Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

Ohh, finally, your point.  Well, I was happy recently that Judy a 
definition of what a True Believer is.  I liked it.  Are you a True Believer 
per the definition below?  I am definitely not one.   
 "True Believers tend to believe in Absolutist terms (either l00% true or 100% 
false) and they can't tolerate situations in which: 

 a. the truth is unknown
 b. the truth is midway between extremes
 c. simply unknowable
 d. variants such as true some of the time, but at other times not true, or 
true for some people but not others." 

 

 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/29/2014 12:30 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:
> What is your point in obsessing on dead Fred? 
 >
My point is that Barry is a True Believer.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

*You* stated that monkeys were flying and levitating, both, out of your rear 
end.  You stated it so many times that it seemed you were, in fact, stuck in 
this delusion.  For all your focus on Fred Lenz, you appear not to have read 
any of the first-hand experiences of the many students that experienced what 
they say they did.  You are, of course, entitled to your opinion that he is a 
magician.  He's dead now, so you won't be able to check it out yourself, 
personally, with him.  What is your point in obsessing on dead Fred?  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 > Thanks Richard!  Just curious.  I'm going to take a mental health 
> day as it is sunny outside and I hope you do too - actually, you might 
 > think about taking a mental health week or two, given the number of 
 > monkeys that have been flying out your ass.
 >
 Monkeys can't fly, Emily, whether out of my ass or anywhere else. But, I'd say 
the chances of a monkey flying are better odds than Fred Lenz levitating up in 
the air in a cloud of golden light, even one inch.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[punditster]

> Thanks Richard!  Just curious.  I'm going to take a mental health 
> day as it is sunny outside and I hope you do too - actually, you might 
> think about taking a mental health week or two, given the number of 
> monkeys that have been flying out your ass.
>
Monkeys can't fly, Emily, whether out of my ass or anywhere else. But, I'd say 
the chances of a monkey flying are better odds than Fred Lenz levitating up in 
the air in a cloud of golden light, even one inch.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

Thanks Richard!  Just curious.  I'm going to take a mental health day as it is 
sunny outside and I hope you do too - actually, you might think about taking a 
mental health week or two, given the number of monkeys that have been flying 
out your ass.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 11:13 PM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote:

 No, I was talking to you Richard.  

 >
 The thread is about Barry and 2nd stage flying - I'm just a basic TMer, I'm 
not a believer in the TMSP or levitation.
 I was simply wondering whether or not you thought you might be, or might have 
been, susceptible to mind control, etc. as a willing participant who believed, 
at least initially, in the teacher they had signed on with.  

 >
 The answer is no - I've never been brain-washed into giving  thousands of 
dollars to a cult leader and then been under his mind-control to the point that 
my brain went into a trance-induction state and I hallucinated that I saw Fred 
Lenz levitate hundreds of times.
 
  If that had happened to me, I wouldn't reveal it one a public discussion 
group and post it in the attempt to look spiritually superior to others. And, I 
don't think I would go around tacking up posters and handing out flyers 
advertising such an event. 
 Rama was a sick man, but at the time and given the context, I can imagine that 
many would have been, and did, in fact, believe in his message, and also, for 
whatever the reason, did perceive him as levitating.  "Real" is usually in the 
eye of the beholder.  Ask Share.  

 >
 We all share a common reality, Emily - most of us know when something is real 
or when we are hallucinating, even in a large group of people at a movie. 
Obviously, the cult members were drugged. The question is: Why would one of the 
cult members join a spiritual discussion group and try to convince us that 
their experience was real, WHEN EVERYONE KNOWS IT WAS EITHER FALSE OR A 
DRUG-INDUCED HALLUCINATION. Where is Dr. Pete when we need him?
 
 "The levitation I and thousands of other people witnessed *was* real.  We saw 
it.  We felt it." - TurquoiseB
 
  

 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
 mailto:punditster@... wrote :
 
 On 3/20/2014 6:50 PM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote:

 You didn't answer my question, Richard.  We are talking about you here.

 >
 We are talking about Barry, who claimed on FFL that he saw Rama in the 2nd 
stage of levitation, hundreds of times.

 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 11:13 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:


No, I was talking to you Richard.


>
The thread is about Barry and 2nd stage flying - I'm just a basic TMer, 
I'm not a believer in the TMSP or levitation.


I was simply wondering whether or not you thought you might be, or 
might have been, susceptible to mind control, etc. as a willing 
participant who believed, at least initially, in the teacher they had 
signed on with.



>
The answer is no - I've never been brain-washed into giving thousands of 
dollars to a cult leader and then been under his mind-control to the 
point that my brain went into a trance-induction state and I 
hallucinated that I saw Fred Lenz levitate hundreds of times.


 If that had happened to me, I wouldn't reveal it one a public 
discussion group and post it in the attempt to look spiritually superior 
to others. And, I don't think I would go around tacking up posters and 
handing out flyers advertising such an event.


Rama was a sick man, but at the time and given the context, I can 
imagine that many would have been, and did, in fact, believe in his 
message, and also, for whatever the reason, did perceive him as 
levitating.  "Real" is usually in the eye of the beholder.  Ask Share.



>
We all share a common reality, Emily - most of us know when something is 
real or when we are hallucinating, even in a large group of people at a 
movie. Obviously, the cult members were drugged. The question is: Why 
would one of the cult members join a spiritual discussion group and try 
to convince us that their experience was real, WHEN EVERYONE KNOWS IT 
WAS EITHER FALSE OR A DRUG-INDUCED HALLUCINATION. Where is Dr. Pete when 
we need him?


"The levitation I and thousands of other people witnessed *was* real.  
We saw it.  We felt it." - TurquoiseB






---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

On 3/20/2014 6:50 PM, emilymaenot@...  wrote:


You didn't answer my question, Richard.  We are talking about you
here.


>
We are talking about Barry, who claimed on FFL that he saw Rama in
the 2nd stage of levitation, hundreds of times.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

No, I was talking to you Richard.  I was simply wondering whether or not you 
thought you might be, or might have been, susceptible to mind control, etc. as 
a willing participant who believed, at least initially, in the teacher they had 
signed on with.  Rama was a sick man, but at the time and given the context, I 
can imagine that many would have been, and did, in fact, believe in his 
message, and also, for whatever the reason, did perceive him as levitating.  
"Real" is usually in the eye of the beholder.  Ask Share.
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 6:50 PM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote:

 You didn't answer my question, Richard.  We are talking about you here.

 >
 We are talking about Barry, who claimed on FFL that he saw Rama in the 2nd 
stage of levitation, hundreds of times.
 
 "Rama used a variety of so-called mind-control techniques to seduce his 
disciples. He had his subjects stare at him for long hours until they would 
hallucinate and "see" Lenz begin to glow or change shapes. Lenz told his 
followers that having these "visions" meant they were psychic."
 
 http://www.skepdic.com/rama.html http://www.skepdic.com/rama.html
 
 "The Rama guy I studied with had this particular siddhi down pat.  He could 
just "lift off" and "hang ten" in mid-air pretty much whenever he felt like 
it." - TurquoiseB
 
 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670 
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
 mailto:punditster@... wrote :
 
 On 3/20/2014 2:30 PM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote:
 > Richard, are you saying you couldn't be susceptible to mind control 
 > techniques or a trance induction state? 
 >
 What I'm saying is that the TurquoiseB is the "True Believer", and he 
 apparently was very susceptible to mind control and brainwashing and he 
 may still be in a trance induction state, but apparently he never 
 achieved the 2nd stage of yogic flying himself. Go figure.

 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 6:50 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:


You didn't answer my question, Richard.  We are talking about you here.


>
We are talking about Barry, who claimed on FFL that he saw Rama in the 
2nd stage of levitation, hundreds of times.


"Rama used a variety of so-called mind-control techniques to seduce his 
disciples. He had his subjects stare at him for long hours until they 
would hallucinate and "see" Lenz begin to glow or change shapes. Lenz 
told his followers that having these "visions" meant they were psychic."


http://www.skepdic.com/rama.html

"The Rama guy I studied with had this particular siddhi down pat. He 
could just "lift off" and "hang ten" in mid-air pretty much whenever he 
felt like it." - TurquoiseB


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670



---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

On 3/20/2014 2:30 PM, emilymaenot@...  wrote:

> Richard, are you saying you couldn't be susceptible to mind control
> techniques or a trance induction state?
>

What I'm saying is that the TurquoiseB is the "True Believer", and he
apparently was very susceptible to mind control and brainwashing and he
may still be in a trance induction state, but apparently he never
achieved the 2nd stage of yogic flying himself. Go figure.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 4:11 PM, Michael Jackson wrote:
> Unless its Benjy who is doing the duping, which is my vote.
 >
Compared to the TurquoiseB doing the duping?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

You didn't answer my question, Richard.  We are talking about you here.  
Willing volunteers are usually susceptible to what they sign on for, until they 
aren't anymore.  My guess is if you had signed on with Fred willingly and in 
search mode, you would have been susceptible too.  The key word here is 
"willingly". You ain't that special; you signed on with someone else.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 2:30 PM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote:
 > Richard, are you saying you couldn't be susceptible to mind control 
 > techniques or a trance induction state? 
 >
 What I'm saying is that the TurquoiseB is the "True Believer", and he 
 apparently was very susceptible to mind control and brainwashing and he 
 may still be in a trance induction state, but apparently he never 
 achieved the 2nd stage of yogic flying himself. Go figure.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 2:30 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Richard, are you saying you couldn't be susceptible to mind control 
> techniques or a trance induction state? 
 >
What I'm saying is that the TurquoiseB is the "True Believer", and he 
apparently was very susceptible to mind control and brainwashing and he 
may still be in a trance induction state, but apparently he never 
achieved the 2nd stage of yogic flying himself. Go figure.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Michael Jackson]

Unless its Benjy who is doing the duping, which is my vote.

On Thu, 3/20/14, nablusoss1008  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone 
reaching 2nd stage flying?
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, March 20, 2014, 7:28 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   According to Benjamin Crème, Lenz was very far
 from being enlightened having reached a point of evolution
 of 1.30. About the same level as Jack Lemmon, Alfred Joyce
 Kilmer and Alan Ginsberg. Since levitation can only be
 performed from pure consciousness we can conclude that Lenz
 duped his students in some way into believing they saw
 something that wasn't happening.
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[salyavin808]

According to Benjamin Creme. And who is his level on the scale according to? 

 Actually, Lemmon was undoubtably a genius and Ginsberg is a bit of a hero. 
Good company methinks. Any higher on this list and you end up next to the likes 
of Hitler
 

 Not heard of Kilmer, Val's dad?
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 According to Benjamin Crème, Lenz was very far from being enlightened having 
reached a point of evolution of 1.30. About the same level as Jack Lemmon, 
Alfred Joyce Kilmer and Alan Ginsberg. Since levitation can only be performed 
from pure consciousness we can conclude that Lenz duped his students in some 
way into believing they saw something that wasn't happening.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

Richard, are you saying you couldn't be susceptible to mind control techniques 
or a trance induction state? Get a grip, Richard.  Your brain is not thinking 
properly, but thanks for your opinion.  "REAL" can be defined in many ways.  
Could you define it; without a proper definition, this discussion is 
meaningless.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 2:01 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote:

 Willytex can't think that deeply. He only brings up the Rama guy because he 
thinks that doing so will push my buttons the way me talking about Maharishi 
pushes his. >
 I didn't bring up the "Rama guy" - you did, by responding to this thread - I'm 
simply posting my OPINION. 
 
 To me, Fred Lenz was Just Another Guy that could do amazing things with 
people's minds - some would call it WOO WOO, and others might call it MIND 
CONTROL or being in a TRANCE INDUCTION STATE. But, you're the only guy I know 
that actually claims to have seen Rama levitate for REAL. So it looks like 
we've got a REAL TB on our hands, with a brain problem situation. Go figure.
 
 The question is, have YOU ever achieved 2nd stage flying?
 
 > "I've witnessed real, hanging-ten-in-mid-air levitation."
 >
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[nablusoss1008]

According to Benjamin Crème, Lenz was very far from being enlightened having 
reached a point of evolution of 1.30. About the same level as Jack Lemmon, 
Alfred Joyce Kilmer and Alan Ginsberg. Since levitation can only be performed 
from pure consciousness we can conclude that Lenz duped his students in some 
way into believing they saw something that wasn't happening.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 2:01 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote:
Willytex can't think that deeply. He only brings up the Rama guy 
because he thinks that doing so will push my buttons the way me 
talking about Maharishi pushes his. 

>
I didn't bring up the "Rama guy" - you did, by responding to this thread 
- I'm simply posting my OPINION.


To me, Fred Lenz was Just Another Guy that could do amazing things with 
people's minds - some would call it WOO WOO, and others might call it 
MIND CONTROL or being in a TRANCE INDUCTION STATE. But, you're the only 
guy I know that actually claims to have seen Rama levitate for REAL. So 
it looks like we've got a REAL TB on our hands, with a brain problem 
situation. Go figure.


The question is, have YOU ever achieved 2nd stage flying?

> "I've witnessed real, hanging-ten-in-mid-air levitation."
>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 1:53 PM, Michael Jackson wrote:
> someone can have some good things about them, even teaching with true 
> spiritual wisdom and still screw up.
 >
Nobody said they were opposed to Rama, or to Rama levitating - I just 
want to know how it is possible. Did you ever achieve the 2nd stage off 
flying in the golden dome?

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 2:08 PM, Bhairitu wrote:
> Richard is the FFL graffiti artist.  I'm surprised the doesn't have a 
> "graffitiartist@" handle.  Go figure.
 >
So, has anyone achieved levitation or reaching the 2nd stage flying? It 
seems like a pretty straightforward question. Why are you having so much 
trouble with this? Go figure.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 1:53 PM, Michael Jackson wrote:
> I admit some of Willy's thinking and comments are so convoluted they 
> are almost impossible to understand.
 >
So, Rama was able to levitate hundreds of times, but the TMSP doesn't 
work. It's complicated.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Bhairitu]

Richard is the FFL graffiti artist. I'm surprised the doesn't have a 
"graffitiartist@" handle.  Go figure.


On 03/20/2014 11:09 AM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:


Richard, why are you so obsessed with Rama?  Are you going to obsess 
on Rama all day?




---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

On 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote:


The TMO should pay you to shut up.

>
So, have you been able to reach the 2nd stage flying?

"The levitation I and thousands of other people witnessed *was*
real.  We saw it.  We felt it." - TurquoiseB

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseBee]

From: Michael Jackson 

To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone 
reaching 2nd stage flying?
 


