Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Fear]

My friend says this update broke permissions for file saving. The game
cannot write new files. He said to send these errors:

Saving C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress
2\tf\tf2_sound_vo_english.vpk.sound.cacheWARN_FILEWRITE - Asked to write to
'C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress
2\tf\tf2_sound_vo_english.vpk.sound.cache', but we don't own that location.
Disallowing.Saving C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team
Fortress 2\tf\tf2_sound_misc.vpk.sound.cacheWARN_FILEWRITE - Asked to write
to 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress
2\tf\tf2_sound_misc.vpk.sound.cache', but we don't own that location.
Disallowing.

WARN_FILEWRITE - Asked to write to 'C:\Program Files
(x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress
2\tf\maps\koth_ashville_rc1.nav', but we don't own that location.
Disallowing.Unable to save 1048576 bytes to C:\Program Files
(x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress
2\tf\maps\koth_ashville_rc1.navWARN_FILEWRITE - Asked to write to
'C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress
2\tf\maps\koth_ashville_rc1.nav.failedsave', but we don't own that
location. Disallowing.

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019 at 9:11 PM John Schoenick 
wrote:

> We've released an optional update for Team Fortress 2. The note for the
> update is below. The new server version number is 5369619 .
>
> Server operators only need to install this update if they are
> experiencing the issue below.
>
> - John
>
> -
>
> - Fixed error with certain mapcyclefile names for Windows dedicated servers
>
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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[John Schoenick]

We've released an optional update for Team Fortress 2. The note for the
update is below. The new server version number is 3914266.

Server operators only need to install this update if they are
experiencing the crash below.

- John

-

- Fixed crash when running on systems without AVX support



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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[John Schoenick]

We've released an optional update for Team Fortress 2. The note for the
update is below. The new server version number is 3703329.

Community servers only need this update if they are interested in the
CELT codec beta.  The mentioned ReadPreserveEnt fix is a client-side
update only.

- John

 -

- Returned Unusual drop chances and possible particles effects to their
original values now that Halloween has ended
- Added beta support for the CELT voice codec
- Currently only enabled in community servers that opt-in to the beta
- Server operators can enable CELT usage by setting the below
convars, followed by a level change
- sv_use_steam_voice 0
- sv_voicecodec vaudio_celt
- Updated the localization files
- Fixed an occasional client crash with an error message regarding
"CL_ReadPreserveEnt"


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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[John Schoenick]

We've released an optional update for Team Fortress 2. The note for the
update is below. The new server version number is 3600545.

- John

-

- Fixthe Righteous Bison projectiles colliding with, but not impacting,
some doors (ex. the BLU spawn doors of cp_mountainlab)
- Updated the localization files

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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released (heads up @ bootcamp operators)

[John Schoenick]

An optional update is available for TF2 servers. The new version number
is 3593021.  This update is only needed if you are running bootcamp. 
There are no player-visible changes.

For bootcamp server operators: This update is in preparation for TF
system maintenance that will occur later today.  It fixes an issue
related to matchmaking communication with the TF system -- *bootcamp
servers that have *not* updated by time the maintenance occurs may have
their matches in progress interrupted at that time*.

We expect said maintenance to occur in about an hour.

- John

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[supp...@boomgaming.net]

Thank God this was fixed! It sucks to spend over an hour on a mission and
have it crash. And it happened to my group 3 times. Thanks for fixing it so
quickly!

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 3:21 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:

> We've released an optional update for Team Fortress 2. The note for the
> update is below. You only need to update if your server has been crashing
> since the TF2 update earlier this week.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Eric
>
> ---
>
> - Fixed a common server crash that primarily occurred during Mann vs.
> Machine matches
>
>
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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Eric Smith]

We've released an optional update for Team Fortress 2. The note for the update 
is below. You only need to update if your server has been crashing since the 
TF2 update earlier this week.

Thanks.

-Eric

---

- Fixed a common server crash that primarily occurred during Mann vs. Machine 
matches


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Saint K.]

Are you absolutely nuts?



 From:   Jacob <jwguzz...@yahoo.com> 
 To:   Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list 
<hlds@list.valvesoftware.com> 
 Sent:   7/8/2016 7:08 AM 
 Subject:   Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released 



This might not be the correct place for this, and I'm sorry if it's not, but 
are there any plans to return quickplay?

On Jul 8, 2016, at 12:58 AM, Eric Smith <er...@valvesoftware.com> wrote:


 
 
We’ve released an optional dedicated server update the fixes the Medic’s run 
speed not adjusting when his heal target is killed. You do not need this update 
unless you are experiencing this problem. 
  
Thanks. 
  
-Eric 
  
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Christian Deacon]

After applying this optional update, my server crashed with the 
following engine error on map change:


Engine error: Unable to load manifest file 
'scripts/soundscapes_manifest.txt'



Is there anybody else having this issue? My server was running stable 
with population for hours but as soon as I applied this optional update, 
the server crashed on the next map change. Sadly, I can't reproduce the 
crash by simply changing the map.



There is a possibility the update wasn't applied right. Therefore, I've 
reapplied the update. I'll post here again if my server crashes with the 
same error again.



Thanks.


On 7/8/2016 12:58 AM, Eric Smith wrote:


We’ve released an optional dedicated server update the fixes the 
Medic’s run speed not adjusting when his heal target is killed. You do 
not need this update unless you are experiencing this problem.


Thanks.

-Eric



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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Jacob]

This might not be the correct place for this, and I'm sorry if it's not, but 
are there any plans to return quickplay?

On Jul 8, 2016, at 12:58 AM, Eric Smith  wrote:

We’ve released an optional dedicated server update the fixes the Medic’s run 
speed not adjusting when his heal target is killed. You do not need this update 
unless you are experiencing this problem.
 
Thanks.
 
-Eric
 
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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Eric Smith]

We've released an optional dedicated server update the fixes the Medic's run 
speed not adjusting when his heal target is killed. You do not need this update 
unless you are experiencing this problem.

Thanks.

-Eric

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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Eric Smith]

We've released an optional update for TF2. The update fixes a server crash 
exploit in PASS Time mode related to dropped weapons and the jack. You do not 
need this update if you're not running PASS Time mode.

Thanks.

-Eric


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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[John Schoenick]

We've released an optional server update for TF2 that fixes a crash related to 
Mannpower mode.  You only need to update your server if you are running 
Mannpower and experiencing this crash.

Thanks.

- John
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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Eric Smith]

We've released an optional update for TF2 that fixes an exploit related to 
changing teams while in bumper car mode. You only need to update your server if 
you are experiencing players exploiting this problem.

Thanks.

-Eric


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[epi]

Yes, you can connect to sourcetv in insecure mode. This is how
teamfortress.tv and other casting organizations use their caster's
cheats (player and projectile outlines, health bars, etc.)

On 10/14/2015 11:01 AM, Peter Jerde wrote:
> 
>> On Oct 13, 2015, at 12:53 PM, HD  wrote:
>>
>> As I figured though not a single response from valve once again on this 
>> topic.
>>  
> 
> Probably because this is a server list, and you’re bringing up a client issue.
> 
> Also, you repeatedly said that it’s a “real” client you would use to “seed”, 
> as though that somehow makes it okay. The point is you wouldn’t be a real 
> _player_. Joining a server with a textmode client violates the spirit of the 
> policy of truth, in my opinion, because you’d be showing up as a player when 
> in fact you were not. (A console may be a real “client” but certainly not a 
> real player).
> 
> In my community, when someone says, “hey, let’s start up one of our empty 
> servers” we get three or four people to actually PLAY until others join and 
> quickplay finally kicks in when it’s about half full. That’s how to seed a 
> server.
> 
> 
> As far as monitoring voice in real time, have you tried enabling sourcetv, 
> though? I wonder if you can join your sourcetv port (default 27020) in 
> insecure mode? That might work.
> 
>  - Peter
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Peter Jerde]

> On Oct 13, 2015, at 12:53 PM, HD  wrote:
> 
> As I figured though not a single response from valve once again on this topic.
>  

Probably because this is a server list, and you’re bringing up a client issue.

Also, you repeatedly said that it’s a “real” client you would use to “seed”, as 
though that somehow makes it okay. The point is you wouldn’t be a real 
_player_. Joining a server with a textmode client violates the spirit of the 
policy of truth, in my opinion, because you’d be showing up as a player when in 
fact you were not. (A console may be a real “client” but certainly not a real 
player).

In my community, when someone says, “hey, let’s start up one of our empty 
servers” we get three or four people to actually PLAY until others join and 
quickplay finally kicks in when it’s about half full. That’s how to seed a 
server.


As far as monitoring voice in real time, have you tried enabling sourcetv, 
though? I wonder if you can join your sourcetv port (default 27020) in insecure 
mode? That might work.

 - Peter



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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Rudy Bleeker]

>From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:

- Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
> Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
> -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so often to
> "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason now I get the
> "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you can connect to secure
> servers.".
>
> I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started after last
> nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that computer but nothing
> has changed.
> I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it on
> another computer and it did the exact same thing.
>
> Anyone able to explain this?
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
> Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional dedicated
> server update and is not required unless you are running any of the Invasion
> maps and would like to support this new feature.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Eric
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[1nsane]

Oh, haven't actually tried it in a long time.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 9:06 AM, Asher Baker  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:59 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> And yes there is a server side setting for that. Start the server
>> with -insecure and all clients will be able to join.
>
>
> That hasn't worked for a very long time.
>
> ~
> "Their heads are green, and their hands are blue,
>   And they went to sea in a Sieve." - Edward Lear
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[N-Gon]

Back when I ran servers I used to use Sandboxie and a bunch of accounts in
textmode to help populate my servers.
It's a struggle when you don't have a well known community, I feel bad for
the folks who've just been hurt by this change.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

> Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it for a
> client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of resources.
> Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides launching
> the game in full and alt tabbing now.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Rudy Bleeker
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:
>
> - Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
> > Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
> > -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so
> > often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason
> > now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you
> > can connect to secure servers.".
> >
> > I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started
> > after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that
> > computer but nothing has changed.
> > I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it
> > on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
> >
> > Anyone able to explain this?
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
> >
> > We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
> > Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional
> > dedicated server update and is not required unless you are running any
> > of the Invasion maps and would like to support this new feature.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -Eric
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
> >
> >
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>
>
>
> --
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>   - Floyd Dell
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[HD]

I used it to log ONE client in so I could seed with it and hear what was going 
on in the server. Additionally it was nice to see on my screen at home what was 
going on thru the console too vs remote desktop into the server. I can’t speak 
for everyone else but even still a REAL CLIENT is a real client…not Fake player 
counts. Regardless of how many you log in if they are REAL clients which they 
were then I don’t see the issue with that at all. That is much different then 
coding in fake clients showing up or fake numbers for server population.

 

Either way this is just stupid and pointless to argue since we won’t hear a 
damn word from Valve on this or anything else when it comes to Servers with 
this game. I’m kinda sick of it and damn near ready to say the hell with it all 
and their games.

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Sanderson
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:04 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

Just so we're clear, you guys were only using this to fake player counts on 
your servers? Where's the negative impact here? This sounds like a much needed 
change to prevent scumbaggery.

Kyle.

On 13 Oct 2015 6:14 a.m., "N-Gon" <ngongamedes...@gmail.com> wrote:

Back when I ran servers I used to use Sandboxie and a bunch of accounts in 
textmode to help populate my servers.

It's a struggle when you don't have a well known community, I feel bad for the 
folks who've just been hurt by this change.

 

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it for a
client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of resources.
Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides launching
the game in full and alt tabbing now.


-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Rudy Bleeker
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

>From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:

- Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
> Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
> -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so
> often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason
> now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you
> can connect to secure servers.".
>
> I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started
> after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that
> computer but nothing has changed.
> I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it
> on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
>
> Anyone able to explain this?
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
> Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional
> dedicated server update and is not required unless you are running any
> of the Invasion maps and would like to support this new feature.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Kyle Sanderson]

Just so we're clear, you guys were only using this to fake player counts on
your servers? Where's the negative impact here? This sounds like a much
needed change to prevent scumbaggery.

Kyle.
On 13 Oct 2015 6:14 a.m., "N-Gon" <ngongamedes...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Back when I ran servers I used to use Sandboxie and a bunch of accounts in
> textmode to help populate my servers.
> It's a struggle when you don't have a well known community, I feel bad for
> the folks who've just been hurt by this change.
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
>
>> Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it for
>> a
>> client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of resources.
>> Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides
>> launching
>> the game in full and alt tabbing now.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Rudy Bleeker
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>>
>> From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:
>>
>> - Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
>> > Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
>> > -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so
>> > often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason
>> > now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you
>> > can connect to secure servers.".
>> >
>> > I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started
>> > after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that
>> > computer but nothing has changed.
>> > I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it
>> > on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
>> >
>> > Anyone able to explain this?
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
>> > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
>> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
>> > Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>> >
>> > We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
>> > Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional
>> > dedicated server update and is not required unless you are running any
>> > of the Invasion maps and would like to support this new feature.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > -Eric
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> > please visit:
>> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything.
>>   - Floyd Dell
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> please visit:
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>>
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Asher Baker]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:59 PM, 1nsane <1nsane...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And yes there is a server side setting for that. Start the server
> with -insecure and all clients will be able to join.


That hasn't worked for a very long time.

~
"Their heads are green, and their hands are blue,
  And they went to sea in a Sieve." - Edward Lear
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[1nsane]

Log streaming to something like HLSW or using a plugin to record
chat/events to a database with a website.

HLSW should use even less resources than textmode client.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

> Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it for a
> client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of resources.
> Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides launching
> the game in full and alt tabbing now.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Rudy Bleeker
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:
>
> - Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
> > Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
> > -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so
> > often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason
> > now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you
> > can connect to secure servers.".
> >
> > I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started
> > after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that
> > computer but nothing has changed.
> > I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it
> > on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
> >
> > Anyone able to explain this?
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
> >
> > We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
> > Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional
> > dedicated server update and is not required unless you are running any
> > of the Invasion maps and would like to support this new feature.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -Eric
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
>
> --
> Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything.
>   - Floyd Dell
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
> ___
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> please visit:
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[1nsane]

That's probably the reason for it.

And yes there is a server side setting for that. Start the server
with -insecure and all clients will be able to join.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:53 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

> I could do that but then I’m also missing that client logged in which
> helps seed. Every client helps these days and I can’t do that now. I will
> log my account in and just let it sit, listen and seed a while.  I
> understand the alternatives but an explaination from Valve as to why this
> change was even made is needed as there wasn’t a valid one that I can come
> up with.
>
> Perhaps a server side setting to let “insecure” clients log in.
>
>
>
> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *1nsane
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:50 AM
>
> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
>
>
> Log streaming to something like HLSW or using a plugin to record
> chat/events to a database with a website.
>
>
>
> HLSW should use even less resources than textmode client.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
>
> Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it for a
> client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of resources.
> Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides launching
> the game in full and alt tabbing now.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Rudy Bleeker
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:
>
> - Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
> > Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
> > -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so
> > often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason
> > now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you
> > can connect to secure servers.".
> >
> > I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started
> > after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that
> > computer but nothing has changed.
> > I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it
> > on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
> >
> > Anyone able to explain this?
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-----
> > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> > Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
> > To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
> >
> > We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
> > Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional
> > dedicated server update and is not required unless you are running any
> > of the Invasion maps and would like to support this new feature.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -Eric
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
>
> --
> Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything.
>   - Floyd Dell
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
> ___
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> please visit:
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>
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[HD]

Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it for a
client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of resources. 
Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides launching
the game in full and alt tabbing now.


-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Rudy Bleeker
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

>From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:

- Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
> Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using 
> -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so 
> often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason 
> now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you 
> can connect to secure servers.".
>
> I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started 
> after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that 
> computer but nothing has changed.
> I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it 
> on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
>
> Anyone able to explain this?
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion 
> Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional 
> dedicated server update and is not required unless you are running any 
> of the Invasion maps and would like to support this new feature.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, 
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



--
Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything.
  - Floyd Dell

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[HD]

I could do that but then I’m also missing that client logged in which helps 
seed. Every client helps these days and I can’t do that now. I will log my 
account in and just let it sit, listen and seed a while.  I understand the 
alternatives but an explaination from Valve as to why this change was even made 
is needed as there wasn’t a valid one that I can come up with.

Perhaps a server side setting to let “insecure” clients log in.

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 8:50 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

Log streaming to something like HLSW or using a plugin to record chat/events to 
a database with a website.

 

HLSW should use even less resources than textmode client.

 

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it for a
client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of resources.
Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides launching
the game in full and alt tabbing now.



-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Rudy Bleeker
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

>From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:

- Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
> Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
> -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so
> often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason
> now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you
> can connect to secure servers.".
>
> I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started
> after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that
> computer but nothing has changed.
> I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it
> on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
>
> Anyone able to explain this?
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
> Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
> Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional
> dedicated server update and is not required unless you are running any
> of the Invasion maps and would like to support this new feature.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



--
Idleness is not doing nothing. Idleness is being free to do anything.
  - Floyd Dell

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[ics]

You may have used it for one client but the truth is, this guy earlier 
who posted used it to ten, even more clients. Also i think someone 
already has a script that can be ran in textmode that autoaccepts the 
items that drop. So no more manual accept and idling can continue. I'm 
not 100% sure about this, i just heard about it few months back.


Play the game, run the servers, don't mix clients and players. Thanks.

-ics

HD kirjoitti:


I used it to log ONE client in so I could seed with it and hear what 
was going on in the server. Additionally it was nice to see on my 
screen at home what was going on thru the console too vs remote 
desktop into the server. I can’t speak for everyone else but even 
still a REAL CLIENT is a real client…not Fake player counts. 
Regardless of how many you log in if they are REAL clients which they 
were then I don’t see the issue with that at all. That is much 
different then coding in fake clients showing up or fake numbers for 
server population.


Either way this is just stupid and pointless to argue since we won’t 
hear a damn word from Valve on this or anything else when it comes to 
Servers with this game. I’m kinda sick of it and damn near ready to 
say the hell with it all and their games.


*From:*hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Kyle Sanderson

*Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:04 AM
*To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

Just so we're clear, you guys were only using this to fake player 
counts on your servers? Where's the negative impact here? This sounds 
like a much needed change to prevent scumbaggery.


Kyle.

On 13 Oct 2015 6:14 a.m., "N-Gon" <ngongamedes...@gmail.com 
<mailto:ngongamedes...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Back when I ran servers I used to use Sandboxie and a bunch of 
accounts in textmode to help populate my servers.


It's a struggle when you don't have a well known community, I feel bad 
for the folks who've just been hurt by this change.


On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net 
<mailto:ad...@gamerscrib.net>> wrote:


Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it 
for a

client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of resources.
Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides 
launching

the game in full and alt tabbing now.


-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
<mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
<mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>] On Behalf Of Rudy Bleeker

Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:

- Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net 
<mailto:ad...@gamerscrib.net>> wrote:

> Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
> -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so
> often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason
> now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you
> can connect to secure servers.".
>
> I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started
> after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that
> computer but nothing has changed.
> I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it
> on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
>
> Anyone able to explain this?
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
<mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
<mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>] On Behalf Of Eric Smith

> Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
> To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com 
<mailto:hlds@list.valvesoftware.com>; 
hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com 
<mailto:hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com>

> Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
> Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional
> dedicated server update and is not required unless you are running any
> of the Invasion maps and would like to support this new feature.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[HD]

Regardless I used -textmode for specific reasons not to abuse any type of
system. I disagree with this change and as I said I don't expect Valve to
reply to any of these complaints as they haven't others in the past.  I
guess I'll have to launch the client regularly - alt tab it down and leave
it like that to help seed and listen to whats being said when I'm not in
there.

-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:26 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

You may have used it for one client but the truth is, this guy earlier who
posted used it to ten, even more clients. Also i think someone already has a
script that can be ran in textmode that autoaccepts the items that drop. So
no more manual accept and idling can continue. I'm not 100% sure about this,
i just heard about it few months back.

Play the game, run the servers, don't mix clients and players. Thanks.

-ics

HD kirjoitti:
>
> I used it to log ONE client in so I could seed with it and hear what 
> was going on in the server. Additionally it was nice to see on my 
> screen at home what was going on thru the console too vs remote 
> desktop into the server. I can't speak for everyone else but even 
> still a REAL CLIENT is a real client.not Fake player counts.
> Regardless of how many you log in if they are REAL clients which they 
> were then I don't see the issue with that at all. That is much 
> different then coding in fake clients showing up or fake numbers for 
> server population.
>
> Either way this is just stupid and pointless to argue since we won't 
> hear a damn word from Valve on this or anything else when it comes to 
> Servers with this game. I'm kinda sick of it and damn near ready to 
> say the hell with it all and their games.
>
> *From:*hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Kyle 
> Sanderson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:04 AM
> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> Just so we're clear, you guys were only using this to fake player 
> counts on your servers? Where's the negative impact here? This sounds 
> like a much needed change to prevent scumbaggery.
>
> Kyle.
>
> On 13 Oct 2015 6:14 a.m., "N-Gon" <ngongamedes...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:ngongamedes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Back when I ran servers I used to use Sandboxie and a bunch of 
> accounts in textmode to help populate my servers.
>
> It's a struggle when you don't have a well known community, I feel bad 
> for the folks who've just been hurt by this change.
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net 
> <mailto:ad...@gamerscrib.net>> wrote:
>
> Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it 
> for a client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of 
> resources.
> Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides 
> launching the game in full and alt tabbing now.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> <mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> <mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>] On Behalf Of Rudy 
> Bleeker
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:
>
> - Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:50 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net 
> <mailto:ad...@gamerscrib.net>> wrote:
> > Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers 
> > using -textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way 
> > every so often to "listen" in the server while reading chat but for 
> > some reason now I get the "You are in insecure mode. You must 
> > restart before you can connect to secure servers.".
> >
> > I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started 
> > after last nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that 
> > computer but nothing has changed.
> > I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it 
> > on another computer and it did the exact same thing.
> >
> > Anyone able to explain this?
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> <mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>
> > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.v

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Cody Mathisen]

By the sounds of it the abuse that has come up heavily outweigh any
benefits of -textmode.

