nt: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> Hi Dennis,
> Oh, I do see and understand what you are thinking of doing, but it
> really won't solve the problem. The game companies we are talking about
> in large part is going to consider all
those were words to the wise
from
Blind Fury
- Original Message -
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> but wouldn't it look bad putting a bl
;
> - Original Message -
> From: "Liam Erven" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list"
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
>
>
>> because that's copyright infringement
&g
n" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> We have a better chance of persuading mainstream devs of the value of
> accessibility than we do
Hi Josh,
I figure in 99 out of 100 cases the blind dev wouldn't do any jail time.
The most that would ever happen is he or she would be fined, and given a
court order to sease and desist.
Assuming the blind dev did go to jail, and assuming the general public
ever found out about it, it could mak
Hi Josh,
Well, if we would want to do that the blind would have to organize some
kind of nationally recognized advocate group, contact the U.S. Congress,
and contact many professional game companies, etc...
Not only that the group would have to raise money, higher lawyers, and
generally get the
Hi Bryan,
As we recently discussed on the private USA Games testing list making
games configurable is good, but sometimes too much configuration is too
much for a developer or company.
For example, it would be wonderful if accessibility could be switched on
or off, but everytime a company would
;
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> Hi Dark,
>
> The UK copyright situation has recently changed because of the Disability
> Discrimination Act. Previously you had to ask permission from the
>
07 19:03
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
Hi thom.
I am actually looking into getting hold of The Dark tower at the moment, and
have also gone through the hiddiously tortuous and long winded process that
it takes to get stuff from the National Libruary of
y, even think up new abilities.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "Dark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> Oh how irrirrirrirrirrirratating
ny comments on the idea would be more than welcome.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bryan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list"
> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessib
st"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> One R, Dark, only one R in Mario.
> Bryan and Jennie
> - Original Message -
> From: "Dark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list"
&g
You never know what a company will do these days.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> but wouldn't
One R, Dark, only one R in Mario.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "Dark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> This actually appears to be one
stances
would work, however I think if I make this mail any longer I'll have trouble
posting it.
all the best,
Dark.
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:00
Hi Bryan,
Copyright infringement isn't a major crime. So no worries about prison.
However, it could result in paying of fines, comunity service, or
payment of damages.
Most cases of that sourt would likely wind up in civil cort rather than
criminal court.
Bryan Peterson wrote:
> Then we'd proba
And how do you propose to do that. As much as I hate to say it we're in the
minority.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [A
ry 18, 2007 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> Hi Josh,
>
> Quote
>> And if we couldn't pay the fine? then what?
> End quote
>
> Well, based on my own knolege of the U.S. court system if you are unable
> to pay a fine you would likely be ordered to
I agree
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Josh
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:36 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
then maybe we as the blind people should get involved and make changes to
the
then maybe we as the blind people should get involved and make changes to
the laws.
Josh
- Original Message -
From: "Bryan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 11:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing a
In response to what Aaron says. But, then the law has to be changed so we
can make accessible versions of games without getting in trouble.
Just like its ok to make books in an accessible format, it should be ok to
reproduce games in a specialised format for the blind.
Josh
___
Hi Josh,
We could get in to the entire theory why a government must exist, it's
purpose, and so on but I won't. I will simply say without government,
rules, and a court to enforce them what you end up with is total anarchy
and no one to protect the rights of anyone.
Besides as far as copyrights
Hi Josh,
Quote
> And if we couldn't pay the fine? then what?
End quote
Well, based on my own knolege of the U.S. court system if you are unable
to pay a fine you would likely be ordered to do some kind of comunity
service job until the fine was paid off. If you refused to do the
comunity servi
Grue! (especially when wranting).
dark.
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> Hi Dark,
> Quite true. Different governments h
Hi Dark,
Well, obviously some games are going to be harder to translate in to
audio than others.
I think bomberman would be possible, and you could be over complicating
it some. I haven't thought it totally through as well as you have, but
having played the original eons ago I think an audio ver
Hi Dennis,
Oh, I do see and understand what you are thinking of doing, but it
really won't solve the problem. The game companies we are talking about
in large part is going to consider all games they make inaccessible to a
blind gamer since they target a sighted audience. The games that are
som
phy, ;D.
>
> Beware the grue!
>
> Dark.
>
> - Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list"
> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
>
hey! that would be the perfect law if everyone would put it into all their
licenses!
