completely separate discussion as well as different contributors. I ask anyone, who's familiar with the structure of Persian poems, and (meta)data associated with them, to participate in our new and open standard on the Web. I found this mailing list a reliable and convenient place for our further discussions to take place. Best Regards, Sina --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Unicode - ligatures
Hello, In short: You are supposed to ignore both Arabic Presentation Forms blocks. They are not part of the Arabic model of Unicode (except for Rls character of course). Longer answer: Many (lazy) implementations, use the Presentation Forms - B block as a glyph encoding to shape Arabic in the Unicode namespace and pass the shaped string to the rendering engine, which by definition, is the place that character to glyph mapping should have been done. Fortunately with OpenType fonts, you don't need to worry about shaping at all. They define their supported glyphs and shapes all in the font itself. About the joining algorithm, no, Unicode joining algorithm does not support Presentation Forms all! behdad On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Peyman wrote: Hi, I hope somebody in the forum answer my question ASAP: What is the use of Arabic Presentation Forms - A in Unicode (Range FB50-FDFF). I understand we may use some symbols like /Rial/ by a single code (FDFC) but what I don't understand is the ligatures. Do we need them all If we want to design a Persian editor? Or some of them? Basically, what is behind the joining algorithm? For example, we have the code 067E for /p/. Do we need to implement FB56, FB57, FB58, FB59 for initial, middle, final, and isolated forms of /p/ in the involved algorithm? Peyman --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian numbers in Glibc
Actually Qt already does that. Otherwise all Hamed said is right and precise. On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, mohsen ali momeni wrote: Hello everyone, Does Glibc support persian numbers? i mean does it interpret persian numbers as real numbers? As i tested ,it's not so , i mean there is no support for persian numbers in glibc.am i right? Is there any application in linux supporting persian numbers?Should this support be added to any application that is supposed to support persian language? regards, Mohsen --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 15, Issue 10
Please write in English when posting to this list. If you like to answer in any language other than English, exclude the list address please. behdad On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Mohsen Saboorian wrote: salam Salam, man saeid hastam, mikhastam beporsam agar dar zabane java bekham ye araye az reshteh ra be zabane farsi print konam chekar bayad bokonam.,,.. bastegi dare bekhahi tooye console print koni ya tooye ye frame (masalan JFrame). tooye console be in asoonia nemitooni chon bayad consolet farsi support kone (pas rooye Syste,.out.println() hesab nakon). Mitooni be asooni ye String ro az character haye Farsi (masalan ba encodinge cp1256 = Windows-Arabic) por koni va ba estefade az Swing ya AWT namayeshesh bedi. Rahe dige ine ke Stringeto az character haye Unicode por koni. in karo too java mishe ba \u anjam dad va bayad jaye X ye adade mabnaye 16 gharar bedi. merc az komake shoma ya Ali. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Vi/Emacs editor with RTL support
Not anything really useful. Vim has a rightleft mode (:set rightleft), which is useful for ONLY RIGHT-TO-LEFT text. Emacs, it's worse: there's an emacs-unicode branch, an emacs-bidi branch, and the emacs-head branch. They are trying to merge the three of them for a few years now! behdad On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: Hi all, Sorry if this question is too basic. Is anyone aware of a version of the vi editor (preferrably) or Emacs which have support for right-to-left languages, including Persian? If they already support this, should I do anything special to turn RTL support on in those applications? Thanks in advance, - Ehsan Akhgari Learn Linux in Persian: http://www.persian-linux.org/ --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Vi/Emacs editor with RTL support
On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: Thanks for your reply, Behdad. So, is there any editor you would recommend that has good support for bidirectional (Persian and English) text, and preferrably supporting HTML (but an editor without HTML support will also be just fine)? The latest one I'm working with is Bluefish, but it has some minor problems, and I'm looking to see if there's something better available. The only editor I use these days is gedit. It has some syntax highlighting features. TIA, - Ehsan Akhgari --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: utf-8 based Persian collation function
You are quite right. On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, hamzeh khazaee wrote: Hi All. Dose anybody know that MySQL use of glibc for collation functions or implement it in itself? (utf-8 based collation function for persian support) it seems that MySQL does not use of glibc collation function (strcoll()) but i'm not sure. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Behaviour of U+002F in IE and Mozilla
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote: Hi, Since the Arabic thousand separator, U+066B, is not commonly in use, most of Persian sites use /, U+002F, instead. The behaviour, when it is used between numbers, is different in IE (and MS Office) and Mozilla. Which one is the correct one? The behavior was changed between Unicode 4.0 and 4.0.1! With the latest Unicode version, using Persian digits, in a Persian paragraph, something like 1361/07/05 will render 1361/07/05, not 05/07/1361, which is a good thing. (Using Arabic digits instead of Persian digits most probably result in the other way). Best -ali- --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: IPA2 Official Web site...
I'm wondering, ..., didn't you really know that IPA already stands for International Phonetic Alphabet and is widely in use? On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, D.A.S. Moslehi wrote: Hello, International Persian Alphabet (IPA2)'s official Web site went online. http://www.persiandirect.com/projects/ipa2/ Persian Linguistics Association (PLA) Home http://www.persiandirect.com Regards, DASM --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Bidirectional Layouts in Gtk+ -- Slides
Hello, I'm writing this mail from Ottawa, spending the most wonderful week of the year here, featuring: Desktop Developers' Conference 2004 http://www.desktopcon.org/2004/schedule.php Linux Kernel Developers Summit 2004 http://www.usenix.org/events/kernel04/ Ottawa Linux Symposium 2004 http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2004/schedule_static.html So, everybody's here, you name it, Alan Cox Telsa, Owen Taylor, Havoc Pennington, Keith Packard, ... (Linus Torvalds? I didn't see him yet, should be) Ok, to the point. I talked today about Bidirectional Layouts in Gtk+. You can find slides here: http://behdad.org/download/Presentations/bidi-layouts/ I've prepared them for 1024x768 screen, and using Mozilla. Excuse me in advance if you see garbage on other browsers. Comments are more than welcome. Cheers, --behdad behdad.org PS. My other presentations, papers, etc are always at: http://behdad.org/download/Presentations/ http://behdad.org/download/Publications/ http://behdad.org/download/Conferences/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Educating Google about Farsi
Hello listers, I'm setting up a petition against using Farsi, in favor of Persian. It's not a regular petition, but a Google petition. You should have seen a couple of them before. Here is the petition page: http://behdad.org/farsi.html To support the petition, all you need to do is to add a link to this page in your pages. Something like this does the job: Don't just say a href=http://behdad.org/farsi.html;Farsi/a. Use your imagination. See http://behdad.org/ for an example. Thanks in advance, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates
On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: Hi Behdad, You are right, that was my mistake. I had some wrong perceptions about U+060D that made me believe it would belong there. I am starting to feel I need to import all those data files into a database for quick reference. I am getting tired of having to find information scattered across so many different places (book, charts and various data files) I still feel there should be a better way for organizing all the information in Unicode. - Hooman There are applications out there that do this. Under Linux, gucharmap is such a one, but not really that Unicode-oriented. Under Windows, the unicode.org releases an application for that but unfortunately I don't recall the name right now, nor I can find it on their site. But I'm sure there is, I downloaded it last month (and couldn't run!). --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates
On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: Hi Behdad, Hello, Glad to hear the good news. Is there anything that may impact end users? If there is, please provide a none-technical overview of the changes that will affect normal users of Persian text on computer. No, not really. What I meant about U+060D is that I expected to find something about it in /UNIDATA/PropList.txt but it wasn't there. That is the reason I asked. Now I have figured it out. Both the applicable defaults and also explicitly in UnicodeData.txt. Sometimes I find UCD (Unicode Character Database) files confusing. Is there any hope they will be cleaned up further? For example, why not explicitly include characters in all expected places instead of relying on fallback and default properties? I'm confused now. What do you expect in PropList.txt about U+060D? If you read UCD.html, it says that files like PropList.txt just list those code points that hold a true value for the binary property. Why they don't list the all?? Why should the do? There are more than a million of them, while poins of interest are usually less than a thousand ones... behdad - Hooman On Jun 24, 2004, at 12:17 AM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find the properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard? No idea. What kind of information are you looking for? If this is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-) Ok, here comes the more info from Chapter 8 of Unicode available online at: http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/ch08.pdf#G20596 It says: Date Separator. U+060D ARABIC DATE SEPARATOR is used in Pakistan and India between the numeric date and the month name when writing out a date. This sign is distinct from U+002F SOLIDUS, which is used, for example, as a separator in currency amounts. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find the properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard? No idea. What kind of information are you looking for? If this is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-) Ok, here comes the more info from Chapter 8 of Unicode available online at: http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/ch08.pdf#G20596 It says: Date Separator. U+060D ARABIC DATE SEPARATOR is used in Pakistan and India between the numeric date and the month name when writing out a date. This sign is distinct from U+002F SOLIDUS, which is used, for example, as a separator in currency amounts. