Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
It seems to me a long time ago (back in the dial up days), we restricted people from 8 AM to midnight but let them go full out and abuse the heck out of their connection if they so desired from midnight to 8 AM. We didn't *bill* differently. Or maybe we just wanted to. I know we *told* customers that's what we did ;-). Chuck On Nov 15, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Tim Sylvester wrote: Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
On Nov 15, 2009, at 11:47 PM, jree...@18-30chat.net wrote: Oh my that is insane kw/h pricing. Happen to know what there buy back rates are? Here I pay .07 kw/h with a buy back of .02 kw/h. New York State requires buyback at the same rate as the sell rate. So it'd be .07 kw/h both ways. The utilities hate it of course, but NYS's philosophy is, you've built the grid with guaranteed returns and we need to diversify the supply, so tough. I know they (the utilities) tried to get this changed a few years ago but I don't think they were successful (I haven't been following it lately so maybe it changed and I missed it). Chuck I have thought of doing time rates, but for now I turn down p2p, etc, during peek times and kick it up at off peek. This worked well till the major push over to encrypted connections Tim Sylvester wrote: Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
I switched a farmer to us from Agristar the other night. Satellite internet His number one gripe was that they metered him and once they went over a certain limit they were blocked for 24 hours as punishment. Man, that's severe! Imagine turning a customer totally off for 24 hours!!! Come on, at the extreme just throttle them down, shesh! He mentioned that they allowed full access from something like midnight to whatever but he laughed that off as no one is ever up those times. Most torrent clients have a schedule you can set, I think, allowing full access for P2P during those times. Shouldn't be cumbersome for torrent freaks. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing) It seems to me a long time ago (back in the dial up days), we restricted people from 8 AM to midnight but let them go full out and abuse the heck out of their connection if they so desired from midnight to 8 AM. We didn't *bill* differently. Or maybe we just wanted to. I know we *told* customers that's what we did ;-). Chuck On Nov 15, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Tim Sylvester wrote: Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
Is he completely cut off or restricted to only certain sites/email? Hughes meters during business hours and if one goes over budget then they throttle you to a crawl during the following business hours period. The meter is off during the wee hours. Greg On Nov 21, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Robert West wrote: I switched a farmer to us from Agristar the other night. Satellite internet His number one gripe was that they metered him and once they went over a certain limit they were blocked for 24 hours as punishment. Man, that's severe! Imagine turning a customer totally off for 24 hours!!! Come on, at the extreme just throttle them down, shesh! He mentioned that they allowed full access from something like midnight to whatever but he laughed that off as no one is ever up those times. Most torrent clients have a schedule you can set, I think, allowing full access for P2P during those times. Shouldn't be cumbersome for torrent freaks. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing) It seems to me a long time ago (back in the dial up days), we restricted people from 8 AM to midnight but let them go full out and abuse the heck out of their connection if they so desired from midnight to 8 AM. We didn't *bill* differently. Or maybe we just wanted to. I know we *told* customers that's what we did ;-). Chuck On Nov 15, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Tim Sylvester wrote: Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
He told me he gets Blacked out and the internet doesn't work but he may have had email access but honestly most people in this area use yahoo or gmail so even if they allowed email protocol, they wouldn't use it. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:21 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing) Is he completely cut off or restricted to only certain sites/email? Hughes meters during business hours and if one goes over budget then they throttle you to a crawl during the following business hours period. The meter is off during the wee hours. Greg On Nov 21, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Robert West wrote: I switched a farmer to us from Agristar the other night. Satellite internet His number one gripe was that they metered him and once they went over a certain limit they were blocked for 24 hours as punishment. Man, that's severe! Imagine turning a customer totally off for 24 hours!!! Come on, at the extreme just throttle them down, shesh! He mentioned that they allowed full access from something like midnight to whatever but he laughed that off as no one is ever up those times. Most torrent clients have a schedule you can set, I think, allowing full access for P2P during those times. Shouldn't be cumbersome for torrent freaks. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing) It seems to me a long time ago (back in the dial up days), we restricted people from 8 AM to midnight but let them go full out and abuse the heck out of their connection if they so desired from midnight to 8 AM. We didn't *bill* differently. Or maybe we just wanted to. I know we *told* customers that's what we did ;-). Chuck On Nov 15, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Tim Sylvester wrote: Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
My father in law lives off the grid so he turns off the everything in the house when he is gone... The power is OFF. He got home one day and was throttled by Hughes. W. T. F. and there was no arguing the point with the rep. Man was he ticked. Former AF Colonel.. NEVER swears. He swore a lot that night. ryan On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 6:47 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote: He told me he gets Blacked out and the internet doesn't work but he may have had email access but honestly most people in this area use yahoo or gmail so even if they allowed email protocol, they wouldn't use it. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 9:21 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing) Is he completely cut off or restricted to only certain sites/email? Hughes meters during business hours and if one goes over budget then they throttle you to a crawl during the following business hours period. The meter is off during the wee hours. Greg On Nov 21, 2009, at 9:16 AM, Robert West wrote: I switched a farmer to us from Agristar the other night. Satellite internet His number one gripe was that they metered him and once they went over a certain limit they were blocked for 24 hours as punishment. Man, that's severe! Imagine turning a customer totally off for 24 hours!!! Come on, at the extreme just throttle them down, shesh! He mentioned that they allowed full access from something like midnight to whatever but he laughed that off as no one is ever up those times. Most torrent clients have a schedule you can set, I think, allowing full access for P2P during those times. Shouldn't be cumbersome for torrent freaks. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Bartosch Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2009 7:13 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing) It seems to me a long time ago (back in the dial up days), we restricted people from 8 AM to midnight but let them go full out and abuse the heck out of their connection if they so desired from midnight to 8 AM. We didn't *bill* differently. Or maybe we just wanted to. I know we *told* customers that's what we did ;-). Chuck On Nov 15, 2009, at 6:02 PM, Tim Sylvester wrote: Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
No, they shouldn't. Supply and demand. When you have something relatively few want it, you have to pay the carriers for access. When everyone wants it, either no money is exchanged or they pay you. That's sort of what Net Neutrality is about. Actually, if it were like the phone network, we'd be paying NetFlix because our customers are the ones making the cars. Customer pays you, you pay x carrier, x carrier pays y carrier, y carrier would pay NetFlix. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:25 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
In the early morning kick their PPPoE session from the AP? I'm looking to move to Freeside by the end of the year. Would have already if I didn't go to WWL. I'm actually looking to have someone make a desktop app that shows them how much they've used. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:38 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Rick, did you have a self-serve portal where your customers could check ongoing usage? We are implementing IPtrack, same as Marlon. Brandon will build a self-service portal for us. We are also going to implement something called 'Moonlighting', where we don't count bandwidth from Midnight to 6am in an effort to move some heavy traffic onto the dead period on our network. Makes tiered pricing easier to swallow... What I would really like to do is allow a speed increase at the same time, to give people a taste of our more advanced services. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make that happen in a PPPoE environment without forcing people to disconnect and re-login. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Personally, I wouldn't even think about it. That could get you in steep trouble with Net Neutrality. If you bill extra, bill extra for everything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:12 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I'm totally for metered billing however the customers have all been spoiled with one price access for years now. To not alienate the customer, would it be possible to have the current one price for a particular speed tier with unlimited MB at that speed, set the high use sites down in the list of priority so that they don't suck up the bandwidth during high use times, causing buffering of course, but then offer a Multi Media upgrade package to move their high use sites up in the list of priorities? Or even to kick in an added charge per use of certain sites? Such like, they pay 39 bucks for access but Hulu and Netflix aren't given high priority. They want to use them, add the Multi-Media package for an extra 10 bucks a month or a per use charge, every time they request a download from a listed site they get hit with a $1.00 charge added to their invoice for that day. Not per request, just for the day. Pay the buck, watch Hulu all day, sort of thing. I'm not a script Guru but I've thought about this for awhile. I've also thought if the dead raccoons along the road were placed there by other raccoons to make it look like an accident. I work alone for a reason. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I mostly agree, it was really just a thought. But, to support my argument for I point to the telco agreements where they exchange fees for each others networks. At any rate, it will probably never happen. With that said, the end user always pays, its just a matter of how. I'm just searching for a proper way for them to pay for their services. It just became more difficult in the entitlement mentality world where people think everything should be free. On a positive note, at least bandwidth is getting cheaper. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, I don't think its up to Netflix to pay us. They in turn would have to raise their prices which would further complicate things. We need to make sure we get a fair price from our customers that reflects our costs and hopefully profits. So the customer pays Netflix and us for the movie they downloaded. We are moving very quickly to usage based billing too btw. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com wrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Unlimited water here, it's called a well. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have unlimited water in my home. $40 per month. Travis RickG wrote: For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively slow. Not really an apples to apples comparison. In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too! On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/Emoticon3.gif WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
That unlimited everything plan costs $100 for Sprint and ATT, $140 for Verizon. You can get a basic plan for $30/month. I suppose I could offer unlimited transfer at a given speed if I charged 4x as much. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 3:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Shouldn't be any extra time on billing, tracking, analyzing, the billing system that does all of the other automation in the company should do that as well. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Marlon, With thousands of wireless users, I think our unlimited eat all you want is working quite well. And I can say we have 5 or 6 competitors (DSL, wireless, cable, licensed Wimax, etc.) so there is no monopoly. You are brining in $1k extra per month... but it would be interesting to see how much extra time is being spent on that system... including the billing, phone calls, tracking, analyzing, etc. You would be better off to just upgrade those higher usage customers to a more expensive monthly plan, and stop worrying about billing for overage. You would make more profit each month by doing so. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: http://www.odessaoffice.com/services.html We've done this for years. Brandon Checkalets built the software that we use. We bill on usage. Lowish base price, but relatively high overage fees. We bill out about $1k per month in overages. Our average customer does about 4 gigs per month. We have lost a few customers due to this. But they are net negative customers so I don't mind. After all, there are two main goals in business. One, turn a profit, two, make sure your competition doesn't. Loosing someone that's pulling 20+ gigs per month certainly isn't helping my competition's services at all! We just compare the billing mechanism to things people are already paying as they go. Stuff like gas, food, electricity, cell phone minutes, clothes, water, tires, um, everything else in life! If they are really sharp I'll explain how the all you can eat all of the time only works if there is a monopoly with artificially high prices for everyone else. marlon - Original Message - From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Personally, I don't consider anything outside of Sprint, Verizon, and ATT a cell phone company. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:41 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing No, my unlimited cell phone plan is only $35/mo (Cricket). I did have to buy the phone though, ($50). On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: Unlimited cell phone? I don't buy it There's a limit, there always is. Also, is your unlimited cell phone program only $40 or $50 per month? If I could get the same $100 to $300 per month for internet that people often pay the cell companies I'd be able to sell them a LOT more service for the same price they are paying now. I could also put in much better hardware. Lets see, 600 subs at an average of $37 per month is $22,200 per month. 