Josh
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 2:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing access
Hi Shaun,
I can see many problems with what you suggest. First, a Pro Game company
is highly unlikely to turn over pieces of their game source code to an
amature blind developer. There are licensing and security issues
involved. Second, most if not all of the blind devs are hardly up to the
tas
Hmm. Sorry I haven't posted much in these past few, but I've been busy. I
think the only way to really go about this is by doing what fs has done with
pocket pc. Instead of creating something which is completely blind friendly,
Freedom Scientific has introduced the pac mate which, while limited
"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> And if we couldn't pay the fine? then what? Most of us don't have that
> kind
> of money.
>
> Josh
>
>
> ___
> Gam
I think the world of courts and lawyers is the dumbest thing ever, I wish
the person who dreamed that stupid stuff up never existed.
Josh
___
Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit
http
And if we couldn't pay the fine? then what? Most of us don't have that kind
of money.
Josh
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Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> Hi all,
> I have read all postings regarding this and time for me to chime up here.
>
> I don't mean to put words in Dennis's mouth but I dont think he meant
> "fo
Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Gamers Discussion list'"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> To whom it may concern,
> I am writing to explain my earlier not
SHAUN EVERISS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> Maybe its not all lost, although how this would work I don't rightly know.
> First there would need to be a standa
copyright. it's all down to copyright here.
star wars, star trek, and other things like that... if we're caught, we may
be in trouble. not with the companies, but with the law.
regards,
aaron
___
Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org
To unsubscrib
d thing too).
sorry for the minor wrant here.
Beware the Grue!
Dark.
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> Hi
al Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> Hi Dark,
> Yes, I think challenging some of the laws, hard to do, is one of the
> only ways of
Hi Shaun,
The problem is the accessibility has to come from the game's core
commonly called the engine. If a game engine supports only stereo than
there is absolutely no way to add something like 3D audio without having
the original source code for the game. If an engine does not have SAPI
supp
Hi Bryan,
Yeah, that word could is a very big word indeed. Thankfully, STFC has
been out quite a while now, and noone from Paramount has ever contacted
me about it. However, there is always that chanse they do find out about
it, and decide to act nasty about it. However, my guess is that since i
Hi Bryan,
Right. I am sure any accessible dev could bring such a case to USA
Today, New York Times, or any other major publication in hopes of
getting comunity support. It could create a fire storm, a mud slinging
contest, but in the end bottom line there could be a number that will
say, "sorry
Hi Dark,
Yes, I think challenging some of the laws, hard to do, is one of the
only ways of making any headway.
I am all for copyrights, but sometimes they tend to stomp out those who
don't have an equal or near equal access to that content.
As far as games go I'd like something put in to the exis
Hi Josh,
Yes, I did, and we ended up not talking about accessible games but
market potential and money. Which was all they cared about. The Lucas
Licenseing department isn't there to discuss weather all their products
should be accessible, but just a bunch of lawyers trying to get the best
deal
Hi Josh,
Quote
how could it still be copyright infringement?
End quote
Short answer anytime you do anything that is outside of the end user
license agreement that the company has not signed off on or agreed to is
copyright infringement.
It doesn't matter if you gave it away for free or not to so
Hi Josh,
Honestly allot of it comes down to how the end user license agreement,
(ula,) is written. I've seen some on one extreme that states clearly go
ahead and do what you want to the other extreme which says any use of
characters, sounds, graphics, for free or commercial use is absolutely
ou
: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
I agree with what has been said here. Its also the cost. Major games
companies would have to spend a fair bit on making games accessible. It
won't ever happen if it does then I'll be surprised.
-Origin
Maybe its not all lost, although how this would work I don't rightly know.
First there would need to be a standard for accessibility simular to other
standards that are released by other orgs for accessibility , eg web 2
accessibility standard.
Or something like that.
What I thought could happen
t;
>- Original Message -
>From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Gamers Discussion list"
>Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
>
>
>> so if we can't get the developers to make their g
I just wandered if we are doing it all wrong.
What about this approach.
Instead of companies writing or making their games accessible, what about those
that can writing interface modifications for them.
I wander if all the company that does the game needs to give the rights to the
devs to mod the
Hi all,
I have read all postings regarding this and time for me to chime up here.
I don't mean to put words in Dennis's mouth but I dont think he meant
"force" butfor all of us who wish to have our voice heard to speak up and
contact the main stream developers that there might be a market for th
versions
>with audio game maker?
>
>Josh
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Liam Erven" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Gamers Discussion list"
>Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:25 PM
>Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
>
>
Labyrinth and Warner Bros.
for this game.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> but you already tried getting
ing the basic concept and
not the characters or any of that. But you have to be real careful about
this sort of thing.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:
Because you're copying someone else's work?
- Original Message -
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> but only blind people would
As far as legal issues go, I do believe there is some mileage to campeign
for changes here, sinse some laws are clearly and simply unfair.