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: BTW, Behdad is attending the Unicode Consortium's Technical Committee meeting right now, and later the ISO JTC1/SC2 ones. I'm sure the UTC meeting (which will be the first with a FarsiWeb member present) will have good news for us (which may include more changes and clarifications to the Bidirectional algorithm). Yeah, I'm exceptionally happy with the outcome. Since the changes are highly technical, I don't go over them in this list. Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find the properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard? No idea. What kind of information are you looking for? If this is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-) --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the books or streets whatever. The streets stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published books: I'm not convinced with your examples. I don't accept them as authentic. Let's see inside: http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg While it looks like they have put all Kasre's, but there's none after Moini, which is evidently pronounced in more places that the one after Rahim. http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg Naaser-e Khosro is a WEIRD. I have never heard anyone pronounce it like that. Everyone just says naaser-khosro just like it's a single word. And again, it's not first-last name combination. http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg I pretty share Mr Khanban's opinion here. To me, ma'soome-ye ma'dan-kan looks like anything but personal name. What about ma'soom-e haftom? -Connie The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are people printing that thing in reality. I don't like to argue about how widely it's used anymore. If someone has an evidence of Persian Academy putting this Kasre, please bring the issue up again for our reconsideration. Thanks, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khatt e Farsi
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote: Hi folks, What I want to conclude on khatt e Farsi debate considering member's ideas (at least for myself) is: 1- For Arabic Script equivalent in Unicode locale for our language, alefba ye arabi seems acceptable to me. Script has two translations as Behdad mentioned to me 1-/khatt/ 2-/alefba/. However, because of addition of Persian specific characters /p/,/g/,/zh/, and /ch/ we'd better call it alefbaye farsi-arabi which is equivalent to what Conie said Perso-Arabic Script. Iranians have contributed to this alphabet any way. khatte arabi has lots of cultural and national issues, one of which ignoring our linguistic heritage, the efforts our ancestors did to adapt the new writing system to our language. Did I said that? alefbaa is simply Alphabet. 2- For our writing system we use khatt e Farsi. It may be translated to Persian Script but should not be used for Unicode locale description. khatt is not merely writing styles, it has language specific rules and structures. No Arab is able to read our khatt correctly unless (s)he has knowledge of Persian language. No matter an Arab can read it or not, but it's the same script. Reading deals with language. A German can't read English text either unless he knows the rules, same for a Frenchman, ... After resolving this issue, I try to go through the nice draft and give my suggestions if any. Good luck, Peyman --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are people printing that thing in reality. Behdad, I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal names is absurd. Well, not quite that. First, we never wanted to *forbid* that, just that we say the right way is not to put. Second, my expression is quite like this: Thanks, Connie, you showed us that there are people printing Arabic Yeh instead of Persian Yeh in reality. Can you deduce from this sentence that using Arabic Yeh instead of Persian Yeh should not be forbidden? (And in fact a few people like Dariush Ashoori do that intentionally.) Have a really nice day! You too. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Personal names survey
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though. Eagerly waiting for them. As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even though someone was recently saying Google can't handle harakat, I decided to try my luck and the first name I tried, Shirin-e Ebadi gave me this: http://www.kanoon-nevisandegan-iran.org/Shirin.htm (look in the second line of text) Another: http://www.vajehmagazine.com/archive/no_2/dialog.asp (line 15: Sohraab-e Sepehri) There are zillions. How many examples will you guys be needing? I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two examples. Compare with... errr.. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Personal names survey
Hi Connie, To be honest, I have NEVER seen anyone put Kasre in personal names. I just tried all books in my small shelf and NONE of them had kasre on the cover page. Note that all of these books have been bought in the past year in Tehran (Enghelaab). Here is the list of names I checked for curious: Nasim Daavari AbooToraab Khosravi NikAahang Kowsar Seyyed Ebraahim Nabavi (3) Jey Di Salinjer (8) Ahmad Golshiri Hooshang Golshiri (6) Mostafaa Mastoor (4) Mishel Foko Maani Haghighi M. Aazaad va Said Tavakkoli Asadollaah Amraaii Reymond Kaarver (4) Farzaane Taaheri Ja'far Modarres Saadeghi Shirin Ta'aavoni (Khaaleghi) Meelaad Zakariaa (:D) Mohammad Najafi Itaalo Kaalvino (3) Mohsen Ebraahim Seyyed Mohammad Ali Jamalzaadeh Kort Vone-gaat Joyner Eyn. Alef. Bahraami Negaar Saadeghi Ali Abdollaahi Hermaan Hese Keykaavos Jahaandaari Haaynrish Bol (3) Naataali Choobineh Ahmad Shamlou (5) Fedriko Gaarsiaa Lorkaa Abdolkarim Soroush (2) Iniaatsio Siloneh (2) Mehdi Sahaabi (2) Mohammad Ghaazi Simon Dobovaar Roman Gaari Soroush Habibi Tooraj Rahnamaa Farzaad Hemmati MohammadRezaa Farzaad Feredrish Vilhelm Niche Dariush Ashouri Abbaas Ma'roufi Zoyaa Pirzaad (2) Simin Daaneshvar Bozorg Alavi GholaamHossein Saa'edi Saadegh Hedaayat (2) Noam Chaamski Koorosh Safavi Ahmad Kasravi MohammadRezaa Baateni MohammadRezaa Mohammadi-Far (9) Aandri Taarkofski Hooshang Hesaami YaarAli PoorMoghaddam (5) ... So, here it is. Do you still say all the time? If you still insist on that, I'm afraid your opinion should not be counted, because apparently it's not the practice in Tehran. behdad On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Many other things may also be optional (like how to write ordibehesht, zi-hajje, or hejdah), but we are only allowing one, There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic. You are giving incomplete and wrong information. And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However, now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see. all the time. Sorry! Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk. Well, all the time does not, in fact, mean all the time in English. It just means all the time. You know, a synonym for sometimes! Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin? -Connie ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote: Conclusion: You can say that the origin of our alphabet is Arabic but you can not claim that our writing system is Arabic. Our writing system is Persian khaat e farsi. It is what my teacher Dr. Safavi as a linguist says in his book and what I also say as a linguist. We have been all talking about the script (which you call it alphabet), not writing system. And if they call both of them khat-e farsi in Persian, that may be the source of the problem. Just let me know if more linguists are needed to testify :) however, what linguists believed and struggled to say has been ignored extensively during past years. Dr Bateni proposed a minor change to our writing system long ago in order to better serve the Persian language; and they ignored him and fired him from the Tehran university because of political and religious red lines. Peyman --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
The book can very easily be biased. The sentence ... dastkhosh-e taghiraati besiaar jaaleb shod, ke neshaangar-e aagaahi-e iraaniaan az daanesh-e zabaansheniaasi ast. is far from justified. Don't know why, but it reminds me of the Persian vs. Farsi problem... On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote: The attached .jpg is a text from the book pishineye zabane farsi written by Dr. Safavi. Peyman --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: khaat e Farsi
Thanks a lot Hooman for clarification. Also about the attachment we saw, note that Naskh, Nasta'liq, Koofi, etc are all different calligraphic styles of the same Arabic script. So even the attachment saying khatt-e naskh ... khatt-e faarsi naam gerefti is completely non-sense here. There are much more important things that define the script, not the number of letter, calligraphic styles, pronounciations, etc. The fact that you can read what's written in those 20 countries without any training, and that there exist situations that you simply can't tell between them, is what matters IMO. And note that it's quite natural that most of us have not ever heard such a grouping before, but all linguists will tell you this is the Arabic (or Perso-Arabic) script. behdad --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Mirroring in Unicode
Hi Ordak, This is not a problem in the Unicode Bidi Algorithm, not even in Microsoft's implementation of the algorithm. And mirroring seems to be working quite well. The problem is in the higher level protocols of your system, which simply does not recognize right-to-left paragraphs. So your paragraph direction is left-to-right, and that's why you see it like that. Microsoft systems have no way of auto-detecting paragraph directions. In notepad you can set the whole document direction to rtl or ltr. In MS Word you can set direction for individual paragraphs. GNOME has recently applied a marvelous patch to autodetect paragraph directions in the most sophisticated way, so we're just having fun with our text editors ;-). behdad On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: I noticed that certain mirrored characters appear semanticly wrong on my Windows XP machine. I have no idea if it is a problem of Unicode BIDI specs or is due to Windows XP imeplementation. I describe the problem here, hoping people who know Unicode better pinpoint the source of it. I if type in: (farsi), that is the sequence T A R SP ( f a r s i ) (capital stands for RTL text), the result is RAT (farsi) However, if I type in () that is the sequence T A R SP ( F A R S I ) the result is ISRAF) RAT) Obvisouly the parenthesis are wrong in the second example. Now, if this is a unicode spec problem, I think they need to fix this. How the above text appears on other platforms? ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Hi all, Well, it depends on your point of view. Instead of bringing the Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent. They all call it Latin Script (khatte laatin), right? It's not about language or font-style. And in computer software that's what really matters. Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script encoded in the Unicode standard. behdad On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Hi, The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian). Look at http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu? Best -ali- Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in proprietary software. The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping in the funding. I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar, Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me. Roozbeh Pournader Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 22:50, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Over our dead body! The whole world is still to solve that cursor movement problem, and you expect... I expect to solve that ourselves (say, FarsiWeb and FriBidi teams), at least for the perspective of Persian and Iranian users. Is it *that* hard? So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited by those words? We don't need to pass over our own dead bodies. They will fund, we will solve their problem. IRI is IRI, period. By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor problem at least. roozbeh --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Let me inject my foolish questions in the middle of this hot flaming discussion. What is the cursor problem exactly? And why is it hard to solve? Is there an FAQ on open problems in Persian Computing? Hi there, Well, the cursor problem is not Persian-specific, but bidi-specific. The problem is that in a text editor with mixed right-to-left and left-to-right, you have a cursor and Left and Right arrow to navigate in the text. Now design the movement and cursor shape such that it behaves in an expected/easy to learn/predictable way. About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't have it anymore. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote: And, if someone starts a list, please add the problem of selecting a mixed text (english/persian) with a mouse. No matter what you do, or how experienced you are, you'll always get surprised. Yeah, that's known as the twin of the cursor problem. Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing? so people would describe their problems /known bugs there? or am I just talking from _the_ unpleasant organ of my body? No, you are talking about a very pleasant organ of your body ;-). The wiki is already planned for FarsiWeb, we can open a section to public. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 13:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: So don't say it this way that they are doing this great project which will save the humanity blah blah... You still get excited by those words? I am excited, since I saw some output from the people involved: A commercial probabilistic English to Persian translation engine, a tagged corpus of pronunciations for lots of standard Persian, an OCR that worked wonderfully for handwritten disjoint Persian letters, and a script that inserted all the kasre-ye ezaafes automatically (which worked not only on whole sentences, but even on things like book titles). Let's just say this: Isn't a database of famous people and places' names and their Persian translation not exciting if released as Open Source, something that tells you Democritus is zimeghraatis and Casablanca is daar ol-beyzaa? Specially if someone already has it? These indeed look exciting, but in my laptop, not theirs. I get excited when I see people who have done something that stays with us. I get excited when they mention they'll be doing everything Open Source without anybody pushing them. And it was not only me. Sure, if it really stays with *us*. They'll be doing is what I asked if you still get excited about. Man, how many yours you have been in this business? IRI is IRI, period. Does that make everybody living in IRI a fool?! No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results wasting oil money. You know I'm so disappointed about the National Persian Linux project. By the way, yes, it IS that hard, the cursor problem at least. I know. But it's not something unsolvable by the FarsiWeb team, at least theoretically. You don't agree?! I'm afraid not. I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically prove it can't be solved. But of course that would be theoretically, not practically. (that bidi is not reversible simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?) roozbeh BTW, guess enough of this thread. Find another interesting thing to continue this beautiful month. :-) Ok, Professor Yarshater, the author of the great Encyclopedia Iranica[1] is going to be around in two weeks. I may get the chance to conduct a short interview with him. So, ideas about what to ask, what to focus, is appreciated. [1] http://www.iranica.com/ --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:33, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't have it anymore. And I don't even remember doing it! :'-( When was it? :)). Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't nothing. roozbeh --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote: We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents; There is a big difference between *we never write* and *we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in certain situations. In this case, if the draft says says that one may not mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially for authors on book titles all time. No this is not a new rule, nor the spec is wrong. They *never* write that in Iran. You may write mohsen-e rezaai only for example to distinguish it from mohsen-e rafsanjaani, but this way the two parts of the name are appearing as two different phrases, not one. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Kasre Ezafe in proper names, Was Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: Well, you were very helpful with the ghash-gir topic so what is your problem here? Here, I will ask this: Do you agree that sometimes you say, behdaad-e esfahbod and other times you say, behdaad esfahbod? (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.) And my next question is going to be, when? Ok, as I said in another mail, you say behdaad-e esfahbod when you want to differentiate from behdaad-e pournader. Just that. That should keep you busy for a while! -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: IRI funded projects like Persian Linux (Was Re: something else)
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:51, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Man, how many yours you have been in this business? I can't remember. Many. And seeing how little amount of output I have produced, I'm clearly a waster of my time, it seems. Come on. This is one of those tricks of yours ;-). I mean how many people you have seen *interested* in doing Open Source and left without warning... No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results wasting oil money. The project won't be run by IRI. It will be run by an NGO. I don't get all this NGO thing. The money it comes from oil, passing a handful of hops, divided by two a handful of times... You know I'm so disappointed about the National Persian Linux project. That project is generally wasting oil money, I agree. Better work can be done much cheaper with a much better quality. BTW, the Persian Computing community may be interested to see the technical output of certain projects there. I personally appreciate any discussion of the following documents here on this mailing list: Good (a specification and implementation for Persian fonts): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/10/opentype.zip Very good. Contains a list very good reference font for Persian font designers. BTW, their patched Pango is next to useless to me, since there's no patch provided, no information about when they did check out Pango, etc. Roozbeh, can you ask them for a set of patches instead? I can probably help feeding the patches to Owen Taylor. Bad (a specification for the Iranian calendar): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar3.pdf http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar4.pdf Not even worth the bandwidth! :(. Ugly (Compilation of some non-standard Persian fonts *released* by a project who is supposed to write a specification about requirements of a Persian keyboard driver for Linux): http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/6/Farsi_Font_Linux_2.zip No comment. I'm afraid not. I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically prove it can't be solved. I'd be happy enough with that. I'll call that a solution. I know you will always be happy with this discoveries of mine :-). (that bidi is not reversible simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?) Can't get the idea. You need to elaborate. But it's OK with me if you want to close the thread. So I promise to go back to the joining code after this last reply :D. I was just saying that since bidi is not reversible, you can't predict the next cursor position, either in your logical, or visual string. Think a couple of seconds and you get the idea. Remember Gaspar Sinai's concerns about bidi in Yudit? Nothing really new, all I say is that there's no *perfect* solution out there. But that means nothing with the mess we have right now. On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:55, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't nothing. Yeah, that was not about Persian Computing. That was about internationalizing and localizing GNU/Linux software for Persian. I believe the GNU/Linux part has just been the medium. But Ok, it was not about details, but the big picture. So, we are all waiting for the wiki. BTW, I'm living with this song of Bob Dylan these days: http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/hattie.html TC --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
Thanks a lot Roozbeh for making the release. Just the first point to discuss: People use sadom-e saaniye, not milli saanie. You can hear it in IRI news too. Also, tak tak should be written using ZWNJ, no matter what orthography regulations you use. More later. behdad On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for the Persian language of Iran. It's available from: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write to us at the following address: Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. PO Box 13445-389 Tehran, Iran Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in proprietary software. The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping in the funding. I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar, Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me. Roozbeh Pournader Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc. ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf Congratulations on getting a new typist who is not allergic to Hamzeh's! But where did all the Kasreh's marking Ezafeh's go this time? And why no ZWNJ on plural -Ha's? Well, Roozbeh should give the answer, but my guess: It's typeset in Persian Academy's orthography. Is that really true you aren't supposed to put a written Kasreh after given names? I know it's definitely not ok (spoken or written) with Rezaa ending in long aa but with Mohsen ending in a consonant? I believe it is common to both write and pronounce the -e there between given and family name. Please inform me. No, Kasreh Ezafe is neither used in written names, nor in spoken formally. By the way, I have received a PDF file from Iran recently in Persian and it was possible to copy and paste from the PDF text into Notepad and all the letters came out perfectly, only the letters were running backwards from left to right. I can't seem to copy and paste with yours. It ends up in garbage characters. Wish I knew these PDF secrets! No idea. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Misinformation!
