Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
This is amazing. I agree with Craig on something almost completely. Craig McClanahan wrote: On 5/30/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/30/07, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/26/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ack in terms of driving a community away because it is unable to meet our arbitrary criteria. That sort of thinking just seems so Borg to me. It's another way of saying that a software product only has value if its hosted by the ASF. If a subproject, or even a project, is down to one or two committers, and those committers can't find a third, and don't want to apply to the Commons or declare the product dormant, then setting up shop on GoogleCode is an excellent alternative. I've done the same myself, and it's not the least bit painful. In many ways, it's joyful. Which Apache projects have you moved to GoogleCode and found it a joyful experience? ie) I presume you mean starting a project there rather than moving a community from the ASF. I suspect you are missing the point that *I* at least think Ted is making ... doing open source outside of Apache is fun, if you like doing open source. Doing open source inside Apache is a pain ... even if you like doing open source, and even if you are an insider and know all the loopholes. My distaste for driving people to an open source repository is not because of the repositories, but because our rules have driven them out. It might even be healthy if more ASF committers were involved with other hosts. The ASF may be a cult, but it should not also be a fetish :) Other communities, not 'host's. ie) You won't learn much from code.google, java.net or sf.net other than whether you love or hate the infrastructure. I bet a lot of us are involved with other communities. You're right that it's more community oriented than host oriented (because it is about the process, not the technology). You are wrong if you believe that the Apache Way (if there is such a singular thing, which I would dispute based on seven years of evidence to the contrary) makes things easier rather than harder. Yes, there are some benefits of the Apache brand, but it is an open question whether they are worth the costs. For myself, I have lots of ideas to do future open source projects, and (at the moment) zero plans to do them here at Apache. The emotional and procedural and cultural costs are too high to compensate for the branding benefits. Hen Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Buni Meldware Communication Suite http://buni.org Multi-platform and extensible Email, Calendaring (including freebusy), Rich Webmail, Web-calendaring, ease of installation/administration. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta
This is amazing. I agree with Craig on something almost completely. Craig McClanahan wrote: On 5/30/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/30/07, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/26/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ack in terms of driving a community away because it is unable to meet our arbitrary criteria. That sort of thinking just seems so Borg to me. It's another way of saying that a software product only has value if its hosted by the ASF. If a subproject, or even a project, is down to one or two committers, and those committers can't find a third, and don't want to apply to the Commons or declare the product dormant, then setting up shop on GoogleCode is an excellent alternative. I've done the same myself, and it's not the least bit painful. In many ways, it's joyful. Which Apache projects have you moved to GoogleCode and found it a joyful experience? ie) I presume you mean starting a project there rather than moving a community from the ASF. I suspect you are missing the point that *I* at least think Ted is making ... doing open source outside of Apache is fun, if you like doing open source. Doing open source inside Apache is a pain ... even if you like doing open source, and even if you are an insider and know all the loopholes. My distaste for driving people to an open source repository is not because of the repositories, but because our rules have driven them out. It might even be healthy if more ASF committers were involved with other hosts. The ASF may be a cult, but it should not also be a fetish :) Other communities, not 'host's. ie) You won't learn much from code.google, java.net or sf.net other than whether you love or hate the infrastructure. I bet a lot of us are involved with other communities. You're right that it's more community oriented than host oriented (because it is about the process, not the technology). You are wrong if you believe that the Apache Way (if there is such a singular thing, which I would dispute based on seven years of evidence to the contrary) makes things easier rather than harder. Yes, there are some benefits of the Apache brand, but it is an open question whether they are worth the costs. For myself, I have lots of ideas to do future open source projects, and (at the moment) zero plans to do them here at Apache. The emotional and procedural and cultural costs are too high to compensate for the branding benefits. Hen Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP
-1 to Commons being Jakarta. Commons should be commons, have its own PMC/domain. It already has its own brand recognition. I had an interesting conversation with a large financial customer about it just before I left JBoss. They weren't clearly even aware that commons was part of Jakarta. -Andy Danny Angus wrote: On 5/8/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ ] +1 I support the proposal [ ] +0 I don't care [ ] -1 I'm opposed to the proposal because... -1 I would like to see the issues raised regarding the name resolved. I would also like to see the options regarding commons as a successor to the Jakarta PMC more fully explored. Once consensus is forthcoming on these point I will vote +1 to TLP for commons. I don't believe that commons TLP can be decided in isolation from consensus about the future for either a) the jakarta pmc and b) the jakarta brand. d. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Move POI to TLP
Hell no. We're not letting you off that easy. Laubach, Shawn Contr 555 ACSS/GFLA1 wrote: So I can vote for this but then I'm not a committer anymore? Just curious. Shawn -Original Message- From: Nick Burch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 4:18 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; general@jakarta.apache.org Subject: [VOTE] Move POI to TLP Hi All After lots of discussion within POI, and Jakarta in general, we think POI is ready to graduate to its own TLP. Thanks to the magic of ApacheCon, lots of people have been on-hand to help finalise the proposal for this, which is attached below. So, now is the time to vote on the proposal: [ ] +1 I support the proposal [ ] +0 I don't care [ ] -1 I'm opposed to the proposal because... Voting will close in one week. Cheers Nick WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software related to the continued implementation of the library for manipulating files in various business formats currently known as Apache POI for distribution at no charge to the public. NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee (PMC), to be known as the Apache POI Project, be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further RESOLVED, that the Apache POI Project be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of software related to creation and maintenance of open-source software and documentation related to the POI library based on software licensed to the Foundation; and be it further RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, POI be and hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Apache POI Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Apache POI Project; and be it further RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the POI PMC: * Nick Burch [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Amol S. Deshmukh [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Jason Height [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Marc Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Rainer Klute [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Yegor Kozlov [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Danny Muid [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Avik Sengupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Glen Stampoultzis [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Sean Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Nick Burch be appointed to the office of Vice President, POI, to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be it further RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the Apache POI sub-project and encumbered upon the Apache Jakarta PMC are hereafter discharged. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailing List:http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#poi The Apache Jakarta POI Project: http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Move POI to TLP
So umm... duh +1 Nick Burch wrote: Hi All After lots of discussion within POI, and Jakarta in general, we think POI is ready to graduate to its own TLP. Thanks to the magic of ApacheCon, lots of people have been on-hand to help finalise the proposal for this, which is attached below. So, now is the time to vote on the proposal: [ ] +1 I support the proposal [ ] +0 I don't care [ ] -1 I'm opposed to the proposal because... Voting will close in one week. Cheers Nick WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best interests of the Foundation and consistent with the Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source software related to the continued implementation of the library for manipulating files in various business formats currently known as Apache POI for distribution at no charge to the public. NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management Committee (PMC), to be known as the Apache POI Project, be and hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and be it further RESOLVED, that the Apache POI Project be and hereby is responsible for the creation and maintenance of software related to creation and maintenance of open-source software and documentation related to the POI library based on software licensed to the Foundation; and be it further RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, POI be and hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the Apache POI Project, and to have primary responsibility for management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of the Apache POI Project; and be it further RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the POI PMC: * Nick Burch [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Amol S. Deshmukh [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Jason Height [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Marc Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Rainer Klute [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Yegor Kozlov [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Danny Muid [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Avik Sengupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Glen Stampoultzis [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Sean Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Nick Burch be appointed to the office of Vice President, POI, to serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until a successor is appointed; and be it further RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the Apache POI sub-project and encumbered upon the Apache Jakarta PMC are hereafter discharged. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linuxfest northwest
anyone else coming? http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=viewid=141509 -- Catch us at Linuxfest Northwest (4/28-4/29) http://linuxfestnorthwest.org Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Release Regexp 1.5
Yeah, well I consider voting on something that doesn't exist yet to be absurd. So there we are. This whole thread is absurd. There is no technical issue here. cvs tag FOOBAR_1_0_RC1 ant scp... ...crickets... cvs TAG FOOBAR_1_0 ssh... mv FOOBAR_1.0-RC1... FOOBAR_1.0-final... -andy -- From Windows/Exchange to Linux/Meldware Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Create [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailinglist..
I think it is a bad idea. Either a project is alive or it is dead and most of the dead are not coming back. The site, the project and everything else should reflect this. I suggest that: 1. ECS 2. ORO 3. Regexp 4. Alexandria (already does basically) all have a page that looks like this one: http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html Stating that the projects are dead and state what things have taken their place and provide links. There is no need for an artificial dev list or users list. Just close the lists. (If you disagree look at the list archive for each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more than THEORY). -Andy Martin van den Bemt wrote: Maybe a [EMAIL PROTECTED] I see general as being the list for jakarta wide discussions and not so much a list of asking specific questions about components.. Mvgr, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No PST Files Ever Again Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Create [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailinglist..
Whoa...my uncle is back from the dead. -Andy Michael Oliver wrote: We aren't related, but I agree with Andy. Michael Oliver -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 3:17 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Create [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailinglist.. I think it is a bad idea. Either a project is alive or it is dead and most of the dead are not coming back. The site, the project and everything else should reflect this. I suggest that: 1. ECS 2. ORO 3. Regexp 4. Alexandria (already does basically) all have a page that looks like this one: http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html Stating that the projects are dead and state what things have taken their place and provide links. There is no need for an artificial dev list or users list. Just close the lists. (If you disagree look at the list archive for each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more than THEORY). -Andy Martin van den Bemt wrote: Maybe a [EMAIL PROTECTED] I see general as being the list for jakarta wide discussions and not so much a list of asking specific questions about components.. Mvgr, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No PST Files Ever Again Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No PST Files Ever Again Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My svn account
no. don't see it in spam folder either... Martin van den Bemt wrote: You received Joes mail ? Mvgr, Martin Andrew C. Oliver wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :cat /usr/local/bin/svnpasswd #!/bin/sh echo Please visit https://svn.apache.org/change-password; robert burrell donkin wrote: On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 16:44 -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: IIRC, this is my 4th attempt to resolve this (I try like every 3-4 months). I would like to commit something. My SVN account is not working. per the instructions off the SVN page I emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED] I got no response. I am still able to log in to people.apache.org. svnpasswd...? - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No PST Files Ever Again Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Nightly builds docu?
Ummwhy not out of Gump? Phil Steitz wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: On 1/16/07, Ortwin Glück [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Does anyone (Henry?) know what happened to http://www.apache.org/dev/nightly-builds.html ? It's referenced from http://www.apache.org/dev/ at the very bottom of the page. I'm looking for information how to get nightly builds done for HttpComponents. It probably never existed. When that page was created the links were made for pages that didn't exist to encourage people to write them - didn't work :) Nightly build wise... it's still an unorganized situation. In Commons we have some hand written scripts that are used on a zone (vmbuild) to build the code each night. Taglibs used to be built each night on Glenn's machine (I suspect that's not true anymore). We could expand the script for Commons to work from the Jakarta perspective and not the Commons one. +1 and would not be hard to do. Makes sense to do this for all Jakarta components that want nightlies and as long as the builds are reasonable in execution time, this should not be a problem. The current script supports Ant, Maven 1 and Maven 2. The script code is in svn at jakarta/commons/proper/commons-nightly/. The main script, commons_nigthly.sh gets svn upped on vmbuild by a crontab wrapper before executing each night, so if you just make changes to include a new build or build type into this script and config and check in the changes, the new component will be added. Phil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No PST Files Ever Again Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: My svn account
[EMAIL PROTECTED] :cat /usr/local/bin/svnpasswd #!/bin/sh echo Please visit https://svn.apache.org/change-password; robert burrell donkin wrote: On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 16:44 -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: IIRC, this is my 4th attempt to resolve this (I try like every 3-4 months). I would like to commit something. My SVN account is not working. per the instructions off the SVN page I emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED] I got no response. I am still able to log in to people.apache.org. svnpasswd...? - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No PST Files Ever Again Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
My svn account
IIRC, this is my 4th attempt to resolve this (I try like every 3-4 months). I would like to commit something. My SVN account is not working. per the instructions off the SVN page I emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED] I got no response. I am still able to log in to people.apache.org. Suggestions for resolution? Account name: acoliver. Any help would be appreciated. I will consider requests for bribes. -andy -- No PST Files Ever Again Buni Meldware Communication Suite Email, Calendaring, ease of configuration/administration http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
POI TLP -- constructively
I really liked hearing Avik speak up because he's been hurting for awhile and not spoken up. It was Nick's first release, cut him some slack. POI has been around since 2001, in Apache since 2002. It is nearly 2007. Talks of mentoring us or incubating us are a little patronizing and insulting (multiple of us our even members of the foundation though I forget who). Much of the thread is about bashing us and bashing me in particular which I stupidly reacted to partly out of fatigue. I appologize for that, I've been very busy launching http://buni.org and planning our corporate structure. It is fair to say that not many POI people participate in Jakarta. However, to add perspective we never joined the Jakarta as it is -- we joined Jakarta as it was...and one day this formed around us. It is fair to criticize our build...it is pretty rusty and yucky. I do however thing focusing too much on it is a bit well...mean. Nick has been doing a great job and a lot of work. (I on the other hand will have to merge my patches into SVN before I can even commit them since they're off of CVS :-P ). However it was his first release. Moreover, Apache's release policies have evolved considerably since the last official release and none of us have a valid signed key...that needs to be rectified (laziness, don't like conventions where all the cool key signing parties). We're not the only one's guilty of kinds of neglect. Our own Marc Johnson (who cofounded the project) has been extremely frustrated at the lack of responsiveness in getting his access/etc in order and no one at POI seems to be able to jerk the right chain in Apache to make that happen (and I think he requested from this PMC with no effect). So much that he's given up! In any case, legal issues aside (which have to a good degree abated, but take yourself back 5 years) I really don't want POI to really merge into Jakarta (which is really now the successor to Jakarta Commons) and I don't think the majority of the committers do either. On the other hand, I really don't think POI by itself can be a TLP as its scope is too narrow (historically this was deliberate). I also don't think that parts of POI have much of a future as we're moving to an XML formats era, but other parts certainly do. Partly because of projects like POI, Microsoft is even moving. Once the default is to save in an XML format then will anyone really care about POI as it is as more than a migration tool. That being said, there is considerable interest in unified APIs for each of these verticals (spreadsheets, documents, etc) and considerable life in POI with a very active userbase. Many people dealing with data formats have asked for common APIs for the various verticals that output to the various formats. Moreover, many of us are no longer as single minded with regards to Java as we once were (POI ruby for example). And achieving API compatibility across these could be interesting. I therefore propose this: * Jakarta PMC has the responsibility to not call more votes on restructuring POI during the next X months. (Access or otherwise) * POI committers have responsibility for achieving the proper oversight procedures and putting out a new release in the next X months * POI committers have responsibility for putting together a TLP proposal and working out a consensus. (BTW that pretty much is batting 1000 on this: http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/JakartaPMCRequestTLPBenchmark) Full disclosure: I've also submitted a counter proposal to the committers as an alternative to leave apache entirely. However thus far most folks seem to value POIs association with Apache and the opportunities afforded them, even if they find it difficult to work with as one person stated in response. I suspect TLP status would alleviate some of the mutual snags between apache and POI (for one we could get poor Marc his access back despite him having sent in his CLA now like 3 times including when the project moved to Apache and for two we'd be sending our reports in ourselves and thus have to do more proper oversight). However, PLLEEAASS let's press the PAUSE button until January 3rd so that we can all get very drunk and open presents rather than jerk each other's chains in front of a computer on a mailing list. -Andy Andrew C. Oliver Buni Luni http://buni.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: POI TLP -- constructively
Sleep Martinsleep. All will be answered, resolved...but not today. Right now I'm going to help my 2 year old draw dinosaurs with his Hanukkah present (he is obsessed with dinosaurs). -andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.
