On Thu, 2002-05-30 at 01:49, Ted Husted wrote:
If you accept a nomination to be a committer, and gain CVS access, then
you can apply your own patches. Since most of use the products we patch,
this is an important benefit to most contributors. If you happen to see
a patch from another
Case can be made that since putting something in CVS is putting
something up for lazy majority vote (and I subscribe to that), this is
not a good 'use case'. But what is wrong with a role for people that
have the option to propose something for a lazy majority vote, and then
no
Yeah, exactly. And what if there is someone who actually wants less
responsibility and less rights than a committer, but still more than a
contributor?
-1
It is all about granularity: less rights, less responsibility.
Gee I'd like to dump my code
here and not bother with the
On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 14:04, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Yeah, exactly. And what if there is someone who actually wants less
responsibility and less rights than a committer, but still more than a
contributor?
-1
why?
Does the term white elephant mean anything to you?
thought that
From: Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 14:04, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
I don't think
there is anything to forbid a community from temporarily granting CVS
access.
;)
Well, I think our guidelines forbid us. You cannot give someone CVS
access without giving them all
28, 2002 5:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...
...
A developer can suggest a change.
A committer can make it happen.
- Sam Ruby
Anyone can suggest a change.
A developer can submit a patch.
A committer can make
thought that was a special kind of elephant...
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=white%20elephant
...does now.
In some Asian cultures, a particularaly cruel way to blight someone you
didn't like was to gift them a
white elephant. They'd need to feed and take care of it because they
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
From: Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 14:04, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
I don't think
there is anything to forbid a community from temporarily granting CVS
access.
;)
Well, I think our guidelines forbid us. You cannot give someone
Leo Simons wrote:
On Wed, 2002-05-29 at 15:50, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
Despite all the arguments I still can NOT see why it should be
more complicated than this (Sam + Jon definitions).
there's been numerous examples mentioned in this thread.
Also, the system already _is_ more
Why is increased granularity in role/right/responsibility bad in
general?
1. Because it is a cop out.
http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=cop%20out (I'm learning today =)
which one do you mean?
/**/
To avoid fulfilling a commitment or responsibility; renege: copped out
on 5/29/02 7:23 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
to me the point that Pier was trying to get accross that I agreed with
is that there is sometimes work that happens
outside of CVS worthy of committership (and/or that should require
committership) irrelevant of CVS access.
Yea,
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
on 5/29/02 7:23 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
to me the point that Pier was trying to get accross that I agreed with
is that there is sometimes work that happens
outside of CVS worthy of committership (and/or that should require
committership)
on 5/29/02 1:47 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I got shot down by the POI community.
Sounds like a common thread, eh?
;-)
-jon
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Ted Husted wrote:
I believe the fundamental principal behind our system is
Them that does the work makes the decisions.
+1
I believe a secondary principal behind our system is
Thanks for volunteering.
+1
- Sam Ruby
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For
on 5/29/02 4:53 PM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ted Husted wrote:
I believe the fundamental principal behind our system is
Them that does the work makes the decisions.
+1
I believe a secondary principal behind our system is
Thanks for volunteering.
+1
- Sam Ruby
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
on 5/29/02 1:47 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I got shot down by the POI community.
Sounds like a common thread, eh?
Not sure what you mean. How's the bar doing?
-Andy
;-)
-jon
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Since this is a volunteer organization, and we all have other pressing
responsibilities, it is important that we do not encourage any systemic
bottlenecks.
I wrote:
user: no rights, no responsibilities
developer: right to get quoted as author for authored pieces, no
responsibility
Leo Simons wrote:
Since committing is voting, what I think what some people want is a
non-vetoing Committer.
I think 'some people' don't see/don't agree to the committing is
voting, and then what they want is a Developer-with-CVS-access, which
is more or less what they said.
Committing
on 5/28/02 12:12 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Leo Simons wrote:
Since committing is voting, what I think what some people want is a
non-vetoing Committer.
I think 'some people' don't see/don't agree to the committing is
voting, and then what they want is a
On Tue, 2002-05-28 at 17:36, Leo Simons wrote:
On Tue, 2002-05-28 at 14:20, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
I totally disagree with everything you just said.
