Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?
I'm not sure that Vyatta has much of anything over Mikrotik today, because Mikrotik has matures to be be a very complete and reliable router package. When we originally looked at Vyatta, Mikrotik had BGP bugs, and Vyatta used Quagga and was maintaining it. But from what I here MIkrotik has stable BGP for quite a while now, so that is no longer a reason. As well, Mikrotik programmers are really good, its amazing they can produce so much for so little dollars. But they aren;t really available to custom code something that does not already fit into the Mikrotik vision. But at teh end of the day, Vyatta offfers one thing that Mikrotik has never been willing to do. Open their system, and have a mechanism to pay someone to add code. Vyatta does that well. They are expensive, but they have the skill set. And there model is paid support, so pretty sure they'd accept any kind of paid updates to teh distro. We also had looked at Vyatta because we were searching for a open maintained linux system that we could port our own proprietary management system to. For us, we determined it was more cost effective and quicker for us to just stay with what we had, but port it over to a newer Kernel. Vyatta, is straight Linux, and can handle some really extreme speeds. Easilly in the multi-gb. We did not like the Vyatta canned solutions, because they didn;t to favor Dell systems, and most all teh Dell systems are 26 deep with limited port expansion. We found if we made our own systems, we could select 14, 18, and 22 deep units that were more easilly mounted in smaller depth racks, and still ahve the latest fastest processors. Of course Vyatta can be loaded on many other systems, other than the ones they sell, but that shifts the support back to the buyer, and the Vyatta model is most attractive to those that dont want the headache of self support. I'd argue the more relevent comparision is to compare Vyatta versus Imagestream. They are the two Open router platforms. What does Vyatta have that Imagestream cant give you? Well, Vyatta is a software platform, so it does give the buyer more options on verious applications to use it. For example, using community version at no charge in applications that can survive not having support. But the flip side is that Imagestream also offers a wide varietty of configurations now right out of the box. They have low cost models, and high performance models. All three platforms (Vyatta, Mikrotik, Imagestream) all have a compelte feature set to do 95% of what a buyer will need done. I really think it boils down to what type total package you need. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 1:10 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Vyatta? So who has used Vyatta and Mikrotik? Differences? On 4/3/10, Glenn Kelley gl...@hostmedic.com wrote: vyatta overview: http://www.vyatta.com/products/index.php PFSense overview: http://www.pfsense.org On Apr 3, 2010, at 12:52 AM, Glenn Kelley wrote: I love Vyatta. I love PFSense... I love a bunch of other applications that can do this as well... BUT it might be worth asking what the job that you want the router to perform. While some may bash vYatta - Keep in mind - when the reload happened - they specifically did that for their own Support Contracts ... folks that paid them - but yes - a major release required a reload. I can tell horror stories about having to do this w/ Cisco Vax 7200's 2650's and such as well. IOS updates do not always go as well as they advertise... Why I do like vYatta is the simple fact they provide both the CLI and GUI - (command line interface and graphical user interface)... Here are a few reasons why folks in this board should consider vYatta community edition: (free) 1. Load Balancing 2. BGP (Full ) 3. vLAN - do vlans out to the radios 4. PPPOE - if you wanted to use it 5. Parental Controls 6. Speed Control / Traffic Shaping - You can do this right on your router. 7. SQUID - cache things vs hitting the web all the time for the same content (like windows updates, youtubes, etc ) I resell vYatta paid version for those interested - but for most the community center is just fine. The paid edition will give you all of the aforementioned with the ability to obtain paid support - and this is based upon the following: 1. what type of contract you have purchased 2. severity of the request - (ie everything down vs just a feature request) that being said - WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO DO ? If you have a simple setup - and just need full BGP - you might also want to check out another Open Source Project called PFSense. PFSense is full FreeBSD - runs on most any x86 hardware. I can help any of you with this as well. The PFSense book is a great place to start
Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?
One last note on Vyatta and Linux routing For low port count applications, most router OSs will be fine. But, as one approaches the 300mbps+ per port, and multiple ports, X86 systems run into processor issues regarding PPS and small packets. There were two ways to solve it. 1) Use NAPI. 2) Spread the networking load accross multiple processors. Basically if you have a 4 port Gig-E card, you use a quad processor and dedicate one processor to each of the ports. Or, if 12 ports, dedcicate 3 ports per core, Etc. For next generation routers Quad Proceesor technology is very relevent. One thing that turned me away from Vyatta was that they started charging per processor licensing (yrly). Support for a QUAD processor got very expensive. I didn't see any reason to handicap my systems, to comply to a licensing issue, when QUAD processors themself were very cheap. I'm not sure on this, but I dont think teh community edition allowed mutli-processor, but maybe Glenn could clear that up. Many routers will work fine with a single or dual processor doing a gig or so of throughput with NAPI. So a single Core Vyatta system can push a lot of traffic. But, if you use a router system that can use multiple cores, you can better isolate the impact to your network segments under DDOS situations, since each nic has its own processor. It wasn;t a concern of peak throughout, it was a factor of how well the router could survive a harsh DDOS attack. Its one of the reasons that we build our own distro on straight Linux. I do not know if the other Linux Router solutions are imbracing the muti-core per NIC feature yet or not. But its a critical step for multi-Gig routing. When there is a 300-750mbps Apex on each NIC at a cell site, it becomes relevent for growth. The thing is... Its not like you can manually assign processors to NICs. Its like an automatic thing. So you need to know that each NIC has a processor, because you never really know where you are going to sell capacity on the network and where the DOS small packets will come from. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Vyatta? *Versions 3.10-20 (ish not sure exactly where) had a hell of a battle with x86 and multiple CPUs/cores. *I had some 1xx and 5xx boards that would lock up over time. *Nstreme2 (dual nstreme) locked up for me when I used it. *Wasn't it 3.20 that caused x86 to lock up if there was a simple queue? That was a fun one... The more you use (dare I say) any product the more flaws you find. Don't expect anything to be perfect, but rather find what fits best. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote: The only time I ever had a Mikrotik lock up was due to something stupid that I did, not the router. Rock solid when not configured by me. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of e...@wisp-router.com Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2010 11:43 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Vyatta? I would have to agree. Have had routers doing lot of work that had uptime over a year (one that almost hit 500 days but lightning got the better of one ethernet port). The ones I seen problems it tend to be bad PC hardware or lack of memory. One router I saw would experience issues where vlans would die and ip's assigned to the vlan interfaces would go invalid. Turned out the unit had to little ram for what was going on on it (vlans, dns proxy, queues, lot of firewall rules, layer 7 firewall rules, dhcp servers and vpn server) installed more ram and unit ran flawless since (had 256MB to start with, 512MB improved but would occasionally still have issues and need reboot, 1GB and no issues after running for months). /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 00:12:38 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Vyatta? Hi, I would like to be the first to say that the article about Skybeam seems a little over dramatic. The quote that their Mikrotik routers had to be rebooted every few days would indicate to me that they had hardware problems, not software (Mikrotik) problems. I have Mikrotik routers on my network that have been up over a full year without a single reboot or issue. The only reason it's only a year is due to software upgrades. With over 200 Mikrotik routers on my network (several moving over 100Mbps of traffic and 10,000pps daily and one moving over
Re: [WISPA] Vyatta?
What Vyatta does is pretty cool. And they have also been giving back to open source community some of the source they write fixes to. They are trying to make Linux look and feel like a cisco router. I have a lot of respect for their effort. But the bad is its priced wrong. They are going high end, targeting a coporate user that might have one or two routers. They make their money on support contracts and their fees are very expensive. You pay per router, per processor, per year. And at $600-$900 each./yr or something like that. Then there is the free community version, but. past history showed they have policies to discourage against using it commercially based on what they update. For example, it was not possible to upgrade from one version to another, not to long ago w/ community version. You had to wipe, reload, and hand re-type the config from scratch. Could you imagine how horrid that would be if it was your Core ISP router that you needed to upgrade? Dont expect to get all your routers access to the update source tree with one license. When I priced it out, from an ISP's perspective, Imagestream was way more affordable for a commercial supported product, and also a somewhat open platform, and of course Mikrotik, although a closed platform, is way more affordable. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tom Sharples tsharp...@qorvus.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 8:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Vyatta? Time to update our ancient and overloaded main router. I'm intrigued by Vyatta and am wondering if anyone out here has any experience - good or bad - with them. Thanks, Tom S. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Oh this business, tell me again why we love it?!
Bob, I fully agree with your point. FCC enforcement is not the best method for promptly curing illegal interference that is harming one's operations. The process does not move fast enough for that. I know if I have not resolved such interference within the day, I've lost the subscribers. There is always a better approach, whether it be to rebuild one's own equipment/network to work around it, negotiate directly with other party, cause reciprocal harm until they play nice, or have attorney send letter. FCC enforcement only occurs at a time table acceptable to penalize those that abuse and ignore the regulations. It was mentioned recently by WISPA's attorney (Steve), that the FCC's authority is only to shut down abusers and fine abusers. There are no mechanisms or legal authority for compensating those that have been interferred with. If illegal interference occurs to the level that rebuilding one's own radio solution can not help, and the time involved in engaging the FCC is needed, I'd argue that it is likely a situation where the one being interfered with is at risk of incurring enough significant harm, that it may be wise to document the violation legally anyways. Thus, might be worth sending the attorney letter. You'd atleast then be able to prove if the violator agreed or refused to cooperate and take corrective action. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lakeland lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 9:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Oh this business, tell me again why we love it?! I agree with WHO. But you are talking MONTHS and not even sure if anything has been done. How many people out here can wait MONTHS for a cure to their issue? And its unknown if there even was or will be any enforcement action. If I make a complaint to enforcement regarding a licensed interference issue they are on that within 24 hours. If I tell them who and where and/or its a public safety issue they will usually respond within hours. But you're saying MONTHS with all the right info. I don't know. Still sounds like what I said. :-) -B- Marlon K. Schafer writes: I get what you are saying Bob. But sometimes it's more about knowing WHO to call. I just had a guy call with a similar problem. You all know him and I'd drop his name but I don't want to tip off the dirt bag operator. When he first called the FCC he ended up at the wrong place. They told him that there was nothing they could do. I had him call back and specifically ask for the enforcement folks NOT the consumer complaint folks. He had pictures, spectrum analyzer, radio screen shots etc. that showed, clearly, that the other guy was aiming antennas right at his. When the good guy moved channels the bad guy moved with him, within days. He was also able to get together with another local WISP who added his name to the complaint. This did take a couple of months to work through the system but last I'd heard the FCC HAD been working on this complaint. Perhaps it's far enough along that the good guy can tell you a bit more. 1-800-call-fcc Ask for ENFORCEMENT. You need to have your documentation in order first. It's true that we all have to accept interference. It's also true that we can't CAUSE it maliciously. They also have a hissy fit when we go over the allowable power levels. For what it's worth, nearly all of my systems are below, often well below, legal levels. They tend to work better that way anyhow. Use bigger antennas not more power. Range and reliability is about SNR. You can get that in two ways. More power is one. Better ears is another. Better ears also mean narrower beams which usually means less interference which also means greater SNR which means longer ranges which means less AP's which means less interference etc. etc. etc. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Lakeland lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Oh this business, tell me again why we love it?! Marlon, You have personal contacts. That's cheating. I have contacts too and could probably get action if I needed it but I am talking the regular Wisp calling the field office. Unless you have an inside number at the field office you usually only get the recorded TV interference message. Maybe I'm just totally wrong. -B- Marlon K. Schafer writes: H, I've had much better luck that than Bob. marlon - Original Message - From: Lakeland lakel...@gbcx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 7:16 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Oh this business, tell me again why we love it?! Sorry I side with Travis. I have quite a few experiences with Enforcement Bureau out of NY
Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo to acquire Aperto
Well. Aperto's current backlog of all purchase orders is US$8.3 million. This will be added to Tranzeo's current backlog of US$32.7M. Tranzeo will issue common shares to the stockholders of Aperto based on a US$5 million base consideration amount, as adjusted for liabilities and cash of Aperto at closing. I dont know that in-trouble was an appropriate inference, Aperto has many valueable assets such as patents, reputation, and customer base. But the above quotes would suggest that Aperto was comming up short on capital (cash) for future growth, considering it appears they agreed to merge for under the value of pending revenue/sales. Whether this is a good thing for past Aperto Stockholders, I do not know. But I can only view this as a good thing for WISPs, and the emerged stronger combined company. I also would think this would strengthen equipment buyer's confidence that they were buying into a complete solution that would last, with the AP/CPE manufactures tied togeather as one by more than just the wimax standard. I also find it interesting that Aperto will continue to operating as an independent subsidiary, after words. I could think of a few reasons why. Just wondering if that is partially to also protect each product line's focus (Aperto high end, Tranzeo value line). Then again, maybe operating under the Tranzeo vision, Aperto AP will migrate into the value line also. I dont mean anything bad by that, Aperto offers lots of value, I'm just referring to the fact that the Tranzeo compoents sell at lower price. I also dont think this is a good one to compare to Proxim mergers, as just occured. With Proxim mergers, there wasn't really much complimentary product offerings achievied by each party, if anything there was duplication of lines and discontinuance of lines. Where as with Aperto/Tranzeo, clearly the marriage of the AP and CPE makes sense. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Drew Lentz d...@drewlentz.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:42 AM Subject: [WISPA] Tranzeo to acquire Aperto Didn't see this one coming but it looks like it could lead to some nice products for WISPs. http://bit.ly/bX4HTc Canadian Company Tranzeo Wireless to Acquire Aperto Networks Tranzeo strengthens its international market with complete broadband solution PITT MEADOWS, BRITISH COLUMBIA, Mar 31, 2010 (MARKETWIRE via COMTEX) -- BC-based Tranzeo Wireless Technologies Inc. (CA:TZT /investing/stock/TZT?countrycode=ca 1.61, +0.04, +2.55%), a premier manufacturer of wireless broadband and WiMAX communication systems, announced today it has entered into a definitive merger agreement with Aperto Networks, Inc. (Aperto) and key Aperto shareholders. Under the terms of the merger agreement, and upon the satisfaction of closing conditions, Aperto will be merged into a newly incorporated subsidiary of Tranzeo, with Aperto surviving and continuing to be operated as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Tranzeo. The merger will greatly increase Tranzeo's market share as it becomes a complete end-to-end broadband solutions provider featuring WiFi, WiMax and LTE products. Aperto's current backlog of all purchase orders is US$8.3 million. This will be added to Tranzeo's current backlog of US$32.7M. Acquiring Aperto immediately transforms Tranzeo into a market leading complete solutions provider for major telecommunications operators while still supplying product to Tranzeo's existing wireless Internet service providers, said Jim Tocher, President and CEO of Tranzeo. With an established world-wide customer base and a pipeline of new customers now in trials, the benefits of today's announcement will start to bear fruit within a year. The future for Tranzeo has never looked better. The combining of Tranzeo and Aperto is a big win for wireless service providers, said Randall Meals, Chairman of Aperto's Board and Managing Director of Quicksilver Ventures. We continue to be bullish on the broadband wireless market and now Tranzeo's position in the market. Existing Tranzeo and Aperto customers will greatly benefit from the combined technologies and complete solutions Tranzeo will now be able to provide. Tranzeo's responsiveness, world-class manufacturing and additional product breadth combined with Aperto's proven worldwide sales, support team, and channels will significantly benefit our customers on a global basis,said Bill Waters, Senior Vice President of Worldwide Sales and Support at Aperto Networks. I am looking forward to serving our existing customers, expanding our market and providing new solutions to our channel partners. This is very good news for TRG and the future of broadband services in Indonesia, said Gatot Tetuko, President of PT. Teknologi Riset Global (TRG), an affiliate company of leading telecommunication infrastructure provider the Indonesian Tower Group. With our joint
Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo to acquire Aperto
Well, I fully agree that there was a time in history when ATI conflicted with every other thing, and Nvidia just worked. But in today's world, I'm finding Nvidia to be almost just as bad.(And I'm a Nvidia fan) Now, my ATI cards seem to just work. I'm not talking about gaming compatibilty. I'm talking about the whole PC crashing or wierd video problems, just using the operating system with various MBs. Its a vicious circle, this PC world we live in.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo to acquire Aperto ATI couldn't build a quality driver to save their life, so I have refused to purchase any ATI based motherboard or video card. NVidia only. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 2:12 PM To: nstooke...@wisperisp.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo to acquire Aperto Really? I hadn't heard that before. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 3:06 PM, Nathan Stooke nstooke...@wisperisp.com wrote: Hello, But AMD was. LOL -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 11:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo to acquire Aperto Not all buy outs mean the company is in trouble, does it? I didn't think ATI was in trouble when AMD bought them. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com wrote: Wow Was Aperto in financial trouble? This is like YDI buying Proxim Or Ubiquity buying Motorola Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Mar 31, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Drew Lentz d...@drewlentz.com wrote: Didn't see this one coming but it looks like it could lead to some nice products for WISPs. http://bit.ly/bX4HTc Canadian Company Tranzeo Wireless to Acquire Aperto Networks Tranzeo strengthens its international market with complete broadband solution PITT MEADOWS, BRITISH COLUMBIA, Mar 31, 2010 (MARKETWIRE via COMTEX) -- BC-based Tranzeo Wireless Technologies Inc. (CA:TZT /investing/stock/TZT?countrycode=ca  1.61, +0.04, +2.55%), a premier manufacturer of wireless broadband and WiMAX communication systems, announced today it has entered into a definitive merger agreement with Aperto Networks, Inc. (Aperto) and key Aperto shareholders. Under the terms of the merger agreement, and upon the satisfaction of closing conditions, Aperto will be merged into a newly incorporated subsidiary of Tranzeo, with Aperto surviving and continuing to be operated as a wholly-owned subsidiary of Tranzeo. The merger will greatly increase Tranzeo's market share as it becomes a complete end-to-end broadband solutions provider featuring WiFi, WiMax and LTE products. Aperto's current backlog of all purchase orders is US $8.3 million. This will be added to Tranzeo's current backlog of US$32.7M. Acquiring Aperto immediately transforms Tranzeo into a market leading complete solutions provider for major telecommunications operators while still supplying product to Tranzeo's existing wireless Internet service providers, said Jim Tocher, President and CEO of Tranzeo. With an established world-wide customer base and a pipeline of new customers now in trials, the benefits of today's announcement will start to bear fruit within a year. The future for Tranzeo has never looked better. The combining of Tranzeo and Aperto is a big win for wireless service providers, said Randall Meals, Chairman of Aperto's Board and Managing Director of Quicksilver Ventures. We continue to be bullish on the broadband wireless market and now Tranzeo's position in the market. Existing Tranzeo and Aperto customers will greatly benefit from the combined technologies and complete solutions Tranzeo will now be able to provide. Tranzeo's responsiveness, world-class manufacturing and additional product breadth combined with Aperto's proven worldwide sales, support team, and channels will significantly benefit our customers on a global basis,said Bill Waters, Senior Vice President of Worldwide Sales and Support at Aperto Networks. I am looking forward to serving our existing customers, expanding
Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions
I'd also ask, is your goal to track end user's usage of their connection and of the network, or end user's usage of the Internet Transit? Tracking usage at the backend (NOC) may not capture all the data that transfers directly between one on-net end user and another on-net end user. It can also get complicated when data doesn't all terminate in one location, for example if peering. When there are multiple Transits, the data collected from both transits need to be added togeather. Thus, when we collected data we always collected data at the first hop, closest to the Customer's door step. It made it simpler, and accurate. We wrote our own SNMP Agent and basic MRTG tools to collect, and isntalled on our Linux routers. Others wont have that luxury if they use a closed router platform (such as MT or StarOS). So I cant offer a solution for that, just share my experience. One also should ask themselves if they want to charge end users for the initial data that passes, or network resources used which might include duplicate transmitions. I'm referrring to a network that may have congestion or hidden node, where ARQ or TCP retransmittions may use more network resources than the size of the file transfered. For example, if RF has 10% packet loss at layer2, ARQ or LAyer3 may fix it, to use 110 mb or resources to transmit 100mb. In other words, should you bill the customer for extra transmissions caused by poor quality of your own network? And what if you use compression algorythms or packet aggregation, do you charge them for the uncompressed payload that will transverse the Internet, or the lower actual bandwidth across the transport or RF network which includes compressed data? My point here is that where you collect data can change the numbers. Then you have to consider the ease of polling the data, and the network usage that get consumed to do it. If the StarOS boxes are doing your NAT, it sounds like that is likely the best location to pull usage data. Good luck with it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions Scott, 4) StarOS routers performing NAT at each backbone location It's StarOS NATing the customers off of the backbone. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Scott Reed scottr...@onlyinternet.net wrote: If you can run IPTrack (see some of Marlon's previous posts) you have have the MTs report by IP address back to the server. I have done this on my network, though it is not running right now. I would be glad to help if you opt to go this way. Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Hello list, I am looking for a solution that will keep track of the monthly bandwidth consumption for all of my broadband customers and am having a hard time coming up with a good solution. Our goal is to collect the traffic flows every 15 minutes and generate three things: 1) Internal reports showing bandwidth consumption by customers and that is in a database form that we can perform queries on 2) Data that can be exported to our customer portal page that will show customers how much bandwidth they have consumed since the first of each month 3) A batch file showing customers over their thresholds that we can import into our billing system (Freeside) at the end of the month so we can bill overages Our system is setup as follows: 1) StarOS access points 2) OSPF backbone back to two separate 50 meg Internet backbone links 3) Mikrotik core routers at each backbone location 4) StarOS routers performing NAT at each backbone location 5) Mikrotik edge routers connected to the Internet backbone Radius accounting is not an option, due to inaccurate IP accounting information returned by the StarOS APs. PPPoE is also not an option as we have 2000+ customers in place and not all of the hardware would easily convert to PPPoE. Ideally, the data should be collectable at the Mikrotik core routers, as that is the place where all of the private IP traffic is still in its pre-NAT status. We have been trying to keep track of it with Netflow data from our Mikrotik core routers, but it does not seem to be accurate and there are documented problems with the Mikrotik Netflow exports. We have confirmed that the data we have been collecting is not accurate, and I have no intention on billing a customer based on inaccurate data. We have a couple of reporting engines that we have tried, with mixed levels of success. I did contact Brandon Checketts about his program, which was close to what we wanted, but it is out of date and he was not responsive
Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions
Why not do the collection from the BM Queues further out? The way we did it on our system, is that each customer packet got tagged (with a unique Cust ID) when it arrived at the first hop router, and then sent to Bandwidth management or where ever the CustID rules was configured to send it. But because of this there were many places that counted the packets, that we could pull the data from. It is a lot of work to start from scratch with 2000 users, but it sounds like you might already have some of it done with Queues per customer. For us, we just set up a router naming sceme so in our back end systems we know how to automatically point to what first hop router that is responsible for the customer's data. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists li...@manageisp.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions Actually, I could potentially do it from the Mikrotik router at the core, behind the StarOS NAT server. Only problem is that the NetFlow collector on Mikrotik is broken. That is why we are leaning toward something between the core and NAT servers to collect the data. Queues will not work, as I would have to put 2000+ queues into that box and they are unnecessary because we have queues in the StarOS APs doing the bandwidth control further out. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com On 3/30/2010 2:27 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: Then you will need to find a solution with StarOS. Can you maybe set a single queue for each customer and then obtain that via SNMP? I'm totally unfamiliar with StarOS. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 4:26 PM, Matt Larsen - Lists li...@manageisp.com wrote: Hi Josh, I'm wanting to track how much each individual customers is using so I can bill the ones that go over our bandwidth cap. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com On 3/30/2010 1:57 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: I think we need to find out if I am looking for a solution that will keep track of the monthly bandwidth consumption for all of my broadband customers... means how much you're entire upstream is using or how much each customer is using individually so you can find the top few heavy users. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:52 PM, Scott Reedscottr...@onlyinternet.net wrote: 3) Mikrotik core routers at each backbone location I took it that all traffic goes through these as well. Matt, does all your traffic run through an MT somewhere on its way out? Josh Luthman wrote: Scott, 4) StarOS routers performing NAT at each backbone location It's StarOS NATing the customers off of the backbone. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 3:32 PM, Scott Reedscottr...@onlyinternet.netwrote: If you can run IPTrack (see some of Marlon's previous posts) you have have the MTs report by IP address back to the server. I have done this on my network, though it is not running right now. I would be glad to help if you opt to go this way. Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Hello list, I am looking for a solution that will keep track of the monthly bandwidth consumption for all of my broadband customers and am having a hard time coming up with a good solution. Our goal is to collect the traffic flows every 15 minutes and generate three things: 1) Internal reports showing bandwidth consumption by customers and that is in a database form that we can perform queries on 2) Data that can be exported to our customer portal page that will show customers how much bandwidth they have consumed since the first of each month 3) A batch file showing customers over their thresholds that we can import into our billing system (Freeside) at the end of the month so we can bill overages Our system is setup as follows: 1) StarOS access points 2) OSPF backbone back to two separate 50 meg Internet backbone links 3) Mikrotik core routers at each backbone location 4) StarOS routers performing NAT at each backbone location 5) Mikrotik edge routers connected to the Internet backbone Radius accounting is not an option, due to inaccurate IP accounting information returned by the StarOS APs. PPPoE is also not an option as we have
Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions
Thats why we had the first hop router record the data from each customer, and then have monitoring box with MRTG pull all the data from the first hop router in one shot. It was much less load on the network. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Richey myli...@battleop.com To: n...@brevardwireless.com; 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions I had CactiEZ running in a VM Ware on a Dell 1850 with 4GB of ram. It did fine with about 200 devices but the time would drift really bad.In 10 minutes the time would be off by hours.I am now running it on the same 1850 but not in a VM with a few hundred graphs now. Richey -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Nick Olsen Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 5:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions Well, This would be a little more time consuming. And would need a hell of a cacti box. But you could SNMP hit each customers CPE device if it supports it. That would be quite the load for the cacti box though. I second cacti easy though. We have a box running CactiEZ with 68 sensors on it, and it sits around all day doing nothing in terms of hardware usage. Every time I've tried it in a VM its had bad performance issues around 20 sensors. Nick Olsen Network Engineer / Customer Support (321) 205-1100 x106 From: Steven McGehee stev...@qx.net Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 4:49 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions We're also big fans and long time users of Cacti, so I'd happily recommend it as well. On 3/30/2010 16:46, Justin Wilson wrote: Cacti would be what I would start with. I have set it up where business customers have their own individual logins and can see just the graphs you want them to. It has built in graphs for 95th percentile. There is a plugin called nectar which allows you to have graphs e-mailed. You can also install the flowview plugin. Not sure how to get it talking to freeside though. -- Justin Wilsonj...@mtin.net http://www.mtin.net http://www.metrospan.net From: Matt Larsen - Listsli...@manageisp.com Reply-To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:24:20 -0600 To: Mikrotik discussionsmikro...@mail.butchevans.com, WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Bandwidth Tracking Solutions Hello list, I am looking for a solution that will keep track of the monthly bandwidth consumption for all of my broadband customers and am having a hard time coming up with a good solution. Our goal is to collect the traffic flows every 15 minutes and generate three things: 1) Internal reports showing bandwidth consumption by customers and that is in a database form that we can perform queries on 2) Data that can be exported to our customer portal page that will show customers how much bandwidth they have consumed since the first of each month 3) A batch file showing customers over their thresholds that we can import into our billing system (Freeside) at the end of the month so we can bill overages Our system is setup as follows: 1) StarOS access points 2) OSPF backbone back to two separate 50 meg Internet backbone links 3) Mikrotik core routers at each backbone location 4) StarOS routers performing NAT at each backbone location 5) Mikrotik edge routers connected to the Internet backbone Radius accounting is not an option, due to inaccurate IP accounting information returned by the StarOS APs. PPPoE is also not an option as we have 2000+ customers in place and not all of the hardware would easily convert to PPPoE. Ideally, the data should be collectable at the Mikrotik core routers, as that is the place where all of the private IP traffic is still in its pre-NAT status. We have been trying to keep track of it with Netflow data from our Mikrotik core routers, but it does not seem to be accurate and there are documented problems with the Mikrotik Netflow exports. We have confirmed that the data we have been collecting is not accurate, and I have no intention on billing a customer based on inaccurate data. We have a couple of reporting engines that we have tried, with mixed levels of success. I did contact Brandon Checketts about his program, which was close to what we wanted, but it is out of date and he was not responsive so our efforts are focused on either using something open source that we can modify or just buying an appliance that will do what we need. My preference is to go open source because we have multiple backbone connections and also because I have several consulting
Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle
I'd argue the largest reason for downtilt is to prevent interference with a far out cell site. Even with 5.8 I've had sectors interfere with other sectors 25 miles away,without downtilt. The problem is that downtilt can also cause more multi-path if shooting into urban concrete instead of rural dirt. Sometimes not having downtilt can result in a better quality link, believe it or not. But whats important is having the flexibilty to point the antenna the way you need to point when you need to. You dont always know in advance what is finally needed. One can only engineer and predict the appropriate downtilt, but predictions dont always come true. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lawrence E. Bakst m...@iridescent.org To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, March 29, 2010 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti Sector Tilt angle Technically speaking you're wrong. The highest gain area of a sector antenna is the center point between the horizontal and vertical spreads. If you don't downtilt you are sending the strongest part of the signal parallel to the horizon. Why would you ever want to do that? The whole reason you downtilt is to get the strongest signal pointed to the area you want. Figuring this out takes some basic trig calcs using the tangent function. No one has asked the most important questions you need to know when calculating downtilt: 1. How high up is the sector antenna? 2. How far out or in what range near to far do you want the sweet spot? 3. How close in to the tower do you need service? #2 and #3 can conflict with each other and you may have to make a tradeoff. leb At 2:22 PM -0400 3/29/10, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: . Technically speaking.. if you are not concerned about dealing with 'near' customers less than 1 or 2 miles... then you can pretty much leave the sectors at '0' tilt.. and you have coverage to the horizon The built-in electrical down-tilt typically throws folks off.. only becomes a factor if you are needing to down tilt for near customers.. Faisal. On 3/29/2010 1:36 PM, Robert West wrote: I'm having a heck of a time with the large UBNT sectors getting the tilt angle to jive. With the smaller sectors, they behave perfectly and go right where the calculations say they will however, with the larger ones, nothing I do other than have someone 10 miles out with a CPE check levels while I tilt up and down seems to be good. I REALLY don't want to have to do that with all of them... Anyone having any success or insight with the proper tilt of these things? Using the 120 degree 5GHz flavors. Thanks! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 Logo5 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- l...@iridescent.org WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Oh this business, tell me again why we love it?!