I feel a bit attacked for no reason really (regarding the barbs thrown in my direction). It has been some time since I have not been rather civil on this list and I would expect the return courtesy. I've always tried to make a good faith effort with regards to POI. I have never supported (and voted against) the other jakarta flattening thing and at the time it was disingenuously provided (I never reversed my -1 vote you just ignored it). Originally if memory serves (like 5 yrs ago) the legal issue came from our mentor into Jakarta (Stefano Mazzocchi) and following that based on some early issues with legal stuff that was a real thread and some real concerns and scenarios (some of which has to do with an individual that did become a very spirited contributor elsewhere). That stuff should not be vetted publicly and probably not on the PMC list. We very nearly did have a REAL problem in the past that would have put the project and the ASF in jeopardy and steps were taken to require a personal assurance. I still have no personal desire to have the same people who brought me commons automatically in POI. I would like to see a formats.apache.org project which was devoted to Java/Ruby/C# APIs for office software file formats and more. However I don't wish to be chair. I would support nick as chair though and lend him what assistance I can. With the launch of Buni (http://buni.org) my time for repeating votes every few months because you're a sore looser while throwing barbs at me is seriously limited. I do however welcome constructive good-intentioned dialog -Andy Nick Burch wrote: On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Henri Yandell wrote: Back when I joined POI, I was told the apache legal team had suggested the requirement. Perhaps one of the older POI committers can supply the original details? My understanding is that the advice is from Andy's personal lawyer many moons ago, maybe before POI joined the ASF. OK, I'm happy to be corrected :) Assuming the Apache legal team are happy with us dropping the requirement (which I take from Martin's email that they are?), then I don't see why we couldn't drop the restriction. I'm all for getting more Jakarta participation in POI, and more POI participation in the rest of Jakarta. That said, I think I'll wait for Andy's response before I formally switch to a +1 Nick (I am from POI) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.
Hey I have an idea! If it doesn't pass this time we can call another vote right before the next holiday and hope that none of the POI PMC members are around... Then 3 months later do it again. -1 (because my votes don't seem to be counted and Henri will make up backstory for me) Henri Yandell wrote: On 12/15/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/15/06, Nick Burch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Martin van den Bemt wrote: Apache legal doesn't know anything about this.. Back when I joined POI, I was told the apache legal team had suggested the requirement. Perhaps one of the older POI committers can supply the original details? My understanding is that the advice is from Andy's personal lawyer many moons ago, maybe before POI joined the ASF. From an ASF point of view if someone breaks an NDA on our list or in a commit, then it's their head and not ours. We would respond as quickly as possible once we're aware of the issue by removing reference to that issue (and unless we think it was an honest mistake also yanking the commit rights of the person who broke it). I'm not sure if we'd legally have to do that or not - I don't know how NDAs fit into IP (copyright/trademarks), or if its just a personal agreement between two parties and the NDA breaker is just breaking that contract. I am not a lawyer etc etc, but the above is my understanding and would hold for any of our mailing lists. Public statements seem like an odd thing. There's no official archive of them at the ASF (and they're not made to the ASF), so I doubt they hold any weight or value to the ASF. Additionally - Harmony setup some extra process to help with making sure everyone involved knew that the ASF didn't want any trade secrets to be exposed - so there may be something that POI can learn from them [Geir?]. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.
The alias is immaterial to me -Andy Roland Weber wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: [...] I would like to see a formats.apache.org project which was devoted to Java/Ruby/C# APIs for office software file formats and more. That's a very unspecific name. formats can mean anything, from formatting a file system to data formats/representations like BER. How about compound documents - compdocs or compdogs? That's probably better than some acronym like jivoff (Java Implementations of Various Office File Formats :-) cheers, Roland - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.
Will Glass-Husain wrote: Andy-- No one was going to railroad this through without input from POI. See my previous email where I insisted that we have POI participation. (and I would have -1'd this automatically if it had been lacking). The discussion was civil up until recently. Okay. It just didn't LOOk that way. I am wondering about this vote though. Why now? and what's the significance of POI/Jakarta svn access merging? To me it seems the flattening of svn is of little significance. After a year with the new structure, I see individual cases where committers have cross-pollinated (in commons, perhaps) but it hasn't seemed to make a big impact for many subprojects. +1 So, then - Martin - why are you calling for a vote? Is there a pressing need to get access to POI svn? Are there patches being submitted but not going in? Are you just trying to clean up Jakarta, make it more definable? Or is there something going on with POI that we should discuss publically? +1 There's a reasonable discussion that could be held about the role of POI and Jakarta. Maybe we should have that discussion instead of voting on a controversial but practically insignificant issue. +1 I'd like to see a TLP. Or baring that an exit. WILL On 12/15/06, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey I have an idea! If it doesn't pass this time we can call another vote right before the next holiday and hope that none of the POI PMC members are around... Then 3 months later do it again. -1 (because my votes don't seem to be counted and Henri will make up backstory for me) Henri Yandell wrote: On 12/15/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/15/06, Nick Burch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Martin van den Bemt wrote: Apache legal doesn't know anything about this.. Back when I joined POI, I was told the apache legal team had suggested the requirement. Perhaps one of the older POI committers can supply the original details? My understanding is that the advice is from Andy's personal lawyer many moons ago, maybe before POI joined the ASF. From an ASF point of view if someone breaks an NDA on our list or in a commit, then it's their head and not ours. We would respond as quickly as possible once we're aware of the issue by removing reference to that issue (and unless we think it was an honest mistake also yanking the commit rights of the person who broke it). I'm not sure if we'd legally have to do that or not - I don't know how NDAs fit into IP (copyright/trademarks), or if its just a personal agreement between two parties and the NDA breaker is just breaking that contract. I am not a lawyer etc etc, but the above is my understanding and would hold for any of our mailing lists. Public statements seem like an odd thing. There's no official archive of them at the ASF (and they're not made to the ASF), so I doubt they hold any weight or value to the ASF. Additionally - Harmony setup some extra process to help with making sure everyone involved knew that the ASF didn't want any trade secrets to be exposed - so there may be something that POI can learn from them [Geir?]. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [site] proposed changes
Why not just move all of the content of all of these pages to the wiki and change the links. Or better still have a section of wiki links in the right hand nav for them. Linking to pages in the wiki is bad, I think. When a page in a wiki has reached a point of wanting to be individually linked to, then I think that's a sign that it wants to be on the site. I actually favor the idea of the whole site being a wiki. I see little value from hand coding the p tags and wanking around with the tools to build it.Then the process for structuring the site is democratized and the process for generating the consensus and structuring the site will be closer to the metal. However, I've never been much of one for ceremony. -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Notice of intent]: Make Jira auth like SVN
-1 (just like I was -1 to the SVN one) -Andy Henri Yandell wrote: I've moved Jelly, Velocity, Velocity-Tools, Turbine and HTTPComponents to use the Jakarta permissions - which provides various permissions to the jakarta-developers group. Said group is formed from the members of the subproject groups mentioned above, along with Hivemind, Cactus and Tapestry. Hen On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Henri Yandell wrote: I think this is a fairly unexciting concept, so rather than voting on it I'll just state that I (or a volunteer(?)) am going to do this and see if anyone -1s. As Felipe pointed out, it's a pain in the arse not being a developer for other Jakarta projects in Jira, given that he can now commit to them. So the idea is to make the Jira authorization similar to the SVN authorization (keeping POI separate, and merging the rest into one group). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Notice of intent]: Make Jira auth like SVN
Actually -0 for this. POI is on bugzilla. I still don't like commonsificaiton on Jakarta but won't be a prick about this one. Andrew C. Oliver wrote: -1 (just like I was -1 to the SVN one) -Andy Henri Yandell wrote: I've moved Jelly, Velocity, Velocity-Tools, Turbine and HTTPComponents to use the Jakarta permissions - which provides various permissions to the jakarta-developers group. Said group is formed from the members of the subproject groups mentioned above, along with Hivemind, Cactus and Tapestry. Hen On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Henri Yandell wrote: I think this is a fairly unexciting concept, so rather than voting on it I'll just state that I (or a volunteer(?)) am going to do this and see if anyone -1s. As Felipe pointed out, it's a pain in the arse not being a developer for other Jakarta projects in Jira, given that he can now commit to them. So the idea is to make the Jira authorization similar to the SVN authorization (keeping POI separate, and merging the rest into one group). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Tiles as the seed for Jakarta Web Components
No. There isn't a consensus. Just you guys REALLY REALLY want it to happen. Do not mistake one for the other. I did pay attention. Yet feel the issue has not been sufficiently addressed thus I'm -1 for all the previously stated reasons in all of the vaguely alluded to threads for all the reasons stated previously that I still feel are not addressed. -Andy Martin Cooper wrote: On 4/25/06, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd be against another commons style sub-community. Unless you can show me a defined scope, web components means nothing, then expect my objection. Understood. A formal scope does need to be written down and agreed upon. However, I believe that concensus on the gist of such a scope has already happened, between the lines, in the numerous previous threads on JWC on various lists. -- Martin Cooper -Andy James Mitchell wrote: I believe that this would be a great way to bootstrap this new community. If this were a formal vote, then I, as both a Struts PMC and a Jakarta PMC member, would throw a binding +1 your way. -- James Mitchell On Apr 24, 2006, at 11:56 PM, Martin Cooper wrote: There has been considerable discussion, on this list and others, about the creation of a Jakarta Web Components sub-project (also previously known as Jakarta Silk). I believe the concensus has been in favour of creating it. However, we seemed to get bogged down, several times, in discussions of the name, or of exactly which pieces of Jakarta Commons, Jakarta Taglibs, etc., should move to the new sub-project. Meanwhile, over at Struts, we have had a number of discussions about the future of Tiles[1], currently a Struts sub-project. We have been working hard to make Tiles independent of Struts, and are close to achieving that goal. With Tiles no longer depending on Struts, it makes little sense for it to remain a part of the Struts project. In fact, it is much more likely to flourish outside of Struts. The proposal, then, is to create the Jakarta Web Components sub-project, and make Tiles the first citizen of that sub-project. This simultaneously achieves several objectives: 1) We actually get started with the Jakarta Web Components sub-project. 2) We can defer discussion of which other parts of Jakarta move there. 3) We create a logical home for the now-Struts-independent Tiles. While Tiles is a powerful templating framework, it is actually a fairly small code base, making it a good candidate for an independent web component. It is still being developed, so we would not be seeding Jakarta Web Components with a dormant component. Several of the Struts committers (many of whom are already Jakarta committers) would come here to continue working on Tiles, and to help build the Jakarta Web Components sub-project. Once Jakarta Web Components is up and running, it would, of course, be up to the various communities surrounding Commons and Taglibs components, and potentially other Jakarta sub-projects, as to whether or not they choose to join the new sub-project. The goal of this proposal is simply to seed the sub-project and get the ball rolling. Comments? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT] Move Jakarta Cactus/JMeter to new Testing TLP
