Re: PicoLisp License
Alexander Burger wrote: The normal use, however, writing applications in Lisp, is surely OK. Then you can distribute the PicoLisp interpreter as you like, in binary or source form (I'm not sure, but probly it is even sufficient to provide the customer with a link where he can download the sources himself). If you write, however, a special function in C, and link it to the interpreter, you'd have to supply the source to that function (but not the rest of your application). This is exactly how we used it in a commercial application. The download link is an exception allowed for non-commercial activity. See http://gpl-violations.org/faq/vendor-faq.html It says you have to offer (in writing) shipping the source code. // Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Cygwin 1.7.5: Problem with dlopen and relative path
Some things you don't bring from Windows. Then you bring Unix to Windows instead. There is a market for it, or Cygwin nor Services For Unix would not exist. (Services For Unix being Microsofts strange name for their Cygwin-like offering.) On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 04:32:07PM +0200, Henrik Sarvell wrote: Please explain to me, why are you guys spending time trying to fix Cygwin? I really want to know, am I missing something fundamental here? Cygwin is the reason I went all out Linux some 5 years ago when I tried to develop an SMS gateway with Linux as the target, on Win in Cygwin, too many problems, Cygwin != Linux and it seems it will never be. If I really need some of the Adobe or MS office stuff these days I just launch a VirtualBox and work away, nothing to it. That or just buy a Mac. /Henrik 2010/4/29 Mansur Mamkin mmam...@mail.ru Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:04:47 +0200 Corinna Vinschen corinna-cyg...@cygwin.com : On Apr 29 12:39, Mansur Mamkin wrote: Hello, As I see in source of dlfcn.cc, dlopen() should override LoadLibrary's automatic adding of a .dll suffix, but it's behaving strangely I have such files: /home/me/project/myexe.exe /home/me/project/lib1.dll /home/me/project/subdir/lib2.dll /home/me/project/subdir/lib3 (without .dll) My current directory is /home/me/project/ I try to use dlopen() in myexe.exe with relative path: 1) dlopen(subdir/lib2) - NOT FOUND (If this OK, then why failed dlopen(subdir/lib3)?) This one is correct. 2) dlopen(subdir/lib3) - NOT FOUND (why?) I couldn't reproduce this one, but... 3) dlopen(subdir/lib2.dll) - SUCCESS (works fine) 4) dlopen(lib1) - SUCCESS (why it didn't override LoadLibrary's adding .dll ?) ...this one is a bug. I fixed that in CVS. Thanks, Corinna -- Corinna Vinschen Please, send mails regarding Cygwin to Cygwin Project Co-Leader cygwin AT cygwin DOT com Red Hat -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picol...@software-lab.de?subject=unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picol...@software-lab.de?subject=unsubscribe
Re: PL vs. BSD License
On Mon, Aug 02, 2010 at 08:29:52AM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: Hi all, as this discussion popped up recently and in the past, and will surely pop up in the future: What do you think if PicoLisp were released under the BSD license instead of GPL? I would love it. I could imagine embedding PicoLisp in some applications. Ideologically, I prefer the GPL. It guarantees that freedom propagates. But it does this by cutting down on freedom, so it is schizophrenic. I used to compare the situation with freedom in a society: A society should not give an individual member so much freedom that he can make himself a dictator and thus destroy freedom. But this comparison is wrong. Using free software in a non-free project doesn't decrease its freedom; it just doesn't increase it the way the GPL tries to enforce. So is this just much ado about nothing? Even the FSF argues for less restrictive licenses than the GPL in some situations. For example the GLIBC has a less restrictive license, and they have the LGPL for purposes like this. They argue, that when adoption otherwise is unlikely, you should use the LGPL. This is the case, when there is a large body of proprietary code out there, such as when the GLIBC was created. If it had not allowed anything but GPL programs linked to it, nobody would have used. So it could be argued that you are helping distributing state-of-the-art embeddeble open source lisp by going to a less restrictive license. Of course, the FSF would be less happy if you went with MIT/X11/BSD than with the LGPL, but it is up to you. And the X11 license or 2-clause BSD is the most commercial friendly. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picol...@software-lab.de?subject=unsubscribe
Re: picolisp in java
Totally awesome! I have for a long time wanted Picolisp on other platforms. I think the best thing about Picolisp is the language itself, not its current libraries. Thank you! // Jakob On 10/04/2010 09:40 AM, Tomas Hlavaty wrote: Hi Alex, I have published my implementation of picolisp in java, in case you want to compare with your implementation. -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picol...@software-lab.de?subject=unsubscribe
Re: picolisp in java
On 10/06/2010 10:04 PM, Tomas Hlavaty wrote: Hi Alex, Perhaps 'fork' can be simulated by copying all runtime variables to a thread? not sure whether that's enough. The semantics is completely different, what about open files and so on? Is it necessary to go that far in terms of compatibility? Cheers, Tomas Fork is not necessary and goes against the thinking in the Java machine. Java is all about threads. -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picol...@software-lab.de?subject=unsubscribe
Re: Announce: ErsatzLisp (Java PicoLisp)
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 07:07:01PM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote:
Hi all,
the Java version of PicoLisp, which is part of the testing release since
a few weeks, is now in a state where I dare to say that the language is
usable (just the plain language).
Very cool!
In the near future I will continue, trying to supply as many missing
parts as possible. The next will probably be the *Run/task mechanisms
(using java.nio.channels.Selector), remaining I/O functions, and
networking. What seems definitely impossible in plain Java is raw
console input ('key', line editing). About other parts like 'fork' and
database support I'm not sure yet.
I don't think you need to include fork. Database support should be
possible, I guess, but I am not sure about locking.
// Jakob
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Re: Announce: ErsatzLisp (Java PicoLisp)
On 11/05/2010 10:56 AM, Alexander Burger wrote: Too bad. Is there no up-to-date JRE available for the Mac? Should be: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2315116tstart=1 http://www.piranhamethod.com/2010/04/installing-jre-1-6-on-your-mac-os-x-leopard-10-5-8-or-later/ // Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picol...@software-lab.de?subject=unsubscribe
Re: Done! -- Was: Announce: ErsatzLisp (Java PicoLisp)
On 11/12/2010 08:04 PM, Alexander Burger wrote: [...] Done! I do now consider Ersatz PicoLisp complete :) Totally cool! I consider the main benefit that we have a PicoLisp in Java, which we need to be hype compliant. :) // Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picol...@software-lab.de?subject=unsubscribe
Re: Announce: ErsatzLisp (Java PicoLisp)
On 11/17/2010 06:13 PM, Alexander Burger wrote:
But more important is that this would require quite a mess of code,
analog to what is there for getting the values of public fields. If you
look at lines 99 through 142 of ersatz/fun.src (actual version), you
see a lot of tedious type ('instanceof') checks. And they don't even
cover all possible cases! The same would be required for the opposite
direction. Or does anybody know a better way?
Is this related to introspection?