  
Willy Tex just likes to use the fact that Fred Lenz was a spiritual teacher who 
had some Energy and who allowed the blandishments of the ego to get the better 
of him. Willy ignores the fact that someone can have some good things about 
them, even teaching with true spiritual wisdom and still screw up. 


Willytex can't think that deeply. He only brings up the Rama guy because he 
thinks that doing so will push my buttons the way me talking about Maharishi 
pushes his. 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Michael Jackson]

Willy Tex just likes to use the fact that Fred Lenz was a spiritual teacher who 
had some Energy and who allowed the blandishments of the ego to get the better 
of him. Willy ignores the fact that someone can have some good things about 
them, even teaching with true spiritual wisdom and still screw up. I, even I 
admit that some people got some good things from Marshy by being around him and 
sometimes from his teaching.

But Willy just likes it when he feels he scores a point agin me or Barry. I  
admit some of Willy's thinking and comments are so convoluted they are almost 
impossible to understand.

On Thu, 3/20/14, emilymae...@yahoo.com  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone 
reaching 2nd stage flying?
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Date: Thursday, March 20, 2014, 6:40 PM
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
  
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
   
   
   Are you obsessing on Rama?  Or are you
 obsessing on Fred Lenz and his delusion that he was Rama?
 Helluva sad story, that one.  He was human in the end
 and died a gnarly psychotic, drug addict's death.
  Maybe a trip to Whole Foods will help ground you.
  Have a good day.  
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
 wrote :
 
 Richard, why are
 you so obsessed with Rama?  Are you going to obsess on
 Rama all day?  
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
 wrote :
 
 On
 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808
 wrote:
 The TMO
 should pay you to shut up.
 >
 
 So, have you been able to reach the 2nd stage flying?
 
 
 
 "The levitation I and thousands of other people
 witnessed *was*
 real.  We saw it.  We felt it." - TurquoiseB
 
 
 
 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

Are you obsessing on Rama?  Or are you obsessing on Fred Lenz and his delusion 
that he was Rama? Helluva sad story, that one.  He was human in the end and 
died a gnarly psychotic, drug addict's death.  Maybe a trip to Whole Foods will 
help ground you.  Have a good day.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Richard, why are you so obsessed with Rama?  Are you going to obsess on Rama 
all day?  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote:

 The TMO should pay you to shut up. >
 So, have you been able to reach the 2nd stage flying?
 
 "The levitation I and thousands of other people witnessed *was* real.  We saw 
it.  We felt it." - TurquoiseB
 
 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670 
http://www.mail-archive.com/fairfieldlife%40yahoogroups.com/msg19778.html
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

Richard, why are you so obsessed with Rama?  Are you going to obsess on Rama 
all day?  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote:

 The TMO should pay you to shut up. >
 So, have you been able to reach the 2nd stage flying?
 
 "The levitation I and thousands of other people witnessed *was* real.  We saw 
it.  We felt it." - TurquoiseB
 
 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670 
http://www.mail-archive.com/fairfieldlife%40yahoogroups.com/msg19778.html
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 12:47 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:
Really, Richard?  Well, I am glad I could help bring some sanity to 
you.  What is a "TB" in the sense you are using it with regard to me? 
 "True Believer?"  In what?  That I believe that the devotees of 
Rama's cult perceived what they did?  I have no reason to believe 
otherwise.  I have certain perceptions that I remember after taking 
LSD back in my 20's...oneness with Nature, for one.lots of people 
had the very same perception.  Was it "real?" - that all depends on 
how you define "real."  When drugs are in play messing with our brain, 
to use an easy example, I think of it as an "induced experience." 

>
*"I've witnessed real, hanging-ten-in-mid-air levitation." - TurquoiseB

*The really important question, Emily, is why did the TurquoiseB feel 
the compulsion to tell us that he DID see "real" levitation, when it is 
obvious that -- even in his own words -- what the TB experienced was 
very far from what could remotely be described as "real".


The story  would have been much more believable if the TB had admitted 
than he was on LSD when he saw Rama rise up and hover. That would be a 
REAL experience, not some "psychic siddhi" WOO WOO that Rama caused to 
go off in their heads. Go figure.


TurquoiseB:
> I will also admit, for the same reasons, that there might have
> been some kind of psychic siddhi going on, in which people's
> perceptions were altered to allow them to see a phenomenon
> that might not have been present on a physical level.  But
> there was never any suggestion of what was about to happen.
> The most he'd ever say was, "Watch."  He never said *what*
> to watch for, and levitation was only one of the siddhis he was
> good at, so there was no telling what, if anything, was going
> to happen.  And yet most of us saw stuff, and everyone who
> saw it agreed on what was seen.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 12:02 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote:
You are fucking certifiable dude. And quite the most hopeless advert 
for a lifetime spent on the "highest" spiritual path... The TMO should 
pay you to shut up.


Maybe that's his retirement plan.  :-)

>
It looks fer sure like we've got another TB on our hands - this time, a 
REAL certifiable, True Believer Dude. The TMO should hire these two guys 
to give yogic flying demonstrations.  Sweet!


TurquoiseB:
> > "I've witnessed real, hanging-ten-in-mid-air levitation."
> >

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote:

The TMO should pay you to shut up.

>
So, have you been able to reach the 2nd stage flying?

"The levitation I and thousands of other people witnessed *was* real.  
We saw it.  We felt it." - TurquoiseB


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

Really, Richard?  Well, I am glad I could help bring some sanity to you.  What 
is a "TB" in the sense you are using it with regard to me?  "True Believer?"  
In what?  That I believe that the devotees of Rama's cult perceived what they 
did?  I have no reason to believe otherwise.  I have certain perceptions that I 
remember after taking LSD back in my 20's...oneness with Nature, for 
one.lots of people had the very same perception.  Was it "real?" - that all 
depends on how you define "real."  When drugs are in play messing with our 
brain, to use an easy example, I think of it as an "induced experience."  

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 12:20 PM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote:

 That was a long time ago, Richard, in Barry's case.  In your case, you are 
seeing monkeys levitate out of your rear end as of this morning.  Catch a clue, 
Richard, catch a clue.  

 >
 It was just a story, Emily. There's no levitation or monkeys flying out 
anyone's butt. I just wanted to see how many informants on FFL were TB's - 
apparently that includes you. Go figure.
 
 "I've witnessed real, hanging-ten-in-mid-air levitation." - TurquoiseB
 
 
 
 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
 mailto:punditster@... wrote :
 
 On 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote:

 You are fucking certifiable dude.  >
 So, Barry claims he saw Frederick Lenz levitate "hundreds of times", but I'm 
the "certifiable dude". Go figure.

 
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 12:11 PM, salyavin808 wrote:
You are fucking certifiable dude. And quite the most hopeless advert 
for a lifetime spent on the "highest" spiritual path... The TMO should 
pay you to shut up.


Maybe that's his retirement plan.  :-)

I might chip in myself

>
How much? Please post here any evidence you have that proves levitation 
or the TMSP. Thanks.


"The Rama guy I studied with had this particular siddhi down pat. He 
could just "lift off" and "hang ten" in mid-air pretty much whenever he 
felt like it." - TurquoiseB


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/topics/63670

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 12:20 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:


That was a long time ago, Richard, in Barry's case.  In your case, you 
are seeing monkeys levitate out of your rear end as of this morning. 
 Catch a clue, Richard, catch a clue.



>
It was just a story, Emily. There's no levitation or monkeys flying out 
anyone's butt. I just wanted to see how many informants on FFL were TB's 
- apparently that includes you. Go figure.


"I've witnessed real, hanging-ten-in-mid-air levitation." - TurquoiseB




---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

On 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote:

You are fucking certifiable dude. 

>
So, Barry claims he saw Frederick Lenz levitate "hundreds of
times", but I'm the "certifiable dude". Go figure.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

That was a long time ago, Richard, in Barry's case.  In your case, you are 
seeing monkeys levitate out of your rear end as of this morning.  Catch a clue, 
Richard, catch a clue.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote:

 You are fucking certifiable dude.  >
 So, Barry claims he saw Frederick Lenz levitate "hundreds of times", but I'm 
the "certifiable dude". Go figure.
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[salyavin808]

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 From: salyavin808 
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone 
reaching 2nd stage flying?
 
 
   You are fucking certifiable dude. And quite the most hopeless advert for a 
lifetime spent on the "highest" spiritual path... The TMO should pay you to 
shut up.
 
Maybe that's his retirement plan.  :-)
 

 I might chip in myself

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote:
You are fucking certifiable dude. 

>
So, Barry claims he saw Frederick Lenz levitate "hundreds of times", but 
I'm the "certifiable dude". Go figure.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

Good job Richard.  Since monkeys are again flying and levitating out of your 
behind, you might check the drugs you've been ingesting and look at the 
side-effects that can happen.  Maybe stop hitting the Listerine in the AM? It 
isn't for drinking, just in case you don't know that.  
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 11:38 AM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote:
 > Stay with it Richard, stay with it..
 >
 Has anyone else out there ever seen anyone levitate, just once - I mean, 
 when you weren't high on LSD?
 
 One time down in Mexico a Yaqui Shaman once slipped some Mescal into my 
 taco and I saw God, his wife, Sophia, his daughter Ashley, and his son 
 Baal, all levitating right in front of me, with the Holy Ghost flying up 
 over my head. The next thing I knew was that monkeys were coming out of 
 my butt. So, this experience that I had makes the TB's experience look 
 like a tiny ant hill compared to a big tall mountain. Go figure.
 
 Shemp McGurk:
 > > Did you experience it only once?
 > >
 TurquoiseB:
 > Nope. Many times. As did most of the other students who
 > studied with the guy. I will also emphasise, for the record, the
 > word "most." Some people (10-15) never saw anything;
 > others (1000s over the years, sometimes 500 at once) saw
 > this stuff all the time. Therefore, it would appear to be a
 > phenomenon that is not entirely physical, and takes place
 > at least to some extent on subtle physical levels. If you're
 > asking whether it was ever recorded on film, I don't think
 > so, and I don't know whether it could have been. But it was
 > neat to witness, both as a phenomenon and as a field of
 > energy to be part of. The latter was the real benefit of
 > being around someone who is doing this, IMO.
 > 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseBee]

From: salyavin808 

To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2014 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone 
reaching 2nd stage flying?
 


  
You are fucking certifiable dude. And quite the most hopeless advert for a 
lifetime spent on the "highest" spiritual path... The TMO should pay you to 
shut up.

Maybe that's his retirement plan.  :-)

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[salyavin808]

You are fucking certifiable dude. And quite the most hopeless advert for a 
lifetime spent on the "highest" spiritual path... The TMO should pay you to 
shut up. 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 On 3/20/2014 11:38 AM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote:
 > Stay with it Richard, stay with it..
 >
 Has anyone else out there ever seen anyone levitate, just once - I mean, 
 when you weren't high on LSD?
 
 One time down in Mexico a Yaqui Shaman once slipped some Mescal into my 
 taco and I saw God, his wife, Sophia, his daughter Ashley, and his son 
 Baal, all levitating right in front of me, with the Holy Ghost flying up 
 over my head. The next thing I knew was that monkeys were coming out of 
 my butt. So, this experience that I had makes the TB's experience look 
 like a tiny ant hill compared to a big tall mountain. Go figure.
 
 Shemp McGurk:
 > > Did you experience it only once?
 > >
 TurquoiseB:
 > Nope. Many times. As did most of the other students who
 > studied with the guy. I will also emphasise, for the record, the
 > word "most." Some people (10-15) never saw anything;
 > others (1000s over the years, sometimes 500 at once) saw
 > this stuff all the time. Therefore, it would appear to be a
 > phenomenon that is not entirely physical, and takes place
 > at least to some extent on subtle physical levels. If you're
 > asking whether it was ever recorded on film, I don't think
 > so, and I don't know whether it could have been. But it was
 > neat to witness, both as a phenomenon and as a field of
 > energy to be part of. The latter was the real benefit of
 > being around someone who is doing this, IMO.
 > 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Richard J. Williams]

On 3/20/2014 11:38 AM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Stay with it Richard, stay with it..
 >
Has anyone else out there ever seen anyone levitate, just once - I mean, 
when you weren't high on LSD?

One time down in Mexico a Yaqui Shaman once slipped some Mescal into my 
taco and I saw God, his wife, Sophia, his daughter Ashley, and his son 
Baal, all levitating right in front of me, with the Holy Ghost flying up 
over my head. The next thing I knew was that monkeys were coming out of 
my butt. So, this experience that I had makes the TB's experience look 
like a tiny ant hill compared to a big tall mountain. Go figure.

Shemp McGurk:
 > > Did you experience it only once?
 > >
TurquoiseB:
 > Nope. Many times. As did most of the other students who
 > studied with the guy. I will also emphasise, for the record, the
 > word "most." Some people (10-15) never saw anything;
 > others (1000s over the years, sometimes 500 at once) saw
 > this stuff all the time. Therefore, it would appear to be a
 > phenomenon that is not entirely physical, and takes place
 > at least to some extent on subtle physical levels. If you're
 > asking whether it was ever recorded on film, I don't think
 > so, and I don't know whether it could have been. But it was
 > neat to witness, both as a phenomenon and as a field of
 > energy to be part of. The latter was the real benefit of
 > being around someone who is doing this, IMO.
 >

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[emilymaenot]

I will Richard.  I believe you.  Stay with it Richard, stay with it.all day 
Richard.  Continue to write about it.  Can you add a little description as to 
what that feels like?  What do the monkeys look like?   
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Now about a hundred monkeys are levitating out my butt. Why won't somebody 
help me?

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :
 
 A hundred monkeys just flew out of my butt, for REAL. Has  this ever happened 
to anyone else? Help me, someone, anyone, for God's sake,please, help me!
 
 
 On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:47 AM, mailto:punditster@...> wrote:
   Monkeys are flying out of my butt. For REAL!

So, I wonder why nobody else ever reported these momentous events on 
Sci-Skeptic. Go figure.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.skeptic 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.skeptic

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
"shempmcgurk"  
 wrote:
 > Unc, other than one other response to this thread (the one who said 
 > his brother did it pre-TM 20 feet down the road or something like 
 > that), you are the very first person who I have ever heard of that 
 > has claimed to have witnessed first-hand actual levitation.
 > 
 > As such, I feel compelled to ask you for much more detail to your 
 > experience, please.
 
 No problem.
 
 > When did this happen?
 
 Dozens of times -- probably more like hundreds, actually -- over
 a 14-year period starting in 1981. 
 
