Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-30 Thread Martin van den Bemt


On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 01:49, Ted Husted wrote:
 
 If you accept a nomination to be a committer, and gain CVS access, then
 you can apply your own patches. Since most of use the products we patch,
 this is an important benefit to most contributors. If you happen to see
 a patch from another contributor that you think is useful, you can apply
 that too. But none of us are obligated to do anything we don't want to
 do.

That will attract volunteers a great deal ;((.
The least the project (and therefor also you as a committer), has an
obligation to give a reasonable response to the effort taken. Clouding
the mailinglist with reminders (what some projects actually specifically
ask for), is actually not something I should invest my time in. 
Just a simple we don't have time for it now, it is on the todo list..
, would do in many cases. 

So if you don't want to take that effort  : don't take up the
responsibility of being a committer. 

So the obligation to do something with it, is of the project and if you
are part of that you have an obligation. 

Mvgr,
Martin




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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Leo Simons

  Case can be made that since putting something in CVS is putting
  something up for lazy majority vote (and I subscribe to that), this is
  not a good 'use case'. But what is wrong with a role for people that
  have the option to propose something for a lazy majority vote, and then
  no right/obligation to actually vote on that 'something' or anything
  else?
  
 
 I think with rights comes responsibility.

Yeah, exactly. And what if there is someone who actually wants less
responsibility and less rights than a committer, but still more than a
contributor?

It is all about granularity: less rights, less responsibility.

 Gee I'd like to dump my code
 here and not bother with the community

Gee I've created this amazing forked version of your codebase (this
amazing book about your project, ..., ...) and now got permission from
my employer to contribute it back. This is quite a lot of stuff, you can
find it at http://somewhere/ to look at. If you accept, do you want 20MB
worth of patches or can you give me CVS access?

What if the community would very much like you to provide that stuff,
you're already committer in other apache projects, but have no time to
support your submission for longer than, say, a month? Should you be
committer for a month?

etc etc etc.

cheers,

- Leo



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


 Yeah, exactly. And what if there is someone who actually wants less
 responsibility and less rights than a committer, but still more than a
 contributor?
 

-1

 It is all about granularity: less rights, less responsibility.
 
  Gee I'd like to dump my code
  here and not bother with the community
 
 Gee I've created this amazing forked version of your codebase (this
 amazing book about your project, ..., ...) and now got permission from
 my employer to contribute it back. This is quite a lot of stuff, you can
 find it at http://somewhere/ to look at. If you accept, do you want 20MB
 worth of patches or can you give me CVS access?
 
 What if the community would very much like you to provide that stuff,
 you're already committer in other apache projects, but have no time to
 support your submission for longer than, say, a month? Should you be
 committer for a month?
 

Does the term white elephant mean anything to you?  I don't think
there is anything to forbid a community from temporarily granting CVS
access.

I would say such a gift should not be interpreted with the direct
meaning of the word in German.  Such things usually are wrought with
problems and with this person who dumps a bunch of code into your
repository and leaves, well generally it reduces the quality of your
codebase and no one who IS part of the community knows the code.


-Andy

 etc etc etc.
 
 cheers,
 
 - Leo
 
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Leo Simons

On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 14:04, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
  Yeah, exactly. And what if there is someone who actually wants less
  responsibility and less rights than a committer, but still more than a
  contributor?
  
 
 -1

why?

 Does the term white elephant mean anything to you?

thought that was a special kind of elephant...

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=white%20elephant

...does now.

  I don't think
 there is anything to forbid a community from temporarily granting CVS
 access.

;)

Well, I think our guidelines forbid us. You cannot give someone CVS
access without giving them all the committer rights and responsibilities
as well. That's the point of the discussion, innit?

 I would say such a gift should not be interpreted with the direct
 meaning of the word in German.  Such things usually are wrought with
 problems and with this person who dumps a bunch of code into your
 repository and leaves, well generally it reduces the quality of your
 codebase and no one who IS part of the community knows the code.

This is of course, generalising, and we're leading away from the
discussion here. I say we should evaluate role/right/responsibility
granularity, you write an example line of thought of a potential
candidate for a new role to illustrate you disagree, so I provide a
counterexample.

Not going anywhere; I'd rather see an answer to:

Why is increased granularity in role/right/responsibility bad in
general?

and

Why is defining a new role that is in between the currently defined
roles of contributor and committer in terms of rights and
responsibilities a bad thing?

cheers,

- Leo



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi

From: Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 14:04, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
   I don't think
  there is anything to forbid a community from temporarily granting CVS
  access.

 ;)

 Well, I think our guidelines forbid us. You cannot give someone CVS
 access without giving them all the committer rights and responsibilities
 as well. That's the point of the discussion, innit?

Yes, it is.

I regard CVS as the heart of our system.
Would you make a well known surgeon operate your heart without knowing him
first, and being sure he can assist you afterwards?
If you do, usually it's for emergencies... like wanting some 20MB patch to
be in CVS and not having time to do it.

Personally, I would prefer not have the patch at all, if it means giving
access to the CVS to someone you don't trust.
And if you trust him, there is no time limit.
Nothing prevents him from asking his account to be deleted anyway.

If you invite someone in the boat with you, it's because you think that
he'll be part of the group, and share roles and responsibilities; I don't
think we need technical repairmen here.
I may be wrong, but for me it's a matter of trust, personal trust.

I have been contributing stuff to Cocoon since version 1.7, but never
proposed as a comitter.
Why?
Because I wasn't ready for OS collaboration, and they didn't trust me.

This made me stronger, and I learned a lot.
Now you made me come in Avalon just on my word and good proposition, and
this is something I will never forget. It has a very strong meaning for me.

I would like that others have these possibilities, that have made me learn a
lot.
I'm afraid that having technitians would break up this system.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Paulo Gaspar

Despite all the arguments I still can NOT see why it should be 
more complicated than this (Sam + Jon definitions).


Probably the system is already as good as it can get.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

 -Original Message-
 From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:59 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

...

  
  A developer can suggest a change.
  
  A committer can make it happen.
  
  - Sam Ruby
 
 Anyone can suggest a change.
 
 A developer can submit a patch.
 
 A committer can make it happen.
 
 ;-)
 
 -jon


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver



thought that was a special kind of elephant...

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=white%20elephant

...does now.
  

In some Asian cultures, a particularaly cruel way to blight someone you 
didn't like was to gift them a
white elephant.  They'd need to feed and take care of it because they 
were considered something sacred
and rare -- but an elephant eats a lotand well outputs a lot as well.

  

 I don't think
there is anything to forbid a community from temporarily granting CVS
access.



;)

Well, I think our guidelines forbid us. You cannot give someone CVS
access without giving them all the committer rights and responsibilities
as well. That's the point of the discussion, innit?
  

Pragmatically I think if a community voted to temporarily grant access 
to its CVS repository, I'll bet it
could be done.

Not going anywhere; I'd rather see an answer to:

Why is increased granularity in role/right/responsibility bad in
general?

1. Because it is a cop out.  
2. If this is about community and not code then we want participating 
members in the community
3. granularity is a clever way of putting it, but thats not what this 
is about
4. Code dumps are white elephants
5. Opening the floodgates to CVS is bad (for so many reasons),
6. If you trust them in the repository, you accept their code, then they 
should be part of the community, otherwise, you shouldn't accept either.


and

Why is defining a new role that is in between the currently defined
roles of contributor and committer in terms of rights and
responsibilities a bad thing?
  

I've explained this sufficiently in this and other emails.  I do not 
think defining a role for folks whose work is not CVS-based but just as 
relevant if its clearly defined.  Overall I'm happy with the 
organization as it is and do not think it needs radical social engineering.

-Andy


cheers,

- Leo



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

From: Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  

On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 14:04, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:


 I don't think
there is anything to forbid a community from temporarily granting CVS
access.
  

;)

Well, I think our guidelines forbid us. You cannot give someone CVS
access without giving them all the committer rights and responsibilities
as well. That's the point of the discussion, innit?



Yes, it is.

I regard CVS as the heart of our system.

to me the point that Pier was trying to get accross that I agreed with 
is that there is sometimes work that happens
outside of CVS worthy of committership (and/or that should require 
committership) irrelevant of CVS access.

Would you make a well known surgeon operate your heart without knowing him
first, and being sure he can assist you afterwards?
If you do, usually it's for emergencies... like wanting some 20MB patch to
be in CVS and not having time to do it.
  

Personally, I would prefer not have the patch at all, if it means giving
access to the CVS to someone you don't trust.
And if you trust him, there is no time limit.
Nothing prevents him from asking his account to be deleted anyway.
  

Agreed.

If you invite someone in the boat with you, it's because you think that
he'll be part of the group, and share roles and responsibilities; I don't
think we need technical repairmen here.
I may be wrong, but for me it's a matter of trust, personal trust.
  

Agreed.

I have been contributing stuff to Cocoon since version 1.7, but never
proposed as a comitter.
Why?
Because I wasn't ready for OS collaboration, and they didn't trust me.

This made me stronger, and I learned a lot.
Now you made me come in Avalon just on my word and good proposition, and
this is something I will never forget. It has a very strong meaning for me.

I would like that others have these possibilities, that have made me learn a
lot.
I'm afraid that having technitians would break up this system.
  

Well spoken!

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Leo Simons wrote:

On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 15:50, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
  

Despite all the arguments I still can NOT see why it should be 
more complicated than this (Sam + Jon definitions).



there's been numerous examples mentioned in this thread.

Also, the system already _is_ more complicated than the definitions
below. A committer can also vote for the PMC. Someone who wants to do
administration/documentation but should not be trusted with CVS should
not be made a committer, etc etc etc.
\

Now that I can get my fingers around.  (not documentation as that does 
go in CVS).  Someone who administrates
all of the Mail servers, Bugzilla, etc etc.  Should be a committer, but 
should not require CVS access.

I propose the following solution.  Next time that is needed propose them 
a committer, vote them in and then do not
request CVS access for them.  Root won't do it unless asked.  I'll bet 
if you say give everything but CVS access to,
root will serve the request!   (Simple, elegant, practical...it just 
won't do!)

  

Probably the system is already as good as it can get.



I think the underlying thoughts and the spirit of the system (like
what's written below, the concepts of meritocracy, do-ocracy, trust,
etc) are about as good as it gets. Implementation can always use some
work ;)

- Leo

  

Anyone can suggest a change.

A developer can submit a patch.

A committer can make it happen.