Thanks for you note. There's a difference in the case of C++ standard and web standards: Writing non-standard C++ code only produces compile-time problems, but if you happen to compile the code, it works correctly (or supposed to do so). But it's quite a different case in web. 30-40 percent is low enough to get ignored, counting that the other way you are sacrificing the other 60-70% for not being able to find the document by searching in Google. And note that even with Win9x and a recent IE, and updated fonts, there's no problem. About using HTML entities, no matter what the encoding of the page is, HTML entities generate Unicode characters. It's quite common to see people exporting Persian documents in MS Word, and get an HTML page encoded in MS Arabic encoding, with Persian Yeh and Keh encoded in HTML entities. behdad PS. BTW, I just found that using Harakat (kasre, fathe, ...) also prevent a hit in Google search :(. That's quite expected, but perhaps I should reconsider my habbit of putting those tiny marks everywhere. On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: Unfortunately this kind of misinforming is quite popular in weblogs, where people only care about being visible to more people. I confess that I'm one of those who use this technique on their web sites. I don't believe it's correct, and I don't think of it even as a semi-elegant solution. It's a solution which just works on the largest number of platforms. By inspecting the web server logs, I notice that still an average of 30-40 percent of the visitors are using Win9x. Hopefully one can start dropping support for Win9x users as their number is constantly decreasing, but right now if I choose the standards compliant route of using FARSI YEH everywhere, those Win9x-ers will not be able to browse my sites. I have a high respect and tendency to the standards. I'm mostly a C++ programmer, and I'm one of those preachers of the C++ Standard. However, today's C++ compilers are still not fully compliant to the C++ Standard, so whenever someone asks me for advice on how to accomplish a certain task on a non-conformant compiler, I show them the non-standards way, and also mention the standards way, so that they know what the *right* way is, and also what the way to do their job right now is. I see little difference in the web standards land as well. Of course this 'solution' (if it can be called so) poses other problems, such as the inability of correctly indexing of such words with both forms of YEH by search engine spiders such as Google's, which must be addressed separately. Also, if you choose to use the FARSI YEH form everywhere, then again such problems will occur (such as a Win9x-er can neither correctly see your pages nor fine them in Google; if they query for a word containing YEH.) They even go on and use HTML entities (like #1626;) instead of UTF-8, just because if the user's browser is set to something other than auto and UTF-8, the page is still rendered correctly... This one is silly, and I don't see how this can solve any problem. The browsers are required to be able to correctly resolve such numerical entities only if the page's encoding is already UTF-8, and if it is so, why not use UTF-8 encoded characters in the first place? Also, some agents have difficulties interpreting such numerical forms. Furthermore, maintaining them is impossible (not hard), and even they can't be treated as text by most software packages (for example, they can't be searched for by many programs.) And the last, but not least, for a regular Persian document, they're likely to increase the document size by more than two times. They have their own usage, of course, but I don't see any sense in using them instead of UTF-8 characters for regular web pages. - Ehsan Akhgari Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/) List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ] ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Misinformation!
Hi there, Well, this approach has been investigated by some people already. Another approach that is easier to implement is use a javascript to translate the page on the browser side. For people using PHP, it's a couple on lines to open an output buffer that does the translation, and I'm sure we've seen that before in this list. But to the main question, unfortunately no, Unicode does not define any kind of loose searching. There are some loose equivalency data in Unicode database, but that apparently does not include cases like Arabic and Persian Yeh. We at FarsiWeb are developing an standard for loose searching in Persian, but you know that's nothing to be implemented by Google. It's generally a tough problem. You can do much better in language-specific area, but a global loose searching scheme, I guess, typically gives a worse precision/recall, so will be avoided by search engines. behdad On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Here is a solution (in fact a hack) that if implemented correctly, can resolve some of the issues till people and Google start using correct software: With a little tweaking, the web servers can translate the correct Unicode to the incorrect unicode desired so much by the Win9X users. That is, the web severs looks at the browser request, and if it can detect Win9X, translates all U+06CC's in the document to U+064A (and all other required translations). The same technique could be used to fool google into generating correct search results. That, is the web server generates a Win9X friendly version of the document and appends it to the original document. You can also allocate tags that the user of the web server can disable or enable some of these features. This may even make one gain some advatnage over other web hosting companies. Of course, the solution above is only a transient one, and it is up to people to upgrade their Win9X machines to something that is Unicode-compliant, also it is up to Google to program their systems such that it can understand that both U+06CC and U+064A are the same shape and hence should be regarded the same for searching unless user requests otherwise. This is the same as case-insensitive search that is usually implemented by mapping all upper and lower case characters -- in documents and queries alike -- to uppercase. Behdad, does Unicode consortium provide a search collation table in addition to the collation table used for sorting? Or can the same table be used for this seach purposes as well? On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:50:41 -0400, Behdad Esfahbod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for you note. There's a difference in the case of C++ standard and web standards: Writing non-standard C++ code only produces compile-time problems, but if you happen to compile the code, it works correctly (or supposed to do so). But it's quite a different case in web. 30-40 percent is low enough to get ignored, counting that the other way you are sacrificing the other 60-70% for not being able to find the document by searching in Google. And note that even with Win9x and a recent IE, and updated fonts, there's no problem. About using HTML entities, no matter what the encoding of the page is, HTML entities generate Unicode characters. It's quite common to see people exporting Persian documents in MS Word, and get an HTML page encoded in MS Arabic encoding, with Persian Yeh and Keh encoded in HTML entities. behdad PS. BTW, I just found that using Harakat (kasre, fathe, ...) also prevent a hit in Google search :(. That's quite expected, but perhaps I should reconsider my habbit of putting those tiny marks everywhere. On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote: Unfortunately this kind of misinforming is quite popular in weblogs, where people only care about being visible to more people. I confess that I'm one of those who use this technique on their web sites. I don't believe it's correct, and I don't think of it even as a semi-elegant solution. It's a solution which just works on the largest number of platforms. By inspecting the web server logs, I notice that still an average of 30-40 percent of the visitors are using Win9x. Hopefully one can start dropping support for Win9x users as their number is constantly decreasing, but right now if I choose the standards compliant route of using FARSI YEH everywhere, those Win9x-ers will not be able to browse my sites. I have a high respect and tendency to the standards. I'm mostly a C++ programmer, and I'm one of those preachers of the C++ Standard. However, today's C++ compilers are still not fully compliant to the C++ Standard, so whenever someone asks me for advice on how to accomplish a certain task on a non-conformant compiler, I show them the non-standards way, and also mention the standards way, so that they know what the *right* way is, and also what the way
Re: Persian-English Dictionary