I'm not sure exactly what information you are 'seeding' but I'm sure there
are multiple addons/plugins/tools to help you accomplish something similar.
If it is just chat, you could simply download HLSW <http://www.hlsw.org/>
and tune in with RCON. If you wanted to log chat to a database or do
something more extensive, this could be accomplished using sourcemod
plugins. I'm sure you could find some kind of plugin out there to help
accomplish whatever you are looking for. There are thousands of plugins out
there...

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:00 PM HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

> Regardless I used -textmode for specific reasons not to abuse any type of
> system. I disagree with this change and as I said I don't expect Valve to
> reply to any of these complaints as they haven't others in the past.  I
> guess I'll have to launch the client regularly - alt tab it down and leave
> it like that to help seed and listen to whats being said when I'm not in
> there.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:26 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> You may have used it for one client but the truth is, this guy earlier who
> posted used it to ten, even more clients. Also i think someone already has
> a
> script that can be ran in textmode that autoaccepts the items that drop. So
> no more manual accept and idling can continue. I'm not 100% sure about
> this,
> i just heard about it few months back.
>
> Play the game, run the servers, don't mix clients and players. Thanks.
>
> -ics
>
> HD kirjoitti:
> >
> > I used it to log ONE client in so I could seed with it and hear what
> > was going on in the server. Additionally it was nice to see on my
> > screen at home what was going on thru the console too vs remote
> > desktop into the server. I can't speak for everyone else but even
> > still a REAL CLIENT is a real client.not Fake player counts.
> > Regardless of how many you log in if they are REAL clients which they
> > were then I don't see the issue with that at all. That is much
> > different then coding in fake clients showing up or fake numbers for
> > server population.
> >
> > Either way this is just stupid and pointless to argue since we won't
> > hear a damn word from Valve on this or anything else when it comes to
> > Servers with this game. I'm kinda sick of it and damn near ready to
> > say the hell with it all and their games.
> >
> > *From:*hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Kyle
> > Sanderson
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:04 AM
> > *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> > *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
> >
> > Just so we're clear, you guys were only using this to fake player
> > counts on your servers? Where's the negative impact here? This sounds
> > like a much needed change to prevent scumbaggery.
> >
> > Kyle.
> >
> > On 13 Oct 2015 6:14 a.m., "N-Gon" <ngongamedes...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:ngongamedes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Back when I ran servers I used to use Sandboxie and a bunch of
> > accounts in textmode to help populate my servers.
> >
> > It's a struggle when you don't have a well known community, I feel bad
> > for the folks who've just been hurt by this change.
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:45 AM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net
> > <mailto:ad...@gamerscrib.net>> wrote:
> >
> > Yea I saw it last night... this is beyond a wasteful change. I use it
> > for a client so I can listen in a server without using a bunch of
> > resources.
> > Why was this change made and what alternative do you have besides
> > launching the game in full and alt tabbing now.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > <mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>
> > [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> > <mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>] On Behalf Of Rudy
> > Bleeker
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 3:02 AM
> > To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> > Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
> >
> > From the client patch notes from October 12, 2015:
> >
> > - Running in textmode now places the client in insecure mode
&

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[E. Olsen]

gt;> but yes I already use it for chat logging. I log a client into a server –
>>> it shows my client in and along with other players some of which are also
>>> AFK to be in the server which doesn’t hurt anything and helps “seeding” it
>>> to grow… I mainly use it for LISTENING to what is going on in the server
>>> since logging audio takes way too much bandwidth, need to hear things in
>>> real time as they are happening and so on. There is no other simple
>>> alternative than launching the game in –textmode and just listening. What I
>>> can’t figure out here is why this is so hard to comprehend vs everyone
>>> trying to figure out bad things from it when there really aren’t any that
>>> I’ve ever seen or used.
>>>
>>> If you know of a plugin that does the exact same thing as what I used
>>> –textmode for, listening LIVE in real time to what is going on with ALL
>>> sounds in the game while also allowing me to log my client into the game to
>>> help seed my server then by all means I’m ready to listen/read all about it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As I figured though not a single response from valve once again on this
>>> topic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
>>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Cody Mathisen
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:10 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>>> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> By the sounds of it the abuse that has come up heavily outweigh any
>>> benefits of -textmode.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not sure exactly what information you are 'seeding' but I'm sure
>>> there are multiple addons/plugins/tools to help you accomplish something
>>> similar. If it is just chat, you could simply download HLSW
>>> <http://www.hlsw.org/> and tune in with RCON. If you wanted to log chat
>>> to a database or do something more extensive, this could be accomplished
>>> using sourcemod plugins. I'm sure you could find some kind of plugin out
>>> there to help accomplish whatever you are looking for. There are thousands
>>> of plugins out there...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:00 PM HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Regardless I used -textmode for specific reasons not to abuse any type of
>>> system. I disagree with this change and as I said I don't expect Valve to
>>> reply to any of these complaints as they haven't others in the past.  I
>>> guess I'll have to launch the client regularly - alt tab it down and
>>> leave
>>> it like that to help seed and listen to whats being said when I'm not in
>>> there.
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
>>> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:26 AM
>>> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>>>
>>> You may have used it for one client but the truth is, this guy earlier
>>> who
>>> posted used it to ten, even more clients. Also i think someone already
>>> has a
>>> script that can be ran in textmode that autoaccepts the items that drop.
>>> So
>>> no more manual accept and idling can continue. I'm not 100% sure about
>>> this,
>>> i just heard about it few months back.
>>>
>>> Play the game, run the servers, don't mix clients and players. Thanks.
>>>
>>> -ics
>>>
>>> HD kirjoitti:
>>> >
>>> > I used it to log ONE client in so I could seed with it and hear what
>>> > was going on in the server. Additionally it was nice to see on my
>>> > screen at home what was going on thru the console too vs remote
>>> > desktop into the server. I can't speak for everyone else but even
>>> > still a REAL CLIENT is a real client.not Fake player counts.
>>> > Regardless of how many you log in if they are REAL clients which they
>>> > were then I don't see the issue with that at all. That is much
>>> > different then coding in fake clients showing up or fake numbers for
>>> > server population.
>>> >
>>> > Either way this is just stupid and pointless to argue since we won't
>>> > h

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Cats From Above]

You’re right in one respect: This change won’t be reverted, that much is
almost as certain as death and taxes. However, on a point of ethics, I feel
the need to point out that running a text-client with the intended purpose
of deceiving players into believing that there is an active population on a
server is a violation of Valve’s Policy of Truth. The fact is, you are
deliberately misleading players into believing that your server is or is
likely to be more populated than what it actually is. The apparatus in
which that deception occurs is irrelevant - rather, it is the intent that
counts. It could be a text client, a fake client or hell, in my opinion
even a real client whose sole purpose is to be AFK on a server indefinitely
– And it would still be a violation of the apparent essence of the Policy
of Truth.


Why? Because the primary reason you’re doing it is, again, to make
ordinary, reasonable players believe that there is a player active on your
server when there is not. A real client it may be…but a real player,* it is
not*. That you would attempt to equivocate the two as if they were one and
the same is a true example of the types of behaviour that Valve has come to
expect from unscrupulous server operators. If you want to seed your server
and grow your community, get a bunch of friends together and start playing
- that's how good communities grew.


Having said that, I'd like to thank Valve for this change as I can see the
intended good behind it for players and (decent) server operators alike.


PS: Obsessing about the conversations of players to the point that you
listen into their conversations 24/7 is behaviour chillingly similar to
that of a stalker or voyeur...and almost certainly unhealthy.


On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 5:14 AM, HD  wrote:

> I run many servers, I refer to one cause well I’m only logging my client
> into one not all of them. I do go into my server(S) with one of my clients
> just to play also but sometimes I’d just rather use Computer A vs Computer
> B to log another client in –textmode (which again doesn’t or hasn’t never
> hurt anything) just to listen to the sounds and mic usage while looking at
> the console commands vs remote desktop into the server to view it. Plus as
> I said it adds a client/player into the count which helps seed…. One is a
> start much better than an empty server to start with.
>
> I’m not loading up a bunch of “Seeders” they are not fake they are REAL
> CLIENTS – I own the client – I’ve purchased many things with it – it is
> legit. This has nothing to do with fake clients.
>
> Thing is there are no negatives to this nothing viable that I can find
> anyway nothing that I’ve ever used them more. I may be a lone one on this
> list that objects to it but hey its something I enjoyed using which was
> perfectly legit. I do spend a ton of time on my servers – so don’t sit
> there and lecture me on what you don’t know or have any idea of.
>
>
>
> I don’t even know why I’m replying lol it’s pointless as I said not even
> Valve is replying to a reason for this change.
>
> Consider this my last reply on the issue since its clear it won’t be
> changed back.
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Bottiger]

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:36 AM, N-Gon  wrote:

> Welp, you guys heard it here first.
> Let's call it a day and let ad-based servers like skial have complete
> reign of the place.
>

Excuse me?

We have *never* used text mode clients to seed our servers and couldn't
care less if it patched.

Please don't use us as an example for anything bad just because we have the
most players left, which is hardly worth consideration given that it is
less than 3% of tf2 population.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:08 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:

> Think about it - communities used to grow one or two servers at a time as
> their membership grew. Now, the vast majority of "communities" (and I use
> that word extremely loosely) only offer a handful of stock maps.


Now I'm not saying that you are referring to us, but some of you here are
probably thinking it.

This is exactly how we grew. We added 1 server at a time mostly added due
to player request, and if they die out we remove them. Every single server
we have fills up every day. We do not rent servers so cheap that it doesn't
matter if they are empty 90% of the time. We had custom gamemodes even
before quickplay existed. All of these in stark contrast to the usual
posterboys of ad-farms and pay2win-farms that were popular scapegoats
before us before they bled out from the quickplay change.

It is sad that after the quickplay change killed off most of the real
exploiters, disgruntled server owners just started to assume we are the
same.

If you want to blame someone for the declining state of your server, it
should probably be the people who defaulted quickplay to official servers,
not us.
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[N-Gon]

Someone's upset.
Who's we? I hope you're not trying to imply that no one on the HLDS has
done that because I can say with 100% confidence that many of you have
after seeing it in action. Where do you think folks get the idea from? Hah.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Bottiger  wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:36 AM, N-Gon  wrote:
>
>> Welp, you guys heard it here first.
>> Let's call it a day and let ad-based servers like skial have complete
>> reign of the place.
>>
>
> Excuse me?
>
> We have *never* used text mode clients to seed our servers and couldn't
> care less if it patched.
>
> Please don't use us as an example for anything bad just because we have
> the most players left, which is hardly worth consideration given that it is
> less than 3% of tf2 population.
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:08 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>
>> Think about it - communities used to grow one or two servers at a time as
>> their membership grew. Now, the vast majority of "communities" (and I use
>> that word extremely loosely) only offer a handful of stock maps.
>
>
> Now I'm not saying that you are referring to us, but some of you here are
> probably thinking it.
>
> This is exactly how we grew. We added 1 server at a time mostly added due
> to player request, and if they die out we remove them. Every single server
> we have fills up every day. We do not rent servers so cheap that it doesn't
> matter if they are empty 90% of the time. We had custom gamemodes even
> before quickplay existed. All of these in stark contrast to the usual
> posterboys of ad-farms and pay2win-farms that were popular scapegoats
> before us before they bled out from the quickplay change.
>
> It is sad that after the quickplay change killed off most of the real
> exploiters, disgruntled server owners just started to assume we are the
> same.
>
> If you want to blame someone for the declining state of your server, it
> should probably be the people who defaulted quickplay to official servers,
> not us.
>
>
> ___
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> please visit:
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>
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Cats From Above]

I never thought I'd see the day where E. Olsen, someone who I've long
considered to be a well informed contributor to discussions like these, the
day where he would stand up and essentially say, "Using a text-client to
fake a player on a server? No problem! Good server operators *need *some
kind of help!" - What irrational, ill-informed tripe...and if he wasn't
referring to the use of the text-client in a seeding context, then I fail
to see how the comment regarding server seeding was relevant to the current
topic matter.

If you want to start a community, get your friends together and start
playing on your own server regularly. That's how good communities are
created, none of this "use a text-client to attract unsuspecting flies"
nonsense.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 5:38 AM, E. Olsen  wrote:

> Server-seeding has been around as long as community-hosted servers has
> (all the way back to the original Counter Strike and even Battlefield 2).
> Like it or not, players rarely if ever join empty servers, and with the
> deck stacked so staggeringly high in Valve's favor in terms of player
> traffic, server operators who obey the rules need some kind of help to get
> those servers going.
>
> Let's face it - if ALL servers were treated fairly and equally again, this
> wouldn't even be an issue. When the road to your organization is bypassed
> by an expressway, and the builders of that expressway have literally hidden
> the off ramp for people to get to you, then I don't care how good you are
> or how popular you were, your organization is going to suffer immensely.
>
> I think the real issue here is how difficult is has become to start and/or
> grow a community "organically".
>
> Regardless of how you feel about ad-based servers (full disclosure, I'm
> opposed to them), there is no doubt that the harder Valve makes it for
> communities trying to grow organically, the more they end up strangling off
> the very diversity they claim to want to encourage.
>
> Think about it - communities used to grow one or two servers at a time as
> their membership grew. Now, the vast majority of "communities" (and I use
> that word extremely loosely) only offer a handful of stock maps. However,
> as opposed to building a server fleet that grows one server at a time with
> the community, they take the top 5-6 maps, plaster ads all over them, and
> throw up as many servers as they possibly can. That's not building a
> community to serve the players, that's building an ad-farm to maximize
> ad-impressions.
>
> ...and therein lies the problem. The current approach has marginalized the
> communities that want to offer diversity beyond a handful of stock maps,
> and encouraged massive fleets of "me too" stock servers with little to no
> interest in adding value to the experience, but with an eye towards
> maximizing player connections.
>
> The lack of a text-mode doesn't really trouble me.  It's the absolute and
> seemingly insurmountable sense of apathy from the TF2 team towards
> community servers that does.
>
> If these guys would just talk to us again and tell us what community
> servers need to do as a whole to get some equitable treatment again, it
> would be better for everyone and anyone that cares about TF2.
>
> All I really want is for players to be better informed about all the
> diversity community servers bring to the game.
>
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[E. Olsen]

I'm not sure how your got that from what I posted - but that's neither here
nor there.

At any rate, it's naive to think simply "playing on your server regularly"
will help grow a community and/or a server in the current environment. I've
been hosting TF2 since 2008, and I've never seen an environment more
hostile towards launching and growing new TF2 servers as it is today. In
fact, I doubt I would even try it in the current environment.

I still have half a dozen servers that fill up everyday, but about 10 hours
later in the day than they used to just a couple of years ago. Even worse -
the servers that used to hold a mix of stock and custom maps (CTF, CP,
etc.) have all fallen by the wayside. From 5 custom map servers that spent
5+ years full to the rafters down to 1with the drop in player traffic
directly attributable to the mis-guided changes in quickplay, and the
re-design of the UI that emphasizes its use.

I'd like to think that after hosting over 2 million TF2 players, I know a
bit about hosting servers now, and I can tell you with utmost confidence
that it's an absolute fallacy to suggest things like "if your servers are
good, and you and your friends play on them everyday, they'll fill up and
grow". That's just NOT the case at the current time. When the very user
interface has been designed to drive the overwhelming vast majority of new
players (probably somewhere around 80% now) away from community servers.

Regardless, the point I was trying to make (apparently poorly) was that
server operators need *something *from Valve to help them fill their
servers. It's not an unreasonable or "entitled" thing to ask for (keeping
in mind that it is free infrastructure and support for a game) for a group
of people who are (for the most part) adding value to the game by
increasing both diversity and long-term player retention.

Heck - if you look back through the archives of this very mailing list
(which is pretty interesting reading) you'll see that when quickplay was
first launched, it was "sold" to concerned server operators as a good thing
that would help us fill our servers everyday. When server operators shared
their concerns about it, Valve was very upbeat about how great it was going
to be for all of us.

The sad thing is, the very issues that server operators expressed the
biggest concerns about (quickplay driving players away from custom
maps/game modes/servers, increasing the lack of diversity, marginalizing
and killing off all but the top handful of popular maps)the same
concerns Valve said were overblown and weren't going to happendid.



On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Cats From Above 
wrote:

> I never thought I'd see the day where E. Olsen, someone who I've long
> considered to be a well informed contributor to discussions like these, the
> day where he would stand up and essentially say, "Using a text-client to
> fake a player on a server? No problem! Good server operators *need *some
> kind of help!" - What irrational, ill-informed tripe...and if he wasn't
> referring to the use of the text-client in a seeding context, then I fail
> to see how the comment regarding server seeding was relevant to the current
> topic matter.
>
> If you want to start a community, get your friends together and start
> playing on your own server regularly. That's how good communities are
> created, none of this "use a text-client to attract unsuspecting flies"
> nonsense.
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 5:38 AM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>
>> Server-seeding has been around as long as community-hosted servers has
>> (all the way back to the original Counter Strike and even Battlefield 2).
>> Like it or not, players rarely if ever join empty servers, and with the
>> deck stacked so staggeringly high in Valve's favor in terms of player
>> traffic, server operators who obey the rules need some kind of help to get
>> those servers going.
>>
>> Let's face it - if ALL servers were treated fairly and equally again,
>> this wouldn't even be an issue. When the road to your organization is
>> bypassed by an expressway, and the builders of that expressway have
>> literally hidden the off ramp for people to get to you, then I don't care
>> how good you are or how popular you were, your organization is going to
>> suffer immensely.
>>
>> I think the real issue here is how difficult is has become to start
>> and/or grow a community "organically".
>>
>> Regardless of how you feel about ad-based servers (full disclosure, I'm
>> opposed to them), there is no doubt that the harder Valve makes it for
>> communities trying to grow organically, the more they end up strangling off
>> the very diversity they claim to want to encourage.
>>
>> Think about it - communities used to grow one or two servers at a time as
>> their membership grew. Now, the vast majority of "communities" (and I use
>> that word extremely loosely) only offer a handful of stock maps. However,
>> as opposed to 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[N-Gon]

Welp, you guys heard it here first.
Let's call it a day and let ad-based servers like skial have complete reign
of the place.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Michael Loveless <mloveless1...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> What are you trying to hear exactly? You have no interest in being in your
> own server to populate but wanna listen to what players are saying? Once a
> server achieves enough players to even warrant listening in on
> conversations, what is the purpose of these extra clients to seed the
> server? You've constantly repeated the word server so it's safe to assume
> you're only running one, as it doesn't seem likely you would want to even
> try deciphering the jibberish you would hear while listening in on multiple
> servers at once.
>
> I think this is one of problems Valve is looking to resolve. You load the
> server up with a bunch of "seeder" clients, players join your server
> thinking it's populated, players waste time while learning no one is
> actually there, now there is another player (potentially new to the game
> with all these recent updates) who thinks all community servers are shit
> then end up on Valve's servers anyway. Sure it's really hard to organically
> grow a community especially in a game where there is already server
> over-saturation as well as long-term established communities but it's clear
> as day that the negatives outweigh the positives when it comes to textmode
> and you're here arguing an almost irrelevant point about presumably
> listening to player voice chat while populating the server with afk
> clients. If you spent more time in your servers interacting with people
> growing your community you would hear all necessary voice chat, see all
> necessary console spew, and not need to habitually trick people.
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:53 PM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
>
>> By the sounds o fit the benefits are just benefits and nothing to do with
>> any type of abuse. You still own a REAL client if you log it in either
>> regular graphical or textmode.
>>
>> HLSW is unsupported and needs to be updated so bad it isn’t even funny
>> but yes I already use it for chat logging. I log a client into a server –
>> it shows my client in and along with other players some of which are also
>> AFK to be in the server which doesn’t hurt anything and helps “seeding” it
>> to grow… I mainly use it for LISTENING to what is going on in the server
>> since logging audio takes way too much bandwidth, need to hear things in
>> real time as they are happening and so on. There is no other simple
>> alternative than launching the game in –textmode and just listening. What I
>> can’t figure out here is why this is so hard to comprehend vs everyone
>> trying to figure out bad things from it when there really aren’t any that
>> I’ve ever seen or used.
>>
>> If you know of a plugin that does the exact same thing as what I used
>> –textmode for, listening LIVE in real time to what is going on with ALL
>> sounds in the game while also allowing me to log my client into the game to
>> help seed my server then by all means I’m ready to listen/read all about it.
>>
>>
>>
>> As I figured though not a single response from valve once again on this
>> topic.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
>> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Cody Mathisen
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:10 PM
>>
>> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
>> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>>
>>
>>
>> By the sounds of it the abuse that has come up heavily outweigh any
>> benefits of -textmode.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure exactly what information you are 'seeding' but I'm sure
>> there are multiple addons/plugins/tools to help you accomplish something
>> similar. If it is just chat, you could simply download HLSW
>> <http://www.hlsw.org/> and tune in with RCON. If you wanted to log chat
>> to a database or do something more extensive, this could be accomplished
>> using sourcemod plugins. I'm sure you could find some kind of plugin out
>> there to help accomplish whatever you are looking for. There are thousands
>> of plugins out there...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:00 PM HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
>>
>> Regardless I used -textmode for specific reasons not to abuse any type of
>> system. I disagree with this change and as I said I don't expect Valve to
>> reply to any of these complaints as they haven't others in the past.  I
>> guess I'll have 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[HD]

By the sounds o fit the benefits are just benefits and nothing to do with any 
type of abuse. You still own a REAL client if you log it in either regular 
graphical or textmode.

