Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi tom. Well that is a pest regarding the harpies flight, though on the pluss side having the ability to include vertical combat elements in a 2D game would be highly needed in the genesis engine I think if you were planning on creating games similar to mega man, castlevania etc. So it might be a good exercise for the future anyway. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Charles That's not bad at all and probably more tight then what I had originally thought. Perhaps It could be a section of two or three folks and their experience and thoughts on game development. And this would provide a counterpoint to the Chatting with creaters section of the mag. So we take game x and set up both a developer and then the end users thoughts? - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed The bio is interesting. My thought about an article on the history of gaming for the blind is this: I think this article could be a lengthy one, and an interesting one as well. Wouldn't it be a cool insertion, in parts, into consecutive issues of the Audyssey magazines? It would be a good material source, and would also be entertaining for the old and new gamers alike, whether bringing back memories or providing background info. Hmm. How about a conduit for input from readers? That could become a regular article. Gamers could give recollections, game producers could do so as well. Something along the lines of Justin's recent podcast, in text form, from different game producers on what went on during the production and or testing of a particular game? The fun stuff, the frustrations, the emotions during game production progress? Basically, the behind the scenes enlightenment. Concerning the testing aspects, names would, if the legal contract is set up that way, be avoided. Well, your little bio crept into your message, and I guess my thoughts for material for Audyssey came from my original thought. I hope material for the mag comes from my ideas? Constructive feedback is appreciated. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Shaun, I want to start by thanking you for the audio games history, I actually find it very informative and useful. I like having some idea of how things went in the past, so I can get a better idea of how they will likely change now, and in the future. I think it would be an excellent idea for several of the old timers to collaborate on a detailed audio games history. With everyone working together, I'm sure the time line of things could be fine tuned, and many specific details and events would start to surface that had been long forgotten. I'm not really familiar with your phrase hack it yourself, so you'd probably have to define that for me. I would have thought it was the same as opensource devs, but you seem to have differentiated them in your last post, so I'm not quite sure of the meaning you intended. I can't really comment about being the fastest developer or not. When I was just starting high school (1995 or 1996 I believe), I began teaching myself programming so that I could make little games and things. When I had high school programming classes, I was the expert who would know more than the professor so I'd help my friends with their work and we'd spend class playing my latest game rather than working on the day's lesson, haha. I went to the University of Michigan and got degrees in Computer science and Mechanical engineering, but I have to say that 95% of what they taught me I had already learned myself before going. All in all, it was a huge waste of time and money just to earn the piece of paper that says degree. I've always been the stubborn person who was slow to change my programming habits when those around me did. I always focused more on the end result, and how I could accomplish the same thing in a quarter of the time, by not changing my methods over to whatever was currently popular at the time. In different situations, being stubborn like that is a problem, but for the most part it has benefited me. Since it seems I've started writing a bio of myself, lol, I'll say a bit more. I'm sure there are people floating around who assume I only know Visual basic 6.0, since that is what I've written my audio games in. For the record, I do know C++, C#, Java, Objective-C, and a few of the smaller ones they make you learn as you go through college. In my stubbornness I just use the one I want to, depending on the task at hand. Oh crud, I'm sure I've just summoned a barrage of comments from other programmers haha! I've been programming pretty much every day since 1995, on all manner of personal projects. My specialty is actually vision systems, which seems a little ironic since I'm also writing audio games! For those who might not know
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Well I'd like to say that I think even though it's older, the side scroller has loads the VI can do with it yet. A couple of the old games would be and I hope I'm not wrong here would be say Joust, Donkey Kong, QBert, Mousetrap, Asteroids, [Unfortunately that was happening but the dev died out. Anyone able to contact him?] and many many more I'm not trying to say we shouldn't do our best to keep up, but there's so much that the blind community hasn't seen before in an accessible format. Who cares if it is a fun game from say 15 years ago. Myself my time was before the NES. In fact the last ones I can honestly say I saw were from the Colecovision. Awesome graphics for the time. I think any and all devs are great for taking the time to take the time and contribute the best job they can. Take care Ron --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories- Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Possibly, the game developer could post to the audyssey list, readers comment, and the mag's editor selects the cream of the crop for publication. I'm not sure about this idea, but just thinking out loud. You know what a flood of Emails a topic can create. (grin) --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Ron Schamerhorn blindwon...@cogeco.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 6:14 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories- Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Charles That's not bad at all and probably more tight then what I had originally thought. Perhaps It could be a section of two or three folks and their experience and thoughts on game development. And this would provide a counterpoint to the Chatting with creaters section of the mag. So we take game x and set up both a developer and then the end users thoughts? - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed The bio is interesting. My thought about an article on the history of gaming for the blind is this: I think this article could be a lengthy one, and an interesting one as well. Wouldn't it be a cool insertion, in parts, into consecutive issues of the Audyssey magazines? It would be a good material source, and would also be entertaining for the old and new gamers alike, whether bringing back memories or providing background info. Hmm. How about a conduit for input from readers? That could become a regular article. Gamers could give recollections, game producers could do so as well. Something along the lines of Justin's recent podcast, in text form, from different game producers on what went on during the production and or testing of a particular game? The fun stuff, the frustrations, the emotions during game production progress? Basically, the behind the scenes enlightenment. Concerning the testing aspects, names would, if the legal contract is set up that way, be avoided. Well, your little bio crept into your message, and I guess my thoughts for material for Audyssey came from my original thought. I hope material for the mag comes from my ideas? Constructive feedback is appreciated. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Shaun, I want to start by thanking you for the audio games history, I actually find it very informative and useful. I like having some idea of how things went in the past, so I can get a better idea of how they will likely change now, and in the future. I think it would be an excellent idea for several of the old timers to collaborate on a detailed audio games history. With everyone working together, I'm sure the time line of things could be fine tuned, and many specific details and events would start to surface that had been long forgotten. I'm not really familiar with your phrase hack it yourself, so you'd probably have to define that for me. I would have thought it was the same as opensource devs, but you seem to have differentiated them in your last post, so I'm not quite sure of the meaning you intended. I can't really comment about being the fastest developer or not. When I was just starting high school (1995 or 1996 I believe), I began teaching myself programming so that I could make little games and things. When I had high school programming classes, I was the expert who would know more than the professor so I'd help my friends with their work and we'd spend class playing my latest game rather than working on the day's lesson, haha. I went to the University of Michigan and got degrees in Computer science and Mechanical engineering, but I have to say that 95% of what they taught me I had already learned myself before going. All in all, it was a huge waste of time and money just to earn the piece of paper that says degree. I've always been the stubborn person who was slow to change my programming habits when those around me did. I always focused more on the end result, and how I could accomplish the same thing in a quarter of the time, by not changing my methods over to whatever was currently popular at the time. In different situations, being stubborn like that is a problem, but for the most part it has benefited me. Since it seems I've started writing a bio of myself, lol, I'll say a bit more. I'm sure there are people floating around who
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. HOwever, the Harpies are still not working right. I was hoping ot release MOTA beta 19 today, but that is still one bug holding the game back. I might disable the vertical combat feature until I can nail down the bug. Actually, I think I know what is wrong, and it has more to do with the fact all the game logic was specifically designed for an 3d FPS shooter, and it can't operate correctly in a 2d only environment. Thus I'll have to create different functions to handle this issue. On 5/22/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Actually Tom, i rediscovered rick dangerous recently sinse I found an online version of the original game using flash that I could manage to play, which is why I thought of the game. Horribly difficult with the instant death traps, but good fun all the same, there's a pretty nice artical on wikipedia about it as well if you want details. there was also a sequal, but I have never played that. Glad to hear about the mota harpies, this is actually something I've been thinking now for a while that would be a good addition to mota along with the analogue jumps. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Ron, Agreed. There are a number of classic 2d platformers that haven't been explored before. As for Asteroids that is definitely something on my todo list. Although, my Asteroids version will be a bit more advanced than the original. One reason I say that is now that I have a fully qualified 3d game engine Asteroids is exactly the kind of game that could put it to use. Outerspace, like everything else, is 3d, and since there are no mazes etc it should be fairly easy enough to get to grips of flying a spacecraft around in a 3d environment. Of course, there will be massive Asteroids floating around you will have to avoid hitting and the ocational UFO trying to blow you out of space. However, the game will be more or less like a space flying simulation than the classic arcade game. At least, that is the plan. Cheers! On 5/23/11, Ron Schamerhorn blindwon...