Just my last words: * Like Mr Khanban, as I wrote in my long report before, I checked it with the one-volume Aryanpur dictionary and all 20 entries I checked matched perfectly. * Even if people have changed 90% of it, the rest 10% is copyrighted by Aryanpurs. Copyright holders accumulate, not replaced. * Every individual is responsible to make sure he's not infringing anyone's copyright. In other words, you are responsible to check the software you are handed in is done so legally. * No I'm not joining the joy in sharing the Aryanpur dictionary. Thanks behdad On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote: Hi, I just repeat an old story again. I don't want to prove or disprove or claim anything. About ten years ago, there was a dictionary in DOS environment written by Bahman Sabouri (if I recall correctly) with a database claimed to be based on Aryanpour dictionary. I can accpet that claim because I checked many of its entries against a one-volume Aryanpour dictionary and it seemed to be the right source (One-volume Aryanpour dictionary by AmirKabir publishing co.). It has the ability to add words to the database. By the time I had that copy of the software, the database had some extra words added by previous users. I decoded the database and created a text file. Then I started to modify it and correct mis-spelled words and typos and anything I thought must be changed. I didn't intend to do anything with it at the time. I did it just out of curiosity and challenge. Masood Hashemi was and is a friend of mine and was our FoxPro master in the department. We decided to use that data for a FoxPro dictionary and he did the job. Because I was the one who somehow had provided the data and he was the programmer, both of our names were in the program as the authors. I saw a copy of that program a few years ago in Shiraz, in one of my visits to Shiraz medical university. Now, if we accept that the data in Masood Hashemi's online dictionary is the same data, which is a strong guess, then by this short history you know exactly how that was provided. I should add that at the time of that DOS software, we were not aware of any possible copy right on this data, as I believe neither was the original author. Or maybe the fact was that no one cared about it, even AmirKabir publishing co. who was the Aryanpour publisher. I am not sure, anyway. Best -ali- Pedram Safari wrote: In any case, I would like to testify again that the program is written by Masood Hashemi, so there is no copyright infringement if his share in this work, and his willingness to make it available to the public, is acknowledged and appreciated. There has been no official claim yet by anyone on the source of the database (I think Majid Khanban said that he supervised a project by Masood Hashemi and someone else from which this database came out, but he couldn't recall the name of the other person, am I right, Majid?). Neither any official claim by anyone on the dictionary content, unless you, Behdad, are Aryanpours' official attorney. As I had promised before, I would give appropriate credits in my dictionary page to the person who could produce convincing proof of his/her involvement in that project. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Iranian Mac User group
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote: Also I just heard from Ali Samadi that the Iranian Mac User group (in Persian) is actually at: http://www.irmug.org (I think I had a mistake earlier.) -Connie Hi Connie, I appreciate it if when you are mentioning this Iranian Mac Users Group on any of your pages, you also mention there that their dictionary available for download is infringing copyright of the Aryanpours, and the credits went to Masoud Hashemi are not justified. I guess I did my part on showing the community, including Dr Pedram Safari, that the claim by Masoud Hashemi regarding authoring the dictionary which is apparently Aryanpour, is not justified. Whether people remove the dictionary from their pages or not is up to them. --behdad ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar
So, to conclude, I think we better don't touch the 33 implementations we have until we've got a real calendar. Just talking about FarsiWeb of course. Other people are free about what they choose. behdad On Mon, 24 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: I did some more research on the accuracy of different leap year algorithms. My conclusion is that unless there is an implementation of an astronomical algorithm, we SHALL use the 33 year period, as it gives the best estimates for near future and near past. That is, use the following: bool isLeapYear = ((y*8+29)%33) 8; I used the following table of vernal equinox times for years 1788-2011: http://www.newscotland1398.net/equinox/vern1788.html I computed the length of year for each year. and unfortunately, I could not find any simple curve to fit the length of years. Assuming that the real vernal equinox does not differ from the table above by more than +/- 10 minutes, and that the noon will be at 12:04:20, I am convinced that this formula is correct at a minimum from 1178 to 1468. At the same time, the Birashk's method and hence Omid K. Rad's implementation are only correct from 1244 to 1402. Another way to interpret this email is that Birashk's method fails to correctly predict the year 1403, and hence if we use that mehtod, all dates in year 1404 will be off by one day. On the other hand, using the 33 year period mentioned above works fine until year 1468. So, for all applications that need to convert near-term dates, my recommendation is to use a 33-year implemntation, like the one found at http://www.farsiweb.info or the one at http://www.payvand.com/calendar/. -- ODC ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: LeapYears of Iranian Calendar
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: Ordak's 2820 year method: bool isLeap2820ODC = ((683*year+542) % 2820) 683; in comparison to: Birashk's 2820 year method: bool isLeap2820Birashk = ((year % 2820) == 474) || (((31 * ((year+2345) % 2820)) % 128) 96); I second that. Here is my version, in a desktop calculator friendly (and macrowize side-effect-less) way: #define is_persian_leap(y) y)-474)%2820+2820)%2820*31%12831) The discrepancies will be in: years that Ordak considers leap but not Birashk 603, 731, 859, 1787, 1915, 2043, 2171, 2299, 2427, 2460, 2555, 2588, 2683, 2716, 2811, 2844, 2939, 2972, 3067, 3100, 3133, 3195, 3228, 3261, 3295 and years that Birashk considers leap but not Ordak 602, 730, 858, 1788, 1916, 2044, 2172, 2300, 2428, 2461, 2556, 2589, 2684, 2717, 2812, 2845, 2940, 2973, 3068, 3101, 3134, 3196, 3229, 3262, 3294 Caveat: According to: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/TropicalYear.html The length of year is decreasing each year. According to graphs in http://www.angelfire.com/dc2/calendrics/ The real length of vernal equinox year (Iranian year) is increasing each year (from 351 BC to 3175 A.D.) According to Iranian tradition, vernal equinox should happen before noon (I think it means astronomical noon). So, there is not much we can do with simple algorithms other than trying to approximate the real world, and understanding the fact that ALL calendar algorithms are only APPROXIMATIONS. -- ODC Well, so what do you suggest? Working on an approximate astronomical algorithm or go with Birashk's? --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar
Hi Ordak, Lemme welcome you to our list. Comments below. On Tue, 18 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote: - As the lunar calendar in Iran is observation based, there is no way to have an exact conversion for a date in future to/from lunar calendar. However, it is possible to do so for past dates. What I suggest is that the implementation SHALL convert dates precisely for past dates, and do a best guess conversion for future dates. Hence, the conversion algorithm (or a related resource) needs to be updated at most 12 times a year, and in case of Iran, only at the beginning of Ramadhan and Shawwal. This update could as well be propagated through a network protocol like NTP (Network Time Protocol). Also, the conversion shall try to conform to the official published Iranian calendar for future dates in the same year. For future years, it should calculate the lunar calendar using astronomical methods. That has been our (FarsiWeb's) idea too. BTW, the protocol better be XML-RPC over HTTP. - Mordad vs. Amordad. I have seen both in calendars, but I guess I do not count, as I have been out of Iran for a long time now! Anyway, I have only seen Amordad in day planners marketed at the higher end. So, in my opinion, Mordad or Amordad are both fine. Although I prefer to see Mordad myself. But, I think this should be a user option. And does not need to be implemented at the convesion level Omid is working on. I still vote for Mordad. Using Amordad is like writing Ordi-Behesht instead of Ordibehesh. The fact is that, languages change over time. It's like using Shaksepearean English. - b.z vs. asr. I do not know the flexibility of the API, but it would be nice if we can have three designators, sobh, asr and shab. sobh is for 6:00 am to 11:59pm. asr for 12:00 am to 5:59pm, and shab for 6:00pm to 5:59am. The time ranges are not exact, but they are close to what you hear if you want to set appointments in Iran. Exactly. In fact I have proposed this one: 00:00-00:59: Nimeh-shab 01:00-06:59: Bamdad 07:00-11:59: Sobh 12:00-12:59: Zohr 13:00-18:59: Asr 19:00-23:59: Shab - Jalali vs Iranian. I strongly prefer Jalali, as it refers to a spcific method of keeping dates regardless of the country it is used in. For example, if were still under Qajar rule or Pahlavi rule, then we would have either used Hijri-Qamari calendar or Shahanshai, still both would have been considered Iranian calendar. So, in a country which has recently changed its official calendar a few times, we better stick to a name that will be in place regardless of the government. I am under the impression that the current calendar is use is techincally Birashk's calendar. Birashk perfected the old Jalali Calendar (which had 33/128 year periods vs 33/128/2820 year periods of Birashk). I'm still against Jalali, because as Roozbeh mentioned, the Jalali calendar has been different in number of months. To be exact, we should call it Birashk, but since it's highly unprobable that the Iranian calendar changes again, I say lets stick with Iranian Calendar. About Shahanshahi era, a good converter can assume years 2500-2600 are in this era (Hint Hamed). - Birashk's book. He had published a book on his work, if memory serves me, it was called 'taarikh-tatbighi-ye Iran'. He had a few examples of different date conversions, using a rather large table for lookups. That table could be used as a test vector for the date conversion utility. I once did my own derivations to derive his table, and except one entry, my code and his table conformed. I never figured the source of the discrepancy. I just ordered the book. Will let people know when I get my hands to it. -- ODC PS. I hope no one gets offended by my chouce of pseudonym. Looks like we have found a great man. Would you mind introducing yourself and telling us more about your background? Later, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: P.S.: Although Hijri calendar (and definition of the prayer times) look very strange and primitive, there is a very good philosophical reason behind it which makes sense once you know it. Do you know the reason or want to know it? Yeah, the reason is to synchronize sleeping time of all people, so people like me do not wake up 4PM when all offices close! --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Miscellaneous web issues