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/206/java-introspection-and-reflection
// Jakob
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Re: java proxy
On Fri, Dec 03, 2010 at 09:00:04AM +0100, Alexander Burger wrote: Hi Tomas, Why does your code (java Label 'addMouseListener (interface java.awt.event.MouseListener 'mouseClicked '((Ev) (setq Dir (if (= 1 Dir) 12 1))) 'mouseEntered nil 'mouseExited nil 'mousePressed nil 'mouseReleased nil ) ) have all those nil cases? Is that necessary? I would prefer if it were not necessary. But an interface like MouseListener requires the implementation of all methods. I think I got a runtime error if I didn't supply all methods. And I didn't investigate how to implement MouseAdapters which are classes and cannot be handled by 'interface'. Do you have an idea? On the other hand I don't worry too much if I simply supply empty methods (this could be encapsulated in a function). So cool that it works! I just demoed examples from Rosettacode to a friend and was delighted that the Swing example just worked... // Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picol...@software-lab.de?subject=unsubscribe
Re: PicoLisp and Arrays
On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 08:31:43AM +0100, Alexander Burger wrote: So, again, thanks to you all for the support! I don't have to defend that design decision in the future again! :) With new users, this will come up over and over again. But now there is sort of a FAQ to point to. // Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Darwin Port for 64-bit PicoLisp
On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 05:17:10PM +0100, Jakob Eriksson wrote: It's not that bad, but it could be better documented. Here is what I could find: http://orangejuiceliberationfront.com/intel-assembler-on-mac-os-x/ And this: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/DeveloperTools/Conceptual/MachOTopics/1-Articles/dynamic_code.html https://www.hasustorm.com/books/English/OReilly.Mac.OS.X.Panther.For.Unix.Geeks.eBook-LiB.chm/0596006071_mpantherunix-chp-9-sect-3.html // Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: autogenerated keys for pilog
On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 09:57:06AM +0800, Edwin Eyan Moragas wrote: Hi List, what's the best way to go about autogenerated keys for Pilog? i've been digging around a bit and can't find anything related. hints and pointers would be most appreciated. thank you. Hi! I have copied your (very good) question to: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5496015/autogenerated-keys-in-pilog As I want to promote the Picolisp language on that site, but I have a hard time thinking up good questions and answers on my own. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PowerPC Port for 64-bit PicoLisp
Wow! This is amazing! Great work. I have asked before, but forgot the answer. Is what we like to call 64-bit picolisp also portable to 32-bit CPUs? Or would it take a kludge of some sort? best regards, Jakob On 4/27/11 1:02 PM, Alexander Burger wrote: Hi all, 64-bit PicoLisp now also runs on PowerPC/Linux :) So this is the second CPU supported (in addition to x86-64). Thanks to Nikolai Zobnin! I could use his hardware to do the port. Seems to work well: It assembles itself, and the unit tests in lib/test.l and misc/bigtest pass. Probably some speed optimizations could be done. The generated code seems not very efficient, and there might be improvements like instruction reordering or direct cache management. I don't know enough about that, so I'll leave it the way it is for now. Available in the current testing release (version 3.0.6.6). Cheers, - Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
PicoLisp 68000
Alexander, do you have the sources for 68000 PicoLisp, and if you do, is it anything like current PicoLisp? The reason why I am asking is that I am somewhat involved in an Amiga clone (Natami) which has its own CPU implementation, and I was going to use miniPicoLisp on it, but then remembered that you used PicoLisp on Macs, maybe an optimal assembler version? best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Porting minipicolisp
I ported miniPicolisp to Amiga with GCC. I had to fix one include and change to a cross compiler in the makefile. However, -falign-functions did not exist in that version of GCC. And sure enough, while it built, it would not run, dying on the assertion giveup(Unaligned Function);. Any ideas? Why does alignment matter? Also - I find the general idea of using picolisp as an embedded control language inside other applications interesting, not just this special platform. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Porting minipicolisp
On 6/9/11 10:50 AM, dexen deVries wrote: Any ideas? Why does alignment matter? Not sure if it'll help at all, but there has been a similar discussion in the past: http://www.mail-archive.com/picolisp@software-lab.de/msg01909.html Thank you! Now that I looked at that discussion, I seem to recall AROS (aros.org) had the same problem for different reasons. And they solved it be some mangling of the assembler output. Interesting, and thank you! best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: 64-bit problem on Mac
I thougt PicoLisp used its' own assembler? On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:24:05AM +0200, Jon Kleiser wrote: Hi, I wanted to look at the old problem of building 64-bit PicoLisp on Mac OS X. Assemblers are far from what I usually play with, but at least I'd like to spend a few hours today on this problem. From what I've found on the net, I got the impression that the standard (?) assembler on OSX is nasm, and that the nasm versions found on Macs are often quite old (just do nasm -v, and you'll see). My idea then was that it might help to install an up-to-date version. Then I wanted to check which version I had on my Ubuntu, where I build 64-bit PicoLisp without problem, but on my Ubuntu I found no nasm; here as (2.20.1) seems to be the standard assembler. On Mac (OSX 10.6.7) even as is not very new, I found 1.38. Maybe I should try to upgrade as instead of nasm ... Any comments? /Jon -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: pilog question
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6571200/pilog-assertion On Mon, Jul 04, 2011 at 12:26:46AM -0700, Doug Snead wrote: Consider these five pilog assertions. (be do ((Question @P) @S @S) (holds @P @S)) (be holds (@A @S) (restoreSitArg @A @S @F) (2 cons (- @F))) (be On (3 s0)) (be On (5 s0)) (be restoreSitArg ((On @N) @S (On @N @S))) I define some tests. (de t_1 () # ok (? holds On restoreSitArg (holds (On @N) s0)) ) (de t_2 () # ? (? do holds On restoreSitArg (do (Question (On @N)) s0 s0)) ) Run the first one. (t_1) 1 (holds (On @N) s0) 1 (restoreSitArg (On @N) s0 (On @N s0)) 1 (On 3 s0) @N=3 2 (On 5 s0) @N=5 - NIL Ok, in that first test, I asked for solutions to (holds (On @N) s0)), tracing on. Those are solutions I would expect, and they are correct. Second test. (t_2) 1 (do (Question (On @N)) s0 s0) 1 (holds (On @N) s0) 1 (restoreSitArg (On @N) s0 (On @N s0)) 1 (On 3 s0) @N=NIL 2 (On 5 s0) @N=NIL - NIL Now here, (holds (On @N) s0) is also attempted to be proved - because it is a sub-goal of (do (Question (On @N)) s0 s0). My question is, why the difference when (holds (On @N) s0) is proved? In one case solutions are found, in the other case it seems to miss the same solutions to the same goal. Cheers, Doug -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: android picolisp using ndk/jni
On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 03:33:03PM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: Yeah, I always felt that Ersatz (or Java in general) is not the right thing. It's perfect for bootstrapping. That it is. // Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: The PicoLisp Ticker
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 09:58:59AM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: Hi all, let me share my funny experiences about the PicoLisp Ticker, and how it is handled by Mr. Google: http://picolisp.com/5000/-2-1i.html Put a link back to picolisp.com on each ticker page. There are pretty good keywords I think in the bot trap. :-) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: The PicoLisp Ticker
On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 10:45:28AM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: Hi Dexen, may I suggest adding rel=nofollow to the `Next page' link (the a tag)? I see! Didn't know about that tag. Any opinions? Should we relieve the busy bot? Or should we wait to see what happens? Will Google ban the whole picolisp.com site? I think they will, but it's all heuristics. I would guess they will ban it if there are many links on the pages. //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: httpGate and libssl problems
On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 11:22:29PM +0700, Henrik Sarvell wrote: Trying to compile with 32bit libc libraries installed gives me the following: ... gcc -m32 -o ../bin/ssl ssl.o -lssl -lcrypto snip I have installed every possible libssl and libssl-dev package but still no luck, what am I doing wrong? You need the 32 bit SSL libraries. Unfortunately, they are not part of the ia32libs package in Ubuntu/Debian. There are various solutions, you could copy the library from a 32 bit machine or build it in 32 mode locally. Here is one page: http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/531 Newer Debian should have some kind of built in magic for configuring this: http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/MultiArch best luck! //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Building the full 64-bit version
On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 08:25:05PM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: Ah, one important point: Can we be sure that OpenBSD uses the ELF linker format? If not (e.g. the old a.out format), we might have problems similar to those on Mac OS. Yes: http://www.phiral.net/openbsdasm.htm I don't understand what you are doing, but maybe there is something of interest in general on that page too, since it's about asm on OpenBSD x86. //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Building picolisp on Oneiric ?
On Tue, Sep 06, 2011 at 05:58:20PM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: Hmm, looking at that, it occurs to me that the order of arguments to 'gcc' might be relevant: If it first processes -ldl, and _then_ x86-64.linux.base.o, it might be too late to detect that certain functions from the library are needed. But if so, why did it work under Debian? It seems different versions of GCC, or installations of it, behave differently. I have been bitten by this problem many times. There is one correct order, but the incorrect order works on many GCC versions. //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: error message line numbers
On Wed, Sep 07, 2011 at 07:13:08AM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: Yes. Unfortunately we couldn't solve the problem with fcntl(), even under cygwin (don't know if the situation would be better today). But I'm afraid that there will be many other problems. Especially select(), fork() and pipe() issues come to mind. In idea is to just ignore those. Picolisp still has some things over miniPicolisp even without those. By the way Windows should support very good file locking, if I recall correctly, but it's a different kind of API. So Picolisp _could_ probably be completely ported to Windows, except fork(), but it would be a more complex port than any of the POSIX-ish ones, including Cygwin. I don't count Cygwin as Windows at all... :) //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: error message line numbers
On Thu, 8 Sep 2011 16:42:22 +0700, Henrik Sarvell hsarv...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sorry to have to say this but these people are only real programmers if they don't target the MS stack with .NET etc, the whole WAMP, XAMPP posse are just hobbyists and not a iota of energy should be spent to make their lives easier. So you are against hobbyists? //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Is Transactional Memory Relevant to PicoLisp?
As seen here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_transactional_memory I noticed that Common Lisp and other Lisps have support for transactional memory. I read this and became curious: http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2011/08/ibms-new-transactional-memory-make-or-break-time-for-multithreaded-revolution.ars best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Is Transactional Memory Relevant to PicoLisp?