600 subs at an average of $150 per month is $90,000 per month (and the same number of people needed). http://www.wirefly.com/learn/wireless_news/jd-power-analyzes-average-cell-phone-bill/ According to JD Power the average cell bill is $77 per month. So 600 subs at an average of $77 per month is $46,200. Still much nicer than my current $27 per month :-). How did we end up in this situation? grin marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Daily, maybe even hourly bandwidth web based usage history and a running meter down in the system tray? Then they can yell at the kid for using 5 gigs in the afternoon, who cares if he was there to use it or not Just like he left the TV on and it used power for two hours. They get billed either way. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:00 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM? Then mom and dad decide to rent a movie. To me, I am counting on over-selling the bandwidth and that is where the profit is. My dynamic is changing and the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than normal. I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing. I have heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing tiered and/or metered? The questions still stand. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 Fat-fingered from my phone! On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Wow, I'm at $160 for more minutes with Sprint on 4 phones and I have full data on one of them. Though with cell carriers, all have their good and bad coverage areas. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:09 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to trim it; I can't. Four phones, national plan, unlimited texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per month, or about $60.00 per phone. I view that as obscene, but also feel somewhat trapped. Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside. We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network every month. If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air. My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total monthly costs. Maybe it is time to rethink the whole paradigm. Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to do the same thing, or I'd lose customers. I tried a tiered service once. My basic contract says 512 kbps. I let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the moment. If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets. When I tried to sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers. Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty users. The business customers pay more and expect that to be the case. There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural residential users. Mike At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Would be nice if we choose what post to reply to especially when the post is. 7+ days old to begin with and been discussed in detail over that time. Especially when input is just personal opinion and not a solution to a problem. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:06:47 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Shouldn't be any extra time on billing, tracking, analyzing, the billing system that does all of the other automation in the company should do that as well. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Marlon, With thousands of wireless users, I think our unlimited eat all you want is working quite well. And I can say we have 5 or 6 competitors (DSL, wireless, cable, licensed Wimax, etc.) so there is no monopoly. You are brining in $1k extra per month... but it would be interesting to see how much extra time is being spent on that system... including the billing, phone calls, tracking, analyzing, etc. You would be better off to just upgrade those higher usage customers to a more expensive monthly plan, and stop worrying about billing for overage. You would make more profit each month by doing so. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: http://www.odessaoffice.com/services.html We've done this for years. Brandon Checkalets built the software that we use. We bill on usage. Lowish base price, but relatively high overage fees. We bill out about $1k per month in overages. Our average customer does about 4 gigs per month. We have lost a few customers due to this. But they are net negative customers so I don't mind. After all, there are two main goals in business. One, turn a profit, two, make sure your competition doesn't. Loosing someone that's pulling 20+ gigs per month certainly isn't helping my competition's services at all! We just compare the billing mechanism to things people are already paying as they go. Stuff like gas, food, electricity, cell phone minutes, clothes, water, tires, um, everything else in life! If they are really sharp I'll explain how the all you can eat all of the time only works if there is a monopoly with artificially high prices for everyone else. marlon - Original Message - From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
This is pretty easy to do. I had a small app I tried out a few years ago. It would test a connection out and do a few link diagnostics. It also checked a webserver and would display notices, etc, for reporting downtime, repair schedules and what not. Overall, it was not much of a hit with people. I have toyed with the idea of bring it back and adding twitter updates and the likes. It would be pretty easy to add a bw/$ display to it, depending on the bw manager setup. I can see about rustling it up again. Mike Hammett wrote: Daily, maybe even hourly bandwidth web based usage history and a running meter down in the system tray? Then they can yell at the kid for using 5 gigs in the afternoon, who cares if he was there to use it or not Just like he left the TV on and it used power for two hours. They get billed either way. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:00 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM? Then mom and dad decide to rent a movie. To me, I am counting on over-selling the bandwidth and that is where the profit is. My dynamic is changing and the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than normal. I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing. I have heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing tiered and/or metered? The questions still stand. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 Fat-fingered from my phone! On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
That is something the promotions committee is working on. Member only vendor provided webinars, vendor discounts, etc. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:07 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing WISPA appears to be American WISP-centric Ralph. How many members are based outside the USA? What does WISPA do for non-American WISPs other than run a very good public mailing list that provides some decent discussion on the business in general terms? Please take a look at the WISPA web site and list 1 thing on it that is of specific benefit for a WISP outside the US? What percentage of WISPA membership dues are spent on efforts to influence the FCC? I'm not saying any of this is bad, just that the value equation is not the same if you are not based in the US. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Wisps is wisp-centric. There is no excuse not to support your organization. On Nov 8, 2009, at 4:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote: Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
And it's going to run on every computer at their house? I currently have 5 computers at my house, and they call get used all the time. ;) Travis Microserv jree...@18-30chat.net wrote: This is pretty easy to do. I had a small app I tried out a few years ago. It would test a connection out and do a few link diagnostics. It also checked a webserver and would display notices, etc, for reporting downtime, repair schedules and what not. Overall, it was not much of a hit with people. I have toyed with the idea of bring it back and adding twitter updates and the likes. It would be pretty easy to add a bw/$ display to it, depending on the bw manager setup. I can see about rustling it up again. Mike Hammett wrote: Daily, maybe even hourly bandwidth web based usage history and a running meter down in the system tray? Then they can yell at the kid for using 5 gigs in the afternoon, who cares if he was there to use it or not Just like he left the TV on and it used power for two hours. They get billed either way. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Eric Rogers" ecrog...@precisionds.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:00 AM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM? Then mom and dad decide to rent a movie. To me, I am counting on over-selling the bandwidth and that is where the profit is. My dynamic is changing and the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than normal. I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing. I have heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing tiered and/or metered? The questions still stand. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 Fat-fingered from my phone! On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, "Jayson Baker" jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. "normal use") you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or p
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Agreed. Those that are just now catching up with their list reading should start with the most recent posts and read backwards if they feel inclined to do so. Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of e...@wisp-router.com Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:27 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Would be nice if we choose what post to reply to especially when the post is. 7+ days old to begin with and been discussed in detail over that time. Especially when input is just personal opinion and not a solution to a problem. /Eje Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:06:47 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Shouldn't be any extra time on billing, tracking, analyzing, the billing system that does all of the other automation in the company should do that as well. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Marlon, With thousands of wireless users, I think our unlimited eat all you want is working quite well. And I can say we have 5 or 6 competitors (DSL, wireless, cable, licensed Wimax, etc.) so there is no monopoly. You are brining in $1k extra per month... but it would be interesting to see how much extra time is being spent on that system... including the billing, phone calls, tracking, analyzing, etc. You would be better off to just upgrade those higher usage customers to a more expensive monthly plan, and stop worrying about billing for overage. You would make more profit each month by doing so. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: http://www.odessaoffice.com/services.html We've done this for years. Brandon Checkalets built the software that we use. We bill on usage. Lowish base price, but relatively high overage fees. We bill out about $1k per month in overages. Our average customer does about 4 gigs per month. We have lost a few customers due to this. But they are net negative customers so I don't mind. After all, there are two main goals in business. One, turn a profit, two, make sure your competition doesn't. Loosing someone that's pulling 20+ gigs per month certainly isn't helping my competition's services at all! We just compare the billing mechanism to things people are already paying as they go. Stuff like gas, food, electricity, cell phone minutes, clothes, water, tires, um, everything else in life! If they are really sharp I'll explain how the all you can eat all of the time only works if there is a monopoly with artificially high prices for everyone else. marlon - Original Message - From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Mikrotik, StarOS, UBNT? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Chuck Profito cprof...@cv-access.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:35 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing AJ. I assume you are a wireless isp. My question, what equipment are you using to provide 15 mg bursting to 20 meg for 60 bucks a month? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of AJ Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:29 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing As one of those big guys... We have tiers for data usage both on a Daily and a Monthly rate. For our base line customers on a $25 a month plan, it's 1.5 meg down with 1GB total per month bandwidth; 8 bucks a gig beyond that up to 5 gigs, everything beyond that is covered at a max $70 cap... Designed for VERY LOW USE users only... Grandma with email... That's about it... Rest of the plans go $40, 50 and 60/mo for 5, 10 and 15 meg connections... 15 meg is burstable to 20 meg if bandwidth is available (usually 11 pm to 10 am local time) Speeds are max rated; if a user exceeds 2,5 GB, 4.5 GB or 11 GB for each plan respectively during the high use period (noon to midnight local time 7 days a week), we throttle them down to standard minimum speeds (2.5, 5 6 meg). We don't bill beyond that, just slow them down so they don't snag the rest of the network. Our abusers are profiled as 3 GB combined up/down bandwidth on the 5 meg plan of 5 GB on the 10 meg plan for more than 15 days out of the billing month... We chat with them and usually move them up to the next tier... For the 12 meg customers, there is no monthly bandwidth cap. So overall, it works out to about 50 GB monthly on our $40 plan and about 70 GB on our $50 plan... Anything beyond that and we discuss with the customer their options... We have a completely separate tier of business plans with much higher bandwidth quotas available at prices that meet the cost of providing the services... It's more geared to keep that 10% of customers from using their services at home for a business (against the AUP); not completely against reasonable use, we just gear the business class service with a matching SLA and bandwidth quota to meet their needs... Can't afford to give everything away... As much as customers EXPECT it, the free market gets to tell us the need, however, they're not granted the right to make demands and threats... Don't like it? Plenty of other options out there... We're the right product for about 75% of our customers... We go out of our way to avoid getting that other 25% Either we're too much service for their needs or way too little... One size does not fit all... On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:02 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Chuck, That's the point. The consumer is NOT paying for excessive bandwidth use. When bandwidth runs us over $100/meg and one customer uses $300's worth for $50/month there is something wrong. The unlimited bandwidth model only works when you can oversubscribe the bandwidth. With bandwidth usage climbing exponentially, the model will soon break. Furthermore, some educated consumers are finally realizing that they are subsidizing the bandwidth hogs. They ask how is that fair? As far as my Netflix idea, I agree my original idea is probably not a good solution. I was also a GM at a cable company and maybe we should use them as a template? HBO, and the other premium channels charge the cable cos for the customer's usage which we passed on to the customer for a profit. Both HBO and the cable co makes money and everyone wins. Really, I'm just kicking around ideas because something has to happen. I'm not saying I have the right ideas. As far as the phone companies, AFAIK the LECS still have an exchange rates for calls that terminate on another network. It's just transparent to the end users. At any rate, this discussion is much needed. Thanks to all on this list for their ingenuity which makes this the best business field to be in (IMHO)! -RickG On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote: On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:25 PM, RickG wrote: In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Only the ones where they'd care about being informed in semi real time of what their bill will be. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 4:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing And it's going to run on every computer at their house? I currently have 5 computers at my house, and they call get used all the time. ;) Travis Microserv jree...@18-30chat.net wrote: This is pretty easy to do. I had a small app I tried out a few years ago. It would test a connection out and do a few link diagnostics. It also checked a webserver and would display notices, etc, for reporting downtime, repair schedules and what not. Overall, it was not much of a hit with people. I have toyed with the idea of bring it back and adding twitter updates and the likes. It would be pretty easy to add a bw/$ display to it, depending on the bw manager setup. I can see about rustling it up again. Mike Hammett wrote: Daily, maybe even hourly bandwidth web based usage history and a running meter down in the system tray? Then they can yell at the kid for using 5 gigs in the afternoon, who cares if he was there to use it or not Just like he left the TV on and it used power for two hours. They get billed either way. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:00 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM? Then mom and dad decide to rent a movie. To me, I am counting on over-selling the bandwidth and that is where the profit is. My dynamic is changing and the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than normal. I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing. I have heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing tiered and/or metered? The questions still stand. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 Fat-fingered from my phone! On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