;-)

-jon
  




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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver



  

Why is increased granularity in role/right/responsibility bad in
general?

  

1. Because it is a cop out.  



http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=cop%20out (I'm learning today =)

which one do you mean?
  

/**/
To avoid fulfilling a commitment or responsibility; renege: copped out 
on my friends; copped out by ducking the issue.

  

2. If this is about community and not code then we want participating 
members in the community



don't follow...you mean limited community participating should not be an
option if you want right X?
  

Yes.

  

3. granularity is a clever way of putting it, but thats not what this 
is about



I think there's a close relationship. You could also talk about
decoupling, as Pier coined it, leading to:

Why is decoupling sets of rights/responsibilities from each other a bad
thing?

Note that doing so would lead to an increase in roles, ie a more
granular system. Just my view of the world...
  

No I think bestowing committership on people who have CVS-Like access 
(shell access is an equal amount of trust) is
different from bestowing committership without voting rights/etc.

  

4. Code dumps are white elephants



one does not automatically lead to another. Increased granularity
(right/responsibility set decoupling) doesn't mean an increase in code
dumps.
  

That was your rationale for this.  

  

5. Opening the floodgates to CVS is bad (for so many reasons),



same as for 4.
  

its still bad.

  

6. If you trust them in the repository, you accept their code, then they 
should be part of the community,



yes. But there are various ways of participating in the community. You
can accept their code and trust them in the repository, and they can be
a member of the community, and still not be a committer. Well, not now,
but the thought is to change that.
  

That is a bad idea.

This is about the specific case of creating a role that provides cvs
access and no other rights, though.
  

give me a use case other than code dumps.  I see no compelling need for 
this.

  

  

I've explained this sufficiently in this and other emails.



except I still don't get it =)
  

I don't get why you'd want to effect this change. :-)

  

 I do not 
think defining a role for folks whose work is not CVS-based but just as 
relevant if its clearly defined.



you ment to end with is stupid/bad or something, right? On that the
two of us agree, then? (now for the rest of the world...)
  

sorry I meant to say that non CVS-based committers should be 
recognized.  (shell access is just as big of
a trust thing as CVS access if not bigger)

  

 Overall I'm happy with the 
organization as it is and do not think it needs radical social engineering.



of course. But maintainance is cool.
  

only where needed.

-Andy

cheers,

- Leo



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 5/29/02 7:23 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 to me the point that Pier was trying to get accross that I agreed with
 is that there is sometimes work that happens
 outside of CVS worthy of committership (and/or that should require
 committership) irrelevant of CVS access.

Yea, like that code that will auto-format your code on checkin that you
threatened to write a month or so ago...

;-)

-jon (still waiting) stevens


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

on 5/29/02 7:23 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  

to me the point that Pier was trying to get accross that I agreed with
is that there is sometimes work that happens
outside of CVS worthy of committership (and/or that should require
committership) irrelevant of CVS access.



Yea, like that code that will auto-format your code on checkin that you
threatened to write a month or so ago...

;-)

-jon (still waiting) stevens
  

Not that it had anything to do with anything but

I got shot down by the POI community.  They don't want their code 
reformatted.Check the archives.
I began the proposal with Any discussion regarding bracket placement 
automatically kills this proposal and
it shall be hereby recended...

-Andy


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 5/29/02 1:47 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I got shot down by the POI community.

Sounds like a common thread, eh?

;-)

-jon 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Sam Ruby

Ted Husted wrote:

 I believe the fundamental principal behind our system is

Them that does the work makes the decisions.

+1

 I believe a secondary principal behind our system is

Thanks for volunteering.

+1

 - Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 5/29/02 4:53 PM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Ted Husted wrote:
 
 I believe the fundamental principal behind our system is
 
Them that does the work makes the decisions.
 
 +1
 
 I believe a secondary principal behind our system is
 
Thanks for volunteering.
 
 +1
 
 - Sam Ruby

I can't agree more. Babble all day long about random crap, but when it comes
down to it, it is the people who actually do the work that make the
decisions.

I have proven this time and time again.

Strong case in pointthe jakarta.apache.org and www.apache.org websites
are built with Anakianot that XSLT crap.

;-)

-jon


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

on 5/29/02 1:47 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  

I got shot down by the POI community.



Sounds like a common thread, eh?
  

Not sure what you mean.  How's the bar doing?

-Andy

;-)

-jon 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-28 Thread Leo Simons

 Since this is a volunteer organization, and we all have other pressing
 responsibilities, it is important that we do not encourage any systemic
 bottlenecks.

I wrote:
  user: no rights, no responsibilities
  developer: right to get quoted as author for authored pieces, no
  responsibility
  committer: right to vote as per voting guidelines, responsibility to
  sign and submit Contributor License Agreement
  pmc member: right and obligation to set overall project direction

this is not quite reflective of our current situation. The term
developer can sometimes be misleading (contributor would be better,
perhaps), while committer perhaps should include some added guidelines
wrt responsibilities.

You might call the fact that these definitions are somewhat out of whack
a systemic bottleneck.

 Since committing is voting, what I think what some people want is a
 non-vetoing Committer.

I think 'some people' don't see/don't agree to the committing is
voting, and then what they want is a Developer-with-CVS-access, which
is more or less what they said.

Committing is voting is not reflected in our guidelines (at least I
couldn't find such a notion).

 Someone to do the work without sharing in the
 responsibility.

sounds like what we call developer in our guidelines ;)

 Which is to say, we can reject what they do, but they
 can't reject what we do. Personally, I would find that type of
 master/slave relationship difficult to maintain in a volunteer 
 organization like this. If you are working hard enough to need commit 
 rights, you are working hard enough to have veto rights. 

What if someone wants/needs commit rights but doesn't want the veto
rights (and responsibilities)? The right to vote also means an
obligation to vote/abstain. The implication of your statement is if you
are given cvs access, you should also take on the responsibility of
voting.

cheers,

- Leo



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-28 Thread Sam Ruby

Leo Simons wrote:

 Since committing is voting, what I think what some people want is a
 non-vetoing Committer.

 I think 'some people' don't see/don't agree to the committing is
 voting, and then what they want is a Developer-with-CVS-access, which
 is more or less what they said.

 Committing is voting is not reflected in our guidelines (at least I
 couldn't find such a notion).

In projects like http://httpd.apache.org/dev/guidelines.html, any
impleementation of an idea (as opposed to a simple patch) must be
review-then-comment.  In most Jakarta subprojects, the norm is lazy
consensus as defined in http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html.

So, think of a commit as the first (any typically only) +1 most changes get.

 Someone to do the work without sharing in the
 responsibility.

 sounds like what we call developer in our guidelines ;)

A developer can suggest a change.

A committer can make it happen.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-28 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 5/28/02 12:12 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Leo Simons wrote:
 
 Since committing is voting, what I think what some people want is a
 non-vetoing Committer.
 
 I think 'some people' don't see/don't agree to the committing is
 voting, and then what they want is a Developer-with-CVS-access, which
 is more or less what they said.
 
 Committing is voting is not reflected in our guidelines (at least I
 couldn't find such a notion).
 
 In projects like http://httpd.apache.org/dev/guidelines.html, any
 impleementation of an idea (as opposed to a simple patch) must be
 review-then-comment.  In most Jakarta subprojects, the norm is lazy
 consensus as defined in http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html.
 
 So, think of a commit as the first (any typically only) +1 most changes get.
 
 Someone to do the work without sharing in the
 responsibility.
 
 sounds like what we call developer in our guidelines ;)
 
 A developer can suggest a change.
 
 A committer can make it happen.
 
 - Sam Ruby

Anyone can suggest a change.

A developer can submit a patch.

A committer can make it happen.

;-)

-jon


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-28 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Tue, 2002-05-28 at 17:36, Leo Simons wrote:
 On Tue, 2002-05-28 at 14:20, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
  I totally disagree with everything you just said.
 
 Uhm, I think you disagree with the idea we should have
 'developers/contributors' with CVS access who are not committers. I'm
 not sure whether I support that idea yet.
 
 You also disagree with the other stuff I said?
 
  I do NOT think developers should be granted CVS access without voting 
  rights.  Thats a cop out.  That says Gee we trust you in CVS but don't 
  want to give you the rights to control your work or give you any 
  ownership in what you do.  If they are frequent enough committers to 
  require CVS access...then they deserve the rights there under.
 
 Missing the point I made that there might be people out there that want
 some of the rights that come with committer status, not caring about
 having all of them, while not wanting all of the duties that come with
 committer status.
 

I want a million dollars with no responsibilities such as paying taxes
or any of that stuff.  With rights come responsibilities, such is life.

 Heck, I'll probably submit more than a few patches to centipede in the
 future; people will probably get tired of applying them and they might
 ask me to become a committer, to which I will say no thanks as I feel
 I have have no time to make that commitment. It'll still be easier for
 both the committers and me if I still get CVS access.
 

Centipede is not a Jakarta project, and if the voting rules for
centipede are documented, I missed the link.  I think for the moment its
either common law or understood because nearly everyone there is a
committer on some Apache project somewhere.  

 I'm not saying we should allow it, just that there's two sides to the
 story.
 

I'd in fact -1 the idea of giving you CVS access without agreeing to be
a committer.

Krysalis (from what I can tell) actually has a slightly different type
of committership.  One is a committer to all projects (meaning I get to
vote on Wings and Centipede both).

I think I may be (there) an excellent example of the type of committer
that Pier talks about.  I've actually committed 0 code to Wings or
Centipede.  All of my work has been in setup, publicising, cross
OS-testing, and well lots of little things that aren't code but that
well the project might not be where it is today had I not done them.  

 Case can be made that since putting something in CVS is putting
 something up for lazy majority vote (and I subscribe to that), this is
 not a good 'use case'. But what is wrong with a role for people that
 have the option to propose something for a lazy majority vote, and then
 no right/obligation to actually vote on that 'something' or anything
 else?
 

I think with rights comes responsibility.  Gee I'd like to dump my code
here and not bother with the community I want a million dollars
without bothering with earning it or the taxes or jailtime or
whatever...

-Andy

 g'night,
 
 - Leo
 
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Peter Donald

Hi,

I would love to be able to give people partiial access to projects and I would 
also love to expire accounts if they are dormant or the person goes MIA.