On Fri, Sep 09, 2011 at 03:57:49PM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: On Fri, Sep 09, 2011 at 03:04:21PM +0200, Jakob Eriksson wrote: ATM I cannot see how this could be useful. PicoLisp has no threads, and If you defined threads less strict, such that processes could be threads, could it make sense then? Only if some shared/mapped memory is used, as far as I understand. What advantages would you see, and for which purpose? Don't know, these things are over my head, I was hoping someone here would know more than me and say, yes, this is good because... :-) Cheers, - Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Namespace support
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 02:51:32PM +0700, Henrik Sarvell wrote: Having to write the full name all the time could easily become comical, as in my above Clojure example. This is also one of the reasons I have leaned towards +1 Imagine all the rants which could be made about code full of both parens AND ultralong function names. :-) //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries
On January 13, 2012 at 12:45 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: As Henrik also wrote, nobody wants to reinvent the wheel. Very true. The intention of PicoLisp is to _avoid_ writing extensive libraries, and rather use existing libs implemented in other languages. For that, accessing external programs and libs is made especially easy and transparent in PicoLisp. Then a good chunk of examples using foreign libraries would help a lot. Seeing is believing. A little picolisp editor using gnome libs and gtk, an SDL game, a web client using CURL libraries and so on. best regards, Jakob --=_Part_49_1132727072.1326458988197 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd;html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head meta content=text/html; charset=UTF-8 http-equiv=Content-Type/ title/title /head body p style=margin: 0px;/p p style=margin: 0px;/p div style=margin: 5px 0px 5px 0px; On January 13, 2012 at 12:45 PM Alexander Burger lt;a...@software-lab.degt; wrote:br/ br/ gt;br/ gt; As Henrik also wrote, nobody wants to reinvent the wheel. Very true. Thebr/ gt; intention of PicoLisp is to _avoid_ writing extensive libraries, andbr/ gt; rather use existing libs implemented in other languages. For that,br/ gt; accessing external programs and libs is made especially easy andbr/ gt; transparent in PicoLisp. /div p style=margin: 0px;#160;/p p style=margin: 0px;#160;Then a good chunk of examples using foreign libraries would help a lot./p p style=margin: 0px;Seeing is believing. A little picolisp editor using gnome libs and gtk,/p p style=margin: 0px;an SDL game, a web client using CURL libraries and so on./p p style=margin: 0px;#160;/p p style=margin: 0px;best regards,/p p style=margin: 0px;Jakob/p p style=margin: 0px;#160;/p /body /html --=_Part_49_1132727072.1326458988197-- -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
repost
On January 13, 2012 at 5:49 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: As I see it, the problem of acceptance lies on a deeper level: - Non-Lisp programmers don't like PicoLisp, _because_ it is Lisp. Too many parentheses, and similar nonsense. Too different for them. - Lisp programmers, on the other hand, don't like it either, because it questions everything they were taught (and what they believe) during the last 50 years: Compilers, macros, lexical bindings. Too different for them. I agree with those two sentiments - those are the deeper reasons. But there is room in the cracks between these two, for instance: - some kind of rapid web development thing very easy to set up, but still easy to extend. It should be so simple non-programmers should be able to get started and, more importantly, could start customizing. Those new users would not even know Lisp was hard, and would like the bumblebee, fly anyway. In fact, Bumblebee is a great name for a web framework. :-) Ideally, it would be possible to install as a CGI on those kinds of cheap web hotels which only support PHP and CGI and come with a wizard for setting it up and so on. Since there is no difference between code and data, the developer could work within the browser and would not even need further FTP access. The logo could be a cute bumblebee ( http://bit.ly/zKzZx6 ) with parens for wings. This is just one idea, there are more if you go #picolisp. :-) // Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: PicoLisp is DEAD (Was: PicoLisp and its (lack of) libraries)
On January 23, 2012 at 2:02 PM Jon Kleiser jon.klei...@usit.uio.no wrote: I like having the possibility to make use of Java solutions (e.g. the Swing GUI) from Ersatz PicoLisp, but please don't tell anyone that it allows you to integrate with any legacy system before we have done any such integration at all! Feel free to give us an example. ;-) I have not. I meant, that this is a possible direction to get more jobs. I have until now ignored the state of the art with regards to the Java flavor of PicoLisp, but when reading about your job peril, I take more interest in it, since I have found that the Java word opens doors. In this case it actually is a blessing that that Java is such an ambiguous word - is it Java? Yes, it runs on the Java runtime. Check. Do we really want to sell PicoLisp that way? Why not? Really, marketing is about getting attention. Attention span is short. I think they will be glad to discover that PicoLisp is so much more than just a Java appendage like so many other languages. What a happy surprise if Groovy, Clojure, Ceylon, Coldfusion, Joy, and Scala all had standalone runtimes independent of any JVM! But PicoLisp does! How quickly do you think you could get an Ersatz PicoLisp based Android app out? And how would that dev. time compare to what it would take to write a similar app in plain old Java? Again - I did not mean to misrepresent anything. That would take me some time, for sure. But I would imagine if A. Burger made one app like that, the second would be way faster. Possibly it would not even entail a recompile... :-) If Ersatz PicoLisp should be fit for writing the stuff that you're thinking of, then I think you would need some way to extend existing Java classes, and override existing methods. I don't think this is possible today. Please inform me if I'm wrong. I don't know these things... but it could gain those capabilities, nothing in PicoLisp inherently stops it. Or add PicoLisp to the list of languages supported by ASE: http://code.google.com/p/android-scripting/ I am trying to brainstorm ways for people (Burger) to make a living with PicoLisp as a tool. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Proposal - Stack Overflow
Dear PicoLisp interested subscribers! Sometimes people ask questions here on the mailing list about PicoLisp programming. Given recent discussions, I have a suggestion: Let us all get StackOverflow accounts. (I have one.) Then, we post to this list look at this StackOverflow link - I have posted a question there. Will you please go there and we will continue solving this problem there? StackOverflow is THE site - is has gathered virtually ALL programming related Q/A discussion and sucked other forums dry. If there were a few questions and answers about PicoLisp there, it would get attention. It would also help newcomers, because SO is where newcomers go. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Core Language
On January 26, 2012 at 1:34 AM Alex Gilding alex.gild...@talktalk.net wrote: 2) Related to that, the download page describes miniPicoLisp as pure PicoLisp, supporting the full language. Is there any kind of established definition of what specifically constitutes the PicoLisp Good initiative! I suggest we create such a list, for several reasons. We could prototype on some wiki the definitions. My suggestions: - Virtual machine specification * Coding of cells and S-expressions in memory * how eval loop must run (Right now there are three standards, the miniPicoLisp, the 32-bit PicoLisp, and the x86_64 PicoLisp.) - Core language specification * list and data manipulating * very basic I/O, like stdin and stdout - Full PicoLisp Runtime Specification: - all of the above - PicoLisp database - networking - whatever is in the current PicoLisp download Rationale for virtual machine specification: interoperability with (potential) 3rd party implementations, and ease implementation in PicoLisp in hardware. (FPGA: VHDL/Verilog/MyHDL.) Rationale for Core Language Specification: make it easier to embed the language in embedded systems or in other programs, like eLua and Lua, and also help 3rd party implementors. Rationale for Full PicoLisp Runtime Specification: specify a core set of services, like how the JRE has also a has set of JDBC connectors, network helpers, like how C the language also has it's standard C library and so on. This separation will also help new students to better understand how the language works and everything fits together. On top of all of that, I am open to creating a 3rd party repository of PicoLisp libraries like CPAN for Perl or PEAR for PHP. These could live on a separate server, I could host it. Pilog I don't know where to put in the lists above... can it be had separate from the DB? best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: ersatz - can not access a member
On January 28, 2012 at 1:18 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hello Joe, I'm trying to write a simple java web server using the simpleframework. I'm close, but I process anything in the method handler: And this excellent discussion is why we could say that we have official PicoLisp Q/A on Stackoverflow.com This was a perfect fit. I would even ask you Joe to ask the same thing on Stackoverflow.com again. ;-) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: pl-web, almost a web development framework
On January 28, 2012 at 10:25 AM Henrik Sarvell hsarv...@gmail.com wrote: OK so I've got a first draft of something simple. As opposed to what has been requested before this is NOT a web development framework in the sense of RoR or even Ring. But a very nice start! :-D //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Web app example using ersatz
On January 30, 2012 at 3:50 PM Joe Bogner joebog...@gmail.com wrote: I spent the weekend working on an example web app using ersatz. I've written it up here: http://picolisp.com/5000/!wiki?ErsatzWebApp Please let me know what you think Awesome. I will bless it with the first bug report! :-) When you create a TODO by pressing Enter, it does not work. (No new record.) When you click with the mouse, it works. (Using Safari.) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Web app example using ersatz
On January 31, 2012 at 11:19 AM Joe Bogner joebog...@gmail.com wrote: worried about the security of it. Maybe if I were to pick a single mimetype, I'd go with zip or tar.gz as that's the main reason someone would upload if it's too much to paste in as a code example or to include a complete working example with some supporting files (images, example DB, etc). Idea: allow anything, but zip it on the server, and let people download the zip. Since WE created the zip, it's not inherently dangerous, unless they unpack it. When they unpack, the original filename will be intact, as and added bonus. Attachments also take less space on the server filesystem if you care about that sort of thing. :-) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Suggestion for message to passers by