Uhm, I think you disagree with the idea we should have
'developers/contributors' with CVS access who are not committers. I'm
not sure
Hi,
I would love to be able to give people partiial access to projects and I would
also love to expire accounts if they are dormant or the person goes MIA.
For instance the first one would be especially useful in projects like ant,
excalibur and commons. Many times in ant the committers have
Hi Andrew,
-Mensaje original-
De: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Enviado el: sábado 25 de mayo de 2002 18:39
Para: Jakarta General List
Asunto: Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...
From my understanding, in most European parliamentary democracies
+ some mailing list management software + some product release software) it
would be very beneficial to push the administration down onto project leads
So we'll also have 'project leads' ?
And some people who write and maintain code, but have different rights ?
we have, in practice,
I think the real point is that while, given the chance, some people may
prefer to do one thing or another, as Committers we all can potentially
do anything that needs to be done whenever we have time to do it.
Since this is a volunteer organization, and we all have other pressing
Ted Husted wrote:
Since committing is voting...
+1
- Sam Ruby
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On Tue, 28 May 2002 03:12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
+ some mailing list management software + some product release software)
it would be very beneficial to push the administration down onto project
leads
So we'll also have 'project leads' ?
we
+0
I like this, I think it is needed, as it should help to extend the
experience and knowledge of the community by acknowledging the services of
non-coders.
I believe, though, that as sub-projects grow we will eventually need to
address the issue of scope, but in the meantime this would be an
But Pier, it doesn't address your original problem though, does it?
Which was about the bar height, or how to encourage contributors, and
increase the number of contributors without diluting, and clogging up, the
community and decision making processes.
Total and complete agreement. Well
Those who do the work of creating a Jakarta product are entitled to make
the decisions regarding that product. A successful product is more than
code, it also requires documentation and support and easy-to-use
distributions.
Whether a patch is to the code or the documentation isn't relevant.
PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...
Those who do the work of creating a Jakarta product are entitled to make
the decisions regarding that product. A successful product is more than
code, it also requires documentation
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...
On Sun, 26 May 2002, Ignacio J. Ortega wrote:
but all i can say from the history i know
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly...
Tim Vernum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all
other commiters.
If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
But it's not just about exercising rights, it's also about
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it.
It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
employment and terminate his working (9 to 5)
On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:04:24PM +0100, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
I am a +1 on Piers proposal.
Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
be very constructive for this community!
Designers, politicians,
Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
sys admins, people with great ideas (the thinkers) etc,etc.. A
community is more then just programming, although it is our core
business here. Others can give us a look at
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
I am a +1 on Piers proposal.
Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
be very
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 09:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it.
It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave
Andy,
With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess.
In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all
of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it
still veto'd its no use investing spare time in.
I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as
I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.
I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. I'll be
implementing that shortly. (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)
-Andy
On Sat,
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:16, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.
Then I fail to see your connection with my story too..
I'll Give it try anyway : If no one cares or just one person cares and
needs to vote of all to get things
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.
I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. I'll be
implementing that shortly. (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
2. Install Scarab on it for
My projects haven't come to a grinding halt. Only on general @ jakarta
But this isn't about your projects, it is about the community, and the
community is more important than the code. Do you even know why you are
here?
-Andy
-- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him
The converse: You all can vote all day long on what I'm to do, but what
are you going to do when my dissenting vote is cast by me not actually
doing it? Voting has NOTHING to do with what work gets done. Thats the
POWER of those who do.
We are talking about this proposal am I right not
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:38, James Taylor wrote:
My projects haven't come to a grinding halt. Only on general @ jakarta
But this isn't about your projects, it is about the community, and the
community is more important than the code. Do you even know why you are
here?
No.. how about
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it.
It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
realize how little value he brings to the community =)
Sorry James, I just _had_ to do this! :) Nothing personal!!! :) :) :)
sarcasm
Just need to grep the right files... You are a good
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it.
It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
community, nor James Gonzo
Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
right to vote, but also the due to vote...
This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are
we undermining that?
you also have the right to abstain. Sometimes you speak loudest by not
Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
right to vote, but also the due to vote...
This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are
we undermining that?
Hmm.. democracy is also having the right not to vote. Just don't
complain if
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
right to vote, but also the due to vote...
This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country.
Are
we undermining that?
No, it isn't.
