date:20060108

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 (OTOH, such unbalance can also happen in the other direction by 
 unnaturally dwelling on positive thoughts, e.g. moodmaking, hiding 
 our heads in the sand, a la the ostrich.)
 
 Since we are in fact the creators of our own realities, whether we 
 chooce to recognize this or not, the answer appears to be to see 
 things as they are, acknowledge our perception, and remain 
balanced.

While I applaud both your insights and your attempt
Jim, I think that at this point trying to talk ration-
ally to Off about 'balance' is sorta like trying to 
sit down with Pat Robertson over coffee and convince
him that 'sin' is all in the mind. :-)

I didn't mean to set him off so badly; I was just 
struck by the fact that he was doing what many TMers
seem to do -- repeat the things they've been told by
TM teachers, over and over (and in Off's case, using
cut and paste to repeat them *verbatim*) -- with the
idea that if they just say them enough times, people
will believe them. It's just the strangest thing; 
it's almost as if they were trying to pass some test,
and if they repeat the things they've been told
exactly enough, they'll get an 'A' in the course. :-)







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[FairfieldLife] Oh, high, oh!?

2006-01-08 Thread cardemaister


Well, the Maharishi became so popular in America that there is, I think 
in Ohio, the Maharishi International University which was founded by 
him in 1971, and it continues to flourish. Young American boys and 
girls go and study there these theories of Transcendental Meditation 
and the like. To date, this year, there are around 100,000 young 
Americans who go constantly year after year to the coast of India in 
search of spiritual enlightenment. You might say: why is it all so 
appealing and so attractive? We see the reason why as we consider the 
beliefs of Hinduism and Eastern mysticism: they all comply with the 
spirit of the age, which is the spirit of New Ageism today in our world.


http://www.preachtheword.com/sermon/cults13.shtml







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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In 
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 TorquiseB writes: Big snip
 The show went on to say that the only sane
 thing to do with skunks is avoid them, because
 pretty much everything scares them, and thus
 if you approach them in any way, you're gonna
 get all stunk up. Sounded like good advice 
 to me...
 
 Tom T:
 An old politician who had been a chicken farmer for the first 
 50 years of his life put it to me this way. Son you have got 
 to learn you are never going to win when you get in a p*ssing 
 contest with a skunk. That advice has been ignored from time 
 to time by me and it has always ended up with me getting p*ssed 
 on. If I remember to avoid the skunkns in the first place, 
 life is a lot smoother and sweeter. i have noticed there are
 some here on FFlife who definitaly fall into that category. Oh
 well we eventually get it. Tom T

While I agree with the theory completely, and have
adopted it as one of my New Year's Resolutions, 
the skunk smell actually doesn't come from pissing,
but from their sweat glands being squished when they
feel fear. I think that's actually a better metaphor
for what's happening. The fear in this case is the
cognitive dissonance caused by encountering a point
of view that they feel is in conflict with their own.
IMO, the skunks are *attached* to their ideas, and
have so little sense of Self, much less a sense of
comfort with self, that any such cognitive dissonance
is perceived as an *attack*. Thus they react to the 
ideas that caused the cognitive dissonace as if the
person who proposed the ideas was an attacker, and 
as if they personally had been attacked. It merely
*looks* and *feels* agressive; but it's really a 
fear phenomenon.  In my opinion, of course...








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Miracles (wasTM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 Regarding 'miracles', whenever I hear that word, I think of more 
 technologically primitive tribes, or children, looking at objects 
 that we see as commonplace; TVs, airplanes, cellphones, etc. and 
 declaring them as miraculous. Similarly, the 'miracles' of a Guru 
 Dev or a Christ or a Buddha. Just depends on where we are sitting, 
 doesn't it?

And on the *value* that we assign to those who can 
perform miracles. If we consider them somehow linked
to what's important -- enlightenment -- then it's
possible to make a mental link. This guy/gal can do
miracles; therefore he/she is enlightened; therefore
I should do whatever he/she says.

Fortunately, since I've seen a *lot* of miracles in
my life, I never made that association. Miracles are
just miracles; in my opinion they indicate absolutely
*nothing* about the miracle-worker's state of con-
sciousness or ability to help one realize enlighen-
ment. Therefore they're just entertainment.

But *as* entertainment, they can be really smokin'...  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Robertson suggests God smote Sharon

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Patrick wrote:
  
  You mean to tell me God cares more about this section 
  of dirt than that section of dirt?
 
 --- Bhairitu wrote:
 
  It's sorta like some people who believe a polluted river in 
  India has special properties.
 
 That said, it occurs to me that selected parts of the 
 world are considered vortexes, or loci of energy. Does 
 the Middle Eastern New Age commuity look upon 
 places there the way Americans view Mount Shasta, 
 Asheville or Sedona? 
 
 Hey, here's an explanation: Jerusalem and the Ganges 
 really do have an added dose of spiritual power, but it's 
 not because God ordained it. It's because humans, for 
 whatever reasons, have invested so much energy into 
 those places over millenia.

I'd say that some places actually *do* have more
power than others. However, it kinda takes a 
seer to see the power. So the vast majority of
people who feel protective and proprietary about
such places are -- again -- just doing what they
were told by their predecessors. They're just
following a tradition they don't really under-
stand or, truth be told, really believe in.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: French kids catching up to US in terms of obesity

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 uh, oh. Barry may need to move to maintain his  ex pat superiority. 
 
 http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/06/060106181326.a9j53yue.html

Nh. My girlfriend right now eats like a horse but
stays model-skinny. I can only envy her genetic code.  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Robertson suggests God smote Sharon

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Der  be a whole lotta smoten goin on.

Thanks for that. You made me spit out my coffee 
laughing, and in a public WiFi cafe to boot, but
this line just made my morning. I can't help but
hear it sung by Jerry Lee Lewis.  :-)








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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 How many of you have actually seen Jyotir Math? It's not that  
 big a deal.

They've seen it in their minds, as it was described
to them by other people who made it seem like a big
deal. The description has become Truth for them;
anything that deviates from this is falsehood.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman,
 Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in
 is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of

Amen, bro. I *never* had any attraction to any of 
that stuff; made it difficult to exist in a movement
where people were so enamored of it.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: French kids catching up to US in terms of obesity

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  uh, oh. Barry may need to move to maintain his  ex pat superiority. 
  
  http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/01/06/060106181326.a9j53yue.html
 
 Nh. My girlfriend right now eats like a horse but
 stays model-skinny. I can only envy her genetic code.  :-)

Cool. As long as she doesn't look like a horse. 

Or smell like a skunk.

Or vice versa I suppose.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-08 Thread Alex Stanley

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 7, 2006, at 6:30 PM, Alex Stanley wrote:
 
  I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman,
  Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've
  arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one
  microsecond of sleep over it.
 
 The inner/outer states don't have any brand names, schools or  
 traditions at all so why worry about it? Really. 

Makes sense.

 But that doesn't change that what might have stated you was x.

Ok, I've read this sentence over and over, and I have no idea what
you're trying to say. Can you clarify?

Alex





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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

2006-01-08 Thread Premanand Paul Mason

'In Yoshimath the Sherpa Nima and I fought a cheerful but obstinately 
contested battle with the aged priest Govindanand. For several weeks 
we had shared the Spartan life of the hermits, eating neither 
vegetables nor fruit, and we craved vitamins. The bazaar at Yoshimath 
could supply only onions and garlic, but with these we were content. 
When the appetising savor of the rice with onions which Nima had 
prepared spread through the building, however, Govindanand burst into 
our cell in a rage. Did we not know, he asked, that onions were 
an 'apple of voluptuousness,' strictly forbidden in the monastery?

No, we did not know it, and we had no voluptuous desires whatever. 
Hostilities ensued, ending with our eating the onions, which we 
really did not want to forgo, raw and at a safe distance from the 
monastery, although this did not diminish the sinful smell that 
emanated from us. Nevertheless, we departed in peace and with the 
priest's blessing.'

From Herbert Tichy, the European explorer and mountaineer, from his 
book 'Himalaya'.




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  How many of you have actually seen Jyotir Math? It's not that  
  big a deal.
 
 They've seen it in their minds, as it was described
 to them by other people who made it seem like a big
 deal. The description has become Truth for them;
 anything that deviates from this is falsehood.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 on 1/7/06 2:18 PM, a_non_moose_ff at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  Of course the humor and silliness in all of the above pales to the
  One(s) who proclaims to BE Brahman and to see Brahamn in all things -
  - and then turns around calls people pissing skunks and that they
  should eat shit and die
 
 The latter phrase was from Tom Pall, who didn't claim to be enlightened,
 just that he was getting a lot of benefit from his Ben Collins
yagyas and
 was feeling blissful. Funniest post ever on FFL IMO.



Why you chose to take out the (paraphrasing) note at the end of the
quote is a mystery. By doing so you distort the post. 

What Tom T did say, along with the pissing skunks slur was something
along the lines of inviting some people who disagree with him to walk
either the short or long plank and/or suck and choke on eggs. Which is
kind of the same sentiment as eat shit and die, but more pithy. (If
not pitta-y) 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Triguna

2006-01-08 Thread MDixon6569







In a message dated 1/7/06 11:04:54 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
From Steve 
  Briggs:When I left 
  Delhi in 2001, Triguna was seeing 300 patients a day starting 9am most days. I 
  haven’t heard that anything’s changed. His clinic is at 143 Sarai Kale Khan 
  near Nizammudin Railway Station.

Thank you Steve.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies



On Jan 8, 2006, at 7:06 AM, Alex Stanley wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   On Jan 7, 2006, at 6:30 PM, Alex Stanley wrote:  I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it.  The inner/outer states don't have any brand names, schools or   traditions at all so why worry about it? Really.   Makes sense.  But that doesn't change that what might have stated you was "x".  Ok, I've read this sentence over and over, and I have no idea what you're trying to say. Can you clarify? You started on a path that helped you get where you are now.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

2006-01-08 Thread MDixon6569







In a message dated 1/8/06 4:43:47 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
They've 
  seen it in their minds, as it was describedto them by other people who 
  made it seem like a bigdeal. The description has become Truth for 
  them;anything that deviates from this is 
falsehood.

It is a special place in that Guru Dev built it and there is a 
charm about the place. However, I doubt it cost a lot of money to 
build.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid



--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  
  
  --- markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
   
   It's good that tmo scientists try to get
 published,
   but the spirit of
   the whole effort seems to fall more under PR
 than
   science - and until
   at least one independent scientist is impressed
   enough by the
   maharishi effect research to begin the long
 process
   of replication,
   then it's still an proven theory.
  
  More a very unusual hypothesis with some slight
  empirical support. Not enough to build a theory on
  becaue there is so much empirical evidence which
  completely contradicts the M.A. theory as it is
 now
  constructed.
  
  
 
 Which emperical evidence contradicts the ME theory?

The prima facie fact that large numbers of meditators
in Fairfield, Iowa have not reduced the crime rate
there. Post hoc explanations/metaphors such as the
washing machine effect indicate that the ME theory
has a long way to go in its development as a formal
theory. I'm not dismissing the ME, but it is far from
a complete theory. Right now it is a hypothesis, not a
theory.




 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened
and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the
difference in expressions and attitudes regarding
enlightenment are just the impact of That on different
mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's
why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is
never going to be total intellectual agreement
regarding That, although That is the same for all.
This 20 point list is just the concern of a particular
mind on the impact of That on his/her mind.

--- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Skunk button pushing comments snipped for brevity.
 Comment below
 
 Alex writes:
  Is it your belief that an enlightened person no
 longer has an ego or
  conditioned mind?
 Akasha/Anon writes:
 I think the term enlightenment is a label, that
 serves little
 positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides.
 Its quite clear
 that various people define the term in quite
 different ways -- those
 from different traditions and even those
 proclaiming to be living
 the label. Just today's post illustrates such. 
 
 Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite
 sharply disagree
 on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday.
  
 
 Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened
 and various
 traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to
 is your question
 about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is
 a ego in
 enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly
 disagrees -- stated
 emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego
 can be found --
 and it is on this single criteria that he claims
 enlightenment. 
 
 (Though ironically, thre is some individuality in
 the peter-sphere
 that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets
 bent out of shape
 and lashes out in anger.) 
 
 And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states
 emphatically, and
 with even more words than Peter, that there indeed
 is an ego in
 enlightenment, but it no longer rules like it does
 pre-enlightnment
 -- it becomes subordinate to the Self. 
 
 Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone
 who thinks there
 is no ego in enlightenment is insane.
 
 And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise
 of your question
 stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an
 ego (and
 conditioned mind) in enlightnement. 
 
 Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far
 as to say that he
 simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement,
 then realized 
 that whcih he defined, and then started using the
 title enlightenment
 -- even though his definition was his own and
 neither a traditional
 one nor the TMO one.
 
 And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are
 milions of
 diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he
 calls them. 
 
 Further Peter, again -- just today -- refers to cc
 as baby
 realization or baby enlightenment. Yet, if you
 refer to the archives,
 you will find a post from Tom where he ranted on
 and on (IMO) in a
 long post why calling cc as baby anything was
 paraphrasing, stupid,
 insane and agenda laden. 
 
 Off cites MMY recently as saying enlightenment is 24
 hour bliss.
 Peter, greatly discounts bliss, repeatedly stating
 that bliss is dumb. 
 
 My own experience of bliss-saturated states in
 activity is that anger,
 ego-driven activities, and glomminess (a fairly
 regular quality of
 Tom's posts) cannot be found -- and are found
 impossible to arise. 
 Whatever that state is, and/or MMY's  24-hour
 bliss enlightenment,
 clearly they have little to do with Peter's and
 Tom's experience with
 whatever they experience and label as
 enlightenment (experience used
 in broad sense of ' experiencing a state of
 consciousness' not like 'I
 experience the flower').
 
 So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I
 have with the  use of
 the label enlightenment. And also the phenomenon
 of
 self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment.
 
 My original comments, abve, on Tom's post are part
 of my periodic
 laughter at the ironies, paradoxes and/or
 inconsistencies sxpressed by
  so-called self-proclaimed enlightened. Tom
 proclaims that it is
 solely Brahman  who seees through Tom's eyes and
 types throuhg Tom's
 fingers. So when Tom regularly lasses out in (IMO)
 appears as gloom,
 anger, and silly reasoning, it makes me laugh.
 Similar to my laughter
 when Peter claims absolutely no ego exists yet
 feels deeply insulted
 at times. And my laughter at the band of
 self-proclaimed enlightened
 as they stumble over themselves in expressing
 contractiory attributes
 of the assumed (by the casual reader) commonality of
 the label
 enlightenment (when in fact they are each defining
 the state in
 different ways.)
 
 Tom T:
 Have your ever heard of the Paradox of Brahman? Is
 it possible that
 this conundrum is something the mind can not fathom.
 Or is it Jaimini?
 H!
 Enjoy! Tom T
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- a_non_moose_ff wrote:

 --- Patrick wrote:
  It makes me think I'm in CC. 
 
 Is that important to you?

I'd like to be enlightened, yeah, even if it's baby 
enlightenment. But it's a casual desire, like my 
desires for wealth and women. I'd like to have them, 
but I'm not going to bother taking the extreme 
measures that would be necessary to dramatically 
alter my present situation.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.



--- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick
 Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- Vaj wrote:
  
   IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level
 of  
   transformation to uproot vasanas. 
  
  Another recurrent theme of this list. For some of
 us, TM led to 
 investigations into ways to 
  uproot those vasanas. Others have been blacklisted
 from the TMO for 
 making those 
  investigations.
 
 
 For some, perhaps TM automatically uproots the
 vasanas.

I agree. I used to be an asshole, now I'm an a*s*ol*.



 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Digest Number 4232



--- steven klayman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 I still do my 2 times a day meditation which i told
 shree maa was my favorite sadhana. It has just
 gotten
 deeper and more blissful.
 
 namaste
 steve

Steve, it's interesting that the primary impact of
Kalki's deeksha is bliss. Are you having all sorts of
subtle experiences too-siddhis, visions, past lives,
soma? I'm asking because in my own experience all
these blissful things came hard and heavy right before
the identification of consciousness with any vehicle 
broke. Have people talked about Nirguna Brahman
opening-up or absolute emptiness/silence awakening? 



 
 
   
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Maitreya, was: Digest Number 4224



--- markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  
   on 1/6/06 12:31 AM, steven klayman at
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
TM was a great starter  technique, good for
 blood
pressure, stress, etc. It starter millions on
 the
   path
of spirituality. MMY did a great job. He said
 in
   1974
when asked  if he was the Maitreya that he was
 the
predecessor to the Maitreya.
   
   So do you think Bhagavan (the diksha guy) is the
   Maitreya?
  
  Maitreya is some astral being's idea of a joke,
 yes?
 
 Most definitely an astral being having some fun -
 plus why can't
 humans get over the myth of some guy coming down
 from the sky to save
 them?  Has never happened, never will.

Jesus, I know! (Wow, there all all kinds of levels to
that response!)



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 
 
 




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Green - TMO

2006-01-08 Thread uns_tressor

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 I heard that Ford has developed a 
car that runs on Distilled 
 water.??  Does anyone have information 
on it.?   Exc. Bevan Morris 
 spoke some years back on a car that can 
run 5,000 kilometres without 
 any need for re-fueling.

There are several technologies which may add
up to this. Google for Linnard Griffin to 
find catalytic cracking of water into hydrogen
and oxygen gases. Also, Stan Meyer, Browns
gas.
These links take H2 and put it into a car:
http://pah.cert.ucr.edu/~macm/ford.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_38/b3699304.htm
Uns.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Green - TMO

2006-01-08 Thread uns_tressor

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, uns_tressor 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ingegerd 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason Spock 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  I heard that Ford has developed a 
 car that runs on Distilled 
  water.??  Does anyone have information 
 on it.?   Exc. Bevan Morris 
  spoke some years back on a car that can 
 run 5,000 kilometres without 
  any need for re-fueling.
 
 There are several technologies which may add
 up to this. Google for Linnard Griffin to 
 find catalytic cracking of water into hydrogen
 and oxygen gases. Also, Stan Meyer, Browns
 gas.
 These links take H2 and put it into a car:
 http://pah.cert.ucr.edu/~macm/ford.htm
 http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_38/b3699304.htm
 Uns.

Don't forget that there is more than one hydrogen
concept. The gas can be run into the cyliner and
burnt - not as easy as it sounds - or it can be
coupled up to a fuel cell, turned into electricity
and then fed into any conventional electric motor,
or an eccentric one like the Takahashi:
These links are better:
http://pah.cert.ucr.edu/~macm/h2.htm
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm
http://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_779.shtml








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened
 and join the fun. 

For some reason, when I read this I heard the
Kingston Trio singing in the background:

I see by your outfit that you are enlightened
You see my my outfit that I'm enlightened, too
Get yourself an outfit
And be enlightened, too.

:-)

 But in all seriousness, the
 difference in expressions and attitudes regarding
 enlightenment are just the impact of That on different
 mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's
 why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is
 never going to be total intellectual agreement
 regarding That, although That is the same for all.
 This 20 point list is just the concern of a particular
 mind on the impact of That on his/her mind.

Yup. But I liked that mind's emphasis on being
funny. Funny is good.  :-)

 --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Skunk button pushing comments snipped for brevity.
  Comment below
  
  Alex writes:
   Is it your belief that an enlightened person no
  longer has an ego or
   conditioned mind?
  Akasha/Anon writes:
  I think the term enlightenment is a label, that
  serves little
  positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides.
  Its quite clear
  that various people define the term in quite
  different ways -- those
  from different traditions and even those
  proclaiming to be living
  the label. Just today's post illustrates such. 
  
  Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite
  sharply disagree
  on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday.
   
  
  Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened
  and various
  traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to
  is your question
  about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is
  a ego in
  enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly
  disagrees -- stated
  emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego
  can be found --
  and it is on this single criteria that he claims
  enlightenment. 
  
  (Though ironically, thre is some individuality in
  the peter-sphere
  that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets
  bent out of shape
  and lashes out in anger.) 
  
  And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states
  emphatically, and
  with even more words than Peter, that there indeed
  is an ego in
  enlightenment, but it no longer rules like it does
  pre-enlightnment
  -- it becomes subordinate to the Self. 
  
  Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone
  who thinks there
  is no ego in enlightenment is insane.
  
  And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise
  of your question
  stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an
  ego (and
  conditioned mind) in enlightnement. 
  
  Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far
  as to say that he
  simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement,
  then realized 
  that whcih he defined, and then started using the
  title enlightenment
  -- even though his definition was his own and
  neither a traditional
  one nor the TMO one.
  
  And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are
  milions of
  diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he
  calls them. 
  
  Further Peter, again -- just today -- refers to cc
  as baby
  realization or baby enlightenment. Yet, if you
  refer to the archives,
  you will find a post from Tom where he ranted on
  and on (IMO) in a
  long post why calling cc as baby anything was
  paraphrasing, stupid,
  insane and agenda laden. 
  
  Off cites MMY recently as saying enlightenment is 24
  hour bliss.
  Peter, greatly discounts bliss, repeatedly stating
  that bliss is dumb. 
  
  My own experience of bliss-saturated states in
  activity is that anger,
  ego-driven activities, and glomminess (a fairly
  regular quality of
  Tom's posts) cannot be found -- and are found
  impossible to arise. 
  Whatever that state is, and/or MMY's  24-hour
  bliss enlightenment,
  clearly they have little to do with Peter's and
  Tom's experience with
  whatever they experience and label as
  enlightenment (experience used
  in broad sense of ' experiencing a state of
  consciousness' not like 'I
  experience the flower').
  
  So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I
  have with the  use of
  the label enlightenment. And also the phenomenon
  of
  self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment.
  
  My original comments, abve, on Tom's post are part
  of my periodic
  laughter at the ironies, paradoxes and/or
  inconsistencies sxpressed by
   so-called self-proclaimed enlightened. Tom
  proclaims that it is
  solely Brahman  who seees through Tom's eyes and
  types throuhg Tom's
  fingers. So when Tom regularly lasses out in (IMO)
  appears as gloom,
  anger, and silly reasoning, it makes me laugh.
  Similar to my laughter
  when Peter claims absolutely no ego exists yet
  feels deeply insulted
  at times. And my laughter at the band of
  self-proclaimed

[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- a_non_moose_ff wrote:
  --- Patrick wrote:
   It makes me think I'm in CC. 
  
  Is that important to you?
 
 I'd like to be enlightened, yeah, even if it's baby 
 enlightenment. But it's a casual desire, like my 
 desires for wealth and women. I'd like to have them, 
 but I'm not going to bother taking the extreme 
 measures that would be necessary to dramatically 
 alter my present situation.

Having spent the last week in Paris, I have 
been reminded that when it comes to the desire
for wealth and women, if one achieves the first,
the second seems to follow. :-)

This is a city full of wealthy older men on whose
arms are women who would never be seen with them
except for the fact that they're wealthy.  Go
figure.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maitreya, was: Digest Number 4224

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 --- markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Most definitely an astral being having some fun -
  plus why can't
  humans get over the myth of some guy coming down
  from the sky to save
  them?  Has never happened, never will.
 
 Jesus, I know! (Wow, there all all kinds of levels to
 that response!)

Synchronicity time. :-) As I was reading this, one
of my favorite Don Henley songs started playing on 
the sound system here at this Internet pub:

From the Arizona desert
To the Salisbury Plain
Lights on the horizon
Patterns on the grain
Anxious eyes turned upward
Clutching souvenirs
Carrying our highest hopes and our darkest fears

They swear there was an accident back in '47
Little man with a great big head
Splattered down from heaven
Government conspiracy; cover-ups and lies
Hidden in the desert under endless skies

Well, it's a cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold
Post, postmodern world
No time for heroes, no place for good guys
No room for Rocky The Flying Squirrel

They're not here, they're not coming
Not in a million years
Turn your weary eyes back homeward
Stop your trembling, dry your tears
You may see the heavens flashing
You may hear the cosmos humming
But I promise you, my brother
They're not here, they're not coming

Would they pile into the saucer
Find Orlando's rat and hug it?
Go screaming through the universe
Just to get McNuggets?
Well, I don't think so, I don't think so
It's much too dangerous, it's much too strange
Here in a world that won't give Oprah no home on the range

Well, it's a cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold
Post, postmodern world
No authenticity, no sign of soul
The radio won't play George and Merle

They're not here, they're not coming
Not in a million years
'Til we put away our hatred
'Til we lay aside our fears
You may see the heavens flashing
You may hear the cosmos humming
But I promise you, my sister
They're not here, they're not coming

To this garden we were given
And always took for granted
It's like my daddy told me, You just bloom where you're planted.
Now you long to be delivered
From this world of pain and strife
That's a sorry substitution for a spiritual life







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[FairfieldLife] Name that tune (was: Re: Maitreya)

What's the title of this song? I've not heard it. The lyrics are great. I'd 
like to sample it at 
the iTunes store.