Hello! Suggestion: put prominently on the picolisp.com site two things: How to sign up to this mailing list, and if you ask a question on Stackoverflow and put the picolisp tag on the question, we have people monitoring there for new picolisp questions best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Google Summer of Code (GSoC) 2012
On February 28, 2012 at 11:26 AM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Wouldn't be the Android porting project a good candidate for the Summer of Code? Indeed it would. I would also like to see a port to VHDL or Verilog. A proof of concept PicoLisp web server running its own bytecode machine on an FPGA. I think I could dig up those kinds of students, I know an FPGA professor. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Google Summer of Code (GSoC) 2012
On March 3, 2012 at 10:27 PM José Romero jose.cyb...@gmail.com wrote: Things left to design are how to keep track of sessions. Picolisp's persistent process system is simple and very efficient, but there should be a filesystem fallback for CGI. It would be also very desirable to make the existing GUI framework work with it. I'd really appreciate you input :) Just concatenate to a binary file, with a small and efficient format. When over a certain size, switch to a new file, copy those sessions still alive from the old file first, then delete the old file. This should be fairly quick. We also discussed on IRC, I think a compressing heap saver would be very cool, but perhaps something for the next SoC. :-) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Google Summer of Code (GSoC) 2012
On March 3, 2012 at 11:56 PM Joe Bogner joebog...@gmail.com wrote: I guess for someone with no knowledge of picoLisp, as it relates to your proposal, why is picoLisp a good choice for web development? What would the successful completion of the proposal enable? I have some perspective but would be interested in hearing It is a good choice, because it with such a small runtime it should scale really well, betihster than Java, Python or PHP. This should interest Google anyway. Also it is sad that newbies or those with lack of funds get presented with mostly PHP as a choice for host web sites. With PicoLisp as very efficient CGI, there is another. Slightly off topic: Hm, another crazy idea... what if the CGI had a data fork in which contained the database and sessions? Then a whole site could be deployed with a single file. (I don't know if this is even technically possible though.) //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Google Summer of Code (GSoC) 2012
On March 4, 2012 at 1:07 AM José Romero jose.cyb...@gmail.com wrote: One thing I love about picolisp is it's interactivity, I can interact with a running app using the repl (and the wonderful 'edit function). The equivalence of code and data and dynamic binding help a lot to alter the system as it's running to try out new things with a very quick turnaround time. And still, despite the great flexibility it also This. And the web framework could even have a repl or edit function where you could edit a running site live. It could have Commit and Revert buttons and a version history even. It could be the worlds first self-contained web framework made for working in teams, if it had different admin accounts. //Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Google Summer of Code (GSoC) 2012
On March 5, 2012 at 8:49 AM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: This sounds useful. I don't know about the types of restrictions which might be imposed by such servers. It is often that you may run only a PHP script or a CGI. And the CGI can be either compiled static binary or Perl or Bash. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: PicoLisp assembler in JavaScript?
On March 6, 2012 at 4:10 PM Jon Kleiser jon.klei...@usit.uio.no wrote: JavaScript, so one could rip off all (or most of) the assembly code that 64-bits PL is written in? It seems like it could be a fun thing to do, at least for those who have some time available ... ;-) I think it's a wonderful idea. Off topic: http://picolisp.com/5000/-2-22.html http://picolisp.com/5000/-2-22.html * how do I edit pages on that wiki? * I never understand under which topic an article belongs, which brings me to the URL, it would be nice if the URL reflected the topic of the Wiki page. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: PicoLisp assembler in JavaScript?
On March 7, 2012 at 8:30 AM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hi Jon, How many percent (very roughly) of the PicoLisp functions are depending on this 'native' function? If it's less than say 10%, one could probably find an alternative solution for these natives, or just ignore them. I'm only guessing. The interpreter itself doesn't depend on 'native' at all. The base system runs fine without it. Only add-ons like floating point math, or the OpenGL library, do need it. I think PicoLisp is plenty fun and useful also without these addons. Floating point could be reimplemented in other ways if really needed. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Speedtest PicoLisp vs Emacs Lisp
On April 23, 2012 at 10:08 AM Thorsten quintf...@googlemail.com wrote: I knew something was wrong when I pasted the link, since there was a long discussiion about PicoLisp links here not so long ago - but it was already quite late when I posted so I did not investigate. Thanks for the tip. Which is not as it should be. Links should be linkable. Why not do the approach that ports etc are added to the right part of the URL and discarded if visited by someone out-of-session? Was that already proposed? best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Speedtest PicoLisp vs Emacs Lisp
On April 23, 2012 at 11:41 AM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hi Jakob, Which is not as it should be. Links should be linkable. Not necessarily. A login session is by definition an ephemeral situation, so its momentary state should better not be linkable. I regard this as a security feature ;-) Ok I over-reached. In this particular situation though, with linking to Wiki pages, it is not good that he has to log out first to link to a page. It's not a great user interface. Also, what about sending session things as cookies or POSTs instead of in the URL? I have a feeling we have been over this before though... :-) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Fwd: finding the schwerpunkt
Our Schwerpunkt could be that elusive web IDE which can be deployed on free CGI hosting and scale upwards. :) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: In Detail: Native C Calls
On May 9, 2012 at 3:33 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Does anybody know of a programming language with an equally powerful -- yet as simple -- C function interface? Except C/C++ of course ;-) I think D has it. (D is pretty nice, it looks like C++ except the evil.) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Ubuntu mess
On May 29, 2012 at 2:04 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: I've posted a bug report, asking for the upgrade, in the middle of March: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/picolisp/+bug/956731 The report mentions that the bug is filed against Ubuntu in general and not 12.04 in particular. Is this fixed? (I am not familiar with Launchpad and can not tell.) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Ubuntu mess
I am not sure, but I suspect that the easiest way to get this fixed in Ubuntu 12.04 is create a point release for 3.0.8.10, for instance replacing 3.0.8.10-1 with 3.0.8.10-2 or something, with a minimal fix which only fixes the dynamic loader issue. Now, I don't know the differences between 3.1.0.4 and 3.0.8.10 but in general maintainers are very conservative about changes, so as to not introduce unintended consequences. (But as I said in my previous email, the problem may not be even that, but rather that the bug was filed against the wrong package.) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Ubuntu mess
On May 29, 2012 at 4:34 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: So let's wait a little if the upgrade will happen now as the bug is finally confirmed. No, I am pretty sure that is not affecting it at all. I think you as the bug reporter need to do what the janitor code said: To change the source package that this bug is filed about visit https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/956731/+editstatus https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/956731/+editstatus and add the package name in the text box next to the word Package. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: PicoLisp Bible - Call for Papers
Great initiative! I will try to put something short together on how portable the very core of (mini)PicoLisp is. No promise though, but it would be fun. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: New PicoLisp-Wiki major mode for GNU Emacs
Awesome Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@googlemail.com skrev: Hi List, I just published a new GNU Emacs major mode for editing files with the PicoLisp-Wiki syntax. You can either clone the gitrepo or download the el file here: ,--- | https://github.com/tj64/picolisp-wiki-mode `--- For Emacs users, the mode should make it super-convenient to write and edit articles for the PicoLisp wiki. You can insert all markups with easy keybindings, mostly without moving point. E.g., when inserting a ordered list (C-c C-l o) , you will find point inside the braces of the first list item and you can start typing the text. From inside this item, inserting the next item with C-c C-l i will move point inside the braces of the properly inserted and indented next item. The wiki markup is made visible by fontification. You can even use the features of outline-mode/org-mode: navigate from headline to headline, and use visibility-cycling on the headlines. This is still version 0.9. See HISTORY.org in the github-repo for bugs and things to do to make it version 1.0. *Request for comments/help*: The most important feature to make this mode *really* useful does probably already exist, but needs to be figured out and described: remotely access the PicoLisp-Wiki from within Emacs, probably using *Tramp*, (add and) edit wiki files in picolisp-wiki-mode, then save them on the server - without ever touching the web-interface. I'm not quite sure if and how this would work with the PicoLisp-Wiki, since due to its dynamic nature (are there really 'files' involved?) it might be a 'special case'. -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe PԔ � j)mX��� ��zV�u�.n7�
Fast vendor response time (Was: Re: too many open files?)
Talk about fast vendor response time! On September 5, 2012 at 9:34 AM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Opps, I can reproduce it! And I found this is a bug in the 'dir' -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Token read
On November 9, 2012 at 6:13 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: [read changes] Any objections? On the contrary! Not that I am a daily PicoLisp user these days, but I remember stumbling over that once and being confused. The proposed behavior is better. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Conrad Barsky's Land of Lisp, in PicoLisp: wizards-game.lisp -
Plain awesome. So short!
Re: Ersatz PicoLisp stuff
I feel we are getting closer to where PicoLisp could be used in Java for real.