 > Where? Actual city/state and location (i.e. house, ashram, type of 
 > room, etc.)
 
 Dozens of locations. The first time, in the Los Angeles Convention
 Center. In the buildings we were using for our weekly meetings.
 In the desert. Once in a Denny's in the dead of night when no
 customers or waiters were around. :-)
 
 > Did you experience it only once?
 
 Nope. Many times. As did most of the other students who 
 studied with the guy. I will also emphasise, for the record, the
 word "most." Some people (10-15) never saw anything;
 others (1000s over the years, sometimes 500 at once) saw
 this stuff all the time. Therefore, it would appear to be a 
 phenomenon that is not entirely physical, and takes place
 at least to some extent on subtle physical levels. If you're
 asking whether it was ever recorded on film, I don't think
 so, and I don't know whether it could have been. But it was
 neat to witness, both as a phenomenon and as a field of
 energy to be part of. The latter was the real benefit of 
 being around someone who is doing this, IMO.
 
 > Who exactly did the levitating.
 
 Rama. Dr. Frederick Lenz. Crazy Fred. 
 
 As far as I know, he never practiced any techniques to 
 make it happen. As he explained it, he just woke up one
 day and remembered how to do it. Something from a 
 past life.
 
 He never taught how to do it to any of his students, as
 far as I know. 
 
 > Was it photographed/videotaped and if not, why not?
 
 No, and I don't know why not. He didn't believe very much
 in trying to document any of the things he could do. His 
 theory was that this stuff is hard enough to believe if it's 
 happening right in front of your face in the same room you
 are in (a statement I can attest to the truth of). So who's 
 going to believe a videotape?
 
 Because some people saw this phenomenon and others
 in the same room did not, I have my doubts that it would
 have been captured on videotape.
 
 > What was the circumstances of the manifestation, that is, was it in 
 > front of many people, just yourself...was the lighting and the 
 > surroundings such that it couldn't be faked, etc. 
 
 All the settings mentioned before, so "setup" or "prep" 
 required. In the one at Denny's a bunch of us were sitting
 around one of those round tables at 4:00 in the morning
 and all the waitresses disappeared, probably to grab a
 quick cigarette in the kitchen, and he smiled and just
 lifted up off the naugahyde diner seat and hovered there
 for about 30 seconds, grinning to beat all. :-)
 
 > I ask this because 
 > on my last trip to Las Vegas I visited one of those magic kiosks 
 > where they sell magic tricks and I actually saw a magician 
 > demonstate a "trick" that he was selling to the public in which he 
 > makes a coin levitate and spin right in front of you (and for the 
 > hell of it, I could NOT figure out how he did it but I DO know that 
 > it was some sort of magic technique and NOT actual levitation).
 
 My roommate during my last year with the TM organization
 was an airbrush artist who did costumes for Doug Henning.
 So Doug would come over to the house a lot and would
 show us some close-up magic. I know he was most famous
 for his big stage effects, but the man's real genius was with
 his close-up magic. I was two feet in front of him, able to
 move around and look at his hands from any angle I chose,
 and 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[punditster]

Now about a hundred monkeys are levitating out my butt. Why won't somebody help 
me?

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :
 
 A hundred monkeys just flew out of my butt, for REAL. Has  this ever happened 
to anyone else? Help me, someone, anyone, for God's sake,please, help me!
 
 
 On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:47 AM, mailto:punditster@...> wrote:
   Monkeys are flying out of my butt. For REAL!

So, I wonder why nobody else ever reported these momentous events on 
Sci-Skeptic. Go figure.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.skeptic 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.skeptic

 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com> wrote :
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
"shempmcgurk"  
 wrote:
 > Unc, other than one other response to this thread (the one who said 
 > his brother did it pre-TM 20 feet down the road or something like 
 > that), you are the very first person who I have ever heard of that 
 > has claimed to have witnessed first-hand actual levitation.
 > 
 > As such, I feel compelled to ask you for much more detail to your 
 > experience, please.
 
 No problem.
 
 > When did this happen?
 
 Dozens of times -- probably more like hundreds, actually -- over
 a 14-year period starting in 1981. 
 
 > Where? Actual city/state and location (i.e. house, ashram, type of 
 > room, etc.)
 
 Dozens of locations. The first time, in the Los Angeles Convention
 Center. In the buildings we were using for our weekly meetings.
 In the desert. Once in a Denny's in the dead of night when no
 customers or waiters were around. :-)
 
 > Did you experience it only once?
 
 Nope. Many times. As did most of the other students who 
 studied with the guy. I will also emphasise, for the record, the
 word "most." Some people (10-15) never saw anything;
 others (1000s over the years, sometimes 500 at once) saw
 this stuff all the time. Therefore, it would appear to be a 
 phenomenon that is not entirely physical, and takes place
 at least to some extent on subtle physical levels. If you're
 asking whether it was ever recorded on film, I don't think
 so, and I don't know whether it could have been. But it was
 neat to witness, both as a phenomenon and as a field of
 energy to be part of. The latter was the real benefit of 
 being around someone who is doing this, IMO.
 
 > Who exactly did the levitating.
 
 Rama. Dr. Frederick Lenz. Crazy Fred. 
 
 As far as I know, he never practiced any techniques to 
 make it happen. As he explained it, he just woke up one
 day and remembered how to do it. Something from a 
 past life.
 
 He never taught how to do it to any of his students, as
 far as I know. 
 
 > Was it photographed/videotaped and if not, why not?
 
 No, and I don't know why not. He didn't believe very much
 in trying to document any of the things he could do. His 
 theory was that this stuff is hard enough to believe if it's 
 happening right in front of your face in the same room you
 are in (a statement I can attest to the truth of). So who's 
 going to believe a videotape?
 
 Because some people saw this phenomenon and others
 in the same room did not, I have my doubts that it would
 have been captured on videotape.
 
 > What was the circumstances of the manifestation, that is, was it in 
 > front of many people, just yourself...was the lighting and the 
 > surroundings such that it couldn't be faked, etc. 
 
 All the settings mentioned before, so "setup" or "prep" 
 required. In the one at Denny's a bunch of us were sitting
 around one of those round tables at 4:00 in the morning
 and all the waitresses disappeared, probably to grab a
 quick cigarette in the kitchen, and he smiled and just
 lifted up off the naugahyde diner seat and hovered there
 for about 30 seconds, grinning to beat all. :-)
 
 > I ask this because 
 > on my last trip to Las Vegas I visited one of those magic kiosks 
 > where they sell magic tricks and I actually saw a magician 
 > demonstate a "trick" that he was selling to the public in which he 
 > makes a coin levitate and spin right in front of you (and for the 
 > hell of it, I could NOT figure out how he did it but I DO know that 
 > it was some sort of magic technique and NOT actual levitation).
 
 My roommate during my last year with the TM organization
 was an airbrush artist who did costumes for Doug Henning.
 So Doug would come over to the house a lot and would
 show us some close-up magic. I know he was most famous
 for his big stage effects, but the man's real genius was with
 his close-up magic. I was two feet in front of him, able to
 move around and look at his hands from any angle I chose,
 and I still couldn't figure out how he did it.
 
 I will admit for the sake of intellectual openness that some
 trick could have been involved in what Rama did, but I 
 honestly don't think there was any. The variety of the settings
 and the spontaneity with which he'd

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Pundit Sir]

A hundred monkeys just flew out of my butt, for REAL.

Has  this ever happened to anyone else? Help me, someone, anyone, for God's
sake,please, help me!


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:47 AM,  wrote:

>
>
> Monkeys are flying out of my butt. For REAL!
>
> So, I wonder why nobody else ever reported these momentous events on
> Sci-Skeptic. Go figure.
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.skeptic
>
>
> ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" 
> wrote:
>
> > Unc, other than one other response to this thread (the one who said
> > his brother did it pre-TM 20 feet down the road or something like
> > that), you are the very first person who I have ever heard of that
> > has claimed to have witnessed first-hand actual levitation.
> >
> > As such, I feel compelled to ask you for much more detail to your
> > experience, please.
>
> No problem.
>
> > When did this happen?
>
> Dozens of times -- probably more like hundreds, actually -- over
> a 14-year period starting in 1981.
>
> > Where? Actual city/state and location (i.e. house, ashram, type of
> > room, etc.)
>
> Dozens of locations. The first time, in the Los Angeles Convention
> Center. In the buildings we were using for our weekly meetings.
> In the desert. Once in a Denny's in the dead of night when no
> customers or waiters were around. :-)
>
> > Did you experience it only once?
>
> Nope. Many times. As did most of the other students who
> studied with the guy. I will also emphasise, for the record, the
> word "most." Some people (10-15) never saw anything;
> others (1000s over the years, sometimes 500 at once) saw
> this stuff all the time. Therefore, it would appear to be a
> phenomenon that is not entirely physical, and takes place
> at least to some extent on subtle physical levels. If you're
> asking whether it was ever recorded on film, I don't think
> so, and I don't know whether it could have been. But it was
> neat to witness, both as a phenomenon and as a field of
> energy to be part of. The latter was the real benefit of
> being around someone who is doing this, IMO.
>
> > Who exactly did the levitating.
>
> Rama. Dr. Frederick Lenz. Crazy Fred.
>
> As far as I know, he never practiced any techniques to
> make it happen. As he explained it, he just woke up one
> day and remembered how to do it. Something from a
> past life.
>
> He never taught how to do it to any of his students, as
> far as I know.
>
> > Was it photographed/videotaped and if not, why not?
>
> No, and I don't know why not. He didn't believe very much
> in trying to document any of the things he could do. His
> theory was that this stuff is hard enough to believe if it's
> happening right in front of your face in the same room you
> are in (a statement I can attest to the truth of). So who's
> going to believe a videotape?
>
> Because some people saw this phenomenon and others
> in the same room did not, I have my doubts that it would
> have been captured on videotape.
>
> > What was the circumstances of the manifestation, that is, was it in
> > front of many people, just yourself...was the lighting and the
> > surroundings such that it couldn't be faked, etc.
>
> All the settings mentioned before, so "setup" or "prep"
> required. In the one at Denny's a bunch of us were sitting
> around one of those round tables at 4:00 in the morning
> and all the waitresses disappeared, probably to grab a
> quick cigarette in the kitchen, and he smiled and just
> lifted up off the naugahyde diner seat and hovered there
> for about 30 seconds, grinning to beat all. :-)
>
> > I ask this because
> > on my last trip to Las Vegas I visited one of those magic kiosks
> > where they sell magic tricks and I actually saw a magician
> > demonstate a "trick" that he was selling to the public in which he
> > makes a coin levitate and spin right in front of you (and for the
> > hell of it, I could NOT figure out how he did it but I DO know that
> > it was some sort of magic technique and NOT actual levitation).
>
> My roommate during my last year with the TM organization
> was an airbrush artist who did costumes for Doug Henning.
> So Doug would come over to the house a lot and would
> show us some close-up magic. I know he was most famous
> for his big stage effects, but the man's real genius was with
> his close-up magic. I was two feet in front of him, able to
> move around and look at his hands from any angle I chose,
> and I still couldn't figure out how he did it.
>
> I will admit for the sake of intellectual openness that some
> trick could have been involved in what Rama did, but I
> honestly don't think there was any. The variety of the settings
> and the spontaneity with which he'd decide to do this stuff
> disallows any preparation or equipment.
>
> I will also admit, for the same reasons, that there might have
> been some kind of psychic siddhi going on, in which people's
> perceptions were altered to allow them to see a phenomeno

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[punditster]

Monkeys are flying out of my butt. For REAL!

So, I wonder why nobody else ever reported these momentous events on 
Sci-Skeptic. Go figure.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.skeptic 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/sci.skeptic
 

---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
"shempmcgurk"  
 wrote:
 > Unc, other than one other response to this thread (the one who said 
 > his brother did it pre-TM 20 feet down the road or something like 
 > that), you are the very first person who I have ever heard of that 
 > has claimed to have witnessed first-hand actual levitation.
 > 
 > As such, I feel compelled to ask you for much more detail to your 
 > experience, please.
 
 No problem.
 
 > When did this happen?
 
 Dozens of times -- probably more like hundreds, actually -- over
 a 14-year period starting in 1981. 
 
 > Where? Actual city/state and location (i.e. house, ashram, type of 
 > room, etc.)
 
 Dozens of locations. The first time, in the Los Angeles Convention
 Center. In the buildings we were using for our weekly meetings.
 In the desert. Once in a Denny's in the dead of night when no
 customers or waiters were around. :-)
 
 > Did you experience it only once?
 
 Nope. Many times. As did most of the other students who 
 studied with the guy. I will also emphasise, for the record, the
 word "most." Some people (10-15) never saw anything;
 others (1000s over the years, sometimes 500 at once) saw
 this stuff all the time. Therefore, it would appear to be a 
 phenomenon that is not entirely physical, and takes place
 at least to some extent on subtle physical levels. If you're
 asking whether it was ever recorded on film, I don't think
 so, and I don't know whether it could have been. But it was
 neat to witness, both as a phenomenon and as a field of
 energy to be part of. The latter was the real benefit of 
 being around someone who is doing this, IMO.
 
 > Who exactly did the levitating.
 
 Rama. Dr. Frederick Lenz. Crazy Fred. 
 
 As far as I know, he never practiced any techniques to 
 make it happen. As he explained it, he just woke up one
 day and remembered how to do it. Something from a 
 past life.
 
 He never taught how to do it to any of his students, as
 far as I know. 
 
 > Was it photographed/videotaped and if not, why not?
 
 No, and I don't know why not. He didn't believe very much
 in trying to document any of the things he could do. His 
 theory was that this stuff is hard enough to believe if it's 
 happening right in front of your face in the same room you
 are in (a statement I can attest to the truth of). So who's 
 going to believe a videotape?
 
 Because some people saw this phenomenon and others
 in the same room did not, I have my doubts that it would
 have been captured on videotape.
 
 > What was the circumstances of the manifestation, that is, was it in 
 > front of many people, just yourself...was the lighting and the 
 > surroundings such that it couldn't be faked, etc. 
 
 All the settings mentioned before, so "setup" or "prep" 
 required. In the one at Denny's a bunch of us were sitting
 around one of those round tables at 4:00 in the morning
 and all the waitresses disappeared, probably to grab a
 quick cigarette in the kitchen, and he smiled and just
 lifted up off the naugahyde diner seat and hovered there
 for about 30 seconds, grinning to beat all. :-)
 
 > I ask this because 
 > on my last trip to Las Vegas I visited one of those magic kiosks 
 > where they sell magic tricks and I actually saw a magician 
 > demonstate a "trick" that he was selling to the public in which he 
 > makes a coin levitate and spin right in front of you (and for the 
 > hell of it, I could NOT figure out how he did it but I DO know that 
 > it was some sort of magic technique and NOT actual levitation).
 