For instance the first one would be especially useful in projects like ant, 
excalibur and commons. Many times in ant the committers have wanted to give a 
person access to a certain subtree in CVS because they contributed it and 
would be able to maintain it. ie Originally the Perforce tasks in Ant were 
largely contributed by a single individual and it would have been great if 
that person coul ddirectly maintain them.

However given that every new committer needs a new account on the boxen we 
never moved forward on it. When more appropriate infrastructure is put in 
place (Subversion - rah rah rah! Subversion - rah rah rah!) I think it would 
definetly be a good idea to do that. However that may put too big a burden on 
the system admins. 

When the new infrastructure is in place (think subversion, eyebrowse, scarab, 
+ some mailing list management software + some product release software) it 
would be very beneficial to push the administration down onto project leads 
and away from sys admins (who are prolly overloaded anyways). No one besides 
a select few would even need accounts.

Of course this needs a lot of volunteers to get started but until then I am 
not sure it would be possible to please everyone. However when thats in place 
all projects effectively manage themselves as they see fit.

On Sat, 25 May 2002 09:06, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 Chatted with a lot of people, seen many, different development models, went
 around, asked, talked, and I believe I have a pretty decent picture, and
 maybe even a solution...

 So the major topic of discussion is that I perceive a substantial
 difference between being able to commit code to a CVS repository, and being
 a committer committer, with all dues and responsibilities that this role
 concerns...

 For example sometimes someone might want to have commit access just because
 he is working for a company that deals with a particular project in Apache
 (we've seen this happening several times with some projects such as Xerces
 and Tomcat), but he really doesn't care about the whole fuzz of Apache and
 stuff, and once the employment contract ends, the relationship with Apache
 terminates as well (I don't need to enumerate all those examples along
 those lines).

 One other example, if we didn't have Henri building RPMs for basically all
 Jakarta projects (and others), or if Henri wasn't a committer on Tomcat,
 don't you think that he would deserve committer status even if he's not
 tied to any particular codebase? We had this problem in the current
 election of the members, Sally Khudairi: Sally doesn't code, but she was
 involved with the ASF since before it was even created as a press
 organizer. Does she deserve to be a member of the foundation? Even if she
 doesn't code? Yes she does, IMO (and she was elected and nominated a member
 today)...

 So, IMO, there's a great difference between being a coder, and being a
 member of the Jakarta community, at least in my opinion. There might be
 coders who are not involved with the community, and there might be
 non-coders who are much involved with it, want to participate, are active
 and deserve to be committers...

 Our current structure doesn't allow that to happen, both things. If you
 need to write code in a particular source-base, and you need CVS access,
 you are automagically made a committer, even if you don't care about much
 else, and if you're very much involved with the overall project, but not
 tied to ANY whatsoever codebase, and really, don't want / can't do it.

 So, given this little background, I would like to ask to the PMC, and all
 other committers, if others agree that we should splitting the
 committer figure in two parts:

 - contributor: a contributor is someone who has access to a particular CVS
 tree, but for any reason doesn't want/need to be involved with the whole
 Jakarta community. He just wants to code his little bit and live a long
 life.

 - member: is someone who is involved with the Jakarta community, somehow,
 somewhere (might be just giving a great deal in supporting users of our
 projects, or providing extra value to projects, like guidance in respect to
 overall specifications, binary builds). He is effectively a member of the
 community and has all the rights and dues of every member, such as
 participate in the election of the PMC.

 And redefining the figure of the committer as follows:

 - committer: is a contributor, but also a member, therefore he has all the
 privileges and dues of a contributor (having CVS access, and overlooking
 the code he's contributing to) and of a member (can vote for PMCs, should
 participate and contribute to discussions on the overall structure of
 Jakarta).

 I believe this makes sense, more sense than what we have now, also because
 we've seen that happening in the ASF for the 

RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro

Hi Andrew,

 -Mensaje original-
 De: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Enviado el: sábado 25 de mayo de 2002 18:39
 Para: Jakarta General List
 Asunto: Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...
 
 From my understanding, in most European parliamentary democracies,
 generally you vote for more issue-oriented parties.  Even if 
 you loose
 you take a certain number of seats.  So it makes sense to vote
 regardless of whether its going to be a landslide.

In most European countries, voting is as irrelevant as it's in the States:
http://www.billionairesforbushorgore.com/
In Spain we've seen socialists undercutting social benefits and privatizing
public companies; and right-wing parties supporting abortion and promoting
public function. (Not a bad thing, necessarily, just a sign of the times).
I'm sure you can think of similar examples in your own countries.

The true strength of the Apache community is, IMHO, not in its democratic
values, but in the spirit of cooperation. Only when this fails, does the
result suck (Apache Axis comes to mind).

Un saludo,

Alex.



Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Leo Simons

  + some mailing list management software + some product release software) it 
  would be very beneficial to push the administration down onto project leads 
 
 So we'll also have 'project leads' ? 

 And some people who write and maintain code, but have different rights ?

we have, in practice, in quite a few of the subprojects. The in
practice part in that sentence explains the quotes around leads.

We have a nice theoretical meritocracy model defining several roles and
responsibilities. That's just fine. The current model defines user,
developer, committer and pmc member.

In real life, there's more roles, overlapping roles, more specific
roles, less specific roles.

Examples: with Avalon, Peter and Berin handle most of our releases; they
assume the role of release manager. Jeff Turner's been working on the
build process; he had the cap of build process manager, now passed
over to Nicola Ken, all informally.

Fortunately, this is all okay and no-one complains. Like Ted said, we're
pragmatic about it.

Thing is, formal roles and responsibilities currently are
(as per http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html):

user: no rights, no responsibilities
developer: right to get quoted as author for authored pieces, no
responsibility
committer: right to vote as per voting guidelines, responsibility to
sign and submit Contributor License Agreement
pmc member: right and obligation to set overall project direction

when these no longer reflect the ad hoc pragmatic roles defined within
subprojects, or when they make using these pragmatic roles difficult,
we should think about changing these definitions, roles and
responsibilities.

Fact of the matter is, the model is not perfect, and not everyone in our
community fits into these categories very well. Saying that everyone who
submits a patch is a developer is a bit of a strange definition, as you
don't really develop documentation, etc etc etc.

Pier brings this up, perhaps in a somewhat clumsy way, but with a valid
point and valid arguments: voila, heated discussion and comments on a
personal note.

if it ain't broken, don't fix it leads to things like windows. We'd
still be forced to work with AWT and JSP.

- Leo



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Ted Husted

I think the real point is that while, given the chance, some people may
prefer to do one thing or another, as Committers we all can potentially
do anything that needs to be done whenever we have time to do it. 

Since this is a volunteer organization, and we all have other pressing
responsibilities, it is important that we do not encourage any systemic
bottlenecks. If the Committer who likes to do the releases can't,
someone else can just step up to bat without any hoopla. A committer is
a committer .. from each according to their abilities, to each according
to their needs. 

Regardless of what we choose to do from time to time, the codebase is
our joint responsiblity. And when we drift away, someone else will step
into our shoes. When we are gone, another committer may elect to do what
we used to do, or a new contributor may fill the void and then be 
nominated as the product's newest Committer. 

The real problem I would have with non-voting Committers is that
comitting is an important way of how we vote. Because we are all
responsible for the entire codebase, jointly and severally, we don't 
have to vote on every little thing. We can vote through our commits -- 
unless and until another Committer points out an error in our judgment. 

Since committing is voting, what I think what some people want is a
non-vetoing Committer. Someone to do the work without sharing in the
responsibility. Which is to say, we can reject what they do, but they
can't reject what we do. Personally, I would find that type of
master/slave relationship difficult to maintain in a volunteer 
organization like this. If you are working hard enough to need commit 
rights, you are working hard enough to have veto rights. 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/about/services


Leo Simons wrote:
 we have, in practice, in quite a few of the subprojects. The in
 practice part in that sentence explains the quotes around leads.
 
 We have a nice theoretical meritocracy model defining several roles and
 responsibilities. That's just fine. The current model defines user,
 developer, committer and pmc member.
 
 In real life, there's more roles, overlapping roles, more specific
 roles, less specific roles.
 
 Examples: with Avalon, Peter and Berin handle most of our releases; they
 assume the role of release manager. Jeff Turner's been working on the
 build process; he had the cap of build process manager, now passed
 over to Nicola Ken, all informally.
 
 Fortunately, this is all okay and no-one complains. Like Ted said, we're
 pragmatic about it.
 
 Thing is, formal roles and responsibilities currently are
 (as per http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html):
 
 user: no rights, no responsibilities
 developer: right to get quoted as author for authored pieces, no
 responsibility
 committer: right to vote as per voting guidelines, responsibility to
 sign and submit Contributor License Agreement
 pmc member: right and obligation to set overall project direction
 
 when these no longer reflect the ad hoc pragmatic roles defined within
 subprojects, or when they make using these pragmatic roles difficult,
 we should think about changing these definitions, roles and
 responsibilities.
 
 Fact of the matter is, the model is not perfect, and not everyone in our
 community fits into these categories very well. Saying that everyone who
 submits a patch is a developer is a bit of a strange definition, as you
 don't really develop documentation, etc etc etc.
 
 Pier brings this up, perhaps in a somewhat clumsy way, but with a valid
 point and valid arguments: voila, heated discussion and comments on a
 personal note.
 
 if it ain't broken, don't fix it leads to things like windows. We'd
 still be forced to work with AWT and JSP.
 
 - Leo

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Sam Ruby

Ted Husted wrote:

 Since committing is voting...

+1

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 28 May 2002 03:12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sun, 26 May 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
  + some mailing list management software + some product release software)
  it would be very beneficial to push the administration down onto project
  leads

 So we'll also have 'project leads' ?

we already do in practice. Some projects more so than others. As been stated 
before - Apache is a meritocracy, the more you contribute, the more 
responsibility and power you receive.

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald



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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-26 Thread Danny Angus

+0

I like this, I think it is needed, as it should help to extend the
experience and knowledge of the community by acknowledging the services of
non-coders.

I believe, though, that as sub-projects grow we will eventually need to
address the issue of scope, but in the meantime this would be an
improvement.

But Pier, it doesn't address your original problem though, does it?
Which was about the bar height, or how to encourage contributors, and
increase the number of contributors without diluting, and clogging up, the
community and decision making processes.

d.

 - committer: is a contributor, but also a member, therefore he has all the
 privileges and dues of a contributor (having CVS access, and
 overlooking the
 code he's contributing to) and of a member (can vote for PMCs, should
 participate and contribute to discussions on the overall structure of
 Jakarta).