Re: Ersatz Picolisp misc interop libraries update
This is so awesome, getting access to all Java libraries etc from PicoLisp :) PԔ � j)mX��� ��zV�u�.n7�
Re: Segmentation fault (Was: Subscribe)
Yes, the FAQ should definitely elaborate on that, since people are used to that interpreted languages can not induce segfaults on their own. Also explain perhaps that the interpreter could check all C calls against a white list, but it would take a lot of time Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de skrev: Hi Oskar, bitte melde mich fuer die email liste an. Sure! It happened automatically already :) : (setq foo 1) - 1 : (foo) Segmentation fault (core dumped) I understand your worries, but this is actually a feature. In general, PicoLisp doesn't catch such errors, as this would induce relatively high runtime overhead, in contrast to their extremely rare occurrence in production programs. And, after all, Segmentation fault *is* an error message, generated by the hardware, isn't it? And you test your program at least once, don't you? Setting a symbol to a number (like '1' above) is perfectly legal. And calling a symbol with a numeric value means to call an internal function (i.e. a function pointer). However, at memory location '1' there is probably no function, but the interpreter cannot know this. To avoid potential dangers like the one above, where a variable is called as a function, PicoLisp recommends strongly to adhere to certain naming conventions: http://software-lab.de/doc/ref.html#conv You would use 'Foo' for locally bound symbols, and 'foo' for a global symbol (what a function typically is), and have no problem. Perhaps the FAQ http://software-lab.de/doc/faq.html#segfault should elaborate more on that? ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe PԔ � j)mX��� ��zV�u�.n7�
Re: Are PicoLisp's coroutine stacks legal?
Wow, I just have to comment this. Amiga + picolisp in the same post = awesome. /me crawls back under rock On May 20, 2013 at 11:13 PM Jorge Acereda Maciá jacer...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I can only say that under AmigaOS it would certainly be a no-no: -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
good morning
so good to you see activity this early in the weekend. :) -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Great canvas article and demo
On September 16, 2013 at 9:30 AM Tomas Hlavaty t...@logand.com wrote: 3) I guess most of the overhead of the http request is probably establishing the connection. My bett is that it doesn't really matter if you send 1kB or 5kB of data. For example, if I run this It might matter, the only way to make sure is to measure. For instance you can fit an answer inside an IP packet completely, it may make a difference. (There are also many other things to consider, for instance if there are CSS or Javascript resources which are blocking start of browser rendering, until those are loaded.) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: A few quick emu/pil timings
Bikeshedding! Debian. Henrik Sarvell hsarv...@gmail.com skrev: If VM can't be avoided isn't Gentoo more minimal than Arch? http://www.gentoo.org/ On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote: Mansur Mamkin mmam...@mail.ru writes: in case of Windows don't forget to look at coLinux and andLinux: Isn't archlinux quite popular now between 'minimalists'? ,--- | https://www.archlinux.org/ `--- -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe PԔ � j)mX��� ��zV�u�.n7�
Re: Programming can be futuristic
Well, if PicoLisp was ported to http://zerovm.org/wiki/The_Cloud_Hypervisor then we'd definitely be there. Thing is, I think it might be a good fit! On 2013-10-24 06:23, Henrik Sarvell wrote: This guy has obviously not discovered PicoLisp yet :-) http://www.ianbicking.org/blog/2013/10/why-isnt-programming-futuristic.html -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Would a logging framework make sense for PicoLisp
If it is derivative, you should ask. On April 11, 2014 7:07:25 PM CEST, Henrik Sarvell hsarv...@gmail.com wrote: I feel like I have changed the original now to such an extent that I don't have to ask anymore :-) It feels like a derivative work. However, attribution is kept in the source: https://bitbucket.org/hsarvell/ext/raw/b2516583e54a97c0e903dcb5b63b0b3cb8c1934a/log.l And here: https://bitbucket.org/hsarvell/ext Only difference in behaviour is that if you do for instance (setq *LogOn T) results will be unpredicable, it needs to be set to NIL or one of the four values, for instance (setq *LogOn 'debug). Enjoy! On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Henrik Sarvell hsarv...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Andreas, can I put this in my ext lib: https://bitbucket.org/hsarvell/ext ? I will of course keep the head with your email and info etc. On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.comwrote: andr...@itship.ch writes: Hi Andreas, I'm not sure if I understand you correctly. You can use (log) in different ways, e.g.: (log just a message) (log 'debug variable x is x) (log 'warn folder size is reaching 1GB) (log 'error a fatal error occured) If (on *LogOn), all messages get printed. If (setq *LogOn 'warn), only warn and error messages (the 2 at bottom) will be printed. If (setq *LogOn 'error), only the last message will be printed. ok, I see, so its the programmers responsability to put 'warn and 'error level statements in places that are only reached under some error condition and nowhere else. So far this system only handles messages which you explicitly send yourself with (log Type any ...). Error ouput from pil isn't getting handled, as I don't know how I could do that. Pil error messages can be redirected to a file with (err), but I don't see a way to get it redirected to a function... Does this answer your question? Yes, thanks! Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com writes: after testing a bit more I have one question: It seems the levels 'warning and 'error unconditionally print their messages when *LogOn is set to them, but from my understanding these levels would eventually be turned-on in production code and thus should only print something when something goes wrong in the program execution. Would it be possible to only log messages from catched error with level 'warning and try to log some system information when there is a real uncatched error with log-level 'error? So that level 'warning would become the default level for production code and nothing is printed as long as the program runs smoothly? -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: Regarding the implementations of PicoLisp
And this is an excellent example of PicoLisp going the extra mile. Instead of handling C as the lowest abstraction, going to the actual machine. I imagine other interpreted languages could be faster if designed with this attention to detail. On 12 maj 2014 08:24:13 CEST, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 08:06:57AM +0200, Alexander Burger wrote: The problem with this is that is horribly inefficient. The dynamic version myStruct bnd[length(x)]; simply decrements the stack pointer by length(x) * sizeof(myStruct) (which is a single machine instruction!), while the malloc() call involves the whole memory management machinery. BTW, this inability of C to properly support stack manipulations was the main reason to write the 64-bit version of PicoLisp in assembly. As I wrote this in http://software-lab.de/doc64/README The reasons to choose assembly language (instead of C) were, in decreasing order of importance: 1. Stack manipulations Alignment to cell boundaries: To be able to directly express the desired stack data structures (see doc64/structures, e.g. Apply frame), a better control over the stack (as compared to C) was required. Indefinite pushs and pops: A Lisp interpreter operates on list structures of unknown length all the time. The C version always required two passes, the first to determine the length of the list to allocate the necessary stack structures, and then the second to do the actual work. An assembly version can simply push as many items as are encountered, and clean up the stack with pop's and stack pointer arithmetics. ... Pushing and popping data of unknown length is at the heart of the PicoLisp interpreter. It is done all the time. Note that even with arrays of variable length, as in the discussed case: myStruct bnd[length(x)]; it is still not optimal, because the interpreter has to call length() on the list first, before actually processing it. The list needs to be traversed twice. In a language with proper stack control, you can simply call 'push' in the loop doing the processing. ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Regarding the implementations of PicoLisp
Heartbleed vs custom memory allocator is a false dichotomy. The problem with OpenSSL was a bad development model. A security library should have a development model focusing on security. Security is a process and taking responsibility for design decisions and committing to them, not letting things slip out of hand over the years. -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Regarding the implementations of PicoLisp
On May 14, 2014 at 4:03 PM andr...@itship.ch wrote: PicoLisp can and might be used to implement security applications. Of course. So better use standard proved OS mechanisms and have some more initial effort to get it running, I think. The standard proved OS mechanism are all different for all the libcs and platforms out there. Testing is advised. Why do you trust the true and tested libc on some unpatched Windows XP over your own, highly vetted and unit-tested custom code? You shouldn't. Veering off topic here ... but sorry, you can't look at OpenSSL, a very, very ill patient, and decide that one single symptom is the cause of its disease. OpenSSL had a bad fever. You decide that it was because OpenSSL made its own socks. You ignore that OpenSSL also smoked crack, ate only at McDonalds, never exercised, drank a lot, and never wore anything but a T-shirt in the winter. Oh, and OpenSSL made the socks not to stay warm, but because OpenSSL thinks that making his own socks makes him run faster. Or something... sorry for the rant, but the take-home from OpenSSL is more like, don't make your own memory manager without caring even a little bit about if its secure or not, only that its FASTER than some old buggy libc you once encountered 10 years ago. The heartbleed bug wouldn't have had such a devastating effect if they wouldn't have implemented their own memory management. The heartbleed bug wouldn't have existed in the first place if these developing protocols would have been in place: - test on other memory allocators. Just to ensure conformance. - create decent unit tests would (including inputting invalid data, black box testing) - remove the HUGE chunks of unused code (unused code obscures the real code and makes it harder to read) - their custom memory allocator would have cleared out memory on free (like the OpenBSD allocator does) - they would have had any focus security at all I have no problem with the strategy to for instance use a custom allocator with an unsecure default allocator, but defaulting to the system allocator on good platforms like OpenBSD. Disclaimer though, I have actually no particular axe to grind with the actual OpenSSL developers. I have more scorn for those USING OpenSSL in their products. The API is convoluted, the code is questionable. If possible, avoid. Thankfully the OpenBSD developers have stepped up to the challenge and forked openssl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LibreSSL (That won't fix the API I guess, but at least the security will improve.) Although, for all their bragging about security, they should have done that 10 years ago. But better late than never. Sorry for the bitterness. :) --jakob PS There is also the larger picture. Which is best, having unencrypted communications and knowing it, or having encrypted communications, but unaware of the gaping in holes in security? -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Regarding the implementations of PicoLisp
Yes, but it would help if the allocator cleared returned memory if I recall correctly. On May 14, 2014 6:40:59 PM CEST, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hi Jakob, Veering off topic here ... ... The heartbleed bug wouldn't have had such a devastating effect if they wouldn't have implemented their own memory management. ... - test on other memory allocators. Just to ensure conformance. ... I have no problem with the strategy to for instance use a custom allocator with an unsecure default allocator, but defaulting to the system allocator on good platforms like OpenBSD. Why I enjoyed your rant very much, I must mention that according to what I heard about the heartbleed bug, it is not the fault of the memory allocator. The bug happened because the _sizes_ of incoming and outgoing data were not handled correctly: 1. Incoming packet says it is 64k, but in fact is only one byte. 2. The single byte is written to the buffer (here the receiver _must_ know the size independently of what the packet tells). 3. The reply sends all 64k from the buffer, using the wrong value from the packet instead of its known count of written bytes. For this scenario, it would not help if the buffer were allocated by another memory manager, or even be static. ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: try picolisp
Maybe not with Emscripten. On August 28, 2014 7:41:12 PM CEST, Mike Pechkin mike.pech...@gmail.com wrote: hi, Is it hard to implement minimalist version of minipicolisp in browser ? Like http://tryclj.com/ ? Mike -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
Fantastic, this is truly great. I have been hoping for years
someone would pull this off.