I dont necessarilly agree with that, and I dont think the FCC would either. What I do know is they dont want to go out of their way to harrass WISPs and take action that will result in Consumers loosing their broadband, unnecessarilly. (although they cant say that out loud.) To get action from the FCC, the complainer needs to provide proof that the alledged violator is in fact in violation, and proof that it is causing harm. It cant just be a theory or allegation. I recognize there are budget cuts, shortage of time, and higher priorities, but also I dont believe there are really all that many complaints that actually are backed with real proof, and really getting harmed. The FCC has enough man power to respond to legitimate critical complaints, where there is a good reason to investigate. However, I agree engaging an Attorny and having him send a letter is probably a quicker way to get an initial response. The second both sides start to have to spend money at lawyer rates, people get real quickly, on how important it is or isn't to have the illegal radio isntalled or removed. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Lakeland lakel...@gbcx.net To: Tom Sharples tsharp...@qorvus.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Oh this business, tell me again why we love it?! This is really the only way to handle this. Send them a cease and desist letter because they are interrupting your service and serve them certified mail. Then go after them with a lawyer. Unless the entity that is receiving interference is the FCC or works for them, I would say you have no chance whatsoever to get any action from the Commission. Part 15 is not allowed to interfere and must accept any interference that is does receive. A simple clarification from the FCC. Don't call us.We'll call you -B- Tom Sharples writes: There is another approach to consider - sue them for tortuous interference : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference which has nothing to do with RF interference, but rather refers to intentionally disturbing or destroying your business relationship with your customers. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com To: wa4...@arrl.net; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Oh this business, tell me again why we love it?! Only if over the EIRP of 36dB. One does not even need amps to be over the limit. 23dB -- 17dB panel = 40dB. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Leon D. Zetekoff Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 1:30 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Oh this business, tell me again why we love it?! On 03/27/2010 03:58 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Regarding the competetor, if you can prove that your competetor is intentionally interfering with you, the FCC will actually get involved but it will take a long and painful paper-trail to build a strong enough case. if they are using amps, then the FCC would get involved. leon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2675 - Release Date: 02/08/10 07:35:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Bob Moldashel Lakeland Communications, Inc. 1350 Lincoln Avenue Holbrook, NY 11741 800-479-9195 631-286-8873 Fax 516-551-1131 Cell WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] UBNT Bullet Takes Down Entire Network....... Sigh....
I guess what's important to identify was whether the damage was caused by Ethernet segment or RF segement. If radio went crazy and started generating Ethernet wire traffic or bridge loops or what ever, thats not really a reason to bash the Bullet. Any product could lockup to create a similar situation.I'm just wondering if there is anything specifiic to UBNT's design or software that led to this more problem than another products. I'm not sure that can be concluded. It is a good testimony of why it can be helpful to isolate AP segments of the network, via VLAN or Routing, such as to isolate bridge domains. Can you clarify that it was definately causing the grief via the Ethernet wireside? Apposed to RF, killing RF on all your other APs? In otherwords, was teh problem stopped because the Ubiquiti's power was unplugged? Or because the data pins were disconnected? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:43 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] UBNT Bullet Takes Down Entire Network... Sigh Both. Combination of Mikrotik and UBNT. UBNT bridged and the MT's routed. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Greg Ihnen Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] UBNT Bullet Takes Down Entire Network... Sigh Is your network routed or bridged or a combination? Greg On Mar 27, 2010, at 11:00 AM, Robert West wrote: The main thing that was throwing me is, even when I took the bad AP off line, the rest of the network took a long time to recover. 5 minutes or so and I wasn't waiting that long most of the time to see results, I was in a bit of a hurry so when it didn't settle, I moved onto the next. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:17 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] UBNT Bullet Takes Down Entire Network... Sigh Bridge loop, probably. 100M spitting out on to a backbone that can't handle that much bandwidth. I had a Redline backhaul create a loop and it flooded the traffic through the rest of the network, taking out everything up until the 100M fiber tower at which point I had ~60M to use. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:13 AM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: I'd be curious how you figured out it was THAT unit causing the grief. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 10:06 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] UBNT Bullet Takes Down Entire Network... Sigh Yep. And it went everywhere. Must have got in through the inside of the N connector, that tape was wound pretty tight and I didn't see any water inside the tape. Took the Bullet apart, wasn't much water but the board was moist like condensation. Dried it all out, works fine now. Smeared some RTV sealant on it to make me feel good but man, that was not much fun to ferret out. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 11:01 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] UBNT Bullet Takes Down Entire Network... Sigh So much time spent learning how to deploy cheap Ubnt stuff. Not as bad as MikrotikN but geez. So the antenna full of water caused the bullet to go nuts and caused a packet storm, is that right? On 3/27/10, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: HA! Had lots and lots of rain the other night. At around 2am I get an alarm, everything is losing connection. Everything. EVERYTHING! Started on it at 7am, was everyplace trying to isolate sections, was driving me nuts. Finally, found one Bullet 5M that had a 5GHz stick antenna on it (Was for tech access on AP down on the ground, was a weird fix) and the thing had just enough water in it to cause it blast the network. Water? Well, I'm a freak for taping a waterproofing everything but on this, installer boy (That's his official name) taped it alright but since it was a stick antenna on it, taped the N connector on the bullet and then all the way up to the clamp on the antenna! Hmm.. That seems to cover the DRAIN HOLES on the bottom of the antenna. (We'll have a talk. Another one.) Antenna, of course, full of water. Must have filled up then had enough pressure to seep
[WISPA] IPV6- Was how to compete with $15 DSL
While on the topic of IPv6. Wireless gear does not need to respond directly to IPV6, but it does need to be able to pass IPV6 traffic, to be relevent for the future. The conversion to IPV6 was mandatory for many entities such as Government. A WISP could quickly be left out of opportunity, if they are not able to pass IPv6. So what are WISPs doing about it? What are Manufacturer's doing about it? What about all the many Licensed backhaul transport links? (Trango, Dragonwave, Bridgewave, Saf, etc ) Are WISPs tunneling IPv6 through IPv4 transports, and taking a performance hit? Are manufacturer's bridge gear passing IPv6, since its layer2 (most licensed gear now have Gig port to pass 9600+ packet sizes)? Or are Manufacturer's making firmware updates to deal with it? Its pretty simple to get routers and transit providers to IPv6 compliance. But what about teh wireless gear? Anyone got a plan of attack yet? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Glenn Kelley gl...@hostmedic.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 1:41 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL Comcast once the roll out is complete will be moving 100% to IPV6 - another nice addition of docsis 3 Wish most of the hardware in the WISP environment supported it On Mar 25, 2010, at 1:38 AM, Glenn Kelley wrote: depending on the cmts in place - yes or no for most - yes the fiber is fiber is fiber... to the greatest part docsis 3 allows them to share the channel Now imagine getting a cable modem say with 200MBPS down - 100 up and installing out on a pole somewhere - then bouncing from there to your tower ... voila - WISP made easier ... of course - there are ip considerations - but you get the picture Bob here in Ohio does that w/ the lower level stuff already ;-) I remember working for a large MSO and having a 3COM CMTS (cable modem termination system) that kept crapping out - threw different IOS from a well known provider and competitor - and with a little tweaking - it worked solid for a long long time. While it may be hard in all areas for them to roll it out - for the basic ones - like Columbus, Cincy, Dayton - etc... its a no brainer imho On Mar 25, 2010, at 1:18 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: Does it have reverse compatibility with the old modems and cabling? If it's a software upgrade they'd be dumb not to. If it's a lot of hardware the cost may not justify the update. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Glenn Kelley gl...@hostmedic.com wrote: well - i think they dont for a few reasons... But the point is - they can. for most systems it is a pretty simple update... I am not saying simply sell it at the same price mind you... but ... if they can charge $200 vs $50 - thats a heck of a revenue increase... love the Churchill statement btw :-) On Mar 25, 2010, at 12:45 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: Why do it...? If TWC has customers why upgrade them and give them better speeds? I doubt a significant number of people are switching from TWC to another provider for higher speeds. Why aren't you replacing every one of your 5.7 APs with the pmp430? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:41 AM, Glenn Kelley gl...@hostmedic.com wrote: Time Warner is a nightmare for a number of reasons... They are still running docsis 2 for goodness sake. While Docsis 2 was a great step forward over 1 - running @ 6.4MHz - allowing for some pretty interesting speeds... Docsis 3 is a huge step forward however - and would be a great deal for Time Warner to put into place... In short - Docsis 2 only allows support for 1 channel - thus a throughput of 30.72Mbit/s - where as Docsis 3 allows for multiple channels - and thus allows for each channel to push roughly 38mbps - so - # of channels x 30Mbit/s is absolutely awesome Not sure why they are not pushing this - ... In short - with 4 downstream and 4 upstream channels - Docsis 3 gives 122.88 Mbit/s with 8 channels down and 4 upstream - Docsis 3 gives 343Mbit/s down and 122.88 up Now if Comcast can do it - why cant Time Warner? On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:29 PM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Interesting that Time Warner bursts the residential accounts, their Turbo service started out pretty consistent about 6 months ago with always being 20+mbps. Now its flakey at best. One minute you run a speed test and its 22mbps, next test its 7mbps, all over the board now. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box
Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
Why aren't you replacing every one of your 5.7 APs with the pmp430? I bet a lot of Canopy users will start to self answer that question when they compare the 5750's C/I of 3db to pmp430's C/I of probably 20db. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:45 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL Why do it...? If TWC has customers why upgrade them and give them better speeds? I doubt a significant number of people are switching from TWC to another provider for higher speeds. Why aren't you replacing every one of your 5.7 APs with the pmp430? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:41 AM, Glenn Kelley gl...@hostmedic.com wrote: Time Warner is a nightmare for a number of reasons... They are still running docsis 2 for goodness sake. While Docsis 2 was a great step forward over 1 - running @ 6.4MHz - allowing for some pretty interesting speeds... Docsis 3 is a huge step forward however - and would be a great deal for Time Warner to put into place... In short - Docsis 2 only allows support for 1 channel - thus a throughput of 30.72Mbit/s - where as Docsis 3 allows for multiple channels - and thus allows for each channel to push roughly 38mbps - so - # of channels x 30Mbit/s is absolutely awesome Not sure why they are not pushing this - ... In short - with 4 downstream and 4 upstream channels - Docsis 3 gives 122.88 Mbit/s with 8 channels down and 4 upstream - Docsis 3 gives 343Mbit/s down and 122.88 up Now if Comcast can do it - why cant Time Warner? On Mar 24, 2010, at 11:29 PM, Kurt Fankhauser wrote: Interesting that Time Warner bursts the residential accounts, their Turbo service started out pretty consistent about 6 months ago with always being 20+mbps. Now its flakey at best. One minute you run a speed test and its 22mbps, next test its 7mbps, all over the board now. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL They must. Not just wireless either. My Time Warner Tech says they burst all residential accounts. On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com wrote: I think most of the WISPS that offer 6+ mbps services are bursting for like the first 30 seconds, then they fall back to something like 1.5mbps. I asked myself the same question until I started to think about it, they are bursting, I'm sure of it... Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of MDK Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL Yes, they can, but only a few clients per access point. You cannot do it with 30 clients on an 11A ap. You can if only 2-4 clients are ever busy at the same time. But I'm seeing sustained 2mbit transfers for HOURS to around 20% of my clients. ++ Neofast, Inc, Making internet easy 541-969-8200 509-386-4589 ++ -- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 11:39 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL Mikrotik, StarOS, or UBNT could all deliver those speeds. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:19 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL If so, with what equipment? On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Marco Coelho coelh...@gmail.com wrote: Are you delivering that wireless? mc On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: That's what we did. $24.95/mo gets you 12Mbps/6Mbps. $49.95/ mo gets you 20Mbps/6Mbps. We guarantee minimums--not just an up to speed. A lot of people really like that too. Our packages: www.peakinter.net On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:14 PM, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote: One of the things you have to keep in mind, is that you really do have to offer your customers a decent value for their dollars. 35 Bux for a fraction of a meg is darn steep
Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
There is only one way to make money at $24.95, and that is to stop answering the phone. Setup a fancy website for self help everything. And customer is on their own. I'm all for Self-help as an OPTION, but not as a forced requirement. We all know what I'm talking about all the things consumers complain about that are a repurcussion of $24.95 service. Phones answered by reception level skill sets. Billing disputes that are solved by disconnecting service on teh 2nd of the month, if the consumer didn't pay online regardless of whether there was a valid dispute. The customer down for a week, and nobody at teh provider really knew, and if they did and were called on it, they point to the clause in the Terms and conditions that says 30days. The type of installs, where the Dish gets installed right over the front door, because the installer was to lazy to get his ladder of the truck, and the 1hr allowed for install didn;t allow a more resourceful method to obtain a cosmetic appealing way to get LOS. The self-install that generates 50% packet loss, and degrades the network performance for all, but so what, its a Best Effort, right? Personally, I'll never do business that way. The day I have to be a $24.95 provider, I'll do something else. Some people may think otherwise, and are better at that game than I. Please note... I'm referring to provisioned Fixed Service meant to compete against DSL/cable quality. I'm not talking about HotSpot type Wifi, that can be done profitably at $15/month, because there are different expectations. I just keep thinking of the recent Giant Foods experiment. One of our local stores became the test bed for self check out registers. Instead of having 10 lanes with a person and 2 self check lines, this store actually converted like 10 lanes to self-checkout and 2 with a person. Its a night mare. Soemtimes for fun, I just watch the people going through the self-check and how frustrated they get. Self bagging was OK, but struggling to find the label, and getting that darn beeper to recognize the bar codes, and trying to watch a 3 year old or three at the same time as jumping back and forth between the middle of the line where the scanner is and the back of the lane where the grocery cart unscanned groceries sit and the front of the line where the finished scanned groceries are put, What a night mare. All it did was create these huge lines at the two lanes that actually had a person there. 50% of the stores customers ether started shopping at a different Giant that still employed people, or started going to Safeway accross the street. Its the best example that I've ever seen that has proven people want ease, peice of mind, and service. Or... maybe even the friendly relationship to speak to a person, after being cooped up in the house all day. People dont want to troubleshoot their Internet service anymore than they want to go to the self-checkout lane with a full cart of groceries. And when they want some help, they want one of those special help customer service desks like most Giant's have, they dont want to wait in line. Just my 2 cents. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Reed scottr...@onlyinternet.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL Your question has some of the answer in it. What do you want for ROI (return on investment) timing? The answer to that helps determine installation charge and how much you have to charge per month. RickG wrote: Sure but I'm more curious about the business model for making money at such low prices. UBNT is priced right and certainly helps but it would still be tough to make a profit at only $24.95/month. I havent seen one a financial discusion on the list in a very long time. I though market share models died a long time ago. Are people still out there losing money in the short term in order to make money on the long term? On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: Mikrotik, StarOS, or UBNT could all deliver those speeds. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:19 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL If so, with what equipment? On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Marco Coelho coelh...@gmail.com wrote: Are you delivering that wireless? mc On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: That's what we did. $24.95/mo gets you 12Mbps/6Mbps. $49.95/mo gets you 20Mbps/6Mbps. We guarantee minimums--not just an up to speed. A lot of people really like that too. Our packages: www.peakinter.net On Mon, Mar 15, 2010
Re: [WISPA] POE injector with redundant AC inputs
I dont know of any POEs that have dual AC or DC inputs. But I would pose the question of, Why not just use two POEs connected in parallel at the output?. Then the POE device itself also would have redundancy. With dumb POEs as inexpensive as $6 dollars, it might be a viable option, depending on what you are looking to do. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:56 PM Subject: [WISPA] POE injector with redundant AC inputs Looking for a 48 volt POE injector (either 802.3af or just a dumb injector) that has dual AC power inputs. Dual -48VDC inputs work too. Not finding much of anything at first glance... -- Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Trango 5830 AP going deaf
Overall our Trango APs have lasted very long, been super reliable, more reliable than any other product we have ever used. Many going on 10 years now, without a blip. But, for the few that have failed, one of the commom symptoms is going deaf. It can be hard to troubleshoot because at first, they'll just get lower RSSI for a short period usually at peak Sun/heat time, and get stronger at night. The exact same symptoms occur when there is random noise. The noise resulting in 5-10 db loss, and full strength comes back when noise is gone. So sometimes the only way we know its the radio was to replace the AP, and see if the same problem occurs. Or relocte the AP, and see if it has the same random symptoms. In some cases, the APs go deaf, and CPEs see them with RSSI but cant associate because APs cant hear them. I dont have an exact number, but I know I can count the total failure over 10 years on fingers of one hand, with a finger or two to spare. So it does not happen often. But its one reason I tend not to want to buy used APs. You'd have no way to test if it was flaky before putting it in the field for a while.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gary Garrett ggarr...@nidaho.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 2:32 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango 5830 AP going deaf That is the classic sign of a mid path lightning strike. Kind of like looking at a nuclear explosion with field glasses. It probably hit somewhere closer to the AP than the clients. We had a strike in the middle of a lake... it got the AP and all the clients all around the lake shore, not the Backhaul though because it was a narrow beam pointed up at a mountain not down at the water. That really sucked. On 3/19/2010 2:10 PM, Randy Cosby wrote: Anyone ever seen a Trango 5830 AP go deaf? I have one that was showing RSSI from AP to SU at 10 to 13db higher than SU to AP. Same on all channels, vert or horiz polarity. Cruddy linktests as well. Thought I might have a bad noise problem, but replacing the AP fixed it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] -48vdc Gigabit switch
While on the subject Anyone know why the concept of positive ground was implimented? What was accomplished by not doing negative ground like everything else typically does? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jeremy Parr jeremyp...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] -48vdc Gigabit switch On 18 March 2010 14:48, Cameron Crum cc...@dot11net.com wrote: You could always reverse the leads for a +48 switch or pull 12v or 24v off one or two of the batteries. No no no, *DO NOT* do this! -48vdc, but its very nature, is positive ground. If you plug in a +48vdc device with the polarity reversed it will boot up, and will probably link up via UTP patch cable to another device. If you plug in a STP patch cable, or a console cable with a ground, you will likely let the magic smoke out. Recharging the magic smoke reservoir can be an expensive procedure. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
EXACTLY! Why would new NTIA backhaul be cheaper? People always charge what the market will bare, build cost has nothing to do with it, when there is no competitions to force better pricing. Its a shame NTIA programs were designed to fund monopoly bandwidth build-out into new communities. The only thing that changes is who gets to be the monopoly entity. And even if it was free interconnection, who pays to get transport to one of the interconnection points? I would argue that transport cost would be just as high as buying transit. I personally think the NTIA projects will only accomplish a few goals in the short term1) it sent a warning to scare the Large Incumbants that they'd be wise to try a bit harder. 2) Get Government venues free broadband from reoccuring perspective, if you ignore the Tax dollar investment. 3) Get bandwdith to an area that really didn't have it before, which is a benefit, even if not at a low price. Even the non-profits, I just dont see any motive for them to lower price to anyone. If a player wasn't involved in the Non-profit at grant writing time for the proposal, without investment contributed, I just dont see how they will be given a free ride to get benefit. This is considering that the Non-profits are made up of board that are ISP competitors. Sure there will be some competitive pressure, now having two carriers in town instead of one, but that on its own probably wont be enough for short term benefit, in my opinion. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com To: char...@knownelement.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL In my experience, (1) the problem for rolling out to a new area IS NOT cost of backhaul, it's the cost of the equipment. Sure we all like cheaper backhaul, but it doesn't prevent a roll out to an unserved area. I'm sure there are exceptions to that-but they are going to be very very rare. (2) the prices I'm seeing for the new backhauls from buildouts funded by NTIA are not cheaper than what already exists in an area. Again, I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'm willing to bet they are also rare. As I'm sure you can figure out, I'm not free to disclose which applications I'm familiar with. Chuck On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:17 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote: Citations needed? I have seen many many many posts on this list discussing/complaining about middle mile/back haul issues including access and expense. If the vast majority of wisps have access to sufficient back haul at competive prices then I stand corrected. Do the wisps on this list feel that your back haul needs are being adequately met with existing infestructure? Maybe someone should setup a poll on a website and let wisps vote? Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:00:04 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already have at least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last mile done, not middle mile done. From my direct experience and observation, a lot of the middle mile projects NTIA is funding is really for redundant fiber. Where it isn't redundant it isn't really providing functionality that would help last mile access in the projects I've looked at. Worse, the middle mile projects are NOT being designed intimately with last mile providers. They are going to key community institutions which (1) mostly already have fiber connections and (2) really have no impact on where service is needed for last mile access. Chuck On Mar 16, 2010, at 1:40 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote: This is why I have said that the stimulus dollars need to go to middle milte build outs. Wireless as a last mile medium is very well understood and gives best bang for the buck in a lot of scenarios. Justin Wilson wrote: I think part of the issue is economies of scale. Many rural ISPs have T1s and T3s at best. The cost of transport and bandwidth doesn¹t allow them to scale as well as they could if they had fiber or some other high capacity transport. With providers such as Cogent well under $10 a meg in bulk you can afford to up the speed (providing your network can support it) if you have access to such things. I have seen several providers start offering better speeds once they had access to a bigger pipe. I know in my area a T1 is still around $450 a month. Get 4 bonded t1s and you are looking at $300 a meg. If you had access to fiber and your transport + bandwidth cost you say $75 a meg you could afford to up the subscriber speeds. Just my thoughts. Justin
Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ
Good point, Butch. Well said. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Butch Evans but...@butchevans.com To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] From Today's WSJ On Tue, 2010-03-16 at 13:29 -0600, Scottie Arnett wrote: If they are giving them some form of subsidy to build these networks, then I think we should have access to use it too. This is the wrong way to view it, though. I'm not looking to argue the point, but want to address this in a slightly different way. Let's take an area called ruralville, us. In Ruralville, there is a population of 1000 citizens who earn an average of $22k/year. If there were no high speed options in ruralville, would YOU build a network there? I know I would. Especially if I carried the backhaul in from a larger network. Would you require someone else to pay for the gear, or could you make the numbers work for that area? I know I could make the numbers work. NOW...the question is: If it is feasible to make it work without a subsidy, WHY SHOULD ANYONE GET ONE FOR THAT AREA? In my mind, it's not about if they get one, I want one, too. It is more along the line of if I don't NEED one, neither do they. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://store.wispgear.net/* Wired or Wireless Networks * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * ImageStream, Mikrotik and MORE! * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] High Speed Bridge Link
Bridgewave LTE at $7500 is a good bang for the buck to get acrross the street, and then some, as long as 100mbps is enough. But fiber is still cheaper. Terabeam will get you 1GB for under $10k, to get across the street, but it only supports fiber cabling to it. So you migh spend half the cost to run fiber between buildings, just terminating the Terabeam with fiber. 3-db just posted a great price on SafTechnica for 300mbps, but again, it will still be more expensive than the Fiber. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Kosinet Wireless wirel...@kosinet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:26 AM Subject: [WISPA] High Speed Bridge Link I'm looking for ideas / recommendations. I've got a Client with 2 buildings about 600 feet apart. Currently using Cat5 locked at 10Mbps - It's been working ok, but we need more speed. Fiber is probably the best bang for the buck, but I was wondering if there was anything wireless out there that I could compete with? They got a price of $3k to pull Fiber between buildings. Anything new / revolutionary / cheap?? -Gary- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
Mike, Last month, you mentioned that a ARRA project was approved in your neighborhood, and that you will benefit from it. That was great news to hear. I would be interested in hearing exactly how you will benefit. What pricing they'll be offering, etc. If the project will be a success to help WISPs, we should point it out as a case study on how a project can benefit public, if done correctly. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL Apparently your area's applicant is a jerk. :-p - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:42 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL If I'm being charged $7000/month just to get to Syracuse by this new build out, I can't imagine what they'd charge to go to NYC. Chuck On Mar 17, 2010, at 9:02 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: That is the purpose of a middle mile BTOP grant... to take you from Ithaca, Syracuse, Binghamton, or Rochester to 60 Hudson St. or 111 8th Ave., New York. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 10:31 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL But He.net isn't in Syracuse so that doesn't do me a whole lot of good. They aren't in Binghamton either. Nor are they in Rochester (which is really too far but is the next closest meet point). Chuck On Mar 16, 2010, at 11:21 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote: He.net will do $1 per Meg with 1 gig minimum commit. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:49:09 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL I can't use a gig right now. However, to *get* that gig would cost us $7000/month for a wavelength on one provider's new network. Suddenly the gig that I can't really use isn't cheap at all. The costs for what I *do* use would more than double. Even in the carrier hotels in the bigger cities, bandwidth is not available at $1/Mbps. Most quotes, aside from Cogent's end-of-the-year special, are for about $8/Mbps (though that'd be for 100 Mbps scale purchases, not gig purchases). Chuck On Mar 16, 2010, at 10:32 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: So having a gig transport to $1/megabit transit doesn't deploy access to needed areas? The middle mile could be built wherever. The best middle mile project we could see is a hybrid of fiber and wireless. Mostly fiber with fiber or microwave down to clients. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 9:04 PM To: char...@knownelement.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL In my experience, (1) the problem for rolling out to a new area IS NOT cost of backhaul, it's the cost of the equipment. Sure we all like cheaper backhaul, but it doesn't prevent a roll out to an unserved area. I'm sure there are exceptions to that-but they are going to be very very rare. (2) the prices I'm seeing for the new backhauls from buildouts funded by NTIA are not cheaper than what already exists in an area. Again, I'm sure there are exceptions, but I'm willing to bet they are also rare. As I'm sure you can figure out, I'm not free to disclose which applications I'm familiar with. Chuck On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:17 PM, char...@knownelement.com wrote: Citations needed? I have seen many many many posts on this list discussing/complaining about middle mile/back haul issues including access and expense. If the vast majority of wisps have access to sufficient back haul at competive prices then I stand corrected. Do the wisps on this list feel that your back haul needs are being adequately met with existing infestructure? Maybe someone should setup a poll on a website and let wisps vote? Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.com Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:00:04 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL I think largely the middle mile funds are wasted. Most areas already have at least *some* fiber. The cost, and the problem, is in getting last mile done, not middle mile done. From
Re: [WISPA] NPR Story on FCC Broadband Plan and Internet Access inTrinity County California
I argue that the real problem is that the School staff is not educated on where to look for alternate broadband providers. The school needs to be more resourceful. Surely they should be able to price shop between the 4-5 satelite providers to gain a better price for satelite. 2. Does anyone have experience deploying satellite Internet access? How much does it cost and how reliable is the service? Yes Hughes Satelite performs very poorly. But I'd also argue, how fast does 20 computers for elementary school kids really need to be? 5. What would it cost to deploy a 100 mile microwave link between Corning and Weaverville with a minimum of 50Mbps of bandwidth but preferably 100Mbps I'm sure they could do it for much less than the $50k. or 1Gbps? Yes, there are many variables but assume worst case. In general, would this work and what is ballpark/order of magnitude pricing for this link? Are we talking about $500K, $1M, $5M, $10M or $50M?? Regarding 1 GB, Shouldn't even go there. GB technology is extremely overpriced. And not viable for those distances. So it would be a loosing arguement for the case study. But without a doubt there is absoltuely no reason they'd ever need a GB connection. I barely need a 100mbps connection for my entire network in a major tier 1 market. What is the longest microwave link deployed by Clearwire for backhaul? Not sure I understand the question. Clearwire is not a backhaul provider. They are a last mile Mobile Wimax provider. A big VC funded Clearwire would not be the appropriate company to price compare. What this school needs is a WISP to come out and do an engineering study for them, and get them a quote.. 4. What does not engineered for local feeds mean? Is it possible that the fiber is for a long haul connection and it would be very expensive or impossible to connect Trinity County to the fiber? Is ATT telling the truth, outright lying or lazy? Of course ATT is telling the truth. There is no reason for them to lie about that case. What is also likely true is that infratructure could be modified to reverse that claim, but there is not a large enough revenue proposition to justify modifying infrastructure to enable an interconnection point in that town. Whether its a truth or not, its an outrage that ATT will not try harder to accommodate serving educational venues. Again, a good reason to call a WISP. These stories do not get sympathy from me. I jsut dont believe there are not WISPs that would be willing to assist these communities. These are the types of cases that should be getting teh Feds to understand that what they really need to be doing is creating a fund, to pay WISPs to custom build out solutions to these type problems. We dont need 100 million dollar fiber grants. We need case by case grants to pay WISPs to engineer solutions. I bet that school's $50k would have been much better spent paying a WISP to build out 4 towers and a 100mbps link, and then at the same time, 4 more communities could be served allong the way. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Sylvester t...@avanzarnetworks.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 6:52 PM Subject: [WISPA] NPR Story on FCC Broadband Plan and Internet Access inTrinity County California On Monday, NPR aired a story on the FCC Broadband Plan and Internet access in Trinity County California. The story by Laura Sydell was in anticipation of the FCC Broadband Plan today and profiled Trinity County, a rural county in northern California. You can read/listen to the story at: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124703744 I have a few technical/business questions for the group. The story talks about Brunt Ranch Elementary School with 92 students that paid $50,000 for a satellite Internet connection. The school is not happy with the cost and the connection does not work reliably. The school doesn't have much money and only has 20 computers. Putting aside the questions about who should pay for the connection and why an elementary school needs Internet, here are my questions: 1. What type of satellite Internet connection costs $50,000? 2. Does anyone have experience deploying satellite Internet access? How much does it cost and how reliable is the service? 3. Does anyone have experience with Hughes Networks satellite Internet service? I exchanged e-mail with a Hughes rep and they offer 5Mbps business class Internet service for $399/month using a .98M dish. You can pay $28/month for 7x24 on-site service and $20/month for 5 static IP addresses. The story also talks about ATT fiber that runs through the county but ATT won't connect anyone in the county to the fiber. ATT claims that the fiber is not engineered for local feeds. A local ISP has requested to tap into the fiber to provide Internet access