 My roommate during my last year with the TM organization
 was an airbrush artist who did costumes for Doug Henning.
 So Doug would come over to the house a lot and would
 show us some close-up magic. I know he was most famous
 for his big stage effects, but the man's real genius was with
 his close-up magic. I was two feet in front of him, able to
 move around and look at his hands from any angle I chose,
 and I still couldn't figure out how he did it.
 
 I will admit for the sake of intellectual openness that some
 trick could have been involved in what Rama did, but I 
 honestly don't think there was any. The variety of the settings
 and the spontaneity with which he'd decide to do this stuff
 disallows any preparation or equipment.
 
 I will also admit, for the same reasons, that there might have
 been some kind of psychic siddhi going on, in which people's
 perceptions were altered to allow them to see a phenomenon
 that might not have been present on a physical level. But 
 there was never any suggestion of what was about to happen.
 The most he'd ever say was, "Watch." He never said *wha

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > > > 
> > > > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it
appears to 
> > > > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked
into a 
> > > > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > > > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment
"by-and-by," 
> > > > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
> > > > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words,
seen 
> > > > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at
keeping 
> > > > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > > > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > > > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> > > 
> > > Never been said better.  Thank you.
> > 
> > A thousand or so messages earlier I noticed that a lot of the 'newly
> > awakened' didn't get that way until they left the TMO and/or TM. I
> > find this interesting. I seems that TM provides a good platform that
> > sometimes needs to be jumped off of...Rory is spot on!
> 
> And possibly it's the "jumping off" itself that acts as the
> catalyst for realization, rather than what it is the student
> is jumping off *of*.
> 

<> 

> "Walking away" means finally coming to trust oneself and
> one's intuition more than one trusts outside "authorities" 
> or lineage or tradition. That trust may be the catalyst IMO.

Thanks - hadn't thought of it that way before - makes sense. It is a
curious phenomena.

JohnY





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Llundrub]

> I think that like when someone leaves 
their parents and learn they can do things for themselves, that would sort 
of simply explain the phenomenon.Well, sure.  But are some 
children better atlearning to do things for themselves than others,and 
does that have anything to do with thepreparation their parents gave them 
before thechildren left?When I left home for the first time to go 
tocollege, for the first few weeks of the semestermany of the women in 
my dorm were miserablyhomesick, really unhappy and scared.  I 
wasn'tthe least bit homesick or scared.  (I had a greathome life, 
so it wasn't that I was happy to getaway!)  Somehow my parents managed 
to prepare meto leave home and start fending for myself betterthan some 
of the other freshmen's parents.-And 
yet, you left, and discovered for yourself that you didn't any longer need them 
telling you what to do. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "Watching trends in spiritual organizations"
> > and "analyzing the stories of hundreds of seekers"
> > are both objective approaches in which you evaluated
> > evidence and then derived a conclusion from that
> > evaluation.  In other words, you did a study.
> > 
> > I'm pointing out that to make it a *solid*
> > conclusion, you have to take the same kind of
> > analysis a bit further.  
> 
> I don't have to do jackshit.  :-)

Yes, you do, if you want to make it a solid
conclusion.

> I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

Non sequitur.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Llundrub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> .  What I said
> was that if you found leaving some trips more
> often triggered realization than did leaving other
> trips, you'd want to think about giving some
> credit to the trips themselves, in terms of what
> they provided by way of preparation.
> 
> The propositions aren't mutually exclusive, you see.
> 
> I think that like when someone leaves their parents and learn 
they can do things for themselves, that would sort of simply explain 
the phenomenon.

Well, sure.  But are some children better at
learning to do things for themselves than others,
and does that have anything to do with the
preparation their parents gave them before the
children left?

When I left home for the first time to go to
college, for the first few weeks of the semester
many of the women in my dorm were miserably
homesick, really unhappy and scared.  I wasn't
the least bit homesick or scared.  (I had a great
home life, so it wasn't that I was happy to get
away!)  Somehow my parents managed to prepare me
to leave home and start fending for myself better
than some of the other freshmen's parents.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseB]

> "Watching trends in spiritual organizations"
> and "analyzing the stories of hundreds of seekers"
> are both objective approaches in which you evaluated
> evidence and then derived a conclusion from that
> evaluation.  In other words, you did a study.
> 
> I'm pointing out that to make it a *solid*
> conclusion, you have to take the same kind of
> analysis a bit further.  

I don't have to do jackshit.  :-)

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Llundrub]

.  What I saidwas that if you found leaving 
some trips moreoften triggered realization than did leaving othertrips, 
you'd want to think about giving somecredit to the trips themselves, in 
terms of whatthey provided by way of preparation.The propositions 
aren't mutually exclusive, you see.I think that like when 
someone leaves their parents and learn they can do things for themselves, that 
would sort of simply explain the phenomenon.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:

> > > And possibly it's the "jumping off" itself that acts as the
> > > catalyst for realization, rather than what it is the student
> > > is jumping off *of*.
> > 
> > But maybe what the student has jumped off of has
> > something to do with the jumping-off being able to
> > trigger the realization.
> > 
> > > That is, if one analyzes the hundreds of stories of seekers
> > > who had their first serious realization shortly after walking
> > > away from a long-term spiritual trip, the process may have
> > > more to do with the "walking away" than it does with what 
> > > has been walked away from.
> > 
> > You'd probably have to do a much larger analysis
> > of seekers who left a trip to see what *percentage*
> > of them then had realizations compared to the 
> > percentage who left a *different* trip and then had
> > realizations.  If the percentages of realizations
> > after leaving various trips were roughly the same,
> > that would be evidence for your case.  If one or
> > more trips had significantly higher percentages,
> > then you'd want to think about giving some credit to
> > those specific trips themselves.
> 
> If all you believe in is "objective evidence," by all
> means do your study.

Non sequitur.  Did I say somewhere that all I
believed in was objective evidence?

> I was merely stating opinion,
> based on nothing more than watching trends in 
> spiritual organizations for a lifetime (at least).

Non sequitur.

"Watching trends in spiritual organizations"
and "analyzing the stories of hundreds of seekers"
are both objective approaches in which you evaluated
evidence and then derived a conclusion from that
evaluation.  In other words, you did a study.

I'm pointing out that to make it a *solid*
conclusion, you have to take the same kind of
analysis a bit further.  The study you did
wasn't thorough enough to support your
conclusion.

> I'm still convinced that the process of challenging
> one's assumptions and core beliefs can have some-
> thing to do with "triggering" further realizations.

I never said that wasn't the case.  What I said
was that if you found leaving some trips more
often triggered realization than did leaving other
trips, you'd want to think about giving some
credit to the trips themselves, in terms of what
they provided by way of preparation.

The propositions aren't mutually exclusive, you see.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > > A thousand or so messages earlier I noticed that a lot of 
> > > the 'newly awakened' didn't get that way until they left the TMO 
> > > and/or TM. I find this interesting. I seems that TM provides a 
> > > good platform that sometimes needs to be jumped off of...Rory is 
> > > spot on!
> > 
> > And possibly it's the "jumping off" itself that acts as the
> > catalyst for realization, rather than what it is the student
> > is jumping off *of*.
> 
> But maybe what the student has jumped off of has
> something to do with the jumping-off being able to
> trigger the realization.
> 
> > That is, if one analyzes the hundreds of stories of seekers
> > who had their first serious realization shortly after walking
> > away from a long-term spiritual trip, the process may have
> > more to do with the "walking away" than it does with what 
> > has been walked away from.
> 
> You'd probably have to do a much larger analysis
> of seekers who left a trip to see what *percentage*
> of them then had realizations compared to the 
> percentage who left a *different* trip and then had
> realizations.  If the percentages of realizations
> after leaving various trips were roughly the same,
> that would be evidence for your case.  If one or
> more trips had significantly higher percentages,
> then you'd want to think about giving some credit to
> those specific trips themselves.

If all you believe in is "objective evidence," by all
means do your study.  I was merely stating opinion,
based on nothing more than watching trends in 
spiritual organizations for a lifetime (at least).  

I'm still convinced that the process of challenging
one's assumptions and core beliefs can have some-
thing to do with "triggering" further realizations.  And
that this process can occur whether one's self-
challenges result in walking away from one's current
course of study or not.

As I've mentioned before on another forum ( and 
possibly here, because as a Sagg I tend to repeat
myself :-), I had a good friend who was a Paulist 
priest.  He told me something about his order that
really appealed to me.  He said that no one was
*ever* considered for a position of responsibility in
the order unless they'd gone through their own 
personal "dark night of the soul" and almost left
the Church.  The process of doubting and confront-
ing one's doubts (as opposed to "stuffing" them or
ignoring them) was considered absolutely neces-
sary for someone to be considered worthy of holding
a high office.  Those who had *not* gone through
their period of doubt and "come out the other side"
with their faith renewed were looked upon as 
blissninnies, and not to be trusted.

So for me this is the same process.  It's the *process*
that is important -- the active challenging of one's
assumptions and beliefs -- not the outcome.  That
*process* is what I suspect can trigger realization.

But then, I could be wrong about this.  And that
wouldn't bother me one bit.  I'm comfortable with
my opinion being mere opinion.  I don't have to
believe it's fact, or try to convince others it's fact.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > A thousand or so messages earlier I noticed that a lot of 
> > the 'newly awakened' didn't get that way until they left the TMO 
> > and/or TM. I find this interesting. I seems that TM provides a 
> > good platform that sometimes needs to be jumped off of...Rory is 
> > spot on!
> 
> And possibly it's the "jumping off" itself that acts as the
> catalyst for realization, rather than what it is the student
> is jumping off *of*.

But maybe what the student has jumped off of has
something to do with the jumping-off being able to
trigger the realization.

> That is, if one analyzes the hundreds of stories of seekers
> who had their first serious realization shortly after walking
> away from a long-term spiritual trip, the process may have
> more to do with the "walking away" than it does with what 
> has been walked away from.

You'd probably have to do a much larger analysis
of seekers who left a trip to see what *percentage*
of them then had realizations compared to the 
percentage who left a *different* trip and then had
realizations.  If the percentages of realizations
after leaving various trips were roughly the same,
that would be evidence for your case.  If one or
more trips had significantly higher percentages,
then you'd want to think about giving some credit to
those specific trips themselves.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Irmeli Mattsson" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Excellent post. My comments in between marked by .

Thanks, Irmeli.  Great comments too.
 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> > As I said in earlier posts, something *else* has
> > to happen for experiential knowledge, the
> > experiential reality, to change.  "Attachment"
> > in the sense MMY uses the term is not something
> > that can be dissolved by intention (other than
> > the intention to sit down, close one's eyes, and
> > begin TM).  Nor can it be dissolved via
> > intellectual examination or psychological probing.
> 
>  I think intellectual self inquiry, psychological probing and
> recognizing and transforming suppressed emotions are important
> techniques along with meditation that help you better navigate in 
> life and makes you faster ready for the next shift in awareness, 
> but the shift in itself doesn't happen through these means.

I'll buy that.  I do think one needs to strike a good
balance, though, and not get so self-involved (lower-
case s!) that it kills one's ability to be spontaneous.


> > It seems to me, based on my observation of what
> > realized people have said about the state of
> > ignorance, that the stages of experiential reality
> > are not backward-compatible, as it were.  You can't
> > fully recall the experiential reality of the dream
> > state once you are awake.
> 
>  I often like to metaphorically think of these different stages 
> of experiential reality ( this is a very good expression) as 
> different operating systems in a computer. I think it is also 
> possible that, when a new more advanced operating system gets 
> installed, the new one may be lacking some good properties the old 
> operating system had. It's the throwing away the baby with the bath 
> water syndrome. The more advanced operating system can pick up 
> those properties, once the defect is recognized. The old operating 
> system cannot pick up the more advanced qualities of the new 
> operating system.

Terrific metaphor, and very interesting observation
about the new OS lacking some good properties of the
old one!  And I should think it might be harder to
recognize personality defects when one is in a state
of wholeness with regard to one's consciousness, at
least until the "novelty" wears off.

> I have realized that if I really want to help another person, I must
> be able to experientially share her reality. In that position I look
> at the conflicts of her life and we try to navigate through them the
> best we can together. This kind of sharing is very difficult to do 
> in a chat group in internet

Yes, one's Internet persona can be different in
many respects from one's "live" persona.  But
by the same token, it may be easier to reveal
certain kinds of things about oneself when one
is at an electronic distance.

>, clearly easier in the physical 
> presence of the person. In every day life I feel it is more 
> rewarding to meet each person this way to the extent I can. It 
> doesn't feel a bit good to take a superior position.

Yup.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > > 
> > > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it appears to 
> > > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked into a 
> > > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-by," 
> > > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
> > > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, seen 
> > > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at keeping 
> > > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> > 
> > Never been said better.  Thank you.
> 
> A thousand or so messages earlier I noticed that a lot of the 'newly
> awakened' didn't get that way until they left the TMO and/or TM. I
> find this interesting. I seems that TM provides a good platform that
> sometimes needs to be jumped off of...Rory is spot on!

And possibly it's the "jumping off" itself that acts as the
catalyst for realization, rather than what it is the student
is jumping off *of*.

That is, if one analyzes the hundreds of stories of seekers
who had their first serious realization shortly after walking
away from a long-term spiritual trip, the process may have
more to do with the "walking away" than it does with what 
has been walked away from.

Buddha walked away from one teacher and one tradition
and found enlightenment.  Hundreds of other seekers have
had the same experience, even though what they walked
away *from* was always different.  Maybe the act of dropping
one's attachment to a tradition and its dogma -- *whatever*
that tradition and dogma may be -- is what acts as a catalyst
for realization.  Doesn't matter if it's TM one walks away from
or Buddhism, or Christianity or whatever.  

"Walking away" means finally coming to trust oneself and
one's intuition more than one trusts outside "authorities" 
or lineage or tradition. That trust may be the catalyst IMO.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Irmeli Mattsson]

Excellent post. My comments in between marked by .

