ng enough
self-referencing systems happening together to construct/be the
awareness. The underlying simplicity is that if something really
exists, even if that something is just a 'point of view', then
it has to be somewhere now, not somewhere else.
Thanks for the interesting question!
R
7;s last words to His/Her creatures":
"WE APOLOGISE FOR THE INCONVENIENCE"
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Addendum: Some further revisions since yesterday... I was almost
> there yesterd
g
able to locate and accurately describe brain processes from/in
3PV cannot thereby diminish or encompass the experience of what
it is like to be that process.
NB: "Old Chalmers ... " --- He's not THAT old, surely!
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.
og is not at all experienced as inner; the
dog's experience is all about the world around it, except if it
has a tummy ache or some such, in which case it finds itself
eating stringy green cow food.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Quentin Anc
yes of the
prey and cannot give heed to any distractions. It must navigate
around or over obstacles, subordinating its body to the goal of
reaching and capturing the target.
There is a simplicity in the case of the lion which we have lost
because of our use of words. Words allowed copied behavio
mplete obedience of
subordinates becomes an integral feature of an officer's world.
Raw behaviourist language cannot easily and effectively describe
all that is going on because in effect the officers' environment
is made up of subordinates' behaviours. There is at least one
e responses to it, reviewed in
ceaseless recursive cycles, gives us the basis of subjective time.
I have put this description in terms of 'behaviours' because I
am practising how to deal with the jibes and stonewalling of
someone who countenance only 'behavioural analysis&#x
e essential ingredients. So a country governed by
"Sharia Law" or "Biblical principles" [to name but two] to the
exclusion of any of the four essential ingredients, is doomed
eventually to poverty, strife, and all the miseries these evils
bring.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDE
st like
real democracy needs the profound cultural support of knowledge
of scientific method. Remember, Athenian 'democracy' required a
totally disenfranchised slave class to create the surplus value
consumed by the warrior elite as members of the latter contested
for status and p
ent of science, can only be dealt with by the
further application of the method, and so it will ever be.
Hmm, I went on more than I intended here, but the issue is not
trivial, and it is not going to go away.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
ers or anything much about 'where' they are,
i.e. are they in a 'higher dimensional' space, do they interact
in anyway apart from interpenetration, are they ontogenically
related, do they have babies?
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/
CDES = Compassion, Democracy, Ethics, and Scientific method
These are prerequisites for the survival of civilisation.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
David Nyman wrote:
> On Jun 21, 8:03 pm, Mark Peaty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
es a potential explanation of quantum entanglement in that
if each of the two faces of a Janus connection were in different
particles, those particles might be fleeing from each other at
the speed of light, or something close to it, yet for that
particular Janus connection each face will stil
t is feasible that during the
second half of the 21Century some computers may start asking US
why we think we are conscious.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Torgny Tholerus wrote:
> Mohsen Ravanbakhsh skrev:
>> >The "subjective ex
my a/, b/, c/, look terrible in variable spaced font, they were
prepared and sent in fixed font but the message I got back put
them in variable spacing and so out of alignment.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Mark Peaty wrote:
> [Grin] I j
s.
Measuring the changes against prior knowledge and expectation
allows the individual to achieve her best effort in doing the
most appropriate thing at the right time and in the most
efficient way possible.
Oops! That was much longer than expected, I hope you didn't miss
all the good bi
iour that is sub optimal or not
in line with prior planning. Consciousness is simply what it is
like to be this reviewing process.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
>
> On 10/06/07, *Mark Peaty* <[EMAIL PROT
the world?
Or is there the possibility of something like so-called
blindsight in every sensory modality? For example: deaf-hearing,
numb-sensing, proprio-non-ception? This would imply a zombie
[without 'a life'] which survived by making apparently random
guesses about everything yet gettin
TT:
'
> What is the philosophical term for persons like me, that totally deny
> the existence of the consciousness?'
MP: I think the word you are looking for is "deluded".
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Torgny Thole
e other hand memes embodied in behaviour patterns,
the brain structures which mediate them, and the environmental
changes [glyphs, paintings, structures, etc,] which stimulate
and guide them.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Stathis Papaioannou wr
solidarity or true rapport with
others.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 3, 9:20 pm, "Stathis Papaioannou" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 03/06/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PRO
far smarter than their owners realise and,
3/ the acknowledged keepers of the money supply.