@cogeco.ca wrote: Well I'd like to say that I think even though it's older, the side scroller has loads the VI can do with it yet. A couple of the old games would be and I hope I'm not wrong here would be say Joust, Donkey Kong, QBert, Mousetrap, Asteroids, [Unfortunately that was happening but the dev died out. Anyone able to contact him?] and many many more I'm not trying to say we shouldn't do our best to keep up, but there's so much that the blind community hasn't seen before in an accessible format. Who cares if it is a fun game from say 15 years ago. Myself my time was before the NES. In fact the last ones I can honestly say I saw were from the Colecovision. Awesome graphics for the time. I think any and all devs are great for taking the time to take the time and contribute the best job they can. Take care Ron --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Tom. Well my dart suggestion was based parimarily upon game mechanics rather than implicit trap logic. The difficulty in avoiding a bouncing skull is that you need to either jump over it when it is on the ground in front of you, or sneak under it when it is above your head. If for audio reasons skulls in montizumas revenge couldn't be made to bounce, this leaves something of a vacuume, sinse spiders, snakes and rolling skulls can all be jumpved over, but nothing can attack you while in mid air. So obviously to preserve game difficulty and insure a variety of enemies we need an airial trap, and shooting darts just struck me as a logical one. how they may work, pressure plates or whatever, no idea, but I was primiarily thinking only of the game there, and being as montizumas return was not particularly realistic in explaining it's traps and monsters origins I didn't worry in this case. I'm not sure if you ever played an old game called rick dangerous (it mostly had releases on old computers like the amigar, atari st and ms doss), from the early 90'swhich featured exploring various temples much like montizumas return, and many indiana jones style traps like dropping boulders and swinging on ropes. It also had darts which fired out when you got to certain points, indeed many you needed to duck, or jump very quickly to get through. There was not a particular reason for the darts, other than them being an airial trap in the game. Indeed rick dangerous was in some ways like a more advanced monti, one hit death, extremely difficult traps and enemies, but an on going story which had you fighting evil criminal syndicate through temples rather the way indi fought the nazis. You also had a gun with limited amo, and some bundles of dynamite that could be used for both killing your enemies and blasting rocks out of your path. Actually it was a pretty fun game, especially because everytime you or someone else got killed you let out a very loud waaah! which was hilarious! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Dark, Hmmm...I never played Rick Dangerous. In fact, had never heard of it until you mentioned it. That said it does sound like a game I would have liked. At any rate you have a point. Without the bouncing skulls there wouldn't have been a vertical element of attack. I'd have to add some sort of flying enemy such as a bat to have you look out ffor enemies above you as well as on the ground. This I.E. is something I've finally added to MOTA beta 19 as you now have to aim Angela's gun up to shoot the harpies as the dive and attack you from above. On 5/22/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Well my dart suggestion was based parimarily upon game mechanics rather than implicit trap logic. The difficulty in avoiding a bouncing skull is that you need to either jump over it when it is on the ground in front of you, or sneak under it when it is above your head. If for audio reasons skulls in montizumas revenge couldn't be made to bounce, this leaves something of a vacuume, sinse spiders, snakes and rolling skulls can all be jumpved over, but nothing can attack you while in mid air. So obviously to preserve game difficulty and insure a variety of enemies we need an airial trap, and shooting darts just struck me as a logical one. how they may work, pressure plates or whatever, no idea, but I was primiarily thinking only of the game there, and being as montizumas return was not particularly realistic in explaining it's traps and monsters origins I didn't worry in this case. I'm not sure if you ever played an old game called rick dangerous (it mostly had releases on old computers like the amigar, atari st and ms doss), from the early 90'swhich featured exploring various temples much like montizumas return, and many indiana jones style traps like dropping boulders and swinging on ropes. It also had darts which fired out when you got to certain points, indeed many you needed to duck, or jump very quickly to get through. There was not a particular reason for the darts, other than them being an airial trap in the game. Indeed rick dangerous was in some ways like a more advanced monti, one hit death, extremely difficult traps and enemies, but an on going story which had you fighting evil criminal syndicate through temples rather the way indi fought the nazis. You also had a gun with limited amo, and some bundles of dynamite that could be used for both killing your enemies and blasting rocks out of your path. Actually it was a pretty fun game, especially because everytime you or someone else got killed you let out a very loud waaah! which was hilarious! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Actually Tom, i rediscovered rick dangerous recently sinse I found an online version of the original game using flash that I could manage to play, which is why I thought of the game. Horribly difficult with the instant death traps, but good fun all the same, there's a pretty nice artical on wikipedia about it as well if you want details. there was also a sequal, but I have never played that. Glad to hear about the mota harpies, this is actually something I've been thinking now for a while that would be a good addition to mota along with the analogue jumps. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
well... You may have to use the mouse, but can that still be accessible? Also, I would actually be interested to see your combat game. God knows we need some free ones. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed First off, this is the second time I've written this post so it will probably be of lower quality this time around. My browser decided to glitch and I lost a very lost post, that was probably a full page if not a page and a half. As one of the new guys in the community, relatively speaking, I debated even commenting on this topic. I wasn't around for the golden era so my perspective is extremely limited compared to those who have been around long enough to see the bigger picture. That being said, I don't doubt things have slowed down with audio game development to some degree, I believe that is normal. I do, also, agree with Dark that a well made game can still use old ideas. Recently I assembled a list of the audio games and tools I have released. I was honestly shocked by how short that list was! I kept thinking I had left things out, and it took me a while to accept that the list was accurate. The reason I felt like I had done more is because for every game/tool I've released, I have 2 that were only partially finished. While developing a new game, if I discover existing games that use the same general idea, I will get discouraged. The same is true when I read that someone else is currently developing a game with a similar style. In those cases, I will just push my project aside and start work on another. Part of the way through that design, there's always a chance the same thing will happen again. Even if only half of the other developers are like me, that is a lot of developers holding off on projects because they are searching for a unique idea. Sure, if we stuck with it our games would be different in some ways, but they are still similar to something already out there. I always ask myself the question, Why waste time when I could be making something totally unique? Over the years, many audio games have been created, and they represent many different game styles. For anyone trying not to repeat an existing game, this means our options are getting smaller and smaller all the time. New ideas are tricky, and they take longer to develop than the games based on old ideas. It is only natural for things to slow down because of this. I believe that this would still be true even if the old classic game companies were still around. They probably rode out the market until the trends started to change. It was a smart move on their part, if that is what they did. New ideas also run the risk of being rejected. I released Daytona to be unique, and many people played it, but also many more didn't even care to try it. That's not meant to put anyone down, but it is just a reality. The more new and unique you make a game, the more likely it is that you've narrowed down on your potential player base. For this very reason I set my combat game aside because I didn't have faith that my player base would be large enough to help me support the ongoing server costs. I'm also fairly certain my next Daytona game will be completely passed over by a sizable portion of the community simply because it requires the mouse to play. I built Lunimals to be as close to standard as I could, and I'm sure its recent popularity speaks loudly in support of my theory. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Tom. i agree with respect to blind gamers' experience of what graphical games use as concepts, sinse obviously if you cannot see all the elements of a game like mario brothers say, you cannot know how these work mechanically and thus attempting to create an accessible version will always miss concepts, however I'm less certain on the experience front. I've seen too many freeware developers of indi pc games to start believing that you need several millions, a big bunch of programmers and qualifications out of the ears to create good games. Obviously resources help, but I'm less convinced they are a necessity, and as already mentioned experience just takes time and work to acquire anyway. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Dark, Maybe, but I do know also that the more complex the game the more difficult it is to create. Sometimes attempting to add an advanced concept to the game, if not correctly implamented, will cause the game to break. For example, remember back during beta 17 it was you or someone else who braught up the subject of analog jumping. Well, I added it to beta 18, and while a bit buggy it seemed to work fine with DirectX. Well, for beta 19 I recompiled the game with the cross-platform engine that is mainly based on SDL and the analog jumping caused so many problems I litterally had to take it out to get the game remotely stable again. What I mean by that with SDL the analog jump system turned out to have a number of side effects I didn't know about like if you jumped over a fire pit as soon as Angela landed she'd start walking or running and you couldn't stop her. She'd litterally continue running until she hit a wall, ran into a trap, or would run right off a ledge and kill herself. It was quite difficult to use, because it didn't happen all the time but often enough to maret removal for the time being. Basically, the moral of the story is although sometimes I and other VI developers would like to incorperate some of these more mainstream concepts like analog jumping there may be technical limitations or issues preventing him/her from adding it. I'm certainly not saying that adding an analog jump system etc is impossible, I'm sure it is, but merely that since I've never done it before I came up with a poor design that apparently worked with DirectX but totally went haywire with SDL. I'm sure new game developers have the same sorts of issues with trying to program similar advanced features or ideas when trying to figure out the proper logic and functionality. Cheers! On 5/21/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. i agree with respect to blind gamers' experience of what graphical games use as concepts, sinse obviously if you cannot see all the elements of a game like mario brothers say, you cannot know how these work mechanically and thus attempting to create an accessible version will always miss concepts, however I'm less certain on the experience front. I've seen too many freeware developers of indi pc games to start believing that you need several millions, a big bunch of programmers and qualifications out of the ears to create good games. Obviously resources help, but I'm less convinced they are a necessity, and as already mentioned experience just takes time and work to acquire anyway. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Tom. I'd personally view analogue jumps as a very! complex feature indeed, where as say adding something like an extra arrow trap in an otherwise 2D game to give a vertical danger would seem less so, though i do take the point. At the same time though, I don't think this is particularly an excuse for developers to only stick to simple games, just perhaps a reason why certain trade offs need to be made occasionally. Look at the Mota switches. We have traded the extra fidly complexity, both of programming and of design, it would take for multiple switch types, but instead have other forms of trap such as the vanishing flaws to handle. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Dark, Right. However, like I said earlier I think a lot of it boils down to either the developer doesn't know how to add this or that feature, or they simply haven't experienced it before and thus never thought of it. I confess the idea of having a dart shoot you while jumping never occured to me either. That is why end user suggestions are helpful is maybe someone else will have an idea you didn't think of yourself. For instance, take the poison darts in Mysteries of the Ancients. They are pretty much borrowed straight out of Tomb Raider. What I mean by that is there are hidden pressure plates in the floor and if you step on one Angela will git stuck good with a poisoned dart/arrow. However, if you can jump the pressure switch she'll avoid that trap. I don't know how jumping would trigger that kind of dart. On 5/21/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I'd personally view analogue jumps as a very! complex feature indeed, where as say adding something like an extra arrow trap in an otherwise 2D game to give a vertical danger would seem less so, though i do take the point. At the same time though, I don't think this is particularly an excuse for developers to only stick to simple games, just perhaps a reason why certain trade offs need to be made occasionally. Look at the Mota switches. We have traded the extra fidly complexity, both of programming and of design, it would take for multiple switch types, but instead have other forms of trap such as the vanishing flaws to handle. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Well I was in new zealand. I got my first net enabled system in 1995, and my first modem in 1996-1997. Yes I knew of bbs stuff being round but it was all us based never here. At 12:18 a.m. 20/05/2011, you wrote: Hi Shaun, You forgot, but probably did not dial it up, but in the early nineties through at least the mid nineties the place to find accessible games and other accessible utility programmes etc was the Blink Link BBS in Pittsburgh run by Willie Wilson. You know that was back when the BBSs were more popular than the Internet and Email was through the fidoNet. And the BBSs had planet connect so that when I up loaded a new game to the BBS PC Ohio it would get shared all around the world with other BBSs. BFN Jim - FOR SYSOP USE ONLY - Do not write below this line. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Charles, Um...just curious but are you classifying JD as a sidescroller? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 8:10 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Are Judgment Day, Super Liam, and the betas of MOTA the same? Even though they are side scrollers, no. This is why I don't think that the attitude of not creating a side scroller because they already exist is not the way to look at what to produce. I have an idea for a bowling game. How many of them exist for blind gamers to play with absolutely not one bit of sighted assistance from start to finish? Should I produce it? Should I get together with a programmer and share the rewards because I don't know programming? Or should I forget it because of what already exists. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Dark, That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had much experience with games outside this community and maybe what his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from played out. As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either. Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun, Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games. Cheers! On 5/19/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. You are right about side scrollers. thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the issue comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style games. IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order to wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien spaceships or whatever. ditto with boppit or simon style games. If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or continuous plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of the game can be intrinsically different. Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and sfx. By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, he could create a game more than different enough from the original for people to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves physical exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of gameplay elements. Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were included. But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even though the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different to play. As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers produced in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you. Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become interested just from the preview. A side scroller set in the jungle? isn't that a bit similar to Tarzan jr? or Q9? heck no! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Jeremy. I personally wasn't thinking markitability at all, in fact such things are pretty much not my concern usuall. However, I can think of a fair few examples where similar games have been created simply by people who wanted to show their superiority in level design and working with an established concept. Take for instance one of my favourite freeware windows projects, T2002. the developers built an engine to run the amigar platform game turrican on a pc, with original music and graphics. Then however they released a level editer all for nothing. the editer has sinse been used by some very tallented designers to create over 150 extra levels for the game, all with different layout and structure, many with unique graphics and music, but all using the same Turrican gameplay and weaponry. This is not to do with markitability, sinse everything is freeware, simply it is people's love of the concept of the Turrican idea, and their desire to take it to new places, indeed many of the new levels use far higher quality sfx, music and graphics than were ever possible with the original game, or were included with the original T2002 release. If I personally ever get to the point of developing, it will not stop me if someone has created a similar game, provided what I am doing is absolutely my own design and idea. Take for instance the fps example. Were I to create an fps, it would have my! plot, my! weaponry, and my! characters, as well as levels and puzles designed by me. this to my mind would be more than enough to make it a unique game for people to play, and would give me personally enough satisfaction to create, indeed if I had the skills and the gma engine was stil available this is something I'd actually considder doing. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Tom. Your knolidge of the early arcade games is probably better than mine, sinse the sort of games I grew up playing in the arcades were things like double dragon, ninja turtles, mortal combat and street fighter 2. One issue I have noticed though, is when adapting an arcade game, some developers sacrifice gameplay complexities that differenciate the game from others for reasons of audio. Take Liams duckhunt game. the original duckhunt had objects moving at not only faster speed, but any angle, and you had to targit not just left and right, but up and down as well. because though Liam missed completely the vertical dimention sinse that's harder to show in audio, the game plays much like space invaders, where as originally it wouldn't. Actually I do rather wish Liam had inserted some vertical targiting, even if this meant altering the nes sfx of the ducks or inserting some extra sound such as wind to show vertical position, simply because this would've made the game less like the usual left/right targiting affair. Pipe is another one. In the graphical version, it's not just a matter of physically scrolling through a number of pipes one of which will fit, but actually logically working out amount of space available vs the pipes you have in a very quick manner, but once again, this concept was removed from the audio version. I think that is my real objection to the arcade genre, that sinse the amount of information possible to show in audio is less than in a graphical game, games have been simplified down to something of a baseline. Take something like asteroids. Yes, it may be possible to show rocks blowing up into smaller rocks and your spaceship avoiding them in audio, but in no sense could you easily show a huge screen with your ship in the center with a 360 degree field of fire all around you and asteroids coming from all angles. I would be reasonably willing to bet that were a developer to create an audio asteroids, one of the first design changes they'd make would be to reduce the game to only a left/right field of fire to save on audio. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production- Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Not really. I put the game there by accident. Oops? --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 5:47 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production- Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Charles, Um...just curious but are you classifying JD as a sidescroller? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 8:10 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Are Judgment Day, Super Liam, and the betas of MOTA the same? Even though they are side scrollers, no. This is why I don't think that the attitude of not creating a side scroller because they already exist is not the way to look at what to produce. I have an idea for a bowling game. How many of them exist for blind gamers to play with absolutely not one bit of sighted assistance from start to finish? Should I produce it? Should I get together with a programmer and share the rewards because I don't know programming? Or should I forget it because of what already exists. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Dark, That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had much experience with games outside this community and maybe what his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from played out. As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either. Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun, Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games. Cheers! On 5/19/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. You are right about side scrollers. thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the issue comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style games. IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order to wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien spaceships or whatever. ditto with boppit or simon style games. If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or continuous plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of the game can be intrinsically different. Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and sfx. By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, he could create a game more than different enough from the original for people to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves physical exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of gameplay elements. Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were included. But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even though the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different to play. As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers produced in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you. Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become interested just from the preview. A side scroller set in the jungle? isn't that a bit similar to Tarzan jr? or Q9? heck no! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
