[Emc-users] A correction to Re: Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

Tom, please read the last part. Going to a 10.7 mm drill for M12 x 1.5
is a good move, and may fix the problem.

On 23.01.16 11:48, andy pugh wrote:
> On 23 January 2016 at 11:28, Erik Christiansen  
> wrote:
> >
> >> The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, so I am very
> >> close (0.008” difference).
> >
> > That only gives 60% thread engagement, if counting on my fingers is
> > working for me.

I was wrong there, see below.

> Most digital calipers seem to have a table on the back. Mine says
> 10.2mm for M12 x 1.75
> (Which is no help, as this is M12 x 1.5)
> M10 x 1.5 is given as 8.5, which ties in well with the 10.5mm
> suggested for M12 x 1.5.

This is what I use:

   
   Metric Coarse  | BS 4168 Clearance hole:
| |  Type of fit:
   Size Drill  ECore  |  Close Medium   Free
    
   M2   1.70  61%   1.51  |
   M2.5 2.15  63%   1.95  |   WARNING:
   M3   2.60  65%   2.39  |  3.2   3.4  3.6   2.5mm drill -> 82%.
   M4   3.40  70%   3.14  |  4.3   4.5  4.8 
   M5   4.40  61%   4.02  |  5.3   5.5  5.8   With a nut length of
   M6   5.20  65%   4.70  |  6.4   6.6  7.0   1.5 * diameter, 50% 
   M8   6.90  72%   6.47  |  8.4   9.0 10.0   engagement is stronger
   M10  8.70  71%   8.16  | 10.5  11.0 12.0   than the external thread.
   M12 10.50  70%   9.85  | 13.0  14.0 15.0
   M16 14.25  71%  13.55  |   For CI and thin sheet,
   -- stick near 75%.
 
   Or in general: # d is full thread depth.
   Drill Size = OD - (E*2d)   # E is e.g. 0.65
  # d = kP , where P is thread pitch.
 
   Or transposed for E:E = (OD - Drill_Size)/2d
 
k is:ISO Metric   0.613
 UNF/UNC  0.613
   # British Association BA   0.600
   # BSW, BSF, ME (32 & 40 TPI), Whitworth forms  0.640
   # BSB, and BSP parallel.
 


 So for M12 x 1.5:

 d = 0.613 * 1.5 = 0.9195
 E = (12 - 10.5)/(2 * 0.9195) = 81.5%

 That's too much, especially for a deep hole. The 10.7 mm hole:

 E = (12 - 10.7)/(2 * 0.9195) = 70.6%

 would give Tom's spindle a fair chance.

 (In my previous post, I forgot that the above table is for Metric
 Coarse, i.e. 1.75 mm pitch @ M12. :-(

 What would Andy's 10.2 mm hole give with M12 x 1.75?:

 d = 0.613 * 1.75 = 1.07275
 E = (12 - 10.2)/(2 * 1.07275) = 84% 

 That's hard on the tap and spindle. Much better is:

 E = (12 - 10.5)/(2 * 1.07275) = 70%

 Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] How to find old Bosch drive manuals?

[alex chiosso]

Hi Marius.
Do you have a picture of the drive and the whole electrical cabinet ?
The drive should be a Bosch Servodyn but as you noticed it's quite
difficult to find out any docs.
This mainly because the SPM coding for Bosch (Rexroth-Indramat) means a
generic usage for Spindle application.
Do you have any electrical drawings about the machine you're refering to ?
Is the spindle command (from the cnc) analog , digital (fieldbus) or what
else ?

Regards :-)

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:41 AM, Marius Alksnys 
wrote:

> I am looking to retrofit machine(s) with LinuxCNC which have spindle
> drive with writings on it:
> Bosch SPM 25-T/A
> 052313 - 109
> DC 520V 25A
>
> Can't find any docs for it.
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] THC

[John Thornton]

Yes, when I get some stock in.

JT

On 1/22/2016 6:05 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> John,
>
> Is the THCAD card going to be available in your store?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
> On 1/22/2016 5:57 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I use the Mesa THCAD card to convert volts to frequency then the thc
>> component to control my Z while cutting. About 1/5th the cost of that.
>> But if your using a Ox/Acc torch then you need that. For plasma you want
>> to control the height based on tip voltage.
>>
>> JT
>>
>> On 1/22/2016 3:56 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>>> Second question of the day.
>>>
>>> A buddy of mine is getting ready to build a CNC plasma table. He has
>>> asked me to help with the LinuxCNC stuff and the CNC stuff in general.
>>> He is good with fabbing parts but not fully up to speed on the CNC side
>>> of things.
>>>
>>> I thought the following THC looked like a good
>>> piece.http://cnc4pc.com/motion-control/torch-height-control/non-contact-height-sensor-for-plasma-and-oxy-fuel-cutter.html#prodtabs-4
>>>
>>> Has anyone used this? Do you see any issues with it and LinuxCNC? What
>>> THC do you recommend?
>>>
>>> The machine will be a stepper gantry with two motors on the X axis.
>>> Planning on software stepgen to start.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jim
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 23 January 2016 at 11:18, Peter Blodow  wrote:
> Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal
> thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12, or 6 -
> 1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.

This works for any 60 degree thread, so is good for US screws too. You
just need to convert TPI to inch pitch.

So, 1/2" x 16 tpi? 1/2" - 1/16" = 7/16" tapping drill.

It doesn't work so well for proper Whitworth threads. :-)

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[John Thornton]

The general tap hole size goes out the window with many materials and 
thread depths and brass as you know is not like tapping cold butter...

JT

On 1/23/2016 5:48 AM, andy pugh wrote:
> On 23 January 2016 at 11:28, Erik Christiansen  
> wrote:
>>> The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, so I am very
>>> close (0.008” difference).
>> That only gives 60% thread engagement, if counting on my fingers is
>> working for me.
> Most digital calipers seem to have a table on the back. Mine says
> 10.2mm for M12 x 1.75
> (Which is no help, as this is M12 x 1.5)
> M10 x 1.5 is given as 8.5, which ties in well with the 10.5mm
> suggested for M12 x 1.5.
>
> I have heard that there used to be a rule that new tools (taps, files)
> were used only on brass until they started to go dull, then they would
> be transferred to work on steel and another brand-new tool would be
> brought in to work on brass.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.01.16 13:28, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Old fairy tale, fact ist that brass (depending on the zinc content) 
> needs a lower cutting angle then steel, both tools ought to be as sharp 
> edged as possible. For holes in brass larger than 10 mm, I use drill 
> bits with a 90° edge (broken edge, as we say) since a 12 mm bit cougth 
> once and almost smashed my ellbow by flinging the machine vise a me...

To avoid having to grind that zero rake onto a drill, I recently used a
set of German "All purpose" drills with a finer version of tungsten
carbide brazed-on wings. (Like a masonry drill.) They chewed through
hard brass at a very good rate, making a pleasant sound. The swarf was
more granular than flaky, so it just poured out of the flutes. (On the
lathe.)

So I haven't actually tried these notes:

Eliminating drill snatching:

Cartridge Brass: 70% Cu, 30% Zn. Does not need drill rake reduction.
In brass:   Grind the drill's cutting edges to 5° rake on the outer 70%
of the edge. At the corner, do not reduce the land width by
more than half.
(MEW 21:53 sketch, 26:65, 42:31, 43:63 photo)
[That's Model Engineer's Workshop, issues 21,26,42,43
 making mention of it.]

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal 
thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12, or 6 - 
1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.