HLSW is unsupported and needs to be updated so bad it isn’t even funny but yes 
I already use it for chat logging. I log a client into a server – it shows my 
client in and along with other players some of which are also AFK to be in the 
server which doesn’t hurt anything and helps “seeding” it to grow… I mainly use 
it for LISTENING to what is going on in the server since logging audio takes 
way too much bandwidth, need to hear things in real time as they are happening 
and so on. There is no other simple alternative than launching the game in 
–textmode and just listening. What I can’t figure out here is why this is so 
hard to comprehend vs everyone trying to figure out bad things from it when 
there really aren’t any that I’ve ever seen or used.

If you know of a plugin that does the exact same thing as what I used –textmode 
for, listening LIVE in real time to what is going on with ALL sounds in the 
game while also allowing me to log my client into the game to help seed my 
server then by all means I’m ready to listen/read all about it.

 

As I figured though not a single response from valve once again on this topic.

 

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Cody Mathisen
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:10 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

By the sounds of it the abuse that has come up heavily outweigh any benefits of 
-textmode.

 

I'm not sure exactly what information you are 'seeding' but I'm sure there are 
multiple addons/plugins/tools to help you accomplish something similar. If it 
is just chat, you could simply download HLSW <http://www.hlsw.org/>  and tune 
in with RCON. If you wanted to log chat to a database or do something more 
extensive, this could be accomplished using sourcemod plugins. I'm sure you 
could find some kind of plugin out there to help accomplish whatever you are 
looking for. There are thousands of plugins out there...

 

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:00 PM HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

Regardless I used -textmode for specific reasons not to abuse any type of
system. I disagree with this change and as I said I don't expect Valve to
reply to any of these complaints as they haven't others in the past.  I
guess I'll have to launch the client regularly - alt tab it down and leave
it like that to help seed and listen to whats being said when I'm not in
there.

-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:26 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

You may have used it for one client but the truth is, this guy earlier who
posted used it to ten, even more clients. Also i think someone already has a
script that can be ran in textmode that autoaccepts the items that drop. So
no more manual accept and idling can continue. I'm not 100% sure about this,
i just heard about it few months back.

Play the game, run the servers, don't mix clients and players. Thanks.

-ics

HD kirjoitti:
>
> I used it to log ONE client in so I could seed with it and hear what
> was going on in the server. Additionally it was nice to see on my
> screen at home what was going on thru the console too vs remote
> desktop into the server. I can't speak for everyone else but even
> still a REAL CLIENT is a real client.not Fake player counts.
> Regardless of how many you log in if they are REAL clients which they
> were then I don't see the issue with that at all. That is much
> different then coding in fake clients showing up or fake numbers for
> server population.
>
> Either way this is just stupid and pointless to argue since we won't
> hear a damn word from Valve on this or anything else when it comes to
> Servers with this game. I'm kinda sick of it and damn near ready to
> say the hell with it all and their games.
>
> *From:*hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Kyle
> Sanderson
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:04 AM
> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> Just so we're clear, you guys were only using this to fake player
> counts on your servers? Where's the negative impact here? This sounds
> like a much needed change to prevent scumbaggery.
>
> Kyle.
>
> On 13 Oct 2015 6:14 a.m., "N-Gon" <ngongamedes...@gmail.com
> <mailto:ngongamedes...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Back when I ran servers I used to use Sandboxie and a bunch of
> accounts in

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Michael Loveless]

What are you trying to hear exactly? You have no interest in being in your
own server to populate but wanna listen to what players are saying? Once a
server achieves enough players to even warrant listening in on
conversations, what is the purpose of these extra clients to seed the
server? You've constantly repeated the word server so it's safe to assume
you're only running one, as it doesn't seem likely you would want to even
try deciphering the jibberish you would hear while listening in on multiple
servers at once.

I think this is one of problems Valve is looking to resolve. You load the
server up with a bunch of "seeder" clients, players join your server
thinking it's populated, players waste time while learning no one is
actually there, now there is another player (potentially new to the game
with all these recent updates) who thinks all community servers are shit
then end up on Valve's servers anyway. Sure it's really hard to organically
grow a community especially in a game where there is already server
over-saturation as well as long-term established communities but it's clear
as day that the negatives outweigh the positives when it comes to textmode
and you're here arguing an almost irrelevant point about presumably
listening to player voice chat while populating the server with afk
clients. If you spent more time in your servers interacting with people
growing your community you would hear all necessary voice chat, see all
necessary console spew, and not need to habitually trick people.

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:53 PM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

> By the sounds o fit the benefits are just benefits and nothing to do with
> any type of abuse. You still own a REAL client if you log it in either
> regular graphical or textmode.
>
> HLSW is unsupported and needs to be updated so bad it isn’t even funny but
> yes I already use it for chat logging. I log a client into a server – it
> shows my client in and along with other players some of which are also AFK
> to be in the server which doesn’t hurt anything and helps “seeding” it to
> grow… I mainly use it for LISTENING to what is going on in the server since
> logging audio takes way too much bandwidth, need to hear things in real
> time as they are happening and so on. There is no other simple alternative
> than launching the game in –textmode and just listening. What I can’t
> figure out here is why this is so hard to comprehend vs everyone trying to
> figure out bad things from it when there really aren’t any that I’ve ever
> seen or used.
>
> If you know of a plugin that does the exact same thing as what I used
> –textmode for, listening LIVE in real time to what is going on with ALL
> sounds in the game while also allowing me to log my client into the game to
> help seed my server then by all means I’m ready to listen/read all about it.
>
>
>
> As I figured though not a single response from valve once again on this
> topic.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Cody Mathisen
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:10 PM
>
> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
>
>
> By the sounds of it the abuse that has come up heavily outweigh any
> benefits of -textmode.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure exactly what information you are 'seeding' but I'm sure there
> are multiple addons/plugins/tools to help you accomplish something similar.
> If it is just chat, you could simply download HLSW <http://www.hlsw.org/>
> and tune in with RCON. If you wanted to log chat to a database or do
> something more extensive, this could be accomplished using sourcemod
> plugins. I'm sure you could find some kind of plugin out there to help
> accomplish whatever you are looking for. There are thousands of plugins out
> there...
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:00 PM HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:
>
> Regardless I used -textmode for specific reasons not to abuse any type of
> system. I disagree with this change and as I said I don't expect Valve to
> reply to any of these complaints as they haven't others in the past.  I
> guess I'll have to launch the client regularly - alt tab it down and leave
> it like that to help seed and listen to whats being said when I'm not in
> there.
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of ics
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 11:26 AM
> To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
>
> You may have used it for one client but the truth is, this guy earlier who
> posted used it to ten, even more clients. Also i 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[HD]

I run many servers, I refer to one cause well I’m only logging my client into 
one not all of them. I do go into my server(S) with one of my clients just to 
play also but sometimes I’d just rather use Computer A vs Computer B to log 
another client in –textmode (which again doesn’t or hasn’t never hurt anything) 
just to listen to the sounds and mic usage while looking at the console 
commands vs remote desktop into the server to view it. Plus as I said it adds a 
client/player into the count which helps seed…. One is a start much better than 
an empty server to start with.

I’m not loading up a bunch of “Seeders” they are not fake they are REAL CLIENTS 
– I own the client – I’ve purchased many things with it – it is legit. This has 
nothing to do with fake clients.

Thing is there are no negatives to this nothing viable that I can find anyway 
nothing that I’ve ever used them more. I may be a lone one on this list that 
objects to it but hey its something I enjoyed using which was perfectly legit. 
I do spend a ton of time on my servers – so don’t sit there and lecture me on 
what you don’t know or have any idea of. 

 

I don’t even know why I’m replying lol it’s pointless as I said not even Valve 
is replying to a reason for this change.

Consider this my last reply on the issue since its clear it won’t be changed 
back.

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Michael Loveless
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 2:31 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

What are you trying to hear exactly? You have no interest in being in your own 
server to populate but wanna listen to what players are saying? Once a server 
achieves enough players to even warrant listening in on conversations, what is 
the purpose of these extra clients to seed the server? You've constantly 
repeated the word server so it's safe to assume you're only running one, as it 
doesn't seem likely you would want to even try deciphering the jibberish you 
would hear while listening in on multiple servers at once. 

 

I think this is one of problems Valve is looking to resolve. You load the 
server up with a bunch of "seeder" clients, players join your server thinking 
it's populated, players waste time while learning no one is actually there, now 
there is another player (potentially new to the game with all these recent 
updates) who thinks all community servers are shit then end up on Valve's 
servers anyway. Sure it's really hard to organically grow a community 
especially in a game where there is already server over-saturation as well as 
long-term established communities but it's clear as day that the negatives 
outweigh the positives when it comes to textmode and you're here arguing an 
almost irrelevant point about presumably listening to player voice chat while 
populating the server with afk clients. If you spent more time in your servers 
interacting with people growing your community you would hear all necessary 
voice chat, see all necessary console spew, and not need to habitually trick 
people. 

 

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:53 PM, HD <ad...@gamerscrib.net> wrote:

By the sounds o fit the benefits are just benefits and nothing to do with any 
type of abuse. You still own a REAL client if you log it in either regular 
graphical or textmode.

HLSW is unsupported and needs to be updated so bad it isn’t even funny but yes 
I already use it for chat logging. I log a client into a server – it shows my 
client in and along with other players some of which are also AFK to be in the 
server which doesn’t hurt anything and helps “seeding” it to grow… I mainly use 
it for LISTENING to what is going on in the server since logging audio takes 
way too much bandwidth, need to hear things in real time as they are happening 
and so on. There is no other simple alternative than launching the game in 
–textmode and just listening. What I can’t figure out here is why this is so 
hard to comprehend vs everyone trying to figure out bad things from it when 
there really aren’t any that I’ve ever seen or used.

If you know of a plugin that does the exact same thing as what I used –textmode 
for, listening LIVE in real time to what is going on with ALL sounds in the 
game while also allowing me to log my client into the game to help seed my 
server then by all means I’m ready to listen/read all about it.

 

As I figured though not a single response from valve once again on this topic.

 

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Cody Mathisen
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 1:10 PM


To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

By the sounds of it the abuse that has come up heavily outweigh any benefits of 
-textmode.

 

I'm not sure exactly what information you are 'seedi

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[HD]

Anyone else having issues now using a client into their servers using
-textmode for launch options? I log in an account this way every so often to
"listen" in the server while reading chat but for some reason now I get the
"You are in insecure mode. You must restart before you can connect to secure
servers.".

I've not changed nothing - not a single thing and it just started after last
nights update came out. I've reinstalled TF2 on that computer but nothing
has changed. 
I'm convinced something got messed up from this update as I tried it on
another computer and it did the exact same thing.

Anyone able to explain this?


-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
Sent: Friday, October 09, 2015 5:52 PM
To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion
Community Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional dedicated
server update and is not required unless you are running any of the Invasion
maps and would like to support this new feature.

Thanks.

-Eric


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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Eric Smith]

We've released an optional update for TF2 that updates the Invasion Community 
Update Coin to also count assists. This is an optional dedicated server update 
and is not required unless you are running any of the Invasion maps and would 
like to support this new feature.

Thanks.

-Eric


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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Eric Smith]

We've released an optional update for TF2 that fixes a dedicated server crash 
on the Invasion map Watergate. You do not need the update unless your server is 
having this problem. 

-Eric


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Kevin C]

Any update on this?

On 7/4/2015 5:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

- Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers not 
being listed in the server browser while we look into this further

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Ross Bemrose]

Apparently the ball can still be taken into the spawns rooms.  Not sure 
if this is a map problem with pass_warehouse or a gameplay problem with 
the game mode.


On 8/19/2015 12:17 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

We've released one last update tonight for TF2. The update is optional. It 
fixes a sound problem when carrying the Jack in the new PASS Time game mode. 
You only need to sync and get the latest version if you're running a PASS Time 
server.

Thanks.

-Eric


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Drone Marviraptor]

You can take the ball into spawn by teleporting to spawn with the Eureka
Effect and receive the ball during the taunt animation. After that, it's
impossible to get the ball out of spawn (invisible wall in door) unless you
use the Eureka again.

On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 4:01 PM, Ross Bemrose rbemr...@gmail.com wrote:

 Apparently the ball can still be taken into the spawns rooms.  Not sure if
 this is a map problem with pass_warehouse or a gameplay problem with the
 game mode.


 On 8/19/2015 12:17 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

 We've released one last update tonight for TF2. The update is optional.
 It fixes a sound problem when carrying the Jack in the new PASS Time game
 mode. You only need to sync and get the latest version if you're running a
 PASS Time server.

 Thanks.

 -Eric


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[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Eric Smith]

We've released one last update tonight for TF2. The update is optional. It 
fixes a sound problem when carrying the Jack in the new PASS Time game mode. 
You only need to sync and get the latest version if you're running a PASS Time 
server. 

Thanks.

-Eric


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Tim Anderson]

It has been over 1 and a half years since community servers were banned.
The community population has already become a shadow of what it used to be
and is no longer the majority of players. If a shutdown was to be effective
it should have been done right away after the change. But many people here
foolishly thought it wouldn't affect their community because they had a
good community and everyone else's community was bad.

I am not sure if you will accomplish much by shutting down servers now. The
person at Valve who hates community servers will just see a minority of
disgruntled players and laugh as the official ones become more populated.
But I guess it might not matter if your community dies in 3 or 6 months for
a chance to have something happen. I wish you luck in organizing this.

My community has already complained to Valve long before that and they did
not do anything.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Ash . astrida...@googlemail.com wrote:

 I'll be honest, after hearing these same talking points many times over I
 have only one more thing to say.

 Valve aren't gonna listen until players make waves. That isn't going to
 happen by us complaining. There's only one sure-fire way to get this to
 happen.

 Make a fuss in our own communities about it.

 Ask our own community members who know how much time we put in to running
 servers to support our cause. Ask them to join the FQP group. At least that
 way we can co-ordinate our efforts as admins. I know a number of you on
 this mailing list are already members.

 Failing that, I'm being brutal by saying this, shut down our servers. Even
 if only temporarily. When people in our communities ask why, tell them and
 ask them to personally email Valve and post on the TF2 forums on Steam.
 That will get attention.

 The sort of volume of attention that would generate would at least
 hopefully get a response from Valve.

 How many members do all of our communities actively hold?

 On 4 August 2015 at 22:44, Tim Anderson twjander...@gmail.com wrote:

 It amazes me that there are people like you that think like that. How bad
 can Valve fanboys get?

 How are we supposed to police other people's servers? I have personally
 made dozens of reports and Valve has done nothing to them for months before
 I stopped bothered to check. What else are we supposed to do?

 It is Valve's job to keep the server list clean. And they did it the lazy
 way by virtually banning community servers. Now they keep killing community
 servers by only introducing official server only content.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Lyrai lyr...@gmail.com wrote:

 That thought process is why we are where we are now. Valve doesn't trust
 community servers to police the community beyond their own nose. They tried
 to trust us for years and nothing happened. Terrible servers and shitty
 communities ran rampant, and it was the duty of the community to try and
 stop them, especially if the community wants to turn around and screech
 like a howler monkey that Valve OWES you something because we're the
 LIFEBLOOD and we're the reason they exist yadda yadda.

 Valve put the game in our hands, and no one did a damn thing about the
 health of the game on the whole until it affected them, personally. Only
 then did the persecution complex kick into high gear, and we busted out the
 crack theories that Valve has specific anti community people who secretly
 move against you instead of, you know, just fucking striking you from the
 server list like an actual Valve employee would do. Any one server owner is
 not important enough to even entertain the paranoia theories abound here.

 There is one group responsible for the state of the tf2 community, and
 its the tf2 community.
 On Aug 4, 2015 1:32 PM, Tim Anderson twjander...@gmail.com wrote:

 We are not responsible for other people's actions. Does the police jail
 an entire neighborhood because they keep finding criminals there? If you
 want me to be responsible for what other people do, then give me the
 ability to ban servers from the master list.

 The way Valve dealt with bad servers, if that is actually the problem,
 is both lazy and unfitting of a supposedly top company.

 I remember deciding between joining a battlefield or tf2 community, and
 thinking that the tf2 community would last longer because battlefield
 community servers were second tier servers much like tf2 servers are now. I
 thought to myself, Valve would never do something like that. At least EA
 didn't change such a major aspect in the middle of the game's lifetime.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses
 instead of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these
 .


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Rowedahelicon]

Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is
and that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a
whole doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many
people think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're
never wrong ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger
portion of the community raise their voice about it.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support
 towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single
 penny/cent on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these
 contracts. I also asked a good number of my friends to see what their
 opinion was and quite a number of them aren't either apparently. It's so
 disappointing to see that a company who originally developed great games
 has gone from being open and fair to being closed and apparently mostly
 interested in ways to pull more cash from their games. There are so many
 good ideas here which are being ignored, as workarounds. If things ever
 changed for the better then I, along with quite a number of other people
 I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games such as Team Fortress
 2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the community which made
 Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it beginning to lose
 support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely care about
 them still?

 On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
 wrote:

 Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few
 years ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They
 don't care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at
 Valve now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more money.

 On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up
 making poor decisions that are killing community servers.

 The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about
 something. You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting
 through quickplay? One down. But now there are people complaining about
 contracts and saying they don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you
 going to remove that too? Of course not.

 So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that
 can't even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the expense
 of everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for themselves? If
 people do not like a server for having reserved slots or ads, then they
 will not return, and the server will have fewer players.

 The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for a
 couple days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not
 the best experience for the players who don't like official servers. Please
 don't wait another year to fix this.

 If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then I
 would suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off.
 However to see any real change, the official server toggle on the quickplay
 GUI should automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still
 guarantee that new players know what a vanilla experience is.

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




 --
 *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
 Web Designer / Artist / Writer
 Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/

 ___
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 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 ___
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-- 
*Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
Web Designer / Artist / Writer
Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/
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visit:
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Peter Jerde]

 On Aug 4, 2015, at 5:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey rovanion.luc...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and 
 without the constant whining?

Yes. It’s hlds-announce.

 - Peter
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Rovanion Luckey]

Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and
without the constant whining?

2015-08-04 12:54 GMT+02:00 Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com:

 Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

 Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is
 and that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a
 whole doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many
 people think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're
 never wrong ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger
 portion of the community raise their voice about it.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support
 towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single
 penny/cent on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these
 contracts. I also asked a good number of my friends to see what their
 opinion was and quite a number of them aren't either apparently. It's so
 disappointing to see that a company who originally developed great games
 has gone from being open and fair to being closed and apparently mostly
 interested in ways to pull more cash from their games. There are so many
 good ideas here which are being ignored, as workarounds. If things ever
 changed for the better then I, along with quite a number of other people
 I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games such as Team Fortress
 2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the community which made
 Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it beginning to lose
 support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely care about
 them still?

 On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
  wrote:

 Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few
 years ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They
 don't care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at
 Valve now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more money.

 On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up
 making poor decisions that are killing community servers.

 The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about
 something. You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting
 through quickplay? One down. But now there are people complaining about
 contracts and saying they don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you
 going to remove that too? Of course not.

 So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that
 can't even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the expense
 of everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for themselves? If
 people do not like a server for having reserved slots or ads, then they
 will not return, and the server will have fewer players.

 The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for a
 couple days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not
 the best experience for the players who don't like official servers. Please
 don't wait another year to fix this.

 If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then I
 would suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off.
 However to see any real change, the official server toggle on the quickplay
 GUI should automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still
 guarantee that new players know what a vanilla experience is.

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




 --
 *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
 Web Designer / Artist / Writer
 Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 ___
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 please visit:
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 --
 *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
 Web Designer / Artist / Writer
 Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Brian Riedel]

Seriously, this. If your servers can't retain people, then that's a problem
with the strength of your community, not with the updates to quickplay.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey rovanion.luc...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and
 without the constant whining?

 2015-08-04 12:54 GMT+02:00 Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
 :

 Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

 Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is
 and that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a
 whole doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many
 people think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're
 never wrong ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger
 portion of the community raise their voice about it.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support
 towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single
 penny/cent on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these
 contracts. I also asked a good number of my friends to see what their
 opinion was and quite a number of them aren't either apparently. It's so
 disappointing to see that a company who originally developed great games
 has gone from being open and fair to being closed and apparently mostly
 interested in ways to pull more cash from their games. There are so many
 good ideas here which are being ignored, as workarounds. If things ever
 changed for the better then I, along with quite a number of other people
 I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games such as Team Fortress
 2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the community which made
 Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it beginning to lose
 support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely care about
 them still?

 On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon 
 theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com wrote:

 Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a
 few years ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground.
 They don't care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives
 direction at Valve now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more
 money.

 On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended
 up making poor decisions that are killing community servers.

 The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about
 something. You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting
 through quickplay? One down. But now there are people complaining about
 contracts and saying they don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you
 going to remove that too? Of course not.

 So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players
 that can't even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the
 expense of everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for
 themselves? If people do not like a server for having reserved slots or
 ads, then they will not return, and the server will have fewer players.

 The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for
 a couple days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not
 the best experience for the players who don't like official servers. 
 Please
 don't wait another year to fix this.

 If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then
 I would suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off.
 However to see any real change, the official server toggle on the 
 quickplay
 GUI should automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still
 guarantee that new players know what a vanilla experience is.

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




 --
 *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
 Web Designer / Artist / Writer
 Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 ___
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 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




 --
 *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
 Web Designer / Artist / Writer
 Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Rovanion Luckey]

Thank you! I thought it was only for press releases of new games.

2015-08-04 13:01 GMT+02:00 Peter Jerde peter-h...@jerde.net:


  On Aug 4, 2015, at 5:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey rovanion.luc...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and
 without the constant whining?