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Let me take a stab at trying to straighten this
> out, as briefly as I can.
> 
> Intellectually, I know all this stuff, everything
> Rory has said, everything Barry has said in this post,
> about the nature of "ignorance."  I've heard it over
> and over and *over* again, and not only that, I'm
> completely convinced it's true.
> 
> I'm absolutely positive that I were I to become
> realized, I'd be saying the same things on my own
> hook.
> 
> What I hope I *wouldn't* be doing is to couch them
> in terms that suggest realization is a matter of
> psychology, of intention, of ideas, of stories, that
> the willingness to do a little tweaking here and
> there of how one thinks and reacts can bring
> realization about.
> 
> That may turn out to be difficult, because that
> may be how it all looks to me then; and because
> we lack a good vocabulary for expressing what it
> looks like in other terms.
> 
> But I hope I remember MMY's dictum "Knowledge is
> structured in consciousness"--not in psychology,
> not in the mind, but in consciousness--and its
> corollary, "Knowledge is different in different
> states of consciousness."
> 
> That's *experiential* knowledge, not intellectual
> knowledge, not psychological insight.  Another
> way to say it is, "One's experiential reality is
> different in different states of consciousness."

 This is very true. I have difficulties to remember, what my
experiential reality was before an awakening.

> 
> In the state of consciousness we've been calling
> "ignorance," one *cannot know* experientially 
> that the bars of the cage don't exist; and the
> intellectual conviction that they don't exist
> *does not affect* the experiential knowledge that
> they do.
> 
> As I said in earlier posts, something *else* has
> to happen for experiential knowledge, the
> experiential reality, to change.  "Attachment"
> in the sense MMY uses the term is not something
> that can be dissolved by intention (other than
> the intention to sit down, close one's eyes, and
> begin TM).  Nor can it be dissolved via
> intellectual examination or psychological probing.
>

 I think intellectual self inquiry, psychological probing and
recognizing and transforming suppressed emotions are important
techniques along with meditation that help you better navigate in life
and makes you faster ready for the next shift in awareness, but the
shift in itself doesn't happen through these means.
 
> 
> > In these discussions, Rory has been telling
> > you that you are free, and you have been asserting, over
> > and over, that he is mistaken and that you are not.
> 
> He is speaking from his state of consciousness,
> in which the experiential reality is that I
> am free.
> 
> And I'm speaking from my state of consciousness,
> in which the experiential reality is that I am
> not.
> 
> Both of us can be right; these are not mutually
> exclusive propositions as I just phrased them.
> 
> The mistake is for him to suggest *my*
> experiential reality is that I am free.
> 
> 
> > For now, in my opinion, you seem to be terribly attached
> > to the cell being real.  You don't even try to rattle the bars
> > or to examine them to see if they're real.
> 
> Very much au contraire.  I'm constantly rattling
> them.  And they make a lot of noise when I do.
> 
> > You already
> > "know" that they're real.  Anyone who says differently is
> > obviously fucking with you.  So what you do when some-
> > one tells you that the bars aren't real is to try to make the
> > person who's telling you the truth feel bad about telling 
> > you the truth.  You try to make the person who has caused
> > you "pain" feel pain himself.
> 
> And here, sadly, you veer off into putdowns, and
> inaccurate ones at that (as per usual).
> 
> I made it *explicit* to Rory, and I'm pretty sure he
> understood, that I was NOT suggesting he had any
> intention of "fucking" with me, to the contrary, in
> fact.  Nor was I trying to make him feel bad; I told
> him that as well.  What I wanted him to do was to
> *empathize* with my pain.  And indeed he did, to his
> credit.
> 
> Moreover, as I also made clear, he was "causing"
> me no more than annoyance at the misunderstanding.
> When I described my pain, I was recalling what I
> had felt the first time I'd been told, "Oh, you're
> not really overshadowed; you're not in ignorance;
> you're already enlightened."  That was years ago,
> and I got over it, but it did leave a scar.
> 
> I just hate to think of other people having to
> experience the same kind of pain when it's so
> utterly unnecessary.  I *hoped* I might be able
> to communicate the nature of the problem, but
> I don't think I was very successful.
> 
> Bottom line, I'd suggest to realized people that
> while speaking the truth of their own experiential
> reality is fine and important, if they can't
> empathi

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > > 
> > > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it 
appears to 
> > > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked 
into a 
> > > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-
by," 
> > > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not 
by 
> > > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, 
seen 
> > > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at 
keeping 
> > > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> > 
> > Never been said better.  Thank you.
> 
> A thousand or so messages earlier I noticed that a lot of the 'newly
> awakened' didn't get that way until they left the TMO and/or TM. I
> find this interesting. I seems that TM provides a good platform that
> sometimes needs to be jumped off of...Rory is spot on!
> 
> JohnY

Or the long dark night of the soul convinced them to leave, and 
rightly or wrongly, they've never looked back.

Actually, from the way some behave here, I suspect the long dark 
night is ongoing for many/most/all but they're in denial.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Rory describes the dysfunctional way I absorbed the teaching for 
> > many years, but in fairness to Maharishi, I recall many times when 
> > he talked about "the pathless path," implying we're already there.
> 
> Yes indeed.  I posted a quote from "Science of Being"
> to this effect a couple days ago.
> 
> > I also recall a period in the 1990s when he seemed to be 
> > trying to dislodge whatever conceptual attachments were
> > preventing our awakening to what is already there, talking
> > about the "mistake of the intellect" and what have you. 
> > 
> > In short, for me, it might be fairer to fault my understanding than 
> > MMY's attempts to straighten it out.
> 
> My experience--after some years of living fairly
> happily with MMY's concepts without examining them
> too closely--has been that if I take one of them
> right down to the nitty-gritty, I end up with a
> paradox or an infinite regress.  At first this
> bothered me, then I began to find it liberating.
> 
> The "mistake of the intellect" is key.  Intellectual
> teaching can *only* be delivered and received on the
> level of the "mistake," by definition.  It follows
> that any teaching about the ultimate Unity of reality
> that does *not* break down into paradox or infinite
> regress, when you take it as far as it can go, must
> be inauthentic.
> 

A few years back I re-listened to most of the 4 volumes of audio tapes
that Maharishi made for centers with the express purpose of looking
for references to the pathless path, pure non dualism, instead of the
dualism that is normaly emphasised. It's all there, but under the
usual surface.

JohnY






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > 
> > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it appears to 
> > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked into a 
> > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-by," 
> > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
> > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, seen 
> > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at keeping 
> > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> 
> Never been said better.  Thank you.

A thousand or so messages earlier I noticed that a lot of the 'newly
awakened' didn't get that way until they left the TMO and/or TM. I
find this interesting. I seems that TM provides a good platform that
sometimes needs to be jumped off of...Rory is spot on!

JohnY

 




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

> > > > No story no pain.
> > > 
> > > Bull.  The story is that there has to be a story.
> > 
> > Attachment to attachment.
> 
> I'm going to expand upon this, trying to speak as Rory
> does to the enlightened being that is Judy rather than
> the person who is going to interpret my three words
> above as a slam.
> 
> They're not.  They're a direct commentary on what I see as 
> the real issue here.  Rory (if I have interpreted his words
> correctly) seems to be saying that the "pain" of feeling
> "hurt" when someone tells you the truth is not your pain.
> It's not even pain.  It's the death struggles of an ego 
> trying to assert itself and survive.  It's nothing more than
> a shadow that is growing darker as the light shining on
> it becomes brighter.

Let me take a stab at trying to straighten this
out, as briefly as I can.

Intellectually, I know all this stuff, everything
Rory has said, everything Barry has said in this post,
about the nature of "ignorance."  I've heard it over
and over and *over* again, and not only that, I'm
completely convinced it's true.

I'm absolutely positive that I were I to become
realized, I'd be saying the same things on my own
hook.

What I hope I *wouldn't* be doing is to couch them
in terms that suggest realization is a matter of
psychology, of intention, of ideas, of stories, that
the willingness to do a little tweaking here and
there of how one thinks and reacts can bring
realization about.

That may turn out to be difficult, because that
may be how it all looks to me then; and because
we lack a good vocabulary for expressing what it
looks like in other terms.

But I hope I remember MMY's dictum "Knowledge is
structured in consciousness"--not in psychology,
not in the mind, but in consciousness--and its
corollary, "Knowledge is different in different
states of consciousness."

That's *experiential* knowledge, not intellectual
knowledge, not psychological insight.  Another
way to say it is, "One's experiential reality is
different in different states of consciousness."

In the state of consciousness we've been calling
"ignorance," one *cannot know* experientially 
that the bars of the cage don't exist; and the
intellectual conviction that they don't exist
*does not affect* the experiential knowledge that
they do.

As I said in earlier posts, something *else* has
to happen for experiential knowledge, the
experiential reality, to change.  "Attachment"
in the sense MMY uses the term is not something
that can be dissolved by intention (other than
the intention to sit down, close one's eyes, and
begin TM).  Nor can it be dissolved via
intellectual examination or psychological probing.


> In these discussions, Rory has been telling
> you that you are free, and you have been asserting, over
> and over, that he is mistaken and that you are not.

He is speaking from his state of consciousness,
in which the experiential reality is that I
am free.

And I'm speaking from my state of consciousness,
in which the experiential reality is that I am
not.

Both of us can be right; these are not mutually
exclusive propositions as I just phrased them.

The mistake is for him to suggest *my*
experiential reality is that I am free.


> For now, in my opinion, you seem to be terribly attached
> to the cell being real.  You don't even try to rattle the bars
> or to examine them to see if they're real.

Very much au contraire.  I'm constantly rattling
them.  And they make a lot of noise when I do.

> You already
> "know" that they're real.  Anyone who says differently is
> obviously fucking with you.  So what you do when some-
> one tells you that the bars aren't real is to try to make the
> person who's telling you the truth feel bad about telling 
> you the truth.  You try to make the person who has caused
> you "pain" feel pain himself.

And here, sadly, you veer off into putdowns, and
inaccurate ones at that (as per usual).

I made it *explicit* to Rory, and I'm pretty sure he
understood, that I was NOT suggesting he had any
intention of "fucking" with me, to the contrary, in
fact.  Nor was I trying to make him feel bad; I told
him that as well.  What I wanted him to do was to
*empathize* with my pain.  And indeed he did, to his
credit.

Moreover, as I also made clear, he was "causing"
me no more than annoyance at the misunderstanding.
When I described my pain, I was recalling what I
had felt the first time I'd been told, "Oh, you're
not really overshadowed; you're not in ignorance;
you're already enlightened."  That was years ago,
and I got over it, but it did leave a scar.

I just hate to think of other people having to
experience the same kind of pain when it's so

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > authfriend wrote:
> > >>
> > > > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > > > 
> > > > Rory wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it 
appears to 
> > > > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked 
into a 
> > > > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > > > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-
and-by," 
> > > > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not 
by 
> > > > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other 
words, seen 
> > > > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at 
keeping 
> > > > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > > > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > > > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> > > 
> > > Barry wrote:
> > >
> > > Never been said better.  Thank you.
> > 
> > Rory describes the dysfunctional way I absorbed the teaching for 
> > many years, but in fairness to Maharishi, I recall many times 
when 
> > he talked about "the pathless path," implying we're already 
there. 
> > I also recall a period in the 1990s when he seemed to be 
> > trying to dislodge whatever conceptual attachments were 
preventing 
> > our awakening to what is already there, talking about 
the "mistake 
> > of the intellect" and what have you. 
> > 
> > In short, for me, it might be fairer to fault my understanding 
than 
> > MMY's attempts to straighten it out.
> 
> While I remember such teachings, too (very rarely),

Just how many such lectures should MMY conduct? They're all 
videotaped, are they not?

 I think
> it should be remembered that Maharishi in these later
> teachings was attempting to "straighten out" or "dislodge"
> conceptual attachments that he, himself, had created in
> his students.
> 
> It was as if he was belatedly using the thorn of truth to
> remove the thorns of untruth that he'd stuck into us all 
> for so many years.

Words have a way of being misinterpreted, now don't they?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > 
> > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it appears 
to 
> > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked 
into a 
> > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-
by," 
> > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
> > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, 
seen 
> > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at 
keeping 
> > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> 
> Never been said better.  Thank you.

It may be a fairy tale, but there are plenty of people who have 
bought into this limiting story who still report 24/7 witnessing for 
years at a time. There have been studies published in scientific 
journals on them.




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > snip
> > > 
> > > > That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
> > > > in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."
> > > > 
> > > > That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > No story no pain.
> > 
> > Bull.  The story is that there has to be a story.
> 
> Attachment to attachment.

As opposed to obsession with non-attachment?




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Llundrub]

My experience--after some years of living 
fairlyhappily with MMY's concepts without examining themtoo closely--has 
been that if I take one of themright down to the nitty-gritty, I end up with 
aparadox or an infinite regress.  At first thisbothered me, then I 
began to find it liberating.The "mistake of the intellect" is key.  
Intellectualteaching can *only* be delivered and received on thelevel of 
the "mistake," by definition.  It followsthat any teaching about the 
ultimate Unity of realitythat does *not* break down into paradox or 
infiniteregress, when you take it as far as it can go, mustbe 
inauthentic.MMY talks about the nature of Reality being 
Self-referential.  But infinite regress or paradox iswhat 
Self-reference *looks* like to the "mistaken"intellect.If you take 
what is circular and try to lay itout in a linear form so the intellect 
cancomprehend it, you have to break the circle atsome point, leaving two 
loose ends that can't bebrought together (paradox).  You either have 
tolive with the paradox, or get rid of the looseends by extending the 
line indefinitely at bothof them (infinite regress).Once this sinks 
in, the ground is pulled right outfrom under your feet; the intellect has 
nowhere tostand.  Concepts are drained of their solidity andbecome 
slippery, mushy, and insubstantial.  It canbe scary, but it can also be 
exhilarating.The paradoxes and infinite regresses, and the*reason* 
for them, are all there in MMY's teaching,but you do have to do some probing 
to identify themand see where they lead, because he doesn't tend torub 
your nose in them, at least on the level of therank-and-file.  
(Experience of transcending is anessential component of the process, or was 
for me.)I don't know whether the conceptual structure ofhis teaching 
holds people back, or whether rippingthe concepts away before one is ready 
to see theirultimate uselessness on one's own terms would 
becounterproductive.  Maybe it depends on theindividual, and MMY 
walks a narrow line in anattempt to minimize the potential harm 
andmaximize the potential benefits of teachingconceptually (especially 
since so many of hisstudents are Westerners steeped in 
conceptualthinking).-I really liked this.  Now if 
you see the thoughts as they arise you will know the base of thought as 
consciousness, which is unity, always, already, when the mind is free of 
discursive thought, and then if you follow a thought you will see that for it to 
manifest it must come under duality.  One always has a choice to either 
remain at the source in unity or follow something through within duality. It's 
the difference between causal and quantum experience.  Either way however, 
the quantum can be found in the causal, though the opposite is not necessarily 
true. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > snip
> > 
> > > That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
> > > in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."
> > > 
> > > That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > No story no pain.
> 
> Bull.  The story is that there has to be a story.