For instance, one charity which reccords audio books here in the Uk has to
borrow books directly from their public library. while their local library
will f
Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 17 February 2007 19:37
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
Hi Che,
Exactly, my point as well. Not only do we not have the numbers to force
the issue we are also sometimes asking the impossible from a programming
standpoint.
Sometimes these
o: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> because that's copyright infringement
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Dis
but you already tried getting ahold of companies to ask them for permission
and they seemed not to care. didn't you?
Josh
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 3:43 PM
TED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
>
> Hi all,
> Sorry, I am very late to this party, but you really must understand
> there is no way we can force developers much less game compan
Hi Josh,
It is simply because the companies have legal copyrights over the
media, (graphics story and sounds,) of the games they create. Using
that media content could, (I repete could,) land a accessible game
developer in hot water because steeling or using copyrighted game
content without p
because that's copyright infringement
- Original Message -
From: "Josh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
> so if we can't get the developers
Hi Bryan,
Right. Not only that games aren't as easy to adapt as other forms of
media such as telivision and books. Books is an easy thing to adapt as
all you need is a reader to read it, record it, and put it on tape, cd,
or other audio medium. TV shows is the same. The technology is there for
Hi Che,
Exactly, my point as well. Not only do we not have the numbers to force
the issue we are also sometimes asking the impossible from a programming
standpoint.
Sometimes these games are 3D not just in graphics and sound, but in fact
the entire levels are 3D.
I'd like to hold up the AQ, Audi
sion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility
>I get asked the same questions, and what you said is right on. The fact is
> is that our market just isn't big enough. I few years ago I was on the
> phone with a korg represe
When is agm coming out?
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bryan Peterson
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:02 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
Well, hope all goes well. My
say it's a
lost cause, but I'm not losing any sleep over whether or not I'll be able to
play the next big release.
- Original Message -
From: "Thomas Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:
Hi all,
Sorry, I am very late to this party, but you really must understand
there is no way we can force developers much less game companies like
activision, Nintendo, Sega, Microsoft Game Studios, to do anything.
Especially, since we are a minority group with very little cash
potential. In f
> You know, there are a few blind people who have never heard of accessible
> games.
My point exactly. If you increase awareness you'll increase the size of the
market and once you've got thousands of people buying games and not just a
few dozen, larger developers will start to take notice. There
atistics so you guys
can get more funding and put more of the features you wanted in there.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "AudioGames.net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyss
em less seriously.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "david" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> You know, there are a few blind p
l busy (re)programming a few parts.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bryan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Gamers Discussion list"
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or n
Message -
From: "Bryan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> We have a better chance of persuading mainstream devs of the value of
t; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> Funding from us isn't what's going to determine whether or not AGM is
> further developed. It's the f
get us anything but a bad
reputation, and the reputation of the blind in some quarters probably could
be better as it is.
Bryan and Jennie
- Original Message -
From: "aaron danvers-jukes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, Februa
n list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> If they put a paypal button on their website I'l gladly donate all that I
> can.
>
> Josh
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Br
i have to agree with liam and che on this one. make suggestions, tell
themwhy you want it accessible, but do not, and i repeat, do *not*, use
force.
regards,
aaron
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If they put a paypal button on their website I'l gladly donate all that I
can.
Josh
- Original Message -
From: "Bryan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing acc
You can't force accessibility, for the reasons mentioned by Che and because
"accessible" is a subjective term. What is accessible to you may not be
accessible others. I make games for blind and partially sighted people but
they won't work with a Braille display so people who are Deaf-Blind can't
pl
, February 16, 2007 10:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> and when audio game maker comes out I'm sure we'll see the number of games
> dramatically go up as audio game maker will make it real easy to make
> games.
>
> Josh
>
to be honest, I can't see any effort to force a company to do anything will
be too successful anyway, from personal experience (some of it rather
nasty), accessibility is a matter of compromise on both sides.
and obviously, as someone who's at least played almost every game in the
audio gaming
k bad.
- Original Message -
From: "Che" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> I for one don't think we have any business trying to force companies to
t: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:44 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no deal
> I for one don't think we have any business trying to force companies to
> make their games accessible.
> First of all, for the vast majority of games, it simply cannot be done,
> it
i would love to find out how to make games yes you do have a point on this
- Original Message -
From: "Che" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Gamers Discussion list"
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2007 1:44 AM
Subject: [Audyssey] Forcing accessibility was: deal or no
I for one don't think we have any business trying to force companies to
make their games accessible.
First of all, for the vast majority of games, it simply cannot be done, it
would be like trying to force the car manufacturers to make their
automobiles accessible.
Secondly, it places a bl
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