RE: Just in case you're curious
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Everything is back on the private list again. Odd to discuss including more people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion. It is inappropriate and inconsiderate to discuss individual people on the public list. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:53 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Everything is back on the private list again. Odd to discuss including more people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion. Oh, quit it. Discussing individual people should be done in private to let people speak freely and avoid potential embarassment of those being discussed. geir -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:23:28 -0500 Noel J. Bergman wrote: Everything is back on the private list again. Odd to discuss including more people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion. It is inappropriate and inconsiderate to discuss individual people on the public list. Agreed. We saw over 20 unsubscribers here in these two weeks. Keeping this list a bit quiet would put the brakes on it, maybe ;-) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:23:28 -0500 Noel J. Bergman wrote: Everything is back on the private list again. Odd to discuss including more people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion. It is inappropriate and inconsiderate to discuss individual people on the public list. Agreed. We saw over 20 unsubscribers here in these two weeks. Keeping this list a bit quiet would put the brakes on it, maybe ;-) It should be noisy I reckon. Just that the PMC list has a tiny set of discussions that should happen there [namely adding people to the PMC and some legal worries], which sometimes diverge into something that should move to General. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Just in case you're curious
No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers on the PMC is not to keep discussions out of google. The point of getting them on the PMC is so that the ASF can legally protect them, and so that they are legally empowered to participate in the decisions that govern the project. Would someone please explain what protection committers expect from ASF? And what legal empowerment is being granted? /Larry Rosen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
BIG SNIP Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: ... sensitive things should be on the PMC list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list. /end Geir What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are ashamed of it, don't do open source community. For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source? What do I mean by that: ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit the code to do it. ASF used(?) to be run by commiters. Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for commiters, but does not committ itself?. What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office. The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where have they CVSed latelly. ASF is still very small, $100K in the bank. It's committer volunters and users that use it. No need for a rulling class, what's wrong with peers? Some officers rotated in for admin. If commiters don't get active to make it better, it will get worse. People I know are active in CVS (via CVS posts I see) have said very little relative to people I never see in CVS. Vic (Struts user) Ex: germaine issue, why no public vote of any kind on it ever, else link it for me. I think once germaine is addressed, things go back to normal. None of this : we are not smart enough to understand. This is the only issue that is secret, AFAIK. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote: BIG SNIP Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: ... sensitive things should be on the PMC list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list. /end Geir What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are ashamed of it, don't do open source community. There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes. If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive because of the confusion that it sews. My hope was for us to get our act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it as a group. IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make things clear and non-confusing. For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source? What do I mean by that: ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit the code to do it. ASF used(?) to be run by commiters. Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for commiters, but does not committ itself?. What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office. The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where have they CVSed latelly. Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary. Please re-read. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 22, 2003, at 8:05 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are ashamed of it, don't do open source community. There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes. I agree. Also, I think [PROPOSAL] As it ever were mail was very reasonable. However, just one question came to my mind. Have The Committer Votes (I mean, [VOTE] in to elect new committer) to be taken place at Jakarta PMC list? ... This is very sensitive issue (maybe causes inter-personal dispute), i guess. Could you please explain more? Committer votes haven't taken place on the Jakarta PMC list. PMC member votes have, but that's a different thing. Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects do committer votes in public. Some people outside of Jakarta feel that this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings. I can see both sides of this - do it in public because it's a good pat on the back for a person to see fellow community members supporting him or her, but on the other hand, it would be a shame for people to be unable to say how they feel about a proposed committer and have that POV understood by others w/o possibly hurting the feelings of the person being voted on. I hope this is something we take up when we have this PMC issue sorted out. geir Thanks in advance. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary. Well said. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open. And you know there's a difference. :) Not to me. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open. And you know there's a difference. :) What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive? The recipe to the secret Jakarta Eggnog? I thought Jon took that with him... I think it is: Lots of expensive Bze Cheap store-bought eggnog There... Impeach me. I've divulged the state secrets. -Andy That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested in the subject on the PMC. Then all can participate, and if we discuss something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have to be on Google. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