You are correct if by that you mean that the belief that there has to be a 
story is itself a 
story, nothing more. An arbitrary concept which has taken on the false 
appearance of 
necessity.

L B S




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Rory describes the dysfunctional way I absorbed the teaching for 
> many years, but in fairness to Maharishi, I recall many times when 
> he talked about "the pathless path," implying we're already there.

Yes indeed.  I posted a quote from "Science of Being"
to this effect a couple days ago.

> I also recall a period in the 1990s when he seemed to be 
> trying to dislodge whatever conceptual attachments were
> preventing our awakening to what is already there, talking
> about the "mistake of the intellect" and what have you. 
> 
> In short, for me, it might be fairer to fault my understanding than 
> MMY's attempts to straighten it out.

My experience--after some years of living fairly
happily with MMY's concepts without examining them
too closely--has been that if I take one of them
right down to the nitty-gritty, I end up with a
paradox or an infinite regress.  At first this
bothered me, then I began to find it liberating.

The "mistake of the intellect" is key.  Intellectual
teaching can *only* be delivered and received on the
level of the "mistake," by definition.  It follows
that any teaching about the ultimate Unity of reality
that does *not* break down into paradox or infinite
regress, when you take it as far as it can go, must
be inauthentic.

MMY talks about the nature of Reality being Self-
referential.  But infinite regress or paradox is
what Self-reference *looks* like to the "mistaken"
intellect.

If you take what is circular and try to lay it
out in a linear form so the intellect can
comprehend it, you have to break the circle at
some point, leaving two loose ends that can't be
brought together (paradox).  You either have to
live with the paradox, or get rid of the loose
ends by extending the line indefinitely at both
of them (infinite regress).

Once this sinks in, the ground is pulled right out
from under your feet; the intellect has nowhere to
stand.  Concepts are drained of their solidity and
become slippery, mushy, and insubstantial.  It can
be scary, but it can also be exhilarating.

The paradoxes and infinite regresses, and the
*reason* for them, are all there in MMY's teaching,
but you do have to do some probing to identify them
and see where they lead, because he doesn't tend to
rub your nose in them, at least on the level of the
rank-and-file.  (Experience of transcending is an
essential component of the process, or was for me.)

I don't know whether the conceptual structure of
his teaching holds people back, or whether ripping
the concepts away before one is ready to see their
ultimate uselessness on one's own terms would be
counterproductive.  Maybe it depends on the
individual, and MMY walks a narrow line in an
attempt to minimize the potential harm and
maximize the potential benefits of teaching
conceptually (especially since so many of his
students are Westerners steeped in conceptual
thinking).






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > 
> > > snip
> > > > That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
> > > > in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."
> > > > 
> > > > That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > No story no pain.
> > 
> > Bull.  The story is that there has to be a story.
> 
> Attachment to attachment.

I'm going to expand upon this, trying to speak as Rory
does to the enlightened being that is Judy rather than
the person who is going to interpret my three words
above as a slam.

They're not.  They're a direct commentary on what I see as 
the real issue here.  Rory (if I have interpreted his words
correctly) seems to be saying that the "pain" of feeling
"hurt" when someone tells you the truth is not your pain.
It's not even pain.  It's the death struggles of an ego 
trying to assert itself and survive.  It's nothing more than
a shadow that is growing darker as the light shining on
it becomes brighter.

The "pain" of feeling bad because someone tells you
the truth about realization IS, as far as I can tell, just a
story.  And the story is fiction.  You seem to be trying to
make a case for the story being "real," just because 
you feel it.  In these discussions, Rory has been telling
you that you are free, and you have been asserting, over
and over, that he is mistaken and that you are not.

Your *stories* are what are imprisoning you, Judy.  You
are like a person pacing back and forth in a tiny jail
cell, the bars of which keep you from walking into the
world of freedom and liberation that you glimpse through
the bars and that you read about in the works of those 
who have "broken out of prison" before you.

What I think Rory is trying to say is that the bars of your
jail cell don't exist.  They are just a hologram, an image
of a jail cell that has no real existence. The bars have
no substance.  The only thing that keeps you in place
within the cell and keeps you from walking into the
world of liberation is your *idea* that the cell is real,
that the "bars" are real.

For now, in my opinion, you seem to be terribly attached
to the cell being real.  You don't even try to rattle the bars
or to examine them to see if they're real.  You already
"know" that they're real.  Anyone who says differently is
obviously fucking with you.  So what you do when some-
one tells you that the bars aren't real is to try to make the
person who's telling you the truth feel bad about telling 
you the truth.  You try to make the person who has caused
you "pain" feel pain himself.  

You talk about pain...well, I'll tell you...this whole process
is more than a little painful to watch.

The attachment I see here is your attachment to things
as they have been for your whole life.  You've learned
to cope with things the way they've been for your whole
life.  In your own words, you've "developed a thick skin."
You've learned to ignore any information that seems
contrary to the way things have been for your whole life.
You say, "The bars are real; the cell is real; I really *am*
a prisoner here, and I resent you who have tasted free-
dom telling me that the reality I see around me *isn't*
real."  The attachment, in other words, is to attachment
itself, to the status quo that you have developed a thick
skin about, to nothing ever really changing.

The cell isn't real.  The bars don't really exist.  One day
you're going to get tired of trying to intellectually under-
stand enlightenment and just go for enlightenment.  One
day you're going to forget your self and its attachments
and just start walking.  And when you do, you'll find 
yourself outside the cell.  It'll surprise the shit out of you.
You'll probably walk back and look at it, just to see if
it was real all this time.  You'll reach out and touch the
"bars" and your hand will go right through them, as if
they weren't there.  They weren't there.  All that was
ever there was your *story* about the bars, your sad,
sad tale of being stuck in jail, unjustly.

You'll realize that there was never anything you could
DO to escape from jail, because you were never in it
in the first place.  There IS no doing when it comes to 
escaping from the imaginary prison of self. 

I hope for your sake that this happens soon.  I know that
it'll happen, in spite of your self's efforts to keep it from
happening.  That's the magic of self realization -- even
the self can't keep itself from realization.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > And my impulse is to tell them what it felt like,
> > not to make *them* feel bad, but so they understand
> > the effect it had, assuming they will want to avoid
> > hurting someone else in the future.  
> 
> This is what people have been trying to tell YOU for years
> now, Judy, every time you call someone a liar over a matter
> of opinion, every time you suggest that they are lowvibe and
> unevolved because their politics aren't the same as yours, 
> every time you blast some innocent TMer bystander for the
> terrible sin of siding with one of your "enemies" on a.m.t.,
> every time you call someone a criminal or  a phony or 
> otherwise demonize them to "win" one of your arguments.
> 
> This level of feedback hasn't worked for you.

Right, because it's so blatantly, wildly inaccurate
as a characterization of my behavior.  Not just
inaccurate but deliberately misrepresentational.

I won't go into the details unless anyone is
interested; suffice it to say the misrepresentations
in the above are easily documentable, and in this
context hypocritical in the extreme.

> But you think it will for Rory?

*Even if* your description were accurate, which 
it is not, the context is so different your attempt
to draw a parallel is absurd.

> Given YOUR history on the Internet, aren't you in effect
> saying that YOUR feelings are the only thing that matters?

Given my *actual* history on the Internet, as
opposed to the viciously false one you've portrayed
here, most certainly not.

Not only that, you obviously haven't read the
discussion I was having with Rory with any
attention.  That isn't even what I was saying
to him.


> I'm sorry to bring the past into this -- that's 
> usually your schtick -- but taking this approach with Rory
> is just the height of hypocrisy coming from you.

Uh-huh.  You're the very last person in a position
to be accusing anyone else of hypocrisy.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[lurkernomore20002000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > 
> > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it appears 
to 
> > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked 
into a 
> > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-
by," 
> > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
> > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, 
seen 
> > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at 
keeping 
> > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> 
> Never been said better.  Thank you.

Unc, thanks for editing this conversation so some of us who can't or 
won't read the whole treatise can get the "nuggets"

lurk




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > > authfriend wrote:
> >>
> > > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > > 
> > > Rory wrote:
> > >
> > > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it appears to 
> > > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked into a 
> > > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-by," 
> > > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
> > > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, seen 
> > > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at keeping 
> > > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> > 
> > Barry wrote:
> >
> > Never been said better.  Thank you.
> 
> Rory describes the dysfunctional way I absorbed the teaching for 
> many years, but in fairness to Maharishi, I recall many times when 
> he talked about "the pathless path," implying we're already there. 
> I also recall a period in the 1990s when he seemed to be 
> trying to dislodge whatever conceptual attachments were preventing 
> our awakening to what is already there, talking about the "mistake 
> of the intellect" and what have you. 
> 
> In short, for me, it might be fairer to fault my understanding than 
> MMY's attempts to straighten it out.

While I remember such teachings, too (very rarely), I think
it should be remembered that Maharishi in these later
teachings was attempting to "straighten out" or "dislodge"
conceptual attachments that he, himself, had created in
his students.

It was as if he was belatedly using the thorn of truth to
remove the thorns of untruth that he'd stuck into us all 
for so many years.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Patrick Gillam]

> > authfriend wrote:
>>
> > > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> > 
> > Rory wrote:
> >
> > No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it appears to 
> > allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked into a 
> > conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> > automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-by," 
> > measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
> > those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, seen 
> > from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at keeping 
> > many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> > consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> > conceptual fairy-tale  :-)
> 
> Barry wrote:
>
> Never been said better.  Thank you.

Rory describes the dysfunctional way I absorbed the teaching for many years, 
but in 
fairness to Maharishi, I recall many times when he talked about "the pathless 
path," 
implying we're already there. I also recall a period in the 1990s when he 
seemed to be 
trying to dislodge whatever conceptual attachments were preventing our 
awakening to 
what is already there, talking about the "mistake of the intellect" and what 
have you. 

In short, for me, it might be fairer to fault my understanding than MMY's 
attempts to 
straighten it out.

 - Patrick Gillam




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > snip
> > 
> > > That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
> > > in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."
> > > 
> > > That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > No story no pain.
> 
> Bull.  The story is that there has to be a story.

Attachment to attachment.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> > the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> > from the vantage point of ignorance?  
> 
> No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it appears to 
> allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked into a 
> conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
> automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-by," 
> measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
> those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, seen 
> from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at keeping 
> many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
> consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
> conceptual fairy-tale  :-)

Never been said better.  Thank you.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And my impulse is to tell them what it felt like,
> not to make *them* feel bad, but so they understand
> the effect it had, assuming they will want to avoid
> hurting someone else in the future.  

This is what people have been trying to tell YOU for years
now, Judy, every time you call someone a liar over a matter
of opinion, every time you suggest that they are lowvibe and
unevolved because their politics aren't the same as yours, 
every time you blast some innocent TMer bystander for the
terrible sin of siding with one of your "enemies" on a.m.t.,
every time you call someone a criminal or  a phony or 
otherwise demonize them to "win" one of your arguments.

This level of feedback hasn't worked for you.  But you think 
it will for Rory?  

Given YOUR history on the Internet, aren't you in effect
saying that YOUR feelings are the only thing that matters?
You've certainly never given a shit about anyone else's
in ten years.  I'm sorry to bring the past into this -- that's 
usually your schtick -- but taking this approach with Rory
is just the height of hypocrisy coming from you.  It would
be different if you had displayed even an ounce of com-
passion or caring about the feelings of others in your Internet 
"career,"  but you haven't.  Shame on you for trying to lay
this hypocritical guilt trip on someone who has done nothing 
but try to tell you the honest truth, and with compassion







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Llundrub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Thought experiment: An electronic forum like this
> dealing with realization in which MMY participated.
> Would it be possible for him to discuss realization
> meaningfully with those who haven't yet achieved it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---No because in this forum an expert is too open to interpretation 
and question. To have manifest words menas people can criticize and 
take out of context. Do you think MMY would want to answer to you, 
woman?  In public? I think not. I would truely love to see that. I 
swear it.

MMY does give "answers to the Press" every Wednesday, online...




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "L B Shriver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> > That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
> > in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."
> > 
> > That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 
> > 
> 
> 
> No story no pain.

Bull.  The story is that there has to be a story.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[L B Shriver]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


snip

> That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
> in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."
> 
> That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 
> 


No story no pain.

L B S




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > 
> > > > I think you know what point I'm trying to make
> > > > here, Rory.
> > > 
> > > Yes, it would seem you feel happy and content with MMY's 
> > > formulations and unhappy with or wounded by some of ours.
> > 
> > Well, not exactly.  My point was that there are
> > ways to talk about realization that don't involve
> > (what amounts to) disrespecting the experience of
> > the unrealized, but that are still useful to us.
> > MMY isn't the only one who can do it by any means.
>  
> It would seem to me that MMY's formulations actually disrespect the 
> experience of the so-called unrealized *more*, for he seems to be 
> saying you are not enlightened until this, that or the other.

And he's right.
 
> I actually am respecting your experience NOW in saying you are 
> already enlightened, this that you are experiencing is actually IT, 
> that which God is showing you and experiencing through you in this 
> moment, and there is at most only a bit of clean-up left to do on 
> the bodymind's habits of thinking and feeling to help it reflect 
> that. 
> 
> What I am *not* respecting overmuch is your habit of calling where 
> you are, "ignorance." This much is true; it feels (if I may stretch 
> a point) a little like a rejection or a slap in the face of 
> Wholeness.

Well, fuck Wholeness if it can't take a joke.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Patrick Gillam]

Peter Sutphen wrote:
> 
> --- Patrick Gillam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > Byron Katie isn't much good at showing me how 
> > my ego screws up my life, but she is a genius at 
> > bursting the beliefs that make life difficult.
> > 
> >
> I see BK as very clearly revealing the attachment
> points that perpetuate ego. Our mind tells us
> stories/concepts/beliefs that we assume to be the
> reality of our experiencing, but they're not. She
> facilitates the dissolution of these attachment points
> by her method of inquiry which frees the mind from any
> story. Like transcending with your eyes open because
> her inquiry calms the vrittis of the chitta.

The Work of Byron Katie uses the principle of the 
second element, if you will. It uses the light to 
remove the darkness. By my remarks I meant she 
doesn't deal directly with attachment points. 

I like stuff that uses the principle of the second 
element. The point of my post was to say that 
sometimes, however, dealing directly with the dirt 
can be a good idea. In have freed myself of no small
amount of overshadowment by delving into the 
mechanics of ignorance and the wiles of the ego.