 I believe this makes sense, more sense than what we have now, also because
 we've seen that happening in the ASF for the very first time with a
 non-coding member. Comments please?













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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-26 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


 But Pier, it doesn't address your original problem though, does it?
 Which was about the bar height, or how to encourage contributors, and
 increase the number of contributors without diluting, and clogging up, the
 community and decision making processes.
 

Total and complete agreement.  Well said Sir.

-Andy

 d.
 
  - committer: is a contributor, but also a member, therefore he has all the
  privileges and dues of a contributor (having CVS access, and
  overlooking the
  code he's contributing to) and of a member (can vote for PMCs, should
  participate and contribute to discussions on the overall structure of
  Jakarta).
 
  I believe this makes sense, more sense than what we have now, also because
  we've seen that happening in the ASF for the very first time with a
  non-coding member. Comments please?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-26 Thread Ted Husted

Those who do the work of creating a Jakarta product are entitled to make 
the decisions regarding that product. A successful product is more than 
code, it also requires documentation and support and easy-to-use 
distributions. 

Whether a patch is to the code or the documentation isn't relevant. A 
patch is a patch, a contribution is a contribution, and anyone who 
makes sustained contributions to a product is elligible to become a 
committer. 

A change to the codebase can affect everyone, including them that don't
code but simply document. They should have as much to say about the
codebase as everyone else. 

The real point behind meritocracy, I believe, is that we are all equal
and there is no formal hierarchy. It's also a big part of what 
makes Jakarta both fun and different from our regular jobs. 

We have a simple and effective system here that's been proven to work. 
I don't believe that the formal system is broken or needs to be 
refactored.

-1 on there being shades of gray between contributors and committers. 

A contributor is anyone who has submitted code, documentation or 
any other deliverable that has been made part of the product. 
Committers do the work of creating the product by posting 
contributions to the CVS or other secure area. 

+1 on non-coders or specialists being voted as committers when 
the circumstances warrant. There is nothing to prevent this now 
nor should there ever be. If its OK with the other committers to a 
product, there's no reason for the rest of us to care. If it's not 
OK with the other committers, then it is not the system that's 
broken, but the committers -- and no amount of tinkering is going 
to fix that.

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/about/services



Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 
 Chatted with a lot of people, seen many, different development models, went
 around, asked, talked, and I believe I have a pretty decent picture, and
 maybe even a solution...
 
 So the major topic of discussion is that I perceive a substantial difference
 between being able to commit code to a CVS repository, and being a
 committer committer, with all dues and responsibilities that this role
 concerns...
 
 For example sometimes someone might want to have commit access just because
 he is working for a company that deals with a particular project in Apache
 (we've seen this happening several times with some projects such as Xerces
 and Tomcat), but he really doesn't care about the whole fuzz of Apache and
 stuff, and once the employment contract ends, the relationship with Apache
 terminates as well (I don't need to enumerate all those examples along those
 lines).
 
 One other example, if we didn't have Henri building RPMs for basically all
 Jakarta projects (and others), or if Henri wasn't a committer on Tomcat,
 don't you think that he would deserve committer status even if he's not tied
 to any particular codebase? We had this problem in the current election of
 the members, Sally Khudairi: Sally doesn't code, but she was involved with
 the ASF since before it was even created as a press organizer. Does she
 deserve to be a member of the foundation? Even if she doesn't code? Yes she
 does, IMO (and she was elected and nominated a member today)...
 
 So, IMO, there's a great difference between being a coder, and being a
 member of the Jakarta community, at least in my opinion. There might be
 coders who are not involved with the community, and there might be
 non-coders who are much involved with it, want to participate, are active
 and deserve to be committers...
 
 Our current structure doesn't allow that to happen, both things. If you
 need to write code in a particular source-base, and you need CVS access, you
 are automagically made a committer, even if you don't care about much else,
 and if you're very much involved with the overall project, but not tied to
 ANY whatsoever codebase, and really, don't want / can't do it.
 
 So, given this little background, I would like to ask to the PMC, and all
 other committers, if others agree that we should splitting the committer
 figure in two parts:
 
 - contributor: a contributor is someone who has access to a particular CVS
 tree, but for any reason doesn't want/need to be involved with the whole
 Jakarta community. He just wants to code his little bit and live a long
 life.
 
 - member: is someone who is involved with the Jakarta community, somehow,
 somewhere (might be just giving a great deal in supporting users of our
 projects, or providing extra value to projects, like guidance in respect to
 overall specifications, binary builds). He is effectively a member of the
 community and has all the rights and dues of every member, such as
 participate in the election of the PMC.
 
 And redefining the figure of the committer as follows:
 
 - committer: is a contributor, but also a member, therefore he has all the
 

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-26 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi

Well said.
I subscribe to this.

We should remember that people that contribute so much should be proposed as
committers, regardless to the code submitted, as is done AFAIK in POI,
Struts, Cocoon, Forrest, Avalon, and the Krysalis projects (that refer to
Apache guidelines).

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


- Original Message -
From: Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...


 Those who do the work of creating a Jakarta product are entitled to make
 the decisions regarding that product. A successful product is more than
 code, it also requires documentation and support and easy-to-use
 distributions.

 Whether a patch is to the code or the documentation isn't relevant. A
 patch is a patch, a contribution is a contribution, and anyone who
 makes sustained contributions to a product is elligible to become a
 committer.

 A change to the codebase can affect everyone, including them that don't
 code but simply document. They should have as much to say about the
 codebase as everyone else.

 The real point behind meritocracy, I believe, is that we are all equal
 and there is no formal hierarchy. It's also a big part of what
 makes Jakarta both fun and different from our regular jobs.

 We have a simple and effective system here that's been proven to work.
 I don't believe that the formal system is broken or needs to be
 refactored.

 -1 on there being shades of gray between contributors and committers.

 A contributor is anyone who has submitted code, documentation or
 any other deliverable that has been made part of the product.
 Committers do the work of creating the product by posting
 contributions to the CVS or other secure area.

 +1 on non-coders or specialists being voted as committers when
 the circumstances warrant. There is nothing to prevent this now
 nor should there ever be. If its OK with the other committers to a
 product, there's no reason for the rest of us to care. If it's not
 OK with the other committers, then it is not the system that's
 broken, but the committers -- and no amount of tinkering is going
 to fix that.

 -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
 -- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
 -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
 -- Web: http://husted.com/about/services



 Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 
  Chatted with a lot of people, seen many, different development models,
went
  around, asked, talked, and I believe I have a pretty decent picture, and
  maybe even a solution...
 
  So the major topic of discussion is that I perceive a substantial
difference
  between being able to commit code to a CVS repository, and being a
  committer committer, with all dues and responsibilities that this role
  concerns...
 
  For example sometimes someone might want to have commit access just
because
  he is working for a company that deals with a particular project in
Apache
  (we've seen this happening several times with some projects such as
Xerces
  and Tomcat), but he really doesn't care about the whole fuzz of Apache
and
  stuff, and once the employment contract ends, the relationship with
Apache
  terminates as well (I don't need to enumerate all those examples along
those
  lines).
 
  One other example, if we didn't have Henri building RPMs for basically
all
  Jakarta projects (and others), or if Henri wasn't a committer on Tomcat,
  don't you think that he would deserve committer status even if he's not
tied
  to any particular codebase? We had this problem in the current
election of
  the members, Sally Khudairi: Sally doesn't code, but she was involved
with
  the ASF since before it was even created as a press organizer. Does she
  deserve to be a member of the foundation? Even if she doesn't code? Yes
she
  does, IMO (and she was elected and nominated a member today)...
 
  So, IMO, there's a great difference between being a coder, and being a
  member of the Jakarta community, at least in my opinion. There might be
  coders who are not involved with the community, and there might be
  non-coders who are much involved with it, want to participate, are
active
  and deserve to be committers...
 
  Our current structure doesn't allow that to happen, both things. If
you
  need to write code in a particular source-base, and you need CVS access,
you
  are automagically made a committer, even if you don't care about much
else,
  and if you're very much involved with the overall project, but not tied
to
  ANY whatsoever codebase, and really, don't want / can't do it.
 
  So, given this little background, I would like to ask to the PMC, and
all
  other committers, if others agree that we should splitting the
committer
  figure in two parts:
 
  - contributor

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-26 Thread Bill Barker


- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...


 On Sun, 26 May 2002, Ignacio J. Ortega wrote:

  but all i can say from the history i know, that you are simply suffering
  some kind of father syndrome, like those fathers that, when his children

 Stop reading Freud :-) !

Before Nacho kicked in, I was going for Jungian myself. :)


 We need to add as commiters not only a lawyer, but also a shrink now.


+1 for the shrink.  That way I might be able to get through my inbox in
finite time. ;-)

 Costin


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 
 If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
 If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
 
 Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly... It's not
 only rights... It's also dues, right?
 
 Yes, the 'due' to spend weekends writing code or answering emails or
 reading flame wars.
 
 Give me a break with the big 'due' to vote or have a say over how the
 project you're involved with.

And in fact, Costin, the big opposition you're going to get from me, will
always be on the fact that you are totally and utterly irresponsible towards
this community and the ASF... It's years that you're been told that, not
only from me, but from an extended number of people (do we want to get back
to the Tomcat 3.x/4.x flamewar? Read those comments)...

Anyway, nice talking to you (not).

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

Tim Vernum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 
 If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all
 other commiters.
 If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
 
 But it's not just about exercising rights, it's also about
 granting rights.
 
 At the moment, you cannot grant someone one right (commit access)
 without also granting them additional rights (voting etc).
 
 Some people (myself included) would claim that the condition of
 entry for those rights, are not equal.

Thanks, it seems that few people understood what I'm trying to do: freeing
the community from being tied down to a particular CVS repository and
restructuring it, for most of the otehrs I'm just someone who wants to lock
up this community and strip it of its freedom... Bah :)

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.

It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
because he disappeared.

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Jeff Turner

On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:04:24PM +0100, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
  
  If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
  If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
  
  Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly... It's not
  only rights... It's also dues, right?
  
  Yes, the 'due' to spend weekends writing code or answering emails or
  reading flame wars.
  
  Give me a break with the big 'due' to vote or have a say over how the
  project you're involved with.
 
 And in fact, Costin, the big opposition you're going to get from me, will
 always be on the fact that you are totally and utterly irresponsible towards
 this community and the ASF... It's years that you're been told that, not
 only from me, but from an extended number of people (do we want to get back
 to the Tomcat 3.x/4.x flamewar? Read those comments)...