Re: [WISPA] RIVERSIDE NEEDS YOU
Ironically, NBP still calls for low cost near free networks to be built. Ironically the city wont event take it for free, DUH!!! Looks like they realize that SUPPORT of the network and reoccurring costs of that are the BIG COSTs. What, really, the city doesn't want to run and be responsible for a network that will lose money, based on the model? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:20 PM Subject: [WISPA] RIVERSIDE NEEDS YOU ATT Wants to Dump Riverside Network on City One of the legacy muni-Fi networks will have new (or no) owners: Esme Vos writes at MuniWireless.com about the current state of the Riverside, Calif., network operated by ATT. The network was the first and only bid by ATT with MetroFi, which was unable to complete that network along with many others, and which shut down in 2008. In Riverside, ATT kept up much of its end of the bargain, hiring Nokia Siemens to complete the network, which Vos says only reached 77 percent of the city. (One expects there's no SkyPilot gear left in place, either, but I don't know that for sure.) The network has 20,000 daily users out of a population of about 300,000 (in 2000); the county has over 2.1 million residents. ATT wants to give the city the network at no cost, but the city is facing revenue shortfalls like the rest of the country (and most of the world). It's trying to get a federal grant. Of the networks originally built in part or whole by EarthLink, Kite, and MetroFi, only a handful remain in operation. Philadelphia recently moved to take over the remains of the network there from an interim firm that had been planning to build out a variety of access services. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL
The way to compete with $15 DSL is NOT TO. The day we have to, we might as well pack it up, and hope that we reserved a little bit of time over the previous few years to plan for our second career, after wireless. I'm a firm believer that we are better off trying to increase capacity, than lower price. I am also a firm believer that used equipment has jsut as high a value as new equipment if you own it, and its paid for, and it still works. If equipment can only yield a $15 monthly revenue price, de-isntall it and move it to an area that will yeild a higher monthly price. Although admittedly, with Ubiquiti type/class CPE pricing, its hard to justify de-installing anything, when a new CPE is less expensive than the labor to move old stuff. But if using Non-penetrating mounts, Steel is still expensive, more so than labor. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 11:05 AM Subject: [WISPA] how to compete with $15 DSL Local phone company here just expanded their DSL coverage area and mailed out fliers to everyone for $15 DSL. I see no mention of it being a promotional price. One person said as long as you have it they will not raise the rate from $15. Think its for 768k service. Anyways we are getting about 1 person a day switching from our $35/month/768k wireless service to this DSL. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to retain these customers They are not even giving us a chance to offer them a lower price as they all already have the DSL turned on and been using it for a month before they cancel ours. Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FCC creating policy...
I personally think we need to be taking the same approach as the Telco what do you mean there is a problem, all the broadband anyone needs is there, tthe customer just needs to pick up the phone and call. WISPs are here and can solve the problem. What we need is education programs to make consumers aware of WISP providers and their capabilty. And challenge cosumers to point out applications that they need 100mbps for that WISPs speeds cant solve. We need to point out passing out Free money to large companies isn't going to fix the problem. But helping Small providers to continue delivering Wireless solutions will. I personally think the FEDs should loan guarantee every local WISP's request. Wireless has such a short ROI, there really isn't that much risk in guaranteeing a loan. The entire US's broadband problem could be solved simply by Federal Loan guarantees for SMALL loans to Local providers. And it wouldn't cost the Tax payers a dollar. Consumers are ready to pay the bill, as soon as they get rid of the Pipe dream for something they dont really need (fiber and 100mbps to the home). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 5:37 PM Subject: [WISPA] FCC creating policy... I note with some interest the note published about how these lobbying groups want the FCC to provide broadband at very high speed via policy. There's a nice menu of dreams in the article referenced...There's two kinds of people in the world.. Dreamers and doers. And some of us are a little or a lot of both.You have to dream it before you can do it, or else you are just implementing someone else's dream, which never works all that well.But, to propose dreams to people who can neither do, nor know how to do, but possess too much power already, asking them to wield more... ARRGH! Don't get me started on the vapid stupidity of it all. I note with interest that there are magic bullet prescriptions, such as tearing down the duopoly, etc, etc. The proponents of these often see specific items as the key. Yet, in real life, there isn't a single key, and the answers are a lot more complex than the dreamers like to write. So, in that realm of thought, I'd like to make my own list... Two lists, actually... First, the things that obstruct, and then, the things that could be done to help. I'm writing this as I see it, not intending to speak for all.You may wish to make your own list... But if WISPA is a lobbying organization, then we need a cohesive view of the things that obstruct OUR growth and the things we generally need. First, the obstructions I find... 1. Lack of capital.I have had only a tiny amount of credit for my entire time in business, and I'm not getting more anytime soon. Besides, DEBT isn't going to help. Whether you're buying growth out of profits... or paying debt out of profits... Debt still has to be paid, even when the cash flow has hickups, and I had a real big one about 18 months ago. 2. Public property restrictions.The inability to use public facilities - be it buildings, towers, land - is often a factor.The minimum cost for a USFS site is based on the size of your market (not who you reach, your potential), and it starts out at several times my only paid lease on private land. Cities, counties, states, have entirely inconsistent regulatory frameworks, and just locating who to reach is often a maze. Often local politics throws up barriers, as you could be an outsider to the process. 3. Regulatory fiat: Not just reporting mandates, but threatened neutrality, and other mandates present risks that make future investment harder, as margins get slimmer and costs higher per customer. Regulating your tasks. Like classifying making a network cable as a licensed position, one that requires YEARS of outside of the industry experience, and then hiring someone with a very high price tag, just to do utterly simplistic things with no valid reason to be restricted. 4. Public perceptions:Often, I've seen the only the phone and cable co are REAL broadband providers meme repeated by even my own friends who know what I do. 5. Slow technological change - especially as it concerns regulatory bodies. 6. Spectrum unavailability: Right now, I'm seeing so much noise in some places that no frequency is useable. 7. Spotty availability of hardware: This seems to be related to economic conditions, but it doesn't help, that's for sure. Importing yourself isn't THAT hard, but it's still not easy. 8. The cost of doing business. Everyone wants a chunk of your backside... State, federal, county, local, workman's comp, unemployment, insurance, and the list goes on and on. Whether you're a WISP
Re: [WISPA] The FCC wants service providers to offer home Internet datatransmission speeds of 100 megabits per second
I just put in the order for my 5 new core border routers, capable of pushing about 10Gig. Cost me $1500 each. You gotta love Linux and SuperMicro. :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marco Coelho coelh...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:15 PM Subject: [WISPA] The FCC wants service providers to offer home Internet datatransmission speeds of 100 megabits per second http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20100216/fcc-to-propose-faster-broadband-speeds.htm But in reality. I just spent 140K (list) today on a new border router to handle the multi gig pipes we are bringing in. This was needed to allow us to service our PRESENT bandwidth requirements. Makes me wonder what they are smoking in DC? -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Found Great VLAN switch
There was recently a thread on recommended VLAN switches. Such as which did both TXRX simultaneous port mirroring, Full VLAN support, Ability to LABEL ports, etc. I found out that DELL powerconnec thas the solution that does it all for GIGABIT (24Gig + 4SFP). The model 5424 is the current version, that also support IPv6, QinQ, MSTP,SNMP3. (On sale for $600 The old model 5324 also does it all, but with only IPv4, RSTP, and SNMP2. The 802.11Q VLAN implementation is complete and full.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 11Ghz BH comparison-
Regarding Saf technika All-ODU, thought it was interesting to note the following from the spec sheet a.. Jumbo frame size supports up to 9728 bytes, which allows using longer header info (VLAN, MPLS) and transmitting more useful content and less headers, thus gaining on total throughput. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 11Ghz BH comparison-
had to revise my methodology, (or inject specific brand switches inline to avoid the incompatibilty). Dragonwave comes in many different configurations, whether its A MIL conn, 1 port versus two, with fiber option or not, etc, so it can be more confusing selecting the right part number. With Trango its one model that can be used for any of its various user configurations. There will be some that analyze the Firmware features to death, and will swear to teh advantages of one Brand over the other becaues of how that advanced feature works. But to me, none of that really matters. They are both are extremely capable and mature products, where to me it comes down to teh link budget, and the total cost to acheive that, after considering all above that I mentioned. It might also be afactor of whether you want to have the distribution channel in the loop or not. Distributors often ease with replacement parts availabilty, leasing programs, and License processing. Dragonwave offers that. IF you dont need that, efficiencies can be acheived because you work direct with Trango's fine staff. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com To: lp...@essex1.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 11Ghz BH comparison- The one I have up works fine. There are quirks in the firmware, but no show-stoppers. Inband management is still a work in progress. Don't particularly care for the fiber port cover design, but if you're using copper, it's fine (unless you use extra-large / heavy ethernet that may not fit). Randy On 2/11/2010 4:28 PM, Luke Pack wrote: We have quite a few Dragon wave 11Ghz links deployed right now. We are looking at another path of 11Ghz now and have come across the apex system by Trango. We use the Trangolink45s on many links off the licensed path currently. I'm looking for people's real-world experience with the Trango Apex system (since they are relatively new) and a contrast of this system to the Horizon Compacts from Dragonwave. I know their implementation is similar to that of the horizon units however, what seems to be the Apex failure rate, software features, hitless adaptive modulation success, etc. Thanks all! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A. Maxwell WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 11Ghz BH comparison-
I second 3-db as a good supplier. The Saf Technika looked real promising. But it should be noted that many of the third party Split Architecture brands are limited to less output power than both Trango Giga and Dragonwave HP versions. Many of them are sub 15dbm at full modulation, but obviously that should be confirmed for the manufacturer product that is being considered. That may or may not be relevent for the job's link budget. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 1:04 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 11Ghz BH comparison- Tehnika. I also would have to suggest 3db. You just turn to them when you need something and you get it. On 2/12/10, Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com wrote: Luke, You might also want to take a look at the SAF Teknica (sp?) 11Ghz links. I think there are a couple distributors who sell them now, including 3-db.net. They are very big in Europe and many other countries, and I believe a couple people on the list have some and are quite happy with them. If I recall correctly, 3-db was also offering some extended warranties on them that were pretty crazy good. Ligowave has a new 11ghz unit out too, their second attempt in the licensed space. They are split-units though, and I'll be waiting until I hear from other guinea pigs before I order one. I was disappointed last time around when they didn't ship after waiting way too long. Randy On 2/11/2010 4:28 PM, Luke Pack wrote: We have quite a few Dragon wave 11Ghz links deployed right now. We are looking at another path of 11Ghz now and have come across the apex system by Trango. We use the Trangolink45s on many links off the licensed path currently. I'm looking for people's real-world experience with the Trango Apex system (since they are relatively new) and a contrast of this system to the Horizon Compacts from Dragonwave. I know their implementation is similar to that of the horizon units however, what seems to be the Apex failure rate, software features, hitless adaptive modulation success, etc. Thanks all! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A. Maxwell WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 11Ghz BH comparison-
He said, Dragonwave did it right by having both ports next to one another and on a plane of the unit that is free and clear of obstruction. Unless you are mounting to a pre-existing wall mount mast that is very short depth from the wall, and radio below roof line. In that situation, Trango fit beautifully, and Dragonwave didn't. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Steven G McGehee stev...@qx.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 11Ghz BH comparison- I agree with Randy, definitely some quirks in the firmware, although I've been told by them that v1.23 is in the works. In terms of actual performance, assuming a solid deployment, etc., the Apexes work great. We have several DW in 11Ghz as well, which in comparison have given us zero problem. But, the Apexes are a lot cheaper and if they didn't have a quirky firmware and some hardware design issues, I'd come extremely close to considering them as solid as a Dragonwave. ..and by hardware design issues, I just really disliked the placement of the ports. If you're running direct power or using fiber, the ports are a real pain to get to. They're covered up by the same grommet/weathering as the Atlas/T-Link45 bridges, but the spacing is /really/ tight to try to get anything larger than a 16 awg power cable in, much less that and fiber. It uses the same type of molex power-plug that the Bridgewaves do, but it's much harder to get plugged in. Additionally, the Data and Management (copper) ports are at a 90 degree angle to one another on the actual unit, so one faces down, and the other faces left or right, depending on how you have it attached to the antenna. How you rotate the Apex determines its polarity (like a BW, etc), but due to the hardware design and having a port facing left or right, this means that it's impossible to plug into said port when you're mounting it in such a way that this port faces your mast, because the weathering piece (same type as the DWs come with) is too large. Dragonwave did it right by having both ports next to one another and on a plane of the unit that is free and clear of obstruction. Hope that helps -- bottomline, these work great but they still do need some important firmware tweaks and can be a pain during install. If you can get by with that, give them a serious look. Overall, we've been happy with our 4 pairs. Thanks. Randy Cosby wrote: The one I have up works fine. There are quirks in the firmware, but no show-stoppers. Inband management is still a work in progress. Don't particularly care for the fiber port cover design, but if you're using copper, it's fine (unless you use extra-large / heavy ethernet that may not fit). Randy On 2/11/2010 4:28 PM, Luke Pack wrote: We have quite a few Dragon wave 11Ghz links deployed right now. We are looking at another path of 11Ghz now and have come across the apex system by Trango. We use the Trangolink45s on many links off the licensed path currently. I'm looking for people's real-world experience with the Trango Apex system (since they are relatively new) and a contrast of this system to the Horizon Compacts from Dragonwave. I know their implementation is similar to that of the horizon units however, what seems to be the Apex failure rate, software features, hitless adaptive modulation success, etc. Thanks all! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Google to build ultra-fast broadband networks
I'd say, the press release is not in line with Google's Business model. Google is in the business of collecting revenue, without costs, considering they mooch off others' broadband networks without paying for access to it. It will be interesting to see what Google Execs will think of the project a year down the road, where they incur all the costs and no revenue. I dont see the project being popular amoungst management. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Google to build ultra-fast broadband networks The same way they have made money from the beginning. Giving it all away for free!!! At least on the front end of things.. Google makes money in reverse and LOTS of it. Trust me, my man, Google is no brainless bunch. There is a lot of money in Free. I'm sure they have an angle to make the big bucks off of it and at the same time presenting themselves as the benevolent Google that is adored by everyone worldwide. Well, except maybe the Chinese who Google censored. Oh, and possibly the rest of the world including the US if Google teams up with the NSA as last reported.. But still, just a bunch of friendly helpful guys out to give it all away for free! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marco Coelho Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Google to build ultra-fast broadband networks Google to build ultra-fast broadband networks WASHINGTON - Google plans to build experimental, ultra-fast Internet networks in a handful of communities around the country. The search company said Wednesday that its fiber-optic broadband networks will deliver speeds of 1 gigabit per second to as many as 500,000 Americans. Google Inc. says those systems will be more than 100 times faster than the networks that most Americans have access to today. In a blog post, the company said the networks will let consumers download a high-definition, full-length feature film in less than five minutes and allow rural health clinics to send 3-D medical images over the Web. Google says it will seek input from communities that might be interested in getting one of the testbed networks. end of article http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100210/ap_on_hi_te/us_tec_google_broadband_netw ork sounds very dot commy to me: Best price on a 1G pipe is about 1K-5K within a NOC. I wonder how you make money giving it away? -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Google to build ultra-fast broadband networks
Mike, Although, I see what you were getting at, your logic is flawed. The reason is that Google is colocation, and has a very low cost to connect to other ISPs. Google is basically buying a patch cable. Transporting an End user on the other hand has a much larger cost because it has to be transported all the way to the Colo center. These dynamaics have absolutely nothing to do with Google being better at it. I can negotiate near just as good rates in a colo as they can. The factor here is that trading lastmile+middle mile cost for colo-firstmile cost is not a fair trade. This is why peering started to endorse the concept of Push versus Pull traffic. Pull traffic was more in line with typical usage and assoicated with the higher lastmile/middle mile transport and therefore The push provider pays the pull provider. In the actual colocations center If Google connects to a peer switch, and I (my WISP) connect to the peer switch, and we both pay for our own connection, in that particular case your logic would hold. Push and Pull traffic would have equal value, because they were equal spec. The arguement that some people make that End Users already pay the ISP last mile cost is also flawed, but that is a different debate, with different arguements, and I'm not going there in this Email. The facts are Google has created a value to consumers that consumers expect to recieve, and that every ISP has no choce but to allow that content through. As a result, Google gets away with not getting charged the full cost they should. We can also look at it another way... Let hypothetically assume broadband cost each incurred was an equal even trade, and lets just look at sales... Why does Google deserve the right to profit from my subscriber, but yet me not be able to profit from their sales to my subscribers? Google even acknowledges this. Its one of hte reasons taht they came up with Adsense. It was an attempt to compensate ISPs for their contribution to the successful revenue generation. Google paying to access the Internet, does not constitute payment to me to use my network. I am not against Google. They provided a better revenue program than other search engines. And their recognition of the need to compensate other parties, I beleive heavilly led to their success in the earlier days. It was the Independant ISPs that helped promote Google, over the less sharing Microsoft and Yahoo search options. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Google to build ultra-fast broadband networks I love how everyone thinks the content people are mooching. You go to the other side of the fence and we're mooching off of them. They negotiate their bandwidth, we negotiate ours. They're just better at it. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 12:46 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Google to build ultra-fast broadband networks I'd say, the press release is not in line with Google's Business model. Google is in the business of collecting revenue, without costs, considering they mooch off others' broadband networks without paying for access to it. It will be interesting to see what Google Execs will think of the project a year down the road, where they incur all the costs and no revenue. I dont see the project being popular amoungst management. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Google to build ultra-fast broadband networks The same way they have made money from the beginning. Giving it all away for free!!! At least on the front end of things.. Google makes money in reverse and LOTS of it. Trust me, my man, Google is no brainless bunch. There is a lot of money in Free. I'm sure they have an angle to make the big bucks off of it and at the same time presenting themselves as the benevolent Google that is adored by everyone worldwide. Well, except maybe the Chinese who Google censored. Oh, and possibly the rest of the world including the US if Google teams up with the NSA as last reported.. But still, just a bunch of friendly helpful guys out to give it all away for free! Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marco Coelho Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 1:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Google
Re: [WISPA] FBI wants records kept of Web sites visited | Politics andLaw - CNET News
a survey of state computer crime investigators found them to be nearly unanimous in supporting the idea. Really? What an idiot, of course they are. They dont pay for it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy mmce...@accubak.com To: Principal WISPA Member List w...@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:07 PM Subject: [WISPA] FBI wants records kept of Web sites visited | Politics andLaw - CNET News http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10448060-38.html?tag=nl.e404 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 802.11n Beam Forming
There are other products that do Beam forming, just not 802.11n. For example... SkyPilot was one of the first. Or Vivato (now defunct) or possibly Navini. The exciting part about BeamForming is that it falls under the newer FCC rules that allowed transmission at 8dbi higher EIRP power (44dbi), than the standard allowable 36db EIRP in some bands. With all the talk about needing Higher Power in Rural America and such, I never understood why more vendors didn't embrace smart antenna technologies and the legal allowable power that it facilitated. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Greg os10ru...@gmail.com To: r...@ashtonbrooke.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 802.11n Beam Forming Mr. Brough, Thank you so much for taking the time to write a detailed response. Before I wrote my question to the forum I Googled 802.11n beam forming and only got this hit http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Celeno+Announces+2nd+Generation+CL1800+Beam+Forming+802.11n+Chipset+-...-a0215916941of another company besides Ruckus that is working on bringing beam forming to market. I wonder if the outdoor AP technology will ever get to the point where beam forming will be put to use. It seems like it would help with frequency reuse if AP's could steer their nulls towards competing AP's and steer their radiated power towards specific customers and away from competing AP's. I think that would be even better than GPS sync since I assume GPS sync works by doing TDM - each AP gets a time slot. Is that right? Or does GPS sync do it's magic by having all AP's transmit at the same time and listen at the same time? Greg On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Brough Turner r...@ashtonbrooke.com wrote: Greg, At this moment, I think Ruckus is it. As yet, there's been no silicon support for beamforming under 11n. The one silicon vendor that's been vocal about beamforming is a startup, Quantenna Communications. They claim to have a chip that provides both 4x4 MIMO and beamforming, and claim it's in production. They recently announced that Netgear has signed up to use their chips (http://www.quantenna.com/pressrelease-01_05_10.html), but so far no news of what Netgear products might show up, or when. Lacking silicon support for beamforming, Ruckus does beamforming by antenna selection. They have an array of 12 antenna elements, a set of switches and presumably some switchable delays. They claim this gives them a choice of 4095 distinct antenna patterns. Antenna selections in this case means they pick which two of the 4095 distinct beams to use, on a packet by packet basis. They then connect those two configurations to the two inputs of a standard Atheros 11n 2x2 MIMO chip. I can't guess what we'll see for silicon based beamforming in the next 24 months (beyond the Quantenna chips), but I am optimistic that all silicon vendors will be driven to do full beamforming in silicon, eventually. The reason is residential Wi-Fi in apartment buildings (think of all those 30 story apartment buildings in Hong Kong and Beijing). When every apartment has an access point, you need directional to avoid interference from your neighbors. I'm sure the VCs that invested in Quantenna expect to sell out to whichever mainstream Wi-Fi chip vendor doesn't get their beamforming working in time. I'm just not sure of time frames. Thanks, Brough Skype: brough Mobile: +1 617 285 0433 http://blogs.broughturner.com On 2/7/10 6:41 AM, Greg wrote: Though the 802.11n specification details beam forming it appears the only manufacturer to explicitly market their product as doing beam forming is Ruckus. Does anyone know if other manufacturer's products with multiple antennas do any kind of beam forming, or do the offerings of other manufacturers with multiple antennas merely use one antenna or the other at any given instant. I understand that Ruckus' product is highly specialized in the antenna/beam forming aspect and has a very involved antenna array and control system, but still the other manufacturer's products with only two simple rubber duckies could still do some pattern shaping if the phasing of the two antennas is varied, not as effectively as the Ruckus products of course, but it would offer some improvement as far as gain and especially multipath/interference rejection. Greg WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Thanks, Brough
Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show
I personally like central shows because less travel time and less time zone change for all America attending. As well, this even is targeted as a RURAL conference, and might make sense for it to be closer to more Rural market. I'd argue there are more Rural locations in the Western States. But Orlando is one of the lowest cost venue places for shows in a major market (after considering all extra costs) and Flights are always pretty cheap, even from the west coast. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show Tickets to Orlando for me are dirt cheap. Always have been. From KY to Orlando for the FISPA conference next month it's only $222 roundtrip. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jayson Baker Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show You're wanting to go on a family vacation? I thought this was to be a WISP conference. Like, for WISP operators. I, personally, have no intention of spending that much for airline tickets, and going to play with Mickey Mouse while I'm at a conference. On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 6:44 AM, Dylan Bouterse dy...@corp.power1.comwrote: Orlando! We have the 4 Disney parks, Universal Studios, Blue Men, Sea World, I-Drive area, Kissimmee area and a WHOLE lot more. I'm not aware of any zip lines though. :oP Dylan -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:29 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show Phoenix. Dry and warm. *OR* I live 5 minutes up the hill from a world class casino and hotel complex. http://www.meskwaki.com/ I could host, and you could take turns climbing my towers, and riding the zip lines here at Gilly Hollow. One of them is a terror at 750 feet. Mike -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:18 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show I'm the same. If Vegas, I'd pass. Having shows in Vegas isn't about the show, it's about Vegas. The show is just the vehicle to use to get there. A show in Vegas has become a cliché. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Kelley Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show I was just in Vegas for the Ubiquity meeting If you are planning to take your family anywhere - VEGAS is not the place - IMHO When you get off the plane and exit the airport you are handed pamphlets for prostitutes to come to your hotel room from $25/ hr Having 3 daughters and 1 son ... I can tell you - this is hardly the place I would like to take my family on vacation. Disney sounds better ;-) Of course this is all business - - going out to Columbus, Philadelphia, Indy, Chicago, Denver - yeah - much nicer... _ Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. On Feb 4, 2010, at 11:23 AM, Randy Cosby wrote: Next time, drive up to Mesquite (1.25 hours) or St. George - Great rooms / prices you can feel good about taking the family to. :) Randy On 2/4/2010 9:12 AM, Eje Gustafsson wrote: *shudder* Reminds me of WISPCon in Vegas. The WISPCon hotel screwed up my families reserveration. Roadeo show in town and one other large conference. There was not a hotel room in entire Vegas, Henderson or anywhere close enough to drive to. Got to the hotel around 7pm to find out there was no available room for us. We called probably 100 different places and visited probably another 40+ places, pleading and begging for a room. We didn't even find any rooms at the ones that only rented per week. Me, my wife, one baby and one toddler. Finally about 2:30am we gave up and ended up sleeping in our rental minivan on the parking lot. In the middle of the night by accident set of the car alarm. Got kicked off the lot by the Casino security guards. Dumb ass suggested we drive downtown and take in on a hotel that charge by the hour. Yeah exactly the place I want to take 2 small children.. Parking the car on a street and sleeping
[WISPA] Looking for Orlando WISP
I'm looking for an Orlando WISP to help with Broadband for an event in early march. If interested Email me today with your contact info, and I'll get back to you within 24hours. This will be for a high capacity link for a day or two, and provided on a wholesale basis. I normally fly out and do these for a pre-defined rate. But I have a date conflict, and would prefer to refer it to a local, if compeitive. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Dylan Bouterse dy...@corp.power1.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show I live in Orlando so no, I'm not planning a family vacation but Orlando is one of the more popular conference spots in the US due to it's tourism industry. It may not be for everybody, but having the option of doing business/pleasure in one trip is attractive to some. Sorry if you took offense. Dylan -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jayson Baker Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show You're wanting to go on a family vacation? I thought this was to be a WISP conference. Like, for WISP operators. I, personally, have no intention of spending that much for airline tickets, and going to play with Mickey Mouse while I'm at a conference. On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 6:44 AM, Dylan Bouterse dy...@corp.power1.comwrote: Orlando! We have the 4 Disney parks, Universal Studios, Blue Men, Sea World, I-Drive area, Kissimmee area and a WHOLE lot more. I'm not aware of any zip lines though. :oP Dylan -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:29 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show Phoenix. Dry and warm. *OR* I live 5 minutes up the hill from a world class casino and hotel complex. http://www.meskwaki.com/ I could host, and you could take turns climbing my towers, and riding the zip lines here at Gilly Hollow. One of them is a terror at 750 feet. Mike -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:18 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show I'm the same. If Vegas, I'd pass. Having shows in Vegas isn't about the show, it's about Vegas. The show is just the vehicle to use to get there. A show in Vegas has become a cliché. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Kelley Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Wispashow] Decision on WISPA Show I was just in Vegas for the Ubiquity meeting If you are planning to take your family anywhere - VEGAS is not the place - IMHO When you get off the plane and exit the airport you are handed pamphlets for prostitutes to come to your hotel room from $25/ hr Having 3 daughters and 1 son ... I can tell you - this is hardly the place I would like to take my family on vacation. Disney sounds better ;-) Of course this is all business - - going out to Columbus, Philadelphia, Indy, Chicago, Denver - yeah - much nicer... _ Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. On Feb 4, 2010, at 11:23 AM, Randy Cosby wrote: Next time, drive up to Mesquite (1.25 hours) or St. George - Great rooms / prices you can feel good about taking the family to. :) Randy On 2/4/2010 9:12 AM, Eje Gustafsson wrote: *shudder* Reminds me of WISPCon in Vegas. The WISPCon hotel screwed up my families reserveration. Roadeo show in town and one other large conference. There was not a hotel room in entire Vegas, Henderson or anywhere close enough to drive to. Got to the hotel around 7pm to find out there was no available room for us. We called probably 100 different places and visited probably another 40+ places, pleading and begging for a room. We didn't even find any rooms at the ones that only rented per week. Me, my wife, one baby and one toddler. Finally about 2:30am we gave up and ended up sleeping in our rental minivan on the parking lot. In the middle of the night by accident set of the car alarm. Got kicked off the lot by the Casino security guards. Dumb ass suggested we drive downtown and take in on a hotel that charge by the hour. Yeah exactly the place I want to take 2 small children.. Parking the car on a street and sleeping
Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulationof net-neutrality