 - PJG




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
> > in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."
> > 
> > That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 
> 
> Yes, the pain is a visceral response. Created by what story,
> though? IOW, what was the idea we entertained that hurt us in the 
> first place?

"Us"??

There was no "idea."  There was my *reality*, i.e.,
that I suffer, I am overshadowed.

And then I'm told it's just my imagination.

Now, *there's* a "story" for you.  And you
know just what you can do with it.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Peter Sutphen]

--- Patrick Gillam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> snip
> 
> Byron Katie isn't much good at showing me how 
> my ego screws up my life, but she is a genius at 
> bursting the beliefs that make life difficult.
> 
>
I see BK as very clearly revealing the attachment
points that perpetuate ego. Our mind tells us
stories/concepts/beliefs that we assume to be the
reality of our experiencing, but they're not. She
facilitates the dissolution of these attachment points
by her method of inquiry which frees the mind from any
story. Like transcending with your eyes open because
her inquiry calms the vrittis of the chitta.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > I think you know what point I'm trying to make
> > > here, Rory.
> > 
> > Yes, it would seem you feel happy and content with MMY's 
> > formulations and unhappy with or wounded by some of ours.
> 
> Well, not exactly.  My point was that there are
> ways to talk about realization that don't involve
> (what amounts to) disrespecting the experience of
> the unrealized, but that are still useful to us.
> MMY isn't the only one who can do it by any means.
 
It would seem to me that MMY's formulations actually disrespect the 
experience of the so-called unrealized *more*, for he seems to be 
saying you are not enlightened until this, that or the other. 

I actually am respecting your experience NOW in saying you are 
already enlightened, this that you are experiencing is actually IT, 
that which God is showing you and experiencing through you in this 
moment, and there is at most only a bit of clean-up left to do on 
the bodymind's habits of thinking and feeling to help it reflect 
that. 

What I am *not* respecting overmuch is your habit of calling where 
you are, "ignorance." This much is true; it feels (if I may stretch 
a point) a little like a rejection or a slap in the face of 
Wholeness. I am not asking you to change, though -- just pointing 
out how it feels from this end :-)

> As to usefulness, my impression is that generally
> speaking, what he says is close enough to take me
> where I can leap from his road map to my own
> experience and not be so disoriented that I recoil
> in panic, at least so far.  The leap may not be
> comfortable, but it isn't intolerable.  And I've
> then been able to discard that part of the road map,
> at least at that level (often his maps have more
> than one level).
> 
> > That is of course your prerogative, and I am indeed sorry you 
are 
> > suffering. As I said, suffering sucks.
> 
> Aggghh.  I'm not suffering.  I suffered the first time
> I encountered this kind of thing, but then I grew a
> thicker skin.  Sorry I misled you by using the present
> tense, but I was trying to give you a more immediate
> snese of what it was like.  Now it's just annoying.

OK, glad to hear it has been downgraded to "annoying" -- but the 
recommendation still holds :-)
 
> > If you truly want to emerge from the suffering, I respectfully 
> > suggest you won't get much relief by asking us to change 
(because 
> > we know by now we aren't particularly good at changing for 
others)
> 
> Not sure who "we" is here.  

We is the beings or elements in me :-)

>And I'm not asking *you*
> to change, just for you to change your behavior.
I
> can do that; is it something you've lost the ability
> to do?

Could well be, at that; I do not appear to be very good at it 
lately -- it's that damned contentment :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Patrick Gillam]

Rory Goff wrote:
>  
> If you truly want to emerge from the suffering...
> [take] a closer look at the mechanics of the 
> suffering itself, and short-circuiting it. Again, I  
> suggest: Byron Katie's "Loving What Is." 

This suggestion ˆ occurred to me as I was reading 
this thread.

As much as I enjoy reading posts by Peter, Rory, 
Tom and others who write from the standpoint of 
enlightenment, I don't much try to understand what 
they're saying. (Maybe it's because they all say, "You 
can't get this intellectually.") However, my intellect 
is perfectly capable of understanding the mechanics 
of ignorance. In the TM tradition we were taught not 
to analyze the darkness, but that's all my intellect 
*can* analyze with any success.

As a result, over the past few years I've gotten 
acquainted with how I've made life difficult for myself.

The enneagram, for example -- far from being a 
mere personality profiling system --explains how 
people justify fear, anger or image issues in dealing 
with the world. (My favorite was anger. I was so 
pissed off when I could no longer attribute my 
temper to aggravated pitta!)

Eckhart Tolle explains how I feed my "pain body."

Chapter 3 of Robert Perry's _Path of Light_ explains 
how the ego creates its little world and feeds off 
other people by attacking them. (Perry is a teacher 
of the Course in Miracles.)

Byron Katie isn't much good at showing me how 
my ego screws up my life, but she is a genius at 
bursting the beliefs that make life difficult.

Tolle and others who endorse living in the now 
offer a refuge from lots of grief.

Between Tolle and Katie I can pretty much live a 
life like that I hoped TM would deliver. It's kind of 
a de facto enlightenment, even if it's not the real thing.

Of course, I attribute my success in grokking these
teachings to all my years of TM. Jai Guru Dev.

 - Patrick Gillam





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > I think you know what point I'm trying to make
> > here, Rory.
> 
> Yes, it would seem you feel happy and content with MMY's 
> formulations and unhappy with or wounded by some of ours.

Well, not exactly.  My point was that there are
ways to talk about realization that don't involve
(what amounts to) disrespecting the experience of
the unrealized, but that are still useful to us.
MMY isn't the only one who can do it by any means.

As to usefulness, my impression is that generally
speaking, what he says is close enough to take me
where I can leap from his road map to my own
experience and not be so disoriented that I recoil
in panic, at least so far.  The leap may not be
comfortable, but it isn't intolerable.  And I've
then been able to discard that part of the road map,
at least at that level (often his maps have more
than one level).

> That is of course your prerogative, and I am indeed sorry you are 
> suffering. As I said, suffering sucks.

Aggghh.  I'm not suffering.  I suffered the first time
I encountered this kind of thing, but then I grew a
thicker skin.  Sorry I misled you by using the present
tense, but I was trying to give you a more immediate
snese of what it was like.  Now it's just annoying.

> If you truly want to emerge from the suffering, I respectfully 
> suggest you won't get much relief by asking us to change (because 
> we know by now we aren't particularly good at changing for others)

Not sure who "we" is here.  And I'm not asking *you*
to change, just for you to change your behavior.  I
can do that; is it something you've lost the ability
to do?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > > > Thought experiment: An electronic forum like this
> > > > > dealing with realization in which MMY participated.
> > > > > Would it be possible for him to discuss realization
> > > > > meaningfully with those who haven't yet achieved it?
> > > > 
> > > > Meaningfully from whose point of view?
> > > 
> > > Whose point of view were you talking about above?
> > 
> > The point of view of those considering themselves to be in 
> > ignorance. If that is what you mean, I would say offhand (again, 
> > judging only from my own experience) that *no* concept of 
> > realization could come close to being meaningful, in the sense 
of 
> > being particularly accurate or useful from the vantage point of 
> > ignorance.
> 
> So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
> the nature of realization is accurate or useful
> from the vantage point of ignorance?  

No, I don't, particularly. Rather, at a certain point it appears to 
allow one to more or less happily remain in ignorance, locked into a 
conceptual framework of other-than-now and a belief in fully 
automatic, painless, effortless, mythical enlightenment "by-and-by," 
measuring oneself by our ideas of criteria set by others, not by 
those actual criteria honestly set by oneself. In other words, seen 
from one vantage point it appears to be truly magnificent at keeping 
many people asleep. While the description of the states of 
consciousness is stunningly beautiful, even this at best is a 
conceptual fairy-tale  :-)

Wait,
> scratch "accurate," since we know that's
> impossible.  But something doesn't have to be
> 100 percent accurate to be useful.

Yes, true. And again, I can really only go by my own experience, and 
speak from my own experience -- *not* dictate to you what is right 
for you :-)
 
> I think you know what point I'm trying to make
> here, Rory.

Yes, it would seem you feel happy and content with MMY's 
formulations and unhappy with or wounded by some of ours. That is of 
course your prerogative, and I am indeed sorry you are suffering. As 
I said, suffering sucks.

If you truly want to emerge from the suffering, I respectfully 
suggest you won't get much relief by asking us to change (because we 
know by now we aren't particularly good at changing for others), but 
rather more by taking a closer look at the mechanics of the 
suffering itself, and short-circuiting it. Again, I suggest: Byron 
Katie's "Loving What Is." 

And if you don't wish to change, that's OK too, as far as I am 
concerned at least. I love you as you are, perfect in this moment :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > > > Thought experiment: An electronic forum like this
> > > > dealing with realization in which MMY participated.
> > > > Would it be possible for him to discuss realization
> > > > meaningfully with those who haven't yet achieved it?
> > > 
> > > Meaningfully from whose point of view?
> > 
> > Whose point of view were you talking about above?
> 
> The point of view of those considering themselves to be in 
> ignorance. If that is what you mean, I would say offhand (again, 
> judging only from my own experience) that *no* concept of 
> realization could come close to being meaningful, in the sense of 
> being particularly accurate or useful from the vantage point of 
> ignorance.

So you don't think any of MMY's teaching about
the nature of realization is accurate or useful
from the vantage point of ignorance?  Wait,
scratch "accurate," since we know that's
impossible.  But something doesn't have to be
100 percent accurate to be useful.

I think you know what point I'm trying to make
here, Rory.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Yes, after participating on FFL for the past few years I 
have 
> > > > reluctantly come to believe that no really meaningful 
discussion
> > > > can be held on that particular subject -- hence the wise not 
> > > > speaking and so on. *Except* with those who are *on the 
brink* 
> as 
> > > > it were :-)
> > > 
> > > Thought experiment: An electronic forum like this
> > > dealing with realization in which MMY participated.
> > > Would it be possible for him to discuss realization
> > > meaningfully with those who haven't yet achieved it?
> > 
> > Meaningfully from whose point of view?
> 
> Whose point of view were you talking about above?

The point of view of those considering themselves to be in 
ignorance. If that is what you mean, I would say offhand (again, 
judging only from my own experience) that *no* concept of 
realization could come close to being meaningful, in the sense of 
being particularly accurate or useful from the vantage point of 
ignorance. Which is not to say that Wholeness doesn't love our 
trying to discuss IT :-)





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

Rory wrote:
> > Yes, I can certainly see how all that would feel hurtful, Judy.
> > FWIW I have not intended to imply *fault* or lay *blame* on you, 
as 
> > I see nothing to blame you *for*.
> 
> I know you haven't, Rory.  Try this: add the words "to
> them" (i.e., to the unrealized person) following "that
> suggests" to the quote above.
> 
> That's where empathy comes in: recognizing that while
> you don't *intend* something you say that way, it's
> likely to be *taken* that way by the person you're
> talking to.  That's what I meant by "treading
> carefully."

I see. I guess I have no empathy left then, as you define it. I did 
spend many years attempting to second-guess how others might feel 
and "tread carefully" around other people's wounds, and I just can't 
do it anymore. It didn't do any good anyway. The 
anger/pain/betrayal/blame remained, regardless of what I did or did 
not do in attempting to avoid triggering it.  :-) 


> 
> 
> > I have no idea of what another is "really" feeling in 
themselves -- 
> > only how s/he feels *in me*. As such, s/he is always my perfect 
> > mirror :-)
> 
> I don't really know what that means, but it doesn't
> sound like what I mean by "empathy."

No, that is "cessation of pain" :-)
 
> > > It really feels like someone with great big
> > > muddy hobnailed boots trampling on one's
> > > very tenderest, most vulnerable feelings.
> > 
> > Yes, I can certainly see how this would be quite painful. You 
have 
> > my deepest sympathies; heart-pain really sucks. 
> > 
> > It would appear that if we are to avoid heart-pain in the 
future, 
> > something has to change.
> >  
> > As you are unlikely to be able to get everyone around you to 
> > change,
> 
> But maybe one person here and there?

Maybe so -- but I have never found combing the mirror to be 
particularly useful if I really want to get my hair in order :-)

> > you may have to settle for changing yourself -- for 
> > changing your "story" of what is really going on. 
> > 
> > If you actually want to heal, some Byron Katie-practice ("Loving 
> > What Is") might be very helpful here. When we find ourselves 
upset 
> > or pained by a particular thought (e.g. perhaps "People 
shouldn't 
> > trample on my feelings with hobnail boots")
> 
> That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
> in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."
> 
> That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 

Yes, the pain is a visceral response. Created by what story, though? 
IOW, what was the idea we entertained that hurt us in the first 
place?
 
> My next thought is, "This person isn't saying what
> they said to hurt me.  They didn't realize they were
> trampling on my feelings with hobnail boots."  (That's
> *my* empathy kicking in.  I sure hope that isn't just
> a "story.")
> 
> And my impulse is to tell them what it felt like,
> not to make *them* feel bad, but so they understand
> the effect it had, assuming they will want to avoid
> hurting someone else in the future.  (I'm not alone
> in having these feelings, for the record.)

Of course you're not. :-)





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Bhairitu]

Llundrub wrote:

>Have you been to India?
>
>Not in this life. No. I would love to go. Barring world catastrophy I 
>certainly will. I knew what you meant, but that doesn't mean that I also am 
>wrong. Even if you came from there and are now here it still would be like 
>going back to the past to go there. Or not? Am I wrong?  
>  
>
I was there about 10 years ago and would like to go back.  I don't know 
about living there but I want to spend more time.  Incidentally in a 
western astrology technique called astro-cartography my Saturn line 
which is believed to show an ideal place to live ran right through 
Bombay.   Bombay smells, but that line also runs through a lot of neat 
places in India.

People in Indian regardless of status in life were friendly.  They are 
curious about westerners.  Even the airport security people would take 
time to chat often talking about how they wanted to visit America and 
that they had a cousin working here.   I actually dreaded coming back to 
the US as people would be uptight and assholes.  I wasn't 
disappointed.   Due to a flub-up at the Detroit airport we were delayed 
a couple hours as our luggage froze because they couldn't hook the plane 
up to the electrical conduit.  Needless to say people were not amused.