Thanks.

--- Don Henley:
 
 From the Arizona desert
 To the Salisbury Plain
 Lights on the horizon
 Patterns on the grain
 Anxious eyes turned upward
 Clutching souvenirs
 Carrying our highest hopes and our darkest fears
 
 They swear there was an accident back in '47
 Little man with a great big head
 Splattered down from heaven
 Government conspiracy; cover-ups and lies
 Hidden in the desert under endless skies
 
 Well, it's a cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold, cold
 Post, postmodern world
 No time for heroes, no place for good guys
 No room for Rocky The Flying Squirrel
 
 They're not here, they're not coming
 Not in a million years
 Turn your weary eyes back homeward
 Stop your trembling, dry your tears
 You may see the heavens flashing
 You may hear the cosmos humming
 But I promise you, my brother
 They're not here, they're not coming






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- TurquoiseB wrote:

 This is a city full of wealthy older men on whose
 arms are women who would never be seen with them
 except for the fact that they're wealthy.

So I've noticed. But it was not until this post that I was 
inspired to buy Diamonds are a girl's best friend from 
iTunes. 

   Men grow cold as girls grow old
   and we all lose our charms in the end.
   But square-cut or pear-shaped
   these rocks don't lose their shape
   Diamonds are a girl's best friend

From Gentlemen Prefer Blondes 
Music by Jules Styne, lyrics by Leo Robin





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[FairfieldLife] Name that tune (was: Re: Maitreya)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What's the title of this song? I've not heard it. The lyrics 
 are great. I'd like to sample it at the iTunes store.
 
 Thanks.

It's called They're not here, they're not coming, 
from Don's Inside Job album.  He's a master of 
the wry, satirical social comment.  While you're
sampling, try this one from the Eagles' Hell 
Freezes Over album:


Get Over It

I turn on the tube and what do I see
A whole lotta people cryin' 'Don't blame me'
They point their crooked little fingers ar everybody else
Spend all their time feelin' sorry for themselves
Victim of this, victim of that
Your momma's too thin; your daddy's too fat

Get over it
Get over it
All this whinin' and cryin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

You say you haven't been the same since you had your little crash
But you might feel better if I gave you some cash
The more I think about it, old billy was right
Let's kill all the lawyers, kill 'em tonight
You don't want to work, you want to live like a king
But the big, bad world doesn't owe you a thing

Get over it
Get over it
If you don't want to play, then you might as well split
Get over it, get over it

It's like going to confession every time I hear you speak
You're makin' the most of your losin' streak
Some call it sick, but I call it weak

You drag it around like a ball and chain
You wallow in the guilt; you wallow in the pain
You wave it like a flag, you wear it like a crown
Got your mind in the gutter, bringin' everybody down
Complain about the present and blame it on the past
I'd like to find your inner child and kick it's little ass

Get over it
Get over it
All this bitchin' and moanin' and pitchin' a fit
Get over it, get over it

Get over it
Get over it
It's gotta stop sometime, so why don't you quit
Get over it, get over it


BTW, the story behind this song is interesting.  The
Eagles broke up because two of the dominant person-
alities in the group, Don Henley and Glenn Frey, just
couldn't stand being in the same room with each other
any more.  They broke up and spent something like
12 years without ever seeing each other. Then their
studio proposed an Eagles reunion tour, and for 
whatever reason, all parties concerned thought it
might be an interesting thing to do.

So Don and Glenn agreed to get together, for literally
the first time in 12 years, at one of their houses.
While they were sitting around and catching up on
old times that afternoon, they wrote three songs,
including this one.

It's amazing to me that sometimes the *synergy* that
defines a creative team like Henley/Frey or Jagger/
Richards or Lennon/McCartney transends any of the
petty squabbles that may come up over time.  These
two guys write great songs together; that's just 
what they do.  Separate them for 12 years and when
they get together, what do they do within a few
short hours?  Write more great songs.

BTW, if you're sampling Inside Job, also check
out For My Wedding and Everything Is Different
Now and My Thanksgiving.  Three of the loveliest
songs ever recorded.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Ramana Maharshi's 4 Technologies of Evolution (was: The New Advaitins)

2006-01-08 Thread Rick Archer

on 1/3/06 12:16 PM, Michael Dean Goodman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Sometimes people criticize Maharishi for putting attention on these very
 relative, very material practices.  But my take is that his compassion
 for, and attention to, the whole population is incredible.  He could have
 merely sat on the peak, waiting for the cream to rise and come to him,
 and given them the Self-inquiry and final strokes of mahavakyas (which is
 what some neo-advaitins do today).  That would make him a rishi.  But
 what makes him a maha-rishi, a great rishi, is that he makes the know-
 ledge available to everyone, not just the spiritually elite; that he
 takes into account the welfare of all the people of the world, not just
 the spiritual few; that he dives down into the mud, rather than sitting
 in the Himalayas in serene, pure obscurity.

Thanks for the discussion and commentary, Michael. Very helpful. My only
comment is on the above. He may not have made things available just to the
spiritually elite, but he certainly has restricted most of what he has
offered in recent years to the financially elite. For that he loses
compassion brownie points.

A while back you sent me a list of your posts, with post numbers, so that I
could include them in the FFL index I was working on. I gave up on that
project because it was too time-consuming and instead started an index that
everyone could work on. I started adding your posts to it. If you would like
to continue, it's at http://tinyurl.com/9olk9

Thanks.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-08 Thread mrfishey2001



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened
and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the
difference in expressions and attitudes regarding
enlightenment are just the impact of That on different
mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's
why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is
never going to be total intellectual agreement
regarding That, although That is the same for all.
This 20 point list is just the concern of a particular
mind on the impact of That on his/her mind.


just the impact of That on different
mind-streams

Gangaji Ð yes, I stood next to this person once in a museum. We were 
both admiring a recent Cezanne acquisition at the Met. I made mention 
of the delicate treatment of light and form; how the artist managed a 
rare veneration and respect for each object. I remember Gangaji 
saying, itÕs just oil paint. 

-











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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

HAHAHAHA. 

Peter, the ever extending audacity of your doublespeak, and that of
your pals, never ceases to amaze me.  There absolutely is no ego in
E., but there is an ego in E. ... la de dah. 

Its a technique of cults to ask memebers to acccpt as true bigger and
bigger lies and inconsistencies. After a while, the cult members
rational faculties are so weak or suspended, the cult leaders can
suggest anything and the cultists accept it -- without question. 

Kool-aid anyone?

(Following are paraphrased complilations of past proclamations of Peter. )

Peter: In enlightenment there is absolutely no sense of indiviuality
or ego. It is the sole and defining characteristic of enlightenment.
And anyone who says so is not yet enlightened. 

Man 2: Well I am enlightened and I have a sense of ego.

Peter: Yes, you must be enlightened. Its just impact of That on
different mind-streams that makes me say the above.  My view is
totally consistent with your reasonable and clearly true view.

Man 3: Yes, its the paradox of Brahman. 

Peter: But I do get so damn insulted and so very personally pissed off
when people try to point out contradictions in the above. 

Man 4: Peter, if there is absolutely no sense individuality, what or
who is feeling insulted and feeilng anger?

Peter: Fuck you, you asshole! You just NEVER will get it because you
are so unevolved. You waking state moron!

Man 5: God created the earth 5000 years ago, and planted dinasaur
bones just to test our faith.

Man 3: Yes, its the paradox of Brahman. 

Man 5: An inventor says he has invented a perpetual motion machine,
and wants me to invest all my money. But science says thats
impossible.   What should I do?

Man 3: Its the paradox of Brahman. Its a sign from Brahman. Invest my
son. Invest.

Man 6: 20 years ago I joined this great individual / social
transformation group, and devoted my life to it, and instead of
getting smarter, healthier, more social or creating world peace, the
organization became a really wierd cult that wants all my money, while
I can't even pay my bills.  

Man 3: Its the paradox of Brahman. Drink the cool-aid, Luke. 






--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
wrote:

 Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened
 and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the
 difference in expressions and attitudes regarding
 enlightenment are just the impact of That on different
 mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's
 why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is
 never going to be total intellectual agreement
 regarding That, although That is the same for all.
 This 20 point list is just the concern of a particular
 mind on the impact of That on his/her mind.
 
 --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Skunk button pushing comments snipped for brevity.
  Comment below
  
  Alex writes:
   Is it your belief that an enlightened person no
  longer has an ego or
   conditioned mind?
  Akasha/Anon writes:
  I think the term enlightenment is a label, that
  serves little
  positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides.
  Its quite clear
  that various people define the term in quite
  different ways -- those
  from different traditions and even those
  proclaiming to be living
  the label. Just today's post illustrates such. 
  
  Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite
  sharply disagree
  on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday.
   
  
  Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened
  and various
  traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to
  is your question
  about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is
  a ego in
  enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly
  disagrees -- stated
  emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego
  can be found --
  and it is on this single criteria that he claims
  enlightenment. 
  
  (Though ironically, thre is some individuality in
  the peter-sphere
  that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets
  bent out of shape
  and lashes out in anger.) 
  
  And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states
  emphatically, and
  with even more words than Peter, that there indeed
  is an ego in
  enlightenment, but it no longer rules like it does
  pre-enlightnment
  -- it becomes subordinate to the Self. 
  
  Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone
  who thinks there
  is no ego in enlightenment is insane.
  
  And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise
  of your question
  stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an
  ego (and
  conditioned mind) in enlightnement. 
  
  Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far
  as to say that he
  simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement,
  then realized 
  that whcih he defined, and then started using the
  title enlightenment
  -- even though his definition was his own and
  neither a traditional
  one nor the TMO one.
  
  And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are
  milions of
  diferent types

[FairfieldLife] Name that tune (was: Re: Maitreya)

--- TurquoiseB wrote:
 
 It's called They're not here, they're not coming, 
 from Don's Inside Job album.  He's a master of 
 the wry, satirical social comment.  While you're
 sampling, try this one from the Eagles' Hell 
 Freezes Over album:
 
 Get Over It
 
 BTW, if you're sampling Inside Job, also check
 out For My Wedding and Everything Is Different
 Now and My Thanksgiving.  Three of the loveliest
 songs ever recorded.

Thanks for the leads. Unfortunately they point 
up a problem with digital rights; just as iTunes 
doesn't have essentials such as Radiohead and 
the Beatles, it lacks Get Over It and My 
Thanksgiving. (Hell Freezes Over is totally absent.)
It's a bit frustrating, but I can't afford all the music
I'd like to buy anyway.

Someone at the iTunes store may cover Get Over It. 
There are 28 songs by that title there. I've run across 
that before there -- certain phrases or figures of 
speech invite songwriters to explore them, and before 
you know it you've got enough different songs of the 
same title to fill an album. If I were a disc jockey on
an alternative radio station I could fill hours playing
themed programs like that.

For example, the MUM radio station, were it free to
do so and had the budget, could play the 32 songs
that have Transcend in the title.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened
 and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the
 difference in expressions and attitudes regarding
 enlightenment are just the impact of That on different
 mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's
 why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is
 never going to be total intellectual agreement
 regarding That, although That is the same for all.

The reason there isn't intellectual agreement, it
would seem to me, is that such agreement depends
on language.  It's sort of like a gathering of
poets discussing how to describe a particular
tree.  Each poet will use words differently in
his/her description, because the job of a poet
is to convey his/her subjective impressions, not
to provide an objective picture as a scientist
would.  So the poets will never come to 
intellectual agreement as to how to describe
the tree.

An enlightened person must of necessity be a poet
in describing his/her subjective state because there
*is* no way to describe that state objectively.  It
would be as unlikely for two enlightened people to
agree on a description of the enlightened state, even
if that state is the same for all, as it would be
for two poets to agree on a description of the tree.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  How many of you have actually seen Jyotir Math? It's not that  
  big a deal.
 
 They've seen it in their minds, as it was described
 to them by other people who made it seem like a big
 deal. The description has become Truth for them;
 anything that deviates from this is falsehood.

FWIW, I've never heard a description of Jyotir Math
in the TM context.  Have you?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-08 Thread mrfishey2001



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

HAHAHAHA. 
 