More and more power companies are starting to do that. The electric grid has a lot of the same issues we face, though not at as high of a rate. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tim Sylvester t...@avanzarnetworks.com Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:02 PM To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing) Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
Yes, in my mind, that's is another component of metered billing: 1) Bill by the bit. 2) Bill for premiumbits based upon prioirity. 3) Bill for premium time. Of course, the trick is having the proper billing package to pull it off. -RickG On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Tim Sylvester t...@avanzarnetworks.comwrote: Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing (time of use billing)
Oh my that is insane kw/h pricing. Happen to know what there buy back rates are? Here I pay .07 kw/h with a buy back of .02 kw/h. I have thought of doing time rates, but for now I turn down p2p, etc, during peek times and kick it up at off peek. This worked well till the major push over to encrypted connections Tim Sylvester wrote: Talking about electric billing in this thread made me think of time-of-use billing and tiered billing rate schedules for electrical usage. PGE has multiple rate schedules. The standard consumer rate schedule starts at $0.115 per KWh and grows to $0.44 per KWh for usage over 300% of the baseline. They also have time-of-use billing schedules which start at $0.087 per KWh during off-peak times in the summer and move up to $0.297 per KWh during peak times. Has anyone considered tiered usage billing or time-of-use billing for Internet access? It would be complicated to implement and also difficult to explain to customers. If Bit Torrent users are the biggest consumers of bandwidth on a network you could benefit by encouraging them to use the network during off hours. Tim WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:25 PM, RickG wrote: In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? I do not see why they (Netflix) should, no. The consumer is already paying you for it. Netflix is not another ISP. It's a phone call. My phone company does not charge my local hardware store for calling them if they are with a different phone company any more than it charges my mom when I call her back in Minnesota (I live in New York). My *mom's* phone company might charge her for the the call, depending on the plan, but that's about as far as it goes. The provider idea could bite us hard. Note that originally the settlement fees were demanded by the established phone companies to mild the upstart cell companies for revenues. They weren't smart when they started those agreements and it came back to bite them later when CLECs exploited the ideas in novel ways with the advent of the Internet where you could guarantee certain incoming-only calls. But they aren't going to be so stupid as to not think of those loop holes a second time ;-). Chuck -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Actually, that is not what Rick was suggesting as I understood it. At one level he's saying he should be able to charge the company who is NOT in his service territory for responding to a customer enquiry (looking at a web page, downloading a movie). Your cell company charges *you* for your minutes, not the person you're calling. The person you're calling might, or might not, be charged for your call, but your cell company cannot charge them unless it's the same cell company. Rick's other argument (in parenthesis) was that we should charge the local ISP that hosts the business (say Netflix). Though that might be possible I'd sure hate to start getting bills from Verizon because one of my customers hosts a web site that is popular with Verizon customers. I don't see anything good coming out of that ;-). Chuck On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:25 PM, Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
On Nov 7, 2009, at 9:35 PM, RickG wrote: For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively slow. Not really an apples to apples comparison. In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too! Ah, but information wants to be free! See, we can all trade quips grin! Chuck On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/ wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
If it is free you can have ALL the business! Ah, but information wants to be free! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Chuck, That's the point. The consumer is NOT paying for excessive bandwidth use. When bandwidth runs us over $100/meg and one customer uses $300's worth for $50/month there is something wrong. The unlimited bandwidth model only works when you can oversubscribe the bandwidth. With bandwidth usage climbing exponentially, the model will soon break. Furthermore, some educated consumers are finally realizing that they are subsidizing the bandwidth hogs. They ask how is that fair? As far as my Netflix idea, I agree my original idea is probably not a good solution. I was also a GM at a cable company and maybe we should use them as a template? HBO, and the other premium channels charge the cable cos for the customer's usage which we passed on to the customer for a profit. Both HBO and the cable co makes money and everyone wins. Really, I'm just kicking around ideas because something has to happen. I'm not saying I have the right ideas. As far as the phone companies, AFAIK the LECS still have an exchange rates for calls that terminate on another network. It's just transparent to the end users. At any rate, this discussion is much needed. Thanks to all on this list for their ingenuity which makes this the best business field to be in (IMHO)! -RickG On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote: On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:25 PM, RickG wrote: In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? I do not see why they (Netflix) should, no. The consumer is already paying you for it. Netflix is not another ISP. It's a phone call. My phone company does not charge my local hardware store for calling them if they are with a different phone company any more than it charges my mom when I call her back in Minnesota (I live in New York). My *mom's* phone company might charge her for the the call, depending on the plan, but that's about as far as it goes. The provider idea could bite us hard. Note that originally the settlement fees were demanded by the established phone companies to mild the upstart cell companies for revenues. They weren't smart when they started those agreements and it came back to bite them later when CLECs exploited the ideas in novel ways with the advent of the Internet where you could guarantee certain incoming-only calls. But they aren't going to be so stupid as to not think of those loop holes a second time ;-). Chuck -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
LOL, All in good fun! To be clear, I really dont want free electricity, gas, or water because you get what you pay for every time. On the serious side, i disagree with your statement. Some information wants or needs to be free. Especially public domain info such is how to get your drivers license, or info on the nearest state park, etc. But on the other hand, proprietary information should not be free. Such as Coca-Colas recipe or make Pyrex dishes. Contrary to the recent generations thought process that everything should be free - that model doesnt not work in a capitalist environment. We are still capitalist arent we? -RickG On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote: On Nov 7, 2009, at 9:35 PM, RickG wrote: For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively slow. Not really an apples to apples comparison. In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too! Ah, but information wants to be free! See, we can all trade quips grin! Chuck On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/ wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
. Note that originally the settlement fees were demanded by the established phone companies to mild the upstart cell companies for revenues. They weren't smart when they started those agreements and it came back to bite them later when CLECs exploited the ideas in novel ways with the advent of the Internet where you could guarantee certain incoming-only calls. But they aren't going to be so stupid as to not think of those loop holes a second time ;-). Chuck -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
On Nov 8, 2009, at 2:54 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: LOL Lets be honest here. At 380 foot well isn't free. The electricity to pump the water isn't free either. So is the electricity needed to run your computer to get the Internet or for your phone if you have an unlimited local calling plan. That's hardly a relevant point as to whether the service is free or unlimited or not. Lots of dead trees means a chain saw, splitter, WORK etc. Also not free. Sheesh, it costs me gas to get to the free lunch and I had to lift my fork to my face. Does that mean it wasn't free? poke Chuck The natural gas isn't free either. You had to pay for the chili! grin marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have unlimited water; 380 foot well. Unlimited heat; lots of dead trees. Working on the unlimited electricity thing. There is unlimited natural gas on this list. Mike At 10:53 PM 11/7/2009, you wrote: I have unlimited water in my home. $40 per month. Travis RickG wrote: For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively slow. Not really an apples to apples comparison. In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too! On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson mailto:t...@ida.nett...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http:// lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelesshttp:// lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http:// lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelesshttp:// lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http:// lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
On Nov 12, 2009, at 2:02 PM, RickG wrote: Chuck, That's the point. The consumer is NOT paying for excessive bandwidth use. When bandwidth runs us over $100/meg and one customer uses $300's worth for $50/month there is something wrong. Right, but if that's the case you either charge them or lose the customer (on purpose I mean). You don't try to charge the organization they are downloading from. The unlimited bandwidth model only works when you can oversubscribe the bandwidth. With bandwidth usage climbing exponentially, the model will soon break. Furthermore, some educated consumers are finally realizing that they are subsidizing the bandwidth hogs. They ask how is that fair? As far as my Netflix idea, I agree my original idea is probably not a good solution. Yep, that's what I was trying to say. I know you're just batting ideas around, which is always healthy. Chuck I was also a GM at a cable company and maybe we should use them as a template? HBO, and the other premium channels charge the cable cos for the customer's usage which we passed on to the customer for a profit. Both HBO and the cable co makes money and everyone wins. Really, I'm just kicking around ideas because something has to happen. I'm not saying I have the right ideas. As far as the phone companies, AFAIK the LECS still have an exchange rates for calls that terminate on another network. It's just transparent to the end users. At any rate, this discussion is much needed. Thanks to all on this list for their ingenuity which makes this the best business field to be in (IMHO)! -RickG On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote: On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:25 PM, RickG wrote: In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? I do not see why they (Netflix) should, no. The consumer is already paying you for it. Netflix is not another ISP. It's a phone call. My phone company does not charge my local hardware store for calling them if they are with a different phone company any more than it charges my mom when I call her back in Minnesota (I live in New York). My *mom's* phone company might charge her for the the call, depending on the plan, but that's about as far as it goes. The provider idea could bite us hard. Note that originally the settlement fees were demanded by the established phone companies to mild the upstart cell companies for revenues. They weren't smart when they started those agreements and it came back to bite them later when CLECs exploited the ideas in novel ways with the advent of the Internet where you could guarantee certain incoming-only calls. But they aren't going to be so stupid as to not think of those loop holes a second time ;-). Chuck -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
On Nov 12, 2009, at 2:14 PM, RickG wrote: LOL, All in good fun! To be clear, I really dont want free electricity, gas, or water because you get what you pay for every time. On the serious side, i disagree with your statement. Really, it's just a quote, not a statement by me per se. I don't agree with it entirely either-though the meaning is that the replication cost for information has gone to nearly zero with modern technology. Chuck Some information wants or needs to be free. Especially public domain info such is how to get your drivers license, or info on the nearest state park, etc. But on the other hand, proprietary information should not be free. Such as Coca-Colas recipe or make Pyrex dishes. Contrary to the recent generations thought process that everything should be free - that model doesnt not work in a capitalist environment. We are still capitalist arent we? -RickG On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:14 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote: On Nov 7, 2009, at 9:35 PM, RickG wrote: For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively slow. Not really an apples to apples comparison. In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too! Ah, but information wants to be free! See, we can all trade quips grin! Chuck On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/ wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Chuck Bartosch Clarity Connect, Inc. 200 Pleasant Grove Road Ithaca, NY 14850 (607) 257-8268 When the stars threw down their spears, and water'd heaven with their tears, Did He smile, His work to see? Did He who made the Lamb make thee? From William Blake's Tiger!, Tiger! WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