Peter,

Am 22.01.2016 18:43, schrieb tom-...@bgp.nu:
> This is the tap I am using: 
> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that 
> seems fairly large.


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 22.01.16 12:43, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> This is the tap I am using:
> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say
> that seems fairly large.

For M12, a 10.5 mm hole gives 69% thread engagement. Taking as rule of
thumb for avoiding busted taps:
< 6 mm: ~ 60% thread engagement ;  6 - 10 mm: 70% ;  > 10 mm: 75%
you could drop the hole size marginally if the hole isn't deep, and the
spindle will power it, I think.

> The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, so I am very
> close (0.008” difference).

That only gives 60% thread engagement, if counting on my fingers is
working for me.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] A correction to Re: Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Erik,
the drill sizes you are using are all 0.2 to 0.4 mm too large, 
especially with the small values M2 to M6 where it hurts the most. The 
resulting theads have got to be too loose, easy to overtighten. Don't 
use complicated formulas, especially not percent calculatations in 
public, as my math professor said, just subtract the pitch from the 
diameter and you are on line.
Peter



Am 23.01.2016 13:31, schrieb Erik Christiansen:

This is what I use:


Metric Coarse  | BS 4168 Clearance hole:
 | |  Type of fit:
Size Drill  ECore  |  Close Medium   Free

M2   1.70  61%   1.51  |
M2.5 2.15  63%   1.95  |   WARNING:
M3   2.60  65%   2.39  |  3.2   3.4  3.6   2.5mm drill -> 82%.
M4   3.40  70%   3.14  |  4.3   4.5  4.8
M5   4.40  61%   4.02  |  5.3   5.5  5.8   With a nut length of
M6   5.20  65%   4.70  |  6.4   6.6  7.0   1.5 * diameter, 50%
M8   6.90  72%   6.47  |  8.4   9.0 10.0   engagement is stronger
M10  8.70  71%   8.16  | 10.5  11.0 12.0   than the external thread.
M12 10.50  70%   9.85  | 13.0  14.0 15.0
M16 14.25  71%  13.55  |   For CI and thin sheet,
-- stick near 75%.
  
Or in general: # d is full thread depth.
Drill Size = OD - (E*2d)   # E is e.g. 0.65
   # d = kP , where P is thread pitch.
  
Or transposed for E:E = (OD - Drill_Size)/2d
  
 k is:ISO Metric   0.613
  UNF/UNC  0.613
# British Association BA   0.600
# BSW, BSF, ME (32 & 40 TPI), Whitworth forms  0.640
# BSB, and BSP parallel.
  
 

  So for M12 x 1.5:

  d = 0.613 * 1.5 = 0.9195
  E = (12 - 10.5)/(2 * 0.9195) = 81.5%

  That's too much, especially for a deep hole. The 10.7 mm hole:

  E = (12 - 10.7)/(2 * 0.9195) = 70.6%

  would give Tom's spindle a fair chance.

  (In my previous post, I forgot that the above table is for Metric
  Coarse, i.e. 1.75 mm pitch @ M12. :-(

  What would Andy's 10.2 mm hole give with M12 x 1.75?:

  d = 0.613 * 1.75 = 1.07275
  E = (12 - 10.2)/(2 * 1.07275) = 84%

  That's hard on the tap and spindle. Much better is:

  E = (12 - 10.5)/(2 * 1.07275) = 70%

  Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Old fairy tale, fact ist that brass (depending on the zinc content) 
needs a lower cutting angle then steel, both tools ought to be as sharp 
edged as possible. For holes in brass larger than 10 mm, I use drill 
bits with a 90° edge (broken edge, as we say) since a 12 mm bit cougth 
once and almost smashed my ellbow by flinging the machine vise a me...
Peter


Am 23.01.2016 12:48, schrieb andy pugh:
> I have heard that there used to be a rule that new tools (taps, files) 
> were used only on brass until they started to go dull, then they would 
> be transferred to work on steel and another brand-new tool would be 
> brought in to work on brass. 


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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Roland Jollivet]

Oops, I was just going by what you said without looking up the sizes.
If it's metric coarse, then a M12 x 1.75 thread only needs a 10.2mm hole,
so 10.5 should feel easy to tap.

Regards
Roland


On 23 January 2016 at 13:12, Roland Jollivet 
wrote:

>
> I reckon that a lot of the difficulty is that the hole is too small. At
> 12mm, there is quite a lot of force involved, and you are using a
> semi-bottoming tap, and it's a blind hole, and the tap is a weaker spiral
> shape.
>
> With a 10.5 hole you are using the tap to drill as well as tap. Use 10.7
> as recommended, or even 10.8 if you want to do reduce the chance of
> breakage.
>
> A new tap should easily do the job in one pass.
>
> Regards
> Roland
>
>
> On 22 January 2016 at 19:43,  wrote:
>
>> This is the tap I am using:
>> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
>> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that
>> seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm)
>> drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using OSG's
>> tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed of 400
>> RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going to have the
>> same (torque) issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer is I just don’t
>> have enough torque at low spindle speeds to do it in one pass…
>>
>> -Tom
>>
>> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
>> >
>> > What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps from
>> > OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill for each
>> > job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal taps broke
>> > off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so the hole size
>> > was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use 75% thread depth
>> > which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for deeper depths you need a
>> > bigger hole.
>> >
>> > JT
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] VFD Noise

[Dave Cole]

You don't need to disconnect the shields at one end on the power 
conductor shields.
Those are normally connected at each end.