Peter, the ever extending audacity of your doublespeak, and that of
your pals, never ceases to amaze me.  There absolutely is no ego in
E., but there is an ego in E. ... la de dah. 




Also the mark of gifted psychotherapist Ð one unafraid of igniting the 
intellectual fire in others.





















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[FairfieldLife] Re: Turquoise B kicks himself in the nuts.....again.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  (OTOH, such unbalance can also happen in the other direction by 
  unnaturally dwelling on positive thoughts, e.g. moodmaking, 
hiding 
  our heads in the sand, a la the ostrich.)
  
  Since we are in fact the creators of our own realities, whether 
we 
  chooce to recognize this or not, the answer appears to be to see 
  things as they are, acknowledge our perception, and remain 
 balanced.
 
 While I applaud both your insights and your attempt
 Jim, I think that at this point trying to talk ration-
 ally to Off about 'balance' is sorta like trying to 
 sit down with Pat Robertson over coffee and convince
 him that 'sin' is all in the mind. :-)
 
 I didn't mean to set him off so badly; I was just 
 struck by the fact that he was doing what many TMers
 seem to do -- repeat the things they've been told by
 TM teachers, over and over (and in Off's case, using
 cut and paste to repeat them *verbatim*) -- with the
 idea that if they just say them enough times, people
 will believe them. It's just the strangest thing; 
 it's almost as if they were trying to pass some test,
 and if they repeat the things they've been told
 exactly enough, they'll get an 'A' in the course. :-)

Or, they've heard these things from TM teachers,
have pondered them in light of their own experience,
observation, and intellect, and decided that they
agreed.

One more time: This mantra that if a TMer repeats
something a TM teacher has said, it can only be
because the TMer has accepted in unquestioningly
and is therefore just parroting it, is a
thought-stopping canard.  In *some* cases that may 
well be accurate, but it isn't in other cases.

This thought-stopping mantra is designed to enable
the person who repeats it over and over and over to
dismiss the idea in question without having to
consider it on its merits.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened
  and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the
  difference in expressions and attitudes regarding
  enlightenment are just the impact of That on different
  mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's
  why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is
  never going to be total intellectual agreement
  regarding That, although That is the same for all.
 
 The reason there isn't intellectual agreement, it
 would seem to me, is that such agreement depends
 on language.  It's sort of like a gathering of
 poets discussing how to describe a particular
 tree.  Each poet will use words differently in
 his/her description, because the job of a poet
 is to convey his/her subjective impressions, not
 to provide an objective picture as a scientist
 would.  So the poets will never come to 
 intellectual agreement as to how to describe
 the tree.
 
 An enlightened person must of necessity be a poet
 in describing his/her subjective state because there
 *is* no way to describe that state objectively.  It
 would be as unlikely for two enlightened people to
 agree on a description of the enlightened state, even
 if that state is the same for all, as it would be
 for two poets to agree on a description of the tree.

Judy, I agree with you in the abstract. In the past, I have even used
the same analogy of poets (or was it artists) describing the same thing.

But in the specifics of this particular discussion, the poetic analogy
does not hold up. We are not talking about various nuances or
impressions. We are talking about emphatic, absolute statements that
are in clear contradiction. 

And while some may try to pawn that off as the paradox of Brahman, I
suggest such ploys are a head in the sands of absurdity.

The specific point at hand are Peter's often repeated claims (#1) that:

1) Peter: There is absolutley no ego or sense of individuality in
enlightenment and anyone who cliams there is is not enlightened.

2) Other self-proclaimed enlightened ones: There is an ego in
enlightenemt and anyone who says that there is not is insane.

3) Peter (recently): All of this is all consistent, this is just the
impact of THAT on different minds.

4) Peter: And the fact that there is some personal and individual part
of me that still feels insulted and gets angry at percieved slights is
totally consistent with point #1. 




This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The
four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its
not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double
speak pusshing its own limits. 










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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
snip
 While I agree with the theory completely, and have
 adopted it as one of my New Year's Resolutions, 
 the skunk smell actually doesn't come from pissing,
 but from their sweat glands being squished when they
 feel fear. I think that's actually a better metaphor
 for what's happening. The fear in this case is the
 cognitive dissonance caused by encountering a point
 of view that they feel is in conflict with their own.
 IMO, the skunks are *attached* to their ideas, and
 have so little sense of Self, much less a sense of
 comfort with self, that any such cognitive dissonance
 is perceived as an *attack*. Thus they react to the 
 ideas that caused the cognitive dissonace as if the
 person who proposed the ideas was an attacker, and 
 as if they personally had been attacked. It merely
 *looks* and *feels* agressive; but it's really a 
 fear phenomenon.  In my opinion, of course...

Unless, of course, the person who proposed the ideas
*was* making a personal attack in the course of doing
so.  E.g.:

You people have *really* been trained to accept the
status quo and praise anything labeled 'Vedic,'
haven't you? Do you salivate when Maharishi rings
a little bell? :-)

This was the attack that began the exchange in
question.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 snip
  While I agree with the theory completely, and have
  adopted it as one of my New Year's Resolutions, 
  the skunk smell actually doesn't come from pissing,
  but from their sweat glands being squished when they
  feel fear. I think that's actually a better metaphor
  for what's happening. The fear in this case is the
  cognitive dissonance caused by encountering a point
  of view that they feel is in conflict with their own.
  IMO, the skunks are *attached* to their ideas, and
  have so little sense of Self, much less a sense of
  comfort with self, that any such cognitive dissonance
  is perceived as an *attack*. Thus they react to the 
  ideas that caused the cognitive dissonace as if the
  person who proposed the ideas was an attacker, and 
  as if they personally had been attacked. It merely
  *looks* and *feels* agressive; but it's really a 
  fear phenomenon.  In my opinion, of course...
 
 Unless, of course, the person who proposed the ideas
 *was* making a personal attack in the course of doing
 so.  E.g.:
 
 You people have *really* been trained to accept the
 status quo and praise anything labeled 'Vedic,'
 haven't you? Do you salivate when Maharishi rings
 a little bell? :-)
 
 This was the attack that began the exchange in
 question.

Come on Judy. Thats not a contradiction or inconsistancy. Barry is
just beautifully and innocently expressing the Parodox of Brahman. Its
all so Beautiful.  

Let go of your rational faculties. Be Enlightened NOW! Its all so
Beautiful. 

:)








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies



On Jan 8, 2006, at 1:31 PM, authfriend wrote:But when the person says there is no ego in enlightenment, perhaps they are speaking of the Self, what they now identify with.  The trick is to make it clear which--self or Self--is the referent in a particular statement.  If it's not made clear, confusion and apparent contradiction may result. Ken Wilber will use self, small "s" and Self, capital "S" or "ego" for ahamkara, and Transcendental Ego for Self or Atman. Also "ego" and "Ego". Nice way to make the distinction in English.Of course that's only if you believe or experience that there is an Atman





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

  But in the specifics of this particular discussion, the poetic 
 analogy
  does not hold up. We are not talking about various nuances or
  impressions. We are talking about emphatic, absolute statements that
  are in clear contradiction.
 
 The *statements*--the words--appear to be in clear
 contradiction, but that may simply be a function of
 trying to nail down in words a state that transcends
 words.  That two people use different words to 
 describe the state does not necessarily mean that
 the state they're describing is inherently different
 in each of them.

Again, I agree in the abstract, but not with the specifics of this
discussion: 

1) There absolutely is not ego and anyone who finds such is not
enlightened

2) There is an ego in enlightenement (and some have said you are
insane if you think there is not.)

These are not subtle semantic disagreements, not a stumbling to
capture suble nuance. 

And the tone of each is emphatic. Not I sort of see it like this
In the case of statement #1, its a oft repeated, absolutist,
emphatatic declaration. Not too much room for ambiguity in its
interpretation.
 
 It may *be* different, but you can't be sure of that
 on the basis of the fact that they use different
 (even apparently contradictory) words to describe it.

See above. Peter has a take no prisioners appraoch in his absolutist
declarations. He leaves NO doubt that in his view if there is ANY
trace of ego, there is NO enlightenemnt.

 
  And while some may try to pawn that off as the paradox of 
  Brahman, I suggest such ploys are a head in the sands of absurdity.
 
 You might suggest it, but it's possible that it's
 not the case.  Or it may be a matter of laziness,
 or inability to put things in words more clearly,
 rather than head-in-the-sand.

It may be a type of pretty extreme semantic laziness or slopiness --
build on a house of cards foundation of a very hazy and blind-spot
prone interpreation of ones experience. 

 
  The specific point at hand are Peter's often repeated claims (#1)
  that:
  
  1) Peter: There is absolutley no ego or sense of individuality in
  enlightenment and anyone who cliams there is is not enlightened.
  
  2) Other self-proclaimed enlightened ones: There is an ego in
  enlightenemt and anyone who says that there is not is insane.
  
  3) Peter (recently): All of this is all consistent, this is just the
  impact of THAT on different minds.
  
  4) Peter: And the fact that there is some personal and individual 
  part of me that still feels insulted and gets angry at percieved 
  slights is totally consistent with point #1. 
  
  
  This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. 
  The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or 
  insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic 
  license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits.
 
 I'm not sure how you can state this with such certainty.
 Seems to me it could well be a matter of semantics.  It
 could also be a matter of *sloppy* semantics.

See above. Its the emphaticness and absolutist thrust of the
statements over time that drive my conclusions above. But as I said, I
am open to a hypothesis that it is a phenomenon of very sloppy and
blind-spot prone interpretation and articulation of 'experiences' 

Thats one reason I am pressing the point. To help people face the
inconsistencies of their claims and help them reconcile them -- either
with clearer semantics or reappraisal of what they think they experience.

 
 The way MMY explains it, for example, is that enlightenment
 is a matter of what one identifies with: the self (the ego)
 or the Self.  The self doesn't go away in the state of
 enlightenment, it's just no longer what one identifies
 with.  

But that is NOT how Peter repeated describes his state. He borrows
from, or is parallel in expression with, neo-advaitists in declaring
forcefully that there is NO trace of ego left. For him, per his
experessions, its Not a matter of degree of identifiction with self vs
Self. No trace of self, indviduality or ego remains!! is his report.


 That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened
 can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted.

Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a
body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the
sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego,
then how can the sense of ego be diminished?
 
 But when the person says there is no ego in enlightenment,
 perhaps they are speaking of the Self, what they now
 identify with.  

That may be the case with some people who say that. Per his often
repeated claims, itis NOT what Peter is referring to.

 The trick is to make it clear which--self
 or Self--is the referent in a particular statement.  If
 it's

[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-08 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in
 enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather
 than the Self but simply not making that distinction
 clear.  It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked
 them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd
 find they were in agreement.

Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in 
enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification 
shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the 
disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self 
disappears. Hope this helps.

Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining where he 
is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real 
creepy dude.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-08 Thread mrfishey2001



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:


 
Howewer I find no reason to assume as  a priori true that Peter is a
gifted psychotherapist or that this is his stategy.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is just double talk, a
hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity.



Your cigar analogy aside, I canÕt imagine what would posses you to 
create a complilations of past proclamations of something so 
patently, as you say, absurd.  When in the park most who come across 
an unfortunate hygienic offense simply walk around - anthologies being 
traditionally reserved for things worthy of consideration. Cataloging 
waste falls into an entirely different category. You might try 
contacting the good doctor privately. 









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in
  enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather
  than the Self but simply not making that distinction
  clear.  It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked
  them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd
  find they were in agreement.
 
 Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in 
 enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification 
 shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the 
 disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self 
 disappears. Hope this helps.
 
 Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining where he 
 is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real 
 creepy dude.


What was your favorite saying again Jim?

Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying

Well, creep on the best you can.











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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrfishey2001
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
 
  
 Howewer I find no reason to assume as  a priori true that Peter is a
 gifted psychotherapist or that this is his stategy.
 
 Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is just double talk, a
 hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity.
 
 
 
 Your cigar analogy aside, I canÕt imagine what would posses you to 
 create a complilations of past proclamations of something so 
 patently, as you say, absurd.  When in the park most who come across 
 an unfortunate hygienic offense simply walk around.

If it were crap that were just been sold as crap, I would agree and
just walk around it. 

But since attributes of developing consciousness and so-called
enlightenment are key points of discussion here, when people infuse
such with crap, It think its worthy to say Sir, don't do that. This
topic is too important to throw crap at. 

Crap in this case being weak thinking, weak interprestation of ones
experience, weak semantics, deception, slight-of-hand and absurdites 
pawned off as wisdom.