BTW, while I simply don't care on this particular issue. I object to the bizarre form of this vote by procedure as a matter of practice. On these issues: 1. If you don't get any response from the dev list of that project coming to the PMC with a vote seems to be call votes until I get the answer I want -- which I have always thought was a bit off. 2. The odd form of the vote. +0 is support but won't help and +1 always provides for help. While Apache is a meritocracy rather than a do-ocracy (and believe me...it is different) this ensures that the project will have enough of the labor support that it will need. Removing the labor component of the vote is just plain ill-advised IMO. No need to explain this to me, I'm just explaining why I may -1 on form and not substance anything that is done this way in the future. Yet, I'll of course ignore it if I simply don't care enough about the success for failure of the issue, but silence in this case is not consent :-) -Andy Felipe Leme wrote: Hi all, After the second run, the move has finally been approved! Here are the final votes: *** Binding (PMC Members) votes in order they were received +1 Felipe Leme +1 Peter Lin +1 Yoav Shapira +0 Sebastian Bazley +0 Henri Yandell +1 Vincent Massol +1 Stephen Colebourne +1 Scott Eade +1 Rahul Akolkar +1 Henning Schmiedehausen +1 Martin van den Bemt +1 Dion Gillard --- +10 total *** Non-binding votes in order they were received +1 Christophe Lechenne +1 Magnus Grimsell +1 Jorg Schaible --- +3 total I will check what has to be done next (and then inform this list...). -- Felipe - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox
Why? Do you need something to do? I have many unworked open source tasks that I could pass on. I'm happy to help you along on them. Seriously. Henri Yandell wrote: On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Torsten Curdt wrote: However Jakarta-sandbox is SCOPELESS. Go have a scopeless sandbox on sourceforge IMO. If you want to start a whole NEW project then do that in the incubator IMO. Why on sourceforge - why not on our infrastructure? What the difference for you? You want every tiny (commons) library go through the incubator? ...or do you just don't want full projects sneak in through that sandbox? So far I don't understand why you are seeing this so problematic. I think I get it. * If the scope of Jakarta = anything in Java, then a Jakarta Sandbox is a terrifying prospect. * If the scope of Jakarta is refined, then a Jakarta Sandbox would not be a problem. I think it's a pretty fair point for people to have. Will start another email based on Jakarta's scope. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox
So basically if I call my project a component I don't have to go through the incubator just YOUR incubator. Nope, poor explanation on my part. Code created within the Apache community does not have to go through the incubator at all. The only bit component refers to is related to Martin's point - it describes Jakartas scope - or at least the scope that I think we're arriving at after years of subprojects becoming tlp. Not everyone is at your destination. Nor does everyone agree on the direction. Totally NOT how the incubator was described to me. As I understand it if Tomcat (for instance) wants to create a new JSP engine, that's kosher for Tomcat. However if someone in POI wanted to create a new AI engine (having nothing to do with MS file formats) then that is Incubator-toast. 3. -1 to the form of this proposal which seems overly coarse grained or not nearly detailed (I'm not sure which) Sounds about right - response so far suggests I need a lot more in the proposal - and it's probably better to go with the JLC vote next so the sandbox issue would be more obvious (things would be going from Commons Sandbox to JLC grouping). So far that seems like more commons mess. Thus far I've failed to see what makes it not more of the same (aka commons). The usual chestnut :) You say communities, I say community. I said nothing of the sort either way. I have come to consider such discussions in the same thread as proactively actuate our SOA realization strategy paradigm shift... Lets focus on core and concrete. Agreed, the JLC proposal is completely yet more commons mess. Why's the 'yet more' part of this negative? I would challenge that the problem with the commons mess is it has no scope what-so-ever -- except kinda java...or not really... And now somehow the Ant has designed to swallow the elephant. -1 to that. No more predominantly scopeless or fuzzy-scope commons-like-projects. No more painless ways around the incubator. Not because I love the incubator, I think it was a bad idea, but it should apply to everyone. I think HTTPClient has a scope (for instance) and that's probably even tight. I don't think commons has ANY scope other than what the participants have decided to do today. If you want to talk the board's intent -- then this is the core of the issue and not whether you force us all to get 1000 irrelevant-to-us emails in a day. -andy Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox
Based on that what WOULD BE out of scope of today's commons or this MEGA-sandbox or this JCL or whatever? robert burrell donkin wrote: On Sun, 2006-04-09 at 10:20 -0400, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: snip Totally NOT how the incubator was described to me. As I understand it if Tomcat (for instance) wants to create a new JSP engine, that's kosher for Tomcat. However if someone in POI wanted to create a new AI engine (having nothing to do with MS file formats) then that is Incubator-toast. that is a matter of scope, not incubation policy a hypothetical example might help to illustrate the difference: JSP engines are in-scope for tomcat but out-of-scope for xerces. xerces is not allowed a JSP engine as part of that project. but if a new JSP engine wanted by tomcat was created outside the ASF, it would need to come in through the incubator. if it arrives without a external community (for example, because it was developed off-shore by tomcat developers) then it's a simply process of legal sign off. if it arrives with a community then it needs to enter as a podling to ensure that the community gets the help they need to understand how apache works. however, if the xerces developers (let's say for sake of argument) wanted to create a JCP engine at apache but outside tomcat they would need to create a new project. it is now seems more difficult for new projects to be created at apache (the test is subjective and democratic so this is an observation not a rule). it is much easier to create a new project offshore and then bring it in through the incubator. so, the scope issue would (for practical purposes) probably require them to go through the incubator. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox
Yes. A lot of things predate the incubator. I'm not opposed to say an HTTPD-sandbox for experimental HTTPD related stuff. I'm not opposed to a POI-sandbox (indeed we have one but call it scratchpad) for POI-related stuff. However Jakarta-sandbox is SCOPELESS. Go have a scopeless sandbox on sourceforge IMO. If you want to start a whole NEW project then do that in the incubator IMO. Noel J. Bergman wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: projects coming into the ASF go through the Incubator. New things started entirely within the ASF do not, currently. Then there is no NEED for a sandbox. As you know, the sandbox predates the Incubator, and AIUI, the Sandbox exists so as to allow experiments without polluting the respository in such manner that would confuse the public and ourselves about what is real and what is play. There may be other ways in to achieve that goal. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox
-1 on these points 1. There should not be an escape from the pain of the incubator. All new projects must go through the incubator and endure. Commons sandbox was created prior to the incubator. 2. No to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if it is a MEGA-list for all of Jakarta. The commons list is horrible and I get enough email. There is no technical advantage to one mega list for all software. Most problems are NOT oversite problems/discussions. 3. -1 to the form of this proposal which seems overly coarse grained or not nearly detailed (I'm not sure which) -Andy Henri Yandell wrote: On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Simon Kitching wrote: On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 16:28 -0700, Martin Cooper wrote: On 4/7/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Calling a vote to create a Jakarta Sandbox; which entails: * Move Jakarta Commons Sandbox to Jakarta Sandbox * Migrate Jakarta Taglibs Sandbox into Jakarta Sandbox * Create development mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * Create wiki (and migrate wiki bits from j-c-s/j-t-s) * Jakarta Sandbox to initially use the Commons sandbox processes. What would be the constraints on what could go in there? Anything, as long as it's written in or for Java? And who is expected to subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who want to? :) I imagine those working on sandbox components at the moment, plus a handful of people who tend to subscribe to such lists. Out of interest - if we take a list with N mails a day, and have 2 lists with N/2 mails a day, is that something you'd view as more painful or the same amount of pain? I know that when subscribing to Jakarta subprojects I'm not interested in as a coder, I subscribe to both the -user and -dev and funnel them both into the same folder. For my level of interest it's just [EMAIL PROTECTED], not ecs-xxx@ etc. So I'm probably answering more pain to the above, but I've got a simple solution that hides the minor pain increase. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver SuperLink Software, Inc. Java to Excel using POI http://www.superlinksoftware.com/services/poi Commercial support including features added/implemented, bugs fixed. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [RESULT] Remove SVN restrictions
My mailserver kicked a disk so I missed the second vote (though as a point of procedure I didn't qualify my first vote ;-) ). I'd like to register my -0. (Its a -1 this sucks but I've decided not to be a butt about it) And -1 in advance to the lets all have one mega list because we don't get enough email about the things that are not relevant to us mailing list :-) -Andy 26 +1s. Daniel F. Savarese Davanum Srinivas Dave Brosius Felipe Leme Geir Magnusson Jr Henning Schmiedehausen Howard Lewis Ship Luke Beard Mario Ivankovits Mark Thomas Martin van den Bemt Nathan Bubna Noel J. Bergman Oliver Heger Ortwin Gluck Rahul Akolkar Robert Burrell Donkin Rony G. Flatscher Sandy McArthur Sanjiva Weerawarana Sebastian Bazeley Simon Kitching Stefan Bodewig Stephen Colebourne Will Glass-Husain Yoav Shapira Following this email I'll modify things such that we have the following auth groups: jakarta (union of all jakarta-* groups + tapestry) jakarta-pmc (remains the same) jakarta-commons-sandbox (difference of jakarta group and old j-c-s group) jakarta-poi (remains the same) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Remove SVN restrictions
-1. I prefer the POI SVN to remain seperate. Henri Yandell wrote: Vote to remove the SVN barriers within Jakarta such that all jakarta-* groups are merged into the one jakarta group with the exception of jakarta-hivemind, jakarta-slide, jakarta-cactus and jakarta-jmeter under the assumption that they are moving to having their own PMCs. Tapestry is already within its own auth group. [ ] +1 [ ] -1 If your -1 is only for a particular subproject (ie: you don't care what the rest of Jakarta does, feel free to say so). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Remove SVN restrictions
BTW Nick gave the legalistic reason that POI commiters are required to swear that they have never been bound by an exclusionary agreement with Microsoft regarding these file formats. (He was slightly inaccurate in his version as we don't require you to never have SEEN the specs because some were/are released publically w/o restriction, we've never used the word sign without sign or been bound by as employer/member agreements can be binding w/o you signing it) -andy Andrew C. Oliver wrote: -1. I prefer the POI SVN to remain seperate. Henri Yandell wrote: Vote to remove the SVN barriers within Jakarta such that all jakarta-* groups are merged into the one jakarta group with the exception of jakarta-hivemind, jakarta-slide, jakarta-cactus and jakarta-jmeter under the assumption that they are moving to having their own PMCs. Tapestry is already within its own auth group. [ ] +1 [ ] -1 If your -1 is only for a particular subproject (ie: you don't care what the rest of Jakarta does, feel free to say so). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailing List:http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#poi The Apache Jakarta POI Project: http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: adding a link from commons.apache.org to Jakarta Commons?