Dave

On 1/22/2016 5:23 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> I spent all afternoon looking for and trying to remove ground loops. I
> think I found all that I can eliminate. I have a couple minor ones due
> to the mounting of my PC motherboard/SSD that I don't think I can remove
> without making new mounting fixtures.
>
> I did find one that I was sure was going to fix the issue. My encoder
> breakout board that converts the honda connectors to RJ45 connectors had
> the power ground going to chassis ground due to the mounting bolts. I
> fixed that and removed that ground loop. I was sure that would fix the
> issue but it did not.
>
> Also the shields on the servo motor power cables are grounded at both
> ends in the motor and at the drive side. I disconnected the drive side.
> I am not sure if this is a good idea or not as It could pose a safety
> hazard.
>
> And for everyone's information the encoder cables are shielded, shields
> grounded at the control board only, the signals are differential and I
> am STILL having this issue.
>
> Anyway after all of this the noise is still present when running the GS1
> drive for the coolant pump. I think I will try to source a run capacitor
> and switch back to a contactor for start stop on the coolant pump.
>
> The filter that I am using on the GS1 drive is a Tyco Corcom 5VB1. I
> don't have an operating scope to look at the noise on the lines.
>
> Thanks for the feedback everyone. Should have listened to Andy 6 months
> ago and went with the run capacitor then! ; ) : (
>
> Jim
>
> On 1/22/2016 3:52 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> Are you using decent filters??
>>
>> GS1 and GS2 drives tend to pump a lot of RF noise up the power supply line.
>> I've used the AD filters with good success.   I think the one I used was
>> about $80.
>> If you are using cheap Ebay filters  sometimes you get what you pay for.
>>
>> Have you put a scope on your AC lines to see if the filters are
>> effective??  I suspect they are not.
>> Re-routing your drive to motor leads is also sometimes effective.   Keep
>> them as far away from low voltage wiring as possible.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 1/22/2016 12:51 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> I have been troubleshooting some noise that I have on my servo encoders.
>>> I have isolated the noise source to be the 1/4hp Automation Direct GS1
>>> VFD that I have running my coolant pump. If the coolant pump is not
>>> running then there is no noise on the encoders and the machine maintains
>>> correct positioning. If I turn the coolant pump on then the encoders get
>>> false signal that in turn changes where the machine thinks it is. This
>>> problem showed up immediately after I retrofitted the machine this last
>>> summer. I have just now been able to diagnose where the issue is
>>> originating.
>>>
>>> In attempts to improve the situation I have done the following.
>>> Installed EMI filters on the supply lines to both the coolant and
>>> spindle vfds.
>>> worked on ground system to try to isolate the noise.
>>> rerouted the coolant pump motor power cable completely away from
>>> any other cables and completely away from the machine.
>>>
>>> All of these things have failed to improve the noise issue.
>>>
>>> I also tried the following to try and diagnose the issue. I disconnected
>>> the coolant pump motor cable from the coolant pump vfd. Disconnected the
>>> spindle motor from the spindle vfd. Connected the coolant pump to the
>>> spindle vfd. Note that the spindle vfd is a 3.0hp Automation direct GS2
>>> drive.
>>>
>>> When I did this and ran the coolant pump via the spindle vfd there was
>>> no noise on the encoders.
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of this issue.  I really
>>> want to make some parts but I can't with the noise issue.
>>>
>>> I talked to a EE buddy of mine and he mentioned running both motors
>>> (spindle and coolant pump) off the same 3.0hp GS2 drive just to get me
>>> going. What do you think about this? Will running two different sized
>>> motors on the same VFD cause any issue. Right now I don't run my spindle
>>> in reverse so I would not have any trouble with the coolant pump running
>>> backwards.
>>>
>>> I talked to Automation Direct and they said that the GS1 is more prone
>>> to noise than the GS2. I am contemplating getting a 1/2hp GS2 to replace
>>> the GS1.
>>>
>>> So frustrated right now.
>>>
>>> Let me know if you have any ideas.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
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Re: [Emc-users] THC

[John Thornton]

I used the original THCAD card on my parallel port. You have to set the 
output frequency divider so the software can read the pulse stream.

JT

On 1/22/2016 6:15 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
> Will the THCAD work with the paralell port? Will he need an FPGA card in
> order to use the THCAD card?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jim
>
> On 1/22/2016 5:57 PM, John Thornton wrote:
>> I use the Mesa THCAD card to convert volts to frequency then the thc
>> component to control my Z while cutting. About 1/5th the cost of that.
>> But if your using a Ox/Acc torch then you need that. For plasma you want
>> to control the height based on tip voltage.
>>
>> JT
>>
>> On 1/22/2016 3:56 PM, Jim Craig wrote:
>>> Second question of the day.
>>>
>>> A buddy of mine is getting ready to build a CNC plasma table. He has
>>> asked me to help with the LinuxCNC stuff and the CNC stuff in general.
>>> He is good with fabbing parts but not fully up to speed on the CNC side
>>> of things.
>>>
>>> I thought the following THC looked like a good
>>> piece.http://cnc4pc.com/motion-control/torch-height-control/non-contact-height-sensor-for-plasma-and-oxy-fuel-cutter.html#prodtabs-4
>>>
>>> Has anyone used this? Do you see any issues with it and LinuxCNC? What
>>> THC do you recommend?
>>>
>>> The machine will be a stepper gantry with two motors on the X axis.
>>> Planning on software stepgen to start.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jim
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 01:07:28 Jon Elson wrote:

> Hmmm, one other way to do this, if you don't have a lot of
> holes to do, is a single-row thread mill.
> traditional thread mills are good for only one thread
> pitch.  Single row thread mills only have one row of cutting
> edges, so you run a pass much like a single point threading
> operation, but with the cutter spinning in the spindle.  It
> does an amazing job of cutting oddball threads, and they
> look just like they were tapped.
> This, of course, is good for a mill, not usable on a lathe,
> as you need to orbit the X and Y axes as the Z withdraws up
> the hole.  (You thread from bottom to top so the hole is
> climb milled for best surface finish.)
>
> I have a generic c program to write the G-code, if anybody
> needs it.
>
> Jon

I have such a single row mill, nominally .750" OD, 1/2" shank, but have 
not ever used it for lack of knowledge how to properly drive it, and 
lack of real need to use it so far. I would appreciate a PM'd copy of 
that, "just in case".

I have been considering making me a pair of dual screw, 1.250" wooden 
screws, woodworkers vises, but the length of screw needed would exceed 
what I can do on my toy lathe, so the screw part has been put off until 
I can acquire a suitably longer lathe.  Such code would greatly simplify 
making the nuts on the mill.

I had made a couple of paddleboard vices, using 3/4" ready thread, but 
the front vise seized its screw in the nut & broke the nut holder 2 or 3 
years back, rendering a good solid woodworkers bench into a storage 
catchall.  But its top is 2x4 stock on edge, 6 foot long, planed flat, 
oil finished so dried, spilled glue can be peeled off, and it weighs in 
the 350 lb area.  A good sturdy bench, if it had working vises.  A new 
bench, ready-made with simpler vises is in the $1600-$2000 range, so I 
hate to clear a path and tow it out with my WV Cadillac just to be made 
into firewood.

Thanks Jon.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] THC

[andy pugh]

On 23 January 2016 at 03:07, Jim Craig  wrote:
> I think I answered my own question. Per the documentation output of the
> THCAD is 100Khz to 1Mhz. Looks like it needs an FPGA encoder counter.

It also says "The frequency output can optionally be divided by 32, 64
or 128 if the output must be counted in software."

So that becomes 800 to 8kHz (approx) which is well within parport capability.


-- 
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[Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Roland Jollivet]

I reckon that a lot of the difficulty is that the hole is too small. At
12mm, there is quite a lot of force involved, and you are using a
semi-bottoming tap, and it's a blind hole, and the tap is a weaker spiral
shape.

With a 10.5 hole you are using the tap to drill as well as tap. Use 10.7 as
recommended, or even 10.8 if you want to do reduce the chance of breakage.

A new tap should easily do the job in one pass.

Regards
Roland


On 22 January 2016 at 19:43,  wrote:

> This is the tap I am using:
> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/58607482?rItem=58607482
> The drill I am using is 10.5mm which is 0.875 of 12mm so I would say that
> seems fairly large.  The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm)
> drill, so I am very close (0.008” difference).  Also, if I was using OSG's
> tap they recommend 23.8764 IPM which equates to a spindle speed of 400
> RPM.  I can try that (I used 300 RPM), but I suspect I am going to have the
> same (torque) issue I had before.  And perhaps the answer is I just don’t
> have enough torque at low spindle speeds to do it in one pass…
>
> -Tom
>
> > On Jan 22, 2016, at 12:00 PM, John Thornton  wrote:
> >
> > What kind of tap did you use? I use only ElectroLube coated taps from
> > OSG. OSG has an online tool to select the correct tap and drill for each
> > job. I once had to deep hole tap in some 7075 and my normal taps broke
> > off. I used the tool and got the right tap and drill so the hole size
> > was correct for the job. Tapping charts usually use 75% thread depth
> > which is usually OK for a depth = diameter, for deeper depths you need a
> > bigger hole.
> >
> > JT
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.01.16 13:23, Roland Jollivet wrote:
> Oops, I was just going by what you said without looking up the sizes.
> If it's metric coarse, then a M12 x 1.75 thread only needs a 10.2mm hole,
> so 10.5 should feel easy to tap.