 Cataloging 
 waste falls into an entirely different category. 

The intent is to help raise the level discussion, analysis and
understanding of these important topics. I can sympathize with your
probable gasping at that claim, hearing you say, perhaps well surely
there are better ways  to try to do that.

I have tried many ways: direct serious discussion, teasing, satire,
facrce, banter.  Personally, I find most approaches have their limits,
but a multiple-front approach hits the target more often than a single
approach. 

And most are a tonic to clarify the mind, a neti-neti exercise in
separating the wheat from chaff etc. Unexamined, actually the crap
expounded here sometimes looks, mistakenly - from a distance -- like
something appealing, like chocolate perhaps. A little neti-neti
discrimination is quite useful in avoiding gastronomical disasters.


 You might try 
 contacting the good doctor privately. 

I have. Not to much producive use. After an exchange or two, he
ineveitably runs off screaming I am so insulted! I will not talk to
people who insult me! Of course the so called insults are like pieces
of rope that he for some reason sees as snakes.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in
  enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather
  than the Self but simply not making that distinction
  clear.  It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked
  them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd
  find they were in agreement.
 
 Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in 
 enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification 
 shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the 
 disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self 
 disappears. Hope this helps.
 
 Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining where he 
 is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real 
 creepy dude.


Usually people who have something to contribute towards a discussion
do so. Those that don't but feel a sense of disagreement -- often
unspecified and unarticulated -- simply attack the poster. I think its
called an ad hominem logical fallacy. Its akin to saying I give up, I
have nothing intelligent to say or to contribute. But I feel compelled
to lash out at this thing that makes me uncomfortable.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote: 
 Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in 
 enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification 
 shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the 
 disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self 
 disappears. Hope this helps.

And thats a reasonable perspective.

My only point is that that is NOT Peter's oft repeated view. He has
forcefully claimed many times that in enlightenement there is NO ego,
NO individuality, absolutely NONE, ZIP. Game OVER. His statements
leave no room for your position, indentification changes but the ego
is still there, just not identified with. He is clear that if there
is a sense of ego or individuality, then that 'experience' is NOT
enlightenment. 

Thus my point: Two (aned more) people self-claim enlightenment, define
it in different way, and report a different 'experience'. If you don't
see whats wrong with this picture, your type of enlightenment, or
innate rational skills, are of a very weak form.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in
 enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification
 shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the
 disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self
 disappears. Hope this helps.

And thats a reasonable perspective.

My only point is that that is NOT Peter's oft repeated view. He has
forcefully claimed many times that in enlightenement there is NO ego,
NO individuality, absolutely NONE, ZIP. Game OVER. His statements
leave no room for your position, indentification changes but the ego
is still there, just not identified with. He is clear that if there
is a sense of ego or individuality, then that 'experience' is NOT
enlightenment.

Thus my point: Two (and more) people self-claim enlightenment, define
it in different way, and report a different 'experience' that
characterizews their enlightenment. 

If one doesn't see whats wrong with this picture, then their
self-defined, self-proclaimed type of enlightenment, or innate
rational skills, are of a very weak form.












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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
snip
  That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened
  can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted.
 
 Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there
 is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes 
 to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no 
 ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be 
 diminished?

No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self.

Some supposedly enlightened people *do* use
circumlocutions like This body is cold rather
than I am cold, but such expressions have 
always struck me as a bit pretentious.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies



--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
 snip
   That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened
   can't speak about what the self is feeling,
 e.g., insulted.
  
  Not in this case. One could say the body is
 cold. Because there
  is a body, but one does not identify with it. But
 an insult referes 
  to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is
 no 
  ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense
 of ego be 
  diminished?
 
 No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self.
 
 Some supposedly enlightened people *do* use
 circumlocutions like This body is cold rather
 than I am cold, but such expressions have 
 always struck me as a bit pretentious.

Yes, it does sound a bit odd, but the problem is that
there is no subjective self or me that any word
points to. So you can say, I'm cold, but there is no
I, there's just cold.



 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

Hey, I just hopped on after watching the Giants
getting there asses handed to them.Guess I'll have
to see what this is all about.

--- mrfishey2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
 
  
 Howewer I find no reason to assume as  a priori
 true that Peter is a
 gifted psychotherapist or that this is his stategy.
 
 Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is
 just double talk, a
 hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity.
 
 
 
 Your cigar analogy aside, I canÕt imagine what would
 posses you to 
 create a complilations of past proclamations of
 something so 
 patently, as you say, absurd.  When in the park most
 who come across 
 an unfortunate hygienic offense simply walk around -
 anthologies being 
 traditionally reserved for things worthy of
 consideration. Cataloging 
 waste falls into an entirely different category. You
 might try 
 contacting the good doctor privately. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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 ~-- 
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 poor with hope and healing

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
 snip
   That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened
   can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted.
  
  Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there
  is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes 
  to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no 
  ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be 
  diminished?
 
 No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self.

I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, emphatically NO
EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the
universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for ALL --
as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a
NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment? It is a paradox Peter refuses to
explain even though he has been asked to do so a number of times.

One hypothesis, the only one presented so far -- and thus the
standard -- the bogey to disprove - is that Peter indeed has a
space of relative, in-the-world, ego and individuality that feels
diminished at times by percieved insults, but that Peter is blind to
this ego area within himself. Like problems of the eye trying to see
itself. 

And the identification of this ego area is particularly difficult
for Peter -- so the hypothesis claims -- because it would mean that by
HIS own clearly stated definition of enlightenement -- the SOLE
criteria of which is NO-EGO -- that Peter is not enlightened. And, per
the hypothesis, this would be a huge blow to the existing, yet hidden
from  (Peter's) view, ego. Thus the hidden ego fights voraciously to
protect its claim to enlightenment, its core attainment, by denying
its own existance. Yet it gets flustered and angry when confronted
with clear evidence of its own existence: the experience of feeling
insulted - that is the ego feels diminished. (Which could not occur if
the ego did not exist, as Peter claims). 

I say percieved insults, because of the continuing flow of personal
cognitive errors that Peter contines to lay out for us.  (For example,
a number of times he will say, This post said xyz. When indeed an
examination ofthe post says no such thing.) Its a rope and snake
thing. For some reason Peter often sees a snarling snake (insults)
when indeed all that is there is a rope on the floor.

One would expect that as vasana knots loosen, or dissolve, such
cognitve errors should decline. Thus another interesting contradiction
in Peter's case.

 

 
 Some supposedly enlightened people *do* use
 circumlocutions like This body is cold rather
 than I am cold, but such expressions have 
 always struck me as a bit pretentious.


Amma goes as far as speaking in the 3rd person, Mother did this and
Mother said that








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[FairfieldLife] Watering down advaita

Reviewing the TastelessThe Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite, Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24 9AU, UK, 288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95.There can be no doubt that Dennis Waite's 'The Book Of One' is a worthy introduction to the Ancient Teaching of Advaita. In a clear and erudite manner he summarises the main points of this Great Philosophy and Spiritual Teaching. The book is in Sections with subsidiary chapters elucidating the chief principles. The Main Section Titles are as follows: The Unreal, The Spiritual Path, and the Real. The subsidiary 18 chapters within these Sections cover, amongst others, such topics as What I Am Not, the Nature of Man, What We Think We Can Know, Meditation, Appearance and Reality, Consciousness, the Nature of Self, Realisation, and the Direct Path, etc. Dennis Waite is a respected member of the Ramana Foundation UK, and there are many useful references to the Maharshi's Teachings in the text. He has studied the Subject for over fifteen years and has a working knowledge of Sanskrit. The book is definitely to be recommended for those who need a succinct overview to the whole Teaching in one medium size volume. It is easy to read and surveys the philosophy competently in an even handed way. This part of the book can well be regarded as a sound and valuable introduction to the whole field.There is however a long Appendix of 24 pages packed with information on current Western Advaita Organisations, International Internet Sites, and a Reading List. This part of the book raises an interesting and perplexing question of what exactly is happening to the hallowed and revered Teaching of Advaita in the Western World?Many firm devotees of Sri Ramana Maharshi now rightly term this western phenomenon as 'Neo-Advaita'. The term is carefully selected because 'neo' means 'a new or revived form'. And this new form is not the Classical Advaita which we understand to have been taught by both of the Great Self Realised Sages, Adi Shankara and Ramana Maharshi. It can even be termed 'pseudo' because, by presenting the teaching in a highly attenuated form, it might be described as purporting to be Advaita, but not in effect actually being so, in the fullest sense of the word. In this watering down of the essential truths in a palatable style made acceptable and attractive to the contemporary western mind, their teaching is misleading .Let us examine this thesis in more detail. There are a great many so-called Advaita or Non-Dual Teachers both in Europe, America and Australasia. Dennis Waite lists numerous organisations, Internet sites, and modern books, many of which fall under this category. New teachers calling themselves 'Awakened' appear frequently. One or another. They are often long standing ex-students of the late Rajneesh, or people who visited Lucknow with H.W.L. Poonja.Obviously styles, personalities, emphases, delineations, and content vary considerably. But there are enough common threads to identify this tendency as 'Neo-Advaita'. First of all the teaching is mainly presented by question and answer at meetings called 'Satsangs'. The teacher invites questions, and then answers them in his own particular way. There is no overview of the basic Advaita principles. So those who attend are left with no full understanding of the complete bases on which the Teaching stands. One is dependent on what is said there and then, after many visits, which have to be paid for, one may appreciate what the self-appointed teacher is attempting to 'put over'. The books they have published are in the main just edited transcripts of these 'satsangs', and are also incomplete.There is no doubt that many of these men and women are in most cases good looking, talented, gifted communicators. They often have a certain charisma and an intelligent quick wittedness. They can handle concepts from an intellectual standpoint with dexterity and are often entertaining in an idiosyncratic way. Many seekers develop a psychological dependency on one favourite teacher, others move from one to another hoping to pick up some truth which will help them in their quest. But these satsangs tend to be fragmented, so many teachers and meetings need to be visited and this can lead to confusion. There is generally a lack of experiential understanding of the Real Self and its Power as deep silence, unconditional love etc.. When the vasanas are strong and rajassic, even such rare glimpses may not happen at all.Stated briefly, what has happened is that an advanced teaching pointer, normally given to the Sadhak by a fully Self Realised Guru, Jivan Mukta or Jnani has been taken over as the preliminary step and is now given 'piecemeal' to any new adept. The suggestion that no further effort is necessary is only stated when the Sadhak has reached the point where effort is no longer possible. The mark of the true Guru is that peace, Love and Silence are palpably felt in his presence.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-08 Thread Sal Sunshine


 
 > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff
 > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 > wrote:
 > 
 > 
 >  
 > Howewer I find no reason to assume as  a priori
 > true that Peter is a
 > gifted psychotherapist or that this is his stategy.
 > 
 > Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is
 > just double talk, a
 > hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity.


And a latte is just a latte--case closed.

Sal

[FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Reviewing the Tasteless
 The Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite,  
 Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24 9AU, UK,  
 288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95.


No Jnani ever claims to be Enlightened. It remains for others to
recognise his qualities. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Reviewing the Tasteless
 The Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite,  
 Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24 9AU, UK,  
 288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95.


That the vasanas have been accumulated and consolidated in previous
'life dreams' is not examined, and if raised, the teachings about
'samsara' , 'maya' , jiva, karma and re-birth are often considered too
metaphysical to explain or grasp .They are invariably dismissed as old
superstitions. 








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[FairfieldLife] A fire to warm your soul, page 2

2006-01-08 Thread summerwind_2005

The wind is gentle as it moves through the clearing next to the 
large creek. As the spiritual body of the young Indian woman sits 
next to the fire, the dark night surrounds her. She speaks to those 
who sit near her

 

I am different than most people. There are many spirits with me and 
they come and go like the wind. They speak to me in many different 
ways. With the help of good spirits I have learned much about 
myself. Who I am and the road I must walk upon in my life. My road 
is a dry creek bed. I walk upon and around many rocks.


I believe that I have the spirit of a young Indian woman hidden 
inside a white woman's body. I believe that our spirits can be 
different than our bodies. When I die my white woman's body will 
turn to dust and I will have the spiritual body of a young Indian 
woman.


 

Listen to my words and they will show you a glimpse of my spirit.