The government has done all it can to push the idea that if you rent - your a failure How is that a bad thing? Financial Stability 101, go buy a home. Every family should have a home. I'm not critisizing people who have decided renting is better for them, there can be many reasons for that. But if owning a home is not something possible for the average American, and low income person, its a sad situation. Let's face it - Loans were written to people that made minimum wage - much like the first Credit card I was given with a 20K limit as a freshman in college without a job. What planet do you live on? As the minimum wage HomeOwner drives away from their foreclosed home in their BMW I can tell in my 20 years of homebuying, Minimum Wage buyers was never an option. Sure FHA or HOC type programs might have enabled getting into a home with less money down, or subsidized homeownership for needy single parents and such. But those aren't the loans getting foreclosed on. The government made those home afffordable, even in down economies. But the minimum wage claim is rediculous. Heck, I cant even qualify for a Home Refinance, and I'm bringing home the 6 digits. The homes getting foreclosed on are the big dollar home that were more expensive than the buyer can afford with an average paying job. Getting into those homes were not minimum wage application processes. They were the show me the 2 years a Tax Returns with 6 figured. Homes that are getting foreclosed on are the Elderly. Homes that are 50-80% paid off. Where the homeowner can no longer access teh equity, because they are looked at a credit risk, because of their age or no longer holds full time job living on retirement income. Where a spouse has died, or where they were living on retirement income. Where their County property Tax skyrocketed, as neighbor's appraisals skyrocketed in the reaslestate boom, to an amount where the Tax payment was more than their original mortgage payment used to be. The problem was never low income buyers. The problem was the real Estate book reached a record high that had no alternative but to crash. Supply and Demand became so power full that homes reached price tags that only millionaires could afford, and loans were sneaked through anyway. But the new mortgage loan rules are rediculously conservative. It was the unscrupulous lenders that caused the crash, and now honorable prospective American home buyers have to pay the penalty. I can give you an example of one person, that had 75k in the bank, Had 50% equity in their home, a Fixed income from a government pension, Never missed a payment in 20 years, even had a credit score in the 700s, and was denied refinance because they couldn't prove a high enough steady income the year before. They want to see a salaried job. They want to see historical Tax returns. If someone is self employed, and does smart accounting to reduce their income and tax liabilty, it will likely mean they will no longer qualify for home ownership. In the case above the person was a land developer, and didn't sell a home the prior year because it made sense to hold on to the land until the market picks up to get a larger return. The fact is the Government should continue making it easier to obtain homes. They just need to tighten up on fraud. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Glenn Kelley gl...@hostmedic.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 3:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulationof net-neutrality Having pastored in the nations poorest city I would far from disagree with you. Folks that should have never been able to have a home were given the ability to obtain loans - That is an understatement. The government has done all it can to push the idea that if you rent - your a failure They have made it all to easy for folks to own a home -never even bothering to figure out if its a worthy cause. Let's face it - Loans were written to people that made minimum wage - much like the first Credit card I was given with a 20K limit as a freshman in college without a job. Perhaps we should take a step back and simply ask - Instead of Frannie and Freddy - perhaps The Government does not belong in the home ownership game. If you look at the price of the average home since 1890 until today - you will find that it appears at first to be a great investment. However - if you adjust that thinking with the rate of inflation - you would realize that for many - it is far from the American Dream... The Saga of Home ownership and real estate is really one of a relatively flat history - except for the past few years where folks were able to flip before the drop... (2006-2007) Many people utilize their home as the ultimate credit card... They get locked into this pattern of either mortgaging to pay
Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role inregulationof net-neutrality
Unemployment stats are also misleading. For example, Many people had high dollar jobs when they qualified for their homes, then lot them. They then tppk jobs at half the salary because that is what they could find. UNemployment stats dont show that people are Employed but working in job at half their normal salary. The people are now caught up in mortgages that are more than they can afford, because their economic position changed. Then there was no way out of the situation. What do you do when the market is down and no one will buy your home that you can NO LONGER afford, but once could? I just dont believe that the reason for home market crashing isbecause the government was bad amd the Homeowners were not worthy enough financially to be homeowners at the time they bought their homes. It is extremely short sighted to think otherwise. The problem primarilly lied with Middle Class borrowers, NOT low income borrowers. Again, the results wont adequately show that because the MiIddle Class got a bailout from the Government, and the Super Rich got a Bailout from the government, but little ol low income was left on their own to fight off the wolves. One of the Largest tragedies of the ARRA efforts is that the people that need the help the most have been ignored. Its ironic when the government programs are helping people get rock bottom rates that can already can afford to pay their mortgages and had reasonable rates, but yet people that are struggling, and potentially could continue paying their mortgage if they had the opportunity to reduced their loan shark rates down to reasonable lower interest rate, dont get the opportuity. Its a crock. The Government isn't doing enough. They are failing Homeowners, in similar ways that they are failing to assist small ISPs. They label them financially unworthy to give help to. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick jeffl...@comcast.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role inregulationof net-neutrality That's just not accurate Tom. The Community Reinvestment Act required lenders to do a lot of this stuff and then Fannie and Freddie created the market for the paper. Regards, Jeff Jeff Broadwick ImageStream 800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can) +1 574-935-8484 x106 (Int'l) -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 2:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulationof net-neutrality Brad, People are losing their homes.many of which never should have been afforded the privilege of home ownership if it were not for big government forcing lenders to lend to unqualified buyers. You had me, until the above paragraph. That is a crock of ShXX. Most housing foreclosures are conscious business decissions by the middle class, to improve their finance and cash flow. They ask, Is it worth continuing to sink money into this bad investment losing money? I will say that there are a shortage of buyer. So when an investor cant offload their losing investment (House) to someone else, they resort to less ethical choices. What does someone do if their house jsut lost 50k in value? IF they go to foreclosure, they can pretty much live rent free for a year in their home, before they are forced out. If they put their rent check in hidden savings instead, they earn 50k that year. That combined with gettting out of a loan taht is valued at mor ethan the house, it is a net $100k earning, for doing nothing. They learn they can earn more losing their home than some people do holding on to their home as an investment to resale. And governments were not the ones forcing lenders to lend. Its the opposite Government regulation is unnecessarilly setting regulations to make buying harder for consumers, to address a problem that didn't exist. Some People loose homes because a home is a 30 year commitment, and its hard for anyone to predict how one's life will pan out every year for 30 years. All it takes is one bad year, and there goes the house. People loose houses because they loose jobs. People loose houses because most personal debt is secured by their house, and loosing the house is the easiest way to get rid of the other debt. People lose houses because they cant live within their mean in other areas of their life. Or because they set their sights to high. But the biggest reason people default, is because they develop a sense of satisfaction or entitlement in screwing their lender when they feel they were taken advantage of by their lendor. Even with Bankruptcy, there are some interesing stats, for example, almost all people
Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC'srolein regulationof net-neutrality
The people losing their homes put themselves in that position. So what if they home is devalued %50 now. You signed and made the deal, live with it. Exactly. Thats a failure of this generation's American people and their values, not a failure of the Government. And its not just a failure of the borrower. For example, Its also a failure of revolving credit vendors, that change the deal mid-stream, after the money is borrowed. And what about those buyers that got construction loans at high Interest, that mutually agreed with their lenders that they'd adjust to a permanent low interest mortgage after contruction was complete? And then prior to the conversion, the Feds changed the mortgage lending qualifing rules? And the buyer was no longer able to qualify to convert their contruction loan to a regular low interest loan. And absolutely nothing changed about the home owner/building themself. But my point here is that things dont only occur because people are irresponsible. Sometimes unforseen situation occur and condidtions change. I think its unreasonable to assume that people will always be able to predict the future. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC'srolein regulationof net-neutrality When I look at these things I think about they way my grandparents did things. That was when there was still some moral and ethical standards in place. The people losing their homes put themselves in that position. So what if they home is devalued %50 now. You signed and made the deal, live with it. That is what our grandparents did. It's no different than gambling. Don't pay your gambling debts and see what happens when you get it beat out of you by Bruno. Do not go around asking handouts from me and the taxes I pay in. You say you lost your job? Find another one. Then you say, but it doesn't pay half of what my former job did. Then get two! Our grandparents worked 16 or more hours a day if that is what it took to pay the bills. Many people will not LOWER their job standards and standards of living when they can find an easy way out. They are many jobs out there being done by illegal immigrants that are low paying for the simple reason that many Americans will not do them because of the pay. If that is what it takes to pay the bills, they should be doing them. Our grandparents would help out people in their community that were losing a home if a family had an unfortunate accident that prevented one or the other from working, or took the life of one of the providers. If you told them you were losing your home because you lost your job and will not take one paying a $1(a lot back then) less, then they would laugh at you. My dad quit school to help in the saw mill in 8th grade after my grandfather cut some fingers off. It was what had to be done to keep paying the bills. He has done well for himself without the high school education. I am not going to go into the political side, but what this country needs more than anything IMHO is the moral and ethical standards that were in this country 50 to 60 years ago. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 08:10:05 -0600 Thank you Jeff. You beat me to it! Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 8:05 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulationof net-neutrality That's just not accurate Tom. The Community Reinvestment Act required lenders to do a lot of this stuff and then Fannie and Freddie created the market for the paper. Regards, Jeff Jeff Broadwick ImageStream 800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can) +1 574-935-8484 x106 (Int'l) -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 2:19 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulationof net-neutrality Brad, People are losing their homes.many of which never should have been afforded the privilege of home ownership if it were not for big government forcing lenders to lend to unqualified buyers. You had me, until the above paragraph. That is a crock of ShXX. Most housing foreclosures are conscious business decissions by the middle class, to improve their finance and cash flow. They ask, Is it worth continuing to sink money into this bad investment losing money? I will say that there are a shortage of buyer. So when an investor
Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation ofnet-neutrality
Matt, Well said. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation ofnet-neutrality On Feb 5, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Chuck Bartosch wrote: That statement completely ignores history. The tendency of any unconstrained capitalist is to form a monopoly. Hell, *I'd* do it if I could ;-). And unconstrained capitalism that achieves a monopoly rarely acts in its customers own best interests. If nothing else, it's in our society's interest to prevent monopolies because innovation stagnates in a monoploy situation. It should be every capitalist desire to become a monopolist. The government's role should be to encourage businesses to innovate and grow towards being a monopoly while hoping the market has sufficient competition to stop that ultimate result. If not, then step in to prevent the monopoly from abusing its position. The government must only set the rules of the game and ensure market fairness through their rules. The government shouldn't participate in the market either with its own entity or by picking winners and losers through its actions. -Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Temporarily replace Atlas 5010 with Ubiquity Bullet
Well, admittedly Tlinks dont have a very high PPS either. Do I think Bullet will work out? Sure... For a little while. But can you trust it to stay that way? Probably not. I wouldn't. Not with that super low price Trango Promo until Feb 15th. Tlink gets you... Interference scanner, Layer2 speed packet loss test, a rocksolid core that will hold up over time in heat and cold. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Jenkins m...@smarterbroadband.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 12:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Temporarily replace Atlas 5010 with Ubiquity Bullet It will depend on how many packets per second it was passing. The bullets can do a lot of throughput but start having issues with more than 7-8k pps. Jerry Richardson wrote: Atlas link went down AGAIN! Probably my fault this time but have no spare. I have a pair of the Bullet that I could slap in there to get through the weekend. Think it will work out? The Trangos were passing ~25Mbps of traffic aggregate. [cid:image001.gif@01CAA63F.65692320] Broadband for Business Public and Private WiFi Jerry Richardson VP Operations 925-260-4119 x2 Websitehttp://www.aircloud.com/ Bloghttp://weblog.aircloud.com/ Twitterhttp://www.twitter.com/aircloudbband LinkedInhttp://www.linkedin.com/pub/jerry-richardson/6/372/354 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC'srole inregulationof net-neutrality
Brad, Although I understand your valid point that you are pointing out I disagree. You are assuming incorrectly that homeowners and small WISPs are looking to the Government to hold their hand to solve their problems. for example, I've done it on my own, and rose to the occation, I pay my bills even though I'm getting ripped off, and I honor my agreements. Becaue I've been left to fend for myself, I have become stronger for it. But what I was previously saying is that there is a double standard and not fair equal treatment to all, by the government, or from lenders. Why should a middle class or more wealthy individual get help, but not someone in a more vulnerable position that could use the help? Expecially when that help could translate to public good. Sometimes when people get help they apply that help to enabling them to be a better contributor to the world. Asking for help does not mean they have to just be a permanent sponge. As a young adult, I was to proud to ask for help, I had something to prove and had to do everything on my own. I was successful, but it was hard and I did not reach my potential. But as an experienced adult, I've learned there is nothing wrong with accepting help. Most people that are successfull didn't do it on their own, they got help from somebody in some way. Its the reality of this world. Those that ask for help and take it do better than those that do it on their own. There are very few real rags to riches stories where someone truly did it on their own, their own way. Government should be a resource for people to get help. I never said anyone should rely on the government's help. But if Bread is being passed out on th food line, I am equally worthy to put a peice on my plate. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC'srole inregulationof net-neutrality The Government isn't doing enough. They are failing Homeowners, in similar ways that they are failing to assist small ISPs. They label them financially unworthy to give help to. This statement/sentiment in a nutshell is the problem. Those that are looking to big government to hold their hand and make everything ok because they feel they can't do anything for themselves. The government is doing precisely the opposite and involving itself into issues that it has no business being in. This is why we're in the situation we're in today...after decades of growing government we are now at the breaking point. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 11:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role inregulationof net-neutrality Unemployment stats are also misleading. For example, Many people had high dollar jobs when they qualified for their homes, then lot them. They then tppk jobs at half the salary because that is what they could find. UNemployment stats dont show that people are Employed but working in job at half their normal salary. The people are now caught up in mortgages that are more than they can afford, because their economic position changed. Then there was no way out of the situation. What do you do when the market is down and no one will buy your home that you can NO LONGER afford, but once could? I just dont believe that the reason for home market crashing isbecause the government was bad amd the Homeowners were not worthy enough financially to be homeowners at the time they bought their homes. It is extremely short sighted to think otherwise. The problem primarilly lied with Middle Class borrowers, NOT low income borrowers. Again, the results wont adequately show that because the MiIddle Class got a bailout from the Government, and the Super Rich got a Bailout from the government, but little ol low income was left on their own to fight off the wolves. One of the Largest tragedies of the ARRA efforts is that the people that need the help the most have been ignored. Its ironic when the government programs are helping people get rock bottom rates that can already can afford to pay their mortgages and had reasonable rates, but yet people that are struggling, and potentially could continue paying their mortgage if they had the opportunity to reduced their loan shark rates down to reasonable lower interest rate, dont get the opportuity. Its a crock. The Government isn't doing enough. They are failing Homeowners, in similar ways that they are failing to assist small ISPs. They label them financially unworthy to give help to. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
Re: [WISPA] Common Carrier or what: The FCC's role in regulation of net-neutrality
Brad, People are losing their homes.many of which never should have been afforded the privilege of home ownership if it were not for big government forcing lenders to lend to unqualified buyers. You had me, until the above paragraph. That is a crock of ShXX. Most housing foreclosures are conscious business decissions by the middle class, to improve their finance and cash flow. They ask, Is it worth continuing to sink money into this bad investment losing money? I will say that there are a shortage of buyer. So when an investor cant offload their losing investment (House) to someone else, they resort to less ethical choices. What does someone do if their house jsut lost 50k in value? IF they go to foreclosure, they can pretty much live rent free for a year in their home, before they are forced out. If they put their rent check in hidden savings instead, they earn 50k that year. That combined with gettting out of a loan taht is valued at mor ethan the house, it is a net $100k earning, for doing nothing. They learn they can earn more losing their home than some people do holding on to their home as an investment to resale. And governments were not the ones forcing lenders to lend. Its the opposite Government regulation is unnecessarilly setting regulations to make buying harder for consumers, to address a problem that didn't exist. Some People loose homes because a home is a 30 year commitment, and its hard for anyone to predict how one's life will pan out every year for 30 years. All it takes is one bad year, and there goes the house. People loose houses because they loose jobs. People loose houses because most personal debt is secured by their house, and loosing the house is the easiest way to get rid of the other debt. People lose houses because they cant live within their mean in other areas of their life. Or because they set their sights to high. But the biggest reason people default, is because they develop a sense of satisfaction or entitlement in screwing their lender when they feel they were taken advantage of by their lendor. Even with Bankruptcy, there are some interesing stats, for example, almost all people that go bankrupt religiously paid their bills the many years prior to, and that they had an average interest increase of 80-100% the year they filed. The borrower could have paid and wanted to pay, but whenthey felt there was no way out of getting screwed by the lender, they make a business decission. Part of the problem was dishonest overstated appraisals, and greedy lenders approving loans at values higher than the homes should be worth. Sure there is a percentage of foreclosure that are legitimate cases where the homeowner can no longer afford to pay their mortgage. But many are conscience business decissions on their investment. Why do you think Obama decided to help Middle class save their homes, while they let the most needy loose their homes? A Interest rate savings canbe justified as a clear business decission that might influence the middle class home owner to want to keep their home, instead of purposely defaulting. I will agree that the Government is not taking the right approach to solve the problems. But they surely are not the cause of the problem. Assisting Americans into HomeOwnership is one of the largest success stories for America. And government assistance (such as FHA loan) was one of the answers to when the private sector was not willing to solve the problem on their own. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband Brad Belton wrote: Jack, Your police analogy is flawed. While it may take a larger police force to serve and insure the safety of a larger population it does not take a larger government body with increased invasion of those people's lives to govern effectively. A larger population requires no more or fewer laws than a small population as the laws are applied to all regardless of the size of population. Agreed, the more people that give up and begin to simply depend on the government to provide for them the worse our country (or any country) becomes. This is exactly what big government wants; the people to become more dependent on them. The more dependent the people become on big government the more power they have over your life and the fewer freedoms you enjoy. Why is it that so many small businesses exist? They exist partly because they can provide a better service/price than the big guys. Wireless providers (other than those looking for a handout to keep their doors open) exist because the ILECs created an opportunity that we identified and acted upon. Capitalism and the market works well as long as big government stays out of it. I don't know about the rest here, but the more the big Telco's charge the better my business does! What does America have to show for all the ridiculous recent spending? GM
Re: [WISPA] Follow up article
I just think we were at a disadvantage from day 1 because Obama had a Blackberry, so was well versed on the value of mobility. But he didn't have a Fixed Wireless to his home to fully understand its value equally. Actually, his field locations often do, but not sure he knows. :-) PS. I know, shouldn't be talking politics. Just an observaation. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Follow up article Are you on the right list? This is WISPA - Wild Independent Studys of Politics in America :) On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.comwrote: How did politics get in my inbox? Who's moderating this list anyway? They are asleep at the wheel! Sent Mobile Jerry Richardson airCloud Communications On Feb 2, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Philip Dorr wirel...@judgementgaming.com wrote: 5% Truman On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Marco Coelho coelh...@gmail.com wrote: I'm going to get my Junior chemistry set out and design a President. 5% of Lincoln, 25% Teddy Roosevelt, 25% Ronald Reagan, 20% Bush Jr., 25% ?? Suggestions? Patton maybe? Churchill? A blend? Marco On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I liked him. Voted for him. Now, had enough of him. Where's LBJ when we need him?!!! :) Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 11:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Follow up article You know I really didn't like Obama in the beginning. Now he's really pissing me off. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts. --- Winston Churchill On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 11:53 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: I was just wondering about this the other day. It seems that we (USA) give things away so freely only to have them used against us. In the case of the net, I find it ironic that the very thing we developed is being used to attack our government and our people in so many ways yet we let everyone connect to it. I think we should start cutting of the ilk that hack or attempt to hack into our networks. -RickG On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 11:31 PM, Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.com wrote: From NewsMax: Obama Surrendering Internet to Foreign Powers Sunday, 31 Jan 2010 06:41 PM Article Font Size By: Bradley A. Blakeman Without the ingenuity of America's brightest minds and the investment of U.S. taxpayer dollars, there would be no Internet, as we now know it today. Now, the Obama administration has moved quietly to cede control of the Web from the United States to foreign powers. Some background: The Internet came into being because of the genius work of Americans Dr.Robert E. Kahn and Dr. Vinton G. Cerf. These men, while working for the Department of Defense in the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency in the early 1970s, conceived, designed, and implemented the idea of open-architecture networking. This breakthrough in connectivity and networking was the birth of the Internet. These two gentlemen had the vision and the brainpower to create a worldwide computer Internet communications network that forever changed the world and how we communicate in it. They discovered that providing a person with a unique identifier (TCP/IP)that was able to be recognized and interact through a network of servers would allow users to communicate with others. The servers woulduse a series of giant receivers to recognize the identifier and connect networks to networks, passing on information from computer to computer in a seamless real-time exchange of information. This new process of communication became know as the information super highway, aka, the Internet. Now for the bad news: In an effort to show the world how inclusive, sharing, cooperative, and international America can be, the Obama administration set off on a plan to surrender control and key management of the Internet by the U.S. Department of Commerce and its agents. The key to the control America has over the Internet is through the management of the Domain Name System (DNS) and the giant servers that service the Internet. Domain names are managed through an entity named IANA, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority. The IANA, which operates on behalf of the U.S. Department of Commerce, is responsible for the global coordination
Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul
MT is not a replacement for an APEX, since the value of the APEX is LICENSED spectrum. But, I share Chuck's praise for MT. WISPs have been running reliable backbones on unlicenced spectrum and MT successfully for years. The new MT hardware and Firmwares are really nice and plenty reliable. For any link 50mbps or less, I'd select an Unlicensed solution without hesitation. Specifically, MT w/ WDS and NStreme will do 30mbps HDX on a 20Mhz channel easilly. As well, if you use the latest N class mPCI, you can set it up with a Dual Pol panel. I personally do not like Mimo configs much, but I like using N cards for manual on-the-fly polarity change/selection. I prefer the MT over the Ubiquiti, because the MT can do channel scans now, and thats important to be able to quickly identify free channels if Interference is ever received. But I really like the Ubiquiti antennas, that make DP inexpensive. I personally prefer Tlink-45s, which are a great radio, because they are a ready to go solution. But off-promo MT can save you a few dollars. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul We do as well. One of our MT links has more stability and reliability than a neighboring Trango Apex link. Regards, Chuck On Jan 30, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com wrote: Not to sound like a jerk, but who would trust they're main backbone feed to a Mikrotik or Ubiquiti Yikes! Please get something reliable like a Bridgewave or a Licensed DS3 Link! Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeremie Chism Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 11:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul Thanks for the suggestion. I will take a look and contact you off list. Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com Date: January 30, 2010 9:20:01 PM CST To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Short range backhaul Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org We are a vendor member and a WISP. On a short range, you should be able to use this MT kit just fine. We will support and configure it for you for free if you wish. http://tinyurl.com/ydzrgfn WISPA Members get free assembly. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:16 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Short range backhaul The UBNT Rocket dish but at such short range, overkill. Really, at such a short hop even a bullet and a grid or the AirGrid would work it fine. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeremie Chism Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 6:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Short range backhaul I have a pop across the street from one of my towers. The phone company there is giving me a great deal on bandwidth but I have to get it across to the tower. Any recommendations for something reliable at that range. Sent from my iPhone --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul
Jayson, If that turns out to be the case, it would of course be very exciting for the industry. But, so far, both Ubiquiti and Atheros had been silent about this topic. Our (unofficial and non-expert) investigation inferred that Atheros chipset AR9220 series (Mikrotik) has Spectrum analyzer support and last generation AR9160 (Ubiquiti) does not. From what I understood this was a chipset or chipset middleware limit, not an Operating System Firmware thing. So how does Ubiquiti plan to accomplish this? A Hardware upgrade? It would be great if I were wrong. Was this new news from the recent Ubiquiti conferences? It's sweet. I can't wait. It would have to hear other than 802.11, it would have to hear when not associated, it would have to hear any channel size. Have you seen it? Are there Betas? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul Wait until you see the next release of firmware for the Ubiquiti MIMO equipment. Built-in spectrum analyzer, 1x better than Mikrotik, and almost as good as our $30k HP analyzer. Runs on the unit itself, while it's installed, in place, connected to the antenna. Can even run while the radio is in use and connected, but at a slower rate. It's sweet. I can't wait. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: MT is not a replacement for an APEX, since the value of the APEX is LICENSED spectrum. But, I share Chuck's praise for MT. WISPs have been running reliable backbones on unlicenced spectrum and MT successfully for years. The new MT hardware and Firmwares are really nice and plenty reliable. For any link 50mbps or less, I'd select an Unlicensed solution without hesitation. Specifically, MT w/ WDS and NStreme will do 30mbps HDX on a 20Mhz channel easilly. As well, if you use the latest N class mPCI, you can set it up with a Dual Pol panel. I personally do not like Mimo configs much, but I like using N cards for manual on-the-fly polarity change/selection. I prefer the MT over the Ubiquiti, because the MT can do channel scans now, and thats important to be able to quickly identify free channels if Interference is ever received. But I really like the Ubiquiti antennas, that make DP inexpensive. I personally prefer Tlink-45s, which are a great radio, because they are a ready to go solution. But off-promo MT can save you a few dollars. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul We do as well. One of our MT links has more stability and reliability than a neighboring Trango Apex link. Regards, Chuck On Jan 30, 2010, at 11:38 PM, Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com wrote: Not to sound like a jerk, but who would trust they're main backbone feed to a Mikrotik or Ubiquiti Yikes! Please get something reliable like a Bridgewave or a Licensed DS3 Link! Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeremie Chism Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 11:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul Thanks for the suggestion. I will take a look and contact you off list. Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com Date: January 30, 2010 9:20:01 PM CST To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Short range backhaul Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org We are a vendor member and a WISP. On a short range, you should be able to use this MT kit just fine. We will support and configure it for you for free if you wish. http://tinyurl.com/ydzrgfn WISPA Members get free assembly. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:16 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Short range backhaul The UBNT Rocket dish but at such short range, overkill. Really, at such a short hop even a bullet and a grid or the AirGrid would work it fine. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeremie Chism Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 6:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul
That I agree with. But not a favor of RSTP for Wireless redundancy. Both PRimary and Secondary link need to be able to be monitored in real time, otherwise you cant guarantee the secondary link will be working when the first one fails. Often to prevent bridgeloop, one link has to be turned down with RSTP, thus easier with routing.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Glenn Kelley gl...@hostmedic.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul I could not agree more! _ Glenn Kelley | Principle | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. On Jan 31, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Bret Clark wrote: No critical link should ever be standalone whether using expensive equipment or using lower cost equipment. Always a good idea to put a second redundant link in running something like RSTP or OSPF. Gino Villarini wrote: Whatever rocks your world! Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of George Morris Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:54 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul Actually, we do Gino and have never had a problem. The latest generation of MT gear is pretty near bulletproof if deployed properly. I suspect there are quite a few people here that run their businesses on gear that you would turn you nose up at, so your condescension isn't really necessary. Yikes right back at ya. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 11:38 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul Not to sound like a jerk, but who would trust they're main backbone feed to a Mikrotik or Ubiquiti Yikes! Please get something reliable like a Bridgewave or a Licensed DS3 Link! Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeremie Chism Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 11:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Fwd: Short range backhaul Thanks for the suggestion. I will take a look and contact you off list. Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com Date: January 30, 2010 9:20:01 PM CST To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Short range backhaul Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org We are a vendor member and a WISP. On a short range, you should be able to use this MT kit just fine. We will support and configure it for you for free if you wish. http://tinyurl.com/ydzrgfn WISPA Members get free assembly. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 10:16 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Short range backhaul The UBNT Rocket dish but at such short range, overkill. Really, at such a short hop even a bullet and a grid or the AirGrid would work it fine. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeremie Chism Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 6:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Short range backhaul I have a pop across the street from one of my towers. The phone company there is giving me a great deal on bandwidth but I have to get it across to the tower. Any recommendations for something reliable at that range. Sent from my iPhone --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard?