Aren't we all happy that 3.3.x exists, and is better than 3.2.x? Aren't
we all happy that we have a choice to 4.x?

Aren't we all happy that Jon was 'mislead' into not -1'ing Struts (one
of Jakarta's biggest successes)?

Perhaps people should be less certain they know what is best for the
community :P

 Anyway, nice talking to you (not).

.. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
vicious abuse.


--Jeff
(a happy 3.3.x and Struts user, whose sense of justice temporarily
outweighs an aversion to general@ flamewars)


 Pier
 

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt

Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).

I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 

Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
be very constructive for this community! 

Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
sys admins, people with great ideas (the thinkers)  etc,etc.. A
community is more then just programming, although it is our core
business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
myself in dutch tiep miep)

Just my 2 euro cents ;)

Mvgr,
Martin

PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
better be the wisest to ignore it.
value teacher mode on
I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
(with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
/value teacher mode off


On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
 
 It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
 community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
 employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
 without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
 because he disappeared.
 
 Pier
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
 sys admins, people with great ideas (the thinkers)  etc,etc.. A
 community is more then just programming, although it is our core
 business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
 and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
 myself in dutch tiep miep)

_THIS_ is freedom. It doesn't look like a vicious abuse... Thank you
Martin...

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
 Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
 however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
 
 I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 
 
 Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
 be very constructive for this community! 
 
 Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
 sys admins, people with great ideas (the thinkers)  etc,etc.. A
 community is more then just programming, although it is our core
 business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
 and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
 myself in dutch tiep miep)
 

I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  

-Andy

 Just my 2 euro cents ;)
 
 Mvgr,
 Martin
 
 PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
 thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
 each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
 besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
 better be the wisest to ignore it.
 value teacher mode on
 I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
 waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
 The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
 people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
 (with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
 if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
 non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
 Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
 /value teacher mode off
 
 
 On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
  Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
  
  It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
  community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
  employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
  without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
  because he disappeared.
  
  Pier
  
  
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Java
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structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 09:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
 
 It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
 community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
 employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
 without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
 because he disappeared.
 

My projects haven't come to a grinding halt.  Only on general @ jakarta
is the sky always falling and Apache coming to an end.  I prefer the
status quo.  Nothing you've said has convinced me that (it could be that
I don't know who those people are anyhow) there is a compelling reason
to change it.  There are other things I see as more pressing than the
need for more chiefs.

-Andy

 Pier
 
 
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Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt

Andy,

With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess.

In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all
of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it
still veto'd its no use investing spare time in. 
I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as a sysadmin/co-list moderator, but
to no avail, although some were complaining about lack of time. This new
proposal will leave this kind of involvement at least open.

Mvgr,
Martin

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 16:49, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
  Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
  however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
  
  I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 
  
  Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
  be very constructive for this community! 
  
  Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
  sys admins, people with great ideas (the thinkers)  etc,etc.. A
  community is more then just programming, although it is our core
  business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
  and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
  myself in dutch tiep miep)
  
 
 I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  
 
 -Andy
 
  Just my 2 euro cents ;)
  
  Mvgr,
  Martin
  
  PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
  thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
  each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
  besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
  better be the wisest to ignore it.
  value teacher mode on
  I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
  waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
  The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
  people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
  (with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
  if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
  non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
  Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
  /value teacher mode off
  
  
  On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
   Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
-1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
   
   It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
   community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
   employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
   without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
   because he disappeared.
   
   Pier
   
   
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 http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
 Java
 http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
 structure
   a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
 The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
 vote.
 -Ambassador Kosh
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.  

I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted.  I'll be
implementing that shortly.  (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:05, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
 Andy,
 
 With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess.
 
 In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all
 of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it
 still veto'd its no use investing spare time in. 
 I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as a sysadmin/co-list moderator, but
 to no avail, although some were complaining about lack of time. This new
 proposal will leave this kind of involvement at least open.
 
 Mvgr,
 Martin
 
 On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 16:49, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
  On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
   Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
   however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
   
   I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 
   
   Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
   be very constructive for this community! 
   
   Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
   sys admins, people with great ideas (the thinkers)  etc,etc.. A
   community is more then just programming, although it is our core
   business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
   and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
   myself in dutch tiep miep)
   
  
  I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  
  
  -Andy
  
   Just my 2 euro cents ;)
   
   Mvgr,
   Martin
   
   PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
   thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
   each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
   besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
   better be the wisest to ignore it.
   value teacher mode on
   I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
   waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
   The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
   people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
   (with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
   if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
   non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
   Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
   /value teacher mode off
   
   
   On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.

It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
because he disappeared.

Pier


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   --
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  http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
  http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
  Java
  http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
  structure
  a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
  The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
  vote.
  -Ambassador Kosh
  
  
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Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:16, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.  

Then I fail to see your connection with my story too.. 
I'll Give it try anyway : If no one cares or just one person cares and
needs to vote of all to get things implemented or changed and doesn't
get that vote, it will not get implemented, or even tried.
I think that is normal behaviour here, so that is why I guess a lot of
idea's never get implemented anyway, because you guys -1 it.. 

 
 I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. 

Guess you are a committer on jakarta? I am not. Is that the difference?
This is exactly the reason why I said +1.. 
If you don't mind me asking out of interest : which project ? (else I
have to dig into the avail file to see where you have commit access ;))

 I'll be
 implementing that shortly.  (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
 2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)

It's broken now indeed ;) On the turbine list they are still saying that
I have to use that to get bugs...

Mvgr,
Martin

 -Andy
 
 On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:05, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
  Andy,
  
  With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess.
  
  In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all
  of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it
  still veto'd its no use investing spare time in. 
  I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as a sysadmin/co-list moderator, but
  to no avail, although some were complaining about lack of time. This new
  proposal will leave this kind of involvement at least open.
  
  Mvgr,
  Martin
  
  On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 16:49, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
   On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).

I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 

Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
be very constructive for this community! 

Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
sys admins, people with great ideas (the thinkers)  etc,etc.. A
community is more then just programming, although it is our core
business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
myself in dutch tiep miep)

   
   I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  
   
   -Andy
   
Just my 2 euro cents ;)

Mvgr,
Martin

PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
better be the wisest to ignore it.
value teacher mode on
I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
(with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
/value teacher mode off


On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
 
 It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
 community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
 employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
 without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
 because he disappeared.
 
 Pier
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail:   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 



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   Java
   http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
   structure
 a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
   The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
   vote.
   -Ambassador Kosh
   
   
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.
 
 I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted.  I'll be
 implementing that shortly.  (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
 2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)

Good. If you weren't a committer for POI, and you did that for the past 2
years, wouldn't you like to have a some sort of recognition by this
community? Wouldn't you like to be able to elect the PMC? To decide what
projects you'll have to deal with in your installation of the bug tracking
system? I believe you would.

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread James Taylor


 My projects haven't come to a grinding halt.  Only on general @ jakarta

But this isn't about your projects, it is about the community, and the
community is more important than the code. Do you even know why you are
here?

 -Andy

-- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
realize how little value he brings to the community =)


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt

 
 The converse: You all can vote all day long on what I'm to do, but what
 are you going to do when my dissenting vote is cast by me not actually
 doing it?  Voting has NOTHING to do with what work gets done.  Thats the
 POWER of those who do.

We are talking about this proposal am I right not about a project
proposal? So if there is a veto, you can do whatever you want, but you
are doing it for nobody. Unless you want to push the proposal in, when
the opportunity is there.

 
   
   I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. 
  
  Guess you are a committer on jakarta? I am not. Is that the difference?
  This is exactly the reason why I said +1.. 
 
 If you contribute work, you'll become a committer, its as simple as
 that.  I propose people committers because I can't keep up with their
 patches and get my own work done.  (After I make sure they will fit into
 the community and they know how to use CVS).  I would like to say I
 really value the opinions of everyone, but I don't.  I value the
 opinions of those who are going to contribute something tangible to the
 project (even if its just critique of the documentation, bug reports,
 test files, etc).  

Don't think we are discussing the same thing here.. I refered to my
offer of being a sysadmin/maillist moderator. Becoming a committer of
any project isn't involved in that. Probably because you have to be
committer to do such a thing, getting involved the community is pretty
difficult. 

 
 If +1 = Andy Do then thats a big -1 from me.  If +1 = Yes and I'll do
 or help do then great!  To let non-coders be committers cheapens the
 meaning.  
Agreed ont hat, but I guess you missed to point Pier made.. Pier wasn't
suggesting that non-coders can be committers, just that they can be
members. 

 Its just a bunch of folks registering their opinion on what I
 should do.  Yeah, the difference between that and toilette paper is that
 toilette paper is useful.

You are all (seen this reference a couple of times now) thinking of
members that take up jakarta management issues and that they become
leaders.. I was just referring to people who can make life easier for
the coders. If I was jakarta's sysadmin, and someones says we want to
switch to scarab, I must be able to say -1 (when supplying good
reasons..). If you have a vote on POI, as a sysmanager I don't vote on
that. The only members that can intervene in your project (if that
member role was there that is), could be the lawyers ;) En (or
de)-cryption support in POI is something that could be appropiate on
that ;)). Hope you get the overall picture of what I am trying to say
here.. (please don't kill me on details..)
 
 
 Yeah the kicker is that there are no bugs in it (or at least there
 weren't a week or two ago).  Maybe Turbine is perfect? :-D

Dude.. I was searching my ass of on that crashing thing.. I guess it is
perfect then indeed ;).

Mvgr,
Martin



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:38, James Taylor wrote:
 
  My projects haven't come to a grinding halt.  Only on general @ jakarta
 
 But this isn't about your projects, it is about the community, and the
 community is more important than the code. Do you even know why you are
 here?
 

No.. how about you enlighten me?

  -Andy
 
 -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
 realize how little value he brings to the community =)
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread costinm

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

 Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
 
 It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
 community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
 employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
 without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
 because he disappeared.

What harm is James Todd doing ? Since there are 6 months from his last 
activity you can request the removal of his account - but I don't see 
why he ( or James Davidson or Anil ) should be removed for disappearing.
If they'll never come back - that's fine and it doesn't hurts nobody.
But their name remains listed in many source files and should remain 
in the list of commiters.

Todd is still listed in @author tags in quite a few files ( used by both
3.x and 4.x - in tomcat-util package ). And there is nothing wrong with 
9-5 contributions, there are many people who have jobs related with apache
projects. 