AJ. I assume you are a wireless isp. My question, what equipment are you using to provide 15 mg bursting to 20 meg for 60 bucks a month? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of AJ Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 11:29 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing As one of those big guys... We have tiers for data usage both on a Daily and a Monthly rate. For our base line customers on a $25 a month plan, it's 1.5 meg down with 1GB total per month bandwidth; 8 bucks a gig beyond that up to 5 gigs, everything beyond that is covered at a max $70 cap... Designed for VERY LOW USE users only... Grandma with email... That's about it... Rest of the plans go $40, 50 and 60/mo for 5, 10 and 15 meg connections... 15 meg is burstable to 20 meg if bandwidth is available (usually 11 pm to 10 am local time) Speeds are max rated; if a user exceeds 2,5 GB, 4.5 GB or 11 GB for each plan respectively during the high use period (noon to midnight local time 7 days a week), we throttle them down to standard minimum speeds (2.5, 5 6 meg). We don't bill beyond that, just slow them down so they don't snag the rest of the network. Our abusers are profiled as 3 GB combined up/down bandwidth on the 5 meg plan of 5 GB on the 10 meg plan for more than 15 days out of the billing month... We chat with them and usually move them up to the next tier... For the 12 meg customers, there is no monthly bandwidth cap. So overall, it works out to about 50 GB monthly on our $40 plan and about 70 GB on our $50 plan... Anything beyond that and we discuss with the customer their options... We have a completely separate tier of business plans with much higher bandwidth quotas available at prices that meet the cost of providing the services... It's more geared to keep that 10% of customers from using their services at home for a business (against the AUP); not completely against reasonable use, we just gear the business class service with a matching SLA and bandwidth quota to meet their needs... Can't afford to give everything away... As much as customers EXPECT it, the free market gets to tell us the need, however, they're not granted the right to make demands and threats... Don't like it? Plenty of other options out there... We're the right product for about 75% of our customers... We go out of our way to avoid getting that other 25% Either we're too much service for their needs or way too little... One size does not fit all... On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:02 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Chuck, That's the point. The consumer is NOT paying for excessive bandwidth use. When bandwidth runs us over $100/meg and one customer uses $300's worth for $50/month there is something wrong. The unlimited bandwidth model only works when you can oversubscribe the bandwidth. With bandwidth usage climbing exponentially, the model will soon break. Furthermore, some educated consumers are finally realizing that they are subsidizing the bandwidth hogs. They ask how is that fair? As far as my Netflix idea, I agree my original idea is probably not a good solution. I was also a GM at a cable company and maybe we should use them as a template? HBO, and the other premium channels charge the cable cos for the customer's usage which we passed on to the customer for a profit. Both HBO and the cable co makes money and everyone wins. Really, I'm just kicking around ideas because something has to happen. I'm not saying I have the right ideas. As far as the phone companies, AFAIK the LECS still have an exchange rates for calls that terminate on another network. It's just transparent to the end users. At any rate, this discussion is much needed. Thanks to all on this list for their ingenuity which makes this the best business field to be in (IMHO)! -RickG On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Chuck Bartosch ch...@clarityconnect.comwrote: On Nov 7, 2009, at 2:25 PM, RickG wrote: In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? I do not see why they (Netflix) should, no. The consumer is already paying you for it. Netflix is not another ISP. It's a phone call. My phone company does
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Canada. Ontario specifically. We have a lot of overlap in equipment and bands, but very little overlap in regulatory affairs. 3.65 and 5.4 are the only areas that are somewhat similar that have come up for rulemaking recently (at least that I recall). TV whitespace is completely different, and we have access to 3.5 as a licensed band too. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing What country are you in George? marlon - Original Message - From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I would say that we are a little higher usage. I'll have to run the numbers, but for an example, my top user right now is pulling on average 5GB per day this month alone. The next 1% are 2-3G/Day and the next 2 or 3% are at the 1G/day mark. So definitely the top 5% are the big bandwidth hogs. Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marco Coelho Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 6:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Here's some quick numbers off my network: for the last 8 days 71% of customers downloaded less than 1 GByte of Data. The top 10% all exceeded 2 GB The top 5% all exceeded 4.4 GB The top 1% exceeded 10 GB Marco On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote: Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one more way we can advertise and win against them.  Tired of counting your bits and bytes?  We're unlimited  Look at Cricket wireless--they've
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
But see that is the point Travis. I would have no problem with a client with 5 computers paying me $165 /month for unlimited service. But the customers want to download 65Gb a month for $39.99. Shoot at my office I have a well and Pump so I get free water. It cost $6,000.00 to put it in. But since I am on city sewer I had to put a meter on MY well to pay for the amount of water dumped into their sewer. NOTHING IS FREE and UNLIMITED here. I pay for metered electric, gas, phone, sewer, and backhaul from my provider. I expect it, why shouldn't my customers. I will be going to Metered billing for overages as stipulated in my AUP. I am just having a problem determining what will be my Limit per package. Like my $39.99 gets 10 Gig and my $59.99 package gets 20 Gig and a Unlimited Package for $89. I don't know what is Fair(yet). Verizon Wireless in our area gives 5 Gb/month and $.10 Mb for overages. That's $102 per Gig I was thinking more like $10/gig overage. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Servicehttp://www.rcwifi.com/ Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 12:04 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Wow... Verizon is screwing you... my family has 5 lines, 1200 minutes shared (national with carryover), unlimited text mesages and pics and I pay $165 per month total (including all taxes, surcharges, etc.). That's with ATT even. Travis Microserv Mike wrote: There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to trim it; I can't. Four phones, national plan, unlimited texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per month, or about $60.00 per phone. I view that as obscene, but also feel somewhat trapped. Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside. We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network every month. If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air. My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total monthly costs. Maybe it is time to rethink the whole paradigm. Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to do the same thing, or I'd lose customers. I tried a tiered service once. My basic contract says 512 kbps. I let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the moment. If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets. When I tried to sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers. Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty users. The business customers pay more and expect that to be the case. There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural residential users. Mike At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.commailto:rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.commailto:jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I would say that pricing is fair. But I think on your website it should say Unlimited* Note the asterisk. If your using that 10Mb/s all day long 24/7, then that is dedicated bandwidth and you'll be charged accordingly. There is a data center in orlando, and on there dedicated servers you get like 2tb a month, with a $75/mb overage fee :| Nick Olsen Brevard Wireless (321) 205-1100 x106 From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:40 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing But see that is the point Travis. I would have no problem with a client with 5 computers paying me $165 /month for unlimited service. But the customers want to download 65Gb a month for $39.99. Shoot at my office I have a well and Pump so I get free water. It cost $6,000.00 to put it in. But since I am on city sewer I had to put a meter on MY well to pay for the amount of water dumped into their sewer. NOTHING IS FREE and UNLIMITED here. I pay for metered electric, gas, phone, sewer, and backhaul from my provider. I expect it, why shouldn't my customers. I will be going to Metered billing for overages as stipulated in my AUP. I am just having a problem determining what will be my Limit per package. Like my $39.99 gets 10 Gig and my $59.99 package gets 20 Gig and a Unlimited Package for $89. I don't know what is Fair(yet). Verizon Wireless in our area gives 5 Gb/month and $.10 Mb for overages. That's $102 per Gig I was thinking more like $10/gig overage. Steve Barnes RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Servicehttp://www.rcwifi.com/ Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired, and success achieved. - Helen Keller From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 12:04 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Wow... Verizon is screwing you... my family has 5 lines, 1200 minutes shared (national with carryover), unlimited text mesages and pics and I pay $165 per month total (including all taxes, surcharges, etc.). That's with ATT even. Travis Microserv Mike wrote: There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to trim it; I can't. Four phones, national plan, unlimited texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per month, or about $60.00 per phone. I view that as obscene, but also feel somewhat trapped. Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside. We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network every month. If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air. My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total monthly costs. Maybe it is time to rethink the whole paradigm. Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to do the same thing, or I'd lose customers. I tried a tiered service once. My basic contract says 512 kbps. I let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the moment. If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets. When I tried to sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers. Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty users. The business customers pay more and expect that to be the case. There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural residential users. Mike At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.commailto:rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
When I setup metering for the colo I used to work for we bought in $15k in overages a month. It was great! Ryan On Nov 7, 2009, at 10:59 AM, Scott Reed scottr...@onlyinternet.net wrote: With the proper setup the network complexity does not change. Why would I want to give up additional revenue? Travis Johnson wrote: 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.53/2486 - Release Date: 11/07/09 07:38:00 -- Scott Reed Sr. Systems Engineer GAB Midwest 1-800-363-1544 x4000 Cell: 260-273-7239 --- --- --- --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- --- --- --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
We spend about a day on admin of the program. Per month. So about $100. The problem out here is that we also have a ton of competition. And VERY rural markets. And LOT of spectrum competition. We can OFFER all of the higher grade services in the world, but we can't deliver them Plus people out here don't value internet that highly. We have some competition that does speed tiers, we're pulling customers from them almost as fast as we're pulling them from the sat. companies. We just can't physically offer higher speeds to folks. I've really toyed with the idea of trying to combine the two ideas. Speed and usage limits per customer. Yet every time I see someone try to limit speeds teh bandwidth to support that customer actually goes up. Out here the PUD that we buy access from used to sell 100 meg pipes, even though we were billed for 10 megs (don't ask). One month they actually turned on the throttling. Our upstream costs INCREASED by 10 or 20%. Even though we dropped our incoming speed by 90%. marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Marlon, With thousands of wireless users, I think our unlimited eat all you want is working quite well. And I can say we have 5 or 6 competitors (DSL, wireless, cable, licensed Wimax, etc.) so there is no monopoly. You are brining in $1k extra per month... but it would be interesting to see how much extra time is being spent on that system... including the billing, phone calls, tracking, analyzing, etc. You would be better off to just upgrade those higher usage customers to a more expensive monthly plan, and stop worrying about billing for overage. You would make more profit each month by doing so. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: http://www.odessaoffice.com/services.html We've done this for years. Brandon Checkalets built the software that we use. We bill on usage. Lowish base price, but relatively high overage fees. We bill out about $1k per month in overages. Our average customer does about 4 gigs per month. We have lost a few customers due to this. But they are net negative customers so I don't mind. After all, there are two main goals in business. One, turn a profit, two, make sure your competition doesn't. Loosing someone that's pulling 20+ gigs per month certainly isn't helping my competition's services at all! We just compare the billing mechanism to things people are already paying as they go. Stuff like gas, food, electricity, cell phone minutes, clothes, water, tires, um, everything else in life! If they are really sharp I'll explain how the all you can eat all of the time only works if there is a monopoly with artificially high prices for everyone else. marlon - Original Message - From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Are you suggesting some sort of metric to say they are over-using service and to move to a higher usage service? We have been All you can eat for years but we are at a point where demand is driving upgrades. I have always called the customer that used double what the norm was and explained that we are a small company and that we are doing this because there are no other options...don't abuse it. We are currently switching out equipment on busy towers because of the traffic we are seeing. Now business wise, it was probably my mistake or underestimation that I chose it, but it served a purpose and made money. I have been looking at the explosive growth of technology and for me to replace equipment every time something changes, or a better product comes out, that doesn't make any financial sense because we will never make money. If busy towers have overage charges, that drives extra revenue that can be used directly for the benefit of all customers. (that's my logic) Look at the cellular industry. They were metered...