YES! -- And members, and board, and incubator, and Move it into the open. -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Aaron Bannert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:11:02 -0800 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:58:53AM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? Do you believe there are discussions happening on PMC lists that should be happening on public dev lists? -aaron - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Well, saying please and asking nicely had no effect. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: mvdb.com Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 22 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0100 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of that PMC. Mvgr, Martin On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Now the conversation is here, that is the solution. You're welcome. -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue to do work, such as voting, but follow up. geir Heads up, FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be voting/discussing here. While I'm not sure I agree, out of courtesy, I will vote privately for: * PMC nominations/discussion * legally precarious issues * things too likely to cause me to get slashdotted. I favor openness, but the peanut gallery isn't helpful. Pointedly, I will not discuss the organization, structure, software, etc. of Jakarta on [EMAIL PROTECTED] I will discuss it here. This is my personal choice. I choose to work in the open. I choose to be googled. I volunteered for it in fact. -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:45 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the board's list [in the committers/ cvs module]. I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page. When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people? Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake. I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a batch vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one. This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists. I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue to do work, such as voting, but follow up. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary. While closing out everyone else. Like those who are not yet committers. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote: BIG SNIP Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: ... sensitive things should be on the PMC list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list. /end Geir What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are ashamed of it, don't do open source community. There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes. If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive because of the confusion that it sews. My hope was for us to get our act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it as a group. IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make things clear and non-confusing. For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source? What do I mean by that: ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit the code to do it. ASF used(?) to be run by commiters. Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for commiters, but does not committ itself?. What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office. The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where have they CVSed latelly. Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary. Please re-read. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Andy wrote: FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be voting/discussing here. snip I choose to work in the open. I choose to be googled. I volunteered for it in fact. Well said, I agree with this. But why be so confrontational about it? After all in the tradition of itch scratching you took issue with the private discussions and did something, no one is questioning that it was the right outcome and that we were being half-assed about it, but what is this argument about now? d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant. IIRC, the thread in play at the time was my note to ask the opinion of all PMC members re the CLA signing, to make sure that it was a clear message we all wanted to go out with. IRRC, you never even responded to it. Further, IIRC, there was broad consensus that things should be public (I think it was Peter's first nudge), and we were working that direction. geir On Dec 21, 2003, at 11:04 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Well, saying please and asking nicely had no effect. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: mvdb.com Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 22 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0100 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of that PMC. Mvgr, Martin On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Now the conversation is here, that is the solution. You're welcome. -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
While closing out everyone else. Like those who are not yet committers. I certainly think that increasing the size of the PMC makes it easier for things to get discussed on the PMC list, but if people care (and you do for one) about visibility the very nature of things mean that it won't happen for long before someone starts to get obstreperous. I know from the past that you'd favour a fully open process, but we don't have that. I don't think this should _necessarily_ be a social experiment, in open management, this isn't a political project its about software. d. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote: BIG SNIP Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: ... sensitive things should be on the PMC list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list. /end Geir What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are ashamed of it, don't do open source community. There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes. If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive because of the confusion that it sews. My hope was for us to get our act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it as a group. IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make things clear and non-confusing. For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source? What do I mean by that: ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit the code to do it. ASF used(?) to be run by commiters. Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for commiters, but does not committ itself?. What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office. The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where have they CVSed latelly. Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary. Please re-read. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