joke Hey then there could be a [EMAIL PROTECTED] and ALL commons projects across the ASF could be developed on it! I might even subscribe several times in order to load test my mail server ;-) /joke -Andy Henri Yandell wrote: Now Martin's answer becomes very apt - something to sell across the ASF and there will be push back. ie) Good luck. However, I think it's not a bad idea. commons.apache.org as a Federation for the various Commons projects around the ASF - even if I am suggesting that J-C and J should start to merge into each other. Assuming I'm understanding what you mean by virtual front. The idea of a top level Commons is too much a disjoint umbrella. It doesn't fit into the ASF; but the idea of a federation linking the various Commons-like bits together does. Slightly OT, we had someone email the J-C list very recently about a .Net commons, but he's really talking about a semi-automated translation of J-C to .Net. Those J-C libraries may not make entire sense on a new platform. Hen On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: Hmmm. Can we remove the useless blurb at the top and just have commons.a.o rechartered to be a virtual front for commons.*.a.o? Sanjiva. On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 08:43 +0600, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote: Excellent! Sanjiva. On Wed, 2006-03-22 at 19:44 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote: Here you go: http://commons.apache.org/ Hen On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, Henri Yandell wrote: I'll give it a shot. A link from commons.apache.org to Jakarta Commons, XML Commons and WS Commons seems pretty fair. Hen On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, Martin Cooper wrote: On 3/13/06, Sandy McArthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I know Jakarta Commons isn't a TLP but considering the commons.apache.org space is vacant how about addins a blurb about the Jakarta Commons. You'd have to sell this idea across the ASF, not just at Jakarta, and you'll likely get more than a little push back. That space was also the realm of Apache Commons when it existed. -- Martin Cooper It's the convention that you use your domain as your package. The Jakarta Commons code is in the package org.apache.commons, not org.apache.jakarta.commons. Also a number of times I've seen s stack trace and simply reveresed the package name parts and pasted it into a browser in an attempt to find out more about the code. I'm thinking a blurb at the bottom to the effect of: hr/ If you came here looking for Java code in the org.apache.commons packages then go see the a href=http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/;Apache Jakarta Commons/a page. -- Sandy McArthur He who dares not offend cannot be honest. - Thomas Paine - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Invitation
I get spam from myself all the time. Guess its karma for proposing this: (http://sourceforge.net/projects/superxmailer/) as an Apache project one April 1st. -Andy Karthik Kumar wrote: Hi... I'm extremely sorry for this... Someone was spamming :( Karthik On 3/19/06, Jörg Schaible [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: robert burrell donkin wrote: On Sat, 2006-03-18 at 23:32 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote: I'm assuming at the moment that this is a case of somebody spoofing Karthik's address. I doubt the spam is from Karthik - just something that snuck through the spamassassin and various other email controls and happens to be a subscribed address. looks like we're going to need to think about turning on address checking sooner or later this year. probably need to think about ways to allow committers to post from their apache addresses... My standrad address has definitely been used as spoofed address for sending spam and I also remember receiving other spam that claimed to be from some Apache commiters here. - Jörg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members
Ahh, you're American. You do realize Europeans take like 5 month vacations? I don't care a whole lot so long as I'm exempted because I commit in spurts like once every 2-3 years ;-) -Andy Henri Yandell wrote: Previously I'd suggested that we should be cleaning up inactive committers and inactive PMC members - because I'm a bit of a tidy-addict sometimes and I enjoy deleting :) A thread on [EMAIL PROTECTED] convinced me that this was half wrong though - we shouldn't be worrying about cleaning up the large list of inactive committers, they might come back and that would be great. However I do still think we should be cleaning up the inactive PMC members. The PMC represents the active committers entrusted with oversight - so to have inactive committers on there is a detriment to its ability to get the job done. My proposal is that we create a file in SVN in which PMC members can list themselves as being active. After 1 month, failure to appear in that list will result in removal from the PMC. If it goes well we could consider doing it periodically, or just when it feels like the numbers are getting out of sync again. Thoughts? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members
Henri Gomez wrote: 2006/3/16, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ahh, you're American. You do realize Europeans take like 5 month vacations? Hum, 5 weeks in France - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] don't forget the 70 holidays :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Managing communities and emails (was Re: [PROPOSAL] Jakarta Language Components)
Hey... I know what this could be called... Alexandria Henri Yandell wrote: On Wed, 15 Mar 2006, Stephen Colebourne wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: A joke turns into something serious ...but I am all with you guys. As I said: the more I think about it - the more I like the idea! You've got my +1 :) But is that what you mean? (+1 is active not passive) It is what I mean, though it's contextual (is for all of us). In my case it's: If someone were to dig into this and find or create a solution, I would actively test it, hassle infra/whomever, throw in ideas and do a little coding - but I'm not going to be much use if a large chunk of time to code/design is required. This all sounds like a nice idea, and could potentially solve the difficult issues and choices which we seem to be trying to make. But is it practical? Is there a tool out there that does this? Are there one or more people willing to drive this through and make it happen in the next three months? If its possible and is going to happen then we shouldn't do Jakarta Language Components. But if this idea isn't going to happen then JLC should be created. How will we make the decision? It's nice to talk - Robert's mentioned the idea in the past so it's good to have more brains thinking on the idea; however I wouldn't let it get in the way of simpler ideas for dealing with the current state. Presuming it involves a large buy in from the foundation - ie) not something we could do on our own - I'd factor in 6 months to a year to get that large a group moving :) Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Jakarta Wiki] Update of OneCommunityProposals by StephenColebourne
I'd like to note my opposition. I don't have the same vision as you do and do not wish to be distracted by 100 irrelavant emails a day about Commons ABCD. I'm glad Henri posted that reorganization things were being discussed. I would have preferred that he posted a more detailed message as I think others would likely be opposed to such forms of social engineering. Things evolve the way the evolve for a reason. That POI has relatively little to do with Commons-DB is not really a good reason to force us to listen to noise/interference. In radio, you tend to try and pick bands that aren't real close together so that you don't overlap and trample on each other's bandwidth. I had to do this with my wireless network because my neighbor's stuff kept interferring. No I don't think it would be great if we both shared channel 6 and I don't feel like vetting some non-technical irrelevant change by someone who wanted to get their API used by more projects (nevermind that it performs half as well as the JDK implementation and sucks down 100 other dependencies). And I bet [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be REALLY popular...so popular that ALL questions about POI would go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with CC to every email address I've ever had and appologies for not posting on the list but half the time you can't unsubscribe and I really don't want 1 emails a day about stuff I'm not using. If projects share obvious common technical ties then it makes sense, otherwise lets let darwin decide rather than radical social engineering. The PMC should ASK the individual projects if they would like to share a common list and set of committers rather than a top down decision proposed on a list that most committers don't subscribe to (which might indicate...duh...that they don't want to be on a list mostly not about their project). This proposal and any that resemble it are non-starters for me. A lot of this sounds like Commons trying to remake Jakarta in its image. As an alternative why can't commons be top level? The namespace is now free (http://commons.apache.org/). That is all, -Andy Apache Wiki wrote: Dear Wiki user, You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on Jakarta Wiki for change notification. The following page has been changed by StephenColebourne: http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/OneCommunityProposals The comment on the change is: Create page for one community proposals New page: This document proposes ways that we as Jakarta can move towards becoming one community rather than many. ''Note that there is a counter-argument that states that multiple communities within Jakarta is fine. However, at present this conflicts with the ASF board opinion and legal structure.'' == Mission == Jakarta has a less than completely clear mission at the moment. Here is a proposed 'mission statement', please feel free to make alternate suggestions: ''Jakarta provides a diverse set of Java-based components which aim to make day-to-day development easier. The focus is on reusable, small-scale, single-purpose libraries that can be used directly by your application or by larger frameworks.'' It would seem appropriate for whatever mission we choose to be on the top of the Jakarta home page. == Maililng lists == Jakarta has about 16 current project mailing lists. One is very active (commons) and the rest vary from some activity to very little. Mailing lists are significant as they represent the primary means of communication in a project, and thus the primary form of community. Any change to mailing list structure needs careful consideration. The aim of any change is to create better oversight of the mature components. A 'one community' proposal must provide a technique to reduce the mailing list silo effect, where developers are not interested in other lists (and thus other parts of the same community). == Subversion access == Jakarta currently gives out SVN access to individual subprojects. A 'one community' proposal almost certainly involves removing this barrier. Any Jakarta committer can thus commit anywhere in Jakarta. Social norms will still act as a barrer to undesirable behaviour. == Subprojects == As developers we tend to abstract and form hierarchies naturally. Subprojects are a natural outcome of this. However, Jakarta as 'one community' must mean the end to the term 'subprojects'. Instead, a focus on many, many components directly at the Jakarta level is the best viewpoint. == Practicalities == The single-level groupings proposal. Theory - One community split into groups for practicality purposes (everyone together would be chaos!) * Move all commons proper projects up to the jakarta level in SVN and on the website. * Commons level infrastructure/pages is dismantled and moved to jakarta-level * Agree on 4 to 5 groupings for the current subprojects (this is hard!!! it should ideally be driven by the current component owners) * The
Re: Jakarta Sandbox?
Personally I think that commons is a bit TOO open. I'm not sure the Java world can suffer another project designed to throw us into circular dependency hell. These little mini-component projects that all depend on each other combined with the inherent crappiness of Java classloading (.NET does this better) are just misery to those of us who have to work with them and support real people using them. I don't think it is deep end shallow end -- it is that these are all interdependent and versioned seperately and then end up with different parts of apache requiring vers 1 and others requiring 1.1 and 1 having a horrible bug in it. -andy Henri Yandell wrote: On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Rahul Akolkar wrote: On 3/7/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Rahul Akolkar wrote: snip/ I hope to help in dealing with roC. Yep, that's my chief point on the thirty four pieces, not two pieces - the roC still needs solutions. Yet more where we should be thinking about our project (Jakarta) and not just making one step (JLC) and being happy with it. snap/ I expressed a similar opinion in response to the JLC proposal on commons-dev. Given that we're in this mess with intermingling threads on commons-dev@ and general@, forgive me for cross-posting that as a hyperlink: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-devm=114166343620440w=2 Yep, I agree with your email there. Sorry for snapping, Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver SuperLink Software, Inc. Java to Excel using POI http://www.superlinksoftware.com/services/poi Commercial support including features added/implemented, bugs fixed. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta Sandbox?
Henri Yandell wrote: I think there's pretty much wide-spread agreement to the pain of that issue, in and out of Commons. Stephen's suggestion for the JLC ones are that they would not have any dependencies (currently they don't). The 'deep end' stuff tends to depend on these, ie) there will be far more roC-JLC dependencies than internal roC dependencies. Also the Commons components (JLC especially) maintain backwards compat within minor versions (as we all do) so the only times you should be having this pain is when Apache Foo depends on vers 1.0 and Apache Bar depends on vers 2.0. Lang (1.x, 2.x) and Collections (1.x, 2.x, 3.x) are the only ones that spring to mind that have more than one major version release. So I'm not sure the issue is as painful as your memory paints it. Now when the container depends on commons, that seems to cause more pain (cf commons-logging complaints). No the commons issue is pretty painful in large environments and with the wild of live support. Yes Tomcat's dependence on commons-logging is a pain. I'd feel more comfortable with a single versioned release rather than a bunch more pieces that have to be put together. Let them live together and die together. -Andy Hen On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Personally I think that commons is a bit TOO open. I'm not sure the Java world can suffer another project designed to throw us into circular dependency hell. These little mini-component projects that all depend on each other combined with the inherent crappiness of Java classloading (.NET does this better) are just misery to those of us who have to work with them and support real people using them. I don't think it is deep end shallow end -- it is that these are all interdependent and versioned seperately and then end up with different parts of apache requiring vers 1 and others requiring 1.1 and 1 having a horrible bug in it. -andy Henri Yandell wrote: On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Rahul Akolkar wrote: On 3/7/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Rahul Akolkar wrote: snip/ I hope to help in dealing with roC. Yep, that's my chief point on the thirty four pieces, not two pieces - the roC still needs solutions. Yet more where we should be thinking about our project (Jakarta) and not just making one step (JLC) and being happy with it. snap/ I expressed a similar opinion in response to the JLC proposal on commons-dev. Given that we're in this mess with intermingling threads on commons-dev@ and general@, forgive me for cross-posting that as a hyperlink: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-devm=114166343620440w=2 Yep, I agree with your email there. Sorry for snapping, Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver SuperLink Software, Inc. Java to Excel using POI http://www.superlinksoftware.com/services/poi Commercial support including features added/implemented, bugs fixed. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver SuperLink Software, Inc. Java to Excel using POI http://www.superlinksoftware.com/services/poi Commercial support including features added/implemented, bugs fixed. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Jakarta Language Components
Stephen Colebourne wrote: Reposted (edited) from original commons proposal. Currently this proposal has general, though not unanimous, support. A vote thread may follow this thread if the mood remains positive. ... Jakarta Language Components will: - develop multiple independent components I will vote -1 based soley on item 1 of the list for the reasons I've already explained. I think that having ANOTHER jak-commons is a fundementally bad idea. If these are truly enahancements to JavaSE, they are one community, and share a mailinglist...then make them one distribution and version them together. - each component will have no dependencies - each component will have no configuration - each component provides an extension to the JavaSE - code judged by would it be out of place in the JavaSE - a component typically has a broad API (many callable methods) - each method typically does relatively little processing - have mailing lists (language-user/language-dev) - not have a sandbox - use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ML (new) for cross group issues Stephen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Differences
Approach. Use struts if you're using JSP Use Tapestry if you want to attach logic with div tags As for turbineCheshire cat grin...a lot of people use it with velocity. Use Cocoon is you live breathe and die XML and don't mind the extreme joy that comes from writing web pages in XSLT with its user friendly regular expression-like syntax Yes struts can use things that aren't JSP but is not OPTIMAL for that. Tapestry is well pretty different (I make no bones that I like it best for webapps) Turbine ...Cheshire cat grin Cocoon can theoretically be a toaster if you configure it right, but has the largest learning curve of the 4. I understand why you came here to ask this, but its not really a good place to ask (its more of an administrative list). You'd be better going and asking each of the projects (who will probably send you links to their website). Generally these messages devolve into flamebait because each project feels very passionate about their approach (enough to devote real time to developing it in fact) so asking them all in a room together what's the difference is well...often not pretty. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Thiago Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 04:53:52 -0300 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Differences Hi ppl, What's the main difference between Struts, Tapestry and Turbine? Thanks in advance! Thiago Souza - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Just in case you're curious
Everything is back on the private list again. Odd to discuss including more people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status