 

As I lay upon a hill covered with soft grass,

Watching above,

As the branches of trees sway in the wind,

Seeing a hawk flying in the blue sky,

Hearing the cries of wolves in the distance,

Wondering if I shall ever see a wolf,

Wondering if a wolf will ever see me,

Wishing I could stay upon this hill forever,

As the wind surrounds me and the sun warms me,

 

 

I close my eyes with tears upon my face

As I open my eyes this hill is gone,

Gone are the trees, the hawk, the cries of wolves,

I am alone in a world where concrete covers Grandmother Earth,

Where buildings reach into the skies instead of trees,

The cries that echo in the wind are not from wolves,

They are the cries of my soul

 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita



On Jan 8, 2006, at 4:34 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Reviewing the Tasteless The Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite,   Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24 9AU, UK,   288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95.   No Jnani ever claims to be Enlightened. It remains for others to recognise his qualities.  That's the amazing thing, no claim is required. These are spontaneous qualities.Brings us back to the old saying 'those who know, don't talk--those who talk, don't know [Brahma-vidya].'





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-08 Thread jim_flanegin

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
  snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in
   enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather
   than the Self but simply not making that distinction
   clear.  It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked
   them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd
   find they were in agreement.
  
  Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in 
  enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the 
identification 
  shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the 
  disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self 
  disappears. Hope this helps.
  
  Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining 
where he 
  is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real 
  creepy dude.
 
 
 What was your favorite saying again Jim?
 
 Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying

Nice saying?...and you wrote recently:

This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. 
The
four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its
not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its 
double
speak pusshing its own limits.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita

On Jan 8, 2006, at 4:36 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reviewing the Tasteless The Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite, Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24 9AU, UK, 288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95. That the vasanas have been accumulated and consolidated in previous 'life dreams' is not examined, and if raised, the teachings about 'samsara' , 'maya' , jiva, karma and re-birth are often considered too metaphysical to explain or grasp .They are invariably dismissed as old superstitions. In many satsangs, bringing up such topics is considered intellectualization or worse: dualistic. Whatever the case, it's not common for there to be some *undertone* of subtle condescension when such items are mentioned. What this often means is someones ego has been stepped on...often one of the 'enlightened ones'.It's also not uncommon IME for an 'enlightened one' to attempt profundity and an utterly and plainly incorrect View (about reality). I remember one such gathering where the 'enlightened one' waxed neoadvaitic on how the state of Brahman / Unity consciousness could be understood by the Two Truths.The crowd bought it.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita


On Jan 8, 2006, at 5:11 PM, Vaj wrote:

 it's not common

oops, it's not UNCOMMON



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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
   snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in
enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather
than the Self but simply not making that distinction
clear.  It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked
them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd
find they were in agreement.
   
   Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in 
   enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the 
 identification 
   shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the 
   disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self 
   disappears. Hope this helps.
   
   Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining 
 where he 
   is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real 
   creepy dude.
  
  
  What was your favorite saying again Jim?
  
  Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying
 
 Nice saying?...and you wrote recently:
 
 This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. 
 The
 four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its
 not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its 
 double
 speak pusshing its own limits.


Yes. And?

The four statements are a conradiction.

They are either absurd or insane.


What argument do you have with this?

Do you find the four statments consistent?









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 8, 2006, at 4:36 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Reviewing the Tasteless
  The Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite,
  Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24 9AU, UK,
  288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95.
 
 
  That the vasanas have been accumulated and consolidated in previous
  'life dreams' is not examined, and if raised, the teachings about
  'samsara' , 'maya' , jiva, karma and re-birth are often considered too
  metaphysical to explain or grasp .They are invariably dismissed as old
  superstitions.


It reminded me of several recent posts. 


 
 In many satsangs, bringing up such topics is considered  
 intellectualization or worse: dualistic. Whatever the case, it's not  
 common for there to be some *undertone* of subtle condescension when  
 such items are mentioned. What this often means is someones ego has  
 been stepped on...often one of the 'enlightened ones'.
 
 It's also not uncommon IME for an 'enlightened one' to attempt  
 profundity and an utterly and plainly incorrect View (about reality).  
 I remember one such gathering where the 'enlightened one' waxed  
 neoadvaitic on how the state of Brahman / Unity consciousness could  
 be understood by the Two Truths.
 
 The crowd bought it.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
  snip
That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened
can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted.
   
   Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because 
there
   is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult 
referes 
   to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no 
   ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be 
   diminished?
  
  No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self.
 
 I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, emphatically NO
 EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the
 universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for ALL --
 as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a
 NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment?

Trying again: No ego in the Absolute--absolutely no ego;
the ego is in the self.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
   snip
 That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened
 can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted.

Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because 
 there
is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult 
 referes 
to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no 
ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be 
diminished?
   
   No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self.
  
  I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, emphatically NO
  EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the
  universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for ALL --
  as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a
  NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment?
 
 Trying again: No ego in the Absolute--absolutely no ego;
 the ego is in the self.

I guess you are playing with my use of the word absolutely -- and
making a joke, not a point clarification.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
snip
  That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened
  can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., 
insulted.
 
 Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because 
  there
 is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult 
  referes 
 to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no 
 ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be 
 diminished?

No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self.
   
   I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, 
emphatically NO
   EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the
   universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for 
ALL --
   as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a
   NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment?
  
  Trying again: No ego in the Absolute--absolutely no ego;
  the ego is in the self.
 
 I guess you are playing with my use of the word absolutely -- and
 making a joke, not a point clarification.

Think about it a bit more.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
   
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
 snip
   That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened
   can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., 
 insulted.
  
  Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because 
   there
  is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult 
   referes 
  to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no 
  ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be 
  diminished?
 
 No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self.

I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, 
 emphatically NO
EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the
universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for 
 ALL --
as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a
NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment?
   
   Trying again: No ego in the Absolute--absolutely no ego;
   the ego is in the self.
  
  I guess you are playing with my use of the word absolutely -- and
  making a joke, not a point clarification.
 
 Think about it a bit more.

And Peter is claiming that there is no self, no ego, no ego in the
self, no self in the ego, no nothing there, zippo, game over, lights
out. So I am suggesting that Peter is wrapped up in a fallacy -- a
misView -- an incorrect interpretation of his experience, a cogitive
error.  This is because if an insult is a sense of diminishment of the
ego, and Peter feels insulted, then ergo -- he has ego space. And thus
by his own strict and sole-criteria definition of of enlightnement, he
is not enlightened.

Yet I am sure I am still missing your shining, but to me, obscure koan. :)








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita



On Jan 8, 2006, at 5:31 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   On Jan 8, 2006, at 4:36 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Reviewing the Tasteless The Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite, Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24 9AU, UK, 288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95.   That the vasanas have been accumulated and consolidated in previous 'life dreams' is not examined, and if raised, the teachings about 'samsara' , 'maya' , jiva, karma and re-birth are often considered too metaphysical to explain or grasp .They are invariably dismissed as old superstitions.   It reminded me of several recent posts.  The entire article was laced with themes common here.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 8, 2006, at 5:31 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Jan 8, 2006, at 4:36 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Reviewing the Tasteless
  The Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite,
  Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24  
  9AU, UK,
  288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95.
 
 
  That the vasanas have been accumulated and consolidated in previous
  'life dreams' is not examined, and if raised, the teachings about
  'samsara' , 'maya' , jiva, karma and re-birth are often  
  considered too
  metaphysical to explain or grasp .They are invariably dismissed  
  as old
  superstitions.
 
 
  It reminded me of several recent posts.
 
 The entire article was laced with themes common here.


Yes.

There is generally a lack of experiential understanding of the Real
Self and its Power as deep silence, unconditional love etc..

Otherwise there is a permanent occlusion, the Granthi Knot,
permanently screening off the tremendous power of the Real Self, which
is the Absolute Unborn Deathless Consciousness, God, Unconditional
Love, Dynamic Silence, and Oneness. Instead the Neo-Advaitin pupil
merely basks in his or her Reflected Consciousness, designated as 'all
there is, is perfect, whatever manifests'.


To summarise, the main Neo Advaitin fallacy ignores the fact that
there is an occlusion or veiling formed by the vasanas, samskaras,
bodily sheaths and vrittis, and there is a Granthi Knot forming an
identification between Self and mind which has to be severed. If this
were not the case then the whole of humanity would be living from
Absolute Consciousness. As it is humanity still lives from Reflected
Consciousness, including the Neo Advaitin Teacher with his or her
active vasanas, still identified with the mind.

Pupils gravitate to the teacher with this kind of agenda which
confirms what he or she wants to believe, that no effort is needed.
The result is that the Teacher, still living from the ordinary mind,
with vasanas active, can never go back on the promise that he is
'awakened' and therefore forfeit the right to teach. That the vasanas
have been accumulated and consolidated in previous 'life dreams' is
not examined, and if raised, the teachings about 'samsara' , 'maya' ,
jiva, karma and re-birth are often considered too metaphysical to
explain or grasp .They are invariably dismissed as old superstitions.










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita

The suggestion by the Neo-Advaitins that effort builds up the Ego
giving it a sense of pride in its ability to meditate, etc. is only
true in number of eccentric cases.

Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and
rooting out,  the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which
doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons. 

The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in
itself. I think over time, other vasanas are roasted, as ones desire
for enlightnement becomes a sole focus. Other vasansas become
subordinated or fused up into the enlightenemnt seeking desire. 

Giving up, and rooting out, the search, path and desire for
enlightenment can be powerful, and delightful. 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-08 Thread shanti2218411

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Yes, it does sound a bit odd, but the problem is that
 there is no subjective self or me that any word
 points to. So you can say, I'm cold, but there is no
 I, there's just cold.
 
 I have not been posting lately but thoughts I put my two cents
into this discussion.IMHO the concept of individuality primarily
refers to the physical body and the social entity that is expressed
via that body(eg few people on FFL would mistake Peter S. for Tom
P:)).Hopefully we can all agree that there exists a physical body and
social entity called Peter Sutphen.However the latter individual no
longer has any experience of a personal self nor is there any sense of
someone having a body,a mind etc.The individual known as Peter
Sutphen(and in particular the brain) does have a specific learning
history and also relatively stable behavioral and personality
characteristics eg heapparently follows professional football.It is
this psycho-social entity that participates in this discussion group
and which sometimes responses with anger to the posts of others. 
 Infact it is my experience and belief that the absence of a personal
self and related subjective changes(inner silence/distinction between
being and action)frequently have a minimal impact on the behavior  of 
  the physical and social individual.IOW being enlightened in this
sense is unlikely to make you a better golfer or for that matter a
better person.I do disagree with the position that the term
enlightenment should or can be limited to the state described above.Kevin
  
  
  
  
  
  
 
  
   
  
  
  
  
 
 
 
   
 __ 
 Yahoo! DSL  Something to write home about. 
 Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
 dsl.yahoo.com








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coshlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --You could be a Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist, without knowing it.


Are you referring to me (a_non_moose_ff)?

  This 
 is a desire oriented form of Buddhism, 180deg. in contrast to most 
 traditional sects of Buddhism which have a stern condemnation of 
 attempting to fulfill selfish desires.
   In Nichiren's Buddhism, the energy latent in all people (ALL 
 physically embodied people) can be used as fuel for the attainment 
 (since this is a progressive path) of Enlightenment, by attaching 
 one's desire to the particular mantra (Nam Myoho Renge Kyo). 

I think I have a (missed)-connection to this group. The summer after
my 6-months TTC, I was in LA, walking down Santa Monica Ave., still a
bit spacey from all the rounding, when this volkswagon with two
beautiful girls -- college age -- roars up, stops just in front of me,
and both pop out and they gush vivaciously,  want to fulfill all your
desires? 

I sort of smiled - mumbbled, well, um and they started talking
about chanting what I think it was Nam Myoho Renge Kyo. 

They said, We are going to a meeting, come with us. 

Well, being a total stick-up my ass new initiator, I said, um, well I
practice TM.. They said, cool, come with us. 

After a bit of discussion, I quite stupidly declined (wtf was I
thinking!). Something about purity of the teaching and not being seen
at other teachers courses blathering through my mind.  


 Eventually, the chanting of the mantra coupled with the intent to 
 fulfill desires results in one or more alternative outcomes:, such 
 as...
 1. The desire is Adharmic, in which case it will eventually self-
 destruct.
 2. The desire will be transformed into a different desire.
 3. The desire may be fulfilled or not fulfilled,; but regardless of 
 many possible outcomes, the result, given time is:

Some other methods seem to use this. Danhur Ved?