$XX dollars for YY minutes and $.ZZ for overage fees. They then created a Unlimited plan that is double if not triple the cost. It is still a tiered plan and that is totally an option. My thoughts are the following: $30/mo 768K ...Cap of 20 Gig $40/mo 1.5M ...Cap of 40 Gig $50/mo 3.0M ...Cap of 60 Gig $150/mo 3.0M ...Unlimited $1/Gig overage fee AND any previous plan will not exceed the $150 cap. If the plans won't touch 95% of the customers, there is no threat. It is those that are bandwidth hogs that are usually the ones that will drop you or complain. Plus, it will allow the customer to chose to move up as you suggested, to a faster/higher cap plan. Eric From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Marlon, With thousands of wireless users, I think our unlimited eat all you want is working quite well. And I can say we have 5 or 6 competitors (DSL, wireless, cable, licensed Wimax, etc.) so there is no monopoly. You are brining in $1k extra per month... but it would be interesting to see how much extra time is being spent on that system... including the billing, phone calls, tracking, analyzing, etc. You would be better off to just upgrade those higher usage customers to a more expensive monthly plan, and stop worrying about billing for overage. You would make more profit each month by doing so. Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer wrote: http://www.odessaoffice.com/services.html We've done this for years. Brandon Checkalets built the software that we use. We bill on usage. Lowish base price, but relatively high overage fees. We bill out about $1k per month in overages. Our average customer does about 4 gigs per month. We have lost a few customers due to this. But they are net negative customers so I don't mind. After all, there are two main goals in business. One, turn a profit, two, make sure your competition doesn't. Loosing someone that's pulling 20+ gigs per month certainly isn't helping my competition's services at all! We just compare the billing mechanism to things people are already paying as they go. Stuff like gas, food, electricity, cell phone minutes, clothes, water, tires, um, everything else in life! If they are really sharp I'll explain how the all you can eat all of the time only works if there is a monopoly with artificially high prices for everyone else. marlon - Original Message - From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com mailto:ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
To interject a bit... Cricket is unlimited everything... that is actually how they market. They keep costs low by really only building in metropolitan areas and not subsidizing cell phone purchases (so all of their phones are crap). My wife has their service because a plan that meets her talk time and text requirements from other carriers would be at least $100 more a month. But the downside is their service is crap IMHO... half the time when I try to call her she is not getting good reception :-) In a way though, they get the users no one else would want. Users that will not sign contracts (read... plenty of illegal's who can't pass a credit check) and heavy users... like my wife. I'd rather be a Verizon than a Cricket as a WISP anyday :-D Daniel White 3-dB Networks http://www.3dbnetworks.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:51 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Unlimited cell phone? I don't buy it There's a limit, there always is. Also, is your unlimited cell phone program only $40 or $50 per month? If I could get the same $100 to $300 per month for internet that people often pay the cell companies I'd be able to sell them a LOT more service for the same price they are paying now. I could also put in much better hardware. Lets see, 600 subs at an average of $37 per month is $22,200 per month. 600 subs at an average of $150 per month is $90,000 per month (and the same number of people needed). http://www.wirefly.com/learn/wireless_news/jd-power-analyzes-average-cell-ph one-bill/ According to JD Power the average cell bill is $77 per month. So 600 subs at an average of $77 per month is $46,200. Still much nicer than my current $27 per month :-). How did we end up in this situation? grin marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
No, my unlimited cell phone plan is only $35/mo (Cricket). I did have to buy the phone though, ($50). On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: Unlimited cell phone? I don't buy it There's a limit, there always is. Also, is your unlimited cell phone program only $40 or $50 per month? If I could get the same $100 to $300 per month for internet that people often pay the cell companies I'd be able to sell them a LOT more service for the same price they are paying now. I could also put in much better hardware. Lets see, 600 subs at an average of $37 per month is $22,200 per month. 600 subs at an average of $150 per month is $90,000 per month (and the same number of people needed). http://www.wirefly.com/learn/wireless_news/jd-power-analyzes-average-cell-phone-bill/ According to JD Power the average cell bill is $77 per month. So 600 subs at an average of $77 per month is $46,200. Still much nicer than my current $27 per month :-). How did we end up in this situation? grin marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM? Then mom and dad decide to rent a movie. To me, I am counting on over-selling the bandwidth and that is where the profit is. My dynamic is changing and the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than normal. I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing. I have heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing tiered and/or metered? The questions still stand. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 Fat-fingered from my phone! On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. --- --- --- ---
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to trim it; I can't. Four phones, national plan, unlimited texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per month, or about $60.00 per phone. I view that as obscene, but also feel somewhat trapped. Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside. We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network every month. If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air. My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total monthly costs. Maybe it is time to rethink the whole paradigm. Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to do the same thing, or I'd lose customers. I tried a tiered service once. My basic contract says 512 kbps. I let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the moment. If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets. When I tried to sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers. Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty users. The business customers pay more and expect that to be the case. There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural residential users. Mike At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
OK, in light of that. Have you run the calculations on what a 1 meg, 3 meg and 6 meg stream will use? Remember to count BOTH directions. Our average user is about 8x down vs. up. So a 3 meg incoming video stream also contains what, about 375k of outbound too. As I recall, when I figured our overage plan out back in 1999 (yeah, that's when WE made this decision) it was determined that a t-1 running full out both ways would be able to transfer about 8TB of data. I'm not sure that's right though. Last month we averaged 4.67MBps in and 1.04MBps out at our Ephrata POP. In Odessa it was 3.09MBps in and .5184MBps out (Ephrata has all of the servers). That's a total system wide AVERAGE usage of 7.76 in and 1.5584 out. Our total BYTES in was 1.49 TB in and .33132 TB out. 1.81 TB total. Either the original math was wrong or there can be a LARGE disconnect between average speeds and actual amount of data transferred. Just for kicks lets try it this way. According to a google search there are 2,628,000 seconds in a month. A t-1 can move 192 bytes per second. I make that out to be 504,576,000 Bytes per month one way. Double it for symmetric service and you get 1,009,152,000 about 1 TB per month if running full out. Clearly there can be a disconnect between the SPEEDS people get and the DATA they consume. Go figure. Either way, it takes x amount of hardware to deliver x amount of data to people. We are constantly upgrading our gear so that it'll run just as fast as it can go. We have no pre-built tiers of service. Everything runs wide open. People place themselves into the tiers with their overages (a few business accounts are exceptions to this rule). We only have to bill overages on about 10% of our customer base per month. And it's rarely the same 10%. There are those that always go over and expect the overage bill but I think that's only about 5% or so of our customer base (I'd have to ask Apryl to be sure if anyone cares that much). Laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM? Then mom and dad decide to rent a movie. To me, I am counting on over-selling the bandwidth and that is where the profit is. My dynamic is changing and the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than normal. I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing. I have heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing tiered and/or metered? The questions still stand. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 Fat-fingered from my phone! On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
You've nailed the trick here Mike. What WE have to figure out how to do is move the billing with customer habits. As people move their seats from the TV to the computer we need to move that financial outflow from the video people to us BTW, dollars to donuts if you put in a per bit billing package that's reasonable you'll loose VERY few customers. And most of them will be ones that are costing you far more than they are paying you. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to trim it; I can't. Four phones, national plan, unlimited texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per month, or about $60.00 per phone. I view that as obscene, but also feel somewhat trapped. Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside. We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network every month. If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air. My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total monthly costs. Maybe it is time to rethink the whole paradigm. Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to do the same thing, or I'd lose customers. I tried a tiered service once. My basic contract says 512 kbps. I let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the moment. If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets. When I tried to sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers. Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty users. The business customers pay more and expect that to be the case. There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural residential users. Mike At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Marlon, With all due respect, the math you presented is missing a factor and a bit rough :- Total number of seconds in a Month = 60seconds x 60 min x 24hrs x 30 (or 31) days = 2,592,000 (2,678,400) A TI is rated for 1.5mb/s (or 24 channels of 64K each)= 1536kbps = 1536 x 1024 (bits/sec)= /8 to conert to bytes = 196,864 bytes/sec = /1024 to convert to Kbytes/sec = 192.25 KiloBytes / sec Total possible amount of data tranfer on a T1 in a month = 196,846 x 2,592,000 = /(1024 x 1024) to convert to Mega Bytes = 486632.8125 or 475.227 Giga Bytes. Or 0.464 Tera Bytes in each direction. --- Faisal Imtiaz Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 11:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing OK, in light of that. Have you run the calculations on what a 1 meg, 3 meg and 6 meg stream will use? Remember to count BOTH directions. Our average user is about 8x down vs. up. So a 3 meg incoming video stream also contains what, about 375k of outbound too. As I recall, when I figured our overage plan out back in 1999 (yeah, that's when WE made this decision) it was determined that a t-1 running full out both ways would be able to transfer about 8TB of data. I'm not sure that's right though. Last month we averaged 4.67MBps in and 1.04MBps out at our Ephrata POP. In Odessa it was 3.09MBps in and .5184MBps out (Ephrata has all of the servers). That's a total system wide AVERAGE usage of 7.76 in and 1.5584 out. Our total BYTES in was 1.49 TB in and .33132 TB out. 1.81 TB total. Either the original math was wrong or there can be a LARGE disconnect between average speeds and actual amount of data transferred. Just for kicks lets try it this way. According to a google search there are 2,628,000 seconds in a month. A t-1 can move 192 bytes per second. I make that out to be 504,576,000 Bytes per month one way. Double it for symmetric service and you get 1,009,152,000 about 1 TB per month if running full out. Clearly there can be a disconnect between the SPEEDS people get and the DATA they consume. Go figure. Either way, it takes x amount of hardware to deliver x amount of data to people. We are constantly upgrading our gear so that it'll run just as fast as it can go. We have no pre-built tiers of service. Everything runs wide open. People place themselves into the tiers with their overages (a few business accounts are exceptions to this rule). We only have to bill overages on about 10% of our customer base per month. And it's rarely the same 10%. There are those that always go over and expect the overage bill but I think that's only about 5% or so of our customer base (I'd have to ask Apryl to be sure if anyone cares that much). Laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM? Then mom and dad decide to rent a movie. To me, I am counting on over-selling the bandwidth and that is where the profit is. My dynamic is changing and the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than normal. I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing. I have heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing tiered and/or metered? The questions still stand. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 Fat-fingered from my phone! On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Enjoy it while you can. It's amazing they are still in business! On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: No, my unlimited cell phone plan is only $35/mo (Cricket). I did have to buy the phone though, ($50). On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: Unlimited cell phone? I don't buy it There's a limit, there always is. Also, is your unlimited cell phone program only $40 or $50 per month? If I could get the same $100 to $300 per month for internet that people often pay the cell companies I'd be able to sell them a LOT more service for the same price they are paying now. I could also put in much better hardware. Lets see, 600 subs at an average of $37 per month is $22,200 per month. 600 subs at an average of $150 per month is $90,000 per month (and the same number of people needed). http://www.wirefly.com/learn/wireless_news/jd-power-analyzes-average-cell-phone-bill/ According to JD Power the average cell bill is $77 per month. So 600 subs at an average of $77 per month is $46,200. Still much nicer than my current $27 per month :-). How did we end up in this situation? grin marlon - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