Dude...three words: switch to decaf ;-) -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: The Apache Software Foundation, Committer Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 05:04:32 +0900 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:27:30 -0500 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: In HTTPD/APR world. mostly Apache MEMBERS = Apache COMMITTERS. (OH, you pointed it our, 6 months ago ;-)! You must mean HTTPD PMC Members ~= HTTPD Committers more ore less. Yes. Obvious. HTTPD (Apache HTTP WebServer Project) does not have *general* list. That's all. # Jakarta should have it's own way, i hope. If Jakarta can't have such, # the board would be *wrong* ... that's all. Size matters. This is obviously not feasible for Jakarta as we are demonstrating so aptly. Wow, Great. Size matter? Could you please describe the committer*ness* @ http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html ?? ... more ?? ;-) Can you describe the all the committers/PMC members@ http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html , by the way? ;-) You/I can see the difference. Yep. This is the root of the evil. This *MUST* be fixed. I'd like to see the jakarta XXX PMC groups to be organized into subgroups realms. Jakarta has it's own brand. You can have either Jakarta POI or Apache POI, i guess... subsets of the group. .. thus would be integrated into the jakarta PMC in the near future. This is essentially the formalization of how it is of course. Okeydokey Suffices. APR/HTTPD guys would be gratified, i hope. Could you please explain why the discussion lasts forever? First, we're trying too many people come to a consensus on a non-technical issue. Second, because we're trying to over-manage and uber-manage things. Yes, i know that non-technical issue should be open. It will only get worse. It would be even worse if it were in private. I can not trust you ;-) . (joke) so I do not make such an issue to be in private :-) // nothing to be got worse My point was merely to point out the puppet strings, not to join the puppets. ;-) Puppet? Andy? ... are you puppet? ... of what? I am sure that you are *far from* the puppet of XYZ .. ... as you are the puppet of the united states :-). I am sure that you guys are wrong about the interpretations of the comments from the board members. I'd like to see the board members opinions here @ [EMAIL PROTECTED], directly. ... Critical issue... maybe ... D'OH We, Jakarta-n, should *not* be humiliated by the BOARD members ;-) I'd like to have the opinions from board members directly here. This might improve the PMCness of the Jakarta, i hope. -- I'd like to know why the PMC list @ jakarta *WAS* full of disputes over the TLP-ness of XYZ ... Andy, could you please explain this more? Thanks, godness -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status
If I were the chair of the Jakarta PMC and a board member and favored seeing Jakarta split up into TLPs, I'd do this: 1. Put everyone on the PMC 2. Get them in a reorganization type discussion Because the bulk of the 700? committers at Apache are in Jakarta and the bulk of the discussion has no technical basis whatsoever to guide it, it would eventually get frustrating and the participants would come to the inevitable conclusion to which I wanted to guide them: Jakarta is unsustainable. Once the deed was done I could even step aside and watch it burn. However, if that were not my position and I were that same person, I'd guide them to a middle ground where Jakarta was more of an administrative body which handles Pan-Jakarta issues and each project had its own PMC responsible for its own issues (releases,etc). This would of course achieve much the same thing as TLPs without all of the constitutional convention-like discussion which will inevitably move to the meaning of democracy, meritocracy and finally to some kind of equation to Hitler or Nazism. (http://cbbrowne.com/info/godwin.html, http://www.eff.org/Net_culture/Folklore/Humor/godwins.law) The first would of course assume that I favored indirect manipulation as opposed to just stating my viewpoint. http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/946.html This isn't intended to really contribute to the discussion since I doubt I can change its inevitable path at this point. It is only to provide me with the empty satisfaction of saying I told you so later. ;-) Have fun. I'm mostly skimming now. Someone let me know if I miss anything that actually requires my attention. -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status
In HTTPD/APR world. mostly Apache MEMBERS = Apache COMMITTERS. (OH, you pointed it our, 6 months ago ;-)! You must mean HTTPD PMC Members ~= HTTPD Committers more ore less. Yes. Size matters. This is obviously not feasible for Jakarta as we are demonstrating so aptly. You/I can see the difference. Yep. This is the root of the evil. This *MUST* be fixed. I'd like to see the jakarta XXX PMC groups to be organized into subgroups realms. Jakarta has it's own brand. You can have either Jakarta POI or Apache POI, i guess... subsets of the group. .. thus would be integrated into the jakarta PMC in the near future. This is essentially the formalization of how it is of course. Suffices. APR/HTTPD guys would be gratified, i hope. Could you please explain why the discussion lasts forever? First, we're trying too many people come to a consensus on a non-technical issue. Second, because we're trying to over-manage and uber-manage things. It will only get worse. It would be even worse if it were in private. My point was merely to point out the puppet strings, not to join the puppets. ;-) -Andy -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open. And you know there's a difference. :) Not to me. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open. And you know there's a difference. :) What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive? The recipe to the secret Jakarta Eggnog? I thought Jon took that with him... I think it is: Lots of expensive Bze Cheap store-bought eggnog There... Impeach me. I've divulged the state secrets. -Andy That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested in the subject on the PMC. Then all can participate, and if we discuss something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have to be on Google. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
YES! -- And members, and board, and incubator, and Move it into the open. -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Aaron Bannert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:11:02 -0800 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:58:53AM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? Do you believe there are discussions happening on PMC lists that should be happening on public dev lists? -aaron - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Well, saying please and asking nicely had no effect. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: mvdb.com Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 22 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0100 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of that PMC. Mvgr, Martin On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Now the conversation is here, that is the solution. You're welcome. -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue to do work, such as voting, but follow up. geir Heads up, FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be voting/discussing here. While I'm not sure I agree, out of courtesy, I will vote privately for: * PMC nominations/discussion * legally precarious issues * things too likely to cause me to get slashdotted. I favor openness, but the peanut gallery isn't helpful. Pointedly, I will not discuss the organization, structure, software, etc. of Jakarta on [EMAIL PROTECTED] I will discuss it here. This is my personal choice. I choose to work in the open. I choose to be googled. I volunteered for it in fact. -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:45 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the board's list [in the committers/ cvs module]. I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page. When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people? Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake. I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a batch vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one. This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists. I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue to do work, such as voting, but follow up. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary. While closing out everyone else. Like those who are not yet committers. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote: BIG SNIP Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: ... sensitive things should be on the PMC list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list. /end Geir What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are ashamed of it, don't do open source community. There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes. If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive because of the confusion that it sews. My hope was for us to get our act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it as a group. IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make things clear and non-confusing. For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source? What do I mean by that: ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit the code to do it. ASF used(?) to be run by commiters. Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for commiters, but does not committ itself?. What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office. The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where have they CVSed latelly. Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary. Please re-read. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-) (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti) Andrew means Strong and Manly. Fairly gender specific. http://www.andythenamebender.com/name-meanings/Andrew.htm I like this: Origin: Shakespearean Meaning: 'Twelfth Night', also called 'What You Will' Sir Andrew Aguecheek. Though I like to think of myself more as Feste albeit my girth gives more truth to the former. ;-) -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: The Apache Software Foundation, Committer Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:16:44 +0900 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:10:27 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant. +1, Andrew seems to have boundless energy in this regard ;-) ! It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-) (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC membership : I fear additional responsibility
Yep :) That's the interesting part here, and breaking the Jakarta up doesn't solve it - it just pushes the problem upwards to the board. +1 -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open. What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive? The recipe to the secret Jakarta Eggnog? I thought Jon took that with him... I think it is: Lots of expensive Bze Cheap store-bought eggnog There... Impeach me. I've divulged the state secrets. -Andy That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested in the subject on the PMC. Then all can participate, and if we discuss something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have to be on Google. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
Radical view: allow the subprojects to send 1-2 delegates to the PMC and require each subproject to send one or die. This would size the PMC, assure that heart attack in the crowd syndrome doesn't take place and make the discussion more manageable. Have the sub projects manage their own policy for who to send and for how long under threat of being closed. This also prevents PMC for life syndrome and makes sure that the PMC serves not only the boards interests but the committers of the projects. It also puts pressure on PMC members to keep discussions public. -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:26:44 -0800 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project? Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have? -Harish These comments are going to be (like anyone's would be) colored by my own personal experiences during the development of Jakarta -- including my ignorance of a lot of the details in subprojects that I'm not an active participant. But it should give you a little feel for the history of the place. The gist of the creation of Jakarta was around three facts: * Apache wasn't an incorporated entity (this is about four years ago now), but wanted to be -- and was formally becoming the Apache Software Foundation. * Apache had a project to build a servlet container (Apache JServ) at a website called java.apache.org which created a trademark-use issue around java. (I was a committer on Apache JServ, which is how I originally got involved in open source software.) * Sun wanted to contribute, and Apache wanted to accept, the source code for the servlet and JSP implementation called the Java Servlet Development Kit, and later published by Apache as Tomcat 3.0. Just as an item of slight historical interest, Jakarta was the name of the conference room at Sun where a lot of the early discussions took place. An organizational framework to focus on developing open source server side Java stuff was created to host these initiatives, and other related subprojects got proposed and added to the mix. As the number of Jakarta committers scaled from the original 10 or so to where we are today (hundreds), the original charter has become, umm, somewhat stretched. Ironically, it didn't take long at all for the scope of that original charter to get exceeded, because one of the little nuggets of code that was included in the original Tomcat contribution was a pure-Java build tool (to replace make) called Ant ... As more and more subprojects were added, there were some inevitable cases of overlapping scope, and overlapping implementations of the same ideas. One of the best things we've done (IMHO) was purposely creating a subproject (jakarta-commons) focused on making small, focused, reusable packages, and encouraging the larger projects to use them. Not only has this been successful within Jakarta -- there's been quite a lot of cross-fertilization among the web app frameworks, for example -- it's also created a fairly rich library of funcational packages that are widely used elsewhere. But one could really argue whether something like Commons Digester (originally designed as an easy-to-use tool to parse XML configuration files) really fit the Jakarta charter. Over time, there have been more than a few, err, voluminous discussions about how to scale up Jakarta from an organizational perspective, and whether the fundamental organizing principle was still the correct one. Does a focus on server side stuff exclude what could be some really interesting open source projects? Does a focus on Java make sense when just across the website there are things like xml.apache.org that are focused on a technology, not on an implementation language? Does it make sense to have community type projects that host individual software package projects at all? Coupled with these increasing concerns (at the ASF board level) about the ability of any oversight group (a responsibility delegated to PMCs in the ASF organizational structure), several original Jakarta subprojects (or even sub-sub-projects in some cases
Re: Just in case you're curious
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:01:11 -0500 (EST) To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious subjects have been: how the PMC should work organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so far] how to ensure oversight of jakarta general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness [it shouldn't seems the end result here] how to get more CLA's signed by committers log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a bit Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads did anyway. As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Hen On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion of the things that are concerning us. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. -Andy geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on something. That's commonly known as FUD. I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? I'm not sure you do. The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ironic. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here. No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness isn't always convenient. -Andy geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember what you said. You said that decisions were being made in private. Oh yes, I hallucinated the [VOTE] threads too. Damn those hallucinations. I hallucinated the refactoring proposal and everything. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? I'm not sure you do. But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is you making things up. No Gier, take a deep breath and determine whether you distinguish yourself with this conversation. I shall give you the honor of the last word. -Andy The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ironic. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here. No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness isn't always convenient. And thinking things through isn't either. But sometimes it must be done. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Just in case you're curious
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS
On 12/5/03 2:45 AM, Martin Poeschl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: So far it sounds to me like JCS is only used by Turbine and that only the Turbiners really care about it. it is indirectly used by turbine ... that's why the discussion started ... it is used by torque, ojb, hibernate, ok, they are all db related .. but i still do not think jcs is db related .. I think Hibernate is switching to Jgroups anyhow. Thus I don't see why it doesn't just get flattened into Turbine and just consider it one more turbine service. please go to the jcs site and RTFM Been there. That¹s why I asked the question. As far as oversight, who on the PMC is on this sub-sub-subproject? i am So where do you want it to land? Where do you feel it should go in the mean time. we should only support sub-sub project if there is a strong relation to the sub-project ... e.g turbine-fulcrum (avalon components for turbine) However, I regard that as more than likely just a component of Turbine. More than likely the community is more or less the same. -Andy * before it is mentioned, on POI we call POIFS and HSSF subprojects but they're really just components. They're called subprojects by tradition, granted it is ambiguous but I'll leave language pedantry to RMS. ;-) what is the definition of a sub-sub project?? Community/technical division. The difference between POI and HTTPD only at a lower level. There aren't any shared committers between POI and HTTPD. POI isn't required for HTTPD and HTTPD isn't required for POI and if POI were housed as part of HTTPD or HTTPD part of POI it wouldn't make a great deal of sense. This is an exaggeration of course but you get the idea. -Andy martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS
You're kind of being excessively abrasive especially given that I'm just trying to understand the problem as a responsible PMC member. Given that I'm trying to find out about the subject despite having no ties to Turbine or JCS, I'd expect a little less of an obnoxious response. This post certainly doesn't make me want to volunteer to understand the matter or work towards its resolution. On 12/5/03 1:06 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 23:35, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: So far it sounds to me like JCS is only used by Turbine and that only the Turbiners really care about it. Thus I don't see why it doesn't just get flattened into Turbine and just consider it one more turbine service. +--+ | Don't | | feed the | | Troll! | +--+ || || || / \__ Come on Andrew, even you can do better than that! Obviously you haven't read s single article in this thread, did you?. JCS is neither a Turbine Service, nor is it used by Turbine at all. The fact that it has been developed under the Turbine label, well it just happened. But JCS neither depends on Turbine nor the other way round. So IMHO it is time to move this (IMHO quite decent) project to a place where it gets much more attention. Regards Henning -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS
So far it sounds to me like JCS is only used by Turbine and that only the Turbiners really care about it. Thus I don't see why it doesn't just get flattened into Turbine and just consider it one more turbine service. However, if it DOES have a community or at the very least someone who loves cares and feeds it, then commons sounds like a reasonable place to build a community. As far as oversight, who on the PMC is on this sub-sub-subproject? From a Jakarta PMC perspective, I think that we should cease to support Sub-sub-projects with the exception of commons.* -Andy * before it is mentioned, on POI we call POIFS and HSSF subprojects but they're really just components. They're called subprojects by tradition, granted it is ambiguous but I'll leave language pedantry to RMS. ;-) On 12/4/03 12:59 PM, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So your preference, as the development-community of JCS, is for a top-level-jakarta project, ie) at the log4j level? If so, we can take that up with the PMC and see what views there are. As the development community, your (and James) views count a lot, though the smallness of community is the worrying thing. Hen On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Aaron Smuts wrote: The core of JCS is ready for a release. The project is basically a hub for 4 types of plugins, or what are called auxiliaries in JCS: memory, disk, lateral distribution, and remote sever. It requires that you use a memory plugin, but the others are optional. For each type of plugin there is an efficient implementation that people are using. These include: LRU memory manager, indexed disk cache, TCp lateral distribution, and RMI remote server. There are experimental versions of each type of plugin in an experimental source directory: a b-tree disk cache, a database disk cache, a javagroups lateral, a MRU memory manager, and others. The core of JCS is then the hub and these 4 non-experimental plugins. Currently there is only one small bug in the lateral cache recovery process, that I will fix very soon. There are additional features that are mostly extensions of the plugins. I wanted to clean up the group handling features, but this is not crucial. I wanted to add run time defragmentation to the indexed disk cache. I also want to implement clustering on the remote server. Basically, this will involve hooking up remote servers via the TCP lateral cache. All that has to be done is to work out a way to prevent circular calls for there to be clustering. The client can already fail over. I'm not sure what all the levels are called, but if we put JCS at the level of log4j, I guess as a jakarta subproject, and then issue a release, we can find out what else people might want and some more people may be interested in contributing. JCS does not need an overhaul or any significant amount of work on the core features. Most conceivable future development will involve tuning, bug fixes, improving configuration, creating sample applications, and extension development. Aaron - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework
I say that Howard Lewis Ship is a skilled coder and community builder and if he wants to give it a try with HiveMind, while the topic bores me personally, I'll give him my support. If he does want to collaborate with the Avalonites (Avaloners?) then he should be encouraged to do so; however, if his approach is different enough to warrant its own show then I encourage him to do that as well. I trust his judgment to that effect. Personally - I'm interested in getting some feedback from Howard on a number of question I've posted to him on this list and remain hopeful that he or other members of the HiveMind team will leverage the pool of opinions and talent over on Avalon - as a mutually interesting exercise (just as members of that same pools are interested in leveraging the content and knowlege from the HiveMind team). As far as I can se the question of collaboration remains completely open - after all - no discussion has taken place todate either here on over on avalon. I think it would be good to at least do some exploration of mutual interests - don't you? I feel a Jon coming on. Your itch not mine -- However, after your private rants to (at?) me I kind of doubt how genuine this much more eloquent email is. In truth, a rather virgin Hivemind would (ironically considering the name) be consumed by Avalon rather than affecting Avalon. You may find emailing me personally to be rather disappointing as I say pretty much the same things though sometimes more succinctly. Personally, I feel your effort is more likely intent to prevent an alternative to Avalon. I prefer to see Hivemind established as a community (as far as I know Howard is the only member of the community ATM) before exploring as you say. I see no reason to deprive Howard of the opportunity to establish Hivemind and build a community. I do however apologize for attributing the email containing the following statement to you. It was actually from Danny Angus, however the sentiment appears to coincide with yours wouldn't you agree? The danger of having an Avalon alternative @jakarta is that it will be seen by people as somehow being Jakarta's favoured solution, rather than as one of two (or more) alternatives promoted by Avalon. If you see what I mean. The truth is that the Avalon brand is nothing to be sought while Jakarta is. Being consumed by Avalon will, of course, make building a community more difficult. While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not ready for Avalon either. I would be against its entry into Jakarta ATM (and I doubt Howard would propose it). However, I think it is ripe for foundry at jakarta commons or some place appropriate for starting a community. Obviously it should be watched for eventual entry as a Jakarta project. Howard is obviously now qualified to sponsor it in the incubator himself (as I've pretty much vowed never to incubate anything ever again, I'd rather focus my efforts outside of Apache than go through that quagmire of bureaucratic procedure again**). I do not see a reason while my stating this creates the level of personal angst for you that it more obviously did in your private mails to me nor do I see the need for the duplicity of posting a more frank and angry mail to me followed by one also on the list. I really don't have time for two threads and am rather conceptually against the idea. Though I suppose I could combine my replies on-list if you prefer. -Andy ** Although what a certain person did to avoid it was wrong although I can't say anything about it as I don't think it was on the public list although it damn well should have been. Stephen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework
On 12/1/03 2:02 AM, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: End of discussion. Excellent. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework
On 12/1/03 2:47 AM, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought you ended our discussion? Okay I guess not. My point continues to be that I don't think Howard should be forced and that if HiveMind builds a community, it is perfectly welcome here regardless of cooperation with Avalon. Avalon has no stranglehold on frameworks. If you agree with me then why is this so emotional to you? Nevermind, lets end this, you get the last word. ;-) -Andy Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Perhaps you missed that part of my message. No - I didn't miss anything. What you could do is try to add some rationalization around your arguments instead of making negative assertions about a project you are not involved with and are not interested in. The rest of your email is snipped because it is simply diverging from the real question concerning potential. It seems to me your trying to derail that potential. Well, sorry, I'm not going to be derailed. I have genuine interests in what happens here and I would like to hear from Howard about what he wants and what he thinks the potential synergy could play out with mutual benefit. Stephen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework / status
Ear is better, mostly itches now. Don't think I blew the drum as I can hear fine. However I now have a cold too. :-( -Andy On 11/26/03 8:03 AM, Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm trying to track down that myself. I need to give my friends at WebCT a call, to see where they are with the software grant. Between that, ApacheCon, a bad cold (how's that ear, Andy?) and the 9-to-5 (oh, and painters in my house) I'm falling a little behind. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/ http://javatapestry.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: Tim O'Brien [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:29 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework +1 - there is room enough. On a related note, what is the current status of HiveMind? the site is still blanked out in Commons. Could someone please update general as to the current situation re: HiveMind? Andrew C. Oliver wrote: I don't think that Avalon has any right to have a stranglehold on all service frameworks. I also must say that I hate the come discuss this in 'our' house approach to collaboration. One size does not fit all and Avalon has shown over the years that this is especially true for it. I say that Howard Lewis Ship is a skilled coder and community builder and if he wants to give it a try with HiveMind, while the topic bores me personally, I'll give him my support. If he does want to collaborate with the Avalonites (Avaloners?) then he should be encouraged to do so; however, if his approach is different enough to warrant its own show then I encourage him to do that as well. I trust his judgment to that effect. We have Struts, Turbine, and Avalon. We have Velocity, JSP, XSLT, etc. We have commons digester and XMLBeans... None are preferred and BTW Avalon isn't even preferred as Tomcat, for instance, doesn't use it. To suggest that there can be only one true service framework is misguided, IMHO. -Andy On 11/18/03 12:49 AM, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote: I'm moniroting the avalon dev list. Howard: As mentioned earlier there are some things that would be interesting to discuss over on the avalon dev list. Perhaps you could put forward you thoughts about the potential or lack thereoff on collaboration. I think some good points have already been put on the table for working together and for working apart - but just at the moment these thoughts are only on the table and no real discussion is happening as a result. I think that could change if we were to go beyond mutual monotoring. Cheers, Steve. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/ http://javatapestry.blogspot.com -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen McConnell Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've put up a limited copy of the HiveMind documentation on my personal home page: Howard: Are you open to the idea of discussing some mutual areas of interest? There are a number of aspects of the work you are doing that are complimentary with the work on-going in Avalon, and several areas in Avalon which after review your material are complimentary with your own efforts. Can I get you to sign up to the avalon dev list bacause I would very much like to discuss this further together with other members of the Avalon crew. Details for the Avalon dev list are available at the following URL: http://avalon.apache.org/mailing-lists.html I'm looking forward to hearing from you. Cheers, Stephen. --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
Presently they give up reading it and email me personally. -Andy On 7/20/03 11:57 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The nice thing about the current approach is that you can't get to see the links w/o having to have read enough of the first page to understand that you have to click through to the next page. Otherwise, people will just skip down until they find what they want and then have missed what is some good prelim info for our community. It's not much of a burden on people, as once you've done it, you just know to skip to bottom and go to the mail for new lists... geir On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 11:48 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:33:20 -0400 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't advise changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Yes, that's what i was trying to hint at :) I know this and the purpose. Alternatively, e.g.-site/mail.html GUIDELINE(#guideline) (brief description) . Tomcat User List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline(jump to #guideline) Dev List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline .. This might be enough, I think. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HELP WANTED or The merge is on! HSSF- now with improvedperformance for your pleasure!
of parallel arrays.
These arrays are sized as needed.
private final static int DEFAULT_ROWS=1;
private final static int DEFAULT_COLS=256;
List celltype = null; //array of HSSFCEll.CELL_TYPE_XXX tells us which
//arrays to use
List xfs = null; // array of style types. Index of XF record
List numericcells = null; // numeric and Shared string indicies.
// list of lists
List formulaptgs = null; // array of arrays of PTGS
List stringvals = null; // array of actual string/formula string vals
IntList populatedRows = null; //indicies of populated rows
int physCells; //physical number of cells
The algorythm is kind of complicated...but it goes like this:
Insert cell:
If (cell.rownum celltype.size()) {
add the row number to populatedRows
grow celltype, xfs, numericcells, formulaptgs,stringvals by 1.
(each are a List of ArrayList, IntList or DoubleList with a length ==
number of rows)
}
ctRow = The list at element rownum of the cell to insert from celltype
xfRow = The list at element rownum of the cell to insert from xfs
If (cell.colnum ctRow.size()) {
grow ctRow, xfRow to size of cell.colnum +1
}
If its a number:
nmRow = numericcells.get(cell.rownum);
//(nmRow is a DoubleList)
nmRow.set(cell.colnum, cell.value);
If its a string:
nmRow = numericcells.get(cell.rownum);
//(nmRow is a DoubleList)
nmRow.set(cell.colnum, cell.lablesstindex);
If its a formula:
value goes in numericcells
string value goes in stringvals
ptgs go in formulaptgs
Note that I've also cleaned up the boarder largely between the model and
usermodel as a side effect!
The great thing is the nastiness is kept in VRA because outside you use the
iterator (in VRA) which knows how to traverse this. You can also user
getters and setters of course which also know how..
By my benchmarks and those of others show this is not only more efficient
with memory but is on average much faster. I also think that once stage 2
happens we'll REALLY fly because the garbage collector will be out of our
way.
I've also recently acquired more professional grade profilers which I'll use
once the unit tests pass.
I suggest the HSSFTests as the place to start (encapsulates most of the
basic functionality and then some into a test suite).
Please pipe up with your thoughts or suggestions. And if you are a lurker
wanting to get involved this is the best time/place. We have a very clear
objective, and its often easier to learn in a debugger with a big red bar of
a unit test result than staring at the code wondering what you should do.
Thanks,
-Andy
cc: general just in case any volunteers are interested.
cc: I'll blog this too ;-)
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
-
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Re: http://www.apache.org/foundation/projects.html
POI is absolutely server side. It has some uses on the client but the whole design is aimed at the servlet stream. Otherwise it would be based on java.io.File -andy On 7/18/03 8:46 PM, Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.apache.org/foundation/projects.html ... Jakarta = Server-side Java monologue I did not know that Jakarta-Poi is server-side java based product :D /monologue -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. Rather, Java based total solution in Apache.Org or Jakarta is an umbrella for Java related Apache integration efforts might be preferable. Any thoughts? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache != HTTPD
On 7/17/03 2:04 PM, Alex McLintock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have another related problem Recruitment Agent: Have you done Struts? Me: Yes I have done some Struts. I can point you at websites I have built with Apache Struts. Agent: Is that the same as Jakarta Struts? Me: explanation of the ASF and its projects I think this whole Jakarta brand has backfired and is diluting the Apache name. But few people seem to care about the ASF's professional image Alex On POI we've been discussing (on occasion) a new top level project called fileformats (or something like that) and things like POI and other things that will evolve around manipulating file formats could go there. -Andy Available for java/perl/C++/web development in London, UK or nearby. Apache FOP, Cocoon, Turbine, Struts,XSL:FO, XML, Tomcat, JSP http://www.OWAL.co.uk/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
crosspollination, as these kind of people will see beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.) The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on both the original doc and the translations in sync. Any ideas? Regards -- Santiago Gala High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com) http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
In my plan this gets delayed until Tetsuya qualifies for membership ;-) -Andy On 7/14/03 4:37 PM, robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i personally think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed both inside and outside. andrew is right there needs to be a discussion involving anyone outside apache with opinions and experience they'd be willing to contribute but i also agree with taking part of the discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] not only do the issues raised cut across projects but also unless some members step up and offer leadership, this project will never get off the ground. - robert On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: -1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should keep the discussion on a list open to everyone! On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of introducing an Internationalization project into incubation. It seems the consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache project, rather a Jakarta subproject. (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message on [EMAIL PROTECTED] which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message filters on [i18n] on both lists to follow the discussions in either place) A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is included in my message below. I don't mind spearheading the incubation myself. Is there anyone else interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry into incubation? TIA. Robert Simpson Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor? Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote: snip I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are non-English-speaking members in Jakarta, not just committers and other users of the code. i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make. but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin. i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested by Tetsuya Kitahata. - robert Original Message Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example) or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation would have to be the primary document, and any conflicts could be identified and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement could also handle proposed additions (the XML equivalent of I, a Spanish translator, propose to add a new section here), which could be commented on (ex: that section would be better placed over there) and/or voted on by translators of other languages, etc
Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
On 7/11/03 12:36 PM, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Robert Simpson escribió: David Taylor has already anwered WRT code. I was thinking mostly about having a pool of people who can translate and are more or less cross project. For instance, I can translate English to Spanish, and I'm a committer in Jetspeed, but I could also translate, say, parts of the tomcat documents that I'm reading, or some XML stuff I'm interested into. Or even docs for Apache modules. Now you're talking! The good part is that it would help the whole community, both WRT translation efforts and WRT crosspollination, as these kind of people will see beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.) +1 The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on both the original doc and the translations in sync. We're trying to do this on POI, we just have a shortage of people. We've already got the source organization. Anyone who wants to help translate will be given commit access pretty quickly. Any ideas? Regards -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Possibly Include HTMLParser Jar in contrib code?