 Yes. It’s hlds-announce.

  - Peter
 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Andreas Willinger]

Oh look, another ignorant person. Guess you never ran any TF2 servers then.

 

Von: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Brian Riedel
Gesendet: Dienstag, 04. August 2015 13:03
An: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

Seriously, this. If your servers can't retain people, then that's a problem 
with the strength of your community, not with the updates to quickplay.

 

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey rovanion.luc...@gmail.com 
wrote:

Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and without 
the constant whining?

 

2015-08-04 12:54 GMT+02:00 Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com:

Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is and 
that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a whole 
doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many people 
think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're never wrong 
ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger portion of the 
community raise their voice about it.

 

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support 
towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single penny/cent 
on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these contracts. I also 
asked a good number of my friends to see what their opinion was and quite a 
number of them aren't either apparently. It's so disappointing to see that a 
company who originally developed great games has gone from being open and fair 
to being closed and apparently mostly interested in ways to pull more cash from 
their games. There are so many good ideas here which are being ignored, as 
workarounds. If things ever changed for the better then I, along with quite a 
number of other people I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games 
such as Team Fortress 2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the 
community which made Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it 
beginning to lose support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely 
care about them still?

 

On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com 
wrote:

Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few years 
ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They don't 
care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at Valve 
now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more money.

 

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com wrote:

The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up making 
poor decisions that are killing community servers.

 

The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about something. 
You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting through quickplay? 
One down. But now there are people complaining about contracts and saying they 
don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you going to remove that too? Of 
course not. 

 

So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that can't 
even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the expense of 
everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for themselves? If people 
do not like a server for having reserved slots or ads, then they will not 
return, and the server will have fewer players.

 

The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for a couple 
days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not the best 
experience for the players who don't like official servers. Please don't wait 
another year to fix this.

 

If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then I would 
suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off. However to 
see any real change, the official server toggle on the quickplay GUI should 
automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still guarantee that 
new players know what a vanilla experience is.

 

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




-- 

*Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
Web Designer / Artist / Writer
Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/


___
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visit:
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-- 

*Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
Web

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Andreas Willinger]

Yea, also got one.

 

Von: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Paul
Gesendet: Dienstag, 04. August 2015 15:06
An: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

Although off topic, is anyone here getting any spam or similar email from 
someone named 'Amy Happy'? I've had two emails via this mailing list from this 
person in the last few hours.

 

On 4 August 2015 at 12:41, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote:

Oh look, another ignorant person. Guess you never ran any TF2 servers then.

 

Von: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Brian Riedel
Gesendet: Dienstag, 04. August 2015 13:03
An: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

Seriously, this. If your servers can't retain people, then that's a problem 
with the strength of your community, not with the updates to quickplay.

 

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey rovanion.luc...@gmail.com 
wrote:

Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and without 
the constant whining?

 

2015-08-04 12:54 GMT+02:00 Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com:

Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is and 
that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a whole 
doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many people 
think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're never wrong 
ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger portion of the 
community raise their voice about it.

 

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support 
towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single penny/cent 
on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these contracts. I also 
asked a good number of my friends to see what their opinion was and quite a 
number of them aren't either apparently. It's so disappointing to see that a 
company who originally developed great games has gone from being open and fair 
to being closed and apparently mostly interested in ways to pull more cash from 
their games. There are so many good ideas here which are being ignored, as 
workarounds. If things ever changed for the better then I, along with quite a 
number of other people I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games 
such as Team Fortress 2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the 
community which made Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it 
beginning to lose support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely 
care about them still?

 

On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com 
wrote:

Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few years 
ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They don't 
care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at Valve 
now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more money.

 

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com wrote:

The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up making 
poor decisions that are killing community servers.

 

The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about something. 
You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting through quickplay? 
One down. But now there are people complaining about contracts and saying they 
don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you going to remove that too? Of 
course not. 

 

So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that can't 
even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the expense of 
everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for themselves? If people 
do not like a server for having reserved slots or ads, then they will not 
return, and the server will have fewer players.

 

The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for a couple 
days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not the best 
experience for the players who don't like official servers. Please don't wait 
another year to fix this.

 

If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then I would 
suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off. However to 
see any real change, the official server toggle on the quickplay GUI should 
automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still guarantee that 
new players know what a vanilla experience is.

 

___
To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
visit:
https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




-- 

*Matthew (Rowedahelicon

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Paul]

Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support
towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single
penny/cent on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these
contracts. I also asked a good number of my friends to see what their
opinion was and quite a number of them aren't either apparently. It's so
disappointing to see that a company who originally developed great games
has gone from being open and fair to being closed and apparently mostly
interested in ways to pull more cash from their games. There are so many
good ideas here which are being ignored, as workarounds. If things ever
changed for the better then I, along with quite a number of other people
I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games such as Team Fortress
2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the community which made
Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it beginning to lose
support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely care about
them still?

On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
wrote:

 Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few
 years ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They
 don't care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at
 Valve now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more money.

 On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up
 making poor decisions that are killing community servers.

 The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about
 something. You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting
 through quickplay? One down. But now there are people complaining about
 contracts and saying they don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you
 going to remove that too? Of course not.

 So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that
 can't even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the expense
 of everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for themselves? If
 people do not like a server for having reserved slots or ads, then they
 will not return, and the server will have fewer players.

 The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for a
 couple days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not
 the best experience for the players who don't like official servers. Please
 don't wait another year to fix this.

 If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then I
 would suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off.
 However to see any real change, the official server toggle on the quickplay
 GUI should automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still
 guarantee that new players know what a vanilla experience is.

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




 --
 *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
 Web Designer / Artist / Writer
 Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/

 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds


___
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visit:
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Paul]

Although off topic, is anyone here getting any spam or similar email from
someone named 'Amy Happy'? I've had two emails via this mailing list from
this person in the last few hours.

On 4 August 2015 at 12:41, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote:

 Oh look, another ignorant person. Guess you never ran any TF2 servers then.



 *Von:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Brian Riedel
 *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 04. August 2015 13:03
 *An:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
 *Betreff:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released



 Seriously, this. If your servers can't retain people, then that's a
 problem with the strength of your community, not with the updates to
 quickplay.



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey rovanion.luc...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and
 without the constant whining?



 2015-08-04 12:54 GMT+02:00 Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
 :

 Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

 Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is
 and that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a
 whole doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many
 people think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're
 never wrong ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger
 portion of the community raise their voice about it.



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support
 towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single
 penny/cent on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these
 contracts. I also asked a good number of my friends to see what their
 opinion was and quite a number of them aren't either apparently. It's so
 disappointing to see that a company who originally developed great games
 has gone from being open and fair to being closed and apparently mostly
 interested in ways to pull more cash from their games. There are so many
 good ideas here which are being ignored, as workarounds. If things ever
 changed for the better then I, along with quite a number of other people
 I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games such as Team Fortress
 2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the community which made
 Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it beginning to lose
 support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely care about
 them still?



 On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
 wrote:

 Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few
 years ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They
 don't care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at
 Valve now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more money.



 On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up
 making poor decisions that are killing community servers.



 The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about
 something. You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting
 through quickplay? One down. But now there are people complaining about
 contracts and saying they don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you
 going to remove that too? Of course not.



 So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that
 can't even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the expense
 of everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for themselves? If
 people do not like a server for having reserved slots or ads, then they
 will not return, and the server will have fewer players.



 The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for a
 couple days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not
 the best experience for the players who don't like official servers. Please
 don't wait another year to fix this.



 If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then I
 would suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off.
 However to see any real change, the official server toggle on the quickplay
 GUI should automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still
 guarantee that new players know what a vanilla experience is.



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 --

 *Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
 Web Designer / Artist / Writer
 Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[HD]

EA killed gameplay and teamwork when they added “Ranked” and “UnRanked” servers 
with Battlefield 2. The only way you were allowed to run a Ranked version was 
if you payed an insane price per month from “authorized game server providers” 
which were basically “in bed” with EA. You could rent a dedicated server and 
host several BF2 servers but they were all unranked thus very unlikely to be 
played on unless you ran a very popular mod also being only a few that did it.  
That is basically what Valve is doing here by only allowing THEM to run 
official servers which gets the majority of the traffic. Hell, even the 
developers of Ark Evolved are doing the same damn thing by only allowing 
certain providers to run “Official” servers. 

The retraction of the changes was two steps backwards and yet nobody there has 
addressed it as to the reason why. The biggest beef I have with the whole thing 
is lack of communication to the server owners/community owners.

 

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of 1nsane
Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 3:15 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

You gotta remember that for a while hosting servers for valve's games was a 
great way to get a community going in an online game. But now it's completely 
different. Even EA let's you host ranked games which allow players to rank up 
on them. Where you can compete for traffic with official servers. While valve 
does nothing like that. We're locked out from all that. Valve only let's you 
run second tier servers. You could run all the same settings as they do and yet 
no one would play on such a server without the advantages (quick play defaults) 
and the incentives (contracts) that valve servers give to players.

On Aug 4, 2015 2:03 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com wrote:

If no one at Valve really cared, then official servers wouldn't have been 
removed from the browser, even if it was only for a few days. From what I 
heard, there are only a few people left on the TF team, and at least one of 
them is anti-community. The removal of official servers from the list was 
probably done by a junior employee which is why it got reversed.

 

I agree there's not much chance something will change, which is why I only 
bothered to reply to this thread a month later. But we know there's at least 
one person that might care. 

 

And at the very least, we can keep reminding people not to devote too much time 
and effort into anything related to Valve because they will wipe out community 
servers built up over years without hesitation just like they did in TF2. 

 

If you are involved or thinking about being involved (workshop, websites, 
servers)  in the Valve ecosystem (Dota2, CS:GO) you might want to think twice 
about spending too much effort into what you are doing.

 

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:34 AM, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote:

Yea, also got one.

 

Von: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Paul
Gesendet: Dienstag, 04. August 2015 15:06


An: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

Although off topic, is anyone here getting any spam or similar email from 
someone named 'Amy Happy'? I've had two emails via this mailing list from this 
person in the last few hours.

 

On 4 August 2015 at 12:41, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote:

Oh look, another ignorant person. Guess you never ran any TF2 servers then.

 

Von: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] Im Auftrag von Brian Riedel
Gesendet: Dienstag, 04. August 2015 13:03
An: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Betreff: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

 

Seriously, this. If your servers can't retain people, then that's a problem 
with the strength of your community, not with the updates to quickplay.

 

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey rovanion.luc...@gmail.com 
wrote:

Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and without 
the constant whining?

 

2015-08-04 12:54 GMT+02:00 Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com:

Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is and 
that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a whole 
doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many people 
think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're never wrong 
ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger portion of the 
community raise their voice about it.

 

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support 
towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single penny/cent 
on games such as Team

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Rowedahelicon]

Shutting down communities won't help anything, anyone will just either stop
playing TF2 or hop right on a Valve server, you'd be doing what Valve wants
you to do.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:30 PM, Ash . astrida...@googlemail.com wrote:

 I'll be honest, after hearing these same talking points many times over I
 have only one more thing to say.

 Valve aren't gonna listen until players make waves. That isn't going to
 happen by us complaining. There's only one sure-fire way to get this to
 happen.

 Make a fuss in our own communities about it.

 Ask our own community members who know how much time we put in to running
 servers to support our cause. Ask them to join the FQP group. At least that
 way we can co-ordinate our efforts as admins. I know a number of you on
 this mailing list are already members.

 Failing that, I'm being brutal by saying this, shut down our servers. Even
 if only temporarily. When people in our communities ask why, tell them and
 ask them to personally email Valve and post on the TF2 forums on Steam.
 That will get attention.

 The sort of volume of attention that would generate would at least
 hopefully get a response from Valve.

 How many members do all of our communities actively hold?

 On 4 August 2015 at 22:44, Tim Anderson twjander...@gmail.com wrote:

 It amazes me that there are people like you that think like that. How bad
 can Valve fanboys get?

 How are we supposed to police other people's servers? I have personally
 made dozens of reports and Valve has done nothing to them for months before
 I stopped bothered to check. What else are we supposed to do?

 It is Valve's job to keep the server list clean. And they did it the lazy
 way by virtually banning community servers. Now they keep killing community
 servers by only introducing official server only content.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Lyrai lyr...@gmail.com wrote:

 That thought process is why we are where we are now. Valve doesn't trust
 community servers to police the community beyond their own nose. They tried
 to trust us for years and nothing happened. Terrible servers and shitty
 communities ran rampant, and it was the duty of the community to try and
 stop them, especially if the community wants to turn around and screech
 like a howler monkey that Valve OWES you something because we're the
 LIFEBLOOD and we're the reason they exist yadda yadda.

 Valve put the game in our hands, and no one did a damn thing about the
 health of the game on the whole until it affected them, personally. Only
 then did the persecution complex kick into high gear, and we busted out the
 crack theories that Valve has specific anti community people who secretly
 move against you instead of, you know, just fucking striking you from the
 server list like an actual Valve employee would do. Any one server owner is
 not important enough to even entertain the paranoia theories abound here.

 There is one group responsible for the state of the tf2 community, and
 its the tf2 community.
 On Aug 4, 2015 1:32 PM, Tim Anderson twjander...@gmail.com wrote:

 We are not responsible for other people's actions. Does the police jail
 an entire neighborhood because they keep finding criminals there? If you
 want me to be responsible for what other people do, then give me the
 ability to ban servers from the master list.

 The way Valve dealt with bad servers, if that is actually the problem,
 is both lazy and unfitting of a supposedly top company.

 I remember deciding between joining a battlefield or tf2 community, and
 thinking that the tf2 community would last longer because battlefield
 community servers were second tier servers much like tf2 servers are now. I
 thought to myself, Valve would never do something like that. At least EA
 didn't change such a major aspect in the middle of the game's lifetime.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses
 instead of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these
 .


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 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses
 instead of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these
 .


 ___
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 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 ___
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 please visit:
 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Tim Anderson]

It amazes me that there are people like you that think like that. How bad
can Valve fanboys get?

How are we supposed to police other people's servers? I have personally
made dozens of reports and Valve has done nothing to them for months before
I stopped bothered to check. What else are we supposed to do?

It is Valve's job to keep the server list clean. And they did it the lazy
way by virtually banning community servers. Now they keep killing community
servers by only introducing official server only content.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Lyrai lyr...@gmail.com wrote:

 That thought process is why we are where we are now. Valve doesn't trust
 community servers to police the community beyond their own nose. They tried
 to trust us for years and nothing happened. Terrible servers and shitty
 communities ran rampant, and it was the duty of the community to try and
 stop them, especially if the community wants to turn around and screech
 like a howler monkey that Valve OWES you something because we're the
 LIFEBLOOD and we're the reason they exist yadda yadda.

 Valve put the game in our hands, and no one did a damn thing about the
 health of the game on the whole until it affected them, personally. Only
 then did the persecution complex kick into high gear, and we busted out the
 crack theories that Valve has specific anti community people who secretly
 move against you instead of, you know, just fucking striking you from the
 server list like an actual Valve employee would do. Any one server owner is
 not important enough to even entertain the paranoia theories abound here.

 There is one group responsible for the state of the tf2 community, and its
 the tf2 community.
 On Aug 4, 2015 1:32 PM, Tim Anderson twjander...@gmail.com wrote:

 We are not responsible for other people's actions. Does the police jail
 an entire neighborhood because they keep finding criminals there? If you
 want me to be responsible for what other people do, then give me the
 ability to ban servers from the master list.

 The way Valve dealt with bad servers, if that is actually the problem, is
 both lazy and unfitting of a supposedly top company.

 I remember deciding between joining a battlefield or tf2 community, and
 thinking that the tf2 community would last longer because battlefield
 community servers were second tier servers much like tf2 servers are now. I
 thought to myself, Valve would never do something like that. At least EA
 didn't change such a major aspect in the middle of the game's lifetime.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead
 of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead
 of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


 ___
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 please visit:
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Lyrai]

That thought process is why we are where we are now. Valve doesn't trust
community servers to police the community beyond their own nose. They tried
to trust us for years and nothing happened. Terrible servers and shitty
communities ran rampant, and it was the duty of the community to try and
stop them, especially if the community wants to turn around and screech
like a howler monkey that Valve OWES you something because we're the
LIFEBLOOD and we're the reason they exist yadda yadda.

Valve put the game in our hands, and no one did a damn thing about the
health of the game on the whole until it affected them, personally. Only
then did the persecution complex kick into high gear, and we busted out the
crack theories that Valve has specific anti community people who secretly
move against you instead of, you know, just fucking striking you from the
server list like an actual Valve employee would do. Any one server owner is
not important enough to even entertain the paranoia theories abound here.

There is one group responsible for the state of the tf2 community, and its
the tf2 community.
On Aug 4, 2015 1:32 PM, Tim Anderson twjander...@gmail.com wrote:

 We are not responsible for other people's actions. Does the police jail an
 entire neighborhood because they keep finding criminals there? If you want
 me to be responsible for what other people do, then give me the ability to
 ban servers from the master list.

 The way Valve dealt with bad servers, if that is actually the problem, is
 both lazy and unfitting of a supposedly top company.

 I remember deciding between joining a battlefield or tf2 community, and
 thinking that the tf2 community would last longer because battlefield
 community servers were second tier servers much like tf2 servers are now. I
 thought to myself, Valve would never do something like that. At least EA
 didn't change such a major aspect in the middle of the game's lifetime.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead
 of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


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 please visit:
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 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead
 of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


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 please visit:
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Ash .]

I'll be honest, after hearing these same talking points many times over I
have only one more thing to say.

Valve aren't gonna listen until players make waves. That isn't going to
happen by us complaining. There's only one sure-fire way to get this to
happen.

Make a fuss in our own communities about it.

Ask our own community members who know how much time we put in to running
servers to support our cause. Ask them to join the FQP group. At least that
way we can co-ordinate our efforts as admins. I know a number of you on
this mailing list are already members.

Failing that, I'm being brutal by saying this, shut down our servers. Even
if only temporarily. When people in our communities ask why, tell them and
ask them to personally email Valve and post on the TF2 forums on Steam.
That will get attention.

The sort of volume of attention that would generate would at least
hopefully get a response from Valve.

How many members do all of our communities actively hold?

On 4 August 2015 at 22:44, Tim Anderson twjander...@gmail.com wrote:

 It amazes me that there are people like you that think like that. How bad
 can Valve fanboys get?

 How are we supposed to police other people's servers? I have personally
 made dozens of reports and Valve has done nothing to them for months before
 I stopped bothered to check. What else are we supposed to do?

 It is Valve's job to keep the server list clean. And they did it the lazy
 way by virtually banning community servers. Now they keep killing community
 servers by only introducing official server only content.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Lyrai lyr...@gmail.com wrote:

 That thought process is why we are where we are now. Valve doesn't trust
 community servers to police the community beyond their own nose. They tried
 to trust us for years and nothing happened. Terrible servers and shitty
 communities ran rampant, and it was the duty of the community to try and
 stop them, especially if the community wants to turn around and screech
 like a howler monkey that Valve OWES you something because we're the
 LIFEBLOOD and we're the reason they exist yadda yadda.

 Valve put the game in our hands, and no one did a damn thing about the
 health of the game on the whole until it affected them, personally. Only
 then did the persecution complex kick into high gear, and we busted out the
 crack theories that Valve has specific anti community people who secretly
 move against you instead of, you know, just fucking striking you from the
 server list like an actual Valve employee would do. Any one server owner is
 not important enough to even entertain the paranoia theories abound here.

 There is one group responsible for the state of the tf2 community, and
 its the tf2 community.
 On Aug 4, 2015 1:32 PM, Tim Anderson twjander...@gmail.com wrote:

 We are not responsible for other people's actions. Does the police jail
 an entire neighborhood because they keep finding criminals there? If you
 want me to be responsible for what other people do, then give me the
 ability to ban servers from the master list.

 The way Valve dealt with bad servers, if that is actually the problem,
 is both lazy and unfitting of a supposedly top company.

 I remember deciding between joining a battlefield or tf2 community, and
 thinking that the tf2 community would last longer because battlefield
 community servers were second tier servers much like tf2 servers are now. I
 thought to myself, Valve would never do something like that. At least EA
 didn't change such a major aspect in the middle of the game's lifetime.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead
 of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


 ___
 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead
 of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


 ___
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 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds



 ___
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

If no one at Valve really cared, then official servers wouldn't have been
removed from the browser, even if it was only for a few days. From what I
heard, there are only a few people left on the TF team, and at least one of
them is anti-community. The removal of official servers from the list was
probably done by a junior employee which is why it got reversed.

I agree there's not much chance something will change, which is why I only
bothered to reply to this thread a month later. But we know there's at
least one person that might care.

And at the very least, we can keep reminding people not to devote too much
time and effort into anything related to Valve because they will wipe out
community servers built up over years without hesitation just like they did
in TF2.

If you are involved or thinking about being involved (workshop, websites,
servers)  in the Valve ecosystem (Dota2, CS:GO) you might want to think
twice about spending too much effort into what you are doing.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:34 AM, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote:

 Yea, also got one.



 *Von:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Paul
 *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 04. August 2015 15:06

 *An:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
 *Betreff:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released



 Although off topic, is anyone here getting any spam or similar email from
 someone named 'Amy Happy'? I've had two emails via this mailing list from
 this person in the last few hours.



 On 4 August 2015 at 12:41, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote:

 Oh look, another ignorant person. Guess you never ran any TF2 servers then.



 *Von:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Brian Riedel
 *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 04. August 2015 13:03
 *An:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
 *Betreff:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released



 Seriously, this. If your servers can't retain people, then that's a
 problem with the strength of your community, not with the updates to
 quickplay.