The OP says M12 x 1.5, so that's what I based my mutterings on.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 23 January 2016 at 11:28, Erik Christiansen  wrote:
>
>> The OSG online tool recommends a 27/64” (10.7mm) drill, so I am very
>> close (0.008” difference).
>
> That only gives 60% thread engagement, if counting on my fingers is
> working for me.

Most digital calipers seem to have a table on the back. Mine says
10.2mm for M12 x 1.75
(Which is no help, as this is M12 x 1.5)
M10 x 1.5 is given as 8.5, which ties in well with the 10.5mm
suggested for M12 x 1.5.

I have heard that there used to be a rule that new tools (taps, files)
were used only on brass until they started to go dull, then they would
be transferred to work on steel and another brand-new tool would be
brought in to work on brass.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] A correction to Re: Rigid tapping speed advice

[Erik Christiansen]

On 23.01.16 14:48, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Erik,
> the drill sizes you are using are all 0.2 to 0.4 mm too large, 
> especially with the small values M2 to M6 where it hurts the most.

No, I don't think so. As the note beside the table states: With a nut
length of 1.5 * diameter, 50% engagement is stronger than the external
thread. Since we don't go below 60% engagement, and are at 70% for M12,
there is zero "hurt" there. What would hurt is making the holes smaller,
and breaking the tap, due to excessive cutting torque, especially with
the small values M2 to M6 where it hurts the most.

In Tom's case, M12 is hard to break, so his spindle is giving up, and
the hole needs to be larger still.

> The resulting threads have got to be too loose, easy to overtighten.

The tap & die still cut neatly matching threads, independent of hole
size, so a badly undersized hole only makes the tap act as a drill. It
does not make the bolt significantly tighter - but it does bind the tap,
as Tom is finding. All we are changing with engagement is how much
airgap there is at the root of the female thread.

By tweaking the dieholder screws with a split die we can adjust the
tightness of a thread fit. The tap offers no such variability.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] A correction to Re: Rigid tapping speed advice

[John Thornton]

As a general rule of thumb you are correct but there are many exceptions 
to that rule like material and depth which might require a larger and 
normal hole to prevent tap breakage.

On 1/23/2016 7:48 AM, Peter Blodow wrote:
> Erik,
> the drill sizes you are using are all 0.2 to 0.4 mm too large,
> especially with the small values M2 to M6 where it hurts the most. The
> resulting theads have got to be too loose, easy to overtighten. Don't
> use complicated formulas, especially not percent calculatations in
> public, as my math professor said, just subtract the pitch from the
> diameter and you are on line.
> Peter
>
>
>
> Am 23.01.2016 13:31, schrieb Erik Christiansen:
>
> This is what I use:
>
>  
>  Metric Coarse  | BS 4168 Clearance hole:
>   | |  Type of fit:
>  Size Drill  ECore  |  Close Medium   Free
>  
>  M2   1.70  61%   1.51  |
>  M2.5 2.15  63%   1.95  |   WARNING:
>  M3   2.60  65%   2.39  |  3.2   3.4  3.6   2.5mm drill -> 82%.
>  M4   3.40  70%   3.14  |  4.3   4.5  4.8
>  M5   4.40  61%   4.02  |  5.3   5.5  5.8   With a nut length of
>  M6   5.20  65%   4.70  |  6.4   6.6  7.0   1.5 * diameter, 50%
>  M8   6.90  72%   6.47  |  8.4   9.0 10.0   engagement is stronger
>  M10  8.70  71%   8.16  | 10.5  11.0 12.0   than the external 
> thread.
>  M12 10.50  70%   9.85  | 13.0  14.0 15.0
>  M16 14.25  71%  13.55  |   For CI and thin sheet,
>  -- stick near 75%.
>
>  Or in general: # d is full thread depth.
>  Drill Size = OD - (E*2d)   # E is e.g. 0.65
> # d = kP , where P is thread pitch.
>
>  Or transposed for E:E = (OD - Drill_Size)/2d
>
>   k is:ISO Metric   
> 0.613
>UNF/UNC  
> 0.613
>  # British Association BA   
> 0.600
>  # BSW, BSF, ME (32 & 40 TPI), Whitworth forms  
> 0.640
>  # BSB, and BSP parallel.
>
>   
>
>So for M12 x 1.5:
>
>d = 0.613 * 1.5 = 0.9195
>E = (12 - 10.5)/(2 * 0.9195) = 81.5%
>
>That's too much, especially for a deep hole. The 10.7 mm hole:
>
>E = (12 - 10.7)/(2 * 0.9195) = 70.6%
>
>would give Tom's spindle a fair chance.
>
>(In my previous post, I forgot that the above table is for Metric
>Coarse, i.e. 1.75 mm pitch @ M12. :-(
>
>What would Andy's 10.2 mm hole give with M12 x 1.75?:
>
>d = 0.613 * 1.75 = 1.07275
>E = (12 - 10.2)/(2 * 1.07275) = 84%
>
>That's hard on the tap and spindle. Much better is:
>
>E = (12 - 10.5)/(2 * 1.07275) = 70%
>
>Erik
>
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Marius Alksnys]

Spindle motor is, as written on the nameplate, High-performance 
induction motor - or three phase asynchronous motor in other words.

As drive power stage takes two analog voltages as phase current commands 
(third one is "calculated" inside), I am feeding them with sine signals, 
calculated by custom HAL component, using 7i77 analog output channels.

Resolver is mounted on the rotor. Resolver signals are converted to 
quadrature by original VFS electronics and then fed to 7i77 encoder 
input. This is how I have accurate position and speed feedback.

01/23/2016 07:42 PM, Dave Cole rašė:
> Are you using an encoder to commutate the motor?  Or just firing the
> windings in order?
> Is the original motor a regular induction motor or some brushless AC,
> brushless DC motor variant ?
>
> Dave


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Re: [Emc-users] How to find old Bosch drive manuals?

[alex chiosso]

Marius if you will get the wiring schematic this will be sure a big help to
understand how to approach the retrofit in the right way.
The cabinet is in any case in a good shape and very well integrated from
the original manufacturer.
Check out as much as possible what there are as "options" on the machine
and the CNC functions as well.
The analog command to the drives maybe is 9V==max speed in order to get 1V
for the extra speed/position loop correction. You can check it out in some
way.
If there is a probe for the tool setting or for the piece setting check it
out witch type it is and how it is connected to the fast I/O system of the
actual CNC.
Have fun with this potential retrofit.



On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 7:46 PM, Marius Alksnys 
wrote:

> Alex, you found out more in less time and from part of the info I had :)
>
> I see there are external Heidenhain EXE, which can stay there, unless I
> would replace servo drives to something like stmbl. I haven't noticed
> linear scales yet, maybe next time I will look for them.
>
> I was assured I will get wiring schematic.
>
> I hope I will be able to throw out some of those I/O's. I know this will
> be a massive number of them to use anyway.
>
> Those on the bottom.. might be brake resistors, didn't check.
>
> It is in decision state now: to do or not to do a retrofit :)
>
> > Hi Marius.
> > What is good to see is that you have about the complete documentation
> > needed.
> > I do believe that if you will find the electrical cabinet wiring
> schematic
> > you should be able to do this massive job.
> > This machine is equipped with quite a big PLC with many I/O (so automatic
> > tool changer and many other auxiliary devices).
> > I see also the brake resistors for the axis and/or the spindle drive in
> the
> > bottom cabinet isn't it?
>
>
> > This type of CNC (that you will replace) should be a single channel
> (single
> > process) architecture so LCNC is a good candidate for the replacement.
> > Do you have linear scales to close the position loop on the linear axis?
> > If yes maybe are Heidenhein branded.
> > I see that the actual CNC have the servo card module with integrated EXE
> > that is suited for the linear scales. How do you solve this issue with
> LCNC?
> > Anyway you have a nice challenge to perform.
> > Please let us know your progress on this project. ;-)
> >
> > Regards
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Not as useful as I thought

[andy pugh]

On 22 January 2016 at 20:13, Jon Elson  wrote:

> Wire +24 to all clutch and brake coils.  Wire -24 to the
> common terminal on the relay.
> Wire other ends of all coils to the individual relay
> terminals. This could require some slight rewiring in the
> machine.  But, most likely, the coils don't care about
> magnetic polarity, so you can wire them up either way.