Yes, That was who I was thinking of. Thanks. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Aaron D. Osgood aosg...@streamline-solutions.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard? Elon Musk, PayPal co-founder BIG investor in SpaceX and Tesla Motors Aaron D. Osgood Streamline Solutions L.L.C P.O. Box 6115 Falmouth, ME 04105 TEL: 207-781-5561 FAX: 615-704-8067 MOBILE: 207-831-5829 aosg...@streamline-solutions.net http://www.streamline-solutions.net Introducing Efficiency to Business since 1986. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 3:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard? Talking about Electric Cars and ISPs. There was another major Dot.Com guy that got heavilly into Electric cars. I just saw it on Discovery Channel not to long ago. It was like one of those Google, Yahoo, Utube, Facebook (after they cashed out) type of people. For the life of me, I cant remember who it was. Any one see the show and remember? I think his project lost a small fortune the first phase, but still alive. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 1:20 AM Subject: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard? I have had the pleasure of staying in touch with Jack Rickard, the founder of Boardwatch Magazine and ISPCON, over the last few years. His new passion these days is building electric cars and reporting on his progress on the technology. It obviously has nothing to do with wireless but many of you probably followed Jack for years through the early days of the Internet and I thought you might want to watch some video of his latest projects. This is better than anything shown on History, Discover and the Learning Channel combined. If you do not watch anything else make sure you watch his test drive videos of his electric Porsche. The discussions he shares are even more fascinating than the car itself. Sorry for the off topic post. For many of you I think you will agree that it is worth going off base a little. http://www.youtube.com/user/marionRickard John Scrivner WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard?
Yeah, the price for electric cars still overides the gas savings in most cases. It will come down eventually, after the hype is over and RD is paid for. But they say the same thing about WiMax technology. I wonder which will become affordable first? :-) But .. I'm a big fan of electric cars innovation because it promotes lighter smaller cars. I've always been a fan of the lighter sports car models, like Italian Sports cars. In my 20s, I used to joke around that my little Fiat X-19s was so light it could probably run on batteries, and that the targa top should have been made of solar panels. (PS, my gas guage was broken at the time, so I occasionally ran out of gas, and got caught having to push my car for a mile or two to the nearest gas station, which was quicker than waiting for someone to bring me a gas can). Go figure, 15 years later they are actually making electric sports cars. (well actually, they were making them way earlier, but the super conductivity, battery technology, and schience of electrical efficiency was not as advanced). The big problem I see is, What are they going to do with all the batteries that wear out? It could be Enviroment Hazmat HelX. Anyways, John, thanks for posting the link, it was an enjoyable listen. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 10:24 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard? He's a good guy he is Very cool stuff. I loved the part about the led lights. If only the prices of them would come down out of the clouds! marlon - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:20 PM Subject: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard? I have had the pleasure of staying in touch with Jack Rickard, the founder of Boardwatch Magazine and ISPCON, over the last few years. His new passion these days is building electric cars and reporting on his progress on the technology. It obviously has nothing to do with wireless but many of you probably followed Jack for years through the early days of the Internet and I thought you might want to watch some video of his latest projects. This is better than anything shown on History, Discover and the Learning Channel combined. If you do not watch anything else make sure you watch his test drive videos of his electric Porsche. The discussions he shares are even more fascinating than the car itself. Sorry for the off topic post. For many of you I think you will agree that it is worth going off base a little. http://www.youtube.com/user/marionRickard John Scrivner WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard?
Talking about Electric Cars and ISPs. There was another major Dot.Com guy that got heavilly into Electric cars. I just saw it on Discovery Channel not to long ago. It was like one of those Google, Yahoo, Utube, Facebook (after they cashed out) type of people. For the life of me, I cant remember who it was. Any one see the show and remember? I think his project lost a small fortune the first phase, but still alive. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner j...@scrivner.com To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 1:20 AM Subject: [WISPA] Where is Jack Rickard? I have had the pleasure of staying in touch with Jack Rickard, the founder of Boardwatch Magazine and ISPCON, over the last few years. His new passion these days is building electric cars and reporting on his progress on the technology. It obviously has nothing to do with wireless but many of you probably followed Jack for years through the early days of the Internet and I thought you might want to watch some video of his latest projects. This is better than anything shown on History, Discover and the Learning Channel combined. If you do not watch anything else make sure you watch his test drive videos of his electric Porsche. The discussions he shares are even more fascinating than the car itself. Sorry for the off topic post. For many of you I think you will agree that it is worth going off base a little. http://www.youtube.com/user/marionRickard John Scrivner WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Promo
Funny. Nice to have a reality check from Rural America. :-) Looks like a BTOP/BIP middle mile grant is needed to your town.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: jp j...@saucer.midcoast.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 10:56 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Promo On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 09:42:09AM -0600, Mike Hammett wrote: As Matt Larsen has been talking about, he built out 125 miles of backhaul to connect his network back to civilization. Others have even further to go. - Mike Hammett Looks like we'd have to go across three states to get to a Cogent facility. Five states to get to Hurricane Electric. Colocation at their datacenter would be a pittance compared to the backhaul costs. -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] The Story of Medicine Bow Part 8 of 8 now online
Matt, I wanted to once again offer my praise for your fine 8 part story. Finally, a read that reflects the true essance of what the WISP industry is all about. We might not get broadband to the remaining 24 million unserved American homes overnight. But our Industry really does make an impact at 1-50 homes one day at a time. We have 2 million subs to prove it. I've always said, we can do it alone if we have to, but we could do so much more with just a LITTLE help. I dont think many regulators really understand what that means yet, a little help. I expecially like your closing paragraphs that spells it out Something similar to Guarantees for a lot of $10k projects would go a lot further, than these few $multi-million projects. I personally think your story deserves to be picked up by a major magazine or newspaper. In my opinion, every individual in government policy should read it, before they pass judgement on our industry. I think the fact that your story is told from the perspective of rural America will help people more easilly visualize the issues. But the reality is there are a lot of Urban and Suburban Cowboys out there to. Although the challenge are a bit different, they have similar impact. But some of the most important points apply to us all. For example, the fact that WISP's effort are so quickly discounted as second best early in the process, but at the end of the day, we have a lot to offer and the ones comming to the table with a real solution. A small town is relevent to us, so we get it done. I hope everyone passes the link around. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists li...@manageisp.com To: Mikrotik discussions mikro...@mail.butchevans.com; Motorola Canopy User Group motorola-us...@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; Telecom Regulation the Internet cyberteleco...@listserv.aol.com; nnsq...@nnsquad.org; ip i...@v2.listbox.com Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:19 AM Subject: [WISPA] The Story of Medicine Bow Part 8 of 8 now online The final installment of The Story of Medicine Bow is now online at http://www.wirelesscowboys.com/.This summarizes the final impact of the project three months later. Thanks to all of you who have been reading it! Matt Larsen Vistabeam.com Wirelesscowboys.com wispdirectory.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Promo
John, You are correct, Gig is starting to go for $1-$2 per mb. Not only from Hurricaine, although Hurricaine is clearly a disruptive force leader today. Hurricaine is doing a big marketing push with Equinix, which I think is really helping them expand both in market share and quality of peering. Having to buy Gig quantity to get a discount is no longer a disadvantage when it is 10x less per mb than 100mb quantity :-) The problem is that nobody (End user customers) needs a Gig. So providers dont want to sell you a gig in remote buildings where there are customers that you can resell to, or they under cut themselves. They also cant do it in buildings where they have to buy/lease the fiber from someone else, without multiple customers to share it. It has to be from a place that they already cost justified the Dark fiber purchase. Cost is still all about transport, getting into the colo. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Thomas jtho...@quarnet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Promo We buy ours through a reseller, and they have quoted us $1000/month for Gig at Hurricane Electric in Fremont CA. John Mike Hammett wrote: I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if GigE connections were under $1 now. I know a couple companies were at $1. Bandwidth pricing is the inverse of real estate pricing. Downtown Chicago, a sq.ft. of land could buy you hundreds of acres in Montana. A single meg in Montana could buy you hundreds of megs (or a couple gigs) in Chicago. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Andy Trimmell atrimm...@precisionds.com Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 2:20 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Promo 50Mbit for $450 a month isn't bad for a pipe to ATT. We're paying 10x that from ATT right now. $0.90? come on give me a break. If that's possible then we should sue ATT for highway robbery. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 1:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Promo Did you mean $9/meg or $0.90/meg? $9/meg isn't much to write home about. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 11:48 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; RickG rgunder...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Promo Yup. If you are at an on-net building you can get it even cheaper. One client is buying for $9 a meg in bulk in Chicago. Their biggest hurdle are peering agreements with the big boys. The ATt¹s of the world are sort of tolerating them at the moment until they can figure out what to do. They tried de-peering with them a few years ago and there was an outcry. Lots of web-sites are hosted on cogent bandwidth. Justin -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net CCNA CCNT Mikrotik Advanced http://www.mtin.net - Homepage http://www.mtin.net/blog - Technical Blog XISP solutions Hosting Consulting Tower Climbing From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 02:33:16 -0500 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Promo I hear $1500 for a gig! On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: I wish I was a bit closer to a POP to take advantage of it, but my Cogent rep informed me that through the end of the month, they have a promo going $400/100 megabit 1 year contract. Only available at Cogent and carrier neutral data centers. These facilities are listed on their web site under the network heading. A complete building list (and not eligible for this promo) is available in the service locator under Dedicated Internet access. Not all of their host buildings allow roof access, but I believe a significant number of them do. I encourage you to build your network out to these facilities. Sure, someone's going to hop on here and complain about how horrible Cogent is, but every carrier has their good and bad spots. I'm sure I could find someone to honestly say the same things about ATT, VZB, Level3, InterNAP, XO, MZima, etc., etc. It doesn't matter the carrier, I strongly encourage you to have more than one. Feel free to blast the list with questions about building your network to Cogent, routing policies to best combine Cogent and your existing provider, etc. These things would apply to any carrier, not just Cogent. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing
Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations
Can any of these GB switches (or any brand) give realtime statistics on mbps passing through a router port? I recognize SNMP can query a port's packet count, and the math done via a third party utility. But I'm refering to logging in via telnet or web, and having an easy weay to watch the throughput passing? The reason I'm asking is that this is relevent for Bandwdith testing of Backbones, where one can always run an end to end bandwdith test, but taht is meaning less if the pre-existing capacity used is not identified. This is one reason we use Linux routers at each hop, is we can watch all traffic per hop. Wondering if any switches can relicate that for us? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Thomas jtho...@quarnet.com To: n...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Thanks, that is good to know. It looks like the 1810G-24 can be upstream powered using POE. That could be a good thing for a WISP. John Nick Olsen wrote: The 1810G-24 can. The 1800-24 8 can't. Nick Olsen Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x106 From: John Thomas jtho...@quarnet.com Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:20 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Try to find out what mac address is on which port-you can't do that with the HP 1800's, you need something higher up the food chain. John Scott Vander Dussen wrote: Nick- Thanks for the info - I'm looking at specifications between the HP ProCurve 1810G Switch Series http://bit.ly/5g2F0B and HP ProCurve 2810 Switch Series http://bit.ly/5Nqvwc It seems much of the capabilities are the same, with the 2810 offering a bit more horsepower at about 2x the cost - plus the 2810 series offers a 48 port version. Any experience with the 2810 series? Thanks in advance. `S -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Nick Olsen Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations I've always been a fan of the HP switches, The 1800-24G is nice, But the new one I'm liking is the 1810G-24 24 Port Gig, Port mirroring...ect.. Nick Olsen Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x106 From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:27 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Yes, you are correct, several typical models, such as 100mb L2 and AL2 (These are Both full featured VLAN switches with different OSs which are similar to their equivellent gig version) only support mirroring in TX or RX per port, not simultaneous. For example To Do Calea monitoring it would be necessary to mirror two ports. For example, TX on the customer port, and RX on the backbone port, and sort through it. But I did not check the highest end SMC yet. I'll plug one in, and check for you, shortly.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Vander Dussen sc...@velociter.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Thx Tom- really only need rx/tx port mirroring - can your smc switch do that? I have some smcs that can only do rx or tx but not at the same time. Thx for info. Thanks, 'S --- Sent mobile (and probably one handed while driving!) On Jan 12, 2010, at 12:28 AM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Depends on your Requrements for the switch, that is not enough info. SMC has a fully featured switch that we love, the 24 cat5 Gig port (w/ 4 fiber module ports) model is about $750. It does everything.(complete VLAN, Multiple spanning tree, good monitoring stats, SNMP, Command prompt also, can Label Ports with names, etc) SMC has a 24 port Gig model for about $500 that does a lot, but you cant label ports with names. Then if all you want is WebSmart switch, now you are in the $300 range. And there are lots of manufacturer options for webSmart type. NetGear has a good one for about $550, might even have OSPF, but lacks a few VLAN features, but allows ports to have names.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Vander Dussen sc...@velociter.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:24 AM Subject: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Need to upgrade several 10/100 switches to 10/100/100; I'm looking
Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations
We currently use 100% Linux based routing and switching solutions. Works great. (Our Custom, MIkrotik, Imagestream, whatever, its all the same concept). All tower devices plug directly into a port on our integrated Linux switch/router. The reason I was asking was.we are about to do a major network overhaul, and considering injecting some Switches in-line. There can be many network design reasons to seperate switching and rounting devices at each HOP/Cell tower, (to many possibilties to list). An example config Consider City A,B,C, and City B had GIg-E connections to A and C. At City B a Switch could be used to connect both Gigabit radios to create a layer2 backbone. And then a Router could still be used at teh City B tower which router had 1 gig connection to the switch also. (Or could even have two Giga Switch port connections). Then other sectors could be put directly to router ports. That would also allow for multiple OSPF connection such as between non-adjacent Cities, if when appropriate. So my intent was not to compare Linux to non-Linux Switches and which to use, but instead to decide that if seperating Switch and Router components to seperate devices which features the switch component would be responsible for (versus the router) in the new design. My topic only referring to core Backbone Network design. We have three options. 1) Radio1 to Router1 to Radio2. (Layer3 backbone) 2) Radio1 to switch1 to Router1 Port1 to Router1 Port2 to switch2 to Radio2. (LAyer3 backbone w/ switches to enable injecting (bridge) additional devices before or after the router.) 3) Radio1 to Switch1 to Router1 to Switch1(same) to radio2. (LAyer2 backbone, with LAyer3 routing at each tower for distribution). The above is actually much more elaborate than simplified above considering often several backbones travel through a cell site, and redundant paths. There can be other considerations such as Where is QOS done when multiple methods are needed? For example, a backbone might want to prioritize based on application service type. Where as a Router might want to prioritize based on Customer Class. I could invision LAyer2 switches prioritizing VOIP, and Routers doing customer bandwidth mangement. Or switching can add ability to better integrate redundant routers. For example, without a switch a Gigabit radio cant be plugged into both a primary and backup router. (Unless its a APEX that allows use of both Fiber and CAT5 at same time on seperate PVLANS) What we have learned is that we need intelligence per Tower, if anything just for testing performance. So we will always have high end Linux router devices at each tower to perform those tests. The question we are deciding is should the second device needing less intelligence be a switch or linux device. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Nick Olsen n...@brevardwireless.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Not that I'm aware of. I'm sure some of the higher end switches do it (cisco..ect..) RouterOS always does it for me. Nick Olsen Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x106 From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 10:27 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Can any of these GB switches (or any brand) give realtime statistics on mbps passing through a router port? I recognize SNMP can query a port's packet count, and the math done via a third party utility. But I'm refering to logging in via telnet or web, and having an easy weay to watch the throughput passing? The reason I'm asking is that this is relevent for Bandwdith testing of Backbones, where one can always run an end to end bandwdith test, but taht is meaning less if the pre-existing capacity used is not identified. This is one reason we use Linux routers at each hop, is we can watch all traffic per hop. Wondering if any switches can relicate that for us? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Thomas jtho...@quarnet.com To: n...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 10:56 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Thanks, that is good to know. It looks like the 1810G-24 can be upstream powered using POE. That could be a good thing for a WISP. John Nick Olsen wrote: The 1810G-24 can. The 1800-24 8 can't. Nick Olsen Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x106 From: John Thomas jtho...@quarnet.com Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:20 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA
Re: [WISPA] To backup my last post!
OK, Just read it. They are asking MICs to stop broadcasting on the 698-806Mhz range, which is the 700Mhz spectrum that was already Auctioned off to Cell carriers (and public safety) 1-2 years ago. With the exception of teh DBlock, this spectrum already belongs to auction winners like Verizon, and this was all expected to occcur. After all they paid billions for it. So this has nothing to do with MIC use on Whitespace below 700Mhz. (TV channels 1-51), and shutting down the illegal mic by this FCC order will not gain any spectrum for WISPs. The only exception might be DBlock. DBLock has a share with Public safety clause, which is why few bid on it at auction. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] To backup my last post! Sorry Tom, I Accidentally deleted your response. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-295737A1.pdf http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-10-16A1.pdf and more if you wish. I just hope they want to open it it up an not auction it off. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com Reply-To: sarn...@info-ed.com, WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:48:21 -0600 [FCC document] FCC ADOPTS ORDER TO CLEAR THE 700 MHZ FREQUENCY BAND FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND NEXT GENERATION CONSUMER USERS Washington, D.C. - Today the Federal Communications Commission adopted an Order and Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking prohibiting the further distribution and sale of devices that operate in the 700 MHz frequency band. This action helps complete an important component of the DTV Transition by clearing the 700 MHz band to enable the rollout of communications services for public safety and the deployment of next generation 4G wireless devices for consumers. The order will primarily impact the use of wireless microphone systems that currently operate in the 700MHz band. These unlicensed devices cannot continue to operate in this band because they may cause harmful interference to public safety entities and next generation consumers devices that will be utilizing it. Thus, the Commission is making clear that no devices utilizing these frequencies may be sold or distributed. In order to ensure that individuals and groups currently using unauthorized devices in this band have ample time to transition to appropriate frequencies, the FCC is providing a sunset period until June 12, 2010, one year from the DTV Transition. Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] To backup my last post!