On Sun, 16 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote: 2. When viewed on WinXP/Mozilla1.7a, the ZWNJ's completely throw off my mouseover javascript program. It can not find words with ZWNJ. And look what happens if you mouseover the Tajik eqivalent: it displays the Persian word ok but no ZWNJ. This problem not seen with IE. I left out all harakat just so it would work in Mozilla (and Macs) so I'm sorry to see this new problem. I've observed a very similar bug that should be the same as what you explain: ZWNJ put by JavaScript in UTF-8 format in the page is completely thrown away. As a solution, if you replace all ZWNJs with \u200C in your JavaScript source, it works. [BTW, your Herat#1 and Herat#2 MP3 files seem silent to my player.] --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Miscellaneous web issues
On Sun, 16 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote: 1. When viewed on WinXP/IE6, look what happens when you mouseover the Persian words at the end (i.e. left margin) of each line. You also pick up the space to the right of the first word in that line. Similarly, if you attempt to mouseover the first word in the line and are just a little off the word to the right, you unfortunately will pick up the last word in the line. Is this a bug or just my usual crazy coding style? This problem not seen with Mozilla. Also not with left to right languages. Remove all leading and trailing spaces in your spans and it should work. BTW, RTL paragraphs are a must. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Iranian Calendar
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: On Sun, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right? So we forget about Jalali name, and call it Iranian Calendar, quite like Chinese, Japanese, and other countries. Iranian Calendar is okay IMHO, but I like the Persian Calendar better for the name of the calendar system, since it covers more countries. In Iran we use the Iranian subtype of the Persian calendar, and in Afghanistan the Jalali subtype is used. I don't know about Tajikistan. Fortunately in .NET it is possible to define subtypes for a calendar system provided that they use the same algorithm but differ in day names, month names, date patterns and so on. But the Iranian and Afghan Calendars do not use the same algorithm. The Afghan algorithm is more or less the Gregorian one... Just keep in mind, the whole complexity of the Persian Calendars is the leap-year calculation. When Iran and Afghanistan have two completely different leap-year calculation algorithms, I see absolutely no point in merging them and then sub-typing... Omid --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar
Hi Hooman, Thanks for the question. I go with Iranian Islamic Calendar. I think Primary/Secondary and Solar/Lunar are both very bad names. And Islamic makes sense since that's what this calendar is called in English, so ours is the *Iranian* Islamic Calendar. And then Iranian Calendar and Iranian Islamic Calendar should be clear enough that which one's primary and which secondary. behdad On Sun, 16 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote: Hi Behdad, I have a question (targeting you and everybody else working on Persian locale projects such as .Net) The lunar Hijri calendar used in Iran is also an official calendar and is calculated independent from other Hijri calendars used in other islamic countries. It is an important calendar, since it determines half of the holidays on our calendar. We also know that it has slightly different month lengths than other Hijri calendars. Are you going to identify and support that calendar as well? Then what would you call it in English? The answer to this question may affect Iranian Calendar term as well. If you ask me, we can keep Iranian Calendar and call the Hijri calendar Iranian Secondary Calendar or Iranian Religious Calendar or something like that. I think we should avoid solar / lunar designations in the English name to make it more meaningful and less confusing for none-Iranians. With the same logic one may suggest using Iranian Primary Calendar instead of Iranian Calendar to emphasize the fact that more than one official regional calendar exists in Iran. My final verdict? I need to sleep on it for a while. Hooman Mehr On May 15, 2004, at 2:36 PM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Hi, Just trying to close an item in the long open agenda of the list. So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right? So we forget about Jalali name, and call it Iranian Calendar, quite like Chinese, Japanese, and other countries. As for the rules, we at FarsiWeb have found enough evidence that the 2820-year periodic calendar of Birashk. We will later release the codes for that and replace our different ports. Please send your comments. Hamed, you are supposed to work on this, right? Thanks, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Iranian Calendar
On Sun, 16 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: Iranian Calendar is okay IMHO, but I like the Persian Calendar better for the name of the calendar system, since it covers more countries. In Iran we use the Iranian subtype of the Persian calendar, and in Afghanistan the Jalali subtype is used. I don't know about Tajikistan. Omid, I still vote for Iranian Calendar because within that huge geographic expanse, there are various non-Persian speaking groups. Iranian is a little more broader term with a geographic sense as well. It is also used by linguists, for example to describe dialects spoken outside the borders of modern Iran to differentiate between the related Indian subset of Indo-Iranian. Iranian is also not perfect, but as you say, you can subset your .NET categories. Would you please tell me why Iranian is not perfect? I'm perhaps reacting to more of the fallout from this Farsi vs. Persian mess. One hears even more improvements/abuses of Persian in the English language, as in, for example: Daddy, look over there. There's some Persians speaking Farsi! : -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar
On Sat, 15 May 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Sat, 2004-05-15 at 14:36, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Just trying to close an item in the long open agenda of the list. So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right? I don't know. I know that we can't reach consensus on other things, and I also know that consensus doesn't matter that much here. As people define consensus, it is like at least 75% of the talking part of the community. Here, most of the community don't talk at all, and I'm sure that if you take a poll, from those who vote some will still insist on Jalali, or Solar Islamic, or Hejri-e Khorshidi, or Persian. They will mention personal preference if you ask the reason. ;) You are self-conflicting yourself. I define consensus as 100% vote of the talking community, and again I say we have reached a consensus here. What we should look for, is clear and reasonable objection. There hasn't been any such objection for Iranian calendar. As for the rules, we at FarsiWeb have found enough evidence that the 2820-year periodic calendar of Birashk. I didn't get you. Would you please reword? Oops, I close the sentence in the middle. I just meant that 2820-Birashk is the best system to implement. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar
On Sat, 15 May 2004, Hamed Malek wrote: On Sat, 2004-05-15 at 14:36, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Hi, Just trying to close an item in the long open agenda of the list. So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right? So we forget about Jalali name, and call it Iranian Calendar, quite like Chinese, Japanese, and other countries. As for the rules, we at FarsiWeb have found enough evidence that the 2820-year periodic calendar of Birashk. We will later release the codes for that and replace our different ports. Please send your comments. Hamed, you are supposed to work on this, right? Yes. And I think except the original code, we can prepare GUI for it in some desktop environments like GNOME. Sure, the following ports are expected. I have put in parantheses the status of the old Jalali code in every platform: * C (released on farsiweb.info) * PalmOS (released on farsiweb.info) * PocketPC (released on farsiweb.info) * Win32 (released on farsiweb.info) * PHP (released on farsiweb.info and iranphp.net) * Perl (in CPAN) * Java (I did, never released due to license problems) * ICU (Roozbeh should have something) * JavaScript (never released for no reason, but accessible from my weblog source) * .NET (someone sent us, never released due to license problems) * GNOME (someone sent us, never released for no reason) * TeX (released in FarsiTeX) * LaTeX (Roozbeh should have) * libical (not done) People, any other requests? Hamed I will appreciate if you go on and do the ports too :-). --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Iranian Calendar
On Sat, 15 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote: Can you please be sure to mention in the documentation somewhere also about the Shaahanshaahi calendar and how to convert and what's its official name was and abbreviations, if any? That will be nice if that system also makes its way into online conversion tools. It's a real problem in places like Academic libraries when someone is, for example told to catalog a book and there is something like 2536 which appears to be a date, yet there is often no abbreviation or calendar designation and the poor cataloger has to run around looking for an expert and waste a lot of time. Well, Hamed, you take care of this too, right? :). BTW, the rule is simply that 2535 maps to 1355 IIRC, or was it 1350? So a simple shift is enough. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Iranian Calendar