As I've said, I do understand that some developers don't care if an idea is already out there, and I even understand why they feel that way. My earlier statement was just to let everyone know that I personally don't do thing that way, and I assume I'm not alone in that way of thinking. As a good example, I have just removed my NES duck hunt recreation from my list of games to make ROFL! I hadn't really done much coding on it anyways, so I'm not bothered to toss it aside. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Dark, Yeah, I do see your point. A lot of the arcade games we have were simplified for practical reasons. With Montezuma's Revenge, for example, I did simplify things for very practical reasons. The one big one being its hard to actually convey certain information through an audio only medium. For instance, the skulls. In my version the skulls only moved left right, and you had to jump over them. There were certainly that kind of skull in the original, but I totally left out the bouncing skulls. I.E. the ones that were bouncing up and down. Those were trickier because you had to run underneath them without them landing on you and killing you instantly. I could never figure out a logical way to tell you when a skull was up in the air and when it would be safe to run under it before it landed. Yeah, yeah, people will say use pitch changes etc, but then the skulls sounded really weird and the speed was so fast even with pitch changes you couldn't keep up. Trust me, I tried it and I could never figure out a way to identify how and when to run under a bouncing skull so left it out. I think that other games lack features of the original mainstream concepts for similar reasons. Its difficult, if not impossible, to convey everything to a blind user through audio. Therefore we end up with a sort of half-way game that is maybe 80% like the original idea, but lacks a few advanced or more complex game play elements here and there. However, as far as Asteroids goes I don't think that type of game would have to be converted to a 2d platformer at all. If anything else now that I have Genesis 3D and Philip has BGT it should be relatively easy to create a 3d Asteroids game with asteroids in true 3d space. I.E. AAsteroids above and below the player as well as left, right, and behind you. Now, that would be something worth playing. As an arcade game it could get pretty advanced in navigation, math, and Physics and might double as a type of flight simulator as well as an arcade game. Cheers! On 5/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Your knolidge of the early arcade games is probably better than mine, sinse the sort of games I grew up playing in the arcades were things like double dragon, ninja turtles, mortal combat and street fighter 2. One issue I have noticed though, is when adapting an arcade game, some developers sacrifice gameplay complexities that differenciate the game from others for reasons of audio. Take Liams duckhunt game. the original duckhunt had objects moving at not only faster speed, but any angle, and you had to targit not just left and right, but up and down as well. because though Liam missed completely the vertical dimention sinse that's harder to show in audio, the game plays much like space invaders, where as originally it wouldn't. Actually I do rather wish Liam had inserted some vertical targiting, even if this meant altering the nes sfx of the ducks or inserting some extra sound such as wind to show vertical position, simply because this would've made the game less like the usual left/right targiting affair. Pipe is another one. In the graphical version, it's not just a matter of physically scrolling through a number of pipes one of which will fit, but actually logically working out amount of space available vs the pipes you have in a very quick manner, but once again, this concept was removed from the audio version. I think that is my real objection to the arcade genre, that sinse the amount of information possible to show in audio is less than in a graphical game, games have been simplified down to something of a baseline. Take something like asteroids. Yes, it may be possible to show rocks blowing up into smaller rocks and your spaceship avoiding them in audio, but in no sense could you easily show a huge screen with your ship in the center with a 360 degree field of fire all around you and asteroids coming from all angles. I would be reasonably willing to bet that were a developer to create an audio asteroids, one of the first design changes they'd make would be to reduce the game to only a left/right field of fire to save on audio. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Charles, Ummm...Judgment Day is not a side-scroller. Its a virtical shooter in the style of SpaceInvaders etc. Cheers! On 5/19/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Are Judgment Day, Super Liam, and the betas of MOTA the same? Even though they are side scrollers, no. This is why I don't think that the attitude of not creating a side scroller because they already exist is not the way to look at what to produce. I have an idea for a bowling game. How many of them exist for blind gamers to play with absolutely not one bit of sighted assistance from start to finish? Should I produce it? Should I get together with a programmer and share the rewards because I don't know programming? Or should I forget it because of what already exists. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Dark, That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had much experience with games outside this community and maybe what his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from played out. As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either. Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun, Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games. Cheers! On 5/19/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. You are right about side scrollers. thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the issue comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style games. IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order to wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien spaceships or whatever. ditto with boppit or simon style games. If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or continuous plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of the game can be intrinsically different. Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and sfx. By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, he could create a game more than different enough from the original for people to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves physical exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of gameplay elements. Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were included. But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even though the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different to play. As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers produced in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you. Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become interested just from the preview. A side scroller set in the jungle? isn't that a bit similar to Tarzan jr? or Q9? heck no! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi tom. I'm not saying that simplification in audio isn't needed sinse obviously the amount of information you can display in audio is much smaller, however there are occasions I feel where a developer has simplified things rather too much thus leading to a fairly basic left/right sterrio targiting affair. Myself, what I'd prefer to see is instead of developers saying well concept x isn't possible and simplifying the game, adding something extra in instead which adds another layer of complexity to the game. Say for instance in montizuma's revenge, if you decided bouncing skulls weren't workable have some other form of hazard added to the game instead which you could! show in audio, and would add in an enemy or layer of complexity to the game that you were missing with the skull movements. for instance, have firing horizontal arrows which would hit you either when jumping in the air or when climbing up and down ropes if you didn't time things correctly. Like the bouncing skulls these would add an element of danger into the game which specifically targited vertical movement, but would be quite possible to show in audio. A good example of where this has been done is actually in both alien outback and troopanum. Admitting that it is not possible to have 30 or so invaders on screen at once in an audio game, developers instead made different types of ships to make life interesting, and in alien outback, gave those ships unique attacks and weaponry such as bombs. ditto with the esp pinball tables and their minigames, sinse obviously it's not possible to include quite as much in an audio table as a graphical one simply for purposes of the scan, however by including some more complex routes and gameplay changes they give a similarly tricky experience. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
One concept that I thought would be hard to convey by sound was in the beta of Montezuma's Revenge. The floating coin. It took me a minute to figure out that it was floating. I was either too high, or I was too low. Hmm. It was in the middle?? I thought that was a neat little puzzle. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Dark, Yeah, I do see your point. A lot of the arcade games we have were simplified for practical reasons. With Montezuma's Revenge, for example, I did simplify things for very practical reasons. The one big one being its hard to actually convey certain information through an audio only medium. For instance, the skulls. In my version the skulls only moved left right, and you had to jump over them. There were certainly that kind of skull in the original, but I totally left out the bouncing skulls. I.E. the ones that were bouncing up and down. Those were trickier because you had to run underneath them without them landing on you and killing you instantly. I could never figure out a logical way to tell you when a skull was up in the air and when it would be safe to run under it before it landed. Yeah, yeah, people will say use pitch changes etc, but then the skulls sounded really weird and the speed was so fast even with pitch changes you couldn't keep up. Trust me, I tried it and I could never figure out a way to identify how and when to run under a bouncing skull so left it out. I think that other games lack features of the original mainstream concepts for similar reasons. Its difficult, if not impossible, to convey everything to a blind user through audio. Therefore we end up with a sort of half-way game that is maybe 80% like the original idea, but lacks a few advanced or more complex game play elements here and there. However, as far as Asteroids goes I don't think that type of game would have to be converted to a 2d platformer at all. If anything else now that I have Genesis 3D and Philip has BGT it should be relatively easy to create a 3d Asteroids game with asteroids in true 3d space. I.E. AAsteroids above and below the player as well as left, right, and behind you. Now, that would be something worth playing. As an arcade game it could get pretty advanced in navigation, math, and Physics and might double as a type of flight simulator as well as an arcade game. Cheers! On 5/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. Your knolidge of the early arcade games is probably better than mine, sinse the sort of games I grew up playing in the arcades were things like double dragon, ninja turtles, mortal combat and street fighter 2. One issue I have noticed though, is when adapting an arcade game, some developers sacrifice gameplay complexities that differenciate the game from others for reasons of audio. Take Liams duckhunt game. the original duckhunt had objects moving at not only faster speed, but any angle, and you had to targit not just left and right, but up and down as well. because though Liam missed completely the vertical dimention sinse that's harder to show in audio, the game plays much like space invaders, where as originally it wouldn't. Actually I do rather wish Liam had inserted some vertical targiting, even if this meant altering the nes sfx of the ducks or inserting some extra sound such as wind to show vertical position, simply because this would've made the game less like the usual left/right targiting affair. Pipe is another one. In the graphical version, it's not just a matter of physically scrolling through a number of pipes one of which will fit, but actually logically working out amount of space available vs the pipes you have in a very quick manner, but once again, this concept was removed from the audio version. I think that is my real objection to the arcade genre, that sinse the amount of information possible to show in audio is less than in a graphical game, games have been simplified down to something of a baseline. Take something like asteroids. Yes, it may be possible to show rocks blowing up into smaller rocks and your spaceship avoiding them in audio, but in no sense could you easily show a huge screen with your ship in the center with a 360 degree field of fire all around you and asteroids coming from all angles. I would be reasonably willing to bet that were a developer to create an audio asteroids, one of the first design changes they'd make would be to reduce the game to only a left/right field of fire to save on audio. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