In a true democracy, one
Maven provides that functionality ;))
see http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/activity-log.html
Mvgr,
Martin
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:28, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
realize how little
while one of the major
democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest
turnouts.
And a lot of people see that as a really bad thing. Turning in an empty
ballot is one thing, but not going to the polls because you can't tear
yourself away from 'Must See TV' is ignoring
No, it isn't.
In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.
IMO that a good democracy doesn't need strong feelings: many dictators go to
power with a strong vote with a strong turnout, while one of the major
democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest
LOL ;-)
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 12:43, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
Maven provides that functionality ;))
see http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/activity-log.html
Mvgr,
Martin
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:28, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
-- jt (who is
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
right to vote, but also the due to vote...
This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country.
Are we undermining
its a meritocracy.
Thanx to the Oxfort dictionary I know what it is.. But all democracies
are actually meritocracies according to the dictionary, they select you
to be able to vote when 18+. But this is getting way to Off-Topic I
guess... ;))
Mvgr,
Martin
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On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.
I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so
lazy), but hear hear, Costin has 25871, beating
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
right to vote, but also the due to vote...
This is one of the fundamental concepts of any
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 12:53, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
its a meritocracy.
Thanx to the Oxfort dictionary I know what it is.. But all democracies
are actually meritocracies according to the dictionary, they select you
to be able to vote when 18+. But this is getting way to Off-Topic I
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see
that
you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.
I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so
lazy), but hear hear,
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 19:03, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
The action worthy of merit being: Surviving adolescence?
Too many words I need a dictionary for ;)) (it's hard to discuss stuff
you have to get out of a dictionary, so I will not try that)
I will conclude this day of way too little coding by
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them
at all?
If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that
this community has to decide whether a person is a committer or not, given
that as it is
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure
them
at all?
If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that
this community has to decide whether a person
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What is the way that *any* community decides in voting?
You *are* a member of the community even if you do not have an account.
http://xml.apache.org/roles.html :
Developers
Developers are
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It does have the right to vote, but it's not binding (at least this is
what
Stefano told me two weeks ago).
I don't want developers that are not committers to vote: a vote is
important
for the future
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
I respect Craig mostly for the quality of his code ( even if I prefer
different solutions and we disagree on many other things ), I respect
Sam the most for keeping a low-key as 'PMC president' ( I never saw
him use the 'I'm the PMC chair'
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
Nope, we shouldn't but we should give it to those who ARE interested in the
future of Jakarta, or XML, and _do_stuff_ for those project, but are not
bound to a particular codebase. We should change our meter from being
you contribute CODE to the
De: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Enviado el: sábado 25 de mayo de 2002 19:52
If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is
the way that
this community has to decide whether a person is a committer
or not, given
that as it is today, you're not recognized as
Chatted with a lot of people, seen many, different development models, went
around, asked, talked, and I believe I have a pretty decent picture, and
maybe even a solution...
So the major topic of discussion is that I perceive a substantial difference
between being able to commit code to a CVS
+1.
Another example if I could. The job role of 'Java admin' is growing more
and more at companies. Developers shouldn't be adminning things, but would
you have your unix or oracle admin be the admin of the Java side with zero
Java knowledge?
Jakarta houses the 'Java' community at Apache but
-1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it.
On Fri, 2002-05-24 at 21:11, Henri Yandell wrote:
+1.
Another example if I could. The job role of 'Java admin' is growing more
and more at companies. Developers shouldn't be adminning things, but would
you have your unix or
-1
If someone doesn't want to be involved in the voting - he can do exaclty
that, abstain. If someone doesn't want to support a particular release -
he can abstain from the release vote( or vote +-0 ).
If you spend time and write code for a project and are willing to
maintain/support - and if
Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
+1.
Another example if I could. The job role of 'Java admin' is growing more
and more at companies. Developers shouldn't be adminning things, but would
you have your unix or oracle admin be the admin of the Java side with zero
Java knowledge?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I do agree ( and I advocated for this a lot ) on lowering ( or
eliminating) the walls between projects, so jakarta commiters can commit
code in any jakarta project ( subject to the normal project rules ).
Some people didn't agree with that even for
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly... It's not
only rights... It's also dues,
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all
other commiters.
If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
But it's not just about exercising rights, it's also about
granting rights.
At the moment, you
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