Congratulations.
best regards,
Jakob
On September 19, 2014 at 1:39 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote:
Hello List,
we are proud to announce PilMCU, the Lisp Machine on a Chip! :)
We, that is George Orais (who persuaded me into the project) and me.
Georg built the actual machine in Verilog, and I did the changes and
extensions to PicoLisp.
PilMCU is an implementation of 64-bit PicoLisp directly in hardware. A
truly minimalistic system. PicoLisp is both the machine language and the
operating system:
* Memory management is trivial, just the Lisp heap and the stack
* The built-in database is extended to hold a file system
* One SSD per database file for mass storage
* Processes run as tasks and coroutines
* Events (timing and interrupts) via a 'wait' instruction
* Complex I/O protocols are delegated to peripheral chips
The final hardware can be very lightweight. Low transistor count and
power consumption. No overhead for an OS. It is conceivable for a later
stage to put many interconnected CPUs on a single chip.
At present, we have it running in the Verilog simulator, and in an
emulator (adaption of the PicoLisp 'emu' architecture).
How shall we proceed? We need investors (or crowdfunding) to polish,
manufacture and distribute the real thing.
We imagine something in the line of an Embedded Lisp Machine or a
Lisp Machine Kit. Perhaps for home brewing, educational institutions
and/or robotics research?
Is anybody interested -- or knows people who are?
For the fun of it, here is a sample session:
$ make mcuvvp -M. -mtty mcu # Build and start Verilog engine
:
$ make emu./emu ssd@ ssdA # Or: Build and start the emulator
:
Now we are in an environment equivalent to the standard 'pil +'. The
database is open on two image files for two SSD drives. Besides the
normal, full DB functionality
: (show *DB)
{1} (7 . {17})
T ({2} {20} {56} {64} {105} {146})
- {1}
you can call 'in', 'out', 'load' and 'rm' on files which are maintained
in external symbols:
: (dir)
- (lib.l lib/)
: (dir lib)
- (btree.l db.l dbg.l misc.l pilog.l sq.l)
: (in lib/db.l (read))
- (de dbs Lst (default *Dbs (_dbs 1)))
: (out foo/bar/mumble.l (prinl Hello world))
- Hello world
: (in foo/bar/mumble.l (line))
- (H e l l o w o r l d)
: (dir foo/bar)
- (mumble.l)
: (cd foo/bar)
- foo/bar/
: (dir)
- (mumble.l)
: (pwd)
- foo/bar/
Path names are stored as a normal B-Tree in the DB root:
: (scan)
foo/bar/mumble.l {172}
lib.l {2}
lib/btree.l {64}
lib/db.l {105}
lib/dbg.l {20}
lib/misc.l {56}
lib/pilog.l {146}
lib/sq.l {166}
They point to external symbols, like {2} for lib.l.
(load '{2})
is equivalent to
(load lib.l)
The values of these symbols hold the file size:
: (show '{2})
{2} 12401
- {2}
They should not have properties, and store the raw file data invisibly
in dynamically maintained DB blocks.
The rest of the system is standard PicoLisp :)
♪♫ Alex
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PicoLisp on Raspi
On September 19, 2014 at 3:18 PM Joe Bogner joebog...@gmail.com wrote: This might be off base, but is it within the realm of possibility to run PilMCU on a raspberry pi now or in the future? That's an accessible piece of hardware that many people already have (myself included). These people may also be willing to fund the work Raspi runs linux, so you can run PicoLisp on it right now. PilMCU is about new hardware chips. You could of course go the middle way, that could attract some attention: port PicoLisp to bare Raspberry Pi hardware. Also an interesting prospect. But the ARM cpu in the pi is not a natural fit, it is not 64 bit, only 32. So it would be more of a promo thing. But very cool in its own right. --jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Announce: PicoLisp in Hardware (PilMCU)
On September 19, 2014 at 7:32 PM Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote: Loyall, David david.loy...@nebraska.gov writes: The Internet would like to run this locally. Would you post the verilog source and build files? Or a link to a repository? I think this has the potential to make a very nice and successfull kickstarter project, so why not try to build a business idea around it instead of just giving away the verilog source and build files? +1 regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Picolisp Specific Training
Maybe Alex could for a price? On September 25, 2014 5:54:02 PM CEST, jerome moliere jer...@javaxpert.com wrote: Hi all, I think that everything is in the title... Do you know if someone supplies such training ? Kind regards -- J.MOLIERE - Mentor/J -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: MiniPicoLisp Code in ROM
Great to read on pilmcu and other updates! On October 8, 2014 at 8:23 AM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: But I feel that it doesn't make sense except for miniPicoLisp. By doing so, you save a few hundred kilobytes in RAM at most, but get the disadvantages of a less flexible runtime environment. I do not see significant advantages for pilMCU. So I have no plan at the moment to do that. But if the need would arise, it would not be exactly hard to implement? best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Strange PicoLisp site
someone registered that domain for PicoLisp, then did not renew the fee. When it was expired, the domain was snatched (like most expired domains are) by one of these companies which do nothing else but buy expired domains and resell them. The boilerplate text is just random junk to keep the page in google's index, to keep the value of the domain up a tiny little bit. --jakob On October 27, 2014 at 9:49 AM Thorsten Jolitz tjol...@gmail.com wrote: Hi List, have you seen this website: , | http://www.picolisp.org/ ` Its a nice looking website, but I cannot see no connection to PicoLisp whatsover. Or does 'picolisp' have other no technical meanings to native English speakers? Even the camel case they use is the same as in PicoLisp, maybe Alex should sue them for copyrights violations ... ;-) -- cheers, Thorsten -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Strange PicoLisp site
On October 27, 2014 at 10:20 AM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hi Jakob, our mails just crossed ;-) someone registered that domain for PicoLisp, then did not renew the fee. Yes, javuchi messed it up somehow, but it may not be only his fault. It seems to be possible that domains are stolen during transfers even if all fees were properly handled. We had this once with with software-lab.org, which we hosted at Strato (strato.de), and which was stolen during a transfer many years ago. I did not mean to put blame on anyone, except perhaps myself. I had forgot how it played out in detail. Anyway, there are ways to transfer the domain ownership without risking losing it. One of the best is to use the same DNS registrar for both the old and new owners. https://support.loopia.com/wiki/How_do_I_change_the_owner_of_my_domain_names%3F --jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: pilMCU progress (slowed)
On November 25, 2014 at 11:19 AM Kuba Tyszko k...@lbl.pl wrote: is this actually the whole picolisp converted somehow to a dedicated CPU running on FPGA, or is that an actual CPU emulated (say some kind of ARM), and picolisp compiled for that CPU ? It is a new CPU. I'm just trying to have a sense of what the pilMCU will become - will it be running on some kind of microcontroller, or will it actually run on a FPGA with a dedicated CPU, or maybe will it be some kind of ARM or MIPS core running on FPGA running the picolisp ? pilMCU is a new CPU. However, regular PicoLisp, can, and has been, ported to various microcontrollers. Any 32 or 64 bit microcontroller can have PicoLisp ported to it. best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Minor diff between 32-bit and Ersatz re. redefined
On December 11, 2014 at 3:39 PM Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hi Jon, (dm T (X Y) (=: x X) (=: y Y)) and then repeat the last line, then Ersatz will say # T +Shape redefined, but 32-bit PicoLisp will give no such redefined warning. It may not matter very much, I just wanted to mention it. (I haven’t tried 64-bit.) Oops, yes, very good! That's a bug in 'dm', in the place where the values are compared. I've fixed it. A bug in Erzats? --jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas to you too :-) On December 24, 2014 9:37:30 AM CET, Mattias Sundblad mattias@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I'd like to wish everyone on the list a merry christmas and a happy new year. Learning Picolisp is a great and fun challenge for me at least and I'm looking forward to continuing the journey. Also, a big thanks to Alex for all the hard work put into the language, designing and developing it as well as guiding us new ones along :). Merry Christmas! Mattias -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Java Interoperability - Why bother with Clojure?