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey rovanion.luc...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and
 without the constant whining?



 2015-08-04 12:54 GMT+02:00 Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
 :

 Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

 Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is
 and that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a
 whole doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many
 people think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're
 never wrong ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger
 portion of the community raise their voice about it.



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support
 towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single
 penny/cent on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these
 contracts. I also asked a good number of my friends to see what their
 opinion was and quite a number of them aren't either apparently. It's so
 disappointing to see that a company who originally developed great games
 has gone from being open and fair to being closed and apparently mostly
 interested in ways to pull more cash from their games. There are so many
 good ideas here which are being ignored, as workarounds. If things ever
 changed for the better then I, along with quite a number of other people
 I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games such as Team Fortress
 2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the community which made
 Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it beginning to lose
 support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely care about
 them still?



 On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
 wrote:

 Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few
 years ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They
 don't care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at
 Valve now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more money.



 On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up
 making poor decisions that are killing community servers.



 The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about
 something. You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting
 through quickplay? One down. But now there are people complaining about
 contracts and saying they don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you
 going to remove that too? Of course not.



 So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that
 can't even be bothered to type valve

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Tim Anderson]

We are not responsible for other people's actions. Does the police jail an
entire neighborhood because they keep finding criminals there? If you want
me to be responsible for what other people do, then give me the ability to
ban servers from the master list.

The way Valve dealt with bad servers, if that is actually the problem, is
both lazy and unfitting of a supposedly top company.

I remember deciding between joining a battlefield or tf2 community, and
thinking that the tf2 community would last longer because battlefield
community servers were second tier servers much like tf2 servers are now. I
thought to myself, Valve would never do something like that. At least EA
didn't change such a major aspect in the middle of the game's lifetime.

On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead of
 adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


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On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 12:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead of
 adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[N-Gon]

This quickplay conversation became tiresome after the umpteenth time.
Valve will address it when they feel like it, not when complaints keep
rolling it.
Surely you have realized that over the course of the past two years...

http://i.imgur.com/Xz07DrT.png


On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
 The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead of
 adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[1nsane]

You gotta remember that for a while hosting servers for valve's games was a
great way to get a community going in an online game. But now it's
completely different. Even EA let's you host ranked games which allow
players to rank up on them. Where you can compete for traffic with official
servers. While valve does nothing like that. We're locked out from all
that. Valve only let's you run second tier servers. You could run all the
same settings as they do and yet no one would play on such a server without
the advantages (quick play defaults) and the incentives (contracts) that
valve servers give to players.
On Aug 4, 2015 2:03 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com wrote:

 If no one at Valve really cared, then official servers wouldn't have been
 removed from the browser, even if it was only for a few days. From what I
 heard, there are only a few people left on the TF team, and at least one of
 them is anti-community. The removal of official servers from the list was
 probably done by a junior employee which is why it got reversed.

 I agree there's not much chance something will change, which is why I only
 bothered to reply to this thread a month later. But we know there's at
 least one person that might care.

 And at the very least, we can keep reminding people not to devote too much
 time and effort into anything related to Valve because they will wipe out
 community servers built up over years without hesitation just like they did
 in TF2.

 If you are involved or thinking about being involved (workshop, websites,
 servers)  in the Valve ecosystem (Dota2, CS:GO) you might want to think
 twice about spending too much effort into what you are doing.

 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:34 AM, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote:

 Yea, also got one.



 *Von:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Paul
 *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 04. August 2015 15:06

 *An:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
 *Betreff:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released



 Although off topic, is anyone here getting any spam or similar email from
 someone named 'Amy Happy'? I've had two emails via this mailing list from
 this person in the last few hours.



 On 4 August 2015 at 12:41, Andreas Willinger aw...@gmx.at wrote:

 Oh look, another ignorant person. Guess you never ran any TF2 servers
 then.



 *Von:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *Im Auftrag von *Brian Riedel
 *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 04. August 2015 13:03
 *An:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
 *Betreff:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released



 Seriously, this. If your servers can't retain people, then that's a
 problem with the strength of your community, not with the updates to
 quickplay.



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Rovanion Luckey 
 rovanion.luc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is there an email list on which I can get the update announcements and
 without the constant whining?



 2015-08-04 12:54 GMT+02:00 Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
 :

 Can I get a confirmation my emails go in?

 Anyway, wait until Dota II stops being popular, that's where the money is
 and that's where the focus is! Thing is is that the TF2 community as a
 whole doesn't seem to understand why TF2 is as bad as it is, far too many
 people think that everyone Valve does is for the best and that they're
 never wrong ever. The response may be more effective if a much larger
 portion of the community raise their voice about it.



 On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 5:32 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 Since Valve appears to have more or less confirmed their lack of support
 towards communities these days I haven't bothered spending a single
 penny/cent on games such as Team Fortress 2, especially not on these
 contracts. I also asked a good number of my friends to see what their
 opinion was and quite a number of them aren't either apparently. It's so
 disappointing to see that a company who originally developed great games
 has gone from being open and fair to being closed and apparently mostly
 interested in ways to pull more cash from their games. There are so many
 good ideas here which are being ignored, as workarounds. If things ever
 changed for the better then I, along with quite a number of other people
 I'm sure, would be motivated in buying items on games such as Team Fortress
 2 again. Come on Valve, open your mind to us - the community which made
 Team Fortress 2 towards what it is today (prior to it beginning to lose
 support for the community servers)! Somewhere you must surely care about
 them still?



 On 4 August 2015 at 04:40, Rowedahelicon theoneando...@rowedahelicon.com
 wrote:

 Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few
 years ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They
 don't care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at
 Valve now, and Valve servers mean

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek]

You can blame your fellow server-ops for that.
The only thing you can blame valve for is kicking all our asses instead 
of adding a proper report and blacklist system to deal with these .


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up
making poor decisions that are killing community servers.

The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about
something. You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting
through quickplay? One down. But now there are people complaining about
contracts and saying they don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you
going to remove that too? Of course not.

So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that
can't even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the expense
of everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for themselves? If
people do not like a server for having reserved slots or ads, then they
will not return, and the server will have fewer players.

The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for a
couple days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not
the best experience for the players who don't like official servers. Please
don't wait another year to fix this.

If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then I
would suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off.
However to see any real change, the official server toggle on the quickplay
GUI should automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still
guarantee that new players know what a vanilla experience is.
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Rowedahelicon]

Oh they know the setup is unfair, they said so from the very start a few
years ago, and last year they promised they'd give us a middle ground. They
don't care you see, Valve employees have said how money drives direction at
Valve now, and Valve servers mean less modding means more money.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 7:08 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
wrote:

 The TF2 team, in a misguided effort to silence all complaints, ended up
 making poor decisions that are killing community servers.

 The truth is, whatever you do, someone is going to complain about
 something. You blocked ads from being displayed for people connecting
 through quickplay? One down. But now there are people complaining about
 contracts and saying they don't want CS:GO garbage in their game. Are you
 going to remove that too? Of course not.

 So far you have been unfairly accommodating to the type of players that
 can't even be bothered to type valve in the server browser at the expense
 of everyone else. What happened to letting people decide for themselves? If
 people do not like a server for having reserved slots or ads, then they
 will not return, and the server will have fewer players.

 The fact that you hid official servers from the browser, at least for a
 couple days, proves that you know the current setup to be unfair and not
 the best experience for the players who don't like official servers. Please
 don't wait another year to fix this.

 If people are actually use the browser to find official servers, then I
 would suggest having a toggle for that on the browser, defaulted to off.
 However to see any real change, the official server toggle on the quickplay
 GUI should automatically be turned off after a few hours. That would still
 guarantee that new players know what a vanilla experience is.

 ___
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 please visit:
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-- 
*Matthew (Rowedahelicon) Robinson*
Web Designer / Artist / Writer
Website - http://www.rowedahelicon.com/
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Cats From Above]

Actually, decent community servers who provide value to their respective
communities generally do not have funding issues. It is possible to be a
donation driven community without handing out stupid perks. Just as it is
equally possible to innovate new features and game modes for your servers
that players actually feel like financially supporting. If you think that
MOTD advertisements are the only way to run a cost-neutral server, then I
can't help but thing that you must be running some pretty poor servers that
the community would be better without.

PS: For the amusement of all mailing list members, I'll simply point out
that Paul ubyu@gmail.com is an active MOTDgd.com affiliate. This adds
context to his claim that advertising is no longer an issue.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Michael Loveless mloveless1...@gmail.com
wrote:

 So what you're essentially saying is that it's perfectly fine for Valve to
 suck every penny out of players for cosmetics  pay to win items, to allow
 the community servers to build up the game for years then steal all their
 clients by virtually stuffing Official Servers down their throat while
 monetize them via the aforementioned items (and Pinion-type ads for years)
 but it's not okay for a regular Joe with a full time job to put safe,
 non-threatening video advertisements on the MOTD of their servers so it's
 not just another expense like everything else in life is? We are supposed
 to expect pre-teens, teenagers, and even young adults who either have no
 income or likely minimal income to donate on a monthly basis, especially
 when Valve has so many shiny objects dangling in front of their faces?
 Basically what you're argument is, is that no one should be running servers
 except for those with disposable income who can afford to do it solely as
 an expense?

 Laughter ensues.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:32 AM, Cats From Above spotsfromab...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Seeing Paul attempt to portray advertising as a non-issue is completely
 ineffable - that being far beyond the descriptive capability of words or
 laughter. The continuing existence of MOTD advertising encourages all the
 wrong behaviours within the community servers that use it. Furthermore, as
 E. Olsen noted, it contributes to an overall image problem with community
 servers and in itself gives players additional reason to use Quickplay
 instead of the server browser. (Quickplay being completely immune to MOTD
 adverts after all).






 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 I hate to correct some people here, but advertising is no longer an
 issue so I don't see why it has been brought up when it's no longer a
 problem. HTML MOTD is not possible when the client joins via matchmaking or
 quickplay, Valve changed that a long time ago. Sure, there are a few rogue
 servers which physically force you to re-enable HTML MOTD cvar if you
 disabled it, but even then if you join via matchmaking or quickplay you
 still can't see it, so it's moot. Thanks :).

 On 5 July 2015 at 05:28, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com wrote:

 The entire point of Quickplay from the get-go was to help people to
 easily find servers offering vanilla-ish gameplay. That is, major game
 settings are set to their defaults, no custom gamemodes, no game-breaking
 donor perks, etc.

 It's a decent idea, the only problem is that Valve added it and then 
 *ignored
 it*. Then people started realizing that they can register for
 Quickplay and pretend to be vanilla and nothing bad would happen to them
 for months, if ever.

 To this date, I'm not quite sure that anyone at Valve even looks at
 reports submitted with the in-game report tool (or the bug reporter either,
 for that matter).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Cats From Above 
 spotsfromab...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your version of events borders on white-knighting, in my honest
 opinion. Valve has a share of blame for allowing an environment where
 unscrupulous operators were rewarded financially simply by getting people
 to join thier servers. The rise of Pinion and the like was attractive to
 individuals who wanted to cash-in on advertising. And what better way to
 boost your profits then by tricking players into joining your servers
 thinking that they were fuller than what they were or that they had real
 people on them. MOTD Advertising is what made that deception attractive -
 it was the reward behind it all. Yes, the players would disconnect the
 second they realised that the server was empty or that they were playing
 against bots, but the operator still got to cash in on an impression.

 So did Quickplay solve the problem? No. Why? Because it didn't remove
 the sugar from the table. Rather it just meant that instead of deceiving
 the player (Who would have likely remembered the name of a bad community)
 the unscrupulous operators were now deceiving Quickplay instead - How 
 grand
 it must have been for operators intending to run cash-cow servers to have
 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[E. Olsen]

Agreed.

Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated for years (and
how many still do). To suggest that there has been some kind of fundamental
shift in the game's demographic that would prevent that model from working
now is simply not true.

In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a server
community in the first years of TF2 existence now have even more disposable
income should they wish to do so.

The difference between the two funding models is that as opposed to those
MOTD ads, a server community that is supported through donations has to
provide enough actual value to players that they CHOOSE to support that
community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize anyone that connects, without
providing any additional value (and in so many cases, because the system is
so open to abuse, the servers are/were barely suitable for running TF2 at
all in terms of performance).

There seems to be a misconception here, though. I'm certainly not saying
that all servers/communities that run those ads are bad. Far from it. Nor
am I saying that those who use them are somehow doing so in a malicious or
underhanded manner.

However, I AM saying that when something that has been allowed to be used
on community servers sullies the general reputation of those very servers
so much that we actually have players that resist the slightest change that
would give community servers a little more exposure, then perhaps it is
time to start the conversation about whether it is in the best interest of
community servers operators as a whole to continue to allow those ads to
function.

Frankly, if we have choose between restoring and rebuilding player
confidence in the quality of community servers, or  allowing those ads to
run until there are no players left willing to set foot on a community
server, the answer would seem to be an easy one.



On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Cats From Above spotsfromab...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Actually, decent community servers who provide value to their respective
 communities generally do not have funding issues. It is possible to be a
 donation driven community without handing out stupid perks. Just as it is
 equally possible to innovate new features and game modes for your servers
 that players actually feel like financially supporting. If you think that
 MOTD advertisements are the only way to run a cost-neutral server, then I
 can't help but thing that you must be running some pretty poor servers that
 the community would be better without.

 PS: For the amusement of all mailing list members, I'll simply point out
 that Paul ubyu@gmail.com is an active MOTDgd.com affiliate. This
 adds context to his claim that advertising is no longer an issue.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Michael Loveless mloveless1...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 So what you're essentially saying is that it's perfectly fine for Valve
 to suck every penny out of players for cosmetics  pay to win items, to
 allow the community servers to build up the game for years then steal all
 their clients by virtually stuffing Official Servers down their throat
 while monetize them via the aforementioned items (and Pinion-type ads for
 years) but it's not okay for a regular Joe with a full time job to put
 safe, non-threatening video advertisements on the MOTD of their servers so
 it's not just another expense like everything else in life is? We are
 supposed to expect pre-teens, teenagers, and even young adults who either
 have no income or likely minimal income to donate on a monthly basis,
 especially when Valve has so many shiny objects dangling in front of their
 faces? Basically what you're argument is, is that no one should be running
 servers except for those with disposable income who can afford to do it
 solely as an expense?

 Laughter ensues.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:32 AM, Cats From Above spotsfromab...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 Seeing Paul attempt to portray advertising as a non-issue is completely
 ineffable - that being far beyond the descriptive capability of words or
 laughter. The continuing existence of MOTD advertising encourages all the
 wrong behaviours within the community servers that use it. Furthermore, as
 E. Olsen noted, it contributes to an overall image problem with community
 servers and in itself gives players additional reason to use Quickplay
 instead of the server browser. (Quickplay being completely immune to MOTD
 adverts after all).






 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 I hate to correct some people here, but advertising is no longer an
 issue so I don't see why it has been brought up when it's no longer a
 problem. HTML MOTD is not possible when the client joins via matchmaking or
 quickplay, Valve changed that a long time ago. Sure, there are a few rogue
 servers which physically force you to re-enable HTML MOTD cvar if you
 disabled it, but even then if you join via matchmaking or quickplay you
 still can't see it, so it's moot. Thanks :).

 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Paul]

I hate to correct some people here, but advertising is no longer an issue
so I don't see why it has been brought up when it's no longer a problem.
HTML MOTD is not possible when the client joins via matchmaking or
quickplay, Valve changed that a long time ago. Sure, there are a few rogue
servers which physically force you to re-enable HTML MOTD cvar if you
disabled it, but even then if you join via matchmaking or quickplay you
still can't see it, so it's moot. Thanks :).

On 5 July 2015 at 05:28, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com wrote:

 The entire point of Quickplay from the get-go was to help people to easily
 find servers offering vanilla-ish gameplay. That is, major game settings
 are set to their defaults, no custom gamemodes, no game-breaking donor
 perks, etc.

 It's a decent idea, the only problem is that Valve added it and then *ignored
 it*. Then people started realizing that they can register for Quickplay
 and pretend to be vanilla and nothing bad would happen to them for months,
 if ever.

 To this date, I'm not quite sure that anyone at Valve even looks at
 reports submitted with the in-game report tool (or the bug reporter either,
 for that matter).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Cats From Above spotsfromab...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 Your version of events borders on white-knighting, in my honest opinion.
 Valve has a share of blame for allowing an environment where unscrupulous
 operators were rewarded financially simply by getting people to join thier
 servers. The rise of Pinion and the like was attractive to individuals who
 wanted to cash-in on advertising. And what better way to boost your profits
 then by tricking players into joining your servers thinking that they were
 fuller than what they were or that they had real people on them. MOTD
 Advertising is what made that deception attractive - it was the reward
 behind it all. Yes, the players would disconnect the second they realised
 that the server was empty or that they were playing against bots, but the
 operator still got to cash in on an impression.

 So did Quickplay solve the problem? No. Why? Because it didn't remove the
 sugar from the table. Rather it just meant that instead of deceiving the
 player (Who would have likely remembered the name of a bad community) the
 unscrupulous operators were now deceiving Quickplay instead - How grand it
 must have been for operators intending to run cash-cow servers to have
 Quickplay steering unsuspecting traffic to them. In my view that made the
 situation worse and in a manner that was reasonably foreseeable. Yet
 somehow it escaped Valve. What they should have done was killed the notion
 of MOTD advertising from the onset so that a business model built on
 deception wasn't financially lucrative. Instead they had a knee-jerk
 reaction and banished all community servers (good and bad) from the primary
 Quickplay pool. Some people would say this response is a colossal
 non-sequitur and they'd be right.

 I wrote a 1400 word response on this topic but I decided that I could
 make my point with the summary above and that such would probably be more
 appreciated than a giant wall of text. Let me know if I'm mistaken.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Phillip Vector t...@mostdeadlygame.com
 wrote:

 What you just said implies that *every *community server provides a
 modified game-play experience, which is not only a dubious claim but one
 that almost certainly stems from a distinct level of benightedness.

 A modified game-play experience, yes. Even if it's just placing a text
 ad every 5 mins., it is a difference experience than stock. I did not mean
 to imply that all community servers modify game play. But I would be
 interested in seeing one community server that operates like the default
 Valve servers do.

 There are community servers out there, many of them, which offer a
 vanilla experience in aspects of game-play. My question to you is why
 should those servers be treated as second-class citizens to Valve servers
 by default.

 They shouldn't. However, I don't know how long you have been part of
 this, but I recall when community servers weren't treated differently. Some
 were terrible and cheated the system to trick players joining their
 servers. When Valve tried to stop them, they cheated the system more. Even
 after Valve constantly tried to help those community servers who played by
 the rules, the community kept calling foul.

 So eventually, Valve (rightly so IMHO) said Fuck it and made all
 community servers suspect.

 Valve is on the right track giving community servers who play by the
 rules equal standing for valve servers. But I'm pretty sure that some
 community is going to start gaming the system and Valve will have to say,
 Fuck it again.




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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Cats From Above]

Seeing Paul attempt to portray advertising as a non-issue is completely
ineffable - that being far beyond the descriptive capability of words or
laughter. The continuing existence of MOTD advertising encourages all the
wrong behaviours within the community servers that use it. Furthermore, as
E. Olsen noted, it contributes to an overall image problem with community
servers and in itself gives players additional reason to use Quickplay
instead of the server browser. (Quickplay being completely immune to MOTD
adverts after all).






On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 I hate to correct some people here, but advertising is no longer an issue
 so I don't see why it has been brought up when it's no longer a problem.
 HTML MOTD is not possible when the client joins via matchmaking or
 quickplay, Valve changed that a long time ago. Sure, there are a few rogue
 servers which physically force you to re-enable HTML MOTD cvar if you
 disabled it, but even then if you join via matchmaking or quickplay you
 still can't see it, so it's moot. Thanks :).

 On 5 July 2015 at 05:28, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com wrote:

 The entire point of Quickplay from the get-go was to help people to
 easily find servers offering vanilla-ish gameplay. That is, major game
 settings are set to their defaults, no custom gamemodes, no game-breaking
 donor perks, etc.

 It's a decent idea, the only problem is that Valve added it and then *ignored
 it*. Then people started realizing that they can register for Quickplay
 and pretend to be vanilla and nothing bad would happen to them for months,
 if ever.

 To this date, I'm not quite sure that anyone at Valve even looks at
 reports submitted with the in-game report tool (or the bug reporter either,
 for that matter).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Cats From Above 
 spotsfromab...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your version of events borders on white-knighting, in my honest opinion.
 Valve has a share of blame for allowing an environment where unscrupulous
 operators were rewarded financially simply by getting people to join thier
 servers. The rise of Pinion and the like was attractive to individuals who
 wanted to cash-in on advertising. And what better way to boost your profits
 then by tricking players into joining your servers thinking that they were
 fuller than what they were or that they had real people on them. MOTD
 Advertising is what made that deception attractive - it was the reward
 behind it all. Yes, the players would disconnect the second they realised
 that the server was empty or that they were playing against bots, but the
 operator still got to cash in on an impression.

 So did Quickplay solve the problem? No. Why? Because it didn't remove
 the sugar from the table. Rather it just meant that instead of deceiving
 the player (Who would have likely remembered the name of a bad community)
 the unscrupulous operators were now deceiving Quickplay instead - How grand
 it must have been for operators intending to run cash-cow servers to have
 Quickplay steering unsuspecting traffic to them. In my view that made the
 situation worse and in a manner that was reasonably foreseeable. Yet
 somehow it escaped Valve. What they should have done was killed the notion
 of MOTD advertising from the onset so that a business model built on
 deception wasn't financially lucrative. Instead they had a knee-jerk
 reaction and banished all community servers (good and bad) from the primary
 Quickplay pool. Some people would say this response is a colossal
 non-sequitur and they'd be right.