You get what you pay for. On 11/8/09, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know. Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog. It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet pipe(s) at a reasonable price. Guaranteed bandwidth from a WISP is certainly do-able now, and the numbers I've seen in this thread are on the low side. Have you played with the new stuff that can actually deliver 100Mbits per AP? Its stunning. There are still some rough edges in both the firmware and certification, but this is the future. QoS is still an issue of course, the customer will eat whatever we can give them and then some... George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Fantastic discussion folks! This has been constantly on my mind since '97 when I paid $3500/month for a T1. Even more now with video moving to our networks. Marlon is right, proper implementaion is critical. When I started metered billing, I made sure everyone knew and that they had plenty of elbow room in their caps. That way when their usage went up there were no surprises - they knew they had been using it more. We lost only a few subs and they were the ones that ate up the network. Interesting enough, most of our customers fully understood and apprecaited it. They felt as though they werent subsidizing the bandwidth hogs. -RickG On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: You've nailed the trick here Mike. What WE have to figure out how to do is move the billing with customer habits. As people move their seats from the TV to the computer we need to move that financial outflow from the video people to us BTW, dollars to donuts if you put in a per bit billing package that's reasonable you'll loose VERY few customers. And most of them will be ones that are costing you far more than they are paying you. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:09 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to trim it; I can't. Four phones, national plan, unlimited texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per month, or about $60.00 per phone. I view that as obscene, but also feel somewhat trapped. Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside. We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network every month. If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air. My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total monthly costs. Maybe it is time to rethink the whole paradigm. Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to do the same thing, or I'd lose customers. I tried a tiered service once. My basic contract says 512 kbps. I let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the moment. If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets. When I tried to sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers. Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty users. The business customers pay more and expect that to be the case. There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural residential users. Mike At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Travis, I do agree with you that bandwidth eventually becomes less of a concern. I failed to make my point. I was responding to your comment that you have unlimited water which in my mind did not mesh with this discussion. Dont get me wrong, I'm looking for and appreciate your input. At any rate, AFAIK the concern that remains is transport to user so they get what they pay for. Or do you have a magic potion for that too? BTW: The extra calls I get are from upset customers that the network is slow. Then I check it out and find another subscriber running file-sharing, or hogging it up with video, etc. -RickG On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 2:32 AM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: Nope... we pay per MB on our upstream connections... but once you reach a certain mass, your upstream is no longer a concern. Our three upstream connections account for 7% of our total expenses. Time is the most valueable asset you have. If you are having to take even a few extra calls per month from upset customers about doing metered billing, then you have not made any money on them. Spend the time getting new customers rather than fighting with current ones. Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Travis, Thats great for you but that's not the norm for most people and doesnt rebuff my point. I suppose youre getting unlimited bandwidth from your upstream too? -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net t...@ida.net wrote: I have unlimited water in my home. $40 per month. Travis RickG wrote: For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively slow. Not really an apples to apples comparison. In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too! On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net t...@ida.net t...@ida.net t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
This is when I miss Charles Wu on this list. We built a comprehensive spreadsheet together once showing real numbers. Of course that was a long time ago and the numbers are obsolete. Perhaps its time to resurrect it? As Marlon said, there is limited capacity. That statement applies to us in many ways. So, unless you understand the limitations you cant predict QOS to your customers or your financial stability. Think future! The issue here is exponential network usage growth which will continue into the future. AFAIK the only way to combat it is to prepare and that means understand how this affects your business from a technical and financial standpoint. I could be wrong, but considering all factors, I believe WISP's do not have the capabilty to meet the future demand with the all you can eat model (Travis excluded). So, something will have to be done. What, how, and when are the questions that need answering. Dont get me wrong, I have never been a sky is falling type of guy. I just like being proactive. -RickG On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: You get what you pay for. On 11/8/09, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
George, I have not played with the N stuff. Mostly because I need to upgrade my towers. That is in the plans. Which is where this discussion s originating from. Anytime I spend money, I have to confirm it is worthwhile and will represent an ROI. Yes, bandwidth is coming down ever so slowly (here anyways). So, what your saying is that the new equipment + lower bandwidth costs will handle all of our future needs? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know. Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog. It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet pipe(s) at a reasonable price. Guaranteed bandwidth from a WISP is certainly do-able now, and the numbers I've seen in this thread are on the low side. Have you played with the new stuff that can actually deliver 100Mbits per AP? Its stunning. There are still some rough edges in both the firmware and certification, but this is the future. QoS is still an issue of course, the customer will eat whatever we can give them and then some... George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Rick, I'm not nearly brave enough to claim this is going to handle all our future needs, but from what I've see so far its going to help a lot over the next 2-3 years. We've been playing with both the Ubiquiti stuff and the MikroTik stuff for many months now and we're encouraged that there is a future here. We need 5.4 certification, and we need to alter our business model for the Urban stuff to create cells that are no more than a couple of miles radius. We need to identify service areas with enough customer density to justify fibre close to the tower, but isolated enough that 5.x, particularly 5.4, is not going to be overrun in the next few years. There is no doubt that N is more sensitive to interference, at least that is the indication we have from our trials. No such thing as a free lunch I suspect, just like usual. We already have decent Internet fibre prices that will allow a Gigabit-capable tower in a high density area. I understand that everyone has a different environment to compete in, but ours is perhaps unusual in that the Cablecos and Telcos are introducing some pretty draconian bandwidth caps in their post-modern effort to stay profitable without investing in fibre to the premises. This appears to give us an opportunity to circumvent the traditional last mile and take the fight directly to the enemy. Couldn't even have dreamed about this a year ago, but now its looking frighteningly reasonable as a strategy. We do need to figure out how to do QoS properly at high bandwidths, we've been a bit cavalier about that in the past. Once you get up to a realistic 10Mbit or more to the customer on any kind of large scale deployment I think the rules of the game change. Everything you're working with gets bigger, faster and a lot more expensive on the back office end although the front end tower-related costs stay around the levels we are used to. We're going to have to learn a lot about that in a hurry. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing George, I have not played with the N stuff. Mostly because I need to upgrade my towers. That is in the plans. Which is where this discussion s originating from. Anytime I spend money, I have to confirm it is worthwhile and will represent an ROI. Yes, bandwidth is coming down ever so slowly (here anyways). So, what your saying is that the new equipment + lower bandwidth costs will handle all of our future needs? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know. Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog. It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet pipe(s) at a reasonable price. Guaranteed bandwidth from a WISP is certainly do-able now, and the numbers I've seen in this thread are on the low side. Have you played with the new stuff that can actually deliver 100Mbits per AP? Its stunning. There are still some rough edges in both the firmware and certification, but this is the future. QoS is still an issue of course, the customer will eat whatever we can give them and then some... George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
We're going to have to learn a lot about that in a hurry. Thats the way the technology industry has always been in the 30+ years I've been a part of it. You're definitely in a different boat than we are. We're as rural as it gets. Bandwidth is worth more than gold, no density as far as subscribers go, trees hills more trees, its a different animal. Either way, I'm enjoying the topic and the input from everyone. -RickG On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 2:36 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, I'm not nearly brave enough to claim this is going to handle all our future needs, but from what I've see so far its going to help a lot over the next 2-3 years. We've been playing with both the Ubiquiti stuff and the MikroTik stuff for many months now and we're encouraged that there is a future here. We need 5.4 certification, and we need to alter our business model for the Urban stuff to create cells that are no more than a couple of miles radius. We need to identify service areas with enough customer density to justify fibre close to the tower, but isolated enough that 5.x, particularly 5.4, is not going to be overrun in the next few years. There is no doubt that N is more sensitive to interference, at least that is the indication we have from our trials. No such thing as a free lunch I suspect, just like usual. We already have decent Internet fibre prices that will allow a Gigabit-capable tower in a high density area. I understand that everyone has a different environment to compete in, but ours is perhaps unusual in that the Cablecos and Telcos are introducing some pretty draconian bandwidth caps in their post-modern effort to stay profitable without investing in fibre to the premises. This appears to give us an opportunity to circumvent the traditional last mile and take the fight directly to the enemy. Couldn't even have dreamed about this a year ago, but now its looking frighteningly reasonable as a strategy. We do need to figure out how to do QoS properly at high bandwidths, we've been a bit cavalier about that in the past. Once you get up to a realistic 10Mbit or more to the customer on any kind of large scale deployment I think the rules of the game change. Everything you're working with gets bigger, faster and a lot more expensive on the back office end although the front end tower-related costs stay around the levels we are used to. We're going to have to learn a lot about that in a hurry. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing George, I have not played with the N stuff. Mostly because I need to upgrade my towers. That is in the plans. Which is where this discussion s originating from. Anytime I spend money, I have to confirm it is worthwhile and will represent an ROI. Yes, bandwidth is coming down ever so slowly (here anyways). So, what your saying is that the new equipment + lower bandwidth costs will handle all of our future needs? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know. Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog. It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet pipe(s) at a reasonable price. Guaranteed bandwidth from a WISP is certainly do-able now, and the numbers I've seen in this thread are on the low side. Have you played with the new stuff that can actually deliver 100Mbits per AP? Its stunning. There are still some rough edges in both the firmware and certification, but this is the future. QoS is still an issue of course, the customer will eat whatever we can give them and then some... George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home? Travis Microserv Gary Garrett wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Just a side note, the water meters were installed by mandate of the DEQ (Government Agency) They fixed it so the Utilities could not borrow money or apply for grants if they were not metered. With the way our politics are going right now it may not be long before there is a Gov Agency making rules about the Internet. (Read FCC). Travis Johnson wrote: It's been that way for 20+ years in this community (100+ homes). I don't see it changing any time soon. And just like internet, there are heavy water users (neighbors I see with their sprinklers running almost 24 hours per day) and normal users (like me) and light users (the yellow dead grass is the giveaway). You take the average of all and divide the expenses. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it worth installing $1,000 meters on every household in the community? probably not... because then you have to hire a person to check all the meters once a month... and any savings you may have had are gone by paying a salary to a meter reader. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Wisps is wisp-centric. There is no excuse not to support your organization. On Nov 8, 2009, at 4:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote: Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
WISPA appears to be American WISP-centric Ralph. How many members are based outside the USA? What does WISPA do for non-American WISPs other than run a very good public mailing list that provides some decent discussion on the business in general terms? Please take a look at the WISPA web site and list 1 thing on it that is of specific benefit for a WISP outside the US? What percentage of WISPA membership dues are spent on efforts to influence the FCC? I'm not saying any of this is bad, just that the value equation is not the same if you are not based in the US. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Wisps is wisp-centric. There is no excuse not to support your organization. On Nov 8, 2009, at 4:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote: Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Here's some quick numbers off my network: for the last 8 days 71% of customers downloaded less than 1 GByte of Data. The top 10% all exceeded 2 GB The top 5% all exceeded 4.4 GB The top 1% exceeded 10 GB Marco On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote: Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one more way we can advertise and win against them.  Tired of counting your bits and bytes?  We're unlimited  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote:  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