HI Jeremy, I'm confused. When did you come p with an idea for Daytona? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Kaldobsky Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Dark, I might have given the wrong impression with my last post. I didn't mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless. As you said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games. If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are claiming has happened. I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating existing game styles, but I know I do. Because this is something I know I personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the same. I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say for sure that at least some do. When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an Indiana Jones feel. Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released. If I had no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not? lol! Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make. I believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more audio games coming out. If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it. Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone would be comparing it to the existing game. Maybe you aren't a wizard, and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to form shapes. Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Charles, Floating coin? There were no floating coins in Montezuma's Revenge. There were floating gems you had to jump up and catch. Some times you had to swing off a rope to catch one while swinging or jumping to the floor. That one wasn't too bad as you could get good at listening to where it was and figure it out after a while. HTH On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: One concept that I thought would be hard to convey by sound was in the beta of Montezuma's Revenge. The floating coin. It took me a minute to figure out that it was floating. I was either too high, or I was too low. Hmm. It was in the middle?? I thought that was a neat little puzzle. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Dark, Sure, but then again let's not forget most of our devs aren't trained professionals at this sort of thing. As a result they only program what they know how to do, sometimes that is pretty simple from a gaming point of view, or they themselves don't know any different. I think as we've said before a lot of blind gamers have no idea of what mainstream games are like, and don't really have anything to compare their games to. So when someone like you or I come along, play it, its easy to point out the lack of some more complex game play concepts maybe they never considered before because they never played anything like that themselves. HTH On 5/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I'm not saying that simplification in audio isn't needed sinse obviously the amount of information you can display in audio is much smaller, however there are occasions I feel where a developer has simplified things rather too much thus leading to a fairly basic left/right sterrio targiting affair. Myself, what I'd prefer to see is instead of developers saying well concept x isn't possible and simplifying the game, adding something extra in instead which adds another layer of complexity to the game. Say for instance in montizuma's revenge, if you decided bouncing skulls weren't workable have some other form of hazard added to the game instead which you could! show in audio, and would add in an enemy or layer of complexity to the game that you were missing with the skull movements. for instance, have firing horizontal arrows which would hit you either when jumping in the air or when climbing up and down ropes if you didn't time things correctly. Like the bouncing skulls these would add an element of danger into the game which specifically targited vertical movement, but would be quite possible to show in audio. A good example of where this has been done is actually in both alien outback and troopanum. Admitting that it is not possible to have 30 or so invaders on screen at once in an audio game, developers instead made different types of ships to make life interesting, and in alien outback, gave those ships unique attacks and weaponry such as bombs. ditto with the esp pinball tables and their minigames, sinse obviously it's not possible to include quite as much in an audio table as a graphical one simply for purposes of the scan, however by including some more complex routes and gameplay changes they give a similarly tricky experience. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Ah. They were jewels, not coins. I haven't played the demo in a long time, and it shows. (grin) --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Charles, Floating coin? There were no floating coins in Montezuma's Revenge. There were floating gems you had to jump up and catch. Some times you had to swing off a rope to catch one while swinging or jumping to the floor. That one wasn't too bad as you could get good at listening to where it was and figure it out after a while. HTH On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: One concept that I thought would be hard to convey by sound was in the beta of Montezuma's Revenge. The floating coin. It took me a minute to figure out that it was floating. I was either too high, or I was too low. Hmm. It was in the middle?? I thought that was a neat little puzzle. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
I spent the first 2 weeks of January on vacation in Florida. I don't remember how many days into the vacation it was, but I came up with the idea for Daytona, and programmed it, while I was there on the beach. My guess is that I've misrepresented the date Rail racer came out, and that's why you're asking. I guess I don't actually know when it officially came out, but right around the time I programmed Daytona I saw a lot of posts on the forum for the release of Rail racer. I assumed it had just come out. OH I SEE MY MISTAKE! I have been saying Rail racer, but I was thinking of Top Speed 3! Whoops, I can see why that was very confusing, please forgive that mistake lol. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Charles, Smile. Definitely does. Speaking of Montezuma's Revenge I've got plans to bring that game back. Well, not Montezuma's Revenge exactly but I am thinking of a game that is a cross between Montezuma's Revenge and Pitfall. Anyway, something in that style and genre at least which will be more like the classic side-scrollers of the 80's rather than the high tech games like MOTA. Cheers! On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Ah. They were jewels, not coins. I haven't played the demo in a long time, and it shows. (grin) --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Will it be Montezuma's Fall?, or Pit Revenge. If it is sort of a cross between those two games, that's the best I can think of off the top of my head. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Charles, Smile. Definitely does. Speaking of Montezuma's Revenge I've got plans to bring that game back. Well, not Montezuma's Revenge exactly but I am thinking of a game that is a cross between Montezuma's Revenge and Pitfall. Anyway, something in that style and genre at least which will be more like the classic side-scrollers of the 80's rather than the high tech games like MOTA. Cheers! On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Ah. They were jewels, not coins. I haven't played the demo in a long time, and it shows. (grin) --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Charles, At this point the game is nothing more than an idea. However, it definitely would not be one of those names. :D All I can tell you is the idea will probably be set in South America and probably deal with some Mayan or Inca ruins instead of Aztec ruins. The only problem I have with the idea now is I'm not sure weather I should make this another Tomb Hunter game involving Angela Carter, or go true retro and use a male explorer etc like Montezuma's Revenge and Pitfall. I.E. a seperate game with no connection to the Tomb Hunter games. Although, I think another Tomb Hunter game might be more marketable as those games would have full 3d movement, sound, etc where the other idea would be a retro side-scroller like Pitfall or something like that. Cheers! On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Will it be Montezuma's Fall?, or Pit Revenge. If it is sort of a cross between those two games, that's the best I can think of off the top of my head. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
I'd say that, as it might be more marketable as another of an already existing series, that's the way I'd go. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, May 20, 2011 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Charles, At this point the game is nothing more than an idea. However, it definitely would not be one of those names. :D All I can tell you is the idea will probably be set in South America and probably deal with some Mayan or Inca ruins instead of Aztec ruins. The only problem I have with the idea now is I'm not sure weather I should make this another Tomb Hunter game involving Angela Carter, or go true retro and use a male explorer etc like Montezuma's Revenge and Pitfall. I.E. a seperate game with no connection to the Tomb Hunter games. Although, I think another Tomb Hunter game might be more marketable as those games would have full 3d movement, sound, etc where the other idea would be a retro side-scroller like Pitfall or something like that. Cheers! On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Will it be Montezuma's Fall?, or Pit Revenge. If it is sort of a cross between those two games, that's the best I can think of off the top of my head. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Charles, Yeah, that's what I've been thinking. The idea is perfect for another Tomb Hunter adventure starring Angela Carter, and instead of completely writing a new back story for the character I simply add to the one that is there. Plus with MOTA coming along smoothly now that I have most of the bugs worked out of the new cross-platform engine I can go to town creating another game of this nature. On 5/20/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I'd say that, as it might be more marketable as another of an already existing series, that's the way I'd go. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Jeremy. while I agree to an extent, this sort of comment also makes me rather concerned that developers are narrowing their focus too much. If everything has to stick in that narrow band betwene too different and too much the same, we'll just see fewer and fewer games. take the fps genre. currently we have a number of first person games like sarah that are not shooters in the truist sense, in the shooter catagory we have audio quake, shades of doom, technoshock and, if we stretch the deffinition a litle, gma tank commander (first person tank driving and shooting). Terraformers is far more puzle based. suppose someone were thinking of a shooter game. shades of doom, while undoubtedly very much revolutionary and certainly the game that got me playing audio games, isn't all that is possible in the genre. suppose I were a developer and decided to create an fps game. Even if I wanted to do something fps horror there are so many other options. I might set the game on a space station you are sent to investigate, picking up messages from the dying crew, and give you weapons like pulse rifles and lasers. I might have you investigating a post apocalyptic radiation drenched area fighting mutants. i might have you in fact in the dreaded zombi appocalypse, fighting through everyday streets and shopping centers, where shotguns are rare and your having to mow zombies down with shopping trollies. I could have something gothic like resident evil set in a mantion with dodgy experiments, afterall Shades is set in a high tech base deep underground. I could have an ancient cave system where a bunch of investigators find some mysterious creatures living. These are all different settings with their own weaponry, plot, possible puzles etc, and all would be different from shades, yet all would be first person shooter games. I'm fairly confident that if anyone created any of these, so long as it was well made enough it would be played and enjoyed by the community, despite being the same action and genre as shades. Remember, in mainstream game developement there are hundreds of games out there, often even in the same series. Look at mega man or mario. Same character (or broardly the same), same basic idea for each game, different level design, different enemies, different weapons , and some different mechanics. Not to mention continuing the actual plot from game to game. My personal view is if developers constantly say we need something new, but not too new we'll just end up cutting the amounts of games available, sinse while I'm deffinately all for new design concepts and interesting ideas, I don't think every single game has to be absolutely! different. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Shaun, You forgot, but probably did not dial it up, but in the early nineties through at least the mid nineties the place to find accessible games and other accessible utility programmes etc was the Blink Link BBS in Pittsburgh run by Willie Wilson. You know that was back when the BBSs were more popular than the Internet and Email was through the fidoNet. And the BBSs had planet connect so that when I up loaded a new game to the BBS PC Ohio it would get shared all around the world with other BBSs. BFN Jim - FOR SYSOP USE ONLY - Do not write below this line. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Dark, I might have given the wrong impression with my last post. I didn't mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless. As you said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games. If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are claiming has happened. I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating existing game styles, but I know I do. Because this is something I know I personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the same. I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say for sure that at least some do. When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an Indiana Jones feel. Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released. If I had no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not? lol! Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make. I believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more audio games coming out. If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it. Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone would be comparing it to the existing game. Maybe you aren't a wizard, and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to form shapes. Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
The bio is interesting. My thought about an article on the history of gaming for the blind is this: I think this article could be a lengthy one, and an interesting one as well. Wouldn't it be a cool insertion, in parts, into consecutive issues of the Audyssey magazines? It would be a good material source, and would also be entertaining for the old and new gamers alike, whether bringing back memories or providing background info. Hmm. How about a conduit for input from readers? That could become a regular article. Gamers could give recollections, game producers could do so as well. Something along the lines of Justin's recent podcast, in text form, from different game producers on what went on during the production and or testing of a particular game? The fun stuff, the frustrations, the emotions during game production progress? Basically, the behind the scenes enlightenment. Concerning the testing aspects, names would, if the legal contract is set up that way, be avoided. Well, your little bio crept into your message, and I guess my thoughts for material for Audyssey came from my original thought. I hope material for the mag comes from my ideas? Constructive feedback is appreciated. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:42 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Shaun, I want to start by thanking you for the audio games history, I actually find it very informative and useful. I like having some idea of how things went in the past, so I can get a better idea of how they will likely change now, and in the future. I think it would be an excellent idea for several of the old timers to collaborate on a detailed audio games history. With everyone working together, I'm sure the time line of things could be fine tuned, and many specific details and events would start to surface that had been long forgotten. I'm not really familiar with your phrase hack it yourself, so you'd probably have to define that for me. I would have thought it was the same as opensource devs, but you seem to have differentiated them in your last post, so I'm not quite sure of the meaning you intended. I can't really comment about being the fastest developer or not. When I was just starting high school (1995 or 1996 I believe), I began teaching myself programming so that I could make little games and things. When I had high school programming classes, I was the expert who would know more than the professor so I'd help my friends with their work and we'd spend class playing my latest game rather than working on the day's lesson, haha. I went to the University of Michigan and got degrees in Computer science and Mechanical engineering, but I have to say that 95% of what they taught me I had already learned myself before going. All in all, it was a huge waste of time and money just to earn the piece of paper that says degree. I've always been the stubborn person who was slow to change my programming habits when those around me did. I always focused more on the end result, and how I could accomplish the same thing in a quarter of the time, by not changing my methods over to whatever was currently popular at the time. In different situations, being stubborn like that is a problem, but for the most part it has benefited me. Since it seems I've started writing a bio of myself, lol, I'll say a bit more. I'm sure there are people floating around who assume I only know Visual basic 6.0, since that is what I've written my audio games in. For the record, I do know C++, C#, Java, Objective-C, and a few of the smaller ones they make you learn as you go through college. In my stubbornness I just use the one I want to, depending on the task at hand. Oh crud, I'm sure I've just summoned a barrage of comments from other programmers haha! I've been programming pretty much every day since 1995, on all manner of personal projects. My specialty is actually vision systems, which seems a little ironic since I'm also writing audio games! For those who might not know, this means I write software AI which uses a camera for input. I'm currently waiting to see if my program has won $20,000 in an open engineering challenge sent out by the US air force. The last thing, before I stop my speech, is probably the number one most important thing to know about me. I simply cannot keep myself on a single project. At any given time I am probably working on 10 different projects, I think about them all day while I'm at work, I dream about solutions at night, and the moment I get stuck on one, I immediately fill that spot of my brain with a new one. This probably means I'll die young from
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Not using a preexisting outline or story idea just because it already exists sure is narrowing your possibilities. I think that only using original ideas for a game is like severing your body in order to save your little finger, or like cutting 7 fingers off because they are multiples of the eighth. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Dark, I might have given the wrong impression with my last post. I didn't mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless. As you said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games. If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are claiming has happened. I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating existing game styles, but I know I do. Because this is something I know I personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the same. I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say for sure that at least some do. When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an Indiana Jones feel. Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released. If I had no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not? lol! Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make. I believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more audio games coming out. If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it. Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone would be comparing it to the existing game. Maybe you aren't a wizard, and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to form shapes. Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
I've often considered writing a book about the history of audio games. An audio documentary would be ideal I suppose. I'm not yet competent enough an audio editor for a project like that. Another difficulty may be contacting some key figures who have chosen to distance themselves from the community. James North would fall into that catagory. He did an extraordinary amount for audio games often behind the scenes. However, he burnt out pretty spectacularly leaving what must still be the largest degree of polarisation and division behind. Such a history wouldn't be complete without covering his rise and fall. It changed the relationship between community and developers for quite a while. I believe we're finally recovering from that chill these days but it certainly took a while. On 5/19/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Not using a preexisting outline or story idea just because it already exists sure is narrowing your possibilities. I think that only using original ideas for a game is like severing your body in order to save your little finger, or like cutting 7 fingers off because they are multiples of the eighth. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Dark, I might have given the wrong impression with my last post. I didn't mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless. As you said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games. If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are claiming has happened. I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating existing game styles, but I know I do. Because this is something I know I personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the same. I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say for sure that at least some do. When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an Indiana Jones feel. Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released. If I had no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not? lol! Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make. I believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more audio games coming out. If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it. Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone would be comparing it to the existing game. Maybe you aren't a wizard, and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to form shapes. Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. -- Michael Feir Volunteer at The Dam http://www.thedam.org 2011-- Owner of Silver Smiles Join and share the silver lining in your life. Group homepage: http://groups.google.com/group/silver-smiles 2010-- Twitter: mfeir Skype