You are free to do what you want. Is this then about personal google hitcount? On Dec 21, 2003, at 11:06 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue to do work, such as voting, but follow up. geir Heads up, FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be voting/discussing here. While I'm not sure I agree, out of courtesy, I will vote privately for: * PMC nominations/discussion * legally precarious issues * things too likely to cause me to get slashdotted. I favor openness, but the peanut gallery isn't helpful. Pointedly, I will not discuss the organization, structure, software, etc. of Jakarta on [EMAIL PROTECTED] I will discuss it here. This is my personal choice. I choose to work in the open. I choose to be googled. I volunteered for it in fact. -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:45 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the board's list [in the committers/ cvs module]. I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page. When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people? Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake. I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a batch vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one. This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists. I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue to do work, such as voting, but follow up. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 22, 2003, at 10:31 AM, Danny Angus wrote: While closing out everyone else. Like those who are not yet committers. I certainly think that increasing the size of the PMC makes it easier for things to get discussed on the PMC list, but if people care (and you do for one) about visibility the very nature of things mean that it won't happen for long before someone starts to get obstreperous. Just to save everyone the trip to dictionary.com : ob·strep·er·ous Pronunciation Key (b-str p r- s, b-) adj. 1. Noisily and stubbornly defiant. 2. Aggressively boisterous. I know from the past that you'd favour a fully open process, but we don't have that. I don't think this should _necessarily_ be a social experiment, in open management, this isn't a political project its about software. No one wants things unnecessarily private. The less the better. The less organizational conversation the better - more tech, more community. This stuff is tiring :) geir d. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote: BIG SNIP Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: ... sensitive things should be on the PMC list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list. /end Geir What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are ashamed of it, don't do open source community. There are lots of things. Committer votes, for example, are considered a sensitive issue. Inter-personal disputes. If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive because of the confusion that it sews. My hope was for us to get our act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it as a group. IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make things clear and non-confusing. For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source? What do I mean by that: ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit the code to do it. ASF used(?) to be run by commiters. Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for commiters, but does not committ itself?. What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office. The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where have they CVSed latelly. Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary. Please re-read. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:12:02 -0500 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects do committer votes in public. Some people outside of Jakarta feel that this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings. Yes, HTTP Server Project / APR Project folks often feel that it is improper, it seems. (I am not a HTTPD guy ;-) I've heard such opinions on other lists before. Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in) is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do not have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is. Only one concern. Maybe Jakarta has many *zombie* committers. I hope current (jakartan) voting rule hadn't affected to the *inflated zombies* phenomena. To eliminate *zombie* committers would be one of the critical issues for Jakarta PMC, I imagine. (This is also board members' concern, I imagine) Anyways, I think Jakarta can have Jakartan-Way. Good luck, folks. (And thanks) Sincerely, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Just in case you're curious
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects do committer votes in public. Some people outside of Jakarta feel that this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings. Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in) is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do not have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is. There are good reasons for the guidelines. One of the other Apache projects recently had a situtation where someone proposed a new Committer in public, there was a negative reaction from some people, and it created an unfortunate situation in public. There is no reason to either subject anyone to that, or leave a public record of it. Once the PMC situation is squared away by any of a few approaches, there should be no reason to hold Committer or PMC Member votes in public. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:10:27 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant. +1, Andrew seems to have boundless energy in this regard ;-) ! It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-) (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Noel J. Bergman wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects do committer votes in public. Some people outside of Jakarta feel that this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings. Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in) is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do not have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is. Once the PMC situation is squared away by any of a few approaches, there should be no reason to hold Committer or PMC Member votes in public. Makes sense. Thanks. I'd subscribed to all the -dev lists and downloaded all the archive messages from jakarta.apache.org/mail/**. I found it that if PMC situation would be squared away, PMC list could take over the place for committer votes, too. I had a stats of the contributors' messages and sometimes felt I do want to vote him/her in to XX subproject if I were a committer of this (sub)project where I am not a committer nor a PMC Member. (So, I often did non-binding votes -- +1 to excellent persons ... Right? Adam @ gump) I think you folks can choose the appropriate persons for the jakarta-committership, granted you won't hold Committer votes in public. -- I remember that one of the ASF members has already invented nice voting machine program @ minotaur (wrapper program for qmail, if i remember correctly) -- Maybe you/we will be able to make use of it (Then, PMC list's traffic won't be increased). Hope this helps. Cheers, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Larry, I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw). From what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf of the organization. Further is it seems that the ASF does not believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone would like to join a PMC). This protection is usually referenced when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas. I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice to have one. Happy Holidays -dain /* * Dain Sundstrom * Partner * Core Developers Network */ On Dec 21, 2003, at 9:08 PM, Lawrence E. Rosen wrote: No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers on the PMC is not to keep discussions out of google. The point of getting them on the PMC is so that the ASF can legally protect them, and so that they are legally empowered to participate in the decisions that govern the project. Would someone please explain what protection committers expect from ASF? And what legal empowerment is being granted? /Larry Rosen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote: Larry, I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw). From what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf of the organization. Further is it seems that the ASF does not believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone would like to join a PMC). This protection is usually referenced when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas. I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice to have one. I did respond. As I understand it, here is no protection for PMC members except for the chair, if he or she was acting on behalf of the corporation in good faith. And if you don't know Larry, he's a well-known attorney specializing in OSS matters. geir Happy Holidays -dain /* * Dain Sundstrom * Partner * Core Developers Network */ On Dec 21, 2003, at 9:08 PM, Lawrence E. Rosen wrote: No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers on the PMC is not to keep discussions out of google. The point of getting them on the PMC is so that the ASF can legally protect them, and so that they are legally empowered to participate in the decisions that govern the project. Would someone please explain what protection committers expect from ASF? And what legal empowerment is being granted? /Larry Rosen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 22, 2003, at 5:58 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote: Larry, I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw). From what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf of the organization. Further is it seems that the ASF does not believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone would like to join a PMC). This protection is usually referenced when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas. I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice to have one. I did respond. As I understand it, here is no protection for PMC members except for the chair, if he or she was acting on behalf of the corporation in good faith. Sorry missed your reply. From what I have seen there are vastly differing opinions on this matter (from ranking people in ASF). Anyway, it would be nice to see something official on this matter, but it is a legal matter and therefore unlikely to happen (at least anytime soon ;) And if you don't know Larry, he's a well-known attorney specializing in OSS matters. I know Larry. He used to a company I used to do business with. -dain - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:07 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote: On Dec 22, 2003, at 5:58 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote: Larry, I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw). From what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf of the organization. Further is it seems that the ASF does not believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone would like to join a PMC). This protection is usually referenced when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas. I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice to have one. I did respond. As I understand it, here is no protection for PMC members except for the chair, if he or she was acting on behalf of the corporation in good faith. Sorry missed your reply. From what I have seen there are vastly differing opinions on this matter (from ranking people in ASF). Anyway, it would be nice to see something official on this matter, but it is a legal matter and therefore unlikely to happen (at least anytime soon ;) Feel free to send them to me. I'm interested. I'll be happy to report back a summary or correction. And if you don't know Larry, he's a well-known attorney specializing in OSS matters. I know Larry. He used to a company I used to do business with. Ah Sorry. :) geir -dain - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:13 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:07 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote: On Dec 22, 2003, at 5:58 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote: Larry, I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw). From what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf of the organization. Further is it seems that the ASF does not believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone would like to join a PMC). This protection is usually referenced when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas. I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice to have one. I did respond. As I understand it, here is no protection for PMC members except for the chair, if he or she was acting on behalf of the corporation in good faith. Sorry missed your reply. From what I have seen there are vastly differing opinions on this matter (from ranking people in ASF). Anyway, it would be nice to see something official on this matter, but it is a legal matter and therefore unlikely to happen (at least anytime soon ;) Feel free to send them to me. I'm interested. I'll be happy to report back a summary or correction. I doubt the ASF wants me to make declarations about what legal protections they provide to PMC members. Even if they did want me to come up with a straw man, I wouldn't even know where to start. And if you don't know Larry, he's a well-known attorney specializing in OSS matters. I know Larry. He used to a company I used to do business with. Ah Sorry. :) AHHH... can't type today. Meant to write He use to *represent* a company... -dain - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open. And you know there's a difference. :) Not to me. Wow ... and you say just don't get the difference! ROTFL Stephen. -- Stephen J. McConnell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] || | Magic by Merlin| | Production by Avalon | || | http://avalon.apache.org/merlin| | http://dpml.net/ | || - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Dain Sundstrom wrote: Larry, I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw). From what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf of the organization. Further is it seems that the ASF does not believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone would like to join a PMC). This protection is usually referenced when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas. This conflicts with my own understanding of the situation. I am a member of the Avalon PMC but there is nothing that I am aware of that gives me any protection at all. In fact the recent emails have suggested there is a distinction between the opinion of the chair (recognized) and the opinion of the PMC (not recognized). Basically the PMC can say what it wants - but that does not count at the level of the board. What matters is what the chair states (even if the chair states things that contradict PMC members or PMC collective opinion). I''m also interested in a clarification of the function and purpose of a PMC relative to the Board. Stephen. -- Stephen J. McConnell mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] || | Magic by Merlin| | Production by Avalon | || | http://avalon.apache.org/merlin| | http://dpml.net/ | || - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Just in case you're curious