We're not allowed to have LGPL dependencies per the Apache board. They have a legal concern with the LGPL section 6 and the FSF is unwilling to clarify the issue although I've personally written them in the past they apparently are not filled with a spirit of free sharing with regards to information about the meaning of their licenses. While they are not obligated to respond it would have certainly have been a courteous thing to do. Thus far I have attempted to write Their lawyer : Eben Moglen Their RMS : Richard Stallman Their gnumail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] None have yielded a response. Thus I regard them as unfriendly at the least. While I do not agree with the conservative interpretation of the LGPL by the ASF, I totally agree that legal ambiguity is a bad thing and understand why they wish to avoid this. Anyone who can lend assistance in getting into contact with them with regards to clarifying the LGPL license's terms as they apply to java (in particular jars and imports) such that we can LGPL libraries, I'd be much appreciative and would be in your debt. Thanks, -Andy On 7/11/03 9:31 AM, epugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, For a couple months now, I have periodically had to post a patch adding more unicode mappings for the HSSFCellUtil contrib class: http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-poi/src/contrib/src/org/apache/poi/hss f/usermodel/contrib/HSSFCellUtil.java?rev=1.6content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs- markup. If you look at the bottom, there is a static population of unicodeMappings. Now, since I am lazy, I didn't want to type them all in myself. Well, I finally found a library called HTMLParser (http://htmlparser.sourceforge.net/) that has a Translate class that does the unicode translation I need: http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/htmlparser/htmlparser/src/org /htmlparser/util/Translate.java?rev=1.28content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-marku p Would it be better to post a patch file that includes this jar, even though it would mean another dependency, or should I just lift the code for this class? I need to add another 10 unicode mappings, and really would like a better solution! Sincerely, Eric Pugh - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: XML Beans advertised on Jakarta ... Re: Vote for XMLBeansproposal
On 7/9/03 1:49 PM, robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd object to that personally. We link projects which were in Jakarta historically and have become top level projects, but we do not link all of the XML projects. I'd object to that not only on practical concerns but with the logic Then I'd like POI linked from the XML site ;-) why shouldn't POI be linked from the XML site as well as the jakarta one? Maybe because its not an XML project under the XML PMC and has never been such? Maybe because the leftnav would get very long if every project on Apache was listed on the every other one? Though its fine with me... ;-) - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
From the proposal I was not able to determine *what it intends to do*.. Besides that, the criteria for helping is IMHO a bit discouraging. Granted its hard to help if you've never been outside of Kansas, but maybe Dorothy darn tootin cares about i18n and wants to make sure that toto can use her application... Perhaps there is something left for her to do even if she only speaks 'merican. -Andy On 7/5/03 12:16 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, Robert, Personally, I am interested in this project, but I am not a *member* in ASF. (Just a *committer* in jakarta) How about posting your message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?? (subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Maybe, you can find the ASF *member* outside of jakarta. Here's a list of the number of *committer* and *member* in ASF umbrella ( Originally created by Steven Noels) -- Amount of committers: 677 Name,committers,members ant,34,8 apr,42,32 avalon,80,15 cocoon,60,14 commons,10,10 db,35,9 embperl,13,6 httpd,145,111 incubator,26,12 jakarta,314,35 james,13,3 java,7,1 maven,25,4 mod_dtcl,9,4 modperl,18,7 tcl,9,4 ws,86,11 xml,259,28 -- There are only 35 potential Mentors (I mean, sponsors) in jakarta, as you can see. If you are confident you can build a powerful community, IMHO you do not have to stick to seek the Mentor in jakarta. I hope this mail might help you to some extent. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - On 3 Jul 2003 15:23:10 - (Subject: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?) Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To current members of the Jakarta project: Is there any current member of the Jakarta project who would be interested in sponsoring the entry of the Internationalization subproject into the incubator? The Internationalization subproject would be somewhat different than the other Jakarta projects in that there would be two types of contributors: 1. the (traditional) code contributors 2. the language translation contributors So far, the reponses I have received regarding people would would be interested in contributing have all been outside Jakarta - mostly language translators. Since the Internationalization subproject would most likely fit into the Jakarta project, it would help to have a sponsor from within Jakarta, per the Incubation Process documentation. The subproject proposal and initial code contribution can be found earlier in the Jakarta General mailing list, or here: http://www.itoolset.com/i18n/PROPOSAL.html Without a sponsor, I will probably move the code that was extracted in preparation for submission to Apache back into the iToolSet package hierarchy and let it pass as an Apache contribution until there is more interest in a common Internationalization architecture within Apache itself. Thanks in advance. Robert Simpson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc. E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.terra-intl.com/ (Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese) http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal
On 7/4/03 7:26 PM, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't forget that sundown occurs continuously in a slice of the world, and that the probability of an Apache committer seeing a sundown is high at any given moment ( http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/nightmap.html ) Regards I think that is a conversation best held at [EMAIL PROTECTED] :-p ;-) -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal
Simplistic standards like 51% of the ACTIVE committership from a different company might work for making simplistic decisions. They are not appropriate for a decision to accept a new project into Apache, which should be based on the quality of the proposed code and the proposed initial committers, not on the email addresses of the proposed initial committers. Maybe that¹s not a candidate for policy however it is required for MY vote. If your boss came and said Craig, if you don't vote X then you're fired and said this to a number of committers... While some might quit or whatever, I suspect the vote would be decided supposing they dominate the project. Furthermore, the interests of a set of employees of a company using a project for a particular purpose will tend to have homogenous interests. Thus will *tend* to vote similarly (if not the same way). It is my experience that developers who counter their employers interest do not stay employed for long. Lastly, developers who work together at work tend to communicate directly versus on community resources more frequently. In a NEW project it is my opinion that diversity should be settled up front so that no one company controls any new project. This is MY criteria for certain and required for my vote -- perhaps its not yours. -Andy Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal
On 7/3/03 2:22 PM, Cliff Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As Santiago points out, the veto rule provides some protection over pure majority, but I don't think anyone here wants to rely on that. All I can tell you is that BEA is more concerned about establishing a long term relationship with Apache and other open source communities than controlling the future development of XMLBeans. From our perspective, we have much more to gain by proving ourselves as credible and positive contributors to open source, especially since we would like XMLBeans to be the first in a series of open source contributions. If the BEA committers attempt to make decisions against the wishes of the rest of the community and are viewed negatively for doing so, we have absolutely failed in what we set out to do. That is encouraging. That would be a nice development. Of course you understand that I don't want us to totally make an exception just because of this. At the moment, on the merits, the project has some difficulty. However using this motivation that you're expressing, I think this is a bridge that can be crossed. -andy See my response to Howard's questions for more on how the project differs technically from other open source projects. Cliff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Issues with XMLBeans proposal
In summary the most serious issues to this proposal are: 1. diversity of committership. I'd personally like to see 51% of the ACTIVE committership from a different company. So long as a decision in one company can MAKE the vote, you don't have an Apache project, you have a corporate subproject at Apache. 2. Pick your project. I think it would have been a lot less confusing to mail the proposal to Jakarta or XML. Personally, if this is a Java only project, I think it should go to Jakarta. If it is a mult-platform C a/o C++ and Java, then it make sense for it to be part of XML. The proposers and sponsors should just decide and go in a single direction rather than kicking off a big debate. 3. Duplication of effort. The project encompasses schema validation which is done my XML parsers and it is Yet Another XML-Java binding API (there are some here and several elsewhere). From the standpoint of something I'd commit code to, this bores the crap out of me. From the standpoint of acceptability, its totally irrelevant. Choice is good, competition and cooperation exist not only in opensource but often in the same area of given projects. Thus if it can become an Apache community, then its irrelevant. 4. Machiavelli - I originally posted this to a private list because I didn¹t think it was good to say publicly, but rounding things out here might be good. Thus anointing BEA into the real open source and Apache world is a motivation. I don't think this project should be accepted without meeting the basic qualifications because of that, but maybe its a motivation to be a little more helpful than usual ;-). It might also round out the power structure at Apache a little if BEA began participating. Suggested courses of action: 1. Immediately begin recruiting other interested folks to round out the committership. This should not exit the incubator until 51% of regular voting committers are not from the same company. (meaning no show committers who never vote ;-) but round out the percentage) 2. Pick a project (XML or Jakarta) and say would you accept this given it is acceptable out of the incubator 3. Steven should begin suffering the incubator and moving the bureaucratic wheels. 4. set up the mail lists 5. Work on Gump integration and source structure to match other projects. 6. Project should be a subcontext of incubator for the moment. There are far more issues that must be worked out and confusion between a potential Apache project and an Apache project should be avoided. I still feel a little bit like this should start on sourceforge, round out the community issues, then move to incubator Thoughts? -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal
So what in this ensures this will be a community-developed project and not just an Apache branded extension of BEA? I really would like to see you guys involved in Apache, but not in a way the compromises Apache. There is a challenge that limits the excitement of others in that there are so many other similar projects that do exactly the same thing. Perhaps it would benefit the effort if you explained why we needed another one. That has no bearing on its suitability but it might make people more interested who wouldn't be otherwise. Note that I didn't come up with the shouldn't be all from the same company requirement...that was noted long before my time.. -Andy On 7/3/03 1:27 PM, Cliff Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand Andy's concern here, but I think Craig does a good job of pointing out the consequences of less participation by the core developers of a project, and the possibly invalid assumptions around that. As any of the committers can tell you, I wrestled with the list and really tried to limit the BEA involvement to a functional minimum. There are a few reasons why I ended up with 6 out of 9 being BEA folks: 1) I'm really hoping that other members of the Apache community will find this project interesting enough that we will end up with a couple experienced Apache people on our committer list, thereby reducing the BEA percentage. 2) The core XMLBeans developers (all BEA employees) are really excited about this stuff and want to do what ever they can to keep improving it. They are open to all kind of possibilities for refactoring, integration with other projects, and especially working with others on it...but they really all wanted to stay involved. It would probably be more efficient for BEA to have only a couple developers on the project, but the individuals wanted to be as involved as possible. 3) In the end, I had to go with the people I thought would have the most knowledge and experience with the code to lead by example. I am hoping that an active committer list will inspire community participation. I found three non-BEA people who I know will fill this role, plus the six BEA people. (I'll be responding to Andy's other points and Howard's email shortly.) Cliff On Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:01 AM, Craig R. McClanahan wrote: Snipping to an issue I have with one particular comment. On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: In summary the most serious issues to this proposal are: 1. diversity of committership. I'd personally like to see 51% of the ACTIVE committership from a different company. So long as a decision in one company can MAKE the vote, you don't have an Apache project, you have a corporate subproject at Apache. Andy, I agree with you that diversity is important, but your proposed standard (more than half the committers from elsewhere) has some distrubing implications that are worth exploring. * There is an implied assumption that the proposed committers will behave the way that their employer wants, not the way that they want. Although it is too simplistic to say that this never happens (our individual actions are public record, so of course you take into consideration what your employer might think), developers that are solely corporate mouthpiece players should never have been elected as committers in the first place. * There is an implied assumption that all the committers from the same company will vote the same way. I can tell you from lots of experience over the last few years (some of it pretty painful and personal) that this is not likely to be a problem. If it is, then we screwed up on accepting the original committers in the first place. * There is an implied assumption that a person's employer (and therefore their corporate email address) should have anything to do with whether or not that person is individually a good choice for being an Apache committer. THAT should be the overriding concern -- after all, they will be able to stay a committer even if they move to a different job (within the same company or elsewhere). * What happens to your diversity statistics if a committer that was originally outside the originating company is then hired by that company to continue working on the project? One of the company's goals might well be to support open source by allowing that person to work on the project on company time; yet your proposed standard would view the change of employment as a negative and not a positive. Apache is about individuals, not about companies. Apache is about attracting high quality software projects, not about conspiracy theories (go back in the archives a couple years before you joined, and you'll see LOTS of discussion along these lines :-). Diversity is important -- a proposal that ONLY has committers from one company needs to be analyzied. But a proposal
Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal
+1 On 7/3/03 2:26 PM, Neil Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Cliff, I think the copy list of your note to Howard must have been a good bit narrower than the copy list of this response to Andy. :) Any chance you could enlighten those of us in this broader group who are interested as to the technical points on which XMLBeans differs from other technologies? Cheers! Neil Neil Graham XML Parser Development IBM Toronto Lab Phone: 905-413-3519, T/L 969-3519 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |-+ | | Cliff Schmidt | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | || | | 07/03/2003 02:22 | | | PM | | | Please respond to| | | general | | || |-+ - | | | | To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | cc: | | Subject: RE: Issues with XMLBeans proposal | | | | | - | On Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:01 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: So what in this ensures this will be a community-developed project and not just an Apache branded extension of BEA? I really would like to see you guys involved in Apache, but not in a way the compromises Apache. There is a challenge that limits the excitement of others in that there are so many other similar projects that do exactly the same thing. Perhaps it would benefit the effort if you explained why we needed another one. That has no bearing on its suitability but it might make people more interested who wouldn't be otherwise. As Santiago points out, the veto rule provides some protection over pure majority, but I don't think anyone here wants to rely on that. All I can tell you is that BEA is more concerned about establishing a long term relationship with Apache and other open source communities than controlling the future development of XMLBeans. From our perspective, we have much more to gain by proving ourselves as credible and positive contributors to open source, especially since we would like XMLBeans to be the first in a series of open source contributions. If the BEA committers attempt to make decisions against the wishes of the rest of the community and are viewed negatively for doing so, we have absolutely failed in what we set out to do. See my response to Howard's questions for more on how the project differs technically from other open source projects. Cliff - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal
On 7/3/03 3:50 PM, Cliff Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:57 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: 2. Pick your project. I think it would have been a lot less confusing to mail the proposal to Jakarta or XML. Personally, if this is a Java only project, I think it should go to Jakarta. If it is a mult-platform C a/o C++ and Java, then it make sense for it to be part of XML. The proposers and sponsors should just decide and go in a single direction rather than kicking off a big debate. This is definitely a Java-only project right now. If that is a clear line of separation, I will stop posting to the XML list. The reason I posted to both lists was partly due to the fact that XMLBeans is much more XML-centric than Java centric (in terms of data modeling and the full fidelity availability of the XML Infoset); I really feel like this is one of those projects that could go either way. The other reason for posting to both lists is that three different Apache people (two of them ASF members) advised me to do so. I'm definitely interested in feedback as to whether to just limit the discussion to Jakarta right now. options: 1. Top level project - IMHO this isn't big enough and you don't have the open source experience or robust community to pull that off (not intended to be a criticism) 2. XML - I'm sure it would be fine. 3. Jakarta - IMHO this the best place for it. The division of XML vs Jakarta predates me for certain, but I think the main issues surrounding that are rusty. I've tried to address some of the differences with XMLBeans and why I think it adds a lot more than currently existing projects (see my response to Howard -- http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg? [EMAIL PROTECTED]msgNo=15061). However, this might be a good time for David Bau, the architect behind XMLBeans, to jump in with his views. Okay. It sounds like there are some issues which warrant this over others. I could see this being useful in things like web services as well... Limit object creation/serialization and yada yada yada... Though from reading the 10k foot view you could support JAXB if you wanted to. Just an element of curio for me...Offtopic...nevermind ;-) We would appreciate any help anyone has to offer, but I'm hoping we don't appear to need any special treatment. I've spent the last few months talking to everyone I can and reading everything I can about how to do this right. You and Howard have brought up some very reasonable points and I want to make sure I address them (either with further explanation or by making whatever changes to this proposal are necessary). Well the homogony is a big issue. Apache isn't a panacea, you'll have to work at it but I think you're sincere and motivated. Steven can help you through the gauntlet^M^M^M^M^M^M^Mincubator process and provided the committership had rounded out, and you integrated with Gump I'd vote in favor of Jakarta acceptance. (BTW acceptance to Jakarta is a majority of the Jakarta PMC vote)... It would be nice if other Jakarta PMC members sounded off a little so the incubator can hear. -Andy Thanks, Cliff - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[VOTE] Howard Lewis Ship PMC Nomination
+1 On 7/3/03 4:59 PM, Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did anything every happen on this? I remember ACO sending out a message, but I don't know if it every made it to a vote. I'd really like to pursue this, because of my instatiable craving for power. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Howard Lewis Ship PMC Nomination
Oooh ooh does that mean we all get to stab him? Sorry I'm from a violent culture...its our way... GET USED TO IT! ;-) http://linuxintegrators.com/hl30/blog/general/?permalink=And+that%27s+a+404+ on+the+Weapons+of+Mass+Destruction.html ;-) -andy On 7/3/03 6:03 PM, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 Howard for King On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: +1 On 7/3/03 4:59 PM, Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Did anything every happen on this? I remember ACO sending out a message, but I don't know if it every made it to a vote. I'd really like to pursue this, because of my instatiable craving for power. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [VOTE] Howard Lewis Ship PMC Nomination
On 7/3/03 6:23 PM, Jim Jagielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does it make sense that someone is nominating himself (or re-nominating himself) for membership? :-p We already voted him in...I nominated him a long while back...Just no one like...bothered to count the votes and do whatever was needed to instate him (like tell him how to subscribe) Now if he crowns himselfwe'll have to send troops and banish him to a small islandor come at him with knifes...depends on what kind of emperor he is -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The vendors page
Okay, then I shall for now on dutifully ignore patches to the page from names I do not recognize. I, personally, am unlikely to commit patches at all (figuring most should be able to commit them themselves with the rare exceptions mentioned) from this point on. -Andy On 7/2/03 9:51 AM, Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm tending towards the argument that if you can convince someone who has the right access to update the vendors.xml page, then you deserve to be on the list. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry -Original Message- From: Steven Noels [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 8:37 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: The vendors page On 2/07/2003 11:13 Santiago Gala wrote: I would not say you employ, but just convince one jakarta commiter to make the change. This would ensure at least some level of communication (like sending it to the project -dev list and discussing it there, etc.) +1 on being present on the list and discussing things snip/ the project committers should be aware of them existing and supporting the project. Yep - so basically this should be decided on a subproject-level in Jakarta's case. I doubt *anyone* is able to support *all* Jakarta subprojects on a level that he/she serves his customers well. Suggestion: move this page away from the Jakarta main site, and stimulate subprojects to host their own vendor pages. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses
Stop using Windows and such fears generally subside. On 7/1/03 8:11 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Same here. (although I am glad I am not as popular as you! 300???!!!) I was getting afraid that some servers would just start blocking my email from this address... but this got to such a dimension that I am sure all sysadmins must know how it works by now. There was a time I thought I was really somehow infected, but I am offline during weekends and I just get too much warnings from antivirus email filters on Monday. So, people: just get your machine offline for a while if you use Outlook and have this kind of doubt. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: sexta-feira, 27 de Junho de 2003 17:48 To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses That is exactly what happens with this particular worm. If your address is in the address book of someone who gets infected, not only do *you* start to receive the messages, messages with forged from headers with your name on them also go out. Then, the volume of messages is made worse by all of those helpful spam filters that catch the fact that the virus is included, and return a notification to the (forged) sender. Obscuring email addresses in the archives would have zero impact on this particular problem. Craig (just cleaned out about 300 of these from this morning's mail) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses
On 7/1/03 8:20 AM, Stefan Bodewig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but this got to such a dimension that I am sure all sysadmins must know how it works by now. Unlikely, this is by for not the first virus/worm working that way - during the last round I got informed that I was banned from the netbeans-dev list (that I had never subscribed to). I think those antivirus-software should get smarter. The scanners know which virus they've found as they name it in the bounce mails (a couple of hundreds here as well by now) - so one should think they'd also know that the From header is forged and any bounce is useless. Exactly!!! Idiots!! The Virus uses the anti-virus to do most of its dirty work. Stefan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The vendors page
The original intent of the vendors.xml page was: 1. Because I got sick of hearing people say Jakarta projects are not supported and wanted a page to send people to during presentations. 2. So a certain unnamed committer would not feel the need to spam the lists (because I though if he got away with it, others would start doing it and then I'd get lists full of consultancy spam). Now that Open Source is no longer a commercial cussword and I doubt even an economic turnaround will kill the momentum, I think that the policy for that page ought to be just have one of the committers you employ on the Jakarta projects you support make the change. Thus tightening it from people who support Jakarta projects to people who support Jakarta projects. Thoughts/Objections? -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Semi-OT FSF on Linux
http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/sco-statement.html I have to say, that¹s the best rationalization for viral clauses in licenses that I've seen to date. -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses
I'd be all of this if it would make a difference, unfortunately you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm getting that virus/attachment to every email address I have just about. I think it looks locally (user address book, etc). Thus I'm against this on the principal that its a big waste of time. Spammers will get publicly posted email addresses elsewhere and viruses get them from outlook. (and I mean OUTLOOK. You want to stop mail viruses??? STOP USING M$ OUTLOOK AND EXCHANGE. Write your sysadmin, explain to him that he's an idiot for installing that security hole with email features). -Andy On 6/27/03 10:32 AM, Andrus Adamchik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses
Craig (just cleaned out about 300 of these from this morning's mail) I feel your pain brother McClanahan, I feel your pain. I wish all of the dimwits who write the virus scanners would make it smart enough not to reply to the reply-to in the event of viruses which forge the reply-to...Duh. -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses
Unfortunately only someone who doesn't use Outlook can really sue M$. You see the license agreement says you hold them harmless. Now a non-party to the license agreement can obviously sue them (I think). -Andy On 6/27/03 1:58 PM, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew C. Oliver escribió: I'd be all of this if it would make a difference, unfortunately you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm getting that virus/attachment to every email address I have just about. I think it looks locally (user address book, etc). Thus I'm against this on the principal that its a big waste of time. Spammers will get publicly posted email addresses elsewhere and viruses get them from outlook. (and I mean OUTLOOK. You want to stop mail viruses??? STOP USING M$ OUTLOOK AND EXCHANGE. Write your sysadmin, explain to him that he's an idiot for installing that security hole with email features). +1 I blogged that governments and corporations should sue Microsoft about Outlook security flaws. (Spanish: http://memojo.com/memojowiki/Wiki.jsp?page=SantiagoGalaBlog_blogentry_110603_2 ) Governments and Corporations are loosing tons of money because of this. Today I received 5 viruses this way. A short questin: what would happen if your brand new Ford or Toyota would unlock the doors automatically every time a person passing by clapped hands? Microsoft has been selling a product with this feature for years. I don't get it. Except Microsoft has too much power for a government or a company suing on this. -Andy On 6/27/03 10:32 AM, Andrus Adamchik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache vote on TCK re Sun
I'd hope the ASF would vote against it in the final vote if it doesn't support open implementations with reasonable licenses. On 6/25/03 9:11 AM, Vic Cekvenich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=20005 http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19942 As per above I Quote: though IBM and Motorola still voted no. There also appear to be some disagreements within the JCP board about the licensing of these specs. Sun apparently plans to charge a Per unit royalty fee which will be dependent on volume. Doug Lea voted with comment. Apache vote with Sun with YES, without comment this says. I am wondering why? Other voted YES with comment. I personally wish they voted NO as they did in past on similar topic. I mean look at the implications, such as JBOSS is not J2EE (no big fan of EJB here), this makes it harder to have a Jakarta project that is JCP. Is anyone privy to ASF feeling on this topic related to open source in general and Java? I know there was some agreement btwn Sun and ASF. JCP *is* Sun domintated, but not ASF, AFAIK IBM seems more friendly to O.S, they said OK, but had a comment. .V ps: This is a possibility as well down the road: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030213.html That is why my clients don't use Sun VM in favor of BEA J:Rockit, and IBM VM. Java would live past Sun, should the worst happen. http://www.penguincomputing.com/graphics/desktops/eclipse1280x1024.jpg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Request to grant karma for jakarta-site2/xdocs/sitetoluehe
On 6/18/03 11:40 PM, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No reason to keep this thread a secret, moving to general. Never was. I'd moved it to Community@, instead. :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ahh, so that a portion of the community is excluded from participating in the conversation... Good move ;-) Mr. Ed is deadtake that Ed, take that! -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Request to grant karma for jakarta-site2/xdocs/sitetoluehe
Setting a valve on participation is not conducive to the name. -Andy On 6/19/03 10:16 AM, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No reason to keep this thread a secret, moving to general. Never was. I'd moved it to Community@, instead. :-) Ahh, so that a portion of the community is excluded from participating in the conversation... Good move ;-) Would you have preferred [EMAIL PROTECTED] Community@ spans all ASF projects, not just Jakarta. As you are well aware, anyone can be invited into Community@, and the archives are public. archives: http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=135 If you want to CC it to Jakarta-General, do so. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Request to grant karma for jakarta-site2/xdocs/sitetoluehe
No reason to keep this thread a secret, moving to general. On 6/18/03 2:24 AM, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Want to know a dirty little secret? 1. Java developers think Jakarta.apache.org is Apache Funny, but I was just commenting to our PMC chair that it would be nice if the content from http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html was integrated with http://www.apache.org/dev, and the former changed to reference it. There should be just one, wherever the prose comes from (and resides). Avalon has been referring to http://james.apache.org/contribute.html because of some content we had, and are now switching to http://www.apache.org/dev/. Good for you, most java developers that I know have 1-3 java projects bookmarked. Its likely tomcat and struts are two of them and then one other that they use frequently. Additionally they likely have ant. Based on this they navigate up the site and go to other information as they are prompted. I've deliberately watched this behavior on several occasions by prompting developers to go to various pages at Apache while not specifying I meant Jakarta. Only a few went to the main site and all of them had installed HTTPD recently ;-) 2. Java developers never read anything off of www.apache.org and especially not www.apache.org/dev I'll have to send my Java Ring back to Sun, and resign from the Servlet Of the Month club. Perhaps you should. ;-) --- Noel -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Conclusion] Tetsuya committer at large: Jakarta
So lots of +1's and no -1s... If I don't hear any nays by tomorrow I'll send the request... Congrats Tetsuya. -Andy On 6/3/03 5:34 PM, robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 10:14 AM, Danny Angus wrote: Andy proposed: I would like to nominate Tetsuya Kitahata to be a Jakarta committer with rights to jakarta-general. Given that Tetsuya is doing so much to publicise Jakarta in the Far East and has been maintaining Japanese translations of many jakarta ( former jakarta) sub-project sites for a while now, and considering the precedent that Rob Oxspring is a documentation only contributor I heartily agree with this nomination. +1 +1 - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