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Jeremy. Thanks for the bio. From the quality and number of the games you produce, I surmised that you have been programming for a while as proficiency only comes with time and practice. Over the years I can remember only one other developer, Ian Humfrees from spoonbill games who released as many games at a short stage of time. Making a game is no joke, even if some make it look easy. I also agree with those who said that any idea implimented well will be enjoyed. The most important thing is choice. A few years ago for example, there were only one strategy game with resource management, Galaxy ranger, made around 2005. Then soundRTS came out in 2007 or 8, followed by time of conflict and towers of wa last year and now lunar animals. People take heart if some project is received well and they can learn from mistakes other people made and players also know better what would work and what doesn't. As a blind programmer who likes strategy I am now considering creating my own strategy game. This would however not have been possible without the examples, as I have not been exposed to sighted strategy games. On 5/19/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Not using a preexisting outline or story idea just because it already exists sure is narrowing your possibilities. I think that only using original ideas for a game is like severing your body in order to save your little finger, or like cutting 7 fingers off because they are multiples of the eighth. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Dark, I might have given the wrong impression with my last post. I didn't mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless. As you said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games. If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are claiming has happened. I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating existing game styles, but I know I do. Because this is something I know I personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the same. I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say for sure that at least some do. When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an Indiana Jones feel. Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released. If I had no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not? lol! Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make. I believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more audio games coming out. If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it. Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone would be comparing it to the existing game. Maybe you aren't a wizard, and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to form shapes. Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Geremy, Well, as a game developer I think you are putting too much thought into it. I.E. over thinking the problem. Just because you were thinking of a game with an Indiana Jones type look and feel to it doesn't mean it isn't marketable. I, for one, am a huge fan of such games. Hense why I am creating my own series of games, Tomb Hunter, that is loosely based on Tomb Raider. In addition, to my Tomb Raider clones I've been thinking of creating a game more or less like Pitfall. Some might say it is too much like the games I've already created, given that Pitfall is basically your Indiana Jones type game, but there are essential differences that does make something like Pitfall different. Pitfall for the most part takes place in a jungle. There are vines, quicksand, natives, etc that is pretty unique to that game. Yeah, it is sort of like Indiana Jones or Tomb Raider, but still is a different game in game elements and game play. Plus if I were to create a game like Pitfall I'd want to include some of the classic arcade elements that made the ooriginal games great. That would make it something of a retro remake of a classic, and could be a selling point. So I don't know that the fact that a game that uses the same style or genre won't sell or isn't marketable. We just have to be careful not too flood the market. Cheers! On 5/19/11, Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com wrote: Dark, I might have given the wrong impression with my last post. I didn't mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless. As you said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games. If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are claiming has happened. I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating existing game styles, but I know I do. Because this is something I know I personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the same. I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say for sure that at least some do. When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an Indiana Jones feel. Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released. If I had no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not? lol! Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make. I believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more audio games coming out. If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it. Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone would be comparing it to the existing game. Maybe you aren't a wizard, and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end I would assume moving the mouse to form shapes is still just moving the mouse to form shapes. Hopefully I'm wrong and other developers aren't stuck in the same mindset as I am, but I don't think I'm wrong. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi jeremy. this really though shows my point, and wwhy I made the initial post. there is a difference betwene a direct replication of what has gone before and a similar concept which may be a solid and playable game. Agreed, if you merely had a game where you needed to form shapes with the mouse in order to operate machines, that would pretty much be similar to daytona. However, suppose there was a game where you played as a trick racer in some futuristic plane using the mouse to control your movement. You'd need to turn corners and avoid obstacles as per the corse, but suppose you could also gain extra points by performing stunts such as loops, barrel rolls, and making shapes in the sky with your com traile. All the time though you'd stil have to be going round the corse itself, so after each shape you'd need to make sure you were in position to avoid an obstacle. Like Daytona? yes. Exactly! like daytona? no indeed. worth playing? Quite possibly. while I appreciate that everyone wants to make something new, I am very much of the opinion that it is possible to produce a new twist on an old theme, or indeed simply a solid exponent of a well known style that carries things in a different direction. Other than space invaders, sterrio targiting affairs, I'd say no catagory of games is played out at all. for instance, i know Che martin is adding a new game to his card room, which i very much expect to be a card game. I'm very much looking forward to seeing what it is, despite the fact there are accessible card games kicking around, and even were it something like Cribbage which already has a well known accessible version, I'd be glad to play it as part of the cardroom with other people on the internet. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Nice thought charles. As someone who largely missed the doss days, and much of the early releases for windows, i'D BE GLAD TO READ IT, INDEED AS RECENTLY HAPPENED WHEN i ASSUMED ORIGINAL TROOPANUM WAS RELEASED IN 20004, EVEN MY IDEA OF WHAT HAPPENED WHEN IS SOMETIMES A LITLE WONKY ;D. bEWARE THE GRUE! dARK. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi William. an intereesting point about stratogy games as well is that the interface and use of combat has developed. Galaxy ranger has nooverview commands for the map and all combat is a real tiem targiting shooter affair where you personally need to targit yourself. sound rts has propper overview commands, but no way other than by calculation of for instance seeing what unit of yours is closed to an enemy. time of conflict on the other hand has imho a possitively revolutionary way of using context sensative menues. I'd not really class lunimals and towers of war in this catagory, sinse they are rather different in style, though undoubtedly stratogy games, but this just proves the point stil more that a good idea done well with it's own twist may be as good as a completely new concept. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Willem Venter dwill...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Jeremy. Thanks for the bio. From the quality and number of the games you produce, I surmised that you have been programming for a while as proficiency only comes with time and practice. Over the years I can remember only one other developer, Ian Humfrees from spoonbill games who released as many games at a short stage of time. Making a game is no joke, even if some make it look easy. I also agree with those who said that any idea implimented well will be enjoyed. The most important thing is choice. A few years ago for example, there were only one strategy game with resource management, Galaxy ranger, made around 2005. Then soundRTS came out in 2007 or 8, followed by time of conflict and towers of wa last year and now lunar animals. People take heart if some project is received well and they can learn from mistakes other people made and players also know better what would work and what doesn't. As a blind programmer who likes strategy I am now considering creating my own strategy game. This would however not have been possible without the examples, as I have not been exposed to sighted strategy games. On 5/19/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Not using a preexisting outline or story idea just because it already exists sure is narrowing your possibilities. I think that only using original ideas for a game is like severing your body in order to save your little finger, or like cutting 7 fingers off because they are multiples of the eighth. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production -Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Dark, I might have given the wrong impression with my last post. I didn't mean to suggest that the developers Should ignore using existing ideas, I just meant that it is probably what they are doing nonetheless. As you said, if the developers adopt that mentality we would have fewer games. If I've been reading this topic correctly, that is exactly what others are claiming has happened. I don't believe all of the developers are worried about repeating existing game styles, but I know I do. Because this is something I know I personally do, I find it reasonable to assume that some others would do the same. I can't really conclude that all do, or that most do, but I can say for sure that at least some do. When I was on vacation in January, I wrote Daytona, but I also partially completed a game where you defend a bunker from dragons, a game where you are a world war 2 era solder who was sent out to investigate a UFO crash (turns out to be a huge alien robot bent on destruction), work on a game similar in style to Daytona, and I even started on a side scroller with an Indiana Jones feel. Daytona was the only one that felt unique enough for me to take it all the way to being released. If I had no other game ideas, I would probably have stuck to one that was closer to some existing game, but it is easy enough for me to just hop onto a different game idea so why not? lol! Rail racer was released around that time as well, so after playing it I removed any car racing games off of my list of game ideas to make. I believe I'll continue to do the same thing as I encounter more and more audio games coming out. If I put myself into another audio game developer's shoes, if I had an idea that was very similar to Daytona I wouldn't even bother making it. Yeah, it would be unique in its own way, but I would worry that everyone would be comparing it to the existing game. Maybe you aren't a wizard, and maybe the mouse movements are meant to run machinery, but in the end
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
I'm the same way. Actuall the one I'm trying to cobble together now, at least in terms of storyline and gameplay mechanics at the moment, is an audio remake of Sid Meier's Pirates! I could never play the original so te idea of an audio version is extremely enticing. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Thomas, I'm glad I'm not the only one then, although I must have at least 50 game ideas on the agenda. Lol. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re: bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Geremy, Lol! Your bio sounds a bit like me. Like you I can't keep my mind or attention focussed on any single project at a time. That is in part why it is taking me so long to complete Mysteries of the Ancients. My weekly schedule is crazy in part because I switch from project to project from day to day. On Monday I might put four hours into Mysteries of the Ancients, on Tuesday I might work on my wrestling game idea, on Wednesday I'll be thinking about and writing down notes for a Star Wars game, on Thursday I'll go back to Mysteries of the Ancients, on Friday I'll work on what ever strikes my fansy. I'm definitely a bit of a scatter brain at times. Plus just because I go to bed, taking a shower, etc I often entertain myself by thinking of new game ideas, thinking of how to improve an existing idea, or preprogram some piece of code in my head. So just because I'm away from my PC doing something like showering, traveling, etc my mind is fully engaged on whatever project I'm working on. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