When browsing DSLREPORTS forums, one can see that it has become a game for some: Who can download the most in a month. With some high speed cable operator forums, you can see Terabytes++ beating terabytes+ as useless garbage is downloaded for the game. It's like leaving your water hose on to see who can fill a lake first. Perhaps that may point to a solution. Geeze.. . . . J o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Marco Coelho Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Here's some quick numbers off my network: for the last 8 days 71% of customers downloaded less than 1 GByte of Data. The top 10% all exceeded 2 GB The top 5% all exceeded 4.4 GB The top 1% exceeded 10 GB Marco On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote: Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. Â They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Â Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Â Perception is everything. Â Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. Â I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. Â I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. Â If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. Â We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. Â People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Â Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. Â This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. Â We have local sales, support and installations. Â We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. Â If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. Â But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Â Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. Â We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
What country are you in George? marlon - Original Message - From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized all you can eat service company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. normal use) you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the big guys do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on their unlimited-everything service. Just my 2 cents Jayson On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for $9.95/mo extra. People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from month to month. Would you want that at your own home
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
We've tried to work with Canadian WISPs in the past. There may even be a mailing list for it. We've also helped write filings for industry Canada in the past. marlon - Original Message - From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing WISPA appears to be American WISP-centric Ralph. How many members are based outside the USA? What does WISPA do for non-American WISPs other than run a very good public mailing list that provides some decent discussion on the business in general terms? Please take a look at the WISPA web site and list 1 thing on it that is of specific benefit for a WISP outside the US? What percentage of WISPA membership dues are spent on efforts to influence the FCC? I'm not saying any of this is bad, just that the value equation is not the same if you are not based in the US. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:49 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Wisps is wisp-centric. There is no excuse not to support your organization. On Nov 8, 2009, at 4:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote: Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs. If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Wow... Verizon is screwing you... my family has 5 lines, 1200 minutes shared (national with carryover), unlimited text mesages and pics and I pay $165 per month total (including all taxes, surcharges, etc.). That's with ATT even. Travis Microserv Mike wrote: There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to trim it; I can't. Four phones, national plan, unlimited texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per month, or about $60.00 per phone. I view that as obscene, but also feel somewhat trapped. Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside. We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network every month. If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air. My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total monthly costs. Maybe it is time to rethink the whole paradigm. Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to do the same thing, or I'd lose customers. I tried a tiered service once. My basic contract says 512 kbps. I let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the moment. If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets. When I tried to sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers. Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty users. The business customers pay more and expect that to be the case. There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural residential users. Mike At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in. I find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can be delivered. BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market that actually makes money (bottom line). On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and even tested it for a bit. Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess. I, myself, being a fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan. I have unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc. If I could pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too! We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could activate it at anytime. We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just didn't understand the concept. People aren't used to it--most people got online when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages. Nobody knows what ISDN with 300 hours is. We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo. This makes us the fastest in the area, and the cheapest. We have local sales, support and installations. We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps. If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. "normal use") you'll always see the 12Mbps. But once you fire up a torrent or Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your guaranteed minimum. Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going to 6Mbps. We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this structure. I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans. Just one more way we can advertise and win against them. "Tired of counting your bits and bytes? We're unlimited" Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded with customers on
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Eric, What type of appliance are you using to meter this usage? I have the same problem here. Joe - Original Message From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:56:03 AM Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I use multiple MS IAS radius servers logging to a SQL server with accounting on. I have already built a customer portal to display billing info for customers, and I just added a section that shows their current usage. Each time a customer views a page, it will also search the database and look for overages and email out reminders if they reach the 75% mark on their cap automatically. All has been custom built, but if you are using RADIUS with accounting, it is a snap. Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Joe Miller Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 8:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Eric, What type of appliance are you using to meter this usage? I have the same problem here. Joe - Original Message From: Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sat, November 7, 2009 6:56:03 AM Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
With the proper setup the network complexity does not change. Why would I want to give up additional revenue? Travis Johnson wrote: 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.53/2486 - Release Date: 11/07/09 07:38:00 -- Scott Reed Sr. Systems Engineer GAB Midwest 1-800-363-1544 x4000 Cell: 260-273-7239 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
That is true, but depending on your business model, bandwidth based pricing will need to be implemented eventually. Why turn away the money if they are willing to pay? If they are not, they will go elsewhere. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere." So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. Travis Microserv Scott Reed wrote: With the proper setup the network complexity does not change. Why would I want to give up additional revenue? Travis Johnson wrote: 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.53/2486 - Release Date: 11/07/09 07:38:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
So have you tried it or are you doing it now that you are saying it is a pain in the rear? Eric From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com mailto:ecrog...@precisionds.com wrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Rick, I don't think its up to Netflix to pay us. They in turn would have to raise their prices which would further complicate things. We need to make sure we get a fair price from our customers that reflects our costs and hopefully profits. So the customer pays Netflix and us for the movie they downloaded. We are moving very quickly to usage based billing too btw. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I'm with Travis. If 90% of your customers cost $1 a month and 10% of your customers cost $1 a month it only makes sense to trim the fat. Every single month Vonage contacts the top 3% heaviest users and tells them they're a) raising their bill or b) gone (I was told it's the customer's choice). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:32 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Rick, did you have a self-serve portal where your customers could check ongoing usage? We are implementing IPtrack, same as Marlon. Brandon will build a self-service portal for us. We are also going to implement something called 'Moonlighting', where we don't count bandwidth from Midnight to 6am in an effort to move some heavy traffic onto the dead period on our network. Makes tiered pricing easier to swallow... What I would really like to do is allow a speed increase at the same time, to give people a taste of our more advanced services. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make that happen in a PPPoE environment without forcing people to disconnect and re-login. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
In PPPOE you should be able to just kill the connection and the client should reestablish a moment afterward. I know it works this way with MT PPPOE server/client. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, did you have a self-serve portal where your customers could check ongoing usage? We are implementing IPtrack, same as Marlon. Brandon will build a self-service portal for us. We are also going to implement something called 'Moonlighting', where we don't count bandwidth from Midnight to 6am in an effort to move some heavy traffic onto the dead period on our network. Makes tiered pricing easier to swallow... What I would really like to do is allow a speed increase at the same time, to give people a taste of our more advanced services. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make that happen in a PPPoE environment without forcing people to disconnect and re-login. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
In addition, their costs are limited by speed availability. To explain, you may not be able to use their service everywhere and when you can the usage is limited to just a handful of apps and the speed of their connection. In our case, the customer has multiple computers and devices on our network running most or all of the time with a wide variety of apps that utilize a much higher speed connection 24x7. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Gary Garrett ggarr...@nidaho.net wrote: You sound like the cell phone company. I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the month while the cellular guys charge by the minute. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the phone calls from users that say My computer wasn't even turned on during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere. So, even that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you have now... does the same solution work? Probably not. The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra income each month, even if they don't use it. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I mostly agree, it was really just a thought. But, to support my argument for I point to the telco agreements where they exchange fees for each others networks. At any rate, it will probably never happen. With that said, the end user always pays, its just a matter of how. I'm just searching for a proper way for them to pay for their services. It just became more difficult in the entitlement mentality world where people think everything should be free. On a positive note, at least bandwidth is getting cheaper. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, I don't think its up to Netflix to pay us. They in turn would have to raise their prices which would further complicate things. We need to make sure we get a fair price from our customers that reflects our costs and hopefully profits. So the customer pays Netflix and us for the movie they downloaded. We are moving very quickly to usage based billing too btw. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com wrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
That's interesting. So in theory we could just script a 'flicker' at the APs at Midnight, and another 'flicker' at 6am to get the settings to change at the client... Good idea! Thanks Josh. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In PPPOE you should be able to just kill the connection and the client should reestablish a moment afterward. I know it works this way with MT PPPOE server/client. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, did you have a self-serve portal where your customers could check ongoing usage? We are implementing IPtrack, same as Marlon. Brandon will build a self-service portal for us. We are also going to implement something called 'Moonlighting', where we don't count bandwidth from Midnight to 6am in an effort to move some heavy traffic onto the dead period on our network. Makes tiered pricing easier to swallow... What I would really like to do is allow a speed increase at the same time, to give people a taste of our more advanced services. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make that happen in a PPPoE environment without forcing people to disconnect and re-login. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Yup. I used to work for Bell Mobility in Toronto in the business systems side. We had a standing joke that a telco is a billing system surrounded by a few phone lines. A good few years ago some telcos, Cinci Bell springs to mind, actually generated more profits from renting out their billing systems and expertise than they made from phone service. Its pretty easy to overcomplicate the billing arrangements if you're not careful. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I mostly agree, it was really just a thought. But, to support my argument for I point to the telco agreements where they exchange fees for each others networks. At any rate, it will probably never happen. With that said, the end user always pays, its just a matter of how. I'm just searching for a proper way for them to pay for their services. It just became more difficult in the entitlement mentality world where people think everything should be free. On a positive note, at least bandwidth is getting cheaper. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, I don't think its up to Netflix to pay us. They in turn would have to raise their prices which would further complicate things. We need to make sure we get a fair price from our customers that reflects our costs and hopefully profits. So the customer pays Netflix and us for the movie they downloaded. We are moving very quickly to usage based billing too btw. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com wrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