  HENDOKU IYAKU, which means changing poison into medicine.  The 
 poison exists as the pain of having not fulfilled one's desire, or 
 the suffering of some known or unknown cause.
  In due course of one's attempt to avoid pain and embrace pleasure, 
 the idea is to transform one's desires from base heavy metals (lead, 
 mercury), into pure gold and the elixir of Soma.


   I chanted Nam Myoho Renge Knyo for 20 years with great benefit

What specifically?

 but 
 now I chant the first verse of the Surangama Sutra. 

Chant only, or offerings too?

(The Surangama 
 Sutra text is shown on the website Vaj menationed - text written by 
 Hsuan Hua.  He was my first Buddhist Guru during the 70's. (ate lunch 
 with him on a number of occasions...very humble fellow.  To eat lunch 
 with MMY I'd have to fork over a mil. at least).
 PS: Nichiren Buddhists spend little time speculating on the nature of 
 Enlightenment, but spend more time attempting to fulfill concrete 
 desires right on our dinner plate. These are the stepping stones to 
 Enlightenment, which will take care of itself in the due course of 
 time,
 PS 2(along with TM of course).  I doubt that Vaj's Guru Norbu 
 Rinpoche has any individual technique which can compare with the 
 effectiveness of TM. 

and VAj says? 

I'll probably get an e mail on that. He's quick 
 to criticize TM, but whenever I even mention Norbu Rinpoche vaj 
 sends me an e mail.  Fine...I like to hear from fellow Buddhists.
 FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   
   On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
   
My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and 
 structure of
conditionings and experiences that make I appear to be the 
 body or
mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false 
 sense of I
dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just 
 not a
tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still 
 there.
Just not hung up in oneself as before, no one or thing to get
insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in losing it -- though
certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience 
 of
social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, 
 playful,
very flexibible, etc.
   
And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may 
 be human
liver and fava bean oriented. Its my experience that mind / 
 intellect
continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and 
 patterns,
just as when vasannas were tighter.  But now faster, with 
 everything
flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully.
   
And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed 
 as jiva
mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be 
 all
there is.
   
   Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul  
   doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to 
 do  
   that...man will those vasanas be

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita


On Jan 8, 2006, at 6:28 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On Jan 8, 2006, at 5:31 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 On Jan 8, 2006, at 4:36 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Reviewing the Tasteless
 The Book Of One, The Spiritual Path of Advaita by Dennis Waite,
 Published by O Books, 46 West Street, Alresford, Hants, SO24
 9AU, UK,
 288 pages, paper back, £9.99 or $17.95.


 That the vasanas have been accumulated and consolidated in  
 previous
 'life dreams' is not examined, and if raised, the teachings about
 'samsara' , 'maya' , jiva, karma and re-birth are often
 considered too
 metaphysical to explain or grasp .They are invariably dismissed
 as old
 superstitions.


 It reminded me of several recent posts.

 The entire article was laced with themes common here.


 Yes.

 There is generally a lack of experiential understanding of the Real
 Self and its Power as deep silence, unconditional love etc..

 Otherwise there is a permanent occlusion, the Granthi Knot,
 permanently screening off the tremendous power of the Real Self, which
 is the Absolute Unborn Deathless Consciousness, God, Unconditional
 Love, Dynamic Silence, and Oneness. Instead the Neo-Advaitin pupil
 merely basks in his or her Reflected Consciousness, designated as 'all
 there is, is perfect, whatever manifests'.


 To summarise, the main Neo Advaitin fallacy ignores the fact that
 there is an occlusion or veiling formed by the vasanas, samskaras,
 bodily sheaths and vrittis, and there is a Granthi Knot forming an
 identification between Self and mind which has to be severed. If this
 were not the case then the whole of humanity would be living from
 Absolute Consciousness. As it is humanity still lives from Reflected
 Consciousness, including the Neo Advaitin Teacher with his or her
 active vasanas, still identified with the mind.

 Pupils gravitate to the teacher with this kind of agenda which
 confirms what he or she wants to believe, that no effort is needed.
 The result is that the Teacher, still living from the ordinary mind,
 with vasanas active, can never go back on the promise that he is
 'awakened' and therefore forfeit the right to teach. That the vasanas
 have been accumulated and consolidated in previous 'life dreams' is
 not examined, and if raised, the teachings about 'samsara' , 'maya' ,
 jiva, karma and re-birth are often considered too metaphysical to
 explain or grasp .They are invariably dismissed as old superstitions.


I could see these and others as making a good start for a Neo-Advaita  
and Pseudo-Advaita FAQ.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita



On Jan 8, 2006, at 6:29 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:"The suggestion by the Neo-Advaitins that effort builds up the Ego giving it a sense of pride in its ability to meditate, etc. is only true in number of eccentric cases."  Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and rooting out,  the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons.   The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in itself. Indeed. That was one of the important elements in a post put here from Dilgo Khyentse. The style of meditation changes as one approaches non-dual practices. "Sitting down to meditate" and all the drama associated with formal sessions of practice dissolve and become part of our larger "life". They are no longer separate. Ultimately you have to be able to take the state of "one taste" into moving, eating, shitting AND sitting. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 8, 2006, at 6:29 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
 
  The suggestion by the Neo-Advaitins that effort builds up the Ego
  giving it a sense of pride in its ability to meditate, etc. is only
  true in number of eccentric cases.
 
  Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and
  rooting out,  the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which
  doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons.
 
  The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in
  itself.
 
 Indeed. That was one of the important elements in a post put here  
 from Dilgo Khyentse.

I missed that. I will go back and read it.

Thanks.

 The style of meditation changes as one  
 approaches non-dual practices. Sitting down to meditate and all the  
 drama associated with formal sessions of practice dissolve and become  
 part of our larger life. They are no longer separate. Ultimately  
 you have to be able to take the state of one taste into moving,  
 eating, shitting AND sitting.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Watering down advaita



On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:08 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:I missed that. I will go back and read it.  Thanks. It was on carrying the View."When performing the meditation practice one should develop thefeeling of opening oneself completely to the whole universe withabsolute simplicity and nakedness of mind, ridding oneself of allprotecting barriers. Don’t mentally split into two when meditating,one part of the mind watching the other like a cat watching a mouse."Twice a day? LOL.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 1/7/06 11:30:26 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 It is  obvious that Gurudev lived in greater physical comfort as 
 Shankaracharya  than he did as a lone Sanyasin wandering around. It 
is 
 also obvious that  *somehow* money flowed into the math at 
Jyotirmath. 
 Gurudev may have  refused donations in exchange for instruction, 
but I 
 doubt if he refused  generic donations for the upkeep of the Math. 
 Unless people are implying  that he manifest money out of thin air? 
 This would be counterfeiting, and  illegal, so regardless of any 
 ability to do so on Gurudev's part, I doubt  if he did this, don't 
you?
 
 
 
 
 How many of you have actually seen Jyotir Math? It's not that  big 
a deal.


Never said it was, but it has four walls and a roof, does it not?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Triguna

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 1/7/06 3:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Is Triguna still alive and practicing?If so, does anybody have his 
address in
  Delhi? I was there in 95 or 96 but can't remember the address . A 
friend is
  going to Delhi soon and would like to see him.  Thanks.
  
 Vaid Devendra Triguna, President Ayurvedic Congress 143, Sarai Kale 
Khan,
 East Nizamuddin, Opp. Railway Crossing, New Delhi
 
 As far as I know, he¹s still practicing.


That's Brihaspati Dev Triguna's son. B.D. Triguna's picture is on the 
MAK label.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
 
  Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean something good is 
happening,
  then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in 
specific
  ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it 
to
  label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as
  traditional enlightenment. Its a bit of a charlatan's game is 
some
  caes, IMO.
 
 Bottom line: the words for different states of enlightenment 
just  
 don't exist in English. That's why I always insist my 
enlightenment  
 has the 100% Vedic tag :-)...no seriously...in their correct 
sense,  
 the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of 
consciousness  
 have a precise meaning. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot  
 out the same description, everyone's different.
 
 IME the vast majority of people claiming enlightenment, in 
Vedantic  
 terms, have had a taste of the Self. Self-recognition. Grokked 
the  
 View.
 
 It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in 
the  
 View or are established in it. If we can rest in the View for long  
 enough, signs manifest. It's precisely because these signs aren't  
 mentioned, it's natural to wonder.


DO yuo know what grok means?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:17 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean "something good is happening", then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional "enlightenment". Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different "states" of enlightenment just don't exist in English. That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-)...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different. IME the vast majority of people claiming "enlightenment", in Vedantic terms, have had a taste of the Self. "Self-recognition". Grokked the View. It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder. DO yuo know what "grok" means? Just what I got from Heinlein and how it's used in common use now.Read Stranger in a Strange Land, then you'll get it. Well, maybe.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  How many of you have actually seen Jyotir Math? It's not that  
  big a deal.
 
 They've seen it in their minds, as it was described
 to them by other people who made it seem like a big
 deal. The description has become Truth for them;
 anything that deviates from this is falsehood.


Living in more physical comfort by staying at Jyotirmath than by being 
a lone sanyasin walking around doesn't really say THAT much, IMHO. I 
guess you read gilt-gold, silks and marble fountains into what I said, 
but I certainly don't see how.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 
 
 --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   
   
   --- markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   

It's good that tmo scientists try to get
  published,
but the spirit of
the whole effort seems to fall more under PR
  than
science - and until
at least one independent scientist is impressed
enough by the
maharishi effect research to begin the long
  process
of replication,
then it's still an proven theory.
   
   More a very unusual hypothesis with some slight
   empirical support. Not enough to build a theory on
   becaue there is so much empirical evidence which
   completely contradicts the M.A. theory as it is
  now
   constructed.
   
   
  
  Which emperical evidence contradicts the ME theory?
 
 The prima facie fact that large numbers of meditators
 in Fairfield, Iowa have not reduced the crime rate
 there. Post hoc explanations/metaphors such as the
 washing machine effect indicate that the ME theory
 has a long way to go in its development as a formal
 theory. I'm not dismissing the ME, but it is far from
 a complete theory. Right now it is a hypothesis, not a
 theory.

The ME theory is a large numbers theory. The crime rate of Fairfield 
could be skewed by having a single pickpocket living among the 
sidhas. For that matter, the traffic accident rate during the Taste 
of Utopia course could go up because the town's adult population more 
than doubled (tripled) during that time. To accurately measure the 
predicted claims of the ME, you would need a much larger statistical 
sample population for them to effect than Fairfield, IA, like 
Washington, DC.


That's not to claim that there might not be SOME measurable positive 
effect, only that you can't really claim the ME to be supported or 
non-supported, based on Fairfield statistics (of course, the TMO does 
exactly that when it suits them, but that's the PR biz for you).







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 
 
 --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:
  
   
   
   --- markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   

It's good that tmo scientists try to get
  published,
but the spirit of
the whole effort seems to fall more under PR
  than
science - and until
at least one independent scientist is impressed
enough by the
maharishi effect research to begin the long
  process
of replication,
then it's still an proven theory.
   
   More a very unusual hypothesis with some slight
   empirical support. Not enough to build a theory on
   becaue there is so much empirical evidence which
   completely contradicts the M.A. theory as it is
  now
   constructed.
   
   
  
  Which emperical evidence contradicts the ME theory?
 
 The prima facie fact that large numbers of meditators
 in Fairfield, Iowa have not reduced the crime rate
 there. Post hoc explanations/metaphors such as the
 washing machine effect indicate that the ME theory
 has a long way to go in its development as a formal
 theory. I'm not dismissing the ME, but it is far from
 a complete theory. Right now it is a hypothesis, not a
 theory.

The ME theory is a large numbers theory. The crime rate of Fairfield 
could be skewed by having a single pickpocket living among the 
sidhas. For that matter, the traffic accident rate during the Taste 
of Utopia course could go up because the town's adult population more 
than doubled (tripled) during that time. To accurately measure the 
predicted claims of the ME, you would need a much larger statistical 
sample population for them to effect than Fairfield, IA, like 
Washington, DC.


That's not to claim that there might not be SOME measurable positive 
effect, only that you can't really claim the ME to be supported or 
non-supported, based on Fairfield statistics (of course, the TMO does 
exactly that when it suits them, but that's the PR biz for you).






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[FairfieldLife] MMY Big Projects Root Out Vassanas

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and
 rooting out,  the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which
 doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons. 
 