Wireless MIC folks dont have authorized right to use that space, so I'm supportive of FCC's order. But its not just Wireless MIC manufacturers that are getting punished, their sales were already made and collected.. Its also consumers. Every struggling musician, stage entertainer, or whatever that will have to buy up to replace their gear. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] To backup my last post! I think it is a wake up call to the entertainment industry. The FCC is watching the wireless mics and will no longer tolerate the cowboy attitude of using whatever they want on whatever open channel they can find and I believe the manufacturers shoulder a lot of the responsibility for marketing those devices. Since they will be required to have new compliant equipment, it may also mean that the new stuff they purchase will actually be built to deal with the new whitespace rules. This is a good thing for TVWS as it should take a lot of the mics off the air that might be a problem in the future. Given the fact that the wireless mic lobby seems to have a lot of pull in DC, this is a major effort from the FCC. During WISPA's efforts with whitespaces I was always amazed at how much clout wireless microphone manufacturers and users had. Given that these same companies control the media, it makes sense that government handles the situation with kid gloves Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 5:16 AM To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] To backup my last post! OK, Just read it. They are asking MICs to stop broadcasting on the 698-806Mhz range, which is the 700Mhz spectrum that was already Auctioned off to Cell carriers (and public safety) 1-2 years ago. With the exception of teh DBlock, this spectrum already belongs to auction winners like Verizon, and this was all expected to occcur. After all they paid billions for it. So this has nothing to do with MIC use on Whitespace below 700Mhz. (TV channels 1-51), and shutting down the illegal mic by this FCC order will not gain any spectrum for WISPs. The only exception might be DBlock. DBLock has a share with Public safety clause, which is why few bid on it at auction. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] To backup my last post! Sorry Tom, I Accidentally deleted your response. http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-295737A1.pdf http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-10-16A1.pdf and more if you wish. I just hope they want to open it it up an not auction it off. Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com Reply-To: sarn...@info-ed.com, WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:48:21 -0600 [FCC document] FCC ADOPTS ORDER TO CLEAR THE 700 MHZ FREQUENCY BAND FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND NEXT GENERATION CONSUMER USERS Washington, D.C. - Today the Federal Communications Commission adopted an Order and Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking prohibiting the further distribution and sale of devices that operate in the 700 MHz frequency band. This action helps complete an important component of the DTV Transition by clearing the 700 MHz band to enable the rollout of communications services for public safety and the deployment of next generation 4G wireless devices for consumers. The order will primarily impact the use of wireless microphone systems that currently operate in the 700MHz band. These unlicensed devices cannot continue to operate in this band because they may cause harmful interference to public safety entities and next generation consumers devices that will be utilizing it. Thus, the Commission is making clear that no devices utilizing these frequencies may be sold or distributed. In order to ensure that individuals and groups currently using unauthorized devices in this band have ample time to transition to appropriate frequencies, the FCC is providing a sunset period until June 12, 2010, one year from the DTV Transition. Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
[WISPA] Fw: ARRA Broadband NOFA II and Workshops - Broadband Teaming Tool
I wanted to make sure ALL WISPs saw the below attached message from USDA, listing details on BTOP/BIP Workshops. I want to specifically point out the First Workshop in OR is on Jan 26th, approaching quickly. Dates: Portland OR- Jan 26th Reno,NV Jan27 Denver, CO JAn 29 SanAntonio,TX- Feb1 Eureka,MO Feb2 SiuxFalls,SD- Feb4 Detroit MI- Feb5 Reno,NV Jan27 Blacksburg,VA Feb9 Fayetteville, NC Feb11 Atlanta, GA- Feb12 Tom DeReggi - Original Message - From: Bradley, Joe - Meridian, ID To: wireless-ow...@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 7:08 PM Subject: ARRA Broadband NOFA II and Workshops - Broadband Teaming Tool WISPA: So that we can get the widest distribution for the ARRA Broadband Program as soon as possible, could you please distribute the following to your members or associates? I cover Oregon, Idaho and Washington State but, I am sure other locations would benefit from the information as well. Folks: In order to gain the widest possible distribution, please forward to those that may have an interest in ARRA Broadband or would like to attend one or more of the Workshops. NTIA and RUS have released separate Notices of Funding Availability for the second and final round of the Broadband Technology Opportunities Program (BTOP) and the Broadband Initiatives Program (BIP). These Notices are being provided for informational purposes only. If there is any difference between these documents and the Notices officially published in the Federal Register, the Federal Register Notices are controlling. RUS Round 2 NOFA; NTIA Round 2 NOFA . Or at http://www.broadbandusa.gov/ . The Department of Commerce's National Telecommunications and Information Administration (NTIA) and the Department of Agriculture's Rural Utilities Service (RUS) announced its second series of public workshops connected to the application process for the second round of broadband grants and loans under the Recovery Act. As in the first round, NTIA and RUS gave extensive consideration to the workshop locations: they selected locations representative of rural and urban needs, as well as a diversity of regions, populations, topographies and city/metropolitan-area sizes. They also considered the travel needs of attendees. The workshops are free and open to the general public, the locations can be found at: http://www.broadbandusa.gov/workshop.htm For any assistance with the Broadband Initiatives Program (BIP), the Broadband Technology Opportunities Program (BTOP, please contact the Broadband USA Help Desk by phone at 1-877-508-8364 or by email at broadband...@usda.gov Broadband Match - at http://match.broadbandusa.gov - allows potential applicants to find partners for broadband projects, helping them to combine expertise and create stronger proposals. For example, a broadband infrastructure provider might partner with community institutions, like universities, hospitals, or libraries, on a proposal to bring high-speed Internet service to their facilities. Any company, nonprofit, state or local government or expert individual interested in applying for funding under NTIA's Broadband Technology Opportunities Program (BTOP) or RUS's Broadband Initiatives Program (BIP) can post a profile, including key information about the contribution they can make to a broadband project, as well as search for other stakeholders whose skills and resources match their needs. Thank you; Joe D. Bradley joe.brad...@wdc.usda.gov U.S.D.A. - RUS Telecomm. Field Representative for ID, E-OR and E-WA Cell - 208-401-8090 Desk FAX - 208-288-1435 (Mountain Time) Mail / Air Delivery: U.S.D.A. - RUS Attn: Joe D. Bradley 104 E. Fairview Ave. No. 291 Meridian, ID 83642-1733 - LOANS and GRANTS - Telecommunications Program Website: http://www.usda.gov/rus/telecom/index.htm ARRA - BIP and BTOP: http://www.broadbandusa.gov/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] To backup my last post!
Scottie, Yeah, I saw that. I'm just confused on exactly what part of the 700Mhz band they are talking about, since they mentioned Public safety. There is the 700Mhz that Verizon won at auction. There is the 700Mhz Dblock that got no reserve bids sitting dormant (share between public safety and auction winner), There is TVWhitespace up to 700Mhz. Are there other 700Mhz ranges? What I'm trying to understand is if they are telling MICs to also vacate whitespace or if they are saying vacate a specific 700 Mhz range and use other TVWhitespace ranges instead? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scottie Arnett sarn...@info-ed.com To: motor...@afmug.com Cc: wireless@Wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 11:48 PM Subject: [WISPA] To backup my last post! [FCC document] FCC ADOPTS ORDER TO CLEAR THE 700 MHZ FREQUENCY BAND FOR PUBLIC SAFETY AND NEXT GENERATION CONSUMER USERS Washington, D.C. - Today the Federal Communications Commission adopted an Order and Further Notice of Proposed Rulemaking prohibiting the further distribution and sale of devices that operate in the 700 MHz frequency band. This action helps complete an important component of the DTV Transition by clearing the 700 MHz band to enable the rollout of communications services for public safety and the deployment of next generation 4G wireless devices for consumers. The order will primarily impact the use of wireless microphone systems that currently operate in the 700MHz band. These unlicensed devices cannot continue to operate in this band because they may cause harmful interference to public safety entities and next generation consumers devices that will be utilizing it. Thus, the Commission is making clear that no devices utilizing these frequencies may be sold or distributed. In order to ensure that individuals and groups currently using unauthorized devices in this band have ample time to transition to appropriate frequencies, the FCC is providing a sunset period until June 12, 2010, one year from the DTV Transition. Scottie Wireless High Speed Broadband service from Info-Ed, Inc. as low as $30.00/mth. Check out www.info-ed.com/wireless.html for information. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] The Story of Medicine Bow and wirelesscowboys.com
Matt, What a great idea and name. Congrads with the launch! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists li...@manageisp.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; Mikrotik discussions mikro...@mail.butchevans.com Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 12:28 PM Subject: [WISPA] The Story of Medicine Bow and wirelesscowboys.com I recently started a new blog site that will be highlighting the stories of Wireless ISPs around the US, along with equipment reviews, opinion pieces on broadband policy and some occasional rants and raves. The site is called Wireless Cowboys and you can find it at http://www.wirelesscowboys.com/. For those of you that don't know me, I run a WISP in rural Nebraska and Wyoming and the WISP Directory site http://www.wispdirectory.com. My college degree is in journalism and this is my attempt to reactivate my writing skills outside of the wireless mailling lists. I have loaded some of my previous postings, but today is the unofficial kickoff of the site and I have a long, eight part story about the struggles of a small town in Wyoming to get broadband service and how they finally got it. It is an eye opener for people who are not directly involved in the WISP industry and a reflection of the everyday struggles that WISPs face. My intention is to feature more articles about WISPs in the future. If you have a story that you would like to share with the world, please contact me at wirelesscowboy -at- vistabeam.com. Thanks and have a great weekend! Matt Larsen vistabeam.com wispdirectory.com wirelesscowboys.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Trango APEX firmware question
I always find it interesting how different people have different experiences with the same gear. I'm wondering if it depends on what firmware each was using.at the time? Our APEX gear is 18Ghz, and we have not had the same experiences shared by the others. The experience we had was that the management interface became unaccessible after a period of like a month, but data always passed flawlessly. Since we upgraded to the latest firmware, this no longer occurs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango APEX firmware question On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 08:50, Brad Belton b...@belwave.com wrote: The reason the Apex18 was upgraded was because it would just stop passing data even though the rssi, BER, MSE and link lock status all showed good. So far we haven't seen the issue again, but this problem only surfaced every month or two. Jury is still out if the firmware resolved the issue. I had basically that same problem, except the radios would stop passing traffic every two or three days. Applied that firmware late last summer (August, maybe? September? I've slept since then). Not a single glitch since, so I'm willing to say the firmware resolved it. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations
Depends on your Requrements for the switch, that is not enough info. SMC has a fully featured switch that we love, the 24 cat5 Gig port (w/ 4 fiber module ports) model is about $750. It does everything.(complete VLAN, Multiple spanning tree, good monitoring stats, SNMP, Command prompt also, can Label Ports with names, etc) SMC has a 24 port Gig model for about $500 that does a lot, but you cant label ports with names. Then if all you want is WebSmart switch, now you are in the $300 range. And there are lots of manufacturer options for webSmart type. NetGear has a good one for about $550, might even have OSPF, but lacks a few VLAN features, but allows ports to have names.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Vander Dussen sc...@velociter.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:24 AM Subject: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Need to upgrade several 10/100 switches to 10/100/100; I'm looking for recommendations on good reliable equipment. Will need 24 and 48 port units, Rx/Tx port mirroring is a must! Thanks in advance, Scott WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations
Yes, you are correct, several typical models, such as 100mb L2 and AL2 (These are Both full featured VLAN switches with different OSs which are similar to their equivellent gig version) only support mirroring in TX or RX per port, not simultaneous. For example To Do Calea monitoring it would be necessary to mirror two ports. For example, TX on the customer port, and RX on the backbone port, and sort through it. But I did not check the highest end SMC yet. I'll plug one in, and check for you, shortly.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Vander Dussen sc...@velociter.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Thx Tom- really only need rx/tx port mirroring - can your smc switch do that? I have some smcs that can only do rx or tx but not at the same time. Thx for info. Thanks, ‘S --- Sent mobile (and probably one handed while driving!) On Jan 12, 2010, at 12:28 AM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Depends on your Requrements for the switch, that is not enough info. SMC has a fully featured switch that we love, the 24 cat5 Gig port (w/ 4 fiber module ports) model is about $750. It does everything.(complete VLAN, Multiple spanning tree, good monitoring stats, SNMP, Command prompt also, can Label Ports with names, etc) SMC has a 24 port Gig model for about $500 that does a lot, but you cant label ports with names. Then if all you want is WebSmart switch, now you are in the $300 range. And there are lots of manufacturer options for webSmart type. NetGear has a good one for about $550, might even have OSPF, but lacks a few VLAN features, but allows ports to have names.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Vander Dussen sc...@velociter.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 12:24 AM Subject: [WISPA] Network Gigabit Switch Recommendations Need to upgrade several 10/100 switches to 10/100/100; I'm looking for recommendations on good reliable equipment. Will need 24 and 48 port units, Rx/Tx port mirroring is a must! Thanks in advance, Scott --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Fiber port
Nothing actually has to be done to seal it because, Trango includes a rubbery gel sleeve that compresess between the passsthru metal plate and the case, with a tight fitting hole. In most cases that can be good enough. But to answer your question it depends what Fiber cable type and Power type you use. We generally dont run a dedicated power cable through that same hole as fiber. We power the radio through one of the CAT5 ports, which has a great paththrue grommit type. That way its one less cable to run, and we get a redundant data path to the radio. The radio can be POE powered from either CAT5 port. There are reasons that you might choose the management vs data CAT5 port, dependant on the circumstances. (It should be noted that both teh data and fiber port can be both used as seperate PVLANs, if desired) So when just fiber going through the Metal base plate, there is not much to seal, UNLESS you do not have fiber cable adequate to survive the elements. What we often do is we use 3ft of Flex tubing from the APEX to an outdoor junction box, and then patch in fiber there. It can be a hassle finding a cheap outdoor junction box. (So we made our own, for half the cost.) If using direct buriel multi-pair Loose tube, you can run the cable to the outdoor junction box and terminate with a fan out kit to a LC jack patch panel. Then use a short patch cable to extend to the APEX. This type install is rock solid, once its done. But its a pain working with Fan-out kits on a windy dirty roof. (If on a tower should probably be done on ground first, but on roofs it would not fit through access holes in walls and such) There is also indoor/outdoor Fiber that has an overall outer layer, and then each inner layer also has its own individual outer jacket. This type cable is cheaper, and can have LC connector connected directly to it, without the hassle of a Fanout kit. This cable is also significantly thinner, and can fit through APEX passthrough. In these cases, the cable can be run directly into the APEX without any junctions inbetween. We always run Fiber that has two pair (two tx and two rx) so if one fiber breaks, there is an immediate spare. There is room to slip both pair with conectors inside the APEX, I think. It should be noted that Indoor and Outdoor fiber are not the same. It is not just to prevent physical breaks from getting stepped on, or Firecode/UV of sleeve. The mor important issue is that it has a different Temperature rating for Cold. If you use indoor fiber outdoor in cold, it can crack internally due to cold. It should be noted that allthough Outdoor fiber and Fan-out kits will often have a different part number for its outdoor temp rated version. But most patch panels and stuff wont have an outdoor temp version. So, fo this reason, sometimes people perfer to put the fiber inside Flex, so its one more level of temperature insulation. Actually we use something called Liqui-tight, the grey stuff tthat can be bought just about anyware like HomeDepot. We debated for quite a while, whether we should use sealed FC type connectors inside the outdoor enclosure. The outcome was LC patch panels were easier to find, and LC patch panels will survive the elements just fine in most cases. As well, its also possible to run long fan outkits, and just run the thin inner fibers up through the 3ft of Liqui-tight to the APEX. That will survive the elements, if using outdoor temp version. BUT we chose NOT to do that because we were afraid that if we performed maintenance and needed to disconnect the fiber from the APEX, that the weight of the liqui-tight might break the fiber or pull loose from connector, if not careful. That is why we used a patch panel inside the Junction box, and patch cables to the APEX. We rarely ever run Conduit the whole fiber cable path, its to much of a pain. We'd rather use a fiber cable that is of a type that wont easilly break. But depending on your install location, you may disagree for your situation. But if you use conduit for the run, we recommend Liqui-tight, its not all that expensive and is easy to run, because you just carry it up in the spool. If you are worried about water intrusion, but dont want to use conduit, you can just cut a 6-10 peice of liquitight and screw that to the APEX base plate. (They make adapter to integrate to that size I think) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby dco...@infowest.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:04 AM Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Fiber port Just put up our first Apex 11Ghz link. Wondering what everyone does to seal up that port. The manual says you have to hook up the fiber / power port to metal conduit. Do you run conduit all the way back to the base? Do you just use a short piece? Do you put a compression fitting on the end? Use flex
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Fiber port
I agree the execution of this port is poor at best. Not at all the case. Compared to other brand radios, the Apex is one of the few that actually has an easilly accessible Fiber port. Both for replacing bad Transcievers and for connecting the fiber ends. This is a PLUS, not a disadvantage. The Fiber connector ends are designed to clip and adequately hold the Fiber ends in place. Fiber cable does not get damaged by water like a coax jack, and it just does not need the same precautions. If the fiber is NOT in flex conduit, then teh fiber should be tied of within a reasonable distance, which is easy enough. I really don't care for the copper Ethernet ports either as they do not have a large enough opening for the shielded outdoor cable we run. Sounds like you are using the wrong type of cable, then The CAT5 pass-thru jacks are of the best type in the industry. I'm glad they decided to use the best. If the Rubber are to thin, you can drill it by freeezing it, and then drilling. But we use direct buriel Superior Essex cable that fits perfectly. (Thicker mohawk wont fit). Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:41 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Fiber port Fortunately all our Apex installations have had relatively short cable runs, so haven't used the fiber port yet. I agree the execution of this port is poor at best. I really don't care for the copper Ethernet ports either as they do not have a large enough opening for the shielded outdoor cable we run. I would run a short piece of weather tight flex conduit from the radio to a NEMA enclosure and then continue the cable run from that point. We've done this with our BridgeWave installations. I'd still like to see pictures or hear what you ended up doing. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Randy Cosby Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 10:05 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex Fiber port Just put up our first Apex 11Ghz link. Wondering what everyone does to seal up that port. The manual says you have to hook up the fiber / power port to metal conduit. Do you run conduit all the way back to the base? Do you just use a short piece? Do you put a compression fitting on the end? Use flex? Just curious. I used a threaded metal 3/4 sweep 90, then capped it off with a Trango AP compression fitting. It's a little heavy though, and I worry about the little screws that hold the 3/4 threaded base plate getting stripped out. -- Randy Cosby Vice President InfoWest, Inc 435-674-0165 x 2010 http://www.infowest.com/ Letting off steam always produces more heat than light. - Neal A. Maxwell WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Fiber port
Brad, I do not mean to argue against your points just for the sake of it, but I honestly disagree with your assessment. On Cat5... Trango APEX uses Conex passthrus the same type that Dragonwave uses for their radios. There is a reason high grade radio manufacturers pick thems, they are quality. It is the cream of the crop, period. We've used them all. Dont hold me to this, but I think Conex makes different size passthrue holes for their various caps, and I think the caps are interchangable with the same base units. But I would need to double check that, you might want to explore that possibilty. The Conex passthrues are available through third parties cost effectively. But the fact is, a Passthrue rubber seal hole can NOT be made and proper sized for BOTH thickest and thinnest cable. Its one or the other, and best that it is made for the type cable most commonly used. Especially if there is an option to buy seperately the odd size passthru that you might need. Fiber base plate... Why in the world does it matter what it looks like? The radio is either located on a commerical roof top or 200ft up a tower. It looking like pipe conduit does absolutely no harm. I agree the same Fiber slot metal plate passthru when used on th TLink45 for Cat5, the hole is to small, and wish it was drilled out larger. But on the APEX, the hole is the right size for Fiber cable. And the Conex passthrues are the right size for many CAT5.. Additionally, Trango placed one of the copper Ethernet ports on the side of the radio rather than on the bottom. This can make for a difficult if not impossible connection to service as the cable has to make a sharp 90* turn before hitting the mounting pipe. Hopefully the next generation Apex radios will have better weatherized ports and have all of them placed in accessible locations. Once again, FUD. The Trango Apex as well as any other Manufacturer's ODU, has the option to turn 90 degrees to change polarities. In that circumstance, IF a connector was on the bottom standard, it would no longer be if turned 90 degrees to the alternate polarity. In Trangos design it guarantees that atleast one of the two connectors is in a downward posiiton, which is better than the alternative of none in the downward position. Lets compare it to Dragonwave Dragonwave's pertude outward from the back, equivellent to ALWAYS being horizontal or from the side. As well, pertruding out in that direction can cause them to bump into back walls or poles behind radio, if aligning at a sharp angle from behind's surface. My point here is that Trango's choice of CAT5 placement is better than the competitors. I'm not aware of any Manufacturer that came up with better placement. PS, I do not mean to attack Dragonwave, its just that Dragonwave is one of the other radios we frequently use, and it was clear in my mind where the CAT5 positioning was, so easy example to compare. Dragonwave's positioning is also exceptable because the Conex Cat5 passthru is weathertight at Horizontal placement. But my point is, Trango's placement is NOT inferior in design. I will admit, that if BRad needs a solution to accommodate a thicker cable, then that is something that he needs a solution for. But that does not mean Trango's design was wrong or bad. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex Fiber port This throwback port design from the Trango Summer Engineer Interns Atlas days is crap. Nothing like the professional look of a galvanized water pipe cap on a carrier class radio. The split rubber gland that is under this metal plate/water pipe cap is poor as well. I'm glad you've been lucky with your results, but inspecting these old style weather proof ports after a period of time always reveals some water and dust penetration. It's a hack design...for all the good Trango does for our industry don't try and defend their short comings. It diminishes your objective credibility. Instead point them out and hopefully Trango will take note on the next generation design. The Apex copper Ethernet ports are far from the best type in the industry. Clearly your exposure to quality weatherized Ethernet ports has been limited. While the Apex copper Ethernet ports are far better than the fiber port they are too small to pass a heavy jacketed, outdoor armored jacket. So, the result is striping back the armored outer jacket and using Coax-Seal from the compression ring to the outer jacket. It seems Trango opted to cater to those that prefer to run small diameter Home Depot CAT5 rather than a higher quality far more durable armored CAT5. Additionally, Trango placed one of the copper Ethernet ports on the side of the radio rather than
Re: [WISPA] Can I use Motorola Canopy 600SSB SurgeSuppressor withUBNT radios or Mikrotik?
The ones Eje posted are Citel indoor models. Citel also makes an outdoor model that has the same electronics as the inside model, but is in a case that looks very similar to the Canopy model. The outdoor model costs near the same as the indoor model. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com To: sarn...@info-ed.com; 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can I use Motorola Canopy 600SSB SurgeSuppressor withUBNT radios or Mikrotik? We among many others carry this one. http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=SP-POE-MJ8eq=Tp= Since this is an indoor model and should be placed as close as possible to the poe powered device to provide maximum protection to the unit for any power surge induced over you cat5 run I have personally never tested it with Canopy. But it should work well with as far as I know it does not distinguish between positive or negative requirements on the power cablings. Keep in mind that that unit clamps at 60V which is far more than Standard Canopy units can handle. Better selection might be the SP-POE-MJ24 which is designed to protect 24V units and have a clamping level of 30V on the power side and 7.5V on the data wires. http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=SP-POE-MJ24eq=Tp= We use them all the time with MikroTik and Ubiquiti radios as well sell them for that usage. I could if you want test to make sure they work with Canopy but I do not see a reason why not from my knowledge of the units design. / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scottie Arnett Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 4:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can I use Motorola Canopy 600SSB Surge Suppressor withUBNT radios or Mikrotik? Will these work with Canopy? Where can you get them? Price? They look like really nice units and they way they separate the data and power protection seems a better idea than competing products. Thanks, Scottie -- Original Message -- From: Data Technology w...@dtisp.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:56:40 -0600 I guess I hit enter before I was thru typing. I also use the Citel in-line suppressors (60v) in every AP that I build. http://www.citel.us/data_sheets/dataline/MJ850524D3A6012B-DataSheet.pdf Knock on wood, I have never lost an ethernet port on a unit that has this surge suppressor installed. I had an AP go dead a couple of months ago. When I opened the enclosure there was water in the bottom of the enclosure and the surge suppressor was actually melted from the connector shorting out, but the MT board was fine. LaRoy McCann Data Technology Josh Luthman wrote: I know it isn't said very often but the voltages for the devices we commonly use are Canopy 12-24v Nano/Locostations 12-25v MT 4xx 10-28v Cordless drill battery 18-22v Having a mobile POE priceless Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Data Technology w...@dtisp.com wrote: Good point about the voltage. I use them mostly for UBNT CPE. What MT units I used them with were 18 or 24V. Tom DeReggi wrote: The 600SSB still clamps at 35V like the 300SS, right? If so, make sure you are using Less than 35V Mikrotiks units and not 48V configurations. As an alternative Citel also makes a nice outdoor mountable unit specifically for wifi pin-outs, about the same cost ($25ish). They have both 60Vand 35V models. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Data Technology w...@dtisp.com To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can I use Motorola Canopy 600SSB Surge Suppressor with UBNT radios or Mikrotik? Yes you can. You have to move the ground jumper. Just loosen the nuts and move the jumper to the hole with no copper. The jumper will short out the + voltage to ground. LaRoy McCann Data Technology Scott Carullo wrote: Not sure if it matters that the voltage + and - are swapped... Thanks Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
a hickup for 5 years. The bottom line is, IF I can get a wireless link between two points, and the capacity I need does not exceed capabilty of Wireless, I will ALWAYS choose Wireless for better uptime. Fiber is good when the capacity exceeds wireless's. Fiber is good if it has a shorter number of Hops than Wireless does. Wireless backhaul tends to develop undesirable packetloss if the number of hops get to large. We try to keep our Core Wireless transport/backhaul HOPs under 3. But if Line-of-sight can be acheived, that gives a 30-60 mile radius that can best be served with Wireless backhaul for small providers, that dont expect huge capacities. A 300mbps wireless backhaul is more capacity than most small WISPs ever need, to achieve good ROI.. Note that I did not say quality. I said Reliabilty, meaning uptime and repair time. Wireless is also less expensive, I have never once seen a fiber carrier quote a lower cost per mb than a Wireless provider's lease payment to build their own, IF quote was for something like a tower site, where there were not numerous fiber carriers competing to that site location. IF I could get Dark Fiber cariers to sell me Dark Fiber as cheap as Metro E, with dedicated uninhibited paths dedicated to me extending 20 miles a hop, I could build Fiber to be more reliable than wireless, But its not cost effective to buy Dark Fiber in most cases. They want 5x more for Dark Fiber because of the opportunity cost. Dark Fiber is often priced to be not worth it unless pushing 10GB or more. As a matter of fact, IF I did a FTTH deployment, I'd feel more comfortable feeding it with a 300mb Wireless link, for better uptime. Because I'd know it would be more than enough capacity considering oversubscription. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Tom, When you make the claim that wireless has more uptime than fiber, where do you base those facts from and what types of fiber deployments are you comparing it to? While I believe wireless is a great thing, one has to wonder why a company who's name was MCI (Microwave Communications Incorporated) eventually switched everything to fiber? I helped buy a bunch of their old microwave tower sites after they were decommissioned. They built them for capacity and did everything right. It just seems that eventually the larger WISP's will need to consider the path that MCI took over time and wonder if they won't evolve along a similar path. Now their failure was not due to their choice of fiber over wireless and that's another story altogether. Fiber deployments have been commonplace between telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have some of the better reliability figures over any technology. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
The thing is there are cases or palces where Wireless cant be made reliable for a specific situations that limit that location. People will remember those rare cases and associate them with Wireless in general, without understanding that taht is a different situation and not the norm. People blaim Wireless or the wireless provider for a lot, but its rarely the Wireless's fault. You'd also be surprised how often Sonet Rings wont properly route the other direction around the ring, when a failure occurs, based on the type of failure. The Fiber Ring is a physical redundancy method, but it doesn't mean that the intelligence part over top it will properly direct the traffic. Its also hard to get a fiber carrier to truthfully disclose the full inner workings of their network, for the buyer to verify a claimed redundant path will truly offer full redundancy. The only way to know for sure, and guarantee it wont change over time, is to do it yourself, or work with someone small enough who is not afraid to show the proof. For example, for some of my customers, I'll map out hop per hop the path their data will go both primary and backup path. I'm not saying I give redunancy ever, because there are many places my network is not redundant. But I could built it redundant and PROVE IT, when customers were willing to pay for that. For Fiber,. If I want guaranteed redundant Fiber transport paths, they will charge me for two circuits, double the price. And I could get better diversity if I jsut deployed two wireless links to diverse paths. So To compare reliabilty of Wireless to Fiber, its really only an apples to apples comparison if we compare a single wireless link to a non-redundant single fiber path. For example, a Wireless ring could jsut as equally be created to compare against a Sonet ring. At the end of the day, the only thing Fiber gives us is more capacity when that capacity is actually needed. Unless of course, LOS cant be achieved, or distance to long for the technology. But the worst travisty in public perception is that the public often associates Wireless with the lowest technology capabilty. Fixed PTP wireless should NOT be bundled into the same category as PtMP Wifi. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Exactly. The terms wireless and fiber are too broad to make any valid reliability comparison without more specifics. Comparing a licensed point to point microwave system with redundant paths, spatial diversity, standby power, and a tower structure rated to 150 MPH to an aerial fiber strand running through the woods in northeast ice storm territory would lead one to believe that wireless is the more reliable technology. Comparing a 2.4 GHz 802.11 link with grid antennas shooting some trees in icy territory to a SONET ring connecting two metro area datacenters would lead one to believe that fiber is the more reliable technology. Unfortunately, this distinction is not made by the general public, and it makes the sales process for business grade fixed wireless services more difficult. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Bret Clark wrote: Brian Webster wrote: Fiber deployments have been commonplace between telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have some of the better reliability figures over any technology. Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy and you'll have the same uptime. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG
Re: [WISPA] Can I use Motorola Canopy 600SSB Surge Suppressor with UBNT radios or Mikrotik?