That would work. The only thing you'd need to test is the clients you're using. It would be up to the client to sense being disconnected and attempt a (re?)connection. You can charge them for that but then you have to worry about customers getting itchy F-U fingers. The DSL/Cable/alternative guys don't do this to me! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:58 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: That's interesting. So in theory we could just script a 'flicker' at the APs at Midnight, and another 'flicker' at 6am to get the settings to change at the client... Good idea! Thanks Josh. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In PPPOE you should be able to just kill the connection and the client should reestablish a moment afterward. I know it works this way with MT PPPOE server/client. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, did you have a self-serve portal where your customers could check ongoing usage? We are implementing IPtrack, same as Marlon. Brandon will build a self-service portal for us. We are also going to implement something called 'Moonlighting', where we don't count bandwidth from Midnight to 6am in an effort to move some heavy traffic onto the dead period on our network. Makes tiered pricing easier to swallow... What I would really like to do is allow a speed increase at the same time, to give people a taste of our more advanced services. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make that happen in a PPPoE environment without forcing people to disconnect and re-login. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I've felt this way many times but I always go back to my business model which says We are in business to provide internet access for profit according to our posted rates under the terms spelled out in our AUP and the contract between (us) the company and the subscriber. Furthermore, my business model says we will grow the business at every opportunity that allows for profit. Our AUP and contract says we can allow or deny access upon our descretion. I save that for the pain in the butt customers that have unrealistic expectations. Our posted rates allow for custom service package pricing. Wiith that said, I ask are we in busienss to sell internet access or not? According to the above I am. Otherwise, why am I here? Therefore, there is a service package for everyone. Its just a question if they can afford it or not. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: I'm with Travis. If 90% of your customers cost $1 a month and 10% of your customers cost $1 a month it only makes sense to trim the fat. Every single month Vonage contacts the top 3% heaviest users and tells them they're a) raising their bill or b) gone (I was told it's the customer's choice). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:32 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I'm totally for metered billing however the customers have all been spoiled with one price access for years now. To not alienate the customer, would it be possible to have the current one price for a particular speed tier with unlimited MB at that speed, set the high use sites down in the list of priority so that they don't suck up the bandwidth during high use times, causing buffering of course, but then offer a Multi Media upgrade package to move their high use sites up in the list of priorities? Or even to kick in an added charge per use of certain sites? Such like, they pay 39 bucks for access but Hulu and Netflix aren't given high priority. They want to use them, add the Multi-Media package for an extra 10 bucks a month or a per use charge, every time they request a download from a listed site they get hit with a $1.00 charge added to their invoice for that day. Not per request, just for the day. Pay the buck, watch Hulu all day, sort of thing. I'm not a script Guru but I've thought about this for awhile. I've also thought if the dead raccoons along the road were placed there by other raccoons to make it look like an accident. I work alone for a reason. Bob- -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I mostly agree, it was really just a thought. But, to support my argument for I point to the telco agreements where they exchange fees for each others networks. At any rate, it will probably never happen. With that said, the end user always pays, its just a matter of how. I'm just searching for a proper way for them to pay for their services. It just became more difficult in the entitlement mentality world where people think everything should be free. On a positive note, at least bandwidth is getting cheaper. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, I don't think its up to Netflix to pay us. They in turn would have to raise their prices which would further complicate things. We need to make sure we get a fair price from our customers that reflects our costs and hopefully profits. So the customer pays Netflix and us for the movie they downloaded. We are moving very quickly to usage based billing too btw. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com wrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
I think the better question is Are we in business to sell Internet access or sell Internet access while making money? As far as I know, there is no comparable service to Internet in terms of progression where minimal bandwidth capabilities soon become enormous capabilities and services exceeding such capabilities meanwhile end user costs never followed the trend. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 3:08 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: I've felt this way many times but I always go back to my business model which says We are in business to provide internet access for profit according to our posted rates under the terms spelled out in our AUP and the contract between (us) the company and the subscriber. Furthermore, my business model says we will grow the business at every opportunity that allows for profit. Our AUP and contract says we can allow or deny access upon our descretion. I save that for the pain in the butt customers that have unrealistic expectations. Our posted rates allow for custom service package pricing. Wiith that said, I ask are we in busienss to sell internet access or not? According to the above I am. Otherwise, why am I here? Therefore, there is a service package for everyone. Its just a question if they can afford it or not. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: I'm with Travis. If 90% of your customers cost $1 a month and 10% of your customers cost $1 a month it only makes sense to trim the fat. Every single month Vonage contacts the top 3% heaviest users and tells them they're a) raising their bill or b) gone (I was told it's the customer's choice). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:32 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
George, Considering the resources back then, we were lucky to have the concept work. I left that company in 2000 so I dont know what became of the system. The next ISP we implemented online billing which included usage but it was part of a larger system that I had little technical input to. I would think this should be much easier to implement now though being this is 2009 going on 2010! I'm excited to see we are talking about it since its bound to be a part of our lives. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, did you have a self-serve portal where your customers could check ongoing usage? We are implementing IPtrack, same as Marlon. Brandon will build a self-service portal for us. We are also going to implement something called 'Moonlighting', where we don't count bandwidth from Midnight to 6am in an effort to move some heavy traffic onto the dead period on our network. Makes tiered pricing easier to swallow... What I would really like to do is allow a speed increase at the same time, to give people a taste of our more advanced services. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make that happen in a PPPoE environment without forcing people to disconnect and re-login. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
Very good point Josh, it would be unfortunately to have a pro-consumer initiative backfire because of a flaky implementation. I need to think on this some more. It may be enough to start with just to ignore bandwidth used during the Moonlighting window. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 3:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing That would work. The only thing you'd need to test is the clients you're using. It would be up to the client to sense being disconnected and attempt a (re?)connection. You can charge them for that but then you have to worry about customers getting itchy F-U fingers. The DSL/Cable/alternative guys don't do this to me! Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:58 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: That's interesting. So in theory we could just script a 'flicker' at the APs at Midnight, and another 'flicker' at 6am to get the settings to change at the client... Good idea! Thanks Josh. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In PPPOE you should be able to just kill the connection and the client should reestablish a moment afterward. I know it works this way with MT PPPOE server/client. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, did you have a self-serve portal where your customers could check ongoing usage? We are implementing IPtrack, same as Marlon. Brandon will build a self-service portal for us. We are also going to implement something called 'Moonlighting', where we don't count bandwidth from Midnight to 6am in an effort to move some heavy traffic onto the dead period on our network. Makes tiered pricing easier to swallow... What I would really like to do is allow a speed increase at the same time, to give people a taste of our more advanced services. Unfortunately I have no idea how to make that happen in a PPPoE environment without forcing people to disconnect and re-login. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Travis, I was operating on the premise that you said to send them to DSL or cable. Even with that, I did not have that experience. We sent the invoices out with a copy of their usage report and it was rarely, if ever questioned. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Travis Johnson t...@ida.net wrote: And deal with the extra phone calls each month from customers that claim they didn't use that much. :( Travis Microserv RickG wrote: Many of you know this is not that hard. Back in 1997 I had an Allot box that gave me the numbers. All I did was pull the report and bill accordingly. The hard part would be integrating it with a billing system so it does it automatically. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:56 AM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com ecrog...@precisionds.comwrote: We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding the network. Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your customers responses? What are your tiers? Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy? We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the letter saying we are doing it and why. Eric Rogers Precision Data Solutions, LLC (317) 831-3000 x200 WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
When I worked at ATT Wireless, we had the same jokel There is where I agree with Travis on this subject. If your not careful, you will generate phone calls and the cure will be worse then the illness. RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 3:04 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Yup. I used to work for Bell Mobility in Toronto in the business systems side. We had a standing joke that a telco is a billing system surrounded by a few phone lines. A good few years ago some telcos, Cinci Bell springs to mind, actually generated more profits from renting out their billing systems and expertise than they made from phone service. Its pretty easy to overcomplicate the billing arrangements if you're not careful. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing I mostly agree, it was really just a thought. But, to support my argument for I point to the telco agreements where they exchange fees for each others networks. At any rate, it will probably never happen. With that said, the end user always pays, its just a matter of how. I'm just searching for a proper way for them to pay for their services. It just became more difficult in the entitlement mentality world where people think everything should be free. On a positive note, at least bandwidth is getting cheaper. -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:34 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.cawrote: Rick, I don't think its up to Netflix to pay us. They in turn would have to raise their prices which would further complicate things. We need to make sure we get a fair price from our customers that reflects our costs and hopefully profits. So the customer pays Netflix and us for the movie they downloaded. We are moving very quickly to usage based billing too btw. George -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 2:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing In the past, l worked for two electric companies. Their business models were dependant on meters. As far as internet access, Compuserve and AOL had the right idea from the start. Instead entrepanuers took advantage of their weakness at the time. What we are now seeing is the downside of the $50/month all you can eat business model. When usage was low due to less apps, it worked fine but were now seeing exponential growth of usage. Besides that, one thing we (ISP's) are really missing, are agreements between each other for payment of access to our networks. For instance, the phone companies pay each other for access to each others networks. I realize this is very complex but shouldnt Netflix (or their provider) pay us for utilziation of our networks? -RickG On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Eric Rogers ecrog...@precisionds.com wrote: I do agree with you and that works if there are other options. One customer who was downloading 160G, came from DSL and moved into this neighborhood and now wants high speed where we are the only option. It is only a matter of time before others are using Netflix and others. They come in all gaming consoles now. Why not have the customers pay for upgrades? If there is a high demand for services, the demand drives growth; or fees stifle demand. Maybe my logic is flawed, but if 5% of the customer base is straining the network, shouldn't they pay more? Eric -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 12:22 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing 10% of your customers will use 90% of your resources. Direct that 10% customer base to cable or DSL and stop worrying about adding complexity to your network. Travis Microserv Chuck Profito wrote: Marlon does this and smiles every time he signs a Bandwidth Hog! -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they get charged the overage. Netflix is getting out of control and I don't want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally. I think they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new applications. I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share