The problem is that I only have access to one end of each coil, the
other end is the gearbox shafts/case.

Through an eBay accident I do have two of the 24V supplies, so a -24V
supply for the clutches and a +24V for the GPIO is an option.

> Common + on the control inputs, so you need a sinking output
> on the Mesa boards.  And, it needs to be set up to go high
> or open-circuit on E-stop so it doesn't engage the clutch
> AND brake at the same time.

Engaging everything at the same time might not be too bad. It will
certainly stop the machine...

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 23 January 2016 at 16:53, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use a .85
> multiplier.

The idealised depth of thread for a perfectly sharp 60 degree thread
with no rounding or flats is:
(pitch/2) * tan(60) = 0.866p
The core size of the thread is this D - 2 * 0.866p = D - 1.72p
However: There is an H/4 flat on the internal thread, so the real
thread core is D - 1.22p

If you drill a hole of D-1p then you are at about 78% engagement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

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Re: [Emc-users] A correction to Re: Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 09:43:59 andy pugh wrote:

> On 23 January 2016 at 14:25, Erik Christiansen 
 wrote:
> > The tap offers no such variability.
>
> ... Normally :-)
>
> https://www.kennametal.com/content/dam/kennametal/kennametal/common/AT
>I%20Metals/Landis/Catalogs-Literature/SolidAdjustable.pdf

Nice Andy, but they start at 1.125" and go up to 6".  For me, that 1.125" 
to 3" I have in a bottom drawer in the shop, but non-adjustable, 
courtesy a now deceased B.I.L that "borrowed" from his work & I found 
when cleaning out a yard shed at the old home place in town.  Most have 
chipped edges & what not, but should be sharpenable.  But nothing to 
drive them with except a crescent wrench, which is likely how they got 
damaged in the first place.

And all of them are in the "Oh my gawd" price range for me. :(

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Pete Matos]

excellent man did you get the toolchanger working as well?  That is what
mine is lacking.  My machine is a 1997 Cincinatti Arrow 500 VMC.

Pete


On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Marius Alksnys 
wrote:

> I am planning to finish to retrofit Cincinnati Arrow 750 with LinuxCNC
> in several weeks completely. This includes hacked VFS spindle drive for
> 9kW 10kRPM spindle and automatic tool changer. I did not succeed to
> revive VFS to its original state, so I chose very strange way - to hack
> it and control phases directly.
>
> I chose Mesa 5i25 + 7i77. Everything else is just a bunch of wires and
> code :)
>
> And I am happy with the result.
>
> 01/13/2016 07:26 PM, Wayde Allen rašė:
> > I just joined the email list since I'm wondering about using Linux CNC to
> > retrofit the control system on an old Cincinnati/Milacron CNC system. The
> > motor control amplifier for these machines seems to be a Kollmorgen BDS4.
> > Has anyone here created an interface to one of these?
> >
> > Is Linux CNC a decent option for replacing the old control computer on
> one
> > of these beasts for use in a low volume production environment?
> >
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 12:08:47 andy pugh wrote:

> On 23 January 2016 at 16:53, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use
> > a .85 multiplier.
>
> The idealised depth of thread for a perfectly sharp 60 degree thread
> with no rounding or flats is:
> (pitch/2) * tan(60) = 0.866p
> The core size of the thread is this D - 2 * 0.866p = D - 1.72p
> However: There is an H/4 flat on the internal thread, so the real
> thread core is D - 1.22p
>
> If you drill a hole of D-1p then you are at about 78% engagement.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread

Now we are getting more precise than we can drill with the typical drill 
bit, which usually drills oversize because the tip flats are 
un-avoidably off center. Even to a small extent for pricy carbide bits 
in the smaller sizes.  Yesterdays finished tapping looked great, but I 
think I could have used the next larger #drill. Yeah, my back of a 
napkin said a .089 drill, kcalc says 0.0984251968503937008 for a 3mm.5 
screw.

No wonder I felt like I should peck it, the hole WAS too small.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] A correction to Re: Rigid tapping speed advice

[andy pugh]

On 23 January 2016 at 14:25, Erik Christiansen  wrote:
> The tap offers no such variability.

... Normally :-)

https://www.kennametal.com/content/dam/kennametal/kennametal/common/ATI%20Metals/Landis/Catalogs-Literature/SolidAdjustable.pdf

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Gene,
without being able to read what is engraved on them drill bits: those 
look decent, the metal box and the price suggest they are of better 
quality. Just about like mine I have been using for the last 35 years:
https://www.hoffmann-group.com/DE/de/hom/Monozerspanung/HSS-Bohrer/Spiralbohrer-Satz-HSS-E-Nr-114450-mit-Kassette-1-10-GARANT/p/115320
Some of them are a bit shorter now from sharpening, very few were broken 
and have been replaced. Never compromise on tools.
Peter

Am 23.01.2016 17:53, schrieb Gene Heskett:
> On Saturday 23 January 2016 06:18:55 Peter Blodow wrote:
>
>> Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal
>> thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12, or 6
>> - 1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.
> Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use a .85
> multiplier.  I made a couple 3mm holes yesterday when carving up a
> temporary camera mount, applied that rule and used a .089 # drill as the
> starter hole.  Had about the taps length to do as the screws I had were
> 12mm long and the material was 1/2" thick. Not wanting to load up the
> tap and break it since it was a crap Irwin/Hanson, I pecked it by hand
> from the mdi command line, 3mm at a time.  Worked great.  But I need to
> junk that set of drills, they are gold painted wheel weights & only good
> for 3 or 4 holes in alu before the edge is gone. I had bought one of
> those 115 piece things for about a $30 bill several years ago, and half
> of them have burned up or broken, and most are too small to be worked
> over by the original drill doctor.  Its good for big bits, but has bad
> centering problems when you get below about 3/16"
>
> Looking at the fleabay offerings, what does this group think about Drill
> Hog?  Like these:
>
> 
>
> [...]
>
> Thanks everybody!
>
> We have about 14" of snow on flat areas, and its still building, perhaps
> an inch/hour. A winter wonderland out, if I didn't have to clear some of
> it when it finally does stop.  I stuck an arm & camera out the back
> door, and my rider and 20 kw standby are just tall lumps in the snow,
> completely covered.
>
> For those of you sort of on the "right coast" with me, orders from
> Grandpa Gene: don't go have a heart attack shoveling it.  Ya'll hear?
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Marius Alksnys]

I coded and tested spindle orientation and tool carousel control this week.
I implemented a lot of checks here, as I learned something from severely 
damaged original carousel, which will be replaced when testing will be 
complete :)

Now I am coding tool change: Z movements, pneumatic valves, sensors, 
states, checks, messages.