None of this has to be bad. When the computers realise they will
always need people to do most of the maintenance work and people
realise that symbiosis with the silicon smart-alecks is a
prerequisite fo
icular. I think that the kind of
experiences being referred to, such as a 'no-mind' state of
meditation, are what it is like to be the high gain system when,
after much practice, the brain has been trained to virtually
cease evoking representations.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[E
pect to occur. Calling time a 'dimension' therefore, or a set
of dimensions, seems to me to be a rather abstract fudge.
Enormously useful of course, we couldn't make social
appointments or launch space rockets without 'time', but aren't
we just reifying
Silico-Electric ONE [or two, ...]
will coalesce around the control and accounting of money, money
being the embodiment of negative entropy in the cultural world.
For what it's worth I think that such a creature will realise
that ethics is part of the foundation of its world: a
fundamental to
is. I think it behoves contributors here to consider
whether the universal dovetailer can ever be more real than Jack
and his Beanstalk. Jack and his magic vegetable have been around
for a couple of centuries now. The universal dovetailer may do
likewise. We just need to keep in touch with the ide
reflection mean that we are changed by what we do and thus are
not all interchangeable like atoms and molecules are [etc].
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
John Mikes wrote:
> Mark,
> let me play with your postulate (plain English) vs you
llary of
this is that energy and matter were much more densely packed in
the early universe.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Brent Meeker wrote:
> Mark Peaty wrote:
>> Brent, how is this for whimsy:
>>
>> what are now called bl
be matter
[stuff] is built out of the flotsam left over as the inner
surface of the bubble disintegrated, possibly in some sort of
fractal manner.
If this were all true, then what is 'out there' beyond the edge
of our universe is basically the same as the singularity at the
ce
' are in fact words, and the
'integers' or 'whole numbers' that we commonly speak of and
utilise are actually convenient fabrications humans have created
in order to impose order on the world. It is conceivable that
everything real is actually a process that can only ever
' but points to all aspects of existence manifesting a
wave nature, so talk of particles is out of place, 'wavicles'
might be a word we have to use :-)
That is enough for now. I will leave for another posting my
question about the apparent scandal of Michelson/Morley
interferomet
by
Jasper FForde, and in the sequels, the names of which I have
forgotten at the moment. The author shows what could happen if
Platonia started really getting out of hand.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Brent Meeker wrote:
> Mohsen Ravan
Tom, is it not a simple fact, surely, that *meaning*, for a creature
with the wherewithal to worry about it, is fundamentally the recognition
of relationships amongst the creatures and things perceived in the
world, including oneself, and relating these to oneself?
Regards
Mark Peaty
ll be ever more wonderfully concentrated on 'what it is
like to be' a piece of spaghetti, unable to see anything except *the
destination*?
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
>
> On 3/9/07, *Mark Peaty* &l
raction* of the metric, ie the measuring system, rather
than an expansion of the location, so to speak. In particular, why is it
not feasible to consider the Big Bang and subsequent Inflationary epoch
as being in effect a collapse?
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.ne
to the innards of a black
whole would do more than wonderfully concentrate the mind: concentration
itself would become the major problem even for a ghost! =-O
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
>
> On 3/6/07, *Mark Pe
real number
an infinite process?]
**
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Bruno Marchal wrote:
> Le 05-mars-07, à 15:03, Mark Peaty a écrit :
>
>
>
>> Nobody here has yet explained in plain-English why we have entropy.
nse. Call me a heretic if you like, but I will 'stick
to my guns' here: If it can't be put into plain-English then it probably
isn't true!
:-)
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Mohsen Ravanbakhsh wrote:
> I don't k
is 'moralising' to point out that every thing we do has
an opportunity cost, including speculation concerning simulations and
replications of universes.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Jason wrote:
> On Mar 4, 12:09 pm, "Dan
where it will [ ie entropy], and if they are nothing like
our universe we have nothing to say.
I guess my view is a reductionist anthropic enterprise.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
1Z wrote:
>
> On 2 Mar, 12:43, "chris peck" <[EM
up runs over, and
there is nothing nobler than to help those in need who share our world
during our transient passing through.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Brent Meeker wrote:
> Mark Peaty wrote:
>
>> No Brent, what I AM
the question that has to be directed at all those who wield power: If
you are so smart, why aren't you kind?
It's like Terry Pratchett says: There is only one sin, and that is to
treat another person like a thing.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.
all those
other civilisations your mentioned. But this time it will be well and
truly final because we will have used up all the easily obtainable
resources, and blighted enough of the landscape to see Homo sapiens
disappear into fossilised oblivion.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROT
ge that the
demonstrated power of scientific method to show us how the natural world
works and to show us deep insights into how the human brain and mind
work has a moral authority at least equal to that of their 'holy' books.