Interesting development you have there, connecting the JVM to PicoLisp proper. Which makes me wonder about Ersatz PicoLisp though. How would it stand against other JVM alternatives? I know that Ersatz is not as fast as native PicoLisp. But for instance Groovy, is really slow on the JVM. Maybe Ersatz would be fast enough for serious work too, if Groovy is. On 02/02/15 15:11, Alexander Burger wrote: Hi all! A new library to call Java code from/to PicoLisp: http://picolisp.com/wiki/?javaCode ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Java Interoperability - Why bother with Clojure?
On 02/02/15 15:50, Alexander Burger wrote: Hi Jakob, Which makes me wonder about Ersatz PicoLisp though. How would it stand against other JVM alternatives? I know that Ersatz is not as fast as native PicoLisp. But for instance Groovy, is really slow on the JVM. Maybe Ersatz would be fast enough for serious work too, if Groovy is. But why bother to use Ersatz at all? And not the real thing? For using with Java? It depends. If I had a say of the deployment stack, yes, then why not use the real thing. I would choose native PicoLisp in a heartbeat! This bridge you developed is really good for mixing native PicoLisp performance with Java ecosystem. But sometimes the programmers don't have anything to say about how the servers are run - they just are told that we deploy the JVM with this and this version. They can use any language, just as long as that language works *inside* the JVM. In those instances, alternatives such as Ersatz are really nice. (By the way I really meant to say Clojure, not Groovy, but it doesn't matter. Ersatz could be a competitor to all the JVM languages.) best regards, Jakob -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: A Minimal PicoLisp DB/GUI Application
It's a really good example. On January 12, 2015 8:34:08 AM CET, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hi all, perhaps this is useful: A Minimal PicoLisp DB/GUI Application http://picolisp.com/wiki/?minDbGui ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: modules?
Even if that were so, couldn't we fix this with a convention in the module loader? That is, the loader concatenates all files into one upon loading. Is this crazy talk? On February 10, 2015 9:47:54 AM CET, andr...@itship.ch wrote: Hi Lawrence Nice you're taking part here! You're basically on the right track, but I think the things you mention don't work here, as picoLisp is strictly an interpreted language, there is no layer between source code and execution where such a name-mangling could happen. The source code IS the programm, which also has the great advantage that no magic and no weird stuff is happening which is not in the source code. There is namespace support in picoLisp ( http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.picolisp.general/2680 ), but currently I'm not sure if the problem is solved with it. I stopped using it in my personal work for some reasons I don't remember on the top of my head, but I think it was about problems with definining a namespace in multiple/different files... - Original Message - From: Lawrence Bottorff [mailto:borg...@gmail.com] To: picolisp@software-lab.de Sent: Mon, 9 Feb 2015 20:23:16 -0500 Subject: I'm a total Lisp noob (and a very rusty programmer), but from OO (Java, et al) there is (behind the scenes, i.e., preprocessor) name mangling. There's also tagging stuff with a huge hash generated numbers I say all this because I'm hearing the need for uniqueness and anti-name-clash -- across files and systems. Is that a correct assumption here? So when you call your getBob function, some other code you're involved with doesn't think that its (totally by chance also named) getBob function is meant. Am I on the right track? LB On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 7:12 PM, andr...@itship.ch wrote: Hi list Could we cook up a convention? Pretext - In this context I assume modules is meant not in the sense of program design but in the sense of software packages, a format to download/copy a piece of picoLisp code (maybe accompanied by other files, e.g. pictures) and insert it into your own picoLisp environment and/or picoLisp application and getting it running without further manual adaption. I see a potentially big advantage of such a formalized system, as it could greatly enhance picoLisp code reuse, and also work somewhat against the Lisp Curse [1] and the sometimes claimed lack of libraries. But it must be designed very carefully, keeping it as simple and short as possible, keeping it free from any assumptions (about the picoLisp environment or the layout of a picoLisp application) besides the absolute bare necessary ones, so no restrictions are put on the kind of code and applications using it. This thing is a easy path to bloatware, and to my understanding the picoLisp philosophy is all about precluding bloat. So I see following problems: 1) identity: how to identify a module and all parts belonging to it? (uniquely and universal) 2) dependencies on other modules: how to verify if another module, which the current module depends on, is 'installed' (and functional) ? 3) versioning of modules? 4) upgrading/downgrading of a module version, also: being able to use multiple versions of a module in the same environment 5) name clashing, especially of picoLisp code/symbols/function names/class names/etcetera 6) lets assume modules are not only used to extend the picoLisp environment (e.g. stuff in @lib/), but also for applications and parts of applications - then there should probably a way to formulate which database schema / class definitions (and more!) a module requires/expects for the environment where it should run in. 7) documentation - how does the interested module user find out what a given module does and how does he/she decide if it solves his/her needs? 8) in which form would a module be distributed? 9) uniform method of error reporting, especially to spot the source of an error in a composition of modules 10) other problems? Oh, special question - we have package manager on OS (e.g., apt-get), now we have all this hip programming languages with one or even multiple package managers each, ruby, node.js (npm), python?, .net, java?, php (pear and another one) and many more. DO WE REALLY NEED TO CREATE ANOTHER ONE? Maybe we could come up with a small tool, which can take picoLisp code (and a bunch of files) and create a package to use with one of those existing module/package managers? I mean the question in the spirit of http://xkcd.com/927/ My thoughts on solutions -- (previous question ignored for the moment) Whenever I stumble on such common software design problems, I query the Wiki (that is the first original wiki, originally being a collection and discussion of Design Patterns). A first search [2] brings some nice results like What is a module [3] and especially the Module Dependency Problem [4] (that one we should
Re: modules?
Could we cook up a convention? On February 9, 2015 6:12:17 PM CET, Henrik Sarvell hsarv...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Lawrence, if you're talking about something like Ruby's gems, then no. On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Lawrence Bottorff borg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm wondering what you offer in lieu of modules (as with, say, Python). Is there a black box way to package up code in picoLisp that has module-like serviceability? LB -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Sorry, no repo (Was: Google Code closing)
Fair enough! Whatever works best for you is for the best. On March 17, 2015 7:34:09 AM CET, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hi Jon, hi all! I'm very sorry, but from now on I won't support any repo for PicoLisp. As ever, the most up-to-date version can be downloaded from http://software-lab.de/picoLisp.tgz and related stuff is linked from the Download page http://software-lab.de/down.html I like being able to keep an eye on what Alex is working on. ;-) Sure :) I'll provide a ChangeLog file with more extensive notes about what is going on. ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Announce: 7fach BlitzMenu
Congratulations! On March 12, 2015 7:29:02 PM CET, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hello list, let me announce 7fach BlitzMenu, our first attempt for a public application since 9 years :) It is for gastronomers, restaurants or canteens, to maintain their dishes and beverages in a database, and allow them to generate their daily or weekly menus with just a few mouse clicks. Independent from the question whether it will be a commercial success (I hope it does), it has some interesting aspects from a technical (PicoLisp) point of view: 1. It allows the user to directly edit PostScript layout templates in a Canvas. Then these layouts can be combined with groups of articles from the database to generate PDF and HTML files. 2. I found out that the '+Bag' relations can be nested. This allows the creation of multi-dimensional data structures, directly in the DB model. Normally, a (+List +Bag) represents a two-dimensional table, which maps to a '+Chart' in the GUI. To my own surprise, it works also if an element in a bag is a (+List +Bag) again (i.e. nested Bags), resulting in a three-dimensional structure: (rel grp (+List +Bag) # Groups/Articles ((+Bool)) # Aktive ((+String)) # Description ((+List +Bag) # Articles ((+Bool)) # Aktive ((+Link) (+Art)) ) )# Article And: I found a way to allow direct editing of these structures in the GUI, by connecting charts on the different levels with radio buttons. In principle, this can be extended to as many dimensions as desired. The system is ready for production use now, and can be found at http://BlitzMenu.7fach.de Initial language is German, but you can switch to English if you like. Other languages are planned but not yet supported. The second entry in the navigation on the left is Introduction. Here you may view a short video (without sound) showing the basic usage. And the third entry is Try yourself. If you click on Start demo application you get a private demo database in a sandbox, where you can play around yourself. Note that your data are lost when you close the browser session. Please don't submit the form on New registration (unless, of course, you want to become a customer ;) ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Google Code closing
Github.com is really nice. On March 13, 2015 9:02:10 AM CET, Jon Kleiser jon.klei...@fsat.no wrote: Hi, It looks like PicoLisp will have to move from Google Code: http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/google-to-close-google-code-open-source-project-hosting/ Maybe GitHub could be a good alternative? I like being able to keep an eye on what Alex is working on. ;-) /Jon-- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Google Code closing
Github.com is more than a repo, it's a community of developers. On March 13, 2015 12:56:32 PM CET, Alexander Burger a...@software-lab.de wrote: Hi all, Alea iacta est :) Mike Pechkin has set up a repo at bitbucket. More next week. ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: Google Code closing
And github.com has like, what, 1000 times more developers. :-) On March 13, 2015 4:32:05 PM CET, Alexander Williams a...@unscramble.co.jp wrote: Everyone's comments are valid, but we need to remember: For PicoLisp's user base to grow, lowering barriers to entry should be the first priority. On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Loyall, David david.loy...@nebraska.gov wrote: Mike Pechkin has set up a repo at bitbucket. More next week. [...] Github.com is more than a repo, it's a community of developers. Once the repo is available on bitbucket, it will be trivial to set up an automatic mirror. Philosophically, I favor bitbucket. Pragmatically, I favor github(R). A mirror (with bitbucket being primary) serves both masters. If no one on the list already knows how to set up the automatic mirror and volunteers to do it, I'll volunteer to learn how to do it. Cheers, --Dave -- Skickat från min Android-telefon med K-9 E-post. Ursäkta min fåordighet.