 I wrote a 1400 word response on this topic but I decided that I could
 make my point with the summary above and that such would probably be more
 appreciated than a giant wall of text. Let me know if I'm mistaken.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Phillip Vector t...@mostdeadlygame.com
 wrote:

 What you just said implies that *every *community server provides a
 modified game-play experience, which is not only a dubious claim but one
 that almost certainly stems from a distinct level of benightedness.

 A modified game-play experience, yes. Even if it's just placing a text
 ad every 5 mins., it is a difference experience than stock. I did not mean
 to imply that all community servers modify game play. But I would be
 interested in seeing one community server that operates like the default
 Valve servers do.

 There are community servers out there, many of them, which offer a
 vanilla experience in aspects of game-play. My question to you is why
 should those servers be treated as second-class citizens to Valve servers
 by default.

 They shouldn't. However, I don't know how long you have been part of
 this, but I recall when community servers weren't treated differently. Some
 were terrible and cheated the system to trick players joining their
 servers. When Valve tried to stop them, they cheated the system more. Even
 after Valve constantly tried to help those community servers 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[E. Olsen]

If you honestly think advertising is no longer and issue, than you don't
read reddit, or the steam user forums. While Valve may have blocked
advertising in the engine for players who connect via quickplay (and thanks
for that - those of us who've never used that junk got to see our MOTD
functionality removed because of people that did), it didn't stop it from
severely sullying the image of community server operators.

It may not be a functionality problem now, but it IS certainly an image
problem. As long as server operators have the ability to monetize the very
act of a player connecting to a server, it will always invite abuse, and
will present players with the image that all server operators are just
trying to make a buck from the game, etc.

Right or wrong, that's the perception, and if you don't think that
community servers have a perception problem, you haven't been reading what
players have been saying for the last couple of years (or even this weekend
for that matter).

It might not be welcome to hear for some folks, but I will never be
convinced allowing Pinion-type ads was a good thing for the game, for the
players, of for community servers as a whole. Even if the argument is made
that valve partnered with Pinion in the past, that doesn't negate the
fact that it's done more harm than anything else to the *perception* of the
quality and intent of community servers.

If nothing else, MOTD advertising has painted us all with the same negative
brush in the eyes of players (even those communities that, to this day,
have never used those ads).

The best way to alleviate that perception, would be to simply alleviate
that ability for those ads to run as all. Would that be completely fair?
Certainly not, but neither is the damage to the reputation of ALL community
servers in the eyes of new players that it has caused.


On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 I hate to correct some people here, but advertising is no longer an issue
 so I don't see why it has been brought up when it's no longer a problem.
 HTML MOTD is not possible when the client joins via matchmaking or
 quickplay, Valve changed that a long time ago. Sure, there are a few rogue
 servers which physically force you to re-enable HTML MOTD cvar if you
 disabled it, but even then if you join via matchmaking or quickplay you
 still can't see it, so it's moot. Thanks :).

 On 5 July 2015 at 05:28, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com wrote:

 The entire point of Quickplay from the get-go was to help people to
 easily find servers offering vanilla-ish gameplay. That is, major game
 settings are set to their defaults, no custom gamemodes, no game-breaking
 donor perks, etc.

 It's a decent idea, the only problem is that Valve added it and then *ignored
 it*. Then people started realizing that they can register for Quickplay
 and pretend to be vanilla and nothing bad would happen to them for months,
 if ever.

 To this date, I'm not quite sure that anyone at Valve even looks at
 reports submitted with the in-game report tool (or the bug reporter either,
 for that matter).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Cats From Above 
 spotsfromab...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your version of events borders on white-knighting, in my honest opinion.
 Valve has a share of blame for allowing an environment where unscrupulous
 operators were rewarded financially simply by getting people to join thier
 servers. The rise of Pinion and the like was attractive to individuals who
 wanted to cash-in on advertising. And what better way to boost your profits
 then by tricking players into joining your servers thinking that they were
 fuller than what they were or that they had real people on them. MOTD
 Advertising is what made that deception attractive - it was the reward
 behind it all. Yes, the players would disconnect the second they realised
 that the server was empty or that they were playing against bots, but the
 operator still got to cash in on an impression.

 So did Quickplay solve the problem? No. Why? Because it didn't remove
 the sugar from the table. Rather it just meant that instead of deceiving
 the player (Who would have likely remembered the name of a bad community)
 the unscrupulous operators were now deceiving Quickplay instead - How grand
 it must have been for operators intending to run cash-cow servers to have
 Quickplay steering unsuspecting traffic to them. In my view that made the
 situation worse and in a manner that was reasonably foreseeable. Yet
 somehow it escaped Valve. What they should have done was killed the notion
 of MOTD advertising from the onset so that a business model built on
 deception wasn't financially lucrative. Instead they had a knee-jerk
 reaction and banished all community servers (good and bad) from the primary
 Quickplay pool. Some people would say this response is a colossal
 non-sequitur and they'd be right.

 I wrote a 1400 word response on this topic but I decided that I could
 make my point with 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Paul]

I guess either way nobody can win, so things should just stay as they are
then. One side will argue you're right, the other side will also argue
you're wrong however. It's one of these topics which have two perfectly
amicable views.

On 5 July 2015 at 13:46, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

 If you honestly think advertising is no longer and issue, than you don't
 read reddit, or the steam user forums. While Valve may have blocked
 advertising in the engine for players who connect via quickplay (and thanks
 for that - those of us who've never used that junk got to see our MOTD
 functionality removed because of people that did), it didn't stop it from
 severely sullying the image of community server operators.

 It may not be a functionality problem now, but it IS certainly an
 image problem. As long as server operators have the ability to monetize
 the very act of a player connecting to a server, it will always invite
 abuse, and will present players with the image that all server operators
 are just trying to make a buck from the game, etc.

 Right or wrong, that's the perception, and if you don't think that
 community servers have a perception problem, you haven't been reading what
 players have been saying for the last couple of years (or even this weekend
 for that matter).

 It might not be welcome to hear for some folks, but I will never be
 convinced allowing Pinion-type ads was a good thing for the game, for the
 players, of for community servers as a whole. Even if the argument is made
 that valve partnered with Pinion in the past, that doesn't negate the
 fact that it's done more harm than anything else to the *perception* of
 the quality and intent of community servers.

 If nothing else, MOTD advertising has painted us all with the same
 negative brush in the eyes of players (even those communities that, to this
 day, have never used those ads).

 The best way to alleviate that perception, would be to simply alleviate
 that ability for those ads to run as all. Would that be completely fair?
 Certainly not, but neither is the damage to the reputation of ALL community
 servers in the eyes of new players that it has caused.


 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 I hate to correct some people here, but advertising is no longer an issue
 so I don't see why it has been brought up when it's no longer a problem.
 HTML MOTD is not possible when the client joins via matchmaking or
 quickplay, Valve changed that a long time ago. Sure, there are a few rogue
 servers which physically force you to re-enable HTML MOTD cvar if you
 disabled it, but even then if you join via matchmaking or quickplay you
 still can't see it, so it's moot. Thanks :).

 On 5 July 2015 at 05:28, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com wrote:

 The entire point of Quickplay from the get-go was to help people to
 easily find servers offering vanilla-ish gameplay. That is, major game
 settings are set to their defaults, no custom gamemodes, no game-breaking
 donor perks, etc.

 It's a decent idea, the only problem is that Valve added it and then 
 *ignored
 it*. Then people started realizing that they can register for Quickplay
 and pretend to be vanilla and nothing bad would happen to them for months,
 if ever.

 To this date, I'm not quite sure that anyone at Valve even looks at
 reports submitted with the in-game report tool (or the bug reporter either,
 for that matter).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Cats From Above 
 spotsfromab...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your version of events borders on white-knighting, in my honest
 opinion. Valve has a share of blame for allowing an environment where
 unscrupulous operators were rewarded financially simply by getting people
 to join thier servers. The rise of Pinion and the like was attractive to
 individuals who wanted to cash-in on advertising. And what better way to
 boost your profits then by tricking players into joining your servers
 thinking that they were fuller than what they were or that they had real
 people on them. MOTD Advertising is what made that deception attractive -
 it was the reward behind it all. Yes, the players would disconnect the
 second they realised that the server was empty or that they were playing
 against bots, but the operator still got to cash in on an impression.

 So did Quickplay solve the problem? No. Why? Because it didn't remove
 the sugar from the table. Rather it just meant that instead of deceiving
 the player (Who would have likely remembered the name of a bad community)
 the unscrupulous operators were now deceiving Quickplay instead - How grand
 it must have been for operators intending to run cash-cow servers to have
 Quickplay steering unsuspecting traffic to them. In my view that made the
 situation worse and in a manner that was reasonably foreseeable. Yet
 somehow it escaped Valve. What they should have done was killed the notion
 of MOTD advertising from the onset so that a business model built on
 deception 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Michael Loveless]

So what you're essentially saying is that it's perfectly fine for Valve to
suck every penny out of players for cosmetics  pay to win items, to allow
the community servers to build up the game for years then steal all their
clients by virtually stuffing Official Servers down their throat while
monetize them via the aforementioned items (and Pinion-type ads for years)
but it's not okay for a regular Joe with a full time job to put safe,
non-threatening video advertisements on the MOTD of their servers so it's
not just another expense like everything else in life is? We are supposed
to expect pre-teens, teenagers, and even young adults who either have no
income or likely minimal income to donate on a monthly basis, especially
when Valve has so many shiny objects dangling in front of their faces?
Basically what you're argument is, is that no one should be running servers
except for those with disposable income who can afford to do it solely as
an expense?

Laughter ensues.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:32 AM, Cats From Above spotsfromab...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Seeing Paul attempt to portray advertising as a non-issue is completely
 ineffable - that being far beyond the descriptive capability of words or
 laughter. The continuing existence of MOTD advertising encourages all the
 wrong behaviours within the community servers that use it. Furthermore, as
 E. Olsen noted, it contributes to an overall image problem with community
 servers and in itself gives players additional reason to use Quickplay
 instead of the server browser. (Quickplay being completely immune to MOTD
 adverts after all).






 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Paul ubyu@gmail.com wrote:

 I hate to correct some people here, but advertising is no longer an issue
 so I don't see why it has been brought up when it's no longer a problem.
 HTML MOTD is not possible when the client joins via matchmaking or
 quickplay, Valve changed that a long time ago. Sure, there are a few rogue
 servers which physically force you to re-enable HTML MOTD cvar if you
 disabled it, but even then if you join via matchmaking or quickplay you
 still can't see it, so it's moot. Thanks :).

 On 5 July 2015 at 05:28, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com wrote:

 The entire point of Quickplay from the get-go was to help people to
 easily find servers offering vanilla-ish gameplay. That is, major game
 settings are set to their defaults, no custom gamemodes, no game-breaking
 donor perks, etc.

 It's a decent idea, the only problem is that Valve added it and then 
 *ignored
 it*. Then people started realizing that they can register for Quickplay
 and pretend to be vanilla and nothing bad would happen to them for months,
 if ever.

 To this date, I'm not quite sure that anyone at Valve even looks at
 reports submitted with the in-game report tool (or the bug reporter either,
 for that matter).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 12:07 AM, Cats From Above 
 spotsfromab...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your version of events borders on white-knighting, in my honest
 opinion. Valve has a share of blame for allowing an environment where
 unscrupulous operators were rewarded financially simply by getting people
 to join thier servers. The rise of Pinion and the like was attractive to
 individuals who wanted to cash-in on advertising. And what better way to
 boost your profits then by tricking players into joining your servers
 thinking that they were fuller than what they were or that they had real
 people on them. MOTD Advertising is what made that deception attractive -
 it was the reward behind it all. Yes, the players would disconnect the
 second they realised that the server was empty or that they were playing
 against bots, but the operator still got to cash in on an impression.

 So did Quickplay solve the problem? No. Why? Because it didn't remove
 the sugar from the table. Rather it just meant that instead of deceiving
 the player (Who would have likely remembered the name of a bad community)
 the unscrupulous operators were now deceiving Quickplay instead - How grand
 it must have been for operators intending to run cash-cow servers to have
 Quickplay steering unsuspecting traffic to them. In my view that made the
 situation worse and in a manner that was reasonably foreseeable. Yet
 somehow it escaped Valve. What they should have done was killed the notion
 of MOTD advertising from the onset so that a business model built on
 deception wasn't financially lucrative. Instead they had a knee-jerk
 reaction and banished all community servers (good and bad) from the primary
 Quickplay pool. Some people would say this response is a colossal
 non-sequitur and they'd be right.

 I wrote a 1400 word response on this topic but I decided that I could
 make my point with the summary above and that such would probably be more
 appreciated than a giant wall of text. Let me know if I'm mistaken.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Phillip Vector t...@mostdeadlygame.com
 wrote:

 What you just said implies 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek]

I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads are a 
huge problem on community servers. Feel free to write a script that 
connects to all tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.
Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect the 
average joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe setting his 
display resolution.


In the good old days younger people would just gather a few friends, 
create a clan and throw together part of their allowance to rent a 
gameserver. Later on they would actually survive on donations. Hosting 
was driven by passion.
Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother wants 
to run a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and whatnot to earn 
money from the servers. Sorry, it never worked that way.
Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to remove servers 
from the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't remove every single shit 
server there is, but it's a decent first step. Evaluate, and go from 
there. It's not like Valve wouldn't spit in server-ops' faces. The issue 
is they don't pick the right ones.


Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server debate, we 
were quite unaffected in the EU. I must say however, the pinion people 
on spuf get a lot of respect from me. A lot of people shit on them for 
the right reasons, and they keep it together. I couldn't do that, god 
only knows.


On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:
Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many 
of the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible 
performance issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's 
okay for Valve, a multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not 
average Joe trying to make some money back on what already isn't a 
negligible expense?


But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if 
players still have that delusion, then there's really nothing that can 
be done about it. Best to just flip the switch back to all servers by 
default (and reset Valve's quickplay scores, they're very artificially 
inflated now).


On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com 
mailto:ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:


Agreed.

Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated for
years (and how many still do). To suggest that there has been some
kind of fundamental shift in the game's demographic that would
prevent that model from working now is simply not true.

In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a
server community in the first years of TF2 existence now have even
more disposable income should they wish to do so.

The difference between the two funding models is that as opposed
to those MOTD ads, a server community that is supported through
donations has to provide enough actual value to players that they
CHOOSE to support that community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize
anyone that connects, without providing any additional value (and
in so many cases, because the system is so open to abuse, the
servers are/were barely suitable for running TF2 at all in terms
of performance).

There seems to be a misconception here, though. I'm certainly not
saying that all servers/communities that run those ads are bad.
Far from it. Nor am I saying that those who use them are somehow
doing so in a malicious or underhanded manner.

However, I AM saying that when something that has been allowed to
be used on community servers sullies the general reputation of
those very servers so much that we actually have players that
resist the slightest change that would give community servers a
little more exposure, then perhaps it is time to start the
conversation about whether it is in the best interest of community
servers operators as a whole to continue to allow those ads to
function.

Frankly, if we have choose between restoring and rebuilding player
confidence in the quality of community servers, or  allowing those
ads to run until there are no players left willing to set foot on
a community server, the answer would seem to be an easy one.


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Alexander Corn]

Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many of
the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance
issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to
make some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?

But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players
still have that delusion, then there's really nothing that can be done
about it. Best to just flip the switch back to all servers by default (and
reset Valve's quickplay scores, they're very artificially inflated now).

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.

 Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated for years (and
 how many still do). To suggest that there has been some kind of fundamental
 shift in the game's demographic that would prevent that model from working
 now is simply not true.

 In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a server
 community in the first years of TF2 existence now have even more disposable
 income should they wish to do so.

 The difference between the two funding models is that as opposed to those
 MOTD ads, a server community that is supported through donations has to
 provide enough actual value to players that they CHOOSE to support that
 community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize anyone that connects, without
 providing any additional value (and in so many cases, because the system is
 so open to abuse, the servers are/were barely suitable for running TF2 at
 all in terms of performance).

 There seems to be a misconception here, though. I'm certainly not saying
 that all servers/communities that run those ads are bad. Far from it. Nor
 am I saying that those who use them are somehow doing so in a malicious or
 underhanded manner.

 However, I AM saying that when something that has been allowed to be used
 on community servers sullies the general reputation of those very servers
 so much that we actually have players that resist the slightest change that
 would give community servers a little more exposure, then perhaps it is
 time to start the conversation about whether it is in the best interest of
 community servers operators as a whole to continue to allow those ads to
 function.

 Frankly, if we have choose between restoring and rebuilding player
 confidence in the quality of community servers, or  allowing those ads to
 run until there are no players left willing to set foot on a community
 server, the answer would seem to be an easy one.



 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:03 AM, Cats From Above spotsfromab...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 Actually, decent community servers who provide value to their respective
 communities generally do not have funding issues. It is possible to be a
 donation driven community without handing out stupid perks. Just as it is
 equally possible to innovate new features and game modes for your servers
 that players actually feel like financially supporting. If you think that
 MOTD advertisements are the only way to run a cost-neutral server, then I
 can't help but thing that you must be running some pretty poor servers that
 the community would be better without.

 PS: For the amusement of all mailing list members, I'll simply point out
 that Paul ubyu@gmail.com is an active MOTDgd.com affiliate. This
 adds context to his claim that advertising is no longer an issue.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 11:25 PM, Michael Loveless 
 mloveless1...@gmail.com wrote:

 So what you're essentially saying is that it's perfectly fine for Valve
 to suck every penny out of players for cosmetics  pay to win items, to
 allow the community servers to build up the game for years then steal all
 their clients by virtually stuffing Official Servers down their throat
 while monetize them via the aforementioned items (and Pinion-type ads for
 years) but it's not okay for a regular Joe with a full time job to put
 safe, non-threatening video advertisements on the MOTD of their servers so
 it's not just another expense like everything else in life is? We are
 supposed to expect pre-teens, teenagers, and even young adults who either
 have no income or likely minimal income to donate on a monthly basis,
 especially when Valve has so many shiny objects dangling in front of their
 faces? Basically what you're argument is, is that no one should be running
 servers except for those with disposable income who can afford to do it
 solely as an expense?

 Laughter ensues.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:32 AM, Cats From Above 
 spotsfromab...@gmail.com wrote:

 Seeing Paul attempt to portray advertising as a non-issue is completely
 ineffable - that being far beyond the descriptive capability of words or
 laughter. The continuing existence of MOTD advertising encourages all the
 wrong behaviours within the community servers that use it. Furthermore, as
 E. Olsen noted, it contributes to an 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Saint K.]

Amen.
 
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Matthias 
InstantMuffin Kollek
Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 8:31 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released
 
I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads are a huge 
problem on community servers. Feel free to write a script that connects to all 
tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.
Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect the average 
joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe setting his display 
resolution.

In the good old days younger people would just gather a few friends, create a 
clan and throw together part of their allowance to rent a gameserver. Later on 
they would actually survive on donations. Hosting was driven by passion.
Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother wants to run 
a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and whatnot to earn money from the 
servers. Sorry, it never worked that way.
Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to remove servers from 
the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't remove every single shit server there 
is, but it's a decent first step. Evaluate, and go from there. It's not like 
Valve wouldn't spit in server-ops' faces. The issue is they don't pick the 
right ones.

Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server debate, we were 
quite unaffected in the EU. I must say however, the pinion people on spuf get a 
lot of respect from me. A lot of people shit on them for the right reasons, and 
they keep it together. I couldn't do that, god only knows.
On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:
Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many of the 
CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance issues (like 
Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a 
multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to make 
some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?
But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players still 
have that delusion, then there's really nothing that can be done about it. Best 
to just flip the switch back to all servers by default (and reset Valve's 
quickplay scores, they're very artificially inflated now).
 
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:
Agreed. 
 
Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated for years (and how 
many still do). To suggest that there has been some kind of fundamental shift 
in the game's demographic that would prevent that model from working now is 
simply not true.
 
In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a server community 
in the first years of TF2 existence now have even more disposable income should 
they wish to do so.
 
The difference between the two funding models is that as opposed to those MOTD 
ads, a server community that is supported through donations has to provide 
enough actual value to players that they CHOOSE to support that 
community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize anyone that connects, without 
providing any additional value (and in so many cases, because the system is so 
open to abuse, the servers are/were barely suitable for running TF2 at all in 
terms of performance).
 
There seems to be a misconception here, though. I'm certainly not saying that 
all servers/communities that run those ads are bad. Far from it. Nor am I 
saying that those who use them are somehow doing so in a malicious or 
underhanded manner.
 
However, I AM saying that when something that has been allowed to be used on 
community servers sullies the general reputation of those very servers so much 
that we actually have players that resist the slightest change that would give 
community servers a little more exposure, then perhaps it is time to start the 
conversation about whether it is in the best interest of community servers 
operators as a whole to continue to allow those ads to function.
 
Frankly, if we have choose between restoring and rebuilding player confidence 
in the quality of community servers, or  allowing those ads to run until there 
are no players left willing to set foot on a community server, the answer would 
seem to be an easy one.
 
 
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Michael Loveless]

​Yes, having a reporting system that removed servers from the list
definitely isn't something that would be abused more than MOTD
advertisements. That pub community with 5-10k members surely couldn't wipe
out their entire up and coming competition, ya know, those who are trying
to grow their community organically without simple advertisements that can
be muted, disabled, or clicked through...

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org wrote:

  I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads are a
 huge problem on community servers. Feel free to write a script that
 connects to all tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.
 Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect the
 average joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe setting his
 display resolution.