THIS is the real challenge of the 20 and 21 centu
s have the ability to journey out into the solar system and
beyond, to be citizens of the galaxy, but without scientific
method humans will die out on a devastated planet
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Klortho wrote:
>
>> The
Dream on Brent ...
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Brent Meeker wrote:
> Klortho wrote:
>
>>> The other thing I do is check to what extent a person's speech and
>>> writings support and affirm the four fundamental in
eech and
writings support and affirm the four fundamental ingredients of
civilisation:
Compassion, democracy, ethics and scientific method. No civilisation can
survive without all four of these.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
[EMAIL PROTECTE
Brent: '
Which scientists...ours of theirs?'
MP: Ours. The situation is not static; they would have to KEEP
responding to our scientists' unpredictable forays into basic science,
unpredictable a-priori either to them or to us.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL P
understanding can in time reach just about arbitrarily fine degrees of
resolution. Or, which would be more the worry for 'emulators' who wished
to remain invisible, the emulation would need to be able to be
controlled to a finer resolution than scientists' contemporary
measurem
nk the whole project of Mathematical universe and 'Comp'
may be just a very sophisticated house of cards.] I believe that either
all of our universe as seen on, at and from planet Earth is being
simulated perfectly or none of it is being simulated at all.
Regards
Mark Peaty CD
27; physics, because if we exist and know that we do
it has to be because we BELIEVE in ourselves and our world. Believing in
something IS reifying it. When we understand that the basic mechanism
underlying this process is the activation of a model of whatever it is,
the whole question of mind and
e strongly
tempted to think that some participants on the Jerry Springer [sp?]
show, experience perceptual qualia but nothing else! I am pretty sure
that the majority of mammals and birds are like this, reptiles maybe,
fish also to various degrees. Worms and insects? I dunno.
Regards
Mark Peaty C
ns you will meet
will either be sleep walking or otherwise deficient as a consequence of
drug use or brain trauma. I think Oliver Sachs's book The Man Who
Mistook His Wife For a Hat gives many examples illustrating the point
that all deficiencies in consciousness correlate strictl
The USA is doomed!
What with Hollywood and these people, is there any chance that the US
can really adapt itself to cope with the realities of environmental
changes now coming upon the world?
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Stathis
e entropy seriously. I think this poses problems for
theories of infinite alternative universes which are purported to
have some kind of connection with ours.
And there I ran out of steam!
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Bruno Marchal wrote:
n in my reply to Bruno on this
thread because Bruno has provided the biggest challenge to my, uhhh,
maturing brain. I have no real hopes of discovering a/the 'killer'
argument, apart from claiming that 'Comp' always begs the question.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMA
ithin it!
SO, yes I will ask: What do you mean by 'physical'?
And next: what do you mean by 'exist'?
These are very basic questions, and in our context here, 'dumb'
questions for sure, but without some clarification on how people are
using these words, I don&#
universe; the threads and discourses seem to be expanding
away from me at great speed, so that every time I try to follow and
respond to something, everything seems to have proliferated AND gone
just that little bit further out of reach!
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http:/
Bruno:
" 4) Mark Peaty wrote (to Brent):
As I say, the essence of evil is the act of treating other persons
as things.
I so agree with you. And then, with Church thesis (less than comp, thus)
you can understand the reason why even some (relative) machine and some
(relative) nu
terpenetration and eternal separation of two branes might be just that!]
Numbers are written and imagined as existing in their own right
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Bruno Marchal wrote:
Hi Mark,
(To the other: I will read and com
um
particles, or as individual quantum items manifesting radical
indeterminacy? Either way AIUI, the computational model will manipulate
symbols denoting the real world physics and there is no guarantee that
any such computing system could overcome the limits imposed by entropy
and quantum in
"Mark Peaty wrote: [amongst other things] ...
What scientific method has brought to the human species is the clear
demonstration that ALL beliefs and assumptions are open to question."
Brent M: '
They *should* be, but religious dogma of the Abrahamic theisms is, according
th
a 'machine' to act in an evil manner it would have to be capable of
taking responsibility for its actions otherwise it is only the evil tool
of an evil person.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Brent Meeker wrote:
<>
I think hum
rent enduring structures and
identity of things in the world being entirely emergent properties.