Costin





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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
 realize how little value he brings to the community =)

Sorry James, I just _had_ to do this! :) Nothing personal!!! :) :) :)

sarcasm

Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.

I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so
lazy), but hear hear, Costin has 25871, beating Craig who is just at 22712,
and our president (Sam) at 60869... Yes yes, he deserves to be the PMC
president just for that...

This is such a nice way to recognized how much you contributed to the
foundation, isn't it?

Hints for newbies, make your CVS commits small, so your overall activity
meter will grow. Two lines at a time, and if you have a nice file of 1000
lines, you get 500 points just for that...

/sarcasm

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 
 Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
 
 It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
 community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
 employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
 without leaving him with the dues of a committer and make him look bad
 because he disappeared.
 
 What harm is James Todd doing ? Since there are 6 months from his last
 activity you can request the removal of his account - but I don't see
 why he ( or James Davidson or Anil ) should be removed for disappearing.
 If they'll never come back - that's fine and it doesn't hurts nobody.
 But their name remains listed in many source files and should remain
 in the list of commiters.
 
 Todd is still listed in @author tags in quite a few files ( used by both
 3.x and 4.x - in tomcat-util package ). And there is nothing wrong with
 9-5 contributions, there are many people who have jobs related with apache
 projects. 

Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
right to vote, but also the due to vote...

This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are
we undermining that?

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


 Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
 right to vote, but also the due to vote...
 
 This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are
 we undermining that?
 

you also have the right to abstain.  Sometimes you speak loudest by not
speaking at all.

 Pier
 
 --
 [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
 sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
 the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt

 
 Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
 right to vote, but also the due to vote...
 
 This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are
 we undermining that?

Hmm.. democracy is also having the right not to vote. Just don't
complain if you don't like what happened after the vote..

Mvgr,
Martin



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi

From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
 right to vote, but also the due to vote...

 This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country.
Are
 we undermining that?

No, it isn't.
In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.

IMO that a good democracy doesn't need strong feelings: many dictators go to
power with a strong vote with a strong turnout, while one of the major
democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest
turnouts.

Just my 2euros.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt

Maven provides that functionality ;))
see http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/activity-log.html

Mvgr,
Martin

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:28, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
  realize how little value he brings to the community =)
 
 Sorry James, I just _had_ to do this! :) Nothing personal!!! :) :) :)
 
 sarcasm
 
 Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
 you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread James Taylor

 while one of the major
 democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest
 turnouts.

And a lot of people see that as a really bad thing. Turning in an empty
ballot is one thing, but not going to the polls because you can't tear
yourself away from 'Must See TV' is ignoring your responsibility as a
citizen.

-- jt


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


 No, it isn't.
 In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.
 
 IMO that a good democracy doesn't need strong feelings: many dictators go to
 power with a strong vote with a strong turnout, while one of the major
 democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest
 turnouts.
 

For the record, technically the US is a democratic republic and not a
Democracy.  The low turnout in part reflects that.  We vote *against*
things not for them.  Hence our representatives try to say next to
nothing that they could get voted against on.  (this isn't unpatriotic
or a complaint, its just facts).  As a test of this, be an incumbent and
run on something that people are against, make a racist comment or
something...you'll find your opponent does really well.  

For example.  I did vote in the last presidential election, but it made
little sense to do so.  The electoral votes in North Carolina were
decided LONG before I cast my ballet.  So in a sense, when it came to
actually picking the man, my vote actually did not count.  (You vote for
your states electors, the electors vote for the president...so if your
electors vote for the other guy...well your vote meant nothing on the
scale of things...if you don't win...your issues have to wait till next
time)

From my understanding, in most European parliamentary democracies,
generally you vote for more issue-oriented parties.  Even if you loose
you take a certain number of seats.  So it makes sense to vote
regardless of whether its going to be a landslide.

But as far as I know Jakarta is not a democracy...its a meritocracy. 

-Andy

 Just my 2euros.
 
 --
 Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 - verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
 -
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

LOL ;-)

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 12:43, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
 Maven provides that functionality ;))
 see http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/activity-log.html
 
 Mvgr,
 Martin
 
 On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:28, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
  James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
   realize how little value he brings to the community =)
  
  Sorry James, I just _had_ to do this! :) Nothing personal!!! :) :) :)
  
  sarcasm
  
  Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
  you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.
 
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail:   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
 right to vote, but also the due to vote...
 
 This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country.
 Are we undermining that?
 
 No, it isn't.
 In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.

Correct... In every official Apache ballot (foundation crap, legal stuff),
you always have three options:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No
[ ] Abstain

But I feel it's a due for all foundation members to at least tick one of
those boxes (got upset with a couple of very close friends of mine because
they didn't show up at the members meeting last week)...

You can abstain, but you shouldn't ignore...

higher-bandwidth language=italian
Democraticamente parlando, cos'e` piu` giusto, votare scheda bianca o
non andare a votare?
/higher-bandwidth

(Translated it would sound like: what's more right democratically
speaking, going to poll booth and put in an unticked voter's card, or not
even caring about going to vote? - But I don't know if it makes sense in
English... Andy?)

Pier

--
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt

 its a meritocracy. 

Thanx to the Oxfort dictionary I know what it is.. But all democracies
are actually meritocracies according to the dictionary, they select you
to be able to vote when 18+. But this is getting way to Off-Topic I
guess... ;))

Mvgr,
Martin



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread costinm

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

 Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
 you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.
 
 I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so
 lazy), but hear hear, Costin has 25871, beating Craig who is just at 22712,
 and our president (Sam) at 60869... Yes yes, he deserves to be the PMC
 president just for that...

I don't think anyone can find a mail from Craig or Sam (or me) 'bragging' 
about the number of commits or how important of contribution we make and 
how people who contribute 'less' should pay attention. 

I respect Craig mostly for the quality of his code ( even if I prefer 
different solutions and we disagree on many other things ), I respect
Sam the most for keeping a low-key as 'PMC president' ( I never saw
him use the 'I'm the PMC chair' as an argument ).

A smart idea ( like the try/catch unrolling ) is as important as 
100s of commits fixing bugs or 100s of mails answering questions.

Costin


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi

From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
  right to vote, but also the due to vote...
 
  This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country.
  Are we undermining that?
 
  No, it isn't.
  In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.

 Correct... In every official Apache ballot (foundation crap, legal stuff),
 you always have three options:

 [ ] Yes
 [ ] No
 [ ] Abstain

 But I feel it's a due for all foundation members to at least tick one of
 those boxes (got upset with a couple of very close friends of mine because
 they didn't show up at the members meeting last week)...

 You can abstain, but you shouldn't ignore...

 higher-bandwidth language=italian
 Democraticamente parlando, cos'e` piu` giusto, votare scheda bianca o
 non andare a votare?
 /higher-bandwidth

 higher-bandwidth language=italian
 Democraticamente parlando, cos'e` piu` giusto, votare scheda bianca o
 non andare a votare?
 /higher-bandwidth

Dipende dal messaggio che vuoi dare...

 (Translated it would sound like: what's more right democratically
 speaking, going to poll booth and put in an unticked voter's card, or not
 even caring about going to vote? - But I don't know if it makes sense in
 English... Andy?)

I always thought that voters has at least a moral due to vote.

But I have noted that when a democtratic system is sane, the percentages of
the two major parties are similar.
This keeps a healthy tension between them, that keeps the actions of the
ruling party in control.

I have also noted that high turnouts usually mean that the voters are upset
by something, or that the vote is particularly important.
These cases usually involve a lot of tensions.

Out of these simple observations, I have cone not to disdain low turnouts,
and appreciate the fact that there are really 4 votes:

 [ ] Yes
 [ ] No
 [ ] Abstain
 [ ] whatever

Don't we have a similar system (the +-0 is even more)?

+1
-1
+-0
no vote

These votes are different in meaning:

 [ 3] Yes
 [ 1] No
 [ 10] Abstain
 [ 1] Whatever

(I want you to take a decision on this matter, but I don't know what is
best; please try to lobby the -1 or find a compromise)

 [ 3] Yes
 [ 1] No
 [1] Abstain
 [10] Whatever

(I don't care whatever happens, you could even not decide on this issue and
drop it: if there is a -1, don't mind lobbying too much, I will never back
you)

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 12:53, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
  its a meritocracy. 
 
 Thanx to the Oxfort dictionary I know what it is.. But all democracies
 are actually meritocracies according to the dictionary, they select you
 to be able to vote when 18+. But this is getting way to Off-Topic I
 guess... ;))
 

The action worthy of merit being: Surviving adolescence?

 Mvgr,
 Martin
 
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

  Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see
that
  you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.
 
  I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so
  lazy), but hear hear, Costin has 25871, beating Craig who is just at
22712,
  and our president (Sam) at 60869... Yes yes, he deserves to be the PMC
  president just for that...

 I don't think anyone can find a mail from Craig or Sam (or me) 'bragging'
 about the number of commits or how important of contribution we make and
 how people who contribute 'less' should pay attention.

 I respect Craig mostly for the quality of his code ( even if I prefer
 different solutions and we disagree on many other things ), I respect
 Sam the most for keeping a low-key as 'PMC president' ( I never saw
 him use the 'I'm the PMC chair' as an argument ).

 A smart idea ( like the try/catch unrolling ) is as important as
 100s of commits fixing bugs or 100s of mails answering questions.

If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them
at all?

BTW, this is not what you said some days ago:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-generalm=102112907923436w=2

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 19:03, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 The action worthy of merit being: Surviving adolescence?

Too many words I need a dictionary for ;)) (it's hard to discuss stuff
you have to get out of a dictionary, so I will not try that)
I will conclude this day of way too little coding by using the footer I
just seen on Nicola's mail : 

- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

Let's I made the choice to remain ;).


Mvgr,
Martin van den Bemt 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli

Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them
 at all?

If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that
this community has to decide whether a person is a committer or not, given
that as it is today, you're not recognized as a member of this community if
you don't have a CVS account, and your name is not listed in $CVSROOT/avail

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi

From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure
them
  at all?

 If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that
 this community has to decide whether a person is a committer or not, given
 that as it is today, you're not recognized as a member of this community
if
 you don't have a CVS account, and your name is not listed in
$CVSROOT/avail

What is the way that *any* community decides in voting?