 In the good old days younger people would just gather a few friends,
 create a clan and throw together part of their allowance to rent a
 gameserver. Later on they would actually survive on donations. Hosting was
 driven by passion.
 Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother wants to
 run a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and whatnot to earn money
 from the servers. Sorry, it never worked that way.
 Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to remove servers
 from the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't remove every single shit server
 there is, but it's a decent first step. Evaluate, and go from there. It's
 not like Valve wouldn't spit in server-ops' faces. The issue is they don't
 pick the right ones.

 Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server debate, we were
 quite unaffected in the EU. I must say however, the pinion people on spuf
 get a lot of respect from me. A lot of people shit on them for the right
 reasons, and they keep it together. I couldn't do that, god only knows.

 On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:

  Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many
 of the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance
 issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
 multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to
 make some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?

  But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players
 still have that delusion, then there's really nothing that can be done
 about it. Best to just flip the switch back to all servers by default (and
 reset Valve's quickplay scores, they're very artificially inflated now).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.

  Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated for years
 (and how many still do). To suggest that there has been some kind of
 fundamental shift in the game's demographic that would prevent that model
 from working now is simply not true.

  In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a server
 community in the first years of TF2 existence now have even more disposable
 income should they wish to do so.

  The difference between the two funding models is that as opposed to
 those MOTD ads, a server community that is supported through donations has
 to provide enough actual value to players that they CHOOSE to support that
 community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize anyone that connects, without
 providing any additional value (and in so many cases, because the system is
 so open to abuse, the servers are/were barely suitable for running TF2 at
 all in terms of performance).

  There seems to be a misconception here, though. I'm certainly not
 saying that all servers/communities that run those ads are bad. Far from
 it. Nor am I saying that those who use them are somehow doing so in a
 malicious or underhanded manner.

  However, I AM saying that when something that has been allowed to be
 used on community servers sullies the general reputation of those very
 servers so much that we actually have players that resist the slightest
 change that would give community servers a little more exposure, then
 perhaps it is time to start the conversation about whether it is in the
 best interest of community servers operators as a whole to continue to
 allow those ads to function.

  Frankly, if we have choose between restoring and rebuilding player
 confidence in the quality of community servers, or  allowing those ads to
 run until there are no players left willing to set foot on a community
 server, the answer would seem to be an easy one.


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 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds




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 To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please 
 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Alexander Corn]

What's the problem, exactly? You're subjected to the horror that is an ad?
Please go on YouTube (with AdBlock off), watch a couple videos, then try to
tell me that YouTube is broken and is driving away users.

In a perfect world, people wouldn't flounder around helplessly and would
join a server that provides them with the gameplay experience that they
desire. But people are too lazy to do anything besides click a play button
and then complain to daddy Valve when they don't get what they want.

Maybe you have a point if you're complaining about the fact that ads
continue playing in the background when you click Continue, but those
complaints should be taken up with the ad provider, not with the server op
or with Valve.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org wrote:

  I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads are a
 huge problem on community servers. Feel free to write a script that
 connects to all tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.
 Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect the
 average joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe setting his
 display resolution.

 In the good old days younger people would just gather a few friends,
 create a clan and throw together part of their allowance to rent a
 gameserver. Later on they would actually survive on donations. Hosting was
 driven by passion.
 Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother wants to
 run a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and whatnot to earn money
 from the servers. Sorry, it never worked that way.
 Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to remove servers
 from the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't remove every single shit server
 there is, but it's a decent first step. Evaluate, and go from there. It's
 not like Valve wouldn't spit in server-ops' faces. The issue is they don't
 pick the right ones.

 Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server debate, we were
 quite unaffected in the EU. I must say however, the pinion people on spuf
 get a lot of respect from me. A lot of people shit on them for the right
 reasons, and they keep it together. I couldn't do that, god only knows.

 On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:

  Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many
 of the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance
 issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
 multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to
 make some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?

  But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players
 still have that delusion, then there's really nothing that can be done
 about it. Best to just flip the switch back to all servers by default (and
 reset Valve's quickplay scores, they're very artificially inflated now).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.

  Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated for years
 (and how many still do). To suggest that there has been some kind of
 fundamental shift in the game's demographic that would prevent that model
 from working now is simply not true.

  In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a server
 community in the first years of TF2 existence now have even more disposable
 income should they wish to do so.

  The difference between the two funding models is that as opposed to
 those MOTD ads, a server community that is supported through donations has
 to provide enough actual value to players that they CHOOSE to support that
 community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize anyone that connects, without
 providing any additional value (and in so many cases, because the system is
 so open to abuse, the servers are/were barely suitable for running TF2 at
 all in terms of performance).

  There seems to be a misconception here, though. I'm certainly not
 saying that all servers/communities that run those ads are bad. Far from
 it. Nor am I saying that those who use them are somehow doing so in a
 malicious or underhanded manner.

  However, I AM saying that when something that has been allowed to be
 used on community servers sullies the general reputation of those very
 servers so much that we actually have players that resist the slightest
 change that would give community servers a little more exposure, then
 perhaps it is time to start the conversation about whether it is in the
 best interest of community servers operators as a whole to continue to
 allow those ads to function.

  Frankly, if we have choose between restoring and rebuilding player
 confidence in the quality of community servers, or  allowing those ads to
 run until there are no players left willing to set foot on a community
 server, the answer would seem to be an easy one.


  ___
 To 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Ross Bemrose]

Do you have some sort of data that shows the 30-day untradability for 
Steam Gifts and 7-day untradability for store-bought/market-bought items 
aren't preventing fraud?


That's what those restrictions were put into place for.  If they are 
managing to lower the fraud rate through those particular channels, then 
Valve wasn't wrong about them and they are working as intended.


On 7/5/2015 2:58 PM, Alexander Corn wrote:
Paid mods are the only thing in recent memory that I can think of with 
Valve admitting they made a mistake. There are plenty of other 
negative changes that I can think of which are still alive and kicking 
(30-day untradability for Steam Gifts, 7-day untradability for 
store-bought/market-bought items, etc). As far as I can tell, Valve 
only admits they're wrong when they start to receive a large volume of 
negative emails.


If they want to bring community servers back to equal footing on the 
condition that nobody can run ads anymore, then so be it. I just think 
that they're treating a symptom and not the actual problem. The actual 
problem is that (apparently) players aren't able to easily find 
desirable servers. But is desirable really well defined? Is a server 
with a skippable ad okay? Is a server with a 5-second ad okay? 10 
seconds? Is a server with round-end donor immunity okay? Desirability 
is really subjective. Personally, even as a non-server-op I think that 
Valve servers are completely undesirable for various reasons, 
including performance, skill level, and lack of moderation.


I think that Quickplay at its core is a flawed concept, but I'd be 
fine with them restoring all servers to Quickplay by default with the 
current Quickplay rules. The problem is that Valve is too lazy to 
moderate Quickplay at all. They'd rather cripple Quickplay to a point 
where it's unprofitable to put undesirable servers into its pool. 
Which also affects every other community server at the same time.


On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:49 PM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com 
mailto:ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:


Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion
hosted many of the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which
had terrible performance issues (like Valve servers now!)
*and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe
trying to make some money back on what already isn't a
negligible expense?


The fact that valve did it sure as hell doesn't mean it was a good
idea. I'm sure they would be the first to admit they're not
infallible, and have made errors in judgement.

Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players
still have that delusion, then there's really nothing that can
be done about it.


Of course there is. When there is a perception problem, you can
take a proactive stance to fix what is causing that perception
problem.  Like it or not, servers running those ads have caused a
perception problem.

At any rate, this is the same argument that has gone in circles
for two years, and probably contributes to why Valve won't lift a
finger to help communities still passionate about the game. The
people who want the right to monetize a player connection with an
ad impression will always scream at the top of their lungs that
they should be allowed to do anything they want, and we've already
seen Valve response to that.

At any rate, I think the more prudent course is to continue to try
to change Valve's mind directly. If people think all the cynicism
and insults hurled Valve's way will change things, then by all
means - keep in keeping on.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Saint K. sai...@specialattack.net
mailto:sai...@specialattack.net wrote:

Amen.

*From:*hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of
*Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek
*Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2015 8:31 PM
*To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but
ads are a huge problem on community servers. Feel free to
write a script that connects to all tf2 servers and keep the
speakers on.


Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't
expect the average joe to be able to do anything else other
than maybe setting his display resolution.

In the good old days younger people would just gather a few
friends, create a clan and throw together part of their
allowance to rent a gameserver. Later on they would actually
survive on donations. Hosting was driven by passion.
Nowadays every

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Alexander Corn]

So then go to Pinion, MOTDgd, et al and insist that ads have a reasonable
sound level or else they get banned from the game entirely. Sounds like a
better solution that trying to stamp out every server which uses ads, no?

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org wrote:

  Your schedule must be pretty busy, following your rule you literally have
 to complain about overwatch, the community profile reporting system, the
 csgo server reporting system, the tf2 abuse report system, steam discussion
 reporting system, spuf...

 There's well-known established solutions to handle this kind of noise.
 It's a really old issue.

 @McKay: Sound. It's mostly the sound. Those ads have an insanely high
 volume. I know hearing loss is actually very common among younger people
 these days, but I want to be a lonely exception and keep my hearing.
 Seriously, they're loud as fuck.
 I wouldn't mind the occasional ad if it were at an acceptable noise level
 and *necessary for a community with decent servers and content to survive*
 .


 On 05.07.2015 20:36, Michael Loveless wrote:

  ​Yes, having a reporting system that removed servers from the list
 definitely isn't something that would be abused more than MOTD
 advertisements. That pub community with 5-10k members surely couldn't wipe
 out their entire up and coming competition, ya know, those who are trying
 to grow their community organically without simple advertisements that can
 be muted, disabled, or clicked through...

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

  I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads are
 a huge problem on community servers. Feel free to write a script that
 connects to all tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.
 Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect the
 average joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe setting his
 display resolution.

 In the good old days younger people would just gather a few friends,
 create a clan and throw together part of their allowance to rent a
 gameserver. Later on they would actually survive on donations. Hosting was
 driven by passion.
 Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother wants
 to run a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and whatnot to earn
 money from the servers. Sorry, it never worked that way.
 Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to remove servers
 from the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't remove every single shit server
 there is, but it's a decent first step. Evaluate, and go from there. It's
 not like Valve wouldn't spit in server-ops' faces. The issue is they don't
 pick the right ones.

 Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server debate, we
 were quite unaffected in the EU. I must say however, the pinion people on
 spuf get a lot of respect from me. A lot of people shit on them for the
 right reasons, and they keep it together. I couldn't do that, god only
 knows.

 On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:

  Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many
 of the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance
 issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
 multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to
 make some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?

  But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if
 players still have that delusion, then there's really nothing that can be
 done about it. Best to just flip the switch back to all servers by default
 (and reset Valve's quickplay scores, they're very artificially inflated
 now).

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.

  Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated for years
 (and how many still do). To suggest that there has been some kind of
 fundamental shift in the game's demographic that would prevent that model
 from working now is simply not true.

  In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a server
 community in the first years of TF2 existence now have even more disposable
 income should they wish to do so.

  The difference between the two funding models is that as opposed to
 those MOTD ads, a server community that is supported through donations has
 to provide enough actual value to players that they CHOOSE to support that
 community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize anyone that connects, without
 providing any additional value (and in so many cases, because the system is
 so open to abuse, the servers are/were barely suitable for running TF2 at
 all in terms of performance).

  There seems to be a misconception here, though. I'm certainly not
 saying that all servers/communities that run those ads are bad. Far from
 it. Nor am I saying that those who use them are somehow doing so in a
 malicious or underhanded 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek]

Where did I say that every server that even dares to play a single ad 
needs to go? All the time I've been talking about servers that are 
*ad-_infested_**and p2w*.
If anything in this regard raises any questions as to what I find 
intolerable about ads, it should be answered pretty clearly in my 
response that you've just quoted.


I don't know if (only?) going to each and every ad distributor is the 
right call here. Sound volume should just be configurable server-side 
(this is something one could take to pinion etc.) and any disturbances 
should be handled by a report system.
Just with the policy of truth, these rules need to be engraved in stone 
and published by valve so that these distributors can (and have to) react.


On 05.07.2015 21:11, Alexander Corn wrote:
So then go to Pinion, MOTDgd, et al and insist that ads have a 
reasonable sound level or else they get banned from the game entirely. 
Sounds like a better solution that trying to stamp out every server 
which uses ads, no?


On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org mailto:proph...@sticed.org wrote:


Your schedule must be pretty busy, following your rule you
literally have to complain about overwatch, the community profile
reporting system, the csgo server reporting system, the tf2 abuse
report system, steam discussion reporting system, spuf...

There's well-known established solutions to handle this kind of
noise. It's a really old issue.

@McKay: Sound. It's mostly the sound. Those ads have an insanely
high volume. I know hearing loss is actually very common among
younger people these days, but I want to be a lonely exception and
keep my hearing. Seriously, they're loud as fuck.
I wouldn't mind the occasional ad if it were at an acceptable
noise level and *necessary for a community with decent servers and
content to survive*.


On 05.07.2015 20:36, Michael Loveless wrote:

​Yes, having a reporting system that removed servers from the
list definitely isn't something that would be abused more than
MOTD advertisements. That pub community with 5-10k members surely
couldn't wipe out their entire up and coming competition, ya
know, those who are trying to grow their community organically
without simple advertisements that can be muted, disabled, or
clicked through...

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek
proph...@sticed.org mailto:proph...@sticed.org wrote:

I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically,
but ads are a huge problem on community servers. Feel free to
write a script that connects to all tf2 servers and keep the
speakers on.
Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't
expect the average joe to be able to do anything else other
than maybe setting his display resolution.

In the good old days younger people would just gather a few
friends, create a clan and throw together part of their
allowance to rent a gameserver. Later on they would actually
survive on donations. Hosting was driven by passion.
Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their
mother wants to run a server and pay nothing for it. And use
ads and whatnot to earn money from the servers. Sorry, it
never worked that way.
Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to
remove servers from the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't
remove every single shit server there is, but it's a decent
first step. Evaluate, and go from there. It's not like Valve
wouldn't spit in server-ops' faces. The issue is they don't
pick the right ones.

Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server
debate, we were quite unaffected in the EU. I must say
however, the pinion people on spuf get a lot of respect from
me. A lot of people shit on them for the right reasons, and
they keep it together. I couldn't do that, god only knows.

On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:

Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion
hosted many of the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which
had terrible performance issues (like Valve servers now!)
*and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average
Joe trying to make some money back on what already isn't a
negligible expense?

But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2
and if players still have that delusion, then there's really
nothing that can be done about it. Best to just flip the
switch back to all servers by default (and reset Valve's
quickplay scores, they're very artificially inflated now).

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek]

Hello Powerlord,

No, no one has except valve. How are we supposed to gather that data? 
That alone should raise a healthy amount of suspicion since it's a 
question that is practically meant to not be definitely answered.
You could only guess that it might have some effect on how many 
attempted scams are happening (bots sending friend requests or leaving 
comments) that you are affected by, and refer from there. I don't think 
the amount changed at all IMO.


I could also guess these restrictions have been made so that the cleanup 
crew has an easier job tracking stuff. So this might work in multiple ways.


On 05.07.2015 21:11, Ross Bemrose wrote:
Do you have some sort of data that shows the 30-day untradability for 
Steam Gifts and 7-day untradability for store-bought/market-bought 
items aren't preventing fraud?


That's what those restrictions were put into place for.  If they are 
managing to lower the fraud rate through those particular channels, 
then Valve wasn't wrong about them and they are working as intended.


On 7/5/2015 2:58 PM, Alexander Corn wrote:
Paid mods are the only thing in recent memory that I can think of 
with Valve admitting they made a mistake. There are plenty of other 
negative changes that I can think of which are still alive and 
kicking (30-day untradability for Steam Gifts, 7-day untradability 
for store-bought/market-bought items, etc). As far as I can tell, 
Valve only admits they're wrong when they start to receive a large 
volume of negative emails.


If they want to bring community servers back to equal footing on the 
condition that nobody can run ads anymore, then so be it. I just 
think that they're treating a symptom and not the actual problem. The 
actual problem is that (apparently) players aren't able to easily 
find desirable servers. But is desirable really well defined? Is a 
server with a skippable ad okay? Is a server with a 5-second ad okay? 
10 seconds? Is a server with round-end donor immunity okay? 
Desirability is really subjective. Personally, even as a 
non-server-op I think that Valve servers are completely undesirable 
for various reasons, including performance, skill level, and lack of 
moderation.


I think that Quickplay at its core is a flawed concept, but I'd be 
fine with them restoring all servers to Quickplay by default with the 
current Quickplay rules. The problem is that Valve is too lazy to 
moderate Quickplay at all. They'd rather cripple Quickplay to a point 
where it's unprofitable to put undesirable servers into its pool. 
Which also affects every other community server at the same time.




___
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visit:
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___
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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Alexander Corn]

You know what else would prevent fraud? Turning off trading entirely. That
doesn't mean that it would be a good idea.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:11 PM, Ross Bemrose rbemr...@gmail.com wrote:

  Do you have some sort of data that shows the 30-day untradability for
 Steam Gifts and 7-day untradability for store-bought/market-bought items
 aren't preventing fraud?

 That's what those restrictions were put into place for.  If they are
 managing to lower the fraud rate through those particular channels, then
 Valve wasn't wrong about them and they are working as intended.


 On 7/5/2015 2:58 PM, Alexander Corn wrote:

  Paid mods are the only thing in recent memory that I can think of with
 Valve admitting they made a mistake. There are plenty of other negative
 changes that I can think of which are still alive and kicking (30-day
 untradability for Steam Gifts, 7-day untradability for
 store-bought/market-bought items, etc). As far as I can tell, Valve only
 admits they're wrong when they start to receive a large volume of negative
 emails.

  If they want to bring community servers back to equal footing on the
 condition that nobody can run ads anymore, then so be it. I just think that
 they're treating a symptom and not the actual problem. The actual problem
 is that (apparently) players aren't able to easily find desirable servers.
 But is desirable really well defined? Is a server with a skippable ad
 okay? Is a server with a 5-second ad okay? 10 seconds? Is a server with
 round-end donor immunity okay? Desirability is really subjective.
 Personally, even as a non-server-op I think that Valve servers are
 completely undesirable for various reasons, including performance, skill
 level, and lack of moderation.

  I think that Quickplay at its core is a flawed concept, but I'd be fine
 with them restoring all servers to Quickplay by default with the current
 Quickplay rules. The problem is that Valve is too lazy to moderate
 Quickplay at all. They'd rather cripple Quickplay to a point where it's
 unprofitable to put undesirable servers into its pool. Which also affects
 every other community server at the same time.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:49 PM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

  Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many
 of the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance
 issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
 multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to
 make some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?


  The fact that valve did it sure as hell doesn't mean it was a good
 idea. I'm sure they would be the first to admit they're not infallible, and
 have made errors in judgement.

  Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players still have
 that delusion, then there's really nothing that can be done about it.


  Of course there is. When there is a perception problem, you can take a
 proactive stance to fix what is causing that perception problem.  Like it
 or not, servers running those ads have caused a perception problem.

  At any rate, this is the same argument that has gone in circles for two
 years, and probably contributes to why Valve won't lift a finger to help
 communities still passionate about the game. The people who want the right
 to monetize a player connection with an ad impression will always scream at
 the top of their lungs that they should be allowed to do anything they
 want, and we've already seen Valve response to that.

  At any rate, I think the more prudent course is to continue to try to
 change Valve's mind directly. If people think all the cynicism and insults
 hurled Valve's way will change things, then by all means - keep in keeping
 on.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Saint K. sai...@specialattack.net
 wrote:

  Amen.



 *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Matthias
 InstantMuffin Kollek
 *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2015 8:31 PM
 *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
 *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released



 I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads are a
 huge problem on community servers. Feel free to write a script that
 connects to all tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.

 Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect the
 average joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe setting his
 display resolution.

 In the good old days younger people would just gather a few friends,
 create a clan and throw together part of their allowance to rent a
 gameserver. Later on they would actually survive on donations. Hosting was
 driven by passion.
 Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother wants
 to run a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and whatnot to earn
 money from the servers. Sorry, it never worked that way.
 Solution is fairly simple. Have

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[E. Olsen]

 Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many of
 the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance
 issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
 multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to
 make some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?


The fact that valve did it sure as hell doesn't mean it was a good idea.
I'm sure they would be the first to admit they're not infallible, and have
made errors in judgement.

Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players still have that
 delusion, then there's really nothing that can be done about it.


Of course there is. When there is a perception problem, you can take a
proactive stance to fix what is causing that perception problem.  Like it
or not, servers running those ads have caused a perception problem.

At any rate, this is the same argument that has gone in circles for two
years, and probably contributes to why Valve won't lift a finger to help
communities still passionate about the game. The people who want the right
to monetize a player connection with an ad impression will always scream at
the top of their lungs that they should be allowed to do anything they
want, and we've already seen Valve response to that.

At any rate, I think the more prudent course is to continue to try to
change Valve's mind directly. If people think all the cynicism and insults
hurled Valve's way will change things, then by all means - keep in keeping
on.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Saint K. sai...@specialattack.net wrote:

 Amen.



 *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Matthias
 InstantMuffin Kollek
 *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2015 8:31 PM
 *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
 *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released



 I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads are a
 huge problem on community servers. Feel free to write a script that
 connects to all tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.

 Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect the
 average joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe setting his
 display resolution.

 In the good old days younger people would just gather a few friends,
 create a clan and throw together part of their allowance to rent a
 gameserver. Later on they would actually survive on donations. Hosting was
 driven by passion.
 Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother wants to
 run a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and whatnot to earn money
 from the servers. Sorry, it never worked that way.
 Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to remove servers
 from the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't remove every single shit server
 there is, but it's a decent first step. Evaluate, and go from there. It's
 not like Valve wouldn't spit in server-ops' faces. The issue is they don't
 pick the right ones.

 Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server debate, we were
 quite unaffected in the EU. I must say however, the pinion people on spuf
 get a lot of respect from me. A lot of people shit on them for the right
 reasons, and they keep it together. I couldn't do that, god only knows.

 On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:

 Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many of
 the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance
 issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
 multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to
 make some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?

 But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players
 still have that delusion, then there's really nothing that can be done
 about it. Best to just flip the switch back to all servers by default (and
 reset Valve's quickplay scores, they're very artificially inflated now).



 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed.



 Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated for years (and
 how many still do). To suggest that there has been some kind of fundamental
 shift in the game's demographic that would prevent that model from working
 now is simply not true.



 In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a server
 community in the first years of TF2 existence now have even more disposable
 income should they wish to do so.



 The difference between the two funding models is that as opposed to those
 MOTD ads, a server community that is supported through donations has to
 provide enough actual value to players that they CHOOSE to support that
 community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize anyone that connects, without
 providing any additional value (and in so many cases, because the system is
 so open to abuse, the servers are/were barely

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek]

Your schedule must be pretty busy, following your rule you literally 
have to complain about overwatch, the community profile reporting 
system, the csgo server reporting system, the tf2 abuse report system, 
steam discussion reporting system, spuf...


There's well-known established solutions to handle this kind of noise. 
It's a really old issue.


@McKay: Sound. It's mostly the sound. Those ads have an insanely high 
volume. I know hearing loss is actually very common among younger people 
these days, but I want to be a lonely exception and keep my hearing. 
Seriously, they're loud as fuck.
I wouldn't mind the occasional ad if it were at an acceptable noise 
level and *necessary for a community with decent servers and content to 
survive*.


On 05.07.2015 20:36, Michael Loveless wrote:
​Yes, having a reporting system that removed servers from the list 
definitely isn't something that would be abused more than MOTD 
advertisements. That pub community with 5-10k members surely couldn't 
wipe out their entire up and coming competition, ya know, those who 
are trying to grow their community organically without simple 
advertisements that can be muted, disabled, or clicked through...


On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org mailto:proph...@sticed.org wrote:


I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads
are a huge problem on community servers. Feel free to write a
script that connects to all tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.
Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect
the average joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe
setting his display resolution.

In the good old days younger people would just gather a few
friends, create a clan and throw together part of their allowance
to rent a gameserver. Later on they would actually survive on
donations. Hosting was driven by passion.
Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother
wants to run a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and
whatnot to earn money from the servers. Sorry, it never worked
that way.
Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to remove
servers from the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't remove every
single shit server there is, but it's a decent first step.
Evaluate, and go from there. It's not like Valve wouldn't spit in
server-ops' faces. The issue is they don't pick the right ones.

Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server debate,
we were quite unaffected in the EU. I must say however, the pinion
people on spuf get a lot of respect from me. A lot of people shit
on them for the right reasons, and they keep it together. I
couldn't do that, god only knows.

On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:

Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted
many of the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had
terrible performance issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran
MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a multi-billion-dollar corporation
to do it, but not average Joe trying to make some money back on
what already isn't a negligible expense?

But I digress. Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if
players still have that delusion, then there's really nothing
that can be done about it. Best to just flip the switch back to
all servers by default (and reset Valve's quickplay scores,
they're very artificially inflated now).

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 10:29 AM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com
mailto:ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

Agreed.

Donation-driven communities were how servers were operated
for years (and how many still do). To suggest that there has
been some kind of fundamental shift in the game's demographic
that would prevent that model from working now is simply not
true.

In fact, those very same people who were willing to support a
server community in the first years of TF2 existence now have
even more disposable income should they wish to do so.

The difference between the two funding models is that as
opposed to those MOTD ads, a server community that is
supported through donations has to provide enough actual
value to players that they CHOOSE to support that
community/server. MOTD ads simply monetize anyone that
connects, without providing any additional value (and in so
many cases, because the system is so open to abuse, the
servers are/were barely suitable for running TF2 at all in
terms of performance).

There seems to be a misconception here, though. I'm certainly
not saying that all servers/communities that run those ads
are bad. Far from it. Nor am I saying that those who use
them are somehow doing so in a malicious or underhanded 

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Alexander Corn]

Paid mods are the only thing in recent memory that I can think of with
Valve admitting they made a mistake. There are plenty of other negative
changes that I can think of which are still alive and kicking (30-day
untradability for Steam Gifts, 7-day untradability for
store-bought/market-bought items, etc). As far as I can tell, Valve only
admits they're wrong when they start to receive a large volume of negative
emails.

If they want to bring community servers back to equal footing on the
condition that nobody can run ads anymore, then so be it. I just think that
they're treating a symptom and not the actual problem. The actual problem
is that (apparently) players aren't able to easily find desirable servers.
But is desirable really well defined? Is a server with a skippable ad
okay? Is a server with a 5-second ad okay? 10 seconds? Is a server with
round-end donor immunity okay? Desirability is really subjective.
Personally, even as a non-server-op I think that Valve servers are
completely undesirable for various reasons, including performance, skill
level, and lack of moderation.

I think that Quickplay at its core is a flawed concept, but I'd be fine
with them restoring all servers to Quickplay by default with the current
Quickplay rules. The problem is that Valve is too lazy to moderate
Quickplay at all. They'd rather cripple Quickplay to a point where it's
unprofitable to put undesirable servers into its pool. Which also affects
every other community server at the same time.

On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:49 PM, E. Olsen ceo.eol...@gmail.com wrote:

 Are we just ignoring the fact that for a long time, Pinion hosted many of
 the CS:GO official matchmaking servers, which had terrible performance
 issues (like Valve servers now!) *and* ran MOTD ads? It's okay for Valve, a
 multi-billion-dollar corporation to do it, but not average Joe trying to
 make some money back on what already isn't a negligible expense?


 The fact that valve did it sure as hell doesn't mean it was a good idea.
 I'm sure they would be the first to admit they're not infallible, and have
 made errors in judgement.

 Ads really aren't a problem anymore in TF2 and if players still have that
 delusion, then there's really nothing that can be done about it.


 Of course there is. When there is a perception problem, you can take a
 proactive stance to fix what is causing that perception problem.  Like it
 or not, servers running those ads have caused a perception problem.

 At any rate, this is the same argument that has gone in circles for two
 years, and probably contributes to why Valve won't lift a finger to help
 communities still passionate about the game. The people who want the right
 to monetize a player connection with an ad impression will always scream at
 the top of their lungs that they should be allowed to do anything they
 want, and we've already seen Valve response to that.

 At any rate, I think the more prudent course is to continue to try to
 change Valve's mind directly. If people think all the cynicism and insults
 hurled Valve's way will change things, then by all means - keep in keeping
 on.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Saint K. sai...@specialattack.net wrote:

 Amen.



 *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
 hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Matthias
 InstantMuffin Kollek
 *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2015 8:31 PM
 *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
 *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released



 I don't know if the last paragraph is meant sarcastically, but ads are a
 huge problem on community servers. Feel free to write a script that
 connects to all tf2 servers and keep the speakers on.

 Yes, motds can be turned off client-side. But please don't expect the
 average joe to be able to do anything else other than maybe setting his
 display resolution.

 In the good old days younger people would just gather a few friends,
 create a clan and throw together part of their allowance to rent a
 gameserver. Later on they would actually survive on donations. Hosting was
 driven by passion.
 Nowadays every person that can barely even write and their mother wants
 to run a server and pay nothing for it. And use ads and whatnot to earn
 money from the servers. Sorry, it never worked that way.
 Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict report system to remove servers
 from the list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't remove every single shit server
 there is, but it's a decent first step. Evaluate, and go from there. It's
 not like Valve wouldn't spit in server-ops' faces. The issue is they don't
 pick the right ones.

 Luckily, I can't say much about the pinion-official-server debate, we
 were quite unaffected in the EU. I must say however, the pinion people on
 spuf get a lot of respect from me. A lot of people shit on them for the
 right reasons, and they keep it together. I couldn't do that, god only
 knows.

 On 05.07.2015 19:59, Alexander Corn wrote:

 Are we just

Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Just a random guy]

 Sadly, neither the campaign hoster(ad serving company, i.e pinion or motdgd) 
nor the server owner can regulate the ad volume. Some ad-placing companies talk 
to the ad aggregators and vice-versa to fix all the problems and deliver good 
ads, but right now it's mostly quantity vs. quality.


Matthias \InstantMuffin\ Kollek proph...@sticed.org:
I wouldn't mind the occasional ad if it were at an acceptable noise
level and  necessary for a community with decent servers and
  content to survive .


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Gamers Exile]

at can be done about it.


  
  Of course there is. When there is a perception
problem, you can take a proactive stance to fix what is
causing that perception problem. Like it or not,
servers running those ads have caused a perception
problem.
  
  
  At any rate, this is the same argument that has gone
in circles for two years, and probably contributes to
why Valve won't lift a finger to help communities still
passionate about the game. The people who want the right
to monetize a player connection with an ad impression
will always scream at the top of their lungs that they
should be allowed to do anything they want, and we've
already seen Valve response to that.
  
  
  At any rate, I think the more prudent course is to
continue to try to change Valve's mind directly. If
people think all the cynicism and insults hurled Valve's
way will change things, then by all means - keep in
keeping on.


  

  On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:34
PM, Saint K. sai...@specialattack.net
wrote:

  

  Amen.
  
  

  From:
  hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
  [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com]
  On Behalf Of Matthias
  "InstantMuffin" Kollek
  Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015
  8:31 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32
server mailing list
    Subject: Re: [hlds] Optional
            TF2 update released

  
  
  
I don't know
  if the last paragraph is meant
  sarcastically, but ads are a huge problem
  on community servers. Feel free to write a
  script that connects to all tf2 servers
  and keep the speakers on.

  
Yes, motds can be turned off
client-side. But please don't expect the
average joe to be able to do anything
else other than maybe setting his
display resolution.

In the good old days younger people
would just gather a few friends, create
a clan and throw together part of their
allowance to rent a gameserver. Later on
they would actually survive on
donations. Hosting was driven by
passion.
Nowadays every person that can barely
even write and their mother wants to run
a server and pay nothing for it. And use
ads and whatnot to earn money from the
servers. Sorry, it never worked that
way.
Solution is fairly simple. Have a strict
report system to remove servers from the
list. Yes, for gods sake, it won't
remove every single shit server there
is, but it's a decent first step.
Evaluate, and go from there. It's not
like Valve wouldn't spit in server-ops'
faces. The issue is they don't pick the
right ones.

Luckily, I can't say much about the
pinion-official-server debate, we were
quite unaffected in the EU. I must say
however, the pinion people on spuf get a
lot of re

[hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Eric Smith]

We've released an optional update for TF2 that fixes an exploit with players 
taunting and then dying on the final control point of payload maps. You do not 
need this update unless you are experiencing this problem. The update notes are 
below. The new version number is 2863781.

-Eric

---

- Fixed an exploit related to taunting and then dying on the final control 
point of payload maps
- Fixed a bug that was creating Specialized Killstreak Kits that could be 
applied to any item
- Fixed items that are removed from the Steam Community Market having the trade 
restriction removed
- Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers not 
being listed in the server browser while we look into this further

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Ryan Durkee]

i think just adding a tick mark that is off by default would be the best
course of action for the server browser to show valve servers.

That way people who want to see them can, but the rest of us can find
community servers much easier.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Eric Smith er...@valvesoftware.com wrote:

 We've released an optional update for TF2 that fixes an exploit with
 players taunting and then dying on the final control point of payload maps.
 You do not need this update unless you are experiencing this problem. The
 update notes are below. The new version number is 2863781.

 -Eric

 ---

 - Fixed an exploit related to taunting and then dying on the final control
 point of payload maps
 - Fixed a bug that was creating Specialized Killstreak Kits that could be
 applied to any item
 - Fixed items that are removed from the Steam Community Market having the
 trade restriction removed
 - Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers
 not being listed in the server browser while we look into this further

 ___
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 please visit:
 https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek]

Endless waves of communities explaining how quickplay (and other changes 
ofc) destroys communities, nothing happens.
Two people on the mailing list moan about valve servers being excluded 
from the list, instantfix. GJ


On 04.07.2015 23:32, Kevin C wrote:

You have got to be kidding me.

http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png wink wink nudge nudge

On 7/4/2015 5:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
- Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking 
servers not being listed in the server browser while we look into 
this further


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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Alexander Corn]

It was good start though. I'm sure that them looking into this further
will go nowhere, if the past is anything to go by.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 5:44 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Are you all really surprised by this? Valve doesn't care about community
 servers anymore. The moment 1 person complains that they couldn't wait 15
 seconds for quickplay, it gets removed.

 Anyway you are all acting like half life 3 was announced.

 The majority of players still click play now instead of using the server
 browser so removing valve servers from the browser list probably does very
 little for your own servers.

 On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 Endless waves of communities explaining how quickplay (and other changes
 ofc) destroys communities, nothing happens.
 Two people on the mailing list moan about valve servers being excluded
 from the list, instantfix. GJ


 On 04.07.2015 23:32, Kevin C wrote:

 You have got to be kidding me.

 http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png wink wink nudge nudge

 On 7/4/2015 5:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

 - Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers
 not being listed in the server browser while we look into this further

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Kevin C]

You have got to be kidding me.

http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png wink wink nudge nudge

On 7/4/2015 5:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

- Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers not 
being listed in the server browser while we look into this further

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Spencer 'Voogru' MacDonald]

- Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers not
being listed in the server browser while we look into this further.

A separate tab for valve servers. Show community servers on one tab, valve
servers on the other tab. The default tab should be 'community' tab. Since
valve was willing to hide them altogether, I think this is a reasonable
compromise.

- Voogru.

-Original Message-
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 5:29 PM
To: hlds@list.valvesoftware.com; hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com;
hlds_annou...@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

We've released an optional update for TF2 that fixes an exploit with players
taunting and then dying on the final control point of payload maps. You do
not need this update unless you are experiencing this problem. The update
notes are below. The new version number is 2863781.

-Eric

---

- Fixed an exploit related to taunting and then dying on the final control
point of payload maps
- Fixed a bug that was creating Specialized Killstreak Kits that could be
applied to any item
- Fixed items that are removed from the Steam Community Market having the
trade restriction removed
- Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers not
being listed in the server browser while we look into this further

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Jethro Seabridge]

You might want to check other forums/avenues of communication other than
the mailing list; I've seen quite a few people complain about the valve
server change.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 10:36 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 Endless waves of communities explaining how quickplay (and other changes
 ofc) destroys communities, nothing happens.
 Two people on the mailing list moan about valve servers being excluded
 from the list, instantfix. GJ


 On 04.07.2015 23:32, Kevin C wrote:

 You have got to be kidding me.

 http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png wink wink nudge nudge

 On 7/4/2015 5:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

 - Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers
 not being listed in the server browser while we look into this further

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Robert Paulson]

Are you all really surprised by this? Valve doesn't care about community
servers anymore. The moment 1 person complains that they couldn't wait 15
seconds for quickplay, it gets removed.

Anyway you are all acting like half life 3 was announced.

The majority of players still click play now instead of using the server
browser so removing valve servers from the browser list probably does very
little for your own servers.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 Endless waves of communities explaining how quickplay (and other changes
 ofc) destroys communities, nothing happens.
 Two people on the mailing list moan about valve servers being excluded
 from the list, instantfix. GJ


 On 04.07.2015 23:32, Kevin C wrote:

 You have got to be kidding me.

 http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png wink wink nudge nudge

 On 7/4/2015 5:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

 - Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking servers
 not being listed in the server browser while we look into this further

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[E. Olsen]

 However, Valve should be supporting the community more as well. Valve was
 and should still be known for giving great support to community servers.
 There have been many suggestions given to Valve that would make both sides
 happy. However, it seems like Valve just wants to ignore them. It has been
 over a year since the quick-play change was made and Valve is still are
 saying we are looking for a solution. To the TF2 developers, if you do
 not agree with any of our solutions, let us know why and we will attempt to
 adjust them to your needs. I personally think this would work great and
 make both sides happy: http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png
 If you do not feel that way, please communicate with us.


Agreed. There has to be a balance, and that UI design proposal hits all the
right notes:

Honestly, I know now we are never going to get added back to quickplay by
default. They are changing their business model for TF2 by implemeting
these paid campaigns that can only be securely run on Valve servers.

SO - to me the solution to make everyone happy (or as happy as possible)
would be the following:

*Step 1:*  Implement this UI design  functionality:
http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png (when necessary, a Competitive Matchmaking
tab can always be added to the CO-OP and More section.)

*Step 2:*  Make the following changes to the server browser:

- Change Internet to Community (always selected by default). These
obviously would be community-servers only.

- Add an Official or Valve tab (players can select that for Valve-only
servers)

- Add an MVM tab for all MVM servers (there's no reason for MVM servers
to be in either general tabs)

*Step 3:*  Add a Server Queuing system:

The policy against Kicking for Reserved Slots for quickplay-enabled
servers that the TF2 team implemented not long ago makes sense. However it
also took away one of the most important values that community server
operators can offer supporters - the perk of not having to stand in line to
use the very hardware they're paying for.

SO - I think there is an elegant solution that would vastly improve how
reserved slots currently work, AND insure that a server's supporters don't
have to wait at the back of the line to use their own hardware.

Specifically, a Server Queuing system would allow people to queue up for
entry into a server. Players on that server's whitelist would
automatically be moved to the front of the queue, insuring they receive
priority access without having to disrupt anyone's game. Such a system
would even be compatible with Quickplay if they enabled a new option to
Queue on a Full Server, etc.

A system for reserved slots exactly like the one I described was
implemented by DICE for Battlefield 3, and it was probably to most
functional and elegant system of its kind I had ever seen (and both the
players AND the server operators loved it).

*Step 4:* Make the blacklisting system work across the board (with both
Quickplay AND the server browser).
--

That's it - that's all they really need to do (there's alot more they could
do, of course, but that would just about satisfy everyone, I think).



On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Mike Vail supp...@boomgaming.net wrote:

 No, LOL! I've never had anything like that and never changed anything
 causing this to be a problem. Interesting thought though.

 On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Alexander Corn mc...@doctormckay.com
 wrote:

 Did you have a 'valve' tag in your sv_tags like a fool?

 On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Mike Vail supp...@boomgaming.net wrote:

 My player counts fell by 50% or more since yesterday's update and I
 don't even run servers that compete against the stock Valve servers.Nearly
 all my servers are trade servers without Quickplay. Once this optional
 update was released, ​my player counts instantly soared and all my custom
 servers filled instantly just like they did before yesterday. It was like
 clients couldn't see them after the update. I think there's more going on
 than just delisting Valve servers on Yesterday's update.Whatever changed,
 I'm glad it was reverted for now.

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Re: [hlds] Optional TF2 update released

[Phillip Vector]

Hence, what he actually said was an *ad hominem argument* - That being
Latin for an attack against the man

I stand corrected.

On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:57 PM, Cats From Above spotsfromab...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Well actually, what he said wasn't a *strawman *at all. A strawman is the
 misstatement of an argumentative position for the sake of attacking said
 position in an attempt to one up your opponent. Obviously, possession of a
 vendetta is not an argumentative position (false or otherwise) but rather a
 motive for having a position.

 Hence, what he actually said was an *ad hominem argument* - That being
 Latin for an attack against the man

 But in any case, I do agree that removing Valve servers from the server
 browser was not an ideal solution to the problem at hand.

 On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:08 AM, Phillip Vector t...@mostdeadlygame.com
 wrote:

 Logging cl_connectmethod

 That tells you for every server that you own. Not every server in
 existence. Your statement of The majority of players still click play
 now instead of using the server browser is missing something. It should
 say, The majority of players ON MY SERVERS.

 Of course, we don't have proof of this even on your own server, but I'm
 willing to accept that those who connect to your servers do so via the
 Play now button.

 You still can't say that the majority of players though since you don't
 have that data.

 I'm curious as to why you have a vendetta against community servers.

 Nice strawman there. I don't have a vendetta against community servers. I
 just dislike when community server owners think they are gods gift to TF2
 and demand special treatment to the determent of those who want to play
 vanilla TF2.


 On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Logging cl_connectmethod.

 Why do you presume that I am pulling it from my ass?

 I'm curious as to why you have a vendetta against community servers. Did
 you get put on saigns and couldn't figure out how to type valve in server
 browser, so you are resorting to flaming the server owners here?

 On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Phillip Vector t...@mostdeadlygame.com
 wrote:

 The majority of players still click play now instead of using the
 server browser so removing valve servers from the browser list probably
 does very little for your own servers.

 Please tell me how you managed to get access to this data. Presuming
 you aren't pulling it from your ass of course.

 On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Robert Paulson thepauls...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Are you all really surprised by this? Valve doesn't care about
 community servers anymore. The moment 1 person complains that they 
 couldn't
 wait 15 seconds for quickplay, it gets removed.

 Anyway you are all acting like half life 3 was announced.

 The majority of players still click play now instead of using the
 server browser so removing valve servers from the browser list probably
 does very little for your own servers.

 On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 2:36 PM, Matthias InstantMuffin Kollek 
 proph...@sticed.org wrote:

 Endless waves of communities explaining how quickplay (and other
 changes ofc) destroys communities, nothing happens.
 Two people on the mailing list moan about valve servers being
 excluded from the list, instantfix. GJ


 On 04.07.2015 23:32, Kevin C wrote:

 You have got to be kidding me.

 http://i.imgur.com/tAmWXj6.png wink wink nudge nudge

 On 7/4/2015 5:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

 - Temporarily reverted Valve official quickplay and matchmaking
 servers not being listed in the server browser while we look into this
 further

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