Lawrence E. Rosen asked: Would someone please explain what protection committers expect from ASF? And what legal empowerment is being granted? I doubt that very many people can answer that question with any authority at all. Certainly not me. The most that I can do for you is provide a couple public references: http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED] .orgmsgNo=2642 http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED] .orgmsgNo=2711 Hope that helps. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-) (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti) Andrew means Strong and Manly. Fairly gender specific. http://www.andythenamebender.com/name-meanings/Andrew.htm I like this: Origin: Shakespearean Meaning: 'Twelfth Night', also called 'What You Will' Sir Andrew Aguecheek. Though I like to think of myself more as Feste albeit my girth gives more truth to the former. ;-) -Andy -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: The Apache Software Foundation, Committer Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:16:44 +0900 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:10:27 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant. +1, Andrew seems to have boundless energy in this regard ;-) ! It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-) (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the board's list [in the committers/ cvs module]. I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page. When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people? Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake. I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a batch vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one. This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists. I received a copy of my nomination from Andrew, back in October. But, as I saw no resolution about the election here, I thought there had been no vote. I have subscribed board@ in December, because Greg encouraged all members doing so. I previously thought I could read the archives but not subscribe to it. Had I done it earlier I would have seen the message to the board confirming the elections in Nov 19. (I did a grep in the archives yesterday, this is how I know now that I have actually been elected, somewhere in november). Regards, Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/5V8RZAeG2a2/nhoRAgjHAJ4iF0klknShwnKVXA/nLZ9im0dcGgCdEq92 7KWBgEm6Q15f6uEjm4rbE5Q= =geuj -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open. What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive? The recipe to the secret Jakarta Eggnog? I thought Jon took that with him... I think it is: Lots of expensive Bze Cheap store-bought eggnog There... Impeach me. I've divulged the state secrets. -Andy That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested in the subject on the PMC. Then all can participate, and if we discuss something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have to be on Google. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of that PMC. Mvgr, Martin On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Now the conversation is here, that is the solution. You're welcome. -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open. And you know there's a difference. :) What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive? The recipe to the secret Jakarta Eggnog? I thought Jon took that with him... I think it is: Lots of expensive Bze Cheap store-bought eggnog There... Impeach me. I've divulged the state secrets. -Andy That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested in the subject on the PMC. Then all can participate, and if we discuss something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have to be on Google. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 07:17:57AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested in the subject on the PMC. Then all can participate, and if we discuss something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have to be on Google. No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers on the PMC is not to keep discussions out of google. The point of getting them on the PMC is so that the ASF can legally protect them, and so that they are legally empowered to participate in the decisions that govern the project. -aaron - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the board's list [in the committers/ cvs module]. I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page. When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people? Regards, Santiago -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQE/5AbBZAeG2a2/nhoRAsL9AJ41+50TCiBen+5weXJpDwW5H71A8wCfYc5R rPzeRQpFq9dNypbNXXDYIy8= =/byG -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 19, 2003, at 12:56 AM, Rainer Klute wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:16 -0500 Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE. But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation. As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand certain private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, should be out in the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on about the Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the knowledge sharing in such metters. That's just as I see it. Discussions should definetly take place HERE. That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested in the subject on the PMC. Then all can participate, and if we discuss something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have to be on Google. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell escribió: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the board's list [in the committers/ cvs module]. I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page. When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people? Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake. I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a batch vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Andrew, The big difference between Geir and you, is that Geir is actually trying to give feedback and explain the situation on what's going on. The only messages I keep reading from you are protests against private lists and that they should be public and for the rest nothing at all constructive. After a year watching your posts I have come to the conclusion that you probably still don't get it : you are the problem. You are part of that private list and have therefore the same responsibility as the other PMC members. If you think as a PMC member (you are that according to the jakarta website) that something should be in the open, just do it, instead of just saying that everything is decided in private without saying what is private.(that is even WORSE than keeping it private!) I think you are way out of line here blaming others, start looking at yourself for once! Hope to hear some constructive things from you in the future.. I don't expect a response from you, since you said you would never want to have anything to do with me, so I respect that. Mvgr, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:16 -0500 Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE. But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation. As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand certain private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, should be out in the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on about the Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the knowledge sharing in such metters. That's just as I see it. Discussions should definetly take place HERE. Best regards Rainer Klute Rainer Klute IT-Consulting GmbH Dipl.-Inform. Rainer Klute E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Körner Grund 24 Telefon: +49 172 2324824 D-44143 Dortmund Telefax: +49 231 5349423 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. | Don't feed | | the trolls | | | | --\|/ -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 17, 2003, at 11:01 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Yep. Do that. Every committer should want to be part of the PMC. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
At 04:19 AM 12/18/2003, you wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently. Just my 2ct... Regards, Serge Huber. - -- --- -=[ shuber2 at jahia dot com ]= --- -- - www.jahia.org : A collaborative source CMS and Portal Server - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently. It's certainly not deliberate. Least I hope not. I guess Andy was trying to shame people into using this list. Go Andy . d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) -- Andy Armstrong, Tagish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? -- Andy Armstrong, Tagish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Whoever knows you as an active committer Andy and is on the PMC. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the board's list [in the committers/ cvs module]. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Yes, very much thanks. -- Andy Armstrong, Tagish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:01:11 -0500 (EST) To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious subjects have been: how the PMC should work organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so far] how to ensure oversight of jakarta general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness [it shouldn't seems the end result here] how to get more CLA's signed by committers log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a bit Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads did anyway. As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Hen On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE. But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation. As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand certain private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, should be out in the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on about the Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the knowledge sharing in such metters. -Harish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Danny Angus wrote: Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE. But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation. So of course we would still be, like MySQL and JBOSS and so many other commercial/open hybrids. OTOH I don't think I'd like participating as much if decisions were imposed by the secret handshakes and arcane knowledge department. From what I can see there is no conspiracy here, just some lack of consideration by people starting threads on the PMC list which would be better off here. Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this open forum. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand certain private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, should be out in the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on about the Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the knowledge sharing in such metters. Harish, First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the PMC, which I'd be happy to do. Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places (including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly just at the My Idea stage. I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us all. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:58 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion of the things that are concerning us. The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the PMC, which I'd be happy to do. Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one. The description on the website is pretty broad. Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places (including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly just at the My Idea stage. I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us all. Absolutely, this kind of stuff, I think, belongs here. -Harish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC mailing list (Re: Just in case you're curious)
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:52 AM, Joe Germuska wrote: Anyone. Interested? I'm interested in being on the PMC mailing list; I just became a Struts committer. My apache ID is germuska. Joe, I took the liberty of cc-ing the general Jakarta list. Congrats on becoming a committer. I hope that your CLA has been signed and sent to the ASF. :) What we are trying to do is expand the Jakarta PMC to give as much inclusion and oversight as possible for all jakarta projects. To that end, we are looking for committers that are interested in the oversight of the projects, not just working on the projects. Fundamentally, this means that the committers are ensuring that the code and other contributions that is being added to the project's CVS is properly contributed (via a committer w/ a CLA or on a public list where it's clear it's a freely given contribution) and properly licensed. This is a subject we'll be discussing more on the general@ list, and I urge you to pay attention, participate and decide if this is something you wish to volunteer for. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:25 -0500 (EST) Henri Yandell wrote: Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this open forum. About the issue of openness and closeness: board@ is *public* for all the ASF members. (Any ASF members can be a *read only member* to the board@ list) board@ is open list? close list? WS (WebServices) project discuss most of the important issues at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] at the same time. [EMAIL PROTECTED] is open list? close list? -- I think that jakarta should choose an appropriate method which suffices for most of the jakarta committers' needs. For example: Create topics for discussion -- PMC list Vote -- general@ (or another appropriate list : important issues) PMC list (trivial issues) Report to all the jakarta committers -- general@ -- Also, please read this (Roy T. Fielding said @ incubator list at Fri, 26 Sep 2003) all the jakarta committers and PMC members -- A release requires 3 +1 and a majority of those voting, wherein the only people allowed to vote are the PMC responsible for that code. In other words, the usual rules apply -- it is simply harder to get the votes. -- According to the bylaws, the only people authorized to make decisions on behalf of the ASF (including the decision to release code to the general public) are officers or the PMC responsible for the project. All other votes are to be ignored or considered advisory only, and no I don't care how long some of our umbrella projects have been ignoring that fact. It seems that most of the committers in jakarta do not know this fact. Before the discussion of *openness/closeness*, I think we should have common understanding on this. Regards, -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion of the things that are concerning us. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. -Andy geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 11:28 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on something. That's commonly known as FUD. I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion of the things that are concerning us. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should join as well. -- Dirk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Dirk Verbeeck wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should join as well. Noted. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
-Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the public? Andrew, I can see how you might see the private list as secretive, devious, or underhanded. I just see a private list as a necessity, I couldn't imagine the % increase in e-mail traffic if the pmc list was open to anyone, or it was carried on the general list. There are enough tangential conversations on the pmc list now, so say doubling the number of posters could increase the volume to 3-4X what it is now. If you feel strongly enough about it, if you wanted to create a digest of what was said by sifting through all the emails here and post it on general daily that would be ok by me. -Rob -Rob - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on something. That's commonly known as FUD. I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? I'm not sure you do. The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ironic. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here. No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness isn't always convenient. -Andy geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 8:02 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private. Isn't everything you disagree with? You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on something. That's commonly known as FUD. I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember what you said. You said that decisions were being made in private. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? I'm not sure you do. But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is you making things up. The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ironic. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here. No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness isn't always convenient. And thinking things through isn't either. But sometimes it must be done. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember what you said. You said that decisions were being made in private. Oh yes, I hallucinated the [VOTE] threads too. Damn those hallucinations. I hallucinated the refactoring proposal and everything. Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here. Why should we describe it if when we can let it describe itself? Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just that I disagree. See the difference? I'm not sure you do. But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is you making things up. No Gier, take a deep breath and determine whether you distinguish yourself with this conversation. I shall give you the honor of the last word. -Andy The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :) Glad you caught that. The private list of any PMC has it's place. The specific problem we are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as much of the community as possible into that governance process to make things as transparent and accountable as possible. Because there is this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP. Ironic. Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO. Yeah right. I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here. No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret... Openness isn't always convenient. And thinking things through isn't either. But sometimes it must be done. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:39 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Who's the best person to nudge then? :) Anyone. Interested? Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should join as well. Either you believe that everyone should join (as I do), or that no one should join (as the break up Jakarta crowd would implicitly have it) other than to run a website. You get a big welcome from me if the former, and a good luck, do good work from me if the latter. geir -- Dirk - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
subjects have been: how the PMC should work organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so far] how to ensure oversight of jakarta general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness [it shouldn't seems the end result here] how to get more CLA's signed by committers log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a bit Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads did anyway. As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta. Hen On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its general membership. In fact they probably most definitively disagree with everything espoused in the above email. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just in case you're curious
On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:19:41 -0500 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on private lists now. It would be okay unless all the decisions will have been made on infrastructure@ list. ... ;-) -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