Well, this calendar is used in Iran, is computed with Iranian rules. Afghan calendar is completely different. Something no body said is the Tajik people. I've heard they use the same calendar, is it right? On Sun, 16 May 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Sun, 16 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: Would you please tell me why Iranian is not perfect? Because it's hard to please everyone at all times. Maybe some Baluchi tribesman won't appreciate being lumped with Iranian. Maybe someone from Afghanistan, not having heard this discussion and how hard it is to find a name will say, Oh, so those guys at Sharif think we are now a subset of Iran, eh? (I think that's why Omid was going with Persian!) And then there are the people who will also use this .Net data who know nothing about the region at all and all these names are a big blur... There is Iranian in the modern sense and then there is the broader, historic Iranian and someone who thinks the naming decision was made carelessly and without taking cultural sensitivites in mind, will find some way to make a fuss. Whatever you choose, better put a lengthy footnote and disclaimer. That said, I truly do think Iranian is best. Daddy, look over there. There's some Persians speaking Farsi! : I thought you'd like that! -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: [3.2.3] There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars ^^ Common? How about, acceptable or something like that? Well, right. How about this phrase: [3.2.3] There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to left. I'm not sure how month calendar makes sense in English. What about writing in tabular representations? It is now updated here: http://www.idevcenter.com/projects/iranl10ninfo/draft/#3.2.3 --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: The offical translation of term Interface
Can someone please write the translated word in UTF-8 or Faargilisi? On Wed, 5 May 2004, hameed afssari wrote: Hi All; Farhangestan Zaban Farsi ( #1740;) has translated Interface to but this sounds a bit out of context when it comes to the usage in software User interface To be more specifc I want the translation in the context of Language interface Pack in Which if we go by Farhanestan's approved term we get something like which is not a descriptive term. Please let me know if you know of a better term(s) Thanks; Hameed Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sun, 2 May 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Sat, 2004-05-01 at 19:38, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: the *correct* way is to order from right to left. I confirm. The screenshot I sent was just for making people see something. The preferred direction is right to left and then top to bottom. Now that you mentioned that, I elaborate. I didn't want to raise it here ;). [The message has an attached image, if it does not get through, you can find it here: http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/cal.jpg (20kb)] The current layout we are used to is top to bottom, then right to left. It means, rows are arranged top to bottom, then in each row, cells are arranged from right to left. This one turns out something like the first one in the attached image. But I remember seeing wall calendars with direction right to left, then top to bottom. This is the second layout in the attached shot. And the third one in the screenshot attached is the first layout, but instead of single letter day of week names, I have used something more intuitive, but apparently it's quite a failure and should never be used. roozbeh Later, --behdad behdad.orgattachment: cal.jpg___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Abbreviations et al.
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: Nice examples of abbreviations/shorthands/whatever: * The first page of Mosahab Persian Encyclopedia (first published in 1345/1966), about the abbreviations used in the encyclopedia, showing different methods of Persian abbreviation (127 KiB): http://www.farsiweb.info/misc/mosahab-abbr.png Nice construction, but none of them are actually used these days, except for: ALEF LAM KHEH: widely used. BEH MEEM: For AD, is not used, but a single MEEM is used instead. It's context sensitive so, the same thing means translator in other contexts. SAD: widely used as (SAD). SAD ZWJ: For Page, is widely used, but as an isolated SAD. EIN: widely used as (EIN). EIN JIM: used for a different meaning. HEH SHEEN, HEH GHAF: used widely. So, the others are usual dictionary constructions. The same thing happens in English too. But it's unfortunate that we still don't have any abbreviations in use for units in Physics :(. BTW, the construction techniques are intelligent in their own limited way. --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: BBC Persian on Internet and the Persian Language
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote: On Thu, 29 Apr 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: http://www.bbc.co.uk/persian/interactivity/debate/story/2004/04/040428_mf_bt_weblanguage.shtml Can you give an example of haa-ye havvaz instead of kasra. I can't think how that situation could come up although I'm sure it's obvious. He means the way some people write informal Persian, like for example to write pesare-e khoobi-e, they write pesareh khoobieh, means PEH SIN REH HEH KHEH WAW BEH YEH HEH. -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Sat, 1 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: Hi, Roozbeh gave a nice sample, but I've also seen month calendars showing one-letter headings in a reverse direction (right-to-left). Compare with this: http://www.geocities.com/omidkrad/Calendar/PersianDatePicker.gif Should we follow the numbers reading order or the letters reading order? Omid Thanks Omid for mentioning that. I was going to reply to Roozbeh that I guess all I remember, and the *correct* way is to order from right to left. So, your shot is completely correct IMO. behdad --- Roozbeh Pournader Wrote: Nice examples of abbreviations/shorthands/whatever: ... * A month table from a sar-resid-naame (I don't know the English term) published in Iran in 1383/2004, showing the one-letter day headings (37 KiB): http://www.farsiweb.info/misc/calendar-abbr.png roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, C Bobroff wrote: Results of the Survey: Never: 3 votes Rarely: 2 votes Sometimes: 2 votes (Plus one more never vote from the person who vehemently objected to my putting the abbreviations on my website and caused me to take this poll!) I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided. Good you finally got it... ;) Yet another reason why the Persian fonts need to be especially well-hinted in the smaller sizes. Thank you for the input! -Connie --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
RE: Using Hijri Shamsi date in Outlook 2002
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote: Dear Behdad, Dear Omid, Thanks for your *clarification*. ...in your references, I couldn't find any reference for this bold claim. Click on System.Globalization.JalaaliCalendar in the article, it links to this page on MSDN: http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/?//longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/ ref/ns/System.Globalization/c/JalaaliCalendar/JalaaliCalendar.aspx It simply redirects me to: http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/portal_nav.htm Which apparently is not related. ...I see you have named the first section of your site FarsiWeb ...I definitely appreciate if you clarify your intention on using the same name in your site The website www.IranASP.NET is not MY site. I suggest you study the links well before you ask me for clarifications. Sorry, my fault. Truly, Omid K. Rad Cheers, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Days of the Week abbreviated
Hi Connie, Seems like I still should clarify some things for you :). First one is the concept of an abbreviation: I'm strongly with the idea that a single letter is not called an abbreviation. I doubt if anyone disagree on this. Ok, let's see what we have in English: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ... Sun, Mon, Tue, ... S, M, T, ... January, February, March, ... Jan, Feb, Mar, ... J, F, M, ... Let's call the first representation the long form, the second the short form, and the third the letter form. Now, again, I doubt if anyone disagree here that the entries in the short form are called abbreviations, neither the long form, nor the letter form. And where are they used: * long form, in long date representations. Using the usual sample: Tuesday, 21 September 1982. * short form, in a compact representation and in width-limited fields: Tue, 21 Sep 1982. * letter form, used ONLY in a two dimensional representation of a calendar. Like this: September 1982 S M T W T F S 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Infact, when space allows, a two letter variant looks even better: September 1982 Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 But you never see: T, 21 S 1982, do you? (mister Jones :P). So, the point is that, the letter form (or biletter form) is not an abbreviation, and is an straight *mechanical* derivation of the other forms, to fulfill the space requirements. Again, note that it's simply S, not S., ie. no abbreviation. Now, let's see what we have in Persian: * long form, is used exactly as in the English one. * short form, we don't have short forms in Persian. There is an strong reason for that: We don't have upper and lower case letters. Why can we have these abbreviations in English? Because Sat is completely different from sat. But that's not possible in Persian. In Persian the only way to make abbreviations is to pick the first letters of a phrase, like h.sh. for hejrie shamshi. * letter form, is again used quite like the English case, ie. in two dimensional printed calendars, but NOT anywhere else. So, next time, don't let Roozbeh fool you with sayin those guys use it in Sharif University :P. If you find anyone who claims letter form is used in Persian for anything other than what I described, ..., he's trying to confuse you for sure :P. Ok, time to go, --behdad behdad.org ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Announcement: BiCon 0.0.20040401 released