01/23/2016 07:13 PM, Pete Matos rašė:
> excellent man did you get the toolchanger working as well?  That is what
> mine is lacking.  My machine is a 1997 Cincinatti Arrow 500 VMC.
>
> Pete


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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Andy Pugh]

> On 23 Jan 2016, at 17:43, Pete Matos  wrote:
> 
> I have to find a good way to orient spindle now before I can proceed
> further. Good luck man.

The spindle.hal file from vismach/vmc_toolchange ought to pretty much just slot 
in. 
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Andy Pugh]

> On 23 Jan 2016, at 17:55, Marius Alksnys  wrote:
> 
> As drive power stage takes two analog voltages as phase current commands 
> (third one is "calculated" inside), I am feeding them with sine signals, 
> calculated by custom HAL component, using 7i77 analog output channels.

The "bldc" HAL component could probably do that. 

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Drew Rogge]

Thanks Tom.

On 1/22/16 6:31 PM, tom-...@bgp.nu wrote:
> We ordered the 1024ppr encoder (EM1-2-1024-I): 
> http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/EM1#description
> with this disk: 
> http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/rotary/disks/DISK-2
> and this cable: 
> http://www.usdigital.com/products/cables-connectors/cables/5-pin/CA-C5-SH-NC
>
> Attached is a link to the only (stp) file I could find of the encoder mount.  
> I tapped the small holes in this bracket by hand with a 4-40 tap (don’t tell 
> anyone I used SAE screws on a metric only machine!) to mount the encoder to 
> it.  The countersunk holes (using an M4 screw I believe) held this mount to 
> the backplate of the encoder housing with the same screws that held the EMCO 
> encoder to it..  I then adjusted the encoder wheel to line up in the slot as 
> it should using the stock Emco disk mounting hardware which is adjustable.  I 
> can’t be sure that I didn’t modify the dimensions of this drawing for the 
> final part but I don’t recall doing that.  I usually have my gcode or job 
> file but I can’t seem to find them.  I was only making one so I may have 
> failed to save it…
>
> bgp.nu:/~tom/pub/EMCO120P-NewEncoderBrakt.stp
>
> -Tom
>

-- 
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d...@dasrogges.com

Phone: 8934OOO629OO4829631OOO


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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Pete Matos]

yup mine has everything original implemented already and all is working but
I have to find a good way to orient spindle now before I can proceed
further. Good luck man.

Pete


On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:38 PM, Marius Alksnys 
wrote:

> I coded and tested spindle orientation and tool carousel control this week.
> I implemented a lot of checks here, as I learned something from severely
> damaged original carousel, which will be replaced when testing will be
> complete :)
>
> Now I am coding tool change: Z movements, pneumatic valves, sensors,
> states, checks, messages.
>
> 01/23/2016 07:13 PM, Pete Matos rašė:
> > excellent man did you get the toolchanger working as well?  That is what
> > mine is lacking.  My machine is a 1997 Cincinatti Arrow 500 VMC.
> >
> > Pete
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Peter Blodow]

Gene,
0.091" (=2,3 mm) would be perfectly in the DIN / ISO range. I use 2.4 mm 
for easy working if strength is not the issue.
More, my drills are all produced a little under their nominal size, 
maybe a few hundreths, to allow for de-centering of the cutting blades 
in order to give a correct result when the hole is done. Admittedly, 
it's not easy to keep that up when re-sharpening by hand...
In order to reduce the cutting forces and risk of breakage, all hand tap 
drills come in sets of three beginning with a straiht tip with drill 
blades to make sure the hole is not too small and keep the threads 
perpendicular to the surface.
Peter


Am 23.01.2016 18:27, schrieb Gene Heskett:
> On
> Now we are getting more precise than we can drill with the typical drill
> bit, which usually drills oversize because the tip flats are
> un-avoidably off center. Even to a small extent for pricy carbide bits
> in the smaller sizes.  Yesterdays finished tapping looked great, but I
> think I could have used the next larger #drill. Yeah, my back of a
> napkin said a .089 drill, kcalc says 0.0984251968503937008 for a 3mm.5
> screw.
>
> No wonder I felt like I should peck it, the hole WAS too small.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] How to find old Bosch drive manuals?

[alex chiosso]

Hi Marius.
What is good to see is that you have about the complete documentation
needed.
I do believe that if you will find the electrical cabinet wiring schematic
you should be able to do this massive job.
This machine is equipped with quite a big PLC with many I/O (so automatic
tool changer and many other auxiliary devices).
I see also the brake resistors for the axis and/or the spindle drive in the
bottom cabinet isn't it?
This type of CNC (that you will replace) should be a single channel (single
process) architecture so LCNC is a good candidate for the replacement.
Do you have linear scales to close the position loop on the linear axis?
If yes maybe are Heidenhein branded.
I see that the actual CNC have the servo card module with integrated EXE
that is suited for the linear scales. How do you solve this issue with LCNC?
Anyway you have a nice challenge to perform.
Please let us know your progress on this project. ;-)

Regards


On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Marius Alksnys 
wrote:

>
>
> 01/23/2016 10:43 AM, alex chiosso rašė:
> > Hi Marius.
> > Do you have a picture of the drive and the whole electrical cabinet ?
> > The drive should be a Bosch Servodyn but as you noticed it's quite
> > difficult to find out any docs.
> > This mainly because the SPM coding for Bosch (Rexroth-Indramat) means a
> > generic usage for Spindle application.
> > Do you have any electrical drawings about the machine you're refering to
> ?
> > Is the spindle command (from the cnc) analog , digital (fieldbus) or what
> > else ?
> >
> > Regards :-)
>
> Hi, Alex :)
>
> Here are the photos and docs I found:
>
> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bx5r7yxJ8GWDYkpMMHh2VWR5M00=sharing
>
> I found manuals for servo drives, but not for spindle drive.
>
> I hope I will get electric schematics of the machine.
>
> Spindle drive is controlled by analog voltage.
>
> Kind regards!
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Dave Cole]

Interesting.

Are the two sine waves being fed to the drive 120 degrees out of phase 
or something similar?

So does the sine wave amplitude ramp up according the motor speed?

Dave


On 1/23/2016 12:55 PM, Marius Alksnys wrote:
> Spindle motor is, as written on the nameplate, High-performance
> induction motor - or three phase asynchronous motor in other words.
>
> As drive power stage takes two analog voltages as phase current commands
> (third one is "calculated" inside), I am feeding them with sine signals,
> calculated by custom HAL component, using 7i77 analog output channels.
>
> Resolver is mounted on the rotor. Resolver signals are converted to
> quadrature by original VFS electronics and then fed to 7i77 encoder
> input. This is how I have accurate position and speed feedback.
>
> 01/23/2016 07:42 PM, Dave Cole rašė:
>> Are you using an encoder to commutate the motor?  Or just firing the
>> windings in order?
>> Is the original motor a regular induction motor or some brushless AC,
>> brushless DC motor variant ?
>>
>> Dave
>
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Re: [Emc-users] How to find old Bosch drive manuals?

[Marius Alksnys]

Alex, you found out more in less time and from part of the info I had :)

I see there are external Heidenhain EXE, which can stay there, unless I 
would replace servo drives to something like stmbl. I haven't noticed 
linear scales yet, maybe next time I will look for them.

I was assured I will get wiring schematic.