HI Dark, Agreed. Think of how many side-scrollers were created between say 1984 and 1994. The original Pitfall and Montezuma's Revenge came out at roughly the same time, similare game play elements, etc but were actually quite different when you got down to it. Montezuma's Revenge was about an explorer Panama Joe who was exploring an ancient Aztec ttemple. Pitfall is about an explorer Harry, I think his name was, who is in the Amazon jungle. Although, they are treasure hunting games they really are quite different in game play and style. My point being is I don't think game developer should be too worried about creating tgames that are similar. Even something like DynaMan and Packman Talks are different games. DynaMan doesn't have the same sounds, music, enemies, or so on as Packman. So it would be unfair to compare DynaMan to Packman Talks. Although, the concepts for DynaMan andPackman Talks are similar. There is plenty of room to design something similar as long as it stands out as a unique product. Cheers! On 5/19/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Jeremy. while I agree to an extent, this sort of comment also makes me rather concerned that developers are narrowing their focus too much. If everything has to stick in that narrow band betwene too different and too much the same, we'll just see fewer and fewer games. take the fps genre. currently we have a number of first person games like sarah that are not shooters in the truist sense, in the shooter catagory we have audio quake, shades of doom, technoshock and, if we stretch the deffinition a litle, gma tank commander (first person tank driving and shooting). Terraformers is far more puzle based. suppose someone were thinking of a shooter game. shades of doom, while undoubtedly very much revolutionary and certainly the game that got me playing audio games, isn't all that is possible in the genre. suppose I were a developer and decided to create an fps game. Even if I wanted to do something fps horror there are so many other options. I might set the game on a space station you are sent to investigate, picking up messages from the dying crew, and give you weapons like pulse rifles and lasers. I might have you investigating a post apocalyptic radiation drenched area fighting mutants. i might have you in fact in the dreaded zombi appocalypse, fighting through everyday streets and shopping centers, where shotguns are rare and your having to mow zombies down with shopping trollies. I could have something gothic like resident evil set in a mantion with dodgy experiments, afterall Shades is set in a high tech base deep underground. I could have an ancient cave system where a bunch of investigators find some mysterious creatures living. These are all different settings with their own weaponry, plot, possible puzles etc, and all would be different from shades, yet all would be first person shooter games. I'm fairly confident that if anyone created any of these, so long as it was well made enough it would be played and enjoyed by the community, despite being the same action and genre as shades. Remember, in mainstream game developement there are hundreds of games out there, often even in the same series. Look at mega man or mario. Same character (or broardly the same), same basic idea for each game, different level design, different enemies, different weapons , and some different mechanics. Not to mention continuing the actual plot from game to game. My personal view is if developers constantly say we need something new, but not too new we'll just end up cutting the amounts of games available, sinse while I'm deffinately all for new design concepts and interesting ideas, I don't think every single game has to be absolutely! different. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Tom. You are right about side scrollers. thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the issue comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style games. IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order to wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien spaceships or whatever. ditto with boppit or simon style games. If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or continuous plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of the game can be intrinsically different. Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and sfx. By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, he could create a game more than different enough from the original for people to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves physical exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of gameplay elements. Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were included. But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even though the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different to play. As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers produced in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you. Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become interested just from the preview. A side scroller set in the jungle? isn't that a bit similar to Tarzan jr? or Q9? heck no! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
I believe we are looking at the situation from different angles. If I were simply looking for a marketable game, then I completely agree with you. More money can be pulled from an an existing game design, as long as you twist the story and game play enough to be entertaining. I, however, am not marketing my games, so my goals in creating them are not the same. For me, when I am working on a game, I am trying to stand out and to offer up something new and innovative. If 100 people specifically told me they would pay money for a pacman game that had a high score system, as an example, I probably still wouldn't make it simply because it goes against my efforts to innovate. Some other developer, who has more of a marketing goal, would be able to swoop in and punch out exactly what the people are willing to pay money for. You always need both kinds of people. One group of developers profits by giving people what they specifically ask for, and the other group hopes to give people what they didn't even know they wanted yet. Out of the two roads, I am clearly taking the more difficult, and less financially rewarding one. lol, I suppose I am literally admitting that I'm foolish with how I do things. Oh well, I guess I can't change what makes me happy, so I'll have to just continue down the road I've chosen. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Hi Dark, That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had much experience with games outside this community and maybe what his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from played out. As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either. Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun, Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games. Cheers! On 5/19/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. You are right about side scrollers. thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the issue comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style games. IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order to wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien spaceships or whatever. ditto with boppit or simon style games. If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or continuous plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of the game can be intrinsically different. Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and sfx. By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, he could create a game more than different enough from the original for people to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves physical exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of gameplay elements. Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were included. But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even though the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different to play. As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers produced in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you. Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become interested just from the preview. A side scroller set in the jungle? isn't that a bit similar to Tarzan jr? or Q9? heck no! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed
Are Judgment Day, Super Liam, and the betas of MOTA the same? Even though they are side scrollers, no. This is why I don't think that the attitude of not creating a side scroller because they already exist is not the way to look at what to produce. I have an idea for a bowling game. How many of them exist for blind gamers to play with absolutely not one bit of sighted assistance from start to finish? Should I produce it? Should I get together with a programmer and share the rewards because I don't know programming? Or should I forget it because of what already exists. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] the spirit of game production - Re:bringsbackmemories - Re: Fw: BlindSoftware.comBlog Feed Hi Dark, That's possible. Remember the VI gaming market as a whole hasn't had much experience with games outside this community and maybe what his/her friends/family play. This might contribute to the feeling of well if there is a game like Tarzan Junior set in the jungle then another side-scroller such as Perilous Hearts wouldn't sell. Of course, as we've already heard the two games are quite different in game play, and I'm certainly thinking of buying Perilous Hearts based on what I've heard alone. So the side-scroller genre is far from played out. As far as arcade games I'm not sure it is totally played out either. Remember you are only thinking of the virtical shooters like Space Invaders. There are games like Time Pilot, Chopper Command, Topgun, Air Wolf, and perhaps hundreds more that have never been tapped in the arcade genre alone. We just need to tap those types of games. Cheers! On 5/19/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. You are right about side scrollers. thinking about this a bit further though, I do wonder if part of the issue comes from the fact we have! had such a boom in specifically arcade style games. IWhile I think Liam did a great job with jd, I think the basic arcade principle of having a set of things you need to react to quickly in order to wrack up score is itself a limiting genre, afterallleft/right sterrio targiting is! sterrio, whether your shooting copters, planes, alien spaceships or whatever. ditto with boppit or simon style games. If however games involve a specific element of exploration and/or continuous plot, then even if all mechanics were exactly the same, the basic area of the game can be intrinsically different. Suppose Phil were to create a packman talks Ii with the character and sfx. By altering the layout of the levels, maybe sticking in some new enemies, he could create a game more than different enough from the original for people to be interested in buying, simply because! packman talks inolves physical exploration of a maze, and that maze can be altered irrispective of gameplay elements. Mega man x 1 and mega man x 2 are pretty similar, indeed in one gameboy title megaman extreme, bosses and level elements from both games were included. But because the enemies, locations, weapons and bosses changed, even though the core mechanics of the game didn't, the two games are very different to play. As someone who played (and indeed owns), many of the side scrollers produced in the early nineties, I absolutely agree with you. Look at Philip bennifalls perilous hearts and how many people have become interested just from the preview. A side scroller set in the jungle? isn't that a bit similar to Tarzan jr? or Q9? heck no! Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