India's economy is booming and the new head honcho won on a platform of 
spreading it around a bit so the folks in the rural areas benefit too.  
When I was there some areas had not changed since the British were there 
and many of the buildings still had ancient early 20th century 
electrical wiring.  Also "Baywatch" dubbed in Hindi was one of the most 
popular TV shows.  :)


 




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Yes, after participating on FFL for the past few years I have 
> > > reluctantly come to believe that no really meaningful discussion
> > > can be held on that particular subject -- hence the wise not 
> > > speaking and so on. *Except* with those who are *on the brink* 
as 
> > > it were :-)
> > 
> > Thought experiment: An electronic forum like this
> > dealing with realization in which MMY participated.
> > Would it be possible for him to discuss realization
> > meaningfully with those who haven't yet achieved it?
> 
> Meaningfully from whose point of view?

Whose point of view were you talking about above?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > Basically, for someone who is realized 
> 
> Who is saying he is realized? Kill him! Scatter him to the winds! 
> :-)
> 
> >to say
> > something to someone in ignorance 
> 
> Who is saying she is in ignorance? Kill her! Scatter her to the 
> winds! :-)
> 
> >that suggests
> > it's somehow their *fault* that they're still
> > in ignorance, that they could turn it around in
> > an instant if they would only pull up their
> > socks, is hurtful.  To tell them they're not
> > really overshadowed, they just *imagine* they
> > are, is hurtful.  To treat their reality as
> > any less real to them than what the realized
> > person experiences as his or her reality is
> > hurtful.
> 
> Yes, I can certainly see how all that would feel hurtful, Judy.
> FWIW I have not intended to imply *fault* or lay *blame* on you, as 
> I see nothing to blame you *for*.

I know you haven't, Rory.  Try this: add the words "to
them" (i.e., to the unrealized person) following "that
suggests" to the quote above.

That's where empathy comes in: recognizing that while
you don't *intend* something you say that way, it's
likely to be *taken* that way by the person you're
talking to.  That's what I meant by "treading
carefully."


> I have no idea of what another is "really" feeling in themselves -- 
> only how s/he feels *in me*. As such, s/he is always my perfect 
> mirror :-)

I don't really know what that means, but it doesn't
sound like what I mean by "empathy."

> > It really feels like someone with great big
> > muddy hobnailed boots trampling on one's
> > very tenderest, most vulnerable feelings.
> 
> Yes, I can certainly see how this would be quite painful. You have 
> my deepest sympathies; heart-pain really sucks. 
> 
> It would appear that if we are to avoid heart-pain in the future, 
> something has to change.
>  
> As you are unlikely to be able to get everyone around you to 
> change,

But maybe one person here and there?

> you may have to settle for changing yourself -- for 
> changing your "story" of what is really going on. 
> 
> If you actually want to heal, some Byron Katie-practice ("Loving 
> What Is") might be very helpful here. When we find ourselves upset 
> or pained by a particular thought (e.g. perhaps "People shouldn't 
> trample on my feelings with hobnail boots")

That's not it.  The thought is, "That hurts.  I am
in pain.  I don't want to be in pain."

That's not a "story," that's a visceral response. 

My next thought is, "This person isn't saying what
they said to hurt me.  They didn't realize they were
trampling on my feelings with hobnail boots."  (That's
*my* empathy kicking in.  I sure hope that isn't just
a "story.")

And my impulse is to tell them what it felt like,
not to make *them* feel bad, but so they understand
the effect it had, assuming they will want to avoid
hurting someone else in the future.  (I'm not alone
in having these feelings, for the record.)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
 No apology required; I am certainly in ignorance too :-)
> 
> Or perhaps more accurately, ignorance is certainly also in me :-)

Actually, you are in 'ignorance' too: But we would have to 
read 'ignorance' backwards to get the 'r-o', add another 'r' 
(or 'are') and substitute the 'i' for 'y'. Geez, Rory, it is possible, 
though I admit quite difficult and convoluted, for 'Rory' to be 
in 'ignorance' ;) 




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" 
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > It appears to me to be more like waking up
> > > > > > > doesn't mean you can recall the dream.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You'd better watch out, Judy, I am starting to 
disbelieve 
> you 
> > > are
> > > > > > in ignorance, again :-)
> > > > > 
> > > > > No, see, that conclusion is purely a product
> > > > > of the distinction-making intellect.  It's
> > > > > based on observation of the kinds of things
> > > > > realized people tend to say.  It's as if you
> > > > > all need to be reeducated as to what it was
> > > > > like for you before you awakened, at least if
> > > > > you expect to be able to converse with those
> > > > > in ignorance.
> > > > 
> > > > I don't mean to sound snappish, by the way.
> > > > I'm just trying to be as clear as I possibly
> > > > can be.
> > > 
> > > No, no, it's OK -- you are reminding me that I am unable to 
> > actually 
> > > discuss this with those in ignorance. The trouble is, my heart 
> does 
> > > *not* see you in ignorance :-)
> > 
> > My brain isn't sure you're NOT in ignorance, sorry...
> 
> No apology required; I am certainly in ignorance too :-)

Or perhaps more accurately, ignorance is certainly also in me :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > It appears to me to be more like waking up
> > > > > > doesn't mean you can recall the dream.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You'd better watch out, Judy, I am starting to disbelieve 
you 
> > are
> > > > > in ignorance, again :-)
> > > > 
> > > > No, see, that conclusion is purely a product
> > > > of the distinction-making intellect.  It's
> > > > based on observation of the kinds of things
> > > > realized people tend to say.  It's as if you
> > > > all need to be reeducated as to what it was
> > > > like for you before you awakened, at least if
> > > > you expect to be able to converse with those
> > > > in ignorance.
> > > 
> > > I don't mean to sound snappish, by the way.
> > > I'm just trying to be as clear as I possibly
> > > can be.
> > 
> > No, no, it's OK -- you are reminding me that I am unable to 
> actually 
> > discuss this with those in ignorance. The trouble is, my heart 
does 
> > *not* see you in ignorance :-)
> 
> My brain isn't sure you're NOT in ignorance, sorry...

No apology required; I am certainly in ignorance too :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, after participating on FFL for the past few years I have 
> > reluctantly come to believe that no really meaningful discussion
> > can be held on that particular subject -- hence the wise not 
> > speaking and so on. *Except* with those who are *on the brink* as 
> > it were :-)
> 
> Thought experiment: An electronic forum like this
> dealing with realization in which MMY participated.
> Would it be possible for him to discuss realization
> meaningfully with those who haven't yet achieved it?

Meaningfully from whose point of view?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > I think using the term "belief" muddles
> > > rather than clarifies.
> > 
> > I think perhaps *anything* I say is going to muddle rather than 
> > clarify, so perhaps I should just wise up and shut up :-)
> 
> If you want to give up, fine.  I don't think
> you *have* to.

*lol* I never said I was wise...and it is very hard to get me to shut 
up :-)




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Rory Goff]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > > > Empathizing doesn't mean accepting; it *does*
> > > > > mean being able to acknowledge, and to tread
> > > > > carefully.
> > > > 
> > > > I *do* acknowledge your assessment of your condition, and 
that
> > > > for you your assessment of you is realer than mine is of you 
> > > > (as of course it must and should be, if we are separate); 
but 
> > > > what is it I am to tread carefully around?
> > > 
> > > *Feelings*.
> > 
> > Yes; feelings are most important. What feelings are arising that
> > you would like me to tread carefully around?
> 
> (I don't mean just you and just me specifically,
> although I include us.)
> 
> Basically, for someone who is realized 

Who is saying he is realized? Kill him! Scatter him to the winds! 
:-)

>to say
> something to someone in ignorance 

Who is saying she is in ignorance? Kill her! Scatter her to the 
winds! :-)

>that suggests
> it's somehow their *fault* that they're still
> in ignorance, that they could turn it around in
> an instant if they would only pull up their
> socks, is hurtful.  To tell them they're not
> really overshadowed, they just *imagine* they
> are, is hurtful.  To treat their reality as
> any less real to them than what the realized
> person experiences as his or her reality is
> hurtful.

Yes, I can certainly see how all that would feel hurtful, Judy. FWIW 
I have not intended to imply *fault* or lay *blame* on you, as I see 
nothing to blame you *for*. I *have* expressed surprise that you see 
yourself to be still in ignorance, for your wakeful presence in my 
heart appears to argue otherwise. But hey, what do *I* know? :-)

If you feel that as hurtful, OK; so be it -- sometimes the waking-up 
process itself can hurt -- sometimes even a *lot* -- but it happens 
when it happens, and is something neither you nor I have a whit of 
real control over. As you have implied, we cannot argue ourselves 
into the one-pointedness or whole-heartedness that waking up might 
require, until we suddenly can and do :-)
 
> MMY, for one, doesn't do that, but at the same
> time he doesn't thereby dilute the reality of
> realization in the slightest.  (At least he
> doesn't do that in any of the tapes or written 
> mterial that's available to rank-and-filers that
> I've seen.)  He consistently respects the 
> "Knowledge is different in different states of
> consciousness" dictum.  
> I haven't ever found anything he's said to be
> hurtful. 

Yes, and his actual presence -- and speech -- can be *intensely* 
stimulating -- and *intensely* painful -- to one who is awakening. 

 But I've heard realized TMers say
> things that were hurtful in this respect and
> then blame those who found them hurtful for
> not wanting to know the truth, insisting that
> they themselves were only being compassionate.

I have no idea of what another is "really" feeling in themselves -- 
only how s/he feels *in me*. As such, s/he is always my perfect 
mirror :-)
 
> It really feels like someone with great big
> muddy hobnailed boots trampling on one's
> very tenderest, most vulnerable feelings.

Yes, I can certainly see how this would be quite painful. You have 
my deepest sympathies; heart-pain really sucks. 

It would appear that if we are to avoid heart-pain in the future, 
something has to change.
 
As you are unlikely to be able to get everyone around you to change, 
you may have to settle for changing yourself -- for changing 
your "story" of what is really going on. 

If you actually want to heal, some Byron Katie-practice ("Loving 
What Is") might be very helpful here. When we find ourselves upset 
or pained by a particular thought (e.g. perhaps "People shouldn't 
trample on my feelings with hobnail boots"), we might ask ourselves 
something like this:

Do I know this thought to be true? 

Do I *really* know this thought to be true?

Not asking myself to drop it, but how would I feel if I *didn't* 
have this particular thought?

Is there a turn-around that is applicable? (Perhaps something 
like "I shouldn't trample on people's feelings with hobnail boots" 
or even "I shouldn't trample on my own feelings with hobnail boots.")

 
> I don't see how this can possibly be a good
> thing, both because it's so discouraging and
> because it tends to make one wonder whether
> realization itself is such a hot idea if it
> renders those who achieve it so insensitive.

Perhaps it isn't such a hot idea! :-) Seriously, AFAIK, Realization 
(or Unrealization) arises when we see that such comparisons are 
painful and we cease comparing ourselves to others, for good or 
ill :-)




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<*> T

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Llundrub]

Thought experiment: An electronic forum like thisdealing with 
realization in which MMY participated.Would it be possible for him to 
discuss realizationmeaningfully with those who haven't yet achieved 
it?
 
---No because in this forum an expert is too open to 
interpretation and question. To have manifest words menas people can criticize 
and take out of context. Do you think MMY would want to answer to you, 
woman?  In public? I think not. I would truely love to see that. I swear 
it. 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[Llundrub]

Have you been to India?Not in this 
life. No. I would love to go. Barring world catastrophy I certainly will. I knew 
what you meant, but that doesn't mean that I also am wrong. Even if you came 
from there and are now here it still would be like going back to the past to go 
there. Or not? Am I wrong?  






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > It appears to me to be more like waking up
> > > > > doesn't mean you can recall the dream.
> > > > 
> > > > You'd better watch out, Judy, I am starting to disbelieve you 
> are
> > > > in ignorance, again :-)
> > > 
> > > No, see, that conclusion is purely a product
> > > of the distinction-making intellect.  It's
> > > based on observation of the kinds of things
> > > realized people tend to say.  It's as if you
> > > all need to be reeducated as to what it was
> > > like for you before you awakened, at least if
> > > you expect to be able to converse with those
> > > in ignorance.
> > 
> > I don't mean to sound snappish, by the way.
> > I'm just trying to be as clear as I possibly
> > can be.
> 
> No, no, it's OK -- you are reminding me that I am unable to 
actually 
> discuss this with those in ignorance. The trouble is, my heart does 
> *not* see you in ignorance :-)

My brain isn't sure you're NOT in ignorance, sorry...




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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> Yes, after participating on FFL for the past few years I have 
> reluctantly come to believe that no really meaningful discussion
> can be held on that particular subject -- hence the wise not 
> speaking and so on. *Except* with those who are *on the brink* as 
> it were :-)

Thought experiment: An electronic forum like this
dealing with realization in which MMY participated.
Would it be possible for him to discuss realization
meaningfully with those who haven't yet achieved it?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > I think using the term "belief" muddles
> > rather than clarifies.
> 
> I think perhaps *anything* I say is going to muddle rather than 
> clarify, so perhaps I should just wise up and shut up :-)

If you want to give up, fine.  I don't think
you *have* to.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Levitation/has anyone heard of anyone reaching 2nd stage flying?

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:

> > > > Empathizing doesn't mean accepting; it *does*
> > > > mean being able to acknowledge, and to tread
> > > > carefully.
> > > 
> > > I *do* acknowledge your assessment of your condition, and that
> > > for you your assessment of you is realer than mine is of you 
> > > (as of course it must and should be, if we are separate); but 
> > > what is it I am to tread carefully around?
> > 
> > *Feelings*.
> 
> Yes; feelings are most important. What feelings are arising that
> you would like me to tread carefully around?

(I don't mean just you and just me specifically,
although I include us.)

Basically, for someone who is realized to say
something to someone in ignorance that suggests
it's somehow their *fault* that they're still
in ignorance, that they could turn it around in
an instant if they would only pull up their
socks, is hurtful.  To tell them they're not
really overshadowed, they just *imagine* they
are, is hurtful.  To treat their reality as
any less real to them than what the realized
person experiences as his or her reality is
hurtful.

MMY, for one, doesn't do that, but at the same
time he doesn't thereby dilute the reality of
realization in the slightest.  (At least he
doesn't do that in any of the tapes or written 
mterial that's available to rank-and-filers that
I've seen.)  He consistently respects the 
"Knowledge is different in different states of
consciousness" dictum.

I haven't ever found anything he's said to be
hurtful.  But I've heard realized TMers say
things that were hurtful in this respect and
then blame those who found them hurtful for
not wanting to know the truth, insisting that
they themselves were only being compassionate.

It really feels like someone with great big
muddy hobnailed boots trampling on one's
very tenderest, most vulnerable feelings.

I don't see how this can possibly be a good
thing, both because it's so discouraging and
because it tends to make one wonder whether
realization itself is such a hot idea if it
renders those who achieve it so insensitive.





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