 The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in
 itself. I think over time, other vasanas are roasted, as ones desire
 for enlightnement becomes a sole focus. Other vasansas become
 subordinated or fused up into the enlightenemnt seeking desire. 
 

Use of this or parallel dynamics is what MMY does, IMV, which many
attribute to bizzare and strange personal and organizational behavior.
I think there is great rhyme and reson to it.

MMY creates grand projects that he strongly motivates his closer
followers to feverently work towards and focus on, day and night,
creating a deep desire in them to realize the project.  100% focus is
given. All other concerns and desires, even marriage, fall by the
wayside. The vasanas for all such desires thus weaken and atrophy. The
only strong vasana is the current project. Then MMY pulls the rug out
from under the followers on that project and starts a new one. 

Same process is repeated. All focus is give to the new project. All
other desires and concerns become secondary or fall to very low on
ones list. The corresponding vasanas weaken and atropy. Then the rug
again is ripped out from under followers for the current BIG project. 

Repeated a number of times, all vasanas, are weakened, rooted out,
atrophied and/or dissolved. 

What the project is doesn't matter. Its not the fruit of the action
that paramount. Its the masters reaction. And the process of intense
focus on one BIG thing. Its all a process to root out vasannas.










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 
  
  
  --- sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   wrote:
   


--- markmeredith2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 
 It's good that tmo scientists try to get
   published,
 but the spirit of
 the whole effort seems to fall more under PR
   than
 science - and until
 at least one independent scientist is impressed
 enough by the
 maharishi effect research to begin the long
   process
 of replication,
 then it's still an proven theory.

More a very unusual hypothesis with some slight
empirical support. Not enough to build a theory on
becaue there is so much empirical evidence which
completely contradicts the M.A. theory as it is
   now
constructed.


   
   Which emperical evidence contradicts the ME theory?
  
  The prima facie fact that large numbers of meditators
  in Fairfield, Iowa have not reduced the crime rate
  there. Post hoc explanations/metaphors such as the
  washing machine effect indicate that the ME theory
  has a long way to go in its development as a formal
  theory. I'm not dismissing the ME, but it is far from
  a complete theory. Right now it is a hypothesis, not a
  theory.
 
 The ME theory is a large numbers theory. The crime rate of Fairfield 
 could be skewed by having a single pickpocket living among the 
 sidhas. For that matter, the traffic accident rate during the Taste 
 of Utopia course could go up because the town's adult population more 
 than doubled (tripled) during that time. To accurately measure the 
 predicted claims of the ME, you would need a much larger statistical 
 sample population for them to effect than Fairfield, IA, like 
 Washington, DC.
 
 
 That's not to claim that there might not be SOME measurable positive 
 effect, only that you can't really claim the ME to be supported or 
 non-supported, based on Fairfield statistics (of course, the TMO does 
 exactly that when it suits them, but that's the PR biz for you).


Nor can the ME be shown tobe conclusive by just one DC size study. To
show real causality, not mere correlation, or random effects, the
study would need to be done in a number of differnt types of cities,
at different times of the year, over different lengths of time
periods, with different YFs/ population rations, etc. etc. With such
varieddatea, then good statistical analysis can drill deep and see if
the effect is real.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] MMY Big Projects Root Out Vassanas

On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:43 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and rooting out, the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons. The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in itself. I think over time, other vasanas are roasted, as ones desire for enlightnement becomes a sole focus. Other vasansas become subordinated or fused up into the enlightenemnt seeking desire. Use of this or parallel dynamics is what MMY does, IMV, which many attribute to bizzare and strange personal and organizational behavior. I think there is great rhyme and reson to it. MMY creates grand projects that he strongly motivates his closer followers to feverently work towards and focus on, day and night, creating a deep desire in them to realize the project. 100% focus is given. All other concerns and desires, even marriage, fall by the wayside. The vasanas for all such desires thus weaken and atrophy. The only strong vasana is the current project. Then MMY pulls the rug out from under the followers on that project and starts a new one. Same process is repeated. All focus is give to the new project. All other desires and concerns become secondary or fall to very low on ones list. The corresponding vasanas weaken and atropy. Then the rug again is ripped out from under followers for the current BIG project. Repeated a number of times, all vasanas, are weakened, rooted out, atrophied and/or dissolved. What the project is doesn't matter. Its not the fruit of the action that paramount. Its the masters reaction. And the process of intense focus on one BIG thing. Its all a process to root out vasannas. Too gross a level to root out vasanas. This will be a good rationalization for TBs though!Will no doubt create a few vasanas though...Maharishi as Zen master. A popular theme. TM is a floor cleaner AND a dessert topping...and it lowers blood pressure (never mind napping does le meme chose) and it creates world peace. How could you NOT buy it! It's the Big Mac of McMeditation.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: MMY Big Projects Root Out Vassanas

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:43 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
  Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and
  rooting out,  the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which
  doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons.
 
  The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in
  itself. I think over time, other vasanas are roasted, as ones desire
  for enlightnement becomes a sole focus. Other vasansas become
  subordinated or fused up into the enlightenemnt seeking desire.
 
 
  Use of this or parallel dynamics is what MMY does, IMV, which many
  attribute to bizzare and strange personal and organizational behavior.
  I think there is great rhyme and reson to it.
 
  MMY creates grand projects that he strongly motivates his closer
  followers to feverently work towards and focus on, day and night,
  creating a deep desire in them to realize the project.  100% focus is
  given. All other concerns and desires, even marriage, fall by the
  wayside. The vasanas for all such desires thus weaken and atrophy. The
  only strong vasana is the current project. Then MMY pulls the rug out
  from under the followers on that project and starts a new one.
 
  Same process is repeated. All focus is give to the new project. All
  other desires and concerns become secondary or fall to very low on
  ones list. The corresponding vasanas weaken and atropy. Then the rug
  again is ripped out from under followers for the current BIG project.
 
  Repeated a number of times, all vasanas, are weakened, rooted out,
  atrophied and/or dissolved.
 
  What the project is doesn't matter. Its not the fruit of the action
  that paramount. Its the masters reaction. And the process of intense
  focus on one BIG thing. Its all a process to root out vasannas.
 
 Too gross a level to root out vasanas. 

I disagree. It is my experience that this method works. Perhaps I am
deluded. Perhaps you are. :)









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[FairfieldLife] Re: MMY Big Projects Root Out Vassanas

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
  On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:43 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   wrote:
   Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and
   rooting out,  the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which
   doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons.
  
   The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in
   itself. I think over time, other vasanas are roasted, as ones
desire
   for enlightnement becomes a sole focus. Other vasansas become
   subordinated or fused up into the enlightenemnt seeking desire.
  
  
   Use of this or parallel dynamics is what MMY does, IMV, which many
   attribute to bizzare and strange personal and organizational
behavior.
   I think there is great rhyme and reson to it.
  
   MMY creates grand projects that he strongly motivates his closer
   followers to feverently work towards and focus on, day and night,
   creating a deep desire in them to realize the project.  100%
focus is
   given. All other concerns and desires, even marriage, fall by the
   wayside. The vasanas for all such desires thus weaken and
atrophy. The
   only strong vasana is the current project. Then MMY pulls the
rug out
   from under the followers on that project and starts a new one.
  
   Same process is repeated. All focus is give to the new project. All
   other desires and concerns become secondary or fall to very low on
   ones list. The corresponding vasanas weaken and atropy. Then the rug
   again is ripped out from under followers for the current BIG
project.
  
   Repeated a number of times, all vasanas, are weakened, rooted out,
   atrophied and/or dissolved.
  
   What the project is doesn't matter. Its not the fruit of the action
   that paramount. Its the masters reaction. And the process of intense
   focus on one BIG thing. Its all a process to root out vasannas.
  
  Too gross a level to root out vasanas. 
 
 I disagree. It is my experience that this method works. Perhaps I am
 deluded. Perhaps you are. :)

This is the real meaning of The Myth of Sisyphus, IMV. Pushing the
rock up the hill, only to have it fall down, time and time again, is
really a process of ripping out vasanas. 











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[FairfieldLife] 1491 and Avian Flu Pandemic

I am reading 1491, by Charles Mann. I highly recommend it. 

It pulls together the abundantly and still emerging research from many
fields that paint a picture of pre-columbian Americas to be more
populated than Europe, over 100 million inhabitants, in many diverse
and sophisticated and urban centers, larger empires and
civilizations, extensive trade networks that spanned the continents,
and  many cultures and cities more advanced than european counter
parts of the day.  

Why we have been unaware of this, and why European conquest was so
relatively easy, is due to the huge pandemics that wiped out over 95%
of these populations in the 1500's from european diseases for which
the American civilizations had no resistance: chicken pox, diptherea,
hepititus A, etc.

It made me think of the parallels to the impending, though not
certain, avian flu pandemics which potentially could wipe out
relatively huge percentages of Europe and the Americas if they hit in
the next several years. A karmic balancing perhaps from the same
phenomenon -- contagious diseases spread to populations with no
natural resistance.  










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[FairfieldLife] Re: MMY Big Projects Root Out Vassanas

--- a_non_moose_ff wrote:

 This is the real meaning of The Myth of Sisyphus, IMV. Pushing the
 rock up the hill, only to have it fall down, time and time again, is
 really a process of ripping out vasanas.

Interesting, in the light of your experience. Although I 
would have thought the opposite -- that Sisyphus was 
in the trap of habitual behavior, unable to do anything 
differently, unable to be free.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: MMY Big Projects Root Out Vassanas

On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:59 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:43 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and rooting out, the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons. The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in itself. I think over time, other vasanas are roasted, as ones desire for enlightnement becomes a sole focus. Other vasansas become subordinated or fused up into the enlightenemnt seeking desire. Use of this or parallel dynamics is what MMY does, IMV, which many attribute to bizzare and strange personal and organizational behavior. I think there is great rhyme and reson to it. MMY creates grand projects that he strongly motivates his closer followers to feverently work towards and focus on, day and night, creating a deep desire in them to realize the project. 100% focus is given. All other concerns and desires, even marriage, fall by the wayside. The vasanas for all such desires thus weaken and atrophy. The only strong vasana is the current project. Then MMY pulls the rug out from under the followers on that project and starts a new one. Same process is repeated. All focus is give to the new project. All other desires and concerns become secondary or fall to very low on ones list. The corresponding vasanas weaken and atropy. Then the rug again is ripped out from under followers for the current BIG project. Repeated a number of times, all vasanas, are weakened, rooted out, atrophied and/or dissolved. What the project is doesn't matter. Its not the fruit of the action that paramount. Its the masters reaction. And the process of intense focus on one BIG thing. Its all a process to root out vasannas. Too gross a level to root out vasanas. I disagree. It is my experience that this method works. Perhaps I am deluded. Perhaps you are. :) OK is this Sparegg or Dr. P. talking?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: MMY Big Projects Root Out Vassanas

On Jan 8, 2006, at 9:10 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:43 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Though I think there is something very powerful in giving up, and rooting out, the search, path and desire for enlightenment. Which doesnot preclude still doing sadhana for other reasons. The search, path and desire for enlightenment is a huge vasana in itself. I think over time, other vasanas are roasted, as ones desire for enlightnement becomes a sole focus. Other vasansas become subordinated or fused up into the enlightenemnt seeking desire. Use of this or parallel dynamics is what MMY does, IMV, which many attribute to bizzare and strange personal and organizational behavior. I think there is great rhyme and reson to it. MMY creates grand projects that he strongly motivates his closer followers to feverently work towards and focus on, day and night, creating a deep desire in them to realize the project. 100% focus is given. All other concerns and desires, even marriage, fall by the wayside. The vasanas for all such desires thus weaken and atrophy. The only strong vasana is the current project. Then MMY pulls the rug out from under the followers on that project and starts a new one. Same process is repeated. All focus is give to the new project. All other desires and concerns become secondary or fall to very low on ones list. The corresponding vasanas weaken and atropy. Then the rug again is ripped out from under followers for the current BIG project. Repeated a number of times, all vasanas, are weakened, rooted out, atrophied and/or dissolved. What the project is doesn't matter. Its not the fruit of the action that paramount. Its the masters reaction. And the process of intense focus on one BIG thing. Its all a process to root out vasannas. Too gross a level to root out vasanas. I disagree. It is my experience that this method works. Perhaps I am deluded. Perhaps you are. :) This is the real meaning of The Myth of Sisyphus, IMV. Pushing the rock up the hill, only to have it fall down, time and time again, is really a process of ripping out vasanas. Yep, Doc P.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: MMY Big Projects Root Out Vassanas