Re: A PicoLisp native library tutorial
Yep. Definitely interesting. On 03/03/15 18:50, Joe Bogner wrote: Nicely done. Thanks for sharing On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Henrik Sarvell hsarv...@gmail.com wrote: Nice! On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:36 PM, Alexander Williams a...@unscramble.co.jp wrote: Hi list, Some of you might know me from IRC @aw-Unscramble. I've written my first PicoLisp library, a native C binding for Nanomsg (picolisp-nanomsg) - as an experiment for myself to learn this language. In doing so, I ran into a few difficulties (mostly noob stuff) but Regenaxer has been very helpful and patient. I also wrote a tutorial explaining the code, to help other newbies understand some useful features of PicoLisp: https://github.com/aw/picolisp-nanomsg/blob/master/EXPLAIN.md And of course, the library: https://github.com/aw/picolisp-nanomsg Thanks! -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Solaris 10 picolisp 64 build
You are not by any chance on a Sparc platform? On 03/03/15 20:57, Rick Hanson wrote: Sorry in advance if you’ve already covered this issue in the past. I’m on Solaris 10; I can build the 32-bit picolisp (3.1.9) with no problem. Then, I go do a (cd src64; make) (which is GNU make btw); this builds the x86-64.sunOS.base.s file via mkAsm, but it fails in the next step on gas --64 (which reads the .s file) with a bunch of errors of the form Error: Unknown opcode: `$OP' where $OP is any one of several opcodes, e.g. adc, addq, clc, ja, jbe, jz, movb, mul, etc. FIrst, I thought that a very old version of gas might be causing the issue (i.e. maybe it was not able to understand some of the new (?) opcodes; yes, I was very optimistic :); so I downloaded, built and installed binutils (2.24.51) which gave me a new gas. The new gas was of no avail — the same types of errors occurred. So, I then downloaded the .s files for Solaris from here: http://software-lab.de/x86-64.sunOs.tgz and unarced them in the picoLisp directory. As you can imagine, this didn’t work either — the same Unknown opcode messages were appearing. I suspect that I’m making a very fundamental mistake here, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. Am I using gas wrongly, or do I have the wrong assembler? Thanks for any help. —Rick rick42 on #picolisp -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: Solaris 10 picolisp 64 build
At this time, that's true. That said, it's not a herculean effort apparently, to port it, given that (correct me Alex or other if I'm wrong) Solaris uses ELF. Uses gas (not sure if it matters) You or the person doing the porting knows Sparc assembler. But of course not simple to do either... On 03/03/15 23:27, Rick Hanson wrote: All, does this mean that picoLisp64 cannot be built on a Solaris 10 sparc64 box? (That's what I have.) If not, no worries; I can, and will be happy to, still use picoLisp32 there. Thanks! On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:01 PM, Rick Hanson cryptor...@gmail.com wrote: down *by* the river. (I can't even get *that* right.) Cheers! On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Rick Hanson cryptor...@gmail.com wrote: Duh! That's it! And it even says x86 in the name!!! (e.g. `x86-64.sunOs.tgz`) I hereby turn in any computing creds I've garnered over the years to be thrown into burning inferno where they belong, and I'll go live in a box down my the river. :) Thanks! On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Jakob Eriksson ja...@aurorasystems.eu wrote: You are not by any chance on a Sparc platform? On 03/03/15 20:57, Rick Hanson wrote: Sorry in advance if you’ve already covered this issue in the past. I’m on Solaris 10; I can build the 32-bit picolisp (3.1.9) with no problem. Then, I go do a (cd src64; make) (which is GNU make btw); this builds the x86-64.sunOS.base.s file via mkAsm, but it fails in the next step on gas --64 (which reads the .s file) with a bunch of errors of the form Error: Unknown opcode: `$OP' where $OP is any one of several opcodes, e.g. adc, addq, clc, ja, jbe, jz, movb, mul, etc. FIrst, I thought that a very old version of gas might be causing the issue (i.e. maybe it was not able to understand some of the new (?) opcodes; yes, I was very optimistic :); so I downloaded, built and installed binutils (2.24.51) which gave me a new gas. The new gas was of no avail — the same types of errors occurred. So, I then downloaded the .s files for Solaris from here: http://software-lab.de/x86-64.sunOs.tgz and unarced them in the picoLisp directory. As you can imagine, this didn’t work either — the same Unknown opcode messages were appearing. I suspect that I’m making a very fundamental mistake here, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. Am I using gas wrongly, or do I have the wrong assembler? Thanks for any help. —Rick rick42 on #picolisp -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: MySQL native C wrapper
Good initiative - the more ways to connect, the better, IMHO. On 26/04/15 23:00, Henrik Sarvell wrote: Hi list, I'm announcing this at a very early stage, earlier than I would like to, in case someone else is also thinking about doing a MySQL wrapper, to avoid duplicate work. I'm not doing this because I think that MySQL is in any way a better alternative than the native DB functionality, rather the opposite. The main reasoning is that it might help adoption of the language as I've come to believe that how the data is stored could be as big a hurdle to switch as the language switch itself - for many organisations - if they can keep their data as it is (to begin with) half the battle might already be won. PicoLisp with MySQL is still better than say PHP with MySQL. It also helps in migrating from MySQL to the native DB. It's all inspired by Alex Williams' nice and instructive use of the native stuff here: http://aw.github.io/picolisp//2015/02/22/nanomsg/ And I couldn't have managed without AB's writeup here: http://software-lab.de/doc/native.html Without further ado: https://bitbucket.org/hsarvell/ext/src/default/mysql.l?at=default Note that you can't just run with the file linked to above, you need the mysql.so file in the ext/so folder too. If no one beats me to it I will do some more work on this one in the future and will announce here when there's something to show. -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: New article - Installing local wiki with Kerberos authentication
Interesting. Is the server a Windows server or Linux? On 14/04/15 14:19, Mansur Mamkin wrote: Hi all! I'm happy to announce a litle article: Installing local wiki with Kerberos authentication http://picolisp.com/wiki/?localwikikerberos Best regards, Mansur Mamkin -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: PilMCU is dead - Long live PilOS!
Thank you! On 19/06/15 22:16, Alexander Burger wrote: Hi all, I'm happy to announce PilOS - The PicoLisp Operating System! It is a modification of the infamous PilMCU, which unfortunately doesn't seem to get off the ground. So in order not to have wasted all that effort, I decided to let it run on standard PC hardware, basically directly off the BIOS. In the future, we might think of utilizing it in embedded systems. I release it free to the public. It is currently just a toy project, which gave me lots of fun during the last two weeks. You can read more about it, watch a demo video, and download all at http://picolisp.com/wiki/?PilOS ♪♫ Alex -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
Re: PicoLisp now detected on GitHub
This is great! On 17/06/15 17:48, Christophe Gragnic wrote: Hi list. They even spelled it correctly ! https://github.com/github/linguist/pull/2449#issuecomment-112829159 See one of your repos or this one: https://github.com/Microalg/Microalg chri -- UNSUBSCRIBE: mailto:picolisp@software-lab.de?subject=Unsubscribe