You *are* a member of the community even if you do not have an account.

http://xml.apache.org/roles.html   :

Developers

 Developers are the people who write code or documentation patches or
contribute positively to the project in other ways. A developer's
contribution is always recognized. In source code, all developers who
contribute to a source file may add their name to the list of authors for
that file.


A developer *is* part of the community.

This is how it works on the Cocoon, Forrest and POI projects AFAIK.

It seems that you are trying to put on paper that developers that are not
committers have to be listed.

It can be done, but why?

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi

From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  What is the way that *any* community decides in voting?
 
  You *are* a member of the community even if you do not have an account.
 
  http://xml.apache.org/roles.html   :
  
  Developers
 
  Developers are the people who write code or documentation patches or
  contribute positively to the project in other ways. A developer's
  contribution is always recognized. In source code, all developers who
  contribute to a source file may add their name to the list of authors
for
  that file.
  
 
  A developer *is* part of the community.
 
  This is how it works on the Cocoon, Forrest and POI projects AFAIK.
 
  It seems that you are trying to put on paper that developers that are
not
  committers have to be listed.
 
  It can be done, but why?

 Nicola, you might as well ask Stefano who wrote that page... I want to
point
 out one little paragraph below the one you mentioned:

 A Committer has write access to the source code repository and gains
voting
 rights allowing them to affect the future of the subproject.

 A developer, at the end of the day, doesn't have the right to vote. When
it
 comes to numbers, he is worth less than zero... I'm sorry, but this is how
 OUR reality is right now, because we didn't think about it in the first
 place when this project (or XML) were founded (and you can trust me
because
 I was there, both times)...

It does have the right to vote, but it's not binding (at least this is what
Stefano told me two weeks ago).

I don't want developers that are not committers to vote: a vote is important
for the future of the project, and the future of Apache.

Should we give votes to developers that are not interested in the future of
Apache?

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi

From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  It does have the right to vote, but it's not binding (at least this is
what
  Stefano told me two weeks ago).
 
  I don't want developers that are not committers to vote: a vote is
important
  for the future of the project, and the future of Apache.
 
  Should we give votes to developers that are not interested in the future
of
  Apache?

 Nope, we shouldn't but we should give it to those who ARE interested in
the
 future of Jakarta, or XML, and _do_stuff_ for those project, but are not
 bound to a particular codebase.

In cocoon, we have a documentation team now.
Documentation is in CVS.

IMO all should be in CVS, which is the project store, or the mailing lists.

 We should change our meter from being
 you contribute CODE to the project, to you contribure WORK to the project.

You contribute work? Ok, then you become a committer, that gets the *right*
to use the CVS, not the *need*.
If we trust him, why not give him CVS commit access?

I don't understand what rights you want to give to these developers but not
committers.

--
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread costinm

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

  I respect Craig mostly for the quality of his code ( even if I prefer
  different solutions and we disagree on many other things ), I respect
  Sam the most for keeping a low-key as 'PMC president' ( I never saw
  him use the 'I'm the PMC chair' as an argument ).
 
  A smart idea ( like the try/catch unrolling ) is as important as
  100s of commits fixing bugs or 100s of mails answering questions.
 
 If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them
 at all?
 
 BTW, this is not what you said some days ago:
 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-generalm=102112907923436w=2

I believe my message is:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-generalm=102130834717179w=2

And I said exactly the same thing, that small commits are easier to 
review and putting a 'ranking' on a commiter ( by any criteria )
is bad ( not only number of commits - also age, how long he is commiter,
how many flame-wars he participates in or how many bugs he fixes, or 
anything else ). What it matter is that he moves the project forward
and contributes his time and inteligence to the community.  


Costin


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread costinm

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

 Nope, we shouldn't but we should give it to those who ARE interested in the
 future of Jakarta, or XML, and _do_stuff_ for those project, but are not
 bound to a particular codebase. We should change our meter from being
 you contribute CODE to the project, to you contribure WORK to the project.

AFAIK each project can decide and vote to give rights to anyone they
feel deserve it and puts work in the project.

There is no requirement that the work is Java or C - I think there are 
people who focus more on documentation and became commiters for that. It's 
up to each project to decide by the normal rules. 

If you want to propose a lawyer to become commiter on tomcat - I'll be 
more than +1 ( we need one to solve the mystery of the JMX and 
other licences, and that would be an important contribution and worth
of making him commiter ).

I don't think that having CVS access ( without knowing what CVS is )
will be a problem for him. And if he cares or not to vote - again
I don't care.

Costin


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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Ignacio J. Ortega

 De: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Enviado el: sábado 25 de mayo de 2002 19:52

 
 If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is 
 the way that
 this community has to decide whether a person is a committer 
 or not, given
 that as it is today, you're not recognized as a member of 
 this community if
 you don't have a CVS account, and your name is not listed in 
 $CVSROOT/avail
 
 Pier

I Disagree completely..

Mail archives prove you wrong, althought many of the more vocal people
here are committers, nothing blocks anyone to give his opinion and his
vote,more this same thread proves you wrong too,  i can remember someone
someone was proposed last time as PMC member without being a committer..


I'm not the oldest here, 2'5 years, and my contributions are not bigger,
but all i can say from the history i know, that you are simply suffering
some kind of father syndrome, like those fathers that, when his children
grow up, doent want to loose the control they have over his lifes.

Your children is starting to be teenager, and hence dont feels his
father is so important or has the reason everytime, nor that is the
better and in addition is a little castrating as every father..  Well
time will get you to the right place.., now your children is walking on
the avenue ( making a girlfriend!!! :) and sometimes in the future, you
will get a friendship with him and he will learn to respect you..


Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


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[PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-24 Thread Pier Fumagalli

Chatted with a lot of people, seen many, different development models, went
around, asked, talked, and I believe I have a pretty decent picture, and
maybe even a solution...

So the major topic of discussion is that I perceive a substantial difference
between being able to commit code to a CVS repository, and being a
committer committer, with all dues and responsibilities that this role
concerns...

For example sometimes someone might want to have commit access just because
he is working for a company that deals with a particular project in Apache
(we've seen this happening several times with some projects such as Xerces
and Tomcat), but he really doesn't care about the whole fuzz of Apache and
stuff, and once the employment contract ends, the relationship with Apache
terminates as well (I don't need to enumerate all those examples along those
lines).

One other example, if we didn't have Henri building RPMs for basically all
Jakarta projects (and others), or if Henri wasn't a committer on Tomcat,
don't you think that he would deserve committer status even if he's not tied
to any particular codebase? We had this problem in the current election of
the members, Sally Khudairi: Sally doesn't code, but she was involved with
the ASF since before it was even created as a press organizer. Does she
deserve to be a member of the foundation? Even if she doesn't code? Yes she
does, IMO (and she was elected and nominated a member today)...

So, IMO, there's a great difference between being a coder, and being a
member of the Jakarta community, at least in my opinion. There might be
coders who are not involved with the community, and there might be
non-coders who are much involved with it, want to participate, are active
and deserve to be committers...

Our current structure doesn't allow that to happen, both things. If you
need to write code in a particular source-base, and you need CVS access, you
are automagically made a committer, even if you don't care about much else,
and if you're very much involved with the overall project, but not tied to
ANY whatsoever codebase, and really, don't want / can't do it.

So, given this little background, I would like to ask to the PMC, and all
other committers, if others agree that we should splitting the committer
figure in two parts:

- contributor: a contributor is someone who has access to a particular CVS
tree, but for any reason doesn't want/need to be involved with the whole
Jakarta community. He just wants to code his little bit and live a long
life.

- member: is someone who is involved with the Jakarta community, somehow,
somewhere (might be just giving a great deal in supporting users of our
projects, or providing extra value to projects, like guidance in respect to
overall specifications, binary builds). He is effectively a member of the
community and has all the rights and dues of every member, such as
participate in the election of the PMC.

And redefining the figure of the committer as follows:

- committer: is a contributor, but also a member, therefore he has all the
privileges and dues of a contributor (having CVS access, and overlooking the
code he's contributing to) and of a member (can vote for PMCs, should
participate and contribute to discussions on the overall structure of
Jakarta).

I believe this makes sense, more sense than what we have now, also because
we've seen that happening in the ASF for the very first time with a
non-coding member. Comments please?

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-24 Thread Henri Yandell


+1.

Another example if I could. The job role of 'Java admin' is growing more
and more at companies. Developers shouldn't be adminning things, but would
you have your unix or oracle admin be the admin of the Java side with zero
Java knowledge?

Jakarta houses the 'Java' community at Apache but there's no way for a
Java admin to be a part of that community. Helping other admins, writing
documentation, being a consumer at the coders. The only way it can happen
is if they become a coder, and that's contrary to the concept of a Java
admin.

I think Pier's suggestion will help to grow the 'ownership' of the
projects and the apache way of thinking to a larger audience.

Some possible negatives:

With more non-codery people around, will the 'noise' level in mail lists
be too high for coders to want to pay attention?
[It already is getting that way I find. I delete entire threads if the
first couple of mails are not of interest to me. It has to be retitled as
with this email to make me realise there was more going on than the
original mails. ]

By growing a large community of non-coders, the coders could have less say
in the product. Is this good/bad? How would the +1/-1 system work. Would
votes be open to committers only in some instances, and to non-committing
members only in others. Who votes membership vs committership vs
contributorship?


None of them that hard to answer I imagine.

Hen

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

 Chatted with a lot of people, seen many, different development models, went
 around, asked, talked, and I believe I have a pretty decent picture, and
 maybe even a solution...

 So, given this little background, I would like to ask to the PMC, and all
 other committers, if others agree that we should splitting the committer
 figure in two parts:

 - contributor: a contributor is someone who has access to a particular CVS
 tree, but for any reason doesn't want/need to be involved with the whole
 Jakarta community. He just wants to code his little bit and live a long
 life.

 - member: is someone who is involved with the Jakarta community, somehow,
 somewhere (might be just giving a great deal in supporting users of our
 projects, or providing extra value to projects, like guidance in respect to
 overall specifications, binary builds). He is effectively a member of the
 community and has all the rights and dues of every member, such as
 participate in the election of the PMC.

 And redefining the figure of the committer as follows:

 - committer: is a contributor, but also a member, therefore he has all the
 privileges and dues of a contributor (having CVS access, and overlooking the
 code he's contributing to) and of a member (can vote for PMCs, should
 participate and contribute to discussions on the overall structure of
 Jakarta).



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-24 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

-1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.