I hope I will be able to throw out some of those I/O's. I know this will 
be a massive number of them to use anyway.

Those on the bottom.. might be brake resistors, didn't check.

It is in decision state now: to do or not to do a retrofit :)

> Hi Marius.
> What is good to see is that you have about the complete documentation
> needed.
> I do believe that if you will find the electrical cabinet wiring schematic
> you should be able to do this massive job.
> This machine is equipped with quite a big PLC with many I/O (so automatic
> tool changer and many other auxiliary devices).
> I see also the brake resistors for the axis and/or the spindle drive in the
> bottom cabinet isn't it?


> This type of CNC (that you will replace) should be a single channel (single
> process) architecture so LCNC is a good candidate for the replacement.
> Do you have linear scales to close the position loop on the linear axis?
> If yes maybe are Heidenhein branded.
> I see that the actual CNC have the servo card module with integrated EXE
> that is suited for the linear scales. How do you solve this issue with LCNC?
> Anyway you have a nice challenge to perform.
> Please let us know your progress on this project. ;-)
>
> Regards


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Re: [Emc-users] How to find old Bosch drive manuals?

[Marius Alksnys]

01/23/2016 10:43 AM, alex chiosso rašė:
> Hi Marius.
> Do you have a picture of the drive and the whole electrical cabinet ?
> The drive should be a Bosch Servodyn but as you noticed it's quite
> difficult to find out any docs.
> This mainly because the SPM coding for Bosch (Rexroth-Indramat) means a
> generic usage for Spindle application.
> Do you have any electrical drawings about the machine you're refering to ?
> Is the spindle command (from the cnc) analog , digital (fieldbus) or what
> else ?
>
> Regards :-)

Hi, Alex :)

Here are the photos and docs I found:
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0Bx5r7yxJ8GWDYkpMMHh2VWR5M00=sharing

I found manuals for servo drives, but not for spindle drive.

I hope I will get electric schematics of the machine.

Spindle drive is controlled by analog voltage.

Kind regards!


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 06:18:55 Peter Blodow wrote:

> Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal
> thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12, or 6
> - 1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.

Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use a .85 
multiplier.  I made a couple 3mm holes yesterday when carving up a 
temporary camera mount, applied that rule and used a .089 # drill as the 
starter hole.  Had about the taps length to do as the screws I had were 
12mm long and the material was 1/2" thick. Not wanting to load up the 
tap and break it since it was a crap Irwin/Hanson, I pecked it by hand 
from the mdi command line, 3mm at a time.  Worked great.  But I need to 
junk that set of drills, they are gold painted wheel weights & only good 
for 3 or 4 holes in alu before the edge is gone. I had bought one of 
those 115 piece things for about a $30 bill several years ago, and half 
of them have burned up or broken, and most are too small to be worked 
over by the original drill doctor.  Its good for big bits, but has bad 
centering problems when you get below about 3/16"

Looking at the fleabay offerings, what does this group think about Drill 
Hog?  Like these:



[...]

Thanks everybody!

We have about 14" of snow on flat areas, and its still building, perhaps 
an inch/hour. A winter wonderland out, if I didn't have to clear some of 
it when it finally does stop.  I stuck an arm & camera out the back 
door, and my rider and 20 kw standby are just tall lumps in the snow, 
completely covered.

For those of you sort of on the "right coast" with me, orders from 
Grandpa Gene: don't go have a heart attack shoveling it.  Ya'll hear?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Marius Alksnys]

I am planning to finish to retrofit Cincinnati Arrow 750 with LinuxCNC 
in several weeks completely. This includes hacked VFS spindle drive for 
9kW 10kRPM spindle and automatic tool changer. I did not succeed to 
revive VFS to its original state, so I chose very strange way - to hack 
it and control phases directly.

I chose Mesa 5i25 + 7i77. Everything else is just a bunch of wires and 
code :)

And I am happy with the result.

01/13/2016 07:26 PM, Wayde Allen rašė:
> I just joined the email list since I'm wondering about using Linux CNC to
> retrofit the control system on an old Cincinnati/Milacron CNC system. The
> motor control amplifier for these machines seems to be a Kollmorgen BDS4.
> Has anyone here created an interface to one of these?
>
> Is Linux CNC a decent option for replacing the old control computer on one
> of these beasts for use in a low volume production environment?
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 12:21:03 Peter Blodow wrote:

> Gene,
> without being able to read what is engraved on them drill bits: those
> look decent, the metal box and the price suggest they are of better
> quality. Just about like mine I have been using for the last 35 years:
> https://www.hoffmann-group.com/DE/de/hom/Monozerspanung/HSS-Bohrer/Spi
>ralbohrer-Satz-HSS-E-Nr-114450-mit-Kassette-1-10-GARANT/p/115320 Some
> of them are a bit shorter now from sharpening, very few were broken
> and have been replaced. Never compromise on tools.
> Peter

That was my impression too.  Did you note the propaganda on the steel?  
Melts at something north of 4000F! I think they will be mine.

> Am 23.01.2016 17:53, schrieb Gene Heskett:
> > On Saturday 23 January 2016 06:18:55 Peter Blodow wrote:
> >> Tom, the formula for drilling for metric threads is simple: nominal
> >> thread diameter minus the pitch, e.g. 12 - 1.5 = 10.5 mm for M12,
> >> or 6 - 1 = 5 mm for M6 etc.
> >
> > Does that not give a 100% thread? I was under the impression we use
> > a .85 multiplier.  I made a couple 3mm holes yesterday when carving
> > up a temporary camera mount, applied that rule and used a .089 #
> > drill as the starter hole.  Had about the taps length to do as the
> > screws I had were 12mm long and the material was 1/2" thick. Not
> > wanting to load up the tap and break it since it was a crap
> > Irwin/Hanson, I pecked it by hand from the mdi command line, 3mm at
> > a time.  Worked great.  But I need to junk that set of drills, they
> > are gold painted wheel weights & only good for 3 or 4 holes in alu
> > before the edge is gone. I had bought one of those 115 piece things
> > for about a $30 bill several years ago, and half of them have burned
> > up or broken, and most are too small to be worked over by the
> > original drill doctor.  Its good for big bits, but has bad centering
> > problems when you get below about 3/16"
> >
> > Looking at the fleabay offerings, what does this group think about
> > Drill Hog?  Like these:
> >
> >  >auge-HI-MOLY-M7-USA-Lifetime-Warranty-/181752876465?hash=item2a5150cd
> >b1:g:x4oAAOSwMmBVrQ3a>
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Thanks everybody!
> >
> > We have about 14" of snow on flat areas, and its still building,
> > perhaps an inch/hour. A winter wonderland out, if I didn't have to
> > clear some of it when it finally does stop.  I stuck an arm & camera
> > out the back door, and my rider and 20 kw standby are just tall
> > lumps in the snow, completely covered.
> >
> > For those of you sort of on the "right coast" with me, orders from
> > Grandpa Gene: don't go have a heart attack shoveling it.  Ya'll
> > hear?
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
> ---
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
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Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Dave Cole]

Are you using an encoder to commutate the motor?  Or just firing the 
windings in order?
Is the original motor a regular induction motor or some brushless AC, 
brushless DC motor variant ?