The 600SSB still clamps at 35V like the 300SS, right? If so, make sure you are using Less than 35V Mikrotiks units and not 48V configurations. As an alternative Citel also makes a nice outdoor mountable unit specifically for wifi pin-outs, about the same cost ($25ish). They have both 60Vand 35V models. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Data Technology w...@dtisp.com To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can I use Motorola Canopy 600SSB Surge Suppressor with UBNT radios or Mikrotik? Yes you can. You have to move the ground jumper. Just loosen the nuts and move the jumper to the hole with no copper. The jumper will short out the + voltage to ground. LaRoy McCann Data Technology Scott Carullo wrote: Not sure if it matters that the voltage + and - are swapped... Thanks Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by the Data Technology MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] TrangoLink45 Link Problem
, until you get the desired rssi, then use Trango's BUdget Calculator and confirm it matches the results. If calcs match, its most likely aligned good enough. So in summary, it probably is noise. Hardset config, no auto anything. Rely on Survey and Linktest commands to Diagnose. I'm not saying its not OK to use Auto on an ongoing basis. Just definately disable it during the troubleshooting process, so you have controlled factors to compare. . Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Reed scottr...@onlyinternet.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:14 AM Subject: [WISPA] TrangoLink45 Link Problem I have a 2 mile link with TrangoLink45's. Clear line of sight. The MU transmits at 54Mbps all the time. The RU drops to 12Mbps within about 2 minutes of setting it to 54. This morning we tried 6 or 7 different channels. All had the same RSSI of -61 or -62. All behaved the same way. What else should I be looking for to keep the RU sending at 54? Of course the customer receive side is the one that is slow and this link services about 60% of the customers. -- Scott Reed Sr. Systems Engineer GAB Midwest 1-800-363-1544 x4000 Cell: 260-273-7239 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt
What we'd really like to see if a 411 style board with a second Ethernet port. There is good reason for that. 1) 433 boards dont fit in most Rootenna style or very low cost cases 2) There is a big cost different between 433Ah and basic 411, if serving residential. 3) The second Etherenet port is needed for Maintenance. a) When residential home owner is not home, to access the CPE. Provider's tech works days, Customer home at night :-(. Its so much quicker to plug in tech laptop plug directly to second ethernet port, than to run extention cords, new AC power source, and no need to risk damaging a working POE Ethernet port 1 all sealed up and functioning. b) When initial install and alignment is done, it can be done easilly with Laptop right there at radio, without going inside and getting distracted by customer. c) We want a case that lets us remove the POE Ethernet jack without cutting/recrimping it, and we want an easy access hole/plate pre-cut right under the second ethernet port, so its easy to quickly access without opening rootenna case, or without incurring a signficant cost for pass thru jack that is not really needed for a temp eth connection port. I really like the 433AH for our commercial installs, because there is enough margin there to justify stand alone larger cases and stuff. But I'd still like a rock bottom cost CPE only, thats cosmetically pleasing, and high power, that does not sacrifice features. This requires a 411 footprint, and dual ether. I guess looking at the 411, there really isn't any room to place a second Eth, and would require a PCB layout change, so I guess this will never likely occur. But its nice to dream. :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Reed scottr...@onlyinternet.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt I get them with RB411R boards instead of RB411 and R52 for my 2.4 clients. One less connector to fail due to whatever. You can get them with SR/XR9. Streakwave as a very similar, OK, identical product. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I'll order one to try out. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt How about both good price and well built? Order 5+ and you save $50+. http://quicklinkwireless.com/Customkititems.asp?kc=KIT-58-23A-R52eq= I personally have them deliver the parts. I have someone at the office build them and test them (they charge 7/unit and my guy can do 2.5 builds/hr). Some of them they did build as I made a mistake on ordering. They do not use the rj45-ecs but rather put the 411 up to the connectivity hole, though if you ask I expect they will. I absolute can NOT STAND THAT. You can see the link lights, but it is a absolute bear to plug it in (or it was on a grain leg and water tower Saturday before last in the cold windy snow). I love the mounting system. Their only flaw is they are a bit weighty which can be tiring. I have had nothing but success with these antennas. I made be flogged for saying this, but my experience has been better with these then Motorola 5700s (on a different tower). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: Hi All, I've been seeing way to high of a failure rate or dead out of the box problem with these radios. I'm using the 411 versions. One even had an antenna that wasn't connected inside, broken solder joint. Anyone else seeing such high failure rates? It's got to be close to 20 or 25% here. Anyone know of a nice pre-built kit that I can use instead? Price is NOT the top priority here. I'm just using these 5.8 gig versions in places that the 2.4 is maxed out or for higher end business customers. thanks, marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt
Chuck, (3 a/b) - Great idea. Do you sell or have a source for a SOLID cable assembly that is pinned out that way, that is durable to last carring around in the field? We custom punch down similar cable solutions inside enclosures when we want to extend a second ethernet port to an external relay radio, but have to inject power to it. Its all solid secure and tied down inside the case, but not sure they'd stay togeather well, just taking a raw jack and punching it to a cable. For business, this doesn't help, because the goal is to connect to the radio without taking the customer down. But for busness we already justified cost of an standalone large case for a 433AH. For residential, your solution should work really well, because the residential user is not home, the reason for needing to connect at the radio, and therefore no problem with taking down the system to connect the Maintenance cable. (3c) Note, when I said Rootenna, I did not really mean Rootena. I look at Rootenna as being a style not brand. I really meant integrated enclosure. I agree, I really like the ARC entegrated enclosures. I'll add When we realized Rootennas were too flimbsy for our purpose (its a comapny image thing), we looked for higher quality. We found that super high quality with the Teletronic Integrated Enclosures that was also a low price. But we actually stopped using them that much, atleast for residential. The reason is that it was to hard to remove the enclosure from the antenna, in the field, without accidentally breaking the Pigtail, or UFl connector off the mCPI card. It was hard to HOLD the heavy case and antenna both, while unscrewing, and sometimes, that pigtail got yanked. What I like about the ARC system is that that is NOT the case with the ARC. They are sturdy and quality, but because they are squared off in shape and a bit smaller and lighter, its much easier to disassemble in the field, without damaging pigtails. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt I have a fix for your need on part 3a\b\c. (3a/b) We use a cable that has a female RJ45 end, we use that to plug into from the home owner's cable that is run to the inside. We splice the data off and have another RJ45 end for Data only plugged into a laptop. Then one that is combine Data/Power plugging into the CPE. (3c) Use ARC Antennas with the ARC Enclosure. It is a better performing antenna than any Roo. It is the same antenna that is used as an OEM product on many commercial PtP links (Solectek, LigoWave, etc). They are very similar in price. You don't have to cut the cable to access Ethernet. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt What we'd really like to see if a 411 style board with a second Ethernet port. There is good reason for that. 1) 433 boards dont fit in most Rootenna style or very low cost cases 2) There is a big cost different between 433Ah and basic 411, if serving residential. 3) The second Etherenet port is needed for Maintenance. a) When residential home owner is not home, to access the CPE. Provider's tech works days, Customer home at night :-(. Its so much quicker to plug in tech laptop plug directly to second ethernet port, than to run extention cords, new AC power source, and no need to risk damaging a working POE Ethernet port 1 all sealed up and functioning. b) When initial install and alignment is done, it can be done easilly with Laptop right there at radio, without going inside and getting distracted by customer. c) We want a case that lets us remove the POE Ethernet jack without cutting/recrimping it, and we want an easy access hole/plate pre-cut right under the second ethernet port, so its easy to quickly access without opening rootenna case, or without incurring a signficant cost for pass thru jack that is not really needed for a temp eth connection port. I really like the 433AH for our commercial installs, because there is enough margin there to justify stand alone larger cases and stuff. But I'd still like a rock bottom cost CPE only, thats cosmetically pleasing, and high power, that does not sacrifice features. This requires a 411 footprint, and dual ether. I guess looking at the 411, there really isn't any room to place a second Eth, and would require a PCB layout change, so I guess this will never likely occur. But its nice to dream. :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt
We used to ground them when we were using Trango CPE with Canopy SS300. For business and Mikrotik we do, because PVC outside, and Plenum inside, so need the junction anyway. But now with Mikrotik residnetial style outdoor equipment, and connecting to cheap indoor SOHO router, its so darn inexpensive for a CPE, its not worth the time or cost to grounding the CAT5 outdoors anymore. IF we use a Metal Mast for mounting, we still Ground the Mast for lightning protection. As well, with Residential, The CAT5 often needs to get run straight into the attic or sophet. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Dennis Burgess dmburg...@linktechs.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt Don't you ground your installations prior to coming into the house? We have grounding blocks that are just ethernet jacks, and a small 12 volt DC battery and injector to plug right into outside. no splicing required. --- Dennis Burgess, CCNA, Mikrotik Certified Trainer, MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCUME Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik WISP Support Services Office: 314-735-0270 Website: http://www.linktechs.net LIVE On-Line Mikrotik Training - Author of Learn RouterOS -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt What we'd really like to see if a 411 style board with a second Ethernet port. There is good reason for that. 1) 433 boards dont fit in most Rootenna style or very low cost cases 2) There is a big cost different between 433Ah and basic 411, if serving residential. 3) The second Etherenet port is needed for Maintenance. a) When residential home owner is not home, to access the CPE. Provider's tech works days, Customer home at night :-(. Its so much quicker to plug in tech laptop plug directly to second ethernet port, than to run extention cords, new AC power source, and no need to risk damaging a working POE Ethernet port 1 all sealed up and functioning. b) When initial install and alignment is done, it can be done easilly with Laptop right there at radio, without going inside and getting distracted by customer. c) We want a case that lets us remove the POE Ethernet jack without cutting/recrimping it, and we want an easy access hole/plate pre-cut right under the second ethernet port, so its easy to quickly access without opening rootenna case, or without incurring a signficant cost for pass thru jack that is not really needed for a temp eth connection port. I really like the 433AH for our commercial installs, because there is enough margin there to justify stand alone larger cases and stuff. But I'd still like a rock bottom cost CPE only, thats cosmetically pleasing, and high power, that does not sacrifice features. This requires a 411 footprint, and dual ether. I guess looking at the 411, there really isn't any room to place a second Eth, and would require a PCB layout change, so I guess this will never likely occur. But its nice to dream. :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Reed scottr...@onlyinternet.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt I get them with RB411R boards instead of RB411 and R52 for my 2.4 clients. One less connector to fail due to whatever. You can get them with SR/XR9. Streakwave as a very similar, OK, identical product. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I'll order one to try out. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt How about both good price and well built? Order 5+ and you save $50+. http://quicklinkwireless.com/Customkititems.asp?kc=KIT-58-23A-R52eq= I personally have them deliver the parts. I have someone at the office build them and test them (they charge 7/unit and my guy can do 2.5 builds/hr). Some of them they did build as I made a mistake on ordering. They do not use the rj45-ecs but rather put the 411 up to the connectivity hole, though if you ask I expect they will. I absolute can NOT STAND THAT. You can see the link lights, but it is a absolute bear to plug it in (or it was on a grain leg and water tower Saturday before last in the cold windy snow). I love the mounting system. Their only flaw is they are a bit weighty which can be tiring. I have had nothing but success with these antennas. I made be flogged for saying this, but my
Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt
Josh, Really cool. What a great idea to get a radio aligned and tested, BEFORE the indoor CAT5 is finished. How did you make the connector that the Battery fit into? Or did you sabatage an old charger/drill? Truthfully though for reoccuring maintenance, I'd rather use the Power supply that is already in the customers home, with a passive temp junction box the majority of the time. Then I dont have to guess, check, or keep track whether the MT SBC that is inside the enclosure is configured for 20v, 24V, or 48V. Its qwicker to just plug in, then to verify config and then plug-in. Sure if someone is back in the office, its a quick call to find out, but taht is not always the case. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt Tom, Problem solved: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/60247/IMG00079-20100108-1502.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/60247/IMG00081-20100108-1503.jpg That's a 24v power supply. Works with Trango/Canopy ptmp stuff (RP) and Mikrotik/Nanostations (the other way on the switch) Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: What we'd really like to see if a 411 style board with a second Ethernet port. There is good reason for that. 1) 433 boards dont fit in most Rootenna style or very low cost cases 2) There is a big cost different between 433Ah and basic 411, if serving residential. 3) The second Etherenet port is needed for Maintenance. a) When residential home owner is not home, to access the CPE. Provider's tech works days, Customer home at night :-(. Its so much quicker to plug in tech laptop plug directly to second ethernet port, than to run extention cords, new AC power source, and no need to risk damaging a working POE Ethernet port 1 all sealed up and functioning. b) When initial install and alignment is done, it can be done easilly with Laptop right there at radio, without going inside and getting distracted by customer. c) We want a case that lets us remove the POE Ethernet jack without cutting/recrimping it, and we want an easy access hole/plate pre-cut right under the second ethernet port, so its easy to quickly access without opening rootenna case, or without incurring a signficant cost for pass thru jack that is not really needed for a temp eth connection port. I really like the 433AH for our commercial installs, because there is enough margin there to justify stand alone larger cases and stuff. But I'd still like a rock bottom cost CPE only, thats cosmetically pleasing, and high power, that does not sacrifice features. This requires a 411 footprint, and dual ether. I guess looking at the 411, there really isn't any room to place a second Eth, and would require a PCB layout change, so I guess this will never likely occur. But its nice to dream. :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Scott Reed scottr...@onlyinternet.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt I get them with RB411R boards instead of RB411 and R52 for my 2.4 clients. One less connector to fail due to whatever. You can get them with SR/XR9. Streakwave as a very similar, OK, identical product. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: I'll order one to try out. thanks, marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt How about both good price and well built? Order 5+ and you save $50+. http://quicklinkwireless.com/Customkititems.asp?kc=KIT-58-23A-R52eq= I personally have them deliver the parts. I have someone at the office build them and test them (they charge 7/unit and my guy can do 2.5 builds/hr). Some of them they did build as I made a mistake on ordering. They do not use the rj45-ecs but rather put the 411 up to the connectivity hole, though if you ask I expect they will. I absolute can NOT STAND THAT. You can see the link lights, but it is a absolute bear to plug it in (or it was on a grain leg and water tower Saturday before last in the cold windy snow). I love the mounting system. Their only flaw is they are a bit weighty which can be tiring. I have had nothing but success with these antennas. I made be flogged for saying this, but my experience has been better with these then Motorola 5700s
Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt
I would not need more than 2 portable units myself, because I have a small tech staff. Its not really a price issue per unit to me because of that. But if you were to created a partnumber/product of it, I'd guess $30 would be a reasonable street price for something like that, to be attractive enough for every WISP tech to want to buy one.. Unless, it equally worked as a splitter inside cases to feed external relay radios. Then I could see it being used in higher volume. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt If there is a demand for it, we could manufacture some of them. I typically make them. What would you be willing to pay? $10-15 depending on quantity? Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 3:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt Chuck, (3 a/b) - Great idea. Do you sell or have a source for a SOLID cable assembly that is pinned out that way, that is durable to last carring around in the field? We custom punch down similar cable solutions inside enclosures when we want to extend a second ethernet port to an external relay radio, but have to inject power to it. Its all solid secure and tied down inside the case, but not sure they'd stay togeather well, just taking a raw jack and punching it to a cable. For business, this doesn't help, because the goal is to connect to the radio without taking the customer down. But for busness we already justified cost of an standalone large case for a 433AH. For residential, your solution should work really well, because the residential user is not home, the reason for needing to connect at the radio, and therefore no problem with taking down the system to connect the Maintenance cable. (3c) Note, when I said Rootenna, I did not really mean Rootena. I look at Rootenna as being a style not brand. I really meant integrated enclosure. I agree, I really like the ARC entegrated enclosures. I'll add When we realized Rootennas were too flimbsy for our purpose (its a comapny image thing), we looked for higher quality. We found that super high quality with the Teletronic Integrated Enclosures that was also a low price. But we actually stopped using them that much, atleast for residential. The reason is that it was to hard to remove the enclosure from the antenna, in the field, without accidentally breaking the Pigtail, or UFl connector off the mCPI card. It was hard to HOLD the heavy case and antenna both, while unscrewing, and sometimes, that pigtail got yanked. What I like about the ARC system is that that is NOT the case with the ARC. They are sturdy and quality, but because they are squared off in shape and a bit smaller and lighter, its much easier to disassemble in the field, without damaging pigtails. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt I have a fix for your need on part 3a\b\c. (3a/b) We use a cable that has a female RJ45 end, we use that to plug into from the home owner's cable that is run to the inside. We splice the data off and have another RJ45 end for Data only plugged into a laptop. Then one that is combine Data/Power plugging into the CPE. (3c) Use ARC Antennas with the ARC Enclosure. It is a better performing antenna than any Roo. It is the same antenna that is used as an OEM product on many commercial PtP links (Solectek, LigoWave, etc). They are very similar in price. You don't have to cut the cable to access Ethernet. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 2:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt What we'd really like to see if a 411 style board with a second Ethernet port. There is good reason for that. 1) 433 boards dont fit in most Rootenna style or very low cost cases 2) There is a big cost different between 433Ah and basic 411, if serving residential. 3) The second Etherenet port is needed for Maintenance. a) When residential home owner is not home, to access the CPE. Provider's tech works days, Customer home at night :-(. Its so much quicker to plug in tech laptop plug directly to second ethernet port
Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt
Cool. I love this industry, its full of resourceful people. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Ryan Spott rsp...@cspott.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt http://tranzeofaq.com/images/site_survey/images/ ryan On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:54 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Look it got my Name on it even... =) Love it... -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 4:34 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt Look at the picture better. It says patent pending. Zoomed in: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/60247/IMG00079-20100108-1502-zoom.jpg Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 5:25 PM, Eje Gustafsson e...@wisp-router.com wrote: Ryobi one plus have a battery tester that would be simple to modify for this very thing. I think they are less than $15 at HD. It's a cool idea now why didn't I think of that I love my Ryobi One+ tools ;) I better run and file the patent before Josh does for this cool new Ryobi One+ accessory as well preventing Milwakiu and Dewalt users from making a similar for their batteries ;) / Eje -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 3:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt Josh, Really cool. What a great idea to get a radio aligned and tested, BEFORE the indoor CAT5 is finished. How did you make the connector that the Battery fit into? Or did you sabatage an old charger/drill? Truthfully though for reoccuring maintenance, I'd rather use the Power supply that is already in the customers home, with a passive temp junction box the majority of the time. Then I dont have to guess, check, or keep track whether the MT SBC that is inside the enclosure is configured for 20v, 24V, or 48V. Its qwicker to just plug in, then to verify config and then plug-in. Sure if someone is back in the office, its a quick call to find out, but taht is not always the case. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] MT Mikropoynt Tom, Problem solved: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/60247/IMG00079-20100108-1502.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/60247/IMG00081-20100108-1503.jpg That's a 24v power supply. Works with Trango/Canopy ptmp stuff (RP) and Mikrotik/Nanostations (the other way on the switch) Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: What we'd really like to see if a 411 style board with a second Ethernet port. There is good reason for that. 1) 433 boards dont fit in most Rootenna style or very low cost cases 2) There is a big cost different between 433Ah and basic 411, if serving residential. 3) The second Etherenet port is needed for Maintenance. a) When residential home owner is not home, to access the CPE. Provider's tech works days, Customer home at night :-(. Its so much quicker to plug in tech laptop plug directly to second ethernet port, than to run extention cords, new AC power source, and no need to risk damaging a working POE Ethernet port 1 all sealed up and functioning. b) When initial install and alignment is done, it can be done easilly with Laptop right there at radio, without going inside and getting distracted by customer. c) We want a case that lets us remove the POE Ethernet jack without cutting/recrimping it, and we want an easy access hole/plate pre-cut right under the second ethernet port, so its easy to quickly access without opening rootenna case, or without incurring a signficant cost for pass thru jack that is not really needed for a temp eth connection port. I really like the 433AH for our commercial installs, because there is enough margin there to justify stand alone larger cases and stuff. But I'd still like a rock bottom cost CPE only, thats cosmetically pleasing, and high power, that does not sacrifice features. This requires a 411 footprint, and dual ether. I guess looking at the 411, there really isn't any room to place a second Eth, and would require a PCB layout change, so I guess
Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding
I disagree. Maybe I am not impressed with the award benefit, but I am very impressed with the borrower and the Lendor. What that transaction tells us is 1- Prior to First NOFA release many experts predicted awards smaller than 5 mil would not likely be considered. A: Not True. 2- Small providers dont have a chance to win an award in a big palyers game. A: Not True 3- Awards would be wasteful spending and hand outs to those that dont need it. A: Not True 4- We aren't asking for unjust hand-outs, All we really need is a little help!!! A: A small WISP got some help. I'm VERY impressed that NTIA/RUS extended thier valuable time to consider worthy small applications. The other thing is not all affordable equipment is possible to easilly finance through lease companies. For example, Getting a name brand Canopy on a 1yr-3yr lease aint hard, but its not easy finding leasing companies that will touch OEM style gear (MT, STAROS, type), or all equipment needed, and gets harder finding 5 yr and over. I can give an example of a battery for backup system, Who in their right mind would finance a product that dies over time and has no resale value? A RUS grant can cover ALL expenses relating to infrastructure critical for its operation. It also should be noted that because Aloha got a loan instead of grant he's allowed to use revenues from subscriber to go towards some operating costs to support the network also. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding Hi, I have to say I'm not impressed... $106,000 loan could have been gotten with a leasing company, without all the government ties and restrictions. Travis Microserv Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Aloha Broadband, a WISP in Hawaii that runs 100% StarOS, was one of the first 18 companies to receive broadband stimulus money. Looks like the total scope of the project was also a lot more reasonable than some of the other ones. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jgqG0W8KNsbeVueTYPRDKYHqy8twD9CLQMJ02 Matt Larsen vistabeam.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding
Travis, But, you and I are grading different topics.. I agree with your point, its questionable whether it was worth accepting the money on those terms. My point was that NTIA/RUS was not discriminating against small providers and giving them equal opportunity to consider that decission. Thats a good thing. I personally would rather get a private loan without the strings, If I can. But thats the whole point of the program isn't it?. If you can get a loan, you have no business applying for the BTOP/BIP program, because part of the requirement is you have to show NEED. IF a bank will lend for the project, for what ever reason, you really dont have NEED do you? Those that truly have need, may not qualify for private lending for the project, and may be more willing to make compromises to get the money. With that said, I have no knowledge of what Aloha's financial position or justification was. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding I guess we'll wait and see if they think it was worth it 2-3 years from now. If not a leasing company, any bank would have probably loaned $106,000 toward this company if they put EVERYTHING on the line like they did for this loan. Yes, they get a better interest rate, but so what? If 3% vs. 6% is a deal breaker, you should probably be finding another business to be in. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: I disagree. Maybe I am not impressed with the award benefit, but I am very impressed with the borrower and the Lendor. What that transaction tells us is 1- Prior to First NOFA release many experts predicted awards smaller than 5 mil would not likely be considered. A: Not True. 2- Small providers dont have a chance to win an award in a big palyers game. A: Not True 3- Awards would be wasteful spending and hand outs to those that dont need it. A: Not True 4- We aren't asking for unjust hand-outs, All we really need is a little help!!! A: A small WISP got some help. I'm VERY impressed that NTIA/RUS extended thier valuable time to consider worthy small applications. The other thing is not all affordable equipment is possible to easilly finance through lease companies. For example, Getting a name brand Canopy on a 1yr-3yr lease aint hard, but its not easy finding leasing companies that will touch OEM style gear (MT, STAROS, type), or all equipment needed, and gets harder finding 5 yr and over. I can give an example of a battery for backup system, Who in their right mind would finance a product that dies over time and has no resale value? A RUS grant can cover ALL expenses relating to infrastructure critical for its operation. It also should be noted that because Aloha got a loan instead of grant he's allowed to use revenues from subscriber to go towards some operating costs to support the network also. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding Hi, I have to say I'm not impressed... $106,000 loan could have been gotten with a leasing company, without all the government ties and restrictions. Travis Microserv Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Aloha Broadband, a WISP in Hawaii that runs 100% StarOS, was one of the first 18 companies to receive broadband stimulus money. Looks like the total scope of the project was also a lot more reasonable than some of the other ones. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jgqG0W8KNsbeVueTYPRDKYHqy8twD9CLQMJ02 Matt Larsen vistabeam.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM
Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding
Yes, that is a very good point. BUT... He can use the profit from the deployed network to pay those auditing fees. I'd be more concerned about the statement that service was for a community of 600 and he might need to build to serve everyone. $106k is a bit tight to cover 600 people. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding A precondition to accepting stimulus money is to submit to an annual 3rd party CPA audit (which generally costs $10-15k / year) -- he's probably going to lose money on the deal... Oops... -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 8:36 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding Hi, I have to say I'm not impressed... $106,000 loan could have been gotten with a leasing company, without all the government ties and restrictions. Travis Microserv Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: Aloha Broadband, a WISP in Hawaii that runs 100% StarOS, was one of the first 18 companies to receive broadband stimulus money. Looks like the total scope of the project was also a lot more reasonable than some of the other ones. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jgqG0W8KNsbeVueTYPRDKYHqy8twD9CLQMJ02 Matt Larsen vistabeam.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding
Because... Conventional means do not have to consider public good. Conventional means only needs to consider Profits for Stockholders. There is more to life than short term stock holder profits, when looking at economic development, putting people back to work, and curring the digital divide. For example, if someone is out of work, Tax payers are going to be paying for it whether its via Welfare or ARRA, might as well get something back for the Tax payer's money. Statistically, Peer to peer lending average defaults in the 5% level. Credit Card lending has reported defaults in the double digits. We can historically look at RUS loans, which may have had 1 default in its history. Just because PRivate Lenders wont take the risk lending to the type profile that the Feds will through ARRA, does not necessarilly mean that they will be bad loans. History shows otherwise. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton b...@belwave.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding That's part of the problem I have with these government handout programs. If you can't qualify for a loan through conventional means then why should the taxpayer be put on the hook? Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 9:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding Travis, But, you and I are grading different topics.. I agree with your point, its questionable whether it was worth accepting the money on those terms. My point was that NTIA/RUS was not discriminating against small providers and giving them equal opportunity to consider that decission. Thats a good thing. I personally would rather get a private loan without the strings, If I can. But thats the whole point of the program isn't it?. If you can get a loan, you have no business applying for the BTOP/BIP program, because part of the requirement is you have to show NEED. IF a bank will lend for the project, for what ever reason, you really dont have NEED do you? Those that truly have need, may not qualify for private lending for the project, and may be more willing to make compromises to get the money. With that said, I have no knowledge of what Aloha's financial position or justification was. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding I guess we'll wait and see if they think it was worth it 2-3 years from now. If not a leasing company, any bank would have probably loaned $106,000 toward this company if they put EVERYTHING on the line like they did for this loan. Yes, they get a better interest rate, but so what? If 3% vs. 6% is a deal breaker, you should probably be finding another business to be in. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: I disagree. Maybe I am not impressed with the award benefit, but I am very impressed with the borrower and the Lendor. What that transaction tells us is 1- Prior to First NOFA release many experts predicted awards smaller than 5 mil would not likely be considered. A: Not True. 2- Small providers dont have a chance to win an award in a big palyers game. A: Not True 3- Awards would be wasteful spending and hand outs to those that dont need it. A: Not True 4- We aren't asking for unjust hand-outs, All we really need is a little help!!! A: A small WISP got some help. I'm VERY impressed that NTIA/RUS extended thier valuable time to consider worthy small applications. The other thing is not all affordable equipment is possible to easilly finance through lease companies. For example, Getting a name brand Canopy on a 1yr-3yr lease aint hard, but its not easy finding leasing companies that will touch OEM style gear (MT, STAROS, type), or all equipment needed, and gets harder finding 5 yr and over. I can give an example of a battery for backup system, Who in their right mind would finance a product that dies over time and has no resale value? A RUS grant can cover ALL expenses relating to infrastructure critical for its operation. It also should be noted that because Aloha got a loan instead of grant he's allowed to use revenues from subscriber to go towards some operating costs to support the network also. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 9:35 AM Subject
Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding
Travis, Yes... and to go a step further, if the business doesn't qualify for a bank loan (or leasing, or whatever) then they probably shouldn't be in business in the first place. So you are telling me that I have no right to be in business? The first 9 years I couldn't qualify for loans. I have been in the Wireless business for 10 years now and doing really well for myself from my perspective, and helping many people. I didn't need a Bank's endorsement to accomplish that, and I did just fine for my customers without them. A false assumption, that Banks are capable of determining who is or isn't a viable business. I'll admit Banks are good at determining whether a company falls within a broad pre-defined profile, and RISK can be estimated by looking at the average tracked for that profile type. But profiling is still a very innacurate way to measure the merits of an individual business, as many businesses dont fit into a profile and should not be measured the same way. This country's method of evaluating credit worthiness is the biggest sham, that I have ever witnessed. If you can't show a profit and make a business work, getting a loan isn't going to fix that problem. That I agree with. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding Yes... and to go a step further, if the business doesn't qualify for a bank loan (or leasing, or whatever) then they probably shouldn't be in business in the first place. If you can't show a profit and make a business work, getting a loan isn't going to fix that problem. Travis Microserv Brad Belton wrote: That's part of the problem I have with these government handout programs. If you can't qualify for a loan through conventional means then why should the taxpayer be put on the hook? Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 9:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding Travis, But, you and I are grading different topics.. I agree with your point, its questionable whether it was worth accepting the money on those terms. My point was that NTIA/RUS was not discriminating against small providers and giving them equal opportunity to consider that decission. Thats a good thing. I personally would rather get a private loan without the strings, If I can. But thats the whole point of the program isn't it?. If you can get a loan, you have no business applying for the BTOP/BIP program, because part of the requirement is you have to show NEED. IF a bank will lend for the project, for what ever reason, you really dont have NEED do you? Those that truly have need, may not qualify for private lending for the project, and may be more willing to make compromises to get the money. With that said, I have no knowledge of what Aloha's financial position or justification was. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] StarOS Operator gets Stimulus Funding I guess we'll wait and see if they think it was worth it 2-3 years from now. If not a leasing company, any bank would have probably loaned $106,000 toward this company if they put EVERYTHING on the line like they did for this loan. Yes, they get a better interest rate, but so what? If 3% vs. 6% is a deal breaker, you should probably be finding another business to be in. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: I disagree. Maybe I am not impressed with the award benefit, but I am very impressed with the borrower and the Lendor. What that transaction tells us is 1- Prior to First NOFA release many experts predicted awards smaller than 5 mil would not likely be considered. A: Not True. 2- Small providers dont have a chance to win an award in a big palyers game. A: Not True 3- Awards would be wasteful spending and hand outs to those that dont need it. A: Not True 4- We aren't asking for unjust hand-outs, All we really need is a little help!!! A: A small WISP got some help. I'm VERY impressed that NTIA/RUS extended thier valuable time to consider worthy small applications. The other thing is not all affordable equipment is possible to easilly finance through lease companies. For example, Getting a name brand Canopy on a 1yr-3yr lease aint hard, but its not easy finding leasing companies that will touch OEM style gear (MT, STAROS, type), or all equipment needed, and gets harder finding 5 yr
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Charles, Excellent comment. I'd argue though that its not a matter of customer count, but more about a revenue threshold to justify staying in business. I believe the first threshold is about $15k monthly. Unlessthat threashold is met, its not cost effective to stay in business, but if it is met, usually the owner can get an ROI over time if they let it sit, and stay a one man show. Who knows if they'll ever get a full return on their investment, but money is sunk, and justified to let it continue because ongoing revenue pays as much as a day job, so let it ride on. But your point was well heard, how do you get to the next level?. The next level might be around the $40k monthly range. Now one can add a couple employees, and have decent capacity and coverage, core costs covered, be competitive and be cash flow possitive doing it. Life is easier, profit is better, sustainabilty likely achieved. Now theirs a chance the owner can get a decent ROI over time, and clearly pays better than the day job. But your point was well heard, and again ask, how do you get to the next level?. The think is, if the owner stays as is focuses on new customers (rev) and not buildout (new costs), its easilly sailing. In past years, maybe 10 new business subs were needed to break even on a tower cost. A lot of work little reward. But now, 1 new business subs means it can cover a new car payment of luxury. But 1 more new business sub just bought you a beautiful new Flat screen TV. But 1 new business sub now makes a sizable monthly payment towards paying off finance debt. The owner sees the light, why change the new found pattern? Why grow? Or more importantly, Why spend? Even with the Free Grant money, is it worth it? The requirement is that the recipient CAN NOT use the revenue/profit to pay themselves. All funds have to be spent on supporting the capitol infrastructure for the next 3 years. Why would a WISP want to divert all their free time the next 3 years working for free AGAIN, instead of working on the easy sales on their pre-existing network that instantly translates to PROFIT and ROI today? Its costly to grow, whether its with your own money, or subsidized money. And its surely tough to decide to start all over again, going back into investment mode instead of payback mode. One of my favorite stories is of an experience I had back in 1997, waiting to pickup an order from a Computer Distributer. I ran into an old rival buddy of mine, we both just started our own businesses a year or two before. I was like How ya doing, we got like 4 CNEs now, He was like, yeah, well we got 5 techs now He was like Well we broke 1 mil this year. I was like Well, we broke 2 mil last year. Then an old guy waiting at the counter stepped over, joined in and said, Well, I've been in business for 15 years now, I have 1 employee he's been with me for 10, all I ever needed. I have a beautiful home, a great wife, time for my kids, you can see my nice car out front, my customers love me, I treat them fairly and my quality is top notch, I got plenty of work, probably half-mil yearly, and get to choose which work I accept, but most of all I have peice of mind, and I sleep really well at night. So who's the winner? We thanked our new friend for his insight. My friend and I looked at our watches, and he just realizes he's late for his meeting with his divorse attorney, and I just realize I'm about to miss another kids soccer game, and off we went in our clunkers. I learned something that day, and made a change. Now 13 years later, I look into the mirror, and I see a resemblance of that guy, and I'm fine with that. I'm not saying, dont spend, dont invest, dont evolve, I'm just saying, bigger isn't always better. When it comes to WiMax, I ask the same question as Non-WiMax. How is this choice going to make me more money today, with less effort? If the Plan shows it can, all is good. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu c...@cticonnect.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a reality and requirement in many situations. When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business
Re: [WISPA] Want Wireless Broadband Today? Try a WISP
Yeah, What a GREAT arcticle! Way to go guys. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Want Wireless Broadband Today? Try a WISP Marlon has always been my hero! -RickG On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Well...11 months ago... =) He's still famous to me! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Way to go, Marlon! Your 15 minutes of fame has been officially extended. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 5:50 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Want Wireless Broadband Today? Try a WISP http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2340369,00.asp - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 2010: One Question for WISPs
For 2010, the short term, I am much more optimistic. Demand is as strong as ever. Technology is evolving, to enable us to better compete. Every day,WISPs are 1 day closer to profitabilty than the day before. But there is also a down side. I'm less optimistic on the long term. Customer perception and demand for faster speeds for less money is growing, and commodity providers (RBOCs/Cable Cos) are starting to work further in to WISP served territories, to put on the competitive pressure. WISPs are less certain about longevity of the market, and will be looking for quicker ROI, to reduce RISK. WISPs will do well in 2010 because they are adding custoemrs faster than they are loosing them, and better possitoned to do so. But, the bad news is they are also loosing customers to competition. This has the potential to harm hardware purchases, because when WISPs loose customers, they often relocate the gear they already own. Manufacturers that increase sales most will be the ones that are offering new products with enough new value (capacity) to justify the replacement of gear already live in place. WISPs will be more concience about excellerating ROI and less interested in long term investment. There is no doubt 2010 will be better than 2009. But what about 2012 2013? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 11:47 AM Subject: [WISPA] 2010: One Question for WISPs Happy New Year folks. One simple multiple choice question: For 2010, are you more or less optimistic than you were in 2009? A - Much more B - Somewhat more C - Same D - More pessimistic If you'd care to explain your answer, that's be great. Thank, Patrick Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] domain spam attack - JoeJob
You cant do anything to stop blocking them from being forged and sent, but there are things you can do to help notify other ISPs what servers are authorized to send mail for your domain, so that they can use smarter methods to block and allow SPAM. For example, you can use a Sender Policy Framework record in your Domain headers. Some recipient servers have different rules on whether they just drop or return SPAM, dependant on detection method. IF similar methods are already being done, and the messages are being sent back to you after being blocked, and getting flooded with the bounce messages, probably not much can do, other than to set up a temp rule to drop those specific bounce message group. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:31 AM Subject: [WISPA] domain spam attack - JoeJob Does anyone have any experience with having an attack done on your domain where the sender spoofs the header and then puts your domain in it as the sender. I think this is called a JoeJob and we are getting 1000's of the bounced messages because of it and are now having difficulty sending to some of the bigger email providers like aol, yahoo, and hotmail. I tracked the originating IP down to somewhere in Asia and reported them to the holder of the Whois information there. Anything else I can do? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] domain spam attack - JoeJob
The watermark idea sounds like a clever idea, and worthy solution. Only thing, should consider whether you let your mail users send through other providers during travel or secondary locations. (Would also apply to SPF to some extent). If they send legitimate mail from their hotel or Home circuit (if it was originally an Office account/circuit with you, but bring laptop home also), which home provider blocks SMTP excpet for using Access provider's SMTP server, the legitimate sender will no longer get notice when a send was unsuccessful. SMTP Auth is not always a winning solution, when Port 25 gets blocked. So it boils down to... Do you want to set policy to only support mail if sent through your own mail server? Thats a personal decission. But it could also be addressed by how the watermark gets delt with. For example, what if the watermark rule was used, BUT it accepted the first 5 bounces within a define period of time, and then auto blocked all future bounces for a defined period of time? That would be better because it allows getting a few of the bounces for management, but also limits the number of harmful bounces. We use similar techniques with Blacklisting. We let first few through, and then when threshhold is exceeded we temporarilly blacklist sender for like 12 hours. That is very effective in managing SPAM and DDOS. Unforunteately, it is not a good way to prevent poor reputation ratings that rely on other provider's systems that accept and weight to heavilly What is SPAM submissions from their end users. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Terry Hickey thic...@rockies.net To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] domain spam attack - JoeJob I use MailScanner http://www.mailscanner.info/ . It allows you to put a watermark on all messages leaving your mailserver. If a bounce come in without the watermark , it trashes it . works like a charm for exactly that. Terry - Original Message - From: Nick Olsen n...@brevardwireless.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] domain spam attack - JoeJob Not really. Being in Asia and all. We have had this happen to us before. Just have to wait for them to go away. Nick Olsen Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x106 From: Kurt Fankhauser k...@wavelinc.com Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 10:32 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] domain spam attack - JoeJob Does anyone have any experience with having an attack done on your domain where the sender spoofs the header and then puts your domain in it as the sender. I think this is called a JoeJob and we are getting 1000's of the bounced messages because of it and are now having difficulty sending to some of the bigger email providers like aol, yahoo, and hotmail. I tracked the originating IP down to somewhere in Asia and reported them to the holder of the Whois information there. Anything else I can do? Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
with and accept in order to also have the highly valuable higher spectral efficiency that MIMO might deliver? Its possible that Wimax-D might not be the leader in spectral efficiency anymore. At minimum, I can argue that MIMO systems will clearly be putting the price pressure on WiMax vendors, or for that matter any Vendor stuck on legacy single stream RF designs. I'd argue MIMO in 3650 could be very attractive even if in Dual Pol config, simply because there is so little spectrum, and starting new, the RF community could be made to conform to dual pol designs easier. I can tell you, I personally will not pass judgement one way or the other on this topic. What I will say is interesting new dynamics are being explored, and we are testing technology. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89, capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole). 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum Analysis, and a bit of hassle added. 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of 25 mbps. 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G. 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps. 7) Legacy DSSS TDD - $1300, 10mbps In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax. But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the line-up. Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than Wimax, dependant on how you look at it. Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money? Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different game. Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE. Its inevidable that LTE will extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e will help our exit strategy, anymore. Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff. So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history? Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP market's expectations? Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets. Arguably, Intel could reach the same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP cost to sub $2000. Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when Grant programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years, beyond what the private funded operators would normally allow? Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove transit low cost. Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market, and if you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower their price and up their game. I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when its being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids, its a new game. I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the market that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle. Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but where manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price point they can get, without compromising advanced features. History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco. Eventually Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some capacity. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
I read the Moto 802.16e MIMO spec. I found it interesting that receive sensitivy for QAM64 was -89. That is awesome, compared to wifi OFDM of about -68. Doesn't help with the noise floor SNR requirements though. I also found it insightful that the 802.16e model AUTO shifted from MIMO A to B. Its uses Dual Pol methodology. (A = same data send on each pol for higher receive signal and NLOS penetration, B = different data sent on each pol for double throughput, but no link budget improvement) On the 430 5.8Ghz OFDM line, I had heard that it was going to be limited to integrated antenna CPE and Verticle Pol only. Is that true? Or will it have an external antenna CPE option? I know a Beehive can be put on the 10dbi ant to make it higher, but it would still be discouraging if product prevented from using high end parabolic dishes. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the mark. I hope it's right for Moto sake :-) Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Soon as in q1 or q2 IIRC $350~ SM $3500~ AP Specs are in the website under 320 series Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: moto Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are talking about comming out with? In WISP time, there is a big difference. Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current Canopy level price points. But that is an if. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cc: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear Less? Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo Sent from my Motorola Startac... On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote: Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)? All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since those are only applicable to licensed bands. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Michael Baird Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off list I would appreciate it. Regards Michael Baird --- --- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG
Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
Patrick, Just for the record, let me say I realize there are many little details between WiMax and Wifi that can translate to real big differences in value proposition gain for Wimax, after all said and done. There is no doubt in my mind that Wimax-D price tags for top quality gear can results in a reasonable ROI for those targeting commercial markets. More so when a company graduates from mompop size operation to a company that has to be able to scale easilly. But it has never really mattered what the profit or revenue potential was for using a product. At the end of the day operators dont pay more than they have to pay for anything. No business does. As an example, its ludacris that I pay more for one of my core roof rights sites than I do for the transit fiber that serves my entire foot print of customers made possible by 24 cell sites. But I pay less for transit, because there is competition between vendors, and I can. Its irrelevent that the transit should be worth a higher percentage of my revenue. As well, I pay more than I should for that one high priced roof, because there was competition amongst buyers, and I legitimately needed that space. Clearly in 3.65ghz, there is an immediate opportunity for manufacturers to hold on to high margins for longer, and justify them. But... I still stand behind my core point. The dynamics are changing. Prices are falling, and low price gear is starting to become more feature rich, closer to a WiMax product, tolerable to scale an operation. The gap between Wifi and Wimax is shrinking. It will be an interesting year in wireless technology again this year. My 2010 New Years Wish is that maybe in 2010, 80Ghz manufacturers will step up to make progress equivellent or in line with Licensed 6-23G PTP and 3.5-5.8G PtMP manufacturers that made major advancements in 2009. The technology is there, I just hope our industry accomplishes the price point needed for mass scale in time, before companies like ATT get fiber to every home by 2015 :-) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling and our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that cell. The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a double play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU. Patrick Leary Aperto Networks 813.426.4230 mobile -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89, capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole). 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum Analysis, and a bit of hassle added. 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of 25 mbps. 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G. 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps. 7) Legacy DSSS TDD - $1300, 10mbps In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax. But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the line-up. Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than Wimax, dependant on how you look at it. Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money? Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid. But thats a different game. Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE. Its inevidable that LTE will extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e will help our exit strategy, anymore. Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff. So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history? Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP market's expectations? Surely, its technically possible
Re: [WISPA] ptp 600 questions
What do Moto PTPs sell for now? Back in the day when it was Orthogon (both Spectra and Gemini) it was a small fortune ($12-$15k) for a full speed model, and cheaper to do a licensed link if there were not any challenging NLOS problems.. Has Moto dropped the price accross the line, or is it still priced high? I was just wondering because the equivellent of the Spectra was leading spectral efficientcy, and wondering how that is comparing now to new Mimo class PtP gear. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marco Coelho coelh...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 11:33 AM Subject: [WISPA] ptp 600 questions Does anyone know how to disable IDFS on Moto PTP600 equipment? I'm trying to do some lab tests and this would save me some time. Marco -- Marco C. Coelho Argon Technologies Inc. POB 875 Greenville, TX 75403-0875 903-455-5036 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] 11 Ghz Trango Antenna Aligment
Its hard to advise on this. You'd have to test the radio on the ground connected by a attenuated coupler to know if teh radio was output powering correctly or not. We ahve ran into this before, and the answer was always alignment. Sometimes, we simply started over from scratch, and finally fine tuned it to reach the correct alignment. All our links were 10 miles. One thing to remember is that alignment is NOT always symetrical. Just because one side is -42 does not mean both sides are in perfect alignment. You could be picking up signal on one end from a bounce, for example. Or picking up on a side lobe. But at the end of the day, we just kept trying both verticle and horizonal until we got it right. We had one time where we were 10 db off, where we aligned side A, and thought Side A was good because side A could easilly visually see Side B. We messed with Side B's alignment for hours with no success, assuming it was side B that was out of alignment because Side B was on a tower and being aligned by a climber that had never visually seen side A, and one of our techs was on side A. We went back and re-aligned side A, and we picked up another 5 db. It was side A that was out-of-alignment. We then went back to side B and re-aligned, and side B was now able to be re-aligned to get 5 db more better. We now had symetrical signal on both sides. My point here is that one side of a link can not be optimally aligned if the far side is out-of-alignment at teh time it is being aligned. Sometimes it takes going back and realigning both sides. If you are getting 10db off, my first thought is both sides are probably out-of alignment a slight bit. Again, the fact that you are getting -42 on one side could be fooling you to believe one side is aligned when it is not fully. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com To: motor...@afmug.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 12:26 PM Subject: [WISPA] 11 Ghz Trango Antenna Aligment Hey Guys We are trying to fine tune a 8 mile 11 Ghz Link, expected rssi is -42, We got -43 in one end, -52 on the other end We have aligned both ends for hours to no avail. Bad radio on one end? To those with experience with the Trango Antennas on 11 ghz how many turns on the fien tuning turnbuckle equals 1 deg? Antenan beamwidth is 3.6 deg so at 8 miles I have a .38 miles openning Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. 787.273.4143 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wireless backhauls for Cell Carriers
Clearwire/Sprint gobbling up licensed spectrum for their backhauls in my opinion. It's a very real concern in markets where Clearwire has deployed... and is only going to become more of a concern going forward. 60GHz and 80GHz are going to get a big boost though. Agreed. Yeah, only thing is... 6-23Ghz is $13000 per 10 miles, and MMW is $30k per 1 mile. Cheaper to lay fiber. Wish more of those 80Ghz manufacturers would get rid of that unnecessaary markup, and start selling at 60Ghz prices, which they should. There is a huge potential for 80Ghz, if the manufacturers would let it occur. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wireless backhauls for Cell Carriers Don, Unless your backhaul can support TDM natively and can deliver over 500Mbps just to them (which from what I understand the carriers are really believing they will need), I don't think the average carrier would be interested in collocating if that is what you were thinking of. The more immediate concern to WISP's should be carriers like Clearwire/Sprint gobbling up licensed spectrum for their backhauls in my opinion. It's a very real concern in markets where Clearwire has deployed... and is only going to become more of a concern going forward. 60GHz and 80GHz are going to get a big boost though. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 3:57 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wireless backhauls for Cell Carriers Some of us have discussed doing that but it takes more than just a few of us. If enough were on board it would be a win/win for those involved. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Don Renner Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Wireless backhauls for Cell Carriers A coordinated effort by WISPA to provide some of the necessary backhauls, seems like a good idea. http://www.rcrwireless.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091223/INFRASTRUCTUR E/912219995/ Don Renner NetsurfUSA, Inc. 8550 W. Main St. French Lick, IN 47432 812-936-4514 Office 812-936-2006 Fax 812-521-1876 Cell dren...@netsurfusa.net mailto:dren...@helixtec.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Wireless backhauls for Cell Carriers
I agree carriers are askign for Ethernet now. I had a long talk with Sprint's lead engineer about this two years ago. Ironically, I was argueing I thought they were crazy to want Etherent, and he replied We want it for the same reason you want it CDMA-based carriers for example have stringent clocking requirements for their TDM that doesn't appear solvable with TDD radios. I cant say I agree with that statement. I'd argue that TDD generally solves timing issues that CDMA cant deliver. Unless you are comparing TDD wireless to Fiber, and timing issues over large number of hops. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 9:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wireless backhauls for Cell Carriers That doesn't seem inline with any of the RFPs. Generally speaking, the carriers that want TDM only want it for voice and generally don't require more than 5 T1s for voice. Almost all of the carriers now seek Ethernet for for data. Almost always, the request is between 10Mbps and 100Mbps per tower. Not to say that it is easy. CDMA-based carriers for example have stringent clocking requirements for their TDM that doesn't appear solvable with TDD radios. Further, the carriers that want Ethernet want straight layer2 between their tower and MSO. This generally means that the aggregate amount of backhaul exceeds radio capability the further away from the MSO you get. Unless you have a fiber partner or have fiber yourself then forget it. -Matt On Dec 23, 2009, at 6:06 PM, 3-dB Networks wrote: Don, Unless your backhaul can support TDM natively and can deliver over 500Mbps just to them (which from what I understand the carriers are really believing they will need), I don't think the average carrier would be interested in collocating if that is what you were thinking of. The more immediate concern to WISP's should be carriers like Clearwire/Sprint gobbling up licensed spectrum for their backhauls in my opinion. It's a very real concern in markets where Clearwire has deployed... and is only going to become more of a concern going forward. 60GHz and 80GHz are going to get a big boost though. Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com dan...@3-db.net -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 3:57 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wireless backhauls for Cell Carriers Some of us have discussed doing that but it takes more than just a few of us. If enough were on board it would be a win/win for those involved. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Don Renner Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 5:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Wireless backhauls for Cell Carriers A coordinated effort by WISPA to provide some of the necessary backhauls, seems like a good idea. http://www.rcrwireless.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091223/INFRASTRUCTUR E/912219995/ Don Renner NetsurfUSA, Inc. 8550 W. Main St. French Lick, IN 47432 812-936-4514 Office 812-936-2006 Fax 812-521-1876 Cell dren...@netsurfusa.net mailto:dren...@helixtec.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives
Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection
Have they relaxed the rules on certification? No they have not. Most likely Ubiquiti has done this to avoid having to put peak power limits on their radio hardware. 26db radio + 7 dbi omni = 33db, less than 36db allowable limit. If they included larger sector antennas to be certified with the hardware, they might get asked to hardset reduce max power of the radios, to comply with FCC EIRP limits for that specific configuration. However, if a professional installer uses a higher gain antenns, such as a 20db sector, and manually sets the transmit power of the radio down to 16db, they are still within legal Part-15 EIRP rules. We've been through this before... individually the parts are FCC certified under modular component rules (example a mpci card in a laptop) and that might be all thats necessary to allow the parts to be legally sold and distributed. The same rules that would apply to StarOS, Mikrotik, or any OEM product apply in the same way to Ubiquiti. Allthough it might be evading the issue through a loop hole, it is the only possible way to enable a single product to be interchangeable between both a PTP and PTMP use, and not have the PTP use severally compromised when used in PTP. It should be noted that in 5.8G a CPE is allowed to follow PTP rules because it is being used in a PTP way, so a 30dbi antenna is certified for use on the CPE of a PtMP system. That is my take on it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubiquiti PTMP Antenna Selection Is that saying any antenna with less than 30dBi gain is within the rules? Have they relaxed the rules on certification? Just curious. At 12:04 PM 12/15/2009, Matt wrote: According to Ubiquiti themselves and the FCC: This equipment is required to be professionally installed The device has been designed to operate with the antennas listed below and having a maximum gain of 30dBi. Antennas not included in this list or having a gain greater than 30dBi are strictly prohibited for use with this device. The required antenna impedance is 50 ohms ... list deleted WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 5/15/2009 6:16 AM WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