Hi, This is my great pleasure to announce on behalf of the Arabeyes project, the sudden release of BiCon Is this the Fake Release or the One from Yesterday 0.0.20040401. Download http://osdn.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/arabeyes/bicon-0.0.20040401.tar.gz What is BiCon - BiCon is the Bidirection Console layer, which allows you to read and write Arabic/Persian in the Linux console and other supported terminal emulators. If you feel like the functionality is familiar, you are right. BiCon is here to deprecate the old Akka, which itself used to deprecate ACon. BiCon is based on the old farsi, a.k.a fcon code base from the FarsiWeb project. Since being blessed BiCon, the project calmly lives in the Arabeyes project: http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=BiCon Installation You need the FriBidi library to compile this program. Probably you have it in your distribution. If not, get it from http://fribidi.sourceforge.net/ Installation is simple, the usual steps: ./configure make make install Usage - This program currently can be used under Linux console, or terminal emulators with basic Unicode rendering support, like gnome-terminal, xterm, or PuTTY. Simply run bicon to get a console supporting Arabic or Persian. The language used is chosen according to the LANG environment variable. You can also choose the language country by specifying the country on the country on the command line, e.g :: bicon sa # enables Arabic (Saudi Arabia) support bicon ir # for Persian(Iran) Of course, you have a man page bicon(1) to check. In the Linux console, you can switch between English and Arabic/Persian keyboard by pressing Alt+Shift on the right half of your keyboard. To test that your BiCon is lighting the cold dark console up, do cat testtext/hafez and watch for a nicely rendered sonnet of Hafez. Reporting Bugs -- Please report all bugs to http://bugs.arabeyes.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/query.cgi Feedback at [EMAIL PROTECTED] is also welcome. Cheers, Behdad Esfahbod Arabeyes Project http://www.arabeyes.org/ ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 10, Issue 8
On Mon, 8 Mar 2004, Jalal Maleki wrote: Finally a question that I am sure has been raised earlier: are there any character recognition programs for Persian around? The short answer is No. Not around. There may be proprietary solutions in Tehran markets. behdad Jalal ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Dictionaries on the web
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote: On Thu, 2004-03-04 at 04:17, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: as you have *bought* the software, you can do whatever you want with it, as it's your property. Only that single copy will become your property of course. And you cannot do whatever you want with it: you cannot kill someone using it, you cannot copy it indefinitely, ... Well, you are mixing irrelevant things here. You can do whatever you want with it. But if there's a law saying Thou Shall Not Kill that's a completely another story. Note Note Note Note Note: We need an Iranian lawyer :(. behdad So, which of these I'm allowed to do and which not? I don't know. I don't support my previous personal point anymore. It may be completely legal to do all of those. roozbeh ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: AR-EN Morphoanalytical Dictionary
On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Ali Samadi wrote: Hi Behdad, Hi, im just asking my self that when you are talking about doing write and wrong thing, As Roozbeh already said, I didn't talk about doing write or wrong. I left the decision to you. did you ever thought about asking me for a permission to put my forwarded mail in a Public mail-List? Yes, I definitely thought. But later I thought so what? He simply ignored me and bought Mossoud's rants and didn't replied me back about his decision. You were only enough nice that replied my mail. But in that reply you sent me Massoud's mail, saying without words I don't care. Here's you and him. And I only forwarded it to the list because he has insulted Iranian people in general, and a few people in particular that I know he knows in person: * Mr Reza Mahjurian, the ex-administrator of SchoolNet project. * Dr Yahya Tabesh, the head of Computing Department at Sharif University of Technology * Mr Ali Khanban, that I've seen they have jointly released one of those dictionaris (I may be wrong a bit, but not quite). The second thing, I have no idea who you are and what you are looking for and to You keep asking this. I've already said that I'm this student at that university. If you want to know about my income and who I sleep with, you are free to search internet for that too. Ok, I'm a proud Free Software developer. Perhaps the most influental Iranian Free Software developer ever (not counting FarsiTeX developers, as I'm talking about global influence, not local to Iran). Ok? And about what I want, no, I don't want money to shut up X-(. be honest , i think that is not my problem. And that's exactly my problem with you! I'm a Free Software developer, and you are putting us Free Software developers in problem by advertising your dictionary Free to download, while it is not really Free. I would be fine if you put a note like I don't know about the copyright status of the data in this dictionary, download at your own risk. Still you are distributing copyrighted data without permission. Any way, i think if it is your wish, try to find out the truth. To be honest, it is YOU that should find the truth, because you are the one distributing software. Right now, I decided to try my best to see what I can get out of this without spending a dollar and too much time. Contact the Colombia University, Mr. Safari, try to contact every body you want but, and maybe if you I would definitely do that. Mr Safari is a reasonable man. are really interested in truth contact Mr. Hashemi directly! I guess I said that I couldn't find his address at the first place. Please send me his address. i think you should be careful, to find out the truth is one thing but to denunciate people is something different. Seems like you still have the illusion that I'm looking for the truth and it's me that should know the truth. No, I know the truth. Same for almost everyone else in this list. It's YOU that should understand and take the truth, but you are hiding your head in the deep snow :(. Just imagine your reproaches against Mr. Hashemi are wrong! You never contacted him directly, just imagine that the mail i send it to you was not from mr. Hashemi but from myself? It cannot be the case, because the technical references he gave is out of your information. Are you going to apologise also in that Mail List for your doing? Do you really have a doubt??? Try to do what you think is the best That's why I'm following this thread that has absolutely no benefit for me. Please please please, just think a minute about what you are doing. behdad Ali ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: AR-EN Morphoanalytical Dictionary
Hi Behnam, My problem is that: There are people announcing an English-Persian dictionary Free to download, but, I, the Linux user that likes a dictionary on his machine, cannot use the same data. Why? Because the Mac distributer has simply closed his eyes on the copyright status of the data. Again, I said, I would not mind if Ali puts a proper note about the copyright status of the data below the download link in his site. But the main point, Behnam, is that, it's not a friendly game that you say Ok let him do it or not. You are being generous by spendings someone else's efforts! behdad On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Behnam wrote: In the middle of nowhere, suddenly a heated discussion (from the middle!) was dumped on list members! From what I understand, this is about copyright issue with regard of Arianpoor dictionary. Well, the printed version has been around for many years now and Arianpoor brothers should be the sons of the original author. It's been updated regularly and this is maybe carried on by the sons. The electronic version as I understand, is widely available on the internet for PC users. What Ali is trying to do is to provide to Macintosh users the same tools and utilities that are freely available for PC users. The issue of copyright should be discussed in another level and finger pointing to such a small community of Persian computing for such a large issue doesn't solve any problem and frankly it's not fair. Ali is not the source of copyright infringement (if there is any) and he provided the source of his database. All Ali wants to do is to provide some level of facilities to Mac users that PC users take them for granted. For grand social issues let's start with grand market. Iranian Macintosh User Group is too young, too small and too fragile - and by its singularity- too visible and shouldn't be targeted for such issues. Behnam ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Persian Digital Library is back online
Hi, This is to inform you that thanks to Behnam Esfahbod, The Persian Digital Library Project is back online again at the same address: http://digilib.bamdad.org/ It has been down for a few weeks due to a hardware failure. Behdad Esfahbod THE Persian Digital Library ;) ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
Re: Pango and FarsiTeX
Dear Mostafa, Pango is the rendering engine of Gtk and GNOME desktop. FarsiTeX is going to be released under Linux in a few weeks. But no really good news on editor side. Perhaps using wine or winelib to run Windows editor. behdad On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Mostafa Modirrousta wrote: Hi folks! Would anyone please elaborate on what Pango (http://www.pango.org/index.shtml) is? I just saw a picture of how it treats Farsi and would that somehow let's more easily use Farsi under Linux than Chapdiz (sorry, forgot the exact name of that live-cd knoppix apted for Farsi)? I would also like to know the plans for near future in FarsiTeX project? For instance, any plan to make it working under Linux and ... Regards, Mostafa ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing ___ PersianComputing mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