Dave

On 1/23/2016 12:06 PM, Marius Alksnys wrote:
> I am planning to finish to retrofit Cincinnati Arrow 750 with LinuxCNC
> in several weeks completely. This includes hacked VFS spindle drive for
> 9kW 10kRPM spindle and automatic tool changer. I did not succeed to
> revive VFS to its original state, so I chose very strange way - to hack
> it and control phases directly.
>
> I chose Mesa 5i25 + 7i77. Everything else is just a bunch of wires and
> code :)
>
> And I am happy with the result.
>
> 01/13/2016 07:26 PM, Wayde Allen rašė:
>> I just joined the email list since I'm wondering about using Linux CNC to
>> retrofit the control system on an old Cincinnati/Milacron CNC system. The
>> motor control amplifier for these machines seems to be a Kollmorgen BDS4.
>> Has anyone here created an interface to one of these?
>>
>> Is Linux CNC a decent option for replacing the old control computer on one
>> of these beasts for use in a low volume production environment?
>>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Dave Cole]

That's nice!  :-)

Dave

On 1/23/2016 4:48 PM, Marius Alksnys wrote:
> 01/23/2016 08:39 PM, Dave Cole rašė:
>> Interesting.
>>
>> Are the two sine waves being fed to the drive 120 degrees out of phase
>> or something similar?
>>
>> So does the sine wave amplitude ramp up according the motor speed?
>>
>> Dave
> Yes, 120 degrees.
>
> In spin / velocity mode amplitude I_out is controlled by PID and
> frequency calculated by a formula (created by myself):
> f_out = dipoles * (vel_fb + vel_fb_abs * slip * K_slip * I_out / I_max +
> I_out / I_max * T_comp);
>
> param rw float slip = 0.025 "Frequency slip ratio";
> param rw float K-slip = 2.5 "Maximum slip coefficient";
> param rw float T-comp = 5 "Torque to frequency compensation coefficient";
>
> It could be more simple, but this worked and was flexible enough while
> tuning in my case.
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 23 January 2016 12:51:59 Peter Blodow wrote:

> Gene,
> 0.091" (=2,3 mm) would be perfectly in the DIN / ISO range. I use 2.4
> mm for easy working if strength is not the issue.
> More, my drills are all produced a little under their nominal size,
> maybe a few hundreths, to allow for de-centering of the cutting blades
> in order to give a correct result when the hole is done. Admittedly,
> it's not easy to keep that up when re-sharpening by hand...
> In order to reduce the cutting forces and risk of breakage, all hand
> tap drills come in sets of three beginning with a straiht tip with
> drill blades to make sure the hole is not too small and keep the
> threads perpendicular to the surface.
> Peter

That bit of luxury has appeared to have faded from the scene with the 
shift of so damned many of the tools we can afford to buy, being 
imported from China. I can recall in 1959, when I was a bench tech for 
Oceanographic Engineering, the machinist we hired to help us make the 
pressure cases for the tv cameras we installed on the Trieste just 
before its singular trip down into the mohole in Feb 1960, and who came 
with his own tools except for a huge english made lathe we bought, & one 
of his prized posessions was a full set of fractional, lettered, and 
numbered drill bits, for brass.  All straight flute. He also had a small 
electric motor that spun a 3" brass disk that was occasionally annointed 
with a drop of oil & diamond dust, and had several jigs drilled at all 
sorts of angles that he used to sharpen tools with. No carbide tools in 
his kit, but he spent perhaps 2 minutes tuning up a 1/2" square lathe 
tool, and it carved bronze (we started with a 7" diameter "Naval" bronze 
rod about 2 feet long for each camera housing) and made a couple lbs of 
swarf before it went back to the diamond again. And left a finish you 
could have used for a shaving mirror in a pinch. The Navy gave us the 
quartz windows for the front of it, along with the drawings for how to 
seal it into the front of the case.  But at an estimated psi of nearly 
18,000 down there, that machinist was schmardt enough to adjust the 
dimensions just enough to keep the bronze from crushing the quartz while 
still remaining tight and waterproof at only 1000 feet down.

Since it was powered by a piece of RG-59 thru a packing gland in the rear 
of the case, I wanted to see that, and how it was prevented from 
squirting thru the gland, but he worked a weekend I didn't and it was 
already done Monday morning. It got its 12 volt power, and shipped the 
video back on a 10 Mhz carrier in the same cable.  But the Trieste had 
no coax ports into it.  The Navy gave us 9 ea 16 gauge pieces of Packard 
automotive wire to run 2 cameras and 2 pan & tilt assemblies with. We 
had an engineer who was good with sequentiaL relay logic who worked out 
how we could do all that on 3 wires, leaving 6 for the cameras.

As for the video, we thought we'd better test that wire, so we bought a 
1000 gallon stock tank, threw 500 lbs of salt in it and filled it with a 
small pump and a hose from mission bay which was in our back yard.  

Stired it up till the salt was all disolved, threw in 50 feet of that 
wire in random loose fashion, and put our sweep generator on it.  Blew 
us away when we found that as long as our gear was grounded to the tank, 
it was, as said by another of our design engineers "flatter than a plate 
of pee", and it actually worked quite well when hooked up in the gondola 
& set back down in 15 feet of water off the end of our dock.  And worked 
equally well down in the mohole.

Only one casualty to that gear in that dive.  We had taken a more or less 
std issue Halomore pan & tilt assembly, cut the top of the housing off, 
filled it with ATF and after drilling a vent hole in the top, put it 
back on with a rubber gasket diaphram to keep the oil & sea water 
separated.  Sealed with RTV IIRC.  But one of them must have had an air 
pocket and didn't fill to a no void condition.  At nearly 18,000 psi, 
the middle of the diaphram pushed down far enough a tilt gear ground a 
hole in it. So when we opened it up to see why it wasn't working a week 
later, we found the hole, and the unit full of seawater & oil sludge. 
But it had done the job it was sent to do so it was just a shrug for all 
concerned.

Way off topic but possibly interesting to others.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC for retrofit of Cincinnati Milacron CNC?

[Marius Alksnys]

01/23/2016 08:39 PM, Dave Cole rašė:
> Interesting.
>
> Are the two sine waves being fed to the drive 120 degrees out of phase
> or something similar?
>
> So does the sine wave amplitude ramp up according the motor speed?
>
> Dave

Yes, 120 degrees.

In spin / velocity mode amplitude I_out is controlled by PID and 
frequency calculated by a formula (created by myself):
f_out = dipoles * (vel_fb + vel_fb_abs * slip * K_slip * I_out / I_max + 
I_out / I_max * T_comp);

param rw float slip = 0.025 "Frequency slip ratio";
param rw float K-slip = 2.5 "Maximum slip coefficient";
param rw float T-comp = 5 "Torque to frequency compensation coefficient";

It could be more simple, but this worked and was flexible enough while 
tuning in my case.


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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Jon Elson]

On 01/23/2016 02:27 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I would appreciate a PM'd copy of that, "just in case".
It is online, at http://pico-systems.com/gcode.html

Look near the bottom for "Thread Milling".  You need to bore 
the hole to about the minor diameter of the thread first.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Rigid tapping speed advice

[Bengt Sjölund]

Both yes and no depending of tool you have.

I use these from 
https://shop.vhf.de/articleGroups/Circular-thread-cutters-W_GW_BGF.htm
Easy to do flat bottom threaded holes.

Bengt

Den 2016-01-23 kl. 21:43, skrev Jon Elson:
> On 01/23/2016 02:27 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> I would appreciate a PM'd copy of that, "just in case".
> It is online, at http://pico-systems.com/gcode.html
>
> Look near the bottom for "Thread Milling".  You need to bore
> the hole to about the minor diameter of the thread first.
>
> Jon
>
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