11. 'I could even argue (as I do from times to times) that modern
(post-godelian) mechanism is a sort of very powerful vaccine
against a vast class of reductionist view of both human
now and seeming to
be the same person from day to day, indeed from moment to moment,
is what it is like to be a description of a person, although I
would say that the qualia aspect is actually what it is like to be
the updating of the description. It was ever thus.
Regards,
at this fact is a reflection of how our brains work in
creating the phenomenal reality of our experience [see
http://cns-alumni.bu.edu/~slehar/webstuff/bubw3/bubw3.html#compmech
<http://cns-alumni.bu.edu/%7Eslehar/webstuff/bubw3/bubw3.html#compmech>].
I think that is enough
mit it! And
what lawyers really take scientific method seriously?
I rest my case - for the time being!
:-)
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Brent Meeker wrote:
Mark Peaty wrote:
SP: 'Getting back to the original question about teleportatio
Derek Parfit's copier [/Reasons and Persons/ Ch 10] was
'usually' producing complete and accurate copies, because one of his
scenarios addresses what would happen if there was a fault in the
transmission.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~
emulation in question can interact with an environment like what its
organic original was involved with, the entity in question would be
conscious.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Brent Meeker wrote:
Mark Peaty wrote:
Bruno, Stathis, Brent, Pe
xplicit, active
dynamic logical entities when invoked, and exist only implicitly at
other times as the components of structural particularity in synapses,
dendrite length and location, etc. which came about when the constructs
came into existence in the brain in question.
Regards
Mark Peaty
Thanks for this Peter: I am still chewing on this, with a view to
ultimate digestion.
I do get a certain kind of Angels and pinheads impression about some of
it though. Hopefully that is just an illusion! :-)
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty
dence that I have heard about. I think
William of Occam would be more than happy with what I am putting
forward.
I hope no one is offended by this. Is they are, sorry! But time returns
for no one and you do not have for ever, just all the time there is -
for you. That is what entropy is about.
Regar
ceived experience is that of progressively weakened memory. Not
Alzheimer's which is a league of its own, but just difficulty
remembering certain things.
I am just about to post another message which might stir some angst [or
not in which case 'ho hum'], so I leave this here
addressed to the great IT or Universe:
'Lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from hubris,
for Thine is the location, the duration and the entropy,
for at least the next 15 billion years and maybe for eternity,
Amen!
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.a
For my benefit, could you flesh that out in plain English please?
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
1Z wrote:
Mark Peaty wrote:
SP: 'using the term "comp" as short for "computationalism" as something
picked up from
, rightly or
wrongly, that for the time being at least there is a universe and I am
here and that it is most likely that the universe exists whether I
happen to notice it or not. I think it is bigger than me, in fact much
much bigger!
SP: 'What if we use the word 'cause' rath
rience is much more limited than
that. It would be much truer to say, I think, that this consciousness I
take so much for granted is ABOUT my being here now. As much as anything
I like to characterise it as: the registration of difference between
what my brain predicted for percei
things with the things
themselves. There is a sense in which these are simply manifestations of
the same raw fact of life: the model of something is not the thing, it
is only ABOUT the thing. Amen! :-)
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
St
aking, and the updating of the model of
self in the world would be the experience of self awareness. What it
would be like TO BE the updating of such a model of self in the world is
something we will probably have to wait awhile to be told :-)
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://
say: 'Oh, I don't have time to do that.' or some such, then we are none
the less choosing by default and making ourselves less than what we
thought ourselves to be.
That was longer than I expected but hopefully not too verbose.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www
. But it
also entails a denial of empathy, and a closing off from a part of the
world, an objective assertion that 'they are not us and we are not
them'. This contains within it also a diminution of self, something that
may not be recognised to start with and perhaps never understo
son! And that's a fact! So THERE! And don't you
forget it, or you'll be sorry, or at least your children and their
children will become so! Put that in your pipes all you armchair
philosophers!'
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
the
assertion of this is of course hampered precisely by our lack of
knowledge of the future
This feels incomplete but it needs to be sent.
Regards
Mark Peaty CDES
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/
Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
Brent meeker writes:
Stathis P
ore from the point of view that being able to
do science, and being able to perceive and understand entropy - even if
it is only grasping where crumbs and fluff balls come from - are what
allow us to know that we are NOT in some kind of computer generated
matrix. We live in a real, open universe t
asserted many times before, the most succinct explanation of
phenomenal experience is that it is what it is like to be the updating
of the model of self in the world [UMSITW].
IOW the incorporation of novelty into our sets of tested beliefs.
This is how I relate to your assertion that the ability to
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