On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 21:11, Henri Yandell wrote:
 
 +1.
 
 Another example if I could. The job role of 'Java admin' is growing more
 and more at companies. Developers shouldn't be adminning things, but would
 you have your unix or oracle admin be the admin of the Java side with zero
 Java knowledge?
 
 Jakarta houses the 'Java' community at Apache but there's no way for a
 Java admin to be a part of that community. Helping other admins, writing
 documentation, being a consumer at the coders. The only way it can happen
 is if they become a coder, and that's contrary to the concept of a Java
 admin.
 
 I think Pier's suggestion will help to grow the 'ownership' of the
 projects and the apache way of thinking to a larger audience.
 
 Some possible negatives:
 
 With more non-codery people around, will the 'noise' level in mail lists
 be too high for coders to want to pay attention?
 [It already is getting that way I find. I delete entire threads if the
 first couple of mails are not of interest to me. It has to be retitled as
 with this email to make me realise there was more going on than the
 original mails. ]
 
 By growing a large community of non-coders, the coders could have less say
 in the product. Is this good/bad? How would the +1/-1 system work. Would
 votes be open to committers only in some instances, and to non-committing
 members only in others. Who votes membership vs committership vs
 contributorship?
 
 
 None of them that hard to answer I imagine.
 
 Hen
 
 On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 
  Chatted with a lot of people, seen many, different development models, went
  around, asked, talked, and I believe I have a pretty decent picture, and
  maybe even a solution...
 
  So, given this little background, I would like to ask to the PMC, and all
  other committers, if others agree that we should splitting the committer
  figure in two parts:
 
  - contributor: a contributor is someone who has access to a particular CVS
  tree, but for any reason doesn't want/need to be involved with the whole
  Jakarta community. He just wants to code his little bit and live a long
  life.
 
  - member: is someone who is involved with the Jakarta community, somehow,
  somewhere (might be just giving a great deal in supporting users of our
  projects, or providing extra value to projects, like guidance in respect to
  overall specifications, binary builds). He is effectively a member of the
  community and has all the rights and dues of every member, such as
  participate in the election of the PMC.
 
  And redefining the figure of the committer as follows:
 
  - committer: is a contributor, but also a member, therefore he has all the
  privileges and dues of a contributor (having CVS access, and overlooking the
  code he's contributing to) and of a member (can vote for PMCs, should
  participate and contribute to discussions on the overall structure of
  Jakarta).
 
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-24 Thread costinm

-1

If someone doesn't want to be involved in the voting - he can do exaclty
that, abstain. If someone doesn't want to support a particular release -
he can abstain from the release vote( or vote +-0 ). 

If you spend time and write code for a project and are willing to
maintain/support - and if the people on the project vote you in, 
you have the same rights as all the other people on that project.


I do agree ( and I advocated for this a lot ) on lowering ( or 
eliminating) the walls between projects, so jakarta commiters can commit 
code in any jakarta project ( subject to the normal project rules ).
Some people didn't agree with that even for commons, and I accepted the
fact. 

If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice. 



Costin



On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

 Chatted with a lot of people, seen many, different development models, went
 around, asked, talked, and I believe I have a pretty decent picture, and
 maybe even a solution...
 
 So the major topic of discussion is that I perceive a substantial difference
 between being able to commit code to a CVS repository, and being a
 committer committer, with all dues and responsibilities that this role
 concerns...
 
 For example sometimes someone might want to have commit access just because
 he is working for a company that deals with a particular project in Apache
 (we've seen this happening several times with some projects such as Xerces
 and Tomcat), but he really doesn't care about the whole fuzz of Apache and
 stuff, and once the employment contract ends, the relationship with Apache
 terminates as well (I don't need to enumerate all those examples along those
 lines).
 
 One other example, if we didn't have Henri building RPMs for basically all
 Jakarta projects (and others), or if Henri wasn't a committer on Tomcat,
 don't you think that he would deserve committer status even if he's not tied
 to any particular codebase? We had this problem in the current election of
 the members, Sally Khudairi: Sally doesn't code, but she was involved with
 the ASF since before it was even created as a press organizer. Does she
 deserve to be a member of the foundation? Even if she doesn't code? Yes she
 does, IMO (and she was elected and nominated a member today)...
 
 So, IMO, there's a great difference between being a coder, and being a
 member of the Jakarta community, at least in my opinion. There might be
 coders who are not involved with the community, and there might be
 non-coders who are much involved with it, want to participate, are active
 and deserve to be committers...
 
 Our current structure doesn't allow that to happen, both things. If you
 need to write code in a particular source-base, and you need CVS access, you
 are automagically made a committer, even if you don't care about much else,
 and if you're very much involved with the overall project, but not tied to
 ANY whatsoever codebase, and really, don't want / can't do it.
 
 So, given this little background, I would like to ask to the PMC, and all
 other committers, if others agree that we should splitting the committer
 figure in two parts:
 
 - contributor: a contributor is someone who has access to a particular CVS
 tree, but for any reason doesn't want/need to be involved with the whole
 Jakarta community. He just wants to code his little bit and live a long
 life.
 
 - member: is someone who is involved with the Jakarta community, somehow,
 somewhere (might be just giving a great deal in supporting users of our
 projects, or providing extra value to projects, like guidance in respect to
 overall specifications, binary builds). He is effectively a member of the
 community and has all the rights and dues of every member, such as
 participate in the election of the PMC.
 
 And redefining the figure of the committer as follows:
 
 - committer: is a contributor, but also a member, therefore he has all the
 privileges and dues of a contributor (having CVS access, and overlooking the
 code he's contributing to) and of a member (can vote for PMCs, should
 participate and contribute to discussions on the overall structure of
 Jakarta).
 
 I believe this makes sense, more sense than what we have now, also because
 we've seen that happening in the ASF for the very first time with a
 non-coding member. Comments please?
 
 Pier
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-24 Thread Pier Fumagalli

Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 +1.
 
 Another example if I could. The job role of 'Java admin' is growing more
 and more at companies. Developers shouldn't be adminning things, but would
 you have your unix or oracle admin be the admin of the Java side with zero
 Java knowledge?
 
 Jakarta houses the 'Java' community at Apache but there's no way for a
 Java admin to be a part of that community. Helping other admins, writing
 documentation, being a consumer at the coders. The only way it can happen
 is if they become a coder, and that's contrary to the concept of a Java
 admin.

That's where my career is going to lately, I didn't think about that in the
first place. I'm going to loose my committer status soon now that you make
me think about it! :) :) :)

 I think Pier's suggestion will help to grow the 'ownership' of the
 projects and the apache way of thinking to a larger audience.

Thanks...

 Some possible negatives:
 
 With more non-codery people around, will the 'noise' level in mail lists
 be too high for coders to want to pay attention?
 [It already is getting that way I find. I delete entire threads if the
 first couple of mails are not of interest to me. It has to be retitled as
 with this email to make me realise there was more going on than the
 original mails. ]

That might as well happen, although I don't feel that there will be many in
one of the two categories without being a committer. Probably a some more
in the contributor side of things (because of corporate involvement and
stuff), but not the other way around... But I believe that we shouldn't give
up this option...

 By growing a large community of non-coders, the coders could have less say
 in the product. Is this good/bad? How would the +1/-1 system work. Would
 votes be open to committers only in some instances, and to non-committing
 members only in others. Who votes membership vs committership vs
 contributorship?

Regarding votes, I believe that the votes for a particular codebase should
be open only to contributors only of that particular codebase, and that's it
(I'm not going to vote on Ant for example, or Turbine)... Votes regarding
accepting new codebases, starting new subprojects,  electing the PMC, that
should go only to members, not contributors...

My stance would be that if you start off being a contributor, no question
asked (from that point of view)... Patch contribute, do all you want and
need, you have fun? You want to spend more time on it and Jakarta is not
only something you're paid to work on? Kewl, just ask, could be fairly
automatic, it might as well happen automatically if someone nominates you
to do that... I don't think that a vote is even necessary to promote a
committer who wants to be a contributor, talk with someone who can sponsor
you, and I'll be fine...

For the ones who want to start as member, the procedure to become a
committer on one particular projects are already there, as if I wanted to
start giving some patches to (for example) Ant, and get involved with that
codebase...

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-24 Thread Pier Fumagalli

[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I do agree ( and I advocated for this a lot ) on lowering ( or
 eliminating) the walls between projects, so jakarta commiters can commit
 code in any jakarta project ( subject to the normal project rules ).
 Some people didn't agree with that even for commons, and I accepted the
 fact. 

Over my dead body.

 If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
 If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.

Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly... It's not
only rights... It's also dues, right?

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-24 Thread costinm

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

  If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
  If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
 
 Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly... It's not
 only rights... It's also dues, right?

Yes, the 'due' to spend weekends writing code or answering emails or 
reading flame wars. 

Give me a break with the big 'due' to vote or have a say over how the 
project you're involved with. 


Costin 



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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-24 Thread Tim Vernum


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

 If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all 
 other commiters.
 If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice. 

But it's not just about exercising rights, it's also about
granting rights.

At the moment, you cannot grant someone one right (commit access)
without also granting them additional rights (voting etc).

Some people (myself included) would claim that the condition of
entry for those rights, are not equal.

In that case, where do you set the bar? At the bottom or the top?
It seems that that is where this discussion really came from.

Pier set it at the top (the code might be good, but he wasn't 
going to grant someone full committer rights based solely on that),
while you set it closer to the bottom (the code deserved commit 
access, and that implies the other rights).

Personally I'm -0 on this.

I don't think commit access should be so widely given out, because
I think that the developer communities should be larger than the
set of committers.
The voting rules allow for the casting of non-binding votes, but 
they tend not to be used much.
It's fairly easy for non-committers to submit patches, but that puts
a responsibility onto the committers to apply them in a timely fashion.

I'm not a committer on any (sub)project, but I don't think that should
stop me participating and expressing non-binding opinions.

The community is open to non-committers, and you/we should be encouraging
that. Why the rush to vote people in?
There's a number of things that the committer status gives - which ones
are being targeted?

If all you're trying to do is avoid having to apply their patches for 
them, then that's a different discussion (i.e. How do you improve the 
patch-submit-apply process).

If you think that he project needs to include the opinions/ideas of more
people, then listen to the non-binding votes.

I would think that making someone a committer is done in the anticipation
that they will become a core member of the tomcat  Jakarta communities.
The commit/voting rights are just a side effect of that.



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